wowsmash wrote: I think what makes you appear like their greatest fan is more the fact of your selective reading. You see what you want to see and nothing more. You then blam others for not wanting to willing blinding themselves.
I guess you selectively read only the parts of my post that didn't talk about how I have many critiques of GW, huh? No hard feelings, just joking you.
wowsmash wrote: I think what makes you appear like their greatest fan is more the fact of your selective reading. You see what you want to see and nothing more. You then blam others for not wanting to willing blinding themselves.
I guess you selectively read only the parts of my post that didn't talk about how I have many critiques of GW, huh? No hard feelings, just joking you.
You say that, but only in what appears to be a bid to save yourself from public ridicule - that and the "many critiques" weren't that many and frankly quite vague compared to your methodical cherry picking comments.
Morachi wrote: You say that, but only in what appears to be a bid to save yourself from public ridicule - that and the "many critiques" weren't that many and frankly quite vague compared to your methodical cherry picking comments.
If I loved GW, I wouldn't post on these forums. The main reason that I post here ("here" being in Dakka Discussions) is that I neither love nor hate GW and I can see myself potentially switching away from their games in the future. If so, I want Dakka to be a good place for me to find information on other games, and when Dakka or at least a substantial part of Dakka maintains this anti-GW bias, it's no longer a trustworthy source of information on other games.
Also, "cherry picking" seems to be the new no-content insult of the week. Get it while it's hot!
Well i'm open to other synonyms for "Cherry Picking", evidently if enough people are saying it then the context holds weight, or are you going to attempt brushing that aside too? Wait, don't answer that, I fear I know the answer and it would only cause more face palming.
The fact is, you very selectively go on tangents to the main issue, picking specific fact whilst disregarding the whole picture to favour your viewpoint. That is in essence, cherry picking. Nothing will change that i'm affraid.
Morachi wrote: Well i'm open to other synonyms for "Cherry Picking", evidently if enough people are saying it then the context holds weight, or are you going to attempt brushing that aside too? Wait, don't answer that, I fear I know the answer and it would only cause more face palming.
This sounds an awful lot like you're saying that if enough people say something, it becomes true.
Morachi wrote: The fact is, you very selectively go on tangents to the main issue, picking specific fact whilst disregarding the whole picture to favour your viewpoint. That is in essence, cherry picking. Nothing will change that i'm affraid.
Name three examples or go away. I'm getting increasingly bored with seeing criticisms without justification or reasoning behind them.
I'm saying if enough people make an observation on your conduct, then it holds weight. Your attempts at dismissing your peers isn't working, and only bolstering the views they hold against you, confirming their original agreed upon observation.
As for your examples, even if I pointed them out, you would refute each the very same way you have the entire thread - that and the thought of going back over 11 pages tedious at best. I'll get back to this when I have motivation to do so, i'm presently attempting to enjoy my Friday night here.
1. Ignoring to factor in the metal to plastic change with regards to price "reductions". It is in fact, different products replacing each other so they are not the "same" products. Factoring this in will not support your argument that prices are in fact dropping.
2. Saying that RTS is dead while ignoring the fact that an RTS, Starcraft 2, is one of the most popular videogames right now.
3. Saying that TSR and GW has no parallels except for the C&D thing (and saying that GW is in fact doing the opposite of what TSR is doing), even though posters already pointed out all of the parallels.
4. Saying that skirmish wargames and 40k/WHFB games are vastly too different to be considered as GW's direct competition. On this one you just consider your anecdotal evidence and ignore everyone else's anecdotal evidence.
5. Saying that KoW rules sucked and internet reviews agree (or at least call it "meh"), while a simple google search will reveal that it is full of good and positive feedback.
Morachi wrote: I'm saying if enough people make an observation on your conduct, then it holds weight.
Not when there are obvious perverse incentives at play.
Morachi wrote: As for your examples, even if I pointed them out, you would refute each the very same way you have the entire thread - that and the thought of going back over 11 pages tedious at best. I'll get back to this when I have motivation to do so, i'm presently attempting to enjoy my Friday night here.
Morachi wrote: I'm saying if enough people make an observation on your conduct, then it holds weight.
Not when there are obvious perverse incentives at play.
Morachi wrote: As for your examples, even if I pointed them out, you would refute each the very same way you have the entire thread - that and the thought of going back over 11 pages tedious at best. I'll get back to this when I have motivation to do so, i'm presently attempting to enjoy my Friday night here.
Somehow I'm not surprised...
Nor am I at your attempts at dismissal.
GW's actions are perverse, not the observations this community hold with good reason. Please see below, take your pick, hell mix and match perversions until your heart's content;
The Decade of Dickishness
Note: The following does not include the regular price increments, frankly there are too many to list. I'm sure there are many more addages to this, but these are the standout cliff notes.
2003 -
Online Sales in North America blocked, restricted only to GW Online Sales via their webstore. Distribution of goods outside US prohibited.
2009 -
Games Workshop send correspondence to eBay, requesting restrictions be imposed on the resale of any GW produced merchandise. eBay effectively flip them off.
2011 -
UK Embargo, blocking sales of GW product to anywhere outside of the UK.
Finecast (Failcast) is introduced as a cost cutting measure to the company, albeit at a much higher price to the consumer. Due to the high amount of defects in Finecast product casting some major retailers temporarily stop stocking it (Wayland Games in particular).
Further to the price hike on resin models an additional price rise is brought in shortly after in line with their 6 month/yearly "inflation" costs.
2012-
GW stores introduce single staffer model. Stores now close during lunchtimes. Provision of paints/materials that were previously a hobby starter "value add" are now revoked.
Mark Wells departs as CEO under speculative circumstances, his position being absorbed into the existing Director role (Tom "BIG CASH!" Kirby).
2013 -
Space Marine trademark. An Independent author a book removed from Amazon due to a claim by GW that they own the term "Space Marine". Games Workshop cops a bashing and it is cited that there are no grounds for such a long standing term to be considered "owned".
Social Media withdrawal. Games Workshop in the wake of the trademark backlash remove their HQ England and North American Facebook pages in a bid to silence the anger from fans and authors alike. GW cite that pushing customers to "local" pages is their reasoning for this - really this is a means to decentralising the backlash so customers have no central point of information on the subject. Comments are (and have been) disabled on YouTube to cripple any further negative response from being seen publicly.
Direct only rulebook announced which annoys many retailers. Not being able to sell the rulebook to the miniatures they stock is the reasoning behind this.
New trade guidelines for distributors and retailers. Canada now unable to partake in online sales at a retail level. Stores close as a result. Direct only ordering limits (reduced to 10% in some cases) imposed on distributors and retailers, reducing profit and forcing sales towards GW Online. Distribution and retail of goods outside North America & Canada now prohibited.
Bitz sales are also prohibited at risk of the affiliated account being cut off from supply.
Digital book price rise. Books on iTunes are raised to that of hardback prices.
GAMA and other Retailer events. GW basically flip everyone the bird, bringing in a single blank demo table. Their "paint workshop" was nothing more than a "Here's a space marine and five paints - have at it"... and a single rep repeating the same line in response to angered retailers "There's nothing I can do, but i'll pass on your concerns". No comments, no feedback, just stone walling.
Stock delayed to retailers, whilst plenty is available online via GW Direct. This is seen as a means to boost online sales through GW direct web/mail order channels, whilst reducing profit loss normally occurring by sales through retail/distribution channels.
Oh really? Well I better quote it then for visibility sake.
heartserenade wrote: 1. Ignoring to factor in the metal to plastic change with regards to price "reductions". It is in fact, different products replacing each other so they are not the "same" products. Factoring this in will not support your argument that prices are in fact dropping.
2. Saying that RTS is dead while ignoring the fact that an RTS, Starcraft 2, is one of the most popular videogames right now.
3. Saying that TSR and GW has no parallels except for the C&D thing (and saying that GW is in fact doing the opposite of what TSR is doing), even though posters already pointed out all of the parallels.
4. Saying that skirmish wargames and 40k/WHFB games are vastly too different to be considered as GW's direct competition. On this one you just consider your anecdotal evidence and ignore everyone else's anecdotal evidence.
5. Saying that KoW rules sucked and internet reviews agree (or at least call it "meh"), while a simple google search will reveal that it is full of good and positive feedback.
Morachi wrote: Oh really? Well I better quote it then for visibility sake.
heartserenade wrote: 1. Ignoring to factor in the metal to plastic change with regards to price "reductions". It is in fact, different products replacing each other so they are not the "same" products. Factoring this in will not support your argument that prices are in fact dropping.
I've addressed this issue multiple times. I don't compare prices of kits but rather of units-- thus you see prices compared based on options taken, units compared by per-model costs if the number of models in a unit change, etc. For this reason I am fine with comparing a plastic box to a metal box (or set of blisters) if the two kits produce the same unit.
heartserenade wrote: 2. Saying that RTS is dead while ignoring the fact that an RTS, Starcraft 2, is one of the most popular videogames right now.
heartserenade wrote: 3. Saying that TSR and GW has no parallels except for the C&D thing (and saying that GW is in fact doing the opposite of what TSR is doing), even though posters already pointed out all of the parallels.
So the fact that I disagreed with other people indicates "cherry picking?"
heartserenade wrote: 4. Saying that skirmish wargames and 40k/WHFB games are vastly too different to be considered as GW's direct competition. On this one you just consider your anecdotal evidence and ignore everyone else's anecdotal evidence.
This argument was accepted by people here when it was used in order to attack GW. People only contested this point when I said it because they disagreed with my conclusion.
heartserenade wrote: 5. Saying that KoW rules sucked and internet reviews agree (or at least call it "meh"), while a simple google search will reveal that it is full of good and positive feedback.
I didn't say that. I said that every review that I had seen was against it. Someone else posted the "meh" review, which I had not seen prior to posting here.
Indeed malfred, attempting to - somehow it gets dragged into superfluous attempts at tangent hopping :/
Id like the point out that the only positive response towards GW i've seen have been for the following reasons;
1. The release schedule has been ramped up, meaning people's investments remain valid in the sense of miniature use (tabletop wargaming)
2. Model craftmanship, GW's studio still puts out some decent stuff, despite the corporate decisions that have us all face palming (well, the majority of us in this thread it seems).
I've just been looking at the discussion threads and see (at a glance, I may be wrong) no other threads discussing how upset the customers/retailers/distributors are with any other game manufacturer out there.
Whilst other companies have had their problems and learned from them (be they supply problems, manufacturing issues etc), GW have decided to chuck a hissy fit like a school yard brat coming in second place at a track event.
Morachi wrote: Indeed malfred, attempting to - somehow it gets dragged into superfluous attempts at tangent hopping :/
Id like the point out that the only positive response towards GW i've seen have been for the following reasons;
1. The release schedule has been ramped up, meaning people's investments remain valid in the sense of miniature use (tabletop wargaming)
2. Model craftmanship, GW's studio still puts out some decent stuff, despite the corporate decisions that have us all face palming (well, the majority of us in this thread it seems).
I've just been looking at the discussion threads and see (at a glance, I may be wrong) no other threads discussing how upset the customers/retailers/distributors are with any other game manufacturer out there.
Whilst other companies have had their problems and learned from them (be they supply problems, manufacturing issues etc), GW have decided to chuck a hissy fit like a school yard brat coming in second place at a track event.
The question you have to ask yourself is-- is GW different? Or is the community's response to GW different?
GW have been this way for as long as I can recall, however the community tolerated it to a point back when I started.
Mumblings were heard, but nothing as loud as the outrage that is now felt in the community. Looking at the Decade of Dickishness, there is a clear parallel drawn between how vocal the community is and how GW have reached new heights in negatively impacting the community through the decisions they make.
In effect, as GW's dickishness escalates, so to does the volume of negativity towards GW the community responds with.
I guess I'll just reply to Kingsley on PM then. Lost cause, but hey I've got nothing better to do.
On topic:
In effect, as GW's dickishness escalates, so to does the volume of negativity towards GW the community responds with.
This. Sure, even great companies will suffer some form of criticism, but that doesn't mean bad companies are good companies too because they also suffer some form of criticism.
And bad companies will have heaps of criticism piled on them compared to good companies.
Morachi wrote: GW have been this way for as long as I can recall, however the community tolerated it to a point back when I started.
Mumblings were heard, but nothing as loud as the outrage that is now felt in the community. Looking at the Decade of Dickishness, there is a clear parallel drawn between how vocal the community is and how GW have reached new heights in negatively impacting the community through the decisions they make.
In effect, as GW's dickishness escalates, so to does the volume of negativity towards GW the community responds with.
That's exactly my experience as well, yes you hear a lot more GW 'bashing' now but none of the threads on here are just 'waaaa, GWs prices are too high' they are all started when GW does something stupid.
Well I am going to go to the original topic that the OP posted at the start of this thread:
I think it is kind of bull how GW treats all of its fanbase and/or potential like they are inferiors and the internet as 'freeloaders" except their store front, and this presentation (if you can call it that from what I have read) shows me two things in my eyes (this is my opinion, so this may be subjective overall):
1. They are so isolated from what is going and want to ignore the fact there is competition slowly growing and catching up with them, and the recent moves and actions they have been doing leading up to now is a desperate, albeit poorly thought out, show that is very unprofessional and is not caught up with the current times at all.
-or-
2. Kirby is just trying to milk the IP's GW has for what it is worth before he decides to abandon the sinking ship that is Games Workshop with a nice, juicy, fat check worth a lot of money as he laughs along his merry way.
Which is a kind of a shame, since I like 40k and fantasy, and that is what mostly got me into Miniwargaming today! If GW does go under, I hope that someone can get their IP's and that, because since it is the thing that made the Miniwargaming scene more well-known today and can be a goldmine that can get fans of Warhammer and 40k that are disgruntled with GW back into it, if done right. But I think that is more than optimistic thinking in my part. :(
Of course the GW/Forgeworld models are 2x as expensive.
I take issue with this example. Both the GW squad and the Highshields are more likely logical more maneuverable evolutions of the arbalest firing from behind a siege shield or archers firing from behind a mantlet. The Assault Kommandos are more derived from the Calsow Assault Detachment from WWI, which used heavy shields and armor to assault trenches.
Tell anyone to devise a heavily armored person with a gun and shield, and there will obviously be similarities in appearance.
Morachi wrote: I'm saying if enough people make an observation on your conduct, then it holds weight.
Not when there are obvious perverse incentives at play.
Morachi wrote: As for your examples, even if I pointed them out, you would refute each the very same way you have the entire thread - that and the thought of going back over 11 pages tedious at best. I'll get back to this when I have motivation to do so, i'm presently attempting to enjoy my Friday night here.
Somehow I'm not surprised...
Nor am I at your attempts at dismissal.
GW's actions are perverse, not the observations this community hold with good reason. Please see below, take your pick, hell mix and match perversions until your heart's content;
The Decade of Dickishness
Note: The following does not include the regular price increments, frankly there are too many to list. I'm sure there are many more addages to this, but these are the standout cliff notes.
2003 -
Online Sales in North America blocked, restricted only to GW Online Sales via their webstore. Distribution of goods outside US prohibited.
2009 -
Games Workshop send correspondence to eBay, requesting restrictions be imposed on the resale of any GW produced merchandise. eBay effectively flip them off.
2011 -
UK Embargo, blocking sales of GW product to anywhere outside of the UK.
Finecast (Failcast) is introduced as a cost cutting measure to the company, albeit at a much higher price to the consumer. Due to the high amount of defects in Finecast product casting some major retailers temporarily stop stocking it (Wayland Games in particular).
Further to the price hike on resin models an additional price rise is brought in shortly after in line with their 6 month/yearly "inflation" costs.
2012-
GW stores introduce single staffer model. Stores now close during lunchtimes. Provision of paints/materials that were previously a hobby starter "value add" are now revoked.
Mark Wells departs as CEO under speculative circumstances, his position being absorbed into the existing Director role (Tom "BIG CASH!" Kirby).
2013 -
Space Marine trademark. An Independent author a book removed from Amazon due to a claim by GW that they own the term "Space Marine". Games Workshop cops a bashing and it is cited that there are no grounds for such a long standing term to be considered "owned".
