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I can almost guarantee there will not be a horde army at this event. It’s usually 28-38 people and most of them are regulars.

The ones that do enjoy horde have moved onto others things. You never know of course but I would be honestly really surprised if we see the 90+ boys type lists.




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(I’m totally going to eat my words and get some weird horde spam meta warping army round 1 aren’t I haha)


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@darkhound I also forgot to mention I’ve been really enjoying using the 8”auto advance stratagem from engine war. Sometimes on a terrain heavy board getting a good firing line for the Castellan can be a bit annoying turn 1.

I’ve caught people off guard flinging him forwards or straddling left or right to pop a couple of vehicles.

I played a friends guard the other day with the above and it Absolutely shredded him. I think I need more practice with the movement and measuring to ensure pack tactics though

You are right raven doesn’t do so much for the warglaives but pushing up the preceptor with Landstrider is nice. Means my entire army can move quite fast.

All in all I’m enjoying armigers and they were a unit I had written off in 8th edition so it’s nice to trot them out

The other benefit to House Raven is the 'advance and shoot as normal' house trait. With the additional terrain that 9th edition calls for, getting LoS (especially with Titanic units over 18 wounds) can be tricky. Being able to get that extra movement for virtually free is a serious consideration. If the regular Meltaguns on a Dominus chassis knight get the D6+2 damage at close range, bringing them to bear also becomes worth more effort.

Basically, if I'm using a Castellan, I'm probably going House Raven. If not, any of the other Mechanicus houses are interesting. Even some of the Imperalis houses could be useful depending on specific kits. Valiant's with Hawkshroud for example. The Objective Secured/count as 10 models is an Imperalis specific one if I remember right.

You'll just really want screening units. More so than any edition, everyone can outflank their anti-knight stuff like Eradicators now.

I feel like Raven is more worth it for the advance and shoot thing rather than Order of Companions (which, let's be honest, you're probably only going to use once, maaaaaybe twice, these days since it costs 3 of your precious CP). I've been toying with taking Raven on a list that would have 2 Crusaders and a Castigator. The Castigator takes the Landstrider trait and starts on the line, advances up, fires his gun at something, then uses the Full Tilt stratagem to charge. Not sure it's worth having a Castigator pull a Leeroy Jenkins, but the idea is kind of funny anyways.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I feel like Raven is more worth it for the advance and shoot thing rather than Order of Companions (which, let's be honest, you're probably only going to use once, maaaaaybe twice, these days since it costs 3 of your precious CP). I've been toying with taking Raven on a list that would have 2 Crusaders and a Castigator. The Castigator takes the Landstrider trait and starts on the line, advances up, fires his gun at something, then uses the Full Tilt stratagem to charge. Not sure it's worth having a Castigator pull a Leeroy Jenkins, but the idea is kind of funny anyways.

Well, I was wondering what my first 9th Ed Knight List was going to be....

I'm not anymore. Bolded for emphasis. Thanks for the good chuckle

 DarkHound wrote:
The Volcano Cannon does the bulk of the increase, going from 11.67 to 20.36 (74% increase). Surprisingly, the Siegebreakers actually only get a 35% increase despite so many random rolls. Every other gun gets a 50-60% increase.

Is that damage output average calculated with or without overkill removed? with d6 shots and 3d3 damage overkill seems to be not that unlikely(especially with rerolls) causing the real meaningful average go down.


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U02dah4 wrote:
Great massive increase now next round your playing my T3 horde army whats the damage increase? The volcano cannon goes from not quite 3 to not quite 3

The problem with that sort of argument is that the benefit is largely determined by your opponents list so yes t7 3+ is great but that's not all lists

Odds of running into pretty much extinct build in 9e is pretty damn low. Might just as well ask what to do when you run into 3 necron pylon list.

Ideasweasel wrote:@darkhound I also forgot to mention I’ve been really enjoying using the 8”auto advance stratagem from engine war. Sometimes on a terrain heavy board getting a good firing line for the Castellan can be a bit annoying turn 1.

