OP, as someone who also got into the hobby at a young age, I feel your pain. Being taken seriously by adults when you're being mature is pretty hard, but doable! You just have to keep a stiff upper lip and always take the high road. Eventually, the older gamers/staff members will realize you're not just some snot nosed brat that has no validity as a hobbyist.
Strayan wrote: No, I've been reading the whole time..
If you read them all you would realise this isn't my first post on this thread...
I've been pretty clear on my stances,
Meanwhile you've literally called us ass holes for having the nerve to see both sides of this..
You sir are a troll.. And not a nice person in general.
Wow really?? I literally called you an ass hole?? Where?? Quote me the post cause I would love to see it. While you are at it quote what I said about there may be more the this. I just take the stance the store worker was in the wrong. So by doing that I guess there is more then one of us here calling everyone ass holes??
No sir I think you are the troll. But I am glad I could brighten your day.
it's kinda funny...my friend was at the games workshop store in halifax nova scotia in the last couple weeks (I just seen him today after a chunk of time) and he was telling me how he was being harassed by a worker there to buy something....so I'm starting to figure that's how games workshop people are suppose to act....like used car sales men
about the whole child thing....if the people know you are there usually spending money and you just want to browse or do something related to the hobby they should just piss off....I say the op should go back there at night with a huge rock and smash the place! lol probably not a good idea...rage against the machine man!
An I see my error, I mistook you for epicwalrus, since you replied to the post directed at him..
I would apologise alas,
You've made a post designed to negate my character and take gross assumptions of my views..
Then proceeded to enjoy my displeasure at that.. I believe society has only JUST developed a five letter word that fits that discription nicely..
So previous statement in leu of apology stands
Apparently, he wasn't in the buying mood then and he was loitering. Both of my FLGSs have had issues with loiterers. When I go to them to play, I purchase something. Game stores are not lounges, libraries, or daycare centers; they are businesses. And if it was within the clerk's rights to ask him to leave, he had that option.
If you can't hang around in gamestores then why even bother buying from them and just buy everything online. It'll probably be cheaper.
Also, being obligated to buy something EVERYTIME you go down is ridiculous. I go down to play warmachine 3x a week usually. I'm not buying something every single time.
Sining, I would totally agree with you in an FLGS setting, but they are clubs with the staff and customer knowledge to support gaming..
GW have been downsized (staff and space) to an absurd level, with typically one or two tables... Whilst its regrettable, they just aren't equipped to be a gaming club anymore..
Automatically Appended Next Post: TBH, I can't help but feel sorry for Gw retail staff.. They are the biggest losers out of the new GW policies.
Strayan wrote: An I see my error, I mistook you for epicwalrus, since you replied to the post directed at him..
I would apologise alas,
You've made a post designed to negate my character and take gross assumptions of my views..
Then proceeded to enjoy my displeasure at that.. I believe society has only JUST developed a five letter word that fits that discription nicely..
So previous statement in leu of apology stands
One tip you might want to consider. If you are replying to someone then you may want to quote what you are replying to. That they there can be no mistake about who you are talking to.
Again I would love you to quote me on how I negated your character. If you are referring to the troll comment...... well all I can say is if you want to throw mud......
I only enjoy displeasing people that I feel they deserve it. I would love displeasing the store worker that i personally feel mishandled how this young person was treated.
So take it as you will. If I did truly hurt your feelings well I am sorry. Not that you would believe such statement but oh well such is life.
Alex,
On another note, please do not do anything illegal in retaliation. I hope those that have stressed such views only mean it in a joking way.
Strayan wrote: Sining, I would totally agree with you in an FLGS setting, but they are clubs with the staff and customer knowledge to support gaming..
GW have been downsized (staff and space) to an absurd level, with typically one or two tables... Whilst its regrettable, they just aren't equipped to be a gaming club anymore..
Automatically Appended Next Post: TBH, I can't help but feel sorry for Gw retail staff.. They are the biggest losers out of the new GW policies.
In this case the gW has 2 demo tables and at least 2 gaming tables, it isn't a 1 man (australian style) shoebox store.
I just got to the end of that. Pretty epic, now I'm sad.
Alex, I'd give you some advice but you don't seem to need it. I'll just tell you what people have been telling adolescents for years, "it gets better," which it doesn't. '
Also, in reference to the old 'unattended minors' debate: anyone who is not a minor or does not have children should not talk about it, because no one actually cares what you think. I wanna hear from parents first, children second and you last (and in the case of some posters, not at all).
The story seems a little one sided the things like "I was a little agitated" could either mean you said nothing or you were a mouthy little brat, or anywhere in between, remember their store their rules, if you feel like it really was a big deal just talk to the manager about it, and talking about abduction seemed a little strong, you got the bus by yourself and are 14 and the store is not a daycare and you are not their responsibility either.
@Alex
Since this is your local store that you would like to continue patronizing, retaliation is not really an option worth pursuing. Be polite, act mature and bring your rule book next time. If the staff member is legitimately a jerk again, then involve your parents.
If you have to escalate things, have one of your parents write a letter to the manager or the corporate office. In my personal experience, a well written letter expressing your disappointment with service but desire to remain a customer will elicit some response.
Leith wrote: I just got to the end of that. Pretty epic, now I'm sad.
Alex, I'd give you some advice but you don't seem to need it. I'll just tell you what people have been telling adolescents for years, "it gets better," which it doesn't. '
Also, in reference to the old 'unattended minors' debate: anyone who is not a minor or does not have children should not talk about it, because no one actually cares what you think. I wanna hear from parents first, children second and you last (and in the case of some posters, not at all).
Because apparently you have to be a minor or a child to have worked in retail and had to be informed about liability.
Apparently, he wasn't in the buying mood then and he was loitering. Both of my FLGSs have had issues with loiterers. When I go to them to play, I purchase something. Game stores are not lounges, libraries, or daycare centers; they are businesses. And if it was within the clerk's rights to ask him to leave, he had that option.
In fact he was very much so in the mood, that is the reason he went there, to buy another transport case, it just so happens the store did not have one available. A some what more "alert" salesman would have talked him into ordering it and picking it up later instead of antagonizing a potential customer with cash to burn.
Leith wrote: I just got to the end of that. Pretty epic, now I'm sad.
Alex, I'd give you some advice but you don't seem to need it. I'll just tell you what people have been telling adolescents for years, "it gets better," which it doesn't. '
Also, in reference to the old 'unattended minors' debate: anyone who is not a minor or does not have children should not talk about it, because no one actually cares what you think. I wanna hear from parents first, children second and you last (and in the case of some posters, not at all).
Since you do not live in a reality that automatically enforces the will of who you think is relevant on the rest, i dont think this is the right attitude. It does not matter if the red shirt had kids or not(same goes for the rest of the people posting here), he was the store employee and was following store policy. The problem is that he was an ass about it. He could have politely explained the store policy and given the situation make a one time exception. Those of us who actually have jobs, specially those that deal with customers, know that he was not going to get fired over this. But he choose to be a jerk, instead of being polite and possibly talking the OP into ordering the case and picking it up next week or something, thus getting the required sale.
In fact, when i worked as a Customer Representative for GM, saying "that is not my problem pal" would have most likely gotten me fired. That does not mean customers get what ever they want either. Being polite is actually free for everybody.
The store has open gaming, the employee was the one who prevented him from gaming, creating the situation to begin with. feth him, I hope your mom tears him a new one and he gets gak canned.
Open gaming doesn't mean open house. There's rules (albeit odd ones) to be followed.
Taking the moral high ground is irrelevant as proved by the fact that the kid won't go back until the manager is there who he hopes will take his side. He more likely will (and sell him a £60 case - KR btw are much better and only £30 ) but there is so much more to this than is being said.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: I have no where else to buy from, taking my business elsewhere means I would have to quit the hobby altogether. That's why I can't let it come to that,
The Wargame store is out by Bebington, which is apparently only about an hour from GW Chester if you're using public transport (20 mins if your parents drove you).
It's got a whole gaming area and a discount on GW stuff. On bigger purchases you're probably cheaper getting a bus out with taxi for the last leg, than going to GW.
Of course, it all depends on where you came from, but it's certainly another option.
Edit: Since I assumed you were talking about GW Chester, but I haven't found any confirmation of that yet. In any case, there will probably be someone on here who can recommend an alternative Brick & Mortar shop to whatever GW you're going to.
Sorry this thread seems to have brought so many misanthropists and tabloid-readers out of their cave, Alex.
I'm sure you'll be fine; remember, though, when you complain, you have to act like the adult, let the employee behave like a child. Tell them you'd like to continue purchasing from them, and playing in their store, you understand the pressures on them, and you'd like it explaining to the new employee that you're a regular customer. Don't try and make him choose between the new employee and you - because with the lack of corroboration, he'll go for the other guy.
Then, if they don't sort you out, there's always the rival store. My son's 12, hangs out both at GW and at Dark Sphere, the independent store - of which I, as a parent, heartily approve as there's 20 or 20 per cent discount - and they sell custom KR cases.
Leith wrote: Also, in reference to the old 'unattended minors' debate: anyone who is not a minor or does not have children should not talk about it, because no one actually cares what you think. I wanna hear from parents first, children second and you last (and in the case of some posters, not at all).
I'm not a child or a parent, but I work in a school so have a job that directly involves supervision of children. I also used to work in large toy store, which is a job that indirectly involves supervision of children. But I guess nobody cares what I think.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: One sided original story is one sided. I'd like to hear the full thing before jumping up and denouncing GW staff and policies.
The kid could have been a total gobshite for all we know.
Judging by the fact he posted here, in a VERY civil manor (especially for a youth) and described the situation in the manor he did, I would venture to guess that this was a case of "discrimination" by a cranky neckbeard.
Given that the situation is as described, while the employee may have done nothing illegal, certainly he didn't do what was in any party's interest but his own. Poor customer service (yes you are a customer even if you don't buy that day, ask any car dealership), poor attitude and abiding by stupid rules that nobody else will enforce just to feel like a tough guy. You don't have to purchase every time you go in to enjoy the benefits of being a customer. Department stores don't kick people out for trying on some clothes then not buying them. They won't refuse to spray perfume on someone unless they buy it. Car dealerships don't call the cops because you take a car on a test drive then say "No thanks." Calling this loitering is a stretch, especially if he was actively engaged in a game, personal rulebook or no (ridiculous policy I wouldn't enforce as an employee anyway).
Honestly I can't believe some of the responses that have been given. The original post was well written, civil and intended to ask an honest question and he gets responses like the first one? At least respond in kind and don't act like he stepped on your cat. What a poor representation of the community.
To use your examples; If you sat on the bonnet of the car after the test drive with the desire of staying there for the next 6 hours or curled up in the Department store's bed area for a 6 hour nap you would quickly find yourself being asked to leave.
The first response seemed pretty honest and forthright to me. It would seem the community you are looking for is a rather dull conformist one there to salve the hurt feelings where everyone is a special little flower.
notprop wrote: To use your examples; If you sat on the bonnet of the car after the test drive with the desire of staying there for the next 6 hours or curled up in the Department store's bed area for a 6 hour nap you would quickly find yourself being asked to leave.
The first response seemed pretty honest and forthright to me. It would seem the community you are looking for is a rather dull conformist one there to salve the hurt feelings where everyone is a special little flower.
If it was a car dealership, yes, wanting to stay all day would be unreasonable. But if it was a Hobby Centre, advertised as a place for them hang out, then it wouldn't.
The only thing he did differently from the other 2 under 16's in playing was that he didn't have a rule book with him and only wanted to buy an item they didn't have in stock and didn't offer to order in. Buying something just to stay in would have left him unable to buy the case he wanted.
Maybe the customer was being unreasonable, but from what he's said it's the staffer who was unreasonable (and looking for an excuse to get customers out of his shop).
The 'not my problem' comment actually seemed tame after your complaining about not having a place to go. What response to that could he have given that you would not have considered rude?
There are easy ways to express the same information in a polite, non-confrontational, customer-friendly manner.
Give me a beak. Kid being kicked out pulls the 'I can't go home' card. 'Get the feth out before I call the cops' would have been rude. 'Not my problem' is an entirely appropriate response at that point.
Cliffy_3 wrote: If you have to escalate things, have one of your parents write a letter to the manager or the corporate office. In my personal experience, a well written letter expressing your disappointment with service but desire to remain a customer will elicit some response.
^This.
Spent 4 years as store staff at GWUK stores and behaviour such as described would not have been acceptable. Those higher up the retail chain don't like to hear about this sort of thing so there's a good chance it will elicit a response.
At quite a few of the stores I've gamed in in the last 20+ years there has been a store rule that you must have;
1) A rule book,
2) A codex/Army Book.
3) A written, Legible Army list.
Without any one of these, you were asked to pack up.
Seems fair enough to me.
As far as I know in the UK child welfare is paramount above all other matters. Even if that's slightly mistaken, the OPs parents mentioning to the manager orif need be the corporate section, the child welfare act of 19XX will most surely get the OP some serious asskissery by the store/employee in question, in relation to him being kicked out with a"Not my problem." Because if I remember correctly anything that causes potential harm to a child (like the OP said he could've been abducted) is a serious matter. The company wouldn't want an official complaint or lawsuit,, or even the idea of one. The bad publicity would bring to light all their other unsavoury acts.
Deadshot wrote: As far as I know in the UK child welfare is paramount above all other matters. Even if that's slightly mistaken, the OPs parents mentioning to the manager orif need be the corporate section, the child welfare act of 19XX will most surely get the OP some serious asskissery by the store/employee in question, in relation to him being kicked out with a"Not my problem." Because if I remember correctly anything that causes potential harm to a child (like the OP said he could've been abducted) is a serious matter. The company wouldn't want an official complaint or lawsuit,, or even the idea of one. The bad publicity would bring to light all their other unsavoury acts.
This is however someone who made their own way to the shop and I assume intended to make their own way home, and was in possession of suitable funds for a taxi home. Surely if you are saying the shopkeeper is guilty of neglect then allowing a child out on their own in the first place is the same offense?
If OP wants to be treated like an adult as his post eloquency seems to suggest then this whole "I'm a child and you might break my rights" line of thought seems counter intuitive.
The OP's story doesn't cast the store employee in a good, smart or consistent light. Whatever the policies and powers in the store are, they should be applied consistently. At least one other teen was hanging out to play, the OP doesn't mention anything about that person buying anything. Besides having not just a rule book but also a codex, there isn't really any difference between the two teens in the story, yet one was kicked out while the other wasn't.
At my local GW Hobby Centre - which has eight places for painting and a 3-4 gaming tables - it is common to see some kids being dropped off there by their parents and some teenagers or young adults being around as well. For the young kids, the parents are typically running an errant and will pick the kids up again within the hour. The teenagers appear to be on their own. If I would work in the store, being a part-time kindergardener wouldn't be a plus. I can only assume that someone considered the local legal implications if something (theft, fight, accident) happens. Most teenagers don't have the deep pockets that working adults have, so their purchase power per head is probably lower - on the other hand, you can catch customers young and get them onto plastic crack before they are distracted by girls or stuff like that. ;-]
From a business point of view, the only reason to tolerate any people in the store (including employees) is because it helps the bottom line. Since it's a clear policy to invite people to build, paint and play in the store, the time spent at the store and reasons for visiting the store increase compared to a normal retail store. On the other hand, there is no loss-leader product needed to lure the hobbyists into the store. If the players then need something, wouldn't you believe it, that thing and the cash register are right there. Amazing coincidence! =]
At the GW Hobby Centre in Aachen (and I think also at other stores) management has jump-started the formation of clubs based in the store. Rather than have random customers agree to play on the fly or somehow organize themselves a club-like organisation is helpfully suggested.
With that I mean to say that GW Stores are designed to engage people in the hobby and have them hang out there - obviously because that generates sales or sales opportunities. That would apply also in the OPs situation. Obviously we don't know what was going on that the OP didn't see, didn't consider relevant or what went through the employees mind. Anyway.
One more tought - isn't it ridiculous how anyone who's not an adult yet is subjected to constant hand-holding? I'm going on 40 years old and I have fond memories of spending the days with the other children from our street hanging out in the pseudo wilderness in the two miles around the street. Ok, once I burned my eyebrows when I dropped a lighter, but there was loads of fun to be had and not one of us needed more than a bandaid over all the years we ran wild. We walked to primary school by ourselves. I had to catch a public bus or ride my bicycle to get to secondary school across the valley. Compared with the 80's, today's kids must all be lobotomized for all that boo-hoo to be warranted.
Ignore the immature comments, find a nice game store or game club and take your money somewhere else, i'll bet that red shirt wouldn't talk to someone like that, if he was older.
Stephanius wrote: One more tought - isn't it ridiculous how anyone who's not an adult yet is subjected to constant hand-holding? I'm going on 40 years old and I have fond memories of spending the days with the other children from our street hanging out in the pseudo wilderness in the two miles around the street.
Yeah, this thread and some of the opinions have been sort of mind blowing. When I was this kid's age, I was taking a bus from the Bronx to New Rochelle to go to school, attend school, and afterward either go to the arcade or the movies with my friends before taking the bus back home. My only interaction with my mother was in the morning when she'd give me bus fare - apparently she should have been thrown in jail for leaving in the custody of strangers.
The other comments aside I would deal with this by speaking to the manager, you said he's a good guy so may see it your way and educate him, some people are just idiots and in a situation like this they need to be told to calm down, if they don't walk away a hobby isn't worth being upset about.
A similar story but without quite the same issues...
When I walked into my local store last year to start up again after 15 years one of the staff was on me like a rash with the pressure sales, I walked away. The manager is a great guy and by not trying to sell me anything and just being passionate about GW I will only buy from the shop now and frequently do for the customer service(unless they don't stock it).
Thr last time I saw the 'other guy' he tried telling me I needed 6 different paints to paint a face other wise It will look crap, again the hard sale made me walk away. I think he's a manager at another store now...
I have been to another store recently where unless you where buying you wern't allowed to play or paint, his stance was he is paid to sell gamesworkshop not look after other peoples kids, he did hold a lot of competitions though to balance it out, so I guess childcare on his terms. But he was honest in that being on his own he couldn't 'look' after non paying customers and serve paying customers who keep him in the job day to day.
Deadshot wrote: As far as I know in the UK child welfare is paramount above all other matters. Even if that's slightly mistaken, the OPs parents mentioning to the manager orif need be the corporate section, the child welfare act of 19XX will most surely get the OP some serious asskissery by the store/employee in question, in relation to him being kicked out with a"Not my problem." Because if I remember correctly anything that causes potential harm to a child (like the OP said he could've been abducted) is a serious matter. The company wouldn't want an official complaint or lawsuit,, or even the idea of one. The bad publicity would bring to light all their other unsavoury acts.
Where did all this ridiculous abduction talk come from?
The OP is 14. From the age of 12, boys and girls are assumed to be able to make their way to, and back, from a destination independently. That's why they have independent travel cards, and are expected to make their way to school and back on their own. Every day hundreds of thousands of children manage it. For the same reason, GW allow 12 year olds, independently, in their shops. GW are not acting in loco parentis. presumably the OP, like my nipper, has a phone and is capable of telling his parents he'll be home early.
I know the 40k universe is rife with malevolence and extreme violence, but can we quit with all the paranoia?
The OP would do better to remonstrate with the manager as a customer, rather than claiming he's too vulnerable to be allowed out on his own, citing some vague law. But I think he understands that already.
It's interesting hearing about this, especially if you also consider other posts that talk about GW stores not being the same as they used to be. I worked for a short time in GW Bournemouth, around the November / December 2004 time. I remembered the store being busy with kids at the weekend and when the Xmas holidays kicked in. I don't recall any being kicked out for not buying anything. There were things like not eating in the store, using your own paints and no access to the staff loos. Apart from that we used to have kids coming in for games, meeting their mates, painting and putting together army lists.
The OP is 14. From the age of 12, boys and girls are assumed to be able to make their way to, and back, from a destination independently. That's why they have independent travel cards, and are expected to make their way to school and back on their own. Every day hundreds of thousands of children manage it. For the same reason, GW allow 12 year olds, independently, in their shops. GW are not acting in loco parentis. presumably the OP, like my nipper, has a phone and is capable of telling his parents he'll be home early.
I know the 40k universe is rife with malevolence and extreme violence, but can we quit with all the paranoia?
Funny thing--statistically, the risk of a child being abducted in the UK has actually gone down over the last few decades. But when a child actually is abducted or killed (or there's a development in an older case), it'll be splashed across news headlines for days on end, so the perception of risk is very different from the actual risk.
