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Post by: Old Man Ultramarine
I'm a new FLGS owner, opened in October. This week ACD Distribution of Madison, Wisconsin held their Games Day for store owners. Basically, a convention/open house for retailers to check out new products coming out and to meet distributor reps. Manufacturers are present to show their new releases and informm retailers. This was my first appearance as a store owner. I knew that GW would be there to do a seminar and to talk to retailers of any problems, including new trade policy. Backstory leading up to Thursday.
On Monday, I ordered our store's Tau, I went reasonably conservative. On Wednesday after running some errands, I come in to store to hear that we may not be getting our order due to shortage of product. I'm like I have to call rep and hear this myself. He confirms that he has no idea what will or will not be getting. I'm like what a mickey mouse outfit. I proceed to start reading various online discussions, mildly amused. I decide I should go down to ACD day the night before instead of very early Thursday morning. GW seminar was scheduled for 8am. I'm all fired up to hear what GW's North American director of sales has to say. I get a front row seat and eventually room fills. GW's boys start by saying they will be doing a powerpoint presentation, show quick effective ways to teach painting, and a quick game play demo called "space marine paintball". At 8:04 GW NA sales director Brandan Bell, says he will take a few questions while they get computer going. He starts by saying a list is going around for everyone to sign, signees will get starter paint set for being at seminar. Brendan filled a cup of ice water and began taking questions. It wasn't pretty, many answers were cookie cutter company line nonsense including no information on upcoming releases, relunctance to tell why corporate refuses to extend lead time of new releases, the Tau debacle, etc. He really doesn't have answers or is probably directed to say nothing by GW. Two more glasses of ice water and several mouthfuls of ice later, the computer still has not fired up. All the time Brendan is taking some tough questions. He has little to offer, but simply saying that GW has a supply chain problem that may take 3-6 months to resolve. He They go into miserable demo of SM paintball. Simply rolling a 4 to wound grants a flick of brush to smear paint on SM. Really, really? That is their idea what retailers can do to promote the Fantasy/ 40k hobby? The room is very agitated at end and I never see sign-up list, nor did we see the computer fire up.
Next up, I go to WoTC's presentation on next MtG prerelease and the year's upcoming releases. WoTC's people answer every question and explain what is coming out and what retailers should be expecting. It was informative and well presented.
Next up, Privateer Press. They reveal the years' release schedule via video presentation (their computer works), 7 games/expansions and new WM faction are discussed. Well presented and informative.
Fast forward to 8pm, demo night to learn some new games. I wander around and stumble upon this picture below. I was like, very fitting way to end the day. 
GW please wake the  up and realize you are destroying yourselves and your customer base.
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Post by: pretre
I shouldn't do this, but... Old Man Ultramarine wrote:On Monday, I ordered our store's Tau, I went reasonably conservative. On Wednesday after running some errands, I come in to store to hear that we may not be getting our order due to shortage of product. I'm like I have to call rep and hear this myself. He confirms that he has no idea what will or will not be getting. I'm like what a mickey mouse outfit. I proceed to start reading various online discussions, mildly amused.
This has been covered in three other threads. At 8:04 GW NA sales director Brandan Bell, says he will take a few questions while they get computer going. He starts by saying a list is going around for everyone to sign, signees will get starter paint set for being at seminar. Brendan filled a cup of ice water and began taking questions. It wasn't pretty, many answers were cookie cutter company line nonsense including no information on upcoming releases, relunctance to tell why corporate refuses to extend lead time of new releases, the Tau debacle, etc. He really doesn't have answers or is probably directed to say nothing by GW.
Shut the front door. People who have nothing to do with making decisions on new release lead time or supply chain issues give you the company line? Even if he does know the reasons he doesn't lay out the company's dirty laundry on the table for his customers? No way. The room is very agitated at end and I never see sign-up list, nor did we see the computer fire up.
Packed room and you don't see the sign-up list? Strange. I'm of two minds for the computer thing. Either they are being dumb and can't run a computer or he got tied down answering questions and blew all their time. Either way, they screwed up. Fast forward to 8pm, demo night to learn some new games. I wander around and stumble upon this picture below. I was like, very fitting way to end the day.
This is just dumb on their part.
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Post by: Old Man Ultramarine
Brandan had an assistant and venue worker on the computer. Never got the screen up.
Other 3 threads do not involve my personal observations. Anyone who was there can confirm what happened.
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Post by: Gentleman_Jellyfish
That empty table was a bit saddening to see. They could have put two others game on there to demo!
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Post by: Polonius
This seems to strengthen the idea that GW has moved from mostly neglecting independent shops to complete neglect. Sad to see.
Admittedly, selling to salesmen is the hardest kind of pitch, but there are a lot of things a company can do to smooth over a fiasco like the tau release. GW is doing none of them...
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Post by: Orktavius
How's privateer press's supply chain these days?
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
Selling products to sales people isnt that hard...especially what was once a top returning product for many stores.
Many years ago, I worked for a contractor supply house (construction contractors) and we would get reps from big tool companies in each year to show off the new stuff...guys from Dewalt, Milwaukee, Bostich... The brands sold themselves, the reps just would brief on changes from last years models and then deal with any concerns of the sales people. One of the easiest jobs in the world...other than the traveling.
They are not attempting to set up new accounts or doing cold calls to comic book stores trying to convince them to carry game materials. If the people were in that room, they already were dealing in the product and would just like to be able to do so better.
If that is what GW brought, they should have stayed home.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Really, is anyone surprised?
Im know GW is run by either two things. Idiots, Or genius with IQ's so vast that we cant possibly understand their logic.
Im going to the latter, even stupid people would realise when they are possibly failing.
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Post by: SoloFalcon1138
When I sold cameras, I attended dozens of seminars run by the camera companies and photo vendors. The ones that were run well were usually the ones run by the better companies. This sounds slipshod and pathetic. I can understand the rep may have been hammered by dealers and their complaints, but it is no excuse to be a major company in the industry and not have a really cool presentation, and then not to even show for demo time.
-5 on professionalism... Automatically Appended Next Post:  hotsauceman1 wrote:Really, is anyone surprised?
Im know GW is run by either two things. Idiots, Or genius with IQ's so vast that we cant possibly understand their logic.
Im going to the latter, even stupid people would realise when they are possibly failing.
We should be surprised. With the level of professionalism we should expect from a business rep to his constituent sales accounts, he shouldn't be doing this job at all. A good sales rep can convince a dealer to sell his stuff, even if it is expensive or hard to sell. He sounded unprepared and unwilling to be there. Most likely, he really has no experience in games or maybe even in selling period.
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Post by: Gentleman_Jellyfish
According to PPS_Simon, things are fine at their warehouse and the failing is on distributors.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
We should be surprised. With the level of professionalism we should expect from a business rep to his constituent sales accounts, he shouldn't be doing this job at all. A good sales rep can convince a dealer to sell his stuff, even if it is expensive or hard to sell. He sounded unprepared and unwilling to be there. Most likely, he really has no experience in games or maybe even in selling period.
I would be willing to bet he was extremely constricted on what he can say to the point where he has a company mandated response.
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Post by: AesSedai
This was an interesting post. The observations and the sad conclusions they lead to are regrettable. Poor showing GW.
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Post by: SoloFalcon1138
I am hoping that GW has a major collapse, kinda like the crusty old man who has a heart attack and sees the errors of his ways. Being protective of your brand and product is one thing, but it seems more and more that GW is getting drunk on its own power.
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Post by: Adam LongWalker
orkybenji wrote:Indarys wrote:Hey look it's a topic about how much GW sucks on Dakka! Never thought I'd see one of those.
Old Man Ultramarine's post was actually very informative and interesting. Your post, however, was basically spam.
True. So very true. Thanks OMU for the information and to let you know there are those that appreciate giving us this kind of input.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Why hope that a company that hires thousands of people, ships products around the world, and makes games loved may thousands collapse?
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Post by: Adam LongWalker
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:I am hoping that GW has a major collapse, kinda like the crusty old man who has a heart attack and sees the errors of his ways. Being protective of your brand and product is one thing, but it seems more and more that GW is getting drunk on its own power.
GW has had a serious downsizing of their sales market since 2010. I have access to the yearly flyers sent to LFGS. There are also a lot of new faces. Kind of sorry for those people as they are the ones that get the brunt of bad news.
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Post by: puma713
Yeah, should've stopped there. About as meaningful as the second post in the thread, just a little more chiding.
@Old Man Ultramarine: I think the last picture says it all. In regard to their customer base and their fans, the company is absent. No matter why their presentation was terrible, it was starkly contrasted by other companies who care about their customers (or at least where their revenue stream comes from). The biggest company with arguably the biggest market share should have the grandest showing at these sort of shows. They should be showing the other companies why they are number 1, or at least, why they believe they are.
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Post by: Grot 6
In a professional briefing, the projections/ graphic presentations need to be preset BEFORE the audience even walks into the room. The guy responsible for that craptastic showing should be walking into a pink slip on Monday.
The discussion is leading to the opinion that it is beginning to look like their company is falling apart around them in an Emperor's New Clothes sort of a way.
Rather amusing Anecdote, but it is leading to a trend of the inept or intentional misconduct.
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Post by: hotsauceman1
I really do hope they shape their act together soon.
Im going to stay optimistic about this and believe they change sooon.
Maybe it will be when the new hobbit product fails again.
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Post by: AllSeeingSkink
hotsauceman1 wrote:I really do hope they shape their act together soon.
Im going to stay optimistic about this and believe they change sooon.
Maybe it will be when the new hobbit product fails again.
I applaud your optimism, but it just seems to be fail after fail to me. They seem to be relying extremely on the addict nature of their customers and being able to pull new customers out of nowhere (seeing as how they have little to no advertising and their word of mouth is increasingly tainted). The sooner they take some big hits in their financial reports that they can't gloss over by reducing expenditure and price hikes, the sooner they can go back to being a company that is run for the customer instead of for the "net profits" line on the next annual report.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:I am hoping that GW has a major collapse, kinda like the crusty old man who has a heart attack and sees the errors of his ways. Being protective of your brand and product is one thing, but it seems more and more that GW is getting drunk on its own power.
Who are you and what have you done with SoloFalcon?
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Post by: Kilkrazy
orkybenji wrote:Indarys wrote:Hey look it's a topic about how much GW sucks on Dakka! Never thought I'd see one of those.
Old Man Ultramarine's post was actually very informative and interesting. Your post, however, was basically spam.
I agree. Compare the Indarys contribution with Pretre's, who engages with the content and offers rebuttals that can lead to further discussion on both sides of the issue.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
We already did KK. As puma said, it holds about the same content as the first reply, only it uses more words and amps up the derision.
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Post by: Stranger83
Whilst a lot of what GW did here is inexcusable I have to let them off with the whole presentation not working thing. Having had to do thousands of such presentations in my life I'm fully aware that you can have tsted it 100's of time, had the thing working 10 minutes before you need it and then when it comes to the big moment you simply cannot get it to work, it really isn't something you can plan for.
That said, the 2 times it has happened to me I have been able to make some kind of presentation, I remember once actually having people intently looking into the screen I was frantically creating by waving my hands aroud as if they could actually see the screens I was describing, I even managed to get the contract for that one.
So, all in all a poor showing from GW, and they should have been able to present "something" even with a broken PC, but I really don;t fault them for the PC not working.
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Post by: M4cr0Dutch
Spacemarine paintball. Really
This thread literally makes me feel ill. I can remember when FASA went down and it was a very hurtful experience. I wouldn't wish that on any gaming community, but at the same time, GW needs to wake up to itself.
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Post by: BlapBlapBlap
Before thread: used to think GW just didn't care about customers that much.
After thread: GW would probably be a more sensitive, socially active and positively publicized company if it was run by Charlie Sheen.
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Post by: Kroothawk
hotsauceman1 wrote:Why hope that a company that hires thousands of people, ships products around the world, and makes games loved may thousands collapse?
GW hires thousands of people because they fire thousands of people (mostly redshirts that fail to meet GW's sales expectations, because surely it's the redshirts fault )
Only jobs created were, guess, in administration. Here the numbers, Sean O'Brian posted in this thread:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/515615.page
and the most recent figures:
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Post by: Goliath
 Old Man Ultramarine wrote:Brandan had an assistant and venue worker on the computer. Never got the screen up.
Other 3 threads do not involve my personal observations. Anyone who was there can confirm what happened.
If there was both an assistant and a venue worker trying to get a single computer working then it makes me think that there might have been a technical issue.
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Post by: Soo'Vah'Cha
The recent news and trends are starting to give me a uneasy feeling for GW, one I have never really experienced in the many years I have enjoyed this hobby.
Downsizing retail outlets.
reducing FLGS access to products.
Restrictions to non GW internet sales.
Shutting down of production sites.
Lack of consumer interaction.
A Ambivalent attitude to sales shows and demos.
Supply problems and shortages.
Canceling gamesdays in many countries.
even now a accelerated release schedule, but with no preview or glimpse at what is really coming from them.
And the latest release the Tau codex, as much as I looked forward to it, on the face of it there are not many new models, and some that have been waiting for a very long time, (farsight model for example, was shown many years ago, and explained away as sculptors demo model).
Its just all starting to point to a grim picture of a company that's trying very hard to make a bottom line that it knows it will not make, just kinda going through the motions.
I hope I am completely and totally wrong on my feelings to these events.
I grew up with GW, and I want to grow old with it too.
I just think I am starting to hear the fat lady singing...
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Post by: Sidstyler
Not when the guy calling all the shots doesn't give two gaks about the company and will just fall back on his nice big retirement fund when they do inevitably die. His only interest is in squeezing every last bit out of them that he can and bailing at the last minute. There won't be any "waking up", GW is destined to go the way of FASA and TSR before them and mainly because Kirby simply doesn't care enough to steer them in another direction.
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Post by: Grimtuff
 H.B.M.C. wrote: SoloFalcon1138 wrote:I am hoping that GW has a major collapse, kinda like the crusty old man who has a heart attack and sees the errors of his ways. Being protective of your brand and product is one thing, but it seems more and more that GW is getting drunk on its own power.
Who are you and what have you done with SoloFalcon?
Took the words right out of my mouth there. That post was a bit of a head scratcher. Not Solo's usual spiel at all.
OT: very interesting read that was. Shows really how much gw need to just die and be bought out before its too late.
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Post by: Soo'Vah'Cha
Question would be, Who could buy them out, or would its IPs just get chopped up and sold off.
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Post by: -Loki-
H.B.M.C. wrote: SoloFalcon1138 wrote:I am hoping that GW has a major collapse, kinda like the crusty old man who has a heart attack and sees the errors of his ways. Being protective of your brand and product is one thing, but it seems more and more that GW is getting drunk on its own power.
Who are you and what have you done with SoloFalcon?
Give it long enough, and even the most ardent supporters resolve will begin to crack.
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Post by: jonolikespie
 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: Question would be, Who could buy them out, or would its IPs just get chopped up and sold off.
It's way too big to just disappear, which is why I am hoping it dies soon and is picked up by someone who realises the potential the game has if they don't do what GW did and interact with their customers and try to keep the vets coming back for more rather than try to push them out.
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Post by: dreamakuma
 M4cr0Dutch wrote:Spacemarine paintball. Really
This thread literally makes me feel ill. I can remember when FASA went down and it was a very hurtful experience. I wouldn't wish that on any gaming community, but at the same time, GW needs to wake up to itself.
What exactly happened to FASA? not to hijack. but all I can find is they left production and held the licenses.
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Post by: SoloFalcon1138
 -Loki- wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote: SoloFalcon1138 wrote:I am hoping that GW has a major collapse, kinda like the crusty old man who has a heart attack and sees the errors of his ways. Being protective of your brand and product is one thing, but it seems more and more that GW is getting drunk on its own power.
Who are you and what have you done with SoloFalcon?
Give it long enough, and even the most ardent supporters resolve will begin to crack.
Don't get my words twisted. I like GW and their games, but to have made a showing like that at a distributors meeting is pretty shameful. They need to get their act straight before the collapse is permanent.
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Post by: -Loki-
 jonolikespie wrote: Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: Question would be, Who could buy them out, or would its IPs just get chopped up and sold off.
It's way too big to just disappear, which is why I am hoping it dies soon and is picked up by someone who realises the potential the game has if they don't do what GW did and interact with their customers and try to keep the vets coming back for more rather than try to push them out.
Going by current trends, CMON will buy them, rerelease 5th edition and convert everything to even more overpriced resin.
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Post by: The Shadow
Oh no! GW failed its professionalism save!
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Post by: Ironwill13791
That is a really bad showing especially when you consider they are supposed to be #1 in the market and give the worst showing whilst skipping out on things. Then you look at all the other companies and they are engaging with the people and look like they give a (bleep). It is just another step down a slippery slope.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Can we please stop saying "Go the way of FASA".
FASA didn't go out of business they chose to shut down as the owners didn't see the miniature gaming industry going anywhere.
And FASA still exists...
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Post by: Old Man Ultramarine
 Goliath wrote: Old Man Ultramarine wrote:Brandan had an assistant and venue worker on the computer. Never got the screen up.
Other 3 threads do not involve my personal observations. Anyone who was there can confirm what happened.
If there was both an assistant and a venue worker trying to get a single computer working then it makes me think that there might have been a technical issue.
Umm, no! They didn't even have the computer plugged in. It's like they walked in room 3 minutes before I did and held on for dear life. Both admitted to not being technically savy.
Please keep in mind that Brendan Bell is the North American director of sales. He was leading the seminar.
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Post by: malfred
That's too bad. I rather like the Riptide.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
I don't think they have one.
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Post by: oni
Sure do! It's 2++ with a re-roll.
Still a shame about this show, but I've been in those shoes before and can sympathize.
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Post by: pretre
H.B.M.C. wrote:We already did KK. As puma said, it holds about the same content as the first reply, only it uses more words and amps up the derision.
Only I agreed that some of his points were valid and that it was pretty lame. I just disagreed with the premise that a company sales rep would provide answers from a corporate strategy standpoint.
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Post by: Saldiven
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: The recent news and trends are starting to give me a uneasy feeling for GW, one I have never really experienced in the many years I have enjoyed this hobby.
I deleted the rest of the post in the interest of saving space.
*The following is purely opinion. It is based on nothing but a slight feeling and some personal experience. I have no internal knowledge, nor any axe to grind.*
I kind of wonder if GW is in negotiations with some company to be bought out, either through purchase of majority stock of a complete conversion back to private holding by an investment company like Blackstone or something similar.
The reason I wonder this is based upon some personal experience when I worked for a publicly traded financial institution which was working behind the scenes to sell off our division to a competitor. The company I worked for started mandating policies from headquarters that seemed to not make a lot of sense from the long term point of view, but did act to make the company appear much more proflitable on paper in the near term. We stopped focusing at all on any degree of growth and instead worked towards making the bottom line seem ever more impressive. When people left the company for one reason or another, approval to hire a replacement was not given. Offices locations were merged. Bonus structures were changed away from growth goals and towards percentage profitability goals. Regional meetings were cancelled. In a nutshell, anything that would result in short term profitability was favored over any activity that served as an investment towards future profitability.
Less than a year after these policies were put in place, my employer announced the sale of my division to Citibank.
The more I hear about the actions recently taken by GW, the more it reminds me of the policies that my former employer (Washington Mutual Bank) took leading up to the sale of our division to Citi. { FYI, the sale of our division took place in 2003, prior to WaMu's collapse in 2008-2009.}
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Post by: BryllCream
ITT - people who think that GW is a wargaming company. They make toy models, not serious tabletop wargames.
Having said that, it makes you wonder what the point of showing up at all was. Either do something properly, or don't do it at all. Maybe the guy just wanted a day out of the office or something.
edit - having properly read the OP rather than glancing through the replies, it's actually not that bad. They failed at getting a computer set-up (boo evil corporate dickheads) and refused to give the journalists there a copy of the GW release schedule for the next couple of years. Hardly Enron.
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Post by: Kanluwen
 BryllCream wrote:ITT - people who think that GW is a wargaming company. They make toy models, not serious tabletop wargames.
Having said that, it makes you wonder what the point of showing up at all was. Either do something properly, or don't do it at all. Maybe the guy just wanted a day out of the office or something.
Might simply be that someone higher up the food chain thought it necessary for GW to have a presence at the show.
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Post by: Banicks
hotsauceman1 wrote:Why hope that a company that hires thousands of people, ships products around the world, and makes games loved may thousands collapse?
Closure of stores in Australia, redundancy of staff, shops run by a single manager, increase in costs, loss of profits and worldwide reports of loss. The beginnings of major problems and they went down the path of changing the trade agreement regarding online sales and further severing ways of selling their product outside of their own limited scope. I'm no expert, but when so much negative PR surrounds something so expensive, and the icing on the cake begins to show signs of lacking customer service (to customers and businesses), I know that this is a problem for any business. IMO, CEO will golden handshake in the next decade before the boat starts to sink showing the long-term damage of recent transpired events. I could be wrong, I probably am, I don't get paid half a million to decide the fate of a billion dollar business. But everyone agrees GW need a wake up call on their practices and treatment of consumers (friendly GW staff members not withstanding) but even with mounting pressures on them now with less staff, and less excuses, how long can it really last?
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Post by: Adam LongWalker
 Kanluwen wrote: BryllCream wrote:ITT - people who think that GW is a wargaming company. They make toy models, not serious tabletop wargames.
Having said that, it makes you wonder what the point of showing up at all was. Either do something properly, or don't do it at all. Maybe the guy just wanted a day out of the office or something.
Might simply be that someone higher up the food chain thought it necessary for GW to have a presence at the show.
They Also had a presence at GAMA this year as well.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
BryllCream wrote:ITT - people who think that GW is a wargaming company. They make toy models, not serious tabletop wargames.
Having said that, it makes you wonder what the point of showing up at all was. Either do something properly, or don't do it at all. Maybe the guy just wanted a day out of the office or something.
edit - having properly read the OP rather than glancing through the replies, it's actually not that bad. They failed at getting a computer set-up (boo evil corporate dickheads) and refused to give the journalists there a copy of the GW release schedule for the next couple of years. Hardly Enron.
You will excuse anything...
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Post by: BryllCream
H.B.M.C. wrote: BryllCream wrote:ITT - people who think that GW is a wargaming company. They make toy models, not serious tabletop wargames.
Having said that, it makes you wonder what the point of showing up at all was. Either do something properly, or don't do it at all. Maybe the guy just wanted a day out of the office or something.
edit - having properly read the OP rather than glancing through the replies, it's actually not that bad. They failed at getting a computer set-up (boo evil corporate dickheads) and refused to give the journalists there a copy of the GW release schedule for the next couple of years. Hardly Enron.
You will excuse anything...
Please enlighten me as to how:
a)a group of sales people struggling to set up IT or
b)a refusal to give out release schedules to journalists
is just cause to dislike GW?
And no, I won't excuse anything. If you want to go through my post history you can find posts complaining about many GW kits being discustingly over-priced, complaints about flyer rules, complaints about GW's refusal to diversify the formats of their rules, dickishly miss-leading sales practices, a refusal to reflect the actual effectiveness of their units in their literature (such as it is), etc.
But if something's bad in one area, it must be bad in another right? No. Try to look beyond a black and white view of things.
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Post by: filbert
Where do you get journalists from? This was a presentation by GW sales reps to store owners....
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Post by: Kroothawk
If you see every public presentation of GW as part of a major anti-marketing campaign to artificially lower sales, all makes sense.
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Post by: fullheadofhair
-Loki- wrote: jonolikespie wrote: Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: Question would be, Who could buy them out, or would its IPs just get chopped up and sold off.
It's way too big to just disappear, which is why I am hoping it dies soon and is picked up by someone who realises the potential the game has if they don't do what GW did and interact with their customers and try to keep the vets coming back for more rather than try to push them out.
Going by current trends, CMON will buy them, rerelease 5th edition and convert everything to even more overpriced resin.
And then bitch and moan at how ungrateful customers are, how they don't realize that CMON is doing them a favor and that it is someone elses fault and out of their control.
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Post by: BryllCream
 filbert wrote:Where do you get journalists from? This was a presentation by GW sales reps to store owners....
Okay then. A bunch of store owners demanding that the GW staff there spontaniously put their own jobs on the line and release company secrets. Refusing to disclose the details of a release schedule that is specifically intended to be kept within the company, does not make make you a dick.
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Post by: Hruotland
a release schedule that is specifically intended to be kept within the company
THAT makes you a dick - no, not a dick, but a stupid businessman. A policy like this (meaning believing you don't have to invest into marketing and advertising) nearly brought the famous Montblanc pen company down, if you don't believe this to be stupid.
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Post by: filbert
BryllCream wrote:
Okay then. A bunch of store owners demanding that the GW staff there spontaniously put their own jobs on the line....
I dont get that from the OP. What I do see is a bunch of store owners, one of which, the OP, is new to the business, being given a shoddy presentation by a high echelon GW sales manager who completely fails to allay some very valid concerns that they have over policy and direction. They aren't asking for trade secrets; they are asking for some info to help assuage doubt. That doesn't seem that unreasonable to me really.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
 oni wrote:
Sure do! It's 2++ with a re-roll.
Still a shame about this show, but I've been in those shoes before and can sympathize.
They are very, very good at rolling ones, then.
