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I’m tinkering with a list that uses 24 raiders in an outrider. Similar to what Evan Stump came second with at a GT last month.

I have a tournament in 3 weeks and need to lock down a list.

I had an Armiger spam list but there are a couple of players going that will counter that perfectly. T7 folds like paper and they can remove 4+ a turn from range

I’m wondering if backlining a Castellan with cold eradication and giving him RR1 using knight of the cog is a substitute for Raven using order of companions stratagem.

What I’ve found is if I throw forward 2 bigger knights behind waves of dogs, not all armies want to shoot the Castellan early on. Perhaps this means that saving 3CP for the raven strat can be used on rotating Castellan shields if need be. I’ve been finding he is more vulnerable getting melee’d more often than not in the current times rather than shot. And if an army can kill him at range they can do it in a single turn regardless

So maybe not spending 6CP on rotate, more likely 3.

I’m actually going to try out my beloved household that I used to play. And take 2 crusaders with him as house Taranis. Stick 2+ save on one and 4++ against shoot on the other.

Enginseer sits next to the Castellan and I could maybe stick a shroudpsalm on the Castellan if the need requires. Then against AP 2 shooting everyone has a 4+

This likely won’t be very competitive but I have 3 beautiful painted knights(commission from a while ago) and I get to play with my favourite Admech unit (the dogs)

What do you think?

The event I’m playing at will be a reduced numbers GT. so it’s going to be a bit different. The advantage is I know a 3rd of the people going and play them regularly lol

I'm afraid I don't think it'll work. Cold Eradication and re-roll 1s isn't even close to a replacement for Companions, statistically. As well, Rotating for 3CP just isn't worth it; going from 5+ to 4+ is a 50% damage reduction, so Ion Bulwark beats out every Warlord trait for a Dominus class.

Unfortunately, I think the Castellan isn't quite good enough on its own. But it turns into a menace with all its relevant upgrades: Ion Bulwark, Wrath of Cawl, and Companions are too efficient to give up. There's just not an argument for building it any other way.

I suppose there's an interesting argument for running multiple houses in the same detachment. All you lose is the Tradition bonus (which for Raven is nice but not essential), but you gain access to specific relics, traits, and stratagems. That does also incentivize Free Blades, since there's no extra opportunity cost.

In fact, you could give your two other Knights ObSec! One Mechanicus Freeblade with Sworn to Quest, and the other an Imperialis with Banner of Macharius Triumphant. The burdens Impetuous Nature and Weary Machine Spirit generally don't do anything.

Since the Imperialis Knight is taking the 1CP relic, the Mechanicus Freeblade is taking a 1CP Warlord trait. The House of the Imperialis Knight only matters for the stratagem, unless you're willing to pay 2CP for it (or decide the Freeblade doesn't need it).

The Imperialis stratagem options really do suck. Since you get +1 to advance and charge, you could capitalize on that by taking a Gallant and planning to Full Throttle. In that case, you would take Terryn for the potential to fight twice. Alternatively, a Cadmus Crusader provides some anti-deepstrike.

You'd end up with something like:

Super Heavy Detachment
Raven Castellan, Bulwark, Cawl's Wrath [Warlord]
Mechanicus Freeblade Crusader, Cunning Commander [-0CP]
Cadmus Crusader, Banner of Macharius [-1CP]

AdMech Spearhead -3CP
Enginseer
3x8 Raiders

I do like the mixed-house idea. ObSec is just huge now.

Now that’s an interesting idea. I hadn’t thought about obsec. I’ll have to try that out in a game.

I do fancy giving my 12 Armiger list a go as well.

You guys been getting games in recently?

Are people still not using Valiants? I kinda figured with smaller boards they may see some play, plus they can wreck marines. I'm looking at House Terryn for some charging shenanigans and getting stuck in hard and fast. Probably with Wardens so you can shoot in close combat.

At the start of 9th I considered trying a Terryn list with the core of valiant with relic flamer and 4++, gallant with landstrider and 2+ save. Then a paladin with the relic battlecannon.

I never fleshed it out past that but those 3 sounded fun.

