Well I'm also a Swede (albeit sans ponytail), and I have been in Canada on a couple occasions in my life. These things happen. .
.
.
Wait... Maybe I am Lars... Maybe it's like in that movie, whatsitcalled, Fight Club...
CptJake wrote: I have to admit, I have not been following this very closely, but surely the 'sculpt' in the spoiler pictures is just you joking around right? Taking 5-10 minutes with your kid's PlayDoh to make fun of the KS, right?
hahahaha check out this latest quote in the Sea Monster comment section from 'Lars'
"Most of you, who read this, know I sculpt as a hobby. I have an MFA that I got from night school after my MA in engineering. So, I am adequate, and I generally know crap from cream, but I like the paint jobs on these minis (above)."
Glad he clarified that the Direwolf is larger than it would have been, historically. Pity to let scale ruin an otherwise perfect sculpt.
I wish they would stop refering to their sculpts as "studies". I think it really undersells the amount of thought, research and labour that has gone in to each and every one.
Also, if I had to make a tiny armoire to, for example,protect my family from the depridations of a malicious gnome wizard (work with me here) the very first material I would reach for is fething wax, so I'm glad the creator and I are on the same wavelength.
Most of you, who read this, know I sculpt as a hobby. I have an MFA that I got from night school after my MA in engineering. So, I am adequate, and I generally know crap from cream, but I like the paint jobs on these minis (above).
Awesome to hear they are still en route for the Dark Carnival Kickstarter in November. That's going to be glorious.
Oh man. Seriously, these links to miniature blogs here and there (last one was those horses) just feel so random. It's like they're just now having a look around the net, and being blown away by what people are doing in our hobby ("woa, look at that, they're even painting eyes on those little men!!!"). And this is in fact exactly what I think is happening. The sad part is that they in their first Kickstarter (Doggerland) presented themselves as really experienced gamers, for example:
The Doggerland design library has over 150 wargame and miniature rule sets on its shelves. Yes. We have played them all. Over the decades, we have, collectively, invested more in miniature games than the cost of a new (2014) German car.
But since then, there have been a lot of subtle hints that they aren't all that familiar with the hobby:
* Saying that they will switch their game system from Song of Blades and Heroes to Pathfinder, indicating that they might be a bit blurry on the distinction between a skirmish game and an RPG.
* Posting a link to an article about computer games as a description of how misogynic the gaming industry is, indicating that they view "gamers" as a coherent group.
* Saying that the grid they're using to show the scale of their miniatures is 28mm, indicating that they might be confusing the traditional scale of miniatures with the one-inch grid commonly used in many RPG's.
I believe they are just googling things up as they go.
Sirithiliel wrote: "Most of you, who read this, know I sculpt as a hobby. I have an MFA that I got from night school after my MA in engineering. So, I am adequate, and I generally know crap from cream, but I like the paint jobs on these minis (above)."
Really? YOu sculpt as a hobby? *snort*
It's an insult to hobby sculptors. The pics being shown off are more like they're from someone who's never sculpted at all. And, like the man says, has no idea of good or even acceptable quality in miniatures. (I know that there are some low, low standards in corners of the wargaming 'industry', and even some people ready and willing to hail these things as masterpieces*, but strewth.)
* Though modern medicine has made wonderful strides in the field of optical surgery.
Alex C wrote: Yes, our very own Highlord is going to do a painting blog I believe.
Well, if he actually GETS anything...
He's a brave man!
I'd rather write off the cash rather than receive these studies.....
Hi everyone! Been following this thread because I became a backer in, what could only be called, a moment of temporary insanity.
I was thinking the same thing, but now I'm thinking of something inspired by LadySabelle's/Shurri's annual Hirst Arts fireworks display... and blow the crud out of those models, videotape it and make sure they get a link so they can watch it. ;-)
You can send them to me. I'll set 'em on the back side of the pond where I have a little shooting range. I'll video them getting hit with a .22 for ya.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think people with that much of history of scams in the past will not bother delivering. What they will do to get funded for their Carnival KS in Nov;
They will mold and cast few pieces and update some progress pictures > show "boxes" as if all the deliveries are ready to be shipped> Launch Carnival KS> get funded and disappear
Goblini wrote: I think people with that much of history of scams in the past will not bother delivering. What they will do to get funded for their Carnival KS in Nov;
They will mold and cast few pieces and update some progress pictures > show "boxes" as if all the deliveries are ready to be shipped> Launch Carnival KS> get funded and disappear
I would actually wager money that they won't be delivering. Even in the unlikely event that they actually have access to machinery allowing them to cast these really cheaply, I bet just the shipping costs would eat up a substantial amount of the money they've raked in. I really can't see how they can launch Carnival without delivering, though, but perhaps they will find a way. Interesting times ahead!
Goblini wrote: I think people with that much of history of scams in the past will not bother delivering. What they will do to get funded for their Carnival KS in Nov;
They will mold and cast few pieces and update some progress pictures > show "boxes" as if all the deliveries are ready to be shipped> Launch Carnival KS> get funded and disappear
I would actually wager money that they won't be delivering. Even in the unlikely event that they actually have access to machinery allowing them to cast these really cheaply, I bet just the shipping costs would eat up a substantial amount of the money they've raked in. I really can't see how they can launch Carnival without delivering, though, but perhaps they will find a way. Interesting times ahead!
For November KS, I can totally see them luring talented artist or game designer who are unaware of their shadiness with some advance contract $$$. By using their names and works, they might get funded even without delivering their previous KSes.
Then they might launch Doggerland KS right after depending on reaction of backers.
They will try to make big money through KS before they disappear and that is for certain!
Sirithiliel wrote: "Most of you, who read this, know I sculpt as a hobby. I have an MFA that I got from night school after my MA in engineering. So, I am adequate, and I generally know crap from cream, but I like the paint jobs on these minis (above)."
Really? YOu sculpt as a hobby? *snort*
It's an insult to hobby sculptors. The pics being shown off are more like they're from someone who's never sculpted at all. And, like the man says, has no idea of good or even acceptable quality in miniatures. (I know that there are some low, low standards in corners of the wargaming 'industry', and even some people ready and willing to hail these things as masterpieces*, but strewth.)
* Though modern medicine has made wonderful strides in the field of optical surgery.
I agree. I've sculpted a grand total of three things. Two of them are still unfinished. Here's a pic of my second in progress one! A little griffon I'm sculpting.
I mean seriously, what are they doing over there? and dont' forget, he says he's a hobby sculptor and apparently has been doing this for years...though his quality either says he's a total liar, or just extremely untalented and needs a different field for his hobby
Yeah, I do digital sculpting and contract out to others.
That Griffon as a anatomical base with no fleshing out is already way better than anything this kickstarter has shown.
First year college students do better than this KS. You have to willfully be not trying at all to produce something as bad as this KS is. Even those that I saw initially produce bad work and wanted to legitimately improve do better in the time period shown between the ice age mammals and this.
Every time I see stuff like this it just makes me wonder why I'm bothering to try for quality. It's incredibly annoying to be stretching my finances thin doing legitimate sculpting work and actually paying my sculptors, when scammers like this just rake it in.
.....do....does anyone understand the comment in the Ice Age comment section? It seems so random and out of the blue, especially considering they weren't going to talk there anymore
I mean....what are they rambling about? Music?
On the Reaper forum, someone had a rather plausible guess on what this means:
Posted Today, 09:45 AM @nocturne, I don't think so. See the following comment the intent is to insult DWM for his criticisms.
Basically what they're trying to say is
"Our sculpts are awesome works of art. See how critics give bad reviews to things that come to be considered masterpieces! Here's something you can put in your pie hole for what you pledged"
Hey Sushi!
Wow. $15 all in, eh?
Pull the one armed bandit.
Seems like screaming at the bus stop is the same as being Robert Hughes, or is that an elitist comment?
Creator Dina Andrews Walker 12 minutes ago
DWM
Nice ghetto house. Why do you live in Japan? What do you do for a living? What education do you have? Why do you have DWM as your name? Where do you work? Can I see some of your current art? Do you have references on top of your $20 Pledge?
Creator Dina Andrews Walker 39 minutes ago
DWM
$20 and a mouth. wow. must be the best money you ever spent.
