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 Kingsley wrote:

Bullockist wrote:
What I am trying to say is ratmen are public domain. Ratmen are not created by GW. Ratmen made by any company are not knockoffs of GW products. they are just ratmen. I was trying to illustrate this point with a bit of faecetious humour.

It's not that Mantic made ratmen that makes them knockoffs. It's that Mantic-- a company with a history of making "not-GW" products-- made ratmen designed along the same lines as GW's Skaven, with a very similar visual æsthetic, tons of shared design elements, etc. The fact that Mantic's ratmen are supposed to be sci-fi and GW's Skaven are fantasy makes this even more absurd.

I wonder where GW got those design elements...giant rat people that are dirty, unorganized, slipshod, cunning, they live underground, scrounge for material...it is almost like they personify attributes associated with RATS or something. You have heard of the term pack rat right?

If someone made rat people that were obsessively clean, lived in tree houses, lived in a utopia, and manufactured sweatpants, THAT would be pretty unique, because it would be distinctly un-ratlike.

Kingsley, have you read Dune by Frank Herbert?

What do you think about the hojillion GW ripoffs in Dune? I mean, this guy has got all sorts of crap like a God-Emperor, Death Worlds, a 'Navigator' caste, and a fortune-telling Tarot even!

I mean, WTF, right?

Obviously Dune is a licensed Warhammer 40k product >_>

sourclams wrote:Kingsley, have you read Dune by Frank Herbert?

What do you think about the hojillion GW ripoffs in Dune? I mean, this guy has got all sorts of crap like a God-Emperor, Death Worlds, a 'Navigator' caste, and a fortune-telling Tarot even!

I mean, WTF, right?

Alfndrate wrote:Obviously Dune is a licensed Warhammer 40k product >_>

Lets not forget the late great Heinlein's Starship troopers.... lets see Powered Armour? Check, Swarming bugs from space? Check.

I promised myself I wouldn't comment in this thread but the absolute absurdity has reached astronomical levels.

Seriously GW is not the be all end all of gaming. The rules are pretty weak when you compare them to the other big games, You talk about model count? Ok lets look at a 2500pt GK or a 2500pt MechDar- army vs a 50pt Khador army. I'm fielding about the same amount of models. (not true for orks or IG obviously but then those extra 60 models are just cannon fodder anyway so you get to buy em, paint em, store them, put them on the table just so they can die and be removed so your "real" army can hit the opponent).

At the end of the day play what ever you love, If GW goes away oh well. If they stay groovy. The beauty of gaming is that we get to spend time with what we enjoy doing.

I love to get a new model/ box of models (its a rush and yes I realize i'm as addicted as a junkie to crack), I get down right giddy about pinning and assembling, and painting is my relaxing time, And finally when they are ready I get to put them on a table and for a few hours I get to have fun with friends and move my little toy mens around and role some dice.

I think we all forget the joy of the games, and when GW gets in the way of that enjoyment people get pissed. It's like the old saying "Only the people you care about can really piss you off" if you didn't care you would be indifferent. People get really upset with GW because they are basically destroying a game they love or used to love.

 Alfndrate wrote:
Obviously Dune is a licensed Warhammer 40k product >_>

As must the the 2003 onwards series of Battlestar Galactia . . .
After all, they've copied Cyclon Raiders from Necron Doom Scythes

Maybe someone should list all of the shows / books, etc that have copied from GW - their lawyers would have a field day

Send GW Legal several angry letters about these "IP thieves" and see what happens?

Though I am leaning Very heavily toward feeling that there is a massive Troll going on - and amusing it is too regardless of its level of sincerity , I feel I had to feed it with a comment of my own .

Which is so what

So what if the following are actually true . 40K is more customisable , GW price rises are not inflation busting , Mantic models are a deliberate knock-off , Veer-Myn look like Skaven deliberately .

 Kingsley wrote:


It's not that Mantic made ratmen that makes them knockoffs. It's that Mantic-- a company with a history of making "not-GW" products-- made ratmen designed along the same lines as GW's Skaven, with a very similar visual æsthetic, tons of shared design elements, etc. The fact that Mantic's ratmen are supposed to be sci-fi and GW's Skaven are fantasy makes this even more absurd.

Oh please. Are you going to take GW to task for the multitude of items they have ripped off over the years? morlack's chaos star and many many other things? Your outrage is selective on who is copying who.

All this talk of who ripped off what reminds me of what Chris Metzen (lead concept artist for Blizzard) told a new designer at the company;
There is no originality, only spin.

Pretty sure we look back at all these sources you will find there are earlier sources. Rat men/were-rats existed in Japanese folk lore from before the 20th century.

To copy others is necessary, but to copy oneself is pathetic.

Good artists copy, great artists steal.

Pablo Picasso

 Kingsley wrote:

Bullockist wrote:
What I am trying to say is ratmen are public domain. Ratmen are not created by GW. Ratmen made by any company are not knockoffs of GW products. they are just ratmen. I was trying to illustrate this point with a bit of faecetious humour.

It's not that Mantic made ratmen that makes them knockoffs. It's that Mantic-- a company with a history of making "not-GW" products-- made ratmen designed along the same lines as GW's Skaven, with a very similar visual æsthetic, tons of shared design elements, etc. The fact that Mantic's ratmen are supposed to be sci-fi and GW's Skaven are fantasy makes this even more absurd.

Manitc are filling a void. You can lowball them all you want, but Mantic has no issue discussing, interacting and providing feedback and changes in thier games.

Even if some of the minis are off, they make up for it in heart and actually interacting with the player base.

You guys should know that HR.Giger and Frank Herbert got in a time machine and stole from GW right? They have a history of creating non-GW creations.

You giuys are all ignant as GW is God , GW obviously created everything.

GW AKBAR! (the cry of the over the top white knight)

silent25 wrote:
All this talk of who ripped off what reminds me of what Chris Metzen (lead concept artist for Blizzard) told a new designer at the company;
There is no originality, only spin.

Pretty sure we look back at all these sources you will find there are earlier sources. Rat men/were-rats existed in Japanese folk lore from before the 20th century.

And thats fine. I'd actually agree with that. The problem is K there is complaining about someone ripping of a concept or model from GW and ignoring the multitude of items GW took and used for themselves that had starts elsewhere. That kind of hypocrisy cant be tolerated.

weeble1000 wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

Bullockist wrote:
What I am trying to say is ratmen are public domain. Ratmen are not created by GW. Ratmen made by any company are not knockoffs of GW products. they are just ratmen. I was trying to illustrate this point with a bit of faecetious humour.

It's not that Mantic made ratmen that makes them knockoffs. It's that Mantic-- a company with a history of making "not-GW" products-- made ratmen designed along the same lines as GW's Skaven, with a very similar visual æsthetic, tons of shared design elements, etc. The fact that Mantic's ratmen are supposed to be sci-fi and GW's Skaven are fantasy makes this even more absurd.

I wonder where GW got those design elements...giant rat people that are dirty, unorganized, slipshod, cunning, they live underground, scrounge for material...it is almost like they personify attributes associated with RATS or something. You have heard of the term pack rat right?

If someone made rat people that were obsessively clean, lived in tree houses, lived in a utopia, and manufactured sweatpants, THAT would be pretty unique, because it would be distinctly un-ratlike.

Read the Fafhrd & Grey Mouser series by the late Fritz Leiber. The Skaven are pretty definitely taken from the wererats in The Swords of Lankhmar (1968).

And I do not think that the original folks from GW would have had any difficulty admitting that they were paying homage to some of the great sword & sorcery stories written.

Look for the book - not to confirm my my statement, but just because it is a danged good read.

The Auld Grump

Is that a good read or a black library style good read?

I've always wanted to read that series. I had some weird AD&D adventure involving a living tower from that universe and it was awesome.

Fritz Leiber is a great author.

Definitely not black library at all.

Kingsley, if you haven't played KoW yet then you have no right to insult the rules (not that it's going to stop you anyway). I got in on the Mantic models to have a cheaper Warhammer army and only got the rulebook as a bonus from the Kickstarter. Having the book, I decided to try playing KoW, and I've found it to be a much stronger system than Warhammer, but without the crazy bells and whistles. No insane items, no flying rodent gak crazy combos, it's a game based on skill, not list building. And Ratmen have existed since before GW: have you ever read a Dungeons and Dragons novel with Drizzt Do'Urden? Try "The Halfling's Gem"-it contains plenty of Ratmen (albeit 'wererats'), and was published in the early 80s. Rats in space is a different take, and as they spin it, rats are everywhere: why wouldn't they have mutated in space? Radiation likely mutates them, so they harness the power of radiation in their weaponry, including drills and such because SURPRISE: rats burrow and drills are burrowing tools! For something Sci-Fi, it makes 100% total sense. I love GW lore, but good God man, they aren't the only one out there, no matter how much you want to believe they should be. Get over it and grow up.

Bullockist wrote:
Is that a good read or a black library style good read?

I've always wanted to read that series. I had some weird AD&D adventure involving a living tower from that universe and it was awesome.

A good read good read.

Fritz Leiber was still writing them when I started reading them.

One of the short stories was published in The Dragon Magazine.

The Auld Grump

Looks like another Game store owner had a similar situation with GW

http://www.houseofpaincakes.com/2013/04/musings-of-game-store-owner-word-from.html#more

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

Bullockist wrote:
Is that a good read or a black library style good read?

I've always wanted to read that series. I had some weird AD&D adventure involving a living tower from that universe and it was awesome.

A good read good read.

Fritz Leiber was still writing them when I started reading them.

One of the short stories was published in The Dragon Magazine.

The Auld Grump

The auld in your name isn't an exageration is it, I'm trying to decide if grump is one too.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

Bullockist wrote:
Is that a good read or a black library style good read?

I've always wanted to read that series. I had some weird AD&D adventure involving a living tower from that universe and it was awesome.

A good read good read.

Fritz Leiber was still writing them when I started reading them.

One of the short stories was published in The Dragon Magazine.

The Auld Grump

I remember the days where DnD actually had stats for Fafhrd and the Mouser, along with a couple other characters from the setting. Must go see if I can't dig up a copy of those books...

Bullockist wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

Bullockist wrote:
Is that a good read or a black library style good read?

I've always wanted to read that series. I had some weird AD&D adventure involving a living tower from that universe and it was awesome.

A good read good read.

Fritz Leiber was still writing them when I started reading them.

One of the short stories was published in The Dragon Magazine.

The Auld Grump

The auld in your name isn't an exageration is it, I'm trying to decide if grump is one too.

Take a look at my posts about GW... I think that my cognomen will stand on its own after a quick perusal....

The Auld Grump - some of my players recognized my online persona because of my choice of phrasing....

 Laughing Man wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

Bullockist wrote:
Is that a good read or a black library style good read?

I've always wanted to read that series. I had some weird AD&D adventure involving a living tower from that universe and it was awesome.

A good read good read.

Fritz Leiber was still writing them when I started reading them.

One of the short stories was published in The Dragon Magazine.

The Auld Grump

I remember the days where DnD actually had stats for Fafhrd and the Mouser, along with a couple other characters from the setting. Must go see if I can't dig up a copy of those books...

Legends and law 2nd edition had heaps of stats for the lankhamar world. the wizards that advised the two, the land orca, the guardians of lankhamar and more. I loved that book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

Bullockist wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

Bullockist wrote:
Is that a good read or a black library style good read?

I've always wanted to read that series. I had some weird AD&D adventure involving a living tower from that universe and it was awesome.

A good read good read.

Fritz Leiber was still writing them when I started reading them.

One of the short stories was published in The Dragon Magazine.

The Auld Grump

The auld in your name isn't an exageration is it, I'm trying to decide if grump is one too.

Take a look at my posts about GW... I think that my cognomen will stand on its own after a quick perusal....

The Auld Grump - some of my players recognized my online persona because of my choice of phrasing....

Sometimes i think GW makes all of us feel a little bit auld and grumpy.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:
Looks like another Game store owner had a similar situation with GW

http://www.houseofpaincakes.com/2013/04/musings-of-game-store-owner-word-from.html#more

I really have to wonder how much longer this particular strategy will continue to yield any results for GW. I recall back in the late 1990s and early 2000s period...GW worked hard to get stores to carry their products and offered a good level of support for them. Granted, it is another example from the same conference - but it seems to demonstrate for certain that this isn't just a case of one person perceiving the GW crew who were their as obtuse to their needs.

Bullockist wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

Bullockist wrote:
Is that a good read or a black library style good read?

I've always wanted to read that series. I had some weird AD&D adventure involving a living tower from that universe and it was awesome.

A good read good read.

Fritz Leiber was still writing them when I started reading them.

One of the short stories was published in The Dragon Magazine.

The Auld Grump

I remember the days where DnD actually had stats for Fafhrd and the Mouser, along with a couple other characters from the setting. Must go see if I can't dig up a copy of those books...

Legends and law 2nd edition had heaps of stats for the lankhamar world. the wizards that advised the two, the land orca, the guardians of lankhamar and more. I loved that book.

The one I remember was for AD&D, Deities & Demigods. It had Cthulu mythos and Melnibone mythos as well as Nehwon.

Bullockist wrote:Kingsley, your one eyedness in regard to GW is truly astounding. I think you should just start saying GW akbar.

I don't have any particular attachment to GW, I once quit all GW games for four or five years, and I frequently criticize them. But the simple fact is that the community here has become so rabidly, crazily anti-GW that I end up looking like their biggest fan by simply not buying into the irrational hate.

 sourclams wrote:
Kingsley, have you read Dune by Frank Herbert?

What do you think about the hojillion GW ripoffs in Dune? I mean, this guy has got all sorts of crap like a God-Emperor, Death Worlds, a 'Navigator' caste, and a fortune-telling Tarot even!

I mean, WTF, right?

I have. There is a big difference between taking a concept from a different form of media and taking a concept from a rival company in the same industry. When you get right down to it, nearly every popular sci-fi/steampunk wargame and many a science fiction franchise is derivative of Heinlein's Starship Troopers-- one of the posters/covers for the game Space Marine even paid homage to/ripped off (depending on your perspective) the Starship Troopers cover art!

To be honest, I'm having a hard time believing that people actually consider Mantic in any respect original or creative. Are you really that blinded by hatred of GW? Their reputation as producing only GW knockoffs is very firmly cemented at this point, and seeing people try to deny it is laughable at best.

Taken from 1d4chan...

"Also worthy of note is Mantic Games who produce Kings of War, a fantasy battle game in a similar vein to Warhammer. The rules system was even written by former GW man Alessio Cavatore and its fast, fluid and a lot more fun than Warhammer. The company is pioneering the use of plastic-resin alloy (or 'restic') as a cost effective alternative to pewter. Oh, and equivalent plastic models cost about HALF what GW charge (e.g. GW High Elf Spearmen (16 models) - £20, Mantic Games Elf Spearmen (20 models) - £13.99). "

Just worth noting there Kingsley. The rage isn't about the fact they may look like products by GW, but that GW by comparison to other companies are generating alot of ill-will in the community. All the points brought up so far have been generally tangents to the real reasons people so aggressively attack GW - and that is directly proportionate to the amount of "ramping up" GW has done recently in cementing their image as the "bad guys".

Also, go have a read here - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/180/519641.page#5496118

 Kingsley wrote:

Bullockist wrote:Kingsley, your one eyedness in regard to GW is truly astounding. I think you should just start saying GW akbar.

I don't have any particular attachment to GW, I once quit all GW games for four or five years, and I frequently criticize them. But the simple fact is that the community here has become so rabidly, crazily anti-GW that I end up looking like their biggest fan by simply not buying into the irrational hate.

 sourclams wrote:
Kingsley, have you read Dune by Frank Herbert?

What do you think about the hojillion GW ripoffs in Dune? I mean, this guy has got all sorts of crap like a God-Emperor, Death Worlds, a 'Navigator' caste, and a fortune-telling Tarot even!

I mean, WTF, right?

I have. There is a big difference between taking a concept from a different form of media and taking a concept from a rival company in the same industry. When you get right down to it, nearly every popular sci-fi/steampunk wargame and many a science fiction franchise is derivative of Heinlein's Starship Troopers-- one of the posters/covers for the game Space Marine even paid homage to/ripped off (depending on your perspective) the Starship Troopers cover art!

To be honest, I'm having a hard time believing that people actually consider Mantic in any respect original or creative. Are you really that blinded by hatred of GW? Their reputation as producing only GW knockoffs is very firmly cemented at this point, and seeing people try to deny it is laughable at best.

You mean like other authors taking ideas from previous authors? Or how Directors take ideas from other directors? Or how musicians take pieces of each other's music? Are you claiming GW is original?

Aside from that, I do believe you're trying to turn the argument right around at people who made NO SUCH CLAIM. Keep tilting at those windmills.

 Kingsley wrote:

Bullockist wrote:Kingsley, your one eyedness in regard to GW is truly astounding. I think you should just start saying GW akbar.

I don't have any particular attachment to GW, I once quit all GW games for four or five years, and I frequently criticize them. But the simple fact is that the community here has become so rabidly, crazily anti-GW that I end up looking like their biggest fan by simply not buying into the irrational hate.

 sourclams wrote:
Kingsley, have you read Dune by Frank Herbert?

What do you think about the hojillion GW ripoffs in Dune? I mean, this guy has got all sorts of crap like a God-Emperor, Death Worlds, a 'Navigator' caste, and a fortune-telling Tarot even!

I mean, WTF, right?

I have. There is a big difference between taking a concept from a different form of media and taking a concept from a rival company in the same industry. When you get right down to it, nearly every popular sci-fi/steampunk wargame and many a science fiction franchise is derivative of Heinlein's Starship Troopers-- one of the posters/covers for the game Space Marine even paid homage to/ripped off (depending on your perspective) the Starship Troopers cover art!

To be honest, I'm having a hard time believing that people actually consider Mantic in any respect original or creative. Are you really that blinded by hatred of GW? Their reputation as producing only GW knockoffs is very firmly cemented at this point, and seeing people try to deny it is laughable at best.

I think what makes you appear like their greatest fan is more the fact of your selective reading. You see what you want to see and nothing more. You then blam others for not wanting to willing blinding themselves.