Does Amazon payments offer buyer protection beyond what your credit card company would? Most credit card protection seems to be pretty comprehensive, I'd be more confident paying for something by cc (assuming my info is protected) than by Paypal for instance.

I'll actually further my commentary here:

I completely understand the viewpoint of anyone that refuses to back this company or this kickstarter. It's justified and reasonable.

However, I'm going to give this company as "2nd chance" as it were based on the fact that I DID receive all of my Banelegions/Meirce models following the Maelstrom fiasco.

The nice thing about Kickstarter is that if any information comes up that leads me to believe there is any duplicity within this 'new' venture, I can drop.

Would it be within the best interests of Mierce to absolve itself of any Rob Lane connection? Clearly. But so far I think they have been really cordial and forthcoming in the face of a lot of (well deserved) criticism. I think a bit more clarity on their organizational structure could help with their business transparency, but again, they don't owe that to a single person on a wargaming website...

What does encourage me, however, are things like:

1. Mierce/BaneLegions fulfilling all orders for their product associated with Maelstrom Orders

2. The incredibly quick turn around time for many of the pledge levels with this Kickstarter.

3. Their willingness to address comments both here and the KS.

With that in mind, I'd encourage anyone looking to back this KS to look at is like youre at a poker table. How much can you afford to lose? Which, honestly, is how any KS should be viewed.

 plastictrees wrote:
Does Amazon payments offer buyer protection beyond what your credit card company would? Most credit card protection seems to be pretty comprehensive, I'd be more confident paying for something by cc (assuming my info is protected) than by Paypal for instance.

Depends on the Credit Card Company really. Different companies (and different contract by the same company) offer different conditions.

But I did once claim back a two hundred GBP in hotel-costs through my CC when the hotel in question was playing dumb and non-cooperative. So I'd trust credit cards more than amazon or paypal by experience.

Since this will be running under UK law it's worth pointing out that you have NO credit card protection for purchaces under £100

For purchases £100+ the CC company is jointly liable so if you don't get your goods the CC company has to provide them or a refund.

This protection does extend to 'free gifts', so even if a pledge is not treated as a purchace you should still be covered

(T&C for foreign CCs may give you additional rights, but what I've stated above is the basic protection you'd get under UK law)

 cincydooley wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I have to admit, I'd love to pledge, but Kickstarter, from what I can gather, offers less protection than eBay, PayPal and certainly your credit card company.

Too nervous about this one - staying on the sidelines...

That's my big concern. They're already answering questions on the Forums, so that's....encouraging.

Their communication has been rather good since the Maelstrom mess. I had a large ($300+) Darklands/Banelegions order outstanding from the Maelstrom clearance sale, and every email I sent was answered within 24 hours. They contacted me and indicated that my package wouldnt be able to be sent until after the first of the year, and it posted on 1/15/13. I'll post again when I receive it, but things at least SEEM to be running smoother than when they were Maelstrom. Hopefully a more limited focus, with their own product, will allow them to conduct business more responsibly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:

grefven wrote:
I got a piece of the Maelstorm fire sales, and I got all that I bought from Mierce Miniatures a few months later. They've had excellent customer service in regards to me personally. Because of this I will put in an early pledge. Will it remain? Well, that will depend on the value of the KS in the end.

The quality of the miniatures are ace, and sculpted by the top people in the industry. Because of this alone I want them to succeed.

This exact thing happend with me. I did not receive the rest of the order from Malestrom.

Was it all Bane/Darklands stuff? If so, send them an email with the order number and see if you can get them to fulfill. I had to contact them about transferring my Maelstrom order to Mierce (stupid, since yes, they really are basically the same), but it did appear to get sorted out in the end. And if it doesnt, well, you could always pledge a dollar and post the story in the comment section and see if that doesnt expedite the customer service problem lol.

see im torn i really like the models and want to add to the ones i got afew years back , but im in two minds about it due to the history .

i think im going to sit on the fence untill i can see what im getting at the end of it and to see how the company handles themselves .

Free stuff at 15k
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mierceminiatures/darklands-a-world-of-war/posts/387844

Ways to get to 15k
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mierceminiatures/darklands-a-world-of-war/posts/387802

 plastictrees wrote:
Does Amazon payments offer buyer protection beyond what your credit card company would? Most credit card protection seems to be pretty comprehensive, I'd be more confident paying for something by cc (assuming my info is protected) than by Paypal for instance.

AFAIK, kickstarter doesn't offer any buyer protection either. It would be interesting to see if you could claim with a CC company in case of non delivery but I suspect not since it's not exactly a purchase agreement

Sining wrote:

 plastictrees wrote:
Does Amazon payments offer buyer protection beyond what your credit card company would? Most credit card protection seems to be pretty comprehensive, I'd be more confident paying for something by cc (assuming my info is protected) than by Paypal for instance.

AFAIK, kickstarter doesn't offer any buyer protection either. It would be interesting to see if you could claim with a CC company in case of non delivery but I suspect not since it's not exactly a purchase agreement

I'm pretty sure you could here in the UK as CC protection includes both goods and services (and if your pledge is not for goods, it's certainly for a 'service' ie doing what they say they will do leading to you getting goods). CC protection also covers 'free stuff' as in buy X and get Y free. If they deliver X but fold without giving you Y your CC company would have to provide it or appropriate cash compensation for you to buy an equivalent item yourself)..... As long as you'd spent £100+

In honor of their kickstarter I lit a $20 bill on fire. Figured it'd produce about the same result as backing.

yeah, because getting some miniatures is the same as burning money.. yeah right.

Guys, If you don't have ANYTHING to say outside of your ranting, please don't say anything at all.
There actually are some people who like/love the miniatures and have never ever had any problems with Mierce and/or are willing to leave the past behind.

A moderator also askes us to stay on topic. And the topic is the miniatures and the kickstarter.

RoninXiC wrote:


A moderator also askes us to stay on topic. And the topic is the miniatures and the kickstarter.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

Sining wrote:

 plastictrees wrote:
Does Amazon payments offer buyer protection beyond what your credit card company would? Most credit card protection seems to be pretty comprehensive, I'd be more confident paying for something by cc (assuming my info is protected) than by Paypal for instance.

AFAIK, kickstarter doesn't offer any buyer protection either. It would be interesting to see if you could claim with a CC company in case of non delivery but I suspect not since it's not exactly a purchase agreement

I'm pretty sure you could here in the UK as CC protection includes both goods and services (and if your pledge is not for goods, it's certainly for a 'service' ie doing what they say they will do leading to you getting goods). CC protection also covers 'free stuff' as in buy X and get Y free. If they deliver X but fold without giving you Y your CC company would have to provide it or appropriate cash compensation for you to buy an equivalent item yourself)..... As long as you'd spent £100+

So..... non UK people are hosed? Sounds familiar

RoninXiC wrote:
Yes Rob Lane is involved, he owns Mierce. They say that on the first page of the project.

And no, you are not justified to "warn" others, because you have NO knowledge of anything going wrong. You THINK you know something fishy, but have zero proof of anything.

Yes, we are justified to warn others that this company is owned by the same fellow that screwed over a lot of the community while at the helm of Maelstrom. Any company that he is involved with should be looked at very closely and avoided by those who don't wish to go through the hassle of possibly being ripped off again.

You've been probably "screwed" by Maelstrom, but that does not automatically mean Mierce is doing ANYTHING wrong this time.

Get it?

Mierce may not be doing anything wrong at this time, but it doesn't change the fact that the company is operated by somebody who ripped off a lot of people in the community. Who is to say that he won't do so again? I would not give a single dime to any business affiliated with a scammer/thief like Mr. Lane.

Get it?

RoninXiC wrote:
Free stuff at 15k
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mierceminiatures/darklands-a-world-of-war/posts/387844

Ways to get to 15k
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mierceminiatures/darklands-a-world-of-war/posts/387802

Hmm how big is that lion/manticore thing again?

It seems that is the best free thing of them all

And I'm still not used to their weird whelsh names. Had to compare the charts side by side to make sure which figure went where. I suppose thats me just being lazy though

Yeah, it's quite big. RRP is 45 pounds. It's a massive freebie.
http://www.radaddel.de/ungefelic-mantichora.html here are some pictures.

And yeah, their names are just gibberish... blabargho of the yrlaeßliche ... something like that.

RoninXiC wrote:
Yeah, it's quite big. RRP is 45 pounds. It's a massive freebie.
http://www.radaddel.de/ungefelic-mantichora.html here are some pictures.

Wow yea he is big. Honestly he makes some of the other frees look a tad disappointing. The dyndraig just get a random trooper!

The Manticore is quite a large free mini as opposed to the other free minis. Though they are all balanced £/$ wise. The Ysian Brute Kindred was actually a little under the other Monstrous Infantry options on a £/$ value (for production) and this option will enable us to bring them into line with the others. The Brutes are a little bit smaller than the other Monstrous Infantry hence ther lower RRP and production costs so we can afford to add a little more to their option to bring parity. The Manticore is also one of the cheaper beasts for us to produce to we have a little more 'wiggle room' with him.

And of course we always wanted to be able to add a beast to that kindred so the Drune-Goaders have something to whip and prod into action (as well as the dim-witted Brutes that is!)

And hey, it's a good deal!

Glad to see Mierce Miniatures involved in this thread again, you have many miles to cover in order to rebuilt your credibility.
I think transparency is good for everyone sake and while under normal situations your comment regarding that your business is your business makes sense its a bit unrealistic under the current circumstances, I mean I really don't need any proofs to make my own judgement here, but many may think differently and they are asking for further clarifications beyond the normal expectations, cannot blame them.

Also IIRC there was a interview with Maelstorm owner hinting there was interest on doing banelegions KS?... so this KS is just another fruit from the same person?... Please correct if I'm wrong I'm probably being unfair here, but again is a good chance for transparent debates.

I'm wondering something will you guys be at salute?

We planned a KS a long time ago, but waited until we had the starter sets and Quickstarter rules to fund rather than just stick a load of minis up for the sake of it. We could eventually fund the production ourselves of course. But this gets the starter rules and sets released several months quicker and allows people to play games with their minis sooner and get into the game system.

We don't plan any shows first half of 2013 (maybe even the whole year). The KS will take up a lot of our time and we're a small team. If we over stretch we could fail. We'll be prioritising our customer, retailer and KS orders until we've reached fulfillment. A lot of our retailers attend shows and conventions and it does save us a hell of a lot of time and logistics!

 kenshin620 wrote:

RoninXiC wrote:
Free stuff at 15k
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mierceminiatures/darklands-a-world-of-war/posts/387844

Ways to get to 15k
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mierceminiatures/darklands-a-world-of-war/posts/387802

Hmm how big is that lion/manticore thing again?

It seems that is the best free thing of them all

Yeah, the brutes get a really boss $60+ manticorel and the trolls get a $15 viking (who looks nice, but isnt as impressive). Seemed weird to me too, but maybe everything evens out in the end.

And I'm still not used to their weird whelsh names. Had to compare the charts side by side to make sure which figure went where. I suppose thats me just being lazy though

Yeah, I had the same issue w Tre's Red Box kickstarter. My eyes glaze over and it all becomes gibberish.

Yeah, I had the same issue w Tre's Red Box kickstarter. My eyes glaze over and it all becomes gibberish.

As a UK resident I'll let you in on a secret, it's already gibberish!

It's a secret conspiracy by the Welsh to achieve independence from the UK by bankrupting central government through the nefarious use of extra road signs with thousands of unnecessary letters.

I'm soo getting flamed by the Welsh now.

But it's ok, nobody will be able to read or pronounce what they write!

Well anyways Mierce, if you're listening think you could make the stretch goals appear more obvious where they go? Maybe color code or something

I own several Bane legion etc models. Love the sculpts and the the casts have been pretty damn awesome (except they cannot cast bases for gak).

I want to pledge on this. I really do. My wallet twitches and I have a filled out the screen several times. I just cannot bring myself to hit that final button. I just cannot convince myself I am going to see anything from this once the money has left my account.

I cannot be the only one who thinks like this surely?

How does Mierce manage to repair their reputation (other than Mr. Lane never having anything to do with them ever again)? I am not sure what would make me hit that final button.

Mierce Miniatures wrote:
We planned a KS a long time ago, but waited until we had the starter sets and Quickstarter rules to fund rather than just stick a load of minis up for the sake of it. We could eventually fund the production ourselves of course. But this gets the starter rules and sets released several months quicker and allows people to play games with their minis sooner and get into the game system.

We don't plan any shows first half of 2013 (maybe even the whole year). The KS will take up a lot of our time and we're a small team. If we over stretch we could fail. We'll be prioritising our customer, retailer and KS orders until we've reached fulfillment. A lot of our retailers attend shows and conventions and it does save us a hell of a lot of time and logistics!

Fair enough and good luck with your project.

This KS provides a good KS. I guess it was a good thing I didn't bite on their post-Christmas sale. I can get the items cheaper here and provide to the KS in the same time. Win-win.

 kenshin620 wrote:
Well anyways Mierce, if you're listening think you could make the stretch goals appear more obvious where they go? Maybe color code or something

They have little faction badges by each mini/unit.

I've pledged. I'm not sure if it's a serious pledge or a curiosity pledge, I guess I've got a month to work that out.

The whole Maelstrom fiasco aside, I bought a Terror of Fortiau when they very first came out and I have to say it is one of the best models I have ever owned in over 27 years in this hobby. The only thing upsetting me on this KS is I paid full price for a lot if these miniatures from Maelstrom before their issues started.
I am going to risk a punt on this KS, just not sure on which fraction and a bit of information on game play would not go amiss.

 plastictrees wrote:

 kenshin620 wrote:
Well anyways Mierce, if you're listening think you could make the stretch goals appear more obvious where they go? Maybe color code or something

They have little faction badges by each mini/unit.

Ah oh course I could miss that

Sigh I think I need to buy new glasses

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Since this will be running under UK law it's worth pointing out that you have NO credit card protection for purchaces under £100

That doesn't mean your card company won't claim it back for you. Mine refunded me the £35 Maelstrom owed me.

Seeing as how I love the Dragon inspired mini's I think I'll bite the bullet. It's bluudy pricey though as I would want the 150 level pledge for 2x Monstrous. Dragon's and Lizards all the way. Then there's going to be all the stretch goals - already pretty much all of the ones posted look awesome.

For the naming here's how I've (sorta) been converting in my head:

Angelcynn - Men
Ysians - Barbarians
Brythoniaid - Dragons
Fomoraic (Sronax) - Rhino's
Fomoraic (Tarvax) - Mino's
Kthones - Lizards (Gorgons)
Ysian Brutes - Franken's
Trolls - Trolls (Wow, one makes sense!)

Doesn't help that I've been refreshing KS trying to catch when Tre's part 2 goes up either. If I don't pledge to something soon I'll go mad.

On the other hand I also have over $1000 worth of mini's yet to arrive from Mantic, Reaper, Tre, Coolmini etc. I'm not even sure where I'm going to store it all or how the wife will react once she actually sees the mountains of mini's in person and not just as figures in a spreadsheet.