 Ideasweasel wrote:
At the start of 9th I considered trying a Terryn list with the core of valiant with relic flamer and 4++, gallant with landstrider and 2+ save. Then a paladin with the relic battlecannon.

I never fleshed it out past that but those 3 sounded fun.

In 8th I actually had a lot of fun with a list that had.....3 Gallants, 2 Helverins, and 1 valiant. I wasn't winning tournaments but Most opponents didnt know what to do with them and it had a fair amount of CP.

I've been having some good synergy with Rad Saturated, Luminary Suffusion Sulphurhounds, Moiraxes with Volkite and Claw, and a Valiant.

Sulphurhounds are fast and can use their -1T to everything within 3" very easily which is a perfect set up for the relatively low strengthed Moirax firepower, and the Valiant conflag cannon/siege cannons.

Moiraxs have also been very good against Gravis armored Marines, sure they have no ap on the flamer but each fail is a dead Gravis. And the mortal wound on Volkite makes their two damage weapon feel a bit like a three damage weapon. They aren't great in combat and can be bogged down by hordes, hence the Sulphurhounds.

Valiant is the go to Dominus class Knight in my opinion, he wants to be center board which is what 9th is all about, he gets a bad rap for a reason I have yet to see. With the Sulphurhounds around he wounds significantly easier on those pesky T7 targets which are EVERYWHERE.

All of the Knights are Taranis, it helps the Moiraxes stick around, they really are quite tanky because you can put a good number of them on the table. Couple that with a Necromechanic Enginseer from AdMech+Mechanicus Oath and you can heal any Knight 5 wounds per turn.

Great thing too is everything in the list apart from the Vanguard can shoot into combat, being either a Vehicle or Pistol.

Played pre codex:

Imperial Fists, with nine Eradicators

Space Wolves, six Eradicators

Ultramarines with six Eradicators and grav drop pod

Black Templar with six Eradicators

Post Codex:

Space Wolvesx2, six Eradicators a time

Non Space Marines:

Drukhari

Eldar

Nurgle Daemons+Tzeentch flame daemons, GUO, plaguebearer spam, nurglings, 8 beasts of Nurgle, etc.

Won all of the games so far, was tabled by the Ultramarines list but won on points. Still playing to lose, and the list needs more testing before I can see if it is truly viable.

Also I realized that Nurgle Daemons HATE Moiraxes because of the Rad Cleanser. I only lost a single Armiger and my Enginseer throughout the entire game while tabling my opponent. Rad Cleansers can be scary against the right targets.

Rad Saturated Forgeworld Outrider

Enginseer, -1CP Mechanicus Locum, Warlord- Necromechanic

2x 5man Vanguard

3x 7man Sulphurhounds

Taranis Super Heavy Detachment

1x Knight Valiant, Warlord, Helm Dominatus, Iron Bulwark

1x 3man Moirax, Rad Cleanser, Volkite Veuglaire

1x 2man Moirax, Rad Cleanser, Volkite Veuglaire

Now that's interesting. That's why I like this game, you can fine tune your niche and end up with something different that works well. That being said, I ran the math and was surprised how similar the Valiant was to the Castellan (and that's a bad thing).

Against T7 3+, the Valiant does a total of ~27 average damage compared to the Castellan's ~28. The big issue is that about half the Valiant's damage comes from 12" range weapons. Unfortunately, the Valiant isn't especially better at killing any target. Against Primaris, the Valiant is worse than the Castellan still; its arm weapons kill 4.7 Marines compared to the Castellan's 5.1. The Valiant actually performs worse against hordes too because Castellan's blast weapons kick in for 10.0 kills while the Valiant weapons cap out at 9.2 average kills.

The Valiant is always slightly worse than the Castellan despite costing the same and having 75% worse weapon range.

Even with the -1T from Rad Saturated, the Valiant's total damage against T7(6) 3+ is only 1 point higher than the Castellan's. Likewise, against Primaris the Valiant only kills 1 more Marine than the Castellan.

