cincydooley wrote: Okay, so two stories into Mark of Calth and I'm moderately happy so far. The Erebus story is..okay. Nothing bad, nothing special. The McNeill story is quite good. He goes for a present tense like Abnett in Know No Fear and it doesn't work quite as well, but his characterization is pretty fantastic.
Anthony Reynolds up next!
I'm just a little behind you as I haven't finished, "Calth That Was" but the Erebus story was interesting if nothing more than for the jump in space and time that seemed fluid. I'm really enjoying Calth That Was, Mark of Calth has been a solid read so far (picked it up not even realizing it was a collection of short stories . Not even mad.
Also, did people enjoy Fear to Tread. I could have sworn it got some flak here, but I've been enjoying it for the past 2 weeks.
I don't think Fear to Tread is bad, but the problem for me was that it was a bit lacking. It's our first taste of the Blood Angels, and there's very little done to expand their background or explain more about them. When juxtaposed with Prospero Burns, or Thousand Sons, or even Know No Fear, it's a bit underwhelming.
cincydooley wrote: Okay, so two stories into Mark of Calth and I'm moderately happy so far. The Erebus story is..okay. Nothing bad, nothing special. The McNeill story is quite good. He goes for a present tense like Abnett in Know No Fear and it doesn't work quite as well, but his characterization is pretty fantastic.
Anthony Reynolds up next!
I'm just a little behind you as I haven't finished, "Calth That Was" but the Erebus story was interesting if nothing more than for the jump in space and time that seemed fluid. I'm really enjoying Calth That Was, Mark of Calth has been a solid read so far (picked it up not even realizing it was a collection of short stories . Not even mad.
Also, did people enjoy Fear to Tread. I could have sworn it got some flak here, but I've been enjoying it for the past 2 weeks.
I don't think Fear to Tread is bad, but the problem for me was that it was a bit lacking. It's our first taste of the Blood Angels, and there's very little done to expand their background or explain more about them. When juxtaposed with Prospero Burns, or Thousand Sons, or even Know No Fear, it's a bit underwhelming.
I'm only about halfway through Fear to Tread, even though I have been trying to read it since it came out. I've found nothing wrong with the story so far but at some points James Swallow's writing has left me cringing.
In places it feels like he is trying to follow Adnett's lead and move away from bolter porn into 'real' writing but he isn't good at it.
My conclusion with James Swallow is, you can tell he's not "really" a novelist. However, he is a better screen/scriptwriter which is why his audiodramas (the Garro series) are much better. It's also why Fear to Tread is MUCH more enjoyable as an audio book than actually reading it.
Conversely, "Know no fear" made a very poor audiobook, which took me literally months to slog through compared to days actually reading the novel.
this was a limited edition novella from .eerrrrr... quitesometimeago.
.. Kind of key to the final chapter/arc of the Soul Drinkers saga ... ( at least as it is so far anyway eh ...) so was somewhat baffling that this isn't included in the swanky looking new omnibus books for this series.
From FB, with reference to The Bloody Handed and Iron Warrior
both of those titles are available as standalone eBooks and in print as part of the Sundering and Iron Warriors Omnibus respectively. We don't have them on the schedule yet for standalone print editions, but that doesn't mean they won't appear in the future.
I remember reading Gileads Blood back when it first came out.
It's a very marmite book - some people see it as an example of one of GW's best stories. Others (including me), see it as a dreich, depressing novel that is only matched by Tolkein's Tale of Turin Turambar.
Some news from the HH days, posted by Aryllon over at Warseer:
Gav thorpe talking about a eldar fall/pheonix lords series possubly in thr future along similar lines 1up HH Ideally no more than 6 months between Massacre and the next book (Battle of Phall)...
(...)
Abnett wants to do Unification Wars books
Bowdens next novel will deal with Legio Custodes.
We will not see Xenos in 30K.
I used to get excited about new releases, now I don't really care, knowing how long I'll have to wait. I've got 170-plus mmpb novels, what the hell do I want with proxy ebooks?
farmersboy wrote: I used to get excited about new releases, now I don't really care, knowing how long I'll have to wait. I've got 170-plus mmpb novels, what the hell do I want with proxy ebooks?
I know the feeling.
I miss the days when I'd know exactly what was coming out that month because three months prior I'd have been on the BL site already planning my purchases.
Agreed, i used to order at LEAST 70% of BL releases on Amazon months before they came out and always be checking the sites 'coming soon' section for my next read.
These days i find it very hard to get excited about their stuff.
Oh and i dont do ebooks. Not for me. I miss Hammer and Bolter.
The Luddite normal sized dead tree loving brigade aren't the only ones locked out of new releases for nine months. You have to pay a near 100% mark-up on the ebooks for the first nine months of release. Not for me.
Temujin wrote: The Luddite normal sized dead tree loving brigade aren't the only ones locked out of new releases for nine months. You have to pay a near 100% mark-up on the ebooks for the first nine months of release. Not for me.
Thats just insane. Does the data storage cost more for those nine months or something?
Temujin wrote: The Luddite normal sized dead tree loving brigade aren't the only ones locked out of new releases for nine months. You have to pay a near 100% mark-up on the ebooks for the first nine months of release. Not for me.
Thats just insane. Does the data storage cost more for those nine months or something?
no, he is referring to the fact that they are now releasing the eBook version of the new hardbacks as "enhanced eBooks"...
they now cost $15.99, and have the illustrations and afterword that the $30.00 hardback have, too...
you can choose to wait 9 months for the $7.99 version, without art and afterword...
personally, i'm happy with the eBooks...
before i moved to Mexico, i was getting Gaunt's Ghosts, Ultramarines, Cain, etc., in hardback on release from my local discount retailer for $17.50 instead of $24.99...
that was 3 years ago, and more...
now i don't have that option, but even better, i'm still saving money with the eBooks, and get to read them even before the hardbacks are released from GW...
obviously, plenty of fans don't agree, but i'm stoked...
Mark of Calth was good, and Fist of Demetrius is great...
Seventh Retribution is about to get picked up again, with Deathwatch and Headtaker waiting in the wings...
there are plenty of cool new releases in my queue...
With regards to the e-books, Steve Parker posted the following with regards to his ( most enjoyable) Deathwatch novel
Just a heads-up. If you haven't bought my latest novel, Deathwatch, yet and are wondering if you should get the paperback version or the e-book version, please note: the paperback version includes my original 'as intended' formatting. The e-book version, however, seems to have lost all the italics which indicate inner monologue - making certain sections a little confusing to read - and the footnote details are at the back of the book instead of on the relevant page (unlike the paperback, which is perfectly formatted).
All in all, I'd strongly recommend you get the paperback version this time.
This grieves me, since I'm a guy who essentially hates the pulp and paper industry, but if you want to read Deatchwatch as it was meant to be read, formatted as I intended, then the paperback is the best way to go.
That is all. As you were, troopers.
which strikes me as being similar to an issue that cropped up with the last Cain novel IIRC ...?
And swiped from Warseer, presumably from the HH weekender
which would possibly appear about the void war a'twixt the WS, AL and SW ...
reds8n wrote: With regards to the e-books, Steve Parker posted the following with regards to his ( most enjoyable) Deathwatch novel
Just a heads-up. If you haven't bought my latest novel, Deathwatch, yet and are wondering if you should get the paperback version or the e-book version, please note: the paperback version includes my original 'as intended' formatting. The e-book version, however, seems to have lost all the italics which indicate inner monologue - making certain sections a little confusing to read - and the footnote details are at the back of the book instead of on the relevant page (unlike the paperback, which is perfectly formatted).
All in all, I'd strongly recommend you get the paperback version this time.
This grieves me, since I'm a guy who essentially hates the pulp and paper industry, but if you want to read Deatchwatch as it was meant to be read, formatted as I intended, then the paperback is the best way to go.
That is all. As you were, troopers.
which strikes me as being similar to an issue that cropped up with the last Cain novel IIRC ...?
And swiped from Warseer, presumably from the HH weekender
which would possibly appear about the void war a'twixt the WS, AL and SW ...
.. and maybe someone else... ?
i'm reading Deathwatch right now, and the iBooks version still has the inner monologue lines in italics...
not only that, but a new feature i noticed is that the footnotes are live links...
when you click on the footnote number, it takes you to the list at the back really quick, and then touching the number in the footnotes takes you right back to page you were reading...
it's a cool little touch...
Parker must be reading his own book on a Kindle, because he couldn't have been more wrong about the version i'm reading...
If only the thing was on some sort of digital format where these sort of errors could be easily replaced by creating a corrected version available to then be... downloaded.
Just finished Betrayer - figured I'd treat myself and splurge on the larger paperback - and was wholly disappointed and really wouldn't recommend it (despite it being AD-B, I know).
Ultimately, my general dissatisfaction can be attributed mainly to the portrayed ineptitude of the Ultramarines and Roboute Guilliman, and the unbelievable abilities of the World Eaters and Word Bearers. The book appeared to be a story about Kharn and Argel Tal's jaunty stroll - as they (literally) kick chainswords up into the air to catch with their hands - through the massed ranks of Ultramarines; who themselves are defeated at every turn and overcome through the World Eaters being very, very angry. With the events described in the novel, it would be hard to believe that there are [m]any Ultramarines or World Eaters left, not that there was or should be many of the latter anyway. Likewise, too many times were events described as against the odds or hugely lucky.
Really, my discontent is excellently covered in this review off amazon (although I also found the pacing troublesome, which wasn't mentioned); with this and other reviews suggesting I'm not alone in my opinion:
Spoiler:
I'm a fan of the Horus Heresy series and a big fan of Dembski-Bowden who is one of the outstanding writers in the Black Library stable. His writing here is of his usual high calibre with punchy, immersive battle scenes and some excellent characterisation but the problems with the novel are too big to ignore. Some minor spoilers below -
One of the highlights is his sympathetic portrayal of rebellious primarchs Angron and Lorgar. They are shown to be warm, thoughtful, intelligent beings, neither of whom believes they are evil but rather are victims of desecration of their honour by the emperor and the Butcher's nails (Angron) or doing what is necessary to lay bare the emperor's lies and reveal an, albeit unpalatable, truth (Lorgar). Their monstrousness is more subtly revealed by the barely mentioned but obvious fact that the background to their actions is the destruction of civilizations and the ending of billions of ordinary human lives, which they seem barely to notice in pursuit of their personal desires. The background to why Lorgar and Angron are as they are is explored and draws the chain of events leading to the heresy past Horus' vanity and Erebus' machinations back to the Emperor's own actions more potently in this book than in most of the others in the series.
Battle highlights are the titan battles and void combat. There are also great non-combat plotlines such as the continuation of Argal Tal's storyline in an unexpected but satisfying direction and the development of Kharn. There are great new characters such as Lotara Sarrin the world eaters flag-captain and other human and mechanicum characters. In the great non-astartes characters he creates the author tackles the question of how the World Eater's legion could be kept running if all Angron and his space marines want to do is charge the enemy head on at every opportunity. Its a well done reversal of the usual 'even though they were created to be warrior-servants of the teeming human multitudes the god like space marines do everything brilliantly and just allow the humans to tag along'. How Angron's insistance on his marines having the Butcher's nails is destroying the legion and how they cling to brotherhood as everything else that usually defines a space marine is stripped away is movingly explored.
Unfortunately there are also such big holes in the novel's plausibility that they can't be covered over by the quality of the description and characters.
Running at the enemy whilst shouting wins everytime: The problem is that in highlighting the problem with the Butcher's nails and the importance of the non-marine characters, Dembski-Bowden repeatedly points out that the World Eaters are like rabid animals with poor tactics, poor unit cohesion, poor communications, little battlefield command (what tactical direction there is comes from the human flag-captain), friendly fire incidents, little use of combined arms (eg their titan legion bemoans its loss rate as higher than other legions because the world eater marines just don't work in concert with them), poor battlefield discipline, a high casualty rate etc. Despite this we have to believe they slaughter their way through vast numbers of Ultramarines, the most tactically sophisticated, numerous, disciplined, brilliantly led etc legion, on their own territory. And the reason they can do this? Well, its repeatedly explained that its because they are aggressive. Snarling and waving your chainaxe around whilst charging at the enemy slightly more often than you charge your own battle brothers pretty much trumps any fancy tactical, superior firepower, or other nonsense the enemy might try and will always win the day. And even if your casualty rate is stupidly high your legion will somehow never get worn down by attrition. Its so daft that it seriously undermines the whole book.
Nobody minds being a traitor: The World Eater human and mechanicum characters in the story are all well described and easy to relate to. They are described as normal people doing their various military jobs. In fact, if you weren't told they were working with the World Eaters you'd probably assume they were loyal imperial citizens. There is absolutely nothing to indicate why any of these characters has turned against the Emperor. One of the major mechanicum characters even keeps a scroll message sent to him from the Emperor because it is precious to him and seems to still consider the Emperor as the Omnissiah he worships. Even odder than this is the reaction of a squad of World Eater dreadnoughts who are woken up having, with one exception, been asleep since not just before the heresy but before Angron was even found. The exception is the former legion master, appointed by the Emperor himself to run the legion until the primarch was found and who ended up in a dreadnought sarcophagus because his mad primarch nearly killed him just after his discovery. On being woken they are given a data upload which explains that their new Primarch - whom some had never met -is part of a rebellion to overthrow the Emperor - whom they were all loyally serving when they went to sleep - and they now need to go kill some loyalist space marines. They all just go off and do it without any indication of being troubled. 'Hey wake up. Listen, I know you loved and served the Emperor and were willing to give your lives for his vision of a galaxy wide imperium where humans would be safe and prosperous when you were last awake but we want to destroy the imperium you nearly died to forge, slaughter billions of the innocent then kill him and anyone who serves him, is that OK?' 'Uh, yeah, sure, count me in.'
Legion fighting legion? That's unthinkable before the heresy..oh, no, wait, no it isn't: One of the tropes that has kept recurring throughout the Horus Heresy series, especially in the early books, is how unthinkable marine fighting marine was before the heresy. Most major characters have agonized over it at some point, the news of it happening has been greeted with shock and disbelief, an ultramine character in Know no Fear was punished for having even contemplated the possibility of it. In Betrayer, the author casually drops in that the Space Wolves and the World Eaters had a full on pitched battle well before the heresy, used by Leman Russ to try to teach Angron a lesson. Which rather makes a mockery of the 'battle brother against battle brother has turned our whole perception of reality upside down its so impossible to even comprehend' lament that characters in the earlier books keep spouting.
Finally there is a personal annoyance - In the 40k universe humanity has spread across the galaxy to every imaginable ecosphere over tens of millenia but, with the exception of the Salamanders chapter who are all black, everyone seems to be white (or sometimes 'dusky' (ie meditteranean)). Not only in the novels but the artwork on model box covers, books, posters or the painted models in White Dwarf every month. Dembski-Bowden tackles this by pointing out in his novel that, unlike other chapters, the World Eaters are drawn from a vast mixture of ethnic types. He points this out immediately before having the only obviously black character, Delvarus, (who comes from a jungle, of course), being taught a much needed lesson in honour and brotherhood by a number of his more noble comrades who, where their ethnicity is described, are white. As one scene in one novel it doesn't really matter but, rather depressingly, it just seems part of the same unspoken and pervasive leaning in GW products. I have to admit, I (JD) didn't notice this bit.