So haven't pledged yet but am very on the fence. Will probably be decided by stretch goals / closer to the deadline.

Pretty tempted by this... some of the minis really are gorgeous! Not to mention, as a Welsh speaker, even some of the names and such are damned amusing 'dyndraig' is just cute lol! On the other hand though, the whole connection with Maelstrom is definitely off-putting.

Definitely one to keep tabs on, methinks.

Oh man I want me some Minotaurs!!! Plus the dude on the bear..the snake woman... Oh God my wallet!!!

 Surloch wrote:

For the naming here's how I've (sorta) been converting in my head:

Angelcynn - Men
Ysians - Barbarians
Brythoniaid - Dragons
Fomoraic (Sronax) - Rhino's
Fomoraic (Tarvax) - Mino's
Kthones - Lizards (Gorgons)
Ysian Brutes - Franken's
Trolls - Trolls (Wow, one makes sense!)
.

Thanks for list

Just remember recently in the British press there was a case that the credit card provider did not have to provide the chargeback service for goods bought through amazon. This was because amazon took the payment for a third party acting as an agent, because there was no contract directly with the supplier then charge back protection wasn't afforded. So in this case where you are going through an agent (kick starter in this case) and not dealing directly with the retailer then I doubt you have chargeback protection in this case. So by all means take the risk but if it doesn't pan out be prepared to not be able to get a chargeback from your provider either.

Why are the names impossible to pronounce? Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaahk!

Curious to why there seems to be a bit of multi race in factions?

like the Trolls and Norse

Wolf-beast and whatever human race/faction it was called. Too many names way too complicated.

Speak MURICAN!

Well they hit 15k so theres a 25k goal up

edit nvm I am reading these wrong. Guess theres no free things this time around?

Looks more like opportunity-to-buy-at-a-discount - Shaaroc, for instance, is listed as £53.99 on Mierce's site, so you're getting ~£14 off, as well as the free shipping.

You are correct. There are no freebies for the 25k marker. I am backing this Kickstarter albeit very cautiously I am optimistic that Mierce Miniatures will deliver their goods.

I am just torn on what 2 starter sets....

Angelcynn(Men) or Ysians(Barbarians) for my humans and Brythoniaid(Dragon-lings) or Trolls for my monsters.

I really like their take on Trolls (they look like a mix between an Ork and a Troll. Troks) Yet their Brythoniaid are very unique and trump any other take on dragon-lings I have ever seen. It would be great to have a look at the rules as well, I am really on the fence about if it is just cool minis or a fun skirmish game.

 Dysartes wrote:
Looks more like opportunity-to-buy-at-a-discount - Shaaroc, for instance, is listed as £53.99 on Mierce's site, so you're getting ~£14 off, as well as the free shipping.

True I suppose. With those price estimates in USD they even beat out Warstore in price by a good $20 or so (though outside UK you have to pay 7 quid shipping, not too bad but I do hope people are reading that)

Though since it is a stretchgoal technically you cant get them until the stretchgoal has been passed (so its a bit like KoD except they already tell you the stretch. Wierd...). Though I doubt they wont make it, even with all the bad press the train just keeps on going it seems.

And speaking of kod, I must say some of these beasts might actually fit quite well with them if you're going for a Dark Souls vibe

Their next stretch goal needs to be a sprue of junk so I can "bane sack" my other minis. I'm tired of poor neutered werewolves, beast men and other critters.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
Their next stretch goal needs to be a sprue of junk so I can "bane sack" my other minis. I'm tired of poor neutered werewolves, beast men and other critters.

I own Galagaak and he definitely has a giant pair just hangin' in the wind, blowin' in the breeze, droppin' like they're hot.

Hm, I think they should also post the prices in €.

And I am wondering how our German shops that distribute/sell those minis will react to those discounts. At least on is already not amused.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Hm, I think they should also post the prices in €.

And I am wondering how our German shops that distribute/sell those minis will react to those discounts. At least on is already not amused.

always a risk when you discount something already available at retail...

but then again if this works they'll get some free advertising for the range so it might balance out
(they could also refuse to re-stock anything mierce offer via the KS)

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Hm, I think they should also post the prices in €.

And I am wondering how our German shops that distribute/sell those minis will react to those discounts. At least on is already not amused.

Isn't that how it's been with every preorder/KS? Didn't seem to stop Dreadball, that sold out in retail in a few days, etc.

They're releasing a game. After the KS all these people with models are playing the game and want to buy more models. They go and buy them from their retail shop.

 fullheadofhair wrote:
I own several Bane legion etc models. Love the sculpts and the the casts have been pretty damn awesome (except they cannot cast bases for gak).

I want to pledge on this. I really do. My wallet twitches and I have a filled out the screen several times. I just cannot bring myself to hit that final button. I just cannot convince myself I am going to see anything from this once the money has left my account.

I cannot be the only one who thinks like this surely?

How does Mierce manage to repair their reputation (other than Mr. Lane never having anything to do with them ever again)? I am not sure what would make me hit that final button.

No, I'm in the same boat. It's just the sort of thing I'd normally jump for, and if news comes out that their ties with Maelstrom have been cut, I'll probably do just that.

 Piston Honda wrote:
Why are the names impossible to pronounce? Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaahk!

Funnily enough, Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaahk the Pugnacious, Fiendish Bhogeymhaan of Greater Snoring, is the next stretch goal.

 Elemental wrote:

 fullheadofhair wrote:
I own several Bane legion etc models. Love the sculpts and the the casts have been pretty damn awesome (except they cannot cast bases for gak).

I want to pledge on this. I really do. My wallet twitches and I have a filled out the screen several times. I just cannot bring myself to hit that final button. I just cannot convince myself I am going to see anything from this once the money has left my account.

I cannot be the only one who thinks like this surely?

How does Mierce manage to repair their reputation (other than Mr. Lane never having anything to do with them ever again)? I am not sure what would make me hit that final button.

No, I'm in the same boat. It's just the sort of thing I'd normally jump for, and if news comes out that their ties with Maelstrom have been cut, I'll probably do just that.

This Kickstarter is the first step towards repairing that reputation I'm guessing.
Their ties with Maelstrom are not going to be cut any further. Rob Lane is the owner/director of Mierce, he's not going anywhere, he just won't be the face of the company any time soon.

I'm wondering if we're going to see any greens at this point or if we're already at the concept art only stage?

 fullheadofhair wrote:
I own several Bane legion etc models. Love the sculpts and the the casts have been pretty damn awesome (except they cannot cast bases for gak).

I want to pledge on this. I really do. My wallet twitches and I have a filled out the screen several times. I just cannot bring myself to hit that final button. I just cannot convince myself I am going to see anything from this once the money has left my account.

I cannot be the only one who thinks like this surely?

How does Mierce manage to repair their reputation (other than Mr. Lane never having anything to do with them ever again)? I am not sure what would make me hit that final button.

Same here

I lost about 100 GBP with Maelstrom Games.

Is the person behind Mierce the same person behind Maelstrom Games or was he just one guy distributing the miniatures? Who sculpts the miniatures? Who are the creative minds behind Badlands? What's their take in/on the Maelstrom fiasco?

How sure are you guys they will deliver? If it's a totally different person behind the scenes I would give it a chance because those miniatures sure are ace.

Funny, I gained about 20 gbp with maelstrom, I ordered some forged in battle stuff, they sent me the wrong stuff,i told em and they let me keep it and sent me the wrong stuff AGAIN. I was annoyed but gave up since thats when they did their warehouse sale thing... I had use for the wrong stuff anyway, I just preferred the right stuff lol.

To their defense, the stuff was listed incorrectly on the website, I probably would have caught it if I had payed more attention.

 devilution wrote:

 fullheadofhair wrote:
I own several Bane legion etc models. Love the sculpts and the the casts have been pretty damn awesome (except they cannot cast bases for gak).

I want to pledge on this. I really do. My wallet twitches and I have a filled out the screen several times. I just cannot bring myself to hit that final button. I just cannot convince myself I am going to see anything from this once the money has left my account.

I cannot be the only one who thinks like this surely?

How does Mierce manage to repair their reputation (other than Mr. Lane never having anything to do with them ever again)? I am not sure what would make me hit that final button.

Same here

I lost about 100 GBP with Maelstrom Games.

Is the person behind Mierce the same person behind Maelstrom Games or was he just one guy distributing the miniatures? Who sculpts the miniatures? Who are the creative minds behind Badlands? What's their take in/on the Maelstrom fiasco?

How sure are you guys they will deliver? If it's a totally different person behind the scenes I would give it a chance because those miniatures sure are ace.

The owner of the company is the same guy behind Maelstrom. It is being managed by a different fellow who has a few posts under the name Mierce Miniatures.

I am not sure they will deliver but I have faith that Mierce Miniatures wants to create a new reputation and find their niche in the miniature market which I think they have. I truly believe that they will deliver their products from the Kickstarter. If not I will eat these words, turn them into rage and unleash hell

Rob Lane owned and ran Maelstrom

Rob Lane owns and runs Mierce, it's also his creative mind behind the game (not sure if he's developed the rules or somebody else has) and minis line

there are also (clearly) a talented sculptors and casters involved as some freelance (artists/sculptors), some in house (casters/admin etc)

Will they deliver ? My guess is probably,

I think they're higher risk than a new CMON KS,

probably lower risk than an complete unknown in the industry just starting up

Would I back them ? I don't know,

I like some of the minis (Trolls & Draconics), but Rob Lane is an issue and i have many KS projects on the way, and little or no spare cash

Guess, I still don't get what a kickstarter is: Why are existing old products "stretch goals"? Will they be retracted from the market, if they don't reach that goal?

Yeah...

And I heard CMoN would make a Confrontation KS, so maybe ill save up some cash incase it's coming this year.

Maybe after the Mierce KS is a success and they regained a good reputation I can still get the minis I like ^^

 Kroothawk wrote:
Guess, I still don't get what a kickstarter is: Why are existing old products "stretch goals"? Will they be retracted from the market, if they don't reach that goal?

They are going to be discounted when reaching the goal. But I do agree it's a bit strange But other KS do the same, if we reach goal XX you get extra stuff (even if they are already on the market ). Maybe they will add full fledge rules instead of quickplay rules when they reach enough.

@devilution yes confrontation Phoenix should be this year, everyone who backed guilds of cadwallon will be getting the rules alpha for it as a download as a kind of preview. Whilst coolmini seem incapable of delivering on time you will definitely get something whereas with this kick starter there is a good chance you won't so save your money for confrontation Phoenix.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Guess, I still don't get what a kickstarter is: Why are existing old products "stretch goals"? Will they be retracted from the market, if they don't reach that goal?

Yeah, existing products as a stretch goal is pretty silly, imo... for any company running a KS, let alone one that formerly failed to deliver existing products. So they need more money to deliver what they've already offered... sounds familiar

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
@devilution yes confrontation Phoenix should be this year, everyone who backed guilds of cadwallon will be getting the rules alpha for it as a download as a kind of preview. Whilst coolmini seem incapable of delivering on time you will definitely get something whereas with this kick starter there is a good chance you won't so save your money for confrontation Phoenix.

This simply isn't true. Zombiecide came early.

Sedition Wars was late due to a pretty unforseeable issue with a fraudulent printer.

I still don't get the CMoN hate. You're entitled to your own opinion, just not your own facts.

Hmm yes I must agree that stretch makes not too much sense. A "proper way" imo to do add on stretch is to reveal it AFTER you pass it. Hope they learn to keep that in mind (yes

Though I guess my naivety makes me think that its a decent add on. Sure you can buy them now but as pointed out earlier these guys can be bought for quite a decent discount.

Isn't that how it's been with every preorder/KS? Didn't seem to stop Dreadball, that sold out in retail in a few days, etc.

They're releasing a game. After the KS all these people with models are playing the game and want to buy more models. They go and buy them from their retail shop.

Nope the other KS released the product involved in the KS after the KS. The Mierce miniatures have been offered in stores for quite some time now.
And the shops were not informed about the KS and got no discount when buying them. So, quite some shops are now facing customers that won´t buy the minis from them because they can get them cheaper from the KS.

@Cmon Hate
As soon as a company reaches a certain size it becomes the evil empire, no matter what they do. Internet logic.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:

Isn't that how it's been with every preorder/KS?

Nope the other KS released the product involved in the KS after the KS. The Mierce miniatures have been offered in stores for quite some time now.
And the shops were not informed about the KS and got no discount when buying them. So, quite some shops are now facing customers that won´t buy the minis from them because they can get them cheaper from the KS.

Exactly... a stretch goal for a product that they're already selling is something we've yet to see (afaik). It's pretty poor form, imo, and highlights the danger here. These people already demonstrated that they're willing to take money to spend on past obligations, and making a stretch goal for something they've already released is a telling reminder of that- or possibly even a repeat of it, depending on how things end up going for them.

The CMON hate comes from the director having previously ripped off a ton of gamers.

David Doust as New Wave Miniatures/Games ripped off scores and scores of gamers. Then he founded CMON after stealing a ton of money from gamers.

But now CMON is a reputable company despite being run by a scam artist.

Sorta like the Maelstrom/Mierce thing.

Rob Lane is the new David Doust.

Back on topic, TBH I personally don't see the problem with a stretch goal adding a pre-existing product as a freebie onto the starter sets which don't contain pre-existing product.

 fullheadofhair wrote:
I own several Bane legion etc models. Love the sculpts and the the casts have been pretty damn awesome (except they cannot cast bases for gak).

I want to pledge on this. I really do. My wallet twitches and I have a filled out the screen several times. I just cannot bring myself to hit that final button. I just cannot convince myself I am going to see anything from this once the money has left my account.

I cannot be the only one who thinks like this surely?

How does Mierce manage to repair their reputation (other than Mr. Lane never having anything to do with them ever again)? I am not sure what would make me hit that final button.

Honestly, if Mierce and Lane really wanted forgiveness from the consumer end of the community, they'd contact all the people who were ripped off by Maelstrom's non-fulfillment of orders and offer Mierce Miniatures credit for the same amounts of money. It wouldn't do much for the supply chain end who got burned, but this is the only way I could see them having a mostly-successful mea culpa on a larger scale then their existing fans, apologists and those who don't care that the same people ripped a lot of our community off not 4 months ago. ("because, you know, it didn't happen to me!")




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kenshin620 wrote:

Hmm how big is that lion/manticore thing again?
It seems that is the best free thing of them all

I just had a look at the KS, and I'd warn people to be wary about what they expect to be their "freebies".

Anybody who has pledged for a Starter Set in any form or combinatoin will receive one of the following miniatures, for free:

Please note that these are "fixed" for the Starter Set you want - so, for example, if you go for the Angelcynn Infantry Starter Set, you'll get Meloda.

Going by their wording (and they're clearly using words-as-written given their Maelstrom disclaimer about being a legally separate entity), then if you pledge for multiple starter sets, you may find you only get one model, and not multiples. It also says that the model you receive will be tied to your starter faction, so don't be surprised if you receive the man-sized "Kernuor, Ysian Drune" instead of the big Manticore model.

