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I think it should be like AOS giants. A knight counts as 10/15 models with obsec.

Knight soup in 8th was a much more nourishing dish. Your not wrong with highlighting another gripe I have with this edition. Not much reason to want to go second currently

Imperial Armor up for pre-order next week.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/10/25/sunday-preview-brothers-in-arms/

 DarkHound wrote:
Now that's interesting. That's why I like this game, you can fine tune your niche and end up with something different that works well. That being said, I ran the math and was surprised how similar the Valiant was to the Castellan (and that's a bad thing).

Against T7 3+, the Valiant does a total of ~27 average damage compared to the Castellan's ~28. The big issue is that about half the Valiant's damage comes from 12" range weapons. Unfortunately, the Valiant isn't especially better at killing any target. Against Primaris, the Valiant is worse than the Castellan still; its arm weapons kill 4.7 Marines compared to the Castellan's 5.1. The Valiant actually performs worse against hordes too because Castellan's blast weapons kick in for 10.0 kills while the Valiant weapons cap out at 9.2 average kills.

The Valiant is always slightly worse than the Castellan despite costing the same and having 75% worse weapon range.

Even with the -1T from Rad Saturated, the Valiant's total damage against T7(6) 3+ is only 1 point higher than the Castellan's. Likewise, against Primaris the Valiant only kills 1 more Marine than the Castellan.

So, if you just straight swapped the Dominus class and changed nothing else, you'd lose about 3% damage output and quadruple your range. If the Valiant is ever out of range with even a single gun, then a Castellan would have done more damage that game.

That all being said, the Rad Saturation does impressive things for the Moirax. It helps both the important T4 and T7 breakpoints. However, I'd swap the Volkite to the Graviton. They both deal 3.2 wounds (including mortals) to T4(3) 3+, compared to 2.7 without Rad Saturation (a 20% increase). However, the Graviton deals 3.9 wounds to T7(6) 3+ compared to the Volkite's 2 (the Rad Saturation is a 50% damage increase). The Volkite is marginally better against smaller infantry, but the rest of your list is Sulphurhounds so it's redundant.

The Castellan versus Valiant is always interesting to me. I enjoy the Valiant more in 9th because of the value you get from his Overwatch and deter heavy melee armies since my army doesn't have MUCH in the way of melee. The strats out of Engine War (-2 to charge and mortal wound explosion) also make him a more of an interesting choice for me over the Castellan. I find his overall kit simply more useful versus the higher damaging Castellan. I also despise varied weapons, 1d6 is not an acceptable number of shots for any solo weapon (Sulphurhounds have 7 in a unit for instance, making them much more likely to strike the average). 2d6 is more manageable at least. I'd rather just take the one shot from the Harpoon and be done with it, I know I've got the one shot at least and it deals flat damage. The less variance the better, it makes the Knight easier to predict.

As for the Moiraxes I thought long and hard between Graviton and the Volkite, I ultimately went with the Volkite because I needed an answer for Harlequins and Daemons. It meant weakening my army versus Gravis spam, which admittedly I may end up regretting, but if I went into a Harlequins game and they did their usual biker spam+transport spam, I couldn't see how I could manage with the Graviton's profile since their armor is a 4++, and while the Moirax melee is good against vehicles it cannot be relied on to fight something with a 4++ there is simply too much wasted AP and not enough attacks. Tack onto that the rise in Daemon soup, the Beasts of Nurgle lists in particular, I felt the potential waste of AP on the Graviton, the higher variance in shots, and potential waste of its higher damage versus 3+ Sv units, made it an overall worse weapon while definitely superior against Gravis Marines and Vehicles lacking an invuln.

Perhaps a mix of the two would be the correct answer? I really don't know. I am going to the Renegade Open at the beginning of November so we'll see if I regret Graviton versus Volkite.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Im going to come out and say it.

Knights need obsec. The fear of knight buffs is unwarranted. When even the most ardent knight haters in my gaming circle are starting to feel for them you know it’s not a great time lol. I played against a harlies list yesterday that threw its entire army in my face turn 1. I did as best as I could screening out with a frontal row of 24 Admech raiders.

I even managed to shred a lot of his army but the problem is this. He can have a single model stand on an objective that I’m on and it’s denied. Blocking a base and heroic intervention is one thing but when he charges you with 4+ units on each objective the game is over as you score 5 or zero primaries

I think if I went first I’d maybe do better but I’m straight up jealous of the things other armies can do. And despite usually being an optimist I’m at the point where I think shelving my knights and playing something else for a while is best. Getting a bit burned out on 9th edition. It seems some armies are tailor made for this edition and some are truly left out in the cold.