Creator Dina Andrews Walker about 1 hour ago
In their willingness to waste their considerable talent on unworthy material the Zeppelin has produced an album which is sadly reminiscent of [the Jeff Beck Group's] Truth. Like the Beck group they are also perfectly willing to make themselves a two- (or, more accurately, one-a-half) man show. It would seem that, if they’re to help fill the void created by the demise of Cream, they will have to find a producer (and editor) and some material worthy of their collective attention.
The whole album is a shuck — despite the murky songtitles and some inane lyrics that sound like Vanilla Fudge paying doggerel tribute to Aleister Crowley, the album has nothing to do with spiritualism, the occult, or anything much except stiff recitations of Cream clichés that sound like the musicians learned them out of a book, grinding on and on with dogged persistence
These guys are so French I want to force-feed them and cut out their livers. Young moderns who’ve made the Detroit-Berlin adjustment may find their squelchy synth sounds humanistic; young moderns whose asses sport parallel ports may dance till they crash. But Yank fun is much less spirituel [sic], so that God bless America, ‘One More Time’ is merely an annoying novelty stateside. The way our butts plug in, there are better beats on the damn Jadakiss CD.
Radiohead wouldn’t know a tragic hero if they were cramming for their A levels, and their idea of soul is Bono, who they imitate further at the risk of looking even more ridiculous than they already do
For those not completely sold on its folk charm, Aeroplane is thin-blooded, woolgathering stuff
A throwaway line about how — and we’re paraphrasing here — “focusing on drone and repetition makes the album sound, well, droney and repetitive. ” Well, duh
Even if Seventh Tree is sonic dishwater, I’ll give Goldfrapp enough credit to assume that this isn’t change for its own sake, that the motivation for this album’s tone wasn’t simply a fatigued boredom with their old sound. It’s just too bad most listeners won’t be able to say the same about their own reactions to this new one.
Lacking any mentionable instrumental proficiency, [Eno] claims he ‘treats’ other musicians’ instruments — though the end product of his efforts would have to be classed as indiscernible… His record is annoying because it doesn’t do anything
There are certain records that are so patently offensive that one wishes to take some kind of physical vengeance on the artists that perpetrate them.
About Exile on Main Street:
Exile On Main Street spends its four sides shading the same song in as many variations as there are Rolling Stone readymades to fill them, and if on the one hand they prove the group’s eternal constancy and appeal, it’s on the other that you can leave the album and still feel vaguely unsatisfied, not quite brought to the peaks that this band of bands has always held out as a special prize in the past… I still think that the great Stones album of their mature period is yet to come. Hopefully, Exile On Main Street will give them the solid footing they need to open up, and with a little horizon-expanding (perhaps honed by two months on the road), they might even deliver it to us the next time around.
I just got some lovely private messages from them just now, and whoever is in their comment section just went off the deep end.
Here you guys go! Spoilered, because their attitude is so awesome!
Spoiler:
Highlord, What is the problem? We are getting a little tired of bs posts. Did you Pledge $2K? Opps. No. You did not. How about drive down to NYC and have a face2face. Your comments are getting more than a little offensive.
We know the competition and we are clearly in the top 20%. If you want the top 1%, maybe you should have Pledged a lot more.
But wait, I got more!
Spoiler:
Also: what the feth is with the name? Clearly, you are not a punk rocker. And, clearly there is no "High Lord" gak going on. And, if you are the world's best mini critic, where is your KS Campaign?
Nothing but class! Might as well show everyone else just how classy these guys are!
Reaper just did a lockdown on their ADW threads. I can't blame them; there really isn't much productive to say about this. Hard to stay away though, isn't it?
What delusional world has them convinced that they are in the top 20% of miniature sculpting/production? They haven't gotten their feet off the ground and their sculpts are easily in the bottom 40% bracket, and that's being generous.
I would say it's some sort of attempt to push the negative comments down the page, but then he starts challenging Highlord to a phone call, so I really don't know.
How about you act like a real man and pick up the phone. Or do you really, really need to post in a public forum so you appear like a strong highlord guy"
Let's act like real man and suspend these insulting arrogant fething psycho from Kickstarter!
I just got some lovely private messages from them just now, and whoever is in their comment section just went off the deep end.
I'm fairly uncomfortable revealing the content of PMs, but I think I can provide hints to mine, 'cos it's basically her known attitude to the rest of the mini industry and it's customers, only couched in stronger terms. I'll directly quote this one bit, from many:
We provide what no dumb feth in the mini industry has the intelligence to provide.
How about you act like a real man and pick up the phone. Or do you really, really need to post in a public forum so you appear like a strong highlord guy
Let's act like real man and suspend these insulting arrogant fething psycho from Kickstarter!
Lol. I don't think the backers are the ones that need suspended. I suggest Dina Andrews Walker contacts kickstarter and brings this all to their attention.
Heavens knows, this project has been reported numerous times, and KS just ignored the reports. Maybe a message from the creator would finally light the fire under KS backside to make them look further into this.
I highly doubt that the creators want KS looking any further into this. This has scam written all over it.
fething psycho wrote:The $15 dollar person speaks again!
wow. let me open the moth purse so I can talk on the internet.``
we have been asked AGAIN AND AGAIN for WIP. We are doing that and now we have the `don`t show WIP` people coming out.
Colin is correct. We are trying to provide more communication. And, we have crap posts from people that have Pledged less than $20
If Kerr wants a job, contact me and we will set it up, otherwise, you have three PR people fulfilling
He/she/it seems to have something against people who gave him/her/it smaller amounts of money, but his/her/it's whole selling point is "look at all the freebies!"
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's calling out the naysayers to post links to better quality minis for the same price.
Get on it Highlord! Plenty of manufacturers to choose from...
Highlord, you are our point man in this mess. If you go down, I swear we shall come for you. At the very least your corpse shall be extracted, and then mummified and preserved, forever revered as a memory of a hero who fought alone. And when I say mummified... I of course mean embedded in Castilene.
Dina Andrews Walker 7 minutes ago wrote:
Call out:
I would like the nay-sayers to post links to miniatures of the the exact same price of better quality, today. If you can do that, we will crack the whip on the sculptors. If you can not do that you clearly state who you are in your favourite public forum.
Not sure of the KS price points but these 2 15mm (yes, 15mm) figures are 2 bucks each (very expensive for 15mm)
No, it's locked sadly. This is just insane! I'd contact Kickstarter through email though, they should not be allowed to outright bully and insult backers, either through comment or email
He wants to use the phone so he can scream and rant probably, with nothing you can do about it. Don't do it. I wouldn't. He's looking people up on Google maps? Crazy!
Don't give him your phone number. He might have caller ID
i definitely think he's copy/pasting the music stuff to try and hide comments
Until today I honestly thought ADW was simply in over their heads. Whatever you call that string of comments this morning, it convinced me they are crazy. Or scamming. Or kinda dumb. Or all three. I'm leaning towards all three.
Of course I gave them money, so who's the dumb one?
At this point, I'm riding this beast into the ground. Scam or poor planning, I'm never going to see my money or these figs.
Thanks for doing all this research guys, at least I backed out of Sea Monsters before it was too late.
Call out:
I would like the nay-sayers to post links to miniatures of the the exact same price of better quality, today. If you can do that, we will crack the whip on the sculptors. If you can not do that you clearly state who you are in your favourite public forum.
They finally convinced me. It's a scam. Classic deflection.
I suspect the music crap is to get stuff off the first (visible) page of comments. Wether to 'drown out' your voices or to hide it from KS management who may not scroll through all the posts I'm not sure.
CptJake wrote: I suspect the music crap is to get stuff off the first (visible) page of comments. Wether to 'drown out' your voices or to hide it from KS management who may not scroll through all the posts I'm not sure.
I thought that too, but then he keeps making his own controversial statements on top of those.
Click on the date of the comment, and you'll note your link at the top of your screen will include a comment number at the very end. just copy and paste that =)
if someone clicks that link it takes you directly to that comment, no matter how buried it is
I don't even think I'd been that negative in their thread.
I'm going to have to remember my Reaper login info so I can go post there, if the thread gets unlocked that is.
What a mess...
You're being targetted because you've asked questions that get to the heart of the issue, i.e. they don't have sculpts and it is harder than it looks, so they are failing.
Don't let them get to you. I do suggest screenshotting ypur onteractions with them,. I will be doing the same, because it may be needed if they take the harassment as far as they imply.