Deadshot wrote: As far as I know in the UK child welfare is paramount above all other matters. Even if that's slightly mistaken, the OPs parents mentioning to the manager orif need be the corporate section, the child welfare act of 19XX will most surely get the OP some serious asskissery by the store/employee in question, in relation to him being kicked out with a"Not my problem." Because if I remember correctly anything that causes potential harm to a child (like the OP said he could've been abducted) is a serious matter. The company wouldn't want an official complaint or lawsuit,, or even the idea of one. The bad publicity would bring to light all their other unsavoury acts.
Where did all this ridiculous abduction talk come from?
The OP is 14. From the age of 12, boys and girls are assumed to be able to make their way to, and back, from a destination independently. That's why they have independent travel cards, and are expected to make their way to school and back on their own. Every day hundreds of thousands of children manage it. For the same reason, GW allow 12 year olds, independently, in their shops. GW are not acting in loco parentis. presumably the OP, like my nipper, has a phone and is capable of telling his parents he'll be home early.
I know the 40k universe is rife with malevolence and extreme violence, but can we quit with all the paranoia?
The OP would do better to remonstrate with the manager as a customer, rather than claiming he's too vulnerable to be allowed out on his own, citing some vague law. But I think he understands that already.
I agree. Pretext that their is some law that prevents 14 yr olds from wondering the street or going into shops is nonsense.
Love all these pseudo lawyers making comments about liability law they know nothing about. Obviously laws vary between countries, but I've been to plenty of shopping malls and movie theaters full of "unaccompanied" 14 yr olds, I started working part time in a supermarket at the age of 15. Didn't need my parents permission for that lol. Any society that won't let 14 yr olds wonder around by themselves is a pretty junk society I wouldn't want to live in.
Obviously its their property and they can kick out whoever they want. Though, kicking out some 14 yr old in a shop I've always assumed encouraged loiters is pretty mean.
Funny thing--statistically, the risk of a child being abducted in the UK has actually gone down over the last few decades. But when a child actually is abducted or killed (or there's a development in an older case), it'll be splashed across news headlines for days on end, so the perception of risk is very different from the actual risk.
The perception of risk might be a contributing factor in the lowering risk. As well as all the spread of amber alert programs and the coordination of first responders and investigators in a far more organized fashion.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: One sided original story is one sided. I'd like to hear the full thing before jumping up and denouncing GW staff and policies.
In what universe do you live in where 'both sides' of the story are written out in cases like these? LOL.
I would love for the GW redshirt assclown to come defend himself.
Lol me too, but my point was how often do we hear both sides of a story in threads like these? 1% of the time?
More than that when it comes to these kinds of situations at independent shops. It also comes down to the posting habits of the store players, etc. In some instances, players who were there at the time register explicitly to point out that someone's account varies wildly from what actually happened.
Without putting a post on Games Workshop Chester's Facebook page asking for individuals to come post on Dakka(which would likely be deleted anyways, as GW does not really like people posting links to outside websites on the FB pages and the FB pages are only managed by the local shop manager with GW corporate's web team having complete control over what gets posted when) it is unlikely we will get confirmation of the story one way or the other.
Jumping in and denouncing [whatever] after only hearing one side is how the internet works, lol.
Yep.
It generally comes down to "Have you had a bad experience with X before? If yes, side with Y. If no, side with Z."
Strayan wrote: An I see my error, I mistook you for epicwalrus, since you replied to the post directed at him..
I would apologise alas,
You've made a post designed to negate my character and take gross assumptions of my views..
Then proceeded to enjoy my displeasure at that.. I believe society has only JUST developed a five letter word that fits that discription nicely..
So previous statement in leu of apology stands
Let me get this straight. You insult him in error thinking he's someone else. He calls you on it, so rather than admit you're wrong, you double down? Niiiice.
Little bit of advice - you run into an donkey-cave in the morning, you ran into an donkey-cave; you run into donkey-caves all day, you're the donkey-cave.
Strayan wrote: An I see my error, I mistook you for epicwalrus, since you replied to the post directed at him..
I would apologise alas,
You've made a post designed to negate my character and take gross assumptions of my views..
Then proceeded to enjoy my displeasure at that.. I believe society has only JUST developed a five letter word that fits that discription nicely..
So previous statement in leu of apology stands
Let me get this straight. You insult him in error thinking he's someone else. He calls you on it, so rather than admit you're wrong, you double down? Niiiice.
Little bit of advice - you run into an donkey-cave in the morning, you ran into an donkey-cave; you run into donkey-caves all day, you're the donkey-cave.
After 12 pages, I guess I can comment as it's been an interesting read. Certainly seen into the psyche of some posters. I'm typing on my phone, so I won't throw direct quotes out. Alex, it sounds like you got a raw deal, but a second view from the redshirt would be a nice addition, as there are always two views on each confrontation, and he may have something to add that you left out, innocently or maliciously. Courtesies out of the way, you tried to be a paying customer: he should have offered to sell a gift card so you could buy the case right then and there, or your dad being willing to pay later should have been okay too. Next, playing, you said the other guy had a rulebook: sharing should have been okay, unless the store has a policy of needing your own (and has stressed this before/has it written). You tried to be a paying customer, tried to play a game, and tried to write a list to map out purchases. Based on the only info we have (your side), you should have been allowed to stay. I'm not touching the "law for minors" stuff as it's UK law, and different from US law: something other US posters aren't understanding. UK has different laws from us: kids are allowed to drink and screw younger than US teens too, and see boobs on the television. UK posters, you understand your laws, okay. Obviously your thoughts on the matter hold weight, US posters playing 'minor' and 'law' cards need to just stop: you're making yourself look bad. Really bad.
Alex, your thought to discuss with the manager is a good one, maybe ask to have a sit down with him, the redshirt and your parents. Don't let it discourage you to keep playing a game you love, or going to a store you love but have had a single bad experience at. Good luck. And I'll say, having experience working with kids, you've been much more grown up than most kids two or three years older than you. Just leave out the threats of what could happen to you if you're thrown out. It doesn't help. But at 14 (14 years ago), I may have responded similarly. We also had far different thoughts on teenagers hanging out back then.
Kanluwen wrote: Did I really have to explain that though? I thought it was a given, like the fact that water is wet.
Wrong. Water is not wet. Things exposed to water get wet.
wet
[wet] Show IPA adjective, wet·ter, wet·test, noun, verb, wet or wet·ted, wet·ting.
adjective
1.
moistened, covered, or soaked with water or some other liquid: wet hands.
2.
in a liquid form or state: wet paint.
3.
characterized by the presence or use of water or other liquid.
4.
moistened or dampened with rain; rainy: Wet streets make driving hazardous.
5.
allowing or favoring the sale of alcoholic beverages: a wet town.
Sorry to hear Op you had this happen. The staff member was out of line and hopefully you can talk to the manager and straighten things out like others have said. GW's stores main strength I feel ( at least in the past) has been being a hub for people to come and share their hobby experiences. Especially in marginal areas where there might not be a big wargaming community or hobby clubs catering to the game. I know for me it was that way when i got into the game back in my teens. I would spend at least 2-3 days of the week at my local one painting, swapping army list ideas, discussing the fluff and playing games of 40k and fantasy. Fostering that kind of community atmosphere and inclusion is part of what made GW the size of company it is. So yeah it isn't like other shops. It's a shame when people like that staff member sully that atmosphere.
And all the best in your wargaming OP. Plus good job on the well articulated posting.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Sigh, I would wonder if people not reading my posts is because they read the first one and are disregarding me because I am full of 'Whiney Teenage Bollox', but that theory involves people reading my posts in the first place... Thanks guys for the support. Although it does bring up the debate of if teenagers should be allowed in the store unsupervised, even when the (Admittedly scant) advertising is clearly targeted at people my age.
This post does not discredit your being full of "whiny teenage bollox".
Honestly, the fact that you chose to post it here rather than actually contact the manager first is what goes against you in my eyes.
I looked at GW Chester's page and saw that you did post on there, which I approve of--but I think that you should have actually included a link to this thread as well in case the employee in question decides to tell his own side of the story.
I stopped reading right here, four more pages to go and this is where I stopped. I underlined where I have issue here. Kanluwen, this young hobbyist has contacted us for help on how best to approach this situation. Some of us see this thankfully, I however find issue with your stance. So far as I have read, there is nothing correct this boy can do correctly in your eyes based on your responses in this thread up to this point. I will point out that it is you whom has narrowed his willingness to understand the situation from both sides. I respectfully ask you to simply read what this boy has said thus far and take off your grump hat. You would be pleased to see that he is approaching this situation that he does not know how to handle by himself by coming to the community and asking us for help. He has given us his side of the story with relatively little nay-saying which is a rarity in the youth at his age. You should be proud the likes of this child is among our ranks.
In honesty, you should apologize for your narrow-sightedness in advising this boy with his issue. Cause frankly, he didn't ask for your stance about him, he asked for your help in how to handle this situation.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Sigh, I would wonder if people not reading my posts is because they read the first one and are disregarding me because I am full of 'Whiney Teenage Bollox', but that theory involves people reading my posts in the first place... Thanks guys for the support. Although it does bring up the debate of if teenagers should be allowed in the store unsupervised, even when the (Admittedly scant) advertising is clearly targeted at people my age.
This post does not discredit your being full of "whiny teenage bollox".
Honestly, the fact that you chose to post it here rather than actually contact the manager first is what goes against you in my eyes.
I looked at GW Chester's page and saw that you did post on there, which I approve of--but I think that you should have actually included a link to this thread as well in case the employee in question decides to tell his own side of the story.
I stopped reading right here, four more pages to go and this is where I stopped. I underlined where I have issue here. Kanluwen, this young hobbyist has contacted us for help on how best to approach this situation. Some of us see this thankfully, I however find issue with your stance. So far as I have read, there is nothing correct this boy can do correctly in your eyes based on your responses in this thread up to this point. I will point out that it is you whom has narrowed his willingness to understand the situation from both sides. I respectfully ask you to simply read what this boy has said thus far and take off your grump hat. You would be pleased to see that he is approaching this situation that he does not know how to handle by himself by coming to the community and asking us for help. He has given us his side of the story with relatively little nay-saying which is a rarity in the youth at his age. You should be proud the likes of this child is among our ranks.
In honesty, you should apologize for your narrow-sightedness in advising this boy with his issue. Cause frankly, he didn't ask for your stance about him, he asked for your help in how to handle this situation.
And also, wouldn't this of fallen into your (? I'm not sure, there seems to be a lot of people who seem to think I'm lying, nay saying, rude, malicious and I'm sure someone called me poor somewhere...) Category of saying that I've just came here to 'Drum up negative feed back towards the staff member' because I would of already resolved the problem if I had talked to the manager already? Also the manager was on holiday, other wise this situation never would of occurred. I am glad you approve of my facebook status (Although it puts the whole abduction thing closer in my mind to be looked up ; please no I'm Joking) as I did try not to put any details in it really, as I didn't want to inconvenience his time off with my situation when he could easily deal with it when he gets back (And would get paid for the time).
Also I would like to thank all the people complimenting my posting, that cheers up my day. You should just feel lucky that I do take the time, if I didn't write in on Word and C+P it here I'm not sure it would've been readable
But he still spell compliment correctly, when it is so often confused with complement... nor did he talk about performing bodily functions in the shop...
so he comfortably exceeds the level of most posts here.
This has been an.... interesting read. But it seems to me that the actions of a store worker are the least of the issues. He was supposed to hang around a shop until 5.30 because both his parents were at work? THAT is the bigger issue!
UltraPrime wrote: This has been an.... interesting read. But it seems to me that the actions of a store worker are the least of the issues. He was supposed to hang around a shop until 5.30 because both his parents were at work? THAT is the bigger issue!
It's perfectly legal to leave a child unsupervised at 14. Whether you should or not is another debate, and IMO depends on the child. My folks did, but then again I could have been accused of being fairly mature for my age, as, it would seem, Alex is.
UltraPrime wrote: This has been an.... interesting read. But it seems to me that the actions of a store worker are the least of the issues. He was supposed to hang around a shop until 5.30 because both his parents were at work? THAT is the bigger issue!
I was left unattended a lot when I was mature enough to act like an adult. Some people's parents both work full time and can't afford a babysitter.
Kanluwen wrote: Even here in the US I cannot imagine that going anywhere unless there is a huge amount of complaints about the employee in question.
You are obviously just a troll but I will post anyway. In America you will be taken VERY seriously if you complain to a manager in a retail chain. And I mean VERY SERIOUSLY. I have worked at Babies R Us, Office Depot, and Barnes and Nobles and if you get a hold of a store manager and explain that situation there will not only be a good amount of trouble for the employee but you will also probably get something free. Now if you get a hold of the district manager someone might actually get fired.
Now I have never lived in the UK or shopped there so I don't know what would happen over there but I find it amusing that people like Nkelsch and Kanluwen are so ignorant of the how customer oriented retail chains are in the US.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: Quit whining because you were asked not to loiter. Remember why any store exists: making money. It isn't a library or a lounge.
Do you just troll to make people mad or are you some sort of a white knight?
Your a jerk dude and this kid has every right to be a little upset.
I dont care if you tend a bar or tend a horse trough, this kid is a paying customer and to be told to buy something or get out is outrageous!!!
Hey solo--buy some advertising space or get out!!!
Apparently, he wasn't in the buying mood then and he was loitering. Both of my FLGSs have had issues with loiterers. When I go to them to play, I purchase something. Game stores are not lounges, libraries, or daycare centers; they are businesses. And if it was within the clerk's rights to ask him to leave, he had that option.
Solofalcon stop lying about the situation. He wasn't loitering. Stop being a troll for the purpose of causing trouble. It makes you look small minded and ignorant.
Customers are liars, and you are under a self-important delusion if you think a one-sided uncorroborated complaint gets someone easily fired in the US. Giving free gak is a payoff for delusional people who think they are getting people fired because their issue is so legitimate even when it isn't.
Pattern of behavior or witnessed events which can be documented may lead someone to being disciplined, but never one-sided customer complaints, in fact if you were to do that, the employee could have equal recourse for wrongful termination or even sue the customer if they made fraudulent statements.
Asking a loitering teen to leave isn't going to get anyone fired. Especially a one-sided complaint from a mouthy teen who had to have the threat of police being called.
And yes, he was loitering, he was there a prolonged amount of time, and if a store says leave, you leave. You don't ever have a right to stay on private property, and if you get told to "move along" and you don't, you transcend from loitering to trespassing when on private property.
When I witness unreasonable abusive customers, I make an effort to tell the manager that the customer complaining was unreasonable and abusive to his employees. Yes, the complaining customer may have gotten swag, and the good manager sequestered the employee in what appears to be "punishment" but it is more to protect the staff and diffuse the situation, a lot of the time, the manager knows what a liar and unreasonable mess the customer was and not a dang thing happens to the employee.
You pretty much have to break the law with a customer to be fired on the spot from a customer complaint. To believe anything else is delusional because it simply is not true. This employee will not be fired due to the "complaints" of an unsupervised teen abandon by his parents and loitering in the store without all his gaming materials and not buying anything after multiple hours who got visibly angry when asked to leave, and argued to the point the police had to be referenced.
Kanluwen wrote: Even here in the US I cannot imagine that going anywhere unless there is a huge amount of complaints about the employee in question.
You are obviously just a troll but I will post anyway. In America you will be taken VERY seriously if you complain to a manager in a retail chain. And I mean VERY SERIOUSLY. I have worked at Babies R Us, Office Depot, and Barnes and Nobles and if you get a hold of a store manager and explain that situation there will not only be a good amount of trouble for the employee but you will also probably get something free. Now if you get a hold of the district manager someone might actually get fired.
Now I have never lived in the UK or shopped there so I don't know what would happen over there but I find it amusing that people like Nkelsch and Kanluwen are so ignorant of the how customer oriented retail chains are in the US.
I love how your first statement is "You are obviously just a troll" and then you go on to explain that you've worked retail...yet you seem to not have worked retail.
Do you know how hard it is to get an employee fired on the basis of one person's experience in a shop that is organized like GW?
There's no "district manager" and very rarely are there "store managers" that are not also the employee you would be complaining about.
It is essentially a franchise that unless there are a systematic number of complaints, nothing besides verbal reprimands will happen.
nkelsch wrote: Customers are liars, and you are under a self-important delusion if you think a one-sided uncorroborated complaint gets someone easily fired in the US. Giving free gak is a payoff for delusional people who think they are getting people fired because their issue is so legitimate even when it isn't.
Pattern of behavior or witnessed events which can be documented may lead someone to being disciplined, but never one-sided customer complaints, in fact if you were to do that, the employee could have equal recourse for wrongful termination or even sue the customer if they made fraudulent statements.
Asking a loitering teen to leave isn't going to get anyone fired. Especially a one-sided complaint from a mouthy teen who had to have the threat of police being called.
And yes, he was loitering, he was there a prolonged amount of time, and if a store says leave, you leave. You don't ever have a right to stay on private property, and if you get told to "move along" and you don't, you transcend from loitering to trespassing when on private property.
When I witness unreasonable abusive customers, I make an effort to tell the manager that the customer complaining was unreasonable and abusive to his employees. Yes, the complaining customer may have gotten swag, and the good manager sequestered the employee in what appears to be "punishment" but it is more to protect the staff and diffuse the situation, a lot of the time, the manager knows what a liar and unreasonable mess the customer was and not a dang thing happens to the employee.
You pretty much have to break the law with a customer to be fired on the spot from a customer complaint. To believe anything else is delusional because it simply is not true. This employee will not be fired due to the "complaints" of an unsupervised teen abandon by his parents and loitering in the store without all his gaming materials and not buying anything after multiple hours who got visibly angry when asked to leave, and argued to the point the police had to be referenced.
You got a nice view from that high horse? I've worked plenty of retail jobs and seen people get fired for just about anything you can think of. More than one customer complaint will usually do it, which is why people should always speak to a manager if an employee is being a douche canoe. The situation was handled poorly by the employee.
I've personally never had anything quite this bad happen, luckily I'm not overly short, or unimposing, so the worst I've had is a manager ask if there was anything in particular I wanted, I said I was just browsing and hoping for a game, and they left me to it.
I would definitely have a word with the manager, partaking in the hobby, within the hobby premises is no reason to be kicked out, and neither is not having a rule book. That's like being kicked out of game, because you didn't bring your Xbox with you to prove you can play the games! I've spent hours in my local GW just chatting about the games and painting, browsing the shelves and writing lists, and that's with a what I thought was a strict manager running the store.
If talking to the manager solves nothing, get your mum to go into the store and complain, nothing intimidates a store worker like an angry parent!
UltraPrime wrote: This has been an.... interesting read. But it seems to me that the actions of a store worker are the least of the issues. He was supposed to hang around a shop until 5.30 because both his parents were at work? THAT is the bigger issue!
I agree it would be better to hang around an art gallery or a sports field, but we live in a consumer society.
Interesting read. To the OP, congratulations on some pretty clear communication. I teach your age group and your writing skills are pretty good compared to many of your peers. Also you seem to have a fairly mature outlook.
A point for those saying the point of the store is to make money- in a hobby store for a niche hobby like GW, the most successful way to make money is to foster a community. This means making a place for people to engage in their hobby. The OP could quite easily have spent the money in his pocket on some video games and sat at home and played them, possibly even "with friends" over X Box live. That's what most of the students I deal with in his age group do in their leisure time. If someone is interested in the hobby it's good for the store to provide a place to meet likeminded people and actually engage in the hobby. If GW forget that, they're going to end up losing out I think.
Oh, and yeah, hell yeah, to 14 year olds should have some independence. Bad parenting is smothering a teenager and not allowing them to learn for themselves.
why is everyone saying this kid is so mature? He only left the shop after the worker threatened to call the police...clearly his response to being asked to leave wasn't 'well it seems unreasonable to me, but it's your shop. Expect a talking to from your manager.', more like he tried argueing and making a scene. Definitely not 'mature', and if i'd have been there i'd have gotten in touch with the manager myself, in support of the e
mployee.
Op i asked this earlier - where do you live in the uk that your busses only run every four hours?
xruslanx wrote: why is everyone saying this kid is so mature? He only left the shop after the worker threatened to call the police...clearly his response to being asked to leave wasn't 'well it seems unreasonable to me, but it's your shop. Expect a talking to from your manager.', more like he tried argueing and making a scene. Definitely not 'mature', and if i'd have been there i'd have gotten in touch with the manager myself, in support of the e
mployee.
Op i asked this earlier - where do you live in the uk that your busses only run every four hours?