There's no specific wording that says if you pledge for multiple starter sets that you'll get multiple freebies nor does it specifically state that you'll get to choose your free model from one on that list. It does say that they're "fixed" but it doesn't say which one the Manticore is fixed for. (nor does it for any of the figures that belong to the same factions, excepting Meloda).

You'd hope these things would be clarified. Not in the comments but on the KS front page. They've already used weasel words to disassociate themselves from Maelstrom. If I were even slightly disposed to pledge for this kickstarter, I'd want to see that clarified in stone on the front page, not buried in the comments, and you guys who are actually going in should be asking for the same.

Caveat Emptor. Indeed.

It does say which one the Manticore is fixed for, the Ysian Brutes. I'd say that's pretty clear. How many free minis you get at the multiple starter set levels is unclear however.


Just out of curiosity scipio, do you feel as strongly about anyone that supports CMoN and their various projects?

It's not unclear.
You can pledge as many sets as you want and they said in the comments, that you get the freebie for EVERY SET YOU ORDER.

RoninXiC wrote:
It's not unclear.
You can pledge as many sets as you want and they said in the comments, that you get the freebie for EVERY SET YOU ORDER.

Sounds like something that would be worth making crystal clear in the next update, and on the KS main page.

I don't see any problems of using existing miniatures as a stretch goal. When Kingdom Death did it there weren't much complaining about it.

Also, I'd have to agree that it is pretty clear what freebie miniature you will get and that they are tired to what starter set you are chosing. But I also agree that it isn't clear that you will receive a freebie for every starter set you chose. It has been stated by MM a few times that one freebie for every starterset in the comments, and it is pretty darn easy just to read the MM comments so you dont have to bother reading all the others if you wanted to see the "official statement".

KD miniatures were limited runs back then and already sold out.

These miniatures are sold by shops right now.

I'm contemplating going back to my position of 'what does Watchdog have to say about that?'

grefven wrote:
I don't see any problems of using existing miniatures as a stretch goal. When Kingdom Death did it there weren't much complaining about it.

Also, I'd have to agree that it is pretty clear what freebie miniature you will get and that they are tired to what starter set you are chosing. But I also agree that it isn't clear that you will receive a freebie for every starter set you chose. It has been stated by MM a few times that one freebie for every starterset in the comments, and it is pretty darn easy just to read the MM comments so you dont have to bother reading all the others if you wanted to see the "official statement".

You're a bit of an apologist for MM/MG aren't you? When people suggest that maybe they should put some info on the front page to make out clearer for backers, your response is to tell people to go search it out themselves. Tell me, are you a Wyrd fan as well?

Plus KD stretch goals were the models produced in plastic instead of resin iirc. Are those stretch goal models going to be plastic as well? Or will they be exactly the same as what's in stores now?

 judgedoug wrote:
The CMON hate comes from the director having previously ripped off a ton of gamers.

David Doust as New Wave Miniatures/Games ripped off scores and scores of gamers. Then he founded CMON after stealing a ton of money from gamers.

But now CMON is a reputable company despite being run by a scam artist.

Sorta like the Maelstrom/Mierce thing.

Rob Lane is the new David Doust.

Back on topic, TBH I personally don't see the problem with a stretch goal adding a pre-existing product as a freebie onto the starter sets which don't contain pre-existing product.

Yep! Strange how gamers have such short memories. Both situations do share lots of similarities.

 Compel wrote:
I'm contemplating going back to my position of 'what does Watchdog have to say about that?'

Out of interest, what is being defined as "that" in this particular case?

 plastictrees wrote:
It does say which one the Manticore is fixed for, the Ysian Brutes. I'd say that's pretty clear. How many free minis you get at the multiple starter set levels is unclear however.


Just out of curiosity scipio, do you feel as strongly about anyone that supports CMoN and their various projects?

Actually, I just got filled in on CMON/New Wave about two days ago, since I was inactive in wargaming for several years when it all happened. I asked in another thread here and got a PM that explained what happened. It was a bit of a surprise, actually. Though I'm not especially fond of apologists of fanbois for any company. It did make me suppose that perhaps that's one reason they've been partnering with people like McVey or Soda Pop who have otherwise good names - to dilute the NWMO thing. It certainly makes me even less likely to back any CMON projects, and finding it out means I won't be buying anything from their store. It does make me wonder why people like McVey have partnered with them, though. Honestly though, I'm still processing to an extent, since I've already gone in for a couple of CMON Kickstarters (expecting SW in a couple of weeks) and bought SDE at retail.

I've just figured out what you mean by it saying which figure it is. I thought the titles in parenthesis underneath their names were the figures' titles/descriptions - not which unit they're attached to. Still, the "free miniature" thing needs to be clarified, I think you'd agree.

But hey, to turn the question - do you think what happened with MG and the results with MM are okay? Like, an alright thing to do? No big deal? Carry on, business as usual?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RoninXiC wrote:
It's not unclear.
You can pledge as many sets as you want and they said in the comments, that you get the freebie for EVERY SET YOU ORDER.

Anybody who has pledged for a Starter Set in any form or combinatoin will receive one of the following miniatures, for free:

That can legitimately be read in two ways. As such, they need to clarify it on the main page. feth the comments.

grefven wrote:
I don't see any problems of using existing miniatures as a stretch goal. When Kingdom Death did it there weren't much complaining about it.

As has already been stated, it was a goal to tool them in plastic. What is the goal with these existing miniatures, that as far as I can tell are being offered exactly as they are currently for sale, only for less?

Also, pointing out the flaws with CMON doesn't necessarily help Mierce's case. As we were both commenting on KD:M, you might remember I dropped out of that one when I found out CMON was involved... I'm not saying they're like Mierce, but judgedoug did PM me some links yesterday which are pretty crazy which I knew nothing about (showing how the founder got his start, which is somewhat analogous to the founder of Mierce).

In the end, if I'm going to give dollars well in advance via Kickstarter, I basically have to be in love with the company at this point . That is mostly limited to smaller ventures for really exciting projects. CMON selling things they'd make anyway is working well via KS, but also earning them some ire... so they may not be the best company to compare to from a public relations standpoint.

Hmm interesting post from TMP that seemed worth sharing

Manflesh 19 Jan 2013 3:39 a.m. PST

Trouble, is, some of the models on this kickstarter aren't due for release until September. There's no guarantee that this model line will even be owned by Mierce Miniatures after all that time. Maybe another "completely separate legal entity" will have absolutely legally acquired the range by then.

Leigh

 scipio.au wrote:

 plastictrees wrote:
It does say which one the Manticore is fixed for, the Ysian Brutes. I'd say that's pretty clear. How many free minis you get at the multiple starter set levels is unclear however.


Just out of curiosity scipio, do you feel as strongly about anyone that supports CMoN and their various projects?

Actually, I just got filled in on CMON/New Wave about two days ago, since I was inactive in wargaming for several years when it all happened. I asked in another thread here and got a PM that explained what happened. It was a bit of a surprise, actually. Though I'm not especially fond of apologists of fanbois for any company. It did make me suppose that perhaps that's one reason they've been partnering with people like McVey or Soda Pop who have otherwise good names - to dilute the NWMO thing. It certainly makes me even less likely to back any CMON projects, and finding it out means I won't be buying anything from their store. It does make me wonder why people like McVey have partnered with them, though. Honestly though, I'm still processing to an extent, since I've already gone in for a couple of CMON Kickstarters (expecting SW in a couple of weeks) and bought SDE at retail.

I've just figured out what you mean by it saying which figure it is. I thought the titles in parenthesis underneath their names were the figures' titles/descriptions - not which unit they're attached to. Still, the "free miniature" thing needs to be clarified, I think you'd agree.

But hey, to turn the question - do you think what happened with MG and the results with MM are okay? Like, an alright thing to do? No big deal? Carry on, business as usual?

Re-reading my question to you, it sounds like I'm being a smart ass, but I was genuinely interested.
I was out of the loop for New Wave as well. I asked about it in a CMoN/Confrontation revival thread a couple of years ago and got yelled at for being an apologist so I'm still not entirely clear what happened.
Do I think what happened with MG is ok? No. Not at all. I also don't think that Rob Lane is a serial scam artist. Sometimes things start to fall apart, you try to keep them together, but that just makes the collapse all the more spectacular when it does happen. I guess that is me literally being an apologist now, which isn't my intent. If there was any attempt at all to reach out to the people that lost out to MG, I would be pledging to this with no qualms whatsoever. As it is my pledge is qualm laden and unjustifiable beyond the fact that he hired some of the best sculptors in the world to produce some great models. I don't know if that will be enough to get me to keep my pledge in to the end.

Well there has been some attemp tp reach out to customers who lost out

Mierce (have said) they will fulfill all orders for banelegions/darklands figures that maelstrom failed to supply

(this seems genuine as I've seen reports of folk getting them).

They are not fulfilling stuff customers didn't get from any other (3rd party) range

whether this is enough of a 'good will' gesture ? You have to make up your own mind

Now I'm curious, can someone PM what's the deal with CMON?

As for things falling apart, you kind of missed the part where MG took money for orders of items that weren't in stock and which they knew weren't going to be come into stock during the month of Oct-Nov. There's a difference between things imploding eventually and just screwing people over. I have somewhat intimate knowledge of things collapsing as it is. Years back when my dad used to manufacture in Malaysia, the factory burned down one day and suddenly, boom, most of the money was gone. He could have declared bankruptcy to avoid a lot of liabilities but he didn't. He borrowed money from most of his friends, paid back people he owed. He even went into debt to make sure his foreign workers could have tickets home instead of just deserting him. Same issue of companies going near bankrupt except one stiffs everybody while the other doesn't.

Mierce is doing a Kickstarter ? people are ' investing?

True, David Doust made some real bad desicions and got the deserved flak for it, but he has worked hard and improved his reputation. He got way mor flak than Mierce/Mealstrom Games has ever gotten.

Today CMON is one of the companies I would rather put my money with than with other companies. Rhey worked hard for it and deserved it.

The New Wave debacle is a thing of several years back.

The MG thing is quite fresh. And Mierce will have to go the same stony road David had to take untill they will be trusted.

What really concerns me ist that Mierce already shows signs of not caring for its distribution partners buy offering discounts for minis they do have sold to them. David back then really tried to act in a better way back then. He not immediatly did start antagonize others.

Sining wrote:
Now I'm curious, can someone PM what's the deal with CMON?

As for things falling apart, you kind of missed the part where MG took money for orders of items that weren't in stock and which they knew weren't going to be come into stock during the month of Oct-Nov. There's a difference between things imploding eventually and just screwing people over. I have somewhat intimate knowledge of things collapsing as it is. Years back when my dad used to manufacture in Malaysia, the factory burned down one day and suddenly, boom, most of the money was gone. He could have declared bankruptcy to avoid a lot of liabilities but he didn't. He borrowed money from most of his friends, paid back people he owed. He even went into debt to make sure his foreign workers could have tickets home instead of just deserting him. Same issue of companies going near bankrupt except one stiffs everybody while the other doesn't.

I didn't miss that. Again, I'm not apologising for anything Rob Lane did. I'm not on his or MGs or Mierce's 'side'. I'm trying to describe a certain level of empathy for being on the precipice of that situation, not any sympathy or understanding for how it was handled.

I think most people's sympathy was burned away by him doing what I described above.

Sining wrote:
I think most people's sympathy was burned away by him doing what I described above.

That....is what I'm saying.

 reds8n wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

I think people have been warned though, so this constant endless conversation over the whole issue is beginning to get dull.

Indeed.

People have a right to have raised concerns, such concerns are now here for people to read and make their own decisions.
let's stick to news and info about new releases and pre orders.

IF there winds up being ... complications.. I'm sure there'll be a discussion about it as/when.

Just quoting this.

Yep, it would make sense (and be more on-topic) to talk about the kickstarter- i.e, the fact that they're offering up items as stretch goals that are already for sale (although this has been pretty thoroughly covered by now).

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Well there has been some attemp tp reach out to customers who lost out

Mierce (have said) they will fulfill all orders for banelegions/darklands figures that maelstrom failed to supply

(this seems genuine as I've seen reports of folk getting them).

They are not fulfilling stuff customers didn't get from any other (3rd party) range

whether this is enough of a 'good will' gesture ? You have to make up your own mind

This is true, but it's also the easiest part of the "easy fix" - and let's not forget that the figures were all actually paid for, and recently at that. I'm actually not being snarky when I suggest that they should give Mierce Credit to all MG customers who lost out for the amount they lost. If they did so it would make a huge difference in changing people's opinions to consider them more trustworthy. Note that this isn't me "fishing for some freebies" (of things I, you know, paid for) - I got most of my money refunded, and only lost out for a relatively small amount that I'd missed with their constant merging and splitting of orders. Since RobLaneCo is now in the position of asking people to trust them enough to send them money with a new business and Kickstarter, people have to be able to, you know, trust them. Things like that TMP post would make me a little skittish, even though it's just a random post on the internet, it's still something to consider.

With the whole thing about existing product up on a Kickstarter for cheap, I can see why retailers would be pissed off, but a lot of customers simply aren't aware of this sort of thing, and as I said in another thread (Red Box?) that it's basically just the same as a one-off discount sale (with months to wait for your toys) - so I think retailer tears for this sort of thing are a little over-dramatic (excepting perhaps online-only stores). The other thing is that the existing figures here are being used as the core of new units - expanded around one or two existing models - and as paid add-ons and bonuses. Not that different to the Mongoose/Dredd kickstarter from a few months ago.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RiTides wrote:
Yep, it would make sense (and be more on-topic) to talk about the kickstarter- i.e, the fact that they're offering up items as stretch goals that are already for sale (although this has been pretty thoroughly covered by now).

Let's be realistic though - all Kickstarter threads talk in circles, have both positive and negative discussion and don't need mods to handhold that discussion when it's being civil. I'd hate to see this thread become over-moderated compared to other Kickstarter threads simply because we have a few people here are over-sensitive and don't want anything slightly negative spoken about Lane. Everyone here is being civil. There's far harsher things being said in the GoA thread right now about Rick Priestly - of all people.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Well there has been some attemp tp reach out to customers who lost out

Mierce (have said) they will fulfill all orders for banelegions/darklands figures that maelstrom failed to supply

(this seems genuine as I've seen reports of folk getting them).

They are not fulfilling stuff customers didn't get from any other (3rd party) range

whether this is enough of a 'good will' gesture ? You have to make up your own mind

That's an interesting one, though: I've gotten a shipping notification for such a package from mierce nov. 27th, when it still wasn't there jan 8th I was told to wait until the 15th (really? 28days etc I know but even with the holidays that seems like a stretch...), when I emailed the 15th I was told the mold for one of those models was just being remade after they broke the previous one - that wasn't something to get all too confident about... okay, I've since gotten a shipping confirmation on that replacement package but that's just an email with no tracking... I'm kinda nervous on this one TBH...