So, if you just straight swapped the Dominus class and changed nothing else, you'd lose about 3% damage output and quadruple your range. If the Valiant is ever out of range with even a single gun, then a Castellan would have done more damage that game.

That all being said, the Rad Saturation does impressive things for the Moirax. It helps both the important T4 and T7 breakpoints. However, I'd swap the Volkite to the Graviton. They both deal 3.2 wounds (including mortals) to T4(3) 3+, compared to 2.7 without Rad Saturation (a 20% increase). However, the Graviton deals 3.9 wounds to T7(6) 3+ compared to the Volkite's 2 (the Rad Saturation is a 50% damage increase). The Volkite is marginally better against smaller infantry, but the rest of your list is Sulphurhounds so it's redundant.

Im having mixed results just now with anything I test.

Admech seems a hard counter just now. 2 friends had a game the other day and the Admech player nearly removed 2 chaos knights in his first turn

Not much chance to come back from that. Listening to a recent YouTube channel (tabletop tactics) has me hopeful that GW is at least vaguely aware of some of the issues

This is what I plan to test when I'm allowed to game again

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/793209.page#10962583

Can you talk us through your choices. What made you pick T-rex?

OK so basic strategy is FW knights excepting volkite move 15" charge+1" and attempt 8" charge T1 (rerolling the castigator)

the slower canis rex and the two hellhounds and volkite moirax go for their objectives

The sentinel manticore and tankcommander go one a peice to the backfield objectives

Other than the sentinel every model is atleast 11W T7 3+ so enemy weapons that are S6 and under are not going to have efficient targets.

Stormstriders - I can't mechanicus my damage away and this boosts my speed giving my knights an 8" rather than 9" charge if my opponents on the line lets the moirax rad potentially hit t1 and negates movement degrading

Frontline fighters +1 Ap within 12 where most of my knights will be is strong on the castigator volkite and claws rad

OK so units

Well originally I was looking at the knight preceptor with the enginwar strat in a close range knight list the las impulsor now outperforms a thermal cannon but with more flexibility. With the three armigers the aura and cost effectiveness seemed good. However it has the drawback that it encourages my knights to block when I often want them to spread out more which means that the aura isn't as frequently used as it first appears

Canis loses the aura, the ironstorm the relic and warlord trait stormstriders and frontline fighter and gains a burden.

So what does he gain well +1BS making him the best antitank knight (as he can benefit from the knight preceptor strat as he has the keywords). With the +1BS more than offsetting the +1AP within 12 the Preceptor would have

+1 WS and a relic gauntlet (Pretty much the paragon gauntlet but with higher variance) But with better feat and less degrading (also great for fighting when it dies)

A dude when he dies

Canis benefits from the imperialis +1 to advance and charge so ends up 1" slower with degrading movement

RR1s vs units with 10+Models situational but with his 2+BS meansan Avg 7hits S6 AP2 dream when you use it

A free reroll per battle round not to be sniffed at

He also saves me 2 CP as I'm not paying for the extra relic/warlord trait as I would on a preceptor

He has the burden but it only effects him 28% of the time shooting at the closest model on to is a draw back after T1 you can often mitigate this by position correctly or killing the closest unit with something else and he has a gun profile to target anything.

So yes there are some drawbacks over the preceptor but he gains from being a killing machine and being slower than the other knights he probably isn't charging t1

The castigator is a Warden with a better profile 4 extra shots and a more consistent/better CC weapon its going into CC so a 2+ armour save and -1 to be hit in CC give it that extra survivability and on the rare occasion its ccd by a knight or monster reducing there attacks is a bonus. Now considering its a 15" move we have a 27" T1 16 shots6 ap3 2 dam not bad in a marine meta

Moirax claw/grav debated with warglaive in CC the moiraxs outperform vs large targets and the warglaives vs small although moiraxs can heroically intervene. Grav is some nice anti marine particularly vs 3 W models or light vehicles again it jostles with the warglaive but its edges it in the current meta

The volkite yes its marginally less effective than the lightning lock but... I had the parts left over and the difference in performance is marginal and I feel I have enough forgeworld knights

As to AM

The custom traits give them rerole one if the dice for each weapon when determine number of shots benefitting everything except the sentinel and built in wound regeneration which is always a bonus


The manticore is broken right now with its support ace giving it a profile of 2d6 S10 Ap2 3Dam no los great for a backfield model.