People are saying he's mature because he has calmly and politely replied to gak like this, rather than ranting and raving and getting himself banned or the thread locked.
Take it from someone who lives in a rural area, there are plenty of places that only get a few buses a day. There are villages around here that are no more than a 25 minutes or so away from the largest town, yet to travel between them by bus would require catching a two or three times a day service to the next nearest town, then a change to a more regular service to the large town. This can take almost an hour itself without considering waiting around for buses at each point in the journey.
id appreciate the op saying where he lives rather than other posters chipping in and assuming he lives in the sticks. I also think that refusing to leave a store when the employee asks you too, then deciding that the best way of dealing with that is by making a public post on the store's facebook, definitely is not mature. That honestly sounds like the actions of a 10 year old, 14 year olds should know better.
Now we can ask, why were his parents okay with him spending his entire day in a commercial establishment, when they (presumably) know how sporadic the busses
are? How could a responsable parent think its okay for him to do that, knowing that he'll have to walk the streets until the evening time if he gets kicked out? With an entire army's worth of models no less.
Then when we factor in that he showed no interest in ordering the case, something the store clerk would have definitely offered, and he looks like a kid who bought his models online, pirates the pdf and insists on being able to play in a gw simply by pretending to want to buy something that's out of stock.
xruslanx wrote: id appreciate the op saying where he lives rather than other posters chipping in and assuming he lives in the sticks. I also think that refusing to leave a store when the employee asks you too, then deciding that the best way of dealing with that is by making a public post on the store's facebook, definitely is not mature. That honestly sounds like the actions of a 10 year old, 14 year olds should know better.
Now we can ask, why were his parents okay with him spending his entire day in a commercial establishment, when they (presumably) know how sporadic the busses
are? How could a responsable parent think its okay for him to do that, knowing that he'll have to walk the streets until the evening time if he gets kicked out? With an entire army's worth of models no less.
Then when we factor in that he showed no interest in ordering the case, something the store clerk would have definitely offered, and he looks like a kid who bought his models online, pirates the pdf and insists on being able to play in a gw simply by pretending to want to buy something that's out of stock.
To my knowledge there has been no claim about the OP pirating things which is quite an accusation to make out of the blue. OP has stated he will be talking it over with the store manager and since only the employee and OP have the full story that seems like the best course of action.
xruslanx wrote: id appreciate the op saying where he lives rather than other posters chipping in and assuming he lives in the sticks. I also think that refusing to leave a store when the employee asks you too, then deciding that the best way of dealing with that is by making a public post on the store's facebook, definitely is not mature. That honestly sounds like the actions of a 10 year old, 14 year olds should know better.
Now we can ask, why were his parents okay with him spending his entire day in a commercial establishment, when they (presumably) know how sporadic the busses
are? How could a responsable parent think its okay for him to do that, knowing that he'll have to walk the streets until the evening time if he gets kicked out? With an entire army's worth of models no less.
Then when we factor in that he showed no interest in ordering the case, something the store clerk would have definitely offered, and he looks like a kid who bought his models online, pirates the pdf and insists on being able to play in a gw simply by pretending to want to buy something that's out of stock.
He said his father would come in and place the order on credit card after work in one of his earlier posts. No mention of pirated rules, and he was making a list to plan out future purchases in the store (I'm assuming he would give his dad the cash he had for the case to go on credit card, and would have to build back up for another purchase later). Nowhere in his posts does he say he pirates rules or buys models elsewhere. Try reading posts next time, instead of just jumping to ridiculous conclusions: it helps to keep YOU from looking like a 10 year old. Also, you want a 14 year old kid to tell you what town he lives in on the internet? Great call, buddy. Other posters in similar areas have posted it's quite possible, based on their living situation. If it was an adult posting, fair enough: his location is acceptable to ask for. A minor though? Give me a break.
re read my post. I didnt accuse him of pirating, i said he looks like he did. How many times do you think gw stores have people who 'forgot' their codex or 'know it off by heart'? It's weird that people are so eager to view things from the pov of a child, rather than the adult.
Think about this for a moment - you dont know this kid, he shows up with a load of models but no rulebook (since he apparently cant fit it in - make of that what you will), refuses to make even a token purchase and proceeds to take up valuable floorspace, intending to do so for hours. All because *he says* that he's spent tonnes of money there in the past. Oh and when you try to kick him out, he refuses.
Yeah i'm sorry but i'm totally on the side of the adult on this one. It may be a missunderstanding but that doesn't mean anyone is to blame, welcome to the real world.
It's pretty much a given that when someone tells a story about how they were mistreated that there will be some who pop up to blame the person making the complaint. And others that will recognize that the complaint only represents one half the story. And others that will instantly side the person. We don't come to any situation without our preconceived ideas and most people are more than willing to form passionately held conclusions on the flimsiest of evidence. However on the internet. people can also hide behind their keyboards and insult people.
Regardless of what anyone thinks of the actual situation, the original poster Alex handled the whole range of responses very, very well.
xruslanx wrote: id appreciate the op saying where he lives rather than other posters chipping in and assuming he lives in the sticks. I also think that refusing to leave a store when the employee asks you too, then deciding that the best way of dealing with that is by making a public post on the store's facebook, definitely is not mature. That honestly sounds like the actions of a 10 year old, 14 year olds should know better.
Yeah, cause nobody in the course of human history has done something that was inadvisable because they felt aggrieved, angry or upset.
Now we can ask, why were his parents okay with him spending his entire day in a commercial establishment, when they (presumably) know how sporadic the busses
are? How could a responsable parent think its okay for him to do that, knowing that he'll have to walk the streets until the evening time if he gets kicked out? With an entire army's worth of models no less.
He was doing something he has done before, what possible reason could anybody have had to suspect that it wouldn't be the same? ie He would be able to play a game at the store without being kicked out?
Then when we factor in that he showed no interest in ordering the case, something the store clerk would have definitely offered, and he looks like a kid who bought his models online, pirates the pdf and insists on being able to play in a gw simply by pretending to want to buy something that's out of stock.
Firstly, you're making assumptions about the assistant 's behaviour (that he would have offered to order it) to support your argument while claiming others making assumptions about the OP are wrong? Explain that please.
Secondly, the OP was in fact a regular customer of the shop, had spent a large percentage of his income on product from that shop, and for a new staff member to not give the benefit of the doubt on the first time of meeting is just wrong. I've had customers that I've written off as time wasters after three or four visits to my store, but to do so on the first occasion is just ridiculous, especially when he appears to have gone in with cash to spend.
I have always been told GW stores were usually pressuring you into buying stuff or they don't know what they are talking about but this is bad. Talk to the manager, if nothing is done, don't spend anymore money there and find a friendly store nearby. Tell the manager you won't spend anymore money there if you at least don't get an apology, that will get his gears going.
I go to a local comic book store that has tabletop days, many people just show up to hang out and talk warhammer.
There are plenty friendly stores out there which you can play, hangout, meet people and get stuff cheaper.
p8ntba1141ife wrote: Tell the manager you won't spend anymore money there if you at least don't get an apology, that will get his gears going.
That is the exact opposite of what Alex should do. People have already pointed this out. Telling someone that you won't buy there anymore is a terrible idea. It shows immaturity and is what you should not do. Why would you want to 'get his gears going'? It's just not what you should do if you want to get a good response.
p8ntba1141ife wrote: Tell the manager you won't spend anymore money there if you at least don't get an apology, that will get his gears going.
That is the exact opposite of what Alex should do. People have already pointed this out. Telling someone that you won't buy there anymore is a terrible idea. It shows immaturity and is what you should not do. Why would you want to 'get his gears going'? It's just not what you should do if you want to get a good response.
Plus there is the obvious point, that its not the blokes own small business, its a multinational.
I figure the manager wouldn't give a flying feth if one guy decided to boycott the store anyway!
p8ntba1141ife wrote: Tell the manager you won't spend anymore money there if you at least don't get an apology, that will get his gears going.
That is the exact opposite of what Alex should do. People have already pointed this out. Telling someone that you won't buy there anymore is a terrible idea. It shows immaturity and is what you should not do. Why would you want to 'get his gears going'? It's just not what you should do if you want to get a good response.
Especially considering Alex said that he's been going there for a good while now. He likely gets on very well with his GW store manager, so to turn around and try to "get his gears going" so you say, would be immature indeed.
xruslanx wrote: why is everyone saying this kid is so mature? He only left the shop after the worker threatened to call the police...clearly his response to being asked to leave wasn't 'well it seems unreasonable to me, but it's your shop. Expect a talking to from your manager.', more like he tried argueing and making a scene. Definitely not 'mature', and if i'd have been there i'd have gotten in touch with the manager myself, in support of the employee.
Op i asked this earlier - where do you live in the uk that your busses only run every four hours?
According to your laws over there, that's what the manager at the time should have done from the start; from the moment Alex walked in and he could confirm that he was without adult supervision. Skipping past that, I want to ask you this question. How does having your afternoon plans of about four to five hours taken away from you sound? If you were faced with this situation, how would you react? Frankly, again; the manager was in the wrong at both points in this situation and Alex behaved fairly mild mannered for a child of his age which is to say exactly as expected given the circumstanced provided.
Now then, I do agree with the other side that it would be nice to hear the other side of this story.
nkelsch wrote: Customers are liars, and you are under a self-important delusion if you think a one-sided uncorroborated complaint gets someone easily fired in the US. Giving free gak is a payoff for delusional people who think they are getting people fired because their issue is so legitimate even when it isn't.
I absolutely agree with you Nklesch. Having worked McDs for four years I have seen adults act like children in my store. Lying and the like just to get what they wanted. However, I must point out to you that you and I are both on this side of the pond. Our way of thinking does not make it their way of thinking as well.
nkelsch wrote: Asking a loitering teen to leave isn't going to get anyone fired. Especially a one-sided complaint from a mouthy teen who had to have the threat of police being called.
According to the laws there again, thats what the manager should have done from the on set. From the story we have here, that's not what transpired.
nkelsch wrote: And yes, he was loitering, he was there a prolonged amount of time, and if a store says leave, you leave. You don't ever have a right to stay on private property, and if you get told to "move along" and you don't, you transcend from loitering to trespassing when on private property.
See above, I will however, agree with you on the second half as that statement is correct.
nkelsch wrote: You pretty much have to break the law with a customer to be fired on the spot from a customer complaint. To believe anything else is delusional because it simply is not true. This employee will not be fired due to the "complaints" of an unsupervised teen abandon by his parents and loitering in the store without all his gaming materials and not buying anything after multiple hours who got visibly angry when asked to leave, and argued to the point the police had to be referenced.
See, the problem with your take on this situation Nklesch is your perspective is from that of an American. You are thinking with our laws at the forefront and that is not the case with this situation. This happened in the UK, not here. To think with our laws is a fallacy as our laws are non-applicative. Most moral folks will agree with you that the manager was not in the wrong to threaten to call the police; hell, I don't either. However, the breakdown in this situation is that according to the laws across the pond, that's what the manager should have done from the start. No attempted transaction or attempted sale. Hell, not even a "would you like to buy a pot of paint?". A simple notification along the lines of:
"Hey, I saw you two walk in here and unless you have an adult bringing up the rear in a moment, I'm going to have to ask you two to leave."
Escalation to the police call from there as required. That's how this situation should have been handled per the law to be correct, however we both can assume that's not what happened. Reason I have little doubt to believe Alex is because of the situation as a whole; these are one/two-man stores with the whole premise of doing what? Making money. So, the conclusion I come to when I see members of our community jump on the "RAWR! Angst-y Teenager!" diatribe, is that I can't think of you as any better than that. I also expect a higher standard than that because of the nature of our community.
The point I'm making is, Alex reacted as anyone would expect a 14 year old teen to the situation. The manager did not act like an adult, nor a manager tasked with charge of that store given that situation. He simply wanted a sale and that's not how this situation should have been handled.
xruslanx wrote: re read my post. I didnt accuse him of pirating, i said he looks like he did. How many times do you think gw stores have people who 'forgot' their codex or 'know it off by heart'? It's weird that people are so eager to view things from the pov of a child, rather than the adult.
Think about this for a moment - you dont know this kid, he shows up with a load of models but no rulebook (since he apparently cant fit it in - make of that what you will), refuses to make even a token purchase and proceeds to take up valuable floorspace, intending to do so for hours. All because *he says* that he's spent tonnes of money there in the past. Oh and when you try to kick him out, he refuses.
Yeah i'm sorry but i'm totally on the side of the adult on this one. It may be a missunderstanding but that doesn't mean anyone is to blame, welcome to the real world.
Lets make it simple for you.
Alex "Hi I'd like to buy a large case for my models, this ones too small."
GW employee, "the large one is sixty pounds, but we have none in stock."
Alex "shame I've just managed to save up the money for it"
GW employee" well give me the money, and I can give you a load of stuff you don't need"
Alex "no thanks I really want a large game case"
GW employee wanders off to talk young kid out of pocket money.
Alex and friend set up game, Alex has no rule book only his codex. his friend has one so they share.
GW employee says" wheres your rule book?
Alex replies "I had to leave it at home" too big for this case"(large new rule book)
GW guy "well you can't play then, put your models away.
Alex does as he is told, puts army away. And starts to create army wish list.( future things to buy).
GW guy you can stop that get out.
Alex I have spent approximately 800 pounds here, every penny I've had, for Christmas and birthdays etc, and your treating me like this.
GW guy"yes though isn't it, get out or I'll call the police"
Alex leaves, and sits outside, where some thug kicks his case and breaks some of his models.
There that was as simple as I could make it.
TLDR Tough your loss
xruslanx wrote: id appreciate the op saying where he lives rather than other posters chipping in and assuming he lives in the sticks. I also think that refusing to leave a store when the employee asks you too, then deciding that the best way of dealing with that is by making a public post on the store's facebook, definitely is not mature. That honestly sounds like the actions of a 10 year old, 14 year olds should know better.
Now we can ask, why were his parents okay with him spending his entire day in a commercial establishment, when they (presumably) know how sporadic the busses
are? How could a responsable parent think its okay for him to do that, knowing that he'll have to walk the streets until the evening time if he gets kicked out? With an entire army's worth of models no less.
Then when we factor in that he showed no interest in ordering the case, something the store clerk would have definitely offered, and he looks like a kid who bought his models online, pirates the pdf and insists on being able to play in a gw simply by pretending to want to buy something that's out of stock.
Sorry, I've been away with family for the weekend so I couldn't check up on the thread. After checking up on it this post really stuck to me, how is this a fair representation of Me, Yourself or Dakka as a whole? First off, why does where I live matter, I mean at all. If it matters, as I said, I live in a small town in north wales, there are in fact 4 buses but the first one is to early and the fourth one is to late. But I don't really see how this is of relevance to my problem honestly. On the leaving straight away, you must for give me, for the fact he asked me to leave in the first place left me incredulous. I was a regular customer who has been into the store for years, and in my opinion was doing nothing wrong (This also happens to be the opinion of some other people in this thread. Of course, based on my one sided story) so my first reaction was to ask what I did wrong. He said I was doing nothing, which I disputed, leading to a conversation (argument? No one really raised there voice and no face value insults where said) until he ended it with take it up with the manager, I said gladly and left.
When I posted on the Facebook page, please read what I wrote IN said post before making judgements and implying I was 'But-Hurt' and immature. I did not directly complain on facebook, if you where to bother reading, but I instead asked which staff where working on which days (I had the intension to simply avoid him) and when the manager replied to ask why, I said a staff member was rude to me and I wished to talk to him. No details, no rants, no obvious bias (Unlike you, only in my humble opinion, of course). My GW has never, at least to me and my family, been advertised as a 'commercial establishment' but as a hobby store where I could pursue my hobby through either painting, gaming or collecting. IMHO List building (I'm not counting the gaming, because some people may dispute if I could play without a rule book, even if I was sharing one) falls firmly under the latter category. On the bus thing, I don't personally believe that the degree of parenting my parents provide (Very high if any one cares...Or my mother finds this post ^^) has any relevance to my problem really and the fact you are questioning them with only anecdotal evidence (Although, I guess I'm being hypocritical. I am asking for your opinion about my problem only using the same evidence) I find rather naïve.
On the fact that I shown no interest in Ordering a case, once again you have made a critical error of note reading ALL my posts before making (An apparently comprehensive) judge of my character. The staff member did NOT offer to order one for me (I'm guessing because someone said I doesn't count towards personal sales), but instead tried to make me spend my money on other things (No, don't tell me my army NEEDS your new wraithknight to function competitively). Where the idea that I bought my models online came from I have no idea, why would you, or indeed your imaginary store clerk, think this? The Pirating PDF's is simply wrong, as I have stated earlier that I brought my OWN codex for list building, what possible use would I have for PDF's when all my units are accounted for in my codex? I would think I would be able to play in GW simply because I am part of the hobby, and it was advertised to me as a Hobby centre and place to partake in this hobby. I am simply bewildered by the amount of people who will look at the other side of the argument (This is fine, gives people perspective and It really helped my understand the stores Law) on the sole evidence that I didn't show *His* side of the story (Sorry, those few people, I am not telepathic) so they believe they can 'Fill in the blanks' with there own version.
Once again thanks for the support, i will post again when i have an answer for you all. Until then i see very little reason to continue polluting Dakka with certain unnecessary and biased (Of coruse, in my own opinion) posts from a very select group of posters.
Well, the only thing I have to say about this thread at this point is that the OP has presented his case in a far more mature manner than the majority of the people criticizing him. And yes, I'm including the grammatical issues in that assertion.
It is always nice seeing the white knights on their high horses....
Me, I'd complain to the manager, and unless a pretty danged impressive apology was given then I would never spend another dime in his store. And I would let my friends know, and suggest that they go elsewhere. Hopefully enough customers are driven away that the store closes.
Yep - chasing away customers, and potential customers, is always a good idea!
TheAuldGrump wrote: It is always nice seeing the white knights on their high horses....
Yeah, because there's no way that a teenager would ever be rude and disrespectful towards an authority figure who they feel has wronged them.
Me, I'd complain to the manager, and unless a pretty danged impressive apology was given then I would never spend another dime in his store. And I would let my friends know, and suggest that they go elsewhere. Hopefully enough customers are driven away that the store closes.
The shop in question seems to have no reports of any problems with that employee aside from Alex's--at least to the point where someone has felt it big enough to post it on a forum.
TheAuldGrump wrote: It is always nice seeing the white knights on their high horses....
The Auld Grump
Makes it easier to place them on my database.
However there are those people who, can express their viewpoints in a logical manner (yes there are a few white knights that I will listen there side of the story) gets more attention (from me at least) than others.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: Quit whining because you were asked not to loiter. Remember why any store exists: making money. It isn't a library or a lounge.
I've had experience with you and I have an honest question: Why are you such an argumentative ass? Seriously be nicer, damn.
In the end here the manager is in the wrong because he could have added something to the army and bought a wraithknight or whatever big ticket item.
The FLGS is indeed a place to hang out, GW stores aren't of the same kin though.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: Quit whining because you were asked not to loiter. Remember why any store exists: making money. It isn't a library or a lounge.
I've had experience with you and I have an honest question: Why are you such an argumentative ass? Seriously be nicer, damn.
In the end here the manager is in the wrong because he could have added something to the army and bought a wraithknight or whatever big ticket item.
The FLGS is indeed a place to hang out, GW stores aren't of the same kin though.
Again, it was not the manager of the store in question.
I looked at Games Workshop Chester's Facebook page. They have a guy named "Danny" from GW Liverpool there filling in until the manager gets back on Thursday.
TheAuldGrump wrote: It is always nice seeing the white knights on their high horses....
Yeah, because there's no way that a teenager would ever be rude and disrespectful towards an authority figure who they feel has wronged them.
Me, I'd complain to the manager, and unless a pretty danged impressive apology was given then I would never spend another dime in his store. And I would let my friends know, and suggest that they go elsewhere. Hopefully enough customers are driven away that the store closes.
The shop in question seems to have no reports of any problems with that employee aside from Alex's--at least to the point where someone has felt it big enough to post it on a forum.
And given that he even stated that the employee involved was not the usual person....
I am more than willing to accept a random teenager's word that a temp employee would be as rude an ass as I could desire.
Or that some folks on this forum would defend a GW store if the employee beat a customer over the head, took his money, and stuffed a bag full of dry brush colours into his grubby hands.
TheAuldGrump wrote: It is always nice seeing the white knights on their high horses....
Yeah, because there's no way that a teenager would ever be rude and disrespectful towards an authority figure who they feel has wronged them.