Not a specific gripe about harlies though as they suffered for the last 3 years. I think swapping to pure Admech till our codex might be best for my tournament fun. I do have one in 3 weeks and am considering giving the knights one last hurrah before a period of rest.

I have tried pure AdMech recently, I will say if you do not have Breachers or Priests, or both, do not bother. I ran Skitarii spam and Skitarii are simply not designed for 9th edition. They get pushed around too easily. I basically could table opponents but when their army screamed forward without a care in the world while my Skitarii horde with Disintigrators and Dunecrawlers had to hang back and kill them it was game over on points. All opponents had to do was survive until turn four and they would score enough to not care about their army getting wiped off the board. Happened time and time again.

I have found 9th is all about pushing the mid board with almost everything you have, fast, and then surviving. This is partly why I turned to Armigers is because they are durable for their points and they are fast and killy enough.

Breachers satisfy this for AdMech and Priests to a lesser extent. They aren't fast but they are durable, obsec, and killy enough. So if you have Breachers you'll do great, if you don't or hate the model and refuse to run them like me, don't bother, you will not win games.

I have a lot of priests. About 20 staff and 30 jazz hands. But I have no breachers. I don’t dislike the model but I’m not a big fan.

Is Admech really only viable as spamming breachers? A quick cursory check at recent tournament results seems to agree with you

I am sure there are others ways to run AdMech, but from a starting position Breachers are really the only way forward. Not my cup of tea personally.

As you saw from the results, if you dig deeper you'll see much of the same.

Knights had another top showing at Ork-tober Fest 2020. Jamie Horsley came in 7th, running exclusively Armigers and two squads of Intercessors.My best guess at the purpose of the Intercessors is they're for outflanking and doing actions.

 DarkHound wrote:
Knights had another top showing at Ork-tober Fest 2020. Jamie Horsley came in 7th, running exclusively Armigers and two squads of Intercessors.

Spoiler:

++ Super-Heavy Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [87 PL, 1,630pts, 12CP] ++
Armiger Helverins [18 PL, 350pts]
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy Stubber
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy Stubber

Armiger Moiraxes [27 PL, 480pts]
. Armiger Moirax: Character (Knight Lance), Heirloom (Krast): The Headsman's Mark, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark
. . Moirax Siege Claw w/ Rad-Cleanser
. . Volkite Veuglaire
. Armiger Moirax
. . Graviton Pulsar
. . Moirax Siege Claw w/ Rad-Cleanser
. Armiger Moirax
. . Moirax Siege Claw w/ Rad-Cleanser
. . Volkite Veuglaire

Armiger Moiraxes [18 PL, 320pts]
. Armiger Moirax
. . Graviton Pulsar
. . Moirax Siege Claw w/ Rad-Cleanser
. Armiger Moirax
. . Moirax Siege Claw w/ Rad-Cleanser
. . Volkite Veuglaire

Armiger Warglaives [16 PL, 320pts]
. Armiger Warglaive: Meltagun
. Armiger Warglaive: Meltagun

Armiger Warglaives [8 PL, 160pts]
. Armiger Warglaive: Meltagun

++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Salamanders) [20 PL, 367pts, -2CP] ++
Detachment CP [-2CP]
Primaris Chaplain [5 PL, 85pts]: 5. Recitation of Focus, Litany of Hate, Selfless Saviors

Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 185pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle
. 8x Intercessor: 8x Bolt pistol, 8x Frag & Krak grenades
. Intercessor Sergeant

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 100pts]: Bolt rifle
. 4x Intercessor: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. Intercessor Sergeant
++ Total: [107 PL, 10CP, 2,000pts] ++

My best guess at the purpose of the Intercessors is they're for outflanking and doing actions.

Well done to the chap for making them work.
Unfortunately The changes to Moriax as of the compendium do make them slightly weaker vrs Gravis and Outrider spam.

Would be interesting to see the breakdown but intercessors are pretty much a solid way to bully any infantry off objectives and mitigate the risk of someone just trying to flood the objectives to win.

Anyone else find the updated magaera a little interesting now? It's pricey at 480 but that sweep attack with the claw is kind of silly and the lightning cannon at 8 shots is nifty.