So, the great writing we have come to expect from one of Black library's best writers, marred most particularly by the impossible need to make the utterly tactically inept World Eaters conquer everything in their path and for important characters to be traitors without any obvious reason. Buy it second hand on ebay, don't spend a tenner on it new.
Between this and the disappointing Angel Exterminatus, as well as the motivation-draining changes to Black Library policy, I think I may be finished with the Horus Heresy series once I've completed my own project which relies on its information.
Between this and the disappointing Angel Exterminatus, as well as the motivation-draining changes to Black Library policy, I think I may be finished with the Horus Heresy series once I've completed my own project which relies on its information.
This is VERY troubling news - especially as a highly vlaue your opinion on these things...
Compel wrote: If only the thing was on some sort of digital format where these sort of errors could be easily replaced by creating a corrected version available to then be... downloaded.
As it happens BL were/are aware of the issue with .mobi format and an update will occur imminently.
It was a very good review, and as to the point about the World Eater from the jungle...
//initiate Kanluwen Spoiler Spam//
Spoiler:
Delvarus wasn't "taught" a lesson by his more noble brothers because of his inherent ethnicity, which the author of the review seems to leave out, but it was because he left his assigned post to go and get glory on the battlefield for himself. Because of his actions, thousands, yes literally thousands, of the legion's serfs and crew members were killed because they were left defenseless. So they had to wake up the dreadnoughts which then means, now they have to explain to the dreads why they're fighting space marines... But Delvarus's homeworld ethnicity has nothing to do with his actual punishment, it was a far more bloody and brutal version of the Soap Party scene in Full Metal Jacket. It was members of Delvarus's legion teaching him the errors for abandoning his post. Glory for one at the cost of resources to the Legion is a punishable offense. With Angron being the way he is, I doubt the Primarch would have doled out punishment, and so it fell upon the individual leaders of pieces of the chapter to keep the Legion in line.
As to the idea of the World Eaters charging forth, I think that AD-B and many of the other Black Library authors tend tos how the resiliency and the strength the Legiones Astartes have to win a fight. While the Ultramarines on the planet didn't have much to fight for, they were defending their planet against attack, they were caught unawares (due to communications from Calth being down, no word from the Primarch, etc...) they didn't have anything worth fighting for. The reason why the World Eaters will push and push and push is because they are constantly fighting for release from the Nails. They are drug addicts pure and simple, they are trained killers seeking to finally reach the peace and Nirvana that the Nails promises them, which is why they break formation, which is why they lose more men than they should, and it's why they are able to win the impossible fights they do, because even when their legs are broken and their arms are maimed, the World Eaters need that release from the Nails bite. I think the only other legion that might know their pain are the Blood Angels during Fear to Tread, while many people didn't like the novel, I felt it was another good idea as to what the Angels would go to to win against impossible odds. They fought man, daemon, and sometimes Astartes (If you were the Flesh Tearer), and they nearly lost themselves, but they also fought the very nature that simmered beneath the surface waiting to explode to the surface and ruin a legion. And yet, a handful of the Legion pushed forward and made it to the Cathedral of the Mark to face the Daemons inside, the librarians fought against the edicts of the Imperium and they all nearly gave their lives to save their Primarch... I think that is what we as readers can come to take from many of these recent stories is that the Space Marines will push beyond their limits to achieve victory...
Between this and the disappointing Angel Exterminatus, as well as the motivation-draining changes to Black Library policy, I think I may be finished with the Horus Heresy series once I've completed my own project which relies on its information.
This is VERY troubling news - especially as a highly vlaue your opinion on these things...
Troubling times!
Thanks man.
You tell that to Black Library though!
Actually, I emailed them about my discontent before and they never replied...
Alfndrate wrote:It was a very good review, and as to the point about the World Eater from the jungle...
//initiate Kanluwen Spoiler Spam//
Spoiler:
Delvarus wasn't "taught" a lesson by his more noble brothers because of his inherent ethnicity, which the author of the review seems to leave out, but it was because he left his assigned post to go and get glory on the battlefield for himself. Because of his actions, thousands, yes literally thousands, of the legion's serfs and crew members were killed because they were left defenseless. So they had to wake up the dreadnoughts which then means, now they have to explain to the dreads why they're fighting space marines... But Delvarus's homeworld ethnicity has nothing to do with his actual punishment, it was a far more bloody and brutal version of the Soap Party scene in Full Metal Jacket. It was members of Delvarus's legion teaching him the errors for abandoning his post. Glory for one at the cost of resources to the Legion is a punishable offense. With Angron being the way he is, I doubt the Primarch would have doled out punishment, and so it fell upon the individual leaders of pieces of the chapter to keep the Legion in line.
As to the idea of the World Eaters charging forth, I think that AD-B and many of the other Black Library authors tend tos how the resiliency and the strength the Legiones Astartes have to win a fight. While the Ultramarines on the planet didn't have much to fight for, they were defending their planet against attack, they were caught unawares (due to communications from Calth being down, no word from the Primarch, etc...) they didn't have anything worth fighting for. The reason why the World Eaters will push and push and push is because they are constantly fighting for release from the Nails. They are drug addicts pure and simple, they are trained killers seeking to finally reach the peace and Nirvana that the Nails promises them, which is why they break formation, which is why they lose more men than they should, and it's why they are able to win the impossible fights they do, because even when their legs are broken and their arms are maimed, the World Eaters need that release from the Nails bite. I think the only other legion that might know their pain are the Blood Angels during Fear to Tread, while many people didn't like the novel, I felt it was another good idea as to what the Angels would go to to win against impossible odds. They fought man, daemon, and sometimes Astartes (If you were the Flesh Tearer), and they nearly lost themselves, but they also fought the very nature that simmered beneath the surface waiting to explode to the surface and ruin a legion. And yet, a handful of the Legion pushed forward and made it to the Cathedral of the Mark to face the Daemons inside, the librarians fought against the edicts of the Imperium and they all nearly gave their lives to save their Primarch... I think that is what we as readers can come to take from many of these recent stories is that the Space Marines will push beyond their limits to achieve victory...
I'm sure I've rambled on long enough though
I agree with you about the racism idea; I didn't even notice it myself.
Spoiler:
On the idea of pushing beyond their limits, I did really like the description of the Astartes endurance; where men would usually tire from fighting etc., the Astartes still do but are able to push themselves further.
But I have to disagree regarding the Ultramarines having nothing to fight for. You said it yourself: "they were defending their planet against attack" - that's what they had to fight for, and it's a helluva lot more important than the Nails IMHO.
Even so, whilst the Astartes are incredibly strong, resilient and determined (as you said); this can only take them so far. There's no logical reason they could break that shield wall IMHO, no matter their abilities (which are shared on both sides). I couldn't see how the author justified Kharn's sudden ability to overcome the wall beyond becoming very angry(er).
AD-B was describing the peril the World Eaters were in: outmanoeuvred, stretched thin, unsupported, even buried; and yet, somehow, they overcame this and went on to slaughter all of Armantura?
Same as Kharn and Argel Tal destroying everyone in their path at Nuceria, or the inability of the Ultramarines fleet. I'm not usually bothered by the idea of plot armour, but I felt this novel was full of it, personally.
Cd was for sale at the HH weekender, MP3 available now, CD to follow.
Seems from what I've heard this explains the apparent timing issues from The Outcast Dead.
Interesting.
I'd like to hear the explanation - and for as big a cock up as it was, you'd think this would have been a good time to release a freebie out to all the HH fans who were scratching their heads over this one...
Alfndrate wrote: Is Outcast Dead worth the read? I think it's one of the only BL books I haven't read that's on my Kindle, and I am almost done with Mark of Calth...
Edit: Also what was the timing issues with the book?
Not really, in my - and most others it seems - opinion.
Alfndrate wrote: Is Outcast Dead worth the read? I think it's one of the only BL books I haven't read that's on my Kindle, and I am almost done with Mark of Calth...
Edit: Also what was the timing issues with the book?
Not really, in my - and most others it seems - opinion.
But then, you liked Betrayer and I didn't...
But most people I've talked to liked Betrayer Though I did like Fear to Tread whereas others didn't...
I guess I'm just not sure what it gives to the story now that I'm in very much in the different warzones, though most of the action seems to be taking place in the Ultramar area... I haven't read Angel Exterminatus yet though...
Alfndrate wrote: Is Outcast Dead worth the read? I think it's one of the only BL books I haven't read that's on my Kindle, and I am almost done with Mark of Calth...
Edit: Also what was the timing issues with the book?
Not really, in my - and most others it seems - opinion.
But then, you liked Betrayer and I didn't...
But most people I've talked to liked Betrayer Though I did like Fear to Tread whereas others didn't...
I guess I'm just not sure what it gives to the story now that I'm in very much in the different warzones, though most of the action seems to be taking place in the Ultramar area... I haven't read Angel Exterminatus yet though...
Honestly, I can only think of one point it added to the story and one important nugget of information it provided about the 40K Universe. I've only read it the once a while ago though.
Betrayer seems to be a mixed bag I think: it's only got 3 stars on the UK Amazon, but more on the US; whilst it's had the most criticisms of any ADB book I've seen, but then others like it.
Fear to Tread and even more so (IIRC) Outcast Dead were generally poorly received though, I found.
Feth it lol, I bought it and I'll read it, I just wish that the book after Mark of Calth could come out so I can keep up with wtf is going on in this series...
There's about 10 pages of interesting stuff in "The Outcast Dead." - You'll know what those pages are when you read them.
I'm still of mixed feelings about Betrayer. There are... problems with it, however the good parts in it are really good. Particularly the main 'point' of the story.
Spoiler:
The rise of Angron as the first True Daemon Prince
I liked Betrayer. I like the world eaters though, so could be biased. I think it's hard to give them characterization besides just being Angry marines all the time. The book gave some insight into Angron and Kharn, and their struggles with the nails.
My only problem, is between Istvaan III and 5, and the war on Armatura and the other stops during Betrayer, I don't see how there could be more than about 50 Worldeaters alive in the whole Legion by the end of the novel. Either they are a much larger than normal legion, or else they have some amazing way to replentish their losses.
Isn't part of the concept that, post heresy and especially after Skalathrax, there are relatively few of the 4 aligned legions left alive, hence why they are 'elites' type troops, unless they're following one of their personal leaders.
Around 13:00 makes mention of a Space Marines Battle Novel with Iron Snakes with his wife Nik, also involves characters from Titanicus....
which takes place on the same planet/time as the grand guignol in the current Gaunts' Ghost arc...
which would lead one to assume that this'll be about...
The Astartes distinguished themselves under their new commander also. Most notably, the Iron Snakes, cut off from supply on the world of Presarius, fought for 9 days without ammunition or support, successfully exterminating their mutant enemy. The action was thought so impressive that, upon their return to their staging area, Chapter Master Veegum of the Silver Guard ordered his own marines to bow to the Iron Snakes warriors.
Malcador reveals that the Crimson King's message actually arrived around two whole years ago, and it almost ripped the palace apart, but the psychic force was contained by the wards of the palace, while the Hollow Mountain psykers tried to cancel them out. Magnus's power proved too strong, however, and in the end they did not manage to make away with the force entirely before it eventually broke the wards. Malcador says that it could have been so much worse, if not for the wards and the psykers trying to contain it further.
So yes, Magnus's message WAS what freed the Outcast Dead, but the timing of the message would appear differently "from the outside".
.. I guess YMMV with regards to that.
for me..
Spoiler:
lines
space !
I'm not quite sure that "buffering" is a great excuse.. but it does make the actions of the Emperor more understandable with regards to the Wolves and Prospero. and how Horus could still ..... persuade.. Russ that magnus couldn't be saved and would be best.. removed.
Makes me wonder what's going on during those meetings. I kinda imagine half of it is wrestling who gets which legion and the other half is pitching cool gak while forgetting about the time line.
reds8n wrote: C& P'ed from warseer, thanks to Mr. dark Chaplain
Spoiler:
spaces
spaces
Malcador reveals that the Crimson King's message actually arrived around two whole years ago, and it almost ripped the palace apart, but the psychic force was contained by the wards of the palace, while the Hollow Mountain psykers tried to cancel them out. Magnus's power proved too strong, however, and in the end they did not manage to make away with the force entirely before it eventually broke the wards. Malcador says that it could have been so much worse, if not for the wards and the psykers trying to contain it further.
So yes, Magnus's message WAS what freed the Outcast Dead, but the timing of the message would appear differently "from the outside".
.. I guess YMMV with regards to that.
Indeed. This does seem a rather poor attempt at correcting/explaining it.
Spoiler:
So the Emperor had a warning a whole 2 years prior to the Heresy and thought nothing of it all
Kind of makes it worse if you ask me, but I guess I will need to listen to it properly first.
Sorry, could someone explain this to me more ... slowly? What exactly is the problem? From what I'm reading here ...
Spoiler:
... Outcast Dead had Magnus alerting the Emperor two years before ... what? Istvaan III? The Siege of Terra? And Wolf Hunt explains this by saying no one bothered to "receive" the message because they were too busy making sure it didn't destroy the palace? Like, the psychic force of Magnus's message was so intense that damage control lasted for two years?
Because if I understand all of that correctly, that seems fething awesome to me. One of the problems I've had with the HH series is its rather puny scale. So the idea that two years was spent this way, that makes sense to me. Seems suitably mythological.
HH Series:
Drop site massacre happens, Garo escapes and tells the IM that "oh no, marine fighting marine"
The Emp sends the Space Wolves to bring the 1k Sons back in line
IM deals with the news that some legions are now traitors
Outcast Dead: Messes up the time line
The IM seems to already know that some legions have gone traitor, but from where we are reading on the Outcast Dead, the drop site massacre hasn't happened yet.
If you take the timeline in Outcast Dead, months if not years before the Drop site massacre, the IM knows wht Horus is up to. Kind of a big mistake, no?
Yeah, that's more or less the point of Outcast Dead. You have this monumental bit of information, do you share it with those that matter or do you keep it away from everybody else and just let things unfold without tampering with the outcome.
It's becoming more and more of a clusterfeth if you ask me IMHO..
BrookM wrote: Yeah, that's more or less the point of Outcast Dead. You have this monumental bit of information, do you share it with those that matter or do you keep it away from everybody else and just let things unfold without tampering with the outcome.
It's becoming more and more of a clusterfeth if you ask me IMHO..
I'm in agreement I think as well.
Just trying to get my head around this ...
Spoiler:
So the Emperor actually receives the message 2 years prior to the outbreak of the Heresy, as he has the talk with flamey Angel Magnus in A Thousand Sons and he sits on this information. After the message has been received though he sends Russ to shut up Magnus, not warning him of the actual contents of the message. Then the feedback (?) from the message is received by everyone else on Terra, which just happens to be after Istvaan, rendering it now useless.
It could be like Manchu says.
So does that mean that the time between Horus fall on Davin and the Istvaan Massacre was 2 years or roundabout?
So the Emperor actually receives the message 2 years prior to the outbreak of the Heresy, as he has the talk with flamey Angel Magnus in A Thousand Sons and he sits on this information. After the message has been received though he sends Russ to shut up Magnus, not warning him of the actual contents of the message. Then the feedback (?) from the message is received by everyone else on Terra, which just happens to be after Istvaan, rendering it now useless.
It could be like Manchu says.
So does that mean that the time between Horus fall on Davin and the Istvaan Massacre was 2 years or roundabout?
God I almost feel like I shouldn't even read Outcast dead .