The Chapter House case has helped to reveal just how shambolic GW's management actually, genuinely is.
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Post by: filbert
I mean ultimately, it is this rep's job to sell GW to FLGS and the bottom line is he is doing a spectacularly bad job at it. Whether that is down to him or because of corporate failings, is open to interpretation but it is a very pertinent point that there seems to be a certain level of discontent amongst independent retailers and GW for whatever reason are failing to address that.
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Post by: mikhaila
That's funny. Privateer has always blamed distributors and retailers.
I personally talk with many distributors, and get information on when and how much they order from privateer. Many times they have had orders back as far as 6 months. That isn't a failure by distributors if they aren't filling those 
44272
Post by: Azreal13
BryllCream wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote: BryllCream wrote:ITT - people who think that GW is a wargaming company. They make toy models, not serious tabletop wargames.
Having said that, it makes you wonder what the point of showing up at all was. Either do something properly, or don't do it at all. Maybe the guy just wanted a day out of the office or something.
edit - having properly read the OP rather than glancing through the replies, it's actually not that bad. They failed at getting a computer set-up (boo evil corporate dickheads) and refused to give the journalists there a copy of the GW release schedule for the next couple of years. Hardly Enron.
You will excuse anything...
Please enlighten me as to how:
a)a group of sales people struggling to set up IT or
b)a refusal to give out release schedules to journalists
is just cause to dislike GW?
What you've missed is the sheer lack of professionalism. It doesn't matter that they're salespeople, what matters is that they utterly failed to prepare/arrive in time to solve those problems. It matters, as previously mentioned, that, as salespeople, they appear to have spectacularly failed to do what they are employed to do above all else. It also matters that while they may not have had the authority to discuss release schedules, everyone else from the major companies was, and so their own relationship is tarnished in comparison. It also matters that all the other companies appear to respect the retailers enough, and understand the importance of good relations, to spend time in a more informal setting demonstrating their product, whereas GW's sheer arrogance or incompetence in that regard was perfectly illustrated by that picture.
You criticise others for being too black and white, but appear unable to see the wider implications of these actions yourself.
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
If you want to demo a videogame that is in alpha or beta, you need a video in case your build doesn't work.
958
Post by: mikhaila
My veiwpoint is this:
Brendan Bell was put in an impossible situation. Literally no win. I've known him for a good number of years and he is both reasonable,and wants to give retailers the information we need.
However, current GW policies won't let him.
Hell, current GW policies mean that he probably hasn't even been told!
The questions we retailers want answered, he can't. I don't think anyone in GW US trade sales is happy with the state of things. They can't say that of course, unless they want to be looking for a new job.
On top of that, he got stuck in the middle of the Tau debacle, which US trade sales has little or no control over. GW UK is simply not good at forecasting numbers. They look too much at past numbers, with little qualitative analysis or intuition. Very much the problem of living in an Ivory Tower. They try to interpolate points on a line, and project future numbers, using data that may not be correct. They certainly don't look at models for the game the way gamers do. We look at a new codex and can see the "must have 3 units" and the "why the hell would anyone ever take these" aspects of the models, based on the rules. The Ivory Tower boys base sales projections on past models with different rules. Then get scared of making too much.
38067
Post by: spaceelf
BryllCream wrote:ITT - people who think that GW is a wargaming company. They make toy models, not serious tabletop wargames.
Having said that, it makes you wonder what the point of showing up at all was. Either do something properly, or don't do it at all. Maybe the guy just wanted a day out of the office or something.
edit - having properly read the OP rather than glancing through the replies, it's actually not that bad. They failed at getting a computer set-up (boo evil corporate dickheads) and refused to give the journalists there a copy of the GW release schedule for the next couple of years. Hardly Enron.
I do not know what kind of proper read you had, but one of the things that I got from the OP was that business owners were concerned that GW would not deliver products to them on release day, while those products would be available at GW shops and website. Selling stuff when it is first released is a big deal. Lots of store owners are down on the KickStarter and Wyrd for selling stuff to consumers before it is available at shops. I am sure that they will be down on GW if they continue to pull this kind of stuff. GW needs to address this issue head on. Instead, the OP reports that the sales guy gave some kind of company line about supply problems.
29784
Post by: timetowaste85
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: The recent news and trends are starting to give me a uneasy feeling for GW, one I have never really experienced in the many years I have enjoyed this hobby.
Downsizing retail outlets.
reducing FLGS access to products.
Restrictions to non GW internet sales.
Shutting down of production sites.
Lack of consumer interaction.
A Ambivalent attitude to sales shows and demos.
Supply problems and shortages.
Canceling gamesdays in many countries.
even now a accelerated release schedule, but with no preview or glimpse at what is really coming from them.
And the latest release the Tau codex, as much as I looked forward to it, on the face of it there are not many new models, and some that have been waiting for a very long time, (farsight model for example, was shown many years ago, and explained away as sculptors demo model).
Its just all starting to point to a grim picture of a company that's trying very hard to make a bottom line that it knows it will not make, just kinda going through the motions.
I hope I am completely and totally wrong on my feelings to these events.
I grew up with GW, and I want to grow old with it too.
I just think I am starting to hear the fat lady singing...
If my sources are correct, that sinking feeling is well earned. That's all I feel I can safely say, for my source's sake. Take or leave it (this to the general public, not to you in particular).
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Post by: notprop
filbert wrote:I mean ultimately, it is this rep's job to sell GW to FLGS and the bottom line is he is doing a spectacularly bad job at it. Whether that is down to him or because of corporate failings, is open to interpretation but it is a very pertinent point that there seems to be a certain level of discontent amongst independent retailers and GW for whatever reason are failing to address that.
All good points but something strikes me. Inspite all of these failings and the bad impression given to the OP he still walked away having orders placed with them and presumably for the future as well. I would also imagine many (most?) of the other FLGs in attendance were the same.
What motivation do they have to improve (assuming this is not a rare performance) if the punters will by whatever is put forward. Lets face it how often do GW release something out of the ordinary; So what is there to push in a market like that?
70365
Post by: Gentleman_Jellyfish
 mikhaila wrote:
That's funny. Privateer has always blamed distributors and retailers.
I personally talk with many distributors, and get information on when and how much they order from privateer. Many times they have had orders back as far as 6 months. That isn't a failure by distributors if they aren't filling those
Historically they've been 6 months back or currently?
3806
Post by: Grot 6
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: -Loki- wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote: SoloFalcon1138 wrote:I am hoping that GW has a major collapse, kinda like the crusty old man who has a heart attack and sees the errors of his ways. Being protective of your brand and product is one thing, but it seems more and more that GW is getting drunk on its own power.
Who are you and what have you done with SoloFalcon?
Give it long enough, and even the most ardent supporters resolve will begin to crack.
Don't get my words twisted. I like GW and their games, but to have made a showing like that at a distributors meeting is pretty shameful. They need to get their act straight before the collapse is permanent.
The road to heresy is taken a step at a time....  Automatically Appended Next Post: mikhaila wrote:My veiwpoint is this:
Brendan Bell was put in an impossible situation. Literally no win. I've known him for a good number of years and he is both reasonable,and wants to give retailers the information we need.
However, current GW policies won't let him.
Hell, current GW policies mean that he probably hasn't even been told!
The questions we retailers want answered, he can't. I don't think anyone in GW US trade sales is happy with the state of things. They can't say that of course, unless they want to be looking for a new job.
On top of that, he got stuck in the middle of the Tau debacle, which US trade sales has little or no control over. GW UK is simply not good at forecasting numbers. They look too much at past numbers, with little qualitative analysis or intuition. Very much the problem of living in an Ivory Tower. They try to interpolate points on a line, and project future numbers, using data that may not be correct. They certainly don't look at models for the game the way gamers do. We look at a new codex and can see the "must have 3 units" and the "why the hell would anyone ever take these" aspects of the models, based on the rules. The Ivory Tower boys base sales projections on past models with different rules. Then get scared of making too much.
Who is honestly making the decisions here?
Or is it a case of general "No one talks about fight club", because everyone is running on the assumption train that everything is fine, even if the walls are falling down around them?
19754
Post by: puma713
 notprop wrote: filbert wrote:I mean ultimately, it is this rep's job to sell GW to FLGS and the bottom line is he is doing a spectacularly bad job at it. Whether that is down to him or because of corporate failings, is open to interpretation but it is a very pertinent point that there seems to be a certain level of discontent amongst independent retailers and GW for whatever reason are failing to address that.
All good points but something strikes me. Inspite all of these failings and the bad impression given to the OP he still walked away having orders placed with them and presumably for the future as well. I would also imagine many (most?) of the other FLGs in attendance were the same.
What motivation do they have to improve (assuming this is not a rare performance) if the punters will by whatever is put forward. Lets face it how often do GW release something out of the ordinary; So what is there to push in a market like that?
Excellent point, and one I was actually coming in here to make as well. If this showing by GW had been done by a new company with a new product line - or not even new, just obscure - how would the presentation have been taken? Would that company have sold effectively to its market? No - so why does GW? And if everyone walked out of the presentation and made their orders anyway, what motivation does GW have to change?
If a new soda brand came in and said, "Hey guys, we are making some drinks, but we can't really tell you about them. And I don't have one for you to taste, but they're going to be great." And then their table was empty of samples - how many of you retailers would fill your coolers with their product?
49823
Post by: silent25
That is an angle I hadn't thought about. While I felt some of the current policies definitely seemed short term profit, I always assumed it was to cover the disappointment of the Hobbit movie. That is why I thought all the talk of "Kirby padding his retirement" was silly. Trying to maximize profit and returns a few years down the line and then jump ship is open to too many variables. Selling the company out though, that has a fixed price and you can take your money and run. Let the buyer work out the house of cards that had been set up.
This just reminds me of WotC prior to their buyout by Hasbro. It was the peak of the Pokemon craze. No local gaming store could get any boxes of the card game. The WotC store though had crates of them and was selling them like hotcakes. They literally had a wall of boxes. Perception was it was meant to make the store appear more profitable and enable WotC to ask for a higher price. I don't think any of the WotC stores lasted past the second year of the Hasbro ownership.
Back to the OP, reading his story, all I could think was the GW rep was thrown to the wolves with nothing to protect himself with. Seen that first hand enough times.
37755
Post by: Harriticus
GW in a real professional setting is sad. It's like a socially awkward kid that comes out of his basement and goes to a party, only to cling to the wall. It becomes clear GW has no idea what it's doing.
44272
Post by: Azreal13
mikhaila wrote:My veiwpoint is this:
Brendan Bell was put in an impossible situation. Literally no win. I've known him for a good number of years and he is both reasonable,and wants to give retailers the information we need.
However, current GW policies won't let him.
Hell, current GW policies mean that he probably hasn't even been told!
The questions we retailers want answered, he can't. I don't think anyone in GW US trade sales is happy with the state of things. They can't say that of course, unless they want to be looking for a new job.
On top of that, he got stuck in the middle of the Tau debacle, which US trade sales has little or no control over. GW UK is simply not good at forecasting numbers. They look too much at past numbers, with little qualitative analysis or intuition. Very much the problem of living in an Ivory Tower. They try to interpolate points on a line, and project future numbers, using data that may not be correct. They certainly don't look at models for the game the way gamers do. We look at a new codex and can see the "must have 3 units" and the "why the hell would anyone ever take these" aspects of the models, based on the rules. The Ivory Tower boys base sales projections on past models with different rules. Then get scared of making too much.
If the culture has become so deeply ingrained that the head of sales in one of their largest territories cannot turn around to HQ and tell them that their policies aren't working, then he's either utterly incompetent (which, by the sounds of your post, he isn't ) or things are so royally fethed at GW that there isn't really any hope.
7680
Post by: oni
I think some might be jumping to conclusions here. This show is an isolated incident.
There undeniably seems to be a breakdown in communications within GW, but this can easily be corrected.
The shutdown of production in Memphis is a little concerning, but doesn't really surprise me. I specculate that it's probably (not necessarily the reason) for the better in terms of consistent quality control, especially for Finecast.
958
Post by: mikhaila
 Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote: mikhaila wrote:
That's funny. Privateer has always blamed distributors and retailers.
I personally talk with many distributors, and get information on when and how much they order from privateer. Many times they have had orders back as far as 6 months. That isn't a failure by distributors if they aren't filling those
Historically they've been 6 months back or currently?
Happens from time to time. Last I herd, they had taken a portion of their line and decided those were core products that would be in stock, with other items made as they got time in the schedule. So most of the stuff you want should be in print, and quite a few codes might go out of production and sell out for several weeks at a time. From what i heard, they were mostly successful with this, filling most orders on those core products, but not all. I can see it on my end from which products i can find from various distributors, and which ones I just can get in for a couple of months.
Prior to this was when they were months behind. Some models we didnt' see for 6 months, some for just a month. Distributors would have several shipments in the pipeline, and placing more each month. I kept my stores 80% stocked on the line by going through 5 or 6 distributors and re-ordering whatever they had pretty heavily, since we didn't know when we'd get it back.
Much, much better at this point. But its cyclical, and Privateer has had many cycles where getting product was a problem. Automatically Appended Next Post:  azreal13 wrote: mikhaila wrote:My veiwpoint is this:
Brendan Bell was put in an impossible situation. Literally no win. I've known him for a good number of years and he is both reasonable,and wants to give retailers the information we need.
However, current GW policies won't let him.
Hell, current GW policies mean that he probably hasn't even been told!
The questions we retailers want answered, he can't. I don't think anyone in GW US trade sales is happy with the state of things. They can't say that of course, unless they want to be looking for a new job.
On top of that, he got stuck in the middle of the Tau debacle, which US trade sales has little or no control over. GW UK is simply not good at forecasting numbers. They look too much at past numbers, with little qualitative analysis or intuition. Very much the problem of living in an Ivory Tower. They try to interpolate points on a line, and project future numbers, using data that may not be correct. They certainly don't look at models for the game the way gamers do. We look at a new codex and can see the "must have 3 units" and the "why the hell would anyone ever take these" aspects of the models, based on the rules. The Ivory Tower boys base sales projections on past models with different rules. Then get scared of making too much.
If the culture has become so deeply ingrained that the head of sales in one of their largest territories cannot turn around to HQ and tell them that their policies aren't working, then he's either utterly incompetent (which, by the sounds of your post, he isn't ) or things are so royally fethed at GW that there isn't really any hope.
Guess why people like Chris Woodward and Ed Spettigue aren't at GW anymore? And many, many other old timers. I know Chris for one was arguing heavily against some of the policies and for the US retailer. There's always hope, and GW has always been a cyclical company. That said, I've never before in 20 years of dealing direct with them felt I had less of a voice, or received less information and support from them. It has absolutely affected my ability to sell their products.
21313
Post by: Vulcan
M4cr0Dutch wrote:Spacemarine paintball. Really
This thread literally makes me feel ill. I can remember when FASA went down and it was a very hurtful experience. I wouldn't wish that on any gaming community, but at the same time, GW needs to wake up to itself.
But when FASA went down a better company took over the product, one that learned from FASA's mistakes. Here's hoping the same thing happens to GW.
15818
Post by: PhantomViper
oni wrote:
The shutdown of production in Memphis is a little concerning, but doesn't really surprise me. I specculate that it's probably (not necessarily the reason) for the better in terms of consistent quality control, especially for Finecast.
GAMES WORKSHOP wrote:
The most important of these changes is that we will be shutting down our US production facility. This is great news
Sorry, couldn't resist!
Pardon my french, but wouldn't this be a great missed opportunity to demo the new Hobbit game that GW is apparently having trouble selling to people?
41944
Post by: Swan-of-War
It's a display of GW's new Ninja Chapter Space Marines
47462
Post by: rigeld2
He's a sales guy. Sales guys give Powerpoints all the time. It's one of the easiest tasks to accomplish like - ever. Unless there were technical difficulties with the venue, it's on them.
28238
Post by: Warboss Gubbinz
I think the company you are thinking of is TSR, not FASA
3486
Post by: Shotgun
I thought it was a ltd ed Bilbo with the Ring.
28238
Post by: Warboss Gubbinz
Some back story of the fall of TSR posted by a "guest" over at the simplygaming forums.
With Wizards of the Coast growing at an explosive rate and beginning to nip at its heels, Williams and TSR began to squeeze the life out of the very market that had supported it. Rather than attempt to grow the marketplace and win in competition, Williams instead tried to banish everybody else from what she apparently viewed as her private domain. Under her management the company began to ruthlessly enforce its own copyrights along with a few it didn't even have (such as a claim that nobody else could use the word "dragon").
It also became incredibly hostile to everyone, especially its fans. As the Internet exploded onto the public consciousness in the early- to mid-90's, Dungeons & Dragons players naturally brought their chosen hobby online. TSR followed them, issuing dozens of cease and desist orders that shut down fan sites. The company even tried to prevent D&D fans from discussing the game in chat rooms and on message boards, earning the derisive nickname: "They Sue Regularly."
The company was hostile to its fans, business partners, and even former associates that didn't have much clout with the company. TSR became infamous for micromanaging its licensing partners, with draconian licensing managers that dictated everything that a licensor could do, from the color of a box to exactly which piece of licensed D&D artwork the licensee would be forced to use. Even Gary Gygax himself wasn't immune. When Gygax created a new RPG system with Game Designer's Workshop called Dangerous Journeys, TSR sued him for copyright infringement. The case was eventually settled when TSR agreed to purchase all rights to the game for a considerable sum of money -- a pyrrhic victory for TSR, as the case cost the company far more than it could afford.
The parallels are really eye opening.
Here's a link to the full story: Link
41944
Post by: Swan-of-War
Wow, that is scary WL Gubbinz.
As a side note - most licensors are very strict as to how their licenses / artwork can be used and most ideas need to go through a long list of approvals / sign-offs. What might seem as draconian to a newcomer is probably just industry standard.
37755
Post by: Harriticus
rigeld2 wrote:He's a sales guy. Sales guys give Powerpoints all the time. It's one of the easiest tasks to accomplish like - ever. Unless there were technical difficulties with the venue, it's on them.
But GW has convinced him that these new-fangled computers are just a passing fad!
67781
Post by: BryllCream
Can anyone point out what specific actions were a result of this "shoddiness"? IT problems happen. Windows ME crashed when it was being premiered to journalists for instance, and they're the biggest software company in the world.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Yes, IT problems happen.
If Windows crashes, reboot it. 5 minutes of downtime.
But the presentation should've been up and ready prior to the event even happening. All that should've happened is the sales guy plugging the projector into his laptop and boom.
7361
Post by: Howard A Treesong
It's not just the poor presentation though, it's that the decided not to take part in the evening session for demonstrating games/products in the evening. You can't blame that on a bad laptop, they just left the table empty.
Although thinking about it, as it came up in conversation this weekend, years ago when GW were publishing novels with Boxtree they were to attend a book even but none of the stock arrived until Sunday night and with no means to return all of it they had to give a lot away. Although it's not the fault of those at the event, they are the ones that look a bit silly. Nice to see that GW hasn't changed in 20 years.
70365
Post by: Gentleman_Jellyfish
BryllCream wrote:Can anyone point out what specific actions were a result of this "shoddiness"? IT problems happen. Windows ME crashed when it was being premiered to journalists for instance, and they're the biggest software company in the world.
You can excuse anything, so how about this. What excuses GW from participating in the demo/discussion after the presentation? What excuses the empty table?
6872
Post by: sourclams
Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:What excuses the empty table?
Maybe he and Assistant #1 left to whittle new Tau models out of blocks of wood, JUST FOR THE INDY RETAILERS.
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote: BryllCream wrote:Can anyone point out what specific actions were a result of this "shoddiness"? IT problems happen. Windows ME crashed when it was being premiered to journalists for instance, and they're the biggest software company in the world.
You can excuse anything, so how about this. What excuses GW from participating in the demo/discussion after the presentation? What excuses the empty table?
They all were outside playing paintball spacemarinez!
70365
Post by: Gentleman_Jellyfish
NAVARRO wrote:They all were outside playing paintball spacemarinez!
sourclams wrote:Maybe he and Assistant #1 left to whittle new Tau models out of blocks of wood, JUST FOR THE INDY RETAILERS.
Both of these are less silly than just not doing it altogether
45599
Post by: RatBot
Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote: BryllCream wrote:Can anyone point out what specific actions were a result of this "shoddiness"? IT problems happen. Windows ME crashed when it was being premiered to journalists for instance, and they're the biggest software company in the world.
You can excuse anything, so how about this. What excuses GW from participating in the demo/discussion after the presentation? What excuses the empty table?
Maybe after their poor presentation, they were afraid that all the gathered retailers would be really mean to them (  ), so they took their ball and went home, just like with their Facebook page.
30265
Post by: SoloFalcon1138
That would be a pretty poor showing from a major corporation to just walk out after being hammered by dealers' questions. I am rather disappointed in GW's recent handling of pressure situations.
46570
Post by: nolzur
oni wrote:I think some might be jumping to conclusions here. This show is an isolated incident.
Not really. Talk to some of your local FLGS owners - I have talked to the ones near me, and this type of showing with the evading of questions is basically all that GW has done at any of the trade shows recently (by recently, I am talking within the last year or so).
3806
Post by: Grot 6
BryllCream wrote:Can anyone point out what specific actions were a result of this "shoddiness"? IT problems happen. Windows ME crashed when it was being premiered to journalists for instance, and they're the biggest software company in the world.
Have you read the OP's introductory post?
Thats not a mistake. Thats someone just trying to wing it through a presentation without proper practice, and ducking out at a opportune time. Then to leave a blank table? At a sales meeting?
It went beyond technical difficulties when it went "we can't tell you anything...." then the empty showing.
37036
Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
 Warboss Gubbinz wrote:Some back story of the fall of TSR posted by a "guest" over at the simplygaming forums.
With Wizards of the Coast growing at an explosive rate and beginning to nip at its heels, Williams and TSR began to squeeze the life out of the very market that had supported it. Rather than attempt to grow the marketplace and win in competition, Williams instead tried to banish everybody else from what she apparently viewed as her private domain. Under her management the company began to ruthlessly enforce its own copyrights along with a few it didn't even have (such as a claim that nobody else could use the word "dragon").
It also became incredibly hostile to everyone, especially its fans. As the Internet exploded onto the public consciousness in the early- to mid-90's, Dungeons & Dragons players naturally brought their chosen hobby online. TSR followed them, issuing dozens of cease and desist orders that shut down fan sites. The company even tried to prevent D&D fans from discussing the game in chat rooms and on message boards, earning the derisive nickname: "They Sue Regularly."
The company was hostile to its fans, business partners, and even former associates that didn't have much clout with the company. TSR became infamous for micromanaging its licensing partners, with draconian licensing managers that dictated everything that a licensor could do, from the color of a box to exactly which piece of licensed D&D artwork the licensee would be forced to use. Even Gary Gygax himself wasn't immune. When Gygax created a new RPG system with Game Designer's Workshop called Dangerous Journeys, TSR sued him for copyright infringement. The case was eventually settled when TSR agreed to purchase all rights to the game for a considerable sum of money -- a pyrrhic victory for TSR, as the case cost the company far more than it could afford.
The parallels are really eye opening.
Here's a link to the full story: Link
That's just eerie. It's almost like both companies, on finding they were no longer a monopoly, decided if they could crush the industry fast (by hurting independents and driving away fans) they'd kill their competitors and be able to rebuild before taking a big hit...
37470
Post by: tomjoad
Let us hope or pray, then, that GW follows TSR's next series of steps: Going bankrupt and being bought by a decent gaming company that wants to grow and even *gasp* IMPROVE a product.
53375
Post by: hotsauceman1
When they said Space marine paintball, I thought it was going to be paintball in space marine armor
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, lets say, right now GW turtles and someone else buys the license. Before they continue the game, what will happen, will our rulebooks/codexes be rendered invalid until they do something with them?
70365
Post by: Gentleman_Jellyfish
hotsauceman1 wrote:When they said Space marine paintball, I thought it was going to be paintball in space marine armor
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, lets say, right now GW turtles and someone else buys the license. Before they continue the game, what will happen, will our rulebooks/codexes be rendered invalid until they do something with them?
Other than play at GW stores, nothing you do with that codex or rulebook is official. There are no official tournaments, nothing. You will be able to enjoy that rulebook and any rulebook prior as long as it's still readable
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Post by: Laughing Man
In other words, the game will enjoy the same astounding level of support it currently features.
9317
Post by: bigyounk
Screw GW, everyone needs to hop off their bandwagon and realize it is a sinking ship. I say let it sink, heck I actively encourage people to help sink it by redirecting all newcomers at my FLGS away from the GW shelf to other game systems. GW has used up all my good will towards them after nearly 15 years of playing their games, I have wiped my hands of them. It is past time they go away or better yet get sold off to a company that gives a crap about the products they release and the customer base that supports them. Times are tough around the world and I refuse to reward a company with the bushiness model espoused by GW. I will dance a jig when I read that they have gone belly up!
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Post by: Kanluwen
That is the most nonsensical vitriol I've read outside of the Off-Topic section in quite awhile.
Well done, sir.