Last post about it for the people who were curious:

New Wave Mail Order was run by David Doust. From 2000-2004 New Wave would offer things for sale that weren't in stock, overcharge credit cards, never ship product, and constantly lie about it (to the tune of having lied about someone dying three times in a year to delay shipping product). The business had literally hundreds of BBB complaints against them. Eventually Doust was investigated by the Georgia State Attorney, and eventually some customers got some money back. It was incredibly bad during the litigation as Doust would actually misquote or edit people's emails and posts on forums to sound like threats; the Editor of The Miniatures Page had to basically provide original unedited entries during litigation. In the end, hundreds of gamers lost money to New Wave and Doust. While this was going on, Doust funnelled the money into creating CMON. Any mention of New Wave or moneys owed were summarily deleted from CMON forums and for a period links to The Miniatures Page's several threads on New Wave were automatically blocked and users attempting to post about it were banned. CMON was founded on Doust scamming wargamers. Now that it's 8 years after that, many have forgotten or don't know about it, but many still refuse to do any business with CMON because they lost money to New Wave. Many also believe New Wave helped to destroy I-Kore (which became Urban Mammoth) as they were also the distributor for their products, making it nearly impossible for Void to purchases in some areas. Most of this is in the public record and there's overwhelming evidence still available on TMP, warseer, rpg.net, and many other forums. I don't believe Doust has ever apologized or tried to rectify in any way for the hundreds if not thousands of people that were scammed by him. PM me and I can send several links containing bunches of info that I sent to RITides when he asked me.

End of the offtopic-ness.

 judgedoug wrote:
Last post about it for the people who were curious:

New Wave Mail Order was run by David Doust. From 2000-2004 New Wave would offer things for sale that weren't in stock, overcharge credit cards, never ship product, and constantly lie about it (to the tune of having lied about someone dying three times in a year to delay shipping product). The business had literally hundreds of BBB complaints against them. Eventually Doust was investigated by the Georgia State Attorney, and eventually some customers got some money back. It was incredibly bad during the litigation as Doust would actually misquote or edit people's emails and posts on forums to sound like threats; the Editor of The Miniatures Page had to basically provide original unedited entries during litigation. In the end, hundreds of gamers lost money to New Wave and Doust. While this was going on, Doust funnelled the money into creating CMON. Any mention of New Wave or moneys owed were summarily deleted from CMON forums and for a period links to The Miniatures Page's several threads on New Wave were automatically blocked and users attempting to post about it were banned. CMON was founded on Doust scamming wargamers. Now that it's 8 years after that, many have forgotten or don't know about it, but many still refuse to do any business with CMON because they lost money to New Wave. Many also believe New Wave helped to destroy I-Kore (which became Urban Mammoth) as they were also the distributor for their products, making it nearly impossible for Void to purchases in some areas. Most of this is in the public record and there's overwhelming evidence still available on TMP, warseer, rpg.net, and many other forums. I don't believe Doust has ever apologized or tried to rectify in any way for the hundreds if not thousands of people that were scammed by him. PM me and I can send several links containing bunches of info that I sent to RITides when he asked me.

End of the offtopic-ness.

Not too offtopic I think. The whole Maelstrom debacle seems to have some parallels to this New Wave story. Offering stock they knew they wouldn't get, never shipping orders, making constant excuses ("We are awaiting stock and your order will go out this friday"), funding a new company with the money that was supposed to buy stock for the main company (banelegions was funded as MG was in trouble). - The similarities do stack up. Let's hope this years kickstarter is not last years warehouse move...

I'm really hoping that this kickstarter will deliver for all the guys who are pledging. I for one will not put any money in this, as I was one of the guys burned by MG and also, I spent my hobby budget this year already in the Kingdom Death: Monster kickstarter ;-).

Cheers!

You know what else this reminds me of? Gaspowered Games kickstarter.
http://www.neoseeker.com/news/21971-lacking-confidence-in-wildman-kickstarter-gas-powered-games-hit-with-substantial-layoffs/
Both companies seem to need funding to continue and they're doing it via KS

To all those still complaining about Mr. Lane's past, would it be so difficult for you to take your grief elsewhere, as has been asked multiple times already by the board staff? I mean it's not like anyone on here is still unaware by now what the history behind Mierce is...

(And seriously, asking for MM to compensate clients for missing items on other lines is ridiculous. It's like asking Relic, assuming they purchase the rights to the DoW/Space Marine lines from about-to-die-THQ, to then patch any remaining bugs in Saint's Row 3 because "they owe it to the gamers who got robbed by THQ"...)

I have purchased a few BaneL miniatures from MG before the whole fiasco (the months-long sale seemed fishy, glad I didn't hop on) and was always looking forward to further releases and still am, and this thread was until recently one of those I'd be keeping a close eye on here on Dakka. However most of the time when it gets bumped up now is because of the same old arguments being flung around once again.

It's a dead fish, let it rest, please.

As for the KS, there are quite a few beautiful units being offered there, but not only are there not a single one I would have any use for beyond as display pieces, I've been strapped for cash over the past few months because of my girlfriend's recent health problems, so won't participate on this one. Had I had any interest in doing so I would definitely have been hesitant, considering the company management's past, and I am therefore glad I won't have to weight that decision.

Player not found wrote:
(And seriously, asking for MM to compensate clients for missing items on other lines is ridiculous. It's like asking Relic, assuming they purchase the rights to the DoW/Space Marine lines from about-to-die-THQ, to then patch any remaining bugs in Saint's Row 3 because "they owe it to the gamers who got robbed by THQ"...)

Your comparison is as tedious as it is misguided. We're talking about real debts and lost money here, not some kind of moral obligation. Kindly desist

From the front page on the Darklands Kickstarter and has been there since Thurs 17th

FAQ

If I choose more than one pledge do I have to pay for shipping on each pledge?
How do I choose my kindred/faction once I have pledged?
I see you have some optional extras I can choose from? How do I pledge/choose?
I want multiple amounts of the same optional add-on figure? Is this possible?
Can I add to my pledge at the end?
If I choose multiple starter sets does each starter set get a free mini set at the Stretch Goal?
Yes, once you check out at then end of the Kickstarter and let us know which kindreds you have chosen (we'll email you) we'll add the relavent free minis for your starter set choice/kindred.

Last updated: Thursday Jan 17, 10:36am EST

@I-Kore
I have to correct you there, I-Kore went under because some people from within (some the same that were involved in the crash of Target Games) made a lot of shady dealings. One sold stock twice and funneled the money into his own pockets. And there were also other not so nice things going on within. I-Kore died because they never got rid of the poeple that destroyed Target in the first place. And if you go back there is a whole line of companies that got killed by the actions of certain people.

@New Wave
quite some of what you wrote is true, but it gets less correct when concerning CMoN.

Carrowek is intense! love thst moel but i wonder if he is going to fit with fantasy mpdel file and rank models.

I have great expecations on Carrowek on horse. We know that Simon can make brutal human figures, but also great beasts of horses (like the mounted Drunes of Confrontation). I bet it will be quite the sight!

Yeah, that Carrowek #2 is going to be awesome

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:

@New Wave
quite some of what you wrote is true, but it gets less correct when concerning CMoN.

Which part? It was well documented they were deleting and editing posts to remove mention of Doust/NewWave and banning users that attempted to bring it up. I do not know if that is still the case currently.

Perhaps MM or someone who knows the background to this line can answer a few questions. I'm interested in the history of the miniatures and their creation etc.

The BaneLegions line seems to have started in May 2010. I'm not sure just how many mini's were released since then but there has to be more than a few!

What's the total number of mini's we can expect to see in this line (based purely on existing assets obviously, not new sculpts), and seeing as a vast number already exist (the 90% figure that has been bandied around that MM now owns) - how was this breakdown between Banelegions and Darklands determined?

Was it just that some had to be kept out of the ownership sale for whatever reason, or just simple economics and the rest may make it in after you've built up some capital? Will there ever be a list of the 10% missing so that past followers of the line don't invest in this now not knowing that their favorite ex BaneLegion mini isn't coming to Darklands?

I'm coming at this from the point of view of someone who until the KS was launched had only ever seen the occasional BaneLegion mini around but never really looked at the line. So for me every figure can be said to be new, although as I understand it some of these could have been sculpted over three years ago.

As this is now going to be something like WHFB, KoW et all with its own rules, I'm looking long term if I'm making an investment in the factions I might be interested in. I'm thinking of going back over the line and looking at various models as a kind of signpost of what to expect coming up.

Before I bother going to that effort though I thought I would ask here in case you can say outright that most of the mini's will see a release as part of the rules, or that XYZ mini is excluded so I don't see something awesome from 2010/2011 and get my hopes up not knowing that it either will never appear or the re-release is scheduled for 2-3 years away.

For example, looking at your website I see only 6 products listed for the Brythoniaid under Darklands. Was this always a limited line (hence the KS) or are there really a huge number of mini's from the original line that aren't represented here?

There are certainly going to be people like myself going from the KS to your website, and not knowing what the difference between Banelegions and Darklands is, doesn't help when searching the web as you obviously find many more results under Banelegions than Darklands.

Some sort of breakdown of which is which, a planned rollout schedule etc would help greatly in making a decision on which line to pick up in the Starter sets. Apologies if this exists somewhere already, my initial look didn't see anything definitive.

Ask in the comments of kickstarter. Mierce has been very good at answering questions.

You have to be a backer to post in the comments, and Mierce has posted some here, so hopefully they can answer.

I notice there's no small token pledge amount like in most Kickstarters I guess this is to stop people posting in the comments to warn about the company and it's ceo.
Honestly I would not be giving them any money until the investigation and winding up of maelstrom have been completed as it's to much of a gamble.

Nothing is charged until the KS ends, so I don't see why the pledge size would discourage people from jumping in there to comment.
There have been plenty of comments on the Rob Lane/MG situation.

SeanDrake wrote:
I notice there's no small token pledge amount like in most Kickstarters I guess this is to stop people posting in the comments to warn about the company and it's ceo.
Honestly I would not be giving them any money until the investigation and winding up of maelstrom have been completed as it's to much of a gamble.

Cant you just click the No reward: No thanks, I just want to help the project?

Or does that not allow comments?

It does. And even if it didn't, you could always just pull any pledge before the end, again.

You can, and I did so on page 1 or so of the comments when no one had linked to the threads discussing the prior situation.

However, most people won't, so it is good when companies answer questions outside of the KS comments to draw in potential backers who don't want to make a token pledge and then have to cancel it if they don't like the answer.

To be fair ks has the ask a question button - that doesn't require you to be a backer,

 Surloch wrote:
Perhaps MM or someone who knows the background to this line can answer a few questions. I'm interested in the history of the miniatures and their creation etc.

The BaneLegions line seems to have started in May 2010. I'm not sure just how many mini's were released since then but there has to be more than a few!

What's the total number of mini's we can expect to see in this line (based purely on existing assets obviously, not new sculpts), and seeing as a vast number already exist (the 90% figure that has been bandied around that MM now owns) - how was this breakdown between Banelegions and Darklands determined?

Was it just that some had to be kept out of the ownership sale for whatever reason, or just simple economics and the rest may make it in after you've built up some capital? Will there ever be a list of the 10% missing so that past followers of the line don't invest in this now not knowing that their favorite ex BaneLegion mini isn't coming to Darklands?

I'm coming at this from the point of view of someone who until the KS was launched had only ever seen the occasional BaneLegion mini around but never really looked at the line. So for me every figure can be said to be new, although as I understand it some of these could have been sculpted over three years ago.

As this is now going to be something like WHFB, KoW et all with its own rules, I'm looking long term if I'm making an investment in the factions I might be interested in. I'm thinking of going back over the line and looking at various models as a kind of signpost of what to expect coming up.

Before I bother going to that effort though I thought I would ask here in case you can say outright that most of the mini's will see a release as part of the rules, or that XYZ mini is excluded so I don't see something awesome from 2010/2011 and get my hopes up not knowing that it either will never appear or the re-release is scheduled for 2-3 years away.

For example, looking at your website I see only 6 products listed for the Brythoniaid under Darklands. Was this always a limited line (hence the KS) or are there really a huge number of mini's from the original line that aren't represented here?

There are certainly going to be people like myself going from the KS to your website, and not knowing what the difference between Banelegions and Darklands is, doesn't help when searching the web as you obviously find many more results under Banelegions than Darklands.

Some sort of breakdown of which is which, a planned rollout schedule etc would help greatly in making a decision on which line to pick up in the Starter sets. Apologies if this exists somewhere already, my initial look didn't see anything definitive.

Darklands are the minis they're fitting into their skirmish game.

Banelegions is other minis that they'll release from time to time (no elfs, dwarfs, orcs, etc.. in Darklands).

 Surloch wrote:
Perhaps MM or someone who knows the background to this line can answer a few questions. I'm interested in the history of the miniatures and their creation etc.

The BaneLegions line seems to have started in May 2010. I'm not sure just how many mini's were released since then but there has to be more than a few!

What's the total number of mini's we can expect to see in this line (based purely on existing assets obviously, not new sculpts), and seeing as a vast number already exist (the 90% figure that has been bandied around that MM now owns) - how was this breakdown between Banelegions and Darklands determined?

Was it just that some had to be kept out of the ownership sale for whatever reason, or just simple economics and the rest may make it in after you've built up some capital? Will there ever be a list of the 10% missing so that past followers of the line don't invest in this now not knowing that their favorite ex BaneLegion mini isn't coming to Darklands?

I'm coming at this from the point of view of someone who until the KS was launched had only ever seen the occasional BaneLegion mini around but never really looked at the line. So for me every figure can be said to be new, although as I understand it some of these could have been sculpted over three years ago.

As this is now going to be something like WHFB, KoW et all with its own rules, I'm looking long term if I'm making an investment in the factions I might be interested in. I'm thinking of going back over the line and looking at various models as a kind of signpost of what to expect coming up.

Before I bother going to that effort though I thought I would ask here in case you can say outright that most of the mini's will see a release as part of the rules, or that XYZ mini is excluded so I don't see something awesome from 2010/2011 and get my hopes up not knowing that it either will never appear or the re-release is scheduled for 2-3 years away.

For example, looking at your website I see only 6 products listed for the Brythoniaid under Darklands. Was this always a limited line (hence the KS) or are there really a huge number of mini's from the original line that aren't represented here?

There are certainly going to be people like myself going from the KS to your website, and not knowing what the difference between Banelegions and Darklands is, doesn't help when searching the web as you obviously find many more results under Banelegions than Darklands.

Some sort of breakdown of which is which, a planned rollout schedule etc would help greatly in making a decision on which line to pick up in the Starter sets. Apologies if this exists somewhere already, my initial look didn't see anything definitive.

Decker pretty much got it in a nutshell. We own all of the Banelegions minis, it's just that we re-branded about 90% of them as Darklands minis to fit in with the Darklands game. Those minis that remain BaneLegions are the more high fantasy stuff like elves, orcs, dwarfs - that sort of thing and also the Vagrant Knight who doesn't fit the Darklands setting historically.