Social Media withdrawal. Games Workshop in the wake of the trademark backlash remove their HQ England and North American Facebook pages in a bid to silence the anger from fans and authors alike. GW cite that pushing customers to "local" pages is their reasoning for this - really this is a means to decentralising the backlash so customers have no central point of information on the subject. Comments are (and have been) disabled on YouTube to cripple any further negative response from being seen publicly.
Direct only rulebook announced which annoys many retailers. Not being able to sell the rulebook to the miniatures they stock is the reasoning behind this.
New trade guidelines for distributors and retailers. Canada now unable to partake in online sales at a retail level. Stores close as a result. Direct only ordering limits (reduced to 10% in some cases) imposed on distributors and retailers, reducing profit and forcing sales towards GW Online. Distribution and retail of goods outside North America & Canada now prohibited.
Bitz sales are also prohibited at risk of the affiliated account being cut off from supply.
Digital book price rise. Books on iTunes are raised to that of hardback prices.
GAMA and other Retailer events. GW basically flip everyone the bird, bringing in a single blank demo table. Their "paint workshop" was nothing more than a "Here's a space marine and five paints - have at it"... and a single rep repeating the same line in response to angered retailers "There's nothing I can do, but i'll pass on your concerns". No comments, no feedback, just stone walling.
Stock delayed to retailers, whilst plenty is available online via GW Direct. This is seen as a means to boost online sales through GW direct web/mail order channels, whilst reducing profit loss normally occurring by sales through retail/distribution channels.
Rabble rabble this is nothing, you guys are just being whiners! All hail GW.
I'd also add their moronic secrecy policy, hardcover codices destroying Black Library, and White Dwarf turning to shitbuckets.
Harriticus wrote: Rabble rabble this is nothing, you guys are just being whiners! All hail GW.
I'd also add their moronic secrecy policy, hardcover codices destroying Black Library, and White Dwarf turning to shitbuckets.
The so-called "decade of dickishness" is just a dumb phrase. First off, it seems like the real complaints started in 2009 and they just added the online sales thing in 2003 to make it seem like this had been going on forever. Second, practically any organization will look bad if you focus entirely on things that you don't like. You could just as well make a similar list with everything GW has done well across whatever period.
Harriticus wrote: Rabble rabble this is nothing, you guys are just being whiners! All hail GW.
I'd also add their moronic secrecy policy, hardcover codices destroying Black Library, and White Dwarf turning to shitbuckets.
The so-called "decade of dickishness" is just a dumb phrase. First off, it seems like the real complaints started in 2009 and they just added the online sales thing in 2003 to make it seem like this had been going on forever. Second, practically any organization will look bad if you focus entirely on things that you don't like. You could just as well make a similar list with everything GW has done well across whatever period.
Go for it.
They've held troop costs roughly equal to inflation since the 2004 price increase, but that's at best neutral.
Bringing out Space Hulk was pretty awesome but balanced by it being limited edition.
If they keep putting out codices at the rate they've been since 6th ed came out, they'll finally have an edition where everyone has an up to date codex AND there may even be a couple years to enjoy the game before it gets all mucked up aga
Entering into digital distribution is a nice start, but the restriction to the iOS world really limits this being 'done well'.
They've held troop costs roughly equal to inflation since the 2004 price increase, but that's at best neutral.
Bringing out Space Hulk was pretty awesome but balanced by it being limited edition.
If they keep putting out codices at the rate they've been since 6th ed came out, they'll finally have an edition where everyone has an up to date codex AND there may even be a couple years to enjoy the game before it gets all mucked up aga
Entering into digital distribution is a nice start, but the restriction to the iOS world really limits this being 'done well'.
Quality of plastic sculpts i feel went up alot of the newer models are muuuuch easier to build and a lot of customizable parts make for happy converters.
Harriticus wrote: Rabble rabble this is nothing, you guys are just being whiners! All hail GW.
I'd also add their moronic secrecy policy, hardcover codices destroying Black Library, and White Dwarf turning to shitbuckets.
The so-called "decade of dickishness" is just a dumb phrase. First off, it seems like the real complaints started in 2009 and they just added the online sales thing in 2003 to make it seem like this had been going on forever. Second, practically any organization will look bad if you focus entirely on things that you don't like. You could just as well make a similar list with everything GW has done well across whatever period.
I'm sorry but that is the biggest load I've ever heard. You can't justify bad behavior because you also do good things. It doesn't work that way.
They've held troop costs roughly equal to inflation since the 2004 price increase, but that's at best neutral.
If you're Space Marines or Necrons perhaps. Certainly not if you play say, Guard or Sisters.
For Troops, Guard, Sisters, and Tyranids went up. Dæmons, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Grey Knights, and in practice Orks went down. Everyone else stayed more or less the same or went up or down depending on options.
As for good things that GW has done in the last short period, they're pretty easy to find:
-Vast, constant improvement in sprue design, density of parts on a sprue, and overall fit. This in turn enables kits to come with far more bitz and customization options. Compare the new Pathfinders to the Fire Warriors, for instance. Or compare 3rd edition Tactical Marines to 4th edition Tactical Marines to Devastators to the Stormtalon to get a more detailed view of how things have shifted over time.
-Release of 5th and 6th edition, IMO the best editions of 40k yet.
-Rules put into White Dwarf again (this is something the community has been requesting for years)
-Accelerated release schedule updating people's armies to the new edition at a greatly increased pace
-Forge World putting out Horus Heresy books and units (again something that has been requested for years)
-Excellent video game tie-ins
-Re-release of Space Hulk
-Availability of digital Codexes
-Increased pace of FAQ/errata release resolving many important questions
-Better-written books limiting the need for FAQ/errata in the first place (quote from Yakface on a thread collecting questions about the new Tau: "I guess this codex is pretty darn well written because it seems as though the vast majority of the questions being submitted are simply:
The rules are crystal clear, but is that REALLY what you mean by those rules?
Honestly, unless its something completely egregious that seems like it *must* be a loophole then it should probably be answered in a FAQ, but most of these things are just...well, the rules!")
I could go on and on here, that's just off the top of my head. Now is that an accurate description of GW's track record over the last short while? No, it obviously isn't-- it's very one-sided! But no more one-sided than the "decade of dickishness" being claimed by others. You have to take the good with the bad and form a balanced perspective, not just stockpile cheers or jeers.
I bet if GW had much lower prices a lot of these other complaints would go away. The price vs quality issue is the only issue that effects whether or not I buy something from GW and I bet it is the same for the majority of past and present GW customers. At this time I only buy the absolute bare minnimum of GW product to keep my hobby going because I just think the price to quality ratio is over the moon in a bad way.
A number of things that people have complained about in this thread and others strike me as coming from someone that is just not being realistic. Other things I find to be rather nonconsequential.
From the decade of dickishness list
1. GW going to one man stores and not supplying free paints and closing at lunch time. So what, if they need to cut costs then reducing the number of employees is the first step companies always take. No longer giving out free supplies? LOL buy your own stuff, I dont know any other businesses that routinely give out free supplies. Why is closing for lunch considered to be "dickishness". Just because the internet is open 24/7 doesnt mean everything else needs to be. That someone would complain about a store being closed at lunch time just shows a desperate attempt at reaching for straws.
2. Barring of online sales. This isnt being dickish this is just playing hardball in a hardball world. GW doesnt owe anyone adherence to a particular model of how they sell and distribute their products. They are making the stuff so they have every right to sell it as they please. As long as they are not breaking any laws I really could not be bothered to care about it. You may not like their policy and it may not seem fair, but they still have every right to set their own policy and succeed or fail on its merits.
3. Social Media withdrawal. LOL, really who gives a fig. Social media is just used as an advertising tool by companies that bother with it. Zero impact on gamers because GW took its ball and went home.
4. Finecast debacle. This is purely an issue of price related to quality. The QC issues are incompetence not dickishness and I doubt that GW planned for it to be a fiasco. From a business perspective if GW can pry a huge amount of money from its customers for a resin figure, you can hardly blame them for trying. The proper response to this is to just not buy any finecast products, I have numerous fantasy and 40k armies and have purchased ZERO finecast models.
The sad thing is that enough people have bought finecast models to send the signal to GW that their pricing and QC is good enough for customers.
5. Trade Show. GW embarassed themselves at a trade show. So what? Its not like anyone going to the show had an expectation that GW was going to suddenly reverse policy and tell them about forthcoming products. Incompetence, yes, purposeful screwing around people, not likely.
Elsewhere
Closing GW forums: Those forums were crap, good riddance, there are plenty of forums around.
White Dwarf turned into GAK: So dont buy it. The audience is obviously 12 year olds so if you pay $10 for a crappy magazine its on you. The first issue of WD I bought on the newstand was number 100 and I have a huge collection that I stopped adding to a few years ago. The fact that it is crap doesnt do anything bad to the hobby because there are more good articles on the internet than ever found their way into the WD. The White Dwarf is an anachronism, its a zombie, its long dead but hasnt realized it yet.
Tournament Support: It would be nice if GW still supported tournaments, but they dont and where there is demand a supply is usually found. There are plenty of tournaments anywhere the hobby has a good population of players.
No. It's called failing to adapt in an increasingly digital and interconnected age. It's desperately trying to hold onto a sales model that was appropriate throughout the 80's and 90's but has become obsolete.
Kingsley wrote: As for good things that GW has done in the last short period, they're pretty easy to find:
-Vast, constant improvement in sprue design, density of parts on a sprue, and overall fit. This in turn enables kits to come with far more bitz and customization options. Compare the new Pathfinders to the Fire Warriors, for instance. Or compare 3rd edition Tactical Marines to 4th edition Tactical Marines to Devastators to the Stormtalon to get a more detailed view of how things have shifted over time.
I would agree with this. The sprue thing still has the occasional throwback, but by and large the amount of gubbins that they are chucking on their makes happy happen in this converters head.
-Release of 5th and 6th edition, IMO the best editions of 40k yet.
I'm a little torn on this one. 5th edition was awesome. 6th edition is fun... but suffers from some absolutely appalling rules writing. It's a return to the days of GW thinking that since they don't see their game as being intended for competitive play, they don't need to put too much effort into writing clear rules.
-Rules put into White Dwarf again (this is something the community has been requesting for years)
Yup, great idea. Except that with the lowered production numbers of White Dwarf due to not having any actual content for so long, those issues that were actually worth buying sold out really quickly, and those rules were then unavailable to anyone else who wanted them, as opposed to previously when GW used to make back issues available for years after publication, or put the rules up for download a couple of months after the WD issue had gone out.
And, of course, there's the reported decision to stop publishing rules again, due to the complaints received from those people who couldn't get them... because cutting off their own noses to spite their faces is clearly the better option than going back to making the rules available to all...
-Accelerated release schedule updating people's armies to the new edition at a greatly increased pace
Yeah, that worked out really well for people wanting to buy the new Tau models. Or anyone who bought the Dark Angels codex expecting that a codex finished more than a year prior to release would actually have been proof-read at some point...
-Forge World putting out Horus Heresy books and units (again something that has been requested for years)
Yup, Forgeworld rock.
-Excellent video game tie-ins
Dawn of War was a while back. Warhammer Online was a bit of a fizzer, as was Bloodbowl from everything I've heard. And Space Marine was pretty, but ultimately a little dull.
-Re-release of Space Hulk
...as a limited edition...
-Availability of digital Codexes
...to half of the tablet market, because they chose to go with a proprietry format full of features that nobody needed or asked for instead of a basic ebook that would have been usable by everyone with a tablet of any kind, or a smartphone, or a laptop, or a desktop computer...
Oh, and there's the price-jump due to digital books apparently being more expensive to produce if the physical version of the product is a hardcover...
-Increased pace of FAQ/errata release resolving many important questions
Because releasing errata is much easier than just editing the book sometime during that year that you'rehanging onto it before release...
-Better-written books limiting the need for FAQ/errata in the first place (quote from Yakface on a thread collecting questions about the new Tau: "I guess this codex is pretty darn well written because it seems as though the vast majority of the questions being submitted are simply:
The rules are crystal clear, but is that REALLY what you mean by those rules?
Quality of plastic sculpts i feel went up alot of the newer models are muuuuch easier to build and a lot of customizable parts make for happy converters.
that's all i got :/
Yes but they had to- GW took away the bits service so you couldnt get the bits as needed to convert models like we use to. So its a wash there- some of us converters use to use alot more bits when we could get the exact bit or sprue instead of buying kits.
JWhex wrote: I bet if GW had much lower prices a lot of these other complaints would go away. The price vs quality issue is the only issue that effects whether or not I buy something from GW and I bet it is the same for the majority of past and present GW customers. At this time I only buy the absolute bare minnimum of GW product to keep my hobby going because I just think the price to quality ratio is over the moon in a bad way.
A number of things that people have complained about in this thread and others strike me as coming from someone that is just not being realistic. Other things I find to be rather nonconsequential.
From the decade of dickishness list
1. GW going to one man stores and not supplying free paints and closing at lunch time. So what, if they need to cut costs then reducing the number of employees is the first step companies always take. No longer giving out free supplies? LOL buy your own stuff, I dont know any other businesses that routinely give out free supplies. Why is closing for lunch considered to be "dickishness". Just because the internet is open 24/7 doesnt mean everything else needs to be. That someone would complain about a store being closed at lunch time just shows a desperate attempt at reaching for straws.
The point here is that GW have stated they want to restrict online businesses because Brick and Mortar stores offer far more, yet are removing those "far more" value adds - going in a backwards direction. The fact that they've reduced the stores to a one man model then means that when the lunch time surge hits, no one is there to manage the store and take the dollars. It's not the being closed for lunch that is diskish, its that some poor bastard misses out on sales because he's the only bugger there.
2. Barring of online sales. This isnt being dickish this is just playing hardball in a hardball world. GW doesnt owe anyone adherence to a particular model of how they sell and distribute their products. They are making the stuff so they have every right to sell it as they please. As long as they are not breaking any laws I really could not be bothered to care about it. You may not like their policy and it may not seem fair, but they still have every right to set their own policy and succeed or fail on its merits.
Online sales are a COMPLIMENT to Brick and Mortar stores, and given most of the sales are done through distributors, they are cutting their nose despite their face in this regard - and it will show. They are alienating their distributors and retailers in kind. Yes they have every right to do as they please, doesn't make it any less dickish.
3. Social Media withdrawal. LOL, really who gives a fig. Social media is just used as an advertising tool by companies that bother with it. Zero impact on gamers because GW took its ball and went home.
The fact they withdrew is very clear evidence they KNOW what they are doing is wrong and don't want to hear the complaints. There is an impact on gamers because those who have invested alot of money now lose faith in the thought of being heard - where as a decent company would at the very least respond with their justification and try to lay aside any fears that someones investment in the hobby is going to be less valued.
4. Finecast debacle. This is purely an issue of price related to quality. The QC issues are incompetence not dickishness and I doubt that GW planned for it to be a fiasco. From a business perspective if GW can pry a huge amount of money from its customers for a resin figure, you can hardly blame them for trying. The proper response to this is to just not buy any finecast products, I have numerous fantasy and 40k armies and have purchased ZERO finecast models.
The sad thing is that enough people have bought finecast models to send the signal to GW that their pricing and QC is good enough for customers.
There are many who believe the introduction of Finecast was another attempt at jacking up prices. When they went from lead/pewter to white metal - ironically because of the toxins - and incurred a 25% increase... now they are going back to a medium that is riddled with toxins... making money is one thing, doing this after stating the last material change was to "protect people" sends a clear message that protecting anyone was just marketing spin. Again, dickish.
5. Trade Show. GW embarassed themselves at a trade show. So what? Its not like anyone going to the show had an expectation that GW was going to suddenly reverse policy and tell them about forthcoming products. Incompetence, yes, purposeful screwing around people, not likely.
It was the observed attitude that counts towards dickishness. This is now a theme at distributor/retailer events from what i'm reading.
Elsewhere
Closing GW forums: Those forums were crap, good riddance, there are plenty of forums around.
White Dwarf turned into GAK: So dont buy it. The audience is obviously 12 year olds so if you pay $10 for a crappy magazine its on you. The first issue of WD I bought on the newstand was number 100 and I have a huge collection that I stopped adding to a few years ago. The fact that it is crap doesnt do anything bad to the hobby because there are more good articles on the internet than ever found their way into the WD. The White Dwarf is an anachronism, its a zombie, its long dead but hasnt realized it yet.