8620
Post by: DAaddict
I get a front row seat and eventually room fills. GW's boys start by saying they will be doing a powerpoint presentation, show quick effective ways to teach painting, and a quick game play demo called "space marine paintball". At 8:04 GW NA sales director Brandan Bell, says he will take a few questions while they get computer going.[b]
Alright, I used to work in IT, a power point presentation is not rocket science. Assuming:
A. Your computer works.
B. You have tested your presentation in advance.
C. You have a working overhead projector...
Now assuming these 3 things, you should have been delayed a maximum of 5 minutes... At worst - if it is an automated presentation- you can manually click through the screens. To not have any answers for questions and then to follow it up with absolute incompetence leaves the poor presenter in a bad situation. At worst he should have been able to deflect questions by going through his presentation.
26
Post by: carmachu
filbert wrote:I mean ultimately, it is this rep's job to sell GW to FLGS and the bottom line is he is doing a spectacularly bad job at it. Whether that is down to him or because of corporate failings, is open to interpretation but it is a very pertinent point that there seems to be a certain level of discontent amongst independent retailers and GW for whatever reason are failing to address that.
*nods*
Replace GW with ANYTHING else- a car company, TV company, Computer company....Imagine if Apple showed up to a trade show and had a presenation that bad. Or Sony, or Microsoft.
I highly doubt the detractors in this thread would be so understanding or apologetic. GW's JOB there was to sell itself, and as somene that has had 25 years in retail, that was god awful to read.
3933
Post by: Kingsley
Warboss Gubbinz wrote:Some back story of the fall of TSR posted by a "guest" over at the simplygaming forums...
The parallels are really eye opening.
Here's a link to the full story: Link
Am I missing something? GW seems to be avoiding nearly all the pitfalls that article describes, and in fact doing the reverse in several cases. The only real parallel seems to be the copyright enforcement.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
I'll adding sending C&D's to fansites as "copyright enforcement" to my English-to-Kingsley dictionary then shall I? BryllCream wrote:Can anyone point out what specific actions were a result of this "shoddiness"?
None that you'd acknowledge.
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Post by: heartserenade
 Kingsley wrote: Warboss Gubbinz wrote:Some back story of the fall of TSR posted by a "guest" over at the simplygaming forums...
The parallels are really eye opening.
Here's a link to the full story: Link
Am I missing something? GW seems to be avoiding nearly all the pitfalls that article describes, and in fact doing the reverse in several cases. The only real parallel seems to be the copyright enforcement.
Being hostile to fans and the internet, not doing market research, not looking at the big picture and changing its strategy, being hostile to business partners, treating the fan base as social inferiors.
Did I miss something?
Also, I panelled for college thesis presentations for advertising majors. If you didn't check if your presentation works beforehand, most likely you will fail unless you can conduct your presentation without the powerpoint. It's a professionalism thing: if you go in front of your client without being prepared, the client will view it as unprofessional. Making your audience wait is entirely unprofessional: time is the most valuable resource of everyone.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Only that you're talking to the Blue Knight, a man incapable of seeing any flaws in anything GW does.
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Post by: busby
Old Man Ultramarine wrote: Goliath wrote: Old Man Ultramarine wrote:Brandan had an assistant and venue worker on the computer. Never got the screen up.
Other 3 threads do not involve my personal observations. Anyone who was there can confirm what happened.
If there was both an assistant and a venue worker trying to get a single computer working then it makes me think that there might have been a technical issue.
Umm, no! They didn't even have the computer plugged in. It's like they walked in room 3 minutes before I did and held on for dear life. Both admitted to not being technically savy.
Please keep in mind that Brendan Bell is the North American director of sales. He was leading the seminar.
Does not compute! Does not compute!
I have always had a hard time trying to think of modelers as lacking technical savvy.
So, we're always bringing topics like this up. It's a comical situation. Know when I realized that GW started not wanting to be involved with their consumer base? When they took down their God Awful forums instead of just making them better (I hated the format).
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Post by: Azreal13
Kingsley wrote: Warboss Gubbinz wrote:Some back story of the fall of TSR posted by a "guest" over at the simplygaming forums...
The parallels are really eye opening.
Here's a link to the full story: Link
Am I missing something? GW seems to be avoiding nearly all the pitfalls that article describes, and in fact doing the reverse in several cases. The only real parallel seems to be the copyright enforcement.
Really?
Whether you agree with the assertions other posters are making or not, you really couldn't see any parallels with what GW are accused of doing by those posters and what's written in that article?
In my eyes you've just lost the last shred of credibility you had in this debate.
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Post by: Magc8Ball
Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote: hotsauceman1 wrote:Ok, lets say, right now GW turtles and someone else buys the license. Before they continue the game, what will happen, will our rulebooks/codexes be rendered invalid until they do something with them?
You will be able to enjoy that rulebook and any rulebook prior as long as it's still readable
Fully demonstrated by the aforementioned TSR situation: there are still people that collect and play 2nd Edition AD&D. Nobody's going to come and take your books away, and if you don't like the direction the After- GW Company takes the game, you could still keep playing 40K 6th (or 5th or 3rd or Rogue Trader) until the end of time, just as people will still be playing AD&D or 3.5 d20 forever. No game based out of books (or even out of non-DRM'd PDFs) will EVER become "unplayable". There's no central server, as with MMO's, that will go down and keep you from being able to log in.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
Kingsley wrote: Warboss Gubbinz wrote:Some back story of the fall of TSR posted by a "guest" over at the simplygaming forums...
The parallels are really eye opening.
Here's a link to the full story: Link
Am I missing something? GW seems to be avoiding nearly all the pitfalls that article describes, and in fact doing the reverse in several cases. The only real parallel seems to be the copyright enforcement.
Given that the only assets that TSR had in 1995 that were worth anything was its intellectual properties, breaking up the Dungeons & Dragons license was a brilliant, if desperate, move. Now, rather than granting an exclusive license to one company, the company could essentially sell the same license to many different companies. One company could purchase Dark Sun, another could buy Forgotten Realms, and so on.
We have seen, what 9 or 10 licenses issued for what are effectively 2 GW game worlds?
It also became incredibly hostile to everyone, especially its fans. As the Internet exploded onto the public consciousness in the early- to mid-90's, Dungeons & Dragons players naturally brought their chosen hobby online. TSR followed them, issuing dozens of cease and desist orders that shut down fan sites.
Yep - that too.
Rather than attempt to grow the marketplace and win in competition, Williams instead tried to banish everybody else from what she apparently viewed as her private domain.
Shutting down internet retailers from GW's private domain of sales. Attempting to stifle third party bits manufacturers.
That situation couldn't possibly last forever, and it didn't. Serious challengers began to rise, such as West End Games and White Wolf publishing, who were producing fun and successful RPGs that started to bite into the D&D pie.
Substitute WEG and White Wolf with PP and Corvus Belli easily enough...or Wyrd...or any number of other companies who are making inroads on the miniature gaming front.
The rise of video games, particularly popular CRPGs (including the D&D licensed "Gold Box" games), was also siphoning off the core market for D&D.
Swap out CRPGs with RTS and again...same, same.
The biggest threat, though, came from a small, upstart company in Seattle called Wizards of the Coast.
Oh yeah, they are still around and still a threat to anyone who wants to market in geek toys and games - so, consider that to fit as well.
The many settings also contributed to something called "Brand Dilution." The original Dungeons & Dragons brand stood for something. You knew essentially what you were getting when you bought a D&D product. All of these new settings began to play havoc with the rule sets and philosophy of the game. As the settings grew more popular, they began to diverge from one another, advancing along their chosen philosophical paths, essentially becoming their own separate games.
Bit more difficult to see the truth in this one - but most people don't identify with 40K, rather the army they play in 40K (or fantasy for that matter...though it has actually been years since I have met a WFB player - bit like an okapi, I am told they exist...but have no first hand knowledge of them). What that does is it places more emphasis on building a part of the larger brand (Space Marines) over the larger brand itself (Warhammer 40,000). With licensing and what not, these issues of dilution end up being problematic as market research would place the overall brand lower than it might be if the core was emphasized. It still doesn't generally raise the smaller parts to the same level either - so they become less valuable as well.
Years and years of study have gone into this issue - and generally speaking... GW isn't handling it well either.
The company was hostile to its fans, business partners, and even former associates that didn't have much clout with the company. TSR became infamous for micromanaging its licensing partners, with draconian licensing managers that dictated everything that a licensor could do, from the color of a box to exactly which piece of licensed D&D artwork the licensee would be forced to use.
Watch some of the YouTube videos of Alan Merret.
Despite all this, Dungeons & Dragons products continued to sell well, and affection for the game even grew in stature among fans. That was primarily due to the influence of SSI, which had acquired a seven-year license from TSR in 1987, and a host of other hot computer RPGs that "borrowed" elements from D&D.
Swap out SSI for THQ and FFG easily enough.
Nope....nothing the same, nothing at all. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Magc8Ball wrote: Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote: hotsauceman1 wrote:Ok, lets say, right now GW turtles and someone else buys the license. Before they continue the game, what will happen, will our rulebooks/codexes be rendered invalid until they do something with them?
You will be able to enjoy that rulebook and any rulebook prior as long as it's still readable
Fully demonstrated by the aforementioned TSR situation: there are still people that collect and play 2nd Edition AD&D. Nobody's going to come and take your books away, and if you don't like the direction the After- GW Company takes the game, you could still keep playing 40K 6th (or 5th or 3rd or Rogue Trader) until the end of time, just as people will still be playing AD&D or 3.5 d20 forever. No game based out of books (or even out of non-DRM'd PDFs) will EVER become "unplayable". There's no central server, as with MMO's, that will go down and keep you from being able to log in.
You will have to take my THAC0 from my cold dead hands. 
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
Kanluwen wrote:That is the most nonsensical vitriol I've read outside of the Off-Topic section in quite awhile.
Well done, sir.
That's what you call vitriol? What he says about GW is true, and his efforts to help people find better systems and companies should be lauded.
GW is a sinking ship. They saw a 6% growth in profit last year, following a 10+% price hike and the release of a new edition, which emphasized their newest and most disproportionately expensive kits to date, in addition to slashing their expenses across the board. Meanwhile the wargaming industry saw a 20% increase overall. GW is sinking, there can be no question of that. They might not have sunk far, but they're still taking on water with no way to stop it.
Let us all jump ship to the other manufacturers in the industry, the better to insulate the independent retailers against GW's coming collapse.
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Post by: Kingsley
azreal13 wrote:Really?
Whether you agree with the assertions other posters are making or not, you really couldn't see any parallels with what GW are accused of doing by those posters and what's written in that article?
In my eyes you've just lost the last shred of credibility you had in this debate.
In many cases, GW is flat-out doing the reverse of what TSR is described as doing there! The article talks about how TSR created far too many settings and this caused their fanbase to become divided. GW has two settings (three if you count the LotR license), and a lot of people play both, though less so during the current Fantasy slump. It talks about how TSR was extremely strict with licensees-- GW has been expanding its licensing, not tightening it. The similarities between GW and TSR seem surface-level at best, though perhaps there is more going on outside the public eye that might make such a comparison more appropriate?
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Post by: Azreal13
Kingsley wrote: azreal13 wrote:Really?
Whether you agree with the assertions other posters are making or not, you really couldn't see any parallels with what GW are accused of doing by those posters and what's written in that article?
In my eyes you've just lost the last shred of credibility you had in this debate.
In many cases, GW is flat-out doing the reverse of what TSR is described as doing there! The article talks about how TSR created far too many settings and this caused their fanbase to become divided. GW has two settings (three if you count the LotR license), and a lot of people play both, though less so during the current Fantasy slump. It talks about how TSR was extremely strict with licensees-- GW has been expanding its licensing, not tightening it. The similarities between GW and TSR seem surface-level at best, though perhaps there is more going on outside the public eye that might make such a comparison more appropriate?
Wow, talk about seeing what you WANT to see!
Sean O'Brien has already said it better, so I won't tread old ground.
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Post by: insaniak
Yeah, aside from the brand dilution part, you could practically just swap out 'TSR' for 'GW' in that article...
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Post by: JWhex
The thing that seems to be overlooked a lot is that GW appears to have very conciously chosen as its target a younger age group that they want to churn and burn. The things that they are doing that alienate fans and gamers of the much broader age range that inhabit forums are not things that are going to cause problems with the customers it wants to churn and burn.
There is no reason that they could not target the younger gamers to churn and burn while simultaneously targeting an older group but it appears they have chosen not to do so.
Other than complaints about price and the quality of finecast models, one can find a lot of forum posts of people expressing satisfaction with recent GW releases in both whfb and 40k. GW is certainly not a company that is endearing itself to its fans but I suppose it remains to be seen if they really need to. They are not as good as their supporters claim but neither are they as bad as portrayed by their most ardent detractors.
In almost everyone of these threads one or more people chime in that GW is about to sell the company or the release schedule we see now is a run up to sell the company. Do people not realize that GW is a publicly traded company and thus it is "for sale" every day of the week? Even if major stockholders did not plan on "selling the company" hostile take overs are an everyday occurence in the business world.
I am also amused by the people that are offended by the fact that GW apparently is disinterested in the fans. At least you know where you stand with the company as compared to some company that puts up a facade it gives a damn about anything more than the money it can pry out of your wallet.
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Post by: Bullockist
Gw did this at a trade show?
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If you are going to use a "non advertising" advertising strategy then these people at the trade show are your advertising. To put in such a piss poor effort (and here i am mainly thinking about the lack of demo) is cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Giving retailers and distributors a release schedule would be a good thing too, how can your retailers advertise if they don't know what's coming?
These types of things coupled with 1 man stores (which were their advertising before staff cutbacks) are only going to make you less visible as a company. I know there is a theory that "if you build it they will come" which clearly doesn't exist outside of bad baseball movies , there is a reason for marketing...it works.
Oh gw. you're like the bully from primary school who doesn't realise that everyone else has caught up to his height/mass and that situatiuon leaves himnot as the bully but as the friendless fat kid
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Post by: Kingsley
 Sean_OBrien wrote:Given that the only assets that TSR had in 1995 that were worth anything was its intellectual properties, breaking up the Dungeons & Dragons license was a brilliant, if desperate, move. Now, rather than granting an exclusive license to one company, the company could essentially sell the same license to many different companies. One company could purchase Dark Sun, another could buy Forgotten Realms, and so on.
We have seen, what 9 or 10 licenses issued for what are effectively 2 GW game worlds?
The situation with TSR is substantively different from what's going on with GW. Dawn of War 2 and Space Marine are both Warhammer 40,000 games and have the same core universe, thematic elements, and iconography as a base. The situation described in the article involved parceling out different "universes" (like the gothic horror Ravenloft or the desert wasteland Dark Sun) to different companies. The reason this was a bad strategy was twofold:
1. The actual games being made weren't any good. Thus far GW has largely avoided this with its Warhammer 40,000 games.
2. This perpetuated the brand dilution described earlier for TSR, where people were "Ravenloft players" or "Dark Sun players" but not "D&D players" or "TSR players." GW, like it or not, has been very, very successful at creating a lot of " GW players." They are very aware of the risks of diluting their brand or introducing people to other companies, and the term "Games Workshop Hobby" is used for a reason.
Sean_OBrien wrote:It also became incredibly hostile to everyone, especially its fans. As the Internet exploded onto the public consciousness in the early- to mid-90's, Dungeons & Dragons players naturally brought their chosen hobby online. TSR followed them, issuing dozens of cease and desist orders that shut down fan sites.
This has happened to a limited extent. But there are also fans that GW has worked with, fan sites that GW supports, etc.
Sean_OBrien wrote:Rather than attempt to grow the marketplace and win in competition, Williams instead tried to banish everybody else from what she apparently viewed as her private domain.
Shutting down internet retailers from GW's private domain of sales. Attempting to stifle third party bits manufacturers.
Internet retailers have been restrained in the US since 2001 or 2003 and by all accounts this has increased sales. It isn't a new or desperate policy by any means.
Sean_OBrien wrote:That situation couldn't possibly last forever, and it didn't. Serious challengers began to rise, such as West End Games and White Wolf publishing, who were producing fun and successful RPGs that started to bite into the D&D pie.
Substitute WEG and White Wolf with PP and Corvus Belli easily enough...or Wyrd...or any number of other companies who are making inroads on the miniature gaming front.
There is no company currently producing a game with Warhammer 40k or Warhammer Fantasy's number of miniatures on the field at once and level of customizability of one's forces, though Dream Forge might be positioned to potentially do so in the future. The fundamental experience of collecting and playing 40k is fairly different from that of most other miniatures games on the market today, unlike the fundamental experience involved with playing D&D versus other roleplaying games.
Sean_OBrien wrote:The rise of video games, particularly popular CRPGs (including the D&D licensed "Gold Box" games), was also siphoning off the core market for D&D.
Swap out CRPGs with RTS and again...same, same.
RTSes are considered dead in the water as a game genre at present-- there certainly is no "rise of the RTS" going on! Further, turn based strategy games, which are a closer substitute for GW products, are also not being developed particularly strongly-- aside from recent sequels to the XCOM and Civilization series, there has been very little turn-based strategy in the mainstream eye. The current rising star in video games is the MOBA, which is very much not a direct competitor with the tabletop wargaming experience provided by GW and its competitors.
Sean_OBrien wrote:The biggest threat, though, came from a small, upstart company in Seattle called Wizards of the Coast.
Oh yeah, they are still around and still a threat to anyone who wants to market in geek toys and games - so, consider that to fit as well.
You fundamentally misunderstand the way that Wizards relate to TSR if you think that they relate to GW in the same sense.
Sean_OBrien wrote:The many settings also contributed to something called "Brand Dilution." The original Dungeons & Dragons brand stood for something. You knew essentially what you were getting when you bought a D&D product. All of these new settings began to play havoc with the rule sets and philosophy of the game. As the settings grew more popular, they began to diverge from one another, advancing along their chosen philosophical paths, essentially becoming their own separate games.
Bit more difficult to see the truth in this one
Because it isn't there.
Sean_OBrien wrote:but most people don't identify with 40K, rather the army they play in 40K
In my experience this is not remotely the case. I don't consider myself a "Space Marine player" or a "Tau Empire player" or an "Inquisition player," but rather a 40k player. Many people I encounter have multiple armies throughout their time in the hobby and more still have tried many different factions before settling on one.
Sean_OBrien wrote:What that does is it places more emphasis on building a part of the larger brand (Space Marines) over the larger brand itself (Warhammer 40,000). With licensing and what not, these issues of dilution end up being problematic as market research would place the overall brand lower than it might be if the core was emphasized. It still doesn't generally raise the smaller parts to the same level either - so they become less valuable as well.
It's certainly true that Space Marines are emphasized more than some other elements of the background. But that's because of their iconic status-- to many people, Space Marines are 40k. You attempt to turn a strength into a weakness here.
Sean_OBrien wrote:The company was hostile to its fans, business partners, and even former associates that didn't have much clout with the company. TSR became infamous for micromanaging its licensing partners, with draconian licensing managers that dictated everything that a licensor could do, from the color of a box to exactly which piece of licensed D&D artwork the licensee would be forced to use.
Watch some of the YouTube videos of Alan Merret.
I looked at the first one I found and saw a video about Space Marine. In it, Alan Merrett talked about GW's close relationship with licensing partners and how they loved what Relic/THQ did with the setting. Not sure what you're on about?
Sean_OBrien wrote:Despite all this, Dungeons & Dragons products continued to sell well, and affection for the game even grew in stature among fans. That was primarily due to the influence of SSI, which had acquired a seven-year license from TSR in 1987, and a host of other hot computer RPGs that "borrowed" elements from D&D.
Swap out SSI for THQ and FFG easily enough.
Is FFG about to stop producing 40k products? Does the sale of THQ mean that 40k computer games are dead? Those all seem like very stretch assumptions to me.
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Post by: heartserenade
By no means should we allow logic to block our arguments.
There is no company currently producing a game with Warhammer 40k or Warhammer Fantasy's number of miniatures on the field at once and level of customizability of one's forces, though Dream Forge might be positioned to potentially do so in the future.
Because wargaming is only limited to customizability of one's forces and the number of miniatures fielded at once.
Yeah, GW has really no competition within the wargaming scene.
RTSes are considered dead in the water as a game genre at present-- there certainly is no "rise of the RTS" going on!
Oh yes, Starcraft 2's Heart of the Swarm isn't such a huge success and the competitive scene for RTS is not really that good even though they give millions of dollars as cash prizes in tournaments and professional teams play them seriously and they have huge fanbases! RTSes are really dead in the water and a money sink!
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Post by: Azreal13
Kingsley, are you playing devils advocate, living in opposite land or just wilfully ignorant?
I am too tired to dismantle your arguments now, I have no doubt a poster who lives in a different time zone will gleefully do so, but if not, I'll get around to it when I've had some sleep.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
JWhex wrote:The thing that seems to be overlooked a lot is that GW appears to have very conciously chosen as its target a younger age group that they want to churn and burn.
1. Where has that been overlooked?
2. How is it at all relevant to GW’s participation in a trade show? Automatically Appended Next Post: azreal13 wrote:Kingsley, are you ... living in opposite land or just wilfully ignorant?
Why can't it be both?
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Post by: TheAuldGrump
azreal13 wrote:Kingsley, are you playing devils advocate, living in opposite land or just wilfully ignorant?
I am too tired to dismantle your arguments now, I have no doubt a poster who lives in a different time zone will gleefully do so, but if not, I'll get around to it when I've had some sleep.
No, no, leave him alone - he gave me the best laugh that I have had in days!
The Auld Grump
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Post by: Kingsley
 heartserenade wrote:There is no company currently producing a game with Warhammer 40k or Warhammer Fantasy's number of miniatures on the field at once and level of customizability of one's forces, though Dream Forge might be positioned to potentially do so in the future.
Because wargaming is only limited to customizability of one's forces and the number of miniatures fielded at once.
Certainly it isn't. But the Warhammer 40k experience is fundamentally different, from, say the Infinity experience. Smaller skirmish games are very different from a 40k battle with potentially 200+ models to a side. Pen-and-paper RPG experiences are qualitatively much more similar to one another than 40k is to Infinity. My point is not that GW doesn't have competitors-- it clearly does-- but rather that GW's competitors are not as easy to substitute for GW as TSR's competitors were for TSR.
Oh yes, Starcraft 2's Heart of the Swarm isn't such a huge success and the competitive scene for RTS is not really that good even though they give millions of dollars as cash prizes in tournaments and professional teams play them seriously and they have huge fanbases! RTSes are really dead in the water and a money sink!
Starcraft 2 would be successful even if it sucked, so it isn't a good example. RTSes have been unpopular for about a decade with few exceptions. It's possible that they will come back as a popular genre, but even still it's hard to see them on the same level as FPS, RPG, or MOBA games.
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Post by: heartserenade
Kingsley wrote:[
Certainly it isn't. But the Warhammer 40k experience is fundamentally different, from, say the Infinity experience. Smaller skirmish games are very different from a 40k battle with potentially 200+ models to a side.
Vampire: the Masquerade is a different experience from D&D's Greyhawk universe. Eating in Burger King is a different experience from eating in Mcdonald's.
That doesn't mean they're not competitors.
Pen-and-paper RPG experiences are qualitatively much more similar to one another than 40k is to Infinity.
Have YOU played any tabletop RPG's? Setting aside, even the rules have a very different feel to it. Even 4th Ed DnD and 3/3.5 are vastly different: ruleswise 4th plays more like a videogame and 3/3.5 plays like a complicated jumble of customization (both are good in their own rights in my opinion), which offers different playing experiences
Starcraft 2 would be successful even if it sucked, so it isn't a good example.
That's like saying GW will be successful even if it sucked, so it isn't a good example.
Or saying that D&D as a tabletop RPG is unpopular before the early 90s, because all the other tabletop RPGS are unpopular back then.
If an RTS is played by huge number of gamers TODAY, then it is not dead as a genre.
But again, do not let logic bar your way.
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Post by: insaniak
Kingsley wrote:2. This perpetuated the brand dilution described earlier for TSR, where people were "Ravenloft players" or "Dark Sun players" but not "D&D players" or "TSR players." GW, like it or not, has been very, very successful at creating a lot of " GW players."
Really? you don't think it's just as fragmented between 40K players, WHFB players, LOTR players, and all of those who just play Specialist games?
I know some 40K players who also play WHFB or LOTR (less likely to be all 3)... but nobody who would identify themselves as a ' GW player'... The ' GW Hobby' is a term that is bandied about far more by GW and their employees than by the players.
Internet retailers have been restrained in the US since 2001 or 2003 and by all accounts this has increased sales.
Which accounts would those be?
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Post by: Kingsley
heartserenade wrote: Kingsley wrote:[
Certainly it isn't. But the Warhammer 40k experience is fundamentally different, from, say the Infinity experience. Smaller skirmish games are very different from a 40k battle with potentially 200+ models to a side.
Vampire: the Masquerade is a different experience from D&D's Greyhawk universe. Eating in Burger King is a different experience from eating in Mcdonald's.
That doesn't mean they're not competitors.
Yes, but again, Burger King and McDonalds are much more similar than 40k and Infinity.
heartserenade wrote:Pen-and-paper RPG experiences are qualitatively much more similar to one another than 40k is to Infinity.
