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2020/08/13 14:08:06
Subject: Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
Armiger Helverins, Warglaives, and Moiraxes are separate data sheets. Each also can be fielded in units of up to 3, so 8 Armigers of any combination of models could be fielded.
Gallants, on the other hand, are limited to 3 if the mission includes the rule of 3.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/13 14:09:33
2020/08/13 14:27:53
Subject: Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
This is the next list that I will play, it will be my second 9th game and I am still trying to figure out the best way to use my Admech and IKS.
the gallant will run towards enemy territory, the crusader will stay in my zone killing everything he can, the armiger and ballistarii will try to occupy targets despite not being very numerous, the priests will move with lucius before the game to an enemy target if there is room and they will try to kill something to get into 3 ++, finally the infantry will move to help the ballistarii and armigers to have some presence.
Been playing Taranis for 3 years, mine are even painted as such. But with the changes to reroll and the need for good melee more so than ever, I’d reconsider your household
Automatically Appended Next Post: And a Krast Crusader with first knight and headsmans mark gives you a bit more punch of anti tank
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/13 23:02:29
2020/08/14 06:50:39
Subject: Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
Been playing Taranis for 3 years, mine are even painted as such. But with the changes to reroll and the need for good melee more so than ever, I’d reconsider your household
Automatically Appended Next Post: And a Krast Crusader with first knight and headsmans mark gives you a bit more punch of anti tank
I also have all my iks painted from the Taranis house but it seems like a good idea to change them to Krast.
I like your advice, thanks.
To shoot down tanks I also have the Ballistarii Autocanon f7 (+1 to the wound roll) damage 2 + Ballistarii Lastcannon F9 and damage 1D6
another option may be to insert a Terrax-Pattern Termite Assault Drill
and exchange the Crusader for a Warden. The Terrax-Pattern Termite Assault Drill he can transport the Priests and thus switch to Stygies so that when the Ballistarii get stuck in melee he can use the chant to escape and fire, the problem is losing the firepower of the cannon
With the price of the Chaos Knight's Tyrant going down to match the Castellan, I'm a little more confident that they have dropped its price to something that is reasonable. Not too high, not too low. That said I was looking at the ways I might use it to run a primary Knights/backup AdMech list.
The Castellan still benefits from the Raven strat, and Ion Bulwark offsets its 3-CP cost for rotate ion shields. It can advance and shoot as normal to get a line of sight against what it needs to. The two Wardens would advance up a flank taking advantage of the 8-inch advance strategim and Landstrider to jump on an objective. The idea would be that since they are both characters, they could heroically intervene on units trying to contest the objective and at least make that a harder thing to do.
The Serberys Raiders are awesome at screening, harrassing, and sniping key characters with 18'ish shots per unit. They can use their pre-game move to get out closer to the middle or to just generally get where you want them to be. The Ranger squads can all be put into reserve for 1 command point, letting them come in at later turns to help hold objectives without risking early turns destruction.
2020/08/17 04:44:44
Subject: Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
I agree about the Castellan. It looks like its price won't be changing for a while, so it looks like it's in a good spot.
Definitely let me know how the 3x5 Rangers perform. I have trouble imagining them doing anything meaningful, but I'd love to hear information to the contrary.
bmsattler wrote: With the price of the Chaos Knight's Tyrant going down to match the Castellan, I'm a little more confident that they have dropped its price to something that is reasonable. Not too high, not too low. That said I was looking at the ways I might use it to run a primary Knights/backup AdMech list.
The Castellan still benefits from the Raven strat, and Ion Bulwark offsets its 3-CP cost for rotate ion shields. It can advance and shoot as normal to get a line of sight against what it needs to. The two Wardens would advance up a flank taking advantage of the 8-inch advance strategim and Landstrider to jump on an objective. The idea would be that since they are both characters, they could heroically intervene on units trying to contest the objective and at least make that a harder thing to do.
The Serberys Raiders are awesome at screening, harrassing, and sniping key characters with 18'ish shots per unit. They can use their pre-game move to get out closer to the middle or to just generally get where you want them to be. The Ranger squads can all be put into reserve for 1 command point, letting them come in at later turns to help hold objectives without risking early turns destruction.
my list with castelan is very similar to what you propose
The 4 Warglaives blow out a lot of match-ups at this point level. My toughest matches have been against Marines, but they're always close. The most important tactic is distance management. His Eradicators have a threat range of 32" (24" gun, 3" trait, 5" move). My Warglaives can shoot to 44", and assault ~24" (or 30" with Full Tilt). If I deploy conservatively, I have always gotten the first strike, and each Thermal Spear kills about one Eradicator. If I'm lucky, I can move to charge their midfield Aggressors/Assault Intercessors while shooting the Eradicators.