The tank commander again can absolutely nuke a vehicle as you can strat it to 12shots 3+ rerolling 1s S8 AP3 D2 and it has the range to sit on an objective

The sentinel is cheap and gives a 3rd unit to stick on an objective and sure 6W T6 isn't that tough but considering its nonexistent firepower the enemies antitank should be directed elsewhere.

That leaves the 2 hellhounds - in short the list needed more screen clearance and 12" move 16" range their pretty effective 2d6 shots s6 ap1 d1 and able to rerollW/ignore cover with strats at only 130 pts for 11W T7 3+sv points efficient (and the Multimelta is a bonus. Also while the hellhounds will be mid table and are vulnerable to melee they do have the generosity to explode on a 4+

Interesting write up. BS2 could be pretty clutch. I played a game this evening and whiffed with two crusaders. It was pretty funny how badly it went.

I’m not sure specifically why but they just feel overcosted. Or my rolls are terrible. Gatling gun moving to 3 damage maybe higher AP and a more consistent thermal Cannon would be useful

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Interesting write up. BS2 could be pretty clutch. I played a game this evening and whiffed with two crusaders. It was pretty funny how badly it went.

I’m not sure specifically why but they just feel overcosted. Or my rolls are terrible. Gatling gun moving to 3 damage maybe higher AP and a more consistent thermal Cannon would be useful

Gatlin Gun needs less reason to be an auto-take IMO. I think it's fine pretty much exactly as it is, and it's still often regarded as the best option.

I could see the Battle Cannon getting 3 damage (and blast... ), but given I havent actually seen anyone running anything that isnt a Crusader or a Warden (or a castellan pre FAQ) I think we need more reason to *not* take the gatlin guns...

Just my 2 cents...

Maybe it’s just me. I find more often than not I can point a crusader at something and it does sweet FA. Maybe a couple of wounds. When facing T7 and a minus to hit maybe a -1 damage the Gatling gun feels pretty silly.

It’s probably to do with what armies I’m facing in my area but I never feel the Gatling gun does much. I’m also finding thermal cannons getting 1-2 shots and then failing to wound or bouncing off an invulnerable save happens too consistently to be useful.

Maybe it’s me, maybe it’s maybeline

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Maybe it’s just me. I find more often than not I can point a crusader at something and it does sweet FA. Maybe a couple of wounds. When facing T7 and a minus to hit maybe a -1 damage the Gatling gun feels pretty silly.

It’s probably to do with what armies I’m facing in my area but I never feel the Gatling gun does much. I’m also finding thermal cannons getting 1-2 shots and then failing to wound or bouncing off an invulnerable save happens too consistently to be useful.

Maybe it’s me, maybe it’s maybeline

Heh, good meme

Unreliable melta cannons are absolutely something I wanna change. I'd like to be able to run a pair of Errants without sacrificing any kinda reliability.

I just find Gatling are universally the best option at my local, even in the tournements. Granted, we don't have an awful lot of negatives to damage, so maybe thats a factor, it's probably not just you.

I just want options man, thats all. I could see them getting a range buff, tbf, maybe going up to 48", because as I remamber, Knights have nothing between 36" and 72" currently?

 IHateNids wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Interesting write up. BS2 could be pretty clutch. I played a game this evening and whiffed with two crusaders. It was pretty funny how badly it went.

I’m not sure specifically why but they just feel overcosted. Or my rolls are terrible. Gatling gun moving to 3 damage maybe higher AP and a more consistent thermal Cannon would be useful

Gatlin Gun needs less reason to be an auto-take IMO. I think it's fine pretty much exactly as it is, and it's still often regarded as the best option.

I could see the Battle Cannon getting 3 damage (and blast... ), but given I havent actually seen anyone running anything that isnt a Crusader or a Warden (or a castellan pre FAQ) I think we need more reason to *not* take the gatlin guns...