Have YOU played any tabletop RPG's? Setting aside, even the rules have a very different feel to it. Even 4th Ed DnD and 3/3.5 are vastly different: ruleswise 4th plays more like a videogame and 3/3.5 plays like a complicated jumble of customization (both are good in their own rights in my opinion), which offers different playing experiences
I've played three different editions of D&D, Paranoia, GI, Dark Heresy, Deathwatch, and Eclipse Phase. All of those games are far more similar to one another than 40k is to Infinity, and they comprise a huge range of settings, rules, and encouraged styles of play. I'm not talking about rules or settings but the fundamental elements of gameplay.
If an RTS is played by huge number of gamers TODAY, then it is not dead as a genre.
But again, do not let logic bar your way.
I am not exactly professing an unusual minority opinion here.
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Post by: Warboss Gubbinz
I'm grateful some people read the article and have Exalted Sean for his on point analysis but... Kingsley are you just trolling at this point?
I'm coming to this conclusion after having played in this hobby for 16 years. Granted I don't have the lauded post history but, building winning club tables for NA Gamesday, building relationships with GW staff that have come and gone from the company, talking to multiple store owners. How can i not come to the conclusion that GW is a slowly sinking ship?
If i wanted to sum up my response to everything you have said "Citation needed" would be my canned response.
Here's a question you can answer:
If FFG or any other publisher did not have the license for the 40k RPG would GW be Less popular? more popular? or no difference?
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Post by: Kingsley
 insaniak wrote:I know some 40K players who also play WHFB or LOTR (less likely to be all 3)... but nobody who would identify themselves as a ' GW player'... The ' GW Hobby' is a term that is bandied about far more by GW and their employees than by the players.
Very few would call themselves " GW players." Very many would be " GW players." "The GW Hobby" is a piece of marketing-speak that is often lampooned, but GW has been successful in creating a lot of people who see tabletop wargaming as just that-- the GW hobby. Automatically Appended Next Post: Warboss Gubbinz wrote:I'm grateful some people read the article and have Exalted Sean for his on point analysis but... Kingsley are you just trolling at this point?
Nope. Dakka (or at least Dakka Discussions) is just that far gone. Having an opinion other than " GW sucks" looks like trolling here because of the extent to which the forum culture has embraced hating GW.
Warboss Gubbinz wrote:I'm coming to this conclusion after having played in this hobby for 16 years. Granted I don't have the lauded post history but, building winning club tables for NA Gamesday, building relationships with GW staff that have come and gone from the company, talking to multiple store owners. How can i not come to the conclusion that GW is a slowly sinking ship?
Well, I've been in the hobby (the tabletop wargaming hobby, NOT the " GW hobby"-- for several years I was playing only non- GW games) for 15 years myself, and it just so happens that through my experiences I've drawn a different conclusion. That's fine, there's nothing wrong with disagreeing-- but saying that I'm trolling because I have a different conclusion to you isn't the way to go.
Warboss Gubbinz wrote:If i wanted to sum up my response to everything you have said "Citation needed" would be my canned response.
That's my response to you as well, sadly. I've provided arguments for why GW isn't as degenerate as people think. Instead of engaging with my arguments or providing evidence, you're implying that I'm a troll.
Warboss Gubbinz wrote:Here's a question you can answer:
If FFG or any other publisher did not have the license for the 40k RPG would GW be Less popular? more popular? or no difference?
I suspect 40k would be less popular without the RPG tie-ins, though I'm not sure by how much.
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Post by: Jehan-reznor
Kingsley wrote:
Yes, but again, Burger King and McDonalds are much more similar than 40k and Infinity..
Woaw, you really speaking from a different dimension, that is like saying that mercedes and BMW are not competitors because they are not similar cars.
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Post by: Kingsley
 Jehan-reznor wrote: Kingsley wrote:
Yes, but again, Burger King and McDonalds are much more similar than 40k and Infinity..
Woaw, you really speaking from a different dimension, that is like saying that mercedes and BMW are not competitors because they are not similar cars.
That's not what I said. I said that Burger King and McDonalds are competitors, and more direct competitors than 40k and Infinity.
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Post by: heartserenade
Yes, but again, Burger King and McDonalds are much more similar than 40k and Infinity.
KFC, then? They sell mostly chicken, and yet still McDonald's competitor. Or any other fast food, for that matter.
I've played three different editions of D&D, Paranoia, GI, Dark Heresy, Deathwatch, and Eclipse Phase. All of those games are far more similar to one another than 40k is to Infinity, and they comprise a huge range of settings, rules, and encouraged styles of play. I'm not talking about rules or settings but the fundamental elements of gameplay.
Rules and setting aren't fundamental elements of gameplay?
What are the fundamental elements of gameplay in wargaming? Miniatures, terrain, a board, game rules and usually dice. Warmahordes, Malifaux, Infinity and all the others have those, too.
So what exactly constitutes a "fundamental element" of gameplay? Number of models? Surely number of models can't trump, say... having miniatures or terrain or board or rules as a fundamental element, right?
So going by that logic, when D&D hit the market, it's not popular because it's the only tabletop RPG everyone knows?
Going by that logic, that also applies to GW during the 90s. Was wargaming was considered "dead" back then because GW is the only game in town? How is that different from Starcraft 2 being the only RTS being played today (albeit being played by a horde of players)?
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Nope. Dakka (or at least Dakka Discussions) is just that far gone. Having an opinion other than "GW sucks" looks like trolling here because of the extent to which the forum culture has embraced hating GW.
Nope. It's more of having stupid opinions that gets people, really.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Trying to pass off those that disagree with your points as 'GW haters' or, worse, trying to paint the forum with a big ol' "If you don't hate GW then you don't belong" brush just stinks of someone incapable of backing up their statements.
The fact that so many people gawk at the stuff you're posting Kingsley seems to indicate your detachment from reality.
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Post by: Warboss Gubbinz
So, trying to understand this properly, Kingsley, what is your vew of GW? how are they helping the "hobby" per say.
You said you couldn't see any parallels with TSR. TSR tried to enforce copyright over the word "Dragon"
Games Workshop, you may recall claimed trademark infringement on the word Space Marine. Link
How are these not similar?
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Post by: insaniak
Kingsley wrote:Very few would call themselves " GW players." Very many would be " GW players."
Fewer than once might have been, I suspect.
That sort of brand loyalty was much bigger back in the '90s, when we had the 40K crowd versus the Warzone crowd. These days? Not so much. GW have done too much to destroy the goodwill that they fostered back then.
The ' GW Hobby' marketspeak is exactly that. Nothing more.
Nope. Dakka (or at least Dakka Discussions) is just that far gone. Having an opinion other than "GW sucks" looks like trolling here because of the extent to which the forum culture has embraced hating GW.
It's really easy to just dismiss all of the 'haterz' as just doing it to be fashionable and ignore the underlying reasons for it.
My current contempt for GW has nothing to do with being one of the crowd. I've spent time on both sides of the fence, and my current distaste for GW and their business practices is something that they have earned through their own actions, not through any hivemind feeling on these or any other boards.
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Post by: Kingsley
heartserenade wrote:
Yes, but again, Burger King and McDonalds are much more similar than 40k and Infinity.
KFC, then? They sell mostly chicken, and yet still McDonald's competitor. Or any other fast food, for that matter.
The fundamentals of going to KFC or McDonalds (or indeed any fast food restaurant) are more similar than 40k is to Infinity.
heartserenade wrote:Rules and setting aren't fundamental elements of gameplay?
What are the fundamental elements of gameplay in wargaming? Miniatures, terrain, a board, game rules and usually dice. Warmahordes, Malifaux, Infinity and all the others have those, too.
The fundamental elements of gameplay are what you do when you play the game. For all those RPGs, you sit down with some character sheets and a DM and you take turns telling a story, with the DM guiding the situation and the players reacting. Dice are then rolled to determine how different planned actions influence the game world, and play continues from there.
heartserenade wrote:So what exactly constitutes a "fundamental element" of gameplay? Number of models? Surely number of models can't trump, say... having miniatures or terrain or board or rules as a fundamental element, right?
The key difference is that GW stresses customization, modeling, conversions, and making your army your own to a much higher degree than other manufacturers. To put it another way, a lot of companies sell games and models. GW sells the entire hobby experience, and does so to an extent that is not seen with its competitors. One critical strength that helps GW with this approach is their multi-part plastic kits, which until recently have been very difficult for rivals to compete with. Dreamforge Games is coming close, and Defiance Games would probably be there already if not for their logistical issues, but until that is cleared serious competition with GW will be very difficult.
heartserenade wrote:So going by that logic, when D&D hit the market, it's not popular because it's the only tabletop RPG everyone knows?
No, but tabletop RPGs weren't exactly a strong genre on the basis of D&D alone, just as RTS isn't a strong genre on the basis of Starcraft alone. There are some somewhat promising projects-- Planetary Annihilation and Company of Heroes 2, for instance-- but by and large the glory days of RTS look to be over. At the very least, the genre is in a slump.
This is what I mean when I say this forum is biased, The very idea that GW could be not all that bad is considered "stupid."
HBMC wrote:Trying to pass off those that disagree with your points as 'GW haters' or, worse, trying to paint the forum with a big ol' "If you don't hate GW then you don't belong" brush just stinks of someone incapable of backing up their statements.
On the contrary, I'm the one posting arguments as to why various comparisons to GW aren't valid, while others in the thread insult me and call me a troll.
HBMC wrote:The fact that so many people gawk at the stuff you're posting Kingsley seems to indicate your detachment from reality.
Only the consensus reality prevalent here on Dakka Discussions.
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
Kingsley wrote: insaniak wrote:I know some 40K players who also play WHFB or LOTR (less likely to be all 3)... but nobody who would identify themselves as a ' GW player'... The ' GW Hobby' is a term that is bandied about far more by GW and their employees than by the players.
Very few would call themselves " GW players." Very many would be " GW players." "The GW Hobby" is a piece of marketing-speak that is often lampooned, but GW has been successful in creating a lot of people who see tabletop wargaming as just that-- the GW hobby.
Unless their only experience is at a GW store (which, since those are no longer even gaming environments, will be exactly no one soon), this is entirely false. Even if someone's preferred game is one of the warhammers they're still going to be aware of the many alternatives to GW.
Warboss Gubbinz wrote:I'm grateful some people read the article and have Exalted Sean for his on point analysis but... Kingsley are you just trolling at this point?
Nope. Dakka (or at least Dakka Discussions) is just that far gone. Having an opinion other than " GW sucks" looks like trolling here because of the extent to which the forum culture has embraced hating GW.
It's because everything you say is entirely false, or is such a tenuous twisting of truth as to effectively be false. For instance: GW's prices haven't improved because some kits have switched to plastic (let's look at the plastic kits, shall we? In the past two years, some plastic kits have increased in price by nearly 50% (and codices have outright doubled)), and inflation (which they've outpaced several times over) applies to necessities, inconsistently, and almost never luxury goods, which trend towards decreasing in price on account of improved manufacturing or superior competition. GW has slashed their expenses, and is facing competitors providing vastly superior sculpts at either modestly higher prices (if comparing GW plastics, since the competitors tend to be metal) or radically lower prices (if comparing GW's finecast rubbish). Their prices should be decreasing. Instead, only their sales decrease, with the drop in profit concealed by slashing expenses and jacking up prices.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
insaniak wrote:
Internet retailers have been restrained in the US since 2001 or 2003 and by all accounts this has increased sales.
Which accounts would those be?
Obviously that North American Sales skyrocketed after the 2003 ( GW FY2004) internet ban went in place...wait...nope, that didn't happen:
2001 - 31,539,000
2002 - 32,791,000 (launch of LotR game)
2003 - 32,218,000
2004 - 33,110,000 (US Internet shopping cart ban and GW global sales high point)
2005 - 29,624,000 (with the ginormous price hike)
2006 - 27,766,000
2007 - 25,534,000
2008 - 26,844,000
2009 - 29,904,000
2010 - 31,270,000
2011 - 30,250,000
2012 - 33,621,000
All in pounds of course...but, the evidence clearly shows that the internet ban has been excellent for growing sales in the US...oh, my bad again...it didn't instill growth at all.
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Post by: Morachi
If I facepalm much more, i'm not going to have a face left. I think we need a forum just for GW defenders. You know, the ones who see a mirage of GW Care Bears and insist they're real.
Nice sales figures there Sean, I wonder just how much of the latest figures are comprised of profit margin modifications - aka sacking staff etc.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Well that's easy to see when you compare the rising revenue to the falling sales. The difference is being made up in higher prices, cost cutting (1-man stores/closing stores) and selling out as many video game licenses as humanly possible.
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Post by: heartserenade
Kingsley wrote:
The fundamental elements of gameplay are what you do when you play the game.
I roll dice, push some models around and make tactical decisions and army lists when playing skirmish games. Not different from 40k, yes?
The key difference is that GW stresses customization, modeling, conversions, and making your army your own to a much higher degree than other manufacturers.
And Burger King sells mostly burgers while KFC sells mostly chicken. NEWSFLASH: burgers and chickens are vastly different. They're not even made of the same meat. Unless it's a chicken burger.
You can't convert your own army and make it your own with other games, or customize them? WHAT GAMES HAVE I BEEN PLAYING? The most basic of differences between 40k games and skirmish games is the number of models.
Number of models don't change the fact that I roll dice on some board with terrain and push miniatures around while making tactical decisions and army lists.
No, but tabletop RPGs weren't exactly a strong genre on the basis of D&D alone, just as RTS isn't a strong genre on the basis of Starcraft alone.
Notice i said when D&D is the only game in town?
Can you please explain that logic with regards to GW being the only game in town back then, thus by your logic it would be considered "dead"?
This is what I mean when I say this forum is biased, The very idea that GW could be not all that bad is considered "stupid."
No, being stupid is considered "stupid". Trying to defend a position while cherry-picking evidence (or not using evidence at all) is "stupid". Shoving opinion as facts is "stupid".
On the contrary, I'm the one posting arguments as to why various comparisons to GW aren't valid, while others in the thread insult me and call me a troll.
Trust me, it's not because you "back" your arguments, it's because your cherry-picked evidence sucks.
HBMC wrote:The fact that so many people gawk at the stuff you're posting Kingsley seems to indicate your detachment from reality.
Only the consensus reality prevalent here on Dakka Discussions.
In the reality I live in, GW pirces are going down, not up.
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Post by: Kingsley
Sean_OBrien wrote: insaniak wrote:
Internet retailers have been restrained in the US since 2001 or 2003 and by all accounts this has increased sales.
Which accounts would those be?
Obviously that North American Sales skyrocketed after the 2003 ( GW FY2004) internet ban went in place...wait...nope, that didn't happen:
2001 - 31,539,000
2002 - 32,791,000 (launch of LotR game)
2003 - 32,218,000
2004 - 33,110,000 (US Internet shopping cart ban and GW global sales high point)
2005 - 29,624,000 (with the ginormous price hike)
2006 - 27,766,000
2007 - 25,534,000
2008 - 26,844,000
2009 - 29,904,000
2010 - 31,270,000
2011 - 30,250,000
2012 - 33,621,000
All in pounds of course...but, the evidence clearly shows that the internet ban has been excellent for growing sales in the US...oh, my bad again...it didn't instill growth at all.
It seems pretty clear that other elements (like the LotR boom and bust) are more important there than the Internet sales ban. GW claims the Internet sales ban and the much later rumor embargo have both increased overall sales. One might question why they are expanding these policies if they do not.
heartserenade wrote:words words words
It's pretty clear our perspectives on wargaming differ greatly, and I don't think that talking to you in this thread is productive anymore, so I'm going to stop replying.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
Yes, which would be why the 2001 number (prior to the release of the LotR game) is higher than every year outside of the LotR period except for last year...
GW is very good at spinning things as "good things" - very rarely are they telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
11 years of possible growth in one of the largest consumer economies in the world and they manage to do absolutely nothing to their top end sales figure. During that time, prices have gone up on average 40% on an army build...and no change at all. So, does it make sense that what GW says about good for sales would be true? Nah...that would be crazy talk.
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Post by: AllSeeingSkink
Kingsley wrote:GW claims the Internet sales ban and the much later rumor embargo have both increased overall sales. One might question why they are expanding these policies if they do not.
If that's what GW claim, the numbers Sean posted disagree with that. It took 7 years after the shopping cart ban and the price hike to get back to the level they were at pre- LOTR boom. Even before the global financial crisis they had dropped below the pre- LOTR boom values.
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Post by: heartserenade
Kingsley wrote:
heartserenade wrote:words words words
It's pretty clear our perspectives on wargaming differ greatly, and I don't think that talking to you in this thread is productive anymore, so I'm going to stop replying.
That, or I make sense while you... don't.
It's not a matter of perspective. If you can't refute what I said, it's better to say that instead of claim "nah, our perspectives are just different."
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Post by: Kingsley
heartserenade wrote:It's not a matter of perspective. If you can't refute what I said, it's better to say that instead of claim "nah, our perspectives are just different."
I don't think you're making real arguments or trying to understand my points and you're being too insulting for me to want to interact with you. What I said was an attempt to say that politely.
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Post by: heartserenade
Kingsley wrote: heartserenade wrote:It's not a matter of perspective. If you can't refute what I said, it's better to say that instead of claim "nah, our perspectives are just different."
I don't think you're making real arguments or trying to understand my points and you're being too insulting for me to want to interact with you. What I said was an attempt to say that politely.
I don't think you're making real arguments either because your arguments are insulting to people who think.
I tried understanding your points. They don't make sense.
Now I'm not saying that you're a stupid person. What I'm saying is that your arguments are stupid. I'm not trying to be insulting, I'm simply stating that fact, and many posters in this thread will agree.
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Post by: Adam LongWalker
@ Sir Pseudonymous - Yea. I've got the 2011 GW Trade Price changes. It was a nasty increase then and it will be once when the usual June price increase rolls around.
@ Kingsley - Interesting read.
Here's a chart for console gaming.
http://www.vgchartz.com/article/250880/2013-year-on-year-sales-and-market-share-update-to-march-30th/
Another chart for standard console global spikes.
http://www.vgchartz.com/tools/hw_date.php
Click on the all tab to see the cycle of the console hardware sales
Here's one in Time's web site
http://business.time.com/2013/02/11/game-over-why-video-game-console-sales-are-plummeting/
Oh and starcraft 2. Incredibly popular around the world with hundreds of thousands of dollars in prize money every year. I'm rooting for Axiom Acer in the GSTL leagues .
http://www.gomtv.net/
Enjoy.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
It is also important to see how much of a bump the LotR sales gave the US...
From 2001 (before LotR) - they were at 31.5 million pounds. At the height of the "LotR bubble" they were at 33.1 million pounds. That is a change of around 5%. Normally that would not qualify as being bubble worthy. Europe saw a greater rise than the US did on LotR sales...but we are not talking about Europe or GW's global sales - just the North American segment and the US in particular (as it relates to the internet ban being "a good thing").
The drop that followed the "LotR bubble" (which I think was largely a myth...at least in the US - I don't recall seeing or hearing of a game of that ever being played even during the high point of the movies) happens to coincide with the ban and the first big price hike.
The price hike in 2005 was roughly 15% on an army build. And their sales figures plummeted. 2006 was another hike of 7% and the sales dropped some more. 2007 and 2008 prices stabilized for a bit - and sales flattened out.
Nah...GW said it is all a good thing, so it must be true.
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Post by: insaniak
Kingsley wrote:It seems pretty clear that other elements (like the LotR boom and bust) are more important there than the Internet sales ban. GW claims the Internet sales ban and the much later rumor embargo have both increased overall sales.
Yes, they keep claiming these things... but the sales figures don't appear to back them up.
One might question why they are expanding these policies if they do not.
One could postulate that it's because big businesses are incredibly political creatures, and if someone high up the food chain has an idea that these newfangled interwebs are bad for their chosen business model, those underneath who have the thankless job of making everything actually work just have to make the best of it.
I was a fill-in manaager for Kmart here in Oz around the turn of the century. We had a wage-costing system that applied specific time increments to every conceivable task that our staff had to do throughout their shifts, which we could supposedly use to build effective rosters. This had been the brainchild of someone with a degree at head office who had never worked a day in his life on a sales floor, and it simply didn't work... but nobody could say so, and whenever we had a 'surprise'* visit from head office staff, we had to get extra staff in (with those hours carefully hidden in that weeks' rostering) to get the store back into some semblence of order so that it would appear that everything was trundling along as expected.
* 'Surprise' visits were preceded by at least 24 hours notice, so that head office didn't run the risk of turning up before the store had been made ready, so that everyone on both sides of the fence could keep up the illusion that everything was fine.
This is, as should be painfully apparent, an absolutely insane way to run a business. But it's how big business works. Things happen not because they are the best thing that should happen. They happen because someone who is currently in favour with the boss (or the boss himself) had a clever idea.
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Post by: Kingsley
Not sure I see the relevance of that information. I am fully aware of Starcraft II's eSports popularity, but even still the RTS genre is not considered particularly vibrant.
Sean_OBrien wrote:It is also important to see how much of a bump the LotR sales gave the US...
From 2001 (before LotR) - they were at 31.5 million pounds. At the height of the "LotR bubble" they were at 33.1 million pounds. That is a change of around 5%. Normally that would not qualify as being bubble worthy. Europe saw a greater rise than the US did on LotR sales...but we are not talking about Europe or GW's global sales - just the North American segment and the US in particular (as it relates to the internet ban being "a good thing").
The drop that followed the "LotR bubble" (which I think was largely a myth...at least in the US - I don't recall seeing or hearing of a game of that ever being played even during the high point of the movies) happens to coincide with the ban and the first big price hike.
The price hike in 2005 was roughly 15% on an army build. And their sales figures plummeted. 2006 was another hike of 7% and the sales dropped some more. 2007 and 2008 prices stabilized for a bit - and sales flattened out.
Nah...GW said it is all a good thing, so it must be true.
The problem with the LotR bubble is that it took sales away from other GW products, and many of those sales did not return when it was over. Thus, the actual growth was limited (though from what I hear substantially bigger in Europe), but the long-term consequences were negative. I actually expected to quit 40k in 3 years, expecting a similar boom and bust cycle with The Hobbit, but luckily it does not appear to have caught on to the same extent and hopefully will not cause a similar crash.
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Post by: heartserenade
Kingsley wrote:
Not sure I see the relevance of that information. I am fully aware of Starcraft II's eSports popularity, but even still the RTS genre is not considered particularly vibrant.
But it's not particularly dead.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
The problem with the LotR bubble is that it took sales away from other GW products, and many of those sales did not return when it was over.
Did it? In the US specifically. Like I said, I don't recall seeing or hearing from any of the people who I know around the US of games being played either in stores or at private venues (homes or clubs). I know a few people who bought them - but they bought them for the figures not for the GW game and they were not GW customers at all to begin with. The store owners, distributors and others on the inside of the industry have shared similar perspectives. Articles in trade magazines also support this position.
The LotR was not a rain maker in the US for GW.
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Post by: Kingsley
Sean_OBrien wrote:The problem with the LotR bubble is that it took sales away from other GW products, and many of those sales did not return when it was over.
Did it? In the US specifically. Like I said, I don't recall seeing or hearing from any of the people who I know around the US of games being played either in stores or at private venues (homes or clubs). I know a few people who bought them - but they bought them for the figures not for the GW game and they were not GW customers at all to begin with. The store owners, distributors and others on the inside of the industry have shared similar perspectives. Articles in trade magazines also support this position.
The LotR was not a rain maker in the US for GW.
I know several people in the US who played LotR. Some of them switched from 40k to LotR-- and when LotR died down, they didn't pick up 40k again. GW put a lot of effort into promoting LotR in the US, but much of that took away from 40k and Fantasy (what with the two-sided White Dwarf issues, some GW stores having half their space for LotR purposes, etc.), and LotR proved to be short-term.
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Post by: insaniak
Kingsley wrote:The problem with the LotR bubble is that it took sales away from other GW products, and many of those sales did not return when it was over.
The reason the LotR bubble was called a bubble was because it was a big extra blob of sales on top of the normal sales. That took nothing away from other GW products... they were additional sales, and a large number of them were to people who don't play GW's other games or come from GW's normal audience, which is why so many 40K or WHFB players claim to have never seen anyone play the game.
The growth from it was temporary, and if the long term consequences were negative it was because large chunks of GW's core fanbase felt a little neglected by the end of it rather than because they had been spending their cash on LotR and just didn't know what to do with their cash when it went away.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
Kingsley wrote: Sean_OBrien wrote:The problem with the LotR bubble is that it took sales away from other GW products, and many of those sales did not return when it was over.
Did it? In the US specifically. Like I said, I don't recall seeing or hearing from any of the people who I know around the US of games being played either in stores or at private venues (homes or clubs). I know a few people who bought them - but they bought them for the figures not for the GW game and they were not GW customers at all to begin with. The store owners, distributors and others on the inside of the industry have shared similar perspectives. Articles in trade magazines also support this position.
The LotR was not a rain maker in the US for GW.
I know several people in the US who played LotR. Some of them switched from 40k to LotR-- and when LotR died down, they didn't pick up 40k again. GW put a lot of effort into promoting LotR in the US, but much of that took away from 40k and Fantasy (what with the two-sided White Dwarf issues, some GW stores having half their space for LotR purposes, etc.), and LotR proved to be short-term.
Your perspective is skewed...