Haven’t flipped through it yet but the melee invulnerable is appealing

I'm liking the word that Moirax went down in points. They lost a couple points of speed and a damage on the grav-pulsars, but they still seem like a good deal to me.

Khornatedemon wrote:
Anyone else find the updated magaera a little interesting now? It's pricey at 480 but that sweep attack with the claw is kind of silly and the lightning cannon at 8 shots is nifty.

I think that is a very solid upgrade, definitely worth a look. For the list I have with Luminary Suffused Sulphurhounds I think it would help mitigate its lower strength. Glad I picked one of those up recently!

Dead happy to see the Atrapos profile get a good buffing, as I love the model and the idea of the knight.

It's down to 520pts now, which places it in Crusader territory.

It's kept its great 'Singularity' profile - 36", 4+1d6 shots, S14, -4, flat 3D. That's tailor-made for the gravis meta.

Finally, it gained a sweep attack similar to the Magaera - x3 attacks, S6, -2, flat 3D.

I tend towards Chaos Knights more, and so obviously that CC attack is far more interesting to me than you Imperial chaps, but overall it's a great steer away from being solely anti-titanic, towards anti-gravis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More generally I can see the FW knights being very strong picks now, especially with soup detachments. They don't really need traits or relics to be good, many of them have an invuln in CC, and many of them now have a sweep attack. Stack that all together and you have a group of CP-light, anti-marine units that can go 4++ in CC.

Maybe but im dissapointed in the nerfs to the castigator and moirax. I felt they were balanced before. Now they are sub par

What about the castigator changed? I was thinking about buying one soon

It went down from 27 to 26w and from 14"mv to 12 the loss of the w isn't noticeable but the speed is huge

I’ll have to ask the missus if the loss of 2” would be missed

But a nerf is a nerf and that’s annoying

I think it's to give the Lancer a specialised role and to incentivise people to take Landstrider & House Terryn, given that those things have been lacking somewhat of late

It disincentives landstrider as before they stacked and made it worthwhile. On 12" knights its less worth it

U02dah4 wrote:
It disincentives landstrider as before they stacked and made it worthwhile. On 12" knights its less worth it

Oh, I never said it made sense. This is GW after all.

Castigator is still a better Warden IMO. 40 points or so more, but gets you 2 more wounds, more shots, and a better sword.

Evening All!

Just back from a GT with house Raven

5 warglaives with meltas
1 hellverin
I Castellan
1 Preceptor

This was not my finest moment at a GT (I usually seem to finish 3-2) Went 2-3 this time, and was lower middle of the pack. I did get best sportsman award. I was quite pleased about that.

I found the wins I had were very one sided, and the losses were very hard to overcome. Playing armies that can deny primaries and play the mission was a challenge and apart from being demolished in my first game the losses were down to low scoring on primaries

First game was against a friends chaos knights and he had never rolled better, I had never rolled worse. Hilarity ensued

I’m giving the knights a small rest to play other things. However playing a GT with knights meant every game I had tons of left over time to drink beer which is always good

Anyone else played any tournies recently, if so how did you find it?

Too bad about the results, but congrats on the games played. I can't help but be a twinge envious. I've mostly stopped working on my models for want of any opportunity. We've been isolated for 8 months, and I expect we'll be lucky if we're halfway through.

Do you think running an ObSec Knight or 2 would have helped?

Cheers.

Game 1 vs chaos knights. Obsec wouldn't have helped. Not enough terrain on the table and he was so jammy with his shots. I backlines the Castellan and he just rolled almost all 5 and 6’s and I rolled 1 and 2’s. It’s funny cause he has good firepower but I was more scared of getting into range of his melee. All I needed to do was hold back the initial wave, survive and then blast him on the counter.
Sadly that didn’t happen. But its funny cause we have a bit of history of him rolling terrible (against me) and people inspecting my dice for miniature pixies controlling the outcome. It's a running gag in my gaming group that I roll suspiciously well. so whilst I may have beaten him plenty in practice games ultimately the true bragging rights come from the tournament. I got crushed 24 points to his 89 haha

Game 2 was against a tau player. He had a weird list with 2 tiger sharks and a couple of smaller fliers. He had built a list that wanted to go first. He actually conceded not long after I had won the roll off lol. I think we played about 30 minutes and then he was done. He went first against my friend the chaos knight player and absolutely blitzed him. Obsec wouldnt have mattered