Are you completely missing the point here? The point is to illustrate that their business practices are less than one would expect from what was once a reputable company. The point is that people are GOING to the internet because the products/business decisions are rubbish (in saying that the models are nice, but WD really needs to check itself). People who had subscriptions were finding what they had paid money for was turning into nothing more than a $12 catalog. Likewise, a GW forum was seen as a DIRECT link to GW for reputable information and a means to have the community voice heard - by shutting it down they have effectively said "Not interested in your opinion" aka we don't give a gak about "the hobby", just your cash... not a good ethos to portray to your customers. If you run a business, one of the factors that make it successful is the fact the staff are passionate about the product and they want people to want it... GW are just portraying themselves as a "meh, gimme your cash", company that has little to no interest in what the community actually wants - not listening to the market by putting your head in the sand is just plain dickish behaviour, especially the way GW have done it.
Tournament Support: It would be nice if GW still supported tournaments, but they dont and where there is demand a supply is usually found. There are plenty of tournaments anywhere the hobby has a good population of players.
I like how you talk yet say nothing. Thought of a career in politics?
I'm kind of curious as to what FFG would do if they were ever allowed to write the rules system and Codex/Army books. If their RPG stuff is anything to go by I reckon they'd do very well.
Morachi wrote: I'm kind of curious as to what FFG would do if they were ever allowed to write the rules system and Codex/Army books. If their RPG stuff is anything to go by I reckon they'd do very well.
I trust FFG's ability to balance a competitive game substantially more than I trust GW's ability to do so. However, I'm much less confident in FFG's ability to design cool model lines or do any of the other elements of the hobby.
Morachi wrote: I'm kind of curious as to what FFG would do if they were ever allowed to write the rules system and Codex/Army books. If their RPG stuff is anything to go by I reckon they'd do very well.
I trust FFG's ability to balance a competitive game substantially more than I trust GW's ability to do so. However, I'm much less confident in FFG's ability to design cool model lines or do any of the other elements of the hobby.
Those are two separate areas of competence. GW could keep on making the models and outsource the rules to FFG. The fluff could be outsourced to professional novelists.
Morachi wrote: I'm kind of curious as to what FFG would do if they were ever allowed to write the rules system and Codex/Army books. If their RPG stuff is anything to go by I reckon they'd do very well.
I trust FFG's ability to balance a competitive game substantially more than I trust GW's ability to do so. However, I'm much less confident in FFG's ability to design cool model lines or do any of the other elements of the hobby.
Those are two separate areas of competence. GW could keep on making the models and outsource the rules to FFG. The fluff could be outsourced to professional novelists.
I don't actually think the rules are that bad, at least within the context of a core concept that is arguably archaic and unsophisticated. After all, GW have had over 30 years to work on improving the system. They have shown no desire to make a paradigm shift, but they have tweaked and adjusted the system quite an amount.
Kilkrazy wrote: I don't actually think the rules are that bad, at least within the context of a core concept that is arguably archaic and unsophisticated. After all, GW have had over 30 years to work on improving the system. They have shown no desire to make a paradigm shift, but they have tweaked and adjusted the system quite an amount.
I don't think GW's rules are that bad either-- 6e strikes me as the most balanced and tactically interesting edition yet-- but I do think there's room for improvement.
It's 1v30 right now in this thread - props to him for standing up for the middle ground and what he believes in - but hedoesn't make any strong arguments. I'm seeing a ton of ducking for cover and misdirection.
5. Saying that KoW rules sucked and internet reviews agree (or at least call it "meh"), while a simple google search will reveal that it is full of good and positive feedback.
That's one of the many points Kinglsy dodges
- I agreed with basically everything in this thread - jumped over to KoW and Hordes right now
-Vast, constant improvement in sprue design, density of parts on a sprue, and overall fit. This in turn enables kits to come with far more bitz and customization options. Compare the new Pathfinders to the Fire Warriors, for instance. Or compare 3rd edition Tactical Marines to 4th edition Tactical Marines to Devastators to the Stormtalon to get a more detailed view of how things have shifted over time.
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No arguments here. GW do pretty good plastic kits. When it comes to converting my Infinity and Privateer models, i tend to reach for GW sprues.
-Release of 5th and 6th edition, IMO the best editions of 40k yet.
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as you say, your opinion. 5th made me (and many others) drop 40k, and i've not seen anything in sixth that would draw me back in. I view both editions as a step sideways, instead of a step forward, as both continue GWs basic policy of "changing" the game, rather than "improving" it. Add to this a further cynical approach of each edition pushing a certain style of play opposed to the previous edition.
As a further counter to this point, put up a thread on any 40k forum asking what folks' favourite edition was and there is no consensus. Some like RT, some like 2nd, others third, fourth, fifth or sixth. THere is no consensus on the "best edition". Now, go and look at other games. Privateer Press did a worldwide fieldtest for their warmachine, and hordes mk2 rules. players got to feed their input into the process. And overall, mk2 is a vastly superior beast in every way, shape and form to mk1. this is "improvement". What GW does, (rightly or wrongly, and no opinion here is right or wrong) is less "improvement" and more "change".
-Rules put into White Dwarf again (this is something the community has been requesting for years)
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Debateable. I remember the game back in third, when every faction, and sub faction had their own white dwarf, and chapter approved minidex. White scars instantly come to mind, and there were plenty others. In my opinion, all it added to the game was clutter. you ended up bringing your own weight in FAQs and white dwarfs to tourneys to know what every subfaction could do. No, everything getting their own unique individual rules, whilst nice in theory was simply indicative of a lack of discipline on the part of the design studio (an opinion shared by Pete Haines actually) simply bogged down the game. Far better the approach with eldar where the one codex could be tweaked to represent all the craftworlds, rather than requiring an individual set of rules for each.
So GW designed Dawn of War, and Space Marine? All GW did was licence a product with their name. the other companies did the hard work on making games. No, im afraid GW get no credit here. THQ do. And then there are other licensed products. How about ultramarine? A bit of fun, for sure, but hardly indicative of somethingbrilliant.
-Increased pace of FAQ/errata release resolving many important questions
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from everything i've heard though, there still remain a lot of ambiguities. WHen they get to the level of Privateer Press FAQs, they're doing good. but im afriad PP are the leaders in this race.
-Better-written books limiting the need for FAQ/errata in the first place (quote from Yakface on a thread collecting questions about the new Tau: "I guess this codex is pretty darn well written because it seems as though the vast majority of the questions being submitted are simply:
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i disagree here with the comment about them being better written books. Companies like Privateer Press? Leagues ahead.
I could go on and on here, that's just off the top of my head. Now is that an accurate description of GW's track record over the last short while? No, it obviously isn't-- it's very one-sided! But no more one-sided than the "decade of dickishness" being claimed by others. You have to take the good with the bad and form a balanced perspective, not just stockpile cheers or jeers.
Here's the thing though. the "good" things as you see them can be seen quite differently by other folks. I'll agree with you on some points, but those things that are positive are hardly unique to GW. When compared to the level of support companies like PP give out (tournament support, league play etc) GW fall short. Most of the good things you mention, in my book really arent, and then there are the poorly thought out decsions that do nothing but disenfranchise players, potential players and even most recently, retailers and distributors. Add to that the perceived contemptuous attitude given to customers.
The funny thing is, i get the GW attitude. I've actually spoken to Jervis, and i know personally some of the folks whose names appear in the codices and rulebooks (usually playtesters, and special thanks). GW want to control their product. GW push an idea of what they want to be and how they want to sell "their" image of what gaming is. THey even have an official policy towards advertising where the company line is to officially refuse to do it- they prefer word of mouth, to the extent that they will politely decline any and all interviews and potential media outlets. its simply not how they want to sell their image of what gaming is. In a lot of ways, theirs is a throwback to the 80s and the 90s. And in a way, i can respect that. I also understand their nature as a corporate entity. I like to think they do things because they have to-because of their bature as a big company with a few thousand employees - they dont have the luxury of being "cool" to the kids. I like to think its because of tedious legal reasons, and through corporate respponsibilities instead of a sadistic desire to actively screw you and i. I dont know how wrong or right i am in that personal view, but i like to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Sadly though, despite my neutral POV, i've been burned by GW. and I've grown up in the meantime. THe potential "good" stuff you mention Kinglsy, well not enough to make me (and many others) want to be a part of their culture.Doing a few (debateable) good things not unique to GW. Other companies do good things for thier customers, and then they do more awesome things on top of that. Privateer Press have simply offered, and given me so much more as a company. Compared to GW, they're leagues ahead, and thats where my money, time and interest is going.
I fully know what this corporation is capable to do and its potential. These situations are not unusual slip ups. These are planned.
Situations like this shows the behavior of middle management that are getting their orders from high above. These are signs of a company that are cutting back on everything that they consider unnecessary. this includes how they are dealing with their customer base and retailers.
Deadnight wrote: Here's the thing though. the "good" things as you see them can be seen quite differently by other folks. I'll agree with you on some points, but those things that are positive are hardly unique to GW. When compared to the level of support companies like PP give out (tournament support, league play etc) GW fall short. Most of the good things you mention, in my book really arent, and then there are the poorly thought out decsions that do nothing but disenfranchise players, potential players and even most recently, retailers and distributors. Add to that the perceived contemptuous attitude given to customers.
I consider a large portion of that list of bad things debatable as well. But I'm not interested in arguing over every point there-- merely in showing that, depending on how you look at things, you can have a very different perspective. My stance, again, is that you have to consider the overall situation and take the good with the bad.
I fully know what this corporation is capable to do and its potential. These situations are not unusual slip ups. These are planned.
Situations like this shows the behavior of middle management that are getting their orders from high above. These are signs of a company that are cutting back on everything that they consider unnecessary. this includes how they are dealing with their customer base and retailers.
While the second link sounds like someone with an agenda, the House of Paincakes was a good example of comparing GW to the other companies. Biggest point I think that needs to be made here is how WotC is shown and presents themselves vs GW. WotC is huge. GW wishes it was WotC. But WotC still strives to push new games, keep interest going in old games, and keep the store owners happy. Though I wouldn't get too thrilled about a WotC takeover of GW. I remember Avalon Hill's take over by WotC being particularly loathed. The main design studio was let go despite being well liked. Number of their games also got pulled from the shelves. Not sure how the community would react if WHFB was canned because it's sales weren't deemed "strong enough" by a new management.
You can have an agenda and still be factually accurate. The Warstore having banners, displays, retail packaged products...versus GW having plain brown wrapping, and little to designate that they were GW other than their shirts. While the words can show an agenda, it does change the poor showing of GW at the biggest game convention of the year.
I'm thinking either Hasbro (To merge with WotC) or Mattel(To compete with WotC).
The bright side with a Hasbro buyout is that WH40k and Warhammer Fantasy both have enough sales to be considered "core brands" and be kept in production. The really weird thing would be the likelihood of Hasbro merging them with WotC and moving the studio to Seattle.
Sean_OBrien wrote: You can have an agenda and still be factually accurate. The Warstore having banners, displays, retail packaged products...versus GW having plain brown wrapping, and little to designate that they were GW other than their shirts. While the words can show an agenda, it does change the poor showing of GW at the biggest game convention of the year.
Yes, but they can be less blatant about it. And besides, that is not new news, it's always been known GW has an afterthought presence at Gencon. The House of Paincakes does a good comparison of representation by mid to upper management/sales by the various companies.
Sean_OBrien wrote: You can have an agenda and still be factually accurate. The Warstore having banners, displays, retail packaged products...versus GW having plain brown wrapping, and little to designate that they were GW other than their shirts. While the words can show an agenda, it does change the poor showing of GW at the biggest game convention of the year.
Yes, but they can be less blatant about it. And besides, that is not new news, it's always been known GW has an afterthought presence at Gencon. The House of Paincakes does a good comparison of representation by mid to upper management/sales by the various companies.
This is a pattern. You do not show up to one of the largest events that represents your product unprepared.
To act like a garage company trying to break into the industry instead of a multimillion dollar corporation using some of their profits at least for Marketing/Public Relations is unacceptable.
They made a decision on showing up. They should act like it meant something.
I'm thinking either Hasbro (To merge with WotC) or Mattel(To compete with WotC).
The bright side with a Hasbro buyout is that WH40k and Warhammer Fantasy both have enough sales to be considered "core brands" and be kept in production. The really weird thing would be the likelihood of Hasbro merging them with WotC and moving the studio to Seattle.
If they did, then my dream of DungeonHammer the Gathering may finally be realized.
Even garage companies do interviews. Look up some of the footage from GenCon of several vloggers who interview various game designers and small companies.
GW knows that interviews are free right? You know, free, like doesn't cost a thing? Heck when the BBC comes calling, why not let them ask a few question and give you free exposure?
Why so shy?. Just because "we don't do interviews" has been the party line, why not take a step forward and change that?
This is a pattern. You do not show up to one of the largest events that represents your product unprepared.
To act like a garage company trying to break into the industry instead of a multimillion dollar corporation using some of their profits at least for Marketing/Public Relations is unacceptable.
They made a decision on showing up. They should act like it meant something.
Are you referring to GenCon or ACD? GenCon is always more about the entire gaming industry than just tabletop miniatures. Because you know who else doesn't go to GenCon? Reaper Miniatures. Are they arrogant and unprepared because they don't go GenCon? No, because everyone knows them at GenCon. They focus on shows where people do not know about them.
Honestly I'm surprised that GW was even at Gencon. GW has always had a minimal convention presence. They have always claimed everyone knows them, no need to go to these shows. Plus why show up when the other distributors there are selling your product below MRSP. Though one though, GenCon, if like SDCC has limited table space and a waiting list. I know several vendors who send minimal presence to SDCC just to maintain a table space. Because once you lose it, it's gone. They may be simply maintaining a spot at this point. A vendor friend that just tired to get into SDCC said it was a three year waiting list.
ACD on the other hand is addressing the actual people who stock your product . An angry fanboy might mean a few hundred dollars in lost sales. An angry store owner is tens if not hundreds of thousands in lost sales. I agree there on the need to be prepared and have answers. Showing up there with stock answers only pours flames on the fire.
Honestly I'm surprised that GW was even at Gencon. GW has always had a minimal convention presence. They have always claimed everyone knows them, no need to go to these shows.
If that's true, then it's no surprise they appear to be operating in the 19th century.
I mean, seriously, do you hear presidents and prime ministers come election time saying "well, everyone's heard of me, no need to bother?"
No, because public relations is an ongoing cycle which has an undefinable, intangible but important role in maintaining your relationship with your consumer base.
Sorry Auld, but I read your post as if it were a list of events, the last event being "The Auld Grump". Like "First they were separate, then they merged into one company, then came 1991 and then the management buying... and then... The Auld Grump!"
The question you have to ask yourself is-- is GW different? Or is the community's response to GW different?
The better question you should be asking is is that is the response due to GW's actions and lack or responses, and compare and contrast them to other companies and their responses and why they get different responses.
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Kingsley wrote: The so-called "decade of dickishness" is just a dumb phrase. First off, it seems like the real complaints started in 2009 and they just added the online sales thing in 2003 to make it seem like this had been going on forever. Second, practically any organization will look bad if you focus entirely on things that you don't like. You could just as well make a similar list with everything GW has done well across whatever period.
Not really, only to you. For other folks, taking away my ability to shop in my fluffy slippers for their product is a real complaint. I can get any book, movie or model OTHER then GW from the confort of my home. But GW took that away.
GW spent over a decade harping on the value of converting your models, and showed a wide variety of pictures.......then took away the bit service I enjoyed since the early 90's. Yet another problem.
I can go on if you like.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kingsley wrote: .
For Troops, Guard, Sisters, and Tyranids went up. Dæmons, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Grey Knights, and in practice Orks went down. Everyone else stayed more or less the same or went up or down depending on options..
No on orks. They use to come in larger boxes then 10. DE I'd argue no as well. Daemons, necrons and GK only due to the move to plastic, not because the old model boxes went down.
