Chosen Praetorian wrote:Ive been taking a list with 2 units of:
Canoness 65pts
Infero pistol
Sororitas Command Squad 185pts
3x Meltaguns Rhino with a dozer blade
Thats 250pts (500pts for 2) for 4 melta weapons with FnP. Ive been fighting SW, Necrons and Tau (Not the greatest lineup) and have been fairing pretty well.
Really? 500 points for 2 units. We're talking Landraider costs for 4 melta weapons, only 2 of which can fire out. As you listed below, you can buy 2 5 Girl Dominions with Immos for that cost. That's crazy.
I dont see why everyone loves Uriah Jacobus. He allows you to reroll for faith points, gives +1 attack and FnP to a unit. I never rely on faith tests because your average unit will pass on a 4+. The +1 attack and FnP is only good for Death Cult assassins which suck in this codex due to low armor non assault vehicle transports. At best youll get mid field and cry when your transport explodes and you eat S5 stormbolter fire. At the worst youll explode in your deployment area and eat S5 stormbolter fire as you dont even make it mid field. If theres something here that im missing with him, please let me know.
Umm. That's great in theory, but bad in practice. My DCA have only failed to assault in one game and it was against Orks. In every other game (including plenty against GK), I have ripped multiple units apart with Jacobus and crew. Including an assault with Celestine against a full purifier squad with Bro Champ and Techmarine with Psychotrope through cover so I swung last. Conclaves are ridiculously good and Uriah makes them even better. There is no contest between 250 points of Conclave and 250 points of Canoness + Command Squad.
IMO the best units in this book are the scouting dominion squads. 210pts for 10 sisters with 4 meltaguns in a rhino or 125pts for 5 sisters with 2 melta guns in a rhino. This book can bring more meltaguns than any other army. And you can leave the heavy slot open to the retributors for anti infantry with heavy bolters or heavy flamers.
No disagreement on the Dominions. They are key. I can't deal with Rets right now though because of faith issues. That and I'm in love with Exorcists.
I also love the Exorcists. It makes paladins cry and rips open light armor. And the Canoness squad is a bit expensive but the cheapness of everything else makes up for it. How are you getting the DCA across the field?
If you go first i see it playing out like this.
Turn 1: Move rhino 12 inches forward and pop smoke, if its DoW then move 12 inches on and try to get cover from terrain.
Opponents turn 1: Does a threat assesment and sees that if your DCA get in his face it could suck hard so he puts shots into it and gets at least a stunned result. If its DoW he moves on for good cover or pops smoke and ends.
Turn 2: Rhino at best was just stunned, at worst was exploded. If your opponent is halfway intelligent (and good wargame practice says we are supposed to assume that he is a master strategist) then he put some distance between himself and your DCA so a turn 2 assault should be out of the question seeing as how your probably going to have to take at least on if not two difficult terrain tests. If it was DoW move another 12 inches forward and pop smoke.
Opponents turn 2: If your rhino wasnt at least wrecked then he can put a few more shots into it and take care of the job. He then proceeds to shot your DCA in the face. If he did wreck it turn one then all he has to do is take care of the DCA. If it was DoW then he will have to put a few more rounds into your rhino due to smoke.
If your opponent has gone first i dont see how that rhino made it out of the deployment zone.
I just dont see how this plays out any other way. Is your opponent not shooting at your rhino? Are you getting lucky and making your cover saves? Why are they allowing a high priority target to live? If it walks through as many squads as you claim then it should be very high on the list of "things that need to die." And it sounds like you got very very lucky against the purifier squad.
If youre fighting guard and he has taken any Colossi (which im starting to see more and more of) then that unit is pretty much worthless against S6 no cover allowed. If your fighting GK or SW then they usually have the number of shots to get through anything. Can you give me a rundown on how youre playing this expensive slow unit?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jancoran wrote:
Spidey0804 wrote:LOL that mean your coming to NOVA? Anyways Ill be representing us there.
If i could paint worth a damn it would be worth going to NOVA. I don't. So it's not. I win best General awards like they are going out of style, but wins elude me becasuse of my paint scores. I went to a couple GT's and was just deflated by the paint/conversion scoring there. A recent local tourney just added fuel to my feeling that this can sometimes be more about how steady you are than how good a General you are.
Thats a lot of travel expenses for me to spend, just to learn what I already know: I'm average at the best of times when it comes to paint.
I can root you on though. THIS I can do.
I absolutley agree 110%. I think overall should go to best general and best general should turn into best painted. How well i paint does not change how well i play. I hate painting scores.
Chosen Praetorian wrote:How are you getting the DCA across the field?
Rhino with Dozer Blade. 40 points.
To be more specific, it is sitting behind 1-2 Dominion Immolators which are scouted forward and probably one or both is smoked. All of what you wrote is very true in theory, but seldom works in practice. In practice, the Conclave rhino moves forward, maybe gets popped, maybe doesn't. If it gets popped, chances are that your opponent is within 12" of it since you moved it centrally. If your opponent is completely ceding the middle of the board to you, then bully on him.
In multiple games, my opponent has (wisely) targetted the Rhino and either popped it or stopped it. Fortunately, 4+ Cover with 4+ FNP is pretty nasty and with the exception of the Orks I played, they had to be somewhere mid-board in order to play the game and get to me. That means Uriah got to play. In several games, I weathered fire for a turn while they got in position, but they got there.
If your opponent has gone first i dont see how that rhino made it out of the deployment zone.
SOB armies always have cover, regardless of who goes first. If you don't go first, move your Dom immos to block LOS and pop smoke. Simple
I just dont see how this plays out any other way. Is your opponent not shooting at your rhino? Are you getting lucky and making your cover saves? Why are they allowing a high priority target to live?
You can only kill so much in a given turn. They focus fire on the Rhino, but you can only put so much into one vehicle before the rest of my army laughs and rolls you over.
And it sounds like you got very very lucky against the purifier squad.
Celestine + Conclave was lucky? Not really. Everything on my side has invuls, Uriah stayed purposefully out of combat by being strung behind. Celestine is 6 attacks with rerolls hitting on 3's and wounding on 4's before anyone else swings. Then he swings. Then I swing back. Grenades gave me Ld 2, which I was stubborn so whatever. I lost the first turn of combat and ground him down in the second one.
If youre fighting guard and he has taken any Colossi (which im starting to see more and more of) then that unit is pretty much worthless against S6 no cover allowed. If your fighting GK or SW then they usually have the number of shots to get through anything. Can you give me a rundown on how youre playing this expensive slow unit?
It isn't that expensive. 135 for the DCA, 90 for Jacobus and 40 for the rhino. Anyways, it is a counter-charge unit. You keep it with your wall o' rhinos, Occupy the Middle of the Board and kick the crap out of anyone who comes anywhere near it. You can avoid Jacobus, but if you do you're giving up a big chunk of board. If you don't have a deterrent, then your sisters will get rolled by anything with S4 and a dream.
Is it unstoppable? No, of course not. Is it better than 4 meltaguns for 250 points? Absolutely yes. You need a countercharge unit.
Chosen Praetorian wrote:How are you getting the DCA across the field?
Rhino with Dozer Blade. 40 points.
To be more specific, it is sitting behind 1-2 Dominion Immolators which are scouted forward and probably one or both is smoked. All of what you wrote is very true in theory, but seldom works in practice. In practice, the Conclave rhino moves forward, maybe gets popped, maybe doesn't. If it gets popped, chances are that your opponent is within 12" of it since you moved it centrally. If your opponent is completely ceding the middle of the board to you, then bully on him.
In multiple games, my opponent has (wisely) targetted the Rhino and either popped it or stopped it. Fortunately, 4+ Cover with 4+ FNP is pretty nasty and with the exception of the Orks I played, they had to be somewhere mid-board in order to play the game and get to me. That means Uriah got to play. In several games, I weathered fire for a turn while they got in position, but they got there.
If your opponent has gone first i dont see how that rhino made it out of the deployment zone.
SOB armies always have cover, regardless of who goes first. If you don't go first, move your Dom immos to block LOS and pop smoke. Simple
I just dont see how this plays out any other way. Is your opponent not shooting at your rhino? Are you getting lucky and making your cover saves? Why are they allowing a high priority target to live?
You can only kill so much in a given turn. They focus fire on the Rhino, but you can only put so much into one vehicle before the rest of my army laughs and rolls you over.
And it sounds like you got very very lucky against the purifier squad.
Celestine + Conclave was lucky? Not really. Everything on my side has invuls, Uriah stayed purposefully out of combat by being strung behind. Celestine is 6 attacks with rerolls hitting on 3's and wounding on 4's before anyone else swings. Then he swings. Then I swing back. Grenades gave me Ld 2, which I was stubborn so whatever. I lost the first turn of combat and ground him down in the second one.
If youre fighting guard and he has taken any Colossi (which im starting to see more and more of) then that unit is pretty much worthless against S6 no cover allowed. If your fighting GK or SW then they usually have the number of shots to get through anything. Can you give me a rundown on how youre playing this expensive slow unit?
It isn't that expensive. 135 for the DCA, 90 for Jacobus and 40 for the rhino. Anyways, it is a counter-charge unit. You keep it with your wall o' rhinos, Occupy the Middle of the Board and kick the crap out of anyone who comes anywhere near it. You can avoid Jacobus, but if you do you're giving up a big chunk of board. If you don't have a deterrent, then your sisters will get rolled by anything with S4 and a dream.
Is it unstoppable? No, of course not. Is it better than 4 meltaguns for 250 points? Absolutely yes. You need a countercharge unit.
I would like to fight this but as im the only sisters player in my area (if not the whole state) then i doubt thatll happen anytime soon. I see your point about needing a counter charge unit but i dont see how this unit can be it without an assault vehicle. Ill have to give them a go at some point. Maybe they look better on the field than they do on paper. And out of curiosity, if this list is so good then why doesnt it see top spots in big tourneys very often? I havent heard of sisters topping in a few months.
Chosen Praetorian wrote:Maybe they look better on the field than they do on paper. And out of curiosity, if this list is so good then why doesnt it see top spots in big tourneys very often? I havent heard of sisters topping in a few months.
They look pretty amazing on paper (they can pretty much mathhammer anything to death), so if anything they're a bit worse on the field. It's important to remember that with FNP the 5++ on an assassin is an effective 3+ save. So even outside of the Rhino they're going to be able to weather some shooting. And if they're dumping plasma or high S shots into your squad you're already winning. It's also worth noting that Uriah's +1A and re-roll means that you really only need 3 or 4 DCAs to wipe out most squads.
Why aren't Uriah-bomb Sisters armies winning all the GTs? Probably because there are a grand total of about 7 SoB players in the world and we all just sit around on Dakka talking about how great Uriah-bombs are.
Chosen Praetorian wrote:Maybe they look better on the field than they do on paper. And out of curiosity, if this list is so good then why doesnt it see top spots in big tourneys very often? I havent heard of sisters topping in a few months.
They look pretty amazing on paper (they can pretty much mathhammer anything to death), so if anything they're a bit worse on the field. It's important to remember that with FNP the 5++ on an assassin is an effective 3+ save. So even outside of the Rhino they're going to be able to weather some shooting. And if they're dumping plasma or high S shots into your squad you're already winning. It's also worth noting that Uriah's +1A and re-roll means that you really only need 3 or 4 DCAs to wipe out most squads.
Why aren't Uriah-bomb Sisters armies winning all the GTs? Probably because there are a grand total of about 7 SoB players in the world and we all just sit around on Dakka talking about how great Uriah-bombs are.
Haha Uriah-bombs sounds like an STD. And on paper i still just see them getting blow away by S5 storm bolters. But like i said, ill give them a try. And Im now glad to be part of the 7!... Too bad i also have SW and GK
Chosen Praetorian wrote:Haha Uriah-bombs sounds like an STD.
Oh god! That sounds terrible!
Chosen Praetorian wrote:And on paper i still just see them getting blow away by S5 storm bolters. But like i said, ill give them a try.
If you run the numbers, a GK Strike Squad (10 man) with Psybolts and a Psycannon will kill about 4 members of the Conclave. I'm assuming all DCAs because I'm lazy. That number probably drops by 1 or 2 if you have a few Crusaders and allocate one or two hits on Uriah. So from just bolter shots, you'd have to dump a ton of shooting into them. Think at least two full Strike Squads, which is about 600 pts.
If you think about them in that context you have your enemy putting 1/3 of his army (in an 1850 list) to kill 1/9 of your army. That'd be ok, if Sisters didn't have a boat load of other mid-field threats that need to be handled as well. So if your Conclave gets to fight, the bad guys just evaporate. If they don't, then your enemy has probably over-committed trying to kill them. They're not an auto-win, but they are exceptionally points efficient.
Amerikon wrote:
Why aren't Uriah-bomb Sisters armies winning all the GTs? Probably because there are a grand total of about 7 SoB players in the world and we all just sit around on Dakka talking about how great Uriah-bombs are.
To be fair, I dont use a Uriah bomb. I dont even use Uriah. =)
I completely agree with Amerikon. Not enough players. When it costs you a grand to get a 2000 point army, you aren't likely to see a lot of them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jancoran wrote:
Amerikon wrote:
Why aren't Uriah-bomb Sisters armies winning all the GTs? Probably because there are a grand total of about 7 SoB players in the world and we all just sit around on Dakka talking about how great Uriah-bombs are.
To be fair, I dont use a Uriah bomb. I dont even use Uriah. =)
pretre wrote:
Yeah, but you are intentionally unorthodox.
That's the impression some have, yes. That doesn't change the fact that the army can win perfectly fine without Uriah and doesn't even have an inherently lower chance for having done so.
My philosophy on him is that he's too much of a good thing when you look at the way I built my Conclave. I already have 6 out of 10 models with FnP or a great save and they already win on the charge a lot. I don't want them getting shot in the enemies phase. Uriah ends that way too often. Since the Conclave is asked to do so much, they usually die eventually so why make losing 2 KP effectively inevitable? Seems like bad policy.
His benefits to Faith are cool, except that I am finding Faith so much less a part of the game plan. Its inconvenient to roll poorly, thats true , but it doesn't "ruin everything" when it happens necessarily.
I see the bubble as benefiting a lot of units a lot more often and his Simulacrum for free makes the unit he's with easier to afford, plus the Laud Hailer is nice for making the most of the Faith points you do have.
I would never and have never suggested that you shouldn't take Uriah. He is extremely good and he would be necessary for me now, to play the army I used to play. So as so often is the case, play style has more to do with this than anything. But I don't think my "unorthodoxy" is unjustified in this case. I would take Uriah and Kyrinov if I wanted to play triple blobs like I used to.
calypso2ts wrote:The problem with the Canoness is Celestine is just ridiculously good.
Possibly... But I think the real problem with the Canoness is that she's horrible. She costs 25pts more than the old one and is much much worse. She doesn't help with faith, she lost a significant amount of wargear options, she can't hang in HtH like she used to, and she has a terrible retinue that's too expensive, 2 of the 5 models are useless, and is completely uncomplimentary to her. She has some mild synergy with Celestians and that's about it.
It's a damn shame really. My old Canoness would come in at 130 pts (Inferno Pistol, Eviscerator [no more Blessed Weapons!], Rosarius). I believe that's the same cost as a Marine Captain with a Relic Blade which is quite clearly a far superior choice.
The command squad is not useless. Its awesome. Relentless with three heavy weapons. Just saying. Thats a whole lot of awesome. They are like a relentless dev squad.
Jancoran wrote:The command squad is not useless. Its awesome. Relentless with three heavy weapons. Just saying. Thats a whole lot of awesome. They are like a relentless dev squad.
I have played this type a couple times. I like it. triple multi melta or 2 heavy bolters and a mult melta that runs up jumps out and shot the crap out of stuff.
Can you shoot from inside a rhino if it moves 12 inches? they are relentless...
Jancoran wrote:The command squad is not useless. Its awesome. Relentless with three heavy weapons. Just saying. Thats a whole lot of awesome. They are like a relentless dev squad.
I have played this type a couple times. I like it. triple multi melta or 2 heavy bolters and a mult melta that runs up jumps out and shot the crap out of stuff.
Can you shoot from inside a rhino if it moves 12 inches? they are relentless...
Okay, so to get those 3 Relentless Heavies in a Rhino, you have to pay:
Bare Canoness - 65
Command Squad - 115
3 Multi-meltas - 30
Rhino - 35
245 total
For that point value, you can get an 2 Immos and Dom squad with Meltas basically. They are going to be a bit more effective. The idea of 3 relentless heavies is very cool and would be better if you didn't have to pick a canoness or they were an elite. If I could take 3 relentless MM in a rhino for 180 in the elite slot? Hell, I would be all over that. 245 in the HQ slot which already has MUCH better options? No, thank you.
And no, you can't shoot from inside your vehicle if your rhino moved 12.
First, the unit, while it has an unlock, does not include her in its price. That's not a fair thing to asert. You can have a Canoness + Dominion too. So the unit itself if you choose it is 180. Dominions with 4 Meltas are what, 170? Certainly not the difference youre stating. So not a lot of difference there except the Dominion do not have all the goodies the Sororitas Command squad comes with.
Dominion dont have 24 inch range meltas and the slots might already be full ANYWAYS, precluding taking more, as you suggest one should. So really...
It's also not the same usage. The Dominions wont fire 3 heavy weapons plus special weapons and charge, the Sororitas Command squad will. The Sororitas command squad has more attacks and need not be nearly as close to the enemy when they fire. Unlike the Dominions, they are hard to kill with normal weapons and shots. So it is more than capable of holding its own against normal threats, if forced to duke it out. Dominions can't claim that. And they will be forced to.
The Canoness also comes with some Acts of Faith that are quite good for the unit.
I understand that you may not like them, but they are certainly a lot better than you're making them out to be.
Their flaw is that they REQUIRE an Act of Faith to be fully awesome in the round they dismount. I'm willing to concede that. I would point out however that the unit is rolling lower, from the get go, to get it off and if they fail, they may still be out of enemy charge range unlike Dominion.
they're just different. I like using them. They surprise my opponent fairly often with their resiliency.
Jancoran wrote:First, the unit, while it has an unlock, does not include her in its price. That's not a fair thing to asert. You can have a Canoness + Dominion too. So the unit itself if you choose it is 180. Dominions with 4 Meltas are what, 170? Certainly not the difference youre stating. So not a lot of difference there except the Dominion do not have all the goodies the Sororitas Command squad comes with.
No, it is fair to include because no one would buy a Canoness if it wasn't for the fact she unlocks the Sororitas Command Squad. The Canoness is a tax you pay to take the SCS.
And the goodies are largely useless.
Dominion dont have 24 inch range meltas and the slots might already be full ANYWAYS, precluding taking more, as you suggest one should. So really...
Fair enough, but I still think that the points are better spent on BETTER HQs or elites.
It's also not the same usage. The Dominions wont fire 3 heavy weapons plus special weapons and charge, the Sororitas Command squad will. The Sororitas command squad has more attacks and need not be nearly as close to the enemy when they fire. Unlike the Dominions, they are hard to kill with normal weapons and shots. So it is more than capable of holding its own against normal threats, if forced to duke it out. Dominions can't claim that. And they will be forced to.
The SCS gets 3 attacks each, at S3 on the charge. 2 of the models have crappy stats because they are dialogous and famulous. FNP really doesn't do a lot for you when you swing like a wet noodle and have no PW.
The Canoness also comes with some Acts of Faith that are quite good for the unit.
+1 Init and PE for a unit with no power weapons? Seriously? Okay, let's assume best case scenario here.
5 SCS with 3 MM in Rhino with Stock Canoness.
Faith check of 4+ to activate Relentless or +1I and PE (Since no Superior in squad)
Because they took heavies, they get 3 attacks on the charge and 2 each for Hos + Dial. So a whopping 13 attacks on the charge.
13 Attacks, hitting on 4's, rerolling misses. 39/4 hits. S3 so 1/3 wounds. 39/12 wounds. Against MEQ? That's 1/3 dead. 39/36 dead.
Or ~1 dead marine. That's if you make your faith check for PE and +1 Init to swing at the SAME TIME as the tac squad you just attacked.
Oh and BTW 4 Marines, 1 Sgt (BP/CCW) = 7 Attacks. 7/2 hit. 14/6 wound. 14/12 after FNP. 14/36 after saves. So the girls are unlikely to lose against 5 Tac Marines. Anything with a PW though? Yikes.
Conclusion, the Canoness' AoF is useless for this shooty unit.
I understand that you may not like them, but they are certainly a lot better than you're making them out to be.
They may be pretty okay, but they are competing with units that are AWESOME for that HQ spot. Which one would you rather take, okay or awesome?
Their flaw is that they REQUIRE an Act of Faith to be fully awesome in the round they dismount. I'm willing to concede that. I would point out however that the unit is rolling lower, from the get go, to get it off and if they fail, they may still be out of enemy charge range unlike Dominion.
No, they don't roll lower because there's no Celestian Superior in a SCS. So they are base 5, +1 for Canoness.
they're just different. I like using them. They surprise my opponent fairly often with their resiliency.
I think they would work well if you were going Multi Melta Spam list. 12 MM in Retibutors and 6 more From SCS, all in Immolators with MMs Throw in your BSS all you need to do is drive 6 inches right of the bat hop out and melta every thing that you can in turn 2 LOL. Game over for anything that gets within 24 inches of you.
Except if you move forward and hop out then youwill get assaulted since you have little fire going forward. If you're going to do that, you just sit still and say 'come to me'.
Pretre covered some of this, but I think it bears repeating. And Jancoran, please don't take these posts to mean that we're ganging up on you. Just more that we vehemently disagree with your assessment of the Command Squad.
Jancoran wrote:First, the unit, while it has an unlock, does not include her in its price. That's not a fair thing to asert. You can have a Canoness + Dominion too. So the unit itself if you choose it is 180. Dominions with 4 Meltas are what, 170? Certainly not the difference youre stating. So not a lot of difference there except the Dominion do not have all the goodies the Sororitas Command squad comes with.
You absolutely must include the cost of the Canoness. Without her the unit makes no sense because their act only works on a 5+ and, given that the Act is the entire reason anyone would even think about taking this unit, that's a very bad thing. The only upside is that they get to make their faith check in the movement phase so you don't have to worry about disembarking them, failing the check, and having them standing around with their vajayjays in the wind.
So assuming your Canoness isn't rolling with her Command Squad, what do you usually do with her?
Jancoran wrote:The Dominions wont fire 3 heavy weapons plus special weapons and charge, the Sororitas Command squad will. ... The Canoness also comes with some Acts of Faith that are quite good for the unit.
I'd like to know an in-game scenario where you'd want to charge whatever you just shot at with 3 MMs, because I can't think of one. If you're packing MMs, you're either shooting at some big bad or a vehicle. Maybe you just popped a Chimera with a min-sized henchman squad in it?
Jancoran wrote:The Canoness also comes with some Acts of Faith that are quite good for the unit.
Not even a little bit. The Canoness buffs CC, and the Command Squad is hopeless in CC. The only unit I can think of that wants the Canoness around is the regular Celestian squad, but even there I think you're paying too much for what you get.
That just made me think... How cool would it be if you could pick the Canoness's AoF from a list? That way you could make her synergize with any unit. I think that would be pretty fun.
Jancoran wrote:Unlike the Dominions, they are hard to kill with normal weapons and shots.
Barely. Just barely. The SCS is 5 T3 3+/FNP ladies for 145 (if you go 3x MM). A Dominion squad would be 10 T3 3+ ladies for 165 (if you go 4x Melta). Against small arms, FNP is functionally equivalent to having twice as many models. So you're at equivalent resilience for 20 fewer points. The only problem being that once your Hospitaller goes down you've basically just cut the size of your squad in half. So once the Dialogus dies (and let's be honest here, we want her to die first) where do you allocate your wounds? On the Hospitaller and lose FNP? On one of your MMs and gimp the squad?
Jancoran wrote:they're just different. I like using them. They surprise my opponent fairly often with their resiliency.
Different strokes and all that, but the Canoness and SCS are (in my opinion) the most tragically disappointing units in the WD list. Being able to stock up on heavy guns outside of the HS slots is pretty nice, but not for what you have to pay to get it.
I'd take a canoness without a command squad. She's cheaper than most HQ's in 40K by a LONG shot. I don't need her to be Draigo to want her. Her Acts of Faith make her useful to several units.
The goodies include feel no pain! Thats not "useless". Recapturing Faith points here and there isn't useless either if you don't have Uriah.
Assuming a stock canoness is also hardly fair. She wouldn't be stock. She'd have an eviscerator in all likelihood (well...Mine would) and maybe a plasma pistol or combi whatever.
My point was that they are rolling 4's for faith, 3's and rerolling if you have either Kyrinov (which I do) or 4's rerolling with a Simiulacrum Imperialis (if you dont use Kyrinov). Lower once they take a wound also (and they will).
For 10 more points over the Dominion you get a survivable combat competent unit in COMPARISON, which is what you were doing: comparing the two specifically.
Now you effectively have a 4th Dominion squad if you really wanted to think of it that way. That would seem...good to me, if I were one that loaded up on such things.
You praise Dominion for their ability to get there and be effective immediately in a mean brutal way. The Sororitas Command Squad can too.
Focusing on everything they AREN'T is why opponents underestimate you, much to their unfortunate demise. They only make the mistake of saying "so what" to a Sisters of Battle army once. You dont hear it again too often. That's how I feel about negative analysis. I have no illusions that the unit is the second coming of Christ. I just know that when it hits, you're going to be impressed with the firepower. Two or three times if I can help it.
Telling you that it has virtue should not be met with absolutism disagreement. It really IS better in melee than Dominion, it really DOES have better range, it really IS NOT in the same force org, and you really CAN kill the hell out of things with it like Dominion can. So why give me all this math? Would it be any different for Dominion? No! So who cares how they compare against {fill in the blank MEQ]. Dominions would fare much worse.
I assume you are talking about the possibility of a second Conclave (I already take one) as an alternative. There's no problem with that thinking that I can see if you aren't using Sisters Repentia because you DO need two hammers in a Sisters army, I feel. However if you are using Sisters Repentia and a Battle Conclave, you need to help them out by giving them targets and the can openers in some armies are the immolators. They aren't in my force. So since I have not SPENT the points some people do on Immolators, I in turn find MUCH greater value in these as can openers.
You are offering this indightment of Sororitas command Squads as essential truth. I am telling you that the build determines how "true" your value statement is. Immolators are not inexpensive. You can get a pair of them and they cost as much as this Command Squad after you throw dozer blades on there basically! That's food for thought. And Immolators while awesome, do die to Lootas and Storm Ravens and Gawd only knows what else the enemt wants to point at them and what else was the enemy going to aim at anyways with those weapons systems? nothing! The good news is, you can't one-shot a Command squad into ineffectiveness. Takes a bit more to do.
So in some sense I am spending points on Immolator replacements. As such they become worth more to my force than if there were more Immolators.
the build and strategy put the true values on things. Not the inert codex with no hand guiding it wouldn't you agree?
Spidey0804 wrote:I think they would work well if you were going Multi Melta Spam list. 12 MM in Retibutors and 6 more From SCS, all in Immolators with MMs Throw in your BSS all you need to do is drive 6 inches right of the bat hop out and melta every thing that you can in turn 2 LOL. Game over for anything that gets within 24 inches of you.
For 60 fewer points, you could drop the Command Squads and take 3 Celestian squads. You'd have 2 fewer MMs, but you'd have and extra Immolator and it would free up your HQ slots.
If you wanted to go bonkers with melta, you could 3 Celestian squads with Melta/MM in MM Immos, 3 Dominion squads with Melta/Melta/Combi-Melta in MM Immos, and 3 MM Retributor squads in MM Immos. It's about 1600 points for all that, but you'd have 9 MM Immos, 15 foot MMs, and 12 foot Meltas. It's insane, but there it is.