Game 3 against harlequins. Yes. It would have helped. 100%
I had nearly tabled my opponent(also a friend but he had been keeping his list closely under wraps for months and haven’t played him) I nearly tabled him but lost on primaries. I still think It would have been close, maybe I’d still have lost but I would definitely had a better chance. He managed once to
stand 3.1” away outside of heroic intervention on a knight. Also armigers folded too easily so I think having T8 would have been the better call

Game 4 was against an awesome chap Andrew who runs an event called Voidhammer. Super nice guy and a fun match but he got very unlucky and every dice I touched rolled hot. My list was very well suited to deal with his and I went second. Not enough terrain on this table. Favourable mission and map type. I just backlined/hid my stuff. He moved up and I shot him off the board. I hope to play him again for a rematch with a better balanced table. It possibly might have been useful but the game swung my way too early to tell

Game 5 was against a friends dreaded dreadnought list. It was one last hurrah using the old leviathan rules. He went first and threw his invictors into my face. He rolled hot, I rolled not. It was so bad he was pretty much soloing an Armiger with a single invictor. By the start of my turn 1 I was penned in on dawn of war deployment with not many places to hide. I was in trouble but with a bit of luck and two rounds of an order of companions Castellan I managed to get back into the game. The wheels fell off around turn 3 when the Castellan decided to whiff almost completely. But I had a last desperate play tying up his leviathan and a tank and denying him some primaries.

Ultimately a loss that was never about the mission, it was always about who went first and absolutely murderised the other one. If I had gone first he thinks I would have won. I did enjoy that game the most because even though it lasted briefly it was the only game that didn’t feel one sided throughout. There was a small period where it was tough to call. Hope, hope dies last.

My knights tended to be go big or go home. Not many close games but lack of terrain played a part. I’m absolutely over D3 and D6 weapons though. If I play knights I’m bringing 9 LL moiraxes now because having 5-6 shots from thermal spears on 5 armigers all then roll 1’s 2’s occasionally into 1’s and 2’s is utterly soul destroying. Or in the case of the harlies game having a 620 model literally not do a single damage on a turn of shooting....

Knights whilst fun to play feel like they currently don't fit the edition ( for me ). I haven’t figured out how to win on primaries and feel ironically it’s probably best to swap to an easier army that can interact with terrain and the edition to dust off the skills

Then hopefully return to them in a few months with a shiny new codex, and dare I say it a chance to win

The new campaign book claims to have new rules for Imperial Knights among others. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that these will be Crusade rules, but it would be really nice if it was some kind of ObSec. I think that's the single biggest thing holding Knights back right now.

Have someone tried to max out the ObSec relic (Banner of Macharius) and Freeblade traits?

I was playing an ObSec knight list in 8th (I've got no Armiger yet) but Covid stops me from game in 9th. There is a reason none is trying that, or is the long tail of the meta?

It's tempting, but I think there are two problems with the banner/freeblade abilities. First, the banner is only Imperialis, not Mechanicus so it blocks out the houses like Raven, Krast, or Tarannis. Second, its only one knight, and that's probably the first one they will kill as a result.

bmsattler wrote:
The new campaign book claims to have new rules for Imperial Knights among others. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that these will be Crusade rules, but it would be really nice if it was some kind of ObSec. I think that's the single biggest thing holding Knights back right now.

They said the book of rust will be akin to the vigilus books, so who knows what it will end up being. There is a separate book called plague purge that has the crusade rules so looks like we'll be getting both

I know the Imperial limitation is bad if you like the Mechanicus, but I already used Terryn (for the yummy relic cannon) so I never had this issue (I always played Imperial during the entire 8th - I liked the better offense and the Stratagems more).

That said, I can attest that during all 8th my enemies priorities were always the Gallant in their face T1 (don't remember exactly the charge range after advancing but was ridiculous... like 21-30") or the Crusader in the backfield with the improved ion shield.

Probably a good player will behave differently in 9th, but I find that usually players care more about killing power...

Unfortunately I feel that also 2 ObSec Knight in 9th won't be enough (they fold easily). But maybe a mixed detachment (losing household traits to specialise in Relics and Stratagems) can work now that FW knight don't need relic and can carry the Banner.

What's the rule change with FW knights? Missed that one...

An improved sweep attack whilst keeping the special rules (like Inv in melee) paying some additional point but making them lee's in need of any Relic