-Accelerated release schedule updating people's armies to the new edition at a greatly increased pace
Yes but at the price of rules being slightl;y more shoddy and the fact you do not know whats coming out till the week of the release.
This is a pattern. You do not show up to one of the largest events that represents your product unprepared.
To act like a garage company trying to break into the industry instead of a multimillion dollar corporation using some of their profits at least for Marketing/Public Relations is unacceptable.
They made a decision on showing up. They should act like it meant something.
Are you referring to GenCon or ACD? GenCon is always more about the entire gaming industry than just tabletop miniatures. Because you know who else doesn't go to GenCon? Reaper Miniatures. Are they arrogant and unprepared because they don't go GenCon? No, because everyone knows them at GenCon. They focus on shows where people do not know about them.
Reaper goes to Gencon, they didn't go last year because of a scheduling issues, but they usually have a pretty big space.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Sorry Auld, but I read your post as if it were a list of events, the last event being "The Auld Grump". Like "First they were separate, then they merged into one company, then came 1991 and then the management buying... and then... The Auld Grump!"
Pretty sure they also had a presence at GenCon even though they were at Pax this past year...IIRC they had paint and take being run as well as a banner in the convention hall.
Though comparing GW to Reaper is sort of an odd way to go. Reaper communicates quite freely with their customers and is not afraid of addressing criticism head on.
Sean_OBrien wrote: Pretty sure they also had a presence at GenCon even though they were at Pax this past year...IIRC they had paint and take being run as well as a banner in the convention hall.
Though comparing GW to Reaper is sort of an odd way to go. Reaper communicates quite freely with their customers and is not afraid of addressing criticism head on.
If anything, the two companies are exact opposites of each other. Every retailer I have talked with say Reaper is a pleasure to work with as well.
Well if they were there, then they didn't have a booth advertised at GenCon 2012 and discussions on the Reaper forum is they won't be at GenCon 2013. So by the logic being tossed out here about ignoring conventions and having shoddy boths, they are an arrogant idiotic company that operates in the 19th century. They don't think the largest game convention in the US is worth their time and is below them? We all know that is not the case, but my point is that people are painting with large brushes and ignore other companies that do the same thing or make up excuses for them. As I said, people have agendas to portray companies in the worst light.
That is why I criticized the first reference Adam posted. Came off as having a clear agenda and makes it easy to dismiss. We a relying on their observations to make opinions and if they come off as already biased, if you have to question those observations.
Having a presence does not mean having a booth. Reaper, was IIRC, a sponsor - so they had there banner hanging...which is as good as a bill board. More importantly though, they also sponsor one of the larger "paint and takes" with miniatures and paints - which of course gets their products into the hands of a variety of people. They didn't have a vendor booth.
This year, they haven't said mum about GenCon or Pax West. They are planning on hitting origins - but only if they manage to actually get everything shipped for their KS in time.
The big take away though as far as I was concerned was this:
They made a decision on showing up. They should act like it meant something.
GW chose to show up and did a poor showing. Reaper stayed home (well - went to a different convention) and still was probably better served by donating a couple of cases of stock to the paint and take and flying their banner in the hall. They left the selling to different vendors who show up and carry their stock (no doubt The Warstore had more than a few Reaper products on hand to sell to anyone who wanted to buy them).
Sean_OBrien wrote: Having a presence does not mean having a booth. Reaper, was IIRC, a sponsor - so they had there banner hanging...which is as good as a bill board. More importantly though, they also sponsor one of the larger "paint and takes" with miniatures and paints - which of course gets their products into the hands of a variety of people. They didn't have a vendor booth.
This year, they haven't said mum about GenCon or Pax West. They are planning on hitting origins - but only if they manage to actually get everything shipped for their KS in time.
The big take away though as far as I was concerned was this:
They made a decision on showing up. They should act like it meant something.
GW chose to show up and did a poor showing. Reaper stayed home (well - went to a different convention) and still was probably better served by donating a couple of cases of stock to the paint and take and flying their banner in the hall. They left the selling to different vendors who show up and carry their stock (no doubt The Warstore had more than a few Reaper products on hand to sell to anyone who wanted to buy them).
Hmmm... don't see Reaper among the "Thanks to our 2012 Sponsors" on the Gencon webpage. If they were, Gencon isn't advertising it. Plus, Reaper dumped Gencon for a video game show.
Neither of those divisions seem to have access to GW's funds and first time back at a major show, going full out and not performing means they will not come back again for several years till management is convinced it might be worth it again. Going in light and doing decently then justifies returning next year with more effort/resources. It was a toe back in the water. To argue they need to dive back in is naive.
So again, an agenda and a bias in presentation leaving out certain details so a company looks worse.
I can confirm that the only thing for sale at the GenCon booth were Black Library books (pretty much all of the non-limited edition books) including the Event-Only compilation book Games Day Anthology 2011/12, Forge World Event only models (40k and fantasy model), and a smattering of FW kits. Nearly all of the upgrades that were available at the time (rhino doors, land raider doors, shoulder pads) and some other kits. No GW kits that I recall.
Sean_OBrien wrote: Having a presence does not mean having a booth. Reaper, was IIRC, a sponsor - so they had there banner hanging...which is as good as a bill board. More importantly though, they also sponsor one of the larger "paint and takes" with miniatures and paints - which of course gets their products into the hands of a variety of people. They didn't have a vendor booth.
This year, they haven't said mum about GenCon or Pax West. They are planning on hitting origins - but only if they manage to actually get everything shipped for their KS in time.
The big take away though as far as I was concerned was this:
They made a decision on showing up. They should act like it meant something.
GW chose to show up and did a poor showing. Reaper stayed home (well - went to a different convention) and still was probably better served by donating a couple of cases of stock to the paint and take and flying their banner in the hall. They left the selling to different vendors who show up and carry their stock (no doubt The Warstore had more than a few Reaper products on hand to sell to anyone who wanted to buy them).
Hmmm... don't see Reaper among the "Thanks to our 2012 Sponsors" on the Gencon webpage. If they were, Gencon isn't advertising it. Plus, Reaper dumped Gencon for a video game show.
Neither of those divisions seem to have access to GW's funds and first time back at a major show, going full out and not performing means they will not come back again for several years till management is convinced it might be worth it again. Going in light and doing decently then justifies returning next year with more effort/resources. It was a toe back in the water. To argue they need to dive back in is naive.
So again, an agenda and a bias in presentation leaving out certain details so a company looks worse.
The corporation does not need any help on making itself look worse. Does fine by itself with little or no support from its white knights. A pattern has been set a long time ago. It's just more visible now. There will be those that will accept the fact that Games Workshop is not spending resources on Marketing/Public relations. And there will be those that won't.
That is fine by me as long as the conversation is civil then we have to agree to disagree.
So Reaper does the right thing by phoning it in at Gencon, GW fethed up by being there with their non standard specialist lines?
Im guessing probably all the independent retailers were carrying GWs standard rangesstuff (and probably a big proportion of the second hand section) at discount. I would seem like a fools errand to ship a lorry load of stock that everyone else will have at 20%+ at a convention where the audience will be made up of clued up customers - why bother preaching to the converted?
Now complaining about this sounds like a double standard to me.
GW were rightly lauded last year by starting to attend shows and conventions, now it is seen as another terrible GW incompetence?
Sheesh, some of you fellers read too much into everything.
On the gaming floor, those were individuals, clubs or stores...no affiliation with GW. GWs only presence was with the vendor booth. Everything else was individual actions by hobbyists.
Reaper sponsored the speed painting charity, Gen Con painting competition, paint and takes and painting classes (collectively known as MHE).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Regarding other vendors carrying stock, manufacturers have the exclusive right to sell at Gen Con. Most independents probably skipped on brining GW stock to the con as a result. The War Store had brought stock, but IIRC, they didnt actually know if they would be able to sell it until a week before hand.
There is a significant difference between the two, even before you consider the scale differences between the two companies.
notprop wrote: So Reaper does the right thing by phoning it in at Gencon, GW fethed up by being there with their non standard specialist lines?
Im guessing probably all the independent retailers were carrying GWs standard rangesstuff (and probably a big proportion of the second hand section) at discount. I would seem like a fools errand to ship a lorry load of stock that everyone else will have at 20%+ at a convention where the audience will be made up of clued up customers - why bother preaching to the converted?
Now complaining about this sounds like a double standard to me.
GW were rightly lauded last year by starting to attend shows and conventions, now it is seen as another terrible GW incompetence?
Sheesh, some of you fellers read too much into everything.
GW shouldn't be at conventions to sell stuff, they have stockists to do that for them and they won't be able to compete with prices. Unless GW decided to offer special convention discounts, but we all know that won't happen.
But GW could be there with demo games, actual advertising and branding. They could try to get new folks started in the game. I am sure that the stockists there would be happy if new people showed up to buy GW stuff.
They could also get current players excited by actually releasing news. What better place than a convention to release WIP of upcoming releases and to drum up excitement with the fanbase.
Sean_OBrien wrote: On the gaming floor, those were individuals, clubs or stores...no affiliation with GW. GWs only presence was with the vendor booth. Everything else was individual actions by hobbyists.
Reaper sponsored the speed painting charity, Gen Con painting competition, paint and takes and painting classes (collectively known as MHE).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Regarding other vendors carrying stock, manufacturers have the exclusive right to sell at Gen Con. Most independents probably skipped on brining GW stock to the con as a result. The War Store had brought stock, but IIRC, they didnt actually know if they would be able to sell it until a week before hand.
There is a significant difference between the two, even before you consider the scale differences between the two companies.
So a couple cases of paint is all it takes to make Reaper abandoning the grandfather of all game cons to be forgiven? Given GenCon isn't listing them as a sponsor, I don't think GenCon has.
The video in the link I posted showed a couple stores with GW on display for sale.
Part of the matter is that when Reaper does do a con they do it well. They are friendly and approachable, and actually *GASP!* answer questions!
GW, with a much larger company, showed up and put on a lackluster display. When asked for information, answer gave they none.
There is showing up a con and there is making a showing at a con.
Folks had hopes that since GW is returning to cons that they might do something memorable... instead....
If you frequent the Reaper forums then you will know that Reaper did catch some flak over not showing for Gen Con - instead of turning off their forums and leaving the phone off of the hook they addressed the reasons on the forums, and replied to questions asked in that regard.
And that, at the core, is the biggest difference - Reaper is willing to hold a dialog. GW circles the wagons and goes silent, hoping that the Injuns will go away.
Reaper also has a great deal less in the way of negative baggage to carry around - most of the folks dealing with Reaper are happy with their responses. When Reaper had a price hike a few years ago they posted the reasons for it - complete with a chart of tin prices.... (If you did not know that Reaper is run by an accountant then all it would take is looking at that post to inform you of that fact....)
***
WotC started down the same road that GW has been taking* - and business for 4e D&D continued to decline.
Unlike GW, WotC looked at that situation and took steps to remedy the situation.
Folks report that WotC - a bigger company than GW - has been open at professional conventions, and more than willing to talk to the owners of local game stores.
This did not prevent WotC from taking a potshot at a webcomic for having a plush rust monster toy....
But unlike GW they actually settled the matter - the rust monster plush is now available - and it didn't take two years and a reprimand from a judge to get there.
I may be annoyed at the fact that they did take a potshot, but they were open to negotiation.
GW... not so much.
The Auld Grump
*Telling folks that 4e wasn't in the works, right up until they announced the release date.... Dropping PDFs. Going silent on forums that were critical of WotC's decisions. Not listening to playtesters. Ridiculing critics.... They deserved to take one on the chin, regardless of the rules themselves.
Kingsley wrote: The so-called "decade of dickishness" is just a dumb phrase. First off, it seems like the real complaints started in 2009 and they just added the online sales thing in 2003 to make it seem like this had been going on forever. Second, practically any organization will look bad if you focus entirely on things that you don't like. You could just as well make a similar list with everything GW has done well across whatever period.
Not really, only to you. For other folks, taking away my ability to shop in my fluffy slippers for their product is a real complaint. I can get any book, movie or model OTHER then GW from the confort of my home. But GW took that away.
GW spent over a decade harping on the value of converting your models, and showed a wide variety of pictures.......then took away the bit service I enjoyed since the early 90's. Yet another problem.
I can go on if you like.
Let me...
Finecast crap...
Slow Codex updates.. to push people to buy new armies
Poorly done Power creep... to force people into getting a new army to stay competative...
No offical Tournament suport
Making White Dwarf into an advert magazine with little substance..
Trying to stop global internet sales of their products, by forcing rules and regulations on independet retailers..
Stopping open gaming in their stores (there are no veterans allowed at my local GW for example)..
Constant price hikes...
No offical Forums..
Removing lots of articles from their main site...
Instructing their store employes to aggressively target customers (most often Childrean, a despicable practice) Trying and push the latest product on them... (Many times when i whent into one of their stores, to buy something I got pestered if I had seen this or that and, arnt you going to buy this or that.. Until I told them the Shut the F up and leave me alone).
Abandoning many games.. Like Warhammer fantasy Roleplay, Mordheim and Blood Bowl...
We can go on if you like Kingsley... Because the list of wrongdoings is far from complete....
Kingsley wrote: The so-called "decade of dickishness" is just a dumb phrase. First off, it seems like the real complaints started in 2009 and they just added the online sales thing in 2003 to make it seem like this had been going on forever. Second, practically any organization will look bad if you focus entirely on things that you don't like. You could just as well make a similar list with everything GW has done well across whatever period.
Not really, only to you. For other folks, taking away my ability to shop in my fluffy slippers for their product is a real complaint. I can get any book, movie or model OTHER then GW from the confort of my home. But GW took that away.
GW spent over a decade harping on the value of converting your models, and showed a wide variety of pictures.......then took away the bit service I enjoyed since the early 90's. Yet another problem.
I can go on if you like.
Let me...
Finecast crap...
Slow Codex updates.. to push people to buy new armies
Poorly done Power creep... to force people into getting a new army to stay competative...
No offical Tournament suport
Making White Dwarf into an advert magazine with little substance..
Trying to stop global internet sales of their products, by forcing rules and regulations on independet retailers..
Stopping open gaming in their stores (there are no veterans allowed at my local GW for example)..
Constant price hikes...
No offical Forums..
Removing lots of articles from their main site...
Instructing their store employes to aggressively target customers (most often Childrean, a despicable practice) Trying and push the latest product on them... (Many times when i whent into one of their stores, to buy something I got pestered if I had seen this or that and, arnt you going to buy this or that.. Until I told them the Shut the F up and leave me alone).
Abandoning many games.. Like Warhammer fantasy Roleplay, Mordheim and Blood Bowl...
We can go on if you like Kingsley... Because the list of wrongdoings is far from complete....
Just for that, I have to give you an Exalt my friend!
I have to say, GW has been getting worse, and still has the attitude that they think they are the only ones making this type of product (still can be argued that they are still the largest to a point, but that is slowly slipping away from how they A) Treat customers and/or potential customers like they are inferiors to them, or freeloaders if GW stuff is bought anywhere except their website.
B) Trying to police critisms about their product and how they act (The forums as you said and taking down their facebook page during the "Space Marine" debacle) )
Now I am not one for complaining about a business and that too much, I just want to play a game and hobby for heaven's sake, but if a business is going to treat me like that..... well I would just buy their damn product somewhere else from the second hand market or find substitutes for it.
Kingsley wrote: The so-called "decade of dickishness" is just a dumb phrase. First off, it seems like the real complaints started in 2009 and they just added the online sales thing in 2003 to make it seem like this had been going on forever. Second, practically any organization will look bad if you focus entirely on things that you don't like. You could just as well make a similar list with everything GW has done well across whatever period.
Not really, only to you. For other folks, taking away my ability to shop in my fluffy slippers for their product is a real complaint. I can get any book, movie or model OTHER then GW from the confort of my home. But GW took that away.
GW spent over a decade harping on the value of converting your models, and showed a wide variety of pictures.......then took away the bit service I enjoyed since the early 90's. Yet another problem.
I can go on if you like.
Let me...
Finecast crap...
Slow Codex updates.. to push people to buy new armies
Poorly done Power creep... to force people into getting a new army to stay competative...
