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2013/05/16 18:12:03
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
cincydooley wrote: Okay, so two stories into Mark of Calth and I'm moderately happy so far. The Erebus story is..okay. Nothing bad, nothing special. The McNeill story is quite good. He goes for a present tense like Abnett in Know No Fear and it doesn't work quite as well, but his characterization is pretty fantastic.
Anthony Reynolds up next!
I'm just a little behind you as I haven't finished, "Calth That Was" but the Erebus story was interesting if nothing more than for the jump in space and time that seemed fluid. I'm really enjoying Calth That Was, Mark of Calth has been a solid read so far (picked it up not even realizing it was a collection of short stories . Not even mad.
Also, did people enjoy Fear to Tread. I could have sworn it got some flak here, but I've been enjoying it for the past 2 weeks.
I don't think Fear to Tread is bad, but the problem for me was that it was a bit lacking. It's our first taste of the Blood Angels, and there's very little done to expand their background or explain more about them. When juxtaposed with Prospero Burns, or Thousand Sons, or even Know No Fear, it's a bit underwhelming.
2013/05/17 04:27:18
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
cincydooley wrote: Okay, so two stories into Mark of Calth and I'm moderately happy so far. The Erebus story is..okay. Nothing bad, nothing special. The McNeill story is quite good. He goes for a present tense like Abnett in Know No Fear and it doesn't work quite as well, but his characterization is pretty fantastic.
Anthony Reynolds up next!
I'm just a little behind you as I haven't finished, "Calth That Was" but the Erebus story was interesting if nothing more than for the jump in space and time that seemed fluid. I'm really enjoying Calth That Was, Mark of Calth has been a solid read so far (picked it up not even realizing it was a collection of short stories . Not even mad.
Also, did people enjoy Fear to Tread. I could have sworn it got some flak here, but I've been enjoying it for the past 2 weeks.
I don't think Fear to Tread is bad, but the problem for me was that it was a bit lacking. It's our first taste of the Blood Angels, and there's very little done to expand their background or explain more about them. When juxtaposed with Prospero Burns, or Thousand Sons, or even Know No Fear, it's a bit underwhelming.
I'm only about halfway through Fear to Tread, even though I have been trying to read it since it came out. I've found nothing wrong with the story so far but at some points James Swallow's writing has left me cringing.
In places it feels like he is trying to follow Adnett's lead and move away from bolter porn into 'real' writing but he isn't good at it.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
2013/05/17 05:16:44
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
My conclusion with James Swallow is, you can tell he's not "really" a novelist. However, he is a better screen/scriptwriter which is why his audiodramas (the Garro series) are much better. It's also why Fear to Tread is MUCH more enjoyable as an audio book than actually reading it.
Conversely, "Know no fear" made a very poor audiobook, which took me literally months to slog through compared to days actually reading the novel.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/17 07:30:10
2013/05/17 09:37:01
Subject: Re:Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
this was a limited edition novella from .eerrrrr... quitesometimeago.
.. Kind of key to the final chapter/arc of the Soul Drinkers saga ... ( at least as it is so far anyway eh ...) so was somewhat baffling that this isn't included in the swanky looking new omnibus books for this series.
From FB, with reference to The Bloody Handed and Iron Warrior
both of those titles are available as standalone eBooks and in print as part of the Sundering and Iron Warriors Omnibus respectively. We don't have them on the schedule yet for standalone print editions, but that doesn't mean they won't appear in the future.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/05/17 14:01:23
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2013/05/17 09:42:49
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2013/05/17 12:02:31
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
I managed to pick up Gilead's Blood and Curse for $13.50 each today so I was happy.
They are good books.. right?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/17 12:02:47
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
2013/05/17 16:53:10
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
I remember reading Gileads Blood back when it first came out.
It's a very marmite book - some people see it as an example of one of GW's best stories. Others (including me), see it as a dreich, depressing novel that is only matched by Tolkein's Tale of Turin Turambar.
2013/05/18 18:51:17
Subject: Re:Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
Some news from the HH days, posted by Aryllon over at Warseer:
Gav thorpe talking about a eldar fall/pheonix lords series possubly in thr future along similar lines 1up HH Ideally no more than 6 months between Massacre and the next book (Battle of Phall)...