In response, my experienced opponent hides or reserves the Eradicators and basically uses his midfield as bait. Fortunately, at long range the (fully buffed) Eradicators only middle bracket a Warglaive (and Defiant Fury kicks in). I just have to keep the Armigers 18" away or 19" from the board edge to stay out of half range.
When things go badly, his Eradicators can cripple two Armigers and his other AT can finish them off. It's critical that the Warglaives are only exposed after they've charged the midfield infantry. If the Warglaives are killed after the Intercessors and Aggressors are crippled, then I'll win by holding objectives.
Usually the game ends similar to the 1500 report I posted earlier (against the same player, actually). I've got a couple Dunecrawlers and some Vanguard holding objectives, while he's got a couple characters wandering around with some Eradicators taking pot shots.
Castellan Ion bulwark, Cawls Wrath
Preceptor Ironstorm (Landstrider, helm of dominatus)
6 warglaives with metas
My opponent was an iron hands almost entire dread list. Leviathan, Mortis, contemptor etc. He had 3 invictors for scout move.
We played 2 games on two different table setups. One had a centre piece that we counted as woods. The other looked like a nova style L blocker table. All of the terrain has windows. Most of it was considered obscuring etc
The amount of terrain was quite dense. We played two missions from the book that only have 4 objectives(which I was quite pleased about)
My opponent won the roll off to go first. He proceeds both games to drop my preceptor turn 1. First game nothing I could have done about that. Second game I could of deployed slightly further back to take less wounds and he would have lived.
The first game pregame he scout moved the invictors onto the furthest away objectives. Then he threw up most of his dreads up into the centre of the board and touched the woods. This giving him access to shoot me and me a -1 penalty across the board in return apparently. (Not liking these terrain rules tbh)
Turn 1 I had two options. Go for the heavy hitters in his army or try and remove the invictors off the objectives to try and slow down the primary deficit. I elected to do so and...well rolled like an absolute gimp. 1’s and 2’s across the board - in my gaming circle I’m usually known as being exceptionally jammy with dice rolls. About 16 people had a laugh at my misfortune(via whatsapp)
The game was pretty much toast there and then to be honest. Turn 2 he dropped 3 of my armigers and I just called it
Game 2 with woods over to the side and the classic L blockers I felt like this would be better. My opponent commented that we had quite a lot of terrain and it was the map with the circle of 9” deployment table quarters. He was quite happy that this coincided with the L blockers.
I wanted to be less passive (as game 1 I really felt I’d given up the mid board by being cautious and also unlucky getting sniped +bad shooting phase.
He went first and scout moved invictors. I had split my army into two flanks. Preceptor to run along the bottom left with 3 armigers. Castellan to head north with 3 armigers and try and remove the 2 invictors that were on an objective easily snatched just outside my deployment.
Miscalculated the threat range of his stuff and he did just enough damage to kill the knight preceptor. This was 100% my error this time round. So I start the game minus the preceptor.
I go with the game plan and push Castellan up into melta range of invictors on the objective just outside of my deployment flanked with a few warglaive buddys. I change direction of the bottom left armigers and push up just behind one of the L blockers in the centre. My opponent at this point has moved most of his heavy hitters to be in the middle around the L blockers on the other side away from me.
In a rare bit of luck that evening his leviathan dread is touching the terrain piece. I decide f*ck it I’m going to light him up. Threw most of my guns into him and had mixed results but managed to drop him.
Meltas and a coupe of warglaives totally whiffed on the invictor so it counts as contested. But my opponent was on 2, I was on 1. So he gets the 15VP primary. For those wondering why I didn’t shoot off the other invictor to make it 1v1 the angle on the terrain was impossible for me to get a decent firing lane. Kudos to my opponent but we really did have a decent amount of terrain and it stung me there.