No offical Tournament suport
Making White Dwarf into an advert magazine with little substance..
Trying to stop global internet sales of their products, by forcing rules and regulations on independet retailers..
Stopping open gaming in their stores (there are no veterans allowed at my local GW for example)..
Constant price hikes...
No offical Forums..
Removing lots of articles from their main site...
Instructing their store employes to aggressively target customers (most often Childrean, a despicable practice) Trying and push the latest product on them... (Many times when i whent into one of their stores, to buy something I got pestered if I had seen this or that and, arnt you going to buy this or that.. Until I told them the Shut the F up and leave me alone).
Abandoning many games.. Like Warhammer fantasy Roleplay, Mordheim and Blood Bowl...
We can go on if you like Kingsley... Because the list of wrongdoings is far from complete....
Just for that, I have to give you an Exalt my friend!
I have to say, GW has been getting worse, and still has the attitude that they think they are the only ones making this type of product (still can be argued that they are still the largest to a point, but that is slowly slipping away from how they A) Treat customers and/or potential customers like they are inferiors to them, or freeloaders if GW stuff is bought anywhere except their website.
B) Trying to police critisms about their product and how they act (The forums as you said and taking down their facebook page during the "Space Marine" debacle) )
Now I am not one for complaining about a business and that too much, I just want to play a game and hobby for heaven's sake, but if a business is going to treat me like that..... well I would just buy their damn product somewhere else from the second hand market or find substitutes for it.
Except for the complaints about high prices and the horrible product of finecast, the rest of the complaints listed in the quotes above barely amount to a hill of beans. Some of them dont even make any sense.
Nucflash wrote: Slow Codex updates.. to push people to buy new armies
This does not make any sense. You would want to release codexes faster not slower to push people to buy models.
Nucflash wrote: Poorly done Power creep... to force people into getting a new army to stay competative
Unless you are really dedictaed to tournaments this is just a nonissue as well. Besides codexes are rotated only after several years and people would raise hell if a codex came out that did not have some new and interesting models. Releasing new models that people want to buy is how they stay in business. Sure they could do a better job at writing rules but as a general criticism I just have to roll my eyes at it. In any event you dont have to buy an entire new army when your codex is renewed that is just exageration.
If you are highly competitive in any arena you are going to have to spend more money on your hobby or sport. That is not the fault of the manufacturer, it is the result that their will always be people that are willing to spend a lot of money for even a small advantage. If you cant deal with itthe heat, GTFO of the kitchen
Another nonissue and not likely to be strictly true. There are plenty of tournaments around. I really dont care who runs them and if GW isnt running them, then you can use proxies and non GW figures.
NEWS ALERT: YOUR FLGS PROBABLY DOES GET MODELS FROM GW FOR FREE THAT COULD BE USED AS TOURNAMENT SUPPORT.
I know for a fact that one of my local FLGS, which is really small gets models for free from GW as "product support" because he told me. He does not use them for tournament support he auctions them off to raise money for a charity. Now if this little one man hole in the wall shop is getting product support from GW, you can bet your own FLGS is also.
Nucflash wrote: Making White Dwarf into an advert magazine with little substance
So what? GW makes a product you dont like, dont buy it. Its not like they are fooling you into buying something that is different than advertised. Month after month it is aimed at rank one beginners. They are not obligated to make a magazine to fit any particular demographic. Who cares, the WWW has made the white dwarf obsolete, another nonissue that people like to put on their pile of GW angst.
Another nonissue, those forums were crap, heavily moderated and not worth bothering with. There are dozens of forums that support GW games, why should they waste time and money with a forum? The fact that GW does not have any official forum has zero negative impact on the games.
Nucflash wrote: Removing lots of articles from their main site
This is hardly worth caring about because of the proliferation of articles on the internet. Also, there are plenty of artists that are selling how to paint and other video guides on the internet, dozens of them have been advertised in recent years. So how is it that GW should be singled out for criticism but other people making the same kind oof products get a free pass? Anyway a lot of their painting articles that were removed used GW paints that have been renamed and reformulated. Seriously, just get over the deletion of a handful of articles that are duplicated elsewhere on the web.
Nucflash wrote: Trying to stop global internet sales of their products, by forcing rules and regulations on independet retailers
While I personally would not conduct business the way GW does, it is still their product and they have every right to distribute that product in the way they believe will make them the most money. I dont see a lot of threads bashing companies for doing kickstarters that cut out the FLGS and it seems hypocritical to me that if GW sneezes people come out of the wood work and cry that GW is spreading a pandemic flu that is going to kill the hobby.
Well I certainly would not take this approach, but GW is paying the rent and taxes on the store so they are entitled to manage their business the way they think will make them the most money. Unless you want to take some kind of highly intrusive stance on how people run a private business, whining constantly about how they should do it "your way" instead of "their way" does not have any real world validity. Because you do not have access to their numbers and other financial information, you are pretty much just back seat driving when you try and judge how someone else should best manage their business affairs.
Nucflash wrote: Instructing their store employes to aggressively target customers
LMAO at this. Maybe you are not old enough to have visited a car dealership. Aggressive sales people is just a fact for a lot of businesses, you need to develop a little thicker skin.
Nucflash wrote: Until I told them the Shut the F up and leave me alone
That was exceptionally rude, any sensible manager would have banished you from the premises immediately.
Nucflash wrote: Abandoning many games.. Like Warhammer fantasy Roleplay, Mordheim and Blood Bowl.
You are obviously clueless about what is and what is not supported. Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay has been licensed to Fantasy Flight Games and has a very good product line. Bloodbowl can be purchased from the GW website as can Mordheim and many warbands. This hardly counts as them being "abandoned". In fact you can even get the Mordheim rules for free from GW as a pdf even though they still sell the rulebook. Next time try a little harder and do some research.
Tanakosyke22 wrote: Trying to police critisms about their product and how they act (The forums as you said and taking down their facebook page during the "Space Marine" debacle) )
Any business is going to do whatever it can to manage its public image. The management of image is a multimillion dollar business. The fact that they took down their facebook page because it was being flooded with negativity was a perfectly sensible thing to do. The FB page really wasnt anything more than some free advertising and probably only reached people that already knew about GW.
carmachu wrote: taking away my ability to shop in my fluffy slippers for their product is a real complaint. I can get any book, movie or model OTHER then GW from the confort of my home. But GW took that away.
Your ability to shop online has not been taken away. I bet you $1000 dollars that their is a teenager living nearby you that can help you find the GW website and ebay where you can buy all this stuff from your house while wearing your fluffy slippers.
carmachu wrote: GW spent over a decade harping on the value of converting your models, and showed a wide variety of pictures.......then took away the bit service I enjoyed since the early 90's.
I enjoyed this service too but I do not have the childish notion that a company should continue a service that was costing them money instead of making money for them. I surely wish that I could call the Chevrolet dealer and get parts for a 1957 Chevy but I have no expectation for them to fullfill that request. In any event their are other manufacturers that sell their own custom made bits and third party resellers that sell GW bits. You are whining and crying over milk that has not even been spilled.
Some of you people remind me of a District Attorney that just piles on a hundred trivial or irrelevant duplicate charges against a defendant. Try sticking to issues that matter like quality control, pricing and sloppy rule writing. Just piling on all these silly and trivial complaints makes your case against GW look weaker not stronger.
Trying to police critisms about their product and how they act (The forums as you said and taking down their facebook page during the "Space Marine" debacle) )
Any business is going to do whatever it can to manage its public image. The management of image is a multimillion dollar business. The fact that they took down their facebook page because it was being flooded with negativity was a perfectly sensible thing to do. The FB page really wasnt anything more than some free advertising and probably only reached people that already knew about GW.
Not really, it shows they are not listening to the customers or at least trying to speak to them to convey the question it has in at least some sort of way shows that it is isolating itself from any type of feedback that can make itself better, rather if it is negative or constructive in anyway and improving relations with the customers. And for people knowing about GW? For Miniwargaming yes, because it is one that introduced it, but it is still relatively small compare to Hasbro (with the inclusion of WoTC) and the FB page could have been used to shoe the release of new products before they release (which is kind of useless since they only give a week or so before release, if I recall correctly, so I could be wrong on that since I have not bought a GW thing in three months...)
JWhex wrote: Except for the complaints about high prices and the horrible product of finecast, the rest of the complaints listed in the quotes above barely amount to a hill of beans. Some of them dont even make any sense.
"Trying to stop global internet sales of their products, by forcing rules and regulations on independet retailers."
JWhex wrote: Except for the complaints about high prices and the horrible product of finecast, the rest of the complaints listed in the quotes above barely amount to a hill of beans. Some of them dont even make any sense.
"Trying to stop global internet sales of their products, by forcing rules and regulations on independet retailers." This is great news!
Hill of beans indeed...
There you go H.B.M.C, now your armor is of the purest fan boi white...
New from games workshop, Fineman Arguments, the latest in defenses against naysayers that don't believe in the One True Hobby, whose prophet is Kirby
JWhex wrote: Except for the complaints about high prices and the horrible product of finecast, the rest of the complaints listed in the quotes above barely amount to a hill of beans. Some of them dont even make any sense.
"Trying to stop global internet sales of their products, by forcing rules and regulations on independet retailers."
Hill of beans indeed...
Someone needs to give the professor a "T. Kirby" nametag so we can make memes for all of GW's actions
Kingsley wrote: The so-called "decade of dickishness" is just a dumb phrase. First off, it seems like the real complaints started in 2009 and they just added the online sales thing in 2003 to make it seem like this had been going on forever. Second, practically any organization will look bad if you focus entirely on things that you don't like. You could just as well make a similar list with everything GW has done well across whatever period.
Not really, only to you. For other folks, taking away my ability to shop in my fluffy slippers for their product is a real complaint. I can get any book, movie or model OTHER then GW from the confort of my home. But GW took that away.
GW spent over a decade harping on the value of converting your models, and showed a wide variety of pictures.......then took away the bit service I enjoyed since the early 90's. Yet another problem.
I can go on if you like.
Let me...
Finecast crap...
Slow Codex updates.. to push people to buy new armies
Poorly done Power creep... to force people into getting a new army to stay competative...
No offical Tournament suport
Making White Dwarf into an advert magazine with little substance..
Trying to stop global internet sales of their products, by forcing rules and regulations on independet retailers..
Stopping open gaming in their stores (there are no veterans allowed at my local GW for example)..
Constant price hikes...
No offical Forums..
Removing lots of articles from their main site...
Instructing their store employes to aggressively target customers (most often Childrean, a despicable practice) Trying and push the latest product on them... (Many times when i whent into one of their stores, to buy something I got pestered if I had seen this or that and, arnt you going to buy this or that.. Until I told them the Shut the F up and leave me alone).
Abandoning many games.. Like Warhammer fantasy Roleplay, Mordheim and Blood Bowl...
We can go on if you like Kingsley... Because the list of wrongdoings is far from complete....
Just for that, I have to give you an Exalt my friend!
I have to say, GW has been getting worse, and still has the attitude that they think they are the only ones making this type of product (still can be argued that they are still the largest to a point, but that is slowly slipping away from how they A) Treat customers and/or potential customers like they are inferiors to them, or freeloaders if GW stuff is bought anywhere except their website.
B) Trying to police critisms about their product and how they act (The forums as you said and taking down their facebook page during the "Space Marine" debacle) )
Now I am not one for complaining about a business and that too much, I just want to play a game and hobby for heaven's sake, but if a business is going to treat me like that..... well I would just buy their damn product somewhere else from the second hand market or find substitutes for it.
Except for the complaints about high prices and the horrible product of finecast, the rest of the complaints listed in the quotes above barely amount to a hill of beans. Some of them dont even make any sense.
Nucflash wrote: Slow Codex updates.. to push people to buy new armies
This does not make any sense. You would want to release codexes faster not slower to push people to buy models.
Actually, there is a fine balance between the two. If you release too fast, you're sure to run into supply problems. If you don't release fast enough, you're up against 7+ year releases (take Codex Eldar for example).
Nucflash wrote: Poorly done Power creep... to force people into getting a new army to stay competative
Unless you are really dedictaed to tournaments this is just a nonissue as well. Besides codexes are rotated only after several years and people would raise hell if a codex came out that did not have some new and interesting models. Releasing new models that people want to buy is how they stay in business. Sure they could do a better job at writing rules but as a general criticism I just have to roll my eyes at it. In any event you dont have to buy an entire new army when your codex is renewed that is just exageration.
If you are highly competitive in any arena you are going to have to spend more money on your hobby or sport. That is not the fault of the manufacturer, it is the result that their will always be people that are willing to spend a lot of money for even a small advantage. If you cant deal with itthe heat, GTFO of the kitchen
People who have invested heavily in a product have the right to feel wrong done by - basically the dickishness factor comes into play when something is SEEN to be unfair. Regardless, there is stong evidence to support power creep in alot of books (not all but most) and this is further bolstered by WD battle reports showing the new shiney army as the victor - its a sales thing, but even so, if it deteriorates the fun value of your investment then that is dickish behaviour. Here in Australia the tournament scene is rampant, even in the friendly sense, the "take all comers army" and tactics to suit is common.
Another nonissue and not likely to be strictly true. There are plenty of tournaments around. I really dont care who runs them and if GW isnt running them, then you can use proxies and non GW figures.
You may personally not, but that doesn't mean others don't - your viewpoint is entirely your own. We used to have tournament support, this has not been the case for a very long time. It adds to a very long list of things GW used to provide but has slowly but surely been cutting out - to the point that hobby support feels non-existent compared to the 90s.
NEWS ALERT: YOUR FLGS PROBABLY DOES GET MODELS FROM GW FOR FREE THAT COULD BE USED AS TOURNAMENT SUPPORT.
I know for a fact that one of my local FLGS, which is really small gets models for free from GW as "product support" because he told me. He does not use them for tournament support he auctions them off to raise money for a charity. Now if this little one man hole in the wall shop is getting product support from GW, you can bet your own FLGS is also.
Again, you appear to be in a minority - none of the FLGS here in Aus that I personally know get anything for free - if anything they are bound by certain terms to stock items which in some cases end up costing them more in floor space real estate than they make back in their sales price. You cite one location, I can list quite a substantial amount more.
Nucflash wrote: Making White Dwarf into an advert magazine with little substance
So what? GW makes a product you dont like, dont buy it. Its not like they are fooling you into buying something that is different than advertised. Month after month it is aimed at rank one beginners. They are not obligated to make a magazine to fit any particular demographic. Who cares, the WWW has made the white dwarf obsolete, another nonissue that people like to put on their pile of GW angst.
Again, what about those who have taken out subscriptions, then found their investment turn into nothing but a glorified $12 catalog? The point is that this was once a great magazine that has gone the way of the dodo - I reiterate, it's the fact GW have gone backwards in quality that has people concerned and annoyed that it is (has been) a sign of things to come. That they would take a magazine and cram it with adverts isn't seen to be in good taste, its the mindset they are establishing, regardless of whether a person buys the magazine or not.
Another nonissue, those forums were crap, heavily moderated and not worth bothering with. There are dozens of forums that support GW games, why should they waste time and money with a forum? The fact that GW does not have any official forum has zero negative impact on the games.
Again, those forums were a means (or at least were seen to be) to communicate directly through official channels, so the company could actively respond and shift to adapt with the changing market - any other company would LOVE to have this kind of feedback channel. I regularly use the ASUS forums for reporting defective or poorly written firmware... you don't see them killing the forum or putting their head in the sand at negative critisism? No, that's because through positive interactions the customer can see the company is trying to do the right thing even through admitting they aren't perfect - and despite a few hiccups, i'll still buy their product. This is a strong example of why GW should have direct community interaction, instead they blocked all means of interaction (even ignoring emails i've sent them on occasion).
Nucflash wrote: Removing lots of articles from their main site
This is hardly worth caring about because of the proliferation of articles on the internet. Also, there are plenty of artists that are selling how to paint and other video guides on the internet, dozens of them have been advertised in recent years. So how is it that GW should be singled out for criticism but other people making the same kind oof products get a free pass? Anyway a lot of their painting articles that were removed used GW paints that have been renamed and reformulated. Seriously, just get over the deletion of a handful of articles that are duplicated elsewhere on the web.