(...)
Abnett wants to do Unification Wars books
Bowdens next novel will deal with Legio Custodes.
We will not see Xenos in 30K.
"Bloody typical, they've gone back to metric without telling us."
"As the days go by, we face the increasing inevitability that we are alone in a godless, uninhabited, hostile and meaningless universe. Still, you've got to laugh haven't you?"
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
"Mind the oranges Marlon!"
2013/05/18 21:23:51
Subject: Re:Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
I used to get excited about new releases, now I don't really care, knowing how long I'll have to wait. I've got 170-plus mmpb novels, what the hell do I want with proxy ebooks?
"Bloody typical, they've gone back to metric without telling us."
"As the days go by, we face the increasing inevitability that we are alone in a godless, uninhabited, hostile and meaningless universe. Still, you've got to laugh haven't you?"
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
"Mind the oranges Marlon!"
2013/05/19 00:15:54
Subject: Re:Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
farmersboy wrote: I used to get excited about new releases, now I don't really care, knowing how long I'll have to wait. I've got 170-plus mmpb novels, what the hell do I want with proxy ebooks?
I know the feeling.
I miss the days when I'd know exactly what was coming out that month because three months prior I'd have been on the BL site already planning my purchases.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
2013/05/19 03:17:45
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
Agreed, i used to order at LEAST 70% of BL releases on Amazon months before they came out and always be checking the sites 'coming soon' section for my next read.
These days i find it very hard to get excited about their stuff.
Oh and i dont do ebooks. Not for me. I miss Hammer and Bolter.
WWW.conclaveofhar.com - Now with our first Podcast!
Also check out our Facebook Group!
2013/05/19 03:27:08
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
The Luddite normal sized dead tree loving brigade aren't the only ones locked out of new releases for nine months. You have to pay a near 100% mark-up on the ebooks for the first nine months of release. Not for me.
2013/05/19 03:32:09
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
Temujin wrote: The Luddite normal sized dead tree loving brigade aren't the only ones locked out of new releases for nine months. You have to pay a near 100% mark-up on the ebooks for the first nine months of release. Not for me.
Thats just insane. Does the data storage cost more for those nine months or something?
WWW.conclaveofhar.com - Now with our first Podcast!
Also check out our Facebook Group!
2013/05/19 04:33:38
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
Temujin wrote: The Luddite normal sized dead tree loving brigade aren't the only ones locked out of new releases for nine months. You have to pay a near 100% mark-up on the ebooks for the first nine months of release. Not for me.
Thats just insane. Does the data storage cost more for those nine months or something?
no, he is referring to the fact that they are now releasing the eBook version of the new hardbacks as "enhanced eBooks"...
they now cost $15.99, and have the illustrations and afterword that the $30.00 hardback have, too...
you can choose to wait 9 months for the $7.99 version, without art and afterword...
personally, i'm happy with the eBooks...
before i moved to Mexico, i was getting Gaunt's Ghosts, Ultramarines, Cain, etc., in hardback on release from my local discount retailer for $17.50 instead of $24.99...
that was 3 years ago, and more...
now i don't have that option, but even better, i'm still saving money with the eBooks, and get to read them even before the hardbacks are released from GW...
obviously, plenty of fans don't agree, but i'm stoked...
Mark of Calth was good, and Fist of Demetrius is great...
Seventh Retribution is about to get picked up again, with Deathwatch and Headtaker waiting in the wings...
there are plenty of cool new releases in my queue...
cheers
jah
Paint like ya got a pair!
Available for commissions.
2013/05/20 09:49:01
Subject: Re:Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
With regards to the e-books, Steve Parker posted the following with regards to his ( most enjoyable) Deathwatch novel
Just a heads-up. If you haven't bought my latest novel, Deathwatch, yet and are wondering if you should get the paperback version or the e-book version, please note: the paperback version includes my original 'as intended' formatting. The e-book version, however, seems to have lost all the italics which indicate inner monologue - making certain sections a little confusing to read - and the footnote details are at the back of the book instead of on the relevant page (unlike the paperback, which is perfectly formatted).
All in all, I'd strongly recommend you get the paperback version this time.
This grieves me, since I'm a guy who essentially hates the pulp and paper industry, but if you want to read Deatchwatch as it was meant to be read, formatted as I intended, then the paperback is the best way to go.