Just my 2 cents...

The Warden gattleing is broken if you can strat the problem is you need to be to close to get there T1 and thats not reliable enough for me but a good consideration.

The crusader like the valiant and castellan struggle with points/W. The crusader is great if your going first and often squished if your going second but that squish represents 25% of your army compared to 20% in a preceptor. The thermal cannon is superb in the mirror but its off meta atleast in my area astartes and sob represent the bulk of armies. Conversely the battle cannon is less efficient overall and makes the point/W situation worse.

Its partly why I settled on a castigator. I mean its a gattleing cannon with 4 extra shots its cheaper than a crusader with more wounds.

I also think you have to pick a strategy for your knights and by that i mean are you trying to wipe your opponent in which case shooting efficiency and krast is the primary consideration or are you trying to win the mission in which case I want to block my opponents in so you can outscored turns 1-3 which means getting in close and that means melee knights and a more durable build is optimal

Range wise not without choosing fury of mars relic or looking at forgeworld stuff.

I feel you on the errant front. I’d love to run those guys but have seen them whiff. Even the preceptor using the auto 6 shots at 18” whiffs. I must just be a blind commander

Maybe a minimum shots or damage on the thermals is the way to go. I reckon If my local area was more horde friendly and we had Orks etc I’d love the Gatling cannons more. One thing I wanted for knights was a way to mitigate being alpha struck from the likes of Admech//guard/tau/other shooting armies

Would a diverting power to shields stratagem to mitigate damage be fluffy? Maybe at the cost of reducing damage output the next turn or something.

Playing on a board with obscuring terrain and getting melted through windows without reply is a bit rage inducing lol. I played a game versus a friends ironhands leviathan dread and friends yesterday. I was pretty confident a Raven Castellan and 2 crusaders could kill it so I penned his army in his deployment zone by scout moving the Admech dogs.

I went first and pointed my army at his leviathan and it survived with 2 wounds. It turned round ignoring the fact it was crippled and removed 20 wounds from the closest crusader. Now sure I probably should have kept back 33” and played it a bit slower but you would think my entire army should be able to remove a single dread.

Could you imagine if we had access to some of the toys marines have. What I’d give to get -1 damage, be able to interact with terrain at all, or boost the damage of a crusader or something equivalent.

I think the weapon profiles for knights feel a bit meh. I look at the toys in my other armies and wish we had a revamp. (Admech is my other alternative army)

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Maybe it’s just me. I find more often than not I can point a crusader at something and it does sweet FA. Maybe a couple of wounds. When facing T7 and a minus to hit maybe a -1 damage the Gatling gun feels pretty silly.

It’s probably to do with what armies I’m facing in my area but I never feel the Gatling gun does much. I’m also finding thermal cannons getting 1-2 shots and then failing to wound or bouncing off an invulnerable save happens too consistently to be useful.

Maybe it’s me, maybe it’s maybeline

Thermal cannon 3.5 shots - 1/3 to hit - the wound role - 1/3 T5+ then halved or - a third if they have a invulnerability you should get 0.8 through assuming 4++ and a T7+ target 1.02 if rerolling wounds

Las impulsor 6 shots- 1/3 to hit with s12 -1/3 vs t7+ then - half or third based on their invul 1.33 through assuming 4++ and a t7+ target

1.7 through for canis rex

Thing is its a really high variance weapon but both weapons double there effectiveness if shooting something like a russ that has no inv.

Its a pity you can't take a Las impulsor and avenger



As to a damage mitigation strat the problem is a bit like 3++ it makes the knights to good vs 2 damage weapon on a questoris its 24 extra wounds vs 3 wound weaponry its 12 extra

where as currently I agree there not durable enough if it were me I would just alter the profiles 30W for ,a questoris 15 for an armiger 35 for a dominus/cerastus 40 for an acastus.

More wounds I could get behind. Bit of a boost but perhaps not oppressive.

I do wonder why stuff like leviathan dreads etc have escaped the nerf hammer further.