This is about GW, and their poor practices - if others are doing the same thing as GW by disabling useful content, then they are as much in the wrong. Also, this move only echos the views on my previous response. Their website in general (when it was re-done) was a very poor reflection of the previous site. The fact GW advertise themselves as "the hobby" and yet strip away all aspects back to basic sales leaves a sour taste in terms of their recent trade agreements spouting reasoning of trying to do the right thing by building the community, yet remove resources that would bolster such an effort. GW are full of contradictions - just like the "White Metal" to reduce toxins in lead/pewter, yet have now switched to resin full of many toxins - they can't hide the fact it's just a money making effort, yet try to leaving their integrity torn apart.
Nucflash wrote: Trying to stop global internet sales of their products, by forcing rules and regulations on independet retailers
While I personally would not conduct business the way GW does, it is still their product and they have every right to distribute that product in the way they believe will make them the most money. I dont see a lot of threads bashing companies for doing kickstarters that cut out the FLGS and it seems hypocritical to me that if GW sneezes people come out of the wood work and cry that GW is spreading a pandemic flu that is going to kill the hobby.
Kickstarters generally try to bolster profits initially so they can build on capital reinvestment, GW is far beyond being a small Kickstarted entity. When a company as large as GW decides to abruptly cut out the ability for a retailer to sell their product as their respective demographic market sees fit (such as a B&M store making most of its sales online vs in store), it can lead to very bitter resentment. How would you feel if a great chunk of your profits were cut because someone told you who you could sell to? You're probably going to say "Oh I wouldn't over invest so foolishly, it wouldn't effect me", but the fact remains that GW products are still outselling competitors and as a business they rely on that to make ends meet, at least until GW has pushed away enough people to no longer be the dominant sales product - something that is fast becoming fact.
Well I certainly would not take this approach, but GW is paying the rent and taxes on the store so they are entitled to manage their business the way they think will make them the most money. Unless you want to take some kind of highly intrusive stance on how people run a private business, whining constantly about how they should do it "your way" instead of "their way" does not have any real world validity. Because you do not have access to their numbers and other financial information, you are pretty much just back seat driving when you try and judge how someone else should best manage their business affairs.
This is simply silly on their part, it has been a while since I last saw anyone in a GW store playing a game - simply because of the aggressive sales tactics. Sure you mention later that "Car salesmen are aggressive, get a thicker skin", but they are targeting KIDS, not adults. Kids can't defend themselves and are strongly influenced. But back on topic, GW are showing they have no interest in growing the hobby or the community by cutting out store gaming - when I first got into the hobby, I enjoyed walking in to watch a game, and that in itself would get the fires burning to want to buy something... an excellent sales tactic that empowers the buyer, not though bullying tactics. All of these moves can be seen as dickish.
Nucflash wrote: Instructing their store employes to aggressively target customers
LMAO at this. Maybe you are not old enough to have visited a car dealership. Aggressive sales people is just a fact for a lot of businesses, you need to develop a little thicker skin.
Again, Car dealers deal with adults, these guys are dealing with Kids. I know if I was 14 and had a 6 foot bearded man standing over me saying "Why don't you buy a White Dwarf subscription?!", i'd be very intimidated.
Nucflash wrote: Until I told them the Shut the F up and leave me alone
That was exceptionally rude, any sensible manager would have banished you from the premises immediately.
Nucflash wrote: Abandoning many games.. Like Warhammer fantasy Roleplay, Mordheim and Blood Bowl.
You are obviously clueless about what is and what is not supported. Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay has been licensed to Fantasy Flight Games and has a very good product line. Bloodbowl can be purchased from the GW website as can Mordheim and many warbands. This hardly counts as them being "abandoned". In fact you can even get the Mordheim rules for free from GW as a pdf even though they still sell the rulebook. Next time try a little harder and do some research.
Tanakosyke22 wrote: Trying to police critisms about their product and how they act (The forums as you said and taking down their facebook page during the "Space Marine" debacle) )
Any business is going to do whatever it can to manage its public image. The management of image is a multimillion dollar business. The fact that they took down their facebook page because it was being flooded with negativity was a perfectly sensible thing to do. The FB page really wasnt anything more than some free advertising and probably only reached people that already knew about GW.
You're right, any business is well within their rights to protect it, but that is normally done by POSITIVE customer relations, not just putting their head in the sand - again, seen as dickish. If they had actually responded to the public with proper thought rather than a very basic rant of "We do it because we can", then the negative backlash would have at the very least been dampened. Other companies i've seen have actually turned around, said "Yes it was an oversight in process, we have retracted <insert stuff up here> and have actively engaged the <company/persons> affected... rah rah rah"... you get the drift.
carmachu wrote: taking away my ability to shop in my fluffy slippers for their product is a real complaint. I can get any book, movie or model OTHER then GW from the confort of my home. But GW took that away.
Your ability to shop online has not been taken away. I bet you $1000 dollars that their is a teenager living nearby you that can help you find the GW website and ebay where you can buy all this stuff from your house while wearing your fluffy slippers.
Whilst there are other means available, GW are actively trying to make that HARDER. Hell, in 2009 they sent eBay an email to stop 2nd hand sales of any GW product (eBay told them to stick it), but they try every avenue available to direct sales to their online stores only. For those of us in Australia, we have to seek out folks in the US who are flying under the radar (as I have done the past decade) in order to get products at a reasonable price. Imagine how that makes me (and many others) feel?
carmachu wrote: GW spent over a decade harping on the value of converting your models, and showed a wide variety of pictures.......then took away the bit service I enjoyed since the early 90's.
I enjoyed this service too but I do not have the childish notion that a company should continue a service that was costing them money instead of making money for them. I surely wish that I could call the Chevrolet dealer and get parts for a 1957 Chevy but I have no expectation for them to fullfill that request. In any event their are other manufacturers that sell their own custom made bits and third party resellers that sell GW bits. You are whining and crying over milk that has not even been spilled.
Ironic then, that GW is targeting these custom bits sellers in a bid to shut them down as well - so not only have they stopped providing a service, they are trying to block the market from filling that void... sorry but that is just plain dickish. Companies that provide good will in their sales and customer relations do alot better than those who don't, that is why you get brand loyalty from.
Some of you people remind me of a District Attorney that just piles on a hundred trivial or irrelevant duplicate charges against a defendant. Try sticking to issues that matter like quality control, pricing and sloppy rule writing. Just piling on all these silly and trivial complaints makes your case against GW look weaker not stronger.
You seem to be in the minority on this one, but your observed anger towards those who have their eyes open to what GW is doing has been noted.
JWhex wrote: Except for the complaints about high prices and the horrible product of finecast, the rest of the complaints listed in the quotes above barely amount to a hill of beans. Some of them dont even make any sense.
"Trying to stop global internet sales of their products, by forcing rules and regulations on independet retailers."
Hill of beans indeed...
I am not unsympathetic that gamers in Oz have to pay ridiculous prices. However, GW is working in a mostly capitalistic market. My point is that some of the complaints leveled in these lists of GW infamy are trivial and others are just inane because GW is a private company and they have every right to set their own policies.
JWhex wrote: Except for the complaints about high prices and the horrible product of finecast, the rest of the complaints listed in the quotes above barely amount to a hill of beans. Some of them dont even make any sense.
"Trying to stop global internet sales of their products, by forcing rules and regulations on independet retailers."
Hill of beans indeed...
I am not unsympathetic that gamers in Oz have to pay ridiculous prices. However, GW is working in a mostly capitalistic market. My point is that some of the complaints leveled in these lists of GW infamy are trivial and others are just inane because GW is a private company and they have every right to set their own policies.
Of course they have the right, no one is disputing that, its the fact that its seen as dodgy that is the consensus here. Most markets these days are capitalistic by nature, but GW have made bad decision after bad decision which has in effect stagnated the take up of their product rather than grown the demand for it. This in effect is why other companies are now getting their (growing) share of the pie, whilst GW's share declines. Sure their sales figures are still hovering, but that is due to all the marginal profit changes (such as 1 man stores, half the models, twice the price, Finecast material costs etc). It was shown somewhere that the market is growing, yet they sit at a stalemate, and that is of their own doing, much to the dismay of thsoe who have previous invested lots of money in GW products.
JWhex wrote: I am not unsympathetic that gamers in Oz have to pay ridiculous prices. However, GW is working in a mostly capitalistic market. My point is that some of the complaints leveled in these lists of GW infamy are trivial and others are just inane because GW is a private company and they have every right to set their own policies.
Nope. Sorry. Stop right there. I call bull gak.
Capitalist market? And... what... they’re alone in this? All the other miniature game makers out there are somehow not acting in a capitalist market? What about acting in a capitalist market means they should act like dicks towards their customer base? Why do a lot of other companies get by without doing the things GW does.
“They operate in a capitalist market” isn’t an explanation. It isn’t even an excuse. It’s a cop out. It's about as untrue as the "they only have a responsibilty to the shareholders" nonsense that gets peddled by the whitest of white-armoured lunatics that post here.
Saying that they can do whatever they want in a capitalist market is like saying a candidate for presidency can say nasty things about his voters in public. Sure, he/she can do that but why would he/she do that, and will it benefit him/her?
Being able to do something doesn't necessarily mean you should do it.
heartserenade wrote: Saying that they can do whatever they want in a capitalist market is like saying a candidate for presidency can say nasty things about his voters in public. Sure, he/she can do that but why would he/she do that, and will it benefit him/her?
Being able to do something doesn't necessarily mean you should do it.
Oh, come on - saying nasty things about the voters worked so well for Mitt Romney!
Oh, wait.... He lost, didn't he?
Saying bad things about critics helped make 4e what it is today!
Oh, wait... 4e made D&D the second best selling RPG, when it started as first... and 5e is already in the works, isn't it?
The Auld Grump, yeah, insulting your potential customers is seldom a good move....
JWhex wrote: Except for the complaints about high prices and the horrible product of finecast, the rest of the complaints listed in the quotes above barely amount to a hill of beans. Some of them dont even make any sense.
"Trying to stop global internet sales of their products, by forcing rules and regulations on independet retailers."
Hill of beans indeed...
I am not unsympathetic that gamers in Oz have to pay ridiculous prices. However, GW is working in a mostly capitalistic market. My point is that some of the complaints leveled in these lists of GW infamy are trivial and others are just inane because GW is a private company and they have every right to set their own policies.
Do you see the irony in this post?
THEN, you claim that people have no RIGHT to complain?
These policies are stifling the games, company and players, if you haven't figured it out. they are losing sales, trying to offset gains by increasing price, irregardless of the greek salad excuses.
In a free market, complaints serve two functions, and there can be only TWO different outcomes.
JWhex wrote: Except for the complaints about high prices and the horrible product of finecast, the rest of the complaints listed in the quotes above barely amount to a hill of beans. Some of them dont even make any sense.
"Trying to stop global internet sales of their products, by forcing rules and regulations on independet retailers."
Hill of beans indeed...
I am not unsympathetic that gamers in Oz have to pay ridiculous prices. However, GW is working in a mostly capitalistic market. My point is that some of the complaints leveled in these lists of GW infamy are trivial and others are just inane because GW is a private company and they have every right to set their own policies.
Two problems.
1. Legal =/= ethical. This is not a hard concept. Businesses still operate under ethics. Just because they can do something, doesn't mean then should do something.
2. GW is limited on business regulations and trade regulations. Their actions could very well be challenged in courts, but there's no money in those who they attack. There's no such thing as a multimillion dollar FLGS.
About the Power creep and slow Codex uppdates and why they are BAD for most gaming groups. Most people dont like to jump armies, they find one they like and they want to stick whit it. Slow Codex uppdates makes it so that they will be left behind, and get beaten every time (I have seen this happen countless times druing the years 1990-2010, when I played Warhammer fantasy and 40k). The choise that GW leaves them with is Get a new army or stop playing. Many stop playing, others get a new army.. For GW this used to be Win Win, Because when they finaly got around to push out a new Codex in their rotation.. the players who quit would probably buy that codex and start playing again.. and new people would have gotten into the hobby and face the same situation as the people who played/quit or got a new army a few years back...This makes GW alot more money then Releasing codexes faster, because then people would just stick to one army and buy a few models here and there..their rules are not built for that kind of release schedule.. They are built so that you should buy new armies on a regular basis.. Because the base rulebook (that changes the meta of the game) has a faster release then many codexes...
This business policy used to be very successful for GW... But what they dident count on was that the competition would use another aproche.. suddenly everyone could play their favorit army and never need to get a new one... Suddenly people stoped coming back.......
Also my List was all the things I(and everyone I know in my local gaming meta about 70 people) dissagree with.. and it is very long these days.... These things are not Nonissues, because if they were we would all still be playing WHFB and 40k...
JWhex wrote: I am not unsympathetic that gamers in Oz have to pay ridiculous prices. However, GW is working in a mostly capitalistic market. My point is that some of the complaints leveled in these lists of GW infamy are trivial and others are just inane because GW is a private company and they have every right to set their own policies.
Nope. Sorry. Stop right there. I call bull gak.
Capitalist market? And... what... they’re alone in this? All the other miniature game makers out there are somehow not acting in a capitalist market? What about acting in a capitalist market means they should act like dicks towards their customer base? Why do a lot of other companies get by without doing the things GW does.
“They operate in a capitalist market” isn’t an explanation. It isn’t even an excuse. It’s a cop out. It's about as untrue as the "they only have a responsibilty to the shareholders" nonsense that gets peddled by the whitest of white-armoured lunatics that post here.
Apparently computer games in Australia cost twice as much as they do in North America Source
Now tell us why you think that Games Workshop should buck this trend and spontaniously set prices at a below-market level. Or if you want to be a grown-up, there's an article here explaining some of the reasons.
Now tell us why you think that Games Workshop should buck this trend and spontaniously set prices at a below-market level. Or if you want to be a grown-up, there's an article here explaining some of the reasons.
Because every other miniature wargaming company does it?
And you are the only one talking about "below-market", what GW does in Australia has nothing to do with market prices.
The depts that Dakka's White Knights have plunged into that they now even defend GW's Australia's pricing policies... sheesh!
Now tell us why you think that Games Workshop should buck this trend and spontaniously set prices at a below-market level. Or if you want to be a grown-up, there's an article here explaining some of the reasons.
Because every other miniature wargaming company does it?
Then ask then how they manage to do it. It's unreasonable to knock GW for pricing themselves in line with large companies. My gut feeling would be that GW, being more mainstream, prices itself in comparison to other comparable hobbies (video games, board games etc) whereas the more niche wargaming companies mainly only appeal to specialised wargamers.
Now tell us why you think that Games Workshop should buck this trend and spontaniously set prices at a below-market level. Or if you want to be a grown-up, there's an article here explaining some of the reasons.
Because every other miniature wargaming company does it?
Then ask then how they manage to do it. It's unreasonable to knock GW for pricing themselves in line with large companies. My gut feeling would be that GW, being more mainstream, prices itself in comparison to other comparable hobbies (video games, board games etc) whereas the more niche wargaming companies mainly only appeal to specialised wargamers.
How they MANAGE to do it?! Seriously, are you this removed from reality or are you just trolling at this point?
GW's states in their financial reports that they have a 76% average margin on their miniatures, you don't think that they could MANAGE to lower their prices in Australia to keep them in line with other miniature companies?
And its unreasonable to knock GW for pricing themselves with unrelated companies instead of their direct competitors?! Really?
They charge the prices that they do because they WAN'T, because that is what they believe that their average customer can be charged for it. Its profiteering pure and simple. And then to defend GW and say that their customers can't complain about this policy is beyond !
Apparently computer games in Australia cost twice as much as they do in North America Source
From your "source":
the evidence seems to indicate that game prices in Australia are dropping, albeit slowly. Triple-A new-release titles such as Assassin's Creed III, Halo 4, Dishonored, and Far Cry 3 all launched in the last 12 months with an RRP of $89.95 (for consoles). Retailers also offer discounts on new-release titles, lowering prices even further: for example, at the time of writing, JB Hi-Fi is offering Far Cry 3 for $69.
So the Australian video game market is even commenting that prices are going down, and 34% (of which Australians pay in increase over US prices) is not half. And here's the kicker...