There are Mark of Calth spoilers below, be warned:
Spoiler:
The issue that you all have to remember is that the warp doesn't operate on the same linnear timeline that we do, this is prevelant with the birth of Slaanesh in the 30th millenium, and why Slaanesh exists in WHFB. This is also prevalent in Mark of Calth in the final story, where Trooper Persson cuts his way through the warp, winding up at one of the first battles of the Great Crusade, a WW2 scene, and an even more ancient battle. So it could be that the time between Davin and Istvaan isn't that long, but it could be that the force needed to shoot his message across the warp caused it to "go back in time" if you will. It still seems stupid that nothing was done 2 years prior :-\
BrookM wrote:Uh-huh, still a clusterfeth in my eyes.
Yup
Alpharius wrote:The phrase "Band-aid on a bullet wound" comes to mind...
Or, Lame Excuse is Lame!
And this!
Really, I wish they had just let it lie.. it was amazing how many people hadn't noticed the (in my eyes, rather amusing) mistake in The Outcast Dead, and trying to explain it just makes it worse by drawing attention to it.
Alpharius wrote: The Emperor himself, in one of these books, states that he knows what he needs to do, but isn't sure of the outcome.
Given all that we've seen to date, there's no way he could have wanted this to happen...
Sure, not precisely at least. But my theory is more like, he gambled the Primarchs to distract the Ruinous Powers and buy time for building humanity's Webway. In that scenario, his idea would be: I've got to get this done before the Heresy can disrupt it/while the Heresy is still distracting from it. I'm not advocating that everything that happened was exactly "just as planned." But when you design genetic super warlords, you are taking a calculated risk no matter what. The question is, how much of the actual risk did the Emperor contemplate. And my answer is, he probably not only saw it coming but created the Primarchs in the first place to get the Ruinous Powers' attention and keep it on something other than what was really important to him.
Plus, it sort of fits with 'The Sigillite' which pretty much puts to rest the concept that The Emperor really is a Bad Guy.
Spoiler:
The Emperor's overall plan is to make himself redundant. He truly does NOT in any way whatsoever want to be treated as a God.
Macharius however, believes that The Emperor is very wrong in that regard and seems to be one of the main shadow-protectors and facilitators of the Imperial Cult.
Perhaps we'll get some nice internal-dialog with introspection on why he made some of the decisions he made towards the end of the series? That would be cool.
I've been reading the HH books again, and am currently on Fulgrim. I'm picking up on lots of things that I either missed the first time, or didn't appreciate as much at the time. Like Mortarion fighting with his legion in Galaxy in Flames. Not nearly enough of him in the series so far.
And where the feth are Perturbo, Alpharius, and Khaan? I want to read about them (without purchasing an LE book).
Compel wrote: Perturabo turns up quite prominently in 'The Crimson Fistt'in the Shadows of Treachery book.
Isn't he also on the cover of Angel Exterminatus?
There's plenty of Alpha Legion shenanigans in 'The Primarches'
I liked Deliverance Lost, but not enough Alpha Legion.
I didn't like Legion because it has less Alpha Legion in it than Deliverance Lost. In fact, Legion is a misnomer. Rename it "Bunch of IG guys that run around the desert and accidentally bump into some Astartes right about the time we read the About the Author entry."
Perturabo -- and Fulgrim -- both feature quite prominently in "Angel Extarminatus".
In that book, with regards to the Emperor
Spoiler:
space
space...
.. IIRC there's a seen where he is talking to Perturabo around the start of the great crusade/after Perturabo/all (?) the primarchs have been found. He reveals to him that his foresight/divination only takes him up to "now" and the future after that is unknown to him.
With regards to the timing error..
given how swiftly they claimed it wasn't a mistake and quite how knowledgeable Mr. Goulding is about the chronology of the series, I'm willing to accept that it was a deliberate choice and not a mistake. Undertaken presumably to account for the Emperor's absence -- he's been busy for 2 years ( more or less) fighting to hold back the daemonic hordes -- and if the exact contents of the message weren't known or understood the sending of the wolves to annihilate the 1ksons makes much more sense.
It's not the author's fault as such but as the series rolls on -- and especially now that we're very much in the phase were a lot of the legions are fighting -- the horror or impossibility of marine fratricide or traitorous primarchs happening is eroded by the inevitable little snippets we learn about other events -- wolves versus WE -- and the big ols elephant in the room of the missing 2 and their legions.
YMMV of course
In other news Corax : Soulforge is out and arriving. Got my copy -- looks very nice but haven't had a chance to read it yet.
given how swiftly they claimed it wasn't a mistake and quite how knowledgeable Mr. Goulding is about the chronology of the series, I'm willing to accept that it was a deliberate choice and not a mistake. Undertaken presumably to account for the Emperor's absence -- he's been busy for 2 years ( more or less) fighting to hold back the daemonic hordes -- and if the exact contents of the message weren't known or understood the sending of the wolves to annihilate the 1ksons makes much more sense.
Spoiler:
So actually that makes a fair bit of sense to the whole, rather than won't see any body, he can't see anybody, because he's plugging the breach caused by Magnus at this time, not off playing with his toys.
If I recall correctly he did inform Russ of the contents, and Russ mentions this to Hawser.
reds8n wrote: In other news Corax : Soulforge is out and arriving. Got my copy -- looks very nice but haven't had a chance to read it yet.
As do I!
But already I have a niggle with the story so far.
Spoiler:
I thought Corax sneaky power was only known to him and the Emperor, now there are other Raven Guard with it
... .. it does have a smell, and it's soft, so soft, I like to stroke it
reds8n wrote: Perturabo -- and Fulgrim -- both feature quite prominently in "Angel Extarminatus".
In that book, with regards to the Emperor
Spoiler:
space
space...
.. IIRC there's a seen where he is talking to Perturabo around the start of the great crusade/after Perturabo/all (?) the primarchs have been found. He reveals to him that his foresight/divination only takes him up to "now" and the future after that is unknown to him.
With regards to the timing error..
given how swiftly they claimed it wasn't a mistake and quite how knowledgeable Mr. Goulding is about the chronology of the series, I'm willing to accept that it was a deliberate choice and not a mistake. Undertaken presumably to account for the Emperor's absence -- he's been busy for 2 years ( more or less) fighting to hold back the daemonic hordes -- and if the exact contents of the message weren't known or understood the sending of the wolves to annihilate the 1ksons makes much more sense.
It's not the author's fault as such but as the series rolls on -- and especially now that we're very much in the phase were a lot of the legions are fighting -- the horror or impossibility of marine fratricide or traitorous primarchs happening is eroded by the inevitable little snippets we learn about other events -- wolves versus WE -- and the big ols elephant in the room of the missing 2 and their legions.
YMMV of course
In other news Corax : Soulforge is out and arriving. Got my copy -- looks very nice but haven't had a chance to read it yet.
I wish they would just leave the events in Outcast Dead buried.. it was a fun book, but unless large sections of the book get re-written it is impossible to deflect the impression of events that it gives.
Personally it didn't bother me, and it was fun coming up with scenarios about how the events could take place.
You can imagine all the plebeians at the start walking around saying "Oi, you 'eard Horus might be on his way here?" (this should be a Monty Python sketch, with Terry Jones as a high-voiced peasant lady), meanwhile in a tower of glass and ivory Magnus has spent months creating the most powerful spell ever known to tell the Emperor what everyone in the galaxy already knows. Doh!
BrookM wrote: Legion was about as much about the Alpha Legion as Prospero Burns was about the sacking of Prospero..
Yes, although I find it hard to be critical about either of them because they are both such cracking books!
Although as Alph says, hopefully Legion will get a sequel (in novel form, not some audio book or over-priced short story that will pass everyone by).
Alpharius wrote: At least the Warlord Titans are the right style in HONOUR TO THE DEAD...
I love that style of Titan. I was lucky enough to pick up 18 unnassembled in a package deal from Ebay a couple years ago for about 30 dollars.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
farmersboy wrote: Don't get me started! I used to buy every new HH novel the minute it was out, regardless of the author. Now I have to wait nine months after all the hype, and although I'm a collector of W40K novels, I'm starting to loose interest, and that's after 20 years of loyalty to the brand and product.
That book about the assassins killed it for me, heh. Seriously, that was the most inept crew they could find, sent on the most dire mission. A good example of their incompetence was illustrated when the Eversor and Callidus were surprised by a panicked civilian in a store.
Seems that BL has snuck yet ANOTHER Tau novel ebook onto their site.
"The Patient Hunter" by Joe Parrino.
I *just* grabbed it, so no reviews yet - but it seems to be 'from the Tau perspective', AND 'starring' a lone Riptide pilot against an entire AdMech *ARMORED BATTALION*.
This should be good!
That'll go right in along side the one where the lone Fire warrior roamed at will through a Maine strike cruiser, killing off the crew and taking hostages on the bridge.
Guy Haley is back again with Skarsnik...
Baneblade was good, so we'll see how he does with Fantasy...
i started it last night, and it is going good so far...
the story is told by a mad Empire poet who was a captive of Skarsnik...
C.L. Werner has a pair of Blighted Empire novels out, and the LE Soul Drinkers novella is up...
the Digital Monday short stories continue, with some new Grey Knight titles...
i haven't bought Headtaker yet, but Queek is definitely calling to me...
seems he's quite the arrogant little cheese eater, judging from the blurb...
@Manchu: how did you like Blood of Asaheim???
i enjoyed it...
it was interesting to see the relationships between the squad members, the rivalry, and the friendship...
the SoB friction was fun, too...
Some nice little touches, I liked the .... legacy ..... aspect they mentioned. Perhaps go some way towards explaining the RG from Angel Exterminatus and maybe even Shrike ?
Headtaker up next for me, then the above.
.. Really looking forwards to Skarsnik, always had a bot of a soft spot for the character -- and the current model is so sweet it can cause diabetes.
Possibly. If I was a digital reader I'd already have it. Enjoyed Baneblade a fair bit and loved his Richards and Klein books
i really enjoyed Fist of Demtrius...
my second favorite Space Wolves cameo, right behind The Emperor's Gift...
Skarsnik is a fun read so far, with a couple of nice nods to other Warhammer characters and descriptions based on actual GW sculpts you may have in your collection...
Manchu wrote: Who are these people who wanted hardbacks? Did they also want people who don't want hardbacks to wait through mismatched trade paperbacks before, hopefully one day, seeing a mass market version?
Sorry but whoever posted that is willfully deluded.
Sorry just getting into this thread...but am I the only one that thinks Hard back editions of this series is cool?
I guess leatherbound versions would also be cool. But let's say that making them meant the regular hardcover was pushed back by four months, followed in four further months by the trade, before finally arriving over a year later in MMPB. Not so cool.
Yes I think that's the main issue.. I and many others have 'lost the thread' as it were of the Heresy series, and have no interest at all in hardbacks.
I've loved the books, but loved them at £7.99 and to be honest don't think that a kind of 'pulp sci-fi' (even with really nice clothes on) should be priced any higher than that.
I have and will continue to refrain from buying the HH series books in any other format other than the original MM. Maybe I have bit of ocd, but in my library, I prefer my series to match in size. If they had started in HB I wouldn't buy them in MM. Its an aesthetic thing for me. That and an obvious $$$ grab by them.
Manchu wrote: Who are these people who wanted hardbacks? Did they also want people who don't want hardbacks to wait through mismatched trade paperbacks before, hopefully one day, seeing a mass market version?
Sorry but whoever posted that is willfully deluded.
Sorry just getting into this thread...but am I the only one that thinks Hard back editions of this series is cool?
GG
Pretty much?
mjl7atlas wrote:I have and will continue to refrain from buying the HH series books in any other format other than the original MM. Maybe I have bit of ocd, but in my library, I prefer my series to match in size. If they had started in HB I wouldn't buy them in MM. Its an aesthetic thing for me. That and an obvious $$$ grab by them.
I have Mark of Calth in hb form (bought it at AdeptiCon) because the guy with the British accent sold me on it, and Battle of Calth is quickly becoming my favorite theatre of war in the heresy. The ideas behind it are well done, it's a nice quality dust jacket with awesome art, and the jacket art is on the hard cover, but none of that makes it truly worth the price tag. I have several hard backs from a recent book series that I picked up at Wal-Mart for 14 dollars (regular price 17). I'm finding it very hard to believe that the BL hardbacks cost 30 bucks to produce and ship.
I don't mind the hard backs, but I'm certainly not clamoring for more of them.. :-\
We're nothing but cattle to them. Little moo-moos with Dollars and Euros and Pounds painted on our flanks.
I'm part of the problem, though while I've severely cut back on my BL purchases, I had to have the second Macharius novel, which is a hardback. Same with the overhyped Bequin trilogy, must-have, must-read. Just when I thought I was out.. Yadda yadda.
I'm the same as many of the other posters on here; I bought the paperback HH novels almost on release and collected them all.
Then, suddenly, large-format hardback.
I steadfastly refuse to pay substantially more just because the typeface is bigger and it has a thick card cover, and worst of all they would look out of place next to my other HH novels; this offends my OCD!
There are two types of hardback actually, one is the thick card cover, the other has a proper dust jacket and sleeve, though both go for the same amount for some reason. When I got the first Macharius book, sleeve and dust jacket, but when I got AD-B's Grey Knight novel and Pariah, hardback, but with a sturdy stock cover minus sleeve, for the same price.
Nice to see I'm not the only one who insists on collecting the books in their original format! The trade size is bad enough - too big to slip in my jacket pocket when I travel into London - and is really making my bookshelves look odd.
Like many others, my motivation for Black Library has all but dropped off - and I've emailed them telling them so.
Where once I would have been clamouring for new releases and eagerly anticipating each section of the HH series, now I couldn't really care. The lack of information, the hardback-to-paperback policy, the novellas, and the seemingly decreasing quality have all sapped my motivation.
And so, now I'm going elsewhere for my reading needs, rather than basically just Black Library as it once was. I've ordered Ex Heroes and High-Rise, and will start reading the Game of Thrones series too.
As for Black Library, I'm not sure. I think I'll either stop reading the HH series altogether and pick it back up once (read: if) it's finished, or I'll just wait the 9 months for the standard paperback. The latter is tiresome and prone to suffering from spoilers, however. I don't see myself picking up their other novels now either, except maybe the Warmaster series.
Where once I would have been clamouring for new releases and eagerly anticipating each section of the HH series, now I couldn't really care. The lack of information, the hardback-to-paperback policy, the novellas, and the seemingly decreasing quality have all sapped my motivation.
Same here.
I've already fallen behind, and I'm not even sure where I left off...
Where once I would have been clamouring for new releases and eagerly anticipating each section of the HH series, now I couldn't really care. The lack of information, the hardback-to-paperback policy, the novellas, and the seemingly decreasing quality have all sapped my motivation.
Same here.
I've already fallen behind, and I'm not even sure where I left off...
I wouldn't even worry about it - and I don't think I would've said that before!
I'll join the chorus. No Black Library since Angel Exterminatus. I blocked their newsletter (the link to unsubscribe didn't work). I don't even remember when Betrayer comes out anymore. I have of course caught some spoilers about it, despite showing no interest in Black Library at all for months. I'm only here because I subscribed to this thread back before Black Library decided it wanted to sell less books.
I am not morally opposed to buying BL books. It's just a fact that I won't buy as many HH books because the cost is significantly higher while the quality has not risen commensurately. I fully plan on getting some of them, even in hardcover, such as Unremembered Empire. But I would probably have purchased and read all of them, like I used to, without this silly hardcover switch over.
