Crusaders are better than regular Landraiders because they hold more assault troops.

Redeemers are better than regular Landraiders because they kill tons of foot troops easier.

Standard Land Raiders dont have enough Firepower to be useful for their points.
................................................

These are all common statements made when comparing the Godhammer Land Raider (named so after its Godhammer pattern Lascannon) or GHLR to its cousins or other heavy support choices.

The people making these statements are using the standard LR incorrectly in my opinion.

Land Raiders in general, while not as resiliant as the 4e Falcon, are the closest thing to it in 5e. They are resiliant, resiliant, resiliant. They also sport tons of firepower and are intimidating in the extreme. We've all heard it before...1 LR is an annoyance, 2 LR is a problem, 3 LR's are a HORROR.

The Standard LR is a venerable design. It's been with us since Rogue Trader. Nowadays, generally consider it last when they think about a Marine or 'Hunter Command Transport....Generally going with one of its flashier cousins, either the Crusader or the Redeemer. This article/thread will go over how to use them effectively and properly using the Space Marine Codex point of view. This isnt an attempt at proving the Standard LR superior in any way to its cousins, or even equal. It's only an attempt to help people to see the actual usefulness and proper usage of the Mighty Land Raider in a 5e game.

TACTICA: LAND RAIDER!

You've just put together your Land Raider that you got for Christmas, you asked for one of the new redeemers, but apparently G-Mom cannot tell the difference. You dont really expect to get much use out of it, but maybe you can proxy it as a redeemer until you've got the money to pick up a "Good" LR by yourself.

...sure does look cool though.
...certainly those lascannons are good for something.
...its still armour 14.
...space marine machine spirit is useful too.
...lets think about this for a second...

If you put assault troops of some sort into your LR expecting them to get into combat, they certainly have a safe haven from enemy firepower, but the LR is inferior in close range firepower to the Crusader or Redeemer.

Well, if the LR is inferior at close ranges, and it's sporting long range weaponry anyway....we'll keep it at longer ranges. However, if we do that what good is the transport capacity? Cannot a Predator be better at this sort of job than the LR itself?

What are you missing?

FIREPOWER

The standard LR's primary weapon system are two twin linked Lascannon with a defensive twin linked Heavy Bolter. Unfortunatly, under the current ruleset, the Heavy bolter cannot be fired "defensively". It still gives the Standard LR some anti-infantry capability however. More on this later.

The two twin linked Lascannons may be considered inferior by some to the 3 lascannons that a predator can carry. While this is arguable, there are some reasons why this may not be true.

The predator can POTENTIALLY get 3 hits, now this tactica isnt going to go into numbers, but personally, I do not like to rely on chance or "hope" during a battle. You can essentially count on the Predator to get two hits with lascannons on a single target. However, the armour of the Predator, while considerable, is weaker, making it susceptable to a wider range of enemy firepower. More on this later, however, if your Predator is stunned its return fire will be NOTHING.

When you consider the LR, you have a VERY good chance of a solid 2 hits with lascannons. These two lascannons may be targetted at seperate targets via the Machine Spirit for a potential of 2 enemy units shut down or not returning fire for either the next turn or the rest of the game (destroyed). Armour 14 on the Tank makes it much less common to be "stunned" as a result of enemy fire. Also, since the Machine spirit may always "fire one more weapon than is normally allowed" it may fire one lascannon even if the vehicle has been stunned.

The Land Raider makes a more reliable, more resiliant firebase than a predator. However, the potential of the Predator's 3 lascannons is such that you could get three hits, this will always be true. On the move however the Pred is restricted to 1 shot. The Landraider, on the move, is still capable of firing both weapons (at separate targets if needed). Also, if standing still and equipped with a MM within range, well we get the Idea.

Basically, with its firepower, the landraider makes a fine firebase which doesnt need to close with the enemy to be effective. Predators are still useful, and the potential for long range damage is there. However, with machine spirit in tow, the LR makes for a much more reliable firebase with more versatility. Thats where the points went.

TRANSPORT

Inferior to the Crusader. Same as the Redeemer, but the Redeemer is equipped better when you're getting assault troops where they need to be.

Is the Transport capacity a simple waste for this useful "firebase" unit? What good is transport capacity on a model that is supposed to shoot and not maneuver closer to the enemy, especially considering that there are no firepoints on a LR.

The Transport capacity of a landraider is good really for two things. Denying Kill points, and making the LR a scoring unit.

Armour 14 can take an entire game to get past in order to kill the vehicle. This is made even harder with the possibilities of Cover, smoke, or 3+ saves due to facing. If a scoring unit of troopers (even scouts) is inside the vehicle, they are effectively immune from harm until the Land Raider is destroyed. The only troopers in the game that are completely immune to str 7 or below weaponry are mounted in LR's. No other scoring unit can claim that.

Also, if on the last turn of the game, you are able to park a scoring LR on an objective after moving 12" and smoking, you will be in very good shape. If your opponent cannot destroy your LR during the shooting phase, he will have a very hard time getting you off of the objective.

Also, in missions with multiple objectives placed by the players. If you are able to place a single objective exactly 12" away from another, it is possible for a single marine, ONE marine, mounted in a LR to claim both objectives. If a Land raider parks diagonally between these two objectives, it will be within 3" of both. This is how you can get a single marine to claim two objectives 12" apart.

You may think that these tactics can be utilised by Crusaders and Redeemers, but, while they can indeed do it, it doesnt suit their purpose. Crusaders and redeemers, with their close range firepower, are better suited to carry units that wish to get stuck in quick and make their lightning claws and force weapons felt. There isnt much use in making a crusader simply "scoring" with its huge transport capacity. Also, due to the ranges at which LR's are effective within, the standard LR makes a safer "haven" for smallish units that simply wish to stay alive in order to conserve a kill point.

ARMOUR

Crusader= AV 14
Redeemer= AV 14
Standard Land Raider= AV 14

The standard LR is more resilant than either the Crusader OR the Redeemer. This section will show you why.

In order to be effective, the Crusader and Redeemer must get close. In order to be effective, the standard Land Raider must be within 48".

Range 48"

Standard LR is able to engage the enemy with primary weapon systems
Crusader and Redeemer are unable to engage the enemy
Weapons within range able to harm the tanks are-Ordinance, Railguns, Lascannon, Krak Missle

Range 36"

Standard LR is able to engage enemy with primary and secondary weapon systems
Crusader and Redeemer are unable to engage the enemy
New weapons in range able to harm tanks- Bright/Dark Lances

Range 24"

Standard LR's MM comes into range if so equipped
Crusader and Redeemer come into range with Assault cannon, hurricane bolters, MM
New weapons in range able to harm tanks- MM's, Extreme assault range, optimal range for fast mounted MM's (bikes/Speeders)

Range 18"

New threats in range-Optimal range for Mobile MM's, bike mounted Meltas, fast assault

Range 12"

Rapid fire hurricane bolters, optimal MM range
New threats in range- Optimal MM's, infantry mounted Meltas (optimal range if they move), charge range, blasters

Range <12"

Flame cannons now in range
New threats- ALL of the above, inferno pistols
..............................

As you can see, as an armour 14 tank gets closer, there are more and more things that you will find in an enemy army that will threaten or even "laugh" at its tough hide. Melta weaponry is extremly common in the 5e game of mechanised armies and vehicles with difficult damage tables. You have to get close to use it though. When you use the Crusader and the Redeemer to the best of their abilities, you are, in effect, HELPING the enemy destroy your tank.

The standard LR has no reason to advance past 48" away. It stands there with its two twin lascannons firing away, as lacannon and rail gun fire PRAYS to get past its tough hide. All other weapons are out of range and pose no threat. Hence, the Standard Land Raider IS, in effect, MORE resiliant than its two cousins.

PUTTING IT ALL TOGETHER

You've played with the Land Raider that G-Mom (grandma) gave you for Christmas 8 times now and its only been destroyed once. (by a drop-podding melta) Its been immobile, weapons destroyed, but it's hardly ever died. It carries a five man tactical squad for very little points and that squad typically takes objectives within your deployment or just a little bit outside. Once you managed to take two objectives that were real close to each other with your "scoring" LR.

You hug the table corners on your side blasting away at rhino's loaded with melta sporting troopers, frequently immobilising them making the troopers walk while vulnerable to the rest of your army. Sometimes you even manage a cover save. The rest of your army inadvertantly play's "linebacker" to your Landraiders "quarterback" and its tough for melta weapons to get into range.

Since you hug the table corners on your side, sometimes even enemy lascannons wind up being out of range of your tank. You typically advance 6" if there are no threatening targets within range and fire both lascannons. Sometimes the vehicle table frustrates you, but you've still got str9 and frequently the enemy cannot return fire due to a "stunned" result. Lance weaponry is troublesome due to raiders and Waveserpents being so darned fast but at least you generally get the first shot off..and their tanks are weaker in resiliancy than yours. You've never been hit with a MM because the Attack bikers that your friend uses are a priority target before they get close.

Drop Pods are annoying but you read a thread on Dakka about Castling, and you dont really worry about dropping Melta's anymore.

All in all, you're pretty glad that G-Mom screwed up your X-mas gift. In fact, you're begining to think that your army might really benefit from a second land raider. You're thinking about making your 5 man unit a 10 man unit and combat squadding them in objective missions and leaving them together in kill point missions. You're thinking about what free weapons to give them but more importantlyl, you're eagerly waiting until next week when your store gets another land raider in.

In the meantime, you're still trying to convince your friends why basic LR's just "work". They dont get it though. Let them keep bringing their Crusaders/Redeemers...you'll keep on Immobilising them in their backfield.

Congratulations, you've just figured out how to use Standard Land Raiders!

Lol, an excellent showing of why I've never taken anything but a standard LR in my armies. Playing GK's also really shows you the benefits of a standard LR like nothing else does

Well done Deadshane, well done. Maybe I won't have to roll my eyes as much anymore when I suggest a list w/2-3 standard LR's and someone tells me to switch them to crusaders/redeemers

I appreciate the effort but feel that the salient points are outdated by about 12 months.

The Godhammer Land Raider isn't points efficient, especially while sidelining its assault capacity, and winning Marine lists don't really gain anything by taking a single 250 point vehicle that mounts 3 guns.

If we're going to treat the Godhammer fundamentally as a Gunline bunker, then the question that has to be answered is "does this unit have enough impact to be the lynchpin of my firebase?"

I think most IG players will tell you 'no'. Two TL lascannons at 125 points a pop, adequate in 4th, are not going to do much against mech-anything in 5th, not when every other army has similar firepower for cheaper, including Marines (MM Speeders). Although "making its points back" is not as important in 5th ed, it's an uphill battle if your Godhammer has to fire 3-4 shots in order to neutralize one 55 point Chimera.

Likewise, dedicating significant point values of other units to playing Linebacker to an overcosted lynchpin simply furthers your opponent's advantage.

The second option then is as a free-safety, independently driving around in your backfield plinking anything that your main offensive can't be bothered to deal with. Is the Godhammer effective on its own? Again no, a lack of firepower and vulnerability to melta strikes via turboing/outflanking/deep striking units makes it a 250 point target dummy.

Can your army be tailored to make Godhammers effective? Sure, but you're probably much better off with 3 MM/HF speeders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hulksmash wrote:Playing GK's also really shows you the benefits of a standard LR like nothing else does

That's because GKs need the long range fire support. Marines, on the other hand, really don't.

I use a lot of the basic land raiders, come to think of it, I do not own any of the others.

I play mostly Grey Knights and Space Wolves, so the anti-tank is welcome, and I love the flexibility of dropping out some tough assault units if I have to, or if someone gets to close.

I notice how everyone is getting Melta crazy these days, and I love out-ranging them with lascannons. Heck, even MM land speeders only have a threat radius on the first turn of 12" move+24" range, and even then you are not likely do anything until you get within 12". I like my odds.

sourclams wrote:I appreciate the effort but feel that the salient points are outdated by about 12 months.

The Godhammer Land Raider isn't points efficient, especially while sidelining its assault capacity, and winning Marine lists don't really gain anything by taking a single 250 point vehicle that mounts 3 guns.

If we're going to treat the Godhammer fundamentally as a Gunline bunker, then the question that has to be answered is "does this unit have enough impact to be the lynchpin of my firebase?"

I think most IG players will tell you 'no'. Two TL lascannons at 125 points a pop, adequate in 4th, are not going to do much against mech-anything in 5th, not when every other army has similar firepower for cheaper, including Marines (MM Speeders). Although "making its points back" is not as important in 5th ed, it's an uphill battle if your Godhammer has to fire 3-4 shots in order to neutralize one 55 point Chimera.

Likewise, dedicating significant point values of other units to playing Linebacker to an overcosted lynchpin simply furthers your opponent's advantage.

The second option then is as a free-safety, independently driving around in your backfield plinking anything that your main offensive can't be bothered to deal with. Is the Godhammer effective on its own? Again no, a lack of firepower and vulnerability to melta strikes via turboing/outflanking/deep striking units makes it a 250 point target dummy.