According to EB Games, Australia's largest physical video game retailer, video game prices in Australia have dropped on average about 20 percent in the last year. While Australian game publishers are choosing to stay silent on any official drops in standard recommended retail price (RRP) across new-release titles (all major publishers declined to comment on the issue when contacted by GameSpot), the evidence seems to indicate that game prices in Australia are dropping, albeit slowly. Triple-A new-release titles such as Assassin's Creed III, Halo 4, Dishonored, and Far Cry 3 all launched in the last 12 months with an RRP of $89.95 (for consoles). Retailers also offer discounts on new-release titles, lowering prices even further: for example, at the time of writing, JB Hi-Fi is offering Far Cry 3 for $69.
However, the general feeling among consumers is that game publishers could be doing more to bridge the gap even further.
Earlier this year, the Australian government announced a parliamentary inquiry into high product prices in the Australian IT and technology sector, including video games. In its submission to the inquiry, Australian consumer group CHOICE conducted research to show the differences between Australian and US tech prices, reporting that:
"Australians are paying on average 34 percent more for software, 51 percent more for iTunes music, 88 percent more for Wii games, and 41 percent more for computer hardware than US consumers."
At a subsequent public hearing into the issue, Australian Industry Information Association--which represents hardware, software and digital media vendors--cited retail rental costs, research and development costs, labour costs and warranty obligations as major reasons why Australians are forced to pay more for technology hardware and software.
Speaking at the hearing, former EB Games employee Damien Holley said he had continuously asked local game publishers why games were more expensive in Australia during his time working for the retailer.
"Several explanations came over the years," Holley told the hearing. "The first was [that] the [Australian] dollar was too low against the US dollar. Later, when we got parity, it was claimed that different advertising took up the cost. When informed that the same ads in the US were playing here, the excuse changed to import taxes and the general cost of importing the games."
Later, Holley told the hearing that he believes publishers were prepared to adjust game prices to "what they believed the market would pay".
So if the market is no longer willing to pay 89 dollars for a game, what does the game industry have to do? Isn't this the basics of supply and demand? As prices rise, the "demand" (in this case the pool of people that would purchase/impulse buy the game within the first week) starts to shrink and supply stays steady. Game companies want to sell their games, the exact same way as GW wants to sell their models, the problem is that the game companies are realizing that people in Australia are getting sick of being charged 30 dollars more on a game that costs maybe 10 dollars to make. And what's the major difference between a game in Australia and the US? Not much (though our friends from down under can correct me). I mean it's not like Australia has censorship laws like China does, where game companies have to almost actively develop a second version of the game for a single country (idk what the game playing population is in China).
But how do you explain the pricing strategy for things like digital content? As it has been pointed out before, someone can fly to the US and purchase a physical copy of Adobe products for less than what it costs to buy it digitally from within the borders of their own country! I'm not contesting that things cost more in Australia, and that GW is most likely falling under some of the same "issues" that are plaguing other companies, but a lot of those other companies are coming under fire for their pricing, including Apple, Adobe, and some game companies (at least there was a link in that article...
The problem is that other game companies, competitors of Games workshop, are able to offer their products for roughly the same price as their home country prices, why can't Games Workshop do the same? They had a massive production system with "manufactorums" (for lack of a better word) in North America, China (for a time), and Australia to assuage the difficulties of shipping products to their stores. Apparently that didn't work, because they've shut down Australia and North America (and have pulled out of China few years now).
Now tell us why you think that Games Workshop should buck this trend and spontaniously set prices at a below-market level. Or if you want to be a grown-up, there's an article here explaining some of the reasons.
Why should Games Workshop buck this trend? Because their direct competitors are able to offer a product of similar (sometimes better, sometimes worse) quality for less than Games Workshop does. That is why, and that is the only reason that matters on a website dedicated to the tabletop miniature wargaming hobby.
Alfndrate wrote: Why should Games Workshop buck this trend? Because their direct competitors are able to offer a product of similar (sometimes better, sometimes worse) quality for less than Games Workshop does. That is why, and that is the only reason that matters on a website dedicated to the tabletop miniature wargaming hobby.
While I agree with you in spirit, I'll point out that you actually haven't showed a reason for GW to buck their trend. GW will price to whatever the market will bear. If they say "Codexes are 100 AUD now" and people keep buying Codexes, they get to go right on their merry way regardless of what their competitors sell their products for.
The only thing that GW will listen to is sales. If people in Australia keep buying at high prices, the prices will stay high or get higher. If people in Australia stop buying (and ideally tell GW why in a structured and reasonable fashion), the prices will come down.
Alfndrate wrote: Why should Games Workshop buck this trend? Because their direct competitors are able to offer a product of similar (sometimes better, sometimes worse) quality for less than Games Workshop does. That is why, and that is the only reason that matters on a website dedicated to the tabletop miniature wargaming hobby.
While I agree with you in spirit, I'll point out that you actually haven't showed a reason for GW to buck their trend. GW will price to whatever the market will bear. If they say "Codexes are 100 AUD now" and people keep buying Codexes, they get to go right on their merry way regardless of what their competitors sell their products for.
The only thing that GW will listen to is sales. If people in Australia keep buying at high prices, the prices will stay high or get higher. If people in Australia stop buying (and ideally tell GW why in a structured and reasonable fashion), the prices will come down.
Thank you for clearly skipping the entirety of my post, especially the point where I quoted an article in Bryllcream's post that said, "what they believed the market would pay." (I even bolded it so it would be easier to read). I'm well aware that GW is chargine outrageous prices in Australia because people there keep buying the product, but like I mentioned in my post (though i actually believe it was my post I linked, here I'll link it again), there are companies being taken to task for their gouging of the Australian market.
Alfndrate wrote: Why should Games Workshop buck this trend? Because their direct competitors are able to offer a product of similar (sometimes better, sometimes worse) quality for less than Games Workshop does. That is why, and that is the only reason that matters on a website dedicated to the tabletop miniature wargaming hobby.
While I agree with you in spirit, I'll point out that you actually haven't showed a reason for GW to buck their trend. GW will price to whatever the market will bear. If they say "Codexes are 100 AUD now" and people keep buying Codexes, they get to go right on their merry way regardless of what their competitors sell their products for.
The only thing that GW will listen to is sales. If people in Australia keep buying at high prices, the prices will stay high or get higher. If people in Australia stop buying (and ideally tell GW why in a structured and reasonable fashion), the prices will come down.
What we have been doing to at least keep our investment relevant (meaning up to date rules etc) is buying from the UK - wait, GW put an embargo on that... then we went to the US... oh wait, they put the embargo there as well (as of the 15th of July).
You see, I agree that by stopping any purchases here that it should send a message, but it hasn't. The sales decline here in Australia has been going on for a while now, and GW has picked up on the fact that we are seeking other avenues to keep our investment usable whilst denying them the overinflated AUD prices they are asking.
In effect, this has been picked up on by other companies who now recast GW goods (ChinaForge et al) or create the bits needed (Chapter House) thereby filling that void - if GW actually did the right thing by the customer, this market would either not exist, or be so fruitless that it would inevitbly collapse (speculation of course - but not unfounded).
Alfndrate wrote: Why should Games Workshop buck this trend? Because their direct competitors are able to offer a product of similar (sometimes better, sometimes worse) quality for less than Games Workshop does. That is why, and that is the only reason that matters on a website dedicated to the tabletop miniature wargaming hobby.
While I agree with you in spirit, I'll point out that you actually haven't showed a reason for GW to buck their trend. GW will price to whatever the market will bear. If they say "Codexes are 100 AUD now" and people keep buying Codexes, they get to go right on their merry way regardless of what their competitors sell their products for.
The only thing that GW will listen to is sales. If people in Australia keep buying at high prices, the prices will stay high or get higher. If people in Australia stop buying (and ideally tell GW why in a structured and reasonable fashion), the prices will come down.
Thank you for clearly skipping the entirety of my post, especially the point where I quoted an article in Bryllcream's post that said, "what they believed the market would pay." (I even bolded it so it would be easier to read). I'm well aware that GW is chargine outrageous prices in Australia because people there keep buying the product, but like I mentioned in my post (though i actually believe it was my post I linked, here I'll link it again), there are companies being taken to task for their gouging of the Australian market.
I read that, but it doesn't matter. Companies will gouge until they can't. That's the way it works-- price to what the market will bear. If that means that a small segment of the market gets ripped off, so be it-- as long as they keep buying, keep ratcheting up the price. This is known as "price discrimination" and is popular pretty much wherever companies can get away with it.
Aren't GW sales in Australia dropping like a brick? Shouldn't that be a pretty decent indicator that the market isn't bearing the prices anymore? Or at least that other companies may be taking a piece of that rare Wargaming pie that they weren't in the past?
Indeed it is, however GW simply decided "Those convicts are buying from the UK and US... an embargo shall fix that!". However, if GW think that will stop us from buying overseas, they're sadly mistaken - there will always be eBay, Bartertown.com and many other trade sites (and willing people to mail forward to Aus). Resourceful little buggers we are
Alfndrate wrote: Why should Games Workshop buck this trend? Because their direct competitors are able to offer a product of similar (sometimes better, sometimes worse) quality for less than Games Workshop does. That is why, and that is the only reason that matters on a website dedicated to the tabletop miniature wargaming hobby.
While I agree with you in spirit, I'll point out that you actually haven't showed a reason for GW to buck their trend. GW will price to whatever the market will bear. If they say "Codexes are 100 AUD now" and people keep buying Codexes, they get to go right on their merry way regardless of what their competitors sell their products for.
The only thing that GW will listen to is sales. If people in Australia keep buying at high prices, the prices will stay high or get higher. If people in Australia stop buying (and ideally tell GW why in a structured and reasonable fashion), the prices will come down.
But they did do that, Kingsley.
When the Australian gaming populace noticed the disparity in costs between AUS prices and prices in Europe, they began to purchase their goods from European internet sales. When GW noticed that drop in sales at the AUS retailers, rather than adjusting their prices to make them more attractive to AUS customers, they put in place policies to prevent AUS buyers from making purchases from European internet vendors.
This still didn't work to drive sales into AUS retailers. The AUS buyers discovered they could make their purchases from North American internet vendors. Again, GW noticed that their AUS retail sales weren't as good as they should be. They again had the opportunity to realize that their pricing was out of line with what the AUS consumer was willing to pay. Instead of addressing their AUS pricing, they enacted policies to prevent North American internet retailes from selling to AUS consumers.
Ther AUS consumer has tried to speak with their wallet, but GW hasn't seemed interested in hearing. We will have to wait and see what the final upshot is, but I actually highly doubt that these restrictions on international internet purchases are going to result in significantly greater sales in AUS retail locations. The more likely occurance will be consumers moving to less expensive competitors. Maybe then GW will realize the mistake in their AUS pricing and adjust the pricing policy, but there's no way to really predict that.
Kingsley wrote: The only thing that GW will listen to is sales. If people in Australia keep buying at high prices, the prices will stay high or get higher. If people in Australia stop buying (and ideally tell GW why in a structured and reasonable fashion), the prices will come down.
This argument is repeated again and again and again (not just for Australia, but for GW in general). Games workshop sales have stagnated and even dropped. Games workshop is losing market share.
People aren't "just buying it anyway". They are moving away from GW. When Australians decided to show they aren't willing to pay those prices and started buying internationally, they didn't aren't going to adjust the prices, they are going to lock down international sales.
You can't have your pie and eat it too, you can't say GW is only doing it because Australians (or any other market) are continuing to buy it and ignore the facts that GW has been stagnant for several years in an otherwise growing market and that Australians HAVE been trying to buy at lower prices overseas.
This is why there's the widely held belief that GW are trying to prop up short term numbers at the expense of the community and thus long term numbers.
Well if I'm ever planning a trip to Australia I'm jamming as much product in my suit cases as I can fit. Just so I can give you guys some hook ups to spit the evil empire.
d-usa wrote: Do we have any numbers in the growth of Watmahordes, Infinity, FoW, etc down under?
Not sure. I dunno which of those are publicly traded companies and would have their data available in public disclosures. I'm pretty sure PP is a private company, so doesn't have to disclose their sales/revenue information.
I would be curious to see numbers for WM/H in aus, it has effectively killed GW here now :0 haven't seen a game of 40k in 2 months now.
GW doing nothing for our shops and even they don't seem to have much enthusiasm for the product.
wowsmash wrote: Well if I'm ever planning a trip to Australia I'm jamming as much product in my suit cases as I can fit. Just so I can give you guys some hook ups to spit the evil empire.
A more contemporary version of taking Blue Jeans to Russia!
(I had a friend in the 80's who financed a trip to Russia mostly by packing tons of jeans and selling the ones he was wearing at the end of the day.. )
Did the imposition of the ROW embargo lead to a recovery in Asia-Pacific sales figures? It was put in place from 1 June 2011 so I'd expect any impact to be seen by now.
PLC wrote: Did the imposition of the ROW embargo lead to a recovery in Asia-Pacific sales figures? It was put in place from 1 June 2011 so I'd expect any impact to be seen by now.
Did the financials reflect this?
It is hard to gauge the actual impact of the embargo without getting deep into the weeds of speculation.
In simple numbers, the Australian segment did see a 7% increase during FY2012. North America saw an 11% increase though with no embargo in place. Asia saw a 49% increase. Europe grew by 1% and the UK by 2%
How much of that was due to the annual price increase as opposed to actual real sales? How much of the sales from Europe to Australia switched to North America to Australia? No doubt a lot of smaller orders were processed in country. Shipping costs from North America (especially the US) to Australia are much higher than they are from the UK to Australia - so each order would need to be higher in order to see a cost benefit. The further out you get from the event - the more information you can use in order to determine the larger impact. They may have had a slight uptick in local sales at the expense of a larger downturn in the player base which will impact the long term sales outlook (which anecdotally seems to be the case so far).
Kingsley wrote: The only thing that GW will listen to is sales. If people in Australia keep buying at high prices, the prices will stay high or get higher. If people in Australia stop buying (and ideally tell GW why in a structured and reasonable fashion), the prices will come down.
This argument is repeated again and again and again (not just for Australia, but for GW in general). Games workshop sales have stagnated and even dropped. Games workshop is losing market share.
People aren't "just buying it anyway". They are moving away from GW. When Australians decided to show they aren't willing to pay those prices and started buying internationally, they didn't aren't going to adjust the prices, they are going to lock down international sales.
You can't have your pie and eat it too, you can't say GW is only doing it because Australians (or any other market) are continuing to buy it and ignore the facts that GW has been stagnant for several years in an otherwise growing market and that Australians HAVE been trying to buy at lower prices overseas.
This is why there's the widely held belief that GW are trying to prop up short term numbers at the expense of the community and thus long term numbers.
Games Workshop thinks that those sales are going to Internet retailers in other parts of the world and that if it can shut those down or prevent them from selling to Australians, the sales will come back. Hence they are imposing a harsher regime instead of lowering prices. I personally think they're wrong, but I suppose we'll see soon enough...
The PC not working is really silly. I do lots and lots of presentations and you always bring spares of everything. If someone doesn't work you pull out a backup, especially when its important.
GW is doing very little for the consumer, i am hoping for a total collapse and buy out by an organization that wants to rebuild the image, not destroy the company.
IMO what is going to happen is that something like PP and other miniature dealer will band together, buy out GW, and crush it. Which is sad because I still like GW's none resin minatures and also the basic gameplay better than anything else.
IMO what is going to happen is that something like PP and other miniature dealer will band together, buy out GW, and crush it.
So you are hypothesizing that a group of people are going to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in the GW brand and then destroy the brand and their investment? Doesnt that sound a little or a whole lot crazy to you when you stop and think about it for 10 seconds?
Kingsley wrote: The only thing that GW will listen to is sales. If people in Australia keep buying at high prices, the prices will stay high or get higher. If people in Australia stop buying (and ideally tell GW why in a structured and reasonable fashion), the prices will come down.
This argument is repeated again and again and again (not just for Australia, but for GW in general). Games workshop sales have stagnated and even dropped. Games workshop is losing market share.