It’s literally more survivable than a knight in some circumstances

Id love to see Thermal Cannons get a buff. As it stands now the cannon the size of a buick is only superior on range when compared to a multimelta. It reall needs a solid buff to Str 10 and something more like 2d3 shots and probably also have a minimum damage of 3 (or better yet, 2d6). The thing should be scary and melt tanks like butter. Its designed to kill other knights and should be in the ranks of a scaled down version of a Reaver melta cannon

I never even noticed Canis Rex had 2+/2+ hit rolls. He's actually surprisingly well rounded, and doesn't need any additional relic/trait investment. Against 10+ model units, his feet deal 9.6 wounds, compared to a normal Preceptor's 6.7. Against vehicles, his gauntlet does ~18 wounds on average (compared to 10). His high powered Las does 11.7 average damage before saves (compared to 9.4). The worst thing about him is that he's Questor Imperialis so can't use Machine Spirit Resurgent.

 IHateNids wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Maybe it’s just me. I find more often than not I can point a crusader at something and it does sweet FA. Maybe a couple of wounds. When facing T7 and a minus to hit maybe a -1 damage the Gatling gun feels pretty silly.

It’s probably to do with what armies I’m facing in my area but I never feel the Gatling gun does much. I’m also finding thermal cannons getting 1-2 shots and then failing to wound or bouncing off an invulnerable save happens too consistently to be useful.

Unreliable melta cannons are absolutely something I wanna change. I'd like to be able to run a pair of Errants without sacrificing any kinda reliability.

Right now, in practice, you just need to use your command re-roll on the number of shots (if less than 3). I agree and think a lot of D6 weapons are too swingy. I'd change the Thermal Cannon to 2D3 shots, in addition to the 2+d6 at half range buff. With the strat and 2+D6, it would deal 11.5 damage compared to 10 with D6 shots. It's a 15% damage increase, but the average becomes way more consistent, and it can actually beat the Las-Impulsor now.

I think Knights are doubly suffering because the chasis directly compete in function and it cuts the already few options in half. Statistically, a Castellan is just better than a Valiant. A Warden is just better than a Paladin. A Preceptor is just better than an Errant. Worse, the better ones are cheaper and specialists are not rewarded.

Ideasweasel, you've got an unfortunately anti-Knight meta. You'd have to do something pretty drastic to compete against it. The way to get through -1 damage is just to do big hits. The Crusader's Avenger is a liability if you aren't against Primaris, so you'll want either Errants or Preceptors. That also means close combat, so consider a Gallant. A Raven Castellan should still melt Dreadnoughts with both weapons, though more Shieldbreakers is probably better for you.

Maybe consider:
1995pts, 10CP
Raven Castellan, -1 Siegebreaker, +2 Shieldbreaker, Bulwark, Cawl's Wrath
Raven Preceptor, Stormspear, Sainted Ion
3 Raven Warglaives, Meltaguns
Freeblade Mechanicus Gallant, ObSec, Landstrider

The list is all big hits with fast and powerful melee. It's extremely CP hungry though. On turn 1 the Castellan wants 3CP, the Gallant wants 3 for Full Tilt and charge re-roll, the Preceptor and Warglaives each want 1, plus another 2 CP to give Rotate and Resurgent. Once everything is in melee on turn 2, you're less hungry, but you're also spent. You'll basically just be able to keep up Resurgent or Rotate.

I still find the Castellan a hard sell. I don't deny it shooting is awesome when you go first but if you go second its such a big chunk of your points. It means your building to a coinflip.