Oh and for those without accesss to the comments, LarDina has continued to copy-paste walls of text. But they've also started making comments about people's houses, making it clear they know where we live... and trying to scare off more comments.
It is actually quite disturbing.
(Also, pls forgive typos... phone posting)
ETA- ninja'd on the googlemaps commenting insanity.... I'm still stunned at this respobse.
Their antics and play dough sculpts are amusing at first, but really sad in the end. I feel bad for whoever gave these guys money, and kinda bummed that many will likely think twice about backing legit small companies in the future.
They're just gonna take the money and run, looks like they're making crap sculpts and showing them off just out of spite, and laughing all the way to the bank.
Wasn't there some congressman somewhere that did a law suit of some kind to force a fraudulent KS company to pay back their backers? Don't remember the details but it might be worth looking into...
I just read through those posts, and they're pretty creepy.
Any chance this is related to Mandelbaum? Anyone with experience with those debacles want to comment on any similarities that might exist?
Edit: I don't have any evidence to believe this is related to Mandelbaum. I just find it interesting that there could be two such unbalanced and apparently crooked people out there in this same, small, niche industry.
top 40% of the mini industry, huh???
i would say that i have never seen a mini go into production that looked even close to how horrendous these sculpts are...
that would put them in the bottom 1%, i believe...
they do get top 1% for psycho behavior, though...
gotta be good at something, i guess...
jah-joshua wrote: top 40% of the mini industry, huh???
i would say that i have never seen a mini go into production that looked even close to how horrendous these sculpts are...
that would put them in the bottom 1%, i believe...
they do get top 1% for psycho behavior, though...
gotta be good at something, i guess...
what a trainwreck...
cheers
jah
I meant the bottom 40% and that being a generous number.
Friendly Bunny Rabbit wrote: So some of ADW's comments are now being removed by Kickstarter, I take it that actually is Kickstarter doing it and not the creator removing them?
The project creator can't edit comments. This is KS deleting them.
jah-joshua wrote: top 40% of the mini industry, huh???
i would say that i have never seen a mini go into production that looked even close to how horrendous these sculpts are...
that would put them in the bottom 1%, i believe...
I have to agree.
It honestly looks like the "tools" they used for the sculpts were their fingers and fingernails. I was convinced on one of the pictures that I could see a fingerprint, but it might have just been an artifact of the picture quality.
I have now reported this project for a 2nd time. This report was due to the abusive behavior of the creators. I sent them a note, and a report giving all the links supplied by High Lord. I suggest everyone else do the same.
As a KS backer of ADW I've asked for a refund as this is now beyond a joke - although the current trainwreck that is the commenst section is almost worth the $$ I gave as a comedy read in its own right.
It is, as we watch this complete meltdown, refreshing to see from the latest irrational comments from ADW that in this day and age people can apparently still just go ahead and obtain money by false pretences and then splash it all away on at least one of 'hookers and blow'!!
Please excuse my excessively aggresive punctuation.
jah-joshua wrote: top 40% of the mini industry, huh???
i would say that i have never seen a mini go into production that looked even close to how horrendous these sculpts are...
that would put them in the bottom 1%, i believe...
they do get top 1% for psycho behavior, though...
gotta be good at something, i guess...
what a trainwreck...
cheers
jah
I meant the bottom 40% and that being a generous number.
i was referencing the post they made to Highlord T., and i mis-quoted them...
they actually said they are in the top 20%...
wow!!!
now, if DWM meant they are in the top 20% of BS artists, then i would give them that, for sure...
I'll have to try and find the direct quote, but the gist of it was that a concerned back asked a question in one of the updates, with the use of ONE exclamation point
They told him that the use of exclamation points is equivalent to yelling, and that they will not tolerate it and told all backers that they do not want exclamation points to be used
though of course THEY could use them as much as they wanted =P
Gymnogyps wrote: I tried to report it, too, but think my crappy phone signal dropped before it went through. Do you get a confirmation when you report on kickstarter?
IIRC, its just a little on screen popup of "thanks for reporting". No e-mail or anything.
Gymnogyps wrote: I tried to report it, too, but think my crappy phone signal dropped before it went through. Do you get a confirmation when you report on kickstarter?
IIRC, its just a little on screen popup of "thanks for reporting". No e-mail or anything.
She is correct. Just a little pop up. There's no point including any of those links. KS already removed them all. It seems like KS is doing more to cover this up, than they are helping with anything.
Gymnogyps wrote: I tried to report it, too, but think my crappy phone signal dropped before it went through. Do you get a confirmation when you report on kickstarter?
IIRC, its just a little on screen popup of "thanks for reporting". No e-mail or anything.
She is correct. Just a little pop up. There's no point including any of those links. KS already removed them all. It seems like KS is doing more to cover this up, than they are helping with anything.
Well, you can always contact Kickstarter and inform the company that if the situation is not otherwise resolved, it will be necessary to report it to Washington State Attorney General Bob Ferguson, or whoever your local State Attorney General is. That might get more traction.
Gymnogyps wrote: I tried to report it, too, but think my crappy phone signal dropped before it went through. Do you get a confirmation when you report on kickstarter?
IIRC, its just a little on screen popup of "thanks for reporting". No e-mail or anything.
She is correct. Just a little pop up. There's no point including any of those links. KS already removed them all. It seems like KS is doing more to cover this up, than they are helping with anything.
Well, you can always contact Kickstarter and inform the company that if the situation is not otherwise resolved, it will be necessary to report it to Washington State Attorney General Bob Ferguson, or whoever your local State Attorney General is. That might get more traction.
They can claim they arent responsible all they please. When they knowingly ignore reports of past scams attached to current kickstarters they are just as liable as the scammers themselves.
A company can write any terms of service they please. That doesn't mean it will hold up in court.
21,000 dollars seems like a fairly small amount when compared to the bad press they are receiving. There's a lot of KS backers (myself included) that are watching how this is all unfolding.
First, several of us reported ADW's latest project to Kickstarter before it funded, as being a scam. Kickstarter saying they aren't liable for projects not delivering might not hold up as well when they've been repeatedly informed that they are hosting a scam on their site (and getting money from it as a result) before it successfully funds.
Secondly, highlord, if they call you (or have already called you?) that is definitely creepy, and maybe borderline harrassment, and telling Kickstarter should put a stop to that PRONTO. I see they've already stopped posting and had a bunch of their comments deleted- I wish people had saved the text of those in particular, since the ones that are NOT deleted are already very aggressive!
Finally, this is what scammers do: they attack, they obfuscate, they engage in victim blaming... anything but admit they are in the wrong. This is most undoubtedly a scam at this point. Mandelbaum (who this is obviously not, as these guys have their own history) would use much the same tactics on here when he was actively scamming.
-------------------------
Edit: Have you noticed her facebook page, with supposedly almost 5,000 friends, leads to a "page not found" now?
https://www.facebook.com/1202497670
Again, Mandelbaum wrote the book on rotating names around for who was in charge of the project when... I'd bet quite a bit that you're dealing with 1, maximum 2 (perhaps a couple) people here, and they're just using so many names to confuse things. It's an obvious and, at least for a little while, effective delay tactic.
Obviously that is the start to a wookie. Look at the face =P
yup, just like the SCott Lantry that posted on the Reaper threads and the 'part timer' that went ballistic in the KS comment section sounded alike, and then Scott Lantry turns out to be the 'Chairman' and now Lars is spewing out similar nasty comments to both Scott and the 'part tim'er
Can't say I'm too suprised. They (he/she) has clearly shown earlier that they cannot handle any kind of critique, even if constructive or helpful.
I am kinda suprised in how this went down though. I had imagined that people would just be strung along until an attempt was made for another kickstarter and that all communication would suddenly stop.
So once again it looks more like this is a case of truly delusional people that actually thought that their pathetic attempts at professional sculpting would be well recieved by their customers rather than outright scammers that never were entertaining a thought of actually delivering anything.
Sadly, the funds will probably never be recovered, and the greatest casualty might be said to be the legit miniatures kickstarters of the future that will have a harder time gaining the communities trust.
I hope that the lesson people draw from this debacle is not to outright quit supporting kick-starters but to make more thorough investigations of the project and the creators. The warningflags were there for those who knew where to look (although I believe the most egregious warnings were temporary unavailable during the Ice age funding period due to the reaper thread being locked).