That is all. As you were, troopers.
which strikes me as being similar to an issue that cropped up with the last Cain novel IIRC ...?
And swiped from Warseer, presumably from the HH weekender
which would possibly appear about the void war a'twixt the WS, AL and SW ...
.. and maybe someone else... ?
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2013/05/20 12:45:32
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
reds8n wrote: With regards to the e-books, Steve Parker posted the following with regards to his ( most enjoyable) Deathwatch novel
Just a heads-up. If you haven't bought my latest novel, Deathwatch, yet and are wondering if you should get the paperback version or the e-book version, please note: the paperback version includes my original 'as intended' formatting. The e-book version, however, seems to have lost all the italics which indicate inner monologue - making certain sections a little confusing to read - and the footnote details are at the back of the book instead of on the relevant page (unlike the paperback, which is perfectly formatted).
All in all, I'd strongly recommend you get the paperback version this time.
This grieves me, since I'm a guy who essentially hates the pulp and paper industry, but if you want to read Deatchwatch as it was meant to be read, formatted as I intended, then the paperback is the best way to go.
That is all. As you were, troopers.
which strikes me as being similar to an issue that cropped up with the last Cain novel IIRC ...?
And swiped from Warseer, presumably from the HH weekender
which would possibly appear about the void war a'twixt the WS, AL and SW ...
.. and maybe someone else... ?
i'm reading Deathwatch right now, and the iBooks version still has the inner monologue lines in italics...
not only that, but a new feature i noticed is that the footnotes are live links...
when you click on the footnote number, it takes you to the list at the back really quick, and then touching the number in the footnotes takes you right back to page you were reading...
it's a cool little touch...
Parker must be reading his own book on a Kindle, because he couldn't have been more wrong about the version i'm reading...
now, bring on the White Scars!!!
cheers
jah
Paint like ya got a pair!
Available for commissions.
2013/05/20 13:11:53
Subject: Re:Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
If only the thing was on some sort of digital format where these sort of errors could be easily replaced by creating a corrected version available to then be... downloaded.
2013/05/21 11:34:26
Subject: Re:Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
Just finished Betrayer - figured I'd treat myself and splurge on the larger paperback - and was wholly disappointed and really wouldn't recommend it (despite it being AD-B, I know).
Ultimately, my general dissatisfaction can be attributed mainly to the portrayed ineptitude of the Ultramarines and Roboute Guilliman, and the unbelievable abilities of the World Eaters and Word Bearers. The book appeared to be a story about Kharn and Argel Tal's jaunty stroll - as they (literally) kick chainswords up into the air to catch with their hands - through the massed ranks of Ultramarines; who themselves are defeated at every turn and overcome through the World Eaters being very, very angry. With the events described in the novel, it would be hard to believe that there are [m]any Ultramarines or World Eaters left, not that there was or should be many of the latter anyway. Likewise, too many times were events described as against the odds or hugely lucky.
Really, my discontent is excellently covered in this review off amazon (although I also found the pacing troublesome, which wasn't mentioned); with this and other reviews suggesting I'm not alone in my opinion:
Spoiler:
I'm a fan of the Horus Heresy series and a big fan of Dembski-Bowden who is one of the outstanding writers in the Black Library stable. His writing here is of his usual high calibre with punchy, immersive battle scenes and some excellent characterisation but the problems with the novel are too big to ignore. Some minor spoilers below -
One of the highlights is his sympathetic portrayal of rebellious primarchs Angron and Lorgar. They are shown to be warm, thoughtful, intelligent beings, neither of whom believes they are evil but rather are victims of desecration of their honour by the emperor and the Butcher's nails (Angron) or doing what is necessary to lay bare the emperor's lies and reveal an, albeit unpalatable, truth (Lorgar). Their monstrousness is more subtly revealed by the barely mentioned but obvious fact that the background to their actions is the destruction of civilizations and the ending of billions of ordinary human lives, which they seem barely to notice in pursuit of their personal desires. The background to why Lorgar and Angron are as they are is explored and draws the chain of events leading to the heresy past Horus' vanity and Erebus' machinations back to the Emperor's own actions more potently in this book than in most of the others in the series.