Can your army be tailored to make Godhammers effective? Sure, but you're probably much better off with 3 MM/HF speeders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hulksmash wrote:Playing GK's also really shows you the benefits of a standard LR like nothing else does

That's because GKs need the long range fire support. Marines, on the other hand, really don't.

Possibly, NO land raiders are cost effecient. Especially when a single melta speeder can turn one into slag.

However, my point here wasnt to argue the points effeciency of units. In fact, I dont think that I ever made a point of whether or not they are "points efficient".

My point here was, for people that DO use land raiders, to point out how to properly use the standard pattern one. Thats all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sourclams wrote:
The Godhammer Land Raider isn't points efficient, especially while sidelining its assault capacity, and winning Marine lists don't really gain anything by taking a single 250 point vehicle that mounts 3 guns.

And you missed an entire point here.....The Godhammer LR HAS no assault capacity. It has a transport capacity that makes it scoring and aids in kill point denial. Basically, ignore the fact that it has an assault ramp...its gravy if you need it.

Deadshane1 wrote:The Godhammer LR HAS no assault capacity. It has a transport capacity that makes it scoring and aids in kill point denial. Basically, ignore the fact that it has an assault ramp...its gravy if you need it.

This right here... I think of it as a scoring bunker that can respond up to 12" to deal with threats in the backfield. I'm almost tempted to throw a unit of CC Scouts in it, simply to make it scoring as cheaply as possible and can still put out some CC attacks on any units that do try to get within melta range. Also makes a great place to put a Inq/Mystic combo IMO. The size of the LR gives you some extra range to detect deepstrikers and isn't the DH Hood unlimited range?

omg. I love this thread. I had a falling out with my first Land Raider... she kept sploding on me... but I think that was mostly my fault. Now I wish I never let her go. I miss you LR. Now I have a Crusader/Redeemer LR kit waiting for me to put her together... but how could I not see the love that could have been with Land Raider Classic?

Really I love this thread. Even more then my old Land Raider. I'd sleep with this thread.

djphranq wrote:omg. I love this thread. I had a falling out with my first Land Raider... she kept sploding on me... but I think that was mostly my fault. Now I wish I never let her go. I miss you LR. Now I have a Crusader/Redeemer LR kit waiting for me to put her together... but how could I not see the love that could have been with Land Raider Classic?

Really I love this thread. Even more then my old Land Raider. I'd sleep with this thread.

WOW! Thanx!

Hey Deadshane would you suggest taking a Chaos LR for anything?

The last game I played I took one and it worked pretty effectively, after killing an Inquisitor's MM Servitor and Dreadnaught. The only thing I had to worry about was the Eldar players two Bright Lances and I just managed to stay out of range until my CSM Squad with Meltas took out the Guardian squad and my LR and Generic Daemons killed the Wraith Lord.

PS I don't really feel like having to use Obliterators regardless of how good they are, I don't like using over the top cheese.

Oh and I really liked the Article perhaps it should become a Dakka Article.

BrotherStynier wrote:Hey Deadshane would you suggest taking a Chaos LR for anything?

The last game I played I took one and it worked pretty effectively, after killing an Inquisitor's MM Servitor and Dreadnaught. The only thing I had to worry about was the Eldar players two Bright Lances and I just managed to stay out of range until my CSM Squad with Meltas took out the Guardian squad and my LR and Generic Daemons killed the Wraith Lord.

PS I don't really feel like having to use Obliterators regardless of how good they are, I don't like using over the top cheese.

Oh and I really liked the Article perhaps it should become a Dakka Article.

The Chaos LR will work pretty much the same way accept for the fact that there is no Machine Spirit.

I would still use them in the backfield as a firebase and mobile bunker for a cheapish scoring unit.

As an assault tank...it's basically just as good as the Marine one. Meaning, it really doesnt lend itself to that role very well.

...and thanx on your approval.

I suppose I will actually make this an article.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just made an article out of it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Tactica_:_LAND_RAIDER!

Again, thanx for all the compliments guys.

If I wasn't starting a Tau army I would probably buy the Godhammer pattern Land Raider. Thanks for the tips Deadshane1.

Nice analysis and dead on in my opinion.

Jobz a gud un!

Deadshane1 wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:Hey Deadshane would you suggest taking a Chaos LR for anything?

The last game I played I took one and it worked pretty effectively, after killing an Inquisitor's MM Servitor and Dreadnaught. The only thing I had to worry about was the Eldar players two Bright Lances and I just managed to stay out of range until my CSM Squad with Meltas took out the Guardian squad and my LR and Generic Daemons killed the Wraith Lord.

PS I don't really feel like having to use Obliterators regardless of how good they are, I don't like using over the top cheese.

Oh and I really liked the Article perhaps it should become a Dakka Article.

The Chaos LR will work pretty much the same way accept for the fact that there is no Machine Spirit.

I would still use them in the backfield as a firebase and mobile bunker for a cheapish scoring unit.

As an assault tank...it's basically just as good as the Marine one. Meaning, it really doesnt lend itself to that role very well.

...and thanx on your approval.

I suppose I will actually make this an article.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just made an article out of it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Tactica_:_LAND_RAIDER!

Again, thanx for all the compliments guys.

Okay I'll have to give it another go then, I liked the way it performed last game, and it was pretty much used how you say to use it, other than having Termies start in it, then moving CSM into it after the termies assaulted.

No problem, it was a good article.

I've found if you put a single one in your list, it won't make its points back. If you put 3 in the list it will. Playing as grey knights I've tabled SM and nid players with them. Riding inside are incinerator PAGKs. Lascannons kill tansports/big bugs. Heavy bolters kill spilled transport cargo/genesteelers. If they get close with something that can actually hurt it, PAGKs jump out and flame. Then they assault. (not gene steelers, they don't survive the flame templates or 3 heavy bolter shots.)

I've had a hard time against horde orks. It does lack the volume to kill a true horde list. And unless you bring more than 3, it will have problem with immolator spam sisters. (20+ melta riding in 10+ rhino type hulls)

Nice thread. Needs a little math-hammer.

Predator with TW and sponsons lascannons.
Chance of at least 1 hit 1280/1296
Chance of at least 2 hits 1088/1296
Chance of all 3 hitting 512/1296

Land Raider
Chance of at least 1 hitting 1280/1296
Chance of both hitting 1024/1296

.... So the land raider does nearly as well as the predator but is more likely to be able to fire each turn ...

Great tactica Shane!

G

I just find that the points on a mobile "bunker" can be spent elsewhere and for cheaper.

Oh as for the "predator vs landraider debate". I side on the predator for simple value and points and ability to get cover saves as it is overall a smaller model.

250pts for a gunline base thingy.. hmm.

300pts for a AV14/14/14 scoring vehicle, Yes please!

This concept doesnt really require distractions.. although it could help. If the enemy if forced to come to you from 48" away - rather than deal with a terminator loaded crusader - alot of thier firepower is still compeletely useless against it.

3 LR's & 3 scout squads comes to 900-950. That sorts out troop scoring ability & anti-tank right there & then. Three drop pods with two Ironclads & a sternguard squad with some form of HQ (A libarian) should round it to 1500.

Anyways, good misconception busting Deadshane1!

BrotherStynier wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:Hey Deadshane would you suggest taking a Chaos LR for anything?

The last game I played I took one and it worked pretty effectively, after killing an Inquisitor's MM Servitor and Dreadnaught. The only thing I had to worry about was the Eldar players two Bright Lances and I just managed to stay out of range until my CSM Squad with Meltas took out the Guardian squad and my LR and Generic Daemons killed the Wraith Lord.

PS I don't really feel like having to use Obliterators regardless of how good they are, I don't like using over the top cheese.

Oh and I really liked the Article perhaps it should become a Dakka Article.

The Chaos LR will work pretty much the same way accept for the fact that there is no Machine Spirit.

I would still use them in the backfield as a firebase and mobile bunker for a cheapish scoring unit.

As an assault tank...it's basically just as good as the Marine one. Meaning, it really doesnt lend itself to that role very well.

...and thanx on your approval.

I suppose I will actually make this an article.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just made an article out of it.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Tactica_:_LAND_RAIDER!

Again, thanx for all the compliments guys.

Okay I'll have to give it another go then, I liked the way it performed last game, and it was pretty much used how you say to use it, other than having Termies start in it, then moving CSM into it after the termies assaulted.

No problem, it was a good article.

I run a Chaos Land Raider occasionally in my Night Lords army. I usually go with demonic possession, as it's quite frustrating to opponents and you're twin linked anyway, so any shooting you do won't be too much worse.

Anyway, I use mine as an assault vehicle to carry 10 Berzerkers into my opponent's lines. Alternately, if they're running mech, I sit back and snipe a transport or two with the lascannons and then use the berzerkers to counter assault.

Either way it has a tough time winning its points back, so it really depends on the army. Against Tau I tend to take it just so that there's a fire magnet to keep my rhinos and defiler alive a bit longer, but against an opponent with few tanks it would be 90% wasted.

The trend towards mech should breathe new life into the old Godhammer. Good article, shane.

A good friend of mine who is also a good gamer said that every SM/Chaos SM army should include a landraider. I tend to agree with him. I think two is enough at most though.

G

Guard dont have Raiders so they suck.

Wait...

Mad Rabbit wrote:

I run a Chaos Land Raider occasionally in my Night Lords army. I usually go with demonic possession, as it's quite frustrating to opponents and you're twin linked anyway, so any shooting you do won't be too much worse.

Anyway, I use mine as an assault vehicle to carry 10 Berzerkers into my opponent's lines. Alternately, if they're running mech, I sit back and snipe a transport or two with the lascannons and then use the berzerkers to counter assault.

Either way it has a tough time winning its points back, so it really depends on the army. Against Tau I tend to take it just so that there's a fire magnet to keep my rhinos and defiler alive a bit longer, but against an opponent with few tanks it would be 90% wasted.

The trend towards mech should breathe new life into the old Godhammer. Good article, shane.

I see, maybe I should try that out.

Mad Rabbit wrote:
The trend towards mech should breathe new life into the old Godhammer. Good article, shane.

I'm curious as to how you see it that way. The trend towards mech means that lists are featuring more armor-killing weaponry than ever before, and the relative mediocrity of the Godhammer for its point cost means that its performance is going to have to be exceptional in the 2-3 turns before the noose tightens. Lascannons aren't very good at stopping armor, even AV11 or 12. On average it's going to take two full turns of shooting to immobilize or destroy a Rhino or Chimera, especially if the target has cover or smoke.

I like the content on using standard LRs, I was thinking much the same thing, but had little confidence in my conclusions, having not use LRs in play previously.

One thing I do object to, but only emotionally, is the idea that Drop Pod lists are easy to beat with a castle approach. I'm nearing completion of my Imp Fist Drop Pod list, and this is not something I want to hear. But, hey, perhaps I can revitalize them with a Land Raider or two if the pods don't work.

The only other comment I have, is that it seems odd to me that people are treating Chaos Land Raiders somewhat interchangeably with Loyalist LRs.

The Chaos LR will work pretty much the same way accept for the fact that there is no Machine Spirit.

Whuh? POTMS strikes me as being the most critical element for win in the whole mix here. Without it, the tank is horribly neutered. Loyalist tank can move and shoot 2 T-L Las. Can split fire. Can shoot while stunned. HUGE increase in firepower.

No?

And, that said, rules check: I'm assuming that when it comes to POTMS, you have to declare all the shooting at once. You can't shoot at one tank, then base your other Lascannon target on the outcome of that shot, right?

Let's assume a player has two straight up landraiders and is playing an IG list with six chimeras. I know there are a lot of other factors but let's keep it simple for now as an exercise. Assume IG gets to go first, deployment is pitched battle and the two landraiders deploy on their table edge with TLOS to the chimeras. The chimeras line up 12" from their board edge and first turn move the full 12" towards the landraiders. Let's also assume the IG player is clever and tucks three chimeras behind the first three. The IG player pops smoke on the front three treads. He is now only 18" inches away. The first landraider fires his first lascannon and hits the middle chimera. 67% chance to glance or penetrate divided by 2 due to the cover save. So let's say 33% chance to glance/penetrate. If he does get past the cover save he have a 50% chance to stop the chimera on the armor table (4+). So basically 15% chance per sponson... If we multiply that by 4 then the odds are 60%. the thing is if the first shot stops a chimera then you can shoot at the other two lead chimeras. Now let's throw in both of the multi-meltas... Assume one hits and stops another chimera. So it's looking like at best you could stop two. The next turn the four remaining chimera move up with the rear chimeras moving up front and popping smoke. You must disembark to shoot and I'll assume the landraiders are screened so none of the meltaguns can get into half range. The landraiders fire again but this time their multi-meltas are more potent being in half range but again I'll assume they just stop two chimeras. So now the IG has two mobile chimeras left and if any guardsmen disembarked they were gunned down or killed in close combat... We all know guard suck in close combat. They still have those two mobile chimeras though and each has 3x meltagun inboard. It's going to be tough to stop them now as they can pull up right beside the two landraiders and disembark shredding AV14 with six meltas.

Now if the SM player is smart and has any other ranged weaponary I think it's going to be hard to pull up on those landraiders. In fact they'll probably never make it against a sound player. That's just the way it is.