I bought the ebook versions of the Betrayer and Angel Exterminatus - good reads both. Betrayer is awesome.
Mark of Calth was like any anthology - ups and downs, but good overall.
I just hope they get on with it and start releasing more books. And get Chris Wraight and CL Werner and Rob Sanders writing will you? That will allow you to release Gav and Kyme back into the sea.
Ahhh I think I see the perspective issue. I didn't start getting into the HH series until I started purchasing the audio books. I now want to read the unabridged versions of the first three, and since I like the series so much wouldn't actually mind paying for the Hard Backs + I'm kind of a guy that likes collectibles. I guess it's all a matter of perspective. I guess if you had already purchased the MMPB, it may not seem worth it.
For me, it's not that I can't afford it or so much that it's not worth it, but rather I don't feel I can justify paying £20 for a novel I was previously paying £8 for. Not to mention by the time it's £8 I may not care for it or I may have already been spoiled as to what happens...
But I agree, as with most things, it's a matter of perspective.
Edit: Wait... I've not turned into the equivalent of one of those GW haters have I?
I find it a conundrum to hate GW for their business practices,but love tthe 40k universe and game. I can only hope if the rumours of a buy out are true and hope the company goes back to gaming as opposed to squeezing every last penny out of its market. I personally own several hundred BL books, several grand worth of their games, but I have closed the wallet since the GK release and wait (in vain) for sanity to reclaim GWs business side.
Just Dave wrote: For me, it's not that I can't afford it or so much that it's not worth it, but rather I don't feel I can justify paying £20 for a novel I was previously paying £8 for.
Not to mention by the time it's £8 I may not care for it or I may have already been spoiled as to what happens...
But I agree, as with most things, it's a matter of perspective.
Edit: Wait... I've not turned into the equivalent of one of those GW haters have I?
Hater!
It's a reasonable feeling. I've cut my expenditures quite a bit with the transition and I don't feel any worse off for it.
My youngest brother bought me a copy of "The Sundering" Omnibus after he ruined my copy of "Shadow King". I can't be mad about that, as I'd not read "Malekith" or "Caledor".
I stand by the fact that I feel "Shadow King" was a fantastic read...but after having read the other two, I'm now inclined to say "Shadow King" has a bit of the "Empire" syndrome to it. The other two books feel a bit weak in comparison.
That's not to say they are bad books or anything, but I feel that "Shadow King" is far superior to "Malekith" or "Caledor".
Just Dave wrote: Do you know if it will be available in MMPB format later? £15 is a lot of money for 128 pages.
The only MMPB's we'll see now are the HH novels,I believe - BL policy is to publish anything not started in MMPB format (ie HH) in that awful Trade size.
Definitely prefer those to the covers that the UK had!
£15 for a Novella.?? Good grief...
I thought originally there had been intent for all of the limited edition stuff to come out as MMPB at some point, although perhaps I have misremembered and in fact they meant that it would come out in a non-limited edition format.
Pacific wrote: Definitely prefer those to the covers that the UK had!
£15 for a Novella.?? Good grief...
I thought originally there had been intent for all of the limited edition stuff to come out as MMPB at some point, although perhaps I have misremembered and in fact they meant that it would come out in a non-limited edition format.
The "limited edition stuff" doesn't necessarily come out as MMPB, but rather it tends to come as part of an omnibus. "The Bloody Handed God", for example, is in "The Sundering" omnibus.
Those covers look awesome but... I really have no idea who the characters in them are. Aside from Eisenhorn that is, - shouldn't he be really young looking then?
Compel wrote: Those covers look awesome but... I really have no idea who the characters in them are. Aside from Eisenhorn that is, - shouldn't he be really young looking then?
Many decades have passed between Xenos, Malleus, and Hereticus. By the third book, at least 150 years have passed (if I remember correctly).
Compel wrote: Those covers look awesome but... I really have no idea who the characters in them are. Aside from Eisenhorn that is, - shouldn't he be really young looking then?
The cover for Xenos is Eisenhorn and Fischig.
The cover for Malleus is Eisenhorn and Ravenor.
Just thought id mention that i picked up the 2nd Hammer and Bolter complitation the other day and in that the editor says that the current digital mondays short stories WILL be produced in 'dead tree format' at some point in 2014...
Just finished Blighted Empire by C.L. Werner. Like all of Mr. Werner's works, the kill count was high, the story was compelling and it all came together neatly. The story is told from Skaven, Necromancer, corrupt Imperial and noble Middenheimer perspectives which really does a great service to portray the sheer magnitude of how the Empire of Man is really at its worst position in its 1000ish year history. The characters, good and bad, were all well written, from the Necromancer Vanhal, who seems to be possessed/manipulated by Nagash (I got that impression) to the vile Emperor Boris, the various Skaven clanlords and their brutal politicking, to Mandred, soon to be called Skavenslayer.
All in all a solid read from the consistent CL Werner.
actually, Pacific, Ahriman is portrayed as trying to save his arse, 'cause his homies hate him...
no mustache twirling villany, just a sense of being hunted by his own peeps...
it's also set a bit back in the timeline, which i like in the odd BL novel, fleshing out more of the backstory of the last 10,000 years...
Is the new release of promethean sun in exactly the same format/design as the limited release or does it somehow differ? Page count is the same but BL does not provide any real detail on the site.
My local Barnes and Nobles, which as little as a year ago used to have a whole bookshelf-display dedicated to BL complete with posters and signs, now has more or less stopped stocking them and only has a few 4-5 month old books hidden away in the Sci Fi-fantasy section. Real shame what BL has done to themselves.
jah-joshua wrote: actually, Pacific, Ahriman is portrayed as trying to save his arse, 'cause his homies hate him...
no mustache twirling villany, just a sense of being hunted by his own peeps...
it's also set a bit back in the timeline, which i like in the odd BL novel, fleshing out more of the backstory of the last 10,000 years...
it's definitely worth the read...
cheers
jah
Cheers for the recommendation, good to see this one is in paperback already also so will pick it up!
I just finished Skarsnik, and I have to say, hands down the best Fantasy novel I've read from Black Library. Thoroughly enjoyable read. Its a great plot, from a tiny gobbo coming out of his spawning hole as the smallest runt in the herd, to becoming Skarsnik, king under the mountain. Its probably both the funniest and most brutal book they've made, as well.
This premium, 416 page hardback contains the classic novel Helsreach, the brand new novella 'Blood and Fire' and eight colour pages of illustrations, maps and equipment profiles.
Seems Blood and Fire can be ordered as a separate ebook.
Interesting to read that BL's sales have absolutely 100% not been effected by this stuff at all.
I know it is only anecdotal, but many in this thread have said they haven't bought a HH book since the switch, and I know I haven't, as I continue to wait for the MMPB versions...
And honestly, for me, many (most?) BL books aren't 'worth' the extra price, outside of a select few (2) authors.
BobtheInquisitor wrote:What ADB says is simply not true. He must not be getting enough sleep due to the baby.
What element of that was not true? The general comments about the industry?
Alpharius wrote:Interesting to read that BL's sales have absolutely 100% not been effected by this stuff at all.
I know it is only anecdotal, but many in this thread have said they haven't bought a HH book since the switch, and I know I haven't, as I continue to wait for the MMPB versions...
And honestly, for me, many (most?) BL books aren't 'worth' the extra price, outside of a select few (2) authors.
Firstly, where are you getting the info from about the sales not being affected Alph?
About the last point, I feel exactly the same. I loved some BL books, but with a couple of exceptions I would regard them as 'pulp'. I don't mean this in a derogatory way, but it just reflects the style of book, as something you can shoot through in a weekend or when you get home late from work and don't have the energy for anything more. In the same way I wouldn't pay £20 for hardback Star Trek TNG books, Forgotten Realms books back in the day, I won't for BL. They're being knocked out by the dozen, and I think the expectation of customer spending power is far too high in this case.
Alpharius wrote: Interesting to read that BL's sales have absolutely 100% not been effected by this stuff at all.
I know it is only anecdotal, but many in this thread have said they haven't bought a HH book since the switch, and I know I haven't, as I continue to wait for the MMPB versions...
And honestly, for me, many (most?) BL books aren't 'worth' the extra price, outside of a select few (2) authors.
Ditto.
In addition, not only have I not bought any HH book since the switch (but will continue to do so in MMPB when they launch) but I had begun to almost habitually read solely BL books. The switch to HB knocked me off that particular treadmill and I will now purchase solely HH MMPB books and I suspect very little else.
I cannot believe that the only people who have a problem with the BL changes are posting in this thread, perhaps there has been growth in other areas which has masked the drop off?
As for ADB, he's a creative, I doubt he's all that interested in the nuts and bolts, so while I respect his opinion, its probably not all that well informed. (ie his only source of info is likely his editor)
Alpharius wrote: Interesting to read that BL's sales have absolutely 100% not been effected by this stuff at all.
I know it is only anecdotal, but many in this thread have said they haven't bought a HH book since the switch, and I know I haven't, as I continue to wait for the MMPB versions...
And honestly, for me, many (most?) BL books aren't 'worth' the extra price, outside of a select few (2) authors.
And than there are the people who gladly pay well over GBP 150,- just to get a HH Hardcover slightly early (and I'd guess Nick Kyme isn't one of the "select few" for most).
And you'll note that this auction started at 0.99 GBP
I got the 'ADB says sales haven't been affected at all' comment right up there in Lint's spoilered Facebook comments post.
ADB wrote:I suspect they're not really driving anyone that loyal away, and if they were, sales figures (not just profit, but actual figures) would show it. And they don't. Trust me, they absolutely don't.
I still don't understand why the switch to a bigger format book? If you want to put the price up by a couple of quid fair enough, but why make it physically bigger? What's the point?
Alpharius wrote: Interesting to read that BL's sales have absolutely 100% not been effected by this stuff at all.
I know it is only anecdotal, but many in this thread have said they haven't bought a HH book since the switch, and I know I haven't, as I continue to wait for the MMPB versions...
And honestly, for me, many (most?) BL books aren't 'worth' the extra price, outside of a select few (2) authors.
Ditto.
In addition, not only have I not bought any HH book since the switch (but will continue to do so in MMPB when they launch) but I had begun to almost habitually read solely BL books. The switch to HB knocked me off that particular treadmill and I will now purchase solely HH MMPB books and I suspect very little else.
I cannot believe that the only people who have a problem with the BL changes are posting in this thread, perhaps there has been growth in other areas which has masked the drop off?
As for ADB, he's a creative, I doubt he's all that interested in the nuts and bolts, so while I respect his opinion, its probably not all that well informed. (ie his only source of info is likely his editor)
This post is literally mindblowing.. "Anecdotal evidence gathered from the posts of a handfull of users on an internet message board are probably better evidence than the views of someone who works in the industry, as they are probably the one who doesn't know what they're talking about."
On a more positive note, finished "Prince of Crows" by none other than ADB the other day from the Shadows of Treachery omnibus, and that was hands down the best HH novella/short so far, Sevatar is an exquisite character, a perfect representation of the Night Lords to me.
Alpharius wrote: Interesting to read that BL's sales have absolutely 100% not been effected by this stuff at all.
I know it is only anecdotal, but many in this thread have said they haven't bought a HH book since the switch, and I know I haven't, as I continue to wait for the MMPB versions...
And honestly, for me, many (most?) BL books aren't 'worth' the extra price, outside of a select few (2) authors.
Ditto.
In addition, not only have I not bought any HH book since the switch (but will continue to do so in MMPB when they launch) but I had begun to almost habitually read solely BL books. The switch to HB knocked me off that particular treadmill and I will now purchase solely HH MMPB books and I suspect very little else.
I cannot believe that the only people who have a problem with the BL changes are posting in this thread, perhaps there has been growth in other areas which has masked the drop off?
As for ADB, he's a creative, I doubt he's all that interested in the nuts and bolts, so while I respect his opinion, its probably not all that well informed. (ie his only source of info is likely his editor)
This post is literally mindblowing.. "Anecdotal evidence gathered from the posts of a handfull of users on an internet message board are probably better evidence than the views of someone who works in the industry, as they are probably the one who doesn't know what they're talking about."
On a more positive note, finished "Prince of Crows" by none other than ADB the other day from the Shadows of Treachery omnibus, and that was hands down the best HH novella/short so far, Sevatar is an exquisite character, a perfect representation of the Night Lords to me.
Whatever dude, glad I could brighten your evening, I haven't got the energy to reiterate my point or explain where you've misunderstood.
If this is all it takes to blow your mind, I'd suggest reading less books and going outdoors more!
the switch in release format has not effected me one bit...
i still buy all of the novels...
of course, i shop smart, and look for the best deals...
the different size books don't bother me...
i started with hardback years ago, with Gaunt's Ghosts and the Ultramarines series...
i started with trade paperback years ago as well, with Space Marine Battles...
so what if i have 3 different sizes of book on my shelf???
i still enjoy the stories, and like that the books contain artwork...
as AD-B said, a larger book is not the end of the world...
i understand it's different strokes for different folks, but i'm one of the guys who doesn't have a problem with the switch...
we do exist...
i've happily made the switch to eBooks, which are cheaper, or i buy dead trees at a discount...
life goes on, and i keep reading...
speaking of reading, Skarsnik was great, and Headtaker is quite enjoyable...
now i'm just waiting for Unremembered Empire...
Alpharius wrote:I got the 'ADB says sales haven't been affected at all' comment right up there in Lint's spoilered Facebook comments post.
ADB wrote:I suspect they're not really driving anyone that loyal away, and if they were, sales figures (not just profit, but actual figures) would show it. And they don't. Trust me, they absolutely don't.
OK cheers mate. Have to say, I'm very surprised by that!
cincydooley wrote:Dude, you basically said, "he's just a writer, he doesn't know what he's talking about".
IMO they'd be better off not doing any MMPB and simply making them either trade sized or digital.
I know you've said this before, and I know I've replied before that I'm sure a lot of customers do still want the MMPB!
cincydooley wrote: Dude, you basically said, "he's just a writer, he doesn't know what he's talking about".
IMO they'd be better off not doing any MMPB and simply making them either trade sized or digital.
Yes, because creative talent the world over in all industries is famous for knowing the numbers side of the business inside out and making sound financial decisions right? Right?
I'm not saying he's wrong, I'm just saying an author who writes near exclusively for one publisher isn't necessarily the most informed or unbiased source when it comes to facts and figures, especially when posting in an open forum.
If they stop doing HH in MMPB, they have lost me as a customer across all their divisions for the foreseeable future, so hopefully for both our sakes, that doesn't happen.
Disappointing shillery from Dembski-Bowden -- but not surprising in light of his other pro-GW apologetics. The print trade may be collapsing generally but it's difficult to imagine that BL was concerned about this. I mean, to go from multiple NYT Best Sellers in MMPB to ... how many since then? Oh right, none. Yeah, this hardback move will surely save BL.
Why shouldn't it be? That's part of ADBs point. It's a publishing house. They've moved their practices to reflect the rest of th publishing industry. I don't know what so many people refuse to acknowledge that fact.
Alpharius wrote: They just think they've found a way to maximize profits from the series.
Time will tell if they're right.
I don't think they are, because I can tell you that I have pretty much stopped paying attention to the whole thing, and I was at the front of the line wanting these books a yer or so ago!