Also, for those of you having the possibility to write in the Sea-Monsters comments; since there seems to be problematic to get chargebacks from creditcards after 60 days it would be a service to keep those backers updated on the recent developments so that they may still get out while they can. I suppose there are those that has only pledged for the sea monsters and don't follow the Ace Age mammals
Looks like Aard_Rinn got in touch with person who got scammed by Dina, scott or lars in the past
Aard Rinn 24 minutes ago
"Hi my name is XXXXXXXXXXXX, I too was taken by these two scum bags in a different scam XX years ago. I have been after them since then. They owe me $60,000 which I will probably never see. They are in Canada illegally and the only way to get them is to physically hold on to them and call the cops! Please spread the word so no one else gets scammed by these two!"
Names and dates withheld to protect those involved; less than three years, though.
I am curious too... the comment said less than three years.
So must be another scam.
:O
Automatically Appended Next Post: Do you think ADW will carry on with their KS after all the things happened today?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Aarrd_Rinn is awesome!
Aard Rinn 2 minutes ago
Well, he sent me another message. If we got played, I guess at least we got played by competent crooks? If that's any comfort?
"The guy has many alias' he goes by Henry, Lars, Steven and several more that I can't remember off the top of my head. She is always Dina Walker. They claim to own a bunch of companies and properties, which of course they don't. Evergreen is also fake! If they ever threaten you with a lawyer, also fake! They have been thru Montreal once before and have also hit Toronto and Vancouver (where I am from). Richard who wrote the blog on broll.net uncovered tons of gak on them. When I met them they were boyfriend n girlfriend but they have claimed to be married, brother n sister, and also cousins. We were supposed to open a bakery and restaurant together but when we got the loan for renovations, they emptied the bank acct and left me holding the bill and a 10 year lease worth $100,000 with the city! I hired a PI to track them but they went underground for a year, until they popped up in Montreal again. They are in Canada Illegally and Henry does not have ID. My PI thinks there might be a warrant for his arrest in the US, and that is why he is hiding out here. He is very smart, and arrogant. He has scammed very large companies out of hundred of thousands of dollars of equipment and supplies! They were never really in the tv business, it was just one of their scams."
I can confirm this information. I talked to Pin mini about this a week ago almost. That guy put them up in an apartment in Montreal to help them out and gave them access to accounts for a business they were helping him with. Something about a resteraunt. The guy bought all new equipment for it and everything. They stole the equipment, cleaned his account out and left the apartment. Pretty much exact same story as Aards.
Just registered an account to post this, but was ninja'd to my very own scoop! Curses!
Either way. Welcome to Dakka. You will find this board is fairly liberal, and the mods and admins do a great job allowing people to vent, and work together to uncover suspected scams.
2. Claim another person, who coincidentally also has outrageously aggressive posting habits, had to be removed from commenting... or
3. Will we will get the, "so sorry, baby. It won't happen again. It was :insert excuse here: and it will stop this time, I promise."
Personally I think it will be #1, since they have freaked enough people out with today's behavior. They have to know it isn't going to be forgotten. Sorry only matters if they don't do it again, and they've now demonstrated they are not above fake apologies.
I actually think it is possible that the blow out was a tactic, not necessarily deliberate or planned, but effective. How many people are going to be thinking, "Man, if they just go away I don't need to deal with that drama?" A lot, I think. And that response is completely reasonable. Dealing with manipulation is so exhausting...
Goblini wrote: One thing to this that they are in Canada "illegally", they must have done some nasty things before coming to Canada.
Automatically Appended Next Post: More stuff to dig and it will never end...
I actually have a friend that works for Canadian Border Guard, and he works closely with Canadian Immigration. Any known address for these 2 clowns? I would be happy to pass along the info.
Also, someone on the ks said that Lars was using a wire armature... He's not. You can tell by looking at it. He is/was seriously sculpting those bare handed without a frame, so to speak. Thus why every single one he sculpted looked so unnatural. There were no concepts of 'joints' or movement. Its like if I watched a sculpting video in a language I don't know and just try to mimic what I see on screen, convinced that my mimicking is on par with Michelangelo.
Goblini wrote: One thing to this that they are in Canada "illegally", they must have done some nasty things before coming to Canada.
Automatically Appended Next Post: More stuff to dig and it will never end...
I actually have a friend that works for Canadian Border Guard, and he works closely with Canadian Immigration. Any known address for these 2 clowns? I would be happy to pass along the info.
I can only assume that Weaver chest twist in Montreal (can't recall the name) Address earlier mentioned in the thread.
Goblini wrote: One thing to this that they are in Canada "illegally", they must have done some nasty things before coming to Canada.
Automatically Appended Next Post: More stuff to dig and it will never end...
I actually have a friend that works for Canadian Border Guard, and he works closely with Canadian Immigration. Any known address for these 2 clowns? I would be happy to pass along the info.
I can only assume that Weaver chest twist in Montreal (can't recall the name) Address earlier mentioned in the thread.
I highly doubt it. At best it's a registered agent, like the one they have here in Delaware. At worst, it's just another sham address.
MissMelons wrote: Also, someone on the ks said that Lars was using a wire armature... He's not. You can tell by looking at it. He is/was seriously sculpting those bare handed without a frame, so to speak. Thus why every single one he sculpted looked so unnatural. There were no concepts of 'joints' or movement. Its like if I watched a sculpting video in a language I don't know and just try to mimic what I see on screen, convinced that my mimicking is on par with Michelangelo.
I think he did use wire armature before and it was all messed up as you can see wires sticking out everywhere
Only clues I can think of where they are...
-They are in Canada. (confirmed by victim and Trodax spotting google.ca link in their KS)
- Few initial hires are from Montreal. (confirmed by few people here)
we can check update pictures and some how spot things out?
Google map?
I'm not in this KS luckily and I gotta say reading all of this really makes me feel for you and the others who are in this. I just had a question as to what Reaper has to do with any of this? They have a forum and ADW made a thread there that is now closed? I just want to make sure a trusted company like Reaper isn't behind any of this junk. They have their own KS going on and honestly I have no connection with the company but it strikes me as a good, honest, American company that I don't want messed up in a scandal.
Best way to find them is to let 4chan get involved. But its a wicked place and liable to open a larger bag of worms and cause irreversible damage. @_@ As can reddit, the lesser but still pretty evil in some places.
Reaper has a more strict policy on forum behavior, which is basically, "Be Nice". However, this sort of policy does not work when investigating companies for scams, because such investigations usually start out as unsubstantiated negative comments.
I find the Reaper forums excellent for leads on miniature KS, but Dakka's where I go if I want information to actually part with my money.
And a belated hello to the Reaper and Dwarven Forge posters! (:
Very early on in the IAM campaign, I found the Kickstarter through a post in the "Kickstarters" area of the Reaper forums. As the KS gained speed, a lot of people were asking reasonable and well-thought-out questions, both dealing with the materials and processes being used on the figures, and the KS's finances. I, having seen several KS runners post on the forum, notified ADW Games of the forum, and that thread's, existence, hoping that they would go and respond to the suggestions offered, and answer any questions.
What followed was, to be blunt, a shitstorm. I have never seen a company act so unprofessionally in my life. Slurs against other, more experienced sculptors, accusations of sexism and harrassment against Reaper, insults and degridation of would-be backers...
Reaper closed the thread down, and deleted all comments by ADW Games. I got on the phone with them a few days later about another incident with a backer - I'll find the receipts in a bit - and read them the riot act... they cowtowed, offered all sorts of apologies, blamed it on a rogue sculptor... and I let it go. Shouldn't have, upon reflection, but there you are.
Reaper is innocent of any negative involvement in this; they closed the thread promptly and treated all parties fairly. That ADW games is apparently run by psychopaths isn't their fault.
Just to put a preemptive mod note in here: We do certainly allow as much discussion as possible, particularly when it is of benefit to the wargaming community, but we always ask that detailed personal information not be posted.
So, the address of a business is probably fine, the personal address of a person is definitely not. Links to information can also be fine at times. It's not really an exact science... but the idea is to keep it productive.
If you have any questions about what can be posted, please feel free to PM me or any other moderator. If you feel something is out of line, you can also hit the yellow triangle in the corner of a post. Thanks!
This standby of all ADW Games KS thus far (except the first one, but who cares?) is now in commentable form! Have some info that's not on here? Post a note! I'll take a look and punch it in! (not editable because vandalism) But have fun! Let's centralize this gak!