We still plan to keep supporting the BaneLegions range though, in fact we re-released some old favourites recently that we managed to re-master (the old Ox-Gore, three-face etc) and over the next month or so you should see some brand new releases for that line as well.

Going onto Darklands, some of the factions are more fleshed out that others. Ysians, Kthones and Formorians have had the most of the love so far. Going forward the Anglcynn, Norse and Brythons will get more love (though there will still be releases for the other 3 and also possibly those outside the core 6 as well.). Those 6 factions will be the core of the game when we launch the full game rules with a big stonking book, most likely in 2014. As far as release schedules go we released new minis every month since we formed. POst KS the new releases will be those funded by the KS, available to the wider public, retailers etc and after that new, unseen releases will appear again. A lot depends on what we fund via KS and what we don't. For example mtd Carrowek and Cearl will be funded at £25k. The next stretch goal may well have a new mini we would like to fund.

Moulding for some of the stuff that was funded at £5k begins this week btw. The Ysian Ax unit is on my desk now (the champ is already released) and the std bearer first cast are looking magnificent (we will be releasing the Ax unit one at a time for collectors, though KS backers will get the full unit before anyone else).

SeanDrake wrote:
I notice there's no small token pledge amount like in most Kickstarters I guess this is to stop people posting in the comments to warn about the company and it's ceo.
Honestly I would not be giving them any money until the investigation and winding up of maelstrom have been completed as it's to much of a gamble.

You can enter a pledge of £1+ on the pledging page, you don't need to choose a reward. And you can cancel it completely right up until the last second.

Edit: that's been pretty well covered already, sorry.

 scipio.au wrote:

 fullheadofhair wrote:
I own several Bane legion etc models. Love the sculpts and the the casts have been pretty damn awesome (except they cannot cast bases for gak).

I want to pledge on this. I really do. My wallet twitches and I have a filled out the screen several times. I just cannot bring myself to hit that final button. I just cannot convince myself I am going to see anything from this once the money has left my account.

I cannot be the only one who thinks like this surely?

How does Mierce manage to repair their reputation (other than Mr. Lane never having anything to do with them ever again)? I am not sure what would make me hit that final button.

Honestly, if Mierce and Lane really wanted forgiveness from the consumer end of the community, they'd contact all the people who were ripped off by Maelstrom's non-fulfillment of orders and offer Mierce Miniatures credit for the same amounts of money. It wouldn't do much for the supply chain end who got burned, but this is the only way I could see them having a mostly-successful mea culpa on a larger scale then their existing fans, apologists and those who don't care that the same people ripped a lot of our community off not 4 months ago. ("because, you know, it didn't happen to me!")

That's a really good idea!

Not sure how they'd manage it, but it sounds great to me!

I know something like that would get me to pledge for this one - there are some fantastic miniatures available on this one...

It'd be easy enough if they wanted to do it. No-one took the Maelstrom database off them, after all. A lot of people had their details and order history transferred to the EOTS website.

They also managed to send everyone on the Maelstrom mailing list a traditional Maelstrom-style email advertising the Mierce sale.

Load up the Maelstrom database files. See who had outstanding, paid, unfulfilled orders. Email those people with a "look how nice we are - here's some credit!" email. Take the orders, cast them up, and Bob's your Mother's Brother!

It'd cost them more in casting time than it would in resin, I'm sure.

It's a very good idea but it would probably kill Mierce viability, I'm assuming the debt to customers is quite big.

 scipio.au wrote:

They also managed to send everyone on the Maelstrom mailing list a traditional Maelstrom-style email advertising the Mierce sale.

That's a good point. How often were Maelstrom sending out discounts on their own line before things went wrong? I'm sure it was normally on the site at full retail.

Does that sale plus the Kickstarter indicate a need for cash?

Probably not. They ran 20% off during Salute in April, and last year they did 25% off for christmas.

Nominally the KS is for the rules+starter sets. I would also assume that the purpose of ANY KS is a "need for cash".

I'm not sure that MM is that well off financially. Earlier I posted a link to some news about the gaspowered games kickstarter. The gist of it was that GPG; creators of dungeon siege 1,2 and 3, started a ks recently with a target goal of one million. After 4 days, news slipped out that they had laid off most of their staff due to the disappointing results of the ks (100k reached out of 1 mill iirc) The boss came out and said that apparently they were depending on the KS to do well to be able to pay their wages for the next few months while developing the game at the same time. Due to the lacklustre response, he felt he had no choice but to lay off most of his staff; supposedly leaving him with maybe 4 staff left, and hope the company survives while awaiting the end of the KS.

How does this relate to MM? I can't imagine their sales are too good since the MG fiasco, plus they have been offering plenty of sales (sounds familiar?) Not to mention that according to the sob story the rep posted on the first few pages, MM doesn't make that much money. And that they had to pay a 'legitimate" amount to MG to get the MM line. So any money they might have stored up during their early years may be gone. So yes, they probably might need the money from this KS somewhat desperately

Of course, this is all just idle speculation. No one knows the truth except Rob Lane.

I bet they need the money for this KS just as much as CMoN's zombicide or relic knights, or Studio McVey's Sedition Wars, or Reaper's Bones, or Kingdom Death's Monster, etc. etc. etc. Kickstarting is the new and hyped way of selling miniatures. Everyone do it currently. MM mentioned that they would launch a KS early 2013 quite a while ago, so this isn't anything surprising.

 judgedoug wrote:
Probably not. They ran 20% off during Salute in April, and last year they did 25% off for christmas.

So it's maybe not that unusal.

Nominally the KS is for the rules+starter sets. I would also assume that the purpose of ANY KS is a "need for cash".

Most KS projects seem to be in raising capital to start a new product or production run, or a pre-order for stuff they are about to start making. I wouldn't be surprised if some companies who were having financial difficulties would start a KS project, as it's an easy way to get a large chunk of capital within about a week of the project finishing, relying on the income to keep going.

grefven wrote:
I bet they need the money for this KS just as much as CMoN's zombicide or relic knights, or Studio McVey's Sedition Wars, or Reaper's Bones, or Kingdom Death's Monster, etc. etc. etc. Kickstarting is the new and hyped way of selling miniatures. Everyone do it currently. MM mentioned that they would launch a KS early 2013 quite a while ago, so this isn't anything surprising.

So you don't think MM may be strapped for cash?

I'm still confused by the "plenty of sales"? Mierce has done one sale, post-Christmas, for 20% off, ever. If you want to include the previous history, then they did a sale at Salute in April (like most companies have their stuff on sale at conventions) and 25% off last Christmas. So one sale as Mierce, and three sales in the miniature line's history, from 2011-2013?

Every company needs money and KS is a great way of getting it. Plus they're launching the miniatures rules packed in with new retail packaging of Darklands Starter Sets with different warbands. Shrug. Almost every gaming KS is basically the same thing - preorder for a new product launch.

Well, I count the 20% sale from dec which they sent to the MG list and the 'discounted' existing figures in the KS. That's 2 sales in the 3 months since MG collapsed; which I consider the birth of this incarnation of MM really.

grefven wrote:
I bet they need the money for this KS just as much as CMoN's zombicide or relic knights, or Studio McVey's Sedition Wars, or Reaper's Bones, or Kingdom Death's Monster, etc. etc. etc. Kickstarting is the new and hyped way of selling miniatures. Everyone do it currently. MM mentioned that they would launch a KS early 2013 quite a while ago, so this isn't anything surprising.

How is being the mayor of ignorant-ville treating you? Well? CMoN is simply the publishing partner for Zombiecide (Guillotine Games) and Relic Knights (Soda Pop) so it's completely believable that they would need KS assistance to help complete push out their product, especially for Soda Pop who is completely retooling an entirely metal line for plastics as well as paying to sculpt and mould about 15 new models.

Kingdom Death is a one man operation that ran his KS on his own so to liken him to larger companies is simply foolish.

Reaper is perhaps the only one that could "afford" to do what they wanted without the KS, but certainly not as quickly.

@cincydooley: It's treating me quite fine, thank you for asking. But the point is that doing a kickstarter is the way to sell miniatures these days. If you are interested in seeing exactly how much check out this discussion at DakkaDakka: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/489332.page

Edit: Or if you don't want to read it this is how much miniatures brought in from kickstarters in 2012: $8,675,699. I think that discussing why a miniature company wants to launch a KS to sell items isn't needed really (and it isn't counting Kingdom Death's additional $2,000,000!).

Well, if you're going by my point, the difference is subtle. KD:M and Sodapop and Zombicide don't need the money from KS to continue functioning. I wonder if the same can be said of MM

I never said the function of the KS wasn't to sell miniatures as well. Unless they're getting donations, that's pretty much the only way MM will be getting money from the consumers

grefven wrote:
@cincydooley: It's treating me quite fine, thank you for asking. But the point is that doing a kickstarter is the way to sell miniatures these days. If you are interested in seeing exactly how much check out this discussion at DakkaDakka: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/489332.page

Edit: Or if you don't want to read it this is how much miniatures brought in from kickstarters in 2012: $8,675,699. I think that discussing why a miniature company wants to launch a KS to sell items isn't needed really (and it isn't counting Kingdom Death's additional $2,000,000!).

WHich means exactly what? Did GW run a KS? Or Forge World? Or PP? Or Corvus Belli? Or Dream Pod 9? Or WizKids? Or Warlord?

It means that small companies now have a different and potentially better outlet to get their product in the hands of the consumer. Because they need that outlet. Because most stores don't carry their product.

As to Mierce: do you have any proof that they need the influx from KS to keep operating or is that purely speculation?

 cincydooley wrote:
As to Mierce: do you have any proof that they need the influx from KS to keep operating or is that purely speculation?

I didn't state that I thought they needed influx from KS to keep operating. I would rather say the direct opposit. They've invested too much money into MM for it to be uncertain this early after the split. If anything goes astray at this point, they've pretty much driven the final nail into the coffin, so I am rather overconfident that they will deliver. Most of the items from this KS are already done and paid for, and it would require only the minimum of effort to have it fullfilled at this point.

Souks have clarified: that comment was directed at Shining

The point of the KS is simple. It allows us to fund the production of the starter sets and the Quickstarter rules months in advance of our plans without a Kickstarter.

If we don't go down the KS route (which was a possibility) then a lot of the minis you see plus the QS rules would have to wait a few months. However, we have lots of people that like the minis but want to be able to play a game with them. We are at the point where we have a healthy mini catalogue, but no (full) starter sets or rules in circulation. People are asking us for these, that's what the KS is for. There are some retailers that want to stock the minis, but know their own customers and they want to have a game they can play first. It's always a chicken and egg situation regarding minis or rules first (ideally you have both!) and I suppose this is a little like a Wyrd/Malifaux route where the minis are around first and people bought them without the game to play and then when the game is released people can jump onboard.

Are times hard? Yes, of course they are, there's a global recession on & we've had to adapt. Will we go under without the KS? No, we're on solid ground in that respect, but if we want to have a 'push' to get some new minis and printed rules sorted then you need a cash flow spike, just like many businesses in this environment. Does the KS help cash flow? Of course! This KS has never been planned to be a 'world ender' KD or SW sort of KS. It's a small step on the way to a full game with 6 playable factions at launch plus others. That's gonna take time and the KS brings us closer to that goal.

Already we can now plan production of all the starter sets, also we've funded the 60mm plastic round bases now so they will ship with the pledges. Plastic bases might seem like a small, boring thing but they REALLY help us from a logistic point of view and per unit it's a lot cheaper than casting our own in resin! (in both time and money) Of course we need to pay upfront for the tooling and production of the bases before we see any long-term saving, so again the KS has been able to do that and is a great tool for bringing these things forward. As the KS progresses we can look to fund some new minis (sooner than planned) and also fund the production of larger base sizes (120mm will be next).

Had we not launched the KS these things would happen (we've always planned the game!), but maybe not in the order or speed that they will without the help of KS and our backers.

 cincydooley wrote:
CMoN is simply the publishing partner for Zombiecide (Guillotine Games) and Relic Knights (Soda Pop) so it's completely believable that they would need KS assistance to help complete push out their product, especially for Soda Pop who is completely retooling an entirely metal line for plastics as well as paying to sculpt and mould about 15 new models.

Kingdom Death is a one man operation that ran his KS on his own so to liken him to larger companies is simply foolish.

Reaper is perhaps the only one that could "afford" to do what they wanted without the KS, but certainly not as quickly.

This, seriously. It's especially unfair to harp on Sedition Wars and Kingdom Death. Yeah, everybody knew that they both were going to make buckets of money, but they really did need it to fund the production of plastic molds. Both just successfully leveraged their reputations as small-scale makers of quality miniatures into kickstarter success.

 cincydooley wrote:
Did GW run a KS?

No, but their latest newsletter did say "Kick start your hobby with our 1-click bundles", and that made me laugh.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Did GW run a KS?

No, but their latest newsletter did say "Kick start your hobby with our 1-click bundles", and that made me laugh.

Laugh... Weep with the stupidity of it all... It's a fine line...

Valete,

JohnS

Hi all! Just want to say that I recieved my Uuthul and some other minis from Mierce today!
Everything at time and very well casted , as it use to happen with banelegions...
Just want to add some positive light into all those people afraid of being scammed again.
And I hope the KS works well enough for this guys.
Remember people , blaming one for the sins of the others is not fair at all... just saying...

I received my model from the BaneLegions line successfully back when I ordered it, too (not from Mierce, but their predecessor)... that's not really the point. Also, blaming the same person for their Own sins is somewhat more fair

Every time someone defends them it brings this topic up again. I'd prefer to see those who are supporting Mierce focus Only on the kickstarter contents, and not keep bringing this debate back up by way of rebuttal.

30k stretch goal just added, adds another freebie model to each starter set; about half are new models.

This KS is becoming quite a deal. Definitely a good way for Mierce to buff out some of it's tarnish.

Update #5 · Jan. 22, 2013

The £25,000 stretch goal is almost achieved and we think it would be nice to reveal the next one, in which we give some free miniatures to those who have pledged for a Starter Set!



Both Ssibyros, Gorgonarchon of Khthon and Geraint Nerthol, Tiern of Cedweli ("Mighty Geraint") are completely new, never-before-seen concepts and with Cearl and Carrowek on Horse represent the next phase of our miniatures line.

Ssibyros will be sculpted by Thomas David and Geraint's sculptor is a secret, for now...

If we achieve this stretch goal, there will be more stretch goals for free stuff - but ONLY if we reach this £30,000 Stretch Goal! It's our aim that each kindred gets something new during this Kickstarter in addition to the Starter Sets (either free or to be pledged extra for) - so get your mates and your rellies and anybody else you can think of to pledge for a Starter Set!

Please note that these are "fixed" for the Starter Set you want - so, for example, if you go for the Angelcynn Infantry Starter Set, you'll get Æthelglyth.
Also note that these "free" miniatures are budgeted in such a way that no one Starter Set gains an advantage from another. The cost of the Brutes, Drune-Goaders, Ungefelic and Ulric, for example, are roughly equal to all of the other monstrous infantry Starter Sets. So you won't be getting a bad deal if you get a man-sized miniature!