I'd have bought them all - if they were for sale up front.
Now, with the benefit of reviews and such, the clunkers will be left on the shelves...
You say that like it is a bad thing.
If you could have gotten reviews for "Battle for the Abyss" or "Fallen Angels" and "Descent of Angels" before the mass market paperbacks came out...
Imagine saving your brain from those atrocities!
I should further clarify so that I don't get the inevitable "Of course you like it, GW did this!".
If the Horus Heresy series were written by one or two authors with no breaks in continuity?
I would be pissed about this change.
But given that it's not and the quality varies wildly from book to book--I find it hard to get broken up over this change. I get to see a sampling of reviews from the community before I buy, assuming the books look interesting enough in the first place for someone to get drawn into them.
For me, the worst HH book, and the one that put me off the series, was that abortion featuring the Imperial Assassins. From beginning to end it was a crap fest. It got to the point where I would skip whole sections of the book to see if it got even a little better. I stopped reading the series with that one.
cincydooley wrote: Why shouldn't it be? That's part of ADBs point. It's a publishing house. They've moved their practices to reflect the rest of th publishing industry.
Printing hardbacks is not a cutting edge plan to curb declining sales of print books. It's part of the decades-old print trade that is currently falling apart. BL has jettisoned an approach that reliably landed their MMPBs on the NYT Best Seller List to one that simply doesn't -- all under the argument that joining the rest of the publishing industry in trade practices that have failed is somehow necessary. It doesn't add up.
Who says they're concerned about the decline of print? Should they be if they're making as much, or more, profit with their digital products?
Listen, I understand that there are plenty of folks in nerd hobbies that want tangible print. We see it here and in the comic book industry. But to ignore the massive increase in ebook sales (46% growth last year) is foolish.
cincydooley wrote: Why shouldn't it be? That's part of ADBs point. It's a publishing house. They've moved their practices to reflect the rest of th publishing industry.
Printing hardbacks is not a cutting edge plan to curb declining sales of print books. It's part of the decades-old print trade that is currently falling apart. BL has jettisoned an approach that reliably landed their MMPBs on the NYT Best Seller List to one that simply doesn't -- all under the argument that joining the rest of the publishing industry in trade practices that have failed is somehow necessary. It doesn't add up.
A very valid statement fro Manchu, if sales are falling 20% per year, why switch to the method that's clearly failing industry wide?
MMPB are considered (by the industry, and many collectors) as a disposable format
The current state of affairs if that buyers are moving to e-books for their 'disposable' reading material
Hardbacks (and to a lesser extent trade paperbacks) are seen much more as a 'collectable' format (and many authors don't feel they're valued unless they get hardback releases)
and as yet there is no real sign (understandably) of ebooks filling this section
so the publishing industry in general is putting out more hardbacks & trade paperbacks which have better margins, and where sales are more stable
they're reducing the number and print runs of the mmpb
Just Black library behaving more like a standard publisher
BobtheInquisitor wrote:What ADB says is simply not true. He must not be getting enough sleep due to the baby.
What element of that was not true? The general comments about the industry?
Yeah, the industry stuff. I don't want to get into it in this thread with Cincy again, but when I get a chance to collect my thoughts, I want to start a thread in Dakka Discussions about books in general and tie-in fiction in particular.
I guess ADB just comes across really shill-ish, and I just can't believe that their sales have been affected. Or maybe I'm missing out and all the latest Hardcover HH novels also made the NYT Bestseller list...
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cincydooley wrote: The fact remains that the mass market industry as a whole fell over 20% last year. It's a trend that will continue.
You do know that the majority of the required reading books that American high schoolers are expected to buy every year were shifted from MMPB to the more expensive trade format over the last few years, yes? You know that the death of Borders and the increasing use of internet retailers and physical stores depending on special orders and smarter stocking has reduced the demand for the sheer quantity of MMPBs that used to be published just to make sure titles landed on every shelf even if most ended up coverless and binned, thus reducing the market without really reducing the readership or end-point sales?
Neither of those would affect Black Library.
I doubt BL switched to Hardcovers because they saw a 20% drop in book sales.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
cincydooley wrote: The fact remains that the mass market industry as a whole fell over 20% last year. It's a trend that will continue.
You do know that the majority of the required reading books that American high schoolers are expected to buy every year were shifted from MMPB to the more expensive trade format over the last few years, yes? You know that the death of Borders and the increasing use of internet retailers and physical stores depending on special orders and smarter stocking has reduced the demand for the sheer quantity of MMPBs that used to be published just to make sure titles landed on every shelf even if most ended up coverless and binned, thus reducing the market without really reducing the readership or end-point sales?
Neither of those would affect Black Library.
I doubt BL switched to Hardcovers because they saw a 20% drop in book sales.
EDIT: Gah! I didn't want to get into this! Why you gotta pull me in, Black Library?
Manchu wrote: Disappointing shillery from Dembski-Bowden -- but not surprising in light of his other pro-GW apologetics. The print trade may be collapsing generally but it's difficult to imagine that BL was concerned about this. I mean, to go from multiple NYT Best Sellers in MMPB to ... how many since then? Oh right, none. Yeah, this hardback move will surely save BL.
Exactly, that is not anecdotal and I don't understand how they can say the switch hasn't affected sales with a strait face for that very reason.
As for the whole 'the industry is moving that way' argument, BL is not the industry, BL has a niche market that almost exclusively caters to people in the (H-H-)hobby. They print out a ton of 'passable' books with a few great ones and terrible ones sprinkled in. Their authors pump out several books a year and no one there is putting out anything over 500 pages at a time. Paying $30-$40 (au, dunno about the rest of the world) for a 1000 page hardback every year-2 years from a good authour is great, no problem, hardbacks are nicer, but BL aren't putting out thousand page fantasy epics, they are putting out 400 pages of pulp that may be good or may suck.
That's a bunch of stuff I'd rather not have read. I've posted something similar on his blog before to the effect that I regretted not buying his latest book because his publisher had driven me away. I didn't expect him to give me some sort of thumbs up and rail against his employer, I just wanted to offer some small show of support given that I felt unable to support him by buying the book in question. I
totally sympathise with his feeling unable to respond, but his doubting that anybody 'that loyal' is being driven away feels like a bit of a kick in the teeth.
Those of us who have engaged him in this way are precisely those who feel loyal enough to feel a bit crap about having felt unable to support him with our wallets. I've no doubt that he'd rather we hold our noses and part with the cash, but his defence of Black Library isn't going to persuade anyone. At the end of the day I want to give him money for his work, but Black Library ebooks were already the most expensive I ever bought and I'm not willing to pay extra for insulting 'enhanced' versions with nothing of any worth to anyone who uses an e-reader.
I haven't had to hold my nose to buy ebooks in the half year since I swore off Black Library. If everyone else is publishing with the same odious practices as Black Library I must have been very lucky so far.
I don't even mind the trade paperback switch so much any more.
I just found it to be ridiculous that they are re-releasing a previous book that I already paid $12 for. Tossing in a new novella, that I can buy e-book of for $5. And it's hardback (which I don't care about)
And for this they are charging $30?
It just seems like it has nothing to do with "industry standards" and more to do with "empty your pockets."
But then again, maybe they think "well people will pay that for x....why not?"
Personally I think ADB is one of two writers for BL that could hold water outside of the publisher. Dan Abnett has shown he can already - some great comic book work, and the novel I read of his (Embedded) was certainly worth the read. That he manages to come up with so many new and exciting ideas (without stepping on any toes, or pissing off long-term fans) in an increasingly well-defined universe I think is pretty remarkable and speaks well of his imagination.
Would love ADB to do the same as well, think both of them no doubt have a future beyond the confines of BL.
While I get the frustration with the company (I don't necessarily agree with much of it, but I get it), I'm not sure I understand personally engaging ADB on it. What is the endgame to such a decision? The company represents his employer, many of his friends, and his mechanism to work on what he loves and support his family. Why should he address business decisions he has no control over? His job is to write. He delivers quality storytelling in a well worn universe that typically suits my imagination. Be it a hardcover, trade, eventual mass market, or e-book - that is his obligation. With respect to Blood and Fire, I can purchase the $5 e-book (novella) or I can splurge on a nice looking hardcover that also includes Helsreach (the first of his books that I read). I just hope Blood and Fire is good. That is his obligation.
I asked him about it because he made himself available on facebook for me to do so. And I wanted to know if he had an opinion about it, since he was promoting the release.
That's pretty much it.
FWIW I like ADB, I think he's a great author, and his blog has given me a chance to share in some special moments in his life, he's generally a fun kind of guy.
I wanted to talk to him about it the same way I'm talking to all of you about it.
I got my copy of the newly re-published promethean sun today. I missed this on the initial release and was glad to get one of these new ones. I have a friend who is in possession of the original and we compared copies today. The main difference is the absence of a colour section which in the original limited release started at page 64/65 which gave you a salamander seal, the book's cover and some details about the forces written about in the book. There may have also been some editorial changes as the pages don't match up 100% or perhaps the text size is slightly different. The limited numbering is also absent as one would expect. Outwardly it looks similar to the other first one and matches up to the style of the other limited run horus heresy books.
Perhaps changing tact if you are messaging ADB is the way to go?
Sure, he's probably tongue-tied by Black Library on any 40k books.
However, what you can say to him is something like, "hey Aaron, I really enjoy your writing, however I disagree with Black Library's publishing practices, which is why I'm massively looking forward to reading your upcoming Ancient Rome novel. "
Good to hear - he's a tremendous writer, I'd definitely pick up anything he wrote outside the confines of BL (and I'm sure I'm not alone in that regard).
BobtheInquisitor wrote: But Gav Thorpe is the former Black Library scribe who wrote an ancient Rome fantasy novel...
Former? Is Gav not writing for BL any more these days?
After the success of their desperate mission to Salvation’s Reach, Colonel-Commisar Gaunt and the Tanith First race to the strategically vital forge world of Urdesh, besieged by the brutal armies of Anarch Sek. However, there may be more at stake than just a planet. The Imperial forces have made an attempt to divide and conquer their enemy, but with Warmaster Macaroth himself commanding the Urdesh campaign, it is possible that the Archenemy assault has a different purpose… to decapitate the Imperial command structure with a single blow. Has the Warmaster allowed himself to become an unwitting target? And can Gaunt’s Ghosts possibly defend him against the assembled killers and war machines of Chaos?
Compel wrote: Pity that it'll be what/ 18 months before it's readable.
i'll be reading it on release day, all the way down here in BFE Mexico, because, you know, that's MY choice...
it's YOUR choice to wait...
on a more positive note, Headtaker is a good read...
not as snappy as Skarsnik, but Queek is awesome...
Seventh Retribution was good, especially if you like the Imperial Fists, but also some cool Chaos, Inquisition, and Assassin action...
there is also a new series of short stories out about a war on an Eldar Maiden World...
i believe it is called the Carnac Campaign...
looks like 3 eShorts are out now...
So, Jah-Joshua, does that make it the company's choice to make their product so unsavory that many of their most loyal customers are choosing not to buy right now?
Or is it only a choice when the customer is the one withholding?
I'm glad that you have no preferences to reading media or any financial constraints that limit your choices, but it would be interesting to me if you could choose to understand that not all people live in your mindset or circumstances.
It is readable on the date of release. It may not be affordable (for everyone), but it is certainly readable.
And BL made the decision to count profits, not number of books sold, as the driving metric for their decisions. Presumably it is working for them, since they doubled down on it.
C'mon Unremembered empire where are you. K needs a new book.
On a side note. I'm not fussed too much about the style or price of these books when they are released. I luckily can afford them and I have a big book shelf. What does it for me is the terrible writing of some of the authors. I've almost stopped buying them because of this but I did learn who to avoid over time. I almost sold my BA because some of there books were so bad.
I pray that ADB or Mr Abnett are writing all the ones I'm dying to read.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: So, Jah-Joshua, does that make it the company's choice to make their product so unsavory that many of their most loyal customers are choosing not to buy right now?
Or is it only a choice when the customer is the one withholding?
I'm glad that you have no preferences to reading media or any financial constraints that limit your choices, but it would be interesting to me if you could choose to understand that not all people live in your mindset or circumstances.
hey Bob...
yeah, it is BL's choice to alienate some of their customers...
i don't claim to know why they have chosen their current path, but they will reap what they sow, for better or worse...
i'm not here defending their business practices, i'm enjoying some fiction...
i buy what i like, in the cheapest format available...
sometimes that is digital, and sometimes that's in print...
i just got Luthor Huss and Treacheries of the Space Marines from Powells.com, $12 for the pair...
that's a damn good price, but i had to wait until someone was coming from Portland to visit...
i got Skarsnik for $7.99 digital vs. $14.00 in print, and didn't have to wait...
these are personal choices, and i always make that clear in my posts...
believe me, i do "understand that not all people live in your mindset or circumstances"...
that is why i don't state my opinions as if they are facts...
my choice to get out on the street and hustle for money everyday, and then spend it as fast as i make it, drives my girlfriend insane...
honestly, to me, reading on an iPad doesn't make a novel any less enjoyable...
mine happened to be a gift from Nike, so i use it, and oddly enough, usually save money by doing so...
i'm not here judging anyone, i'm just presenting the other side of the argument...
some people say that we, the customers, have to wait 18 months for MMPB to read a book, and i'm saying that is a personal choice, nothing more...
yes, i'm a lucky SOB, and i give thanks for that everyday...
i wear $100 board-shorts, and ride $1,000 dollar surfboards, not because i have no financial constraints, but because people like to give me free stuff...
i still have to go out and hustle for my $10 to eat, everyday...
i go out and risk my life everytime i step out of my gate...
i live a life of passion and adventure, that could all end in an instant, so i choose to enjoy it to the fullest...
plus, my surfboards can snap on any given day and be ruined, but my little novels will outlive me, so they feel like a sound use of what little money i have...
Unremembered Empire has me excited, so i will choose to grab it on release day...
others will choose to wait...
that is neither a judgement, nor a condemnation, just a choice...
some of us are stoked to have new books, and others are angry about the format and price...
i understand why some people are angry, i just choose not to be...
Had dispatch notification from Amazon for my MMPB of Angel Exterminatus today, so anyone waiting, you should be able to pick one up very soon!
Best bit of that news is we're now over the big gap, and us poor, non hardback buying, format matching plebs will now get regular HH books, even if we will be a few titles behind the elite!
Just Dave wrote: I've found spoilers to be a huge downside to the new staggered release policy: so no doubt I'll have the ending given away by someone soon enough...
Just Dave wrote: I've found spoilers to be a huge downside to the new staggered release policy: so no doubt I'll have the ending given away by someone soon enough...
Manchu wrote: Disappointing shillery from Dembski-Bowden -- but not surprising in light of his other pro-GW apologetics. The print trade may be collapsing generally but it's difficult to imagine that BL was concerned about this. I mean, to go from multiple NYT Best Sellers in MMPB to ... how many since then? Oh right, none. Yeah, this hardback move will surely save BL.
Please don't do that, man. It's a strawman, and a pretty crude one.
You can call me a liar if you really feel a need to do it, and bring up reasons you believe I would lie. But then, why wouldn't I just keep quiet in the first place? It takes a lot more effort to reply.