If you are attempting to compare anything (especially during the period in question) regarding general gaming versus GW stores... That is like asking someone in who lives in Vatican city how many people they know go to church each Sunday...
In FY2004 - roughly 60% of North American sales were through independent sales. Since each dollar (or pound, or yen, or rupie...) of GW sales through an independent is achieved by selling twice as much stock as selling through GW direct (due to wholesale discounts) that would mean that for each 4 units of a given item that GW sold through GW stores - independent stores would sell 12 units of the same item (give or take an item...but this is simple maths to illustrate). Indpendent stores did not go through and slash their shelf stock to make room for LotR purposes. They didn't cordon off tables for LotR demo games. They didn't plaster the walls, ceilings and windows with signage...that was left to Vatican City...errr... GW stores, where you already have a congregation of true believers.
They also only had 75 GW stores in the entire North American region (21 of which were opened during the 2004 FY). The independent hobby store population has been hovering around 2000 or so stores for the past couple decades (give or take a hundred or so at any given time). 50-75 GW stores, compared to 2000 or so independent stores...the GW stores are a tiny portion of the larger gaming community. There is a comment in one of the reports (either 2003 or 2004...I forget off the top of my head) which also indicates that sales of the LotR through independent retailers remains sluggish in North America.
I am sure it sold. I can guarantee that it was sold to true believers through GW stores - I just don't see anything that supports a claim that that was a significant player on GW sales in the US. They did a lot of bad managing at the same time - and that had a likely larger impact here. In the UK and Europe where you had the TV ads, DeAgostini magazines and the like...sure, bubble...pop...fizzle. That didn't happen here though.
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Post by: Azreal13
Look at you, with your words, proof and evidence. That's no way to conduct a debate!
Spurious examples, anecdotes and opinion are where it's at!
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Post by: M4cr0Dutch
Prior to FASA going belly up, fans went through about 4 years of the cold shoulder treatment. Local stores, like Tin Soldiers and MilSims, had awful trouble getting stock in, with very little explanation given. Shipment of stock was promised over and over again, but the stuff never arrived. We had hardly any internet access at the time, so most players in my area had no idea what was going on.
The old FASA IP was sold to a fan-owned company which has, as far as I know, done a fantastic job. Classic Battletech was released and has been supported by them well.
Somehow, I can't imagine GW being sold at a price that a fan-owned company could afford. We just don't have enough kidneys between us
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Post by: silent25
Sean_OBrien wrote:
I am sure it sold. I can guarantee that it was sold to true believers through GW stores - I just don't see anything that supports a claim that that was a significant player on GW sales in the US. They did a lot of bad managing at the same time - and that had a likely larger impact here. In the UK and Europe where you had the TV ads, DeAgostini magazines and the like...sure, bubble...pop...fizzle. That didn't happen here though.
The LotR sets were for sale in Borders, Barns & Nobles, and other large book store chains in the US. That is exposure outside the normal LGS and GW stores.
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Post by: Herzlos
Kingsley wrote:
Sean_OBrien wrote:It also became incredibly hostile to everyone, especially its fans. As the Internet exploded onto the public consciousness in the early- to mid-90's, Dungeons & Dragons players naturally brought their chosen hobby online. TSR followed them, issuing dozens of cease and desist orders that shut down fan sites.
This has happened to a limited extent. But there are also fans that GW has worked with, fan sites that GW supports, etc.
Name one.
I'm aware of a fan-film that GW tolerates, but I can't think of a single fan activity or site GW has worked without outside it's own stores or GCN.
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Post by: Kroothawk
Let's just say:
Burger King and McDonalds are much more similar than Kingsley's opinion to reality.
BTW: Wow, didn't know that US sales actually went DOWN during the LOTR bubble in the rest of the world.
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Post by: Alkasyn
Kingsley wrote: heartserenade wrote:
Yes, but again, Burger King and McDonalds are much more similar than 40k and Infinity.
KFC, then? They sell mostly chicken, and yet still McDonald's competitor. Or any other fast food, for that matter.
The fundamentals of going to KFC or McDonalds (or indeed any fast food restaurant) are more similar than 40k is to Infinity.
Buy models, paint models, play a game? The fundamentals seem pretty similar.
Sean_OBrien wrote:Yes, which would be why the 2001 number (prior to the release of the LotR game) is higher than every year outside of the LotR period except for last year...
GW is very good at spinning things as "good things" - very rarely are they telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
11 years of possible growth in one of the largest consumer economies in the world and they manage to do absolutely nothing to their top end sales figure. During that time, prices have gone up on average 40% on an army build...and no change at all. So, does it make sense that what GW says about good for sales would be true? Nah...that would be crazy talk.
"We're closing the gaming in the store. That is good news!"
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Post by: heartserenade
 Alkasyn wrote: Kingsley wrote: heartserenade wrote:
Yes, but again, Burger King and McDonalds are much more similar than 40k and Infinity.
KFC, then? They sell mostly chicken, and yet still McDonald's competitor. Or any other fast food, for that matter.
The fundamentals of going to KFC or McDonalds (or indeed any fast food restaurant) are more similar than 40k is to Infinity.
Buy models, paint models, play a game? The fundamentals seem pretty similar.
Apparently not too similar for him for other games to be considered as GW's competition, it seems.
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Post by: Kingsley
Herzlos wrote: Kingsley wrote:
Sean_OBrien wrote:It also became incredibly hostile to everyone, especially its fans. As the Internet exploded onto the public consciousness in the early- to mid-90's, Dungeons & Dragons players naturally brought their chosen hobby online. TSR followed them, issuing dozens of cease and desist orders that shut down fan sites.
This has happened to a limited extent. But there are also fans that GW has worked with, fan sites that GW supports, etc.
Name one.
I'm aware of a fan-film that GW tolerates, but I can't think of a single fan activity or site GW has worked without outside it's own stores or GCN.
GW constantly promotes cool stuff from its fans, features their work in its publications, etc.
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Post by: Herzlos
Kingsley wrote:Herzlos wrote: Kingsley wrote:
Sean_OBrien wrote:It also became incredibly hostile to everyone, especially its fans. As the Internet exploded onto the public consciousness in the early- to mid-90's, Dungeons & Dragons players naturally brought their chosen hobby online. TSR followed them, issuing dozens of cease and desist orders that shut down fan sites.
This has happened to a limited extent. But there are also fans that GW has worked with, fan sites that GW supports, etc.
Name one.
I'm aware of a fan-film that GW tolerates, but I can't think of a single fan activity or site GW has worked without outside it's own stores or GCN.
GW constantly promotes cool stuff from its fans, features their work in its publications, etc.
Oh you mean when they take stuff from fans and use it as free content on their blog or magazine? That's not the same thing.
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Post by: jonolikespie
Herzlos wrote: Kingsley wrote:Herzlos wrote: Kingsley wrote:
Sean_OBrien wrote:It also became incredibly hostile to everyone, especially its fans. As the Internet exploded onto the public consciousness in the early- to mid-90's, Dungeons & Dragons players naturally brought their chosen hobby online. TSR followed them, issuing dozens of cease and desist orders that shut down fan sites.
This has happened to a limited extent. But there are also fans that GW has worked with, fan sites that GW supports, etc.
Name one.
I'm aware of a fan-film that GW tolerates, but I can't think of a single fan activity or site GW has worked without outside it's own stores or GCN.
GW constantly promotes cool stuff from its fans, features their work in its publications, etc.
Oh you mean when they take stuff from fans and use it as free content on their blog or magazine? That's not the same thing.
Exactly, I've seen plenty of "Timmy here has painted his brand new GW Riptide( tm) blue" but absolutely no "Jimmy over at [blog name here] has converted and painted this, go check out his blog to see more". There is a difference between working with fan sites and asking fans to send in pics to use in your own blog/magazine.
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Post by: Morachi
The last time I can remember when a fan's army was used in a White Dwarf Battle report was back at the beginning of 3rd edition. Blood Angels versus Eldar I believe.
Try modding your own miniatures and walking into a GW store, you will be promptly told you can't play with anything that isn't kitbashed using 100% GW product. They see themselves as the hobby, and the ONLY hobby.
I was told by the lad at the Brisbane Chermside store that if you wandered in with Balrog wings on a Daemon Prince or Hive Tyrant you were asked to leave. Now where is that fan/community support?
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Post by: Kilkrazy
We are getting off the topic here. Complaints about GW shop game policies are better off discussed in the thread on "Has it always been this bad?"
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Post by: insaniak
The balrog wing thing was nothing to do with community support. Back when LotR was a thing, GW's licence forbade them from mixing it with their other games. So there were rules for a while about mixing components from between the games. They started out not allowing them at all in official events, but eventually relaxed it to not showing photos of such models. Some store staff got a little confused about it though, with the occasional one going so far as to claim that mixing parts from the different ranges was illegal...
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Post by: Kingsley
A lot of people seem to have misunderstood the Burger King vs. McDonalds comparison-- perhaps intentionally so. What I'm saying is this: The fundamental experience of collecting and playing 40k or WHFB is different to the experience of collecting and playing most other miniatures games on the market right now. I say this as someone who has collected and played many miniatures games, both GW and non- GW.
In 40k, you collect an army and are encouraged to "make it your own" with conversions, unique paint schemes, etc. You then fight against another army in a large-scale conflict involving multiple units, vehicles, etc. on both sides. The end result is a large battle between two individually customized forces-- this result is what is largely unique to 40k/ WHFB. Other games in a similar space involve much less customization-- many, like Infinity, do not even have plastic models, which are key to allowing individual creativity on a whole-army level.
There is no game at present that encourages you to customize a large force in the same way that 40k and Fantasy do. While other games like Warmahordes, Infinity, and Malifaux can superficially be considered direct competitors with GW, in point of fact that is not the case-- the core experience of collecting and playing those games is fundamentally different from the core experience of collecting and playing 40k. I've seen postings for Warmahordes tournaments that don't allow conversions-- that would never fly for 40k.
GW has done a very good job of marketing "the Games Workshop hobby" as a complete experience. Now, they don't have a monopoly on it-- I remember playing Ætherverse back in the day and loving how it was even more of a customizable hobby experience than what GW had to offer-- but right now most of their competitors have not really been seriously challenging them on that front. For this reason, 40k and Fantasy seem to exist in a different "subgenre" of tabletop game, and one that, for better or for worse, GW owns at present.
 Morachi wrote:I was told by the lad at the Brisbane Chermside store that if you wandered in with Balrog wings on a Daemon Prince or Hive Tyrant you were asked to leave. Now where is that fan/community support?
That was thanks to a licensing agreement that forbade mixing of Lord of the Rings and Warhammer/Warhammer 40k content. It was out of GW's hands.
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Post by: DAaddict
The hard part of analyzing the effect of LoTR effect on the base GW product is the slowing down - sometimes it seems- to a snail pace the release of new content to their core products...
So while the Two Towers was released and bought, how many people just got fed up and dumped 40k because they got sick of waiting for the Dark Eldar codex release or some new models for their favorite army?
No matter what, there is limited game development, modeling staff and production facilities available. If you dedicate your staff to LotR, you are taking away time that could have been spent on 40K or Fantasy. That is a hidden effect that is hard to define. The fact is that LotR and now the Hobbit, are short-lived products that may appeal to a larger sum than the normal GW consumer so they may see a limited spike in sales. The problem is if someone does not continue to buy a LotR Rohan force or another Mordor army, they will fail to make the longer impact.
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Post by: heartserenade
Kingsley wrote:A lot of people seem to have misunderstood the Burger King vs. McDonalds comparison-- perhaps intentionally so. What I'm saying is this: The fundamental experience of collecting and playing 40k or WHFB is different to the experience of collecting and playing most other miniatures games on the market right now. I say this as someone who has collected and played many miniatures games, both GW and non- GW.
And the fundamental difference of KFC and Mcdonald's is that KFC is more focused on selling fried chicken while McDonald's is more on burgers and fries. In the end you still eat them.
No one is misunderstanding your point: it's just that it's entirely absurd that you get stuck up with this segment of difference in wargames (level of customization, which is also absurd because you can still customize other games's miniatures and call it your own), and yet won't acknowledge the difference in others (mechanical and setting difference in different tabletop RPGS, different kinds of food). It's very hypocritical.
Note to everyone else: Kingsley apparently has me on ignore. My replies to his replies are for the others who read this thread.
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Post by: Herzlos
Kingsley wrote:
In 40k, you collect an army and are encouraged to "make it your own" with conversions, unique paint schemes, etc. You then fight against another army in a large-scale conflict involving multiple units, vehicles, etc. on both sides. The end result is a large battle between two individually customized forces-- this result is what is largely unique to 40k/ WHFB. Other games in a similar space involve much less customization-- many, like Infinity, do not even have plastic models, which are key to allowing individual creativity on a whole-army level.
I can only think of 2 situations were customization isn't encouraged, and that's warmachine (because it's important to be able to identify characters) and historics (where accuracy is regarded as important).
Conversion with everything else is generally accepted, though you're right in that most ranges are metal and conversion is harder.
It's also worth noting that the only conversion GW encourages is kitbashing; taking parts from another kit and using them instead, within a small realm of what's allowed (it has to be WYSIWYG and match the codex). 3rd party bits or custom sculpts are frowned upon.
So you could argue that GW figures are more restricted in terms of conversion, even if it's physically easier to do with plastic/finecast.
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Post by: Barfolomew
Sean_OBrien wrote:
Obviously that North American Sales skyrocketed after the 2003 ( GW FY2004) internet ban went in place...wait...nope, that didn't happen:
2001 - 31,539,000
2002 - 32,791,000 (launch of LotR game)
2003 - 32,218,000
2004 - 33,110,000 (US Internet shopping cart ban and GW global sales high point)
2005 - 29,624,000 (with the ginormous price hike)
2006 - 27,766,000
2007 - 25,534,000
2008 - 26,844,000
2009 - 29,904,000
2010 - 31,270,000
2011 - 30,250,000
2012 - 33,621,000
All in pounds of course...but, the evidence clearly shows that the internet ban has been excellent for growing sales in the US...oh, my bad again...it didn't instill growth at all.
Does anyone have the specifics on how much GW has jacked up prices each year?
I seem to recall a box of CSM being $20 in 2003, with the current price being $37.25. Even if I'm off a few bucks, it will still demonstrate my point. Assuming a linear price increase of 7% each year (7.5% gets you from 20 to 37.25 in 10 years), the numbers get adjusted back to the below:
2003 - 32,218,000
2004 - 30,792,300
2005 - 25,476,640
2006 - 21,935,140
2007 - 18,384,480
2008 - 17,448,600
2009 - 17,344,320
2010 - 15,947,700
2011 - 13,310,000
2012 - 12,439,770
Even if you just adjust for inflation, you end up with the below:
2003 - 32,218,000
2004 - 32,017,370
2005 - 27,639,192
2006 - 25,211,528
2007 - 22,137,978
2008 - 23,246,904
2009 - 25,089,456
2010 - 25,766,480
2011 - 24,018,500
2012 - 26,123,517
Seems pretty clear that GW's volume is declining and they are jacking up prices to keep up the revenue.
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Post by: jonolikespie
Herzlos wrote:
I can only think of 2 situations were customization isn't encouraged, and that's warmachine (because it's important to be able to identify characters)...
Even then that is more the playerbase. PP themselves apparently love people converting things.
Back to the point at hand Kingsley if your entire argument here is that GW games are different because plastic is easier to convert than metal you are on very very thin ice man. Automatically Appended Next Post: Herzlos wrote:
It's also worth noting that the only conversion GW encourages is kitbashing; taking parts from another kit and using them instead, within a small realm of what's allowed (it has to be WYSIWYG and match the codex). 3rd party bits or custom sculpts are frowned upon.
So you could argue that GW figures are more restricted in terms of conversion, even if it's physically easier to do with plastic/finecast.
Also this.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Actually Kingsley has a point that 40K being wide open, having a lot of selections, and using mainly plastic models lends itself to conversions and scratchbuilding.
It is sad that GW have reduced their support and encouragement of this sort of activity.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
But we are still off topic.
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Post by: Elemental
Kingsley wrote:
There is no game at present that encourages you to customize a large force in the same way that 40k and Fantasy do. While other games like Warmahordes, Infinity, and Malifaux can superficially be considered direct competitors with GW, in point of fact that is not the case-- the core experience of collecting and playing those games is fundamentally different from the core experience of collecting and playing 40k. I've seen postings for Warmahordes tournaments that don't allow conversions-- that would never fly for 40k.
Just a point of order, the official Privateer tournament rules allow conversions (with parts from any range) if it's at least half the original model and weapons aren't changed to weapons with different in-game effects. Even then, the TO is free to make exceptions if it's plain at a glance what a model is meant to be. Like this one: http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b289/Elemental402/Miniatures/IMG_3491.jpg
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Post by: Alfndrate
So... OP, if you're still reading this thread...
Are you going to pick up GW products anyways? I know that you're a first time store owner, and GW products do still sell, and in some cases, sell well, but after this showing are you just going to drop it?
Also as a point of suggestion, I would take a copy of your invoices of product you've bought from other companies with the important details like credit card info etc... blacked out, and I would send these copies to GW with a hand written (or typed) letter explaining your situation and how appalled you were at their showing at the trade show, and because of this you felt it was an unwise business decision to stock GW products because you didn't want to deal with a company that didn't support it's stockists. Show them the nice highlighted sections on the invoice showing them how much money you spent on Company X's product and Company Y's game. Ship that off to Nottingham... If GW doesn't like 1 thing besides veteran gamers, it's being shown how much money they're not getting...
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Post by: Kingsley
jonolikespie wrote:Back to the point at hand Kingsley if your entire argument here is that GW games are different because plastic is easier to convert than metal you are on very very thin ice man.
I have to say I'm getting increasingly tired of people who seemingly don't bother to read the entirety of a post or understand the nuance of a complicated argument.
Alfndrate wrote:So... OP, if you're still reading this thread...
Are you going to pick up GW products anyways? I know that you're a first time store owner, and GW products do still sell, and in some cases, sell well, but after this showing are you just going to drop it?
Also as a point of suggestion, I would take a copy of your invoices of product you've bought from other companies with the important details like credit card info etc... blacked out, and I would send these copies to GW with a hand written (or typed) letter explaining your situation and how appalled you were at their showing at the trade show, and because of this you felt it was an unwise business decision to stock GW products because you didn't want to deal with a company that didn't support it's stockists. Show them the nice highlighted sections on the invoice showing them how much money you spent on Company X's product and Company Y's game. Ship that off to Nottingham... If GW doesn't like 1 thing besides veteran gamers, it's being shown how much money they're not getting...
This is great advice. When you get right down to it, GW more or less doesn't care about what people say on the Internet. They care about what does and doesn't sell, and as a store owner your voice is likely more likely to be heard at GW than that of the average gamer, as you have much more of a role in determining what does and doesn't sell.
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Post by: Saldiven
Kingsley wrote:A lot of people seem to have misunderstood the Burger King vs. McDonalds comparison-- perhaps intentionally so. What I'm saying is this: The fundamental experience of collecting and playing 40k or WHFB is different to the experience of collecting and playing most other miniatures games on the market right now. I say this as someone who has collected and played many miniatures games, both GW and non- GW.
Speaking as a person that has played miniature games since my older brother bought Chainmail in 1980, I have to say that the gaming experiences really, really, really aren't as different as you think.
You, yourself, might see a tremendous difference. Judging from the majority of the posts in this forum and my own, personal experience, most people don't see the difference you do.
So, GW encourages you to make conversions. So what? You can make conversions with any game, regardless of whether or not they encourage you to do so. Unique paint schemes are not unique to GW. While most people playing Warmachine Menoth stick to the book paint scheme, back when I played several years ago, I had my own paint scheme for my Menoth, and the store owner had his own, different scheme for his Menoth.
The simple fact of the matter is the vast majority of people who play out there aren't as interested in this whole area of conversion and customization as a difference maker between game systems as you are. Most of us just want to play a good game without having to break our bank to do so. Most of us are more interested in well written, balanced rule sets from a game company that supports the community with timely rules updates and events. When we're sitting down to play a game, we might spend a couple of minutes admiring a well made conversion or original paint job, but we're going to spend the next 2-3 hours dealing with the game and its rules.
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Post by: Herzlos
Kingsley wrote: jonolikespie wrote:Back to the point at hand Kingsley if your entire argument here is that GW games are different because plastic is easier to convert than metal you are on very very thin ice man.
I have to say I'm getting increasingly tired of people who seemingly don't bother to read the entirety of a post or understand the nuance of a complicated argument.
What is the subtlety we're missing?
GW has a huge range of figures? Correct, so do many other companies.
You can make GW figures your own via painting and customization? Correct, but you can at least as much with most other companies (Without parts restrictions).
That you can play huge games with GW stuff? Correct, but you can have huge games with figures from most other companies too.
The only valid point is that GW stuff is physically easier to convert because it's plastic/soft resin, and there are a lot of interchangeable components because of the multi-part nature of the kits and a host of 3rd party companies GW is trying to get rid of. And even then, other companies will be catching up with multi-part plastic kits so the advantage won't be with GW for long.
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Post by: heartserenade
Funny what constitutes a complicated argument nowadays.
It's a just as complicated as how Vampire: the Masquerade is different to D&D, and yet Kingsley dismisses it as "too similar" because it wouldn't support his argument.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
I'm off to pick some cherries.
And then make an argument.
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Post by: aosol
I think there has been enough evidence given to constitute a decline. How many years would you say till GW goes out of business? I asking those who know better through experience empirical data and expertise. Not those seeking to grind GW between their iron fingers.
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Post by: sourclams
 aosol wrote:I think there has been enough evidence given to constitute a decline. How many years would you say till GW goes out of business? I asking those who know better through experience empirical data and expertise. Not those seeking to grind GW between their iron fingers.
I, nor anyone, can give a hard answer to this but the best indicator would likely lie with 'whenever the annual 10% price hike finally takes individual model cost to the point at which fewer than 90% of last year's customers show up, and there are no expenses left to be cut, and no assets remaining to be sold'.
I don't know what that price level is, but I'd guess it's somewhere near the $100/box level. It seems quite a few of the new GW boxes are still in $60-$70 vicinities, so we're looking at about 5-7 years into the future before incremental price increases ration enough demand that volume declines fully offset. That'll be when the death spiral becomes realized.
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Post by: AllSeeingSkink
Barfolomew wrote:Even if you just adjust for inflation, you end up with the below:
2003 - 32,218,000
2004 - 32,017,370
2005 - 27,639,192
2006 - 25,211,528
2007 - 22,137,978
2008 - 23,246,904
2009 - 25,089,456
2010 - 25,766,480
2011 - 24,018,500
2012 - 26,123,517
This definitely paints a more interesting picture to me, it goes against the often stated idea that "they keep raising prices because people keep buying it".
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Post by: Kingsley
Unfortunately it's also based on the very questionable assumption of flat 7% price increases per year, so ultimately isn't very meaningful.
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Post by: AllSeeingSkink
Kingsley wrote:Unfortunately it's also based on the very questionable assumption of flat 7% price increases per year, so ultimately isn't very meaningful.
The prices I quoted were the ones which were inflation only, not the 7% ones.
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Post by: Kingsley
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Kingsley wrote:Unfortunately it's also based on the very questionable assumption of flat 7% price increases per year, so ultimately isn't very meaningful.
The prices I quoted were the ones which were inflation only, not the 7% ones.
My mistake, had the thread open in two different tabs and saw the wrong post.
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Post by: Warboss Gubbinz
Still waiting on an answer for this one Kingsley:
So, trying to understand this properly, Kingsley, what is your vew of GW? how are they helping the "hobby" per say.
You said you couldn't see any parallels with TSR. TSR tried to enforce copyright over the word "Dragon"
Games Workshop, you may recall claimed trademark infringement on the word Space Marine. Link
How are these not similar?
edited because copy/paste fail.
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Post by: Gentleman_Jellyfish
Warboss Gubbinz wrote:Still waiting on an answer for this one Kingsley:
So, trying to understand this properly, Kingsley, what is your vew of GW? how are they helping the "hobby" per say.
You said you couldn't see any parallels with TSR. TSR tried to enforce copyright over the word "Dragon"
Games Workshop, you may recall claimed trademark infringement on the word Space Marine.Link
How are these not similar?
Because GW is infallible?
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Post by: Kingsley
Warboss Gubbinz wrote:Still waiting on an answer for this one Kingsley:
So, trying to understand this properly, Kingsley, what is your vew of GW? how are they helping the "hobby" per say.
You said you couldn't see any parallels with TSR. TSR tried to enforce copyright over the word "Dragon"
Games Workshop, you may recall claimed trademark infringement on the word Space Marine.Link
How are these not similar?
They are similar. In fact, I said that earlier. My very first reply regarding the TSR comparison said that I thought that copyright enforcement was the one valid parallel between the two.
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Post by: Herzlos
aosol wrote:I think there has been enough evidence given to constitute a decline. How many years would you say till GW goes out of business? I asking those who know better through experience empirical data and expertise. Not those seeking to grind GW between their iron fingers.
I think they'll continue as they are for another few years, stemming their losses but ultimately losing ground to everyone else until they drop below critical mass with the gamers they drove out of the stores, and will scale right back to a boutique supplier for die-hard fans. I don't think 40K will fall from the #1 spot for at least another 5 years though
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Kingsley wrote:Unfortunately it's also based on the very questionable assumption of flat 7% price increases per year, so ultimately isn't very meaningful.