Jancoran wrote:My point was that they are rolling 4's for faith, 3's and rerolling if you have either Kyrinov (which I do) or 4's rerolling with a Simiulacrum Imperialis (if you dont use Kyrinov). Lower once they take a wound also (and they will).
Wait, your whole sentence is wrong.
They roll 5's for faith, +1 for Canoness so 4's. Kyrinov does NOT allow you to reroll faith checks; he allows you to reroll how many faith you get each turn. A Simulacrum makes the squad even more top heavy.
Jancoran wrote:I'd take a canoness without a command squad. She's cheaper than most HQ's in 40K by a LONG shot. I don't need her to be Draigo to want her. Her Acts of Faith make her useful to several units. ... Assuming a stock canoness is also hardly fair. She wouldn't be stock. She'd have an eviscerator in all likelihood (well...Mine would) and maybe a plasma pistol or combi whatever.
She's cheap because she doesn't do anything. Toss in the Eviscerator and Plasma and she's already at 105 pts. And that's on a T3 model with no invul. The Rosarius kicks her up to 130, which is what you'd pay for a SM Captain with a Relic Blade. Not to mention that it's 15pts over what you'd pay for Celestine.
And her AoF isn't really that useful. It's a CC ability for an army that really doesn't want to be in CC. It's admittedly a decent match to a regular Celestian squad, but I doubt it's worth what you're paying for. The only other faithful unit that wants to get stuck in is Repentia and joining the Canoness to them would cost you Fleet, an unacceptable trade.
Jancoran wrote:The goodies include feel no pain! Thats not "useless". Recapturing Faith points here and there isn't useless either if you don't have Uriah.
But like I said before, the cost of FNP is basically a wash because you're getting it at the expense of extra bodies. And getting back the faith points is a really low utility "goody". You only really need it on turns when you have a low amount of faith to begin with so you're not going to get many chances where that extra point is actually meaningful.
Jancoran wrote:My point was that they are rolling 4's for faith, 3's and rerolling if you have either Kyrinov (which I do) or 4's rerolling with a Simiulacrum Imperialis (if you dont use Kyrinov). Lower once they take a wound also (and they will).
Now you've added Kyrinov and a Simulacrum? Your 200 pt unit is now 320 pts (360 if you tricked out your Canoness)! That's extremely expensive and it's eating both of your HQ spots. You're talking about 2 squads worth of anything else in the codex just to get 3 relentless multi-meltas. If you want to think of them as Immo replacements, that 4 Immolators!
Jancoran wrote:Focusing on everything they AREN'T is why opponents underestimate you, much to their unfortunate demise. ... Telling you that it has virtue should not be met with absolutism disagreement. It really IS better in melee than Dominion, it really DOES have better range, it really IS NOT in the same force org, and you really CAN kill the hell out of things with it like Dominion can. So why give me all this math? Would it be any different for Dominion? No! So who cares how they compare against {fill in the blank MEQ]. Dominions would fare much worse.
That's fair. So, let's talk about what the SCS can do. Assuming 3x MM in the squad it's 145pts. So having the MM is a big plus. It's 24" range with a 12" melta range. This is very good and gives them a large threat bubble. Being able to go relentless is also a big plus. So you have this squad that can act like a Retributor squad or act like a Dominion squad (albeit w/o Scouts). That's pretty cool.
If you want them to act like Rets, you're getting 1 less weapon, but you're also getting FNP and a possibility of move and shoot. You're also paying 40 points more than the Rets would cost by themselves. That's a pretty big premium, but you are getting some solid advantages and you've also potentially freed up a HS slot.
If you want them to act like Dominions it's a bit more of a mixed bag. So you're either getting 1 extra weapon or 1 fewer depending on the loadout of the Dominion squad (5 ladies or 10) not to mention that the VSS can take a combi-weapon. Your main benefit over the Dominions is range. Being able to move, jump out, and shoot gives you an effective 38" range. This is offset by a complete reliance on the Act of Faith to get your job done. So at a minimum you should probably pay for the Simulacrum. In reality, you probably want to keep the Canoness with the squad for the 4+. The downside is that your 145pt unit is now a 230pt unit. Even if we ignore the cost of the Canoness, we've got a squad that costs just as much as a full Dominion squad, but can only shoot half of the time.
So I actually dig the thought of using an SCS as an extra Retributor squad. Rets with FNP, and even a 1/3 shot of occasionally going Relentless is pretty appealing. My problem is with the 65 pt matzoh ball of a Canoness required to unlock them. I cannot think of a single use for her. As an extra "Dominion" type squad I think the faith requirement is way too much of a liability, especially on a unit that costs so much. I think you'd be better off just taking a Celestian squad with regular meltas. It's not as sexy, but it's cheaper, you can suicide it, and it frees up your HQ slot.
Jancoran wrote:However if you are using Sisters Repentia and a Battle Conclave, you need to help them out by giving them targets and the can openers in some armies are the immolators. They aren't in my force. So since I have not SPENT the points some people do on Immolators, I in turn find MUCH greater value in these as can openers.
You are offering this indightment of Sororitas command Squads as essential truth. I am telling you that the build determines how "true" your value statement is. Immolators are not inexpensive. You can get a pair of them and they cost as much as this Command Squad after you throw dozer blades on there basically! That's food for thought. And Immolators while awesome, do die to Lootas and Storm Ravens and Gawd only knows what else the enemt wants to point at them and what else was the enemy going to aim at anyways with those weapons systems? nothing! The good news is, you can't one-shot a Command squad into ineffectiveness. Takes a bit more to do.
So in some sense I am spending points on Immolator replacements. As such they become worth more to my force than if there were more Immolators.
the build and strategy put the true values on things. Not the inert codex with no hand guiding it wouldn't you agree?
I'll totally agree that units that look "sub-par" in a vacuum can shine given the right list. But I just don't see it with the SCS. I don't think that they're useless (I do think the Canoness is though) but I think that you have to spend way too much to make them work.
If you're using them as can openers and Immolator replacments, it just doesn't seem like that's a good trade off. A SCS (yes with the Canoness) is 210 pts. It's 245 with a ride. That's quite literally 3 MMs in a single unit for the same price as 3 separate units that have a TLMM each. That means when it comes time, you can open up to 3 cans with the same amount of points. And sure those Lootas can bust an Immo pretty easily, but now they have to bust 3. Those same Lootas could do serious damage to a SCS too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jancoran wrote:You need to read him again. Then read what i wrote
In Pretre's defense it was a little confusing. It's not super clear that the re-roll is coming from the Simulacrum. Even still, SCS + Simulacrum + Canoness + Kyrinov is insane. It's a minimum of 300 pts just to make that one unit work right. And yes it gets lower once you take a wound, but the squad doesn't have any extra bodies. If you're lucky the Dialogus will die first. After that every casualty significantly diminishes the usefulness of the squad.
Amerikon wrote:now you've added Kyrinov and a Simulacrum?
Kyrinov acts as a simulacrum and laud hauler so you don't have to pay for that also. As for him being with the command squad and the cannoness being in there it would go off on a 3. +1 for cannoness and +1 for Kyrinov. Least thats how I understand it. I might be reading it wrong.
Lets get back to my original question. Can I fire out of a transport that move 12 if I'm relentless?
Can't Blood Angels do it? firing out of a "Fast Rhino"
Amerikon wrote:now you've added Kyrinov and a Simulacrum?
Kyrinov acts as a simulacrum and laud hauler so you don't have to pay for that also. As for him being with the command squad and the cannoness being in there it would go off on a 3. +1 for cannoness and +1 for Kyrinov. Least thats how I understand it. I might be reading it wrong.
Right. I forgot about Kyrinov's "Heightened Fervour" ability. That doesn't change the fact that you're putting at least 155pts of add ons to make a 145pt unit work.
Spidey0804 wrote:Lets get back to my original question. Can I fire out of a transport that move 12 if I'm relentless?
Can't Blood Angels do it? firing out of a "Fast Rhino"
Relentless would not let you shoot if your vehicle moved at Cruising Speed (or is it Combat Speed? Whichever one is the fast one!) Same thing for the Blood Angels. Once you're over 6" you can't shoot out of the vehicle. The Fast rule just lets you move Flat Out and shoot mounted weapons as if you were moving at the next lower speed level..
Amerikon wrote:now you've added Kyrinov and a Simulacrum?
Kyrinov acts as a simulacrum and laud hauler so you don't have to pay for that also. As for him being with the command squad and the cannoness being in there it would go off on a 3. +1 for cannoness and +1 for Kyrinov. Least thats how I understand it. I might be reading it wrong.
Correct Spidey0804. Which is why I dont understand why they are saying what they are saying. They are confusing Kyrinov and Uriah and also forgetting what Kyrinov does, and...yeah. The analysis is not accurate. This comes down to some people not liking the Canoness herself. Here's what you get though when its all said and done for just 145 points:
You're getting a 5 person TRIPLE MULTIMELTA unit with 13 attacks on the charge. They can be +1 Init and Preferred enemy, plus Feel no Pain all in one unit plus relentless and move through cover for the charge when needed.
When/if Kyrinov is in it, they are fearless (without him they are stubborn!), get acts of faith on 3+, gets to reroll it, re-roll the to-hits on the charge which, when you have preferred enemy, means you're hitting very well.
The Canoness adds 4 Eviscerator attacks hitting on re-rollable 3's on the charge? Sounds good. Oh and Kyrinov gets 5 Str 3 Power attacks, re-rolling on 3's, on the charge.
So then:
The unit itself causes just over 3+ wounds to MEQ between shooting and charging . Kyrinov does 1.5, the Canoness kills 3 without counting any shots she takes. That's 7.5+ wounds. We could add 4 pistol shots if you want. And the unit can in the meantime fire away.
As a poiint of interest, 5 Assault Terminators average 6.25 wounds against MEQ when charging.
=)
Someone will and has said "you are "dedicating" a lot of points ot the unit. That's not true either. The Canoness had to go in a unit. She wasn't going to fly alone ANYWAYS. Kyrinov has to go in a unit. He isn't flying solo ANYWAYS. So you're not "dedicating" the points to this particular pony so much as just adding a 145 point unit of antitank awesomeness that HAPPENS to be a great place for the two characters to go initially. If it wasn't them, it would have been another unit.
The Canoness is the issue to some but from where I'm standing all I see is her killing 3 Marines on a charge.
When charged, they hold up well also, and will hold the line as they would be stubborn (or fearless when/if Kyrinov joins)
Interesting use of Kyrinov. Not my cup of tea having both your hq eggs in one basket, but interesting.
I run double conclave with Uriah and Kyrinov. My kyrinov is in a unit of heavy flamer retributors. Sarg has a power weapon and a token priest is in Kyrinovs conclave. Ret squad is simply for mop up duty and to sit in thier rhino and run the fearless bubble. But when I need a third hammer, we all can remember how effective divine guidiance flamers were. It is reliable too since It is on a 3+ with rerolls. Only down side is the Heavy slot it takes.
Jancoran wrote:This comes down to some people not liking the Canoness herself. Here's what you get though when its all said and done for just 145 points:
The difference here is that Assault Terminators are T4, 2+/3++ and only cost 200 pts.
Jancoran wrote:Someone will and has said "you are "dedicating" a lot of points ot the unit. That's not true either. The Canoness had to go in a unit. She wasn't going to fly alone ANYWAYS. Kyrinov has to go in a unit. He isn't flying solo ANYWAYS. So you're not "dedicating" the points to this particular pony so much as just adding a 145 point unit of antitank awesomeness that HAPPENS to be a great place for the two characters to go initially. If it wasn't them, it would have been another unit.
I don't understand how you can keep acting like the Canoness and Kyrinov are free. You keep putting them in the unit and then insisting that it's still just a 145 pt unit. That's just flat out wrong. If you put them in the unit you can't claim their bonuses without including their costs. Imagine if I was a Wolf player and was talking up how awesome my Relentless Long Fang squad was and how they were only 140 pts. Then when someone says "Yeah, but you have to put Logan Grimnar in the squad to make it work and he's 275 pts", I respond with "What are you talking about? He's already part of the list and it's not like he's walking around by himself anyways!". Do you see how unbelievably wrong that is?
The bottom line is that SCS + Canoness + Eviscerator + Kyrinov is 325 points. That's how much it is. If you put them in a Rhino, it's 360 points. Don't say that it isn't.
The unit isn't a bad unit. It can kill plenty of things, but it's not 325 points good. And that's the crux of the problem. The SCS is a shooting unit that requires expensive characters to make its ability work. The SCS is a horribleCC unit. The only reason they seem like a good CC unit is because they're being buffed by 200 pts worth of characters. If you put a Canoness and Kyrinov in any other faithful unit you'd have a much better CC unit (that still wouldn't be worth the cost btw). That means the SCS is actually making them worse by forcing them to buff a lousy CC unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jancoran wrote:Thank you and it's a resilient unit too.
Not really. 5 T3/3+ FNP models are at best the same as 10 T3/3+ models. So they're no better than a regular Battle Sister squad or any other full size unit. It's not bad, it's just nothing special.
Amerikon wrote:
The bottom line is that SCS + Canoness + Eviscerator + Kyrinov is 325 points.
The unit isn't a bad unit...The SCS is a horribleCC unit... It's not bad, it's just nothing special.
Isnt bad...is horrible...isn't bad. You gotta make up your mind.
You're taking it a bit hard mate.
Call it a 325 point unit if you need to. I guess that makes a Uriah Conclave in a rhino a 280 point unit. Costs me nothing to let you account for it that way. So sure.
But for my part, I'll call it 145 point unit guarding my IC's, and 7.5 kills later, I'll let accountants sort it out in heaven. My army has 20 KP in it, despite my apparently gross over expenditures but.... Angelic accountants of immutable Warhammer truth are even now scratching notes in the "bad" column of their books reading the heresy I type. Woe betide anyone who suggests the use of THAT unit.
Jancoran wrote: Call it a 325 point unit if you need to. I guess that makes a Uriah Conclave in a rhino a 280 point unit. Costs me nothing to let you account for it that way. So sure.
That seems like the way to cost them... Uriah in a rhino is 280, the Command Squad is 325. The question is what those 45 points are getting you.
They are not getting you a viable CC replacement. Uriah is just better at CC, and with more bodies and at least 3, maybe more 3++ invulnerable saves and FNP he is just as survivable. Cultists will do about as many wounds and won't have to deal with armor saves. Comparing the Command Squads CC damage to Uriah's is not the way to speak to their advantages.
What you do get there is a Vehicle/MC killer than can reposition and fire, assault a vehicle/MC and reliably kill it, soak up a degree of shooting that would send most SoB units running off the field, and do fair well in assault. That might be worth and extra 45 points, in that light. The problems that keep folks from using them are very real though... they lack many invulnerable saves, and the enemy will figure out pretty quick they don't want them around and how to bypass that FNP. If they fail their faith, they have to choose between sitting tight or not firing their weapons, and neither is usually ideal. But really those can be overcome. What actually hurts is that vehicle/MC hunters can be found elsewhere in the codex in abundance and cheaper. Dedicated assault units are a lot more rare, and Uriah and company can handle things Repentia/command squads don't handle well (massed pw between i5 and i2, for a start). So Uriah wins out as a rule.
I like that you are using them, I like how you are using them, and I would never call heresy. All that said, I'm just not convinced it's a niche most armies need filled.
Correct Spidey0804. Which is why I dont understand why they are saying what they are saying. They are confusing Kyrinov and Uriah and also forgetting what Kyrinov does, and...yeah. The analysis is not accurate. This comes down to some people not liking the Canoness herself. Here's what you get though when its all said and done for just 145 points:
You're getting a 5 person TRIPLE MULTIMELTA unit with 13 attacks on the charge. They can be +1 Init and Preferred enemy, plus Feel no Pain all in one unit plus relentless and move through cover for the charge when needed.
When/if Kyrinov is in it, they are fearless (without him they are stubborn!), get acts of faith on 3+, gets to reroll it, re-roll the to-hits on the charge which, when you have preferred enemy, means you're hitting very well.
The Canoness adds 4 Eviscerator attacks hitting on re-rollable 3's on the charge? Sounds good. Oh and Kyrinov gets 5 Str 3 Power attacks, re-rolling on 3's, on the charge.
So then:
The unit itself causes just over 3+ wounds to MEQ between shooting and charging . Kyrinov does 1.5, the Canoness kills 3 without counting any shots she takes. That's 7.5+ wounds. We could add 4 pistol shots if you want. And the unit can in the meantime fire away.
As a poiint of interest, 5 Assault Terminators average 6.25 wounds against MEQ when charging.
=)
Someone will and has said "you are "dedicating" a lot of points ot the unit. That's not true either. The Canoness had to go in a unit. She wasn't going to fly alone ANYWAYS. Kyrinov has to go in a unit. He isn't flying solo ANYWAYS. So you're not "dedicating" the points to this particular pony so much as just adding a 145 point unit of antitank awesomeness that HAPPENS to be a great place for the two characters to go initially. If it wasn't them, it would have been another unit.
The Canoness is the issue to some but from where I'm standing all I see is her killing 3 Marines on a charge.
When charged, they hold up well also, and will hold the line as they would be stubborn (or fearless when/if Kyrinov joins)
Dont forget she is going to swing her Eviscerator at INT 2 also and if Kyrinov is in there he is swinging at INT 5 and the sisters will be swinging INT 4. Which means the power fist should be dead. Along with all the rest of the MEQ... Just tossing in my 2 cents
Automatically Appended Next Post: So I have another RTT on sunday. This is the list im going to be running.
Fast Attack: Seraphim Squad (5)
Seraphim Squad 4 Two Hand Flamers (x2);
Seraphim Superior Bolt Pistol;(x2)
Fast Attack: Dominion Squad (5)
Dominion Squad 4 Meltagun (x2)
Dominion Superior Combi-Meltagun (x1);
Immolator Searchlight; Dozer Blade; Twin-Linked Multi-melta
Fast Attack: Dominion Squad (5)
Dominion Squad 4 Meltagun (x2)
Dominion Superior Combi-Meltagun (x1);
Immolator Searchlight; Dozer Blade; Twin-Linked Multi-melta
I am really liking the build on the battle sister squads and I'm thinking that I'm going to play on the thought process that Sisters suck in CC to make people come at me. I really am considering this list as being my GT/RTT list from here on out also. Any thoughts?
while I personally prefer 10 Sister Dominion Squads, it looks good. The Hunter Killers are an unusual touch, but I like that too. Dual stormbolters on the Rhinos. I mean, those rhinos are actually packing a lot of punch.
I dont like the size of the repentia. Too big to hide for sure behind a Rhino. That woprries me a little. I know why you want more but thats the only input I would give.
Jancoran wrote:You need to read him again. Then read what i wrote
In Pretre's defense it was a little confusing. It's not super clear that the re-roll is coming from the Simulacrum. Even still, SCS + Simulacrum + Canoness + Kyrinov is insane. It's a minimum of 300 pts just to make that one unit work right. And yes it gets lower once you take a wound, but the squad doesn't have any extra bodies. If you're lucky the Dialogus will die first. After that every casualty significantly diminishes the usefulness of the squad.
Oh, Kyrinov. My bad, I was thinking Jacobus. Yeah, you could add 90 more points to the already bloated unit.
Spidey0804 wrote:Dont forget she is going to swing her Eviscerator at INT 2 also and if Kyrinov is in there he is swinging at INT 5 and the sisters will be swinging INT 4. Which means the power fist should be dead. Along with all the rest of the MEQ... Just tossing in my 2 cents
Canoness swings at I1, you can't modify a PFinit.
So I have another RTT on sunday. This is the list im going to be running.
Looks interesting, although some of the upgrades seem a bit excessive for all those extra SB and HKs, you could buy two rhinos for your rets and let the Reps steal them.
Amerikon wrote:
The bottom line is that SCS + Canoness + Eviscerator + Kyrinov is 325 points.
The unit isn't a bad unit...The SCS is a horribleCC unit... It's not bad, it's just nothing special.
Isnt bad...is horrible...isn't bad. You gotta make up your mind.
If you're going to try and insult me you could at least act as if you read what I wrote.
Jancoran wrote:Call it a 325 point unit if you need to. I guess that makes a Uriah Conclave in a rhino a 280 point unit. Costs me nothing to let you account for it that way. So sure.
But for my part, I'll call it 145 point unit guarding my IC's ...
I think I'm about to rip my hair out. Ok Sam... step away from the internet...
Spidey0804 wrote:Dont forget she is going to swing her Eviscerator at INT 2 also and if Kyrinov is in there he is swinging at INT 5 and the sisters will be swinging INT 4. Which means the power fist should be dead. Along with all the rest of the MEQ... Just tossing in my 2 cents
Canoness swings at I1, you can't modify a PFinit.
So I have another RTT on sunday. This is the list im going to be running.
Looks interesting, although some of the upgrades seem a bit excessive for all those extra SB and HKs, you could buy two rhinos for your rets and let the Reps steal them.
Opps, tell how much I run her
As for the upgrades yeah I know but I like the fire power from them. Plus people start shooting at them which means they aren't shooting at PEs or Repentia.
Well, I get that, but it seems to me that two more Rhinos will make the Repentia a lot more survivable than a little bit of perceived threat from the upgrades. /shrug Your list though.
I let you know how it goes this weekend. They performed really well this past couple times I have taken them. Only 9 games with them is hardly a good test but so far they have performed and complement the synergy of the list.
There's a big hole in the Fast Attack slot so I think this list ends up being a weird 2 level gun line with Exorcists in the backfield and Immos and Command Squads in the midfield. Instead of rushing the army forward to get into regular melta range, the SCSs would ride up into mid field and hopefully be able to get out into a covered position. Maybe try to use their Immolator to screen them a bit. Then it's hold your ground.
The Celestians ride with the Canonesses as anti-infantry and light counter-attack units. You probably don't want to rush them ahead either. Instead keeping them as protection for all of your MM units. I really don't like that you have to use two AoFs to make them even ok in CC, but you'll be rolling 3s so you probably have a good shot at getting at least one of them off. I also really don't like that you have to give the Canoness an Eviscerator and essentially squander her potential init 5. Why oh why did they take our Blessed Weapons away?!?!
Those are the downsides. The upside is that you've got basically 5 HS choices and more multi-meltas than you can shake a stick at. If I had to guess, I'd think it would do ok, but probably suffer against hordes and anything with a fast CC threats. What do y'all think?
pretre wrote:Eww. I would swap the SCS for Rhinos, so they can move and shoot without exposing themselves.
Also, keep in mind that without a Canoness, the SCS is only getting their AOF on a 5+.
This is actually why I went with the Immos over Rhinos for the SCSs. I don't think that they're useful as a mobile unit since you have to tack so many points of add-ons to get their AoF to work. So I'm going to try and use them as basically just Retributors with FNP. If I really needed to move them and I had a spare faith point sitting around, I'd give it crack on 5+, but I'm generally expecting them to be static.
pretre wrote:Also, is the slight bump in CC really worth taking the Celestians over Dominions?
Excellent question! This is one of my biggest problems with making a list with the CSCs. I've got to do something with the Canoness. She really only works with Celestians so I figured I'd bring Celestians. I'm also figuring that this way I can have some tiny scrap of CC in the army. If I can get the +1 Init and Preferred Enemy off it'll take them from "terrible in CC" to "slightly bad in CC". If I can get the +1 S off that might even elevate their CC ability to "meh".
So if you took Doms instead of Celestians, what do you do w/ the Canoness? If she joins the unit they lose Scouts, right? I seriously cannot think of a use for a Canoness!
Amerikon wrote:
The bottom line is that SCS + Canoness + Eviscerator + Kyrinov is 325 points.
The unit isn't a bad unit...The SCS is a horribleCC unit... It's not bad, it's just nothing special.
Isnt bad...is horrible...isn't bad. You gotta make up your mind.
You're taking it a bit hard mate.
Call it a 325 point unit if you need to. I guess that makes a Uriah Conclave in a rhino a 280 point unit. Costs me nothing to let you account for it that way. So sure.
But for my part, I'll call it 145 point unit guarding my IC's, and 7.5 kills later, I'll let accountants sort it out in heaven. My army has 20 KP in it, despite my apparently gross over expenditures but.... Angelic accountants of immutable Warhammer truth are even now scratching notes in the "bad" column of their books reading the heresy I type. Woe betide anyone who suggests the use of THAT unit.
To be honest i stopped arguing because theyre just gonna choke to death over their Uriah-bombs (which sucks just as bad as a canoness and SCS) and call anything else stupid. The whole codex blows so what the point in trying to find out something new? They just continue to stick to what they read on the internet till someone pioneers something new then they jump on the "IT"S BROKE!" wagon. Just like when Hulksmash won a GT with walking GK strike squads. Before that everyone said it was trash but now its scary. Just let it go
Yeah, we're all slaves to the internets telling us how to make Sister lists. Oh wait, what? That doesn't exist? Oh I'm so confused now. Where do I take my orders from?!?!
Chosen Praetorian wrote: To be honest i stopped arguing because theyre just gonna choke to death over their Uriah-bombs (which sucks just as bad as a canoness and SCS) and call anything else stupid. The whole codex blows so what the point in trying to find out something new? They just continue to stick to what they read on the internet till someone pioneers something new then they jump on the "IT"S BROKE!" wagon. Just like when Hulksmash won a GT with walking GK strike squads. Before that everyone said it was trash but now its scary. Just let it go
Look at my list and tell me I just play what the internet tells me I should play. If you make a good argument, I'll look it over. If you just want to pop in and say discussing it with the likes of the forum is beneath you, that's not a particularly helpful addition.
I like underused units. I like a novel approach. I enjoy the SCS setup I read, simply because it is novel, underused, and useful. But I have yet to be convinced it is useful enough to merit wider use, or personal use. That's not because google stepped down and decreed the internet does not like the unit, it's because I read what the unit does, how it works, appreciated it, and decided it doesn't add enough to merit inclusion. Uriah does. I'm always happy to hear opposed arguments.
Chosen Praetorian wrote: To be honest i stopped arguing because theyre just gonna choke to death over their Uriah-bombs (which sucks just as bad as a canoness and SCS) and call anything else stupid. The whole codex blows so what the point in trying to find out something new? They just continue to stick to what they read on the internet till someone pioneers something new then they jump on the "IT"S BROKE!" wagon. Just like when Hulksmash won a GT with walking GK strike squads. Before that everyone said it was trash but now its scary. Just let it go
Let's be fair on Hulksmash's list, I play Daemons as well and that list scares the crap out of me (not due to Warp Quake, due to the disgusting amount of S5 24" shooting).
Also, the SCS is a tough sell imo because the BC really does cover up some weaknesses in the SoB 'codex' by providing a really brutal counter assault element. That role used to be the Flying nun. The SCS is not a super effective assault unit (not saying it is terrible, but the units you have trouble with taking down like Assault Terminators) fold to the Conclave.
From an individual standpoint, the Canoness is not as efficient as her counterparts but she can bring an Eviserator with her which is nice. That said, there are a lot of units that can be situationally good and that when taken collectively have the synergy to perform well (any Foot Eldar army comes to mind). I am not sure the support structure exists for SoB to do that with the other unit selections - I think a more flexible Faith system might enable that by allowing you to field Seraphim, Rets and the SCS while the Canoness bumps around that core could have done that, but as it stands it does not.
Chosen Praetorian wrote:To be honest i stopped arguing because theyre just gonna choke to death over their Uriah-bombs (which sucks just as bad as a canoness and SCS) and call anything else stupid. The whole codex blows so what the point in trying to find out something new? They just continue to stick to what they read on the internet till someone pioneers something new then they jump on the "IT"S BROKE!" wagon. Just like when Hulksmash won a GT with walking GK strike squads. Before that everyone said it was trash but now its scary. Just let it go
You mad bro? I think you might want to take a step back for a second and realize that you're wishing death on folks because of their choices in a wargame. Geeze.