Me, I'd complain to the manager, and unless a pretty danged impressive apology was given then I would never spend another dime in his store. And I would let my friends know, and suggest that they go elsewhere. Hopefully enough customers are driven away that the store closes.
The shop in question seems to have no reports of any problems with that employee aside from Alex's--at least to the point where someone has felt it big enough to post it on a forum.
And given that he even stated that the employee involved was not the usual person....
I am more than willing to accept a random teenager's word that a temp employee would be as rude an ass as I could desire.
So where are the complaints from GW Liverpool customers? If this "Danny" is a regular employee there--he must behave very similarly, so where are the complaints?
Or that some folks on this forum would defend a GW store if the employee beat a customer over the head, took his money, and stuffed a bag full of dry brush colours into his grubby hands.
The Auld Grump
Why is it that people can post nonsense like this and "not have an agenda"?
Heavens forbid someone actually post a defense of the shop or ask that people consider the circumstances of the event beyond the account of one party.
Solofalcon in particular isn't posting a defence, it's needlessly aggressive and inflammatory from the start. I'm of the mind that as we only have one side of the story it's hard to objective, but his contributions to this thread in particular have been predictably worthless.
TheAuldGrump wrote: It is always nice seeing the white knights on their high horses....
Yeah, because there's no way that a teenager would ever be rude and disrespectful towards an authority figure who they feel has wronged them.
Me, I'd complain to the manager, and unless a pretty danged impressive apology was given then I would never spend another dime in his store. And I would let my friends know, and suggest that they go elsewhere. Hopefully enough customers are driven away that the store closes.
The shop in question seems to have no reports of any problems with that employee aside from Alex's--at least to the point where someone has felt it big enough to post it on a forum.
And given that he even stated that the employee involved was not the usual person....
I am more than willing to accept a random teenager's word that a temp employee would be as rude an ass as I could desire.
So where are the complaints from GW Liverpool customers? If this "Danny" is a regular employee there--he must behave very similarly, so where are the complaints?
Not necessarily. He could be behaving like that because he's at a new store where he doesn't know the people who visit it and won't ever see them again. So all he cares about would be making money during his short stay, and not making friends.
TheAuldGrump wrote: It is always nice seeing the white knights on their high horses....
Yeah, because there's no way that a teenager would ever be rude and disrespectful towards an authority figure who they feel has wronged them.
Me, I'd complain to the manager, and unless a pretty danged impressive apology was given then I would never spend another dime in his store. And I would let my friends know, and suggest that they go elsewhere. Hopefully enough customers are driven away that the store closes.
The shop in question seems to have no reports of any problems with that employee aside from Alex's--at least to the point where someone has felt it big enough to post it on a forum.
And given that he even stated that the employee involved was not the usual person....
I am more than willing to accept a random teenager's word that a temp employee would be as rude an ass as I could desire.
So where are the complaints from GW Liverpool customers? If this "Danny" is a regular employee there--he must behave very similarly, so where are the complaints?
Not necessarily. He could be behaving like that because he's at a new store where he doesn't know the people who visit it and won't ever see them again. So all he cares about would be making money during his short stay, and not making friends.
For me the easy answer would have been to order the case in and pay for it.......and say you'll collect it next week, then then couldn't whine at you for not buying anything.
You shouldn't require a rulebook to play if you have your army and codex. One per table is enough. If you are a regular customer (and don't cause any trouble) they should not have asked you to leave and it is worth complaining about.
If you regularly play there you have an expectation to be able to continue to do that and it is unfair for a staff member to kick you out without cause.
As you are only 14 it's unlikely you'll have a lot of places to play as many clubs don't want kids there as they can be "difficult" and most older players want to leave the kids at home and enjoy a couple of games.
However on the other side of things, they don't have to let you play in there at all - EVER, it's their choice. If it got to the point where they were threating to call the police you must have been a total numpti.
The more problems that GW have the more restrictions they will place on in store gaming. They don't seem to want players in stores anymore. In that case they should just get on and say it, create a couple of gaming evenings for gaming and the rest is just shop time. That would solve a lot of issues/rumors that seem to be surfacing
SoulDrinker wrote: If it got to the point where they were threating to call the police you must have been a total numpti.
It's just as likely that this is one of those staff that gets off on having power over children and behaves like a tool because they can, I've met enough of them in my time in the UK chain.
SoulDrinker wrote: If it got to the point where they were threating to call the police you must have been a total numpti.
It's just as likely that this is one of those staff that gets off on having power over children and behaves like a tool because they can, I've met enough of them in my time in the UK chain.
Well, to me it looks like the staff was within his legal rights to behave like he did, but as an adult he should have presented himself a bit less flappable in front of a minor; threatening to call the police in such a situation seems to me pretty ridiculous and overblown.
On the other hand I'd like to know what the OP meant by "[...] and I got, understandably, agitated." - agitated in what way? From the way Alex has presented himself in this thread, I would assume he wasn't actually bratty or obnoxious, but all in all this rather seems to be a "one word led to another" situation.
TheAuldGrump wrote: It is always nice seeing the white knights on their high horses....
Yeah, because there's no way that a teenager would ever be rude and disrespectful towards an authority figure who they feel has wronged them.
Any teenager? Of course. This teenager? I'm more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt.
Me, I'd complain to the manager, and unless a pretty danged impressive apology was given then I would never spend another dime in his store. And I would let my friends know, and suggest that they go elsewhere. Hopefully enough customers are driven away that the store closes.
The shop in question seems to have no reports of any problems with that employee aside from Alex's--at least to the point where someone has felt it big enough to post it on a forum.
There were loads, but then they closed that Facebook page and reopened a new account. This is of course, a fiction, but no stronger argument than "I can't see anything, therefore it does not exist."
ThePrimordial wrote:
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: Quit whining because you were asked not to loiter. Remember why any store exists: making money. It isn't a library or a lounge.
I've had experience with you and I have an honest question: Why are you such an argumentative ass? Seriously be nicer, damn.
In the end here the manager is in the wrong because he could have added something to the army and bought a wraithknight or whatever big ticket item.
The FLGS is indeed a place to hang out, GW stores aren't of the same kin though.
Howard A Treesong wrote:Solofalcon in particular isn't posting a defence, it's needlessly aggressive and inflammatory from the start. I'm of the mind that as we only have one side of the story it's hard to objective, but his contributions to this thread in particular have been predictably worthless.
Agreed, its getting to the point that, being charitable, I'm thinking Dakka must be some sort of vent because of ongoing real life issues, or being less charitable, the account is one of the most sophisticated trolling exercises in the history of the Internet.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: Quit whining because you were asked not to loiter. Remember why any store exists: making money. It isn't a library or a lounge.
I've had experience with you and I have an honest question: Why are you such an argumentative ass? Seriously be nicer, damn.
In the end here the manager is in the wrong because he could have added something to the army and bought a wraithknight or whatever big ticket item.
The FLGS is indeed a place to hang out, GW stores aren't of the same kin though.
I'm argumentative when people are obviously acting foolish and asinine. This kid is complaining because he was asked to leave a store he was loitering in. When people think that a game store entitles them to lounge around and get indignant when asked to pateonize the business or leave, it is ridiculous. The OP was whining because he was asked to leave and then was arguing with the employee. I work retail, and we have asked people to leave who are just loitering in the store, its well within a store's rights.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: Quit whining because you were asked not to loiter. Remember why any store exists: making money. It isn't a library or a lounge.
Loitering? I think you may have me confused with the stereotypical teen here, as this is a really unfair comment. This is a store I regularly visit and spend lots of money at, am I not thinking I would be afforded just a little respect? Your store may be 'Just a store' but when the manager is around, it becomes more of a community. Everyone is nice to everyone and everyone shares tips on how to play/paint the hobby we are all into. When did gamesworkshop decide to kill of the community it has been developing for decades, because it obviously hasn't succeeded other non of us would be here (well, you Warmachine people can stay ). The problem is there are no other hobby stores around that I know of, and no other GW's within easy reach. So that store IS my warhammer life, if that becomes somewhere that I cannot play the game, then the game will end for me altogether.
Edit @ Curran, I wasn't browsing their rule book, I was looking through my own codex which I had room for in my case, and the main rule book we used belonged to my opponent/friend. Also thanks for the comment on my posting, I try to type up everything on Word first before I post. I have quite bad dyslexia (Why would they spell it like that? Why is there a Y??? ) so I like to use word to check my spellings and such.
Its not a club, its a store. They had no duty to allow you to stay for any reason. Its your problem if you have no place to go.
On the positive, Ilike your chutzpah in using different buses etc. Thats unheard of in Texas. Of course, here you have to fight off Comanche attacks at the station, to its best to bring your Winchester.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: I work retail, and we have asked people to leave who are just loitering in the store, its well within a store's rights.
So, you work retail?
It is indeed a fact that there are some incompetent staff, usually those in menial positions, at retail outlets who believe that customers are an impediment to their job.
If you plan to make a success of retail, you should work on your manners, and you should also observe company policies - such as that of GW, who say they welcome gamers. You should also develop an eye for detail, which in this case involves reading what the OP actually said.
Oh, and I bought my first house working retail in the vacations when I was a student. I liked customers, for with all their faults, they are after all just like me or you.
RiTides wrote: Again, the key difference is that the shop was okay with him staying if he bought a bottle of paint.
And?
If he "bought a bottle of paint", he's a paying customer and not someone just hanging around.
That's a different policy than not allowing minors to stay in the store at all. And given that the OP had come specifically to purchase something and then play a game, it's really not how you are making it out, Kan.
I'm reading it.
I also do not really believe that the exchange went as he put, since as we have seen who knows how many times, there is always more to the story.
This is a day of days. Frazzled and Kanluwen agree on all points.
I will add-get a job you little Hippy! Your parents didn't have you to lay around playing games. You've got to earn!
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: Just because you patronize a store doesn't entitle you to waste space. I have heard the line "do you know how much money I spend here?!?" as a bartender often enough to know that no customer is actually paying our bills. Did the employee go about it the wrong way? yes he did. But no one is entitled to hang out in any store just because he has nothing better to do.
Edited
The store exists to sell the hobby. The hobby happens in the store therefore He had done nothing wrong.
However as someone had pointed out they still have a legal right to ask them to leave. (Disclaimer; I am not a law expert so I could be wrong.)
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: I work retail, and we have asked people to leave who are just loitering in the store, its well within a store's rights.
It is indeed a fact that there are some incompetent staff, usually those in menial positions, at retail outlets who believe that customers are an impediment to their job. I liked customers, for with all their faults, they are after all just like me or you.
I used to work retail - its also a fact that some customers never let common sense get in the way of an argument. I've never let emotion blind me from common sense in a discussion with shop staff - I also treat shop staff with respect so they aren't all like me or you Like we had one guy who wanted a pressure washer - we didn't have any cheap ones, so he wanted the expensive one reduced to the cheaper price. He insisted I went and got a manager after I told him no 6 different ways (we were getting more in in a couple of days). The manager then said no too. He shouted, swore and stormed off in a huff. I hope I'm never like that.
GW is a shop - they are there to take money from people. The OP got kicked out of his shop for not having a rule book - while thats the first time I've heard of someone unlucky enough to be on the receiving end of that asinine rule, its within the GW guys right to ask him to leave because of it. Just because the Staff guy was a twerp, doesn't mean he was completely wrong. I think its a case of a staff member on a bad day who didn't care. Normally, locals GW's can be relied on to bend over backwards to get people in, buying and telling their friends what a good store they are.
I think the OP is taking the best course of action - speaking to the manager to express his concerns when the guy who kicked him out isn't there.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: Just because you patronize a store doesn't entitle you to waste space. I have heard the line "do you know how much money I spend here?!?" as a bartender often enough to know that no customer is actually paying our bills. Did the employee go about it the wrong way? yes he did. But no one is entitled to hang out in any store just because he has nothing better to do.
The store exists to sell the hobby. The hobby happens in the store therefore He had done nothing wrong.
However as someone had pointed out they still have a legal right to ask them to leave. (Disclaimer; I am not a law expert so I could be wrong.)
Its a private premises - staff are allowed to ask people to leave. EG: If you don't eat in a restaurant but just hang out with your mates, they ask you to leave.
Go sit in mcdonalds, don't buy anything and see how long you're allowed to stay there
Edit:I'm in complete agreement with SoloFalcon - the store guy was a douche, but its within his rights to ask someone to leave.
Why is the minor the issue? His friend (also likely a minor) was not removed from the store. It's about the money. Stop trying to change the parameters of the issue by introducing your rants on child care.
That is the issue. The store has no duty to be happy play time care for Jr.
Like a beam of light from the heavens, all becomes clear.
Please tell me what that means?
I'm assuming his attitude is because he works a gakky job in a gakky store and he resents his customers, hence the bitterness.
In fact the whole picture I'm getting is the "dead end job, lives in mom's basement, spends all his money on Warhams and all his time being anonymously rude to people to try and make himself feel better" vibe right now.
It's ok Solofalcon, its ok. There, there, let it out, we can't all be Unicorns.
Like a beam of light from the heavens, all becomes clear.
Please tell me what that means?
I'm assuming his attitude is because he works a gakky job in a gakky store and he resents his customers, hence the bitterness.
In fact the whole picture I'm getting is the "dead end job, lives in mom's basement, spends all his money on Warhams and all his time being anonymously rude to people to try and make himself feel better" vibe right now.
It's ok Solofalcon, its ok. There, there, let it out, we can't all be Unicorns.
Your being somewhat rude too. Is this a case of you're shouting loudest therefore you're right?
Oh and excusing him for working retail and being rude should make it somewhat easier for you to see the point he is making, no?
Your being somewhat rude too. Is this a case of your shouting loudest therefore your right?
Oh and excusing him for working retail and being rude should make it somewhat easier for you to see the point he is making, no?
The fact he works retail is not something to be criticised for.
The fact he works retail and takes a "the customer is always wrong" attitude, does indeed explain a lot about him.
almost any job is fine, if you work at it and try to do it well. If your first reaction to a question is to insult the OP in question well... he needs to work on his customer skills, and it's hard not to infer a lifestyle along the lines azreal suggest.
WillyBRags wrote: it's kinda funny...my friend was at the games workshop store in halifax nova scotia in the last couple weeks (I just seen him today after a chunk of time) and he was telling me how he was being harassed by a worker there to buy something....so I'm starting to figure that's how games workshop people are suppose to act....like used car sales men
about the whole child thing....if the people know you are there usually spending money and you just want to browse or do something related to the hobby they should just piss off....I say the op should go back there at night with a huge rock and smash the place! lol probably not a good idea...rage against the machine man!
Your post screams 12 year old. An adult would not advise using a rock on a store they disagree with.
Like a beam of light from the heavens, all becomes clear.
Please tell me what that means?
I'm assuming his attitude is because he works a gakky job in a gakky store and he resents his customers, hence the bitterness.
In fact the whole picture I'm getting is the "dead end job, lives in mom's basement, spends all his money on Warhams and all his time being anonymously rude to people to try and make himself feel better" vibe right now.
It's ok Solofalcon, its ok. There, there, let it out, we can't all be Unicorns.
Your being somewhat rude too. Is this a case of you're shouting loudest therefore you're right?
Oh and excusing him for working retail and being rude should make it somewhat easier for you to see the point he is making, no?
Turnabout is fair play, and there's a whole world of difference between taking the piss, hence my smiley and the abrasive, blunt and abrupt manner he frequently employs.
I have, like Solofalcon, worked entirely in retail or hospitality my entire career (albeit at management level for a goodly portion of it) and I completely disagree with any "point" that might lie behind his comments.
Unless someone is outright rude, disruptive or acting in a criminal manner (and this does happen) you never throw someone out! Even if they don't buy something today, you always do your utmost to give them a positive experience to enhance the chances of their business in future.
I've even sent potential customers to competitors if I wasn't in a position to help them with their specific needs, because in 6 months time, all they'll really remember is that my store was friendly and helpful.
Much like GW though, this employee has apparently taken the short term view of take his money now, sod if he comes back in the future, which I guess makes him some sort of success of their training program.
Fenrir Kitsune wrote: One sided original story is one sided. I'd like to hear the full thing before jumping up and denouncing GW staff and policies.
The kid could have been a total gobshite for all we know.
Judging by the fact he posted here, in a VERY civil manor (especially for a youth) and described the situation in the manor he did, I would venture to guess that this was a case of "discrimination" by a cranky neckbeard.
I would venture to say no...anyone can be polite when expressing their own story. Then we find out in reality they were total wastes of human skin.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: Quit whining because you were asked not to loiter. Remember why any store exists: making money. It isn't a library or a lounge.
I've had experience with you and I have an honest question: Why are you such an argumentative ass? Seriously be nicer, damn.
In the end here the manager is in the wrong because he could have added something to the army and bought a wraithknight or whatever big ticket item.
The FLGS is indeed a place to hang out, GW stores aren't of the same kin though.
I'm argumentative when people are obviously acting foolish and asinine. This kid is complaining because he was asked to leave a store he was loitering in. When people think that a game store entitles them to lounge around and get indignant when asked to pateonize the business or leave, it is ridiculous. The OP was whining because he was asked to leave and then was arguing with the employee. I work retail, and we have asked people to leave who are just loitering in the store, its well within a store's rights.
Strange, since the first post, you haven't actually responded directly to me, you have offered no help to my situation other then 'Stop moaning' and have in my opinion been biased against what ever I post. I was not originally, in your opinion, loitering because I was playing a game. He then decided to ask to see my rule book (This is fine I guess, but why he would ask me specifically is beyond me) I said I couldn't fit one in my current case so I was sharing with my friend I was playing, he then told me to pack up. I don't understand why you are calling the Hobby centres 'Gaming Stores'. No where on the gamesworkshop website does it refer to its stores as 'Gaming' stores, but in several places does it refer to them as hobby centres. These stores also advertise a 'Come in and play' to people of all ages, so if a new person to the hobby came in to play, but didn't buy the Rulebook, should we assume little Timmy can't play either, even with his parents supervision? Because I little voice is telling me that the new player wouldn't of been asked about where HIS rulebook was. The store advertises itself for people to come in and play, paint and collect, I was getting indigent over the fact he was asking me to leave when I was fulfilling 2 of these 3 criteria as well as regularly patronizing this store. Sure you may of worked in retail, but unless you worked in retail for a GW or Independent hobby centre, then your experience and what a hobby store employee would be expected to do may well be different things. Work in retail all you like, but from your obvious dislike of people, please don't branch into customer service.
In reply to what I meant when I said I got agitated, I meant I began to argue my point rather then just getting up and leaving straight away. Maybe I should of just left without question, as some of you are saying, but I strongly believed what he was doing was unfair. If what he was doing was within his rights to do or not, I think if something is unfair to anyone, it should be questioned, that's how I was brought up. I understand this would probably not make me a good house or car salesmen because of how they usually 'sugar-coat' the truth behind there wears.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: Quit whining because you were asked not to loiter. Remember why any store exists: making money. It isn't a library or a lounge.
The kids 14, give him a break.
Have you not read the thread? At 14 he should be toiling in the fields whilst the fiery ball is in the sky!
At least according to some...
Now there is someone who understands. This thread should not be about GW's handling of a 14 year old. It should be about whether or not this 14 year is going to get his 6th anniversay cupcake in the mine itself or topside.
....Unless someone is outright rude, disruptive or acting in a criminal manner (and this does happen)you never throw someone out! Even if they don't buy something today, you always do your utmost to give them a positive experience to enhance the chances of their business in future.
I've even sent potential customers to competitors if I wasn't in a position to help them with their specific needs, because in 6 months time, all they'll really remember is that my store was friendly and helpful.
Much like GW though, this employee has apparently taken the short term view of take his money now, sod if he comes back in the future, which I guess makes him some sort of success of their training program.
Indeed you are right, but the leap that many (including myself) have made is that unless someone is doing something out of the ordinary (ala the type of activities you denote) why would push the proverbial big red button and eject/threaten police. The Op has indicated that he was crossing the line between acceptable behaviour and not (becoming agitated). There is something missing from this tale, me I like to fill it with DRAMA!
I also worked in a customer facing job pre-Career as a Nightclub Doorman. Now that was customer service with a (gappy) smile!
SoloFalcon1138 wrote: Quit whining because you were asked not to loiter. Remember why any store exists: making money. It isn't a library or a lounge.
I've had experience with you and I have an honest question: Why are you such an argumentative ass? Seriously be nicer, damn. In the end here the manager is in the wrong because he could have added something to the army and bought a wraithknight or whatever big ticket item. The FLGS is indeed a place to hang out, GW stores aren't of the same kin though.