I was the only one on the Heresy team (and, as far as I know, anyone else in the process) that opposed the switch to hardbacks, purely because of the totally vain and shameful fact the new sales model would remove NYT bestseller odds. Not because of sales figures, but the way the books are released as GW exclusives first, and not advertised more than 2 weeks in advance as a new company policy with the changes to publishing, blah blah blah.
You're speaking in ignorance, and I apologise if pointing that out annoys you. But the sales figures prove you wrong, as do our royalty cheques - now, I'm still not happy about the hardbacks, but I'm not going to pretend they're killing BL because 3 people on Dakka Dakka prefer to call me an idiot and a liar than accept a tedious fact as truth because it doesn't match their uninformed guesses.
cincydooley wrote: Why shouldn't it be? That's part of ADBs point. It's a publishing house. They've moved their practices to reflect the rest of th publishing industry.
Printing hardbacks is not a cutting edge plan to curb declining sales of print books. It's part of the decades-old print trade that is currently falling apart. BL has jettisoned an approach that reliably landed their MMPBs on the NYT Best Seller List to one that simply doesn't -- all under the argument that joining the rest of the publishing industry in trade practices that have failed is somehow necessary. It doesn't add up.
Actually, dude, it does. BL is selling more and more through its own site and GW stores, rather than the traditional book trade - so those sales aren't tracked in the traditional way. They don't register as "book trade" sales, the same way as selling at conventions doesn't either, and so on. While the rest of the physical book industry collapses, BL is doing extremely well. It's not a case of asking your editor and getting a vague answer. When this is your career and practically all your colleagues and friends work in the same industry, you pay slightly more attention to how you keep your family alive and pay your bills than just assuming everything's okay. You get figures. You get royalty statements that list everything, to the last book, with sales for every country. You get your publisher's managing director calling you to explain the company's policy changes, because you make them hundreds of thousands of pounds. That's what all professional publishers provide for their authors.
Pointing that out shouldn't be considered shilling. Jesus, you're supposed to be a mod, here.
And in all seriousness, it's not something I think rocks on toast, or anything. I'm writing 40K now (and, I hope, forever) but it's not all I'm ever going to write. I'm not going to cheer the collapse of the book trade and praise BL for weathering it with a grin. I'm glad they are, but the whole situation makes me much more uneasy than most people, I suspect, since this is my career. It's all I'm qualified to do. I'm never going to make it in the NBA, after all. (GO SUNS.)
The cold truth for BL is that they're making more money than ever, and this has not only not affected sales, but the figures are better than ever. Again, that doesn't make me scream with joy (again, I'll point out that I was the only author to publically offer any sympathy and support - as well as explanation - over the limited edition hardback novellas), but neither am I going to lie about it to confirm a handful of pretty impolite guesses about something people have zero experience with.
dienekes96 wrote: While I get the frustration with the company (I don't necessarily agree with much of it, but I get it), I'm not sure I understand personally engaging ADB on it.
I try to answer everything I can, and I've spent thousands of posts across various forums answering questions - because the process is so occluded and the fandom so often has nothing but half-truths and assumptions to survive on.
But anyone that considers me a shill for GW is showing an alarming lack of awareness for the countless times I've been in public trouble for saying X, Y or Z about things that have annoyed me behind the curtains. I mean, even the Author's Note in The Emperor's Gift has now killed almost all Author's Notes outside of the HH hardbacks and omnibuses, because it was perceived by GW brass as being insulting. I've gone on record a few times as being the only one on the HH team to be against the hardbacks, because the extra money was meaningless to me. But conversely, I can't pretend a slightly different release schedule is the end of the world, especially not when the whole book trade is changing its formats.
The problem with explaining a lot of this stuff is that if it doesn't match people's assumptions, they prefer to see it as a lie. I once explained, in ludicrously pointless detail, how GW's canon works. It wasn't my opinion. It's how GW literally perceives the notion of canon, and how it works in the company. One of only three public records about that topic, and in more detail than any of the other two, using them as quotes for context to help correct misinformation based on famous misunderstandings of those old quotes.
A few days later on Dakka Dakka, there was a thread asking "What does ADB mean when he says all this stuff?" and several posters saying I was either lying or misinformed.
There's a reason I'm the only author that frequently posts on forums and tries to clear this stuff up. All the others are veterans, and have no interest in the endlessly cyclical arguments. I'm still naive enough to think people will believe the truth, and that a look behind the curtain offers useful perspective. Dan Abnett? Graham McNeill? Jim Swallow? Even Alan Merrett, GW's IP overlord and loremaster - they've all, at various times, shaken their heads and laughed at me for even bothering. I've started having to take long breaks from forums now, for this exact reason. You can spend hours a day on them, explaining basic truths and answering direct questions, and people will still turn around and call you a shill, or a liar, or just wrong if the answers don't match what they believe without any evidence beyond guesswork and old memes.
People never really seem to grasp just how insignificantly tiny the vocal minority of forum voices really are. If I was posting on here or Facebook to justify BL's actions and "save" a handful of potential sales... I mean, I literally can't even imagine a world where that would be true. It's so disheartening when people take communication and turn it into marketing, or believe everything is so base and ugly. But even if it was those things, assuming it would make any difference at all to sales is just madness. Far easier, and far wiser, to stay quiet in the first place. Dan never says a word, and his sales are doing fine. There's never, ever any need (or desire) to bounce onto a forum and try to "save" your sales or justify your publisher's actions to the handful of people that will see it. That's just nonsense. It staggeringly misunderstands the scale of it all.
EDIT:
TL;DR -- Waaaaah. How can you have perfectly reasonable and understandable doubts even after my briefest of brief explanations on Facebook? Here, let me try again now I have longer than five minutes, etc.
Aaron, would you be able to explain the reasoning behind the changes to advertising, and its being limited to one or two weeks, please?
Whilst I don't like the introduction of the hardback-to-paperback release schedule, I'll believe you and Dan when you say it helps sales etc., but I struggle to see the reasoning behind the changes to advertising?
I'd be interested to see your comment on the Limited Edition novellas (something that also frustrates me too), if you know where I can find it?
FWIW, your opinions on Canon and its variability have been pretty widely accepted and are something I see regularly touted on Dakka, and in response to people that ask about something's canonicity.
Just because certain people may say you're lying or misinformed, or whatever, doesn't mean that everyone or the whole of Dakka does: it's a vocal minority thing again. I dislike the changes made by Black Library and they have seriously reduced my enthusiasm for the company/HH series, but I'm not going to accuse you as being a liar because of it, nor are many/most others...
Alpharius wrote: So the shift in policy is due to the fact that GW makes the most money this way.
Yeah, we probably already had that figured out, but I suppose the confirmation is...nice?
Strange to hear that this method met them more than the previous model, but there it is!
It does sound odd (not disputing ADB now, thanks for the fuller explanation) as I'm another one who has cut back radically on the number of BL books I purchase, physical and digital.
A conceit many of us are guilty of is assuming we must be somehow representative of the wider market when we post here, but so many long term fans have stated they are pulling back from BL that I can only assume that
a) the majority are fibbing and still pitching cash at BL at a rate of knots
Or
b) the behaviour of the majority of the customer base is as counter intuitive as many of GWHQ's appear to be.
Or maybe however GW/BL is selling them now is netting them more favorable terms?
That would absolutely be the case in terms of digital sales from BL, and maybe now more people are going in that direction vs. paying HC prices and/or waiting for Trade Paperbacks/MMPBs?
Damn, thanks for weighing in, Aaron. I certainly appreciate the effort to communicate some of the whys and wherefores to your readers. (And I'm still definitely a reader -- albeit an entrenched softcover one!)
I'm not a big fan of BL's various recent marketing and merchandizing shifts. (My biggest gripe is with all the limited-novella bs.) But I do appreciate learning some of the background for other changes, esp. the format changes.
All it takes is, lets say, a third as many people to continue to buy direct from the Black Library as they buy from places like Amazon or Waterstones/Barnes&Noble for it to still stay in Games Workshops financial interests.
dienekes96 wrote: While I get the frustration with the company (I don't necessarily agree with much of it, but I get it), I'm not sure I understand personally engaging ADB on it.
I try to answer everything I can, and I've spent thousands of posts across various forums answering questions - because the process is so occluded and the fandom so often has nothing but half-truths and assumptions to survive on.
Aaron, I understand that you do engage the fans on the boards, and credit to you for spending your time doing that. My frustration was not directed at folks who spent time engaging you, but rather that they are engaging you on a topic for which you can provide insight, but is not germane to your expertise and time. Why waste their time asking you about the specific business practices when they could discuss the process or your stories or just engage you personally on being considerate enough to dive in.
This general sentiment towards GW (and subsidiaries) has essentially infected this board, such that every topic about GW becomes about what the mugs (and I include myself in that) think and rant about business practices we know nothing about. I think those deserve discussion, but it just can't stay focused in their own threads. As the old saying goes, the definition of fanatic is someone who won't change their mind and CAN'T change the subject.
Anyways, apologies if you felt that I was implying we shouldn't engage you. I just wish it could more often be on topics related to your authorship and insight into the writing process. Please keep doing it, and thank you for taking the time.
Well, I stand corrected and chastised. I admit I was a bit douchey. I still have trouble with the concept that making a product more expensive and harder to buy is a winning strategy, but it must be the case here.
I guess I'm just not a part of the new market, because I find Black Library's current shenanigans unfathomable. I'll still pick up the occasional mmpb, but it seems the current BL and I just have too many irreconcilable differences to keep up my passion for their product.
I guess I'm just not a part of the new market, because I find Black Library's current shenanigans unfathomable. I'll still pick up the occasional mmpb, but it seems the current BL and I just have too many irreconcilable differences to keep up my passion for their product.
What are they still doing in MMPB? Just the HH books?
I guess I'm just not a part of the new market, because I find Black Library's current shenanigans unfathomable. I'll still pick up the occasional mmpb, but it seems the current BL and I just have too many irreconcilable differences to keep up my passion for their product.
What are they still doing in MMPB? Just the HH books?
Yes, their 'Legacy' edition as they call it, because the vast majority were only printed in MMPB format. I think that also applies to Ciaphas Cain novels, but that's it. Anything else will be in Trade format only for the paperback version.
They clearly listen to the people who love spending money on hardbacks and e-books.
ABD mentions the Authors Note in The Emperor's Gift - is that in the hardback edition only, as it's not in the Trade version?
Aaron, if you're reading this, your stuff is like a breath of fresh air in the W40K world, and I'm looking forward to September when I can finally get my hands on Betrayer.
The only thing that jumped out in the authors notes were the first two paragraphs, touching upon how the codex came along and how this wasn't what he originally wanted to write, because the codex changed so much of the established background. I believe there is a blog post or two also dedicated to this back when it was still being written.
As I've said before, much to the hatred and derision of others in this thread, I really enjoyed Emperor's Gift, as it made a lot of the codex fluff much more palatable. Except for that sisters blood part, hell no to that bit of gak.
farmersboy wrote: They clearly listen to the people who love spending money on hardbacks and e-books.
ABD mentions the Authors Note in The Emperor's Gift - is that in the hardback edition only, as it's not in the Trade version?
Aaron, if you're reading this, your stuff is like a breath of fresh air in the W40K world, and I'm looking forward to September when I can finally get my hands on Betrayer.
If you've been having trouble finding the book you can order three different versions on BlackLibrary.com right now.
DBC/ADB - To be honest, I don't mind the move to trade paperbacks - its true, its been that way forever in the rest of the book business.
And to be honest, I also don't have a stake in it - I just buy ebooks since I got my kindle.
Thanks for engaging. It's great you speak your mind, and get stuff out to us in the community.
Thanks for writing great books that we anticipate and actually enjoy more than the initial anticipation.
On a seperate note, while we're getting out our Black Library beefs -
My only beefs, and nothing you can really make BL change, is the differential between
1) 'Hardback' ebook price and regular - considering that the 'enhanced content' is 2-3 ink sketches.
2) Currency differential - why on earth can I buy an ebook for $16 AUD from the BL site, and yet can get a free delivery real, substantial copy for less than half?
The second is the kicker. How on earth do they justify selling a purely intellectual property with no production costs past the first book at double the price? Not to mention double the price of the American ebook version.
I dislike it. It's cut back my spending as I cut out buying from the book depository, making each individual book order a harder choice to make.
farmersboy wrote: They clearly listen to the people who love spending money on hardbacks and e-books.
ABD mentions the Authors Note in The Emperor's Gift - is that in the hardback edition only, as it's not in the Trade version?
Aaron, if you're reading this, your stuff is like a breath of fresh air in the W40K world, and I'm looking forward to September when I can finally get my hands on Betrayer.
If you've been having trouble finding the book you can order three different versions on BlackLibrary.com right now.
And none of them is the one I'm waiting for...I'm not having trouble finding it, I'm merely waiting for the right version to be published.
farmersboy wrote: They clearly listen to the people who love spending money on hardbacks and e-books.
ABD mentions the Authors Note in The Emperor's Gift - is that in the hardback edition only, as it's not in the Trade version?
Aaron, if you're reading this, your stuff is like a breath of fresh air in the W40K world, and I'm looking forward to September when I can finally get my hands on Betrayer.
If you've been having trouble finding the book you can order three different versions on BlackLibrary.com right now.
And none of them is the one I'm waiting for...I'm not having trouble finding it, I'm merely waiting for the right version to be published.
I'd go with 'preferred' version - many less fights this way.
farmersboy wrote: They clearly listen to the people who love spending money on hardbacks and e-books.
ABD mentions the Authors Note in The Emperor's Gift - is that in the hardback edition only, as it's not in the Trade version?
Aaron, if you're reading this, your stuff is like a breath of fresh air in the W40K world, and I'm looking forward to September when I can finally get my hands on Betrayer.
If you've been having trouble finding the book you can order three different versions on BlackLibrary.com right now.
And none of them is the one I'm waiting for...I'm not having trouble finding it, I'm merely waiting for the right version to be published.
Well it was really good. I quite enjoyed it when I finished it about 6 months ago.
Also, I just want to say it seems like there's often this internet phenomenon where people will try to out negative each other and it really infected this thread and made it unreadable.
For example, if I just say I'm excited for the upcoming GG novel it must of course be met with some negative quip about BL's business practices. That leads to yet another debate about it. Like, I don't know, is that the point of this thread now? Just bitching about BL?
KamikazeCanuck wrote: For example, if I just say I'm excited for the upcoming GG novel it must of course be met with some negative quip about BL's business practices. That leads to yet another debate about it. Like, I don't know, is that the point of this thread now? Just bitching about BL?
Funnily enough, the final warning for that stuff was on page 8, then a final, totally super duper serious final warning on page 9.
I guess some of us have different expectations of these threads, I like them ( and you, from what I can tell) as discussing new/upcoming books, how good they are, etc, and leave business junk out of it. Whereas some want it as an all encompassing discussion about all things BL, business decisions included, which I personally find tedious and distracting.
Neither side is really wrong as Red never really laid down some guidelines on what he wanted these threads to be. He even partook in the business discussions earlier in the thread, I think.
I don't know, I was going to say maybe the the business side and the stories sides should be split into two different threads. On the other hand the is the "Black Library" thread so it makes sense for it to be all encompassing. I think we just tend to rehash the the same debate over and over which is uneccesary and quick hitter "BL sucks" quips are just poisonous so I wouldn't mind seeing an end to them.