The whole codex does not blow, as has been proven. There are a couple good builds that make the book do pretty well competitively.
You might want to take your own advice and 'Just let it go.'
Chosen Praetorian wrote:To be honest i stopped arguing because theyre just gonna choke to death over their Uriah-bombs (which sucks just as bad as a canoness and SCS) and call anything else stupid. The whole codex blows so what the point in trying to find out something new? They just continue to stick to what they read on the internet till someone pioneers something new then they jump on the "IT"S BROKE!" wagon. Just like when Hulksmash won a GT with walking GK strike squads. Before that everyone said it was trash but now its scary. Just let it go
You mad bro? I think you might want to take a step back for a second and realize that you're wishing death on folks because of their choices in a wargame. Geeze.
The whole codex does not blow, as has been proven. There are a couple good builds that make the book do pretty well competitively.
You might want to take your own advice and 'Just let it go.'
Compared to the current top meta codices the sisters book is tier 2 at best. There wasnt a single sisters player at adepticon this year because they see the flaw in going to a big tournament with a mediocre army. With that being said, i picked up sisters in a trade about 2 months ago and havent lost a game yet (and my environment is SW, GK, IG, Necrons, Tau, BA, DE, Orks). But when people try to show some type of variance away from the internet norm then theyre automatically told that theyre wrong and the list will never work? That stifles expansion and adaptation. Lets just pretend that everyone thinks the Uriah-bomb unit is amazing, that its the best unit in the codex and something to be feared. Other units in the book that youre willing to bring are decent but not great (the dominions are probably the next best thing compared to Uriah-bombs). So when first turn starts the number 1 target is your Uriah-bomb toting rhino. The fact that youre claiming it ALWAYS makes it across the board and ALWAYS get into assault proves the ignorance of your opponents. If the unit is as hardcore as you claim then dumping half an army worth of shots into it isnt a waste. Youre creating a list that doesnt practice good target saturation. Youre giving them an obvious target where as a list with 2 canoness SCS units doesnt have this obvious target priority. Everything in my list is a target of equal desire, everything in my list is able to kill monoliths/landraiders/paladins. And comparing the sisters' DCA to GKDCA is what really makes me not like the unit. It cant be in an assault vehicle, it cant have grenades that reduce demons and psykers to I1 and reduce T by 1 while at the same time giving them a S boost of +1. I dont see how bringing a unit that has an exact copy of better quality in another codex makes any sense.
Chosen Praetorian wrote:Compared to the current top meta codices the sisters book is tier 2 at best. There wasnt a single sisters player at adepticon this year because they see the flaw in going to a big tournament with a mediocre army.
Umm. Tiers are BS, but I disagree with your contention that Adepticon indicates what is competitive or not. It could also be a combination of the internet being wrong about them and the expense of creating an army of sisters.
With that being said, i picked up sisters in a trade about 2 months ago and havent lost a game yet (and my environment is SW, GK, IG, Necrons, Tau, BA, DE, Orks).
Oh, I see. You're that guy. Sisters are bad, but you haven't lost a game yet. I see.
But when people try to show some type of variance away from the internet norm then theyre automatically told that theyre wrong and the list will never work? That stifles expansion and adaptation.
Wait, so the internet is right about the book being a poor book, but wrong about which units in the book are good or bad. Gotcha.
Lets just pretend that everyone thinks the Uriah-bomb unit is amazing, that its the best unit in the codex and something to be feared. Other units in the book that youre willing to bring are decent but not great (the dominions are probably the next best thing compared to Uriah-bombs). So when first turn starts the number 1 target is your Uriah-bomb toting rhino. The fact that youre claiming it ALWAYS makes it across the board and ALWAYS get into assault proves the ignorance of your opponents.
I'm gonna stop you here. I specifically said that it mostly gets into assault and gave key times when it did not. Dominions are probably equally as good as the Uriah bomb because they enable it to work by applying pressure across multiple fronts.
If the unit is as hardcore as you claim then dumping half an army worth of shots into it isnt a waste. Youre creating a list that doesnt practice good target saturation.
Okay, you're flat out wrong here. 3 Scouting Dominions, Uriah's Rhino and Celestine are all right outside your lines. 3 Exorcists are going to make mincemeat of your vehicles or 2+ armor. That's target saturation. My entire list is based on my opponent having to make bad choices.
Youre giving them an obvious target where as a list with 2 canoness SCS units doesnt have this obvious target priority. Everything in my list is a target of equal desire, everything in my list is able to kill monoliths/landraiders/paladins.
Yes, sisters can spam melta. How about Green Tide or Horde Nids? Uriah Bomb is GREAT at anti-horde. (30-40 rerollable S4 attacks make a mess of any serious horde unit.)
And comparing the sisters' DCA to GKDCA is what really makes me not like the unit. It cant be in an assault vehicle, it cant have grenades that reduce demons and psykers to I1 and reduce T by 1 while at the same time giving them a S boost of +1. I dont see how bringing a unit that has an exact copy of better quality in another codex makes any sense.
GKDCA can't get rerolls on the charge, +1 Attack and FNP. It's roughly a wash except for the assault vehicle. And for the price that you are paying to get those grenades, HH and assault vehicle, we can take two conclaves.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there is only one way to play Sisters in the new book. I am saying that some choices are pretty cost-inefficient for what you get.
The Canoness + SCS is one of them. I REALLY wanted to like the unit when I saw it, but the fact that they don't come with a Celestian Superior and take up an HQ slot rather than an Elite reallly kills it for me. If they were elite and had a superior? I'd take 3.
Saying i havent lost with them doesnt mean theyre good. It means if you know how to play them they can win. And having 3 dominion squads, Uriah and celestine right outside my lines when im playing GK or SW means what? Oh no! 5 expensive mediocre units are right outside my lines! What ever will i do? Oh yeah... Im cheaper (or in GKs case more expensive but ridiculously OP for my price) and better than them at EVERYTHING. And the cost of a GKDCA in a Storm Raven with a techpriest is roughly 445. Its a bit more than the sisters but it has many more options and playability. Being able to flat out and melta a transport then move 12 and fire 2 more tank eating shots then assault is huge. And horde isnt good with longfangs and purifiers so what the point in preping for something that is seldom seen? And how is tier BS? SW/GK are tier 1 (meaning the best codices in the game). Do you disagree?
Chosen Praetorian wrote:Saying i havent lost with them doesnt mean theyre good. It means if you know how to play them they can win. And having 3 dominion squads, Uriah and celestine right outside my lines when im playing GK or SW means what? Oh no! 5 expensive mediocre units are right outside my lines! What ever will i do? Oh yeah... Im cheaper (or in GKs case more expensive but ridiculously OP for my price) and better than them at EVERYTHING.
Umm except assault (in the case of the DCA Bomb), first turn melta shooting (in the case of the dominions) and pure 'I won't die' annoyance in the case of Celestine. So you kill 2 or 3 of the 9 units presented to you. The rest eat your face.
And the cost of a GKDCA in a Storm Raven with a techpriest is roughly 445. Its a bit more than the sisters but it has many more options and playability. Being able to flat out and melta a transport then move 12 and fire 2 more tank eating shots then assault is huge. And horde isnt good with longfangs and purifiers so what the point in preping for something that is seldom seen? And how is tier BS? SW/GK are tier 1 (meaning the best codices in the game). Do you disagree?
DCA Bomb with Uriah is 240 + Transport is 275. DCA for GK is 150 + SR is ~ 250 (no codex) + Librarian or Techmarine or Inquisitor is up around 500. So I can get two bombs for your grenade toting DCA in a Stormraven.
Just because it 'isn't good' doesn't mean it won't beat you if you are unprepared for it. 150+ Orks is a tough slog for an army built to kill vehicles.
As for GK / SW being good codexes? Sure. They are good/great codexes. I just don't buy the tier bs.
Chosen Praetorian wrote:Saying i havent lost with them doesnt mean theyre good. It means if you know how to play them they can win. And having 3 dominion squads, Uriah and celestine right outside my lines when im playing GK or SW means what? Oh no! 5 expensive mediocre units are right outside my lines! What ever will i do? Oh yeah... Im cheaper (or in GKs case more expensive but ridiculously OP for my price) and better than them at EVERYTHING.
Umm except assault (in the case of the DCA Bomb), first turn melta shooting (in the case of the dominions) and pure 'I won't die' annoyance in the case of Celestine. So you kill 2 or 3 of the 9 units presented to you. The rest eat your face.
And the cost of a GKDCA in a Storm Raven with a techpriest is roughly 445. Its a bit more than the sisters but it has many more options and playability. Being able to flat out and melta a transport then move 12 and fire 2 more tank eating shots then assault is huge. And horde isnt good with longfangs and purifiers so what the point in preping for something that is seldom seen? And how is tier BS? SW/GK are tier 1 (meaning the best codices in the game). Do you disagree?
DCA Bomb with Uriah is 240 + Transport is 275. DCA for GK is 150 + SR is ~ 250 (no codex) + Librarian or Techmarine or Inquisitor is up around 500. So I can get two bombs for your grenade toting DCA in a Stormraven.
Just because it 'isn't good' doesn't mean it won't beat you if you are unprepared for it. 150+ Orks is a tough slog for an army built to kill vehicles.
As for GK / SW being good codexes? Sure. They are good/great codexes. I just don't buy the tier bs.
The raven is 205 for GK. and a techpriest with rad grenades is roughly 90 (also no codex on hand). And if your whittled down DCA squad get assaulted by GK or thunder cav then youre not better in assault. And if i assault you then you dont get a reroll. What does your Uriah-bomb consist of exactly?
This is a pointless part of the discussion. What you are arguing is 'Why take DCA when GK do it better?' Even if the GK storm raven riding, grenade wielding DCA are superior, it does not make the SoB Hit rerolling, +1A touting, FNPDCA not an awesome selection for their codex.
Chosen Praetorian wrote:The raven is 205 for GK. and a techpriest with rad grenades is roughly 90 (also no codex on hand). And if your whittled down DCA squad get assaulted by GK or thunder cav then youre not better in assault. And if i assault you then you dont get a reroll. What does your Uriah-bomb consist of exactly?
So 445 for Techpriest, SR and 10 DCA.
I usually run Uriah + 3 Crusaders + 6 DCA.
And I know I don't get rerolls if you charge me, but I still have the same number of attacks you do.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
calypso2ts wrote:This is a pointless part of the discussion. What you are arguing is 'Why take DCA when GK do it better?' Even if the GK storm raven riding, grenade wielding DCA are superior, it does not make the SoB Hit rerolling, +1A touting, FNPDCA not an awesome selection for their codex.
Completely agree.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spidey0804 wrote:How many times have you played against a competent sisters player?
Everyone's talking about how they run sisters, not how they play against sisters.
Or are you asking because he doesnt' seem to understand how I target saturate with my list?
Chosen Praetorian wrote:And having 3 dominion squads, Uriah and celestine right outside my lines when im playing GK or SW means what? Oh no! 5 expensive mediocre units are right outside my lines! What ever will i do?
I'm not typically one to make personal attacks, but by making this claim you've exposed yourself as either a troll or a fool. Anyone who has played with or against Dominions and Celestine knows that they're both cheap and effective and are probably the single most point efficient options available in the Sisters list.
Chosen Praetorian wrote:Oh yeah... Im cheaper (or in GKs case more expensive but ridiculously OP for my price) and better than them at EVERYTHING. And the cost of a GKDCA in a Storm Raven with a techpriest is roughly 445. Its a bit more than the sisters but it has many more options and playability. Being able to flat out and melta a transport then move 12 and fire 2 more tank eating shots then assault is huge. And horde isnt good with longfangs and purifiers so what the point in preping for something that is seldom seen? And how is tier BS? SW/GK are tier 1 (meaning the best codices in the game). Do you disagree?
It might be "huge" but it's also hugely expensive. 445 points? That's somewhere between 1/3 and 1/4 of a typical army. All that for a single unit that is exceedingly vulnerable once it's out of its ride. Ok. Sounds great. And since you're so in tune with the meta you surely know that no one tools up their lists to take out AV 12.
Chosen Praetorian wrote:The raven is 205 for GK. and a techpriest with rad grenades is roughly 90 (also no codex on hand). And if your whittled down DCA squad get assaulted by GK or thunder cav then youre not better in assault. And if i assault you then you dont get a reroll. What does your Uriah-bomb consist of exactly?
So 445 for Techpriest, SR and 10 DCA.
I usually run Uriah + 3 Crusaders + 6 DCA.
And I know I don't get rerolls if you charge me, but I still have the same number of attacks you do.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
calypso2ts wrote:This is a pointless part of the discussion. What you are arguing is 'Why take DCA when GK do it better?' Even if the GK storm raven riding, grenade wielding DCA are superior, it does not make the SoB Hit rerolling, +1A touting, FNPDCA not an awesome selection for their codex.
Completely agree.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spidey0804 wrote:How many times have you played against a competent sisters player?
Everyone's talking about how they run sisters, not how they play against sisters.
Or are you asking because he doesnt' seem to understand how I target saturate with my list?
Actually this started with why should i run uriah bomb out of a rhino when its going to be wrecked/exploded then shot to death by storm bolter/bolters and assault by supirioir assault units. Has your Uriah bomb been hit by Thunder Cav yet? Im curious to see what would happen against T5 3++. And seeing as how my question wasnt answered earlier ill ask it again. When was the last time you saw sisters top a big tournament?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Amerikon wrote:
Chosen Praetorian wrote:And having 3 dominion squads, Uriah and celestine right outside my lines when im playing GK or SW means what? Oh no! 5 expensive mediocre units are right outside my lines! What ever will i do?
I'm not typically one to make personal attacks, but by making this claim you've exposed yourself as either a troll or a fool. Anyone who has played with or against Dominions and Celestine knows that they're both cheap and effective and are probably the single most point efficient options available in the Sisters list.
Chosen Praetorian wrote:Oh yeah... Im cheaper (or in GKs case more expensive but ridiculously OP for my price) and better than them at EVERYTHING. And the cost of a GKDCA in a Storm Raven with a techpriest is roughly 445. Its a bit more than the sisters but it has many more options and playability. Being able to flat out and melta a transport then move 12 and fire 2 more tank eating shots then assault is huge. And horde isnt good with longfangs and purifiers so what the point in preping for something that is seldom seen? And how is tier BS? SW/GK are tier 1 (meaning the best codices in the game). Do you disagree?
It might be "huge" but it's also hugely expensive. 445 points? That's somewhere between 1/3 and 1/4 of a typical army. All that for a single unit that is exceedingly vulnerable once it's out of its ride. Ok. Sounds great. And since you're so in tune with the meta you surely know that no one tools up their lists to take out AV 12.
Lol well if you see 1/3 or 1/4 of your army in one unit is bad then you need to dump your wisdom onto these paladin playing GK players. Then let them know that people play meltas, psyfleman dreads, Cav with power fists and S10 large blasts. That should change their minds real quick.
Chosen Praetorian wrote:Actually this started with why should i run uriah bomb out of a rhino when its going to be wrecked/exploded then shot to death by storm bolter/bolters and assault by supirioir assault units. Has your Uriah bomb been hit by Thunder Cav yet? Im curious to see what would happen against T5 3++. And seeing as how my question wasnt answered earlier ill ask it again. When was the last time you saw sisters top a big tournament?
Yeah, you're right Thunderwolves would roll a Conclave. How does that make them bad? Thuderwolves are probably the baddest CC unit in the game. Not to mention that w/ a power weapon and a shield they're about 100pts each. I would imagine that any 500 point CC unit would beat the crap out of the Conclave. You've proven nothing.
Chosen Praetorian wrote:Lol well if you see 1/3 or 1/4 of your army in one unit is bad then you need to dump your wisdom onto these paladin playing GK players. Then let them know that people play meltas, psyfleman dreads, Cav with power fists and S10 large blasts. That should change their minds real quick.
Wow. LOL. Paladins and Thunder Cav aren't T3/5++. If you're going to base your army around a unit, it should be one that doesn't die to a stiff breeze.
Actually this started with why should i run uriah bomb out of a rhino when its going to be wrecked/exploded then shot to death by storm bolter/bolters and assault by supirioir assault units. Has your Uriah bomb been hit by Thunder Cav yet? Im curious to see what would happen against T5 3++. And seeing as how my question wasnt answered earlier ill ask it again. When was the last time you saw sisters top a big tournament?
Yeah, charge with rerolls does nice things against thundercav. Remember they (conclave) are a counter-assault unit, not an assault unit.
I haven't seen them top a big tournament, although someone recently got 3rd. When they make up <1% of the tournament going public though, I wouldn't expect that.
Lol well if you see 1/3 or 1/4 of your army in one unit is bad then you need to dump your wisdom onto these paladin playing GK players. Then let them know that people play meltas, psyfleman dreads, Cav with power fists and S10 large blasts. That should change their minds real quick.
Paladin players are my favorite opponent with my sisters.
At this point, it feels like he's just here to tell the sisters tactica that sisters aren't good. Most of his recent statements haven't had a shred of constructive content in them.
It's really weird that he plays the army and wants to browbeat us so bad, but I hadn't read how this started so maybe you guys were too dismissive of his double command squad idea.
For what it's worth, I think the internet's general agreements on the case of sisters lists, are that the really excitingly kitted out units or the efficiently costed ones, are pretty darn obvious. There is some competition to those, in less obvious forms, but they tend to be pretty clunky or end up having a lot of other awkward costs associated with them or things that just don't feel right.
Personally I am not partial to playing with special characters because I like to create my own story and fluff. Now I won't say I am a tactical genius because I lose more often than I win, but I do manage a higher number of draws.
I have set up my army to have a Canoness with powersword, combi-flamer and melta bombs as my commander. She rides with a Celestian squad, kited out with two flamers, the superior has a power sword, combi-flamer and melta bombs, and the unit has four extra girls and a simulcrum. They take a Rhino with Dozer, extra storm bolter and hunter killer missile.
The theory behind the unit is; four flamers (plus six bolt pistols) unloading into an enemy unit followed up by an assault with the unit, who are possibly at +1I and preferred enemy or +1S or both, will do terrible things to all but the hardest of opponents.
Those opponents who are too hard for this unit will likely be shot up by melta-wielding doms and immos or exorcists.
so, hypothetical question. If you were not allowed special characters for whatever reason, how would that change the set up of your army?
*edit* also, first time poster here, been watching this thread for a while felt I'd jump in.
Lucre wrote: At this point, it feels like he's just here to tell the sisters tactica that sisters aren't good. Most of his recent statements haven't had a shred of constructive content in them.
It's really weird that he plays the army and wants to browbeat us so bad, but I hadn't read how this started so maybe you guys were too dismissive of his double command squad idea.
For what it's worth, I think the internet's general agreements on the case of sisters lists, are that the really excitingly kitted out units or the efficiently costed ones, are pretty darn obvious. There is some competition to those, in less obvious forms, but they tend to be pretty clunky or end up having a lot of other awkward costs associated with them or things that just don't feel right.
I started by giving examples of what i thought was good. Asked why they think the units they like are good and all i got in return was CONCLAVE GOOD, CANONESS/SCS BAD! So i changed my side of the convo as to why their units were bad.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pretre wrote:
Lol well if you see 1/3 or 1/4 of your army in one unit is bad then you need to dump your wisdom onto these paladin playing GK players. Then let them know that people play meltas, psyfleman dreads, Cav with power fists and S10 large blasts. That should change their minds real quick.
Paladin players are my favorite opponent with my sisters.
I agree 110% on this. Love insta killing high point models with my WHOLE army!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Amerikon wrote:
Chosen Praetorian wrote:Actually this started with why should i run uriah bomb out of a rhino when its going to be wrecked/exploded then shot to death by storm bolter/bolters and assault by supirioir assault units. Has your Uriah bomb been hit by Thunder Cav yet? Im curious to see what would happen against T5 3++. And seeing as how my question wasnt answered earlier ill ask it again. When was the last time you saw sisters top a big tournament?
Yeah, you're right Thunderwolves would roll a Conclave. How does that make them bad? Thuderwolves are probably the baddest CC unit in the game. Not to mention that w/ a power weapon and a shield they're about 100pts each. I would imagine that any 500 point CC unit would beat the crap out of the Conclave. You've proven nothing.
Chosen Praetorian wrote:Lol well if you see 1/3 or 1/4 of your army in one unit is bad then you need to dump your wisdom onto these paladin playing GK players. Then let them know that people play meltas, psyfleman dreads, Cav with power fists and S10 large blasts. That should change their minds real quick.
Wow. LOL. Paladins and Thunder Cav aren't T3/5++. If you're going to base your army around a unit, it should be one that doesn't die to a stiff breeze.
Let me talk to you real slow. Ive proven that the second highest % army played is one that youre arguing against. Ive proven by your own words that they have a CC unit that will roflroll your CC unit. I will compare Cav to Conclave because in a high % of your games theres a good chance that youll fight Cav... You know, that CC unit that will roll you? So theres my proof to youre argument that conclave is bad.
Chosen Praetorian wrote: But when people try to show some type of variance away from the internet norm then theyre automatically told that theyre wrong and the list will never work? That stifles expansion and adaptation.
I agree, but I'm not sure that is what is happening here. I think people just are not liking your unit as much as you want them to. Apart from the canoness, I don't recall anyone saying anything sucked, or was useless. Consensus is, it just isn't quite useful enough.
Chosen Praetorian wrote: Lets just pretend that everyone thinks the Uriah-bomb unit is amazing, that its the best unit in the codex and something to be feared. Other units in the book that youre willing to bring are decent but not great (the dominions are probably the next best thing compared to Uriah-bombs). So when first turn starts the number 1 target is your Uriah-bomb toting rhino. The fact that youre claiming it ALWAYS makes it across the board and ALWAYS get into assault proves the ignorance of your opponents. If the unit is as hardcore as you claim then dumping half an army worth of shots into it isnt a waste. Youre creating a list that doesnt practice good target saturation.
When turn one starts the immediate target is generally dominions, because they are out front melting vehicles. Beyond that I have two units of penitent engines, an exorcist, and two units of repentia. None of these are things which can be ignored. The only thing no one is shooting at is usually my BSS, which helps immensely in objective games.
Chosen Praetorian wrote: And comparing the sisters' DCA to GKDCA is what really makes me not like the unit. It cant be in an assault vehicle, it cant have grenades that reduce demons and psykers to I1 and reduce T by 1 while at the same time giving them a S boost of +1. I dont see how bringing a unit that has an exact copy of better quality in another codex makes any sense.
Even if the GK version were clearly superior, what is it to me that another codex has a better assault unit? I can't buy GK conclaves. I can't buy Thunder Wolf Calvary either, but that doesn't mean I should just cede the assault phase to my opponents. Uriah fills a roll in the dex, and he fills it well. What GK can do only matters for fighting GK, and I'm always happy to fight any GK list that doesn't rely on razorspam henchmen, because I will generally win.
Chosen Praetorian wrote:Let me talk to you real slow. Ive proven that the second highest % army played is one that youre arguing against. Ive proven by your own words that they have a CC unit that will roflroll your CC unit. I will compare Cav to Conclave because in a high % of your games theres a good chance that youll fight Cav... You know, that CC unit that will roll you? So theres my proof to youre argument that conclave is bad.
Do you understand how points work? By your same logic here I can claim that Thunderwolves are not worth taking because I can roll a unit of them with my 1500pt army.
There's always going to be a unit that can beat another unit and there are a few things that the Conclave doesn't do well against. But since we're not idiots we know not to try and send the Conclave after those units. Try to come up with a 200ish point unit that can beat a Uriah-Bomb in CC. It's not easy. I think Wraiths can do it b/c they have those whips that drop you to Init 1, but that's about it.
No one is trying to argue that Conclaves are perfect. They, of course, have weaknesses. You don't have to take them if you don't like them, but don't expect to come into a forum discussion, say that they suck, and then get upset when someone disagrees.
Chosen Praetorian wrote:I started by giving examples of what i thought was good. Asked why they think the units they like are good and all i got in return was CONCLAVE GOOD, CANONESS/SCS BAD! So i changed my side of the convo as to why their units were bad.
Nobody did that at all. We said, in reasoned explanations, why the SCS was inferior to the Conclave for the points you paid.
Let me talk to you real slow. Ive proven that the second highest % army played is one that youre arguing against. Ive proven by your own words that they have a CC unit that will roflroll your CC unit. I will compare Cav to Conclave because in a high % of your games theres a good chance that youll fight Cav... You know, that CC unit that will roll you? So theres my proof to youre argument that conclave is bad.
Don't be a jerk. Ever hear of shoot their assaulty and assault their shooty? Yeah, if you just charge TWC, you will lose. If you shoot them and then assault them? Yeah, not so much.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hollowman wrote: I agree, but I'm not sure that is what is happening here. I think people just are not liking your unit as much as you want them to. Apart from the canoness, I don't recall anyone saying anything sucked, or was useless. Consensus is, it just isn't quite useful enough.
Absolutely, he wants us to say 'Wow, we never thought of that... An SCS IS better than a conclave. Yes, it is okay at what it does and can provide a lot of melta, but it is not better or more points efficient than either Celestine or a Conclave. Hence, I'll stick with C&C.
When turn one starts the immediate target is generally dominions, because they are out front melting vehicles. Beyond that I have two units of penitent engines, an exorcist, and two units of repentia. None of these are things which can be ignored. The only thing no one is shooting at is usually my BSS, which helps immensely in objective games.
Exactly. Sisters are all about immediate pressure on the midfield. That keeps folks from shooting the backfield. Same idea applies to the conclave. They are too worried about dominions to sweat the conclave. Sure, they could ignore the Doms, but that would be a poor choice as well.
novatomato wrote:The theory behind the unit is; four flamers (plus six bolt pistols) unloading into an enemy unit followed up by an assault with the unit, who are possibly at +1I and preferred enemy or +1S or both, will do terrible things to all but the hardest of opponents.
Those opponents who are too hard for this unit will likely be shot up by melta-wielding doms and immos or exorcists.
This is similar to how I use my Seraphim. It's probably the only way to make the Canoness "work" in the army. And again, it just kills me that they took away our Blessed Weapons.
novatomato wrote:so, hypothetical question. If you were not allowed special characters for whatever reason, how would that change the set up of your army?
I'd probably begrudgingly take a vanilla Confessor and a Conclave. I think that our non-named HQ choices are just appallingly bad.
Lol done with this conversation. Yall can continue to think your non tourney topping lists are good. Im giving you examples as to what will happen if you play non water head mouth breathers. I gave examples of units that i think would be good in this meta (because you almost never see horde) and i got responses about how much better Uriah-bomb is even after i gave situations as to why it was bad and responces of "well my opponents let them live so they have to be good." YES i would shoot the conclave with my shooty units and YES i would assault the dominion with my assaulty units (or hell, a squad of tactical marines. Dominion blow in CC so once they've shot you their biggest threat is over). I dont have to provide anymore proof. Ill just allow the top 16 results to speak for me. And if you have the argument that no one plays them at tourneys then you need to ask yourself why they dont play them. Its because they see the better choices.
calypso2ts wrote:This is a pointless part of the discussion. What you are arguing is 'Why take DCA when GK do it better?' Even if the GK storm raven riding, grenade wielding DCA are superior, it does not make the SoB Hit rerolling, +1A touting, FNPDCA not an awesome selection for their codex.
+1. I find the strawman arguments like that less than worthwhile.
Chosen Praetorian wrote:Lol done with this conversation. Yall can continue to think your non tourney topping lists are good. Im giving you examples as to what will happen if you play non water head mouth breathers.