G

Mad Rabbit wrote:I run a Chaos Land Raider occasionally in my Night Lords army. I usually go with demonic possession, as it's quite frustrating to opponents and you're twin linked anyway, so any shooting you do won't be too much worse.

Anyway, I use mine as an assault vehicle to carry 10 Berzerkers into my opponent's lines. Alternately, if they're running mech, I sit back and snipe a transport or two with the lascannons and then use the berzerkers to counter assault.

Either way it has a tough time winning its points back, so it really depends on the army. Against Tau I tend to take it just so that there's a fire magnet to keep my rhinos and defiler alive a bit longer, but against an opponent with few tanks it would be 90% wasted.

The trend towards mech should breathe new life into the old Godhammer. Good article, shane.

This is what my roommate does, sometimes two of them. I HATE Demonic Possession. HATE. I also look at the setup as trading PotMS for a Khorne Berserker Cannon, which is also a pain in the tail.

One Godhammer sponson: 88% chance to hit, 50% chance to pen AV12, 50% chance to immobilize/destroy on the pen table, plus a 1/6 chance to immobilize on the glance table.

That's .24 immobilized or destroyed AV12 vehicles per turn per sponson.

2 raiders firing a total of 4 sponsons should immobilize or destroy .96 Chimeras per turn. If the Chims have smoke or cover, you halve your results to .12 results per sponson, or .48 Chimeras stopped per turn of shooting.

In other words, 500 points of gun platform halts ~27.5 pts worth of AV12 transport on their first turn.

On their subsequent turns, they should begin to net roughly 1 Chimera per turn, between them. At this rate, it would take two Land Raiders approximately 10.5 turns to "make their points back". Making their points back isn't really important in 5e, but it gives you an idea exactly how steep the hill is if you're using Godhammers as transport killers.

In the meantime, two Vendettas (which actually net almost 3x the lascannon hits of a single Godhammer for equivalent points) have begun cracking Marines out of their rhinos, opening them up for the rest of the IG player's shooting.

I've been running a Tri-Raider list for a while now with my GK's, and the one Crusader just did not give me what I wanted (i.e., an assault plateform to deliever my GKT's). I finally just swapped the weapons out for third GHLR and ran my GKT's as tactical termies. And guess what happened? My 'Raiders started to survive through to end of each game. I could still load up my GKT's and PAGK's as needed for a 'Raider Rush, but I now had a better option for when I just needed to hang back and fire.

Your Tactica is spot on, Deadshane!

SJ

I like the idea of taking 2 land raiders in a guard army. With an inquisitor lord with fire base config, and a elite inquisitor with 2 mystics for the other. Don't actually deploy the Inq in them, jump some guards men into them turn one. Have the inquisitor with mystics hang out with the plasma doom leman russ. Yes that is a great deal of points. But it is awesome isn't it? The down side is I'm not sure if DH Inq LR act as GK LR. (Power of the machine spirit) I do know that they can get the old smoke. Have no idea how the rest of the list would look. Just the idea of guard with 2 land raiders, and some number of russes just makes me smile.

Before this thread deviates into arguement, let me again clarify something.

This Tactica is not about top tier armies. It's not about how to make a tier 1 Marine list.

Sourclams has made several points, all of which would be true REGARDLESS of what type of Land Raider you're taking. Godhammer (or phobos for the Fluff nutters) Crusader, OR redeemer. Statements that illustrate how the LR is ineffecient at stopping transports are beside the point.

What this thread is about is how to properly use a Standard Land Raider. If taking a LR is your thing, this is the way to do it.

LR's have always struggled with Top Tier lists. Mech guard is indeed possibly up there now with some of the really good builds.

What I would ask Sourclams, is, if you have such a problem with the views forwarded here, what is YOUR opinion on how best to run a Standard Land Raider? If your point is simply..."Don't"...then I fail to understand what your objective is in this thread.

This thread is about how to run a LR effectively, maybe not in a Tier 1 list. Maybe simply because one likes the model. Maybe because you're trying to prove something to yourself, who knows? I'm not necessarily targetting the winningest players on the circuit with this tactica. Maybe there are some people out there that could use some help with this army selection on how to run it most effectively.

Math players get so frustrated when their math doesn't work in games. On the one hand every IG list I see has a million Meltaguns riding in Chimera's. On the other hand you expect marines to take LR varients that must get close against this? Who cares if you can assault one vehcile when everything else jumps you afterwards?

Lascannon LR's have what the other LR's don't have, versatility. Each game is different and the original LR can have the tactical flexibility to either sit back and shoot or charge forward to deliver marines into the line.

I find the idea that lascannons are not good at popping transports at range laughable. There is no statistic to calculate how valuable it is for the LR to shoot at transports that can't shoot back!!!! All Multi-melta platforms must get into range to the enemy weapons to shoot, the Lascannon platforms do not because of their increased range.

Another thing to consider is that the Predator can't move at all to get more than one Lascannon to fire. The LR doen't have this problem.

It's a good tank, it's a versatile tank and it has its place in tier 1 lists.

DarthDiggler wrote:
It's a good tank, it's a versatile tank and it has its place in tier 1 lists.

Thats debatable.

I beleive it under certain circumstances. Others I know also believe it. I'm not really willing to debate it here though...its not the point.

You made some really good points though Darth.

Deadshane1 wrote:
Sourclams has made several points, all of which would be true REGARDLESS of what type of Land Raider you're taking. Godhammer (or phobos for the Fluff nutters) Crusader, OR redeemer. Statements that illustrate how the LR is ineffecient at stopping transports are beside the point.

That's not quite true. Crusaders and Redeemers are excellent vehicles able to deliver a massive assault payload while providing close-in support firepower. The primary armament of a Land Raider is the guys inside. This has been said by lots of people, not just myself. Stelek's Raider Rush 'Ard Boyz list, for example, is still quite good.

What I would ask Sourclams, is, if you have such a problem with the views forwarded here, what is YOUR opinion on how best to run a Standard Land Raider? If your point is simply..."Don't"...then I fail to understand what your objective is in this thread.

To counter the tendency of the Bandwagon crowd to start hailing the standard Land Raider as the IWIN button in Net Deck lists. This thread is getting filled with posts of 'I started shooting down rhinos and now it's awesome!' I realize that there are people who are sick of their Land Raiders dying, but even if it lives, it's still not necessarily useful due to the relative weakness of its primary armament.

This thread is about how to run a LR effectively, maybe not in a Tier 1 list. Maybe simply because one likes the model. Maybe because you're trying to prove something to yourself, who knows? I'm not necessarily targetting the winningest players on the circuit with this tactica. Maybe there are some people out there that could use some help with this army selection on how to run it most effectively.

You've created a good Tactica on how to keep it alive, and how to get some use out of its limited firepower. I've pointed out how even if it survives the entire fight it's still going to have to punch above its weight to have a lot of impact. I have no ulterior motive to ruin anyone's fun, just indicating that the elephant in the corner is still there.


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DarthDiggler wrote:
It's a good tank, it's a versatile tank and it has its place in tier 1 lists.

This is exactly what I mean. My point isn't to say DEADSHANE!!! YOUR POST SUXXORS!!! Standard Land Raiders are generally viewed as being sub-optimal, there's a reason for it, and if new players are going to get use out of a unit tactica, they have to be made aware of all the things that make a unit not a good choice as well as how to maximize its utility.

You forgot to take in account the multi-melta which I think is now a de facto standard choice for the plain Jane vanilla landraider. The heavy bolter cannot hurt chimeras and can only glance rhinos but a couple of them are good for shooting troopers.

What makes the landraider so strong is the new version of the PotMS rule. The rule is a lot better now for vanilla Space Marines.

Personally I prefer the crusader variant but I use mine for a different role. When I do break out my DW I field two plain Jane landraiders for the lascannons.

G

The multimelta is actually a pretty strong argument against the standard LR. Since you can't move and fire all three guns, if you expect to make extensive use of the multi you have to either sit stationary in which case just buy the Predator, or ignore a lascannon sponson. You're better off using a LRC and dakka-ing infantry squads while PotMS melta-ing any vehicles.

That said I'd still certainly take the multi melta, but if you intend to utilize it significantly you're better off with one of the other patterns.

Land raider spam w/ multi meltas and vulkan has worked well for me. Better than well in fact. I benched the Crusader after seeing the usefulness of the standard land raider. If only salamanders still got heir melta invulnerability...

There's not much reason to move the plain Jane landraider unless it's absolutely necessary. You can fire the multi-melta at a separate target using PotMS and still hit on a 3+. Assuming you are tracking transports brimmed full of meltas you have the edge since they'll have to move into half range first. Vulkan is extremely popular now so it's not a stretch to assume the MM will count as twin linked most of the time. To me the addition of the MM is what really makes this tank shine over the other choices. I prefer to use the crusader since I typically play assault armies but I appreciate what the standard pattern has to offer. You can't dis the MM.

G

True, however 3 Land Speeders give you 3 MM for 25 points fewer than the Raider. If you want to max out Vulkan's effectiveness, then there's better opportunities than a standard Land Raider.

Sourclams post a battle report.

Yeah I would like to see a battle report. And by the way this thread is about landraiders not speeders. Maybe you can post a new thread about how you roll with the skimmers. Pls don't take what I say as derogatory towards you mate, I always find whatever you have to say very interesting, often quite entertaining for whatever reason. I've got no beef with you.

G

Post a battle report about what? A list with a Land Raider that would be better off with speeders?

Your prowess as a tabletop general for sure.

G

sourclams wrote:True, however 3 Land Speeders give you 3 MM for 25 points fewer than the Raider. If you want to max out Vulkan's effectiveness, then there's better opportunities than a standard Land Raider.

I concur. If you're running Vulkan, the MM speeders might be a better investment. But if your focus isn't Vulkan, and yet you do have him in the list, then the standard LR w/ MM might be okay.

Why in the world would you bring Vulkan if he wasn't the focus of your list...?

Hey it's easy to see that MM/HF spedders are the red hot snizzle with Vulkan. However there are things speeders can'T do that raiders can like hold a scoring unit on an objective.

G

sourclams wrote:Why in the world would you bring Vulkan if he wasn't the focus of your list...?

Maybe you like him because he looks nifty or perhaps you want him to mostly just boost the Thunderhammers in your list.

IMHO 40k is more than simple mathhammer.

Coming up with percentages of transports stopped per turn while ignoring other factors doesnt neccessarily give an accurate prediction of what will happen during a game.

Player A has a gunline army featuring a LR using the above tactics. Also makes use of lascannons elsewere in the list, possibly Krak missles as well.

Player B is using a Mech list that needs to get in close to pop armour due to reliance on melta.

Player A deploys in a tight formation to his right/left corner within terrain so that his expensive gunline elements can claim a cover save. LR hugs the table edge along with 2 smallish squadrons of Typhoons ready to jump out from behind terrain in order to pop the lead transports of the enemy.

Player B, thanx to terrain, is forced to deploy across his center due to terrain as he wants to avoid dangerous terrain tests. Many Transports equals a large army footprint making it difficult to consolidate your army at times while at the same time being able to protect key elements of the army.

This creates a situation for player B. A portion of his force will take longer to reach player A. In addition, Player B may have to deal with Terrain, Dangerous checks possibly immobilising his Transports, Traffic Jams, or even forward elements of the opposing force.

Whether player A stole the initiative or was going first normally is irrelevant. Going first is always a little better than a 50/50 split. (going first is obviously important in a Gunline army)

Basically, mathhammer doesnt hold up all the time. There are many variables in the game. Terrain placement, Luck, going first, unforseen tactics or surprises, and other things. Saying that a landraider will stop .96 chimeras a turn doesnt really mean much when all you're considering is the twin lascannons and the front armour of the Chimera. Come up with an accurate estimation after factoring in ALL battlefeild possibilities and then maybe we can talk.

When Player B's situation looks like this:

1. First Chimera reaches optimal melta range of Land raider in 3 turns unless LR advances....barring unforseen circumstances.
2. Most distant Chimera reaches optimal melta range to Land Raider in 4+ turns barring unforseen circumstances.
3. Player A's army features long range firepower with stopping Mechanised lists in mind with a slight ability to project in case objectives need to be contested.

...when the situation is like this, you cannot simply say.... "you're stopping X amount of Chimera's a turn." Stop them? Sometimes DELAYING them is enough to wrestle a victory from your opponent.

I've won games before with LR spam where I only got a single kill point over a 7 turn game....and the victory conditions were KILL POINTS. Thats range, thats resiliancy talking.

I've also won games with the same list by Tabling opponents....firepower.

Mathhammer doesnt always cut it.

sour clams is a stone cold disciple of theory and math hammer. That is why he NEVER posts any batreps.

G

Player A deploys in a tight formation to his right/left corner within terrain so that his expensive gunline elements can claim a cover save. LR hugs the table edge along with 2 smallish squadrons of Typhoons ready to jump out from behind terrain in order to pop the lead transports of the enemy.

Okay, so if I'm playing a "typical" IG list, and based on what you have outlined for terrain and deployment:

Player B outflanks via Valks/Vendettas into player A's corner castles on Turn2, and blows up both Land Raiders. The Chimera wall keeps rolling forward.