I'm argumentative when people are obviously acting foolish and asinine. This kid is complaining because he was asked to leave a store he was loitering in. When people think that a game store entitles them to lounge around and get indignant when asked to pateonize the business or leave, it is ridiculous. The OP was whining because he was asked to leave and then was arguing with the employee. I work retail, and we have asked people to leave who are just loitering in the store, its well within a store's rights.
Strange, since the first post, you haven't actually responded directly to me, you have offered no help to my situation other then 'Stop moaning' and have in my opinion been biased against what ever I post. I was not originally, in your opinion, loitering because I was playing a game. He then decided to ask to see my rule book (This is fine I guess, but why he would ask me specifically is beyond me) I said I couldn't fit one in my current case so I was sharing with my friend I was playing, he then told me to pack up. I don't understand why you are calling the Hobby centres 'Gaming Stores'. No where on the gamesworkshop website does it refer to its stores as 'Gaming' stores, but in several places does it refer to them as hobby centres. These stores also advertise a 'Come in and play' to people of all ages, so if a new person to the hobby came in to play, but didn't buy the Rulebook, should we assume little Timmy can't play either, even with his parents supervision? Because I little voice is telling me that the new player wouldn't of been asked about where HIS rulebook was. The store advertises itself for people to come in and play, paint and collect, I was getting indigent over the fact he was asking me to leave when I was fulfilling 2 of these 3 criteria as well as regularly patronizing this store. Sure you may of worked in retail, but unless you worked in retail for a GW or Independent hobby centre, then your experience and what a hobby store employee would be expected to do may well be different things. Work in retail all you like, but from your obvious dislike of people, please don't branch into customer service.
In the OP - Why did the staff guy threaten to call the police? What did you mean by agitated? is agitated angry and discousive or is agitated smacking the employee with his own pc for being a douche?
In all honesty, I think you've alreday got the right of it - speak to the manager.
At 15 pages I think this has been discussed appropriately, with opinions recycling heavily at this point. Two ways to see it, just depends on personal values where you fall.
The interesting thing about GW is while they're greedy by even corporate standards, they're still very selective and intend to drive away certain niches of customers. Frankly put, they do not want the money of older veteran gamer-orientated customers. Or if they do, they simply want you to order it online and stay away from their stores. The management has a huge disdain for the aforementioned group.
Where is the new info? I can't see anything new in the OP, nor in a post since it was unlocked
Maybe OP alerted MajorTom so that he could post new info but, prehaps due to differing time zones, by the time it was unlocked OP was not able to post the new information up?
Harriticus wrote: The interesting thing about GW is while they're greedy by even corporate standards, they're still very selective and intend to drive away certain niches of customers. Frankly put, they do not want the money of older veteran gamer-orientated customers. Or if they do, they simply want you to order it online and stay away from their stores. The management has a huge disdain for the aforementioned group.
Where is the new info? I can't see anything new in the OP, nor in a post since it was unlocked
Maybe OP alerted MajorTom so that he could post new info but, prehaps due to differing time zones, by the time it was unlocked OP was not able to post the new information up?
Where is the new info? I can't see anything new in the OP, nor in a post since it was unlocked
Maybe OP alerted MajorTom so that he could post new info but, prehaps due to differing time zones, by the time it was unlocked OP was not able to post the new information up?
I was thinking similar, especially as Alex is only 14, he won't be up til the wee small hours.
Will be interested to see what's occurred, as it was me who originally PMed Tom and suggested he send Alex a message that if he wanted to reopen the thread to post a resolution, to get in touch.
Tom agreed, so I guess that has happened, we'll probably have to wait til tomorrow now.
Having taught 14 year olds for 5 years, I can safely say that based on my experience they rank highly ;-). That any anyone that calls themselves a "trader" as a profession.
I used to teach military history, military science, and role playing games to folks around that age, but then it was at a program for the gifted and talented, so my sample may be biased.
I miss that program, been more than a decade since it folded....
Well, things have moved along a bit. I went into the store this weekend thinking I would simply let it go and never see him again, but then the Store manager asked me for a written letter of complaint. I said I didn't really want to take it that far, given I am unlikely to see him again. He then said that he would like a letter from me because some other people have complained FOR me and he wanted to hear the story from me. I was a little surprised to be honest, I never thought anyone would go so far to write in and complain to the manager about the substitute for me. But I've decided that if some other people took my side, who although he didn't say there names, then I should at least give an account of what happened.
I think I will keep the letter brief and simply explain circumstances without bias (So without adjectives it seems ) so he can get the full picture. Would anyone be up for reviewing my letter when I finish it? I would like someone to point out grammatical errors Word may miss and say if I sound demanding or 'Entitled' which I wouldn't want.
Thanks.
Edit: Sorry I'm late, I was waiting on a PM notification from the Mod, never thought to actually check the Thread (Doh!).
I've personally hung out in a GW store all day and not bought anything. They never kicked me out. In many of the stores I go to they let you sit down and read through the codex's while you are waiting. I've read almost every fantasy codex in this fashion.
I do find it annoying however that the second you step in through the door you are assailed by a horde of sweaty shop assistants begging you to buy their products.
Others have already chimed in, but I'm also certified to be a high school English teacher, and I can be a total grammar Nazi too, so I'd be happy to help proofread as well. I'd only let you know of punctuation and spelling errors, as I'm not going to suggest word changes (unless something looks potentially very offensive) as it's your letter, and should totally be in your own words. What is your time factor for having it reviewed? Work this week will be busy until Thursday evening, so I may not be your best bet, but if you can wait that long, I can certainly help out.
I've missed the last 3 pages or so but has anyone apologised to the OP , which they should considering the amount of unwarranted crap that was thrown his way?
Bullockist wrote: I've missed the last 3 pages or so but has anyone apologised to the OP , which they should considering the amount of unwarranted crap that was thrown his way?
This being the Internet, their lack of participation is probably as much as you'll get from most posters.
Internet cookie to anyone with the stones to make me a liar though.
Bullockist wrote: I've missed the last 3 pages or so but has anyone apologised to the OP , which they should considering the amount of unwarranted crap that was thrown his way?
This being the Internet, their lack of participation is probably as much as you'll get from most posters.
Internet cookie to anyone with the stones to make me a liar though.
My guess would be they all moved to other threads where they could flame someone else.
Alex- Good luck my friend. Please let us now if anything new transpires. You have my respect for handling this thread the way you have despite all the negativity you have received.
Bullockist wrote: I've missed the last 3 pages or so but has anyone apologised to the OP , which they should considering the amount of unwarranted crap that was thrown his way?
Why? We still have no evidence he acted appropriately, even he admitted he got 'angry', and even if you are 'wronged' making a scene or escalating a fight instantly justifies your ejection. Leaving calmly and doing as your told and writing a letter would have been more appropriate.
And being an unsupervised minor magnifies everything as you really have no rights or expectation of rights. Even if something is done unfairly, reacting poorly dismisses everything. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Where are the parents in all of this? REGARDLESS of how the incident turned out with the one employee, there does seem that a responsible parent would use this incident to have a talk with the manager in regards to 'my child will be under your supervision for possibly 6-8 hours a day multiple times in the summer, Please call me if there is an issue with his behavior or a problem involving him and I will come down and see you about it.' I was in my local GW this weekend, and pretty much every kid who was 'left alone' had an agreement with the manager, phone number for parent and a rough idea when the child would be claimed. You would be surprised how 'common' it is for people to do something as simple as ask permission to leave your kid there and give them contact info.
Bullockist wrote: I've missed the last 3 pages or so but has anyone apologised to the OP , which they should considering the amount of unwarranted crap that was thrown his way?
Why? We still have no evidence he acted appropriately, even he admitted he got 'angry', and even if you are 'wronged' making a scene or escalating a fight instantly justifies your ejection. Leaving calmly and doing as your told and writing a letter would have been more appropriate.
And being an unsupervised minor magnifies everything as you really have no rights or expectation of rights. Even if something is done unfairly, reacting poorly dismisses everything. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Where are the parents in all of this? REGARDLESS of how the incident turned out with the one employee, there does seem that a responsible parent would use this incident to have a talk with the manager in regards to 'my child will be under your supervision for possibly 6-8 hours a day multiple times in the summer, Please call me if there is an issue with his behavior or a problem involving him and I will come down and see you about it.' I was in my local GW this weekend, and pretty much every kid who was 'left alone' had an agreement with the manager, phone number for parent and a rough idea when the child would be claimed. You would be surprised how 'common' it is for people to do something as simple as ask permission to leave your kid there and give them contact info.
Wow back the this again......... Like a record stuck on a track. He wasn't the only one there that was unsupervised. Also the manager got the same complaint from others in the store that day......... Getting 'angry' does not mean he acted out. Why do (most) people always think that getting angry means the same thing as acting poorly.
Wow some people do not want the give up the ship even when it is sinking.
nkelsch wrote: And being an unsupervised minor magnifies everything as you really have no rights or expectation of rights.
Thought I'd check in to this thread, since it's gone one for 10 pages or the like since I last braved checking in.
Nkelsch, the above statement is I think why I really can't see where you're coming from. I just have no idea where you're getting that from, or why you're viewing the issue from that angle / perspective. Of course underage people have rights, whether or not they are with a parent/guardian. That statement is simply false... there's no other way to say it. Add to it, you were responding to someone asking if there's been an apology, when in fact, there Has been movement on that front! See the quote at the bottom of my post below. They are at the very least investigating, as they should.
As a former teacher (as well as a number of other posters here, it seems!) I never, ever would consider that underage people "have no rights or expectation of rights" just because they are not with their parent/guardian at the time. If there were ever a complaint regarding a situation with a minor, if anything it was taken More seriously than it would be if it were a complaint between two adults. Minors have rights, and society usually does a good job of making sure they are not taken advantage of, by taking situations/complaints like this seriously.
Bullockist wrote: I've missed the last 3 pages or so but has anyone apologised to the OP , which they should considering the amount of unwarranted crap that was thrown his way?
There seems to be progress on that front, see his update quoted below:
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Well, things have moved along a bit. I went into the store this weekend thinking I would simply let it go and never see him again, but then the Store manager asked me for a written letter of complaint. I said I didn't really want to take it that far, given I am unlikely to see him again. He then said that he would like a letter from me because some other people have complained FOR me and he wanted to hear the story from me. I was a little surprised to be honest, I never thought anyone would go so far to write in and complain to the manager about the substitute for me. But I've decided that if some other people took my side, who although he didn't say there names, then I should at least give an account of what happened.
I think I will keep the letter brief and simply explain circumstances without bias (So without adjectives it seems ) so he can get the full picture. Would anyone be up for reviewing my letter when I finish it? I would like someone to point out grammatical errors Word may miss and say if I sound demanding or 'Entitled' which I wouldn't want.
Wow back the this again......... Like a record stuck on a track. He wasn't the only one there that was unsupervised. Also the manager got the same complaint from others in the store that day......... Getting 'angry' does not mean he acted out. Why do (most) people always think that getting angry means the same thing as acting poorly.
Wow some people do not want the give up the ship even when it is sinking.
So...what? Because he wasn't the only one its okay?
I mean, it's good that the OP looks like this is going to be resolved, and the fact that the manager requested a formal complaint indicates that he's probably had issues with this substitute employee before.
I think he meant the opposite, cincy (that because he was not the only one there unsupervised, it was random).
And I agree, the fact that the manager asked for a written letter of complaint, and has apparently had other complaints about the incident from customers, probably means he is looking to take disciplinary action regarding the employee. Even if it is nothing else, it clearly was bad customer service / bad for the store's reputation, and I'm sure the manager wants to make it clear he's addressing it.
Bullockist wrote: I've missed the last 3 pages or so but has anyone apologised to the OP , which they should considering the amount of unwarranted crap that was thrown his way?
Why? We still have no evidence he acted appropriately, even he admitted he got 'angry', and even if you are 'wronged' making a scene or escalating a fight instantly justifies your ejection. Leaving calmly and doing as your told and writing a letter would have been more appropriate.
And being an unsupervised minor magnifies everything as you really have no rights or expectation of rights. Even if something is done unfairly, reacting poorly dismisses everything. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Where are the parents in all of this? REGARDLESS of how the incident turned out with the one employee, there does seem that a responsible parent would use this incident to have a talk with the manager in regards to 'my child will be under your supervision for possibly 6-8 hours a day multiple times in the summer, Please call me if there is an issue with his behavior or a problem involving him and I will come down and see you about it.' I was in my local GW this weekend, and pretty much every kid who was 'left alone' had an agreement with the manager, phone number for parent and a rough idea when the child would be claimed. You would be surprised how 'common' it is for people to do something as simple as ask permission to leave your kid there and give them contact info.
Wow back the this again......... Like a record stuck on a track. He wasn't the only one there that was unsupervised. Also the manager got the same complaint from others in the store that day......... Getting 'angry' does not mean he acted out. Why do (most) people always think that getting angry means the same thing as acting poorly.
Wow some people do not want the give up the ship even when it is sinking.
Any kid 'getting angry' and yelling or arguing with an adult, especially when he is not supervised by his parents is a problem. He should have left without a word and brought his parents to talk to the manager. He had no right to be there, no right to stay, is only there based upon the 'good graces' of the store, and he was neglected and unsupervised by his parents who should have been able to come get him when there was a problem. Regardless what happened, the fact he was unsupervised makes him instantly wrong, he should have left without incident.
If I was a customer and I saw a unsupervised child arguing or causing a scene, I would have asked the store to eject him and/or call the police. Two wrongs don't make a right. Children don't have the right to 'argue', that is what parental supervision is for.
His case would have been stronger if the employee was forced to admit 'he left without incident'.
nkeslch wrote:Children don't have the right to 'argue', that is what parental supervision is for.
Again, this is simply untrue. A minor whose rights (which they do indeed have) are being violated certainly may "argue".
See my post above... again, as a former teacher, the idea that a minor is not allowed to argue with an adult without their parent/guardian present is... well, a bit shocking, and definitely not true! At least, not in the US or UK, or most other developed countries I would imagine.
I can't get past the whole "loitering" thing. Do you not have FLGSes with game rooms where you're at? The shop I work at is quite proud of our game room, and have invested a good bit of money expanding and remodeling it over the years. People are encouraged to hang out, play games, or simply just loiter around. Game room will stay open longer than the store, depending who around has keys to it or we have a key to it we can loan out. And I don't just mean the game room either. People will hang out around the counter/case and chat with the employees and other customers. There's a TV on the shop floor playing whatever the employees feel like putting on, usually comic book movies since we Are a comic shop after all, and there will often be someone or two standing around in front of it watching it. The more time people spend in your store, the more likely they are to buy something from you, even if they don't buy anything from you that particular day. It builds up the good will that a brick and mortar needs to compete with all the discount online retailers.
Any kid 'getting angry' and yelling or arguing with an adult, especially when he is not supervised by his parents is a problem. He should have left without a word and brought his parents to talk to the manager. He had no right to be there, no right to stay, is only there based upon the 'good graces' of the store
Supposition. Nowhere does he state that he yelled, or argued. Yelling is not prerequisite for being angry. If you had read his letter explaining the events (I have, he PM'd those who offered to check spelling and grammar) you'd know he essentially tried to stand his ground, and when it became apparent it wasn't doing any good, did as he was told. He didn't hulk out and try to insert a Flyrant into the CSA's intimate area.
He was neglected and unsupervised by his parents who should have been able to come get him when there was a problem. Regardless what happened, the fact he was unsupervised makes him instantly wrong, he should have left without incident.
Unsupervised, yes, but neglected? Hardly, as a 14 year old, he is perfectly entitled to be out on his own, and his parents are completely entitled to let him. No laws were broken.
When I was his age, my parents allowed me and my friends to roam the countryside on foot or bike, because they trusted me to behave. A trust I by and large justified. I had no idea I had a neglected childhood until now. Perhaps I should contact social services and see if my parents can be retrospectively prosecuted?
If I was a customer and I saw a unsupervised child arguing or causing a scene, I would have asked the store to eject him and/or call the police. Two wrongs don't make a right. Children don't have the right to 'argue', that is what parental supervision is for.
Again, supposition. You seem to have this impression of what happened, and don't seem willing to let the facts in the way of that. I am seriously beginning to think you must have some sort of personal experience that this is bringing up unpleasant memories of, because your reaction really seems disproportionate and totally disconnected from the facts as they're presented.
Any kid 'getting angry' and yelling or arguing with an adult, especially when he is not supervised by his parents is a problem. He should have left without a word and brought his parents to talk to the manager. He had no right to be there, no right to stay, is only there based upon the 'good graces' of the store, and he was neglected and unsupervised by his parents who should have been able to come get him when there was a problem. Regardless what happened, the fact he was unsupervised makes him instantly wrong, he should have left without incident.
If I was a customer and I saw a unsupervised child arguing or causing a scene, I would have asked the store to eject him and/or call the police. Two wrongs don't make a right. Children don't have the right to 'argue', that is what parental supervision is for.
His case would have been stronger if the employee was forced to admit 'he left without incident'.
This struck me as very odd. Is a kid not allowed to stand up for himself when his parents are not there? Are you advocating that he should just shut up and let someone else walk all over him? The employee clearly showed no respect to the kid in how he dealt with him. Why must the kid aquiesce to such rudeness? Yes, I understand that in many cases when a kid argues with an adult, many times it may be the kid in the wrong. But from the OP's account of the situation (and his reasonable temperament in the re-telling of the incident as objectively as he can), this is clearly not the case. I really don't understand why you are advocating that he is wrong to act as he did when he is the one who is the victim here. To me, this is almost like telling a rape victim that he/she is wrong for dressing too provocatively (well, not to that degree, but you get my meaning).
Let me ask you, did you ever have a bad experience with a kid in your place of work? It just seems like there is some foundation for your strong conviction.
nkeslch wrote:Children don't have the right to 'argue', that is what parental supervision is for.
Again, this is simply untrue. A minor whose rights (which they do indeed have) are being violated certainly may "argue".
See my post above... again, as a former teacher, the idea that a minor is not allowed to argue with an adult without their parent/guardian present is... well, a bit shocking, and definitely not true! At least, not in the US or UK, or most other developed countries I would imagine.
As a former teacher too, If you are unsupervised and have an issue, if the parents are not there, the only thing that can be done is have the kids taken in to custody and the parents called. A store should not 'argue' with children, especially unsupervised ones. Staff should say 'where is your parent, ok, I am calling security/police, leave immediately.' The less interaction a merchant has with unsupervised children, the better as it puts them at risk.
Kids lie and are prone to violence, it is dangerous for adults to interact with angry children who are unsupervised for an array of reasons.
Schools are different as while in the school, the professional staff are trained and legally allowed to supervise the kids. In public, there is no expectation that is the case and when on private property, what 'rights' does the child think he has? Right to loiter? right to play his game? Right to hang out for 4 more hours? None. Asked to leave for any reason, you leave. If you argue, or cause an issue, it is dangerous to interact with the kid because they are unpredictable.
The guy asking him to leave may seem unfair, but he didn't infringe on any rights and while he may have been rude or a bad salesman, arguing with him, refusing to leave until police we called and pointing out he is an unsupervised minor doesn't make it better.
Complaining to the store owner hasn't addressed the key issues and that is the lack of parental involvement or taking responsibilities for his own situation and trying to reach an agreement where the store will accept custody of him for long periods of time and have a way to contact parents if needed.
And we do have FLGS, and we have issues with parents 'assuming' there are adults around so someone is 'bound' to watch their kid. That is not the case, and when people leave and the kid is left behind, it becomes an issue. Adults Loitering and Children loitering are two different situations for stores and need to be addressed in different ways as there are some serious liability issues with loitering children which don't exist for adults.
@nkelsch, wow. Although I can relate your opinion of 'limited rights' to minors, no exceptions. Your view is very common back in China during the 50's and is how my dad grew up by. But I never expected an American, teacher no less, to have such a view in today's society.
I can see the points you are making, sales guy did not infringe on his rights; kid should not be 'angry'; bad salesman but not in the wrong of kicking out minors.
But if you look past the minor issue. The OP seem to be a well mannered, respectful person that can be reasoned with, least based on his presentation on this thread. He presentated a case on this forum that 'He was discriminated out of his long term hobby store by a new employee for not buying anything during that particular visit, what should I do?' I think at the very least we as a community we can hear out his complants and give constructive thoughts. Not to discriminate everthing OP presented just because of his age.