You are just a stunning example of good manners. How do you know what our results are? What're your results? Where's your tourney topping list?
I gave examples of units that i think would be good in this meta (because you almost never see horde) and i got responses about how much better Uriah-bomb is even after i gave situations as to why it was bad and responces of "well my opponents let them live so they have to be good."
You are again intentionally distorting the conversation. In almost every game, my opponent tried to take down the UB and due to cover, invuls, other units and FNP, they got to where they were going.
YES i would shoot the conclave with my shooty units and YES i would assault the dominion with my assaulty units (or hell, a squad of tactical marines. Dominion blow in CC so once they've shot you their biggest threat is over). I dont have to provide anymore proof. Ill just allow the top 16 results to speak for me. And if you have the argument that no one plays them at tourneys then you need to ask yourself why they dont play them. Its because they see the better choices.
CSB.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jancoran wrote:
calypso2ts wrote:This is a pointless part of the discussion. What you are arguing is 'Why take DCA when GK do it better?' Even if the GK storm raven riding, grenade wielding DCA are superior, it does not make the SoB Hit rerolling, +1A touting, FNPDCA not an awesome selection for their codex.
+1. I find the strawman arguments like that less than worthwhile.
Luckily, I think he's taking his toys and going home at this point. We may not see any more of his 'contributions'.
Amerikon wrote:This is similar to how I use my Seraphim. It's probably the only way to make the Canoness "work" in the army. And again, it just kills me that they took away our Blessed Weapons.
not to mention jump packs for the canoness, oh well lemons into lemon aid and all that.
Amerikon wrote:I'd probably begrudgingly take a vanilla Confessor and a Conclave. I think that our non-named HQ choices are just appallingly bad.
The vanilla HQ's certainly do seem very lacking compared to our three named characters, but not having those powerhouses (relative to our own book of course) would not change your armies design at all aside from that?
pretre wrote:I would go dual conclave, I think. You need to have counter-charge and not having Celestine or Uriah would make me amp it up a bit.
Also, if I had to run a canoness. I would run triple MMSCS, no question. Probably combi plas or melta on the Canoness, but keep her cheap
The problem I see with keeping the canoness cheap is any squad she gets attached to she gives nothing aside from +1 to faith. This may come from my less than stellar ability on the tabletop but I do like having insurance policies in place. a Melta Bomb is 5 points and is handy to have in the event the squad is assaulted by a dread, or Sentinal, or whatever other walkers they have. Similarly a power sword can earn that extra kill or two which means you are taking advantage of that extra point of Initiative over the rest of the squad while the combi-flamer/melta/plasma is useful in that Must Kill scenario. I definitely think Rosarius' are much too expensive and probably should have already been included in the Canoness' profile. Eviscerators are great, but not on IC's who are t3 with no invul save. Those anti-psyker combis are a complete joke but if you max out on them with Canoness's/Confessors and Priests you might find they actually do something . . if you face an Grey Knights, all other psykers would have other squad members take the bolts instead. Inferno Pistols are pretty neat and could be useful if you take her with Repentia's letting them at the juicy insides of a chimera rather then the chimera itself.
In the end I always seem to end up with a rather expensive HQ, who may not make her points back on her own but becomes a force multiplier for a unit she hangs with.
I may have dragged on a bit and wandered too and fro with that, my apologies.
Chosen Praetorian wrote:Lol done with this conversation. Yall can continue to think your non tourney topping lists are good. Im giving you examples as to what will happen if you play non water head mouth breathers. I gave examples of units that i think would be good in this meta (because you almost never see horde) and i got responses about how much better Uriah-bomb is even after i gave situations as to why it was bad and responces of "well my opponents let them live so they have to be good." YES i would shoot the conclave with my shooty units and YES i would assault the dominion with my assaulty units (or hell, a squad of tactical marines. Dominion blow in CC so once they've shot you their biggest threat is over). I dont have to provide anymore proof. Ill just allow the top 16 results to speak for me. And if you have the argument that no one plays them at tourneys then you need to ask yourself why they dont play them. Its because they see the better choices.
This is unnecessarily hostile. It is also difficult to read because you refuse to use paragraphs.
On the internet you almost never see horde lists, at local RTT's and GT's there is a pretty good chance to hit at least one horde army. That alone, however, is not a reason to foresake the Battle Conclave. The conclave also eats almost every squad you throw it at.
I think running into GK's running a Techmarine with DCA in a Storm Raven is a bit more specific than running into a 'horde.' Also, the fact that their several hundred point more expensive deathstar beats a conclave is not a good argument against a conclave. That super unit also wrecks the SCS and most units in the game. Then again, you could just sit in a crater with the BC so if they do charge you, you go first (unless they get some nifty psykotrope effect, but nothing to be done there)
Sadly, the SCS cannot really stand on its own. It needs Faith to pull off its relentless gimmick and it is too expensive to run on its own. The Canoness is just so inefficient adding her to it does not make it appreciably better for its cost.
The problem is, there are no top 16 results that prove your point at all. What SoB lists are in the top of a GT with a SCS? There was a good showing by frgsnwntr (I know this is wrong for the spelling), and I do not think he ran that vaunted SCS.
Also, for the record you present your opponents with difficult choices by presenting them with several potent threats. Not by presenting them with several mediocre units who are so not noteworthy it is difficult to figure out which terribad unit to shoot first. I think I am okay with them pouring their anti-infantry shooting into a T4 unit with cover and FNP...
No prob, Nova. My issue is that I see her as a tax on taking the rest of the unit. No loadout I put on her is going to make her terribly good at what she does, although an Eviscerator is tempting as a vehicle killer. So instead of dropping more points into the tax, I leave it as is.
novatomato wrote:so, hypothetical question. If you were not allowed special characters for whatever reason, how would that change the set up of your army?
*edit* also, first time poster here, been watching this thread for a while felt I'd jump in.
In my case, it would be fine. I wouldn't have to change the army. It would just give me 90 points for a normal Confessor. I'd have no fearless bubble, which is a bummer and I'd have to spend points on a Simulacrum Imperialis. So I think it would make almost no difference to my list come to think about it. I already use a Canoness which is unnamed. Can already still get a fair amount of the benefits from the normal Confessor.
That isn't a bad question. I ran a tournament wherein no special characetrs were allowed. That was kind of an interesting fun little "Lets see what people would do" kind of thing. We only did it once, but it made for some good gaming and gave everyone a break from the HeroHammer thing.
Jancoran wrote:That isn't a bad question. I ran a tournament wherein no special characetrs were allowed. That was kind of an interesting fun little "Lets see what people would do" kind of thing. We only did it once, but it made for some good gaming and gave everyone a break from the HeroHammer thing.
Not to drag off topic, but no SCs just unfairly penalizes some codexes. Namely, SOB, Dark Angels and any codex that has a FOC swap that requires a character.
It doesn't stop Herohammer as a lot of codexes have generic characters that are just as nasty as unique characters. My nasty SW list has no Unique characters but has some serious hero action going on in it. TWC Lord and Rune Priest.
Amerikon wrote:I'd probably begrudgingly take a vanilla Confessor and a Conclave. I think that our non-named HQ choices are just appallingly bad.
The vanilla HQ's certainly do seem very lacking compared to our three named characters, but not having those powerhouses (relative to our own book of course) would not change your armies design at all aside from that?
Not really. In most cases Celestine is my only HQ so that section of the FOC doesn't really dictate much about my army composition. Although taking a Confessor and a Conclave would force me to drop one unit to pay for them.
I subscribe to the thought that Heavy Support and Fast Attack contain our best units. So no matter what HQ I've got I'll probably start my list by maxing out those sections and then try to figure out what else I can get. Thinking about it a little more, not having the buffs from Uriah, might make a single Conclave ineffective, so it might be double Conclave or nothing. If I have to take a Canoness, I might try to use that zany double SCS list I posted a couple of days ago.
I've said this before, but it's on topic so I'll repeat myself. I think the SCS only works as an "extra" Heavy Support choice. The unit by itself is points inefficient (it's a 50pt premium over a Retributor squad for basically FNP), and adding things to it to try and make their Relentless AoF work actually makes the unit worse. So keeping them as a static heavy weapon unit is how I'd use them. That means you have a Canoness that you have to stick somewhere. So I'd put her with Celestians since she has some obvious synergy with them and make a flamer/weak counter charge unit like you're using.
The more I talk about this, the more I think it might actually not suck. I might actually have to try it out.
Amerikon wrote:I'd probably begrudgingly take a vanilla Confessor and a Conclave. I think that our non-named HQ choices are just appallingly bad.
The vanilla HQ's certainly do seem very lacking compared to our three named characters, but not having those powerhouses (relative to our own book of course) would not change your armies design at all aside from that?
Not really. In most cases Celestine is my only HQ so that section of the FOC doesn't really dictate much about my army composition. Although taking a Confessor and a Conclave would force me to drop one unit to pay for them.
I subscribe to the thought that Heavy Support and Fast Attack contain our best units. So no matter what HQ I've got I'll probably start my list by maxing out those sections and then try to figure out what else I can get. Thinking about it a little more, not having the buffs from Uriah, might make a single Conclave ineffective, so it might be double Conclave or nothing. If I have to take a Canoness, I might try to use that zany double SCS list I posted a couple of days ago.
I've said this before, but it's on topic so I'll repeat myself. I think the SCS only works as an "extra" Heavy Support choice. The unit by itself is points inefficient (it's a 50pt premium over a Retributor squad for basically FNP), and adding things to it to try and make their Relentless AoF work actually makes the unit worse. So keeping them as a static heavy weapon unit is how I'd use them. That means you have a Canoness that you have to stick somewhere. So I'd put her with Celestians since she has some obvious synergy with them and make a flamer/weak counter charge unit like you're using.
The more I talk about this, the more I think it might actually not suck. I might actually have to try it out.
I would be very interested to hear how it fares for you.
Spidey0804 wrote:OK so im looking at building my Nova Open List and I wanted to start practicing with it. Im looking at a triple dom triple exorcist list. My question comes with should I go THF Immy trip melta or TWMM double Flamer Combi Melta on the squad?
I wouldn't field a heavy-flamer Immolator on a bet. I regularly field Dominions with flamers and I wouldn't think of changing for games around 1,500-points, but at larger levels, I've sometimes wished for more melta. Some games you'll want the flamers, some games you'll want the meltas.
I do not like the Canoness model, I do not like the options she has, I do not like the SCS, I do not like Dialogus' or Celestians.
I feel as though the Canoness and the SCS bring nothing to the table I can't already bring with other units.
SOB have tons of shooting, what SOB does not have tons of is a reliable CC unit.
(in my opinion, I know people like Seraphim, I really like them too they look cool, but I don't like how much they cost, in game and in money)
I have no problems with anyone taking a Canoness and a SCS, everyone has their own ideas of how their army should work, their own quirks and preferences on how to play SoB.
But from where I stand, I feel like I have enough things shooting with all the other unit selection categories.
Personally I like Saint Celestine and Uriah, I dislike kyrinov, I feel an almost palpable reek of arrogance coming from kyrinov's ,model, maybe's its just how I see the model after reading his fluff and seeing his character.
Where as I like Saint Celestine's whole savior character, and I like Jacobus because he seems to be really down-to earth in the trenches with his fellow ecclesiarchy members. These two are established characters that I can kind of look up to and kind of like imagining my army taking heart in the fact that Saint Celestine and Jacobus are in their serried ranks.
I would rather take a plain jane confessor over Kyrinov, if there was a GW confessor/priest model I liked, I'm looking for a proxy for it that might fit the confessor bill.
Dervos wrote:Personally I like Saint Celestine and Uriah, I dislike kyrinov, I feel an almost palpable reek of arrogance coming from kyrinov's ,model, maybe's its just how I see the model after reading his fluff and seeing his character.
pretre wrote:
Not to drag off topic, but no SCs just unfairly penalizes some codexes. Namely, SOB, Dark Angels and any codex that has a FOC swap that requires a character.
.
We had fun and the point was to do something different. So it was fine. We weren't trying to be "fair" to any one codex. We just wanted to play something different and we got it. No one who found it "unfun" had to play, so hey.
I don't want to suggest any major changes since we have some fundamental disagreements about certain things, but I think there are a few ways you can tighten the list up a little bit.
0. When I put it into Army Builder it was 1980 points, so we can get a few freebies right out of the gate.
1. The Canoness doesn't need melta bombs if she's got an Eviscerator. 3 swings at 6+2D6 is way better than 1 at 8+2D6 so you shouldn't ever even have any occasion to use the bombs.
2. In my experience it's a really good idea to give your Seraphim Superior an Eviscerator. It gives the unit a lot more utility and is a credible threat against walkers.
3. What's your plan for Kyrinov? Is he going to join up with the Canoness and the SCS? If so, drop their Simulacrum since he already has one.
4. Since you've got 10 in the Conclave, I'm guessing you plan to use it unsupported. If you don't have a real solid strategy for Kyrinov, you'd probably benefit from switching him out with
Uriah, dropping one of the Arcos, and putting Uriah in command of the Conclave.
5. If you trim the Retributor squad down to minimum size, you can "upgrade" your Celestian squad to another 4x melta Dominion squad. In my experience the Rets don't really need the extra bodies.
6. At 2000 points you might struggle in objective missions with only two troops choices. A smart commander will probably try to target your troops to eliminate your chances of winning early on.
Dervos wrote:Personally I like Saint Celestine and Uriah, I dislike kyrinov, I feel an almost palpable reek of arrogance coming from kyrinov's ,model, maybe's its just how I see the model after reading his fluff and seeing his character.
This is awesome.
This is the reason I utterly like the model, really.
Amerikon wrote:I don't want to suggest any major changes since we have some fundamental disagreements about certain things, but I think there are a few ways you can tighten the list up a little bit.
0. When I put it into Army Builder it was 1980 points, so we can get a few freebies right out of the gate.
1. The Canoness doesn't need melta bombs if she's got an Eviscerator. 3 swings at 6+2D6 is way better than 1 at 8+2D6 so you shouldn't ever even have any occasion to use the bombs.
2. In my experience it's a really good idea to give your Seraphim Superior an Eviscerator. It gives the unit a lot more utility and is a credible threat against walkers.
3. What's your plan for Kyrinov? Is he going to join up with the Canoness and the SCS? If so, drop their Simulacrum since he already has one.
4. Since you've got 10 in the Conclave, I'm guessing you plan to use it unsupported. If you don't have a real solid strategy for Kyrinov, you'd probably benefit from switching him out with
Uriah, dropping one of the Arcos, and putting Uriah in command of the Conclave.
5. If you trim the Retributor squad down to minimum size, you can "upgrade" your Celestian squad to another 4x melta Dominion squad. In my experience the Rets don't really need the extra bodies.
6. At 2000 points you might struggle in objective missions with only two troops choices. A smart commander will probably try to target your troops to eliminate your chances of winning early on.
The meltabomb is an oops. I actually had the eviscerator on the Seraphim originally and not the Canoness, and just switched them out. Thye meltabomb does need to come off, yes. Probably add it to the Seraphim.
My Seraphim are not needed for antitank duties, for all the obvious reasons and they lose combat badly now, twice as badly when at this size. So expending TOO much on them makes a lot less sense than it used to. I just want them to flame the crap out of someone and then do a little damage before they die. I am in general unconcerned with their fate in this list or any other. They no longer can be very central to the win with the nerfs they got. But they are a very valid threat to most enemies in the shooting phase and I can use them to steal forward movement at the worst of times and that's worth something to me tactically.
Kyrinov ideally goes in the Celestian squad to providee the bubble and then jumps out to join, when needed, the Sororitas Command Squad, though this isn't necessary as often as you might think it is. His ability to kee pthe Dominion fighting in round 2 if they get charged is useful (bubble) and it allows me to draw attackers in, and then finish them in a blizzard of attacks from the real melee threats. He's also a great way to improve my Sororitas Command Squads chances at being relentless So depending on how much armor I'm facing, he may have to go with them. The other way I use him against squishier armies is just to reserve him and hammer smaller unit remnants. While he is no combat monster, he and his Celestians are very capable of killing 5 man squads and holding the line when they can charge. There's a lot of places he can go but at the forefront is usually what I do.
The Conclave is used to counter attack so it is usually IN support of another unit. The Fearless bubble helps you sucker people into a combat they think they can easily win, but all they did is draw themselves closer to the real threat and win or lose, they are stuck. The Arco-Flagellents are very nice. STR 5 and a TON of attacks makes them terrors at prying open Rhinos. 20 STR 5 attacks on a tank that moved 6" is getting 2 penetrating and 2 glancing hits on most rear armor. So in a worst case scneario where the Multimeltas didn't do their job(s), you have an answer. Against hordes: good lawd. And against normal troops those 20 attacks will get ya 2-3 dead MEQ. Their FnP somewhat obviates the need for Uriah's presence and of course, there is the issue of being out in the open after a charge: cardinal sin. This mix helps me be hearty (2 storm shields, yahoo) and try to end myself in combat but still win. Doesn't always work. Obviously. But Uriah makes it impossible to end in combat and I dislike that element of him (even though he is awesome sauce).
The Dominion thing is absolutely true. I had already thought of doing that. The reason I haven't is, this list literally has one of EVERY thing in the codex. Check for yourself. 20 KP in all. So the idea was to see what the army, as a cohesive force, could do. The goal wasn't to maximize everything. Oddly though, even though I didn't really foresee it, this army has kicked so much ass that I sort of find myself hard pressed to find a compelling reason to change its form even though the details can be tweaked. It is just amazingly brutal. I expect no one on a forum to take that at face value, and I guess Ive grown accustomed to people questioning my lists because they see a list and not a strategy. All I can say is that I agree: an extra Dominions squad is exactly what I'd change first when I ever get around to wanting to maximize this baby. Its totally sound advice.
As for the Troops, they often reserve but in actual games heres what happens: I have a metric ass-ton of units. Enemies find it difficult if not downright impossible to reach them through the layers of defense (and I mean layers LITERALLY). Just imagine what the battle field looks like with that many THINGS cluttering it.
The enemy are OFTEN substantially weakened by the time the Sisters of Battle units appear, but they certainly WILL try to kill them; . However they wont be allowed to do it early and they wont be at full strength when they try if line of sight and other threats aren't consuming their attention in the first place. Like all "hordes", the problem is getting past the shell, especially if its a fast advancing shell! Of course it can be done but its dangerous and a lot of armies dont have enough of the right types of units to try. A Blood Angel tried getting to my backfield with DS'ing combat squads once. When the time came the clutter forced him to a flank... not good for him. Lol. Couldn't have been worse. His Vanguard did a good job but it was too little to impact the game. He lost too much too fast.
Consider that a Seraphim squad does 11 wounds to MEQ before saves just with the 4 Flamers whern hitting a 5 man squad. pistols do about 4 more (asuming Acts of Faith here). So getting hit with that unit can (and should ideally) end a 5 man squad. The Dominion can kill an entire typical 5 man squad in its sleep. So can the Sororitas Comand Squad. As can the Conclave. And the Retributors can, with one volley do about 4 unsaved wounds. The Exorcist is averaging 3. Repentias when they arrive? Lots.
So I mean you are putting a serious amount of Marines out of business in round 2. the slowed amounts of high level firepower the enemy wades through to try to get to you is quite something and so much of it can get the jump on ya.
There's no perfect list but with so much pain waiting in the backfield for ya, Gawds forbid you should include actual bolter fire into the mix! hehehe. And then theres the Penitent Engine in reserve the enemy might want to think about when they are selecting their landing zones...
Jancoran wrote:My Seraphim are not needed for antitank duties, for all the obvious reasons and they lose combat badly now, twice as badly when at this size. So expending TOO much on them makes a lot less sense than it used to. I just want them to flame the crap out of someone and then do a little damage before they die. I am in general unconcerned with their fate in this list or any other. They no longer can be very central to the win with the nerfs they got. But they are a very valid threat to most enemies in the shooting phase and I can use them to steal forward movement at the worst of times and that's worth something to me tactically.
I completely understand this. I never gave my VSS any weapons until I repeatedly found myself in a handful of situations where I desperately wished I had an Eviscerator. I can see how it might not apply to your list since you have a handful of things that can break walkers in CC. That turned out to be a big weakness in my army. All that said, you seem to have a pretty good handle on how all your stuff works together
Yes Seraphim were my favorite unit for a very long time., tough to see them so diminished. Hit and run is harder to pull off also (though when it works... they can still REALLY earn their points).
The Eviscerator is a strong play on the unit since you know you will likely lose but can even it up enough to try the Hit and Run. Flaming a unit 4 times hurts. Doing it twice, well.. priceless really. So when I really get down to optimizing, I will likely try to find points for the Seraphim Eviscerator again. They just lose so badly so often that it's tough to justify, on some level, for what is really a pure shooting unit used for tactical position now, for the most part.
As you say, I have 8 units that can pretty reliably kill tanks and infantry alike, accompanied with competent hammers. That also makes it sting less not to put the Eviscerator in there.
And because I put the army together in this eclectic Petri dish fashion (I refer to it as my Petri dish list in fact) I have gotten to see everything the army can do in its most "pure form" and you can color me impressed. I was a LOUD detractor of the new SOB paradigm, but I do like the results.
My next stage list will have likely have the two Dominion units in it but... I am toying with how to get a 3rd troops choice in. Thats the most important change I can make in this list, in my opinion. I would almost say that is MORE important to do than actually doing a second Dominion squad.
Its a precarious balancing act. I need 159 points to add the Sisters squad in Dozer Rhino if I go to 5 Retriburtors.
If I drop the Celestians, I'd end up with 7 points to spend. Theres the Seraphim Eviscerator points if I drop spotlights. Kyrinov could not ride with 10 Sisters as he can with 5 Celestians.
Downsides: lose the multimelta range on the Celestian Squad, and the added combat ferocity of STR 4 and Kyrinov in the unit etc... Also, this would be instead of another Dominion Squad.
Upside: another scoring unit, more bolter shots, same basic firepower (2 meltas and combi-melta). More models on the table.
The alternative is to do a Dominion Squad. Dominions cost me 216 with Dozer Rhino. Losing the Celestians I am still 14 points shy to do it. If I make them a Flamer Dominion Squad I can do it by just dropping the Celestians. Again, can't take Kyrinov and they are entirely a shooting unit so again we lose the ability to carry the bubble forward unless we use the Sororitas Command Squad, but then you'd convert their immolator into a Rhino. Only problem with that is, no other Rhino in the army is an ideal choice for an Immolator. The Retributor Rhino won't be likely to fire as it carries Sisters Repentia and will be zooming til it dies (probably). The one for the Conclave cant change. The one for the Sisters cant be changed to Immolators because they wont fit, and they must be protected to the bitter end.
So in a wierd way, the Celestians make the most sense for carrying the bubble forward!!! I suppose the Dominions could just be a two-melta +combi-melta/Flamer version with Kyrinov in there and Kyrinov just stays in the Rhino when they get there. Totally possible. it just leaves them less capable of their job and more vulnerable than I'd like them to be. But that is an option. On the other hand, you could have a scoring unit with two flamers/meltas and though they might not be twin-linked hey...still not bad.
Here it is, My RTT/ GT list for the rest of the year. After dropping Celestine and shortening up the Seraphims I was able to put a full BC squad and Uriah back into the mix. I want to go against a Wraith list with this to see how it fairs but I think Im going to be good even against them. Repentia have been golden and people just can never get away from them. I think I have just about mastered moving with them and I have shifted them more into a disabling turn 2 or 3 strike squad vs the traditional run as fast as you can across the board Ideology. I have been practicing late midfield annihilation tactics making most of my hard hitting strikes to come turn 3 and 4 and 5 vs the earlier Rnds.
I have be placing the Repentia all but on the back board edge and just making them walk 6 inches so by turn 2 they have advanced 12 inches( less if i can make them walk through terrain). Meaning I have a heavy hitting CC units that can combat against a drop-pod/ dread attack on turn 1, 2 ,3 and possible 4 and 5 Solving the deep-striking issues/ being out of assault range against alpha strikers and as they are on the flanks of my army. They are the only thing there for out-flankers to run into. On the turn an out-flanker comes in I can usually charge them the next turn with the move, fleet, assault average of 15 inches. In essence I have a 50 inch bubble that i can center my army in that now has outflank and infiltration defensiveness against. Meanwhile dead center of the flanking Repentia are the 2 PEs also advancing behind the Dominions.
The Battle sisters then can advance 6 inches, Rip off 3 Hunter killers and 24 shots at anything within 24 inches that the Dominion/ Immolators have ripped open. Seraphims depending on the mission will be either deep striking on filling up the hole around the PEs to keep them moving forward, my Cat Corral-er Squad. Retributors take up high firing positions if possible and just keep throwing rounds down range.
While the DCA just sit and wait for the dust to settle, responding appropriately to HP threats to Objectives/ riding to the rescue.
The Synergy of the army is like a big pincer. The Claw can open up, draw you in and then snap shut on something that has advanced too close to it. Or it drives it self forward in a spear head followed by 2 waves of hard hitting CC with supporting fire coming from heavy weapons and BSS.
Spidey0804 wrote:I have be placing the Repentia all but on the back board edge and just making them walk 6 inches so by turn 2 they have advanced 12 inches( less if i can make them walk through terrain).
Rage only forces you to move in the movement phase? (Meaning, you don't have to fleet if you don't want to.)
Spidey0804 wrote:I have be placing the Repentia all but on the back board edge and just making them walk 6 inches so by turn 2 they have advanced 12 inches( less if i can make them walk through terrain).
Rage only forces you to move in the movement phase? (Meaning, you don't have to fleet if you don't want to.)
I know. Just illustrating that I'm trying to get them to move actually as slow as possible.
pretre wrote:I still think that using rhinos from the Rets would give you a lot more tactical control, but that's me.
I really don't need them. I only have to cover 24 inches of the board, to midfield and back. If they go past that in Turns 4 and 5 I'm cool with that but I really dont want them anywhere need midfield till turn 3ish or so.
pretre wrote:I guess I just don't get it then. When you need a countercharge unit, you need it; you can't wait for it to walk there.
Dont think of it as a counter-charge unit, think of it as a chargeable/ Outflank/ Infiltrate/ Anti-Drop Pod/ Dreadnought/ Deep-striker denial unit. That has a 26 inch radial effective striking distance.
His repentia play defense for him in other words. they are dangerous and getting behind is lines isa fools gambit while they are there. On the other hand they fail to be target priorities a lot of the time because they are so far back that anything in front of them is not going to see them for quite some time.
In some missions where no outflanking nor infiltrating is possible for the enemy army he can play them aggressively. but even then, their rage makes them more useful as a "hold the line" type of thing rather than a "in your face" kind fo thing.
Jancoran wrote:His repentia play defense for him in other words. they are dangerous and getting behind is lines isa fools gambit while they are there. On the other hand they fail to be target priorities a lot of the time because they are so far back that anything in front of them is not going to see them for quite some time.
In some missions where no outflanking nor infiltrating is possible for the enemy army he can play them aggressively. but even then, their rage makes them more useful as a "hold the line" type of thing rather than a "in your face" kind fo thing.
Well, rage isn't an issue in a transport, and using them as an in your face transported unit has it's advantages - Repentia are not begging for small arms fire as the only unit on foot, you can direct them towards a group of units and dump them where you can be sure of a good charge, possibly a multi charge, and are more likely to have nearby targets after your first combat.
That said, BSS are in desperate need of any help they can get, so keeping something nasty in the backfield might be worthwhile. Maybe I'll try it with my PE in games where I expect infiltrating/deep striking units. Much as I try to put some faith in my basic sisters to do something to defend themselves, they... Don't.
I am really seeing the benefit of having a repentia unit in the back field.
They are just perfect for babysitting those juicy Retributor squads as Spidey has demonstrated, and hanging out with a BSS sitting on a home objective.