These "free" miniatures will ship with the Starter Set in question, of course and do not incur extra shipping charges.

They seem to have a problem with what I meant with :" make it possible for the backers to spend some more money."

They added new pledge levels... which is nice, but not what I meant ;(

Kingdom Death was so successful because you could add another 10$ here, 15$ there because the addons where not linked to a pledge level.

@Ronin: True. Adding possible add-ons is great for increasing the pledge of the existing backers. Adding potential freebies is better for attracting new backers. Existing backers will only go so far in how much they can increase. Successful KS usually depend on the amount of backers that join.

RoninXiC wrote:
They seem to have a problem with what I meant with :" make it possible for the backers to spend some more money."

They added new pledge levels... which is nice, but not what I meant ;(

Kingdom Death was so successful because you could add another 10$ here, 15$ there because the addons where not linked to a pledge level.

There's nothing to stop you upping your pledge level to add on the new, smaller pledges. So you could add one of the £10 character minis if you wish .

You should make that a bit clearer on the front page. But good to hear!

SeanDrake wrote:
I notice there's no small token pledge amount like in most Kickstarters I guess this is to stop people posting in the comments to warn about the company and it's ceo.
Honestly I would not be giving them any money until the investigation and winding up of maelstrom have been completed as it's to much of a gamble.

You know you can pledge whatever, comment, and then cancel at any point, right?

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:
I notice there's no small token pledge amount like in most Kickstarters I guess this is to stop people posting in the comments to warn about the company and it's ceo.
Honestly I would not be giving them any money until the investigation and winding up of maelstrom have been completed as it's to much of a gamble.

You know you can pledge whatever, comment, and then cancel at any point, right?

Not to rain on your parade but we already said that like 5 times by now

You should make that a bit clearer on the front page. But good to hear!

Good point well made.

Clarified in the pledge desc now

Sining wrote:
Well, I count the 20% sale from dec which they sent to the MG list and the 'discounted' existing figures in the KS. That's 2 sales in the 3 months since MG collapsed; which I consider the birth of this incarnation of MM really.

I wouldnt even count the 20% off sale, since I think the war store and some other online sellers sell them at about 20% off normally.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kenshin620 wrote:

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:
I notice there's no small token pledge amount like in most Kickstarters I guess this is to stop people posting in the comments to warn about the company and it's ceo.
Honestly I would not be giving them any money until the investigation and winding up of maelstrom have been completed as it's to much of a gamble.

You know you can pledge whatever, comment, and then cancel at any point, right?

Not to rain on your parade but we already said that like 5 times by now

Oh yeah, well... uh, your mom answered it like 5 times now!

Can anyone give a scale for these models? I'm looking at the picture of the 30k stretch goal and in the top row there are three models. They all look like the pictures were taken at different distances from the models, but in the picture they are all about the same size. Just a general height would be good.

Conveniently enough the latest update is a comparative scale guide!
http://www.mierce-miniatures.com/downloads/scale_shots_medium.jpg

Two new concept arts. The Penda on horse looks pretty neat.

The £25,000 stretch goal is now achieved and thank you to everybody who has backed our Kickstarter to get that far - within a week! Thank you, thank you!

This £35,000 stretch goal is something to aim towards, because after that there'll be another freebie stretch.

There's some really cool stuff at £35,000 to get your teeth into because the theme is MONSTERS (mostly) - just look at Uuthüll and Mjagnir! They're huge!

We've also got two new miniatures to show you: Penda on horse, who will ship in September 2013 I'm afraid (JAG is very busy!) [we will split shipping so that the Angelcynn Starter Set is sent to you first] and a mighty new departure for the Khthones - Chysperis, Fídron of Khthon, who stands a massive 162mm to the tip of his tail. He's absolutely HUGE and is the embodiment of Khthon for pretty much all of the Khthones; as such, he's treated reverentially by them and not only because he's blimmin' massive (we'll add him to the scale shots to show you)! Chysperis will ship with the Khthones Starter Set in September 2013.

All you have to do to get a hold of any of the miniatures shown on the £35,000 stretch goal is to increase your pledge by the amount shown! Remember, if you want multiples of a miniature, just increase your pledge by the price times the number you want!



If you want to keep your pledge "in kindred" have a look at the kindred symbols on the Starter Sets and the image above (as well any stretch goal images). You can choose additional miniatures for the kindred you've chosen or anything you desire - perhaps for a painting project!

Please note, Cormorágg is Albainn - but the Brythoniaid do ally with that kindred through their northern kingdoms of Gododdin and Rheged, mainly thanks to Cunedda, who founded the kingdom of Gwynedd and retained strong ties with the peoples to the north. Thus, you'll be able to use the Albainn if you're a Brythoniaid player!

Now then. You're not limited in any way by our Kickstarter and you can increase your pledge level by the amounts shown above and choose what you want at checkout when the Kickstarter ends.

Please note, there are no additional shipping fees if you've already chosen a Starter Set!

Remember, once we get to £35,000 we'll unveil the next stretch goal, which will also be a "freebie" one! Get pledging people, get your mates to pledge too!

Penda on horse yay! I got the Kraan on bear a few months ago and I must say, I've never had any figures on large mounts because they've just never been done well, but Mierce has definitely pulled it off.

They should call it "tri deg pump mil" stretch goal
(That's 35.000 in Welsh, I hope)

And that's another strech goal where you are finally allowed to buy more existing Mierce models

Please note, Cormorágg is Albainn - but the Brythoniaid do ally with that kindred through their northern kingdoms of Gododdin and Rheged, mainly thanks to Cunedda, who founded the kingdom of Gwynedd and retained strong ties with the peoples to the north. Thus, you'll be able to use the Albainn if you're a Brythoniaid player!

 Kroothawk wrote:
They should call it "tri deg pump mil" stretch goal
(That's 35.000 in Welsh, I hope)

And that's another strech goal where you are finally allowed to buy more existing Mierce models

And Penda on Horse and Chysperis, one of which is still in concept art stage and the other which is not released.

If I just want Uuthull the Kraacken, can I pledge 85 dollars or is it only in addition to another reward?

chaos0xomega wrote:
If I just want Uuthull the Kraacken, can I pledge 85 dollars or is it only in addition to another reward?

You just buy him here:
http://www.mierce-miniatures.com/index.php?act=pro&pre=mrm_dkl_fmr_blr_mbs_852_000

 Kroothawk wrote:
They should call it "tri deg pump mil" stretch goal
(That's 35.000 in Welsh, I hope)

And that's another strech goal where you are finally allowed to buy more existing Mierce models

Please note, Cormorágg is Albainn - but the Brythoniaid do ally with that kindred through their northern kingdoms of Gododdin and Rheged, mainly thanks to Cunedda, who founded the kingdom of Gwynedd and retained strong ties with the peoples to the north. Thus, you'll be able to use the Albainn if you're a Brythoniaid player!

haha
I had absolutely exactly the same expression

I'm all in for the Angelcynn and really want this to be a success (and no I'm not related to Rob Lane honest!). These models (new or otherwise) are too good to pass up.

I can't seem to find details on the other kindred factions that aren't part of this kickstarter - I'm sure I saw Romans and Greeks mentioned. Anyone know where to look?

Laney

Just now MM posted a comment about allies in the game. You might want to check that out.

It's all a bit unclear and vague at the moment. Maybe next week we will have some more details when they will have released the video.

 Kroothawk wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
If I just want Uuthull the Kraacken, can I pledge 85 dollars or is it only in addition to another reward?

You just buy him here:
http://www.mierce-miniatures.com/index.php?act=pro&pre=mrm_dkl_fmr_blr_mbs_852_000

Or i ledge for the kickstarter for just that model and get it for 2/3 the price shipped (which is cheaper than any of the domestic discounters by a good amount)...?

 02Laney wrote:
I'm all in for the Angelcynn and really want this to be a success (and no I'm not related to Rob Lane honest!). These models (new or otherwise) are too good to pass up.

I can't seem to find details on the other kindred factions that aren't part of this kickstarter - I'm sure I saw Romans and Greeks mentioned. Anyone now where to look?

Laney

The Atalantes Kindred is, judging from the limited background available, supposed to be dark age ancient Greeks...? The only mini they have out for that Kindred is Talos, a huge Colossus. They created the entire Khthone race and are based on the crumbling continent of Atlantis. The Byzantii are dark age roman remnants. Again, they have only one mini out, the Tarask of Var.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
If I just want Uuthull the Kraacken, can I pledge 85 dollars or is it only in addition to another reward?

You just buy him here:
http://www.mierce-miniatures.com/index.php?act=pro&pre=mrm_dkl_fmr_blr_mbs_852_000

Or i ledge for the kickstarter for just that model and get it for 2/3 the price shipped (which is cheaper than any of the domestic discounters by a good amount)...?

You should be able to. Just PM mierce miniatures on kickstarter to ask how to get that arranged...

The cheapest way to pledge for just one of the optional minis right now is to pledge 12 pounds (10+2 for international shipping) for the General and Rules level and then add your optional extras.
Definitely get in touch with Mierce Miniatures through the KS though as they might be encouraged to add a "Just the Quickstarter Rules" (as I'm sure they want to get those out there) level that you could add options to.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
If I just want Uuthull the Kraacken, can I pledge 85 dollars or is it only in addition to another reward?

You just buy him here:
http://www.mierce-miniatures.com/index.php?act=pro&pre=mrm_dkl_fmr_blr_mbs_852_000

Or i ledge for the kickstarter for just that model and get it for 2/3 the price shipped (which is cheaper than any of the domestic discounters by a good amount)...?

Well three month ago it was called warehouse moving 50% special savings sale, not 35.000$ kickstarter stretch goal. The Times They Are a-Changin'

Yeah and apparently I would have never received the mini, not that it was released yet at the time.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah and apparently I would have never received the mini, not that it was released yet at the time.

Most people seem to have had their Darklands orders filled by Mierce from any MG orders they made. That's based purely off anecdotal evidence though, so who knows.

Now you mention it, just today I received both the whole re-shipped (when it seemed after six weeks the initial shipment was lost in the immaterium forever) order and, to my astonishment (this is two months after it originally shipped) half of the original order (damaged as hell by the postal service but that's hardly mierce's fault, is it?)
Just as well, because there was a slight miscast to something in the second order and the first was quite beat-up, though together they contain perfect casts for everything I ordered.
Again, heavy handed postal workers are hardly mierce's fault and I must say their CS surrounding the lost shipment was decent enough - as is the packaging btw, only so much abuse any sensible kind of packaging will endure! - so it seems they're genuinely out to be legit, AFAIC.
(before anyone gets out the torches and pitchforks, I'll wait 'till saturday to see if by chance the other half of the first shipment turns up (two separate orders, seems they went out in separate packages) and then mail Mierce to see if they want to pay for having stuff shipped back )

Sorry for rambling post, this is not easy on a phone

I suspect that pitchforks will remain firmly holstered given the sender. Good to hear you got your stuff, sounds like the original parcel was trapped in some terrifying postal machine.

...you carry your pitchfork in a holster? Dude...

Thanks for the info zedmeister - I'll go have a look.

 Bolognesus wrote:
...you carry your pitchfork in a holster? Dude...

I was raised by giant old west farmers, you know nothing of my life!

Great update. GBP40k stretch goal are two exclusive minis - one is Penda with helm on horseback for +30GBP, the other is a mercenary ogre guy, Urbad, who is a freebie with every starter set (or +20GBP if you're not getting a starter set)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just an FYI, frpgames.com has Gynroch ap Roch priced incorrectly at $47.99, which is about half off. Ordered one and it's already been shipped.

http://www.frpgames.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=86828

Concept of the freebie Urbad was released at $30,000:


That beast will be included with every starter set, so you'll get multiples if you're in at the levels that include multiple starter sets.

They've also released the $45,000 stretch add-ons:


I was hoping to see some new Brython stuff, but the last two updates have been "allies" of existing models from other factions. I appreciate that the fact that they are existing models is how they are able to comfortably discount them to the extent they are, but as someone that's been eyeing Darklands miniatures for a while it's not maintaining my excitement.

If they used smaller jumps between stretch goals, and used existing miniatures as stretch goals, more money could proably be raised. Now, with larger jumps between existing miniatures, it's a hit or miss if they add one that will "sell" or not. They've pretty much abandonned their original factions by adding "allies". Not that I care, because they are discounted pretty good, so I am all for adding existing ones.

£35K stretch goal met - the total has risen pretty rapidly today, let's hope that continues.

The Urbad miniature should be up tomorrow. They've also said the £50K stretch will include more free stuff.

I'd like to see some actual Duguth (Angelcynn) minis at some stage, but I may have to wait a little.

Cheers Laney

Hello, I'm confused by these things. In order to qualify for the free miniatures do I need to already have pledged? Like if I want Tarvax tootah & claw, + free Ancuuth + free brunchaath, do I need to have pledged £80 Tooth & claw already? Are these freebies rewards for people who got in early?

No as long as you are pledge for one of the starter sets (sharpen your blades at £60 or tooth & claw at £80) you'll get the free minis specific to that set.

If you add cash to get multiple starter sets (sharpen your blades at $60 or tooth & claw at £80) you get multiple copies of the free minis specific to those sets

ok thanks

The "Early Bird" pricing for the starters is also built in to the increased pledge levels. So if you get two Monster Starters through Hoof, Claw & Tooth for example, you essentially pay the Early Bird 75 quid per starter.

If you want Urbad, you'll want to have pledged before it hits $40k.

Also, it looks like the thing they are working on next is some Ogre Centaurs, which is good since I loathe the GW Dragon Ogres, and was looking for a suitable replacement.

I wasn't going to pledge to this, but I am sorely tempted with the prices things are at, as well as what is coming up.

Ugh, all this arguing over Rob Lane and MG, I can't find anything on the game they're supposedly selling. The figures are fantastic, but the prices are pretty high even for a skirmish game. The KS is a pretty large amount off the retail price, but even so I can't justify that much for a game that doesn't even have any rules yet, not even a teaser! Supposedly the KS is to get quickstart rules printed (for some reason only the QS rules, not the full rules). I understand that the minis are the main push, but the Darklands KS is being billed as a game and there seems to be no info I am finding about the game itself.

Are the QS rules even done or are they still being written? If not why is this being billed as a game and not a minis KS, and if so why no PDF so people can check it out? Why no gameplay videos? No teasers? Not even an overview of how it will play on the KS page.

The minis are gorgeous and quite tempting despite the utter lack of info, but I just can't pitch in $100+ USD without any idea of how the game will play. I'd rather just spend $30 or so on a few figs I'd just like to paint in that case.