The OP raised an issue I do have with GW retail stores, and that is who do they really cater to? GW's retail prices have shun away a lot of +25yr old who knows the value of money. Their reduction of tables/battle bunkers, drove away the 'verteran' who money to burn. and are now restricing padded kids from enjoying 40K from their stores. Verterns knows the GW stores back in the day as 'Hobby Centers'. People do loiter for days and play their games. Today's 'Retail Store' model, do not have good table, very few tables, no free paint to paint models, no discounts. drives long term customer away. So who is the real target audience for retain stores?
As a former teacher too, If you are unsupervised and have an issue, if the parents are not there, the only thing that can be done is have the kids taken in to custody and the parents called.
What a load of old tosh. That might be the case in the US - in which case, thank goodness I don't live there - but is certainly not the case in the UK. Altho I wonder if your response says more about your own peculiar reality, rather than the US in general.
Bullockist wrote: I've missed the last 3 pages or so but has anyone apologised to the OP , which they should considering the amount of unwarranted crap that was thrown his way?
This being the Internet, their lack of participation is probably as much as you'll get from most posters.
I just hope those folks don't act like that in real life, ESPECIALLY at gaming stores. I've had enough with the angry nerd stereotypes, which sadly perpetuate because of angry nerds like the ones in this thread.
Hivefleet- It is not the case in the US, either... or really any developed country that I can think of.
(I was hesitant about replying because I don't want to beat a dead horse / pile on here... but that view is not the one that most US residents have, or at least that I have come into contact with. And it is not the case under the law or what happens in reality, either)
Bullockist wrote: I've missed the last 3 pages or so but has anyone apologised to the OP , which they should considering the amount of unwarranted crap that was thrown his way?
This being the Internet, their lack of participation is probably as much as you'll get from most posters.
I just hope those folks don't act like that in real life, ESPECIALLY at gaming stores. I've had enough with the angry nerd stereotypes, which sadly perpetuate because of angry nerds like the ones in this thread.
As a former teacher too, If you are unsupervised and have an issue, if the parents are not there, the only thing that can be done is have the kids taken in to custody and the parents called.
What a load of old tosh. That might be the case in the US - in which case, thank goodness I don't live there - but is certainly not the case in the UK. Altho I wonder if your response says more about your own reality, rather than the US in general.
If you have a miscreant causing issues at your store, you're free to call the cops on them/call their parents. Is this the normal way of things? No it's not, but it's an option.
RiTides wrote: Hivefleet- It is not the case in the US, either... or really any developed country that I can think of.
(I was hesitant about replying because I don't want to beat a dead horse / pile on here... but that view is not the one that most US residents have, or at least that I have come into contact with. And it is not the case under the law or what happens in reality, either)
It's a view that actually does get picked up by shops where they have issues of parents dumping their kids there as a free childcare service. It is not common but it does happen.
As a former teacher too, If you are unsupervised and have an issue, if the parents are not there, the only thing that can be done is have the kids taken in to custody and the parents called.
What a load of old tosh. That might be the case in the US - in which case, thank goodness I don't live there - but is certainly not the case in the UK. Altho I wonder if your response says more about your own reality, rather than the US in general.
.
its not the case in the US. Just sounds like someone is jaded over something that may have happened to them personally as a teen or with a teen.
RiTides wrote: That is not the situation in the text you quoted (or the situation if this thread, either) Alf.
Actually I disagree, RiTides. Nkelsch brought up the point that if there is a minor present without a parent/guardian(I'm elaborating on what he posted a bit but the gist is there) and the minor causes an issue, then the shop generally has to deal with the parent/guardian. A lot of police departments and the like will respond to situations like that kind of heavy handed and press charges even if it is for something as simple as a first time offense shoplifting or something of that nature.
GW actively encourage 12 year olds in their store, without parental supervision. Obviously they won't put up with abuse of this privilege. But leave all the old tosh about the law and abuse of minors and leaving them in police custody, because it tells us only about what's inside your head and is nothing to do with reality.
Alex, good luck with that letter, hopefully it will be more coherent and better argued than some of the 'input' on here.
I suggest, and I guess you';ll know, that your argument is more about bad manners towards a customer, than it is about human rights. Put plenty in about how you like the shop, which is why you've spent so much money there over the years. Don't ask for the head on a platter . But I reckon such behaviour should earn the staff member a formal warning.
RiTides wrote: That is not the situation in the text you quoted (or the situation if this thread, either) Alf.
No, but from the point of view of the "jerkwad" store employee that kicked the OP out of the store, if the OP was getting angry and responding in a rude manner, the store has the option of calling the cops on someone that is loitering/causing a disturbance if parents are unable to come pick up said child. nkelsch's comment might have been a little offbase, and Hivefleet might have been taking it as a bit of, "wow America is totes different and not in a good way." sort of angle. My comment was that it's not the common way to handle things here in the states, but it is an option.
As it stands with the current discussion of the thread, it's pretty in line with that. The problem is and I must have missed it, but here is how I have been viewing the thread.
1) OP tells story about getting kicked out because he didn't have his rulebook, and was "loitering" in the fashion that he was not buying anything while making an army. 2) Thread gets "hostile" as people say the store was in the right for kicking the OP out because a store exists to make money. People get on the OP's side because store employee sounds like a right jerk. 3) Thread gets locked for a bit because people can't back off the pedal and it gets too flame-baitey 4) OP says manager calls him in to file a complaint against the employee, OP also mentions that he did get angry at the store employee for how he was acting (2 wrongs don't make a right, etc...) 5) People offer to proofread the complaint, nkelsch comes in and says the store is in the right for throwing the OP out because he was causing a disturbance, and kids have no rights?
RiTides wrote: That is not the situation in the text you quoted (or the situation if this thread, either) Alf.
Actually I disagree, RiTides. Nkelsch brought up the point that if there is a minor present without a parent/guardian(I'm elaborating on what he posted a bit but the gist is there) and the minor causes an issue, then the shop generally has to deal with the parent/guardian. A lot of police departments and the like will respond to situations like that kind of heavy handed and press charges even if it is for something as simple as a first time offense shoplifting or something of that nature.
Shoplifting?
The word "miscreant" was used above (not by you, but still)...?
I feel like we're looking at two different scenarios here, but it must be just different interpretations since we all have the same set of information. The OP wasn't breaking the law and wasn't a "miscreant". The police being called because a 14 year old is in your store who has been coming there and causing no problems for 2 years isn't all that convincing. I'd like to see the PD that would take that seriously and not be annoyed as heck if they actually came out and found the situation as described above.
To repeat:
There was no shoplifting. There was no "miscreant" behavior. The OP came in to buy a product which was out of stock and stayed to play a game, as he has for years. The only change was in the staff member, and their extreme reaction, which thankfully the manager is taking seriously and is asking the OP for a written complaint regarding.
Again, I feel like we're looking at two different scenarios, so I'll agree to disagree... but I'm thankful that the manager is taking the situation seriously, and dealing with it appropriately by getting a written complaint and investigating the matter (and presumably at some point deciding to take action against the employee, or not).
But I really think you guys should be careful with terms like "miscreant", and immediately jumping to crimes like shoplifting when the situation is simply that of being in a gaming store that they regularly attended. Minors have most of the same rights as adults, and in some cases even more. They are not crimes waiting to happen... I just don't see where some of you are coming from with the assumptions that are being made here.
RiTides wrote: But I really think you guys should be careful with terms like "miscreant", and immediately jumping to crimes like shoplifting when the situation is simply that of being in a gaming store that they regularly attended. Minors have most of the same rights as adults, and in some cases even more. They are not crimes waiting to happen... I just don't see where some of you are coming from with the assumptions that are being made here.
I used miscreant to describe someone that has behaved badly. Which if the OP was getting angry at the store employee, then yes he would be a miscreant because getting angry at someone in public is not good behavior. I've done it, I'm sure we've all done it at some point or another.
The manager is willing to listen to the OP, gak is getting resolved, I was simply making a point to counter Hivefleet's statement about people in the US calling the cops. I said "If you have a miscreant causing issues at your store, you're free to call the cops. Is this the normal way of things? No, but it is an option." I never called the OP a miscreant in that post and was trying to say, "hey hivefleet, not everyone in the US reacts in a manner that nkelsch is describing.
Edit: OP's words about getting angry: "In reply to what I meant when I said I got agitated, I meant I began to argue my point rather then just getting up and leaving straight away. Maybe I should of just left without question, as some of you are saying, but I strongly believed what he was doing was unfair. If what he was doing was within his rights to do or not, I think if something is unfair to anyone, it should be questioned, that's how I was brought up. I understand this would probably not make me a good house or car salesmen because of how they usually 'sugar-coat' the truth behind there wears. "
RiTides wrote: That is not the situation in the text you quoted (or the situation if this thread, either) Alf.
Actually I disagree, RiTides. Nkelsch brought up the point that if there is a minor present without a parent/guardian(I'm elaborating on what he posted a bit but the gist is there) and the minor causes an issue, then the shop generally has to deal with the parent/guardian. A lot of police departments and the like will respond to situations like that kind of heavy handed and press charges even if it is for something as simple as a first time offense shoplifting or something of that nature.
Shoplifting?
The word "miscreant" was used above (not by you, but still)...?
I feel like we're looking at two different scenarios here, but it must be just different interpretations since we all have the same set of information. The OP wasn't breaking the law and wasn't a "miscreant". The police being called because a 14 year old is in your store who has been coming there and causing no problems for 2 years isn't all that convincing. I'd like to see the PD that would take that seriously and not be annoyed as heck if they actually came out and found the situation as described above.
To repeat:
There was no shoplifting. There was no "miscreant" behavior. The OP came in to buy a product which was out of stock and stayed to play a game, as he has for years. The only change was in the staff member, and their extreme reaction, which thankfully the manager is taking seriously and is asking the OP for a written complaint regarding.
Again, I feel like we're looking at two different scenarios, so I'll agree to disagree... but I'm thankful that the manager is taking the situation seriously, and dealing with it appropriately by getting a written complaint and investigating the matter (and presumably at some point deciding to take action against the employee, or not).
But I really think you guys should be careful with terms like "miscreant", and immediately jumping to crimes like shoplifting when the situation is simply that of being in a gaming store that they regularly attended. Minors have most of the same rights as adults, and in some cases even more. They are not crimes waiting to happen... I just don't see where some of you are coming from with the assumptions that are being made here.
I used shoplifting as an example because it was not uncommon to have minors come in with the express intent of lifting something to 'be cool' at a local shop here in Raleigh. It was stupid and it costs the shop money, but the police would not really do anything as it was nothing they considered to be valuable--and the kids knew that.
You are completely right that yes, it is a good thing that the actual manager is taking a hard look at this incident.
The problem is that people seem so focused on applying Nkelsch's statements to this incident while ignoring that what happened to Alex might not always be the case and that in some instances it would entirely be warranted to ask a minor to leave. There are a lot of blanket statements being made on both sides and it is something that I am trying to avoid making personally.
The other problem is that many of the people seem to be of the opinion that what someone posts on the Internet is always the truth. It's not--and people should be well aware of that by now. It would not have been the first time nor will it likely be the last that people have tried to use Dakka to badmouth their local store when they feel that they were "mistreated".
I will apologize for doubting Alex at this point, as if the circumstances were bad enough that the manager had other customers complaining to him that the employee's treatment of Alex was bad--then they lend credence to Alex's side of the story.
I just hope those folks don't act like that in real life, ESPECIALLY at gaming stores. I've had enough with the angry nerd stereotypes, which sadly perpetuate because of angry nerds like the ones in this thread.
Pot calling the kettle black.
LOL! You're funny, at least I hope you are joking. But seriously now, do you act this "charming" in real life?
Kanluwen wrote: I will apologize for doubting Alex at this point, as if the circumstances were bad enough that the manager had other customers complaining to him that the employee's treatment of Alex was bad--then they lend credence to Alex's side of the story.
I appreciate that Kan, and that's also where I'm coming from- if the incident generated complaints from other (presumably somewhat unbiased) observers, it means something likely was out of order.
I also agree that things that get posted on the internet are often not totally factual, can be one-sided, etc... but the circumstances here seem to point to mistreatment of the OP. My own post was reacting to some statements in here that have painted minors with a very large brush, which I don't think is fair at all... any moreso than it is fair to make general statements about any large category of people.
As the manager is investigating it, hopefully there will be a resolution to the matter after the OP submits the complaint in writing (as requested by the manager).
I just hope those folks don't act like that in real life, ESPECIALLY at gaming stores. I've had enough with the angry nerd stereotypes, which sadly perpetuate because of angry nerds like the ones in this thread.
Pot calling the kettle black.
LOL! You're funny, at least I hope you are joking. But seriously now, do you act this "charming" in real life?
Actually, I've played Borderlands on Xbox live with Kan, and he's a really nice guy. We've been on opposing views on a lot of things, and I've gritted my teeth at some of his comments before, but it doesn't change the fact that he's a good guy. Also, I believe he's one of (maybe the only) to apologize to Alex over this thread. Speaks highly of him. I realize that was around the time you posted, so it may have been missed, so this isn't an attack: just saying that he is a nice guy.
Alex, I saw you sent out letters to anyone who offered, but I didn't get one. If you'd like another set of eyes, I'm currently bored at work and I'll take a peek at it.
I just hope those folks don't act like that in real life, ESPECIALLY at gaming stores. I've had enough with the angry nerd stereotypes, which sadly perpetuate because of angry nerds like the ones in this thread.
Pot calling the kettle black.
LOL! You're funny, at least I hope you are joking. But seriously now, do you act this "charming" in real life?
Actually, I've played Borderlands on Xbox live with Kan, and he's a really nice guy. We've been on opposing views on a lot of things, and I've gritted my teeth at some of his comments before, but it doesn't change the fact that he's a good guy. Also, I believe he's one of (maybe the only) to apologize to Alex over this thread. Speaks highly of him. I realize that was around the time you posted, so it may have been missed, so this isn't an attack: just saying that he is a nice guy.
Holy cow, that's a stunning endorsement, considering Xbox Live brings out the worst in humanity lol. I didn't know it was possible for peopel to be nice on there.
I will apologize for doubting Alex at this point, as if the circumstances were bad enough that the manager had other customers complaining to him that the employee's treatment of Alex was bad--then they lend credence to Alex's side of the story.
Nice to see that response Kan , kinda made my day. The internets grows up all in one post.
Wow this thread has been an... interesting... Read.
Some people have very strange opinions on what children are like.
Just offering my opinion now:
My local GW (Swindon, if anybody was wondering) is about an hour and a half bus journey away from me.
In January they decided to stop open gaming / hobbying in store. Instead you can call and "book" some staff help with things (modelling, painting, playtesting etc).
They still do events and such like.
But even they allow me (a 15 year old by the way) to spend 4/5 hours in store chatting and browsing, even though I'm not necessarily going to buy anything, because I've been a patron for years, I do in fact spend money in there quite often, and because they aren't horrible people (for want of a better word).
So I would just like to commend Alex on his general manner of handling the whole situation. He managed to keep his cool while thoroughly ticked off in a heat-of-the-moment situation. He has responded in a level-headed and articulate manner to some rather aggressive people on this thread, and has taken a mature course of action in the circumstances presented.
I wish Alex the best of luck, and I wish *some* of the posters of Dakka would learn to treat children with at least some manner of respect.
-TG
For full time work (as in what you expect of a working adult )16. However, 14 and 15 can work times from 7am to like 6pm and nothing outside that, no heavy lifting, no inappropriate content in the job and crucially, minimum wage doesn't apply.
So instead of hanging around in local shops, these kids could be working? Hmmmm .
I'd add "or couldn't they be playing sports" but then I realized that a lot of the kids that would be inclined to hang out in an LGS of hours on end during their summer may not be interested in participating in sports.
I know when I was 14-18, my summers were full with working and sports, that's for sure.
I'd just like to say to those people who thinks that kids should be working....do you know how hard it is to get a job in this economy? There are many, many graduates who can't even get jobs - people who are much more flexible in what they can do and most of them more mature and with work experience already. How can minors compete with them? So for those of you saying that 14yo kids should just go and get a job, I think you need to take a long, hard look at reality. Time's have changed and the job market currently is really tough, especially for entry-level candidates with no experience.
jy2 wrote: I'd just like to say to those people who thinks that kids should be working....do you know how hard it is to get a job in this economy? There are many, many graduates who can't even get jobs - people who are much more flexible in what they can do and most of them more mature and with work experience already. How can minors compete with them? So for those of you saying that 14yo kids should just go and get a job, I think you need to take a long, hard look at reality. Time's have changed and the job market currently is really tough, especially for entry-level candidates with no experience.
Oh horsegak. It's incredibly easy to find menial, unskilled labor at restaurants and In retail. Those graduates that "can't get jobs" can't get jobs in their fields of study and many are unwilling to take "lesser work." When I was laid off from my teaching job, it took me 10 days to find part time work at FedEx. The jobs that a 14-16 year would be taking are precisely those "lesser jobs" intended as part time work.
cincydooley wrote: So instead of hanging around in local shops, these kids could be working? Hmmmm .
I'd add "or couldn't they be playing sports" but then I realized that a lot of the kids that would be inclined to hang out in an LGS of hours on end during their summer may not be interested in participating in sports.
I know when I was 14-18, my summers were full with working and sports, that's for sure.
So I take it as an adult of legal employment age you never ever hang out at the game shop and play games or anything since you could be working instead?
jy2 wrote: I'd just like to say to those people who thinks that kids should be working....do you know how hard it is to get a job in this economy? There are many, many graduates who can't even get jobs - people who are much more flexible in what they can do and most of them more mature and with work experience already. How can minors compete with them? So for those of you saying that 14yo kids should just go and get a job, I think you need to take a long, hard look at reality. Time's have changed and the job market currently is really tough, especially for entry-level candidates with no experience.
Actually, under-16s are better for employers in the fields they can get jobs, that is, paper runs, shop assistant, menial duties as they arn't likely to leave at the drop of the hat, and the minimum wage doesn't apply. Its literally just an agreement on wage, whether that's 1p or £1m.
jy2 wrote: I'd just like to say to those people who thinks that kids should be working....do you know how hard it is to get a job in this economy? There are many, many graduates who can't even get jobs - people who are much more flexible in what they can do and most of them more mature and with work experience already. How can minors compete with them? So for those of you saying that 14yo kids should just go and get a job, I think you need to take a long, hard look at reality. Time's have changed and the job market currently is really tough, especially for entry-level candidates with no experience.
Actually, under-16s are better for employers in the fields they can get jobs, that is, paper runs, shop assistant, menial duties as they arn't likely to leave at the drop of the hat, and they're easier to exploit .
jy2 wrote: I'd just like to say to those people who thinks that kids should be working....do you know how hard it is to get a job in this economy? There are many, many graduates who can't even get jobs - people who are much more flexible in what they can do and most of them more mature and with work experience already. How can minors compete with them? So for those of you saying that 14yo kids should just go and get a job, I think you need to take a long, hard look at reality. Time's have changed and the job market currently is really tough, especially for entry-level candidates with no experience.
Oh horsegak. It's incredibly easy to find menial, unskilled labor at restaurants and In retail. Those graduates that "can't get jobs" can't get jobs in their fields of study and many are unwilling to take "lesser work." When I was laid off from my teaching job, it took me 10 days to find part time work at FedEx. The jobs that a 14-16 year would be taking are precisely those "lesser jobs" intended as part time work.
Give. Me. A. Break.
Maybe in America. The UK has enormous youth unemployment for a reason.
I'd put it the other way round - if a kid is old enough to be working at 14 it is old enough to earn his/her own money and shouldn't be treated much differently from an adult customer in a store (especially a toy/hobby store).
So, frankly, I think the question whether he is a juvenile 'loiterer' or an adult 'loiterer' should be irrelevant. At 14 someone shouldn't have to be supervised by their parents (or other adult) 24/7 - actually I would be very much afraid for a 14-year-old's ability to function in society later on if he actually requires to have an adult constantly looking over his shoulder...
MeanGreenStompa wrote: And just what the feth does his employment status have to do with whether or not this customer received poor customer service?
Nothing at all? Never said it did. I just noticed there were a lot of younger folks participating in this thread that dont seem to be working during the summer.
@AduroT - well, simply, no I don't. Any time I spend at the LGS is done either after 6pm (after work) or on Saturday. I have to admit I don't typically hang out there for more than 3-4 hour though, which is long enough to grab a game or two. We do occasionally go on work holidays as well.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: And just what the feth does his employment status have to do with whether or not this customer received poor customer service?
Seriously, this. Give the employment discussion a rest, guys... it is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand, and is pure speculation / assumption.