That is actually a pretty compelling argument for Raven. Okay, I admit, you guys are warming me up to the idea. I think there's a pretty narrow range of builds where they're good, but if they're good then they are.

tneva82 wrote:

 DarkHound wrote:
The Volcano Cannon does the bulk of the increase, going from 11.67 to 20.36 (74% increase). Surprisingly, the Siegebreakers actually only get a 35% increase despite so many random rolls. Every other gun gets a 50-60% increase.

Is that damage output average calculated with or without overkill removed? with d6 shots and 3d3 damage overkill seems to be not that unlikely(especially with rerolls) causing the real meaningful average go down.

It is not accounting for overkill, but it doesn't need to. The actual damage results are a probability curve. You can use a computer to calculate every possible result and determine the probability of a kill against a given amount of wounds. Having an average damage that exceeds their wounds just pushes the curve up (a lot), increasing the odds of success (and decreases the odds of failure). The difference is I can do average damage calculations in my head in a couple seconds at the table. That gives me an intuition of the odds of success even if the average isn't technically possible.

As an aside, the only caveat is averages gated by large failure chances vs success payoffs. A practical case I'm considering is swapping my Preceptor's Paragon Gauntlet for the Ravager. Technically, the Gauntlet has an average damage of about 18, but the actual results are discrete increments of 8 and are mostly gated by the hit roll. There's about an 8% chance to inflict 8 or less damage. If the Paragron fights 3 times a game, about one in 4 games I'll fluff my rolls. The Ravager's average damage comes down to 16, but the odds of critical failure become 1.3%, which is once in 25 games. The Ravager is slightly less likely to secure a kill, but vastly less likely to screw up completely.

Just had two games with my current list.

First versus a tau list - very close but I won by 6 points

Second game was versus a friends eldar with a ton of anti tank. (He tweaked his list a little bit but was all in good fun) lost badly but so much explode rolls and swingy luck came into play. I made some silly decisions and am not putting the blame on the dice but we had about 7 explode rolls and a ton of mortal wounds - it was hilarious

Sticking with the list for now. It does tend to go big or go home but I played quite tactfully against the tau and am pleased with the result. And whilst tau are not all they once were a knight win versus tau shouldn’t be taken for granted.

 DarkHound wrote:
It is not accounting for overkill, but it doesn't need to. The actual damage results are a probability curve. You can use a computer to calculate every possible result and determine the probability of a kill against a given amount of wounds. Having an average damage that exceeds their wounds just pushes the curve up (a lot), increasing the odds of success (and decreases the odds of failure). The difference is I can do average damage calculations in my head in a couple seconds at the table. That gives me an intuition of the odds of success even if the average isn't technically possible.

But if you just calculate average based on shots x odds of hit x odds of wound etc without removing overkill that just gives useless info. Like necron pylon average caused 31 damage to baneblades. Useless info though. More useful is 57% one shot chance. Looking at average damage like that just makes you overestimate effect.

tneva82 wrote:

 DarkHound wrote:
It is not accounting for overkill, but it doesn't need to. The actual damage results are a probability curve. You can use a computer to calculate every possible result and determine the probability of a kill against a given amount of wounds. Having an average damage that exceeds their wounds just pushes the curve up (a lot), increasing the odds of success (and decreases the odds of failure). The difference is I can do average damage calculations in my head in a couple seconds at the table. That gives me an intuition of the odds of success even if the average isn't technically possible.

But if you just calculate average based on shots x odds of hit x odds of wound etc without removing overkill that just gives useless info. Like necron pylon average caused 31 damage to baneblades. Useless info though. More useful is 57% one shot chance. Looking at average damage like that just makes you overestimate effect.

It's not useless information, you're just pointing out that most people misunderstand what "average result" means. Like people saying "the average result of 2d6 is 7, so I should make this 7" charge" when actually 7 or more is only a 58% chance. The average result or better only occurs about half the time with normal bell curve. If my average damage is 16 against a 16 wound target, it's still only a coin flip to kill them.