His turn 2 he absolutely smashes it. Drops my Castellan with just enough. My turn 2 I figure I can get back in this if I play cagey and take out his 48” range las dudes. Then just burst fire down selected targets from behind cover. - His las Cannon dudes i’d like to add we’re throwing blinders. One guy did 17 wounds himself to a knight. I just couldn’t save for the life of me.
So I throw my warglaives into them and actually had decent damage and number of shots go in. His then just rolls a $hit ton of invulnerable and fnp saves. Laughing at the best dice he’s ever rolled.
The dread survives on 4 wounds. The game was pretty much over there. Not really worth recapping the rest. My opponent had a 12 game winning streak before this. Good guy but he even managed to be more jammy than me (usually) haha
Automatically Appended Next Post: **Will also add that space marines hitting on 2’s, rerolling 1’s and rerolling wounds.....makes me wonder why can’t knights get some of that action? /shrug**
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/08/28 22:31:18
2020/08/29 00:29:24
Subject: Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
That sounds rough, and mostly sounds like tactical errors. The only strategic issue is House Raven; I don't think it provides much benefit. I don't see the extra d6 movement being a difference maker. Only the Preceptor is likely to get real value out of it by shooting while advancing with Landstrider into a Full Tilt charge (which you'll do exactly once). It doesn't really benefit the Castellan, and the Warglaives don't need to advance. I guess the stratagem is worthwhile on a Castellan, but is that better over-all than a more general house trait?
Tactically, I think you have to overwhelm your opponent. If you're trying to hide and he can still find enough targets to use all his guns, you might as well have taken a more aggressive position in exchange for the same damage. You have too many big walkers to hide them all, so go on the offensive. That doesn't mean deploy carelessly, but measure all his ranges when deploying and try to plan for some guaranteed charges. Make him choose between killing that Preceptor and accepting charges from all your Warglaives. I pre-measure everything, all the time; sometimes I set dice down as markers for one pre-measure while I pre-measure something else, usually to compare threat ranges. I don't leave them on the board, but it can help to visualize your plan.
It's also important to consider stacking a flank during deployment. You don't need to have units in every part of the board, and the best way to avoid damage is to be out of range of half his army. If you just put 6 Warglaives on one side with the Preceptor against the board edge, any unit on the other side of the board might as well not be in the game.
Besides all that, how do you feel about the Helm of Dominatus? I've been curious about it, but the math on the damage bonus hasn't impressed me and I don't know how many Warglaives I could realistically buff. I've actually been running Landstrider with Paragon Gauntlet on my Preceptor, and he just kills literally any vehicle he touches. Hurled Wreckage is great too, though I haven't gotten much use out of Death Grip.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/29 00:38:26
This game he rolled like a gimp, I rolled very well. Smashed him. Almost felt bad lol, he was ready to call it turn 1 but we played turn 2.
I won very convincingly and almost tabled him (would have by turn 3)
Now I don’t know what to think haha
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thankyou for the feedback.
House Raven is probably a luxury I don’t need but man is it fun. It was very clutch this game. I rolled 1’s into 6’s. Helm dominatus was not required, possibly can drop it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/08/29 01:08:57
2020/08/29 02:15:20
Subject: Re:Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
That doesn't surprise me. It seems like a volatile match-up, where either you get the charge and slaughter him or he shoots you just enough that you can't hit back. I imagine as you get more comfortable with managing so many Warglaives the match-up will shift in your favour, since he has no response once you catch him in melee.
+ Stratagems +
Exalted Court [-3CP]: Exalted Court: 2 Extra Warlord Traits
Heirlooms of the Household [-3CP]: Heirlooms of the Household: 2 Extra Heirlooms
+ Lord of War +
Armiger Helverins [18 PL, 350pts] . Armiger Helverin: Heavy Stubber
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy Stubber
Armiger Helverins [9 PL, 175pts] . Armiger Helverin: Heavy Stubber
Knight Crusader [26 PL, 490pts]: Character (Knight Lance), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Armour of the Sainted Ion, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Thermal Cannon, Warlord, Warlord Trait (Mechanicus): Cold Eradication
Knight Crusader [26 PL, 490pts]: Character (Exalted Court), Character (Heirloom of the House), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Endless Fury, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Thermal Cannon, Warlord Trait (Krast): First Knight
Knight Crusader [26 PL, 495pts]: Character (Exalted Court), Character (Heirloom of the House), Heirloom: Sanctuary, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Meltagun, Thermal Cannon, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark
Krast Crusaders is really interesting, and honestly I overlooked their First Knight trait on a shooting Knight. Maybe Krast is just the house to be in 9th.