The issue is how the person was treated in a gaming shop... their employment or lack thereof has absolutely nothing to do with it!
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Well, things have moved along a bit. I went into the store this weekend thinking I would simply let it go and never see him again, but then the Store manager asked me for a written letter of complaint. I said I didn't really want to take it that far, given I am unlikely to see him again. He then said that he would like a letter from me because some other people have complained FOR me and he wanted to hear the story from me. I was a little surprised to be honest, I never thought anyone would go so far to write in and complain to the manager about the substitute for me. But I've decided that if some other people took my side, who although he didn't say there names, then I should at least give an account of what happened.
I think I will keep the letter brief and simply explain circumstances without bias (So without adjectives it seems ) so he can get the full picture. Would anyone be up for reviewing my letter when I finish it? I would like someone to point out grammatical errors Word may miss and say if I sound demanding or 'Entitled' which I wouldn't want.
Thanks.
Edit: Sorry I'm late, I was waiting on a PM notification from the Mod, never thought to actually check the Thread (Doh!).
I'm actually terribly saddened by this. it reminds me of the scene in Waiting where a customer gives the waiter a $1 tip. The waiter gives the $1 back to him and then the customer goes and complains to the manager demending free this and free that.
Note that the manager sought him out and asked for a letter, as he is properly looking into the matter based on complaints from other customers to him about the incident. I don't know how you can see any connection to the scenario you just described...
Bullockist wrote: I've missed the last 3 pages or so but has anyone apologised to the OP , which they should considering the amount of unwarranted crap that was thrown his way?
Why? We still have no evidence he acted appropriately, even he admitted he got 'angry', and even if you are 'wronged' making a scene or escalating a fight instantly justifies your ejection. Leaving calmly and doing as your told and writing a letter would have been more appropriate.
And being an unsupervised minor magnifies everything as you really have no rights or expectation of rights. Even if something is done unfairly, reacting poorly dismisses everything. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Where are the parents in all of this? REGARDLESS of how the incident turned out with the one employee, there does seem that a responsible parent would use this incident to have a talk with the manager in regards to 'my child will be under your supervision for possibly 6-8 hours a day multiple times in the summer, Please call me if there is an issue with his behavior or a problem involving him and I will come down and see you about it.' I was in my local GW this weekend, and pretty much every kid who was 'left alone' had an agreement with the manager, phone number for parent and a rough idea when the child would be claimed. You would be surprised how 'common' it is for people to do something as simple as ask permission to leave your kid there and give them contact info.
What Nkelsch said but TIMES TEN.
Remember what the immortal Buddha said: never trust anyone under 70.
Except what the normal manager himself said! Along with other customers. See my post above. This information is in the very text you quoted in your first post
Note that the manager sought him out and asked for a letter, as he is properly looking into the matter based on complaints from other customers to him about the incident. I don't know how you can see any connection to the scenario you just described...
Hard working employee screwed by someone who spends minimal money but complains a lot...yep no relationship whatsoever...
On the positive GW pay is crap so its not a big loss for the employee. Now he can concentrate on schooling so he doesn't ever have to work at such again.
Retail sucks. I know.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RiTides wrote: Except what the normal manager himself said! Along with other customers. See my post above. This information is in the very text you quoted in your first post
other 14 years olds? The manager is just CYAing at this point because some absentee parent complained.
Exactly... at this point many of these comments are discrimination, pure and simple.
I give major props to Kanluwen, who apologized when it became clear that there is something to the OP's complaint. However, other comments are still simply reacting out of some general, stereotypical bias against young people that is disconnected from the facts of this situation.
If you think kids should get a job "in general", that's fine... and I certainly had a job when I was 14. But it really is, again, completely not applicable to whether or not a game store / retail employee acted appropriately towards a customer or not.
So... yeah, hopefully we can get back to talking about that and off of whatever this tangent is that we've been stuck on.
That posting irrelevant or generalised nonsense isn't really conducive to letting a topic stay active.
Then you kill the internet.
I've found whenever these threads start, everyone is gung ho. Then you hear the other side and its all
I've not heard the other side so cannot suspend disbelief.
Frankly why is the OP being allowed to hang out in a store for hours anyway, and then complain when he can't? Its not a baby sitting service. Its a store that sells 1/100 what a good McDonalds does. You have no rights to be there. Complaining is just complaining.
He's not complaining about being thrown out, as much as he's complaining about the employee being an ass to him specifically, ie, bullying. That's my interpretation at least. The employee didn't chuck other people.
bully
verb
gerund or present participle: bullying
1.
use superior strength or influence to intimidate (someone), typically to force him or her to do what one wants.
But as we've descended into semantics at this point, I'm going to stop posting in this thread again for a bit until there is a real update.
I'm just glad that the manager saw the need to treat this with the same significance he would a complaint by any customer, and investigate it before deciding what action to take regarding the employee (or none). Hopefully it's resolved amicably for all sides, but if the facts are as the OP has laid out I expect he'll at least get an apology from the employee in question for his behavior.
Deadshot wrote: He's not complaining about being thrown out, as much as he's complaining about the employee being an ass to him specifically, ie, bullying. That's my interpretation at least. The employee didn't chuck other people.
No.
Saying "buy something or get out your little germ factory" is not bullying. Thats the policy of pretty much every going concern on the planet.
Unless he specifically called the kid a name or committed assault then I don't see the issue. The kid wasn't a customer at that point, just a loiterer. At that age I was treated far worse by employees of wherever I was at. I was told to "get the out" of many a place. So?
bully verb gerund or present participle: bullying 1. use superior strength or influence to intimidate (someone), typically to force him or her to do what one wants.
But as we've descended into semantics at this point, I'm going to stop posting in this thread again for a bit until there is a real update.
I'm just glad that the manager saw the need to treat this with the same significance he would a complaint by any customer, and investigate it before deciding what action to take regarding the employee (or none). Hopefully it's resolved amicably for all sides, but if the facts are as the OP has laid out I expect he'll at least get an apology from the employee in question for his behavior.
Huh, the definition has change somewhat since I was in college... We were taught that it is the repeated targeted actions that are bullying.
It sounds to me like the OP was probably unfairly treated by the sub-manager, and that the full time manager is in fact looking to take action against him, which he probably wouldn't do unless there was a history of bad acts.
With that being said, I still think these teens that have time over the summer to hang out in a business for 5-7 hours should get jobs or get involved with a sport or move their hang out spot to a non-business. But that's just me.
One can think in this instance the kid was inappropriately treated while maintaining he should find a better place to spend his non-school time over the summer.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Additionally, I really want to touch the "bullying" comment, but I won't. Suffice it to say that I think the phrase is faaaaaaar overused today.
cincydooley wrote: It sounds to me like the OP was probably unfairly treated by the sub-manager, and that the full time manager is in fact looking to take action against him, which he probably wouldn't do unless there was a history of bad acts.
Just wanted to post that I greatly appreciate your saying this! I also can agree in principle with some of your other points in a sense, I just thought they were getting a bit overstated here... when the OP has been in some ways the opposite of the broad characterizations of young people that have been posted in this thread (or simply unrelated to them).
Deadshot wrote: He's not complaining about being thrown out, as much as he's complaining about the employee being an ass to him specifically, ie, bullying. That's my interpretation at least. The employee didn't chuck other people.
No.
Saying "buy something or get out your little germ factory" is not bullying. Thats the policy of pretty much every going concern on the planet.
Unless he specifically called the kid a name or committed assault then I don't see the issue. The kid wasn't a customer at that point, just a loiterer. At that age I was treated far worse by employees of wherever I was at. I was told to "get the out" of many a place. So?
So why not say that to everyone? 24/7? Literally a case of buy something, then leave. Not only that, he was buying, just they didn't have it in stock.
He specifically picked out the OP as the recipient of a negative comment, hence, bullying.
Deadshot wrote: He's not complaining about being thrown out, as much as he's complaining about the employee being an ass to him specifically, ie, bullying. That's my interpretation at least. The employee didn't chuck other people.
No.
Saying "buy something or get out your little germ factory" is not bullying. Thats the policy of pretty much every going concern on the planet.
Unless he specifically called the kid a name or committed assault then I don't see the issue. The kid wasn't a customer at that point, just a loiterer. At that age I was treated far worse by employees of wherever I was at. I was told to "get the out" of many a place. So?
So becouse you were treated like gak as a kid, we should continue the cycle and still treat kids like less then a person, got it.
Deadshot wrote: He's not complaining about being thrown out, as much as he's complaining about the employee being an ass to him specifically, ie, bullying. That's my interpretation at least. The employee didn't chuck other people.
No.
Saying "buy something or get out your little germ factory" is not bullying. Thats the policy of pretty much every going concern on the planet.
Unless he specifically called the kid a name or committed assault then I don't see the issue. The kid wasn't a customer at that point, just a loiterer. At that age I was treated far worse by employees of wherever I was at. I was told to "get the out" of many a place. So?
So becouse you were treated like gak as a kid, we should continue the cycle and still treat kids like less then a person, got it.
Well...yea.
And the OP didn't actually try to order anything.
Did the employee probably have a bad commentary. Probably.
And?
Deadshot wrote: He's not complaining about being thrown out, as much as he's complaining about the employee being an ass to him specifically, ie, bullying. That's my interpretation at least. The employee didn't chuck other people.
No.
Saying "buy something or get out your little germ factory" is not bullying. Thats the policy of pretty much every going concern on the planet.
Unless he specifically called the kid a name or committed assault then I don't see the issue. The kid wasn't a customer at that point, just a loiterer. At that age I was treated far worse by employees of wherever I was at. I was told to "get the out" of many a place. So?
So becouse you were treated like gak as a kid, we should continue the cycle and still treat kids like less then a person, got it.
And the OP didn't actually try to order anything
Yes he did! He went in with the specific intent of purchasing a large figure case! It was out of stock.
Deadshot wrote: He's not complaining about being thrown out, as much as he's complaining about the employee being an ass to him specifically, ie, bullying. That's my interpretation at least. The employee didn't chuck other people.
No.
Saying "buy something or get out your little germ factory" is not bullying. Thats the policy of pretty much every going concern on the planet.
Unless he specifically called the kid a name or committed assault then I don't see the issue. The kid wasn't a customer at that point, just a loiterer. At that age I was treated far worse by employees of wherever I was at. I was told to "get the out" of many a place. So?
So becouse you were treated like gak as a kid, we should continue the cycle and still treat kids like less then a person, got it.
And the OP didn't actually try to order anything
Yes he did! He went in with the specific intent of purchasing a large figure case! It was out of stock.
It's been a while since I read the OP, but I'm pretty sure as part of the story he was asked if he'd like to order said case and then declined.
Deadshot wrote: He's not complaining about being thrown out, as much as he's complaining about the employee being an ass to him specifically, ie, bullying. That's my interpretation at least. The employee didn't chuck other people.
No.
Saying "buy something or get out your little germ factory" is not bullying. Thats the policy of pretty much every going concern on the planet.
Unless he specifically called the kid a name or committed assault then I don't see the issue. The kid wasn't a customer at that point, just a loiterer. At that age I was treated far worse by employees of wherever I was at. I was told to "get the out" of many a place. So?
So becouse you were treated like gak as a kid, we should continue the cycle and still treat kids like less then a person, got it.
Well...yea.
And the OP didn't actually try to order anything.
Did the employee probably have a bad commentary. Probably.
And?
Your coming across very bitter. A 14 year old likely is unable to order due to a lack of a line of credit (usually ordering they need a CC of some type). He has my benefit of the doubt with that one.
Deadshot wrote: He's not complaining about being thrown out, as much as he's complaining about the employee being an ass to him specifically, ie, bullying. That's my interpretation at least. The employee didn't chuck other people.
No.
Saying "buy something or get out your little germ factory" is not bullying. Thats the policy of pretty much every going concern on the planet.
Unless he specifically called the kid a name or committed assault then I don't see the issue. The kid wasn't a customer at that point, just a loiterer. At that age I was treated far worse by employees of wherever I was at. I was told to "get the out" of many a place. So?
So becouse you were treated like gak as a kid, we should continue the cycle and still treat kids like less then a person, got it.
And the OP didn't actually try to order anything
Yes he did! He went in with the specific intent of purchasing a large figure case! It was out of stock.
It's been a while since I read the OP, but I'm pretty sure as part of the story he was asked if he'd like to order said case and then declined.
Actually, I believe he said his dad would order it later that day and the guy didn't offer a gift card to be purchased to use to order. So yes, the intent to order was there, and he even said so in one of his posts. The order/purchase just got delayed.
Frazzled wrote: Intent is irrelevant if it wasn't communicated. That was not stated.
All the employee knows is there's a kid sitting there, not buying anything, wasting his time, kind of like a homeless guy.
Yes, teens who frequently drop cash at a gaming store and also play at said store (as the store intends) are EXACTLY like homeless people. I think we should lock the thread because after Frazzled comment there is literally nothing more that can be said. Congratulations Frazzled you win the internets.
Frazzled wrote: Intent is irrelevant if it wasn't communicated. That was not stated.
All the employee knows is there's a kid sitting there, not buying anything, wasting his time, kind of like a homeless guy.
So the fact he had the money in his pocket ask about the case. All in his first post is not communicating, man I know you think kids should be treated like sub-human, but you should atleast read his post. All the employee knew was the kid wanted a product they don't have in stock, the kid decide not to buy right then, he sat down to make a army list to play a game (in a store that still has open gaming). We know the employee had complants form other store goers about how the kid was treated, and the boss would like the kid to write a letter about what happened.
Frazzled wrote: Intent is irrelevant if it wasn't communicated. That was not stated.
All the employee knows is there's a kid sitting there, not buying anything, wasting his time, kind of like a homeless guy.
So the fact he had the money in his pocket ask about the case. All in his first post is not communicating, man I know you think kids should be treated like sub-human, but you should atleast read his post. All the employee knew was the kid wanted a product they don't have in stock, the kid decide not to buy right then, he sat down to make a army list to play a game (in a store that still has open gaming). We know the employee had complants form other store goers about how the kid was treated, and the boss would like the kid to write a letter about what happened.
Lets assume your 100% correct. And? Unless he was insulting or physically assaulted the child, what exactly did the employee do wrong?
Frazzled wrote: Intent is irrelevant if it wasn't communicated. That was not stated.
All the employee knows is there's a kid sitting there, not buying anything, wasting his time, kind of like a homeless guy.
So the fact he had the money in his pocket ask about the case. All in his first post is not communicating, man I know you think kids should be treated like sub-human, but you should atleast read his post. All the employee knew was the kid wanted a product they don't have in stock, the kid decide not to buy right then, he sat down to make a army list to play a game (in a store that still has open gaming). We know the employee had complants form other store goers about how the kid was treated, and the boss would like the kid to write a letter about what happened.
Lets assume your 100% correct. And? Unless he was insulting or physically assaulted the child, what exactly did the employee do wrong?
He choose to pick on the kid, while other were in the store doing the same thing as the kid, playing or getting ready to play a game. What if did or didn't by is pointless in the face that.
Frazzled wrote: Intent is irrelevant if it wasn't communicated. That was not stated.
All the employee knows is there's a kid sitting there, not buying anything, wasting his time, kind of like a homeless guy.
So the fact he had the money in his pocket ask about the case. All in his first post is not communicating, man I know you think kids should be treated like sub-human, but you should atleast read his post. All the employee knew was the kid wanted a product they don't have in stock, the kid decide not to buy right then, he sat down to make a army list to play a game (in a store that still has open gaming). We know the employee had complants form other store goers about how the kid was treated, and the boss would like the kid to write a letter about what happened.
Lets assume your 100% correct. And? Unless he was insulting or physically assaulted the child, what exactly did the employee do wrong?
So 19 pages and you still do not know what he did wrong. How about I sum it up. Poor customer service. Frazzled no offense but are you arguing just to argue??
The employee must have done something wrong if the manager is getting letters from others in the store.
Wow........
Alex whe it is all said and done please let us know. Also I am not a good proof reader but I would like to see your letter if I may?
I'm really surprised this thread went on this long. All it sounds like to me is: a long-time GW consumer butts heads with GW's new store-management strategy. It seems reasonable that some of those who were accustomed to GW "Hobby Centers" might feel confused or slighted when those locations suddenly transform into GW "Storefronts." This might be especially shocking if you learn of this at the store in question.
I mean, I've only ever experienced the former. Every time I went into a GW store, every staff person and customer treated the building as a community hobby center. Some people were there for nearly the whole day. In fact, most times I showed up to buy something and leave, the staff practically stood in front of the door to try and convince me to "stay for a few hours and paint or play in ____ event going on right now." (Even when I was a youngster)
It's understandable that changing from this mode of operation to the standard GameStop, Nordstroms, etc etc model of "Get in, buy something, get out" might shock a few customers who may not be constantly up to date on GWs marketing policy. In any case, I'm glad that Alex seems to have gotten the situation sorted out to a certain extent, and I hope that GW becomes clearer about what exactly they want going on in their stores (they can't really have it both ways; traditional store front OR community hobby center).
What really surprises me the most though is how much pent-up bitterness there seems to be in this thread. There's a lot of "I was treated badly when I was young and no one cared so nobody should care now, and everything should continue to be bad for young people so they know what it felt like..." going on here. I'm kinda at a loss as to how it keeps coming up though since it seems mostly irrelevant to the situation (from my perspective anyway).
Xca|iber wrote: I'm really surprised this thread went on this long. All it sounds like to me is a long-time GW consumer butting heads with GW's new store-management strategy. It seems reasonable that there might be some stories like this where those accustomed to GW "Hobby Centers" might feel confused or slighted when those locations suddenly transform into GW "Storefronts."
I mean, I've only ever experienced the former. Every time I went into a GW store, every staff person and customer treated the building as a community hobby center. Some people were there for nearly the whole day. In fact, most times I showed up to buy something and leave, the staff practically stood in front of the door to try and convince me to "stay for a few hours and paint or play in ____ event going on right now." (Even when I was a youngster)
It's understandable that changing from this mode of operation to the standard GameStop, Nordstroms, etc etc model of "Get in, buy something, get out" might shock a few customers who may not be constantly up to date on GWs marketing policy. In any case, I'm glad that Alex seems to have gotten the situation sorted out to a certain extent, and I hope that GW becomes clearer about what exactly they want going on in their stores (they can't really have it both ways; traditional store front OR community hobby center).
What really surprises me the most though is how much pent-up bitterness there seems to be in this thread. There's a lot of "I was treated badly when I was young and no one cared so nobody should care now, and everything should continue to be bad for young people so they know what it felt like..." going on here. I'm kinda at a loss as to how it keeps coming up though since it seems mostly irrelevant to the situation (from my perspective anyway).
So you missed the part were this store still has open gaming, and poeple were already playing on some of the tables. Please read before posting. As everything you just posted has nothing to do with this, unless you belive the new GW strategy only effects this one kid.
Frazzled wrote: He didn't try to order anything so we have no clue.
Hmm, I am sure several people have said this before, and every time I have specifically mentioned that the employee never offered to order it in for me. He tried to sell me a new wraithknight instead for like 5 minutes trying to play the 'Hobby store rent isn't free' Card until a new customer came in. So I was going to wait for my dad to finish work and ask him to come in and order it for me (He works close to the store) using his GW account and credit card. So once again someone is making up their own story to fill in blanks that they seem to think I have missed.
And on the ''Lets assume your 100% correct. And? Unless he was insulting or physically assaulted the child, what exactly did the employee do wrong?'' idea I think you are totally missing the point. He didn't need to physically assault me or insult me to be in the wrong. What he did was he wasn't friendly, he wasn't helpful and he didn't encourage me to go to the store again or engage in the hobby. What he did may of been totally within his rights to do, I have said this, I don't know. But how he acted was actively sending loyal and potential customers out of the store with a bad impression, this alone could be a reason of concern for a manager. Its like if you ran a bar and you had many regulars, then you hire a barman who drives them out of the bar if they aren't buying anything, even if there friends are. This drives the entire group of regulars out of the bar into a different bar. The money you have lost from the continued patronage of a social group is far higher then any gain of kicking one person out, as word spreads that the environment isn't a friendly one. How can a hobby store which relies so heavily on walk in custom be accepting of any behaviour from staff that is anything but warm, friendly and inviting?
Alex. I am going into the store on Friday or Saturday to deliver my typed complaint letter (Due thanks to DeadShot, Azreal and Kanulwen)
Why are you making a deal out of it? Don't you have anything else to do?