You can't plot the probability curve of the results on the fly, but you can calculate the average and assume two things: the results form a bell curve, and the variance is pretty small because more dice rolls conform to an average. For your Pylon vs Baneblade example, you know that 31 damage is only 19% more than the Baneblade's 26 wounds. You're still really close to average, so your results are still going to be near 50%. The further your average gets from your target, the faster your chance to kill increases.

If I say the Volcano Cannon does an average 20 damage, you know that's 25% more than 16 wounds, so you can intuit that's still within a standard deviation so the results are closer to 50% (I'd guess somewhere around 60%). If that average 20 damage is targeting 12 wounds, that's 67% more; the target is likely more than 1 standard deviation from the average, so the results are starting to approach 97% (I'd guess something like 85%).

Looks like my event is cancelled cause of new Scottish guidelines.

So perhaps knights can wait for the time being till they get their codex

I’m still interested in making Admech Raiders work with a heap of armigers.




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Anyone used a castigator recently, I’ve got the opportunity to get a second hand one cheap and am considering it

I use one in 80% of my CK lists - he makes a great Dreadblade. In IK the Preceptor often sneaks in, as with the strat he's undercosted imo.

Planning on running some moirax knights with twin grav pulsars with my admech. Looking at doing the pick own household and like either the reroll #of shots for each weapon or combining the +6” range with the leave combat and still shoot with a -1 or charge

Is there one that is that much better or something else worth taking?

If I'm running only armiger class knights I go with the leave combat and either shoot at -1 or charge and also the one free hit reroll when selected as a mechanicus house. I've found they are fast enough to not need the imperial+1 inch charge/run.

 Fishborne wrote:
If I'm running only armiger class knights I go with the leave combat and either shoot at -1 or charge and also the one free hit reroll when selected as a mechanicus house. I've found they are fast enough to not need the imperial+1 inch charge/run.

Second that as especially with that load out you need to keep them firing, though they can just shoot what they are in combat with so it's a bit reduced in effectiveness if your pack hunting with them.
The other one I'd suggets considering is the always move at top bracket, but with GW jacking lethality of weapons I doubt that you will get much out of that given they will die completely.

They can not shoot in combat as the grav pulsars is a blast weapon so it’s all or nothing with that.

If you want an imperial house you could go storm striders since they don't have a fight from the top bracket strat. But if you want a mechanicus house I don't think it's a great choice. I guess it depends on your meta. Do things get focused down in a turn it does everything get nickeled and dimed?

How is everyone feeling about these reroll nerfs.

Since our faction has limited access to rerolls internally slight buff?

I’ve been playing Admech recently but keep coming back to my stompy boys. Custodes are proving a thorn in my side at the moment. I’m doing ok against the other mid tier factions but the likes of Custodes, deathguard and the better marine supplements are giving me pause.

I’d love a sneak peak into the future to see what salvation our 9th codex can bring. I was tempted to email the rules team asking for obsec. It’s that or a survivability buff.

A Princeps can dream...

Less rerolls is good for the game time wise

But proof is in the detail and right now a slight nerf is not enough to make knights viable I was at a tournament last weekend with 0 ik lists

It’s rough.

I’m just so stubborn and keep returning.

What’s it going to take for me to give up on this edition and knights

Problem solving ladies and gents.

How do imperial knights with the full extent of the imperium roster - beat Stygies breacher spam

I am coming up short. Armiger Moirax’s and Hellverins maybe? A Castellan?

What to ally in that’s useful? Full payload manticore maybe?

Anyone have any thoughts

Same way you beat Gravis spam: lots of Dmg3 weapons. I think Data-hoard Breachers are better, but against Stygies melee is especially effective as it denies their dogma (Waaaarglaives).

Breachers mostly have to congregate around the Warlord for their 5+++. This makes them ideal for multi-charging Warglaives for Pack Tactics. You charge a central unit with the first Warglaive, then 2 more Warglaives charge that unit and another unit to the side. Each Warglaive kills about 2 Breachers, each Stygies Breacher inflicts half a wound (Data-hoards inflict 0.8). The Warglaives grind them down over 2 or 3 rounds. Of course, it's never that straight-forward in practice.