It may not be hard to shift a ten girl squad, or even a twenty, but throw ten Repentia into the mix and the opponent has to decide between killing off the BSS then getting torn up by the Repentia or kill some Repentia and not be able to shift the BSS squad.
Dare I say it . . . . . are Repentia the key to making a Foot Sisters list?
Then again, I may be crazy and completely incorrect in my assumptions.
they are an important tool. I feel the Battle Conclave is really the work horse and rightly feared. But the Repentia put the fear of the Emperor in ALL unit types, and that's a rare and usually expensive thing. IN Sisters of Battle you pay a reasonable price for an exceptionally reliable threat in melee. The rage rule hampers them but thats why he sets them in the back.
I think the Conclave is the real key. Repentias just give them the chance to be. Some will see them as the lesser of two evils. Lol.
Spidey0804 wrote:Here it is, My RTT/ GT list for the rest of the year. After dropping Celestine and shortening up the Seraphims I was able to put a full BC squad and Uriah back into the mix. I want to go against a Wraith list with this to see how it fairs but I think Im going to be good even against them. Repentia have been golden and people just can never get away from them. I think I have just about mastered moving with them and I have shifted them more into a disabling turn 2 or 3 strike squad vs the traditional run as fast as you can across the board Ideology. I have been practicing late midfield annihilation tactics making most of my hard hitting strikes to come turn 3 and 4 and 5 vs the earlier Rnds.
novatomato wrote:I am really seeing the benefit of having a repentia unit in the back field.
They are just perfect for babysitting those juicy Retributor squads as Spidey has demonstrated, and hanging out with a BSS sitting on a home objective.
It may not be hard to shift a ten girl squad, or even a twenty, but throw ten Repentia into the mix and the opponent has to decide between killing off the BSS then getting torn up by the Repentia or kill some Repentia and not be able to shift the BSS squad.
Dare I say it . . . . . are Repentia the key to making a Foot Sisters list?
Then again, I may be crazy and completely incorrect in my assumptions.
I think they are all but a must have, I could also see this as when you would put 3 squads of them in also. One on either flank of the big formations and one right behind your front like shooting troops. Which would be flanked by 2 DCA squads.
Jancoran wrote:they are an important tool. I feel the Battle Conclave is really the work horse and rightly feared. But the Repentia put the fear of the Emperor in ALL unit types, and that's a rare and usually expensive thing. IN Sisters of Battle you pay a reasonable price for an exceptionally reliable threat in melee. The rage rule hampers them but thats why he sets them in the back.
I think the Conclave is the real key. Repentias just give them the chance to be. Some will see them as the lesser of two evils. Lol.
I like the BC they have a great purpose but all and all I just dont see them as "threatening" 27 strength 6 PW attacks, that fleet. Attack even though they are dead. have 2D6 armor pen to me would be threatening. I wouldn't want to throw anything into that maw. Now times that by 2 or 3...
severedblue wrote:
Spidey0804 wrote:Here it is, My RTT/ GT list for the rest of the year. After dropping Celestine and shortening up the Seraphims I was able to put a full BC squad and Uriah back into the mix. I want to go against a Wraith list with this to see how it fairs but I think Im going to be good even against them. Repentia have been golden and people just can never get away from them. I think I have just about mastered moving with them and I have shifted them more into a disabling turn 2 or 3 strike squad vs the traditional run as fast as you can across the board Ideology. I have been practicing late midfield annihilation tactics making most of my hard hitting strikes to come turn 3 and 4 and 5 vs the earlier Rnds.
No Exorcist Launchers?
For 135pnts i get a minimum of 1 shot that can be taken out with... 1 shot. I now place up 5 people for 90 pointsish... get 12 shots and you usually have to shot me multiply times to get rid of me.(unless its say doom or something) This now allows me to deck out my vehicles turning all of them into mini fire bases that can put out 8 shots a piece plus have the ability to reach out and touch 3 things anywhere on the board. If the work great best 10 points I spent if they done well at least I got to shoot them. Still cost less then 135 pnt 1 shot minimum.
Dont get me wrong when they are on fire they pound stuff into the ground. I have taken out Land raiders, Paladins. MCs, Demon Princes and that's awesome. I just cant stand 1 shot getting threw and you have a 50 chance that it will be out of commission for the rest of the game. In RTTS and GTS I need to get the most out of every point I can.
Hollowman wrote:
Jancoran wrote:His repentia play defense for him in other words. they are dangerous and getting behind is lines isa fools gambit while they are there. On the other hand they fail to be target priorities a lot of the time because they are so far back that anything in front of them is not going to see them for quite some time.
In some missions where no outflanking nor infiltrating is possible for the enemy army he can play them aggressively. but even then, their rage makes them more useful as a "hold the line" type of thing rather than a "in your face" kind fo thing.
Well, rage isn't an issue in a transport, and using them as an in your face transported unit has it's advantages - Repentia are not begging for small arms fire as the only unit on foot, you can direct them towards a group of units and dump them where you can be sure of a good charge, possibly a multi charge, and are more likely to have nearby targets after your first combat.
That said, BSS are in desperate need of any help they can get, so keeping something nasty in the backfield might be worthwhile. Maybe I'll try it with my PE in games where I expect infiltrating/deep striking units. Much as I try to put some faith in my basic sisters to do something to defend themselves, they... Don't.
@ Jancoran = Exactly...
@ Hollowman... To me this is just a straight pain to do...first you have to box them in. Then you have to make sure they cant see anyone. Then you load them up. Then you drive them where the go. Then you hope you dont get Popped and loose some in the explosion... If I only have to deal with on cat coral Im happy, My PEs. I push them around the board where I want them to go my moving stuff to force/block them into moving a certain way. My Repentia have moved into more of a defensive mode that protects softer targets like my Rets or camping BSS mean while doms have pushed into midfeild turn 1 hit a bunch of stuff followed by 3 hunter killers that could pop stuff.
If I can de-mech my opponent in 2 turns and have no out-flankers or infiltrators to worry about then the Repentia are on the move towards the center to beat on anything they can get there hands on. BSS's then can slide in behind them to claim cleared OBJs or help with fire support on stuff that needs gunned down. This is a totally synergistic list that can function even with losses. If something gets by the Doms there is nothing but str 10, 6 and 4 power weapons staring at them as they pass over midfield. BSSs only enter the fray to pick up a vehicle that has some how gotten past midfield or to throw 8 shots at something that is out in the open. Volume of Fire coming from this back field is 24 mobile STR 4 3 mobile str 8 that can hit anywhere on the board. Or 3 mobile str 8 meltas... Along with 18 str 5 2 str 8 and 4 str 4 that can Rend. Something with in 24 inches of my center has the possibility of taking 49 shots in a single turn of shooting.
Will that happen? Probably not but I have seen crazier things happen.
Spidey0804 wrote:I like the BC they have a great purpose but all and all I just dont see them as "threatening" 27 strength 6 PW attacks, that fleet. Attack even though they are dead. have 2D6 armor pen to me would be threatening. I wouldn't want to throw anything into that maw. Now times that by 2 or 3...
How about 30 S4 PW attacks at I6 with rerolls, FNP and Invulnerable saves? That's a nasty mix (and only counts 6 DCA). It will kill almost anything other than a vehicle a lot faster and with less casualties than a walking Repentia squad. As for vehicles, I think I have that covered.
To me this is just a straight pain to do...first you have to box them in. Then you have to make sure they cant see anyone. Then you load them up. Then you drive them where the go. Then you hope you dont get Popped and loose some in the explosion...
Ugh. Rage doesn't work like that. Place Rhino in front of Repentia so that front repentia is about 4-6 inches from frontmost part of side hatch. Make sure that rhino is between Repentia and enemy force. Turn 1, Repentia move forward towards enemy at full speed (6"). They end up within 2" of hatch and embark. Yay! And losing some in the explosion is better than getting shot walking across the board. It also helps that they can no longer be kited.
pretre wrote:Ugh. Rage doesn't work like that. Place Rhino in front of Repentia so that front repentia is about 4-6 inches from frontmost part of side hatch. Make sure that rhino is between Repentia and enemy force. Turn 1, Repentia move forward towards enemy at full speed (6"). They end up within 2" of hatch and embark. Yay! And losing some in the explosion is better than getting shot walking across the board. It also helps that they can no longer be kited.
This makes me think of Repentia as having a very short attention span. The battle starts and they spot the enemy: "RAAAAGE!!" After running for a short distance: "Ooh! An Immolator!" They get in the Immo (imagine the scene where the Blues Brothers are in the elevator), the Immo gets popped: "RAAAAAGE!!".
Spidey0804 wrote:I like the BC they have a great purpose but all and all I just dont see them as "threatening" 27 strength 6 PW attacks, that fleet. Attack even though they are dead. have 2D6 armor pen to me would be threatening. I wouldn't want to throw anything into that maw. Now times that by 2 or 3...
How about 30 S4 PW attacks at I6 with rerolls, FNP and Invulnerable saves? That's a nasty mix (and only counts 6 DCA). It will kill almost anything other than a vehicle a lot faster and with less casualties than a walking Repentia squad. As for vehicles, I think I have that covered.
To me this is just a straight pain to do...first you have to box them in. Then you have to make sure they cant see anyone. Then you load them up. Then you drive them where the go. Then you hope you dont get Popped and loose some in the explosion...
Ugh. Rage doesn't work like that. Place Rhino in front of Repentia so that front repentia is about 4-6 inches from frontmost part of side hatch. Make sure that rhino is between Repentia and enemy force. Turn 1, Repentia move forward towards enemy at full speed (6"). They end up within 2" of hatch and embark. Yay! And losing some in the explosion is better than getting shot walking across the board. It also helps that they can no longer be kited.
LOL OK I will just keep mine milling around in the backfield you put yours in a Rhino...
As for the first comment I have that in my list also... plus 42 str 6, 8 str 8 and (4 to 32) str 10 attacks in my midfield. Stop looking at just one unit... those are all maxed out numbers...BTW
Hollowman... To me this is just a straight pain to do...first you have to box them in. Then you have to make sure they cant see anyone. Then you load them up. Then you drive them where the go. Then you hope you dont get Popped and loose some in the explosion... If I only have to deal with on cat coral Im happy, My PEs. I push them around the board where I want them to go my moving stuff to force/block them into moving a certain way. My Repentia have moved into more of a defensive mode that protects softer targets like my Rets or camping BSS mean while doms have pushed into midfeild turn 1 hit a bunch of stuff followed by 3 hunter killers that could pop stuff.
If I can de-mech my opponent in 2 turns and have no out-flankers or infiltrators to worry about then the Repentia are on the move towards the center to beat on anything they can get there hands on. BSS's then can slide in behind them to claim cleared OBJs or help with fire support on stuff that needs gunned down. This is a totally synergistic list that can function even with losses. If something gets by the Doms there is nothing but str 10, 6 and 4 power weapons staring at them as they pass over midfield. BSSs only enter the fray to pick up a vehicle that has some how gotten past midfield or to throw 8 shots at something that is out in the open. Volume of Fire coming from this back field is 24 mobile STR 4 3 mobile str 8 that can hit anywhere on the board. Or 3 mobile str 8 meltas... Along with 18 str 5 2 str 8 and 4 str 4 that can Rend. Something with in 24 inches of my center has the possibility of taking 49 shots in a single turn of shooting.
Well, I can certainly see your point. I maintain that Repentia, looked at on their own, are more effective transported into the midfield for the reasons I posted above. Its really not hard to get them into a vehicle - you can either set up So they run towards your transport, or block their los with their transport.
But I could see how it could be more effective for the *list* to have them in the backfield. As I said before, I just can't trust my BSS to do anything, and they die like chumps to anyone who gets past my wall of killer units. More importantly, I cannot trust a conclave to do anything either - I have been using Uriah to protect my backfield, but without fleet or any anti-tank ability the enemy has had an easier time than I would like getting past him. You'd think all that melta would de-mech an attacker pretty quick, but it doesn't always work out that way. Repentia can protect a wider area, AND they don't worry about land raiders, or walkers, or rhino, or assaulting into terrain ( oh no, I have to go last!) or any of the things that Uriah just can't deal with. All too often Uriah ends up killing the threat AFTER it has already slaughtered one of my basic Sisters units with one round of combat and an initiative test.
Still, even as a backfield unit, I'd rather have them in a transport than walking. Maybe that's because my roommate plays IG, and I have seen many a walking unit evaporate under pie plates.
pretre wrote:Ugh. Rage doesn't work like that. Place Rhino in front of Repentia so that front repentia is about 4-6 inches from frontmost part of side hatch. Make sure that rhino is between Repentia and enemy force. Turn 1, Repentia move forward towards enemy at full speed (6"). They end up within 2" of hatch and embark. Yay! And losing some in the explosion is better than getting shot walking across the board. It also helps that they can no longer be kited.
This makes me think of Repentia as having a very short attention span. The battle starts and they spot the enemy: "RAAAAGE!!" After running for a short distance: "Ooh! An Immolator!" They get in the Immo (imagine the scene where the Blues Brothers are in the elevator), the Immo gets popped: "RAAAAAGE!!".
Why is it in the WD Battle Report the Dominion squad has 4 special weapons but only 5 members of the squad? Pg 96 and Pg 100... ??? Is there a misprint in the book or should it be the way it is?
Spidey0804 wrote:Why is it in the WD Battle Report the Dominion squad has 4 special weapons but only 5 members of the squad? Pg 96 and Pg 100... ??? Is there a misprint in the book or should it be the way it is?
There are often problems with WD Battle Reports because they BRs are done months before the book is published and commonly use previous versions of the codex that had different rulesets. (Assuming you're talking about the BR that came with the SOB Codex.)
Spidey0804 wrote:Why is it in the WD Battle Report the Dominion squad has 4 special weapons but only 5 members of the squad? Pg 96 and Pg 100... ??? Is there a misprint in the book or should it be the way it is?
I think they are probably referring to the fact that the flamers fire twice each.
Spidey0804 wrote:Why is it in the WD Battle Report the Dominion squad has 4 special weapons but only 5 members of the squad? Pg 96 and Pg 100... ??? Is there a misprint in the book or should it be the way it is?
I think they are probably referring to the fact that the flamers fire twice each.
No, IIRC (my WDs are at home) the list actually has 4 specials in the 5 man squad. Which is how it used to work in C:WH and probably in early versions of the new book until they updated it to the X specials per X guys thing that 5th edition does.
Hollowman wrote:
But I could see how it could be more effective for the *list* to have them in the backfield.
...importantly, I cannot trust a conclave to do anything either - I have been using Uriah to protect my backfield, but without fleet or any anti-tank ability the enemy has had an easier time than I would like
Well Hollowman, it's ALL about tactics in my book. Lists are meant to form nicely around the hand that wields them, like a glove.
As for Anti-tank in a conclave, i include 4 Arco-Flaggelents, so I am usually fine against tanks rear armor. Do you not use them? 20 STR 5 attacks is good against any target but it especially helps the Conclave against armor. i added them and never looked back. that unit is a danger to anything it touches. 4 Assassins, 4 Arco's and 2 Crusaders for the win!
Jancoran wrote:As for Anti-tank in a conclave, i include 4 Arco-Flaggelents, so I am usually fine against tanks rear armor. Do you not use them? 20 STR 5 attacks is good against any target but it especially helps the Conclave against armor. i added them and never looked back. that unit is a danger to anything it touches. 4 Assassins, 4 Arco's and 2 Crusaders for the win!
I'm not really feeling this. Unless it didn't move you're only typically going to get a couple of glances, maybe a pen if you're lucky, out of 20 attacks (10 hits = 3ish 5+, and 4 hits = 1ish 5+). On top of that, you're still boned against walkers. I'm of the opinion that Conclaves have no business trying to take out vehicles. If you're desperate and you don't have anything else you can use them for, sure, but I'd never expect my conclave to do anything against armor.
Jancoran wrote:
Well Hollowman, it's ALL about tactics in my book. Lists are meant to form nicely around the hand that wields them, like a glove.
As for Anti-tank in a conclave, i include 4 Arco-Flaggelents, so I am usually fine against tanks rear armor. Do you not use them? 20 STR 5 attacks is good against any target but it especially helps the Conclave against armor. i added them and never looked back. that unit is a danger to anything it touches. 4 Assassins, 4 Arco's and 2 Crusaders for the win!
Agreed on list building, but I'm still working on my list. When I took out one unit of PE (out of three) and added an exorcist it more or less worked - av13 in cover draws a lot of fire that used to go into PE, and makes everything more survivable. But it also made a hole in my front lines, and more stuff is getting through, which hurts my BSS. I use arco's at 2500, and I'm considering replacing my current cultist bomb with them - they just don't mesh well with Uriah. I considered Kyrinov, but making BSS fearless seems to hurt them more than help, since they already come close to getting wiped out first turn of assault to most things. My two Repentia are really the workhorse of my list, so I am hesitant to leave one in the backfield - but I have considered replacing my conclave with a third repentia unit, and using Celestine as my HQ. Or I could leave one of my current PE units in the backfield, but then even more will get through my lines.
What I really need is time to play test the different options if the arco's work, they would be the option that takes the least away from my list elsewhere. Otherwise Celestine and more Repentia might be the next trick.
If I could just get repentia a ride without having to steal it, I'd be fine right now!
well the Arcos are one reason why i dont use Uriah. He's cool. let no one say I ever said otherwise. But like you say, with Crusaders and Arcos in the unit, he's not AS helpful as he would be. thats why i use Kyrinov. Fearless bubbles are cool, like bow ties. if you skip the Canoness you can have both, but as you may find (not to start another big hooplah) the Sororitas Command Squad is quite cool and hard to say no to after you use that unit a few times.
Jancoran wrote:actually its roughly 2 glances and 2 pens.
Not sure where you're getting this.
Jancoran wrote:Not even Devastators do it better actually.
That's very subjective statement. What are the Devs shooting at? AV10? What kind of weapons do they have? Missiles? Lascannon? Plasma?
Against AV10, 4 MLDevs will typically get about 2 pens (1.88...8 is expected)
Against an immobile vehicle your Conclave will obviously be better. 20 hits = 6 or 7 glances and pens. (Note this is still only one extra pen.)
Against a combat speed vehicle it's slightly worse. 10 hits = 3 glances and pens.
Against a cruising speed vehicle it's much worse. 3 hits = 1 glance or pen.
Personally, I think this is all a bit moot. If it's a vehicle and your women can't shoot it dead, something is very wrong.
That a unit of Arco's glances on 5's, Pens on 6's and because of their sheer number of opps (when they are asked to do it at ALL) they do more damage than a Devastator squad does. Even better when the vehicle doesn't move or got immobilized!
They get 1.67 Glances and 1.67 Pens on a vehicle moving at combat speed. So basically, two each since theres no such thing as .67 pips on a die.
And yes, against a vehicle moving fast, they do less. That sort of goes without saying. But what IS worth pointing out is that a conclave without them....doesn't do jack to a vehicle! Am I wrong?
And since the original comment was ABOUT not being able to stop vehicles with a conclave... The arcos were the answer and a relevant answer at that.
OK? Don't get hung up on the unimportant commentary. Point is, adding Arco's has made a huge difference for me, in multiple ways. If it isn't necessary to you, don't do it. I won't be hurt. Lol.
Amerikon wrote:
Personally, I think this is all a bit moot. If it's a vehicle and your women can't shoot it dead, something is very wrong.
Well yes something is wrong, but you should expect that. Immo are fragile and have one weapon, Dominions are too reliant on the Immo, exorcists can just whiff and again have just one big weapon - things go wrong. If it comes down to BSS, their one MM shot is just a chance and a prayer - even against AV11 without cover they have a what, 33% chance to pen? Unless the vehicle is within 12", in which case it is already too late to save your BSS.
Sometimes a bad first round takes out too much of my AT, or there are just too many vehicles and too few good rolls, or a scout comes in on the wrong side, or a landraider just takes everything I throw at it. Since I tend to drive aggressively into the enemies deployment zone, sometimes something I expected to kill get's past, and then it's 3 BSS's whiffing a shot a round until suddenly they are eating chainswords.
Jancoran wrote:They get 1.67 Glances and 1.67 Pens on a vehicle moving at combat speed. So basically, two each since theres no such thing as .67 pips on a die.
I don't think this is fair, because you're rounding up an entire 2/3 of a damage result which overstates their case. That's why I left it at ~3 glances and pens. In the average case against a vehicle you'll get either 2 glances and 1 pen (worse than devs) or 2 pens and 1 glance (almost the same as devs).
Jancoran wrote:And yes, against a vehicle moving fast, they do less. That sort of goes without saying.
Ok, but it's relevant to a discussion of the anti-tank abilities of arcos. You can't just sweep it under the rug. This is especially true when we're talking about a unit to defend your DZ (which I think we were). The only time a tank is going to be moving under 6" is if it needs to shoot something. Usually those aren't the same units that get into your DZ. So the types of targets you can expect a Conclave to face if they're being tasked with defending the backfield are going to be transports and fast moving vehicles (usually skimmers). That means that most of the time you'll be hitting on 6s.
Jancoran wrote:But what IS worth pointing out is that a conclave without them....doesn't do jack to a vehicle! Am I wrong?
And since the original comment was ABOUT not being able to stop vehicles with a conclave... The arcos were the answer and a relevant answer at that.
Of course, you're not wrong, and I'll agree that arcos are the best option a Conclave has for anti-tank, but that wasn't my point. My point is that their best option is still a poor option which means, it's not necessarily a good idea to compromise your Conclave for a slight bump in anti-tank. The Conclave is necessarily an anti-infantry unit. If there's a transport in your DZ, you want to shoot it, not charge it with your Conclave. Their job is to kill what's inside the tank.
Jancoran wrote:OK? Don't get hung up on the unimportant commentary. Point is, adding Arco's has made a huge difference for me, in multiple ways. If it isn't necessary to you, don't do it. I won't be hurt. Lol.
I didn't post this to try and change your list. I was just providing an opposing viewpoint, which is really the point of this thread.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hollowman wrote:
Amerikon wrote:
Personally, I think this is all a bit moot. If it's a vehicle and your women can't shoot it dead, something is very wrong.
Well yes something is wrong, but you should expect that. Immo are fragile and have one weapon, Dominions are too reliant on the Immo, exorcists can just whiff and again have just one big weapon - things go wrong. If it comes down to BSS, their one MM shot is just a chance and a prayer - even against AV11 without cover they have a what, 33% chance to pen? Unless the vehicle is within 12", in which case it is already too late to save your BSS.
If your Immos are popped, your Dominions are dead, your Exorcists have whiffed, and your BSS meltas are ineffective, you're flat out boned. Nothing will save you if your entire army has been rendered ineffective.
Amerikon wrote:
Personally, I think this is all a bit moot. If it's a vehicle and your women can't shoot it dead, something is very wrong.
Well yes something is wrong, but you should expect that. Immo are fragile and have one weapon, Dominions are too reliant on the Immo, exorcists can just whiff and again have just one big weapon - things go wrong. If it comes down to BSS, their one MM shot is just a chance and a prayer - even against AV11 without cover they have a what, 33% chance to pen? Unless the vehicle is within 12", in which case it is already too late to save your BSS.
If your Immos are popped, your Dominions are dead, your Exorcists have whiffed, and your BSS meltas are ineffective, you're flat out boned. Nothing will save you if your entire army has been rendered ineffective.
I found this hilarious but true. If everything else in your army is ineffective, one unit isn't going to save it.
Amerikon, 1.67 = rounded to 2. thats not unfair. It's also rounding 1/3 not 2/3. They are separate result types with separate frequency. So you round them separately.
Point is, if you refuse to put them in your conclave, your conclaves capabilities are diminished. And that does not seem like a good thing to me. Also, anti-tank is also not the ONLY reason to take them, as aforementioned. they are valuable shields against shooting and reduce the chance in melee of blowing a unit up so badly that it ends in the open.
As for the DZ, the enemy may or may not need to move 12". We can't sit here and argue that because we dont know if that takes them too far past past objectives and whatnot. What I am saying is true: you will average 2 pens and 2 glances more often than you will not, if the target went cruising speed AND...you...will not...be able to affect them at ALL if you lack the Arco's.
Incidentally, even if it moves at 12" speed, I'm still causing .55 Glances and .55 pens.
If the rest of the force failed, the arco's are having to do this. In that case, you have a choice here Amerikon: be unable to do anything OR be able to do SOMEthing about it. Which one you choose could cost you the game, I'd say.
...and i already knew that you did not plan to change my list by what you said. I was telling you that you need not change yours Lol.
Don't treat Conclaves as "anti-terminator" exchange unit. They are good for at least 2 KP and possibly 3 every game and hordes will positively hate your guts. 20 STR 5 atatcks against Orks or tyranids, eldar or IG on its OWN would be a noughty thing to enjoy, but against Bike armies, Nurgle forces, and other tougher units, it really shines too. There are so many places where high STR attacks are worth it.
Jancoran wrote:Point is, if you refuse to put them in your conclave, your conclaves capabilities are diminished.
Not diminished, changed. Adding them makes you less likely to be able to take down good armor save close combat opponents.
If the rest of the force failed, the arco's are having to do this. In that case, you have a choice here Amerikon: be unable to do anything OR be able to do SOMEthing about it. Which one you choose could cost you the game, I'd say.
If the rest of your force can't do something about one vehicle with rear armor 10, you probably have more problems than the makeup of your conclave.
Don't treat Conclaves as "anti-terminator" exchange unit. They are good for at least 2 KP and possibly 3 every game and hordes will positively hate your guts. 20 STR 5 atatcks against Orks or tyranids, eldar or IG on its OWN would be a noughty thing to enjoy, but against Bike armies, Nurgle forces, and other tougher units, it really shines too. There are so many places where high STR attacks are worth it.
edit: Math was off, but DCA are better against all T5 3+, Orks and most other targets due to WS5 and PW. See below for the right math.
Jancoran wrote:Amerikon, 1.67 = rounded to 2. thats not unfair. It's also rounding 1/3 not 2/3. They are separate result types with separate frequency. So you round them separately.
It's 2/3 because you're doing it twice. You're essentially rounding 3 up to 4 (or at least 3 1/3 to 4). If you can't see that my description is closer to reality, I don't know what else to say.
Jancoran wrote:Point is, if you refuse to put them in your conclave, your conclaves capabilities are diminished. And that does not seem like a good thing to me. Also, anti-tank is also not the ONLY reason to take them, as aforementioned. they are valuable shields against shooting and reduce the chance in melee of blowing a unit up so badly that it ends in the open.
Crusaders are better at soaking fire in every circumstance and also keep your melee results low (if that's what you want). S5 is the main benefit Arcos and when you factor in the fact that DCAs have power weapons, you're likely to end up with more unsaved wound from assassins. So really the only thing Arcos do better is anti-horde and anti-tank. Anti-horde isn't something that Conclaves struggle at to begin with and I'll maintain that they're not good enough at anti-tank to bother with it.
Jancoran wrote:As for the DZ, the enemy may or may not need to move 12". We can't sit here and argue that because we dont know if that takes them too far past past objectives and whatnot.
You don't have to move 12", you only have to move 6.00000001", which is not difficult to do. If moving 6+" is too far to move for your cargo, then there's no reason you can't drop them off and then move. Any commander that doesn't keep his transports moving when CC units are around is just giving away free KPs.
Jancoran wrote:Don't treat Conclaves as "anti-terminator" exchange unit. They are good for at least 2 KP and possibly 3 every game and hordes will positively hate your guts. 20 STR 5 atatcks against Orks or tyranids, eldar or IG on its OWN would be a noughty thing to enjoy, but against Bike armies, Nurgle forces, and other tougher units, it really shines too. There are so many places where high STR attacks are worth it.