It's based on the easily demonstrated increases of varying levels for different SKUs which average out to x% a year (whatever they do average to, I don't know exactly).
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Post by: Kingsley
 Kilkrazy wrote: Kingsley wrote:Unfortunately it's also based on the very questionable assumption of flat 7% price increases per year, so ultimately isn't very meaningful.
It's based on the easily demonstrated increases of varying levels for different SKUs which average out to x% a year (whatever they do average to, I don't know exactly).
One problem with this is that we don't really know what SKUs are and aren't popular. Averaging hence misses a lot of nuance and overall detail. This is also why it isn't clear what effects price increases have on overall sales.
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Post by: JWhex
GW survived a world wide very serious recession. They have the top selling line of table top miniatures in a market (USA) that grew 15% last year. Why do people think the end times are near for GW?
Any business can tank but GW has persisted at the top for decades. The value of the stock has increased even though sales have been flat. In general that means investors must think that in recent months GW is doing something correctly or are optimistic that GW is on track.
I get that GW does a lot of things that frustrate hobbyists. However, that frustration does not mean that they are not running a successful business. If GW does tank I think it would be a disaster for the tabletop miniature industry and set us back years.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
It's easy to know what is popular by looking around what people are buying and playing.
Obviously Tau are popular, for example.
Are you going to claim that the really popular models are the few examples that haven't gone up much over the past 10 years, so GW are enjoying huge sales growth?
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Post by: Kingsley
Kilkrazy wrote:It's easy to know what is popular by looking around what people are buying and playing.
Obviously Tau are popular, for example.
Are you going to claim that the really popular models are the few examples that haven't gone up much over the past 10 years, so GW are enjoying huge sales growth?
One example of what's really popular are Troops, because everyone has to have them. Troops haven't gone up much and indeed many have gone down. But the actual specific proportions of Troops kit sales relative to others are very important here, and we don't have that.
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Post by: rigeld2
JWhex wrote:If GW does tank I think it would be a disaster for the tabletop miniature industry and set us back years.
I seriously think you're overestimating their "pull" in the market.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Kingsley wrote: Kilkrazy wrote:It's easy to know what is popular by looking around what people are buying and playing.
Obviously Tau are popular, for example.
Are you going to claim that the really popular models are the few examples that haven't gone up much over the past 10 years, so GW are enjoying huge sales growth?
One example of what's really popular are Troops, because everyone has to have them. Troops haven't gone up much and indeed many have gone down. But the actual specific proportions of Troops kit sales relative to others are very important here, and we don't have that.
Another example of what's popular is all the other stuff you need for a real army, a lot of which has gone up a lot.
We've got plenty of info regarding general proportions of units sales by looking around at what people have bought.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
Kingsley wrote: Kilkrazy wrote:It's easy to know what is popular by looking around what people are buying and playing.
Obviously Tau are popular, for example.
Are you going to claim that the really popular models are the few examples that haven't gone up much over the past 10 years, so GW are enjoying huge sales growth?
One example of what's really popular are Troops, because everyone has to have them. Troops haven't gone up much and indeed many have gone down. But the actual specific proportions of Troops kit sales relative to others are very important here, and we don't have that.
Not sure where you are getting the troops staying low from...
If we look at Grey Knights from FY 2004 to now...the basic troop went from 5 for $25 ($5 each) then and 5 for $33 ($6.60) now. +32%
If we look at Necrons from FY 2004 to now...the basic troop went from 12 for $30 ($2.50) then and 12 for $36.25 ($3.02) now. +21%
If we look at Orks from FY2004 to now...the basic Troop is 16 for $30 ($1.88 each) then and 10 for $29 ($2.90) now. +54%
If we look at Tau from FY 2004 to now...the basic Troop went from 12 for $30 ($2.50) then and 12 for $36.25 ($3.02) now. +21%
If we look at CSM from FY 2004 to now...the basic Troop went from 8 for $30 ($3.75) then to 10 for $37.25 ($3.73) now. -1%
If we look at SM from FY 2004 to now...the basic Troop went from 10 for $30 ($3.00) then to 10 for $37.25 ($3.73) now. +24%
If we look at Dark Eldar from FY 2004 to now...the basic Troop went from 16 for $30 ($1.88) then to 10 for $29 ($2.90) now. +54%
If we look at Nids from FY 2004 to now...the basic Troop went from 12 for $30 ($2.50) then to 8 for $30 ($3.75) now. +50%
If we look at IG from FY 2004 to now...the basic Troop went from 20 for $30 ($1.50) then to 10 for $29 ($2.90) now. +93%
If we look at SoB from FY 2004 to now...the basic Troop went from 10 for $35 ($3.50) then to 3 for $17.25 ($5.75) now. +64%
If we look at Eldar from FY 2004 to now...the basic Troop went from 16 for $30 ($1.88) then to 10 for $36.25 ($3.63) now. +93%
The CSM got a slight down turn - everyone else is up. The change is in the bold at the end of each line. Cliff notes is that close to the rate of inflation is simple bold. Orange is over the rate of inflation but less than double. Red is more the double but less than triple. Bold, Italics, dark red are more than triple the rate of inflation - far and above the regular rate of increase for armies as a whole.
So...troops have gone up. Many of them have gone up a lot. In particular for a guard army which is heavy with troops - they have seen a 93% increase on their troops. Half the armies have seen troop increases that are double the rate of inflation or more. Automatically Appended Next Post: Kilkrazy wrote: Kingsley wrote: Kilkrazy wrote:It's easy to know what is popular by looking around what people are buying and playing.
Obviously Tau are popular, for example.
Are you going to claim that the really popular models are the few examples that haven't gone up much over the past 10 years, so GW are enjoying huge sales growth?
One example of what's really popular are Troops, because everyone has to have them. Troops haven't gone up much and indeed many have gone down. But the actual specific proportions of Troops kit sales relative to others are very important here, and we don't have that.
Another example of what's popular is all the other stuff you need for a real army, a lot of which has gone up a lot.
We've got plenty of info regarding general proportions of units sales by looking around at what people have bought.
And even more from the accidently posted sealed document regarding GW sales figures for North America from the CHS case... Automatically Appended Next Post: JWhex wrote:They have the top selling line of table top miniatures in a market (USA) that grew 15% last year. Why do people think the end times are near for GW?
Think you might be missing a whole heck of a lot. GW hasn't grown in the US for well over a decade. They are treading water.
Hobby games in general are growing like mad in the US though, GW isn't part of that growth though.
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Post by: JWhex
The point is they are in the top spot in a healthy market, thus the predictions of their imminent demise seems to me to be premature.
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Post by: AllSeeingSkink
JWhex wrote:The point is they are in the top spot in a healthy market, thus the predictions of their imminent demise seems to me to be premature.
I don't think anyone is saying "imminent demise", they are top spot, but they are shrinking in a market that is growing.
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Post by: Wolf
Kingsley wrote: Kilkrazy wrote:It's easy to know what is popular by looking around what people are buying and playing.
Obviously Tau are popular, for example.
Are you going to claim that the really popular models are the few examples that haven't gone up much over the past 10 years, so GW are enjoying huge sales growth?
One example of what's really popular are Troops, because everyone has to have them. Troops haven't gone up much and indeed many have gone down. But the actual specific proportions of Troops kit sales relative to others are very important here, and we don't have that.
I'd just like to point out that once upon a time you could buy 20 Guardsmen for less than it is for 10 guardsmen. Those said 10 guardsmen are now considerably more expensive !
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
JWhex wrote:The point is they are in the top spot in a healthy market, thus the predictions of their imminent demise seems to me to be premature.
As my investor friends like to say, if a company can't grow in a growing industry they have structural problems.
GW has structural problems, and much like houses with structural problems - I wouldn't want to live inside of it. Companies like that can often go along seemingly well enough for years and then implode overnight...or they may just slowly grind into the ground as upstarts pass them by and seize the market from them.
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Post by: Kingsley
I've posted this several times before, but:
Kingsley wrote:Here are the prices for the Troops units for every 40k army (format is price (inflation-adjusted price)) compared between August 2004 and now:
Assault Marines (for Blood Angels): 30 USD (36.41) USD for 5 in 2004 (Sergeants with special melee weapons bought separately at 8 (9.71) USD per), 33 USD for 5 now, Sergeant special melee options included. (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Space Wolf Grey Hunters/Blood Claws: 30 (36.41) USD for 10 in 2004 (special weapon status unclear), 37.25 USD for 10 now with special weapons and special melee weapons included, plus tons of bitz (comparison unclear, probably increase or decrease depending on loadout)
Scouts with melee weapons: 20 (24.27) USD for 5 including Sergeant in 2004 (heavy bolter bought separately at 8 (9.71) USD per): 25 USD for 5 now, heavy bolter included (price increase or decrease depending on loadout)
Scouts with bolters or shotguns: 8 (9.71) USD for 2 in 2004 (heavy bolter bought separately at 8 (9.71) USD per), 25 USD for 5 now, heavy bolter included (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Scouts with sniper rifles: 8 (9.71) USD for 2 in 2004 (Sergeant bought separately at 7 (8.50) per), 25 USD for 5 now, Sergeant and missile launcher option included (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Tactical Marines: 30 (36.41) USD for 10 in 2004 (non-flamer special weapons bought separately at 10 (12.14) USD per), 37.25 USD for 10 now with non-flamer special weapons included (price increase or decrease depending on loadout)
Bloodletters of Khorne: 45 (54.61) USD for 10 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease)
Dæmonettes of Slaanesh: 40 (48.51) USD for 10 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease, but man I liked those old sculpts )
Horrors of Tzeentch: 40 (48.51) USD for 10 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease)
Plaguebearers of Nurgle: 40 (48.51) USD for 10 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease)
Chaos Space Marines: 25 (30.34) USD for 8 in 2004, 37.25 USD for 10 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Dark Eldar Warriors: 30 (36.41) USD for 16 in 2004 (special/heavy weapons bought separately at 10 (12.14) USD for one blaster and one shredder or 10 (12.14) USD for two Dark Lances) 29 USD for 10 now with all options included (price increase or inflation-adjusted price decrease depending on loadout)
Dark Eldar Wyches: 30 (36.41) USD for 5 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price decrease)
Eldar Dire Avengers: 30 (36.41) USD for 8 in 2004, 37.25 for 10 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Eldar Guardians: 30 (36.41) USD for 16 in 2004 (heavy weapons platforms bought separately with two crew at 20 (24.27) USD per), 36.25 for 10 now with heavy weapons platform included (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Grey Knights: 30 (36.41) USD for 5 in 2004 (special weapons bought separately at 10 (12.14) USD per), 33 USD for 5 now with special weapons included (price decrease)
Grey Knight Terminators: 55 (66.75) USD for 5 in 2004 (special weapons bought separately at 10 (12.14) USD per), 50 USD for 5 now with special weapons included (price decrease)
Imperial Guard plastics (Cadians, Catachans): 30 (36.41) USD for 20 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price increase)
Imperial Guard metals (Valhallans, Steel Legion, Vostroyans, Tallarn, Mordians): 35 (42.48) USD for 10 in 2004, 35 USD for 10 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Necron Immortals: 10 (12.14) USD for 1 in 2004, 33 USD for 5 now (price decrease)
Necron Warriors: 30 (36.41) USD for 12 in 2004, 36.25 USD for 12 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Ork Boyz: 30 (36.41) USD for 16 in 2004, 29 USD for 10 now (price increase or decrease depending on loadout, as the new kit has options for special weapons and a Nob)
Gretchin
Gretchin 34 (41.79) USD for 13 in 2004, 16.50 USD for 11 now (price decrease)
Sisters of Battle: 35 (42.48) USD for 10 in 2004, 64 USD for 10 now (price increase)
Tau Fire Warriors: 30 (36.41) USD for 12 in 2004, 36.25 USD for 12 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Kroot Carnivores: 30 (36.41) USD for 16 in 2004, 36.25 USD for 16 now (inflation-adjusted price decrease)
Termagants: 30 (36.41) for 16 in 2004, 29 USD for 12 now (price increase)
Hormagaunts: 30 (36.41) for 16 in 2004, 29 USD for 12 now (price increase)
Genestealers: 30 (36.41) for 12 in 2004, 30 USD for 8 now (price increase)
So overall, we see that of the 29 basic Troops kits, 5 have gone up in price since August 2004, 5 went up or down depending on what loadout you took (and typically went down), 10 went down in price when you account for inflation, and 9 outright decreased in price without accounting for inflation. In other words, 65% of Troops choices have gone down in price since August 2004. Since this comprises 8-9 years of nominal "price increases," it's clear that GW does not hike prices as much as many people think.
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Post by: Hruotland
Lets take the numbers aside, I just understand enough about statistics to know you can prove everything, you just have to analyse the right part of your data in order to show what you want to show. But you need an analyst and the complete data to understand where the crux is buried.
The rest of the discussion let me conclude one thing. Kingsley, I believe we have met. Aren't you that guy that used to sell sinking boats on Melée Island? Well seems you are still in the business.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
It seems to me that a lot of figures aren't the same figures, they've been done again in plastic. It's not really fair to compare entirely different sculpts. That's why I don't make a big deal about space marines being 30 for £10 when first released as compared to 10 for £23 now. I'm fairly sure that a lot of those on Kingsley's list made the transition from metal to plastic during those price drops and that the comparison isn't taking into account a cheaper material with decreased detail and undercuts, the sacrifices you make taking plastic over metal.
What is fair to note more are things like the Catachans, for which the very same models available today at 10 for £18 were originally priced 20 for £10.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
Once you start trying to figure all the special weapons, heavy weapons and other upgrades you end up going off the rails. Without digging into things too deeply, a quick example is with the GK PA.
If you bought the box, you got a Justicar, 3 regular PA and one armed with an incinerator. That is $30 for 5 using your starting point ($6 each). The rate of inflation between then and now is roughly 20% (because you are not dealing with whole years). So, you can adjust your price up to $7.20 per if you like to think inflation should factor in...but wait...
At that same time, you could buy 2 regular PA for $10 as well (so $5 each). So, if you wanted to run a unit of 10 with one Psycannon and one Incinerator you would have $30 + $10x2 + $10 for a total unit price of $60 (or $6 each).
If however you wanted to run with a partial group (say 7) due to your points using the Justicar, incernator, 3 PAGK which come in the box plus 2 extras for a total of $40 that is $5.71 per figure in that unit which adjusts up to $6.85 per if you are in favor of the inflation adjustment being applicable.
Now - that is more than the $6.60 per figure out of the plastic boxes...but now make that same 7 man unit... You have to spend $9.43 per figure (2 boxes with no option to buy singles) in order to get to the same number of figures.
Even if you were looking at a 6 man team with two Psycannons or incinerators you would still be looking at $8 or more per figure now. Over and above the old prices even when inflation is calculated into things.
The same problems crop up whenever you start to actually apply the boxes (which may or may not have useful parts in them) to building a whole army. Like I said before - the metal figures don't factor into army prices as much as you might think they do. Splitting a plastic set across two units and filling it with metal singles (or doubles or triples in some cases) can be more cost effective when you are building a 1500 point army as opposed to just comparing maxed out load outs outside the context of the actual game itself.
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Post by: carmachu
insaniak wrote:Yeah, aside from the brand dilution part, you could practically just swap out 'TSR' for ' GW' in that article...
One could argue that long term, LOTR is diluting the brand. All the rules and such that cant be mixed and matched, models cant be used side by side or kitbashed together, and the Hobbit looks like a failure. Its now taking up resources that arent being fullfilled profit wise now that the LOTR bubble is long dead and gone. Automatically Appended Next Post: Kingsley wrote:
I've played three different editions of D&D, Paranoia, GI, Dark Heresy, Deathwatch, and Eclipse Phase. All of those games are far more similar to one another than 40k is to Infinity, and they comprise a huge range of settings, rules, and encouraged styles of play. I'm not talking about rules or settings but the fundamental elements of gameplay.
If you think that, You didnt really play. paranoia is WAY different the D&D. DH and DW are similar becuase they were made by the same company. The 3 different editions of D&D- 2nd, 3.x and 4th play WAY differently from each other. The elements are different. Automatically Appended Next Post: Sean_OBrien wrote: insaniak wrote:
Internet retailers have been restrained in the US since 2001 or 2003 and by all accounts this has increased sales.
Which accounts would those be?
Obviously that North American Sales skyrocketed after the 2003 ( GW FY2004) internet ban went in place...wait...nope, that didn't happen:
2001 - 31,539,000
2002 - 32,791,000 (launch of LotR game)
2003 - 32,218,000
2004 - 33,110,000 (US Internet shopping cart ban and GW global sales high point)
2005 - 29,624,000 (with the ginormous price hike)
2006 - 27,766,000
2007 - 25,534,000
2008 - 26,844,000
2009 - 29,904,000
2010 - 31,270,000
2011 - 30,250,000
2012 - 33,621,000
All in pounds of course...but, the evidence clearly shows that the internet ban has been excellent for growing sales in the US...oh, my bad again...it didn't instill growth at all.
Thats all great, but the real telling is what were the number of units sold per year?
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Post by: silent25
carmachu wrote:
Thats all great, but the real telling is what were the number of units sold per year?
Not sure that would help. GW was switching to plastic from metal that entire time. A single 10 man box would show up as one unit where two man blisters for the same number would show up as 5 units.
That leads to an interesting theory. Not a defense of GW, but a possible cause of their downfall.
One word: PLASTIC
In almost all cases, when GW would switch from metal to plastic, there would be a price reduction. Suddenly those metal figures at $3 each cost only $2 each in plastic. When the changes first started, that 5 man units of knights that was $33 is now $20, but you don't need 8 - 9 knights, 5 still suffice. GW has lost 40% of their revenue. You may decide to get another unit or a friend starts the game and gets a unit. As long as enough additional purchases were made to make up the difference, GW would make out. But factor in inflation and not enough people buying more of the new plastic units, and GW lost money on that unit conversion. Result GW changes the rules where you now need 8 knights instead of 5 or they raise the price.
Thus the downward spiral begins. The early 2000's saw a lot of RnF units switch to plastic. So players initially saw savings and bought more and new players came in also because the game was becoming more "accessible" and GW was growing by 15 to 18% during that time. But what if that growth wasn't enough to counter act the price reduction for each kit? Eventually GW has reduced prices from switching from metal to plastic where suddenly there aren't enough new players or old players buying stuff to keep the sales increases going? They saturated their market.
Would we be seeing the regular price hikes and increasing unit counts each edition if GW had not made the savings on plastics as much?
Again, not a defense of GW, just a thought on the whole thing.
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Post by: insaniak
silent25 wrote:In almost all cases, when GW would switch from metal to plastic, there would be a price reduction.
This was true for a time, but hasn't always been the case. There have been quite a few examples of plastics coming out at the same price as the metals they replaced (see Space Marine Terminators).
There's also the fact that the production costs for plastic are quite a bit lower than for metal once the moulding costs are accounted for ... and those start-up costs are absorbed by the previous sets. The material is cheaper, and casting less labour intensive. Shipping is also cheaper... which adds up to a considerable saving when you're looking at container loads at a time.
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Post by: Old Man Ultramarine
 Alfndrate wrote:So... OP, if you're still reading this thread...
Are you going to pick up GW products anyways? I know that you're a first time store owner, and GW products do still sell, and in some cases, sell well, but after this showing are you just going to drop it?
Also as a point of suggestion, I would take a copy of your invoices of product you've bought from other companies with the important details like credit card info etc... blacked out, and I would send these copies to GW with a hand written (or typed) letter explaining your situation and how appalled you were at their showing at the trade show, and because of this you felt it was an unwise business decision to stock GW products because you didn't want to deal with a company that didn't support it's stockists. Show them the nice highlighted sections on the invoice showing them how much money you spent on Company X's product and Company Y's game. Ship that off to Nottingham... If GW doesn't like 1 thing besides veteran gamers, it's being shown how much money they're not getting...
Sadly, I'm sifting through this mess.
I have played 40k since 1997, took a few years off to flop some cards, but I returned. I have stupid amounts of GW product in my personal collection, so I'm probably not going anywhere. We opened store last October and have generated at least 40 new 40k players in our store. I'm not at all happy with GW's attitude and the caliber of presentations they do. The secrecy and lack of informing independent retailers is beyond ridiculous. I won't do anything "unprofessional" as far as sending them receipts, but I will let my sales rep know that we may go in different direction in future.
If the monkeys at the controls in Britain either leave or are bought out, I hope someone will recognize the IP they have and expand into different areas of gaming.
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Post by: silent25
insaniak wrote:silent25 wrote:In almost all cases, when GW would switch from metal to plastic, there would be a price reduction.
This was true for a time, but hasn't always been the case. There have been quite a few examples of plastics coming out at the same price as the metals they replaced (see Space Marine Terminators).
There's also the fact that the production costs for plastic are quite a bit lower than for metal once the moulding costs are accounted for ... and those start-up costs are absorbed by the previous sets. The material is cheaper, and casting less labour intensive. Shipping is also cheaper... which adds up to a considerable saving when you're looking at container loads at a time.
That is why I said almost all cases. The terminators was one of the few exceptions I can think of. And I am talking early 2000's. You can point to more recent stuff in the last few years, but the point I was making you normally saw a price reduction. Additionally, plastics had a higher up front cost initially. Metal models have higher mold and labor costs, but cheaper initial costs. If people weren't buying as many new models, you don't recoup those initial costs as fast.
Point I am making, people were comfortable with the metal prices. If GW had charged the same for all new plastics across the board, would we have seen the price hikes and other policies that started in the mid-2000's?
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Post by: jonolikespie
Sean_OBrien wrote:JWhex wrote:The point is they are in the top spot in a healthy market, thus the predictions of their imminent demise seems to me to be premature.
As my investor friends like to say, if a company can't grow in a growing industry they have structural problems.
Exactly. The hobby itself might have grown by 15% but GW grew like 6% by cutting costs. That is a pretty clear sign then aren't going to be in the top spot for long.
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Post by: silent25
Old Man Ultramarine wrote:
If the monkeys at the controls in Britain either leave or are bought out, I hope someone will recognize the IP they have and expand into different areas of gaming.
Be careful what you wish for. Kirby lead the initial takeover from Bryan Ansell. Per interviews with Rick Priestly, the investors that backed him immediately were demanding a return on their investment. Whoever backs an new takeover will likely do the same. You may see things like all of production being sacked in the UK and moved to Vietnam for cost savings and all non-profitable stores/battle bunkers be closed. And worse, during the production move there is no new material produced for several months. Even stores that don't rely heavily on GW product, if 5-10~% of your sales sudden disappears, that hurts. That can be the difference between keeping an extra employee or worse paying some bills.
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Post by: AllSeeingSkink
insaniak wrote:Shipping is also cheaper... which adds up to a considerable saving when you're looking at container loads at a time.
You sure about that? Being lighter would make aircraft freight cheaper, but actual ship (the thing that floats on water  ) shipping is more dominated by space, which sprues would take up more (at least that's the way I understand it).
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Post by: lord marcus
Kingsley wrote:A lot of people seem to have misunderstood the Burger King vs. McDonalds comparison-- perhaps intentionally so. What I'm saying is this: The fundamental experience of collecting and playing 40k or WHFB is different to the experience of collecting and playing most other miniatures games on the market right now. I say this as someone who has collected and played many miniatures games, both GW and non- GW.
In 40k, you collect an army and are encouraged to "make it your own" with conversions, unique paint schemes, etc. You then fight against another army in a large-scale conflict involving multiple units, vehicles, etc. on both sides. The end result is a large battle between two individually customized forces-- this result is what is largely unique to 40k/ WHFB. Other games in a similar space involve much less customization-- many, like Infinity, do not even have plastic models, which are key to allowing individual creativity on a whole-army level.
There is no game at present that encourages you to customize a large force in the same way that 40k and Fantasy do. While other games like Warmahordes, Infinity, and Malifaux can superficially be considered direct competitors with GW, in point of fact that is not the case-- the core experience of collecting and playing those games is fundamentally different from the core experience of collecting and playing 40k. I've seen postings for Warmahordes tournaments that don't allow conversions-- that would never fly for 40k.
GW has done a very good job of marketing "the Games Workshop hobby" as a complete experience. Now, they don't have a monopoly on it-- I remember playing Ætherverse back in the day and loving how it was even more of a customizable hobby experience than what GW had to offer-- but right now most of their competitors have not really been seriously challenging them on that front. For this reason, 40k and Fantasy seem to exist in a different "subgenre" of tabletop game, and one that, for better or for worse, GW owns at present.
Morachi wrote:I was told by the lad at the Brisbane Chermside store that if you wandered in with Balrog wings on a Daemon Prince or Hive Tyrant you were asked to leave. Now where is that fan/community support?
That was thanks to a licensing agreement that forbade mixing of Lord of the Rings and Warhammer/Warhammer 40k content. It was out of GW's hands.
Kings of War and Warpath by Mantic games. Both mass combat wargaming, with the encouragement to make your army your own. Hell Mantic has even left space in the game world deliberately so people can make up background!