Alright, that was that then I guess; jeez what a ride it's been. Seems it truly was a scam, and that Scott Lantry, Lars Sunderflyrr and Henry Kipling are indeed most probably the same person. What isn't absolutely clear to me at this point is whether or not his partner, Dina Andrews Walker, is the same person as the ex-actress Dina that has an IMDB page, or if they just used photos of her to create a fake Facebook account. When they were raging and stomping around on the Reaper forum, they used this as an argument to why they would succeed; that she was a public person with 4000+ friends and why would she risk her reputation by failing on a Kickstarter campaign for the production of little toys. Why indeed.
This may be silly, but I am actually feeling a small measure of pride that they may have chewed off a bit more than they could swallow when they decided to branch into our gaming community with their scams. This may be completely misguided; it's possible that they are reading this and laughing their asses off right now, pleased as hell with how this went down. But I suspect that they thought it would be easier, and that they would come away with more. Perhaps they thought they could pull a Kingdom Death and rake in millions by just being confident and swinging out words such as "resin", "boutique", "world-class" (looking at the Gigantopithecus mini this may be hard to believe, but they actually used all those words ).
If they truly are scam artists as it seems, I think the people who got threatened in the comments section can kind of relax; I don't think they will be stalking and harassing you, instead most likely moving on to their next scam. I have no idea of course, but that's what I think; it would probably have been a worse situation if the project was a delusional individual who actually thought he had a bright future in the miniature industry. As Gymnogyps suggested, yesterday might very well have been a played tactic rather than a true tantrum, with the intent of scaring people from attempting chargeback. They must have known that it was only a matter of days until everyone would be calling them on their bs, and that an overnight freezing and treatment with limonene wouldn't turn those turd-resembling sculpts into anything acceptable.
Now I'm wondering who did all the artwork for them. The one artist I managed to get in contact with had only done a couple pieces for their very first KS campaign that was cancelled (and because of the cancellation he was never paid; he had a face-to-face meeting with a Scott Lantry in Canada by the way). But they had a lot more artwork on the Ice Age Mammals KS and the ADW Games homepage. I'm guessing there must be several other unpayed artists out there.
There is one thing that is a mystery to me, maybe you people can help me out with this one. Why did that previous victim, the person who had been scammed for $60,000 by these folks a couple of years ago, decide to contact Aard Rinn just yesterday, exactly coinciding with this gak going down in the comment section? The only plausible explanation I can see for that is that Aard Rinn yesterday posted his email address in the comments, and two hours later he was contacted (correct me if I'm wrong here aard_rinn). This in turn implies that the person was monitoring the KS comments (which fits with them being on the lookout for the scammers of course). However, a google search should have found this thread or one of the threads on Reaper quite easily. Why didn't this person come forth sooner to say his piece?
Anyway, a good thing that came out of this is that Dakkadakka received a bunch of new members! Nice to see my Reaper peeps aard-rinn, MissMelons and Sirithiliel all here!
If you're talking about p, I got the impression from PMs he sent myself, MissMelons, and ReaperBryan, that he was pursuing his own legal action (not necessarily a lawsuit) against Lars. I think he *did* say something about ADW on the Reaper forums, but it was deleted or something.
Hope the new old-faces (: stay on Dakka for awhile. Good place to keep your wallet safe!
ced1106 wrote: If you're talking about p, I got the impression from PMs he sent myself, MissMelons, and ReaperBryan, that he was pursuing his own legal action (not necessarily a lawsuit) against Lars. I think he *did* say something about ADW on the Reaper forums, but it was deleted or something.
Nah, I knew you were in contact with him and kind of suspected he had his reasons for remaining silent so I didn't push the issue. I was talking about another person, the guy that emailed Aard Rinn yesterday and said he'd been scammed in the past. I'm quoting from Goblini's post earlier on this page, the guy that said this:
The guy has many alias' he goes by Henry, Lars, Steven and several more that I can't remember off the top of my head. She is always Dina Walker. They claim to own a bunch of companies and properties, which of course they don't. Evergreen is also fake! If they ever threaten you with a lawyer, also fake! They have been thru Montreal once before and have also hit Toronto and Vancouver (where I am from). Richard who wrote the blog on broll.net uncovered tons of gak on them. When I met them they were boyfriend n girlfriend but they have claimed to be married, brother n sister, and also cousins. We were supposed to open a bakery and restaurant together but when we got the loan for renovations, they emptied the bank acct and left me holding the bill and a 10 year lease worth $100,000 with the city! I hired a PI to track them but they went underground for a year, until they popped up in Montreal again. They are in Canada Illegally and Henry does not have ID. My PI thinks there might be a warrant for his arrest in the US, and that is why he is hiding out here. He is very smart, and arrogant. He has scammed very large companies out of hundred of thousands of dollars of equipment and supplies! They were never really in the tv business, it was just one of their scams.
I just found it so strange that this guy choose to come foward at exactly the same time as Scott/Lars/Henry went off the deep end in the comments section.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's another quote from Aard Rinn from the comments btw. Everyone seems to be getting in contact with him now...
Speaking of sculptors...
Hi Aard Rinn,
I did see the ADW melt down today and I also know
you were contacted by the victim from the past whom i have been speaking with.
I found out they are scammers not long after i quit on 22nd June. Then I started warning other artists i knew in the team including Andrea Sfiligoi and woodland scenics. And learned the entire team was not paid except for Andrea Sfiligoi.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
I obviously never handed in my work not only because I wasn't paid but they never asked.
a month after i quit, they sent me a fake cease and desist email saying that I destroyed their life by contacting other employees and i stole $600 worth of materials ( which they gave to me after i spent $400 from my saving to purchase materials for their project)
But the letter did not contain that i should hand in the sculpts.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Some info cropped to protect the innocent. This was a e-mail I got from the sculptor they continually blamed for "theft" and said was spreading lies. I won't give his name without permission, since I don't want to open him to more harrassment, but this is basically proof that A) there was a team, and B) they got taken for one, with the exception of Andrea who was presumably a big enough name they didn't want to cross her.
I can confirm that this sculptor was not involved at all in any of the chatter on the Reaper forums; nor have I, as Lars and Dina insinuated, had contact with him prior to my message to him today.
I'm not in this KS luckily and I gotta say reading all of this really makes me feel for you and the others who are in this. I just had a question as to what Reaper has to do with any of this? They have a forum and ADW made a thread there that is now closed? I just want to make sure a trusted company like Reaper isn't behind any of this junk. They have their own KS going on and honestly I have no connection with the company but it strikes me as a good, honest, American company that I don't want messed up in a scandal.
We seem to be a target of theirs, for some reason, as they have made several claims that we are "stupid", "greedy" and that we have harassed them. We don't really know who they are except what people on our forum and here have uncovered.
As it happens, ADW did not make the thread there, our forumites made the thread, and we closed it when the thread and persons involved with the KS project and thread became abusive and violated our rather strict behavioral guidelines WRT politeness and civility (On the internet! I know, absurd, but we do it anyway!
We have the threads locked now on the advice of our attorney.
Someone pointed out that it has been exactly 2 weeks from the close of the Sea Monster KS, which is the point that the creator would have gotten money. That could have some bearing on this.
It is a shame that the information on the sculptor was not readily available earlier. Pictures of the good sculpts from IAM were used to promote the SeaMonsters KS.
Had it been clear that those miniatures (or the one sculpting them) was not something that could be expected; I presume less people would have backed the SeaMonsters having only empty promises and a few 2d pictures to go on.
Dina's face book is back up, last post on september.20th for a "everlane.com".
Maby I'm abit paranoid, but a site promising in house design and manufacture of clothing with no middle man, sounds alot like the promises made during this last kickstarter about miniatures.....
I can't help but wounder if that's their newest scam.... Seems these are the types to hop from one scam to the next.
I hope everyone who got caught up in this drama can recoup some of their money.
The cycle begins again. I guess we'll have to keep an eye on things and see how they unfold.
Yah. Sadly I got a feeling money they got from these kick starters will be be used for their next scam. Judgeing from the history people here have drugged up, they are career white collar crooks.
Lockark wrote: Dina's face book is back up, last post on september.20th for a "everlane.com".
Maby I'm abit paranoid, but a site promising in house design and manufacture of clothing with no middle man, sounds alot like the promises made during this last kickstarter about miniatures.....