I agree canis is well rounded and I think if I was taking 3 big knights I would always take him in the third slot right now if nothing more than to save 4 CP on upgrades

I'm also not a fan of a gallant in the current meta not when a preceptor is 5 points more or canis 30. I mean is the extra A really worth the extra gun and in that list just stopping the gallant for a second preceptor doesn't require any other changes you have the spare 5 pts and as a bonus two knights with rr auras means you can fan the warglaives more and means they will benefit for a greater portion of the game

The Gallant is a distraction Carnifex in that list specifically against a Dreadnought spam meta. It takes the entirety of most armies' shooting to kill a Knight, and killing a Gallant minimizes your loss. As a Full Tilt push threat, the Gallant inflicts 13.5 damage on average to T7 5++, while a Preceptor (or other Knight) does ~9 average. Mind you, because the damage is dealt in increments of 6, that roughly means the Preceptor deals 6 damage 66% of the time and 12 or more 33% (plus some vanishingly small chance to deal 0). Meanwhile the Gallant gets 12 damage ~60% of the time. So a Gallant is about twice as likely to actually kill a Dreadnought, even though the average damage is only 50% higher.

In House Raven specifically, the first Preceptor is slightly better than a Gallant if you add the Las-Impulsor with strat since it deals an average 6 damage. Without the strat, the Las-Impulsor doesn't reach a break-point to improve the likelihood of killing a 10-12 wound model in the following melee. Obviously, with Raven you can't advance and shoot so your threat range is insufficient.

Canis Rex is an interesting case because his fist isn't flat damage so the Las-Impuslor does contribute to chance to kill. Without the strat, his gun deals 4.5 damage, and his fist averages ~12. The likelihood of getting 7.5 damage to kill most Dreads is extremely high, like 90%+. However, he can't shoot and advance and only gets his Questor Imperialis move bonus, so his actual charge threat range is pretty limited.

Also, despite using a Preceptor, Rex doesn't have the Mentor rule.

In conclusion, a Gallant is far and away the best Full Tilt threat.

EDIT: I guess if you do go for double Raven Preceptor, you can just push both and choose to strat the one you Full Tilt. Your reliability goes up, however your total damage goes down in any game where the Gallant and Preceptor would survive turn 1. Plus you lose the opportunity to take an ObSec Freeblade since you need Raven.

Non strat las impulsor does 4.6 avg dam to t7 or 5.8 to t6
The chainsword does 11.2 damage on average or 15.7 if you upgrade to ravager

The gallant 16.8 avg damage

Yes the variance is higher but... not taking ravager vs t7 your looking at 15.8 dam vs 16.8 and taking ravager or hitting t6 the gallant is outperformed

A preceptor in the face is going to be just as distracting for a competent opponent as a gallant. You can still obsec freeblade it


Going first you can forgo the shooting and full tilt and going second you probably don't need to full tilt. But both knights are likely to kill one dreadnought in melee without enough damage to spread to a second target. The shooting to a second target is just a bonus as is the extra aura

If you make the Preceptor a Freeblade it would also lose the ability to grant rerolls with it's Mentor ability, as it loses the Household keyword that the Armigers look for.

fair enough but i still think its the stronger choice even without its aura.

Im going to come out and say it.

Knights need obsec. The fear of knight buffs is unwarranted. When even the most ardent knight haters in my gaming circle are starting to feel for them you know it’s not a great time lol. I played against a harlies list yesterday that threw its entire army in my face turn 1. I did as best as I could screening out with a frontal row of 24 Admech raiders.

I even managed to shred a lot of his army but the problem is this. He can have a single model stand on an objective that I’m on and it’s denied. Blocking a base and heroic intervention is one thing but when he charges you with 4+ units on each objective the game is over as you score 5 or zero primaries

I think if I went first I’d maybe do better but I’m straight up jealous of the things other armies can do. And despite usually being an optimist I’m at the point where I think shelving my knights and playing something else for a while is best. Getting a bit burned out on 9th edition. It seems some armies are tailor made for this edition and some are truly left out in the cold.

Not a specific gripe about harlies though as they suffered for the last 3 years. I think swapping to pure Admech till our codex might be best for my tournament fun. I do have one in 3 weeks and am considering giving the knights one last hurrah before a period of rest.

Mono knights doesnt work at the moment but all those things you complain about you could do too.

Knights like in 8th or 7th is a soup army.If you want to be able to do what admech do nothing stops you takeing 27 raiders alongside your knights.

The problem as far as scoreing goes is its start of turn so even if you clear the objective in your turn you dont score and obsec wouldnt solve that when you have one model