Never said they were an "exchange unit", just that they were an anti-infantry unit. A DCA Conclave will shred Orks, Tyranids, Eldar, IG and be more effective than Arcos vs Bikes, Nurgle, MC (assuming a 4+ or better save). Not to mention that Assassins strike first against almost everything while Arcos are only striking before Orks and Necrons.
The problem with calculating expected values is is that you really are not causing 0.55 glances/pens per assault - that average is VERY deceptive.
This is just considering a Rhino Chassis.
Each attack has about a 5.5% chance to cause a damage results. (1/6 hit, 1/3 glance/pen). How many attacks do I need to guarantee a 50% chance to get at least one result?
To find that I solve the problem (1 - 0.055)^n = (1- 0.50) which comes to:
n = ln(0.50)/ln(1-0.055) n = 12.12 or 13 for an integer solution
Okay not too bad, but we all know 50% success is pretty bad. How about to get to 66% confidence since we all know 3+ results are good, same formula but with (1 - 0.66)? n = 19.22 or 20 attacks.
Still not great and all we achieved is a 66% confidence to achieve a single damage result. From this I do not think I can expect to get 1 glance and 1 pen. (note: a 90% chance requires 40 attacks).
Since we compared missile launchers to these, how many missiles does it take to guarantee a similar result?
The chance to get a damage result with a Missile is 44% (2/3 hit, 2/3 pen). Using the same formula as above, the number of shots required to achieve a results x% of the time are...
50% - 1.179 so 2 75% - 1.86 so 2 90% - 3.9 so 4
This reinforces what we already know: Missile launchers rock at putting damage on vehicles with high reliability.
Melee with S5 attacks on cruising speed vehicles are unreliable unless you can put out a lot of attacks. If you can put out 40 attacks at S5 you have a 90% chance to generate at least one result.
pretre wrote:So against Orks, Arcos are better. (Forgive any napkin math mistakes.)
The only thing I'd say here is that you're running 5 DCAs vs 4 Arcos. Even if you run 4 v 4 and use 16 Attacks for the Assassins, they still come out better against all T5 with an armor save and all T6 with a save of 4+ or better. It's something like 3.5w vs T5 and 2w vs T6.
Pretre maybe I am wrong here (would not be the first time) but against Orks...
DCA - Hit on a 3+, wound on a 4+ - 1 wound per 3 attacks
Arco - Hit on a 4+, wound on a 3+ (1/6 saved) - 1 wound per 3.6 attacks
I do not recall the difference in attacks between them in number of attacks though I think you compared an even number of 20 and 20. When I just checked the numbers it looks liek arcos should be 5.55 wounds (20 * 0.5 *0.667 * 5/6)
Amerikon wrote: If your Immos are popped, your Dominions are dead, your Exorcists have whiffed, and your BSS meltas are ineffective, you're flat out boned. Nothing will save you if your entire army has been rendered ineffective.
Are you playing games where your Immo are not popped and your BSS'S are effective? Immo/dominion units are alpha strikers, they jump forward kill something, maybe two something's, and then proceed to get blown up. BSS... Well, I tried relying on my BSS to do something, and it turned out to be a bad idea. The exorcist is the only thing I'd expect to be of any use by the time an enemy is moving into my backfield, and its nice but not important to my game.
My army consists mainly of Repentia and PE. Normally, nothing makes it past their dominance of the midfield, but one disadvantage of rage is that sometimes your screen bunches or moves unreliably, and a vehicle manages to get through. At that point it is the job of my MMBSS's and conclave to kill the threat. In theory, the 3 MM should, between them, pop the transport so my conclave can assault (2 MM if my meched up BSS is out contesting an objective). In practice, the backfield units are not doing their job. Vehicles get too close, and one of my troops gets swept off an objective, THEN the conclave kills the assaulters. Not ideal. The exorcist is the wildcard - it is fairly reliable if it is working, but it's lost it's weapon as often as not by this point.
kryczek wrote:Sorry to jump in to maths class but?
Maths. You British folk crack me up!
kryczek wrote:IA 2nd edition, Arvus lighters?
3 for 1 FA slot, AV10, fast skimmer, T/L autocannon, 100 pts.
Does anyone think this is maybe worth a punt?
Is it 100pts per or 100 for all 3?
My biggest gripe against it would be that it takes a highly coveted FA slot. But, I think if you wanted to really go outside the box and spam CC units you could make a pretty slick list with it. (Again, assuming it's not 100pts for 1).
I might rather like it for Dominion squads. Maybe take 2 full strength Dom squads and use the 3rd Arvus for your Conclave. I think it could have a lot of uses. AV10 is a little scary though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hollowman wrote:
Amerikon wrote: If your Immos are popped, your Dominions are dead, your Exorcists have whiffed, and your BSS meltas are ineffective, you're flat out boned. Nothing will save you if your entire army has been rendered ineffective.
Are you playing games where your Immo are not popped and your BSS'S are effective? Immo/dominion units are alpha strikers, they jump forward kill something, maybe two something's, and then proceed to get blown up. BSS... Well, I tried relying on my BSS to do something, and it turned out to be a bad idea. The exorcist is the only thing I'd expect to be of any use by the time an enemy is moving into my backfield, and its nice but not important to my game.
I was slightly joking when I said that, but you basically listed all the elements of a Sisters army and said that none of it was working. The only other unit I'd have on the board would be Seraphim. I know you run PEs and Repentia but when I read it, it was more like "Well if absolutely nothing in your army can kill anything...".
Hollowman wrote:My army consists mainly of Repentia and PE. Normally, nothing makes it past their dominance of the midfield, but one disadvantage of rage is that sometimes your screen bunches or moves unreliably, and a vehicle manages to get through. At that point it is the job of my MMBSS's and conclave to kill the threat. In theory, the 3 MM should, between them, pop the transport so my conclave can assault (2 MM if my meched up BSS is out contesting an objective). In practice, the backfield units are not doing their job. Vehicles get too close, and one of my troops gets swept off an objective, THEN the conclave kills the assaulters. Not ideal. The exorcist is the wildcard - it is fairly reliable if it is working, but it's lost it's weapon as often as not by this point.
I'd just say, that's a problem that Sisters have. If all of your shooting fails you, your units are going to rolled by CC units. Even if your Conclave charged and popped the tank, the unit inside still gets to do as it pleases on the next turn so you haven't really fixed the problem.
So if you can't shoot anything down and then a CC unit rolls one of your troops and then your Conclave rolls that unit. You should be stoked that you only lost one unit and your conclave was there to stop your entire backfield from being shredded.
A side note: I'm less than convinced on the utility of the MM in a BSS squad. I do run them sometimes, but I often find myself cursing the MM as often as I'm using it for 24" shots. Anyway... I like to tool my BSS units so that they can make 2 melta shots at least once per game. So I'd go either Melta/Flamer/Combi-Melta or Melta/Melta/Combi-Flamer. If you do that you're usually going to be able to count on them in a clutch situation, especially if you've got some faith points lying around and get pull off their "re-roll 1s" Act. It's not always going to work, but it gives you a fighting chance.
I wasnt convinced myself it was my mate who suggested them as i had a few flyer/skimmer type models i could have converted. It was losing the FA slot that got me.
I was actually considering running 3 big CC units in them though, 2x enclaves, 1x repentia.
Lol. this was about vehicle killing and the Conclave inability to do it.
I already know that DCA kill better. Duh. Thats one of their downsides, like I keep saying. And str 5 is key against so many targets.
No problem. Just saying, if your concern is vehicles and the fact that Conclave can do nothing about it, well... theres a solution. I didn't even calculate in the re-rolls they might get for a priest either. So...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Amerikon wrote:
A side note: I'm less than convinced on the utility of the MM in a BSS squad. I do run them sometimes, but I often find myself cursing the MM as often as I'm using it for 24" shots. .
I think you should just shoot the sisters for a round or two, then get back in the Rhino. You'll probably do more overall than the singular Multimelta will in the grand scheme. naturally every opponent is different but i notice how often people START in a rhino to avoid taking ANY casualties but really, as long as there's one left at the end and it's on an objective somewhere, meh. Better production than sitting in and taking a single potshot here and there are 24" range, which aint much when you're trying to stay way back for a while. Plus as an added target it takes pressure off the units that are really performing well. One or two less units firing on, say, conclave or on Dominion can only be a good thing.
in fact you might even reserve the rhinos and make them NOT targets and then just jump in them when "later" comes and they show up. Some risk involved there obviously but again reduces the opportunities for cheap KP's, Sisters of Battle end up protected for a longer period in the game and you can still do the objectives thing.
I wasnt convinced myself it was my mate who suggested them as i had a few flyer/skimmer type models i could have converted. It was losing the FA slot that got me.
I was actually considering running 3 big CC units in them though, 2x enclaves, 1x repentia.
Cheers.
Seems like they would work fine, it's just always a gamble to find folks who like Forge World rules. Even if they are fine with them at first, they seem to suddenly find they are no longer to their taste if you win An autocannon bearing transport skimmer seems a bit out of place among the SoB, but it could certainly have it's uses.
The only thing I will ever buy from forge word are Repressors and that's if they make it into a real dex. I'm not wasting the money on models that I can put on my shelf and never use.
Yeah, I am tempted to throw one in sometime, just for the giggles. The problem is, of course, that one of the key things it is good at (Scaring dreadnoughts) doesn't work because he is an IC.
pretre wrote:Yeah, I am tempted to throw one in sometime, just for the giggles. The problem is, of course, that one of the key things it is good at (Scaring dreadnoughts) doesn't work because he is an IC.
Sooo... a thought occured to me...... I don't have my codex at work... but can 4 priests with evisorators join a 20 woman strong BSS? thats pretty scarey if you ask me.... just a thought
You can take up to 5 priests and put them wherever you want, because they are ICs.
4 with Eviscerators is 280 points though. You somewhat mitigate the IC problem since you're guaranteeing one of them will still swing against a dread, but you're spending WAY too much to do it.
It does make them kinda like another crazy hammer unit though. Im not saying do it but... Could be fun to go all kinds of crazy with priests. I ran a super priest army once in WH codex. it was "ok". very RPS. But fun.
pretre wrote:You can take up to 5 priests and put them wherever you want, because they are ICs.
4 with Eviscerators is 280 points though. You somewhat mitigate the IC problem since you're guaranteeing one of them will still swing against a dread, but you're spending WAY too much to do it.
Lets be honest... dreads aren't scarey... you have melta guns EVERYWHERE check this 2k list out....
St Celestine 115
Uriah 90
4 Priests with evisorators 280
Battle conclave, 6 DCA, 3 Crusaders, rhino with Dozers 160
10 BSS with 2 melta, rhino with dozers 185
10 BSS with 2 melta, rhino with dozers 185
10 BSS with 2 melta, rhino with no dozer blades (had to for the pts) 180
20 BSS, 2 meltas 265
5 Dominions with 2 Meltas, combi melta, immolator with MM and Dozer 185
5 Dominions with 2 Meltas, combi melta, immolator with MM and Dozer 185
5 retributors with HBs 85
5 retributors with HBs 85
Priests do with the blob squad, they go in the SECOND row... basically so when you consolidate if assaulted you go into models that can't hurt you, and if you charge, you get into it with models of your choice... Lets be honest... we're good players here...
Uriah has a choice, he can go with the DCA... or with the blob if you like.... and switch a priest into the DCA... not a bad switch here
The only thing i don't like is the loss of exorcists.... I may test this out later...
Sure the priests are expensive... but they are an evisorator, 4+ invul, and chaplain rolled into one
Yeah. I definitely am tempted by them. I would probably take them all the time if I could take 8 or 9 girl SoB squads or we had a 12 transport. It would be a great insurance policy for normal sisters. Kinda like spendy wolf guard.
If they had been thinking, they would have made then exactly like Royal Court or Wolf Guard, but oh well.
In my Celestian and Canoness mob I have been quite tempted to through a priest in there. Changes it from being a decent enough assault unit to being pretty frightening on the turn it charges.
Though trying to switch something out for that priest really begins to squeeze the points and it is already a fairly expensive unit.
novatomato wrote:In my Celestian and Canoness mob I have been quite tempted to through a priest in there. Changes it from being a decent enough assault unit to being pretty frightening on the turn it charges.
Though trying to switch something out for that priest really begins to squeeze the points and it is already a fairly expensive unit.
the better quesiton is... does the celestian faith rule allow our evisorators to be str 8 like hammer hand shenanigans?
novatomato wrote:In my Celestian and Canoness mob I have been quite tempted to through a priest in there. Changes it from being a decent enough assault unit to being pretty frightening on the turn it charges.
Though trying to switch something out for that priest really begins to squeeze the points and it is already a fairly expensive unit.
the better quesiton is... does the celestian faith rule allow our evisorators to be str 8 like hammer hand shenanigans?
I would err on the side of it being str 7 ((3x2)+1) unless someone can show that it is quite clearly str 8 ((3+1)x2). If it were str 8 that would be pretty nifty.
I was messing with this Concept when I put up the Deathstar list. I was using Celestians, Jacobus ,Canoness. If you wanted to get stupid you could put Celestine and Jacob in the squad with 5 priest and a 20 man sister squad. I would kite out the VBS with power weapon also. Drop in 2 melta guns and call it a day.
You could also purchase a Immolator with TLMM to drop midfield on a DOW scenario to give them fire support.
Ok so you put jacobus in, then put the priests in the Immolator,run it across the field hop out and join the squad. Celestine would be getting there exactly the same time.
I used them (seraphim) in a Kill Team tournament and they were very good for that. They are cheap and mobile with a good mix of shooting/assault.
I was at the top until the last round when I hit a GK player w/ strikes (I beat one running Paladins). The judge ruled he needed 1 psychic test to get hammerhand on all his guys while I had to test individually for Faith for each model. But for that ruling, I might have had a chance but S5 Stormbolters were too much.
STR 5 Storm Bolters are silly good. not worth it unless you go 10 man squads but WORTH IT when you do!
The main Grey Knight player at our store other than myself uses those on every unit and it is just a withering amount of high STR fire to take. As Russians were fond of saying, Quantity has a quality all its own.
Basically they just pound on things until they get a little unlucky with the dice and POOF. luck happens. it happens more often when 100 STR 5 storm bolters are involved. =)
but then, i got a little something for those Storm Bolter lovers. it's called MELTA LOVIN'. Zot zot zot zot zot zot zot. next! Zot zot zot zot zot zot....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pretre wrote:Individual faith? Argh. Stupid KT.
Really? Wait...was it because they were separate chix? but then that would apply to GK's too... so confused...
pretre wrote:They've been pretty mediocre since the C: Chapter Approved book. Poor Seraphim, I do love them.
I seriously <3 Seras. I think the only reason they're derided in the new list is because they're not Dominions. Admittedly it's a pretty solid argument, but I think they flying nuns are still pretty good.
And in C:CA they were awesome. When The Passion gave +2 Init, +1A, you could just brutalize almost any infantry unit. Shoot them then charge with Passion + Spirit of the Martyr, Hit and Run, Rinse, Repeat. Remember that back then, faith checks were Ld-based not based on squad size so it was really easy to pull it off.
Oh, I remember. I remember well. You could also take 30 man redemptionist meat shields.
IIRC, I used to run:
2 30 man Red Squads with 4 or 5 Eviscerators Zealots and Exterminators
2 8 Girl Seraphim squads with HF and Axe of Retribution
2 Exorcists
A couple walking girl squads, Canoness and maybe some celestians with Immos
The first three lines are the important parts, they did all the heavy lifting. Ahh, those were the days.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The passion was ridiculous on a 30 man squad with Eviscerators. If one of those made it across the board alive, I won the game.
Well I have never gotten to see the original Sisters of Battle rules (sadly) and so i do not know what I have missed. I got the 3E codex and it was my first exposure to the lovely ladies of his Lordship.
One thing i really kind of wonder at is how the Sisters of Battle have nothing to do whatsoever with Psykers anymore. I mean this was central to the darn Witch Hunters codex and was an ability only Sisters of Battle got in the WH codex so it wasnt an army specific rule, it was for the Sororitas specifically. So much of their lore is that way since 3E and all of a sudden...not even a Psychic hood? I've never heard much talk about it. Its wierd how everyone just seems to accept that. I know 2E Sisters were not, I'm told, anti-Psyker, but crap, that was over a decade ago or something. why turn a 180 now? That does bug me.
2E - No anti-psyker rules that I remember.
3E Black book - No anti-psyker rules that I remember.
3E Codex: Chapter Approved - No anti-psyker rules that I remember.
3E C:WH - Anti-psyker rules, probably because they got added into the whole Witch Hunters thing.
pretre wrote:2E - No anti-psyker rules that I remember.
3E Black book - No anti-psyker rules that I remember.
3E Codex: Chapter Approved - No anti-psyker rules that I remember.
3E C:WH - Anti-psyker rules, probably because they got added into the whole Witch Hunters thing.
Correct. In 2E only psykers had anti-psyker abilities and the Sisters were primarily meant to be an allied force. So in that case you'd have either a Librarian, Inquisitor, or Adeptus Psyker with you. If you didn't you'd just have to hope you pulled a nullify card (or whatever it was called) from the warp deck. Otherwise the other guy's Psyker Lord would drop all sorts of nastiness on you.
In 3E it just didn't matter because no one used psykers anyway. We only notice it now because psychics are much more important/common in the newer armies than they used to be. So the utter lack of psychic defense is really a bummer.
I think pretre's point was that the Witch Hunters book is the anomaly for having anti-psyker rules in it, since that was a new addition to the Sisters' fluff.
My point was that it was ironic that we had anti-psyker abilities when no one was using psykers. Now that psykers are much more of a big deal, GW takes them away.
No kidding. It sucks. I LOVED that part of the Sisters of Battle. Gave them a role, an identity that went beyond just "the church". It gave them a reason to be a MILITANT church. Now we're back to doing...what? Guarding funeral Processions? Storming illegal wedding procedings? I dunno. That kind of is...the lame part of things.
I really dont mind it that much... Makes the game easier for me lol. They say what there are going to do and I say OK.
But look at it like this our whole freaking army has an invul save.
The only other army like that is Demons we are an anomaly in its self.
Speaking of that...
What do you think about the Combi weapon stake gun that causes a perils test? Would you ever take it? I was thinking of some reason why I would add it or even it I should ever try it. I think the problem with it is it AP - why couldn't this weapon be AP 2 or 3? I would have to fire 6 of them to get a would off on a AP 2 . For 60 Pnts I could have almost have another Retributor Squad.
I just dont think this one was thought out very well. Has anyone even attempted to use it?
Not to get wishlisting or anything, but it would cool if celestians all came with those as combis default. Wouldn't be OP, but would certainly surprise the crud out of some units.
Close, it didn't allow armor saves. (So was good vs Nids, GK and Mephy)
Combi-weapon: Bolter-stake crossbow
This fires a blessed silver stake that
immolates its target in a burst of holy fire.
The stake-crossbow is an Assault 2
weapon with a range of 24". Any psyker
hit will be wounded on a 2+ and receives
no Armour save (though Invulnerable
saves may be taken as normal). On any
other target, the weapon counts as
Strength 3, AP5.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So the Perils thing is better, but the no AP thing is worse.
What is your guys counter to servo skulls? I have a player in the local meta that doesn't leave home without them. He usually deploys them to deny my scout moves. How can I combat this or negate the effect of the tactic on my list?
Automatically Appended Next Post: My list consists of this
Also, servo skulls are placed pre-deployment and it says that opponents cannot use their scout move to approach to within 12" of one. It doesn't say that if they are already within 12", they can't move past it. So he needs to be really careful about placement and you get to counter it with deployment.
The latest version of the list that he is running a Drago wing 3 dreads. Tech-marine, Librarian and interceptor squad it think. Though I have seen him run DCA Razor spam with storm chickens also. Thing is the Servo Skulls are always in his lists.
You're really going to miss the lack of exorcists against draigowing. If he's pushing you back, it just delays the inevitable, you can still get smoke on your doms and push forward.
Fighting Draigo wing is all about causing as many saves as possible for as long as possible. they are no joke, they take up a lot of space and their only weakness is they can be instakilled and they DO take up a lot of space, so their ability to meneuver can sometimes slow them a bit. Still all in all, anyone who tells you to patiently plink away at them is right. Engaging them in melee is suicide as a rule, though sometimes it is a good suicide it if pulls them off something important or delays them.
I respect Draigo Wing a little bit. It's got DEFINITE limitations but it's an army that can outlast you in annoying fashion.
The problem with Draigowing versus (at least my) sisters is that we have more meltas than they have models. And DCA will eat up a paladin unit for breakfast.
Sure, if you are so lucky. Otherwise, kite them with your mech'd units and melta them. If he's silly enough to let both your Repentia and DCA get to him at the same time, he deserves what he gets.
they get to where they can reach objectives, then sit, fire fire fire, and charge. Pretty much. Meanwhile a couple minion squads keep the enemy honest by harassing the flanks and such. so yeah.
But Draigo can swarm and multicharge SOB's pretty good. So while they might normally shoot at their enemies, a Draigo army, once it pops the Conclave, would very likely press the advantage. That is really the only doorstop for them to fear. Repentias cant instakill them so even they are an acceptable risk because repentia sisters only work well on the charge.
I don't really think it should be all that much trouble though. Sisters could use nicer ways of staying out of close combat trouble for an army that relies on close shooting and relatively larger numbers of SM quality dakka. I'm sure that you all know that though, it's not so much the matchup, as the lack of creativity and cute tricks in the sparse codex. You've already got a lot that GK would rather see less of going on, and the army trains you to play with a mindset that is helpful against low action, but high gravity lists like draigo. At least my initial proxy games with sisters have had me really wracking my mind about my advantages in a lot of situations, and not playing into my opponent's plan. Sadly, so far, I'm not sure how to best use all the resources yet, and that faith garbage is really mind boggling to try to plan around.
My biggest piece of advice vs a list like draigo, is keep them occupied and using their few actions doing something sort of lame, whilst neutering the rest of what they have going on. I really love transport blocking in these games.
Making GK long ranged guns have to take time to protect themselves or one of their other few scoring units gives you a lot of breathing room against expensive paladin units, then you can start using your excessive unit count to start siphoning them and making him make decisions on where he wants to press, and if he's willing to waste time breaking through rhinos. Does he want your objective and your squatting multimelta squad? Should he try to make it back and save his other from the rhino and however many fast attack units heading to his back field? Is that other rhino going to move to get in his way next turn or is it going to move up to flank? He has so many points tied up into that unit, and the more dumb tricks you can use to make their actions crappy, the less it's actually worth them.
Best plan is to ignore faith and you'll do fine. It is like a nice bonus (unless you take Reps or Rets, and then it is pretty important).
SoB are all about midfield traffic jams, which plays well against DraigoWing. Also, Tank Shocks are my favorite thing ever. I want SoB vehicles to come with Laud Hailers stock.
With multi-objective style missions being seen at tournaments how I think you have to really push for a tabling of this build. I know that's easier said then done.
pretre wrote:How many are you taking? Is it your objective holder or your go-getter?
Holder = MM/M
Go Getter = M/M
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you're unsure, probably M/M.
So far, looking at 4 of such squads. Also, assume Combi-melta on the SS.
Spidey0804 wrote:MG Mg on the a squad that is moving a lot. MMMG or MGHB would work for a backfield camper. You also want put PW on the VBS.
I'd rather not put a PW on the SS. The Heavy Bolter, while an option, does not seem like that great of a choice for a one of in this kind of squad, even a backfield one.
My concern with the MM is that I feel I am going to be doing much movement and end up not being able to fire it at all. I definitely see the merits of it for a squad that is going to be standing still. Still somewhat divided on the issue though, hence why I asked for the advice. Anyone have any practical experience with foot SoB and the use of MM?
Automatically Appended Next Post: If it has certainly worked out before for others, I'll definitely take them.
I was running 2 large sister squads as a regular back feild anchor that bubble wraped my heavies so the mm was great for tagging backfeild droppers on a regular basis. I also ran kyrnov in that back feild centered very close to all 3 units giving all 3 fearless. Works great against heavy shooting lists since you never can break to shooting you just have to place the mms right in the middle of the squad as far forward as you can get them that way you have over lapping fire from 4 melats in the mid field. Hooking the bolter sister around the flanks so the can cover those areas.
So I got in a 2000 point game on Saturday, took pictures and everything. We wrap it up and I ask my buddy if he's taking that list to the next RTT and he says yes. Then I remember it is an 1850 RTT.
So yeah, I did pretty well in that game with the extra 150. A couple things: I am more against Reps and Rets than ever before. My Reps failed their faith check on the charge and got wiped before they swung. My Rets failed (with Simulacrum) probably 3 of their 5 faith checks during the game. I think that may be the last nail in the coffin for those two in my lists.
It is as I said: Retributors are a good addition to a list, but I would only have one unit of them. I was called crazy and stupid by more than one player for beleiving this. I think in the end I will be proven right. Retributor spam looks better on paper than it does in reality. The range doesn't allow them to play LIKE longfangs and they rely on a mechanic to even approach the same damage output. They are GREAT against hordes and having a unit to spray some down for a round or two is most definitely cool. It fills that niche. Maybe pop a Wraithlord with them. They are useful as a last resort on Rhinos but having 2 or three of them with the lines of sight and range issues they will have is not best practices in MY opinion.
Yeah, I just don't see it. They weren't bad, but they weren't as good as an exorcist and having to 50-25% chance of not doing their job every turn definitely sucked.
Who was saying you should have more than one unit? Yuck.
It was a podcast/internet way to some how add semi long range fire power to the lists but not resipricated by vet sister players. I have 2 of them in the list but they really are not there for opening anything. Unless I don't have anything else to fire at. I use them to pick apart infantry squads that have gotten dumped out of there transports or to pick on MCs. Peopel that think they can be the basis of your heavy fire power are just plain wrong.
Spidey0804 wrote:Most of the time dont dragos just sit there?
My friend who play's Grey Knights will do one of two things.
He will walk across the board with a full squad of paladins with draigo, or he'll take a squad of 5? in stormraven and just dump them wherever he thinks will be most inconvenient for me and my eldar. In past games it was usually on my units who dared think they could CC with grey knights. Although the last game I played I managed to immobilize on turn 1 then melta gun them to death on turn 2 completely with one unit of dragons. I can't believe I didn't use them before.
I only played one game against grey knights with sisters of battle (my third game ever with sisters, I had previously tied against CSM, and Tyranids, grey knights were my first win) and had no probably killing almost everything he had.
]02-03-2012, 17:05
Had a game with my friend today, at his suggestion we played a modified Capture and Control game where you would get one victory point per every full turn you held a objective, and half a point for a contested objective. No one in our group has been his Grey Knights yet(Tyranids, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, yeah were all pretty squishy)(I forgot my pen so most of this is coming from memory, sorry)(He and I both thought that capture and control was weird since it was only seize ground but with less objectives and thought it would make more sense if points were awarded every turn)
He'd been wanting a battle between my sisters and his knights and he even came up with a fluff justification for it.
Basically there was a relic that was incredible valuable to the sisters in this cathedral, but Tyranids are headed to the planet and the grey knights want the relic and hidden gene seed samples at the site and want to evacuate the planet. The sisters refuse to allow the Grey knights to take possession of their most valued relic and refuse to cooperate with them even in the light of a impending tyranid invasion such is their zeal
GK list
He had
1750
Draigo
DreadKnight
StormRaven with a terminator? squad and unval thrawn?
Large Purifier squad? Regular Grey Knights?
Paladin Squad
Vindicare Assassin
3 Fast Attack Choices
(135x3)
4 Dominions & Superior
x2 Melta Guns
Combi Melta
Heavy support
(135 x3)
x3 Exorcists
He had his objective placed behind a glacier I had mine placed inside the ruined cathedral(representing the relic)
I deployed my three exorcists on my right flank, 1 dominion on my left flank with Uriah's rhino, and 2 dominions on my right flank, the three sister rhino in and behind the cathedral. I forgot to place Saint Celestine (do'h) so she went into reserve.