I can't help but wounder if that's their newest scam.... Seems these are the types to hop from one scam to the next.
I hope everyone who got caught up in this drama can recoup some of their money.
Hi, everyone. Long-time lurker of both dakka and Reaper forums. Truly appreciate the efforts of everyone in this matter as well as the constructive discussion on other projects. Has saved me a few times for sure. Anyway, I have been following this closely and I just came across some info on the ADW Games website that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet. It is known that ADW tried to get Andrea Sfiligoi in the fold, but that didn't work out. However, on their webpage under the "Game Design" heading, they talk about a podcast they hosted in June talking with several other industry folks. Might be worth checking with these people for any info on the alleged scammers which could assist authorities (CC companies, KS or the law, whoever). Sorry if I missed this already being posted (not a great forum person, why I tend to mostly lurk, lol). Here's a link to the page:
Lockark wrote: Dina's face book is back up, last post on september.20th for a "everlane.com".
Link, please. Thanks!
Nergal on the Ice Age Miniatures comments wrote:Nergal about 3 hours ago
I got a feply from "Scott". He ignored my request for a refund, and told me that "Lars" has left the team, but "Steve" and "Chris" would continue to work on the sculpts. Yeah, whatever.
Aard Rinn on the Ice Age Miniatures comments wrote:
Aard Rinn about 4 hours ago
BTW, guys, if you want your pound of flesh and have a few minutes, report these guys to the RCMP.
Just the facts, pls, but go for it:
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/scams-fraudes/index-eng.htm There is a confirmed LKA that puts these guys in Montreal, and they've run scams in canada before; let's see if we can get the mounties on them!
Kajamo wrote: Someone pointed out that it has been exactly 2 weeks from the close of the Sea Monster KS, which is the point that the creator would have gotten money. That could have some bearing on this.
Yeah, that does make a lot of sense, most probably this was the reason for the outburst. I didn't think about that, it wasn't clear to me that it was exactly two weeks that was the waiting period.
So if one wants to stay positive and hopeful, I guess it's possible that Kickstarter listened to the scam reports that some of us sent in even before Sea Beasts was funded, and when the two weeks was up they didn't release the money, but instead started asking questions. ADW realised it was a done deal, and instead decided to get nasty. Sadly, I think it's a lot more likely that KS ignored those reports and just released the money, allowing the project creator to have his little revenge on the ungrateful backers.
Zywus wrote: It is a shame that the information on the sculptor was not readily available earlier. Pictures of the good sculpts from IAM were used to promote the SeaMonsters KS.
Had it been clear that those miniatures (or the one sculpting them) was not something that could be expected; I presume less people would have backed the SeaMonsters having only empty promises and a few 2d pictures to go on.
Yeah, I've been thinking that too. From the information that's been uncovered here, it seems there were people who knew this was a scam; at least the sculptor and perhaps also the game designer Andrea Sfiligio by the sound of it. Had anyone of them with inside knowledge spoken up, things might have gone differently with the Sea Beasts KS (I actually tried to get in contact with Andrea two weeks ago, but he never got back to me). Of course, we now know that the project creator was not below threatening lawsuit or harassment, so you can't really blame people for remaining silent. It is what it is I guess, it's just kind of annoying that they managed to get Sea Beasts funded!
BigDaddio wrote: Hi, everyone. Long-time lurker of both dakka and Reaper forums. Truly appreciate the efforts of everyone in this matter as well as the constructive discussion on other projects. Has saved me a few times for sure. Anyway, I have been following this closely and I just came across some info on the ADW Games website that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet. It is known that ADW tried to get Andrea Sfiligoi in the fold, but that didn't work out. However, on their webpage under the "Game Design" heading, they talk about a podcast they hosted in June talking with several other industry folks. Might be worth checking with these people for any info on the alleged scammers which could assist authorities (CC companies, KS or the law, whoever). Sorry if I missed this already being posted (not a great forum person, why I tend to mostly lurk, lol). Here's a link to the page:
Good point. I wonder if Shane Hensley and Wolfgang Baur even know that they are featured on the ADW site. Does anyone know how to contact them? I honestly haven't listened to the podcasts either, has anyone?
I don't think we should let Kickstarter off the hook on this one. I just appended to my open ticket with them asking what actions they are going to take and reminding them that multiple people reported this project quite a while ago. I think they at least owe us some explanation of what they are doing. Are these people banned and the project is dead? Did KS give them the money for the Sea Monster despite all the tickets that were put in warning them?
Trodax wrote: Alright, I've reached out to Shane Hensley and Wolfgang Baur; if nothing else I thought it might be a good idea to let them know about the situation.
Can't wait. Good job Trodax
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thes Hunter wrote: Since Evergreen Entertainment LLC was the corporation that charged your credit card, there is always the BBB.
I see 0 complaints have been lodged in the last 3 years.
Kajamo wrote: I don't think we should let Kickstarter off the hook on this one. I just appended to my open ticket with them asking what actions they are going to take and reminding them that multiple people reported this project quite a while ago. I think they at least owe us some explanation of what they are doing. Are these people banned and the project is dead? Did KS give them the money for the Sea Monster despite all the tickets that were put in warning them?
This puts KS in a bit of a new position since the project was reported before it funded and definitely before the funds would have been transferred out of Kiskctarter's custody. Legally-speaking, I don't know if that attaches any liability to Kickstarter.
But I would also file complaints with Amazon. Amazon has a lot more skin in the game, so to speak, and lots of clout with Kickstarter. As of now, the projects have not been fulfilled, but it is also fairly early. There is, however, the statement from the project creator saying that failing to fulfill within 75 days constituted fraud.
I don't know much about this area of law, and I'm not sure where it would fall, such as within the Uniform Commercial Code, Title 15, or what. In addition to contacting Amazon.com, Kickstarter.com, and the Better Business Bureau, I also recommend contacting the US Federal Trade Commission's Bureau of Consumer Protection.
I suggest that backers cast a wide net on this if they are looking for either restitution (which probably won't happen), or justice. Fraudsters like these are elusive, but a lot of work has already gone into exposing the underbelly of what went on here. While I personally feel that crowdfunding is very much a wild west of small speculative transactions, Kickstarter is taking a substantive percentage of the funds raised in projects like these, which raises some interesting questions about the extent of the company's responsibility to the users of the platform. There has to be some precedent with auction sites, such as Ebay, though my experience lies exclusively with patent litigation in that regard.
Kickstarter is facilitating a transaction via an online software platform, much like an auction website, but rather than collecting flat fees for use of the platform, Kickstarter takes a percentage of the funds raised, which seems more in line with transactional service fees such as with credit cards or paypal. But as I mentioned, I don't know much about how such commerce is regulated in the United States.
The bright side is that, at the end of the day, consumers in our little niche market will be more educated as a result of these efforts, though I absolutely hope that events such as these do not have too much of a chilling effect on the viability of Kickstarter as a funding platform for startup miniatures companies.
Kajamo wrote: I don't think we should let Kickstarter off the hook on this one. I just appended to my open ticket with them asking what actions they are going to take and reminding them that multiple people reported this project quite a while ago. I think they at least owe us some explanation of what they are doing. Are these people banned and the project is dead? Did KS give them the money for the Sea Monster despite all the tickets that were put in warning them?
Totally agreed. I can't see how to follow up, though (I already reported the project before it funded). Is there an easy way to contact Kickstarter further about a project after it has funded? I'd like to follow up on the report I put in beforehand, but can't see how to do so.
If you filed a report they send you an email. In the body of that email is your ticket number, clicking on that brings you to your ticket. There is a "comment" section below, where you can append info.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, needless to say I am not getting very far with Kickstarter. After I asked for a status I got a nicely worded response saying they had forwarded it to the Integrity team, and a "While we're unable to comment about actions taken against users or projects" comment.
Still trying, I came back with:
"I have a question. You wrote: "While we're unable to comment about actions taken against users or projects", is that some general policy of Kickstarter? Because I and others are very much a vested part of this project, we spent money and associated our names with this. I understand that you may not be able to say much about actions taken against individuals, but the general status of the project itself should be information that is available to it's backers."
I am not expecting a response, but it seems pretty clear that Kickstarter doesn't view backers as a stakeholder in their processes. Insert your money, thanks for playing.
That is really dissapointing, even if one in hundreds report the project, Kickstarter should look into the case rather than throwing up somewhat 'automated' message. Absolute dissapointment.