Interesting the knights player above took endless fury over headsmans mark,
I was a big fan of triple crusader for a good chunk of 8th edition. Only issue is with stuff like custodes and sisters of battle ignoring AP1/2 are the gatling cannons and autocannons that great?
hellverins damage can be so good if it goes through but AP1 can be a soft thing sometimes.
First knight is ace, I used to sometimes take First knight then use canticles for admech to grant RR1 to second crusader.
Just not so sure the above would have the AT required. Like the Article says its curtains once you lose a crusader and you likely will early on.
2020/08/29 08:50:42
Subject: Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
Yeah, I'd actually take Headsman's Mark over Sanctuary on that last Crusader, personally.
The really important part of Helverins is their flat 3 damage (which is also true of Warglaives). That really puts the hurt on Gravis-equivalent models, like Eradicators and most Custodes. Each Helverin kills 1.8 Eradicators.
I think the list is pretty durable compared to the meta, if you avoid Melta ranges. I've been keeping an eye on the tournament winner lists, and I don't think any of them could kill a Crusader in one turn reliably. At long range, each Eradicator does about 1 damage to a 4++ Crusader, and most top SM armies are just Eradicators and Grav Devastators (which are even worse against Knights).
As for the list's anti-tank output, each Helverin does ~4 damage to T7 3+, and each Crusader does ~10-13, excluding the Ironstorms. They can inflict ~50 wounds per turn to T7 3+.
By the way, could you sketch out your opponent's Dreadnought list? I'm curious what they're bringing that's causing so much trouble.
That list is illegal, unless I'm missing something big. It needs 2 more Troops to be a Battalion. Anyway, I ran the math on that list's damage vs T8 4++:
I expected only the more damaging units would be in range of the character buffs, and I included Devastator Doctrine but not any stratagems. So that list can kill a Knight on each turn, but it takes most of its firepower. The rest of the damage would amount to bracketing a Warglaive or two.
It also has a weakness to consider: the Leviathan only has a 32" threat range. If you deploy 33" away from it, it becomes a lot harder to kill a Knight on the first turn. Alternatively, if you just accept the loss of a Knight, you can deploy forward and simply be in range to charge most of his army with the Warglaives. If you use Full Tilt on one to tag a Lascannon Dread, you'll reduce his following firepower substantially while the rest catch up.
I have to say, this list would do really badly in 9th against most other armies. It may not be on purpose, but it's geared pretty heavily against Knights since they can't take advantage of this list's weaknesses. It's truly awful at scoring objectives, and it's liable to be overwhelmed in close combat. I would not expect this list to win games in a tournament.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/08/29 19:10:19
Ah, probs it’s supposed to be a patrol or vanguard something like that. I just put it together in a rush.
I think he’s been doing ok so far somehow. He was playing online quite a bit on TTS and against his friends. I definitely haven’t quite hit my stride with this edition yet so I’m willing to bet a significant portion of the problem is me and how I’m playing things.
I played against a friends Custodes list today and got wrecked and could see quite a few mistakes that I made. Target selection and also knowing when to commit. I’ve been either to passive or aggressive in the wrong circumstances.
I think I need to ensure I cover two objectives consistently and play for the 40 points if I can rather than push for 3 and then get exposed
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/29 20:36:34
2020/08/30 17:48:17
Subject: Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
A question I have after playing my Admech today is how I would beat my friends Custodes list with knights.
Those 3++ and 4++ saves are really tough nuts to crack.
And telemon dreads halfing damage, having a -1 to hit, -1 strength on your weapons and a fnp is quite a feat to kill. Could you imagine if knights had decent rules like that
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/08/30 18:22:53
2020/08/30 23:20:26
Subject: Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
Ideasweasel wrote: A question I have after playing my Admech today is how I would beat my friends Custodes list with knights.
Those 3++ and 4++ saves are really tough nuts to crack.
And telemon dreads halfing damage, having a -1 to hit, -1 strength on your weapons and a fnp is quite a feat to kill. Could you imagine if knights had decent rules like that
Custodes dreadnoughts only have a 6++, and are only -1 damage now (per the FAQ, in line with the Space Marine strat).