The Minis (as Banebeasts and Bane Legions) were originally another line of not-Warhammer models without rules. After awhile they started to expand with their own backgrounded figures and Welsh naming conventions, and shuffled the Dark Elves and Dwarfs off into a niche sub-line, unrelated to the main - while the Beastmen, Minotaurs, Trolls, Not-Keeper of Secrets and Not-Bloodthirster, etc stayed on.

I'm sure that their own game etc was always a long-term goal regardless, as it's pretty much always the longer-term goal for miniatures ranges without their own ruleset (Mantic, Avatars of War, Red Box, Dreamforge, etc etc).

I like how using a single Welsh word here or there, scattered through your fluff, fools people into thinking that the whole thing is using the language legitimately!

 Kalamadea wrote:
Ugh, all this arguing over Rob Lane and MG, I can't find anything on the game they're supposedly selling. The figures are fantastic, but the prices are pretty high even for a skirmish game. The KS is a pretty large amount off the retail price, but even so I can't justify that much for a game that doesn't even have any rules yet, not even a teaser! Supposedly the KS is to get quickstart rules printed (for some reason only the QS rules, not the full rules). I understand that the minis are the main push, but the Darklands KS is being billed as a game and there seems to be no info I am finding about the game itself.

Are the QS rules even done or are they still being written? If not why is this being billed as a game and not a minis KS, and if so why no PDF so people can check it out? Why no gameplay videos? No teasers? Not even an overview of how it will play on the KS page.

The minis are gorgeous and quite tempting despite the utter lack of info, but I just can't pitch in $100+ USD without any idea of how the game will play. I'd rather just spend $30 or so on a few figs I'd just like to paint in that case.

The KS is to fund the production and printing of the Quickstarter rules, bringing forward the production of a load of minis as well as funding things like plastic bases. According to the KS, a video of a game in action with some info on the mechanics will be uploaded later this week.

You can see they got most of the old Rackham sculptors Most of the names are very influenced by Confrontation :p

Yeah, there will be a video posted on Thursday giving a rundown of the quickstarter rules.

pics of Urbad are up, looks decent.

 Scrub wrote:
I like how using a single Welsh word here or there, scattered through your fluff, fools people into thinking that the whole thing is using the language legitimately!

I don't think Mierce is pitching the game as "The most authentic Welsh gaming experience on the market!".

 plastictrees wrote:

 Scrub wrote:
I like how using a single Welsh word here or there, scattered through your fluff, fools people into thinking that the whole thing is using the language legitimately!

I don't think Mierce is pitching the game as "The most authentic Welsh gaming experience on the market!".

What is "The most authentic Welsh gaming experience on the market!". ???

 plastictrees wrote:

 Scrub wrote:
I like how using a single Welsh word here or there, scattered through your fluff, fools people into thinking that the whole thing is using the language legitimately!

I don't think Mierce is pitching the game as "The most authentic Welsh gaming experience on the market!".

WHAT!!! *Throw toys out of cot*
To be honest, I really don't like the names... but the sculpts are A+

I mean, this is epic!

I'm highly surprised that my informative post advising people of their legal options in the event of a failed KS was deleted.

I was only interested in trying to make sure that no Dakka members end up out of pocket by letting them know their options in advance (which as I'd like to repeat if it's okay with the mods vary depending on your credit card supplier, check with them to make sure that you can still make a chargeback 12 months later in the event of a failed delivery because Kickstarter itself offers you *zero* legal protection).

At no point did I suggest not to back this KS, I simply stated why I wouldn't be and wished good luck to everyone who is backing.

JWBS wrote:
pics of Urbad are up, looks decent.

I like a lot of these sculpts, but Urbad looks like he's squeezing his legs together and reaching behind himself to check if he just gakked his pants.

 helium42 wrote:

JWBS wrote:
pics of Urbad are up, looks decent.

I like a lot of these sculpts, but Urbad looks like he's squeezing his legs together and reaching behind himself to check if he just gakked his pants.

Teeth look a little off too. It's hard to tell the scale, they're selling him for £20 so I suppose he's minotaur or above sizewise, I'll have to see him painted before decide whether to close the mouth.

I don't mind the legs but the hand checking his seat I can't unsee! It's probably not a mini I'd shell out for but as a free KS bonus I'm happy with the sculpt.

I don't think I've seen too many people saying they thought it was akin to a Welsh language class, either...

@scarletsquig going of recent UK precedent you probably can't use chargeback in this instance either

 plastictrees wrote:

 Scrub wrote:
I like how using a single Welsh word here or there, scattered through your fluff, fools people into thinking that the whole thing is using the language legitimately!

I don't think Mierce is pitching the game as "The most authentic Welsh gaming experience on the market!".

Heh, it's not even that. I've listened to quite a few podcasts and read forums (including here) where people moan that they don't understand the fluff, or the names are too difficult to pronounce or even understand because everything is in Welsh, when in fact, the reality is quite different!

There's definitely an influence, some of it quite clever too.

But anyhoo, the miniatures are really absolutely awesome and Urbad is looking grand. I'm still resisting though, the link with the whole Maelstrom fiasco, no matter how tenuous, is giving me second thoughts. Fulfilment of this project could change things, though!

I thought the characters from Fantasy Wales in the game had Welsh derived names, the ones from Fantasy Scotland and Ireland had Gaelic derived names, the Norse are norse and so on.

I guess people are more used to the other languages being looted for fantasy works, but it doesn't bother me that some of the names are in Welsh. I think it would be easier if they spelled the names phonetically instead of with the welsh spellings though because their pronounciation rules are pretty difficult for non speakers. I bet the Welsh players will cringe at mispronounciation the same way I do at people mispronouncing Gaelic names.

So, you only get Urbad if you've pledged before they hit 40K pounds? I guess they saw how magnifenctly that strategy worked for Malifaux and decided they must copy it?

(If I'm misunderstanding something, please ignore )

 RiTides wrote:
So, you only get Urbad if you've pledged before they hit 40K pounds? I guess they saw how magnifenctly that strategy worked for Malifaux and decided they must copy it?

(If I'm misunderstanding something, please ignore )

Nah, once £40K has been passed, every starter will get Urbad, regardless of when they pledged...

 RiTides wrote:
So, you only get Urbad if you've pledged before they hit 40K pounds? I guess they saw how magnifenctly that strategy worked for Malifaux and decided they must copy it?

(If I'm misunderstanding something, please ignore )

Just lifted this from the kickstarter page: "To re-iterate: Urbad will be free with any Starter Set once we get to £40,000."


Seems pretty clear cut to me!

edit:-

Da Boss wrote:
I thought the characters from Fantasy Wales in the game had Welsh derived names, the ones from Fantasy Scotland and Ireland had Gaelic derived names, the Norse are norse and so on.

I guess people are more used to the other languages being looted for fantasy works, but it doesn't bother me that some of the names are in Welsh. I think it would be easier if they spelled the names phonetically instead of with the welsh spellings though because their pronounciation rules are pretty difficult for non speakers. I bet the Welsh players will cringe at mispronounciation the same way I do at people mispronouncing Gaelic names.

I wouldn't cringe at mispronunciations, at least then people are giving it a go!

I guess I've just been a bit surprised by the negativity* and decided to rant a bit, I'll derail the thread no further though, I promise!

*That I've heard in general, not to do with this place.

The £40k stretch goal has been reached - £50k stretch goal revealed with more freebies:

For what its worth, my order that I placed during the Maelstrom closing sale arrived yesterday. Just Darklands/Banebeasts stuff. I'd been in email contact with them since the announcement Mierce would be fulfilling the Darklands/Banebeasts stuff, and they'd been responsive. My order was delayed as their casting shut down at the end of the year, but was shipped pretty promptly after they reopened on the 2nd.

 zedmeister wrote:
The £40k stretch goal has been reached - £50k stretch goal revealed with more freebies:

Oh my, I really really hope you like standard bearers

Yeah, they did call this the wizards and standards update!

 kenshin620 wrote:

 zedmeister wrote:
The £40k stretch goal has been reached - £50k stretch goal revealed with more freebies:

Oh my, I really really hope you like standard bearers

Well, most of them should be easy spear/polearm conversions.

The rat guy doesnt have one. Unless its on the backside of what I assume would be king kong nuts. Since they always sculpt their minis balls out, something based off a rat would be packing about 60mm...

I'm pretty sure Blunt-claw is a standard bearer. His standard is the naked flay skin of a woman, which is kinda morbid.

Angelcynn's Cynemon looks great. Happy I'm pledging for him. I was also gonna go in for the Brythoniaid but Drast the Hunched is definitely my least favourite amongst this group. I'll still be pledging for another group, just not sure which now.

I can't believe people are complaining about Urbad. His teeth? He's an ogre. Crapping his pants and slobbering all over his rotten-ass teeth seems pretty true to form. Unless the definition of ogre changed to "daintily prancing rainbow-coloured unicorns."

Frankly, I've never wanted to buy an ogre mini because they all look god-awful. But that's the point. And he's free, so I won't say no. And giving him a nasty stain on his backside might be just the motivation I need to actually try to paint him up!

And another stretch goal - this time for paid addons:



Glaun is a Bulldragon and is reputed to sit on a 100mm base! Gameplay video will now be revealed Mon/Tues next week

Does Kickstarter prohibit selling naked models?

I bet that the Sword-Melusines would make a killing.

I think he has a couple nude models. They are colored in yellow to hide them. I don't like the sword Melusines. I don't like the sculpting or the overly large fake breasts. If they were done more tastefully I would probably dig them.

LOVE the troll priest/shaman!

The troll is really nice. The best part is that it will be sculpted by Allan Carrasco! We can be sure of quality then.

grefven wrote:
The troll is really nice. The best part is that it will be sculpted by Allan Carrasco! We can be sure of quality then.

That is a big plus for the trolls. I am on the fence between trolls and Ysians infantry for my 2nd faction. One weak point for me on the trolls is the extra/optional figures. They are basically extra stuff already done in the starter set. If they get a big optional figure that I am excited about it could really push me more towards the trolls.

I'd like to see some updates with greens or WIPs of some of the models that are apparently in progress.
The gameplay vid will be important as well, as much from a "this is a genuine effort to make a game" perspective as from interest in the rules themselves.

grefven wrote:
The troll is really nice. The best part is that it will be sculpted by Allan Carrasco! We can be sure of quality then.

Am I right in assuming that you and me both like it more thanks to it's name?

 The CF wrote:

grefven wrote:
The troll is really nice. The best part is that it will be sculpted by Allan Carrasco! We can be sure of quality then.

Am I right in assuming that you and me both like it more thanks to it's name?

Not sure if it is a Swedish take on the name or Danish. If it is Danish then I hate it.

 Alkasyn wrote:
Does Kickstarter prohibit selling naked models?

There are more genitals in this kickstarter than in all other tabletop game kickstarters combined, so no.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Alkasyn wrote:
Does Kickstarter prohibit selling naked models?

There are more genitals in this kickstarter than in all other tabletop game kickstarters combined, so no.

And that's bad because... why, exactly??

I like a Kuckstarter with some balls!


Wait...

We've hit the £50K stretch - It'll be interesting to see what they come up with for £60K. (Is it bad that I went to search for these mysterious balls?)

I keep considering jumping in, but none of the army boxes "feel" very cohesive. The ysian brutes just look like a mash up of whatever figures don't belong in any other army. They feel forced together, like a troll army that is only Norse because there is one Norse looking guy in the whole army.

I'd like to back this, but when I can order the models through the warstore.com and be assured of getting them, and not have to worry about another company folding I'll pay the little bit extra for it. Might even wind up the same after shipping costs.

I'm glad that the rules will come out for this game, I'm not looking for another tabletop game, but anything that can take some money from GW to help wake them up will be appreciated.

I am not sure I agree with you, Theophony. I find them very cohesive. It is rather about the background story and them working with what is currently available. It isnt like they have 50 figures in a big pot and then randomly assign them to various factions.

The brutes might look a bit wierd, but if you read up on the fluff behind them, they too are rather cohesive. 5 brutes, 3 goaders (that direct the brutes in battle), 1 human general... And the odd bit is the manticore (which is designed to be a monster for them by the fluff).

Also there's a significant savings at this point. Most of the 80 pound sets now have over 200 pounds worth of product. (warstore sells at roughly 10-20% off)

There's a pricing breakdown somewhere, can't locate it right now.

 judgedoug wrote:
Also there's a significant savings at this point. Most of the 80 pound sets now have over 200 pounds worth of product. (warstore sells at roughly 10-20% off)

There's a pricing breakdown somewhere, can't locate it right now.

I get the pricing difference, but you have to look at shipping and the guarantee of getting the goods. I don't want to drag the owner over the coals again, but I am still not comfortable with mierce/mg/name of the week's ability to actually follow up on all of their promises.

I haven't gotten into the fluff that deeply, so if they have it worked out where the rhino-guys, squid-dude, and giant four armed chick all have a decent story great. I like the look of the squid-dude, he and the four armed chick would be great stand ins for keeper of secrets in my all Juan Diaz deamonette army.

If mierce gets there act together I think this would be great, they just have too much of a stigma attached to them for me to support fully at this time. I hope they right themselves and become a great system that everyone can enjoy.

Theophony wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Also there's a significant savings at this point. Most of the 80 pound sets now have over 200 pounds worth of product. (warstore sells at roughly 10-20% off)

There's a pricing breakdown somewhere, can't locate it right now.

I get the pricing difference, but you have to look at shipping and the guarantee of getting the goods. I don't want to drag the owner over the coals again, but I am still not comfortable with mierce/mg/name of the week's ability to actually follow up on all of their promises.

I haven't gotten into the fluff that deeply, so if they have it worked out where the rhino-guys, squid-dude, and giant four armed chick all have a decent story great. I like the look of the squid-dude, he and the four armed chick would be great stand ins for keeper of secrets in my all Juan Diaz deamonette army.

If mierce gets there act together I think this would be great, they just have too much of a stigma attached to them for me to support fully at this time. I hope they right themselves and become a great system that everyone can enjoy.

Sure thing. Not saying you can't have your own opinion, I know a lot lot of people are taking a wait-and-see approach, and that's totally 100% understandable.

Personally, I supported McVey studios (and therefore David Doust & CMON) by getting Sedition Wars, I'm supporting the sculptors for Mierce (and therefore Rob Lane etc) by buying into this KS.

There SHOULD be a video up tonight explaining the rules and maybe showing some background information.

I am looking forward to a video explaining the Mierce world's background

Three Stretches In One Day

We've been a little quiet over the past couple of days, but that's because we've been beavering away on our gameplay video. To make up for that, and to get those pledges going before the video goes up, we're adding three stretch goals today to bring us right up to nearly £70,000...!

Here's the first one, at £60,000:



As we've had so many requests for this, the £60,000 Stretch Goal allows anyone to increase their pledge for the "freebie" miniatures for other kindreds and most of the characters from the Starter Set rewards. Going for the Dyndraig, but fancy Carrowek because he's such a cool miniature? Grab him here!

On to £65,000...



The next Stretch Goal, the £65,000 one, brings in one new miniature - Dungann, an Albainn Oghurithne who accompanies Urbad on his travels and can ally with anyone, as he's a Sell-Sword too! He carries a big Oghu stone around with him and it could, just could, be magical...