Dead Blue Clown wrote: But the sales figures prove you wrong, as do our royalty cheques - now, I'm still not happy about the hardbacks
Why? You yourself say your checks are in larger amounts. Presumably, having book after book on the NYT Best Seller List helps grow your readership. I mean, I guess the checks would be larger if the folks who are still reading your books are paying a lot more for them. But what happens when the number of customers starts to dwindle rather than increase?
Dead Blue Clown wrote: but I'm not going to pretend they're killing BL because 3 people on Dakka Dakka prefer to call me an idiot and a liar than accept a tedious fact as truth because it doesn't match their uninformed guesses.
If you actually read this thread, you will find a few more than three people upset about BL's recent strategy. And they're upset about more than a change in the release schedule. Everyone I know in person who was reading the HH series has pretty much stopped. Same goes for a lot of the people who care enough about the HH series to post in this thread. And it's not because the writing has tanked or there are no more interesting stories to tell. So what does that leave?
I quite agree. There is an irreducible conflict of interest between consumers and the companies trying to sell them things. Best leave papering that over to marketing.
My group continues to read all of the HH books as they come out. Then again, all 7 of us have tablets on which we enjoy reading them, so the format change hasn't been a big deal at all.
Again, hallelujah for the ability to reclaim space
cincydooley wrote: all 7 of us have tablets on which we enjoy reading them, so the format change hasn't been a big deal at all
Yep, this keeps coming up ITT -- jah-joshua regularly chimes in with that point. If print is more costly by comparison, why not market it as a luxury format by creating "collector editions" or slightly larger paperbacks and jacking up prices? Then again, the "hardback edition" ebooks (lolwut) are still pricey ... seems the same as the cost of the trade paperback, right? Same goes for the "enhanced edition" ebooks.
cincydooley wrote: all 7 of us have tablets on which we enjoy reading them, so the format change hasn't been a big deal at all
Yep, this keeps coming up ITT -- jah-joshua regularly chimes in with that point. If print is more costly by comparison, why not market it as a luxury format by creating "collector editions" or slightly larger paperbacks and jacking up prices? Then again, the "hardback edition" ebooks (lolwut) are still pricey ... seems the same as the cost of the trade paperback, right? Same goes for the "enhanced edition" ebooks.
I hate to beat the dead horse, but all the BLs release schedule and pricing structure does now is reflect the whole of the publishing industry.
I mean, I just bought digital copies of the new Chuck Klosterman and Chris Kyle books, and each of those was $12.99.
We hear a lot of doom and gloom about publishing and bookselling but where is the evidence that there is less consumer demand for fiction? Is this not the era of book-driven media power houses, from Lord of the Rings through Harry Potter to Twilight and Hunger Games and many others? There is a healthy market for this stuff. Of course the increasing prevalence of mobile platforms is shaping that market but let's not just buy into publishers playing the victim card.
As the digital market develops, publishers are capitalizing on the opportunity to reduce costs and increase price. You don't have to make your living writing pulp scifi to figure that out. Read the news: It's not just book selling chains going under. There's fierce price competition and a strong and largely successful marketing push to convince consumers that digital books should not cost less than print books. For crying out loud, Apple is currently embroiled in anti-trust litigation for its price-fixing conspiracy with major publishing houses.
The idea that BL is just aligning itself with "the realities of the publishing industry" is not the full story, if you ask me. For example, if I want a digital copy of a new Star Wars novel, I don't have to get it from the Del Ray website. No, what's driving BL is much closer to home. Think about it: insipid "collector's editions," a preference for exclusivity over the retail market, and seeming indifference to consumer price sensitivity. BL is developing much more along the lines of its parent company rather than this nebulous, monolithic concept of "the publishing industry."
I refer you to this, which I already covered in my last post:
"People never really seem to grasp just how insignificantly tiny the vocal minority of forum voices really are. If I was posting on here or Facebook to justify BL's actions and "save" a handful of potential sales... I mean, I literally can't even imagine a world where that would be true. It's so disheartening when people take communication and turn it into marketing, or believe everything is so base and ugly. But even if it was those things, assuming it would make any difference at all to sales is just madness. Far easier, and far wiser, to stay quiet in the first place. Dan never says a word, and his sales are doing fine. There's never, ever any need (or desire) to bounce onto a forum and try to "save" your sales or justify your publisher's actions to the handful of people that will see it. That's just nonsense. It staggeringly misunderstands the scale of it all. "
You had your fun imagining nonsense reasons for why I post. I think it might be cool if you stopped it now, especially when you're directly calling me a liar. I explained, clearly, that your accusations for why I reply/post are nonsense. If the italic text is still somehow a fabrication you just can't accept, that's your call, but you're straying into personal attack territory.
Manchu wrote: The idea that BL is just aligning itself with "the realities of the publishing industry" is not the full story, if you ask me.
Of course it's not the full story. It's a significant part of the story, and no amount of denial will change the fact that the entire publishing industry is switching to trade paperbacks over mass-market. But I told you the rest of the story, too: it makes them a lot of money in a struggling industry, and it makes them a lot more money than they made previously. Is there some thrilling conspiracy you need to be true, dude? Is there some reason the banal and obvious truths just aren't enough? Because this is getting ridiculous.
You know Baen only does in house ebooks right? One of, if not the largest, Sci-Fi publishers in the business sells on their website only for Ebooks. But yeah, BL isn't lining up with the Industry.
Honestly I still see these books sell. I still talk to people reading them. Guess what, they didn't even notice the transition except that there was a bit of a gap between releases. We ARE a very small minority. And even in our small minority there are a bunch of people (myself included) who still purchase and read. You need to stop pushing your personal opinion as fact.
Manchu, if you'd like to get in on this whole "digital books fad" I'll gladly mail you one of my old kindles. You can store tons of books on it and its only a half inch thick!
Everyone you know stopped reading Horus Heresy?
Unless you have just two friends ,I call Shinanigins on this.
Why are you busting DBC's balls does he come to your job and knock the broom out of your hand?
There are still plenty of bestselling authors like Carrie Vaughn and Rob Thurman who only see release in paperback. The industry is constantly trying to "switch" into a new format to raise the price. Remember the new, Larger-Edition mmpbs from a few years ago that were an inch taller and $2 more expensive? Have you seen the new Walmart-sized mmpbs? This is just standard practice. The big publishers have switched all their lit fiction and required reading to trades despite having a near-captive audience and rock-steady sales. It is about money, yes, especially short-term greedy thinking. You can defend it all you want, but it is still just another action by another company trying to take advantage of loyal customers.
I'll believe it really is the only way to keep publishing when I see the romance section go all-trade paperback.
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Eisenhorn wrote: Everyone you know stopped reading Horus Heresy?
Unless you have just two friends ,I call Shinanigins on this.
Why are you busting DBC's balls does he come to your job and knock the broom out of your hand?
Everyone I know who cared about the HH also stopped reading. Local stores also aren't selling them as well. Heck, just look at how many fewer HH discussions there are on all sci fi fandom sites. Compare the number of recent threads about the Heresy to the number that popped up when 1000 Suns and Prospero Burns came out. Are you suggesting that huge numbers of people are buying these books but just no longer feel like talking about them?
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cincydooley wrote: Manchu, if you'd like to get in on this whole "digital books fad" I'll gladly mail you one of my old kindles. You can store tons of books on it and its only a half inch thick!
It's almost like something from start trek!
I'll take that challenge. A free kindle would really open up a lot of digital doors...
Manchu wrote: Presumably, having book after book on the NYT Best Seller List helps grow your readership. I mean, I guess the checks would be larger if the folks who are still reading your books are paying a lot more for them. But what happens when the number of customers starts to dwindle rather than increase?
We have the template GW uses. You start shifting books over more and more to exclusively available only through GW official outlets (BL site, GW stores and website) so they can keep 100% of the profits combined with instituting policies penalizing retailers who want to sell your stuff used.
You know Baen only does in house ebooks right? One of, if not the largest, Sci-Fi publishers in the business sells on their website only for Ebooks. But yeah, BL isn't lining up with the Industry.
Baen, as in the Baen Free Library? Where is the Black Library Free Library?
Besides, you know that Baen has a very strong political bent to their output (and has for years now) which ensures that they have a very loyal core following, some of whom loudly distrust other publishers for political reasons and will only buy SF from Baen, right?
By that standard, you've "directly called" me ignorant and insignificant. My reaction to your take on BL doesn't come down to calling you a liar -- which is a lame bit of rhetorical gymnastics, mind. It comes down to me not finding your arguments convincing/taking your financial interest into account. I'm not sure why you're determined to see this as a personal issue. What do I need to do, post a pic of all the books I've purchased with your name on them -- going back to Werewolf: The Apocalypse? To zoom back into the on-topic discussion: can you talk more about why you're still mad about the hardcover releases when you're making more money?
LOL and now I'm a conspiracy theorist ... just more ad hominem. What exactly do you think my conspiracy theory is?
To be clear, my thesis is pretty simple: BL is much more in line with its parent company GW than an industry as vast and diverse as publishing generally. A publisher that had just gotten not one but many books on the NYT Best Seller List (and reliably for that matter) was not saved from the brink by jacking up prices on reformatted books. Again, BL's interests are not the same as its customers. There's nothing in it for me in a deal where I get the same quality and quantity of fiction for double the price.
I am not saying and have not said that no one should buy books from BL anymore. As I have posted ITT, I recently bought Chris Wraight's Blood of Asaheim (EDIT: oh and I forgot I also bought the web exclusive Shadowsun novella) and will probably spring for Unremembered Empire when it comes out. But gone are the days when I'll pick up every HH book, regardless of who writes it and what I've heard about it. It's no more personal for me than it is for BL.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: There are still plenty of bestselling authors like Carrie Vaughn and Rob Thurman who only see release in paperback. The industry is constantly trying to "switch" into a new format to raise the price. Remember the new, Larger-Edition mmpbs from a few years ago that were an inch taller and $2 more expensive? Have you seen the new Walmart-sized mmpbs? This is just standard practice. The big publishers have switched all their lit fiction and required reading to trades despite having a near-captive audience and rock-steady sales. It is about money, yes, especially short-term greedy thinking. You can defend it all you want, but it is still just another action by another company trying to take advantage of loyal customers.
I'll believe it really is the only way to keep publishing when I see the romance section go all-trade paperback.
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Eisenhorn wrote: Everyone you know stopped reading Horus Heresy?
Unless you have just two friends ,I call Shinanigins on this.
Why are you busting DBC's balls does he come to your job and knock the broom out of your hand?
Everyone I know who cared about the HH also stopped reading. Local stores also aren't selling them as well. Heck, just look at how many fewer HH discussions there are on all sci fi fandom sites. Compare the number of recent threads about the Heresy to the number that popped up when 1000 Suns and Prospero Burns came out. Are you suggesting that huge numbers of people are buying these books but just no longer feel like talking about them?
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cincydooley wrote: Manchu, if you'd like to get in on this whole "digital books fad" I'll gladly mail you one of my old kindles. You can store tons of books on it and its only a half inch thick!
It's almost like something from start trek!
I'll take that challenge. A free kindle would really open up a lot of digital doors...
PM me your address. I'm open to anyone willing to jump on digital and realize the joys of it.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: There are still plenty of bestselling authors like Carrie Vaughn and Rob Thurman who only see release in paperback. The industry is constantly trying to "switch" into a new format to raise the price. Remember the new, Larger-Edition mmpbs from a few years ago that were an inch taller and $2 more expensive? Have you seen the new Walmart-sized mmpbs? This is just standard practice. The big publishers have switched all their lit fiction and required reading to trades despite having a near-captive audience and rock-steady sales. It is about money, yes, especially short-term greedy thinking. You can defend it all you want, but it is still just another action by another company trying to take advantage of loyal customers.
I'll believe it really is the only way to keep publishing when I see the romance section go all-trade paperback.
This is kind of what I mean. No one's saying it's the only way to keep publishing. But it's what a collapsing (truly, honestly collapsing) physical book trade is doing to sustain itself. At no point is anyone here saying it's wise. At no point is anyone saying it's virtuous. At no point is anyone defending it. They're just pointing out that it's happening, and a few anecdotal stories about how it's killing the Heresy series are essentially nonsense.
Don't take an explanation of what's happening as some spirited defence or rampart-breaking need to suddenly tow a company line I'm usually in trouble for breaking. I'd have just stayed silent and not bothered answering if there was a negative answer to give.
Manchu wrote: It comes down to me not finding your arguments convincing/taking your financial interest into account.
I'm not sure I know what you mean. I haven't shared many opinions in this thread, really. It's not my job to convince you, and my opinions are limited to "It's not the end of the world, but I agree it sucks for some folks". Beyond that, I'm happy enough just telling you the truth. I once explained (on 3++) how GW views Forge World's "legality". No one believed me. It didn't matter that it was the truth, in excruciating detail, as explained to me by dozens of HQ staff, including several department managers and one of the board of directors. Because it didn't match what a few fans believed from memes and guesses, they believed I was wrong, or that I must've had an agenda.
Manchu wrote: To zoom back into the on-topic discussion: can you talk more about why you're still mad about the hardcover releases when you're making more money?
Some, but not all. Even for someone with my dubious (at best) sense of professionalism, some of them are just behind-the-scenes issues that aren't really cool to discuss beyond closed doors. Suffice to say, I'd never, ever throw abuse at anyone that wanted to wait for the paperbacks, or thought the hardbacks were too expensive. Collector's Editions aren't for everyone, and I'd never suggest otherwise.
But I can share a few personal perspectives, sure. Firstly, there's the fact that money doesn't really motivate me to that degree, and while there was a sea change in my budgeting once Shakes came along last year, I still don't ever want to be in a situation where I write something "for money", so to speak. I did that once with a short story years ago, and I still hate the fact it exists. (The good reviews don't help, no.).
Secondly (and very selfishly) it's annoying in terms of career-ness, because getting to claim you're a NYT bestseller is basically author/publishing gold. I remember feeling like an absolute idiot at the Heresy meeting, when everyone else at the table looked at me like I'd just peed my jeans and started drooling, because I said "I'd rather hit the bestseller list than make more money." Hitting that list means more to me than making more money on a title, but because of the new release system everything's tracked differently. GW/BL and the authors make more money, but it screws any chance of hitting the NYT list since you're not going through traditional sales channels. In a moment of severely irritating timing, the switch to hardback came just before Betrayer, too. Which meant I was the only one on the team only to hit the list once, despite Betrayer's sales absolutely blowing most other HH novels' figures out of the water. But like I said, that's just lame, selfish personal stuff, and you could legitimately argue that "Grow up, Aaron" is the best reply to it.
Manchu wrote: To be clear, my thesis is pretty simple: BL is much more in line with its parent company GW than an industry as vast and diverse as publishing generally. A publisher that had just gotten not one but many books on the NYT Best Seller List (and reliably for that matter) was not saved from the brink by jacking up prices on reformatted books. Again, BL's interests are not the same as its customers. There's nothing in it for me in a deal where I get the same quality and quantity of fiction for double the price.
Then we're not even arguing at all, because I agree with that thesis, as presented there in those terms. Note, however, I never said BL were saved from the brink - I wasn't justifying it in any terms like that. Just that in addition to them doing it to make more money (because business, and because duh), they're basically adopting the flailing book trade's new traditions. However, I'll also note that BL is more in line with GW now (as in, the last 6-12 months) than it was before, when it was essentially aligned entirely with the book trade. It was the book trade's complete splatter-collapse that sealed the deal, though.
.. now when "Talon of Horus" is late and doesn't meet deadlines all those of you who posted here are to blame yes !?