Backers provided more than enough evidences for them to do something about it while expressing their grief... No way!
Let's talk to CEO about this and have whoever avoiding this matter get fired!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Had to create Twitter account just to tweet Yancey Strickler.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I hope he gets the message.
Zywus wrote: It is a shame that the information on the sculptor was not readily available earlier. Pictures of the good sculpts from IAM were used to promote the SeaMonsters KS.
Had it been clear that those miniatures (or the one sculpting them) was not something that could be expected; I presume less people would have backed the SeaMonsters having only empty promises and a few 2d pictures to go on.
Yeah, I've been thinking that too. From the information that's been uncovered here, it seems there were people who knew this was a scam; at least the sculptor and perhaps also the game designer Andrea Sfiligio by the sound of it. Had anyone of them with inside knowledge spoken up, things might have gone differently with the Sea Beasts KS (I actually tried to get in contact with Andrea two weeks ago, but he never got back to me). Of course, we now know that the project creator was not below threatening lawsuit or harassment, so you can't really blame people for remaining silent. It is what it is I guess, it's just kind of annoying that they managed to get Sea Beasts funded!
Yea, I can't really fault the sculptors too much since I can understand not wanting to get embroiled in the whole mess.
Still much might have been won if the sculptor had reported unauthorized use of the pictures of the mammoth, terrorbird etc. to Kickstarter. Had those pictures been removed many people would have thought twice before gambling their funds. It was more or less the hope of getting those sculpts that pushed many over the edge I believe.
I'm not involved in this Kickstarter, but I have some information for those of you who are.
Last week both Kickstarter and Amazon Payments changed their terms of use. Long story short, both of them have removed all responsibility for Kickstarter projects from themselves. They lay all the responsibility on the project creator, from the timeframe, goals, and product distribution. They want to be nothing but the money men.
This leaves backers with no safety net at all as far as scams and frauds. This ADW issue is the perfect example of how Kickstarter and Amazon have washed their hands of the potential problems, even before the second project ended.
The lesson is this: Do your homework! Look into the company and people running it. All the information that has come to light in the past few weeks was out there somewhere.
I do hope that the backers of this project can get their money back from this project. We all need to be much more careful from now on.
Round 3 with Kickstarter. By the way, these are not automated responses, someone is typing them.
"Hi XXXXXXXX,
Our policy is not to comment on actions taken against users or projects, nor to comment on the status of a project overall - that part is in the hands of the creators themselves. I'm sorry for the inconvenience, but I appreciate you letting us know about this situation."
So, my final (hopefully) response:
"Ok, I understand your position. I don't agree with it, but I understand it.
Apparently backers are not considered stakeholders in these projects.
I request to be removed from this project. I will deal with the money issue on
my own. I just want my name removed, and the abusive creators of this project to
no longer have the ability to email me. "
Let's see where that goes. The way I phrased it I doubt they will turn me down, it would be difficult to be the enablers of abuse.
Zywus wrote: Yea, I can't really fault the sculptors too much since I can understand not wanting to get embroiled in the whole mess.
Still much might have been won if the sculptor had reported unauthorized use of the pictures of the mammoth, terrorbird etc. to Kickstarter. Had those pictures been removed many people would have thought twice before gambling their funds. It was more or less the hope of getting those sculpts that pushed many over the edge I believe.
While this is true, I really have to agree with what Pingo on the Reaper forum said concerning this:
I would like to nip in the bud some speculation I have seen (not on Reaper's forums) about why the artists did not speak up earlier about being stiffed by the project creators.
The project creators have acted abusively in public towards people on this forum and their own backers on Kickstarter over simple queries and comments about their project. I think it's safe to assume this is established behavior from them.
If threats of lawsuits and insinuative comments about knowing exactly where people live are creepy in a public venue, imagine how much worse they would be coming in private correspondence from one's business client.
(I don't even want to think about whether these people were on their good behavior for public consumption.)
If there are several artists whose good names were pulled into this (and this company seems to have a habit of that, if the PBS report about their videography activities is anything to go by) who were subsequently unpaid and maltreated, it is perfectly understandable that they might wish to keep as great a distance between them and these people as possible.
There's also the impression this company tried to give of being rich, connected and powerful. A lone freelance artist is unlikely to be willing to butt heads with such a group, especially if it puts frothing abuse and threats to the artist's reputation and livelihood in its correspondence.
This company seems to have a history of using people. It must be awful to be first abused and then to realize that your work was bait.
The freelance artists were victims as much as everyone else.
She's right; these people were frickin scary. It is clear to me now that the reason for them "accidentally" sending out the surveys a week or so ago was done to get access to as many addresses as they could, in order to gain as much leverage as possible when they went full-blown intimidating the other day.
"Scott" wrote a few abusive emails to me, which I tried to fence of. The interesting thing is, he said that he supposedly understood my point of view and turned friendly after my second mail. In that I tried to stomp down and told him in no uncertain terms what I fought of his behavior - dropping a few hints that I am not a poor kid, but that I am running my own business with employees etc. He already had my adress from the survey. I work in a neighboring town, but I guess he found not only my private place but also my business homepage - I guess he turned friendly not because of my arguments, but because he saw that I am no small student to be bullied. I guess I have been played....
BTW: I got a mail from him this morning (!) saying that "Lars" had left the project but his two freelance sculptors would continue working on it. No idea why he did that, I told him what I thought about him before, he cannot believe that he might get me back into anything.
The idea of scammers having backers' personal information is what Kickstarter should be aware of. It could be extremely dangerous. Also I'd suggest just don't open their email. Who knows what kind of spyware they could be using.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You have to wonder why they are insisting on calling backers or send personal emails rather than commenting on KS site.
Automatically Appended Next Post: At this point, they could easily use your ID to scam others.
Automatically Appended Next Post: saw some people on Ks looking for tel number
Aqua+ Productions
51 W 52nd Street
New York, NY 10019
T 646.396.9737
I would like to stress a point that has already been made here on the forum, but needs to be repeated:
While Kickstarter has a ToS, it's doesn't completely indemnify them. There are enough legal cases with big companies such as Sony where this has proven to be true. The bottom line is that Kickstarter has accepted a fee from an entity who could be proven in a court of law to have defrauded several hundred people. Kickstarter's ToS very well may not protect them from this fact as there may be a case because they:
1) Created an environment for fraud to take place. Their inaction of doing anything about it during the KS and after, if shown that they did allow it to go through and allowed the release of funds, could make them culpable... and/or Amazon... depending how far our messages got.
2) Directly profiting from that fraud. This is the big one that their ToS would probably not protect them against... fraud is a criminal charge, after all, not a civil matter which is what ToSes are covered under.
If anyone is up to it they could contact a lawyer and see if there's a potential case.
Another option, maybe a better one before contacting a lawyer, is to "leak" this story to a major media site like Wired... I think there's enough for a story. That'd get Kickstarter's attention, especially if they're painted in a poor light.
This is definitely Fraud and not a civil matter since everything is fake about them. Especially when they are illegal immigrants and have no valid status.
I don't think civil court or lawyer can help resolve this matter but perhaps gov. Fraud investigation or Immigration Canada might do something about it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just tried calling and it said "Y Max Communications".
Apparently it was Voice over IP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: A scammers' favorite phone service
Goblini wrote: This is definitely Fraud and not a civil matter since everything is fake about them. Especially when they are illegal immigrants and have no valid status.
I don't think civil court or lawyer can help resolve this matter but perhaps gov. Fraud investigation or Immigration Canada might do something about it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just tried calling and it said "Y Max Communications".
Apparently it was Voice over IP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: A scammers' favorite phone service
This link might be helpful if you want those two lovelies get caught for either staying in Canada illegally or their scam.
I definitely agree that it's fraud, and thus not a civil matter. I'm unclear if you are pointing that out because you misread what I wrote in my post, or just re-confirming it in agreement with what I wrote.
Edit: Ok, it's late and I'm not reading things properly. Ignore above. Time for bed.
Goblini wrote: I was reconfirming that it is fraud but not a lawyer's matter.
It can be both, you know.
In terms of civil litigation, Kickstarter's terms of service could potentially be helpful to backers seeking restitution, though probably not in this case as the changes were not made until recently.