As well as him, there's the option to get hold of the Duguth and Ax-Drune Warriors to increase the size of your units or just add a Dyndraig, Srónax or Troll Unit to your host.

Not only those, but also: we've added Talos of the Atalantes, Ulmons of the Byzantii - as well as Scar-Scath for the Vras, who ally with the Ysians - for those who just want some cool models!

Lastly, but not leastly, here's the dastardly...



...and rather mighty Krull! Standing 165mm from top to toe Krull is probably our most impressive miniature and, rather appropriately, comes at the £66,666(and probably .66p) level. He will wipe the floor with just about anything else at the moment (barring the other really large miniatures) but he's so amazing and we've had so many requests that here he is...

As always, you're getting great deals here - around a third off - so get them now while you have the chance!

£70,000 Stretch Goal - Freebies!

The stretch goal after Krull - which we'll reveal once we get to £60,000 - will include some freebies... so get pledging!

Remember, too, the gameplay video will be up tomorrow!

Lastly, the usual gubbins, of course:

If you want to keep your pledge "in kindred" have a look at the kindred symbols on the Starter Sets and the image above (as well any stretch goal images). You can choose additional miniatures for the kindred you've chosen or anything you desire - perhaps for a painting project!

You're not limited in any way by our Kickstarter and you can increase your pledge level by the amounts shown above and choose what you want at checkout when the Kickstarter ends.

Please note, there are no additional shipping fees if you've already chosen a Starter Set!

I'm really hoping they add some more 'MINOTAURS' to the Tarvax. I decided that I was going to get them as my army, and the Sronax as a second. Then I realized I had bought both of the Minotaurs previously, and I didn't want any of the Galabrax (beastmen goat dudes), so I just switched to the Snorax only, and just added Tarvax warriors, saved £40!

There's so many cool models in this line, I really hope that any rules for it are cohesive and fun to play with. Though, I'm really just interested in the models anyway, so I won't shed a tear if the rules are terrible, it would just be a nice surprise.

Krull at £75 is quite the steal. :p

grefven wrote:
Krull at £75 is quite the steal. :p

For those who didn't manage to extract one from Maelstrom as they lay there twitching, I suppose it is! :-)

Word to the wise, Krull is an awesome figure, I can't wait to field mine, but he isn't a project for the novice, several delicate pieces with only small contact areas.

There's so many pins in mine if you x-rayed him he'd look like a retired stuntman!.

Worth the effort though.

No minotaurs at $65k?!

Kull is the one I've been waiting to see in this. I will have to jump in, wallet be damned!

I'll just use the argument my wife always comes out with "just look at all the money I saved!"

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
No minotaurs at $65k?!

Kull is the one I've been waiting to see in this. I will have to jump in, wallet be damned!

I'll just use the argument my wife always comes out with "just look at all the money I saved!"

Just paint him to look good with your favorite gaming clothes, then say that you needed it for any upcoming event. Then duck and cover.

I had one of the early pledges to see how the deal was going to turn out, but I've pulled out because I've not been tempted to invest. So there's one up for grabs now.

New update and they've just posted a gameplay video:

MierceMiniatures wrote:
It's been a while in coming but we've finally sorted out our short Darklands QuickStarter gameplay video for you all!

Before you watch it, please bear in mind that we have deliberately not shown anything advanced - just the simple game mechanics of initiative, movement and combat. We touch on Orders and some actions, too, so you will get the general feel of things. There are many things in the QuickStarter rules - even in this short gameplay video - that we've deliberately left out, such as push backs, fleeing, magic and so forth. Also remember that we are showing you the QuickStarter rules and NOT the full game which we are still playtesting!

The link: https://vimeo.com/59008628

Questions, Questions...

I'm sure most of you will have many questions after this video so feel free to ask away on the comments section of this update. We will endeavour to answer all of your questions, but if you ask about something we don't want to reveal yet then I'm afraid you'll have to be patient and wait for the rules to be in your hands.

Gameplay Video Reference

We've also given you a small reference PDF to better follow the gameplay video. We suggest you print this document and keep the matrices and the characteristics in front of you when you listen!

You can find the Gameplay Video Reference document here.

Finally...

Finally, thanks for all your patience! We are, it has to be said, video-making noobs and we apologise without reservation for how long its taken to get this up and running as well as our northern English manner and much getting things wrong and so forth.

Also thanks to Dave Speed for the loan of his equipment for the video ;o)

First impressions are that I can definitely see some influence from Epic and BFG (a good thing for me) - the orders and unit activations for one. Also love how warriors get weaker as they become more wounded.

I don't get it. That video is super simple with almost zero editing, sound effects, zooms, pans or stuff. I could've filmed and edited that in a single day WITHOUT any time problems.

For me this is clearly a single game session filmed and afterwards some gaps had been removed.

That's it. Super simple

They should've posted this video on Day ONE. Not 20 days into the project.

And the rules seem utterly complicated.

I like the way a monster gets weaker and weaker the more you hack away at it.

I have a distinct lack of funds until payday, but I'm very tempted to pledge £10 just now and then up it to £550 and just take as much as I can.

Why? You can pledge 550 now; it onlu gets charged to your cc by project's end...

Because payday is after the project ends of course...

...ah. Ks does try to take failed pledges until a week after project end (two weeks on ks us) - that might help?

 Bolognesus wrote:
...ah. Ks does try to take failed pledges until a week after project end (two weeks on ks us) - that might help?

Hmm it does? I thought that was the Project Maker themselves putting up a pledge manager for late backers/etc

That was probably using the Amazon payment system. Not sure how it'll cope with Debit/Credit cards?

Zond wrote:
Because payday is after the project ends of course...

Just put down the requisite tenner and then contact the creator to see if you can up your pledge after the project? The worst they can say is no...

Two different things,kenshin
Maybe emailing mierce about it now is best? They seem to really, really try to earn back some goodwill wherever they can so they might just accommodate this just fine.

**especially** if you're willing to ploink down 550 quid

I fired off a quick email and the response was that it should be fine. A little less concrete than I'd like, but the £10 will still be well spent and if I can't up my pledge dramatically then I'm sure I'll find something else to blow my money on.

Some WIPs on Glaun, available for £34 (stretch goal £55k). Looks quite awesome.

Preview of petroyos to be sculpted by Dan Cockersell



looks like 70k will be free Dice, tokens and templates for each starter set.

For those who are still nervous about the Maelstrom connection; I'd ordered about £800 of Darklands stuff from them when Maelstrom was going down, some for people in my gaming group, but most for me, spread across three orders. I was very careful going through each box, and when I ended up missing two models, I contacted Mierce and let them know. They not only sent me the two I was missing, but included a little £10 miniature for the inconvenience. Not only has this reassured me that they're committed to making good on what they could, but they're even interested in doing what they can to repair their reputation. Their communication with me was excellent the entire time (even though their shipping process is slow), and they responded to my e-mails as quickly as they could (when I send something to them in the afternoon in Texas, they're already off the clock).
I know it's just one story, but if they were going to shaft an order, mine was big enough that it would have been a nice chunk of free money, and would have only pissed off one person.
I'm in on the Kickstarter, and am eager to see what's ahead! If you're willing to make the leap but were on the fence because you're worried you won't get stuff, hopefully this will help reassure you. If not, I completely understand.

grefven wrote:
Some WIPs on Glaun, available for £34 (stretch goal £55k). Looks quite awesome.

Slaughterbrute?

I'm thinking of dropping my ~ £120 pledge ... Firestorm Armada is just so nice that I want to build a fully-fledge fleet first :(

 razormage wrote:
For those who are still nervous about the Maelstrom connection; I'd ordered about £800 of Darklands stuff from them when Maelstrom was going down, some for people in my gaming group, but most for me, spread across three orders. I was very careful going through each box, and when I ended up missing two models, I contacted Mierce and let them know. They not only sent me the two I was missing, but included a little £10 miniature for the inconvenience. Not only has this reassured me that they're committed to making good on what they could, but they're even interested in doing what they can to repair their reputation. Their communication with me was excellent the entire time (even though their shipping process is slow), and they responded to my e-mails as quickly as they could (when I send something to them in the afternoon in Texas, they're already off the clock).
I know it's just one story, but if they were going to shaft an order, mine was big enough that it would have been a nice chunk of free money, and would have only pissed off one person.
I'm in on the Kickstarter, and am eager to see what's ahead! If you're willing to make the leap but were on the fence because you're worried you won't get stuff, hopefully this will help reassure you. If not, I completely understand.

I had a £240 non mierce and back ordered miniatures. I got my stuff 4 months late but I still got it. Everything is good with me. I wasn't expecting anything after I saw all the doom on the forums.

Same experience as razormage and Mahrdol. I was in only for 100 pounds in Mierce stuff but they were quick to respond when I asked questions. I also got everything from MM that I ordered during the final sale. Anything that I had placed an earlier order for that they were still waiting to fulfill didn't make it... but I was able to cancel that thru paypal.

And Mierce quality is just too good to pass up for anyone who takes pride in their painting.

RoninXiC wrote:

grefven wrote:
Some WIPs on Glaun, available for £34 (stretch goal £55k). Looks quite awesome.

Slaughterbrute?

I'm thinking of dropping my ~ £120 pledge ... Firestorm Armada is just so nice that I want to build a fully-fledge fleet first :(

I'll sell you my terran starter dirt cheap

behold Belech

That's a very cool concept sketch.

Mierce is usually pretty good at turning concept sketches into awesome miniatures too...

I wish they would release some more Vras (ie. "not Skaven") models.

 Alpharius wrote:
That's a very cool concept sketch.

Mierce is usually pretty good at turning concept sketches into awesome miniatures too...

I think having good concept sketches is pretty important. You can have the best sculptor and if he gets a bad concept the miniature will not look so good.

Altruizine wrote:
I wish they would release some more Vras (ie. "not Skaven") models.

I totally hope so too. The not-Skaven available right now are great. I really hope they expand that range next.

Nice concept for sure. He's the son of Baalor and I can see some undersea vibe with him.

As for the Vras, oddly we've not seen Quick Blade in this KS so far, the last miniature currently available not to appear. Wonder if he's being held back because he's got a bunch of mates to go with him ready to be unleashed with a higher stretch goal...?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and here's the £70k stretch:



Kindred specific counters and dice

My guess to why Quick-Blade hasn't made an apperance in this KS yet is because Ysians already got a standard-bearer of their race, and it wouldn't make the same "sense" to introduce another standard-bearer for them. Only reason I can think of.

One thing to note about the above concept- I owned Shaaroc, and the skulls on the models were WAY out of proportion to blend in with 28mm models. It's possible it's that way on the above model, or on other large models that they make- I can't say because I only ever owned one.

razormage/Mahrdol/greywulf, it's great that your experience turned out fine, but remember that if you want to bring Maelstrom up for discussion, you are opening the floodgates to all the others who DIDN'T have a good experience and got ripped off. So, best to "let it lie" as it were, if you're in favor of this campaign, as bringing it up means it will be responded to with the other point of view, too.

I'm curious as to the Templars Forge branding on the tokens. Wasn't that Maelstroms in-house accessories branch? Has Mierce bought them out as well?

I'd assumed Templars Forge was no more.

Yes, I'm pretty sure Templar Forge was transferred with the bulk of Bane Legions/Beasts...

Since I first discovered Mierce in August 2012 Templar's Forge has always had a section on their website.

So they do, but it just seems odd they'd be continuing the Templars Forge brand as it's got no real value is an heavily associated with Maelstrom Games. I thought it'd have looked better to have them Mierce branded.

I'm just hoping we get to that stretch goal - there's a lot of value in there (I don't want to mess about trying to sort out my own order tokens and so forth). The £75K stretch is up tomorrow, hopefully that will get us moving.

Glaun looks too cool to miss out on. I've changed my pledge to include the Dyndraig with the Angelcynn (given they can ally together) and that way I have the basis of two starter forces or one big one.

Over £65k now.

£75,000 Stretch Goal is up!


Belech is, quote, "daemon prince size".

Does that Blech daemon have a brother called Yuck?

I have decided not to get the mother of my three children anything for Valentines Day (maybe a card) and drop £200 on this KS instead....I'm already nervous about her reaction

Denilsta wrote:
I have decided not to get the mother of my three children anything for Valentines Day (maybe a card) and drop £200 on this KS instead....I'm already nervous about her reaction

Gasp, not even a box of chocolates?

Some closeups:

Ceonwulf


Hywel Hir


Chaagmuth on foot


Belech


Pétroyos


Brynhild Gunnblindi

I really like this concept

Leofwen

Whoa whoa whoa. Who is she for?

Leofwn is for the Angelcyn

and seems to be a paid add on (£20) if we hit the 85K stretch

(I really hope it explodes enough to get there, and they get a sculptor who can do 'delicate' rather than sword melusines)

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

and they get a sculptor who can do 'delicate' rather than sword melusines

Oh yes

I dont want to hear another post about "You dont get it!" even though the sculpt is clearly blarg

 kenshin620 wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

and they get a sculptor who can do 'delicate' rather than sword melusines

Oh yes

I dont want to hear another post about "You dont get it!" even though the sculpt is clearly blarg

Ugh.
I checked them out again a few weeks ago to see if paint had helped those models out.
Nope.

It's a shame as the art is great for them

now whether it's something i'd want is another question, but as female 'artificial beauty' they are a good counterpart to the male 'artificial strength' of the brutes

but the sculps just didn't hold up to the concepts

 kenshin620 wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

and they get a sculptor who can do 'delicate' rather than sword melusines

Oh yes

I dont want to hear another post about "You dont get it!" even though the sculpt is clearly blarg

I think you are being generous in your evaluation Worst figures in the entire line.

With the exception of the dark elf banner bearer and the not-Keeper of Secrets, this line has been very miss with female figures.

I have the two anglycn females. They're both quite nice.

 cincydooley wrote:
I have the two anglycn females. They're both quite nice.

Meloda looks decent. Aethelgryffindor looks a little awkward in any pictures I've seen.

I'll have to respectfully disagree with Orlando as to the quality of the art.
I think if they had gone with something like the Kingdom Death pinups with huge swords and sight obscuring celtic death masks of some kind they could have been on to something, but they missed that in concept and especially in sculpt.

Trying to work out my final pledge for this right now. Really like the Dragon dudes, but I don't like their Scottish buddies that have padded that line.

I like meloda. Not too hot on Æthelglyth

The Sword melusine are horrible.

I see Stéphane Simon did The Rose of Ker-Ys. His stuff is so much better.

The Meloda sculpt for Angelcynn is also good IMO.

http://www.mierce-miniatures.com/index.php?act=pro&pre=mrm_dkl_ang_mrc_wld_002_000

She has very 'classical' proportions that you rarely see in minis nowadays. Only Morland Studios has impressed me with a similar classical art influence.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/533848957/morland-studios-54mm-howard-david-johnson-miniatur?ref=search