Battle highlights are the titan battles and void combat. There are also great non-combat plotlines such as the continuation of Argal Tal's storyline in an unexpected but satisfying direction and the development of Kharn. There are great new characters such as Lotara Sarrin the world eaters flag-captain and other human and mechanicum characters. In the great non-astartes characters he creates the author tackles the question of how the World Eater's legion could be kept running if all Angron and his space marines want to do is charge the enemy head on at every opportunity. Its a well done reversal of the usual 'even though they were created to be warrior-servants of the teeming human multitudes the god like space marines do everything brilliantly and just allow the humans to tag along'. How Angron's insistance on his marines having the Butcher's nails is destroying the legion and how they cling to brotherhood as everything else that usually defines a space marine is stripped away is movingly explored.
Unfortunately there are also such big holes in the novel's plausibility that they can't be covered over by the quality of the description and characters.
Running at the enemy whilst shouting wins everytime: The problem is that in highlighting the problem with the Butcher's nails and the importance of the non-marine characters, Dembski-Bowden repeatedly points out that the World Eaters are like rabid animals with poor tactics, poor unit cohesion, poor communications, little battlefield command (what tactical direction there is comes from the human flag-captain), friendly fire incidents, little use of combined arms (eg their titan legion bemoans its loss rate as higher than other legions because the world eater marines just don't work in concert with them), poor battlefield discipline, a high casualty rate etc. Despite this we have to believe they slaughter their way through vast numbers of Ultramarines, the most tactically sophisticated, numerous, disciplined, brilliantly led etc legion, on their own territory. And the reason they can do this? Well, its repeatedly explained that its because they are aggressive. Snarling and waving your chainaxe around whilst charging at the enemy slightly more often than you charge your own battle brothers pretty much trumps any fancy tactical, superior firepower, or other nonsense the enemy might try and will always win the day. And even if your casualty rate is stupidly high your legion will somehow never get worn down by attrition. Its so daft that it seriously undermines the whole book.
Nobody minds being a traitor: The World Eater human and mechanicum characters in the story are all well described and easy to relate to. They are described as normal people doing their various military jobs. In fact, if you weren't told they were working with the World Eaters you'd probably assume they were loyal imperial citizens. There is absolutely nothing to indicate why any of these characters has turned against the Emperor. One of the major mechanicum characters even keeps a scroll message sent to him from the Emperor because it is precious to him and seems to still consider the Emperor as the Omnissiah he worships. Even odder than this is the reaction of a squad of World Eater dreadnoughts who are woken up having, with one exception, been asleep since not just before the heresy but before Angron was even found. The exception is the former legion master, appointed by the Emperor himself to run the legion until the primarch was found and who ended up in a dreadnought sarcophagus because his mad primarch nearly killed him just after his discovery. On being woken they are given a data upload which explains that their new Primarch - whom some had never met -is part of a rebellion to overthrow the Emperor - whom they were all loyally serving when they went to sleep - and they now need to go kill some loyalist space marines. They all just go off and do it without any indication of being troubled. 'Hey wake up. Listen, I know you loved and served the Emperor and were willing to give your lives for his vision of a galaxy wide imperium where humans would be safe and prosperous when you were last awake but we want to destroy the imperium you nearly died to forge, slaughter billions of the innocent then kill him and anyone who serves him, is that OK?' 'Uh, yeah, sure, count me in.'
Legion fighting legion? That's unthinkable before the heresy..oh, no, wait, no it isn't: One of the tropes that has kept recurring throughout the Horus Heresy series, especially in the early books, is how unthinkable marine fighting marine was before the heresy. Most major characters have agonized over it at some point, the news of it happening has been greeted with shock and disbelief, an ultramine character in Know no Fear was punished for having even contemplated the possibility of it. In Betrayer, the author casually drops in that the Space Wolves and the World Eaters had a full on pitched battle well before the heresy, used by Leman Russ to try to teach Angron a lesson. Which rather makes a mockery of the 'battle brother against battle brother has turned our whole perception of reality upside down its so impossible to even comprehend' lament that characters in the earlier books keep spouting.