Looking good there, I was especially impressed with Mr. Hinks warrior priest and more furry errrr.. I mean wolfy work from Mr. Wraight is something I'm very pleased about.
Again Bl's art director ...? .... person who sorts out the covers anyway, deserves much kudos.
BrookM wrote: A gigantic step away from the Space Marine battle covers, here's hoping we won't see any of those again.
If you were any other man I'd kill you where you stand ... well.. sit or slump disinterestedly !
Strokes for folks, I liked the nightmarish aspect that Mr. Sullivan brings to those covers but I can totally understand how others can be wrong could be left cold by it.
The Scars artwork was previewed a while back, here's the whole piece again
Why is it one suspects "The Legion divided" may refer to the Alpha Legion, rather than the Scars...? Although, that said, there's the distinct image of White Scars fighting amongst themselves there.
I'm disappointed again by the White Scars cover, however. The cover for Scars and Brotherhood of the Storm have both been disappointing. The Talon of Horus looks great though. The Stormcaller cover looks good, but appears oddly proportioned. Almost, dare I say it, chibi.
I'd still like to find out BL's reasoning for changing the Coming Soon section to 1-2 weeks notice, though...
I've also noticed the opposite to the idea people don't listen to AD-B: due to his position as a particularly-popular BL author, I've found (the vast majority of) people are always paying attention to and agreeing with his posts, as they carry more credibility; particular in background discussions. For example, now most people dismiss the Word Bearer's conjecture about the missing legions/Ultramarines in The First Heretic.
I once explained (on 3++) how GW views Forge World's "legality". No one believed me. It didn't matter that it was the truth, in excruciating detail, as explained to me by dozens of HQ staff, including several department managers and one of the board of directors. Because it didn't match what a few fans believed from memes and guesses, they believed I was wrong, or that I must've had an agenda.
I know it's off-topic but I'd be curious to hear about that, since I've never seen this before and I'm always curious to know how GW themselves view this whole Forge World thing...since they're apparently content to keep silent about it and let us argue with each other over it non-stop.
I can see what you mean about the weapon/armour designs.
Personally I liked the twisted kind of techno organicesque look he gave/gives stuff, at times.
Also captured the otherwordliness of the xenos or elves etc well too but MMV of course.
One assumes that the Scars book will, in some fashion or other, pick up upon some of the ideas introduced earlier in the series and touched upon again in some of the recent audio dramas, especially with regards to split or misplaced loyalties.
You know Baen only does in house ebooks right? One of, if not the largest, Sci-Fi publishers in the business sells on their website only for Ebooks. But yeah, BL isn't lining up with the Industry.
Baen, as in the Baen Free Library? Where is the Black Library Free Library?
Besides, you know that Baen has a very strong political bent to their output (and has for years now) which ensures that they have a very loyal core following, some of whom loudly distrust other publishers for political reasons and will only buy SF from Baen, right?
I'm aware of their political bent. But I'm also aware of how open Baen is to new authors. But that's really beside the point. Baen sells ebooks exclusively through their site. Yes, they have a free library of some of their older titles or titles that begin large series but it's by no means enormous. The point was that BL selling all Ebooks in house isn't unheard of. Baen even has "Advanced Reader Copies" that come out several months before general release and have a cost close to "hardback" ebooks which drops upon general release. Manchu said that the publishing industry wasn't doing what BL was doing. I just pointed out that there is an element similar to what GW puts out that has been doing what GW does for years now.
Huh, I'd forgotten about ADB's Black Legion series... looks like I may have to break my no hardback policy in order to get those. The cover certainly looks good and I have few doubts the contents will disappoint given the quality of prior works
If ANYONE can make me like reading out the Black Legion, it will be ADB!
I'll also admit to being a bit worried about the "LEGION DIVIDED" thing on the White Scars novel.
I'll wait, of course, before passing judgement, but I'm already more than a little annoyed with what's been done to the Alpha Legion after Abnett's great start...
Manchu wrote: We hear a lot of doom and gloom about publishing and bookselling but where is the evidence that there is less consumer demand for fiction? Is this not the era of book-driven media power houses, from Lord of the Rings through Harry Potter to Twilight and Hunger Games and many others? There is a healthy market for this stuff. Of course the increasing prevalence of mobile platforms is shaping that market but let's not just buy into publishers playing the victim card.
I think you're correct that fiction is doing fine right now. The bigger issue is there is so much more diversity now. More than ever, perhaps. People can e-publish their own books. There are hundreds if not thousands of publishers, now. So there's lots of competition, and it's easy for your niche to get lost in the shuffle.
How that relates to only selling your ebooks via your dedicated website versus letting others sell it via amazon, etc, I don't know. I'm no industry expert.
@ Aaron: Big fan of your work. Just completed Helsreach (trade copy) for the second time during plane trips to and from Chicago. I look forward to your next novels.
However, I'll be waiting on the MMPB releases, though. It's my choice. I don't care for Trade or hardbacks for my Horus Heresy books, or any books if I can avoid them. Neener-neener.
Man, I know three books I'm going to have to get .
As someone that loves his little pulp looking mmpb HH novels, I do have a HC and a few Trade paperbacks, and as long as the story in them is good, I couldn't care? I mean obviously I care about paying 30 bucks over 17-20 bucks (not positive on the TPB pricing) over 8 dollars to get the same story, but the biggest gripe I've had with this change over is the lack of release dates and what's coming down the pipeline. I own every HH release from Thousand Suns to Mark of Calth, not including Age of Darkness, The Primarchs, and Shadows of Treachery because they were compilations of short stories. Though I bought Mark of Calth not knowing that fact and was very pleasantly surprised . Nothing I look at tells me what is around the corner for HH novels. We've had the Unremembered Empire cover art since around November, and the title has been on our tongues here at Dakka since April of 2012. So when will it be released? I'd like to know so I could get it from my FLGS. I don't really care about the lack of 40k updates because news and rumors is still just as alive as it was before the Grey Knight release, but books are a bit of a different nature for me. I read like it's going out of style...
Ugh, sorry rant over. And thanks for coming into the thread Aaron, by far my favorite BL author, and I'd love to see your writing when it's not contained to the 40k universe.
From listening to Sword of Truth, however not having got round to Brotherhood of the Storm yet...
I suspect that the "A Legion Divided" will have very little, if anything to do with the Alpha Legion and be more focussed around the fact that....
Spoiler:
The White Scars bought really very heavily into the Lodge brotherhood of the 'Luna Wolves' and significant numbers of them supported Horus as a result.
Dead Blue Clown wrote: that's just lame, selfish personal stuff, and you could legitimately argue that "Grow up, Aaron" is the best reply to it
This is the part that really confuses me. In what sense is making the NYT's list publishing gold and at the same time just personal? Okay, yes I understand you are saying that it's personally satisfying to have books on that list -- but that's a huge professional boon, too. Just for example, you can print "NYT Best Selling Author" beneath your name anywhere, not just on BL's covers. And for BL, it certainly doesn't hurt to be able to print "Best Selling Series" on their HH covers.
I guess the question is, is that NYT marketing platform worth more than simply doubling prices? I believe you when you say just doubling prices (that's what this really boils down to) makes you as a writer and BL as a publisher more money right now. But I suspect BL will not see the same kind of growth in readership that it did between 2006 and 2010. I certainly could be wrong. If trade paperbacks are really the new black -- that is, if this really is about "the realities of the publishing industry" -- then HH books in trade paperback should be back on the NYT's list soon, right?
I don't think it has anything to do with the support of horus.
I think it has a lot more to do with the feral worlders of the White Scars being really at odds with those from Terra. This is based on the info from Brotherhood of the Storm.
Manchu wrote: If trade paperbacks are really the new black -- that is, if this really is about "the realities of the publishing industry" -- then HH books in trade paperback should be back on the NYT's list soon, right?
I can imagine that there's "Realities of the publishing industry" of Hardback > Trade paperback goes.
Which is a separate issue in ADB's mind of.
"Preorders, initial releases solely through Black Library when it's first released, causing a staged release and therefore not causing him to be on the NYT list anymore, as opposed to if it was everywhere at the same time."
But yeah, it probably is a matter of. Short term cash (BL/GW release method) VS Long Term growth as a internationally recognised professional writer (NYT Bestseller List).
It's not just the writers but also the series and ultimately the publishing house. Again, unless HH trade paperbacks start reliably making the NYT's list.
Manchu wrote: It's not just the writers but also the series and ultimately the publishing house. Again, unless HH trade paperbacks start reliably making the NYT's list.
Here's your key right here, dawg:
It is based on weekly sales reports obtained from selected samples of independent and chain bookstores and wholesalers throughout the United States.
Yep, I was assuming as much. I'm referring to another example of how BL is not aligning with the publishing industry generally, the exclusive hardcover release. It doesn't seem reasonable to me that exclusive release hardcovers that cost nearly four times as much as MMPBs can make up for much less exceed the revenue generated from the MMPBs -- especially keeping in mind that BL rode onto the NYT list with MMPBs. The real test would be a retail release HH hardcover.
In effect, for the NYT list, it could simply be that the Black Library isn't one of the wholesalers they poll.
I would assume though that one of the chains that gets polled is Barnes & Noble, which stocks HH books...
But not the Hardcover HH books, nor do they 'stock' the digital versions....
And seriously, by the time all the folks waiting for the MMPBs get around to reading them, most of the people really passionate about the series already have, either digitally, in hardcover, or in Trade. Based on what Aaron is saying, the overall #s of books being sold is actually increasing. However, they're more spread out, it would seem.
Like I said, by the time the MMPB comes out, I'd wager a good half to two/thirds of your HH readership has already read the book.
In effect, for the NYT list, it could simply be that the Black Library isn't one of the wholesalers they poll.
I would assume though that one of the chains that gets polled is Barnes & Noble, which stocks HH books...
But not the Hardcover HH books, nor do they 'stock' the digital versions....
And seriously, by the time all the folks waiting for the MMPBs get around to reading them, most of the people really passionate about the series already have, either digitally, in hardcover, or in Trade. Based on what Aaron is saying, the overall #s of books being sold is actually increasing. However, they're more spread out, it would seem.
Like I said, by the time the MMPB comes out, I'd wager a good half to two/thirds of your HH readership has already read the book.
They don't stock the Hardcovers? Are those BL directs? I mean my only HH hardback to date is Mark of Calth, though B&N Does stock other BL hard covers. I've seen Pariah, Emperor's Gift, and a few others in HC.
Wolf Brothers just went up for order on CD for anybody who hasn't downloaded it from blacklibary yet. You'll remember the CD was originally a black library weekender special edition. This might not have the fancy packaging but it's still a cd:
Dead Blue Clown wrote: that's just lame, selfish personal stuff, and you could legitimately argue that "Grow up, Aaron" is the best reply to it
This is the part that really confuses me. In what sense is making the NYT's list publishing gold and at the same time just personal? Okay, yes I understand you are saying that it's personally satisfying to have books on that list -- but that's a huge professional boon, too. Just for example, you can print "NYT Best Selling Author" beneath your name anywhere, not just on BL's covers. And for BL, it certainly doesn't hurt to be able to print "Best Selling Series" on their HH covers.
I guess the question is, is that NYT marketing platform worth more than simply doubling prices? I believe you when you say just doubling prices (that's what this really boils down to) makes you as a writer and BL as a publisher more money right now. But I suspect BL will not see the same kind of growth in readership that it did between 2006 and 2010. I certainly could be wrong. If trade paperbacks are really the new black -- that is, if this really is about "the realities of the publishing industry" -- then HH books in trade paperback should be back on the NYT's list soon, right?
I asked the exact same question in my authorial huff, though I asked it in a profoundly whinier way. The main weight of benefit is being able to say it's a New York Times bestselling series - and once you've cracked that, it's mostly diminishing returns in terms of nebulous prestige. That may not necessarily have been true X years ago when the physical book trade wasn't such a wounded creature lying on the deck and begging "Don't leave me, Soundwave...", but as it stands now, the previous system of selling extensively through bookstores is basically a thing of the past. (See: the bajillions of closing bookstores and floundering franchises). So their system of following sales trends of previous NYT bestsellers, etc. no longer has anything like as much relevance.
On a practical level, cracking the list lets you slap that fact on the covers, and the job's a good'un. Similarly, getting to say you're an NYT bestseller is "what matters", and getting on it again and again is just gravy.
It doesn't always feel that way to me, because like any writer I'm a fragile homunculus held together only by spit, spite and self-loathing, but I guess I can at least recognise the logic behind it.
I'm not so much talking about nebulous prestige as the power of the NYT Best Seller List as a marketing platform. I guess it gets a bit touchy (and no offense intended to any HH authors here) but I don't think every HH book that made the list clawed its own way on ... some if not all definitely had help from other books in the series that already made it. In any case, I look forward to seeing whether BL's HH trades ever make it back on the list and how much farther BL will withdraw into exclusivity.
As for the more immediate future -- Chris Wraight's continuing work on the SW and your own Abaddon books will certainly end up on my shelf, not to mention Graham's "of Mars" series. I guess it is the exclusivity that worries me the most, not really the reformat generally ... again, the issue with reformat being that I can no longer afford to give any book by any BL author a chance. I'm glad this didn't happen when you were new. I'd never have read Cadian Blood except at MMPB prices, ah what the hell. And I've bought all your 40k books since, minus Aurellian and Betrayer.
As for the more immediate future -- Chris Wraight's continuing work on the SW and your own Abaddon books will certainly end up on my shelf, not to mention Graham's "of Mars" series. I guess it is the exclusivity that worries me the most, not really the reformat generally ... again, the issue with reformat being that I can no longer afford to give any book by any BL author a chance. I'm glad this didn't happen when you were new. I'd never have read Cadian Blood except at MMPB prices, ah what the hell. And I've bought all your 40k books since, minus Aurellian and Betrayer.
So... is it the MMPB price you're missing, or the actual format itself?
Oh, it's just a matter of price. I know some people have said in these BL threads that they miss all their books looking similar but I'm not concerned with that.
i think it's fair to say we would all like lower prices...
that said, i'm guilty of buying the $15.99 enhanced eBooks, instead of waiting for the cheaper versions...
i like the art and afterword, and not having to wait for my fiction fix...
pretty much everything shown on the last page looks interesting, so i know i'll be snatching up Vulcan Lives, Scars, and Unremembered Empire...
the next Gaunt's Ghosts book sounds good, and digital Blood and Fire is available seperate from Helsreach (which i already have in print), so all in all it looks like the next few months will see some good reads...
Manchu wrote: Oh, it's just a matter of price. I know some people have said in these BL threads that they miss all their books looking similar but I'm not concerned with that.
So presumably you'd buy the HH books digitally at $8-10 then?
Speaking as someone who used to buy BL books regularly, the last book I bought was "The Sundering" omnibus.
Have bought nothing else not out of boycotting or anything like that; but out of sheer disinterest.
'The Horus Heresy' has gotten stale for my tastes and there is very little good Imperial Guard novels going around now to whet my whistle.
Still read "Cadian Blood" every other month though.
Agreed, things have gotten awfully stale. Shame really, as I'm dying for the next Dark Heresy novel to hit us. Or another Rogue Trader novel, that would be neat. Though chances are, neither are going to happen.
That said though, the Macharius trilogy so far is good.
. Not even mad.
Though I did like Fear to Tread whereas others didn't...
...