He deployed his purifiers? on his objective behind a glacier across the table from my exorcists, and his paladins were in front of those as close to the center as possible, in the center across from the cathedral was the stormraven and draigo, and further down the board was the Dreadknight.
We roll off for scouts/infiltrators, he gets to deploy his assassin first in a bunker on my far left flank. I scouted my dominions at cruising speed, one headed towards the dread knight, one towards draigo and the other towards the paladins.
First turn I move all three dominions rhinos again and dump out the squads in front of their intended targets. Uriah's rhino follows the far left flanking dominion rhino.
The exorcists move up to draw line of sight on the paladin squad.
Two Rhinos band wagon around the objective in the cathedral creating a choke point at the entrance.
The far right dominion squads kill two paladins with the melta guns, the exorcists kill off another 2. The middle dominion squad wounds Draigo once, the far left dominion squads gets three wounds on the dreadknight, and no assaults are made.
Grey Knights first turn, Stormraven dumps the terimanators at the front entrance of the cathedral, the paladins angrily ramapage towards the dominions draigo follows the stormraven and the dreadknights moves up to the dominions that shot it.
Shooting, the assassins penetrates one of the troop rhinos by the church but only shakes it. The Dreadknight kills two sisters with its template weapon. The paladins I think shot at the dominions and killed one? Storm raven immoblizes Uriah's rhino with lascannons?. Purifiers do nothing but hold on.
DreadKnight assaults the dominion squads and kills two, sisters hold their ground. Paladins amazingly fail to hit at all. Sister return with nothing. Terminators assault the rhino inside the cathedral but immoblize and shake the rhino.
Turn two, Celestine Deep strikes in behind the paladins, far left rhino heads towards draigo, uriah's group piles out and heads towards the terminators. The imbolized sister rhino has its troops hop it so the squads melta guns can be brought to bear on the terminators. The other two sisters rhino wait, the exorcists move up, one tryies to shoot the storm raven but misses the others have no targets in LoS yet.
Assault phase, the dominions squad with the dread knight surivive and hold with 2 left, draigo stays in combat with the dominions, paladins finish off theirs and consoldiate towards the rhino. Uriah's group assaults the terminators with a whopping 40 power sword attacks, with righteous rage there are only 3 misses, and 18 wounds are made, the terminators fail too many attacks and are wiped out but unval thawn which attacked at the same speed managed to kill two DCA's. The group consolidates along the wall outside the church towards draigo, confident that 3 sister squads with melta guns can handle thawn by themselves. Celestine cannot hit anything with her template and cannot assault anything.
GK turn 2
Unval Thawn does not come back, Dread Knight drops a template on the DCA squad killing another DCA. Paladins assault a rhino and stun it(we had horrible rolls on vehicle damage results all game) Draigo finishes off the dominions he engaged, the assasisin manages to penetrate a rhino easily but amazingly shield of faith saves it. Storm Raven moves off and neatly wrecks a exorcists with a multi-melta and stuns another one. Purifiers sit.
SOB turn 3
Celestine charges towards the purifiers/grey knights? and kills 4 off with her ardent blade template, assaults and luckily makes 4 wounds out of her 6 hits on the charge, leaving only two knights that manage to get one wound on her.
The lone exorcist kills one more paladin leaving just one paladin. The one sister rhino stays where it is with the camping sister squad, the other two rhinos cruise off, having to drive around the long way around the wrecked exorcists, it's unlikely they'll make be able to make it to celestine in time.
The rhino's ineffectually shot their bolters at the dread knight, and Uriah's group assaults Draigo and I think manage to get one wound or two on him but lose two more DCA. A sister squad inside the cathedral shoot their meltaguns at the storm raven destroying the lascannons.
GK turn 3,
Assassin shoots at another rhino but only shakes it. Storm raven multi-meltas a exorcists but misses. Draigo hits backs and leaves only one assasin and Uriah alive. Paladin only shakes the rhino again. Celestine kills off the remaining purifiers/grey knights in close combat.Unval Thawn fails to come back
SOB turn 4
The two Exorcists destroy another weapon on the storm raven and immbolizing it twice, translating it into a wrecked vechicle. One rhino turns around to wait with the other squads just in case there's any Unval thawn shenangians. The other rhino falls in behind the exorcists that just fire rushing up as fast as they can. Uriah's and the assassin and draigo remained locked in combat.
GK turn 4,
The lone paladin moves towards the lost objective, the assasins wrecks a rhino with its turbo penetrator ammo, the dread knight moves towards the cathedral in a round about way, there are rhinos blocking the fastest way towards the cathedral. Draigo finishes off the squad, both failing their invuln saves.
SOB turn 5
The exorcists fails to kill the lone paladin or draigo, celestine chases after draigo over the glacier but can't quite get into assault range.
GK turn 5
Unval thawn comes back to life....shoots and kills two sisters, and assaults killing another two sisters, contesting the objective. Draigo hits back to no avail, dread knight doesn't come close to anything
Games ends turn 5 on the D6 roll.
SOB win with 5 points to GK's 2.
Boy was I glad I brought all that melta(12 melta-guns, 6 combi-meltas, 3 exorcists(not melta but still str8 ap1), he had a real hard time dealing with all the armor I had with what he had brought, he glanced a lot but really failed to destroy a lot of vehicles who should have been by rights destroyed. The exorcists did well making a mockery first turn out of the paladins who I tried so vainly to out CC with my eldar in previous games, I rolled high a lot of times but only ever hit with half of my rolls. Going first was really great for me because I was able to gum him up on his left and right wings with dominions scouting and spewing melta guns everywhere, which gave me plenty of time to roll up his terminators with uriah and the conclave. For the first time ever I didn't chase after his stupid assassin and just ignored it,which I spent silly amounts of time on in other games chasing him while everything else that needed my attention wrecked me.
Although I had not intended to put saint celestine in reserve, my mistake turned into a boon because I was able to deep strike her in turn 2 and on turn 3 she wrecked face with his troops holding the objective.
I was also lucky that we had decided on a modified capture and control game, because of anval thawn's last minute intervention regardless of how well my troops had performed it would have been a draw ultimately since his objective was vacant and he was contesting the relic my sisters were guarding.
An all DCA squad was terrifying;y amazing when they got their charge on, but they got nickeled and dimed to death when not in combat and without that torrent of rolls I was unable to force him to roll a lot of saves. I think I'll take a least one or two crusaders next time, the squad might no completely wipe out the squad but it won't have to worry so much about being shot up or losing its members so fast.
I'm interested in trying a higher point game again against grey knights, I'd probably take celestian squads loaded out the same way the dominions are since there isn't much left to pick from, and pick up a few crusaders for sure, though I'd wonder what he'll bring next time to deal with all the hulls I brought.
Sisters are now 1 win, 2 draws(tyranids and chaos space marines respectively) and 0 loses at the moment.
I wish I could get more games in but my friends all go to college and have jobs and I work full-time, might try going to GW for the first time to play with my Eldar since my sister army uses too many proxies at the moment.
Anyone have thoughts? If your curious about the grey knights list, he bought the army a while back from a friend of ours who got out of the hobby, he only bought two more units to add to the models he got and then moved on to making heavily converted nurgle CSM army which he has almost finished painting.
pretre wrote:Yeah, I just don't see it. They weren't bad, but they weren't as good as an exorcist and having to 50-25% chance of not doing their job every turn definitely sucked.
Who was saying you should have more than one unit? Yuck.
The internet says so. A bunch of dudes who know math and dont know reality. Lines of sight and ranges are particularly important because as you get closer to the center of deployment, the less you can see, the more cover saves you invoke and the less likely you are to influence the battle. The further out on the wings they go, the less reach they have and more isolated they become to be picked off by fast or outflanking units. There is a definite difference between them and other heavy squsds. So while they are good, three of them is just too many.
The one great use for more Retributors I can imagine is with Heavy Flamers. That is one hell of a hard hitting squad in rhinos buzzing forward. The sheer number of hits with 4 Rending heavy flamers and 12 bolter shots would be very devastating and if rending didn't work...well... I think you're still just fine! Better than a Dominion squad, just not as fast. So if the plan is to do the Heavy Flamer thing, sure I can see a second unit for sure. But not a second Heavy Bolter one.
Rets are cheap. When they get their act off they're more effective at generating pens vs AV11-13 than Exorcists. They also let you take an extra MM Immo which is pretty nice. The price of 3 Ret Squads and 2 Immos is the same as 3 Exorcists.
I think if you run lots of Rets you need to run lots of Immolators to counteract their inconsistency. Rets' biggest drawback is that once you get to high enough point levels you don't have enough faith to go around. They're not perfect by any means, but neither are Exorcists and I think when you take them either as a cheap add-on or as a way to spam more MM Immos they are a competitive choice.
I have 2 squads in my 2K list. But they have 3HBs and 1 MM... The closer you get to them the harder they start hitting you. Most of the time they are sitting together real close to center board just to pound anything that wants to step over the Midfield line. I dont use the HBs as can openers unless I dont have anything else to shot at.
Spidey0804 wrote:Nice BR. The list is solid. Meched up with triple Exorcists is great build. Why did you opt to go with rhinos VS Immolators on your Dominions?
I run 4 Crusaders with my DCA squad and I really like that set up.
Thanks, it was a few months ago, but I'm still sold on large units of dominions, and I'm not as solid on the exorcists as I used to feel, I still need to try retributors in a actual fight.
I take rhinos because I like large squads of dominions over smaller ones; plus I dislike the immolator, it doesn't interest with its 6 carrying capacity, standard flamer weapon and almost costing double the points of the rhino yet has the same armor profile. I also don't like how the immolator looks for some reason, even though it's just a bog standard rhino with some different doo dads
I don't treat my dominions like a suicidal unit per say, I still use them the same way most sister players do, scout forward, move, drop and shoot, but instead of a unit of 5 dominions shooting 2 melta guns I have a unit of 10 dominions shooting 4 melta guns, the 5 extra models also gives me more wounds to help keep the squad in play while the rest of my army moves up.
And recently seeing how you build your rhinos I like the two bolters on the rhino with the superior and or 1 other sister with a storm bolter and have tried to make the rhinos more dangerous that just their standard 2 shot storm bolter.
In that battle I wanted to try a battle conclave without crusader's to see how they would perform, they did great initially but when they
A. start losing models(every dead model is 3 less base attacks(im inlcuding the two 1 handed weapon bonus but not uriah since they won't always be lead by uriah, so if you charged you'd have 2 base, 1 for 2 weapons, 1 for the banner and 1 for assault bonus. 5 attacks, next round if you didn't kill everything you lose 1/5 of your attacks right of the bat and then you lose even more when the DCA start kicking off)
B. get stuck in combat
they start going down hill because after that first round they don't have the charge attack bonus and +5 invuln +fnp won't keep them safe in a prolonged fight, especially not against power weapon units.
It's hard to find a balance I like because you need those storm shields for fighting in CC and if you get caught out in open terrain, on the other hand you need as many DCA as possible so you can blow through whatever you assaulted so you don't get stuck.(at least that's how I see to use/build them) my favorite so far has been 2 crusaders/7 dca.
Dervos wrote:Thanks, it was a few months ago, but I'm still sold on large units of dominions, and I'm not as solid on the exorcists as I used to feel, I still need to try retributors in a actual fight.
I take rhinos because I like large squads of dominions over smaller ones; plus I dislike the immolator, it doesn't interest with its 6 carrying capacity, standard flamer weapon and almost costing double the points of the rhino yet has the same armor profile. I also don't like how the immolator looks for some reason, even though it's just a bog standard rhino with some different doo dads
I don't treat my dominions like a suicidal unit per say, I still use them the same way most sister players do, scout forward, move, drop and shoot, but instead of a unit of 5 dominions shooting 2 melta guns I have a unit of 10 dominions shooting 4 melta guns, the 5 extra models also gives me more wounds to help keep the squad in play while the rest of my army moves up.
I think they both have their place, but I also like filled out Dominion squads. I think one of the biggest nerfs to the Immolator was removing its fire points. If you could shoot out of the back of them it would be almost a no brainer. But yeah, if you don't want to just suicide your Dominion squads it's great to be able to keep them safe for at least a turn or two and still be able to shoot.
The biggest loss is the anti-mech alpha strike. By not taking the Immolators you lose the Scout move + TLMM + Dominion squad maneuver. But that just means you have to play a little differently. You're sacrificing some first turn power for a more flexible unit that can (hopefully) help out all game long, instead of just being a one shot wonder.
Alright, having played this past weekend with the list I posted earlier, I certainly got a better feel for how some units work (or rather don't).
Triple Rets was actually quite fun and with max squads, people had to devote a fair amount of shooting at them to make them combat ineffective. I still love my Exorcists, but Rets will work in many lists in a heartbeat. With that said, they do have some big drawbacks as noted. Against MSU Razorback/Longfang SW, I was easily out-ranged by the Longfangs with MLs. The Razorbacks that generally had to move forward made good targets for my Rets, and when the AoF went off, I don't think I failed to wreck or explode once.
Against Tau, I was again out-ranged by most of Tau's long range shooting and what targets did present themselves (a Devilfish here and there) either I couldn't get the Act off or Disruption Pods. The few times they did disembark to shoot at me with warriors, the Rets did a decent job.
Finally against Command & Annihilation Barge Necrons w/ C'Tan, the Rets had a hard time doing much of anything either due to range or failure to get off the almost necessary AoF (even needing just a 3+!). Overall, I liked the Rets and would not mind taking a full squad over an Exorcist every so often.
I stupidly when making the finalized list did not include MM in my 20 woman BSS, and I regretted it just about every game. There were enough times when I wasn't moving that I would've loved to have even just that one shot at 24" with a MM.
Since this is getting long I'll finish up with one other unit: Seraphim. Oh how I loved you in previous editions. Oh how mostly ineffective you were in all of my games. Perhaps it was my use of them, but all of my Seraphim were quite 'meh' when it came to the tabletop.
Against the SW, one unit I DS'd near his Longfangs, but by the turn (turn 4) they did come in, it was too little too late. Had they come in turn two, they would've been that much better of a disruption as they were within easy reach of two squads of Longfangs. The 2nd unit of Seraphim I DS'd near one of his Razorbacks on an objective and they scatted somewhere useless at that time, again too little too late (turn 4 again). The final group DS'd where I wanted the 2nd group to go, and actually did their job of almost wiping a min-sized GH pack with Rune Priest off an objective. They proceeded to get shot up and assaulted next turn, losing, and almost costing me the game.
Against the Tau, they came in early enough to do something, it just wasn't something that was going to win me the game. They'd DS in again, maybe shoot at a vehicle or something, and then proceed to die by massed Tau shooting. I only won that game due to St. Celestine (bless her!) and learned the valuable lesson of wanting to go 2nd in Capture and Control when fielding her (Tau player actually won the roll and gave me first turn. Because of that St. Celestine was forced to survive TWO rounds of combat again a nearly full Kroot unit with only one wound left to contest the Tau player's objective.)
Against the Necrons, my rolling was horrible all game, with two of my units of Seraphim mishapping three times. The 3rd finally landed where I had wanted, blew up an Annihilation Barge and then fleeing next turn due to massed shooting by the Necrons. The only thing I would use Seraphim now for would be min squads DSing with Inf. Pistols, but Doms still do it better imo.
For those in favor of TL;DR: Rets good, but probably not 3 units worth, MM in BSS, and Seraphim sub-par.
P.S.: I may be writing up a batrep proper as I have the lists used, but no photos.
Amerikon wrote:
I think they both have their place, but I also like filled out Dominion squads. I think one of the biggest nerfs to the Immolator was removing its fire points. If you could shoot out of the back of them it would be almost a no brainer. But yeah, if you don't want to just suicide your Dominion squads it's great to be able to keep them safe for at least a turn or two and still be able to shoot.
The biggest loss is the anti-mech alpha strike. By not taking the Immolators you lose the Scout move + TLMM + Dominion squad maneuver. But that just means you have to play a little differently. You're sacrificing some first turn power for a more flexible unit that can (hopefully) help out all game long, instead of just being a one shot wonder.
I'll put it this way, by taking a rhino I can move my dominions 12" scout+ 12" cruising speed +move out of the rhino up to 6" (48" threat range, 36" of movement + 4 12" melta shots)and not have to worry about losing one shot of TL multimelta that will probably disappear, I'd like to think that they would focus on the closest targets when I'm moving towards them, so that leaves them either shooting the immolator or the squad. Though in the immolator's in case I think it makes a more compelling threat than a rhino.
On the other hand if I take a immolator I can move it 12" scout and then move out of the immolator and fire 2 melta guns(30" threat range on 2 melta guns, and 36" threat range on the one multimelta)
Rhino
(48" threat range, 36" of movement + 4 12" melta shots)
I get four shots and I can effectively reach out and touch someone in the first turn within 48" if necessary
vs
Immolator
(30" threat range on 2 melta guns, and 36" threat range on the one multimelta)
I have two separate units that both have a equal chance of getting one wound in. (What's the difference really between rolling 1 die twice and rolling 2 dice once other than you got a chance at getting 2 wounds?)
Now you could move the same amount with as the rhino does, but I would assume that you wouldn't usually want to do this since you lose 1 round of shooting from a very fragile vehicle.
I like the 4 melta gun shots better because I believe it gives me a better shot at really wrecking an opponent's army on that first turn strike. the fact that I have 3 squads that can do this really forces the opponent to make a decision on how he or she should react. On one hand I have 30 infantry units with 12 melta guns all together shooting at something they would rather have me not shoot and if left alone next turn they could shoot and assault vechiles(krak standard+ melta possibly on the superior), there are also 3 rhinos, they could of course ignore these but if they don't tie up the squads in combat they could just hop back in the rhino, and the rhino itself could be a legitimate threat if it has 2 bolters or a h/k missile.
I like having redundancy, over flexibility in firing. I could potentially blow up to two vechiles with the immolator/dominion combo, I can also potentially miss both. The 4 melta guns shots on a 10 girl squad could all miss too, but I'm firing 4 shots at one unit instead of 2 and 1 twin-linked at two different units or the same unit if necessary. I don't know maybe mathmatically 2 shots and 1 TL shot has a better chance to hit that 4 shots but the 4 shots on paper looks better to me because I don't know any better.
A rhino with the h/k and missile would be 55 points but they aren't usually taken since the rhino is just typically there to get the unit where it needs to go. So it's almost as much as a immolator if so upgraded, or they get slap on a combi-melta on the superior and melta bombs. A immolator with a tlmm is 80 points, you can get two rhinos and a extra bolter for that cost.
For me the rhino is there to move my units, take shots for their squads and make a general nuisance out of themselves, their cheap and a good accessory for the squad.
An immolator to me, its almost like it's trying to be a tank, points wise and weapons wise, but it's a dedicated transport and has a rhino profile, also as you had mentioned there are no fire points, which really hurts. Since a rhino can move around at combat speed and shoot out without risking it's members.
How I build my armies right now there just isn't a role for the immolator in it.
I cant remember if I have ever run 4 melta gun squads of Dominions... Come to think of it I haven't. I have run them as Tool boxes 2 melta 2 flamers but I didnt like that much and I have run them as 4 flamers...
Like J said Im thinking of trying out a 4 HF Retributors squad for S and Gs.
Dervos wrote:
Rhino
(48" threat range, 36" of movement + 4 12" melta shots)
I get four shots and I can effectively reach out and touch someone in the first turn within 48" if necessary
vs
Immolator
(30" threat range on 2 melta guns, and 36" threat range on the one multimelta)
I have two separate units that both have a equal chance of getting one wound in. (What's the difference really between rolling 1 die twice and rolling 2 dice once other than you got a chance at getting 2 wounds?)
Your movement numbers are a little off. You've got a 12" scout move, a 12" first turn move, a disembark of 2", so that's 38" threat range from the Rhino. With your Immos you can do a 12" scout, a 2" disembark and a 6" movement which will give you a 32" threat from the Dominions along with the 42" threat from the Immolator.
With the Rhino tactic you described you end up with a problem where you have a rather expensive unit just hanging out completely unsupported in front of the enemy's entire army. A trade like that is worth it if you can get something big for it (like a Land Raider), but it's usually safer to stay in your ride and make them knock you out of it.
Dervos wrote:
I like having redundancy, over flexibility in firing. I could potentially blow up to two vechiles with the immolator/dominion combo, I can also potentially miss both. The 4 melta guns shots on a 10 girl squad could all miss too, but I'm firing 4 shots at one unit instead of 2 and 1 twin-linked at two different units or the same unit if necessary. I don't know maybe mathmatically 2 shots and 1 TL shot has a better chance to hit that 4 shots but the 4 shots on paper looks better to me because I don't know any better.
Shooting at the same thing, you should get more hits from the 4 meltaguns, but it's not a big difference (about half of a hit). The important thing is that the two units can fire at different targets. So you can concentrate your fire if you need to or split fire if you get a little lucky. In short the two units have a greater "upside" than a single large Dominion squad. I think it's fair to trade that upside for a unit that will, usually, get another turn of shooting.
Dervos wrote:
For me the rhino is there to move my units, take shots for their squads and make a general nuisance out of themselves, their cheap and a good accessory for the squad.
An immolator to me, its almost like it's trying to be a tank, points wise and weapons wise, but it's a dedicated transport and has a rhino profile, also as you had mentioned there are no fire points, which really hurts. Since a rhino can move around at combat speed and shoot out without risking it's members.
How I build my armies right now there just isn't a role for the immolator in it.
Rhino's are good for moving units, but they also keep them safe so don't be too eager to get out. I'm going to steal pretre's line and remind everyone that "She who bails, fails". I think if you take Immos, you need to take a bunch of them, like 3 or 4 at a minimum.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Evil Lamp 6 wrote:For those in favor of TL;DR: Rets good, but probably not 3 units worth, MM in BSS, and Seraphim sub-par.
WRT the Seraphim, I think it was a mistake for you to give them Inferno Pistols, especially on a maxed out squad like that. Infernos are very expensive and they don't interact well with the Sera's AoF. You should also have so much melta everywhere else that you don't really need them.
What Seras are good at is using their double flamers and their AoF for piling up ludicrous amounts of wounds on infantry. Since they're infantry specialists, I like to put an Eviscerator on the VSS to give them some insurance against walkers. Also, don't feel compelled to deep strike them. If you're playing against an army with assault elements that want to get closer, it's useful to hold your Seras in cover and then spring them on turn 2 or 3 as a shooty version of a counter-assault unit.
Anyways, Seraphim flamers are seriously awesome damage dealers against hordes. I sue them now like I'd use Crisis suits: Vegas going deep strikers going for broke. BAWOOOOOOOOOOSH. I love that sound effect honestly. Even typing it is fun. Turkey or ham... Turkey or ham... FOCUS!
Anyways, the Eviscerator is a good idea or at minimum a meltabomb to make it multifunctional. But The Eviscerator, if you have the points, is a good deal on them. I took mine off for points considerations but will add it back on when i optimize, like I think I mentioned before.
The meltapistols just dont make as much sense to me. They require an even bigged sac to use, and still can't charge when they show up so... IG parking lots probably would be a good use but... theose flamers are just too delicious. I got melta everywhere. Dont need Seraphim to deliver it.
Not a fan of deepstriking seraphim, I gotta say. Leaving them off the board for that long can really be detrimental. Especially when they can use cover to advance on the enemy with about the same amount of risk but getting there sooner.
I'm not concerned about sooner. i want the Seraphim to do two things:
1. Flame something real bad.
2. Draw the enemy i nthe wrong direction and if they dont go for it then
3. Flame something real bad again.
4 Draw the enemy i nthe wrong difection and if they dont go for it again then
5. Flame something real bad.
So that's the plan. Getting to the enemy, coming from the wrong direction, hurts you. So I avoid it. As they are the least important unit in my army (instead of the most important like they used to be) I really don't care if they die as long as they do what i just described.
My worry with the 10 Dominions is that they would just be a more expensive suicide unit ... you are essentially dropping off a squad of basic sisters with a few gun upgrades in easy assault range... if I am just popping open a landraider and then getting devoured whole by the terminators I unleashed, I'd rather pay for 5 dead girls than 10. Do you just avoid sending them against vehicles with assault units?
On the converse, I always max or near-max out my Reps, because that is the difference between losing 5 girls and getting no swings back, and 5 dead girls and 15 swings back - min size Rep squads can't do anything but hunt tanks, really.
Hollowman wrote:My worry with the 10 Dominions is that they would just be a more expensive suicide unit ... you are essentially dropping off a squad of basic sisters with a few gun upgrades in easy assault range... if I am just popping open a landraider and then getting devoured whole by the terminators I unleashed, I'd rather pay for 5 dead girls than 10. Do you just avoid sending them against vehicles with assault units?
On the converse, I always max or near-max out my Reps, because that is the difference between losing 5 girls and getting no swings back, and 5 dead girls and 15 swings back - min size Rep squads can't do anything but hunt tanks, really.
Speaking of that I also notice that a 5 man Dominion squad has a better chance to tie something up rather than a 10 man squad does. Follow me on this one. with a 5 man squad I have 3 wound allocation groups I can do. This mean I have the ability to absorb up to 8 wounds while only placing one save on my VS. By stacking power weapon hits to the 2 bolter sisters if I they have to take any. Now vs an all PW squad you can assume that you are going to loose 4 but you have a 16% chance not to loose the VS. Is it great odds, by no mean. However a 16% chance is still a 16% chance.
Most of the Time I lose combat by 1 or 2 even 4 at the most and I can still hang in combat by rolling a 5, If I can tie them up for 1 turn my DCAs will be on them next turn.(I dont charge my Dominions so they would get charged in my opponents assault phase.). This then gives me more of a chance to get a consolidation off of the CC and if i do have a couple Melta guns left I could be standing next to another target following the hand to hand.
If you even attempt to do something like this with a 10 man squad you will loose 4 to 6 of them and you will have to roll to stay in the combat. A much lower probability that this is going to work out in your favor.
Yeah, max size dominions play entirely different. You can't afford to suicide them unless they are taking out A LOT. (i.e. krak grenade charge against a parking lot or something).
As for Seraphim deep-strike, it's all you. Do it if you enjoy it.
In fact one of my favorite things about Warhammer is "letting it ride" tactics. The most thrilling moments for me are when you go balls to the wall and just go crazy on someone whose really not expecting it.
yeah they've donte the math in their heads and agaainst normal generals who wont take unnecessary risks, they feel they've deployed well.
But I WILL take risks and FORCE him to roll the dice. Cause this is a game of chance and if you dont take any, lady luck takes a dim view of you.
So deep striking like a crazy nun, Ramming tanks to ensure a hit, tank shocking with a perfectly functioning tank becasue the chances are just better sometimes of breaking a unit when you do, and all the other fun stuff in the game that shakes it up.
I get bored, I think, playing pokey the puppyHammer
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hollowman wrote:My worry with the 10 Dominions is that they would just be a more expensive suicide unit ... you are essentially dropping off a squad of basic sisters with a few gun upgrades in easy assault range... if I am just popping open a landraider and then getting devoured whole by the terminators I unleashed, I'd rather pay for 5 dead girls than 10. Do you just avoid sending them against vehicles with assault units?
On the converse, I always max or near-max out my Reps, because that is the difference between losing 5 girls and getting no swings back, and 5 dead girls and 15 swings back - min size Rep squads can't do anything but hunt tanks, really.
10 Dominions can be protected by the way you use the Rhinos. When you place them correctly, in a chevron formation, you should be able to fire at the target while disallowing a charge from units in front of you. Since you go first it would be unusual to have units behind that line, though infiltrators and also asault ramp type vehicles may be able to manage it...but the Assault ramp vehicles are probably their targets anyways.