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
2020/08/31 07:09:19
Subject: Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
I’m looking to solidify the direction I’m taking my knights list for 9th. I’ve got a tournament coming up in November and I’m staring at a pile of grey plastic.
I would expect the tournament to be similar to standard 9th edition rules although there is talks of the old style chapter approved deployment (plonk everything down knowing who’s going first)
The 3 directions I’ve got is as below
List 1
House Raven
Castellan
Preceptor
5x warglaives with melta
Helverin
List 2 (Nabbed from goonhammer)
House Krast
3x Crusaders
Gallant
Tempest scions (for objective capping)
Scions min patrol
List 3
House Raven
Castellan
Crusader
Warden with fist
Admech Lucius outrider
Enginseer
3x9 Raiders(dogs or horses I’m still undecided what to call them)
I would expect the flavour of the month armies will all be there in force, salamanders, marines of various types, death guard, Lots of Custodes, Admech and so on etc
Automatically Appended Next Post: Any thoughts on what would be the strongest in your eyes?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/07 10:56:41
2020/09/07 18:03:08
Subject: Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
Those lists are so divergent that it'll really depend on what you're comfortable playing.
I think 3 Crusader list is the easiest to play, so it'll probably the provide the most consistent result.
I dislike House Raven in each of those lists and think you'd be better off with Krast.
I think I could play a Krast version of the first list really well, but I'm extremely comfortable with positioning Warglaives. If you're willing to put in a lot of practice games and get used to triggering full Pack Tactics reliably, then that's my favourite.
I think the AdMech Outrider list is the weakest. You've got too many Raiders. I'd max out at 3x5, but even then I think a squad will end up being redundant. I do like a Lucius attached Patrol, though: you get access to the Solar Flare for quick objective grabs and you get durable infantry. Maybe you could bring some Ironstriders or switch it to a Patrol with some Breachers instead.
I’m probably the most comfy playing the triple crusaders too, mostly cause I spent most of 8th doing so.
Why do you dislike raven? Order of companions has been pretty clutch so far. Lucius is good fun, it’s often the forgeworld I go for casual Admech games. I love the solar flare. It has created some comedy moments
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/07 18:43:15
2020/09/07 18:50:04
Subject: Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
Ideasweasel wrote: Ah, probs it’s supposed to be a patrol or vanguard something like that. I just put it together in a rush.
Unless you have added one elite dread too many it has to be 2 detachments as vanguard has max 6 elites and this lists 7. Though it's not like he can't do that. Vanquard + patrol and he's fine. Does cost him 3CP though.
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2020/09/07 20:48:58
Subject: Codex Imperial Knights - A Legacy of Honor
Ideasweasel wrote: Why do you dislike raven? Order of companions has been pretty clutch so far.
I was going to post about how Order of Companions isn't quite worth its CP and Raven doesn't bring anything else, but then I actually crunched the numbers. My usual metric is 1 CP is worth ~2.5 more average wounds. On a Castellan, the combined damage of the Decimator, Volcano, Siegebreakers, and Shieldbreaker are normally ~22 wounds against T7 3+. With Order of the Companions that becomes 35.5, a 61% damage increase, or 4.5 wounds per CP spent. That's completely nuts.
The Volcano Cannon does the bulk of the increase, going from 11.67 to 20.36 (74% increase). Surprisingly, the Siegebreakers actually only get a 35% increase despite so many random rolls. Every other gun gets a 50-60% increase.
I realize I'm treading old ground, because the Castellans were meta-warping, but that was before I came back to the hobby. I think originally it was designed with the Crusader in mind, and that's reasonably priced at 2CP. In order for it to see use outside the Castellan, they should have given it a clause that says 'this costs 3CP for units with 30 power or more'. But I digress.
In summary, yeah, Raven Castellans are nuts and probably worth the investment, even though none of the other Raven affects are useful. It does make the army extremely CP hungry, since you're going to feed the Castellan about 4 CP per turn (including Machine Spirit Resurgent) for 2 or hopefully 3 turns.
The rest of your army needs to be very CP-light. It's tough to bring allies, but you can maybe just squeeze a Patrol if they refund CPs and don't plan on spending any.
I could see something like a Castellan, 2 Crusaders, and 2 Helverins working. You could maybe swap the Helverins for a Gallant, or squeeze enough points for 3 Warglaives if you're worried about melee.