Their other weakness is that despite having ObSec, they have a low model count. If you can leverage cheap allied ObSec, you can flip objectives while you grind them down.

With my list specifically, the Fusilave bomber can shut off the Warlord's 5+++ unless he screens very aggressively. I'm sure his shooting will kill the Preceptor and a Warglaive early on, but the remaining 3 Warglaives and my infantry will absolutely out-match 25 Breachers. What I do with the rest of my army depends on the rest of the opponent's list. Between the two versions that got top 4, I think the Mars shooting version would be harder for me.

What’s your current list again?

I wish our units were cheaper. I often struggle to squeeze the toys I want in

I miss using 3x big knights but if you take 3 then your limited to 3-4 armigers.

Right now my army list is this:I keep going back and forth between Noble Combatants, Glorified History, and Defiant Fury, but I think I'm settling into this. Most of my changes lately have been on the AdMech side, since there's only so much you can tweak with Knights.

Honestly, sometimes I think it'd be better for the game if Knights got split up into AdMech and IG, or else got some attending infantry support. I don't think it's good for the game that the army has such large minimum increments. It stifles diversity for pure Knights, since some builds just don't fit efficiently at certain point levels. It'd be interesting to see pure Knights get an infantry platoon or support vehicle squadron under a single Superheavy slot. You could keep your Knight Lance but actually spend your spare points without having to shuffle the entire army to fit another Knight.

I do like your list. Looks fun.

Speaking of fun lists

Evan Stump just got 2nd place at a GT with the below

Lucius outrider
Enginseer
27 raiders

Raven super heavy
Castellan
2 wardens

Someone floated such a list a few weeks ago that was pretty much identical to this. Shall we discuss?

I love it but am amazed how he scored so highly. Kudos to him and it’s great to see knights represented and doing well

I like it. I think that Knights suffer from not having screens, being in limited places on the map, and to a lesser extent lack anti-horde. I think that Raiders fix most of those problems. The ability to snipe characters and fall back from a charge make them even better utility units. AdMech also allow a Knight to get a canticle benefit every now and then, which can be nice. Overall, I think that it's at least a way to play Knights without auto-losing.

Edit: do you mind posting the exact load-outs? I'm interested in why Lucius, for example. And what the Wardens were running.

Sure thing


Lucius for ignore AP1

Castellan with 2 missiles 635 pts
Warden with sword And Ironstorm missile pod - Sanctuary 445 pts
Warden with sword And Ironstorm missile pod - Cunning Commander 445 pts

I’m impressed, my local area has a few matches that on paper would be hard to deal with. But he did amazing to get so far. Great player obviously

Thanks for that.

I'd try to run the two Wardens as close to each other as possible, use the Castellan to secure a back-field objective with the Enginseer, and use the Raiders to screen out deep-strikers, go after characters, or skirmish for objectives, depending on the capabilities of the opponent's army.

The Knights are all set up to kill Primaris marines rather well. Anti-tank is limited to the Castellan (obviously very good at it) and the Warden's melee abilities. If the Castellan goes down too quickly that could cause serious problems.

I'm also nervous about playing this list against a large number of 'ignore AP-2' Sisters of Battle. Raiders would help here a little I suppose. Trick would be to ignore the rank-and-file and take out the threats to your Knights like Repentia, the Exorcists, and any melta-squads running around.

Interestingly enough that’s what this list eventually faltered to. Last match for the win was a sisters mixed list.

I'm trying with an IK list with a Raider escort- what do we think are the best forgeworld options for raiders?

Tp-E
26 Raiders
1 lascannon ballistarii
2 Neutron onager

2 Moirax Grav+Claw
1 knight castigator
1 knight preceptor + ironstorm

Hmm I’d probably go Stygies with that set up

Can you talk me through your choices. 1 lascannon balistari is a interesting pick. Also would the neutrons be better swapped out with taking 2 warglaives instead? Maybe drop the balistari if the points are needed

What household are you leaning towards for the knights? Krast maybe?