I'm not saying you have to go out and work (well you should but thats an aside), but you were thrown out, big flip. Go somewhere else. Do something else. Life's too short to give a gak. After all (wait for it, here it comes!) back in my day, people would gripe for fifteen minutes and then do something else. I guess its the intranetz.
Frazzled wrote: He didn't try to order anything so we have no clue.
Hmm, I am sure several people have said this before, and every time I have specifically mentioned that the employee never offered to order it in for me. He tried to sell me a new wraithknight instead for like 5 minutes trying to play the 'Hobby store rent isn't free' Card until a new customer came in. So I was going to wait for my dad to finish work and ask him to come in and order it for me (He works close to the store) using his GW account and credit card. So once again someone is making up their own story to fill in blanks that they seem to think I have missed.
And on the ''Lets assume your 100% correct. And? Unless he was insulting or physically assaulted the child, what exactly did the employee do wrong?'' idea I think you are totally missing the point. He didn't need to physically assault me or insult me to be in the wrong. What he did was he wasn't friendly, he wasn't helpful and he didn't encourage me to go to the store again or engage in the hobby. What he did may of been totally within his rights to do, I have said this, I don't know. But how he acted was actively sending loyal and potential customers out of the store with a bad impression, this alone could be a reason of concern for a manager. Its like if you ran a bar and you had many regulars, then you hire a barman who drives them out of the bar if they aren't buying anything, even if there friends are. This drives the entire group of regulars out of the bar into a different bar. The money you have lost from the continued patronage of a social group is far higher then any gain of kicking one person out, as word spreads that the environment isn't a friendly one. How can a hobby store which relies so heavily on walk in custom be accepting of any behaviour from staff that is anything but warm, friendly and inviting?
Alex. I am going into the store on Friday or Saturday to deliver my typed complaint letter (Due thanks to DeadShot, Azreal and Kanulwen)
Ehh.. don't worry about Frazzed he all ready said he is what is wrong with the world. Eye for a eye and all that, unstead of his being treat like gak as a kid, and trying to be a better person then the adults before him. He feels he should keep speading the view kids are not people and treat them just as bad as he was.
Frazzled wrote: How is it poor customer service? You have to buy things to be a paying customer.
Again it seems to me you are arguing just to argue.....
You must have never worked retail.Lets assume Alex never bought anything from the store. A customer is anyone that enters your store. Specially if their intent is to buy. Whether or not they do doesn't matter. The point of customer service is to make anyone feel welcome. That way even if they do not buy today they may come back the next and buy, and tell their friends and family what a great experience they have had. This builds a relationship with your customer base insuring the customer keeps coming back and hopefully bring more business with him.
Now back to the point Alex spends his free cash their all the time. The manager of said store has built a relationship with him as a customer. Knowing he is a repeat customer, he wants to make sure he is taking care of. Hence asking for the letters. It is a proven fact it takes 10 times the energy/money/time/etc to get a new repeat customer as it does to keep one that already buys from you.
this will be my last post in this part of the discussion. I feel i have made my point. I will reply again when I feel i have anything else useful to add. Feel free to interpret that as me bowing out to avoid an argument over matters that are in my opinion mute at this point.
Why are you making a deal out of it? Don't you have anything else to do?
You are very silly.
He's posted a legitimate complaint - rather succinctly. Especially in comparison to you, who just keeps moaning about how hard your life was. Get a therapist and save us the time reading your repetitive griping.
Alex seems a decent kid who is not moaning and will move on. You, in contrast, remind me of an old song called CHild psychology
Why are you making a deal out of it? Don't you have anything else to do?
You are very silly.
He's posted a legitimate complaint - rather succinctly. Especially in comparison to you, who just keeps moaning about how hard your life was. Get a therapist and save us the time reading your repetitive griping.
Alex seems a decent kid who is not moaning and will move on. You, in contrast, remind me of an old song called CHild psychology
So now we're dealing in personal insults. Just like some treehuggging hippy flower child. You youngins need to get a job and stay the hell off my lawn. Where's my cane...
I just want to see what the other side has to say about the event.
Seriously, when you write the letter, meet with the manager. An in person discussion will likely yield a gift certificate or store credit.
Why are you making a deal out of it? Don't you have anything else to do?
I'm not saying you have to go out and work (well you should but thats an aside), but you were thrown out, big flip. Go somewhere else. Do something else. Life's too short to give a gak. After all (wait for it, here it comes!) back in my day, people would gripe for fifteen minutes and then do something else. I guess its the intranetz.
They didn't have internet when you were a kid, in fact I don't think they even had carrier pigeons back then.
Why are you making a deal out of it? Don't you have anything else to do?
I'm not saying you have to go out and work (well you should but thats an aside), but you were thrown out, big flip. Go somewhere else. Do something else. Life's too short to give a gak. After all (wait for it, here it comes!) back in my day, people would gripe for fifteen minutes and then do something else. I guess its the intranetz.
And why is it on the customer to go the extra mile to get what he wants? If the sales associate wanted the sale, it's on him, not the customer.
Bad customer service is bad customer service. Youth is the future of their business. Let's just cut them off at the knees, why don't we? The GW employee didn't do anything wrong legally. He is only guilty of short-sightedness and most likely having personal problems which led to him behaving like an idiot.
Could Personal insults (Even if obviously prompted or even deserved, however funny) be kept to a minimum please. I like this thread because it shows that for every depressing negative person on Dakka, there is a lot more Latent good will. I would prefer for people to focus on that rather then 'digressing'. Should we maybe lock the thread down until the weekend?
Why are you making a deal out of it? Don't you have anything else to do?
I'm not saying you have to go out and work (well you should but thats an aside), but you were thrown out, big flip. Go somewhere else. Do something else. Life's too short to give a gak. After all (wait for it, here it comes!) back in my day, people would gripe for fifteen minutes and then do something else. I guess its the intranetz.
They didn't have internet when you were a kid, in fact I don't think they even had carrier pigeons back then.
I remember when fire came out. Everyone said it wouldn't last but not me because I am a hep cat.
Why are you making a deal out of it? Don't you have anything else to do?
I'm not saying you have to go out and work (well you should but thats an aside), but you were thrown out, big flip. Go somewhere else. Do something else. Life's too short to give a gak. After all (wait for it, here it comes!) back in my day, people would gripe for fifteen minutes and then do something else. I guess its the intranetz.
And why is it on the customer to go the extra mile to get what he wants? If the sales associate wanted the sale, it's on him, not the customer.
Bad customer service is bad customer service. Youth is the future of their business. Let's just cut them off at the knees, why don't we? The GW employee didn't do anything wrong legally. He is only guilty of short-sightedness and most likely having personal problems which led to him behaving like an idiot.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Could Personal insults (Even if obviously prompted or even deserved, however funny) be kept to a minimum please. I like this thread because it shows that for every depressing negative person on Dakka, there is a lot more Latent good will. I would prefer for people to focus on that rather then 'digressing'. Should we maybe lock the thread down until the weekend?
Very fair request, let's all abide by it lads
Let us know how it goes after the weekend, Alex! Hopefully resolved amicably for all involved.
So you missed the part were this store still has open gaming, and poeple were already playing on some of the tables. Please read before posting. As everything you just posted has nothing to do with this, unless you belive the new GW strategy only effects this one kid.
Hey, calm down there.
I never said the store didn't still have open gaming. In fact, I think that kind of misunderstanding is the problem here. I would suspect that this "new" employee was trained to behave in the manner expected of a "storefront" clerk, not a hobby center staff member (as this appears to be the new GW policy). Unfortunately, as the store in question hasn't fully turned over to being just a storefront, his behavior seems rather rude. It's all about context.
If I go into a GameStop and hang around for 4 hours without buying anything (regardless of the reason), and the clerk tells me to "get the hell out," I'd have no basis for any complaint (and I doubt anyone would feel sorry for me in the slightest). On the other hand, if I go to a gaming convention to play games, watch panels, etc, and a staff member kicked me out for not buying from the vending machines, most people would consider that pretty bad behavior (regardless of the staff member's legal right to do so).
It seems to me that the employee thought he was doing the former, and Alex thought he was doing the latter. I would imagine that both of them thought they were being pretty reasonable - they just had different expectations of what the store was to be used for. Some simple communication between the manager and Alex should be all that's necessary to clear this up.
Also, if everything I posted had nothing to do with this, then what does that make all the bitter, youth-attacking posts in this thread?
Xcaliber, I thought your first post was quite reasonable (and the one above)... I think that was just a misunderstanding.
The letter should most definitely Not be posted here. It's already a bit of a circus :-/ and Alex indicated he wanted this to remain on-topic and positive (as much as possible). Publicly posting the letter of complaint would not be appropriate, imo. There is a reason things like that are conducted privately / in confidence.
But if you want a look at it, I would gladly PM it to you. But I'm afraid you missed the great spelling and grammar error party me and Azreal had, but extra input is always welcome.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: But if you want a look at it, I would gladly PM it to you. But I'm afraid you missed the great spelling and grammar error party me and Azreal had, but extra input is always welcome.
Alex I would be interested in taking a look if that's ok?
I'll like to see myself. You can add in "and I want some stuff you capitalist swine!" gratis
EDIT: NOTE THIS DAY YOU SCURVY CAT LOVERS, Frazzled may have been wrong. I know I am as shocked as you are.
In PMs with the OP he sounds like a very balanced chap and I am impressed with the whole taking an army on a bus thing, so I now pitch my tent in his camp. You're all still a bunch of hippy tree huggers though, and probably like cats too.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: But if you want a look at it, I would gladly PM it to you. But I'm afraid you missed the great spelling and grammar error party me and Azreal had, but extra input is always welcome.
I wouldn't go that far, considering I'm literally 2 1/2 times your age, with all my extra education and life experience, if I couldn't have made at least a bit of a contribution it would have been a bad job.
As it was, you had written a solid cake of a letter, I just tarted up the icing a bit!
Short, to the point, factual, avoid getting emotional, and ask for some sort of clear resolution. These are all the elements of a good complaint letter. Never say "I'm never shopping here again!" because you remove all incentive for them to fix your problem; and that's what these letters are: a problem to be fixed, not a rant.
EDIT: NOTE THIS DAY YOU SCURVY CAT LOVERS, Frazzled may have been wrong. I know I am as shocked as you are.
In PMs with the OP he sounds like a very balanced chap and I am impressed with the whole taking an army on a bus thing, so I now pitch my tent in his camp. You're all still a bunch of hippy tree huggers though, and probably like cats too.
This quote is exactly how I am explaining frazzled from now on.
As far as I can see the kid did the right thing The Manager is doing the right thing in reacting to Multiple complaints. Simple as that.
captain collius wrote: As far as I can see the kid did the right thing The Manager is doing the right thing in reacting to Multiple complaints. Simple as that.
Agreed, captain collius. Also quoting this over since it got caught on the last page:
RiTides wrote: The letter should most definitely Not be posted here. It's already a bit of a circus :-/ and Alex indicated he wanted this to remain on-topic and positive (as much as possible). Publicly posting the letter of complaint would not be appropriate, imo. There is a reason things like that are conducted privately / in confidence.
I will post it up here if that's what the Masses wish, I just thought it may of caused unneeded arguments over where the comma should go and such .
Read at your own peril, I would prefer input to be PM'ed to me rather then put on the thread if possible so as to not clutter the thread.
Spoiler:
To GW Chester, A letter of concern
This is my account of what happened on Wednesday 14th August.
I took the bus into Chester and arrived at the store at around 11 o'clock. I went into the store with the intention to buy an army figure case, but upon seeing it was out of stock I decided to wait until my dad came out of work to ask him to order one in for me. The member of staff welcomed me but was engrossed in watching a game. I greeted my friend playing the game and decided to watch the game until its finish, then play a game with him.
After the game finished my friend and I were discussing point limits and such and began to place models on the table. Upon rolling for mysterious objectives I realized I didn't have my Main Rulebook with me (it wouldn't fit in the smaller case I brought with me in anticipation of bringing a new figure case home) and my friend didn't either so another friend offered to let us use his. The member of staff then came along and told us to pack up because we didn't have our own main rulebooks. I explained why I didn't have mine, he remarked ''Should have bought a bigger case'', I pointed out the irony that I intended to buy one that same day. He said ''not my problem''. My friend, who had come in specifically to play some games, decided he would leave. I thought I could wait in the store until my dad got off work or one of my buses home was due.
I sat down on my figure box near the painting table and began to work from my codices on new army and purchase lists. After a few minutes the staff member came up to me and asked what I was doing, I told him I was creating an army list. He said ''You could do that at home, have you got anything to paint?''. I replied that I had not brought my painting equipment. He said I would have to find something to do otherwise I would have to leave. I reminded him I was creating an army list. He walked away to talk to a customer. I continued making an army list. When the customer was gone, he called to me ''I am serious, either find something to do or you have to go''. I said I was waiting for my bus, he said ''Well this isn't a day care, either buy some painting equipment or you have to go''. I said that wasn't fair, he remarked ''Life's not fair''. I then said that it's also not in GW's policy of 'We encourage people to come in and play, paint and collect our hobby in our stores', he said that if I didn't leave he would call the police. I asked what he was kicking me out for, he said for ''Doing Nothing''. I once again said this wasn't fair and that I had nowhere to go, he simply said to take it up with you. I said gladly and left.
I waited 1 hour 45 minutes at a bus stop until a bus came to take me home. My normal bus came later at 5 so the bus I caught dropped me off about 45 minutes away from my house. On the way home several of my models found themselves broke by the mileage, although I don't think I can blame that unfortunate consequence on him directly but this understandably soured my day further. Now I am not sure if what he said and did were within his rights to do, they probably were, but I believe how I was treated was not fair to a loyal customer or any customer at all.
I come to the Games Workshop store because of the friendly staff, welcoming environment and like-minded people. These are the things that make the hobby for me as much as the hobby itself, but if the store were to change from the friendly and welcoming environment I am accustomed to, I'd be forced to move to online discount suppliers. People pay the added premium because the Hobby centres are places to pursue the hobby with the help and guidance of friendly staff, and I was disappointed to find, for the first time in many years, that this wasn't the case.
I dearly hope this doesn't occur often, as I know it has never happened before with either you or Adam, so I can continue returning to my favourite hobby in my favourite hobby store again and again.
Highest regards.
Alex Wallace
Any input is good input, but I mainly want to know if I sound whiny or 'Butt-Hurt' or 'Entitled' because i tried to stay away from those things and kept with Facts really.
Alex... do not post it. Trust me (and Frazzled, although maybe he was responding to the post above mine) on this. I've been around the block on internet forums, and you do not want to grant the "masses" wish, in this case. Handle it in private with the manager / employee, and simply post what the resolution is.
Edit: I see you edited it in above, again, my advice is to remove it... no benefit can really come from having it on the forum that you couldn't get from polishing it via PM. And worse things could come...
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: I will post it up here if that's what the Masses wish, I just thought it may of caused unneeded arguments over where the comma should go and such .
Any input is good input, but I mainly want to know if I sound whiny or 'Butt-Hurt' or 'Entitled' because i tried to stay away from those things and kept with Facts really.
Alex. Please pull it. You got a lot of feedback already and even moved a few from the employee's camp to yours.
I think thats a really appropriate and well worded letter.
I think the GW Staffer could have been a bit more...diplomatic... in his handling (I don't get the "you don't have your rulebook, so you have to leave thing") but I don't think he was necessarily wrong.
We've been around the whole "not a baby sitting service" notion (and I think it's pretty funny that the staffer actually said that) and we've also done the whole "life's not fair" tango.
With that being said, I hope the GW Staffer isn't reprimanded too harshly or fired, but rather retrained to be a it more gracious to the younger customers.
Regardless, I imagine they will be a bit more clear in what the expectations are of everyone (customers and staff) in regards to treating the store as a clubhouse.
Alex, that letter is fantastic, and if I had 14 yr old students writing to that level when I was teaching, I'd be proud as hell. Nice job. Small correction: in the fourth paragraph, you wrote "broke" and it should be "broken". Small fix, but just wanted to help in any way I could.
I've seen some fellow law students write worse letters than that (admittedly the exceptions, but still). The one small issue I have with it is that I'd "work into" the introduction a bit more gently (funnel structure etc) but that's really more of a style issue, and a personal one at that. Well written, not "angry" in a way that would put a reader off of helping you - generally just a good letter of complaint.
RiTides wrote: Xcaliber, I thought your first post was quite reasonable (and the one above)... I think that was just a misunderstanding.
The letter should most definitely Not be posted here. It's already a bit of a circus :-/ and Alex indicated he wanted this to remain on-topic and positive (as much as possible). Publicly posting the letter of complaint would not be appropriate, imo. There is a reason things like that are conducted privately / in confidence.
Agreed. DON'T post the letter in public. Just keep it to PM's for those interested in viewing. Turning this thread into a potential circus isn't going to help your cause.
RiTides wrote: I'm glad to see that folks read it and reacted reasonably... cheers, Dakka! It's moments like that that give me hope
You've hit, "get off my lawn" levels of old person pessimism 'Tides Alex had gotten plenty of help from Dakkanauts, those of us just wished to see what the final outcome of the letter was. If it was one or two people I could see him not posting it just to sate their curiosity, but enough of us were interested.
RiTides wrote: Handle it in private with the manager / employee, and simply post what the resolution is.
I agree totally with this... normally. You should absolutely follow the process, and only make a public stink if you're right and if there was no satisfactory resolution.
b-b-but; this is not the case here. The barn door is open and it's not getting locked again, the die has been cast.... we're on page 20 of a public thread. The thread was re-opened specifically so we could have this new information, yes?
If it's a good letter, it serves a useful public benefit since part of the issue was a young adult requested help with conflict resolution.
If it's an awful letter, it's also useful for the same reasons, but as a critique of what not to do.
I have been in the same situation as you my friend. I know it may be a bad experiance, for 4 year the same store, every week same time like clockwork. Unfourtnatly, I was kicked out by a new store member, he was also new but what I quickly learned is many on these staff members don't hang around too long. Before you know it he may have already moved on to a different store.
Good for you expressing your story and I wish you good luck in having a good time in games workshop like you used to.
RiTides wrote: I'm glad to see that folks read it and reacted reasonably... cheers, Dakka! It's moments like that that give me hope
I like it. Its calm, acclaims damages, but is just young enough so other's don't think its a scam. I might have noted insted of online recourse, recourse to other systems, but thats just me.
Hmmm. I've been following this thread with interest and then it's revealed to be the Chester branch...
My best friend (yes, it's one of 'those' stories) who got me into wargaming used to frequent the Chester GW before it moved premises across town and he's since lost all interest in visiting there now, due to what he termed as a 'change in atmosphere' due to staff members. They've become more impersonal and try pressure sales tactics and generally made him feel uncomfortable, according to him. This has always been the GW way as far as I've known!
He's moved on and games at a club more often now and orders off of the internet instead. I'm just a lowly dirty casual (home/garage) player!
Coherent complaint letters? Kanluwen and Frazzled admitting they were wrong? Reasonable discussion on an Internet forum?
Just what the feth have I been drinking?
On-topic: Good luck with the letter Alex! The regular manager sounds like a cool guy, I've met a few people like them before. Unfortunately, I've also met a couple of pushy salespeople as well, but I won't derail your thread!
Hey, just wanted to post a resolution and thank you for everyone who stuck with me this far. Although the resolution isn't action packed or full of drama, its the resolution I would of liked the best.
The manager looked at the letter, never said anything to me other then thank you, and I have yet to see the staff member again. The manager handled it discreetly and I'm sure if I asked what he did with the info he would tell me, but I'd honestly not want to know. All I did was bring the concern to their eyes, I should have no say in there internal politics.
All I can do is hope the man is nicer to other people back in his own store in Liverpool and I can forget about it ever happening. No fuss, no gift cards, and hopefully no dismissals as I would feel horrible (He wasn't very social, but for I know his dog might of died or something).
Thanks for the support all the way through and the help in resolving the issue. As well as helping me see the other side of the story. Dakka may be full of trolls, but they are nice trolls, and they are our trolls
Thanks for posting a resolution Alex. Hope you don't have to deal with poor customer service like that again. Congrats to being one of the most mature 14 year olds to grace this forum, if not the most, as your ability to put up with the older trolls attacking you has been exemplary. Well done, sir!
I will post this for probably the fourth time in this thread:
Alex has been far, far more professional and mature in his posts in this thread than have many of his detractors (you know who you are). Those self-same detractors could take a lesson from Alex's forum presence on Dakka-Dakka and modify their posting habits accordingly.
) but there is so much more to this than is being said.
out" of many a place. So?