It should take an enemy until turn 2 to reach the Dominion but in turn 2 you can mount up and surge forward/backaway or just back up and run to extend out a turn. Also, you ARE firing again before they get the chance.
Jump troops are the obvious threat to this. There is nothing you CAN do about that. However, that is what countercharge units are for and fearless bubbles are for. Get those Concalve buddies in there and ready to go so when the enemy jumps your sweet Power armored patooty, you can wack them for their efforts.
Jancoran wrote:10 Dominions can be protected by the way you use the Rhinos. When you place them correctly, in a chevron formation, you should be able to fire at the target while disallowing a charge from units in front of you. Since you go first it would be unusual to have units behind that line, though infiltrators and also asault ramp type vehicles may be able to manage it...but the Assault ramp vehicles are probably their targets anyways.
The problem is now that you are using multiple units to do the job of one unit. And it doesn't block units from coming around the sides, which you mention.
It should take an enemy until turn 2 to reach the Dominion but in turn 2 you can mount up and surge forward/backaway or just back up and run to extend out a turn. Also, you ARE firing again before they get the chance.
This is, of course, assuming that one or both of the rhinos doesn't get blown up and you charged. Now you lost three units (a lot more expensive) when you could have just used a cheaper disposable unit to do the same job.
Jump troops are the obvious threat to this. There is nothing you CAN do about that. However, that is what countercharge units are for and fearless bubbles are for. Get those Concalve buddies in there and ready to go so when the enemy jumps your sweet Power armored patooty, you can wack them for their efforts.
Agreed, but remember that Doms work WAY forward of your lines. On turn 1, they are often 12-24" ahead of the rest of your army. Not really in counter-charge territory.
Not sure I see why this matters. if you have two dominions squad, their rhinos form the perfect Chevron defense and escape plan. So yeah. the enemy MIGHT kill them, smoked as they are. Then again, they MIGHT not. You may recall that the army actually has other things coming too!
The enemy have to move their units according to what they predict will happen to the Rhinos. They will probably swing aroun the sides and then be forced through wreckage if they can kill it... But yes. All of that is at least possible. if you want to play a game where nothing dies, you're in the wrong hobby.
But when round 1 is over, the Rhinos should (6" long, 2 " disembark) be in Kyrinovs range with one Sister if Kyrinovs unit runs (and why wouldn't they?). If you are super worried about the charge issue, maybe for whatever deployment reason and that could happen, just dont move into "juice" range and take your chances with STR 8. It's not like you dont have Multimeltas to fall back on. Most of the time I think the threat will be manageable though. and 10 Dominion, while not Gods gift to melee, certainly ARE still 10 strong. The enemy will be chwewing for a bit longer than they are used to while the Conclave prepared to ruin their day.
Just pull some figs out and figure out how to make it work. It's fine a majority of the times so far. I'd use Vassal to plop a pci on here showing the trailing sister and the running Kyrinov and all that but you can do it yourself I am sure.
/shrug it doesn't really matter. I just prefer small disposable units to big ones. I played with the big unit and they weren't sufficiently awesome to want to take the chance.
Also, Kyrinov's unit wouldn't run because they would be in a rhino.
A LOT of people like small disposable units. It bites you a bit in KP missions though, when they are so squishy. it also bites you if you dont have enough to at least hold the line for the one pivotal phase while cavalry arrives. So with a unit that will operate so obviously near the front line, why lose it unnecessarily is the philosophy that drives me on it. And if they DONT get hit (which is our best case scenario) all the better for me. Losing 5 means losing two meltas. Losing 5 to my unit means losing no meltas (more or less). Good times.
playstyle is indeed different for us. But as long as you can envision what i am talking about, you can get the idea behind it without having to do it yourself. I'm just saying that it works. One more tool for the toolbag.
Automatically Appended Next Post: and on the kyrinov thing: he would run. in round one you move 12", get out two inches and run behind the Dominion. i missed that part of your post.
Sometimes these discussion hinge on what your Opponent does. I think this is one of those clear cases.
In Jancoran's case it would be - Will the opponet attempt to charge a fearless set of 10 dominions backed by a DCA squad. Or will the opt to go after the Conclave.
Were as in Pretre's case you have - Will the opponent go after the 5 man squad or the Immolator with the TW LK MM. Each of us has a preference for a composition of the unit based on its Synergy for our individual play style.
This is one of the reasons I really like this dex. Even though we all have exactly the same units the ideologically based on how to employ them can be completely different.
A list with 30 Dominions functions completely different than 15 with 3 twin linked MM Immolators does.
So true. I really do like the docex, as long as it stays at 2K or less. Acts of Faith get stretched if you go further. But the codex works well which I will tell you...I was NOT a big fan when I first saw it. I was very much up in arms. Glas I was wrong. in the end.
Fast Attack: Seraphim Squad (5)
Seraphim Squad 4 Two Hand Flamers (x2);
Seraphim Superior Bolt Pistol;(x2)
Fast Attack: Dominion Squad (5)
Dominion Squad 4 Meltagun (x2)
Dominion Superior Combi-Meltagun (x1);
Immolator Searchlight; Dozer Blade; Twin-Linked Multi-melta
Fast Attack: Dominion Squad (5)
Dominion Squad 4 Meltagun (x2)
Dominion Superior Combi-Meltagun (x1);
Immolator Searchlight; Dozer Blade; Twin-Linked Multi-melta
Quick Recap Game 1 VS Crons Immotech Cytan build - won Minor victory 2 to 1 in Objectives
Standard Deployment 5 Objectives
High Lights - 8 Repentia on my left flank had a Turn 1 Assault against a lord with night scythe that turbo boosted 36 inches then stood the lord up for 5 turns of combat. Uriah Bomb decimated Immotechs unit then sweeping advanced him by turn 2. Retributors blew away wraiths after they decided to eat both dominion squads. Seraphim despenced the scarabs in 1 turn of shooting and 1 turn of CC.
Game 2 Triple Vendetas, 2 Leman Russ and a Mantacore IG list - Tie
Dawn of War 3 objectives
High lights - 1 Squad of Repentia was able to multi-assault 3 squads of IG and a Vendetta after running the entire board in 3 turns. I was then able to make 2 of the squads break and run off the table. While the DCA squad got blasted to bits by some battle cannon carnage Uriah walked out of the wreckage with only 1 wound. Then hopped in the a Dominion Squad they the assaulted a heavy weapons plattoon and was able to make it break and run off the table. He ended up jumping on the center objective late in the round and even as my Rets blew the vendetta out of the sky I wasn't able to make the squad on the objective break and run away.
Game 3 Salamanders 5 drop pod list with 2 thunder fire cannons and huge block of TH/SS Terminators Minor Victory 11 to 12 KPs Spearhead KPs
Highlights - Turn 1 he dropped a combat sqauded tactical squad and 2 ironclads on my left flank. I had castled in the corner. By the end of the assault phase on turn 2 I was up 7 to 1 as the Repentia and PEs beat the snot out of all of that dropped. After my Uriah bomb decided not to go off. My Repentia PEs had to pick up the slack and go into CC with Vulcan and his Librarian who was attached to the Termies. The Repentia were able to cut down 3 termies and vulcan and the librarian in 1 turn then got the snot beat out of them. The PEs failed miserably only killing off 1 termie but it did hold them up for another turn. In a late multi-assault the temies were able to take out 2 of my squads with another tac squad dropping. I was praying for it to end but it went 6 turns and in the last turn the vehicles that I have left were moving at full speed just to get way from the last of his units. I was up a huge amount of KPS and I got greedy. I should have just started running around the board.
3 rhinos throwing off an HK and then 8 shots a round on the move afterwards is pretty nice with your concalve and Repentia sisters daring the enemy to come close the whole time.
Dominions lead the way of course. In round 1 you should reliably kill 3 enemy armor pieces and 4 on a good day. That's a lot for an anti-armor "alpha strike".
Drop pod armies are the ones that I have had the greatest success against for precisely the reason you cited: you can blow them up good and run away. They are slow to catch up. Jump units would come to mind as an issue but then... You have craptons of melta to give their face holes. So you'll lose something, but it will be at great cost to them.
Congratz in any event. SO glad to see the Sisters of Battle doing...well... actual battles!
I mean, if you play against anything with a 2+ save, you auto win. 10 melta rhinos is pretty funny. If your opponent is mobile though, he just pops the exos and laughs.
Jancoran wrote:Eh... who cares. Stelek is fully willing to blast people who can't defend themselves AND blast ones who can.
This forum cares. Although I didn't see it officially in the forum rules with a quick scan, I can tell you that the mods generally frown upon bagging on someone who cannot defend themselves. I would suggest editing your post to avoid that.
Jancoran wrote:Eh... who cares. Stelek is fully willing to blast people who can't defend themselves AND blast ones who can.
This forum cares. Although I didn't see it officially in the forum rules with a quick scan, I can tell you that the mods generally frown upon bagging on someone who cannot defend themselves. I would suggest editing your post to avoid that.
Pretre has the right of it - we definitely do not allow users to blast anyone who is no longer able to access the site and, in essence, 'defend' themselves.
I was more shocked that people think its a good list... ai really could care less what he says..
Yes the truth hurts sometime...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alpharius wrote:
pretre wrote:
Jancoran wrote:Eh... who cares. Stelek is fully willing to blast people who can't defend themselves AND blast ones who can.
This forum cares. Although I didn't see it officially in the forum rules with a quick scan, I can tell you that the mods generally frown upon bagging on someone who cannot defend themselves. I would suggest editing your post to avoid that.
Pretre has the right of it - we definitely do not allow users to blast anyone who is no longer able to access the site and, in essence, 'defend' themselves.
LOL holy crap Alpharius that was quick... you running a Stelek search the whole time?
After thinking long and hard about 5 girl squads of doms vs 10 girls squads of doms I'm sticking with the 10 girls squads that use 4 melta guns. I dislike both elites choices, and since the rest of my FOC is filled up I need to take the 10 girl squads to fill out the rest of my point and then stick a h/k missile on all my rhinos and exorcists.
If I was taking 5 girl squads of dominions then I would probably take some repentia because I have so many more points to fill out, but I don't like either of the elites choices or have the models for them.
I've decided to shy away from tons of upgrades, extra armor,search lights and extra bolters on rhinos can really add up and i don't like what they add to how i build my army. I really did like the idea you had with storm bolter superiors and extra bolt guns on the rhino for a while but after giving it more thought it wasn't something I wanted to do with my army.
So aside from the weapon purchases(meltaguns) I just spent my last 100 points on equipped all my vehicles with h/k missiles to give them all a little bite that first turn(If i get a chance to use them/ only move my rhinos 6", they'd also be cheaper they other rhino upgrades)
I like saint celestine but in my experience she's more of a decoy/delayer than anything else and won't hold something up for long by herself, so I roll with 2 battle conclaves as I've mentioned before.
One with Uriah as usual but on the other one i';ve caved in and gone with a Confessor wielding a eviserator.
I don't take kyrinov because I don't want to be rolling additional armor saves on a battle conclave since most of them will be +5.
Second I only use one unit of retributors so taking him to just have a fearless ranged unit isn't worth it, I took him on other lists that used 3 retributors squads because I'd be able to use him to help bolster them like yall said but my list has changed; plus all of my rhinos are full up with regular sized 10 girl squads and since i don't want him footslogging by himself he stays behind.
The regular confessor gets me the righteous rage that really helps the conclave murder things and the eviserator gives me a few more strong power weapon attacks and lets me tackle vehicles as well if necessary. He's 10 points more than kyrinov but gives me the tools im looking for. Laud hailer and simulacrum just don't work with my army since I only have 5 sister type squads. I rarely need to use a AOF on my troop choices so all of them naturally go to the dominions who only get one chance a turn to use a AOF anyway. But to help out with that first turn strike I decided to to H/K missiles on everything. I'd used to try and squeeze in melta bombs and power swords on all my squads but I pulled back because they already have krak grenades if they really need to assault a vechile, second they have melta guns, if those don't work perhaps 10 krak grenades will. I also have more long range anti tank now in my list and one of the conclaves has a 2D6 pent sword if the needs calls.
x10 sisters
x2 melta gun
superior chains sword
rhino
h/k
x10 sisters
x2 melta gun
superior chains sword
rhino
h/k
Exorcist
Exorcist
x5 Retributors
x4 Heavy bolters
superior chainsword
x10 Dominions
x4 melta guns
superior chain sword
Rhino
h/k
x10 Dominions
x4 melta guns
superior chain sword
Rhino
h/k
x10 Dominions
x4 melta guns
superior chain sword
Rhino
h/k
I exchanged the bolter on the superior for a chainsword for free not only for WYSIWG but also to give her one more chance at wounding something.
So in a ideal world I'll have 30 dominions scouting with 12 melta guns, 9 h/k missiles + exorcist volley's on the first turn provided I ideally only move the rhinos 6" and exorcists don't move at all. Alternatively the h/k missile gives the exorcist weapon insurance, also in most games the chance of me getting to use all of my missiles is low but I'm not spending so many points on my rhinos. They really don't need extra armor, search lights and extra bolters in my opinion, but a cheap one shot missile with unlimited range that has 66% chance to hit something in the open and possibly disable it in some way or wreck it will really help out the rest of my army considering how weak sister's stat line and how much I/they rely on rhinos for protection.
I've tried x3 retributors and x3 exorcists, I think a mix between the two will work the best as yall already found.
Also after trial and error, I personally like the 7 DCA/2 crusader mix the best because 7 gives me a lot of bite to my counter assault squad couple with x2 crusaders for a little bit of endurance. A battle conclave with no crusader's losses it's effectiveness too quickly and I rarely have a chance to get them into a second assault, and in the unfortunate event you lose your rhino they'll need some help against shooting wounds.
It's not a perfect list by any means but I like it a lot and caters to my play style better I think than previous lists I made.
I think Stelek's list was OK but it's
1. horribly expensive
2. has no answer to anything in regards to assault and relies exclusively on the sisters themselves to do the melee, if they get stuck into combat with any decent cc unit they won't be able to shoot them and will probably more than likely run away or die.
3. A cannoness with no invuln save, I know it's nitpicking but it feels off to me having a HQ unit with no invuln save
4. a lot of points are tied up in vechile upgrades, which is fine, but seems wasteful in my mind(160 points 8% of his army cost on top of 350 points of AV 11 vehicle that he's already spending, though I did spend a 100 points on my vechiles as well so i'm just as guilty)
I like that
1. his anti tank and anti horde is spread nice and even, 2 melta guns on every squads plus the bog standard bolter, an opponent won't be able to take out a lot of his AT in one fell swoop because it's everywhere and it's not concentrated heavily in any one squadO(which is a risk I take in my army, having 3 squads with 4 and 2 with w)
2. because it's a lot of models it's hard to chew through, 80 infantry and 12 vechiles is a lot to take out. which means he has a very large field presence but this has it's own problems in certain deployments and against certain table sizes.
3. a lot of troop choices, he'll find no lack of scoring units.
Also his list seems to have slightly more KP than most sisters of battle armies I've seen but they are usually always high on KP so it's not that big of a deal.(mine has 19 compared to his 23)
A good long Fangs list would decimate that list, once transports go the frags start flying. Sorry I just dont see it as a viable list. It has melta ok we have always had that ability. Once you drop the Dominions its just a matter of ignoring the Exorcists and dropping his rhinos.
By turn 3 he could be totally on foot. Once they are on the field any half decent CCMEQ could beat the snot out of them.
He has just gimped the army into a 12 shooting army.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for your list your going to have to protect you BSS with only 2 of them. When I run 2 BSS they are on foot at 15 to 20 strong.
2 x Wolf Guard w/ 2 x Power Fist + 2 x Combi-Melta
1 x Wolf Guard + 1 x Combi-Melta
1 x Razorback w/ TLLas
Troops:
5 x Grey Hunters + Melta
1 x Razorback w/ TLLas
4 x Grey Hunters + Melta
1 x Grey Hunters w/ MoW
1 x Razorback w/ TLLas
4 x Grey Hunters + Melta
1 x Grey Hunters w/ MoW
1 x Razorback w/ Las/Plas
4 x Grey Hunters + Melta
1 x Grey Hunters w/ MoW
1 x Razorback w/ Las/Plas
4 x Grey Hunters + Melta
1 x Grey Hunters w/ MoW
1 x Razorback w/ Las/Plas
Heavy:
5 x Long Fangs w/ 5 x Missile Launchers
1 x Pack Leader
1 x Razorback w/ TLLas
5 x Long Fangs w/ 5 x Missile Launchers
1 x Pack Leader
1 x Razorback w/ Las/Plas
5 x Long Fangs w/ 2 x Lascannon + 3 x Missile Launchers
1 x Pack Leader
1 x Razorback w/ Las/Plas
Grand Total: 1999
9 Razors with Las
13 ML 2 Las cannons
Turn 1(if I go first)
Target Selection for army - Domnions in Rhinos X3 W Las Cannons
Depending on Deployment Lead Rhinos of BSS w Las Cannons
ML go against anything that has been popped out of transports. BTW I'm going to be hugging the back board edge till turn 3 then Its a mad dash for OBJ/ Table Quarters
I know that list has to close with me. If it can I just keep picking off the leads. I have the chance of loosing 2 to 5 vehicles turn 1 if all my shooting has failed miserably and he is able to make it to my back line some how. But all and all that is really hard to do.
I just dont see it playing out any other way. The SOB list is really short ranged. Even shorter than normal. I would have to play test it to see how it does but Its not on my more favorable list to play. Let a lone throw it against a horde orks list... Game Over for SOB, you will be fighting for a tie... If its two objectives you have a slight chance of winning on a contest in his backfield with the Dominions our flanking.
Assuming that he never takes out anything the entire three turns:
33 Las Shots
39 ML Shots
66/3 Las Shots hit. 66/18 Glances and 132/9 Pens. Oh, SoF. 330/108 Glances, 660/54 Pens.
Lascannon: So about 3 glances and 12 Pens. This is with no cover. We'll assume that 1/3 kill, so 4 Dead.
39 ML Shots. 78/3 Hit. 78/18 Glance, 78/6 Pen. And SoF, 390/54 glance and 390/36 pen. 1/3 Kill, so about 3-4 dead.
So all that fire power and on average, assuming no cover and no return fire to even suppress, you kill, on average, 8 Rhinos in 3 turns. Let's be generous and say 10. You still haven't killed his whole army and that doesn't count the difficulties of split fire, LOS, him shooting back, etc so on.
Edit: Napkin math obviously, I'm sure I botched up somewhere.
Dervos wrote:After thinking long and hard about 5 girl squads of doms vs 10 girls squads of doms I'm sticking with the 10 girls squads that use 4 melta guns.
I've been playing with the 10 woman Dominion squads for a while. I just went to a tourney and that re-emphasized how much I like them. Although I went with 3 melta, 1 flamer, and a combi-plasma on the VSS. I also added a Simulacrum to each squad which was pretty excellent for squeezing out every last bit of faith. I had re-rolls on the 4 squads who needed them the most. I can't think of a better way to spend 60 points.
My list and a brief description of the games from the tourney: (In a spoiler since it's not directly relevant to the conversation.)
It did OK. I was 3-0 and in 1st place after day 1 and then I fell flat on my face day 2.
Game 1:
I dominated a Twin LR Templar army (as you might expect)
Game 2:
I won a narrow 1KP victory over horde Tyranids (Celestine killed the Swarmlord!!!)
Game 3:
I won a fairly tense game against MSU Space Wolves. Celestine and the outflanking Dominions were pretty clutch in that game.
Game 4:
Dark Eldar + DoW saw me get absolutely rolled. On Turn 1 I did my best to hunker down, but I lost all of my heavy support choices so it wasn't until turn 3 that I could start to return fire to the Ravagers and Venoms that were just lighting me up. By that point Vect and some Wyches were rolling through my exposed units. I was able to come around on his flank and kill a bunch of stuff but it was too little way too late.
Game 5:
This was for the overall win in the Tourney vs Footdar (of all armies!). I got first turn and decided to sac my Dominions in an effort to wipe the Wraithlords (his only long range shooting). They did ok but I had to use the rest of my shooting to finish the job. This may have been my first mistake but at the end of Turn 1, even though he had more points on the board, I thought I was in a really good position. The Rets dropped the third and final WL which was pretty amazing. But after that they managed to fail 4 straight Ld checks (3 pin checks from Pathfinders and finally a break on the lone survivor). I wasted Celestine trying to snipe Eldrad (not realizing he was fortuned!) and in retrospect I should have taken out the damn Pathfinders. Eldrad killed her (Turn 3) and she didn't get back up. My last shot at pulling it out was dashed on Turn 4 when my Seraphim scattered 12" and mishapped by less than 1/2".
In the end I was bitterly disappointed that I couldn't bring more glory to the Sisters.
Jancoran wrote:Eh... who cares. Stelek is fully willing to blast people who can't defend themselves AND blast ones who can.
This forum cares. Although I didn't see it officially in the forum rules with a quick scan, I can tell you that the mods generally frown upon bagging on someone who cannot defend themselves. I would suggest editing your post to avoid that.
Pretre has the right of it - we definitely do not allow users to blast anyone who is no longer able to access the site and, in essence, 'defend' themselves.
Defend himself? I quoted him EXACTLY. His words. I think you parsed my post a little too harshly even if I WAS a little too harsh.
Well that's fine. So long as the sword cuts both ways, whatever.
...And...Spidey for President. that got deleted for some reason. So Im saying it again.
pretre wrote:So all that fire power and on average, assuming no cover and no return fire to even suppress, you kill, on average, 8 Rhinos in 3 turns. Let's be generous and say 10. You still haven't killed his whole army and that doesn't count the difficulties of split fire, LOS, him shooting back, etc so on
I'll agree that you're not going to lose all of your tanks (probably in any game ever, let alone in 3 turns) but I'd argue that it doesn't really matter. All he has to do is suppress or destroy the long range shooting and then you're forced to chase after him with your melta squads. This is pretty much a bad Witch Hunter list. It would probably be ok if there was army-wide stubborn but your Rhinos are necessarily going to be near each other so once a couple get popped you'll be on the wrong end of some multi-charges really quick. That list is so match-up dependent it's not even funny.
Dervos wrote:After thinking long and hard about 5 girl squads of doms vs 10 girls squads of doms I'm sticking with the 10 girls squads that use 4 melta guns.
I've been playing with the 10 woman Dominion squads for a while. I just went to a tourney and that re-emphasized how much I like them. Although I went with 3 melta, 1 flamer, and a combi-plasma on the VSS. I also added a Simulacrum to each squad which was pretty excellent for squeezing out every last bit of faith. I had re-rolls on the 4 squads who needed them the most. I can't think of a better way to spend 60 points.
My list and a brief description of the games from the tourney: (In a spoiler since it's not directly relevant to the conversation.)
It did OK. I was 3-0 and in 1st place after day 1 and then I fell flat on my face day 2.
Game 1:
I dominated a Twin LR Templar army (as you might expect)
Game 2:
I won a narrow 1KP victory over horde Tyranids (Celestine killed the Swarmlord!!!)
Game 3:
I won a fairly tense game against MSU Space Wolves. Celestine and the outflanking Dominions were pretty clutch in that game.
Game 4:
Dark Eldar + DoW saw me get absolutely rolled. On Turn 1 I did my best to hunker down, but I lost all of my heavy support choices so it wasn't until turn 3 that I could start to return fire to the Ravagers and Venoms that were just lighting me up. By that point Vect and some Wyches were rolling through my exposed units. I was able to come around on his flank and kill a bunch of stuff but it was too little way too late.
Game 5:
This was for the overall win in the Tourney vs Footdar (of all armies!). I got first turn and decided to sac my Dominions in an effort to wipe the Wraithlords (his only long range shooting). They did ok but I had to use the rest of my shooting to finish the job. This may have been my first mistake but at the end of Turn 1, even though he had more points on the board, I thought I was in a really good position. The Rets dropped the third and final WL which was pretty amazing. But after that they managed to fail 4 straight Ld checks (3 pin checks from Pathfinders and finally a break on the lone survivor). I wasted Celestine trying to snipe Eldrad (not realizing he was fortuned!) and in retrospect I should have taken out the damn Pathfinders. Eldrad killed her (Turn 3) and she didn't get back up. My last shot at pulling it out was dashed on Turn 4 when my Seraphim scattered 12" and mishapped by less than 1/2".
In the end I was bitterly disappointed that I couldn't bring more glory to the Sisters.
Sounds like my outings with the Saint either she rocks or shes like a rock... I just needed something more of a constant presence in the list so I opted for more DCAs instead of her. Great day one... and dont sweat it youll get em the next go round.
Dervos wrote:After thinking long and hard about 5 girl squads of doms vs 10 girls squads of doms I'm sticking with the 10 girls squads that use 4 melta guns.
I've been playing with the 10 woman Dominion squads for a while. I just went to a tourney and that re-emphasized how much I like them. Although I went with 3 melta, 1 flamer, and a combi-plasma on the VSS. I also added a Simulacrum to each squad which was pretty excellent for squeezing out every last bit of faith. I had re-rolls on the 4 squads who needed them the most. I can't think of a better way to spend 60 points.
If 6th Edition allows you to use your pistol Str in combat would you consider running more Seraphim? I think I would seriously look at putting 30 on the board...
Would that mean we get to double our attacks in CC also?
Spidey0804 wrote:If 6th Edition allows you to use your pistol Str in combat would you consider running more Seraphim? I think I would seriously look at putting 30 on the board...
Would that mean we get to double our attacks in CC also?
I don't speculate on 6th, since we don't really know anything.
What's strange to me is that GW itself as far as Ican tell, didn't acknowledge any progress or efforts on 6E did they? Wouldn't it be hilarious if they announcedtomorrow that they are going to "start development on 6E now". How many people would be upset then? Hheehehehe.
I say be careful what you wish for though. 8th Edition Fantasy as I have often said, tragically annihilated the Fantasy community anywhere near me. It was almost overnight. That was very disheartening. I have enough Fantasy to sell 6 armies worth and I just may. If my reaction is that strong, I dread ever feeling that way about 40K. They must tread lightly.
- Put 2-5 crusaders in your Conclave. At this point level 9 DCA will eat anything you put them against in probably one round. This puts your ass in the wind for shooting.
- Put a MM in one BSS squad for Objective Squatting duty.
- Drop the MB and Simulacrum to get TL-MM for the Immos. Use the 20 extra points to get dozers for the doms and Uriah. Gives you 5 to play with.
1: the DC can take a lot of fire power and i need anything that can take shooting away from my exocists
2: battle sisters cant hold objectives very well, so i just snatch them last moment and have them firing out of the hatch with meltas
3: TL and re roll wound heavy bolters are far better since they can pop light tanks and can kill a marine a turn, very useful
The dominions need a simulacrum because with TL flamers they can take out a squad of 30 boyz.
I need melta bombs to take out those odd landraiders and tanks when no one else is around apart from the doms.
The list looks good for 1500 points. Vehicle heavy armies are going to cry. Paladins will wet themselves. And so on.
The triple flamer idea on the Dominion is the only thing I always pause about. I see this a lot and so I am assuming these are good uses for that version. The outflanking element would make sense. But you can put three flamers in a BSS as easily as Dominion (albeit never twinlinked). So with armor being so predominant in heavy duty builds, i always wonder what the usefulness is of scouting Flamers to the front line before the enemy is out of its rhinos. Even if the Exorcists pop stuff for you, you cant predict which side of the vehicle the enemy may come out of. That little geometry problem is why I have always hesitated to do this.
But it's undefeated. Don't know how many games that is, but it sounds good. =).
I agree on the Crusaders. Just two of them would add immeasurably to the units durability.
I should have a kickstarter.