People aren't "just buying it anyway". They are moving away from GW. When Australians decided to show they aren't willing to pay those prices and started buying internationally, they didn't aren't going to adjust the prices, they are going to lock down international sales.
You can't have your pie and eat it too, you can't say GW is only doing it because Australians (or any other market) are continuing to buy it and ignore the facts that GW has been stagnant for several years in an otherwise growing market and that Australians HAVE been trying to buy at lower prices overseas.
This is why there's the widely held belief that GW are trying to prop up short term numbers at the expense of the community and thus long term numbers.
Games Workshop thinks that those sales are going to Internet retailers in other parts of the world and that if it can shut those down or prevent them from selling to Australians, the sales will come back. Hence they are imposing a harsher regime instead of lowering prices. I personally think they're wrong, but I suppose we'll see soon enough...
Agreed, the general consensus here is that GW will do a "Canada" here in their next move. The only time i've been into a GW store in recent years is to window shop, and even that has become very rare as the local GW staffers have an obnoxious attitude (coupled with poor sales tactics). I've honestly never seen the stores so barren, or so many FLGS drop the GW product (or limit the stock) so much as the last two years here down under.
A lot of us still have contacts in the US who are able to give us decent discounts - i'm talking anywhere between 25% to 31.5% off the USD RRP - which has filled any needs when it comes to purchasing new products rather than second hand, but generally alot of us wait for the products needed to hit the second hand market. I've still got Wraithguard I bought for between $3 and $5 USD each in bulk (given they were going for $25 AUD here at the time, just a bit of a discount) - but this is an extreme example of what can be saved whilst denying GW any new product sales.
Fortunately on a personal note, I got in at the right time and did a few bulk purchases and as a result really only need one or two items that I can happily wait for when they are released. I'm just saddened at seeing so many Aussies drop 40k when most of my childhood was filled with great memories of it. The group that still exist in my home town are very hardened veterans (two of currently ranking in the top 15 here in Aus) and as such still follow 40k by mostly participating in tournaments, yet do most of their purchases though second hand channels.
PLC wrote: Did the imposition of the ROW embargo lead to a recovery in Asia-Pacific sales figures? It was put in place from 1 June 2011 so I'd expect any impact to be seen by now.
Did the financials reflect this?
It is hard to gauge the actual impact of the embargo without getting deep into the weeds of speculation.
In simple numbers, the Australian segment did see a 7% increase during FY2012. North America saw an 11% increase though with no embargo in place. Asia saw a 49% increase. Europe grew by 1% and the UK
My purchasing behaviour reflects what you stated - shift from UK (Maelstrom /Wayland) to the US (reseller of unpacked product) and eBay and selected shops (Citadel Ultimate Paint Set). Overall my GW purchasing - typically USD 2000 per annum - fell by about 25%. However more than replaced by FW (mainly Heresy) due to cheaper than local GW.
Local purchases fell to almost nil. Previously I'd spend money once a month at local GW but now nothing. Even Army Book and codex purchases have been replaced by iBook which are 50% cheaper.
So in my case GW has shifted sales from UK to US - and reduced local spend
Local GW does nothing for community - but given I don't spend thre I don't expect them to do do anything from an altruistic pov.
I ran NZ's largest 40k event for the past five years taking over from GW's GT. Also run 5-6 WHFB events including Teams Champs and Masters for 40k and Fantasy.
The local manager is openly hostile to clubs refusing to display posters for the local club and tournaments. In his words "Every time I send someone I lose a customer".
I guess my point is I am worried that long term GW isn't concerned with the health of their franchise but driven by the next period's financials. That certainly is how it appears the message is being delivered to the coal face
Agreed, the general consensus here is that GW will do a "Canada" here in their next move. The only time i've been into a GW store in recent years is to window shop, and even that has become very rare as the local GW staffers have an obnoxious attitude (coupled with poor sales tactics).
Blimey, tell me about it! As a salesman of some 12 years experience in an industry which consists of many more considered purchases than toy soldiers, the sheer ineptitude and unsophistication of their technique is barely a step above smacking customers in the face with a box before grunting "New. Shiny. You buy now!"
Agreed, the general consensus here is that GW will do a "Canada" here in their next move. The only time i've been into a GW store in recent years is to window shop, and even that has become very rare as the local GW staffers have an obnoxious attitude (coupled with poor sales tactics).
Blimey, tell me about it! As a salesman of some 12 years experience in an industry which consists of many more considered purchases than toy soldiers, the sheer ineptitude and unsophistication of their technique is barely a step above smacking customers in the face with a box before grunting "New. Shiny. You buy now!"
That gave me a laugh, completely agree - I understand they are sales folk, but there are ways to do it. Casually talking to the customer is one thing, bombarding them with "Have you seen this? Have you got a WD subscription? Why not? How about you take on out now?" which gets the all too common response from me "Sorry its not relevant to me anymore", typically retorted with "Oh but all the painting tutorials!"... "I have carpal tunnel - I outsource my painting"... Honestly, if I wanted only pretty pictures, i'd just jump on coolminiornot...
And my god, the looks you get when you mention your army has custom conversions that DON'T include GW kitbashed goods. It's like you told a devout Catholic that Satan makes a killer potato salad at your monthly dinner parties.
Your ability to shop online has not been taken away. I bet you $1000 dollars that their is a teenager living nearby you that can help you find the GW website and ebay where you can buy all this stuff from your house while wearing your fluffy slippers.
Please show me the shopping cart on thewarstore or miniature mart where I can click and buy the product without hassle. GW store is overpriced as is ebay.
So I take you up if you can find it on either of those two websites that have given me great service and product, unlike the two crappy sites you listed. Remeber its add it to the cart and buy. Not download a list and call.
My ability to shop where I want and what I want is been reduced. And if I lived in Australia, its been reduced more.
I enjoyed this service too but I do not have the childish notion that a company should continue a service that was costing them money instead of making money for them. I surely wish that I could call the Chevrolet dealer and get parts for a 1957 Chevy but I have no expectation for them to fullfill that request. In any event their are other manufacturers that sell their own custom made bits and third party resellers that sell GW bits. You are whining and crying over milk that has not even been spilled.
Funny how wanting to buy a product as one has for over decade is a "childish notion". I am a consumer and customer, they have removed a great service THEY have championed for over a decade. Its not childish at all. They claim it lost them money, yet I bought more kits when I could convert them to taste. I buy no kits now as I'm not interested in buying kits for just parts. Other manufacturers, while great, dont give me everything I desire in bits, there are several that are just not having much for said armies at all.
Further still, someone is forgetting that GW is activing trying to SUE into oblivion, one of the bit sellers. So no perhaps they wont be around.
I'm neither whining nor crying, unlike the childish antics YOU are acting in. As a comsumer, I am stating things I would want in a company, like and enjoyed. If Apple or SOny or Microsoft decideds to move in directions I dont like, they too no longer get my money either. You can either provide, as a company, things I wish and I will give you money, OR you can do as you wish in ther other direction and folsk wont give you their money- and given their information, less people are buying.
Some of you people remind me of a District Attorney that just piles on a hundred trivial or irrelevant duplicate charges against a defendant. Try sticking to issues that matter like quality control, pricing and sloppy rule writing. Just piling on all these silly and trivial complaints makes your case against GW look weaker not stronger.
And you remind me of the drunken football fan that will defend their team even when they go 0-16 as the best team ever. Try sticking to facts rather then making up things in a fanboy defense.
In simple numbers, the Australian segment did see a 7% increase during FY2012. North America saw an 11% increase though with no embargo in place. Asia saw a 49% increase. Europe grew by 1% and the UK by 2%
How much of that was due to the annual price increase as opposed to actual real sales? How much of the sales from Europe to Australia switched to North America to Australia? No doubt a lot of smaller orders were processed in country. Shipping costs from North America (especially the US) to Australia are much higher than they are from the UK to Australia - so each order would need to be higher in order to see a cost benefit. The further out you get from the event - the more information you can use in order to determine the larger impact. They may have had a slight uptick in local sales at the expense of a larger downturn in the player base which will impact the long term sales outlook (which anecdotally seems to be the case so far).
Its not simple numbers however. You can look at revenue. You need to look at actual unit sales, which dont seem to increase.
IMO what is going to happen is that something like PP and other miniature dealer will band together, buy out GW, and crush it.
So you are hypothesizing that a group of people are going to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in the GW brand and then destroy the brand and their investment? Doesnt that sound a little or a whole lot crazy to you when you stop and think about it for 10 seconds?
Well in the Technology branche it is not so uncommon, to be bought up by the competitor ransacked for all the technical knowledge and then the company is dismantled.
I wonder with all the talk of the Prices of GW in Australlia, how expensive are other tabletop games down under, are they only slightly more expensive, or more?
Yeah only slightly more expensive, it's not too terrible in most cases.
Say I wanted eHaley, a Defender, a box of Trenchers and Maxwell Finn (a warcaster, a warjack, a unit and a solo, roughly a 15 point army, I think it is 1 or 2 pts over but whatever)
$17.99+$34.99+$54.99+$12.99 from Privateer Press's gallery for prices, so $120.96 US
$20.70+$40.50+$63.90+$15.30 from my local store for prices, so $140.40 AU
$11.45+$28.14+$47.27+$8.89 from Wayland Games for prices, so $95.75 AU
That is three places you would go to get it, so the disparity isn't so bad between PP and my local store, but obvious discounts getting it from wayland, and I'm assuming other stores like it (miniature market et all,)
I'd be inclined to agree normally, however the sales tactics of every GW store (bar one) that i've walked into comes off as overbearing and intimidating. Almost as if you owe them something for merely walking into the store. I don't get that at other retail outlets i've purchased goods from :/
You see, they ask questions like "Hey how're you going? What are you into? What army do you play? What project are you working on? What are you buying next? etc", which is all fine and well, but normally the first question most ask is "Can I help you?", which would normally give you the opportunity without sounding rude or dismissive to say "no thank you".
They are masters of engaging a person and hanging onto them, making anyone with decency feel like gak for trying to disengage... especially without buying something :/
The best GW I walked into was the GW Macarthur Sequare store.
The manager walked up, and asked if I was new. I said no, I've been playing for 20 years. He asked what I played, pointed me to the Tyranids, and went off to do his own thing. I appreciated that enough to actually buy something there.
After that, whenever I walked in, again, no pressure. Just chatted about what I was working on, how my Tyranids were going, and then left me to browse.
Sadly, that manager is gone. He now works at an EB store.
Your ability to shop online has not been taken away. I bet you $1000 dollars that their is a teenager living nearby you that can help you find the GW website and ebay where you can buy all this stuff from your house while wearing your fluffy slippers.
Please show me the shopping cart on thewarstore or miniature mart where I can click and buy the product without hassle. GW store is overpriced as is ebay.
So I take you up if you can find it on either of those two websites that have given me great service and product, unlike the two crappy sites you listed. Remeber its add it to the cart and buy. Not download a list and call.
My ability to shop where I want and what I want is been reduced. And if I lived in Australia, its been reduced more.
In your original post you specifically said that your ability to shop online has been taken away. I conclusively demonstrated that you were exagerating and factually incorrect. Now you have changed your complaint to I cant shop online where I want, which is an entirely different situation.
Bugger, if only there were more like him. The only decent experience i've had was with a lad at Chermside in Brisbane (Jeremy I think his name was). Had a good chat, no pressure, even talked about other competing products and conversions... I was the only one in the store, so perhaps he felt safe doing so.
Morachi wrote: Bugger, if only there were more like him. The only decent experience i've had was with a lad at Chermside in Brisbane (Jeremy I think his name was). Had a good chat, no pressure, even talked about other competing products and conversions... I was the only one in the store, so perhaps he felt safe doing so.
The last time I was in the Chermside GW was at the release of 8th edition fantasy (so a few years ago now), and I was having a good chat with one of the guy who worked there about 8th ed BRB that they had just gotten a copy of, and we were having a good relaxed chat about it, and it was great. However, 5 minutes into that the actual manager came in, and after that I could barely get anything said, all he could talk about was how I should preorder the book, do I want to do that now, how about I buy some new models to get ready for 8th, how about I pre-order the special edition, pre-order pre-order pre-order... I couldn't have a nice chat about the new rules any more, couldn't check out the book with him there telling me to pre-order, and I really didn't like the hard-sell attitude he had, so I made some excuses and left pretty quickly. I mean, the manager might well have been a nice guy, I'm sure the sales pitches were drilled into him by the HQ, but the hard-sell attitude just drove me away pretty quickly.
Now, I mostly shop at Good Games at spring hill, or Ace comics in Annerley, and both are far more relaxed places to go and hang out, and have a browse.
The hard sell is aimed, so it seems to me, at new/prospective players or those who otherwise do not have a working knowledge of the product line, such as parent purchasing a gift.
The problem is that it misfires with experienced customers who do have a working knowledge of the product line, and likely already have in mind a series of purchases.
Ex: I play IG, I know that I want more transports, and a new command squad, and a second flier would round out a new competitive list. I can't buy all of that right now, so I go to the shop to pick up a new Chimera and mull over whether I should pick up the command squad before or after I buy a Valk kit.
GW does not seem to do a decent job of distinguishing between different types of customers.
When I regularly patronize a FLGS, most often the owner/employees get to know me and my purchasing habits, and I have found that the most effective customer interactions take that into account. I have also found that as a customer, community building is an effective way to drive me to purchase products.
"Hey there, is there anything that I can help you with? How is that starter set of X working out. So-and-so was in here the other day picking up the rulebook, and I think there are enough folks in the area to get a league going? What do you think? That order you placed last week should be arriving tomorrow. Did you hear that the manufacturer is releasing some new products next month? If you want to take a look at them in person I'm getting a promo box in next week and I'll be painting them up for the display case."
I was in my local flgs when one of the higher up gw guys came in to help the store manager to learn how to "make that sale," and I was just about to throw up in my shoe. I've been in sales, and the sales technique they were using seems to work out pretty well....for a used car salesman. If a FLGS employee cam at me like the corp guy was instructing, I would buy my stuff from one of any other locations. New to game or not, the best sales tech requires learning a little about your buyer. They are looking at 40k? So what kind of movies do you watch? Really liked aliens, and thought that they should have taken over the world...Tyranids, Liked Starship Troopers...IG. SAW 5 was a must see... go, go , gadget Chaos. Selling to a seasoned player can actually be harder than a new player. It's a lot of knowing the customer and showing things that would interest them, but the super agressive sale is a really big put off. For both new and old players.
Kilkrazy wrote: I've got a load of Virgin Atlantic air miles I need to use up.
Maybe I could load a couple of suitcases with GW kits, fly to Australia for free, and make a profit in the trip overall.
I thought Japanese prices were about the same?
At any rate, if you can get things at UK/US prices, you might just be able to do that, but work out your target customers first, and be careful to stay under taxable amounts.
Maddermax wrote:
Now, I mostly shop at Good Games at spring hill, or Ace comics in Annerley, and both are far more relaxed places to go and hang out, and have a browse.
What, Good Games has stock now? Last time I was there all they sold was the current set of Magic blisters and whatever was in the fridge.
Maddermax wrote:
Now, I mostly shop at Good Games at spring hill, or Ace comics in Annerley, and both are far more relaxed places to go and hang out, and have a browse.
What, Good Games has stock now? Last time I was there all they sold was the current set of Magic blisters and whatever was in the fridge.
Mind you that was a few years ago
Well, I don't think they stock GW, but they have a good selection of Warmachine, and apparently a now have a really good warmachine night (though I've yet to make it along to one, new baby's take up a lot of time). But the point was the sales attitude was/is quite different, and makes me much more inclined to return.
Yeah, I've always been turned off by in-your-face sales pitches. When I was younger I was more shy and when shopping I want the least contact to sales people as humanly possible while i also need time to decide on what to buy.
The hard sell out me off going to GW stores. It's like no other store I go in, most places just let me browse in peace,they pounce on you like a car dealership in GW. I don't mind a hobby chat, but it's so artificial because they have to stay on message, do can't talk about anything other than GW product and pushing the newest stuff. That's what happens when your shop is a monoculture of product and the staff are under pressure to hit sakes targets. They aren't like proper hobby shops run by people who love the hobby, rather than being salespeople first, hobbyists (GW only) second.
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