I agree, mathhammer by itself doesn't make or break a list, but you've got to come up with something more dynamic than:

1. Create Gunline
2. Protect Gunline
3. Win

The point isn't that each sponson stops .24 Chimeras a turn, it's that you're paying 250 points for a single unit that's still vulnerable to a plethora of Str10, Lance, and Ordnance weapons, and has approximately as much firepower as a 100 point Heavy Weapon Squad that passes its Bring it Down! leadership test.

I'm reading this Tactica and wondering why I shouldn't just buy a Rhino and a triple las Predator to park on an objective. If I stick the rhino in front of the Pred, I've got 3+ cover and both my maximum and average lascannon yield is higher than the Land Raider. As an added bonus, it's cheaper and I get two tanks that my opponent has to destroy.


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Green Blow Fly wrote:sour clams is a stone cold disciple of theory and math hammer. That is why he NEVER posts any batreps.

G

I don't post batreps because I don't take pics and people tend to ignore text-only. Quite some time ago I did a writeup of a game my 4th ed Guard had against a Tau list that was about 750 words long and the only response I got was from Stelek.

At my store lots of people ask me for advice on their lists, and I win the vast majority of games that I play. In the last tournament, I got first place. ::shrug::

sourclams wrote:
Player B outflanks via Valks/Vendettas into player A's corner castles on Turn2, and blows up both Land Raiders. The Chimera wall keeps rolling forward.

I love it.

One thread you say that lascannons cannot stop Rhino's...

...the next thread your Vendetta's are Acing my LR's (plural) with no problem.

I find your arguement strewn with gaping holes in logic.

Because melta vets.. which outflank via Vendettas/Valkyries... land on your corner castles... and blow up your Land Raiders. It's an obvious counter to a corner castling gun line like what you described.

I guess I need to type more slowly. Or we can go set it up on Vassal if you want.

sourclams wrote:

I agree, mathhammer by itself doesn't make or break a list, but you've got to come up with something more dynamic than:

1. Create Gunline
2. Protect Gunline
3. Win

The same can be said about...

1. Create Mech list
2. Move out
3. Win

The point isn't that each sponson stops .24 Chimeras a turn, it's that you're paying 250 points for a single unit that's still vulnerable to a plethora of Str10, Lance, and Ordnance weapons, and has approximately as much firepower as a 100 point Heavy Weapon Squad that passes its Bring it Down! leadership test.

You're missing the point. EVERYTHING is vulnerable to those weapons. Do we simply not bring LR's then? What about the things that other vehicles have major problems with that the LR's are immune to. Lootas, Guard Autocannon spam, Scatterlaser spam, side shot Kraks or lesser shots. Assaults by anything less than Melta or Monstrous....Just because a STR 10 weapon can get thru (penetrating only 33% of the time) doesnt mean that the unit isnt resiliant. That resiliancy is a trade off for the firepower it lacks...as much as a unit that has two twin lascannons, a heavy bolter, and a MM is lacking in Firepower.

...and while the LR is still vulnerable to those weapons, the current state of the game has most people spamming melta instead of massed long range firepower. If you can take out the ranged weaponry early and make the melta's walk, delayed or dead...well...lets just say a LR (or two) running around the battlefeild with no threats is a serious problem for an army...especially if its scoring.

I'm reading this Tactica and wondering why I shouldn't just buy a Rhino and a triple las Predator to park on an objective. If I stick the rhino in front of the Pred, I've got 3+ cover and both my maximum and average lascannon yield is higher than the Land Raider. As an added bonus, it's cheaper and I get two tanks that my opponent has to destroy.

Lootas, autocannons, snikrot, mobile units that get side shots, charging BASIC troops...basically, all the ADDITIONAL things that can take advantage of the weaker armour. if they get around your save.

I guess your opponents are never able to get around your 3+ cover save. You might try playing better opponents for a more well rounded veiwpoint.



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sourclams wrote:Because melta vets.. which outflank via Vendettas/Valkyries... land on your corner castles... and blow up your Land Raiders. It's an obvious counter to a corner castling gun line like what you described.

I guess I need to type more slowly. Or we can go set it up on Vassal if you want.

Yea, I guess people NEVER see that coming....EVER. I mean, who would? It's not like you can protect your LR's with troops or table edges if you suspect something like this might happen.

I'm betting that you never show up on the wrong side either when outflanking....and dice always bring you in on turn 2 right?

I suppose the loaded rhino and lascannon pred are immune to this tactic somehow?

Look, I'm not arguing that one of the newest codexes out can beat Space Marines. You're saying that killing LR's is a foregone conclusion though. Nothing you're saying here makes any difference whether its a standard LR, Crusader, or Pred/rhino.

Mech Guard can beat a space marine list with a LR in it. Wow, what a revelation.

...and if I managed to beat your Upper Tier take all comers guard on Vassal I suppose it would be "dice".

Ad hominem. Nice. If your Land Raiders are never dying, maybe the same should be said about you?

Here's the problems with the Land Raider in its current state that your Tactica hasn't helped me adapt to:

1. It's a 250 point model, and there's plenty of high strength long range guns out there. If a Medusa crushes my rhino, who cares, I've got 5 more. If a Medusa crushes my Land Raider, then 13% of my army is gone. Same applies for Termicide, outflanking meltas, turboing bikes or speeders, and all the other stuff that isn't an IG vet squad in a chimera but is just as deadly.

2. I don't want to dedicate 1,000 points in my list to babysitting 500 points of Lascannons. That's playing not to lose in the 2/3 of missions that feature Objectives, not playing to win. In the scenario that you created solely to school the Chimera wall rush, 2 outflanking skimmers with 200 points of guys in them ace 500 points of Land Raider. Marines can make a gunline, but Land Raiders aren't that great an addition to it.

3. Vulkan Marines, Dark Eldar, Paskquisher IG, Medusas, Lance Eldar, and Wave Serpent Fire Dragons are all things that I encounter regularly that love to eat Raiders for lunch. Parking in the backfield isn't going to win it for me, and neither is "firepower" that can't stop a SMF Wave Serpent.

If you have solutions to those 3 points, then great, I will love your Tactica advice.


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Deadshane1 wrote:

I'm betting that you never show up on the wrong side either when outflanking....and dice always bring you in on turn 2 right?

I know you don't like Mathhammer, but...

An Astropath brings on 2/3 Vendettas with melta vets in them (which is a very ordinary build btw, not some custom craziness) on T2 80% of the time.

The first outflanker has a 100% chance of landing where you want it because there's two corner castles. The second outflanker has more than a 90% chance of hitting the second edge.

I suppose the loaded rhino and lascannon pred are immune to this tactic somehow?

No, but it's cheaper and requires more effort to eliminate from outflanking meltas.

Look, I'm not arguing that one of the newest codexes out can beat Space Marines. You're saying that killing LR's is a foregone conclusion though. Nothing you're saying here makes any difference whether its a standard LR, Crusader, or Pred/rhino.

Because Land Raider rush is still very viable, and plays to the strengths of Marine armies at the shorter ranges where they excel. Making a shooty gunline is not something that they're remarkable at. If I have to change an entire army's tactics to make a couple sub-optimal units shine, I don't see what the point of the Tactica is. If you just want to have your Tactica and me butt out, say so and I'll quit bringing up counterpoints.

I have to say that I found this thread enjoyable and enlightening to say the least. I hadn't even realized that PotMS granted you a shot at a different target due to my tendency to skim over small print. I use a crusader presently, and I find that it is efficient at fighting the horde armies I usually end up playing, and a LR just wouldn't have the same potential until I find some decent enemies. However, I am intrigued at the possibilities and as I had originally planned for five LRCs in my army (3 heavy support, 2 as transports for termies and assault termies), I might change at least one of them to a LR for the objective bonus.
I don't mean to get on anyone's nerves about this, but I definitely agree about there being different variables that will determine hit percentage. It's definitely not only about mathhammer, because there are so many other things which will win the game for you. My neighbour's Eldar usually lose against me because he is always freaking out at my Land Raider and wasting half his forces trying to take it out, while my footslogging troops rush forward and demolish any resistance.
Personally, I don't see why anyone would take a redeemer because they are very impractical. You will hardly ever be able to fire both flamers on the same turn, because not even the 10 year old kid I play with sometimes is stupid enough to configure his guys into an easily flamable position when I proxxy the redeemer. By the time the redeemer gets close enough to be effective, it gets power klaw'd or melted.
Anyway, thanks for the article, it has definitely changed my perspective on the regular Land Raider variant and I can't wait until I can afford one...

sourclams wrote:Ad hominem. Nice. If your Land Raiders are never dying, maybe the same should be said about you?

Whatever Clams. You say a Mech list can beat a list featuring a LR. I dont have a problem with that. I'm just saying "big deal".

... thats not ad hominem.

I suspect your entire arguement on why this tactica is no help may be "Strawman" however.

1. It's a 250 point model, and there's plenty of high strength long range guns out there. If a Medusa crushes my rhino, who cares, I've got 5 more. If a Medusa crushes my Land Raider, then 13% of my army is gone. Same applies for Termicide, outflanking meltas, turboing bikes or speeders, and all the other stuff that isn't an IG vet squad in a chimera but is just as deadly.

2. I don't want to dedicate 1,000 points in my list to babysitting 500 points of Lascannons. That's playing not to lose in the 2/3 of missions that feature Objectives, not playing to win. In the scenario that you created solely to school the Chimera wall rush, 2 outflanking skimmers with 200 points of guys in them ace 500 points of Land Raider. Marines can make a gunline, but Land Raiders aren't that great an addition to it.

3. Vulkan Marines, Dark Eldar, Paskquisher IG, Medusas, Lance Eldar, and Wave Serpent Fire Dragons are all things that I encounter regularly that love to eat Raiders for lunch. Parking in the backfield isn't going to win it for me, and neither is "firepower" that can't stop a SMF Wave Serpent.


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Deadshane1 wrote:

I'm betting that you never show up on the wrong side either when outflanking....and dice always bring you in on turn 2 right?

I know you don't like Mathhammer, but...

An Astropath brings on 2/3 Vendettas with melta vets in them (which is a very ordinary build btw, not some custom craziness) on T2 80% of the time.

The first outflanker has a 100% chance of landing where you want it because there's two corner castles. The second outflanker has more than a 90% chance of hitting the second edge.

I suppose the loaded rhino and lascannon pred are immune to this tactic somehow?

No, but it's cheaper and requires more effort to eliminate from outflanking meltas.

Look, I'm not arguing that one of the newest codexes out can beat Space Marines. You're saying that killing LR's is a foregone conclusion though. Nothing you're saying here makes any difference whether its a standard LR, Crusader, or Pred/rhino.

Because Land Raider rush is still very viable, and plays to the strengths of Marine armies at the shorter ranges where they excel. Making a shooty gunline is not something that they're remarkable at. If I have to change an entire army's tactics to make a couple sub-optimal units shine, I don't see what the point of the Tactica is. If you just want to have your Tactica and me butt out, say so and I'll quit bringing up counterpoints.

All your points are valid, and I'll answer them ALL with this.

If a player wants to use a Standard LR in a game, not a Crusader, not a Redeemer, not Speeder, and not a rhino/pred combo, THIS TACTICA will help you do it to the best of the Standard LR's abilities.

I'll tack on that using these tactics enabled me to place 9th out of LOTS at the Adepticon Championship this year...undefeated. If this tactica and that sort of placing means "FAIL" to you then I guess our definintion of a good outing are a bit different.

No, I didnt go up against Mech Guard. Maybe I was lucky. I did however see plenty of transported melta, and two of the lists I went up against were indeed Mech lists. So I dunno what to tell you. Not that local gaming means anything to anyone, but I've had good results at RTT's and pick up gaming as well.

I think if you WANT to use a Standard Land Raider in your list, this tactica is the best way to do it. Thats what I think.

Telling someone who WANTS to use a Land Raider in their list...to go and pick up 3 melta speeders instead or use a rhino/pred combo....well...I think thats a little less help to them than this tactica would be if they're dead set on using a Land Raider.

Here is the thing with landraiders and deployment. Only a n00b is going to leave them out in the open. All good mech players know that you surround the meat with the shell. It's easy to keep meltas outside of half range and then hammer them with your lascannons. A lascannon automatically glances a speeder if it hits. I personally never use spedders for up close shooting... I prefer thhe Typhoon and Tornado since they can sit back and pound away.

G

First, thanks to Deadshane1 for taking the time to write a standard LR tactica.

Second, thanks to Sour Clams for putting forth a reasonable opposition position on his tactica.

It is this sort of interplay that makes posts like this enjoyable and useful.

Like usual, I agree with Darth Diggler.

I like the Land Raider because of its utility. To simplify things greatly, when you can outshoot your opponent, it helps you sit back and add to your fire base. If your opponent can outshoot you, it helps to greatly facilitate an assault.

You can build all kinds of armies that might easily take out Land Raiders, but the fact it that the odds are highly stacked in your favor that you will not meet up with the perfect list to counter your own.

You can say that every list out there has a counter for it. Even the top tier lists can easily be beat by certain rare combinations, but you have to play the odds. Nob bikers were winning everything last year and did it matter that a Seer Council on Jetbikes can beat them?

If I go to BoLSCon, I will bring 2 Land Raiders with me.

Agreed. sour clams was trolling again.

G

I know this is a bit OT but I do think the problem with the basic land raider is it TL Las Cannons don't perform well enough to A) to reduce the transport capacity and B) cost as much as it does.

ether the LR needs a points drop (220 and match the C.LR) or lose the TL and make the God hammer a weapon in its own right (Range 48" Str9 AP 2 Heavy 2 ... or .... Range 36" Str9 AP1 Heavy 2)

You can build all kinds of armies that might easily take out Land Raiders, but the fact it that the odds are highly stacked in your favor that you will not meet up with the perfect list to counter your own.

Every single army you encounter in the second and third rounds of a tournament is going to have good counters to Land Raiders. AV14 isn't a black swan the way that Nob Bikers or Jetseer Council are; everybody expects it and plans accordingly. There isn't a single competitive list that simply says 'I'll be fine as long as I don't encounter a Land Raider!'.

Green Blow Fly wrote:Agreed. sour clams was trolling again.

G

Reading comprehension really helps your argumentative tendencies.

I know this is a bit OT but I do think the problem with the basic land raider is it TL Las Cannons don't perform well enough to A) to reduce the transport capacity and B) cost as much as it does.

Right.

sourclams wrote:Post a battle report about what? A list with a Land Raider that would be better off with speeders?

Just in general. You talk a lot of game but I've never seen you post a battle report. You realize you're turning into Stelek 2.0, but at least he posted battle reports to back up his talk (although arguably they were always rigged)

sour clams if you are not trolling then I can only conclude you don't know what you are talking about.

G

If I'm being brutally honest I don't really think any LR have a place in any list if they're not being used to transport an assault unit. That is there only use in 40K other wise they are just a point sink with no return.

I mean just look at the weapons by them selves ...

A)TL Heavy bolter and 2 TL LasCannon
Has the best range 36-48" but very little to shoot (total 5 shots)
B)TL Assault cannon and 6 TL bolters
Is mid ground 24" + 6" move
C)TL Assault cannon and 2 FlameStorms
Lowest range and has to more or less has to rely on POTMS to fire its FlameStorm.

.... All of these weapons combinations are limited compared with same points worth of anything ...

I'm not say that any type of LR is bad, but the only time that they're going to help you win is when they're doing there job.
Transporting a unit from A to B in safety.
A vanilla LR should be used the same as any other version. The guns (no matter which version you've taken) are there to help you soften up a target so your assault will go better. Thinking of them as a bad ass gun platform will get you nowhere. They are a Taxi

Deadshane1 wrote:Before this thread deviates into arguement, let me again clarify something.

This Tactica is not about top tier armies. It's not about how to make a tier 1 Marine list.
This thread is about how to run a LR effectively, maybe not in a Tier 1 list. Maybe simply because one likes the model. Maybe because you're trying to prove something to yourself, who knows? I'm not necessarily targetting the winningest players on the circuit with this tactica. Maybe there are some people out there that could use some help with this army selection on how to run it most effectively.

Thanks for the post. it was well thought out and presented your opinion backed by some meat to support it.

I get so tired of sportsmachine players talking down their nose about "The only way to play x is..." or "You never field x if you wanna win..." blah, blah, blah

Good to see a little counterbalance to that whole mindset...

Green Blow Fly wrote:sour clams if you are not trolling then I can only conclude you don't know what you are talking about.

G

Then read Tri's post, he obvoiusly doesn't know what he's talking about either.

To be honest, tri (and everyone else, as not all of this pertains to his comment), you have to remember that everything plays a very different battlefield role. The godhammer may not have the same transport carrying potential as the other patterns, and it also may not be very good at horde killing, but a Land Raider is not the only choice in an army. What you field should be varied and have hordekilling possibilities as well as the potential to take out characters, tanks, walkers, and so on. A Land Raider may not have the same capacity in terms of killing these hordes, and can't kill many models per turn, but on average, it WILL do damage to a more important part of your opponent's army. A crusader or redeemer can take out tons of little underlings as well as make it across the battlefield, but they are, with the possible exception of the multimelta and possibly the TL assault cannon, useless against killing things with an armour value or a high save. A person with a crusader or redeemer in his army will doubtless field other tanks or units with the capability to shoot down heavy stuff, while a regular LR player will field forces that can take down tons of light infantry as well. It is only logical, and a player who plays straight up heavy weapons will lose instantly to any sensible ork player with a bospole or two.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Likewise, a player who plays only anti-infantry will find himself over-run by tanks.

Personally, I ignore taking any heavy weapon capabilities, and instead settle on every squad taking a plasma pistol for monstrous creatures, and melta bombs for tanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
However, I do respect the possibilities the standard LR has to offer, and I would always try a few test runs before i put it out of the question.

Thanks for writing this up DeadShane. It really did get me thinking again about just what the LR could do other than dropping berzerkers off in my lap. It kind of makes me sad that the WH LR do not have the new machine spirit, since it would be cool to drop 50 points of storm troopers in one to sit on an objective while the girls zoom across the table with meltas. It would probably draw fire away from my exorcists nicely, and perhaps grant them some cover. I might have to give it a shot.

I also like the dialogue between opposing viewpoints on this topic. I don't find tactics posts where everyone agrees to be as helpful in my thinking as this has been. To tell you the truth this discussion has got me thinking very seriously about buying 2 regular Land Raiders for my Marines. (I only use one, but I buy things in two's) The more I envision all these IG armor 12 transports (Valk's, Vendetta's, and Chimera's), the more I really want a 250pt tank that can shoot at two different transports per turn with PotMS.

I understand the power of 3 MM Speeders (though I like 3 MM attack bikes better), however unless they are all in 1 off FA slots (ouch to the KP missions) those guys can only shoot at one target a turn. The Lascannon LR can pick out 2 targets per turn. The potential to pop 2 transports in one turn from one KP slot seems very nice.

Also since Sourclams is very adament and convincing in his argument on why the basic LR should not be taken, it might play into my overthinking opponents who will see the LR and dismiss it's potential. Eyeing it as a waste of 250pts. The key will be to fill in the rest of the list will more seemingly innocuous units whose offensive potential seems mute until unleashed together in one lists. It is the heart of my current marine list, what I call the Sea of Gizz list.

Land Raiders have different values in different armies.

In a DH force, they're one of the only sources of long-range firepower in a GK force. Or, you can stick a 50-point Stormtrooper squad inside and sit on a home objective.

For Space Wolves, they are again, a good source of long-range firepower. Sure, they're 2x the cost of a Predator, but it can shoot 2 targets. And you don't have heavy weapons in 5-man combat squads to help fill that void.

Is the LR the most effective unit? No. Is it as bad as stikkbombaz were in third edition? No.

Green Blow Fly wrote:sour clams if you are not trolling then I can only conclude you don't know what you are talking about.

G

C'mon GBF, Sourclams isn't trolling, he's presenting valid opposition to Deadshane (Shane even admitted so). If a tactica can't support itself under criticism then it's not a good tactica. Frankly, the only trolling being done is by you.

That being said, I only take GHLR's in my Deathwing army. There I need the long range anti-tank and the GHLR allows me to be flexible, charging forward if I need to or hanging back waiting to counter-assault. In my mech DA list, I'd use the Crusader over the Godhammer in just about any situation.

dietrich wrote:Land Raiders have different values in different armies.

In a DH force, they're one of the only sources of long-range firepower in a GK force. Or, you can stick a 50-point Stormtrooper squad inside and sit on a home objective.

For Space Wolves, they are again, a good source of long-range firepower.

and

Ozymandias wrote:That being said, I only take GHLR's in my Deathwing army.

I agree that both of these armies need long range anti tank options. I would point out that both are generally considered "weaker" codices that aren't often played competitively (although obviously DW/GK players can and do try). I have a GK army and I, too, run a GHLR because quite frankly it's cheaper than the alternatives. My comments are more for the Space Marine Land Raider, and for armies that can take the cheaper alternatives.

dietrich wrote:Sure, they're 2x the cost of a Predator, but it can shoot 2 targets. And you don't have heavy weapons in 5-man combat squads to help fill that void.

But then why not just take two Predators? Two Preds with TL las cost 210 points, can still move and shoot, and there's two of them. They're easier to castle around because of top-mounted turrets, and there's less risk of the one-shot-kill from lucky Railgun/Medusa strikes. Likewise Rhinos/Razorbacks with combat squadded heavies sitting in them have fire points and can shoot, whereas Raiders don't.

Again, I don't hate Shane or his Tactica, but the point of Tacticas is to help players play more competitively. And part of playing competitively involves examining all of your options, and if you can get identical or better for fewer points or with more utility, then even if you're determined to play X model you should still examine your motives for that mindset.

Ok, first let me pour out my derision, then I'll get on topic.

So, some of you are suggesting that Battle Reports, highly biased, easily rigged, and utterly subjective retellings of past events are somehow more reliable that logic and mathematics in a game based on set statistics and very consistent randomization? This is like implying that if you can't name a great poker hand you played than you aren't a good poker player. It's even funnier that Stelek was brought up given that the reason most players disliked him at first was exactly because he cited "battle experience" above the well known mathematics of the game and utilized the intellectual dishonesty of claiming generalship as so important, despite there being no good objective definition of generalship.

Frankly, I think SourClams had the gall to call out the weaknesses of the Land Raider and unable to come up with an actual rebuttal you have moved the goalposts, bringing up this comical idea that battle reports can prove anything.

Now, I am not denying that playing the battle out is important. But far more because there are synergies and tactical considerations that are hard to take into account on paper until you see them in real life. Once you have seen it though, you don't magically pull some "tactical intuition" out and win. You logically think through the situation and come up with a solution. Sometimes it is a tactical one, but other times it is a strategic change to the list or to deployment/early turn development. You have conflated the tactics of the actual in-game with the strategy behind the usage of many of these tactics. If it wasn't such a laughably transparent attempt to obfuscate your lack of argument it would telling as a common mistake made by even very good players.

**********

Now, onto the main topic. Personally, the land raider does fill a role very well. Outside of 24" it is a nigh unkillable vehicle that has a legitimate amount of firepower. The firepower is low for its point cost but this is off-set by its immense defensive abilities, with both Av14 all around and a set of defensive special abilities that keep it contributory throughout the game. However, this is primarily the problem with it too. Space marines in general do not need this role filled. They have the impressively hardy tactical marines, the powerful suicidal MMspeeders, Predator annihilators, and even dreadnaughts to provide medium to long range firepower, and these units generally synergize better into the roles that Space marine armies need than the LR, which only performs its above described role well. In many marine varients, there is a void in the role of long range, durable AT-support. In these variants, the LR is a powerful tool, as many posters have stated.

Really, nothing is wrong with the LR. It is very good at its role, capable of providing a strong backbone of AT to a list. The issue is that SM have a strong power armoured backbone already and can get numerous long range AT weapons easily and cheaply.

Both Sourclams and Deadshane have valid points about landraiders.

I may not post many battle reports but I do know for a fact that landraiders have a tendency to either blow up very early in the game or go the distance of the game. I also believe that it depends on the composition of the army that changes the role of the landraider and its efficiency. There are alot of factors as well like size of game, composition, tactics, luck, etc.

At 2500, landraiders while plentiful are looking at some armies with plenty of tank busting weaponry. Where as against demons, the landraider is the bane of that army due to a lack of a reliable anti-tank option for av 14.

Sourclams is correct that the landraider is not exactly the most efficient use of lascannons but it does have a transport capacity thus making it a force multiplier by having it sit on an objective with a scoring unit inside. A predator while boasting more firepower when taken in equal points as a landraider do not have a transport capacity and suffer from rear armor 10 and side armor 11. In HtH it will take MCs, Powerfists/claws at S9 or 10, meltabombs, and some grenades to kill a landraider.

One final point, and then I honestly think I've said everything that I can regarding GHLRs.

Calling rear armor 10 on a Predator a liability is a non-issue, because in nearly all of the situations where that matters, a Land Raider would die as well. The primary claim made earlier in the thread (although admittedly by GBF, not Shane) is that Land Raiders can be defended by "linebacker" units and therefore kept safe from 6-12" melta shots and MC assaults. If your opponent is close enough to nail rear armor 10 Predators, then he's close enough to melta your Land Raiders and your gunline fails regardless. The same can apply to side armor 11, although even I admit that this is a more disproportionate vulnerability.

thehod wrote:
...having it sit on an objective with a scoring unit inside...

Sorry but really your spending 265pts + 75 (scouts) or 90(tac) on a unit to baby sit your lines? I hope i meet some one like you. In my books your handing me the game.

Eldar Brightlance, Haywire grenades, Wraithlords, Wrathgun, Firedragons, Fireprisms and witchblades
SM Melta guns, multimeltas, Combi-melta, LasCannon, Dreadnoughts, Landspeeders, Preditors, RazorBacks, Vindicators and orbital bombardment
IG Melta guns, multimeltas, Combi-melta, LasCannon, Sentinels, Leman Russ (any with multimeltas or a lascannon), Devildog, Basilisk, medusa, Mantucore, Deathstrike, chimra and lastly the worst enemy the Vendetta
Tau Rail gun (not that you need much more then that for anit tank ... like popping zits), oh and melta
CSM meltaguns, Multimelta, LasCannon, Vindicator, Defiler, LR, Oblitorator, Preditor, Dreadnoughts,
Orks will have a little trouble with it... but you'll have more with them heavily out numbing you.
Nids Also have trouble unless a Carnifex can get to it and open it up ... again you'll have more trouble with them heavily out numbing you.
Necrons .... Destroyers, and monoliths ... they might get lucky and gauss flay you to bits.

There are too many things that can kill you. If I'm playing you and your sitting back shooting I will have brought things to reach out and touch you. AV14 is great. TL-LasCannons are great. Twelve man transport capasitity and the ability to assault after the tank has move, yes please. 250pts no thanks that's 6th of my 1500pt army. At the end of the day if i take the same number of weapons on razorbacks it'll come in cheaper by 60pts no it won't have the armour bit nether will they all be destroyed by a single lucky shot.

If you want batreps to illustrate a point, here you go…

Adepticon April 2009

Adepticon Gladiator I brought 1 Land Raider
Game #1: I faced off against 5 land Raiders and I killed only 1 with a Chainfist, mine survived.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236216.page
Game #2: We both had a Land Raider and his dies on turn #2 to Lascannons, and mine never died.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236289.page
Game #3: My Land Raider dies on turn #4 after 2 turns of getting beat on by Nob Bikers and a ton of power klaws
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236321.page
Game #4: My Land Raider survives.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236327.page
So out of the 10 Land Raiders used, 3 died.

Adepticon Invitational
Game #1: Land Raider does to Nob bikers on turn #5
Game #2: Land Raider survives
Game #3: My Land Raider kills my opponents Land Raider
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236438.page
Out of 4 Land Raiders, 2 die in much harder competition

Broadside Bash Feb. 2009
Game #4: I fought against 2 Land Raider Crusaders and I shot the crap out of them with Melta and they both survived the game.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/232549.page

Baltimore GT Nov 2008
Game #3: I shoot the crap out of his one Land Raider and because I could not kill it, it gave him the tie.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Blackmoor_goes_to_the_Baltimore_GT#Blackmoor_goes_to_the_Baltimore_GT.

Las Vegas GT Sept. 2009
No batrep because I did not face one in the GT, but the day before Jathkin and I were playing Tau in the team tournament and we faced one and we shot the crap out of it with railguns and we never killed it, but it was immobilized, running out of weapons!

So, for the national events that I went to since 5th edition has been released, I have used or I have faced off against 18 Land Raiders, and of those, 5 have died. Sure a lot of them have been chewed up, but 5th edition makes them so much harder to kill.

Blackmoor wrote:If you want batreps to illustrate a point, here you go…
...
So, for the national events that I went to since 5th edition has been released, I have used or I have faced off against 18 Land Raiders, and of those, 5 have died. Sure a lot of them have been chewed up, but 5th edition makes them so much harder to kill.

.... Yes I agree you've done well with your CHAOS LAND RAIDER .... 220pts ... or 240 with possession ignoring all stunned and shaken (ok BS3 but every things TL any way). POTMS is good, no where near as good as possession, but it cost more to have it. (Ok chaos can only fit 10 people inside but they need their space what with the spiky bits)

Blackmoor wrote:If you want batreps to illustrate a point, here you go…

Adepticon April 2009

Adepticon Gladiator I brought 1 Land Raider
Game #1: I faced off against 5 land Raiders and I killed only 1 with a Chainfist, mine survived.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236216.page
Game #2: We both had a Land Raider and his dies on turn #2 to Lascannons, and mine never died.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236289.page
Game #3: My Land Raider dies on turn #4 after 2 turns of getting beat on by Nob Bikers and a ton of power klaws
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236321.page
Game #4: My Land Raider survives.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236327.page
So out of the 10 Land Raiders used, 3 died.

Adepticon Invitational
Game #1: Land Raider does to Nob bikers on turn #5
Game #2: Land Raider survives
Game #3: My Land Raider kills my opponents Land Raider
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236438.page
Out of 4 Land Raiders, 2 die in much harder competition

Broadside Bash Feb. 2009
Game #4: I fought against 2 Land Raider Crusaders and I shot the crap out of them with Melta and they both survived the game.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/232549.page

Baltimore GT Nov 2008
Game #3: I shoot the crap out of his one Land Raider and because I could not kill it, it gave him the tie.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Blackmoor_goes_to_the_Baltimore_GT#Blackmoor_goes_to_the_Baltimore_GT.

Las Vegas GT Sept. 2009
No batrep because I did not face one in the GT, but the day before Jathkin and I were playing Tau in the team tournament and we faced one and we shot the crap out of it with railguns and we never killed it, but it was immobilized, running out of weapons!

So, for the national events that I went to since 5th edition has been released, I have used or I have faced off against 18 Land Raiders, and of those, 5 have died. Sure a lot of them have been chewed up, but 5th edition makes them so much harder to kill.

My summary of personal experience at the Adepticon Championship:

13 Land Raiders used in 3 games.

One died.
............................................

Its definatly my experience that the land raider is MUCH more than the sum of its parts or what mathhammer shows.

Shane, great thread and a perfect breakdown of the subject without having to call on numbers and percents.


//Edge

Yeah Shane stated he won all three games at the Adepticon RTT this year with a raider spam list. And no sour clams just because you can shoot the linebackers does not mean you can shoot the raiders at half range... Unless of course you can magically place your models on top of the opponents'. Maybe I missed something over in YMDC.

G

A talented player can win with a sub standard list (not that im saying a raider list is sub standard, just that an individual's wins are not always great evidence)

as for this tactica, its well written and does argue some good points for what the Godhammer pattern can do, and yet it always seems to be written in a "make the best of a bad situations"

"Oh you didnt get the best land raider, don't worry heres some tactics so it doesnt have to completely suck"


I just think the Land Raider's job and the Lascannon dont interact well, The Land raider wants to deploy close combat troops, and for that it obviously needs to get close, and yet it had mediocre long range fire power.

Hurricane bolters are mediocre but you get extra troop space and can fire them whilst moving 12 and still fire the hull mounted weapon, Redeemers are just well awesome ap 3 flamers will put a dent in any army, the Land Raider Vanilla is nice, but it pales in comparision to the more close orientated Raiders.

See, this is what I dont understand.

WHY must the landraider always transport assault troops? Does the assault ramp make this manditory or something?

Space marine "Troops" struggle to be useful in a competetive list. They just really dont do much.

What they CAN do is make an armour 14/14/14 vehicle scoring.

75pts in scouts can do this.

80pts in PA Marines can also do this.


A Standard Land Raider definatly DOES NOT want to deploy assault troops with the exception of the times that it transports a counterassault unit. What it wants is to be a heavily armoured scoring unit that is nigh impossible to destroy. One that is capable of tankshocking everything further than 3" away from an objective while its sitting pretty on top of it.

Standard Land Raiders are NOT assault tanks...thats pretty much the point that this tactica is trying to get across.

sourclams wrote:

dietrich wrote:Sure, they're 2x the cost of a Predator, but it can shoot 2 targets. And you don't have heavy weapons in 5-man combat squads to help fill that void.

But then why not just take two Predators? Two Preds with TL las cost 210 points, can still move and shoot, and there's two of them. They're easier to castle around because of top-mounted turrets, and there's less risk of the one-shot-kill from lucky Railgun/Medusa strikes. Likewise Rhinos/Razorbacks with combat squadded heavies sitting in them have fire points and can shoot, whereas Raiders don't.

Maybe you have your other 2 heavy slots filled up? Maybe your heavy slots are all filled up and you're taking a GHLR as a transport? And armies like GKs and SWs and DW don't have a tac squad or combat squad with a heavy weapon to put in a rhino or razorback, which 2/3 of those don't even have access too. GHLR isn't Bike Council good, but it's not Flash Gitz bad either.

Deadshane1 wrote:See, this is what I dont understand.

WHY must the landraider always transport assault troops? Does the assault ramp make this mandatory or something?

Space marine "Troops" struggle to be useful in a competitive list. They just really don't do much.

What they CAN do is make an armour 14/14/14 vehicle scoring.

75pts in scouts can do this.

80pts in PA Marines can also do this.


A Standard Land Raider definatly DOES NOT want to deploy assault troops with the exception of the times that it transports a counterassault unit. What it wants is to be a heavily armoured scoring unit that is nigh impossible to destroy. One that is capable of tankshocking everything further than 3" away from an objective while its sitting pretty on top of it.

Standard Land Raiders are NOT assault tanks...thats pretty much the point that this tactica is trying to get across.

Why do i think that a Land Raider is an assault tank? I don't. I think its a jack of all trades. I think it should be used to move units from A to B ... Assault units are the main type that want moving. Others would be expensive shooting unit such as sternguard (come on who doesn't like rapid firing the special issue ammunition). Heck even moving Tactical squads has its merrits.

Also... "
Space marine "Troops" struggle to be useful in a competitive list. They just really don't do much. "
... From the point of view of most other codes what are you complaining about? These guys are the great all rounder. At 16pts each (sergeant auto upgrade must be the extra 10pts) you have a stat-line that can take on other race heroes and win. Heck these guys are good enough to assault all but dedicated CC unit. Oh and if you take a full ten please take 2 free special weapons. Scout are a cheap assault unit and with infiltrate as standard they're always where you need them to tie up the enemy.

If these guys are not being competitive, in your list, you're using them wrong.

I think if you wanted to be cheeky, you could take a 5 man WH/DH stormtrooper squad to make your HS SM LR (wow acronym) scoring. Then it is just 50 points instead of 75.

Just saying

Wow...a lot happened when I wasn't looking.
I don't have much to say, but it seems here like all of you are saying you would take a Land Raider if it was cheaper. You keep on stressing the whole 250 points thing, and while no one has directly stated that it costs too much for its purpose, you have stated that it costs too much to take.
I am reasonably sure that GW has it cost that much for a reason, and is adding another 75 points for that scout squad really going to kill your roster that much?
For that 325 points, what do you get?
-one cheap scoring unit protected by AV14 all round, with possible counter-assault capabilities, in an assault vehicle.
just that by itself is almost worth it, because I have known countless times when I could have won a game if my scoring units just had a little protection, and tons of the other choices I took were useless.
now, add in the all the powerful shots the land raider can take to cripple your enemy's more powerful choices, and you have more than your money's worth. Or points worth, as it were.
Of course, this isn't mentioning that your opponent will have to waste his shots that should be spent on your advancing troops on this monstrous vehicle instead.

Tri wrote:
.... Yes I agree you've done well with your CHAOS LAND RAIDER .... 220pts ... or 240 with possession ignoring all stunned and shaken (ok BS3 but every things TL any way). POTMS is good, no where near as good as possession, but it cost more to have it. (Ok chaos can only fit 10 people inside but they need their space what with the spiky bits)

1. I posted those Batreps because Sourclams was saying that a Land Raider was not that durable, and a lot of lists can take it out. I wanted to illustrate that they are hard as heck to kill.
2. Yes it was a Chaos Land Raider at 220 points. I would gladly pay 30 points for the SM PoTMS. The ability to shoot at 2 different targets with your lascannons, move 6” and shoot both your lascannons, move 12” and fire one weapon, still fire one weapon if it is stunned or shaken, or my favorite, shoot 2 lascannons at tanks, and split fire with the heavy bolter at infantry.
3. I used my Land Raiders just the way that Deadshane suggests in his post. They are just lascannon platforms until the opponent gets close and then they use their assault capability.
4. I took a predator along with the Land Raider, and Sourclams was suggesting that a predator and a rhino are a better substitute than the Land Raider. If I was to do it all over again, I would leave the predator at home, but not the Land Raider.

Thank you for providing this tactica. I, in the excitement of jumping back into the hobby, bought a GHLR in the dying hours of 4e.

Sincethat time, my GHLR has pretty much sat the bench.

I recently played a small bought with much success using my LR and now after reading this article I can have more focus when deciding what to do next with it.

thanks

Thanks Allan! That was very nice of you. : )

G

I'll tack on that using these tactics enabled me to place 9th out of LOTS at the Adepticon Championship this year...undefeated.

Can we see the full list?

Agreed. sour clams was trolling again.

Don't do that. It looks bad for you guys when two dudes with 40K Wrecking Crew banners in their sigs are trying to shout down one guy.

I'm not trying to pick sides here, I'm just saying, let sourclams and Deadshane make their points, we can judge who's right, who's wrong, and who's a troll.

They were both doing fine. You come rushing to Deadshane's aid it makes it look like you think he needs help.

If I'm being brutally honest I don't really think any LR have a place in any list if they're not being used to transport an assault unit.

I tend to agree, but I also think that Deadshane's points can still stand to some extent. You can sit a Raider in the backfield, shoot for a couple turns, then make a move late to claim an objective.

I had a guy do this to me the other day, and I simply didn't have anything for it. I drove up an Immolator full of Dominions, 4 Meltaguns didn't bring it down, then a Dread killed the Dominions. The Raider just wandered up to my objective, barfed a hundred Blood Claws on it, and the game was a draw.

What I'm suggesting, is that not only does the Land Raider sit back and hold your objective pretty well, but it's also got a pretty good capability to go grab the other one if things progress in that direction.

Also, it's worth noting that my whole plan hinged on 4x BS4 Meltas being able to kill a Land Raider. I totally took his objective from him, and the only thing he had to get to mine was a Land Raider. 4x BS4 Meltas did nothing. I'm not sure what the odds of that were, but let me tell you, it happens.

I may not post many battle reports but I do know for a fact that landraiders have a tendency to either blow up very early in the game or go the distance of the game.

Anecdotal, but in a thread asking for battle reports, I'll report this: In my last two games I faced Land Raiders. In the last game it was Chaos, and the Raider died turn 2. In the one before that, it was Space Wolves, as I described above, and it lived the whole game.

Phryxis wrote:
Also, it's worth noting that my whole plan hinged on 4x BS4 Meltas being able to kill a Land Raider. I totally took his objective from him, and the only thing he had to get to mine was a Land Raider. 4x BS4 Meltas did nothing. I'm not sure what the odds of that were, but let me tell you, it happens.

Odds are about .22, which is very slightly higher than rolling a single 1 on 1d6. Odds of .77 are only for outright destruction, though, you're still likely to get weapon destroyed or immobilized results. It certainly can happen, but odds are heavily in favor of it not.

1-(4*(2/3*21/36*1/2))

sourclams wrote:

Phryxis wrote:
Also, it's worth noting that my whole plan hinged on 4x BS4 Meltas being able to kill a Land Raider. I totally took his objective from him, and the only thing he had to get to mine was a Land Raider. 4x BS4 Meltas did nothing. I'm not sure what the odds of that were, but let me tell you, it happens.

Odds are about .22, which is very slightly higher than rolling a single 1 on 1d6. Odds of .77 are only for outright destruction, though, you're still likely to get weapon destroyed or immobilized results. It certainly can happen, but odds are heavily in favor of it not.

1-(4*(2/3*21/36*1/2))

Thats just fuzzy math . I have had the same happen in my Ard boyz first round. faced 2 armies with 9 oblits and 12 turns of shooting only killed 2 landraiders. I was using 4 landraiders. Odds are just a number and any 40k rarely goes by math.

Great Tactica Deadshane!

Godhammers are great, but in my Deathwing I have 3 Laindraiders... 1 Godhammer, 2 Crusader...

I do have to agree on a point that landraiders are taxis for the most part. At least in my army they are. The Hurricane Bolters, Assault Cannon, and Multi-Melta are icing on the impenetrable fortress cake...

If you don't have to transport an assault oriented unit I think that Godhammers are probably the best option for the long-range firepower.

thehod wrote:

sourclams wrote:

Phryxis wrote:
Also, it's worth noting that my whole plan hinged on 4x BS4 Meltas being able to kill a Land Raider. I totally took his objective from him, and the only thing he had to get to mine was a Land Raider. 4x BS4 Meltas did nothing. I'm not sure what the odds of that were, but let me tell you, it happens.

Odds are about .22, which is very slightly higher than rolling a single 1 on 1d6. Odds of .77 are only for outright destruction, though, you're still likely to get weapon destroyed or immobilized results. It certainly can happen, but odds are heavily in favor of it not.

1-(4*(2/3*21/36*1/2))

Thats just fuzzy math . I have had the same happen in my Ard boyz first round. faced 2 armies with 9 oblits and 12 turns of shooting only killed 2 landraiders. I was using 4 landraiders. Odds are just a number and any 40k rarely goes by math.

9*2/3*1/6*1/3 = 33% chance of all 9 Oblits unloading lascannons to kill 1 Land Raider in a single turn.

Multiply by 12 turns of shooting and 9 Oblits really only kill 4 Land Raiders total (excluding glances and attrition). Add in things like smoke, cover and Oblits dying, and 4 turns into 2 pretty easily. I'd say your results are about right. Everybody knows that lascannons are horrible at killing off AV14, and your opponents are silly to sit there and try to slug away at them. If those 3 Oblits had deep struck and used twin linked melta guns, it's quite likely that they would have accomplished more.

Odds represent the likelihood of something to happen at any given time, and in my experience people who laugh at the numbers don't really understand them.

To sum up, it seems like there are 4 camps in regards to Land Raiders:

Camp #1
The Land Raider is too expensive for what it does and is not worth taking.

Camp #2
The Land Raider is used to get assault units safely into combat. The protection and durability of a Land Raider, plus the ability to get assault units 12” move+2” Disembark+6” charge=20” is a valuable tool. The best Land Raiders for this role are LR Crusaders and Redeemers.

Camp #3
The Land Raider is a good fire support unit that can keep a cheap scoring unit safe from harm, and hold an objective that your opponent would be hard pressed to kill.

Camp #4
The Land Raider is a good fire support unit that can disembark an assault unit to counter-attack when your opponent gets too close to your firebase.

I am not rushing to Shane's aid. WC members don't slap each other on the back and rubber stamp what another member says. Shane and I have discussed our differences on opinion in regard to several issues here at Dakka such as NFW and the value of a power fist in a SM tactical squad.

G

It's true, they fight like an old married couple.

First off, Deadshane, I think this Tactica is awesome, and very needed. Space Marines have so many shiny new toys, it's easy to overlook one of the old standbys.

I can't speak from experience because my wallet is delaying my deployment but my idea to use a GHLR is as the tail end of a Land Raider Spearhead convoy.

A Redeemer in front, Crusader in the middle, and Godhammer in the back. I think I'm gonna call it the Pain Train. I can move the whole thing 12" and still crank out impressive fire, then unload 20 Terminators or equivalent when I pull into Damnation Station.

The Godhammer is perfect for this role, it lays down heavy AT fire on the move, and can reach out and love something from the other side of the board after it's delivered the payload. Standing alone in a void, nothing is win. But used correctly in a supporting role, the Godhammer has as much or more potential than any unit in the codex, IMHO.

Also, I'm not sure if you noted it or not, but the Assault Cannon actually poses a credible threat to AV14 from 24" away. Especially the twin-linked variety. I had my Redeemer gibbed this weekend by a Baal Predator that I let run around for too long.

-For the Mathists:
Lascannon - 1 shot - Hit on 3, Pen on 6 - 11% chance to Pen
Assault Cannon - 4 shots - Hit on 3, Pen on 6, 5 - 4% per shot for a total 16% chance to Pen

Both go up for twin linking, of course:
Lascannon - Hit on 3 (RR3+) (88%) - Pen on 6 = 14.66% chance to pen
Assault Cannon - Hit on 3 (RR3+) (88%) - Pen on 6, 5 - 4.88% per shot = 19.5% chance to Pen

I don't like the odds of an almost 20% penetration, even if that is pretty good rolling needed. With volume, anything is possible, and while you don't get the Melta bonus, you can be out of the range of move-Flamestorm attacks at max AC range.

sourclams wrote:

thehod wrote:

sourclams wrote:

Phryxis wrote:
Also, it's worth noting that my whole plan hinged on 4x BS4 Meltas being able to kill a Land Raider. I totally took his objective from him, and the only thing he had to get to mine was a Land Raider. 4x BS4 Meltas did nothing. I'm not sure what the odds of that were, but let me tell you, it happens.

Odds are about .22, which is very slightly higher than rolling a single 1 on 1d6. Odds of .77 are only for outright destruction, though, you're still likely to get weapon destroyed or immobilized results. It certainly can happen, but odds are heavily in favor of it not.

1-(4*(2/3*21/36*1/2))

Thats just fuzzy math . I have had the same happen in my Ard boyz first round. faced 2 armies with 9 oblits and 12 turns of shooting only killed 2 landraiders. I was using 4 landraiders. Odds are just a number and any 40k rarely goes by math.

9*2/3*1/6*1/3 = 33% chance of all 9 Oblits unloading lascannons to kill 1 Land Raider in a single turn.

Multiply by 12 turns of shooting and 9 Oblits really only kill 4 Land Raiders total (excluding glances and attrition). Add in things like smoke, cover and Oblits dying, and 4 turns into 2 pretty easily. I'd say your results are about right. Everybody knows that lascannons are horrible at killing off AV14, and your opponents are silly to sit there and try to slug away at them. If those 3 Oblits had deep struck and used twin linked melta guns, it's quite likely that they would have accomplished more.

Odds represent the likelihood of something to happen at any given time, and in my experience people who laugh at the numbers don't really understand them.

You assumed that it was just lascannons but there were melta shots as well. Btw you are right about me not understanding formulas. I slept through my statistics class in college (didnt help it was at 8 am) . In the same token, those who look at the numbers then rely on numbers and not the situation. This is a game that cant be simplified down to numbers.

I have to do all Hod's math for him.



G

thehod wrote:
You assumed that it was just lascannons but there were melta shots as well. Btw you are right about me not understanding formulas. I slept through my statistics class in college (didnt help it was at 8 am) . In the same token, those who look at the numbers then rely on numbers and not the situation. This is a game that cant be simplified down to numbers.

Statistics inform your decision, they don't make the decision for you. Statistics are part of the situation, not something separate from it.

If the game hinges on me destroying two opposing Land Raiders in this turn, I want to know statistically what I need to bring to bear on each to accomplish that goal. Then I position my units accordingly.

Again, statistics just inform your decision. Not knowing statistics is like not knowing the strength of your weapon, not knowing the armor value of the opposing vehicle, and then shooting it anyway.

You have to know the stats for movement, simple as that. You have to move everything before you start shooting.

Knowing the odds means you know ~roughly~ what weight of fire will bring it down. This lets you inform your decisions during the movement phase. If you've never played an army that hinged on positioning, you might not understand this, but as so many people are getting mech and mobile, it's time to start paying attention. When you're extended into the enemy lines, you need to be efficient with your firepower. Bring too much fight, and you find yourself wasting potential and allowing a huge counterstrike. Bring too little, and you never accomplish your goals for the turn.

Statistics are for letting you, the general, understand when something is a potential game-breaker, and when it's a waste of time. I'll bet you use it more than you even realize. For instance, when was the last time you moved your 4 boltgun-armed marines to shoot at the frontplate of a charging Rhino?

Hopefully never, because math says Str 4 + 6 = 10 which is < FA 11. BUT, if you have a plasmagun and plasma pistol, of course you will, because you know Str 7 + 4 = 11, which means that half the time, you will at least glance it (rolling a 4 to glance, 5+ to pen).

See? Statistics just helped you understand correct target priority!

Math, it's what's for dinner. Oh, and bullets, can't forget the side of bullets.

Looks like this one has been beaten to death.

G

What I would love to see is what a 1500pt 3 Land Raider list would look like =D

Thanks,
Chappy P!

Deadshane1 wrote:
The predator can POTENTIALLY get 3 hits, now this tactica isnt going to go into numbers, but personally, I do not like to rely on chance or "hope" during a battle. You can essentially count on the Predator to get two hits with lascannons on a single target. However, the armour of the Predator, while considerable, is weaker, making it susceptable to a wider range of enemy firepower. More on this later, however, if your Predator is stunned its return fire will be NOTHING.

When you consider the LR, you have a VERY good chance of a solid 2 hits with lascannons.

The odds of three hits are pretty good. The odds of getting 2or3 hits is better than the odds of getting 2 with the LR. Why not go into numbers?

The LR's strength relative to the Pred is it's armour and PotMS, not it's weapons.

Tri-Las predator 24/36+24/36+32/36 = 2+8/36 (2 and a bit hits on average)
Chance of 0 hits = 0.01
Chance of 1 hit = 0.15
Chance of 2 hits = 0.44
Chance of 3 hits = 0.40

GHLR has 32/36+32/36 = 1+28/36 (just under two hits on average)
Chance of 0 hits = 0.01
Chance of 1 hit = 0.20
Chance of 2 hits = 0.79
Chance of 3 hits = 0

for between 1470-1500 you can get this

HQ

Grey Knight Grand Master

ELITE

Inquisitor and 2 Mystics-Dedicated Land Raider
Inquisitor and 2 mystics-Dedicated Land Raider

TROOPS

(5) Storm Troopers
(5) Storm Troopers

HEAVY

Grey Knight Land Raider
Grey Knight Land Raider
Grey Knight Land Raider




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Scott-S6 wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:
The predator can POTENTIALLY get 3 hits, now this tactica isnt going to go into numbers, but personally, I do not like to rely on chance or "hope" during a battle. You can essentially count on the Predator to get two hits with lascannons on a single target. However, the armour of the Predator, while considerable, is weaker, making it susceptable to a wider range of enemy firepower. More on this later, however, if your Predator is stunned its return fire will be NOTHING.

When you consider the LR, you have a VERY good chance of a solid 2 hits with lascannons.

The odds of three hits are pretty good. The odds of getting 2or3 hits is better than the odds of getting 2 with the LR. Why not go into numbers?

The LR's strength relative to the Pred is it's armour and PotMS, not it's weapons.

Tri-Las predator 24/36+24/36+32/36 = 2+8/36 (2 and a bit hits on average)
Chance of 0 hits = 0.01
Chance of 1 hit = 0.15
Chance of 2 hits = 0.44
Chance of 3 hits = 0.40

GHLR has 32/36+32/36 = 1+28/36 (just under two hits on average)
Chance of 0 hits = 0.01
Chance of 1 hit = 0.20
Chance of 2 hits = 0.79
Chance of 3 hits = 0

For 10 more points (that space marines ALWAYS spend on LR's anyway), the Land raider hits 3 times a turn. And it does so easier, and sometimes HARDER than the pred.

But, the pintle MM needs it to get into melta range. Staying outside that is the the GHLR's main strength.

For reference, odds of three hits (2xTLLC+MM) is 0.53

Since I already had my calculator out, chances of killing or immobilising vehicles:

Tri-Las pred
AV10 = 0.99
AV11 = 0.80
AV12 = 0.62
AV13 = 0.43
AV14 = 0.24

LR
AV10 = 0.79
AV11 = 0.64
AV12 = 0.49
AV13 = 0.35
AV14 = 0.20

Scott-S6 wrote:But, the pintle MM needs it to get into melta range. Staying outside that is the the GHLR's main strength.

For reference, odds of three hits (2xTLLC+MM) is 0.53

Since I already had my calculator out, chances of killing or immobilising vehicles:

Tri-Las pred
AV10 = 0.99
AV11 = 0.80
AV12 = 0.62
AV13 = 0.43
AV14 = 0.24

LR
AV10 = 0.79
AV11 = 0.64
AV12 = 0.49
AV13 = 0.35
AV14 = 0.20

Interesting, a LR has more of a chance to kill the Predator than the Predator DESIGNED to stop heavy tanks has to stop the LR or even keep it from firing back.

...and yes it SHOULD considering the add'l points you pay but it also retains the resiliancy and the transport capacity that the pred does NOT have.

The tri-las pred has better anti-armour firepower.

However, considering the difference in cost is not huge and the transport + armour + PotMS... In particular, there is a big difference in firepower when moving.

Tri-Las preds are over-costed - I wouldn't use them outside of 3K+ games. I have used a LRGH before although I have regretted it vs a Redeemer on a number of times. I've never taken a redeemer and wished it were a godhammer.

For what it's worth I think Deadshane is right about the utility of Phobos Pattern Land Raiders, and it's good to see him trying to figure out how to use them.

Deadshane1 wrote:Interesting, a LR has more of a chance to kill the Predator than the Predator DESIGNED to stop heavy tanks has to stop the LR or even keep it from firing back.

Well, if you're doing head-to-head comparisons then you have to factor in points cost... it'd be two Predators versus one Land Raider, which would put the Predators on top again.

Odds of either of them destroying each other is still pretty bad, though. It'd be a multi-turn slugging match, and the Land Raider *should* come out on top because it can keep driving forward until it comes into melta range, which would be a decisive advantage. Those are intagibles where theoretical modeling begins to fall apart.

And I'm pretty sure the Crusader with a MM outperforms the standard Land Raider in such a scenario anyhow.

Scott-S6 wrote: I've never taken a redeemer and wished it were a godhammer.

Wait till it gets immobilised in your backfeild.

Redeemers are horrible. (thats a personal opinion)

sourclams wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:Interesting, a LR has more of a chance to kill the Predator than the Predator DESIGNED to stop heavy tanks has to stop the LR or even keep it from firing back.

Well, if you're doing head-to-head comparisons then you have to factor in points cost... it'd be two Predators versus one Land Raider, which would put the Predators on top again.

Odds of either of them destroying each other is still pretty bad, though. It'd be a multi-turn slugging match, and the Land Raider *should* come out on top because it can keep driving forward until it comes into melta range, which would be a decisive advantage. Those are intagibles where theoretical modeling begins to fall apart.

And I'm pretty sure the Crusader with a MM outperforms the standard Land Raider in such a scenario anyhow.

How ya figger, trigger?

Tri-Las Predator is 165-180 points depending on kit. Times two is ~ one hundred points more than the single Land Raider.

Though, on a side note, the LR can engage both targets at the same time, at least nominally.

Odds of 2 predators (120pts each TL lasCannon + extra armour) of killing one LR (250pts) ( 4/81, 4.9% each tank) (632/6561, 9.6% together)

Chance of a LR killing the predators (using POTMS to hit both of them) ( 8/81 each shot) (1232/6561, 18% kill at least one tank)(64/6561, 0.97% kill both tanks)

So ... LR is more likely to kill off at least one predator then its of being killed off. Without over analyzing which ever side gets off the first shots is more likely to win.


edit other version I forgot is ...
Odds of 2 predators (135pts each sponson TL lasCannon + extra armour) of killing one LR (275pts multi melta + extra armour) ( 1/27, 3.7% each shot) ( 74465/531441, 14% all together)
...

I run a BA list with 2 land raiders containing 2 5 man termie assualt squads, and more often then not my oppenents ignore the rest of my army until it is to late, then when they turn to deal with my assualt squads and land speeders the land raiders, which somehow survive that tank is tough to kill never mind with a brother, can start hitting targets of oppertunity. No my list is not top teir ultimate killy, so far i either tear apart my oppenent or things just go all bad for me right away, but it does work and it is fun, so I guess I am saying take 2 and your oppenent will have to deal with them, and with the amounts of hits those things can take, it will leave a lot of your other nasty units unmolested to get is and cause havok.

Blackmoor wrote:To sum up, it seems like there are 4 camps in regards to Land Raiders:

Camp #1
The Land Raider is too expensive for what it does and is not worth taking.

Camp #2
The Land Raider is used to get assault units safely into combat. The protection and durability of a Land Raider, plus the ability to get assault units 12” move+2” Disembark+6” charge=20” is a valuable tool. The best Land Raiders for this role are LR Crusaders and Redeemers.

Camp #3
The Land Raider is a good fire support unit that can keep a cheap scoring unit safe from harm, and hold an objective that your opponent would be hard pressed to kill.

Camp #4
The Land Raider is a good fire support unit that can disembark an assault unit to counter-attack when your opponent gets too close to your firebase.

And a 5th, the reason I use a standard Land Raider:

It is the only way a Grey Knights unit can threaten another heavy vehicle outside of close combat.

Also, those Lascannons are pretty nice at frying powerful characters with only Toughness 4 if the enemy doesn't have a lot of vehicles to worry about.

In hindsight there are only 3 Camps.

People in Camp #3 use it as a gun platform, and to use it either to house a cheap scoring unit, or a counter assault unit is both subsets of 3.

Mattlov wrote:

And a 5th, the reason I use a standard Land Raider:

It is the only way a Grey Knights unit can threaten another heavy vehicle outside of close combat.

Also, those Lascannons are pretty nice at frying powerful characters with only Toughness 4 if the enemy doesn't have a lot of vehicles to worry about.

You use it as a gun platform so you are in camp 3, although there are many Demonhunter players in Camp #2 like Centurian99 who use it to get their Grey Knights into assault.

Eh, if I played Daemonhunters I would play the Crusader variant every time (Not unlike vanilla Marines, although for different reasons). Can the DH players explain why they prefer the vanilla Raider over their Crusader?

AgeOfEgos wrote:Eh, if I played Daemonhunters I would play the Crusader variant every time (Not unlike vanilla Marines, although for different reasons). Can the DH players explain why they prefer the vanilla Raider over their Crusader?

Its simple the only place they can get any anti tank weapons is in the Heavy support section and that is only really two choices a vanilla LR or a Dreadnought

Tri wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:Eh, if I played Daemonhunters I would play the Crusader variant every time (Not unlike vanilla Marines, although for different reasons). Can the DH players explain why they prefer the vanilla Raider over their Crusader?

Its simple the only place they can get any anti tank weapons is in the Heavy support section and that is only really two choices a vanilla LR or a Dreadnought

Eh, or a Crusader that can;

Move 12 every turn and fire it's MM at an E tank and it's Hurricane Bolters at enemy infantry
Pop DH smoke which reduces all penetrating hits to glances that turn

*Shrug*, seems like a hell of a deal to me

Bit of a difference between having a range 48" anti tank gun and a range 12" anti-tank gun (meltas only really work within half range)

Tri wrote:Bit of a difference between having a range 48" anti tank gun and a range 12" anti-tank gun (meltas only really work within half range)

Crusader moves 12 + 12 = 24 inch 2d6 pen +1 damage range. Or 36 inch 1d6 + 1 Damage Chart range. Las Cannons are 'ok' with the new damage charts but in most cases it's better to have MM...even outside of 2d6 range. Example against Chimera;

Las Cannon hits:
50% chance to pen
33% chance to wreck/explode

MM hit:
33% chance to pen
50% chance to wreck/explode

MM can also wreck on a glance, whereas a Las Cannon cannot. Las Cannons do have range on MM but this is somewhat mitigated by a Crusader that can move 12" a turn and still take a shot (While lighting up enemy infantry at the same time). Add in super smoke and I would consider it a done deal. I will admit that against certain Eldar mech, Speeders or Necron Lith spam the las cannon has it's benefits.

I am a big fan of the crusader and never run Phobos pattern anymore. The crusader is the best assault vehicle in the game hands down. It always has been.

G

I know a list was posted for an Inquisitorial army with three land raiders, what would a decent 1500pt marine in land raider list look like??

Thanks again,
Chappy P!

I'm a GK player. The only issue I have with the GK LRC is that I have no choice but to close in order for it to be useful. At least with a GHLR, it can sit back if needed or close if needed; a LRC does not have that option.

I have the exact same issue with the LRR, and I have played GK's with LRR's quite extensively in order to test them out. Redeemers, like Crusaders, have no choice but to close in order to be useful which limits their utility in a pure GK list (GK's need to stay flexible in a tournament environment, as our options are few and therefore need to be effective in all games).

That said, I'd found that unless I'm intending to assault with my GKT's, a GHLR is a better buy than a LRC in most games. Where the GK LRC shines is versus non-'Nid horde armies, and that is about it.

SJ

Looks like this thread has finally run it's course.

G

The crusader is the best assault vehicle in the game hands down. It always has been.

I assume you say so because of the capacity?

Cause I'd take Flamestorms over Hurricane Bolters any day...

Capacity is the big reason IMO. Having a more guys rather than fewer definitely helps in the assault, and there's a big difference between 12 Blood Claws and 16 Blood Claws.

Deadshane1 wrote:...What I would ask Sourclams, is, if you have such a problem with the views forwarded here, what is YOUR opinion on how best to run a Standard Land Raider? If your point is simply..."Don't"...then I fail to understand what your objective is in this thread.

This thread is about how to run a LR effectively, maybe not in a Tier 1 list. Maybe simply because one likes the model. Maybe because you're trying to prove something to yourself, who knows? I'm not necessarily targetting the winningest players on the circuit with this tactica. Maybe there are some people out there that could use some help with this army selection on how to run it most effectively.

This highlights the biggest problem with many people on gaming forums. There seems to be a mentality that you're only allowed to post on internet forums if you're hoping to achieve the most WAAC tournament list ever and that "casuals" have no business on the internet (except maybe the painting and modelling forum). I would suggest that the majority of gamers play the majority of their games in a non-tournament setting. Surely a majority of the majority is allowed to share thoughts and ideas too?
I have been playing 40K for about 20 years and have never played in a tournament, but I'm still interested in reading other people's thoughts and ideas, developing new tactics, considering new concepts and generally sharing my experiences. I'm still looking for thoughts on how I can field Sky Claws more effectively, besides the "don't" - which I've already heard.

@karlosovi Look at the date of the post above you. Now look at the date of your post. Surprised?

sourclams wrote:You've created a good Tactica on how to keep it alive, and how to get some use out of its limited firepower. I've pointed out how even if it survives the entire fight it's still going to have to punch above its weight to have a lot of impact. I have no ulterior motive to ruin anyone's fun, just indicating that the elephant in the corner is still there.
...
Standard Land Raiders are generally viewed as being sub-optimal, there's a reason for it, and if new players are going to get use out of a unit tactica, they have to be made aware of all the things that make a unit not a good choice as well as how to maximize its utility.

That is a great point, but you've made it now so your work here is done.

Deadshane1 wrote:IMHO 40k is more than simple mathhammer.

Coming up with percentages of transports stopped per turn while ignoring other factors doesnt neccessarily give an accurate prediction of what will happen during a game.
...
Mathhammer doesnt always cut it.

More people need to consider this.

Manimal wrote:First, thanks to Deadshane1 for taking the time to write a standard LR tactica.

Second, thanks to Sour Clams for putting forth a reasonable opposition position on his tactica.

It is this sort of interplay that makes posts like this enjoyable and useful.

Well summed up, but you forgot to mention:

Black Blow Fly wrote:Agreed. sour clams was trolling again.

Third, thanks to Black Blow Fly for trolling about trolling

Thread is being locked due to thread necromancy.