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Post by: Herzlos
JWhex wrote:GW survived a world wide very serious recession. They have the top selling line of table top miniatures in a market (USA) that grew 15% last year. Why do people think the end times are near for GW?
Any business can tank but GW has persisted at the top for decades. The value of the stock has increased even though sales have been flat. In general that means investors must think that in recent months GW is doing something correctly or are optimistic that GW is on track.
I get that GW does a lot of things that frustrate hobbyists. However, that frustration does not mean that they are not running a successful business. If GW does tank I think it would be a disaster for the tabletop miniature industry and set us back years.
They did survive a serious recession with some serious cost savings, but at least they did, whilst a few smaller gaming companies went under (I can't name any though). The thing with recessions is that hobby spending often increases as people seek more escapism. People may not have upgraded their car or house like they may have planned to, but will have been more likely to buy some small luxury goods to make themselves feel better.
It's also worth noting that the table top miniatures market is growing at a huge rate round the world, but almost none of that growth is coming from GW who have remained flat. That means that the growth is all happening in GW's competition, and if that trend continues at the same rate GW is eventually going to go from being the big company and default game to being a runner up. I'm not sure it'll drop into complete obscurity because there are still people playing with old rules/figures, but I can't see them remaining top dog forever.
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Post by: PhantomViper
Herzlos wrote:
They did survive a serious recession with some serious cost savings, but at least they did, whilst a few smaller gaming companies went under (I can't name any though).
This is a false argument, GW themselves have stated that their core business is recession proof and this has been demonstrated by the fact that the hobby and most companies within the hobby have been growing constantly throughout the past years.
The only miniature wargaming company that I've even heard of going under was Rackham and that had absolutely nothing to do with any recession.
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Post by: Herzlos
There have been a few others closed but most were cottage shops and may not have been recession based. Gaming is largely recession proof though, yes, so being able to survive it isn't necessarily a sign of success.
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Post by: Alfndrate
Old Man Ultramarine wrote:Sadly, I'm sifting through this mess.
I have played 40k since 1997, took a few years off to flop some cards, but I returned. I have stupid amounts of GW product in my personal collection, so I'm probably not going anywhere. We opened store last October and have generated at least 40 new 40k players in our store. I'm not at all happy with GW's attitude and the caliber of presentations they do. The secrecy and lack of informing independent retailers is beyond ridiculous. I won't do anything "unprofessional" as far as sending them receipts, but I will let my sales rep know that we may go in different direction in future.
It's not unprofessional at all. You're simply showing them that because of reasons x, y, and z, you're no longer happy with their product, and company, are ordering less product down to no more product, and that you have shifted funds to companies a, b, and c. Thank them for the service they did provide, and move on. There was a poster in a similar thread that mentioned how he sent copies of his receipts to GW and they gave him a personal phone call.. This was a single person, not a store.
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Post by: Kingsley
 lord marcus wrote:Kings of War and Warpath by Mantic games. Both mass combat wargaming, with the encouragement to make your army your own. Hell Mantic has even left space in the game world deliberately so people can make up background!
Those rules (if you can call them that) are largely made as a cover to prevent Mantic from being sued. I've never seen a single person play them and every review I've encountered has been negative.
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Post by: Warboss Gubbinz
Kingsley, what is your take on the rules set, beyond the "Cover them from being sued"? have you ever played using their rules set?
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Post by: RatBot
I'll counter Kingsley with, while I, too, have never seen anyone playing Kings of War or Warpath, and am not all that interested in them myself when there are so many other options out there, I've never read a negative review of Kings of War. Warpath, though... well, I've never read a review of Warpath, period.
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Post by: Dysartes
 RatBot wrote:I'll counter Kingsley with, while I, too, have never seen anyone playing Kings of War or Warpath, and am not all that interested in them myself when there are so many other options out there, I've never read a negative review of Kings of War. Warpath, though... well, I've never read a review of Warpath, period.
In Warpath's defence, it is still in its beta stage. I played it at an Open Day, and enjoyed the system, though it took a little getting used to - though that was mainly shaking loose previous experience and approaching the rules with a clean brain.
I've read through the KoW rules, and they seem pretty solid - I suspect Kingsley's goggles kicked in again there...
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Post by: Kingsley
Warboss Gubbinz wrote:Kingsley, what is your take on the rules set, beyond the "Cover them from being sued"? have you ever played using their rules set?
I've played Warpath but not Kings of War. Warpath seemed extremely incomplete, more like a pre-alpha version initial testing run than an actual ruleset. Unfortunately, many of the fundamental design elements were IMO ill-conceived, so I don't really see it getting better in later iterations unless they burn it down and start over. The people who I've spoken with about Kings of War say that it's the same thing but with a little more polish.
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Post by: Lanrak
@Kingsley.
Why do Mantic need rules to stop them being sued?
Generic fantasy tropes have been around for years, orcs , elves, dwarves, etc.
And futuristic human troops , along with fantasy tropes in space have been around ages too.
I thought Mantic were more about offering great value for money.And rules add value to their product range.
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Post by: Grimtuff
Lanrak wrote:@Kingsley.
Why do Mantic need rules to stop them being sued?
Generic fantasy tropes have been around for years, orcs , elves, dwarves, etc.
And futuristic human troops , along with fantasy tropes in space have been around ages too.
I thought Mantic were more about offering great value for money.And rules add value to their product range.
They don't. I have absolutely no idea where he got this from.
Wonder what "new" idea's he'll get from the threads started tomorrow.
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Post by: Kingsley
Lanrak wrote:@Kingsley.
Why do Mantic need rules to stop them being sued?
They don't need them, but they provide a good cover story for getting their products distributed. People take a dim view of "we sell GW knockoffs" and a much better view of "we sell models for our own miniatures games," even if those games just so happen to be in the same scale as GW games, represent the same archetypes, and are derivative of GW designs and concepts in every respect.
When Mantic's secret original race was "Skaven in space" and their awesome new game was "Blood Bowl in space" the writing on the wall became very clear to me.
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Post by: weeble1000
Kingsley wrote:Lanrak wrote:@Kingsley. Why do Mantic need rules to stop them being sued?
They don't need them, but they provide a good cover story for getting their products distributed. People take a dim view of "we sell GW knockoffs" and a much better view of "we sell models for our own miniatures games," even if those games just so happen to be in the same scale as GW games, represent the same archetypes, and are derivative of GW designs and concepts in every respect. When Mantic's secret original race was "Skaven in space" and their awesome new game was "Blood Bowl in space" the writing on the wall became very clear to me.
Mantic was started by folks from the GW design studio that the company shoved out because they wanted to go in creative directions GW was adverse to, such as continuing to actively support specialist games like Blood Bowl. Mantic, in my eyes, is doing large model count fantasy and sci-fi table top wargaming the way they believe it should be done. I detest the assertion that Mantic is "knocking off" GW. Mantic is a company founded on creative and business ideas GW rejected. GW is not the end all be all of fantasy and sci-fi table top miniature wargaming. GW is just now one of the biggest players in that market. The mere fact that GW has a large market share does not mean that GW owns the industry. In fact, back in the day, GW was essentially what Mantic is today. GW saw other companies enjoying success in the fantasy table top miniature wargaming market and decided to do what those companies were doing. GW knocked together its fantasy world out of a slew of tongue in cheek "rip offs" of other people's fiction and used it as a vehicle to sell fantasy table top wargaming miniatures. GW has since almost completely abandoned the way it used to do business and sloughed off the creative minds that helped to make GW the success that it is now squandering today. Dreadball is not a Blood Bowl ripoff. It is Mantic's Blood Bowl-type product. Every GD thing about Dreadball is different from Blood Bowl except that it is a humorous fantasy sports game backed up by continual support. Did GW create the concept of a humorous fantasy sports game backed up by continued support? I really do not know, but probably not. And if GW did create that concept, it is not something that anyone can own. GW does not want to do it. There is a market for it. Someone filled it with a unique, creative product. I do not understand why someone can sit up on a high horse and deride that. It would be a darn sad world indeed if the market were so constrained that an idea for a product that a company did not come up with and no longer even uses prevented anyone else from ever doing anything remotely similar.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
Yes...because anthropomorphic rats is an original GW idea...
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Post by: Grimtuff
Of course. Just ask Kingsley to find some examples and he'll conveniently ignore Master Splinter and Roland Rat.
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Post by: RatBot
 Grimtuff wrote: Of course. Just ask Kingsley to find some examples and he'll conveniently ignore Master Splinter and Roland Rat.
Also the entire series of Redwall novels. I haven't read them since middle school, but IIRC the primary antagonists in many of them were rats. Who walked on two legs and talked.
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Post by: Kingsley
Anthropomorphic rats are certainly not a unique concept. The "Veer-myn," however, have many of the exact same æsthetic elements as GW's Skaven. In fact, they could be used as counts-as for some Skaven units, despite nominally existing in a very different setting. Hence the claims of Mantic producing GW knockoffs-- it's very clear that many of their products are designed to be used in place of GW models for GW's games.
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Post by: privateer4hire
I'll address the Mantic discussion points really quickly.
KoW is a solid fantasy game. It streamlines stuff from WHFB (7th was my favorite edition) and you can play it with your GW/whoever's models. It plays a lot quicker; allows you to ally (you may be able to do that in WHFB 8th?); and IMO is a cleaner set of rules.
You can get the entire rule set plus all the army lists in a hard cover book for $35 or you can download the rules and the army lists (it's missing the magic items list) and print out for free. The $35 was cheaper to get everything in one pkg and without having to buy new print cartridges.
WarPath 2.0 is a much better game than the first version. It's still very much in playtest mode and needs a goodly sum of work to be a final product.
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Post by: Mad4Minis
 Polonius wrote:This seems to strengthen the idea that GW has moved from mostly neglecting independent shops to complete neglect. Sad to see.
Admittedly, selling to salesmen is the hardest kind of pitch, but there are a lot of things a company can do to smooth over a fiasco like the tau release. GW is doing none of them...
My LGS has completely told GW to feth off. They got tired of the way GW is treating retailers. He dropped the prices on his stock to about 1/2 retail, got rid of it all, and filled the former GW section with WM/H & Infinity stuff.
It should be noted that the owner is a long time 40k player, has numerous armies with minis spanning back to Rogue Trader days.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Kingsley wrote:
Anthropomorphic rats are certainly not a unique concept. The "Veer-myn," however, have many of the exact same æsthetic elements as GW's Skaven. In fact, they could be used as counts-as for some Skaven units, despite nominally existing in a very different setting. Hence the claims of Mantic producing GW knockoffs-- it's very clear that many of their products are designed to be used in place of GW models for GW's games.
So you're criticising Mantic for choosing to do an SF race that GW don't do, because they could be used as counts as in their games. That's pretty dumb, as is making a fuss about them doing a football style game set in the future because its like GW's one set in fantasy, and which they don't support anyway. Mantic aren't the first company to do space rats. Perhaps you'd like to complain about them doing Space Dwaves too, as GW don't do them either but as they could be used for GW games they are 'knock offs'. It seems to me that they want to tap into the same market as GW, but are making distinctly different products, specifically offering races that GW don't do. Yet even this counts as GW 'knock offs' because they could be used in each others games.
And you ask why people call you a white knight.
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Post by: Ouze
Honestly some of the reaching in this thread makes me wonder if it's just not masterful trolling, or just flat-out satire. "Sci-Fi Rats in a future space setting? I'll claim they're rip-offs of GWS fantasy/medieval settings rats". They both have tails, right? Trololol!.
Either way, at some point it's just a rolling punchline, really.
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Post by: xraytango
RatBot wrote: Grimtuff wrote:
Of course. Just ask Kingsley to find some examples and he'll conveniently ignore Master Splinter and Roland Rat.
Also the entire series of Redwall novels. I haven't read since middle school, but IIRC the primary antagonists in many of them were rats. Who walked on two legs and talked.
Don't forget Mickey Mouse, Rats of Nimh, D&D Rat-men/Wererats, etc et al ad nauseum.
As well as various rat worshiping ancient religions who added rat heads to human bodies in their artwork and statuary.
GW hasn't introduced anything truly original, merely added a few spinkles and some icing to the same old doughnut.
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Post by: insaniak
Kingsley wrote:The "Veer-myn," however, have many of the exact same æsthetic elements as GW's Skaven. .
That's because anthropomorphic rats in fantasy in general tend to share many of the same aesthetic elements.
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Post by: Alfndrate
Don't forget Brushfire!
Oh wait they came after GW... Oh no! We better make a game to protect our models!
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Post by: RatBot
Uh oh, they've got spears and shields, too. GW probably owns those, too, just like how they own halberds. LAWSUIT!
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Post by: Kingsley
Alfndrate wrote:Don't forget Brushfire!
Oh wait they came after GW... Oh no! We better make a game to protect our models!
These are great examples of anthropomorphic rats that are not derivative of GW's Skaven. Mantic's "Veer-myn," on the other hand, are very different.
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Post by: Las
I think many of you are too quickly dismissing Kingsley's point about GW products being more easy to customize and personalize.
I got back into wargaming after leaving highschool and moving out. Because I wanted to spend the least amount of money on the largest amount of gaming (also I'm a huge history nerd) I dove straight into historicals. I had (and still have) a blast with Flames of War, Napoleonics and Impetus and other ancient rule sets. The tactics were engaging and challenging and the scale of 15mm soldiers was great for the medium. However, as someone who really enjoys writing, modelling and unique paint schemes, I felt a little restrained by constantly having to adhere to historically accurate uniforms and regimental histories. I still love those things, but I wanted minis that felt uniquely mine.
When I started up again, I swore I wouldn't do the GW thing. I had been introduced to the concept of wargaming through 40k as a preteen, loved it and subsequently grew out of it. But after reading a few Abnett novels and rediscovering just how great the setting was, I couldnt help but start an IG army in order to satisfy my modelling, painting and fluff writing cravings. The game itself, while not as tactical as any given historical set, is still a blast and is a nice light way to wargame with those excellent, 28mm, choppable, glue-able sci-fi-fantasy models.
IMO GW offers the most in the way of personalized armies. WM/Hordes are mostly metal (plus if you ask me the gameworld is bland and un-engaging) and things like Kings of War, while a cool concept, just don't have the same scope. Y'all need to check yo selves.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
 Las wrote:I think many of you are too quickly dismissing Kingsley's point about GW products being more easy to customize and personalize.
We're dismissing it because it isn't relevant, not because it isn't true.
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Post by: Las
H.B.M.C. wrote: Las wrote:I think many of you are too quickly dismissing Kingsley's point about GW products being more easy to customize and personalize.
We're dismissing it because it isn't relevant, not because it isn't true.
Well, many in the thread have attacked him for it. I just felt the need to step in and offer a few cents of mine.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
Las wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote: Las wrote:I think many of you are too quickly dismissing Kingsley's point about GW products being more easy to customize and personalize.
We're dismissing it because it isn't relevant, not because it isn't true.
Well, many in the thread have attacked him for it. I just felt the need to step in and offer a few cents of mine.
You mean this bit?
Kingsley wrote:
Sean_OBrien wrote:That situation couldn't possibly last forever, and it didn't. Serious challengers began to rise, such as West End Games and White Wolf publishing, who were producing fun and successful RPGs that started to bite into the D&D pie.
Substitute WEG and White Wolf with PP and Corvus Belli easily enough...or Wyrd...or any number of other companies who are making inroads on the miniature gaming front.
There is no company currently producing a game with Warhammer 40k or Warhammer Fantasy's number of miniatures on the field at once and level of customizability of one's forces, though Dream Forge might be positioned to potentially do so in the future. The fundamental experience of collecting and playing 40k is fairly different from that of most other miniatures games on the market today, unlike the fundamental experience involved with playing D&D versus other roleplaying games.
His claim that the number of miniatures and the level of customizability appears to be tied mostly to options in a kit...since he points to Dream Forge as a potential competitor.
I would point to everything else. You said you didn't like being restrained by historically accurate uniforms and histories? So don't be. You want options - everything else has more options...because nothing else attempts to constrain options like GW do (barring officially sanctioned tournaments). Take your plastic figures from a company like Warlord (cheap, cheap) - Mix in 1 part pig Iron and 1 part Hasslefree and you have some interesting sci-fi troopers. Make them whatever you like.
Snag some figures from Hinterland as a change from historically accurate uniforms and regiments...unless I was doing some form of an exhibition game to show a historical battle - I wouldn't be offended if someone wanted to field a Lace-punk army against my AWI armies. Do a bit of Space 1899 gaming. Get way out into the weeds and play some of the independent rules like Defiance (which is actually able to handle more figures and vehicles on the table than GW in a shorter period of time once you get a handle on the rules). Play a bit of Tomorrow's War with an army of Grymn backed up by some Scrunt locals hammering away at a bug infestation.
If anything GW and their games constrict more than other games do.
Granted the big named companies have a strong style to them - but you still have the GOT which is well suited for Infinity...any number of pulpy figures with Wyrd...Steampunk and a good bit of Fantasy with PP. Those three also favor smaller games - but that isn't by any means true with gaming in general. I like larger miniatures, larger games and lots of vehicles. I haven't plaid a game of 40K in 5 years and I have never plaid a game of WFB. That doesn't stop me from fielding a complete combined arms army once a month or so or putting 200+ elves, griffons, dragons and other beasties on the table to smash things about with a set of fantasy rules.
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Post by: Bullockist
Kingsley wrote:Lanrak wrote:@Kingsley.
Why do Mantic need rules to stop them being sued?
They don't need them, but they provide a good cover story for getting their products distributed. People take a dim view of "we sell GW knockoffs" and a much better view of "we sell models for our own miniatures games," even if those games just so happen to be in the same scale as GW games, represent the same archetypes, and are derivative of GW designs and concepts in every respect.
When Mantic's secret original race was "Skaven in space" and their awesome new game was "Blood Bowl in space" the writing on the wall became very clear to me.
All these companies knocking off GW stuff and i never realised. There are these pink skinned guys in space that many companies sell, GW sold them first and called them humans, now everyone is selling humans and they look almost the same. 
Someone kill me and donate my brain (pieces of it will work better than what they have atm) to some people on dakka.
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Post by: Jehan-reznor
But GW doesn't have skaven in space, so i don't understand your point.
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Post by: insaniak
Las wrote:I think many of you are too quickly dismissing Kingsley's point about GW products being more easy to customize and personalize.
Because for the vast majority of players, it really doesn't make an appreciable difference.
Based on nearly 20 years of playing 40K in a number of different areas, the majority of gamers don't convert in any significant fashion. They either assemble everything straight out of the box, or will at most tinker with a few head or weapon swaps to vary up poses a little... which can be done in pretty much any game out there. So GW's models being plastic making them better for converters is a selling point for a comparitively small part of the market... For many gamers, being plastic and multipart just means that they take longer to assemble.
Painting-wise, people are often a little more adventurous... but again, most games (or at least most scifi and fantasy games) have quite alot of scope for creative painting. Even Warmachine, with it's stricter stance on conversion, allows free reign with colour schemes.
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Post by: carmachu
Las wrote:
IMO GW offers the most in the way of personalized armies. WM/Hordes are mostly metal (plus if you ask me the gameworld is bland and un-engaging) and things like Kings of War, while a cool concept, just don't have the same scope. Y'all need to check yo selves.
Not really. Or I should say, not they way they use to. I'd agure they offer less in the way of personalizing armies today then they did a decade ago or more. I had stacks of white dwarves, citadel journals, a REAL bits service back in the day. An an attitude that it was "make it your own, no matter what parts you used." Hell I recall an article back when prmoting a chaos dread that had something like 50+ parts, non- GW, including parts to car brakes.
The only thing GW offers nowadays is better plastic kits to make stuff. But they are NOT the most in the way of personailzation anymore. GW of old(over a decade ago) was much much better at that.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
One only need look at their photographs in WD and on their website.
GW terrain on GW realm of battle boards. All terrain conversions are kitbashes of their own kits. I get that they want to sell their kits, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it seems to have come at the expensive of creativity (or, at least, non-GW branded creativity).
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Post by: Bullockist
carmachu wrote: Las wrote:
IMO GW offers the most in the way of personalized armies. WM/Hordes are mostly metal (plus if you ask me the gameworld is bland and un-engaging) and things like Kings of War, while a cool concept, just don't have the same scope. Y'all need to check yo selves.
Not really. Or I should say, not they way they use to. I'd agure they offer less in the way of personalizing armies today then they did a decade ago or more. I had stacks of white dwarves, citadel journals, a REAL bits service back in the day. An an attitude that it was "make it your own, no matter what parts you used." Hell I recall an article back when prmoting a chaos dread that had something like 50+ parts, non- GW, including parts to car brakes.
The only thing GW offers nowadays is better plastic kits to make stuff. But they are NOT the most in the way of personailzation anymore. GW of old(over a decade ago) was much much better at that.
I'd have to agree, the idea that GW is better due to personalisation of minis is an illusion. Ive even heard someone say that 40k promotes the creation of fluff and personalised paint schemes over warmachine, i guess someone needss to tell my khador miniatures that.
That said, there is a bigger scope for modelling in 40k due to the way equipment is costed aqnd of course Orks, the shining light of humour in an increadibly angsty universe.
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Post by: Grot 6
silent25 wrote:carmachu wrote:
Thats all great, but the real telling is what were the number of units sold per year?
Not sure that would help. GW was switching to plastic from metal that entire time. A single 10 man box would show up as one unit where two man blisters for the same number would show up as 5 units.
That leads to an interesting theory. Not a defense of GW, but a possible cause of their downfall.
One word: PLASTIC
In almost all cases, when GW would switch from metal to plastic, there would be a price reduction. Suddenly those metal figures at $3 each cost only $2 each in plastic. When the changes first started, that 5 man units of knights that was $33 is now $20, but you don't need 8 - 9 knights, 5 still suffice. GW has lost 40% of their revenue. You may decide to get another unit or a friend starts the game and gets a unit. As long as enough additional purchases were made to make up the difference, GW would make out. But factor in inflation and not enough people buying more of the new plastic units, and GW lost money on that unit conversion. Result GW changes the rules where you now need 8 knights instead of 5 or they raise the price.
Thus the downward spiral begins. The early 2000's saw a lot of RnF units switch to plastic. So players initially saw savings and bought more and new players came in also because the game was becoming more "accessible" and GW was growing by 15 to 18% during that time. But what if that growth wasn't enough to counter act the price reduction for each kit? Eventually GW has reduced prices from switching from metal to plastic where suddenly there aren't enough new players or old players buying stuff to keep the sales increases going? They saturated their market.
Would we be seeing the regular price hikes and increasing unit counts each edition if GW had not made the savings on plastics as much?
Again, not a defense of GW, just a thought on the whole thing.
+1 to this one.
This was going along as GW was retiring blister packs and metal units almost as fast as they could with restructuring the game from 3d to 4th edition.
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Post by: Kingsley
Bullockist wrote: Kingsley wrote:Lanrak wrote:@Kingsley.
Why do Mantic need rules to stop them being sued?
They don't need them, but they provide a good cover story for getting their products distributed. People take a dim view of "we sell GW knockoffs" and a much better view of "we sell models for our own miniatures games," even if those games just so happen to be in the same scale as GW games, represent the same archetypes, and are derivative of GW designs and concepts in every respect.
When Mantic's secret original race was "Skaven in space" and their awesome new game was "Blood Bowl in space" the writing on the wall became very clear to me.
All these companies knocking off GW stuff and i never realised. There are these pink skinned guys in space that many companies sell, GW sold them first and called them humans, now everyone is selling humans and they look almost the same.
Someone kill me and donate my brain (pieces of it will work better than what they have atm) to some people on dakka.
Are you actually trying to say that the Veer-myn are no more influenced by Skaven than any line of human miniatures is influenced by any other line of human miniatures? That conclusion seems laughable.
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Post by: Bullockist
What I am trying to say is ratmen are public domain. Ratmen are not created by GW. Ratmen made by any company are not knockoffs of GW products. they are just ratmen. I was trying to illustrate this point with a bit of faecetious humour.
The point is GW did not invent ratmen, they did not invent beastmen, they did not invent dwarves or elves or dragons or giants or whatever , these things are part of humanities shared heritige given to us by myths and stories , therefore ver-myn (however it's spelt) are not knockoffs of skaven , they are another companies version of ratmen, and they look pretty good.
Seriously, some people seem to think GW invented alot of things, they didn't. They may have appropriated the myth/fiction but they in no way hold any kind of hold over that idea. Just because you saw a miniature from GW first, that looked like a certain thing, does not mean it was the first. I'm sure it was made by ral partha or someone smaller way before GW even thought of ratmen, but that does not make skaven a wererat knockoff, it makes a skaven a GW ratman.
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Post by: TheAuldGrump
Kingsley wrote: lord marcus wrote:Kings of War and Warpath by Mantic games. Both mass combat wargaming, with the encouragement to make your army your own. Hell Mantic has even left space in the game world deliberately so people can make up background!
Those rules (if you can call them that) are largely made as a cover to prevent Mantic from being sued. I've never seen a single person play them and every review I've encountered has been negative.
Can I call them rules?
Let me think about that....
Why, by golly! Yes, I can call them rules! What a shock!
And I can also truthfully say that I think that they are better rules than the two most recent editions of WHFB.
Have I seen 'a single person' play these rules? No - but I have seen a room full of people play them. It kind of takes more than one person to play most games....