Finally there is a personal annoyance - In the 40k universe humanity has spread across the galaxy to every imaginable ecosphere over tens of millenia but, with the exception of the Salamanders chapter who are all black, everyone seems to be white (or sometimes 'dusky' (ie meditteranean)). Not only in the novels but the artwork on model box covers, books, posters or the painted models in White Dwarf every month. Dembski-Bowden tackles this by pointing out in his novel that, unlike other chapters, the World Eaters are drawn from a vast mixture of ethnic types. He points this out immediately before having the only obviously black character, Delvarus, (who comes from a jungle, of course), being taught a much needed lesson in honour and brotherhood by a number of his more noble comrades who, where their ethnicity is described, are white. As one scene in one novel it doesn't really matter but, rather depressingly, it just seems part of the same unspoken and pervasive leaning in GW products. I have to admit, I (JD) didn't notice this bit.
So, the great writing we have come to expect from one of Black library's best writers, marred most particularly by the impossible need to make the utterly tactically inept World Eaters conquer everything in their path and for important characters to be traitors without any obvious reason. Buy it second hand on ebay, don't spend a tenner on it new.
Between this and the disappointing Angel Exterminatus, as well as the motivation-draining changes to Black Library policy, I think I may be finished with the Horus Heresy series once I've completed my own project which relies on its information.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/21 12:29:45
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2013/05/21 12:39:48
Subject: Re:Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
Between this and the disappointing Angel Exterminatus, as well as the motivation-draining changes to Black Library policy, I think I may be finished with the Horus Heresy series once I've completed my own project which relies on its information.
This is VERY troubling news - especially as a highly vlaue your opinion on these things...
Troubling times!
2013/05/21 12:40:15
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
Compel wrote: If only the thing was on some sort of digital format where these sort of errors could be easily replaced by creating a corrected version available to then be... downloaded.
As it happens BL were/are aware of the issue with .mobi format and an update will occur imminently.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2013/05/21 12:43:50
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
It was a very good review, and as to the point about the World Eater from the jungle...
//initiate Kanluwen Spoiler Spam//
Spoiler:
Delvarus wasn't "taught" a lesson by his more noble brothers because of his inherent ethnicity, which the author of the review seems to leave out, but it was because he left his assigned post to go and get glory on the battlefield for himself. Because of his actions, thousands, yes literally thousands, of the legion's serfs and crew members were killed because they were left defenseless. So they had to wake up the dreadnoughts which then means, now they have to explain to the dreads why they're fighting space marines... But Delvarus's homeworld ethnicity has nothing to do with his actual punishment, it was a far more bloody and brutal version of the Soap Party scene in Full Metal Jacket. It was members of Delvarus's legion teaching him the errors for abandoning his post. Glory for one at the cost of resources to the Legion is a punishable offense. With Angron being the way he is, I doubt the Primarch would have doled out punishment, and so it fell upon the individual leaders of pieces of the chapter to keep the Legion in line.
As to the idea of the World Eaters charging forth, I think that AD-B and many of the other Black Library authors tend tos how the resiliency and the strength the Legiones Astartes have to win a fight. While the Ultramarines on the planet didn't have much to fight for, they were defending their planet against attack, they were caught unawares (due to communications from Calth being down, no word from the Primarch, etc...) they didn't have anything worth fighting for. The reason why the World Eaters will push and push and push is because they are constantly fighting for release from the Nails. They are drug addicts pure and simple, they are trained killers seeking to finally reach the peace and Nirvana that the Nails promises them, which is why they break formation, which is why they lose more men than they should, and it's why they are able to win the impossible fights they do, because even when their legs are broken and their arms are maimed, the World Eaters need that release from the Nails bite. I think the only other legion that might know their pain are the Blood Angels during Fear to Tread, while many people didn't like the novel, I felt it was another good idea as to what the Angels would go to to win against impossible odds. They fought man, daemon, and sometimes Astartes (If you were the Flesh Tearer), and they nearly lost themselves, but they also fought the very nature that simmered beneath the surface waiting to explode to the surface and ruin a legion. And yet, a handful of the Legion pushed forward and made it to the Cathedral of the Mark to face the Daemons inside, the librarians fought against the edicts of the Imperium and they all nearly gave their lives to save their Primarch... I think that is what we as readers can come to take from many of these recent stories is that the Space Marines will push beyond their limits to achieve victory...
I'm sure I've rambled on long enough though
DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+ Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics