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Playing hardball in a hardball world?

No. It's called failing to adapt in an increasingly digital and interconnected age. It's desperately trying to hold onto a sales model that was appropriate throughout the 80's and 90's but has become obsolete.

 Kingsley wrote:
As for good things that GW has done in the last short period, they're pretty easy to find:

-Vast, constant improvement in sprue design, density of parts on a sprue, and overall fit. This in turn enables kits to come with far more bitz and customization options. Compare the new Pathfinders to the Fire Warriors, for instance. Or compare 3rd edition Tactical Marines to 4th edition Tactical Marines to Devastators to the Stormtalon to get a more detailed view of how things have shifted over time.

I would agree with this. The sprue thing still has the occasional throwback, but by and large the amount of gubbins that they are chucking on their makes happy happen in this converters head.

-Release of 5th and 6th edition, IMO the best editions of 40k yet.

I'm a little torn on this one. 5th edition was awesome. 6th edition is fun... but suffers from some absolutely appalling rules writing. It's a return to the days of GW thinking that since they don't see their game as being intended for competitive play, they don't need to put too much effort into writing clear rules.

-Rules put into White Dwarf again (this is something the community has been requesting for years)

Yup, great idea. Except that with the lowered production numbers of White Dwarf due to not having any actual content for so long, those issues that were actually worth buying sold out really quickly, and those rules were then unavailable to anyone else who wanted them, as opposed to previously when GW used to make back issues available for years after publication, or put the rules up for download a couple of months after the WD issue had gone out.

And, of course, there's the reported decision to stop publishing rules again, due to the complaints received from those people who couldn't get them... because cutting off their own noses to spite their faces is clearly the better option than going back to making the rules available to all...

-Accelerated release schedule updating people's armies to the new edition at a greatly increased pace

Yeah, that worked out really well for people wanting to buy the new Tau models. Or anyone who bought the Dark Angels codex expecting that a codex finished more than a year prior to release would actually have been proof-read at some point...

-Forge World putting out Horus Heresy books and units (again something that has been requested for years)

Yup, Forgeworld rock.

-Excellent video game tie-ins

Dawn of War was a while back. Warhammer Online was a bit of a fizzer, as was Bloodbowl from everything I've heard. And Space Marine was pretty, but ultimately a little dull.

-Re-release of Space Hulk

...as a limited edition...

-Availability of digital Codexes

...to half of the tablet market, because they chose to go with a proprietry format full of features that nobody needed or asked for instead of a basic ebook that would have been usable by everyone with a tablet of any kind, or a smartphone, or a laptop, or a desktop computer...

Oh, and there's the price-jump due to digital books apparently being more expensive to produce if the physical version of the product is a hardcover...

-Increased pace of FAQ/errata release resolving many important questions

Because releasing errata is much easier than just editing the book sometime during that year that you'rehanging onto it before release...

-Better-written books limiting the need for FAQ/errata in the first place (quote from Yakface on a thread collecting questions about the new Tau: "I guess this codex is pretty darn well written because it seems as though the vast majority of the questions being submitted are simply:

The rules are crystal clear, but is that REALLY what you mean by those rules?

One codex does not a trend create.

You skipped the one from '90 or '91:

Good news! We are releasing more units in plastic, and passing the savings on to you!

 Desubot wrote:


Quality of plastic sculpts i feel went up alot of the newer models are muuuuch easier to build and a lot of customizable parts make for happy converters.

that's all i got :/

Yes but they had to- GW took away the bits service so you couldnt get the bits as needed to convert models like we use to. So its a wash there- some of us converters use to use alot more bits when we could get the exact bit or sprue instead of buying kits.

JWhex wrote:
I bet if GW had much lower prices a lot of these other complaints would go away. The price vs quality issue is the only issue that effects whether or not I buy something from GW and I bet it is the same for the majority of past and present GW customers. At this time I only buy the absolute bare minnimum of GW product to keep my hobby going because I just think the price to quality ratio is over the moon in a bad way.

A number of things that people have complained about in this thread and others strike me as coming from someone that is just not being realistic. Other things I find to be rather nonconsequential.

From the decade of dickishness list

1. GW going to one man stores and not supplying free paints and closing at lunch time. So what, if they need to cut costs then reducing the number of employees is the first step companies always take. No longer giving out free supplies? LOL buy your own stuff, I dont know any other businesses that routinely give out free supplies. Why is closing for lunch considered to be "dickishness". Just because the internet is open 24/7 doesnt mean everything else needs to be. That someone would complain about a store being closed at lunch time just shows a desperate attempt at reaching for straws.

The point here is that GW have stated they want to restrict online businesses because Brick and Mortar stores offer far more, yet are removing those "far more" value adds - going in a backwards direction. The fact that they've reduced the stores to a one man model then means that when the lunch time surge hits, no one is there to manage the store and take the dollars. It's not the being closed for lunch that is diskish, its that some poor bastard misses out on sales because he's the only bugger there.

2. Barring of online sales. This isnt being dickish this is just playing hardball in a hardball world. GW doesnt owe anyone adherence to a particular model of how they sell and distribute their products. They are making the stuff so they have every right to sell it as they please. As long as they are not breaking any laws I really could not be bothered to care about it. You may not like their policy and it may not seem fair, but they still have every right to set their own policy and succeed or fail on its merits.

Online sales are a COMPLIMENT to Brick and Mortar stores, and given most of the sales are done through distributors, they are cutting their nose despite their face in this regard - and it will show. They are alienating their distributors and retailers in kind. Yes they have every right to do as they please, doesn't make it any less dickish.

3. Social Media withdrawal. LOL, really who gives a fig. Social media is just used as an advertising tool by companies that bother with it. Zero impact on gamers because GW took its ball and went home.

The fact they withdrew is very clear evidence they KNOW what they are doing is wrong and don't want to hear the complaints. There is an impact on gamers because those who have invested alot of money now lose faith in the thought of being heard - where as a decent company would at the very least respond with their justification and try to lay aside any fears that someones investment in the hobby is going to be less valued.

4. Finecast debacle. This is purely an issue of price related to quality. The QC issues are incompetence not dickishness and I doubt that GW planned for it to be a fiasco. From a business perspective if GW can pry a huge amount of money from its customers for a resin figure, you can hardly blame them for trying. The proper response to this is to just not buy any finecast products, I have numerous fantasy and 40k armies and have purchased ZERO finecast models.

The sad thing is that enough people have bought finecast models to send the signal to GW that their pricing and QC is good enough for customers.

There are many who believe the introduction of Finecast was another attempt at jacking up prices. When they went from lead/pewter to white metal - ironically because of the toxins - and incurred a 25% increase... now they are going back to a medium that is riddled with toxins... making money is one thing, doing this after stating the last material change was to "protect people" sends a clear message that protecting anyone was just marketing spin. Again, dickish.

5. Trade Show. GW embarassed themselves at a trade show. So what? Its not like anyone going to the show had an expectation that GW was going to suddenly reverse policy and tell them about forthcoming products. Incompetence, yes, purposeful screwing around people, not likely.

It was the observed attitude that counts towards dickishness. This is now a theme at distributor/retailer events from what i'm reading.

Elsewhere

Closing GW forums: Those forums were crap, good riddance, there are plenty of forums around.

White Dwarf turned into GAK: So dont buy it. The audience is obviously 12 year olds so if you pay $10 for a crappy magazine its on you. The first issue of WD I bought on the newstand was number 100 and I have a huge collection that I stopped adding to a few years ago. The fact that it is crap doesnt do anything bad to the hobby because there are more good articles on the internet than ever found their way into the WD. The White Dwarf is an anachronism, its a zombie, its long dead but hasnt realized it yet.

Are you completely missing the point here? The point is to illustrate that their business practices are less than one would expect from what was once a reputable company. The point is that people are GOING to the internet because the products/business decisions are rubbish (in saying that the models are nice, but WD really needs to check itself). People who had subscriptions were finding what they had paid money for was turning into nothing more than a $12 catalog. Likewise, a GW forum was seen as a DIRECT link to GW for reputable information and a means to have the community voice heard - by shutting it down they have effectively said "Not interested in your opinion" aka we don't give a gak about "the hobby", just your cash... not a good ethos to portray to your customers. If you run a business, one of the factors that make it successful is the fact the staff are passionate about the product and they want people to want it... GW are just portraying themselves as a "meh, gimme your cash", company that has little to no interest in what the community actually wants - not listening to the market by putting your head in the sand is just plain dickish behaviour, especially the way GW have done it.

Tournament Support: It would be nice if GW still supported tournaments, but they dont and where there is demand a supply is usually found. There are plenty of tournaments anywhere the hobby has a good population of players.

I like how you talk yet say nothing. Thought of a career in politics?

I hope they get bought by WoTC when their assets are sold.

I'm kind of curious as to what FFG would do if they were ever allowed to write the rules system and Codex/Army books. If their RPG stuff is anything to go by I reckon they'd do very well.

 TheMostSlyFox wrote:
I hope they get bought by Hasbro when their assets are sold.

Fixed that for you. Remember, WotC is a subsidiary of Hasbro. Has been for over a decade now.

Been a while, but I recall hearing a story that Hasbro approached GW about buying them during the LotR bubble and GW laughed at them.

Wonder who is laughing now?

Of course I might have heard it here and am simply echoing it.

 Morachi wrote:
I'm kind of curious as to what FFG would do if they were ever allowed to write the rules system and Codex/Army books. If their RPG stuff is anything to go by I reckon they'd do very well.

I trust FFG's ability to balance a competitive game substantially more than I trust GW's ability to do so. However, I'm much less confident in FFG's ability to design cool model lines or do any of the other elements of the hobby.

What if they absorbed some of the design team for that purpose?

 Kingsley wrote:

 Morachi wrote:
I'm kind of curious as to what FFG would do if they were ever allowed to write the rules system and Codex/Army books. If their RPG stuff is anything to go by I reckon they'd do very well.

I trust FFG's ability to balance a competitive game substantially more than I trust GW's ability to do so. However, I'm much less confident in FFG's ability to design cool model lines or do any of the other elements of the hobby.

Those are two separate areas of competence. GW could keep on making the models and outsource the rules to FFG. The fluff could be outsourced to professional novelists.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

 Morachi wrote:
I'm kind of curious as to what FFG would do if they were ever allowed to write the rules system and Codex/Army books. If their RPG stuff is anything to go by I reckon they'd do very well.

I trust FFG's ability to balance a competitive game substantially more than I trust GW's ability to do so. However, I'm much less confident in FFG's ability to design cool model lines or do any of the other elements of the hobby.

Those are two separate areas of competence. GW could keep on making the models and outsource the rules to FFG. The fluff could be outsourced to professional novelists.

If only...

I don't actually think the rules are that bad, at least within the context of a core concept that is arguably archaic and unsophisticated. After all, GW have had over 30 years to work on improving the system. They have shown no desire to make a paradigm shift, but they have tweaked and adjusted the system quite an amount.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I don't actually think the rules are that bad, at least within the context of a core concept that is arguably archaic and unsophisticated. After all, GW have had over 30 years to work on improving the system. They have shown no desire to make a paradigm shift, but they have tweaked and adjusted the system quite an amount.

I don't think GW's rules are that bad either-- 6e strikes me as the most balanced and tactically interesting edition yet-- but I do think there's room for improvement.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
GW could keep on making the models and outsource the rules to FFG. The fluff could be outsourced to professional novelists.

Yes please!

"I can make so many improvements!" - Ork Mad Dok, Dawn of War

It's 1v30 right now in this thread - props to him for standing up for the middle ground and what he believes in - but hedoesn't make any strong arguments. I'm seeing a ton of ducking for cover and misdirection.

 heartserenade wrote:

5. Saying that KoW rules sucked and internet reviews agree (or at least call it "meh"), while a simple google search will reveal that it is full of good and positive feedback.

That's one of the many points Kinglsy dodges



- I agreed with basically everything in this thread - jumped over to KoW and Hordes right now

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
GW could keep on making the models and outsource the rules to FFG. The fluff could be outsourced to professional novelists.

Yes please!

"I can make so many improvements!" - Ork Mad Dok, Dawn of War

So basically return to their original business model?

 Kingsley wrote:

-Vast, constant improvement in sprue design, density of parts on a sprue, and overall fit. This in turn enables kits to come with far more bitz and customization options. Compare the new Pathfinders to the Fire Warriors, for instance. Or compare 3rd edition Tactical Marines to 4th edition Tactical Marines to Devastators to the Stormtalon to get a more detailed view of how things have shifted over time.

.

No arguments here. GW do pretty good plastic kits. When it comes to converting my Infinity and Privateer models, i tend to reach for GW sprues.

 Kingsley wrote:

-Release of 5th and 6th edition, IMO the best editions of 40k yet.
.

as you say, your opinion. 5th made me (and many others) drop 40k, and i've not seen anything in sixth that would draw me back in. I view both editions as a step sideways, instead of a step forward, as both continue GWs basic policy of "changing" the game, rather than "improving" it. Add to this a further cynical approach of each edition pushing a certain style of play opposed to the previous edition.
As a further counter to this point, put up a thread on any 40k forum asking what folks' favourite edition was and there is no consensus. Some like RT, some like 2nd, others third, fourth, fifth or sixth. THere is no consensus on the "best edition". Now, go and look at other games. Privateer Press did a worldwide fieldtest for their warmachine, and hordes mk2 rules. players got to feed their input into the process. And overall, mk2 is a vastly superior beast in every way, shape and form to mk1. this is "improvement". What GW does, (rightly or wrongly, and no opinion here is right or wrong) is less "improvement" and more "change".

 Kingsley wrote:

-Rules put into White Dwarf again (this is something the community has been requesting for years)
.

Debateable. I remember the game back in third, when every faction, and sub faction had their own white dwarf, and chapter approved minidex. White scars instantly come to mind, and there were plenty others. In my opinion, all it added to the game was clutter. you ended up bringing your own weight in FAQs and white dwarfs to tourneys to know what every subfaction could do. No, everything getting their own unique individual rules, whilst nice in theory was simply indicative of a lack of discipline on the part of the design studio (an opinion shared by Pete Haines actually) simply bogged down the game. Far better the approach with eldar where the one codex could be tweaked to represent all the craftworlds, rather than requiring an individual set of rules for each.

 Kingsley wrote:

-Excellent video game tie-ins

So GW designed Dawn of War, and Space Marine? All GW did was licence a product with their name. the other companies did the hard work on making games. No, im afraid GW get no credit here. THQ do. And then there are other licensed products. How about ultramarine? A bit of fun, for sure, but hardly indicative of somethingbrilliant.

 Kingsley wrote:

-Re-release of Space Hulk
.

limited release spoiled this.

 Kingsley wrote:

-Availability of digital Codexes
.

decent, but poorly implemented.

 Kingsley wrote:

-Increased pace of FAQ/errata release resolving many important questions
.

from everything i've heard though, there still remain a lot of ambiguities. WHen they get to the level of Privateer Press FAQs, they're doing good. but im afriad PP are the leaders in this race.

 Kingsley wrote:

-Better-written books limiting the need for FAQ/errata in the first place (quote from Yakface on a thread collecting questions about the new Tau: "I guess this codex is pretty darn well written because it seems as though the vast majority of the questions being submitted are simply:
.

i disagree here with the comment about them being better written books. Companies like Privateer Press? Leagues ahead.

 Kingsley wrote:

I could go on and on here, that's just off the top of my head. Now is that an accurate description of GW's track record over the last short while? No, it obviously isn't-- it's very one-sided! But no more one-sided than the "decade of dickishness" being claimed by others. You have to take the good with the bad and form a balanced perspective, not just stockpile cheers or jeers.

Here's the thing though. the "good" things as you see them can be seen quite differently by other folks. I'll agree with you on some points, but those things that are positive are hardly unique to GW. When compared to the level of support companies like PP give out (tournament support, league play etc) GW fall short. Most of the good things you mention, in my book really arent, and then there are the poorly thought out decsions that do nothing but disenfranchise players, potential players and even most recently, retailers and distributors. Add to that the perceived contemptuous attitude given to customers.

The funny thing is, i get the GW attitude. I've actually spoken to Jervis, and i know personally some of the folks whose names appear in the codices and rulebooks (usually playtesters, and special thanks). GW want to control their product. GW push an idea of what they want to be and how they want to sell "their" image of what gaming is. THey even have an official policy towards advertising where the company line is to officially refuse to do it- they prefer word of mouth, to the extent that they will politely decline any and all interviews and potential media outlets. its simply not how they want to sell their image of what gaming is. In a lot of ways, theirs is a throwback to the 80s and the 90s. And in a way, i can respect that. I also understand their nature as a corporate entity. I like to think they do things because they have to-because of their bature as a big company with a few thousand employees - they dont have the luxury of being "cool" to the kids. I like to think its because of tedious legal reasons, and through corporate respponsibilities instead of a sadistic desire to actively screw you and i. I dont know how wrong or right i am in that personal view, but i like to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Sadly though, despite my neutral POV, i've been burned by GW. and I've grown up in the meantime. THe potential "good" stuff you mention Kinglsy, well not enough to make me (and many others) want to be a part of their culture.Doing a few (debateable) good things not unique to GW. Other companies do good things for thier customers, and then they do more awesome things on top of that. Privateer Press have simply offered, and given me so much more as a company. Compared to GW, they're leagues ahead, and thats where my money, time and interest is going.

Back to the Topic on hand.

I already posted a URL of another Store owner with the same gripes about GW's being unprofessional. Posting this again for others that might have missed it.
http://www.houseofpaincakes.com/2013/04/musings-of-game-store-owner-word-from.html#more

I will repost another Url when they presented themselves again in a unprofessional manner. This time at Gencon 2012.
http://theback40k.blogspot.com/2012/08/gencon-appreciating-scale.html

I fully know what this corporation is capable to do and its potential. These situations are not unusual slip ups. These are planned.

Situations like this shows the behavior of middle management that are getting their orders from high above. These are signs of a company that are cutting back on everything that they consider unnecessary. this includes how they are dealing with their customer base and retailers.

Deadnight wrote:
Here's the thing though. the "good" things as you see them can be seen quite differently by other folks. I'll agree with you on some points, but those things that are positive are hardly unique to GW. When compared to the level of support companies like PP give out (tournament support, league play etc) GW fall short. Most of the good things you mention, in my book really arent, and then there are the poorly thought out decsions that do nothing but disenfranchise players, potential players and even most recently, retailers and distributors. Add to that the perceived contemptuous attitude given to customers.

I consider a large portion of that list of bad things debatable as well. But I'm not interested in arguing over every point there-- merely in showing that, depending on how you look at things, you can have a very different perspective. My stance, again, is that you have to consider the overall situation and take the good with the bad.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:
Back to the Topic on hand.

I already posted a URL of another Store owner with the same gripes about GW's being unprofessional. Posting this again for others that might have missed it.
http://www.houseofpaincakes.com/2013/04/musings-of-game-store-owner-word-from.html#more

I will repost another Url when they presented themselves again in a unprofessional manner. This time at Gencon 2012.
http://theback40k.blogspot.com/2012/08/gencon-appreciating-scale.html

I fully know what this corporation is capable to do and its potential. These situations are not unusual slip ups. These are planned.

Situations like this shows the behavior of middle management that are getting their orders from high above. These are signs of a company that are cutting back on everything that they consider unnecessary. this includes how they are dealing with their customer base and retailers.

While the second link sounds like someone with an agenda, the House of Paincakes was a good example of comparing GW to the other companies. Biggest point I think that needs to be made here is how WotC is shown and presents themselves vs GW. WotC is huge. GW wishes it was WotC. But WotC still strives to push new games, keep interest going in old games, and keep the store owners happy. Though I wouldn't get too thrilled about a WotC takeover of GW. I remember Avalon Hill's take over by WotC being particularly loathed. The main design studio was let go despite being well liked. Number of their games also got pulled from the shelves. Not sure how the community would react if WHFB was canned because it's sales weren't deemed "strong enough" by a new management.

You can have an agenda and still be factually accurate. The Warstore having banners, displays, retail packaged products...versus GW having plain brown wrapping, and little to designate that they were GW other than their shirts. While the words can show an agenda, it does change the poor showing of GW at the biggest game convention of the year.

 TheMostSlyFox wrote:
I hope they get bought by WoTC when their assets are sold.

I'm thinking either Hasbro (To merge with WotC) or Mattel(To compete with WotC).

The bright side with a Hasbro buyout is that WH40k and Warhammer Fantasy both have enough sales to be considered "core brands" and be kept in production. The really weird thing would be the likelihood of Hasbro merging them with WotC and moving the studio to Seattle.

Im still pretty pissed about the paints

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
You can have an agenda and still be factually accurate. The Warstore having banners, displays, retail packaged products...versus GW having plain brown wrapping, and little to designate that they were GW other than their shirts. While the words can show an agenda, it does change the poor showing of GW at the biggest game convention of the year.

Yes, but they can be less blatant about it. And besides, that is not new news, it's always been known GW has an afterthought presence at Gencon. The House of Paincakes does a good comparison of representation by mid to upper management/sales by the various companies.

silent25 wrote:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
You can have an agenda and still be factually accurate. The Warstore having banners, displays, retail packaged products...versus GW having plain brown wrapping, and little to designate that they were GW other than their shirts. While the words can show an agenda, it does change the poor showing of GW at the biggest game convention of the year.

Yes, but they can be less blatant about it. And besides, that is not new news, it's always been known GW has an afterthought presence at Gencon. The House of Paincakes does a good comparison of representation by mid to upper management/sales by the various companies.

This is a pattern. You do not show up to one of the largest events that represents your product unprepared.

To act like a garage company trying to break into the industry instead of a multimillion dollar corporation using some of their profits at least for Marketing/Public Relations is unacceptable.

They made a decision on showing up. They should act like it meant something.

RogueRegault wrote:

 TheMostSlyFox wrote:
I hope they get bought by WoTC when their assets are sold.

I'm thinking either Hasbro (To merge with WotC) or Mattel(To compete with WotC).

The bright side with a Hasbro buyout is that WH40k and Warhammer Fantasy both have enough sales to be considered "core brands" and be kept in production. The really weird thing would be the likelihood of Hasbro merging them with WotC and moving the studio to Seattle.

If they did, then my dream of DungeonHammer the Gathering may finally be realized.

Even garage companies do interviews. Look up some of the footage from GenCon of several vloggers who interview various game designers and small companies.

GW knows that interviews are free right? You know, free, like doesn't cost a thing? Heck when the BBC comes calling, why not let them ask a few question and give you free exposure?

Why so shy?. Just because "we don't do interviews" has been the party line, why not take a step forward and change that?

xraytango wrote:
Why so shy?. Just because "we don't do interviews" has been the party line, why not take a step forward and change that?

Because doing interviews is a little pointless when you refuse to tell anyone what you are working on until three and a half minutes before release.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

This is a pattern. You do not show up to one of the largest events that represents your product unprepared.

To act like a garage company trying to break into the industry instead of a multimillion dollar corporation using some of their profits at least for Marketing/Public Relations is unacceptable.

They made a decision on showing up. They should act like it meant something.

Are you referring to GenCon or ACD? GenCon is always more about the entire gaming industry than just tabletop miniatures. Because you know who else doesn't go to GenCon? Reaper Miniatures. Are they arrogant and unprepared because they don't go GenCon? No, because everyone knows them at GenCon. They focus on shows where people do not know about them.

Honestly I'm surprised that GW was even at Gencon. GW has always had a minimal convention presence. They have always claimed everyone knows them, no need to go to these shows. Plus why show up when the other distributors there are selling your product below MRSP. Though one though, GenCon, if like SDCC has limited table space and a waiting list. I know several vendors who send minimal presence to SDCC just to maintain a table space. Because once you lose it, it's gone. They may be simply maintaining a spot at this point. A vendor friend that just tired to get into SDCC said it was a three year waiting list.

ACD on the other hand is addressing the actual people who stock your product . An angry fanboy might mean a few hundred dollars in lost sales. An angry store owner is tens if not hundreds of thousands in lost sales. I agree there on the need to be prepared and have answers. Showing up there with stock answers only pours flames on the fire.