As I have seen a lot of positive reviews of KoW... I have to assume that you just don't read much. Or are very seelective of the reviews that you read, just in case they say something good about a non- GW company.
Oy!
There come a point when White Knighting becomes counter productive, that folks will start to take the view that the White Knight never has anything useful to say, and both blinds and deafens himself to avoid seeing the other side of the issues.
The Auld Grump - I play Undead, Dwarfs, and Kingdoms of Men in Kings of War. Twilight Kin, Orcs, Goblins, Abyssal Dwarfs, and Elves all have local players.
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Post by: heartserenade
If GW needs a Public Relations officer, surely Kingsley should be hired on the spot.
Seriously.
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Post by: RogueRegault
 tomjoad wrote:Let us hope or pray, then, that GW follows TSR's next series of steps: Going bankrupt and being bought by a decent gaming company that wants to grow and even *gasp* IMPROVE a product.
Well, considering their brands probably do about half Magic:The Gathering's business, they could probably be bought out by Hasbro and still remain a core product.
The bad would be if they got bought out by Mattel instead.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Kingsley wrote: lord marcus wrote:Kings of War and Warpath by Mantic games. Both mass combat wargaming, with the encouragement to make your army your own. Hell Mantic has even left space in the game world deliberately so people can make up background!
Those rules (if you can call them that) are largely made as a cover to prevent Mantic from being sued. I've never seen a single person play them and every review I've encountered has been negative.
That's strange. The first two reviews that come up on Google are pretty positive.
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/15/15753.phtml
http://minimusingofabear.wordpress.com/2012/02/17/warpath-review/
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Post by: Morachi
How has this thread made it to 9 full pages of Kingsley choc-nosing GW.
This whole thread now reminds me of Monty Pythons "The Life of Brian", where the lad tries to convince the people he isn't the Mesiah.
GW = Unprofessional in a business sense. Period. There is a reason the last decade has been called the "GW Decade of Dickishness".
Great models, completely dodgy business practices. They generate no good will towards the company in any way shape or form. Why else would GW pull down their HQ Facebook pages, disable comments on Youtube and generally police any other means of creating feedback where able? If they have to lock things down like that, they are obviously doing something wrong - if they were doing it right, these measures wouldn't be required.
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Post by: Sir Pseudonymous
Morachi wrote:How has this thread made it to 9 full pages of Kingsley choc-nosing GW.
What's really funny is we have another nine page thread that contains the exact same conversation. I can't even keep track of what was said in which thread...
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Post by: Kilkrazy
There are three threads on the go with nearly identical content:
This one and,
"Has it always been this bad?" and,
"The Surge in the Games Workshop Bashing Threads"
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Post by: Kingsley
Bullockist wrote:What I am trying to say is ratmen are public domain. Ratmen are not created by GW. Ratmen made by any company are not knockoffs of GW products. they are just ratmen. I was trying to illustrate this point with a bit of faecetious humour.
It's not that Mantic made ratmen that makes them knockoffs. It's that Mantic-- a company with a history of making "not- GW" products-- made ratmen designed along the same lines as GW's Skaven, with a very similar visual æsthetic, tons of shared design elements, etc. The fact that Mantic's ratmen are supposed to be sci-fi and GW's Skaven are fantasy makes this even more absurd.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
It makes your argument absurd. You criticise a company for making models that GW doesn't, they are 'knock offs' because they share an aesthetic. Even GW doesn't go as far as to claim their models have some 'aesthetic' that makes them unique. It's such a hopelessly nebulous statement that it could be applied to almost any range of miniatures.
Mantic can't do right according to you. If they were to make figures that fit a GW army you'd criticise them. Instead they make armies that GW specifically do not match any GW army list; SF ratmen and dwarves. Yet you still criticise them, because different as they are, they still apparently tread on the toes of GW's aesthetic and could be used as counts-as.
As for Blood Bowl, I've seen rules and figures for normal realistic football as well, there are several similar rule sets out there. And now there's a futuristic football. Yet you criticise them again for doing something similar to GW, making a similar product yes, but different to appeal to different people. But apparently that's not right because GW did a fantasy football game that they don't support.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Kingsley wrote:Bullockist wrote:What I am trying to say is ratmen are public domain. Ratmen are not created by GW. Ratmen made by any company are not knockoffs of GW products. they are just ratmen. I was trying to illustrate this point with a bit of faecetious humour.
It's not that Mantic made ratmen that makes them knockoffs. It's that Mantic-- a company with a history of making "not- GW" products-- made ratmen designed along the same lines as GW's Skaven, with a very similar visual æsthetic, tons of shared design elements, etc. The fact that Mantic's ratmen are supposed to be sci-fi and GW's Skaven are fantasy makes this even more absurd.
What do you see as the aesthetic bits of Mantic's ratmen they have copied from the GW ratmen? Shared design elements, I mean.
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Post by: FordPrefect
Kingsley wrote:
When Mantic's secret original race was "Skaven in space" and their awesome new game was "Blood Bowl in space" the writing on the wall became very clear to me.
Whilst I haven't played Dreadball so cannot judge how the game play compares to BB, it has always reminded me more of Speedball, at least in terms of aesthetics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speedball_(video_game)
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Post by: Bullockist
Kilkrazy wrote: Kingsley wrote:Bullockist wrote:What I am trying to say is ratmen are public domain. Ratmen are not created by GW. Ratmen made by any company are not knockoffs of GW products. they are just ratmen. I was trying to illustrate this point with a bit of faecetious humour.
It's not that Mantic made ratmen that makes them knockoffs. It's that Mantic-- a company with a history of making "not- GW" products-- made ratmen designed along the same lines as GW's Skaven, with a very similar visual æsthetic, tons of shared design elements, etc. The fact that Mantic's ratmen are supposed to be sci-fi and GW's Skaven are fantasy makes this even more absurd.
What do you see as the aesthetic bits of Mantic's ratmen they have copied from the GW ratmen? Shared design elements, I mean.
KIngsley , GW do not own wargaming, it has been around longer than them. Mantic make fantasy wargaming miniatures, and sci fi and other miniatures. Heaps of companies make miniatures, go check out my best gangers thread see how many companies make gangs or possible gangs. They arent "not-necromunda' minis they are gang minis, admittedly i do mention necromunda once or twice in the thread because that's what i assume most people on dakka would be looking for (personally i'm looking for sprawl gangers).
I think kill krazy,that mantic and gw ratmen share design elements because they are both depictions of ratmen - though ratmen looking like rhinos would be cool.
Kingsley, your one eyedness in regard to GW is truly astounding. I think you should just start saying GW akbar.
oh, I was thinking the exact same thing today ford prefect, i remember playing speedball on the amiga 500, it was awesome.
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Post by: weeble1000
Kingsley wrote:Bullockist wrote:What I am trying to say is ratmen are public domain. Ratmen are not created by GW. Ratmen made by any company are not knockoffs of GW products. they are just ratmen. I was trying to illustrate this point with a bit of faecetious humour.
It's not that Mantic made ratmen that makes them knockoffs. It's that Mantic-- a company with a history of making "not- GW" products-- made ratmen designed along the same lines as GW's Skaven, with a very similar visual æsthetic, tons of shared design elements, etc. The fact that Mantic's ratmen are supposed to be sci-fi and GW's Skaven are fantasy makes this even more absurd.
I wonder where GW got those design elements...giant rat people that are dirty, unorganized, slipshod, cunning, they live underground, scrounge for material...it is almost like they personify attributes associated with RATS or something. You have heard of the term pack rat right?
If someone made rat people that were obsessively clean, lived in tree houses, lived in a utopia, and manufactured sweatpants, THAT would be pretty unique, because it would be distinctly un-ratlike.
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Post by: sourclams
Kingsley, have you read Dune by Frank Herbert?
What do you think about the hojillion GW ripoffs in Dune? I mean, this guy has got all sorts of crap like a God-Emperor, Death Worlds, a 'Navigator' caste, and a fortune-telling Tarot even!
I mean, WTF, right?
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Post by: Alfndrate
Obviously Dune is a licensed Warhammer 40k product >_>
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Post by: darefsky (Flight Medic Paints)
sourclams wrote:Kingsley, have you read Dune by Frank Herbert?
What do you think about the hojillion GW ripoffs in Dune? I mean, this guy has got all sorts of crap like a God-Emperor, Death Worlds, a 'Navigator' caste, and a fortune-telling Tarot even!
I mean, WTF, right?
Alfndrate wrote:Obviously Dune is a licensed Warhammer 40k product >_>
Lets not forget the late great Heinlein's Starship troopers.... lets see Powered Armour? Check, Swarming bugs from space? Check. I promised myself I wouldn't comment in this thread but the absolute absurdity has reached astronomical levels. Seriously GW is not the be all end all of gaming. The rules are pretty weak when you compare them to the other big games, You talk about model count? Ok lets look at a 2500pt GK or a 2500pt MechDar- army vs a 50pt Khador army. I'm fielding about the same amount of models. (not true for orks or IG obviously but then those extra 60 models are just cannon fodder anyway so you get to buy em, paint em, store them, put them on the table just so they can die and be removed so your "real" army can hit the opponent). At the end of the day play what ever you love, If GW goes away oh well. If they stay groovy. The beauty of gaming is that we get to spend time with what we enjoy doing. I love to get a new model/ box of models (its a rush and yes I realize i'm as addicted as a junkie to crack), I get down right giddy about pinning and assembling, and painting is my relaxing time, And finally when they are ready I get to put them on a table and for a few hours I get to have fun with friends and move my little toy mens around and role some dice. I think we all forget the joy of the games, and when GW gets in the way of that enjoyment people get pissed. It's like the old saying "Only the people you care about can really piss you off" if you didn't care you would be indifferent. People get really upset with GW because they are basically destroying a game they love or used to love.
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Post by: FordPrefect
As must the the 2003 onwards series of Battlestar Galactia . . .
After all, they've copied Cyclon Raiders from Necron Doom Scythes
Maybe someone should list all of the shows / books, etc that have copied from GW - their lawyers would have a field day 
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Post by: Alfndrate
Send GW Legal several angry letters about these "IP thieves" and see what happens?
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Post by: Dynamix
Though I am leaning Very heavily toward feeling that there is a massive Troll going on - and amusing it is too regardless of its level of sincerity , I feel I had to feed it with a comment of my own .
Which is so what
So what if the following are actually true . 40K is more customisable , GW price rises are not inflation busting , Mantic models are a deliberate knock-off , Veer-Myn look like Skaven deliberately .
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Post by: carmachu
Kingsley wrote:
It's not that Mantic made ratmen that makes them knockoffs. It's that Mantic-- a company with a history of making "not- GW" products-- made ratmen designed along the same lines as GW's Skaven, with a very similar visual æsthetic, tons of shared design elements, etc. The fact that Mantic's ratmen are supposed to be sci-fi and GW's Skaven are fantasy makes this even more absurd.
Oh please. Are you going to take GW to task for the multitude of items they have ripped off over the years? morlack's chaos star and many many other things? Your outrage is selective on who is copying who.
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Post by: silent25
All this talk of who ripped off what reminds me of what Chris Metzen (lead concept artist for Blizzard) told a new designer at the company;
There is no originality, only spin.
Pretty sure we look back at all these sources you will find there are earlier sources. Rat men/were-rats existed in Japanese folk lore from before the 20th century.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
To copy others is necessary, but to copy oneself is pathetic.
Good artists copy, great artists steal.
Pablo Picasso
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Post by: Grot 6
Kingsley wrote:Bullockist wrote:What I am trying to say is ratmen are public domain. Ratmen are not created by GW. Ratmen made by any company are not knockoffs of GW products. they are just ratmen. I was trying to illustrate this point with a bit of faecetious humour.
It's not that Mantic made ratmen that makes them knockoffs. It's that Mantic-- a company with a history of making "not- GW" products-- made ratmen designed along the same lines as GW's Skaven, with a very similar visual æsthetic, tons of shared design elements, etc. The fact that Mantic's ratmen are supposed to be sci-fi and GW's Skaven are fantasy makes this even more absurd.
Manitc are filling a void. You can lowball them all you want, but Mantic has no issue discussing, interacting and providing feedback and changes in thier games.
Even if some of the minis are off, they make up for it in heart and actually interacting with the player base.
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Post by: blood reaper
You guys should know that HR.Giger and Frank Herbert got in a time machine and stole from GW right? They have a history of creating non-GW creations.
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Post by: Bullockist
You giuys are all ignant as GW is God , GW obviously created everything.
GW AKBAR! (the cry of the over the top white knight)
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Post by: carmachu
silent25 wrote:All this talk of who ripped off what reminds me of what Chris Metzen (lead concept artist for Blizzard) told a new designer at the company;
There is no originality, only spin.
Pretty sure we look back at all these sources you will find there are earlier sources. Rat men/were-rats existed in Japanese folk lore from before the 20th century.
And thats fine. I'd actually agree with that. The problem is K there is complaining about someone ripping of a concept or model from GW and ignoring the multitude of items GW took and used for themselves that had starts elsewhere. That kind of hypocrisy cant be tolerated.
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Post by: TheAuldGrump
weeble1000 wrote: Kingsley wrote:Bullockist wrote:What I am trying to say is ratmen are public domain. Ratmen are not created by GW. Ratmen made by any company are not knockoffs of GW products. they are just ratmen. I was trying to illustrate this point with a bit of faecetious humour.
It's not that Mantic made ratmen that makes them knockoffs. It's that Mantic-- a company with a history of making "not- GW" products-- made ratmen designed along the same lines as GW's Skaven, with a very similar visual æsthetic, tons of shared design elements, etc. The fact that Mantic's ratmen are supposed to be sci-fi and GW's Skaven are fantasy makes this even more absurd.
I wonder where GW got those design elements...giant rat people that are dirty, unorganized, slipshod, cunning, they live underground, scrounge for material...it is almost like they personify attributes associated with RATS or something. You have heard of the term pack rat right?
If someone made rat people that were obsessively clean, lived in tree houses, lived in a utopia, and manufactured sweatpants, THAT would be pretty unique, because it would be distinctly un-ratlike.
Read the Fafhrd & Grey Mouser series by the late Fritz Leiber. The Skaven are pretty definitely taken from the wererats in The Swords of Lankhmar (1968).
And I do not think that the original folks from GW would have had any difficulty admitting that they were paying homage to some of the great sword & sorcery stories written.
Look for the book - not to confirm my my statement, but just because it is a danged good read.
The Auld Grump
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Post by: Bullockist
Is that a good read or a black library style good read?
I've always wanted to read that series. I had some weird AD&D adventure involving a living tower from that universe and it was awesome.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
Fritz Leiber is a great author.
Definitely not black library at all.
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Post by: timetowaste85
Kingsley, if you haven't played KoW yet then you have no right to insult the rules (not that it's going to stop you anyway). I got in on the Mantic models to have a cheaper Warhammer army and only got the rulebook as a bonus from the Kickstarter. Having the book, I decided to try playing KoW, and I've found it to be a much stronger system than Warhammer, but without the crazy bells and whistles. No insane items, no flying rodent gak crazy combos, it's a game based on skill, not list building. And Ratmen have existed since before GW: have you ever read a Dungeons and Dragons novel with Drizzt Do'Urden? Try "The Halfling's Gem"-it contains plenty of Ratmen (albeit 'wererats'), and was published in the early 80s. Rats in space is a different take, and as they spin it, rats are everywhere: why wouldn't they have mutated in space? Radiation likely mutates them, so they harness the power of radiation in their weaponry, including drills and such because SURPRISE: rats burrow and drills are burrowing tools! For something Sci-Fi, it makes 100% total sense. I love GW lore, but good God man, they aren't the only one out there, no matter how much you want to believe they should be. Get over it and grow up.
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Post by: TheAuldGrump
Bullockist wrote:Is that a good read or a black library style good read?
I've always wanted to read that series. I had some weird AD&D adventure involving a living tower from that universe and it was awesome.
A good read good read.
Fritz Leiber was still writing them when I started reading them.
One of the short stories was published in The Dragon Magazine.
The Auld Grump
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Post by: Adam LongWalker
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Post by: Bullockist
 TheAuldGrump wrote:Bullockist wrote:Is that a good read or a black library style good read?
I've always wanted to read that series. I had some weird AD&D adventure involving a living tower from that universe and it was awesome.
A good read good read.
Fritz Leiber was still writing them when I started reading them.
One of the short stories was published in The Dragon Magazine.
The Auld Grump
The auld in your name isn't an exageration is it, I'm trying to decide if grump is one too.
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Post by: Laughing Man
TheAuldGrump wrote:Bullockist wrote:Is that a good read or a black library style good read?
I've always wanted to read that series. I had some weird AD&D adventure involving a living tower from that universe and it was awesome.
A good read good read.
Fritz Leiber was still writing them when I started reading them.
One of the short stories was published in The Dragon Magazine.
The Auld Grump
I remember the days where DnD actually had stats for Fafhrd and the Mouser, along with a couple other characters from the setting. Must go see if I can't dig up a copy of those books...
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Post by: TheAuldGrump
Bullockist wrote: TheAuldGrump wrote:Bullockist wrote:Is that a good read or a black library style good read?
I've always wanted to read that series. I had some weird AD&D adventure involving a living tower from that universe and it was awesome.
A good read good read.
Fritz Leiber was still writing them when I started reading them.
One of the short stories was published in The Dragon Magazine.
The Auld Grump
The auld in your name isn't an exageration is it, I'm trying to decide if grump is one too.
Take a look at my posts about GW... I think that my cognomen will stand on its own after a quick perusal....
The Auld Grump - some of my players recognized my online persona because of my choice of phrasing....
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Post by: Bullockist
 Laughing Man wrote: TheAuldGrump wrote:Bullockist wrote:Is that a good read or a black library style good read?
I've always wanted to read that series. I had some weird AD&D adventure involving a living tower from that universe and it was awesome.
A good read good read.
Fritz Leiber was still writing them when I started reading them.
One of the short stories was published in The Dragon Magazine.
The Auld Grump
I remember the days where DnD actually had stats for Fafhrd and the Mouser, along with a couple other characters from the setting. Must go see if I can't dig up a copy of those books...
Legends and law 2nd edition had heaps of stats for the lankhamar world. the wizards that advised the two, the land orca, the guardians of lankhamar and more. I loved that book. Automatically Appended Next Post: TheAuldGrump wrote:Bullockist wrote: TheAuldGrump wrote:Bullockist wrote:Is that a good read or a black library style good read?
I've always wanted to read that series. I had some weird AD&D adventure involving a living tower from that universe and it was awesome.
A good read good read.
Fritz Leiber was still writing them when I started reading them.
One of the short stories was published in The Dragon Magazine.
The Auld Grump
The auld in your name isn't an exageration is it, I'm trying to decide if grump is one too.
Take a look at my posts about GW... I think that my cognomen will stand on its own after a quick perusal....
The Auld Grump - some of my players recognized my online persona because of my choice of phrasing....
Sometimes i think GW makes all of us feel a little bit auld and grumpy.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
I really have to wonder how much longer this particular strategy will continue to yield any results for GW. I recall back in the late 1990s and early 2000s period... GW worked hard to get stores to carry their products and offered a good level of support for them. Granted, it is another example from the same conference - but it seems to demonstrate for certain that this isn't just a case of one person perceiving the GW crew who were their as obtuse to their needs.
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Post by: skrulnik
Bullockist wrote: Laughing Man wrote: TheAuldGrump wrote:Bullockist wrote:Is that a good read or a black library style good read?
I've always wanted to read that series. I had some weird AD&D adventure involving a living tower from that universe and it was awesome.
A good read good read.
Fritz Leiber was still writing them when I started reading them.
One of the short stories was published in The Dragon Magazine.
The Auld Grump
I remember the days where DnD actually had stats for Fafhrd and the Mouser, along with a couple other characters from the setting. Must go see if I can't dig up a copy of those books...
Legends and law 2nd edition had heaps of stats for the lankhamar world. the wizards that advised the two, the land orca, the guardians of lankhamar and more. I loved that book.
The one I remember was for AD&D, Deities & Demigods. It had Cthulu mythos and Melnibone mythos as well as Nehwon.
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Post by: Kingsley
Bullockist wrote:Kingsley, your one eyedness in regard to GW is truly astounding. I think you should just start saying GW akbar.
I don't have any particular attachment to GW, I once quit all GW games for four or five years, and I frequently criticize them. But the simple fact is that the community here has become so rabidly, crazily anti- GW that I end up looking like their biggest fan by simply not buying into the irrational hate.
 sourclams wrote:Kingsley, have you read Dune by Frank Herbert?
What do you think about the hojillion GW ripoffs in Dune? I mean, this guy has got all sorts of crap like a God-Emperor, Death Worlds, a 'Navigator' caste, and a fortune-telling Tarot even!
I mean, WTF, right?
I have. There is a big difference between taking a concept from a different form of media and taking a concept from a rival company in the same industry. When you get right down to it, nearly every popular sci-fi/steampunk wargame and many a science fiction franchise is derivative of Heinlein's Starship Troopers-- one of the posters/covers for the game Space Marine even paid homage to/ripped off (depending on your perspective) the Starship Troopers cover art!
To be honest, I'm having a hard time believing that people actually consider Mantic in any respect original or creative. Are you really that blinded by hatred of GW? Their reputation as producing only GW knockoffs is very firmly cemented at this point, and seeing people try to deny it is laughable at best.
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Post by: Morachi
Taken from 1d4chan...
"Also worthy of note is Mantic Games who produce Kings of War, a fantasy battle game in a similar vein to Warhammer. The rules system was even written by former GW man Alessio Cavatore and its fast, fluid and a lot more fun than Warhammer. The company is pioneering the use of plastic-resin alloy (or 'restic') as a cost effective alternative to pewter. Oh, and equivalent plastic models cost about HALF what GW charge (e.g. GW High Elf Spearmen (16 models) - £20, Mantic Games Elf Spearmen (20 models) - £13.99). "
Just worth noting there Kingsley. The rage isn't about the fact they may look like products by GW, but that GW by comparison to other companies are generating alot of ill-will in the community. All the points brought up so far have been generally tangents to the real reasons people so aggressively attack GW - and that is directly proportionate to the amount of "ramping up" GW has done recently in cementing their image as the "bad guys".
Also, go have a read here - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/180/519641.page#5496118
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Post by: Surtur
Kingsley wrote:Bullockist wrote:Kingsley, your one eyedness in regard to GW is truly astounding. I think you should just start saying GW akbar.
I don't have any particular attachment to GW, I once quit all GW games for four or five years, and I frequently criticize them. But the simple fact is that the community here has become so rabidly, crazily anti- GW that I end up looking like their biggest fan by simply not buying into the irrational hate.
sourclams wrote:Kingsley, have you read Dune by Frank Herbert?
What do you think about the hojillion GW ripoffs in Dune? I mean, this guy has got all sorts of crap like a God-Emperor, Death Worlds, a 'Navigator' caste, and a fortune-telling Tarot even!
I mean, WTF, right?
I have. There is a big difference between taking a concept from a different form of media and taking a concept from a rival company in the same industry. When you get right down to it, nearly every popular sci-fi/steampunk wargame and many a science fiction franchise is derivative of Heinlein's Starship Troopers-- one of the posters/covers for the game Space Marine even paid homage to/ripped off (depending on your perspective) the Starship Troopers cover art!
To be honest, I'm having a hard time believing that people actually consider Mantic in any respect original or creative. Are you really that blinded by hatred of GW? Their reputation as producing only GW knockoffs is very firmly cemented at this point, and seeing people try to deny it is laughable at best.
You mean like other authors taking ideas from previous authors? Or how Directors take ideas from other directors? Or how musicians take pieces of each other's music? Are you claiming GW is original?
Aside from that, I do believe you're trying to turn the argument right around at people who made NO SUCH CLAIM. Keep tilting at those windmills.
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Post by: wowsmash
Kingsley wrote:Bullockist wrote:Kingsley, your one eyedness in regard to GW is truly astounding. I think you should just start saying GW akbar.
I don't have any particular attachment to GW, I once quit all GW games for four or five years, and I frequently criticize them. But the simple fact is that the community here has become so rabidly, crazily anti- GW that I end up looking like their biggest fan by simply not buying into the irrational hate.
sourclams wrote:Kingsley, have you read Dune by Frank Herbert?
What do you think about the hojillion GW ripoffs in Dune? I mean, this guy has got all sorts of crap like a God-Emperor, Death Worlds, a 'Navigator' caste, and a fortune-telling Tarot even!
I mean, WTF, right?
I have. There is a big difference between taking a concept from a different form of media and taking a concept from a rival company in the same industry. When you get right down to it, nearly every popular sci-fi/steampunk wargame and many a science fiction franchise is derivative of Heinlein's Starship Troopers-- one of the posters/covers for the game Space Marine even paid homage to/ripped off (depending on your perspective) the Starship Troopers cover art!
To be honest, I'm having a hard time believing that people actually consider Mantic in any respect original or creative. Are you really that blinded by hatred of GW? Their reputation as producing only GW knockoffs is very firmly cemented at this point, and seeing people try to deny it is laughable at best.
I think what makes you appear like their greatest fan is more the fact of your selective reading. You see what you want to see and nothing more. You then blam others for not wanting to willing blinding themselves.
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