Kickstarter's terms of service would, unless I am mistaken, essentially be part of the agreement between a backer and a project creator. Because projects are subject to approval by Kickstarter, and ostensibly must meet Kickstarter's terms of service, both backers and project creators have a reasonable expectation that the project will conform to Kickstarter's terms of service. In this sense, any violation of Kickstarter's terms of service could, I suppose, be viewed as a violation of the agreement between the backer and the project creator.
For example, although making a material misrepresentation is already a no-no when negotiating a contract or terms of sale, Kickstarter has written that into its terms of service, and specified that the 'window' within which a material misrepresentation violates the terms of service is any time during the campaign.
Has anyone identified any demonstrable material misrepresentations made during these Kickstarter campaigns? Another tack might be to bring any identifiable material misrepresentations to Kickstarter's attention and demand restitution.
Weeble, you are totally right. I did not think of it at all.
Nergal made a comment saying that Kickstarter will look in to the case nice.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I hope Backers' concerns get resolved as well as Kickstarter put end to ADW's scam that caused more than enough damage on everyone who got involved.
Yet again small minced scammers fail to see the bigger picture.
ADW could have smirked behind their masks while raking profit in from a legit release of what could have been 3 KS'd projects with momentum for future business and releases>
ALONG with hobby good will.
Thinking they are smarter than they actually are has probably cost ADW in its various guises a lot lot more than they get in these wonderful little cons.
Can Ouze not work on a Prehistoric Flying Assault Butts kickstarter to show em how its done? (give the community what it wants )
For misrepresentations: I know it was asked I believe in the sea monsters KS if the evergreen entertainment led my dina walker was the same evergreen entertainment led by Dina Walker who failed to produce the movie Resonant, who apparently took preorders for that movie and then we have reports of people not receiving those DVDs.
Lars replied that they were different.
I don't have time to look up the exact quote, but I know it is there, and we all know that these two companies are the same.
Mr. Burning wrote: Can Ouze not work on a Prehistoric Flying Assault Butts kickstarter to show em how its done? (give the community what it wants )
I've managed that project quite horribly (still fulfilling it!), so that's probably a bad idea.However the butt-related miniature niche is wide open for anyone else who would like to try.
Here is how Kickstarter has removed itself from all action regarding ADW and backers. This is from their old terms of use that both projects fall under.
Kickstarter is a platform where Project Creators run campaigns to fund creative projects by offering rewards to raise money from Backers. By creating a fundraising campaign on Kickstarter, you as the Project Creator are offering the public the opportunity to enter into a contract with you. By backing a fundraising campaign on Kickstarter, you as the Backer accept that offer and the contract between Backer and Project Creator is formed. Kickstarter is not a party to that agreement between the Backer and Project Creator. All dealings are solely between Users.
Kickstarter is not involved in the project at all according to these terms. They will not go to bat for any backer even if the project turns into a fraud case like this one. The odd thing is that just under the above statement you find this bullet point:
Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.
That sounds great until you get to the bottom of that section of the TOS. There you find this gem:
Kickstarter is under no obligation to become involved in disputes between any Users, or between Users and any third party arising in connection with the use of the Service.
As well as this:
You release Kickstarter, its officers, employees, agents, and successors in rights from claims, damages, and demands of every kind, known or unknown, suspected or unsuspected, disclosed or undisclosed, arising out of or in any way related to such disputes and the Service.
The short story is if someone makes an awesome project with a vapor company under a false name they can just disappear after getting their funds, and Kickstarter has no responsibility to find them or get any of the money back at all. You are screwed.
A few caveats to those Kickstarter Terms of Service.
First, a civil exculpatory clause should not impact criminal liability.
Second, Kickstarter says that it is not obligated to become party to a dispute between a backer and a project creator. This does not mean Kickstarter cannot choose to involve itself, which the company may be motivated to do if it is facing loss of goodwill due to bad press. Kickstarter may also voluntarily do something that makes it a party to the contract.
Third, such exculpatory clauses are not silver bullets that hold up in all circumstances. For example, gross negligence can defeat an exculpatory clause. Plaintiff lawyers have to contend with exculpatory clauses all of the time. Just Google "how to beat an exculpatory clause" and you'll get hundreds of thousands of hits.
In a dispute between a backer and a project creator, it seems reasonable to me to view Kickstarter as a third party to the contract under the terms of service, assuming an arms length transaction between the backer and the project creator. However, once Kickstarter begins to get directly involved with the way information is communicated to backers, such as by deleting the project creator's comments, I would think the waters start to get murkier.
Ergo:
So, Kickstarter, you claim to not be a party to the contract between myself and the project creator. Yet without my knowledge you limited my access to information being communicated to me by a party to that contract while it was being negotiated.
It seems to me that once you start down a road like that a boilerplate exculpatory clause is at least able to be challenged.
Thes Hunter wrote: For misrepresentations: I know it was asked I believe in the sea monsters KS if the evergreen entertainment led my dina walker was the same evergreen entertainment led by Dina Walker who failed to produce the movie Resonant, who apparently took preorders for that movie and then we have reports of people not receiving those DVDs.
Lars replied that they were different.
I don't have time to look up the exact quote, but I know it is there, and we all know that these two companies are the same.
Was it this one you meant, from the Sea Monster comments:
Creator Dina Andrews Walker on September 7 wrote:_Lars_
been addressed already, estrus
no relation.
For misrepresentation, wouldn't almost anything do (I'm not exactly sure what the term entails)? Like for example this quote that I also noticed in the Sea Beasts comments:
Creator Dina Andrews Walker on September 9 wrote:Also, of note: some of your concerns I address directly on this KS.
1. There is a 100% money back guarantee if we are late in delivering
2. There is a 100% money back guarantee if you do not like the sculpts
3. My team will have all of the Sea Monster sculpts completed before the end of the month.
I am shocked that Kickstarter isn't being more aggressive in dealing with ADW's use of Kickstarter resources to track down and harass Kickstarter backers!
Thanks as usual to Weeble for the legal viewpoint. I, in no way, am claiming to fully understand all the legal issues involved here. I am, however, reading the TOS and thinking that Kickstarter could simply say "We had no idea, and we aren't getting involved. Take it up with ADW."
However, to Weeble's point, things could be very different when they start messing with posts and such. We'll just have to wait and see.
Trodex those are exactly the quotes I was thinking of. And I think the more double statements, and misrepresentations we document, the better the case is.
Like having the one post about the money back guarantees and then the messages where they say there is a no refund policy.
Shows they say one thing before they get the money, and another when they get it.
A material misrepresentation is going to be any alteration, ommission, or obfuscation of a fact that would influence a party's view of the contract or its terms.
For example, if I would not enter into an agreement with someone who has been linked to seemingly fraudulent behavior in the past, misrepresenting that information would be material to the contract.
Basically, you can lie about whatever you want so long as it has no bearing on the contract. If you misrepresent something that is related to our agreement or my perception of the agreement, then it is a problem. So far as I understand.
weeble1000 wrote: A material misrepresentation is going to be any alteration, ommission, or obfuscation of a fact that would influence a party's view of the contract or its terms.
For example, if I would not enter into an agreement with someone who has been linked to seemingly fraudulent behavior in the past, misrepresenting that information would be material to the contract.
Basically, you can lie about whatever you want so long as it has no bearing on the contract. If you misrepresent something that is related to our agreement or my perception of the agreement, then it is a problem. So far as I understand.
Agreed. ADW states they are an above board miniatures start up with an idea they are pitching through Kickstarter. Kickstarter says OK create a project. ADW is found out to be a fraud. Where does this leave Kickstarter?
Kickstarter says the contract is between the creator and backers, so they have no obligation to either party, right? If ADW dissolves itself, and "Lars" or whomever goes underground who is left to take responsibility? Not Kickstarter, they got "cheated" like everyone else by not knowing who they were dealing with. Now the backers are back to square one.
CptJake wrote: Except Kickstarter didn't get cheated. They got their percentage of the pledge total.
Your'e right they did get their percentage. I used the word "cheated" only to indicate the line of reasoning they could use if this whole mess ended up in court.
OK. Any case being made against Kickstarter will never hold. Since we use their service and have agreed to it then their hands are washed of any legal action.
Ever look at the Areal kickstarter? Backers had been screaming, SCREAMING scam for the entire 30 days that ks ran. This is like easily a thousand people at least, backers and not that kept reporting and sending messages to ks that it was a scam, the guy whose name was under the ks was under trial for fraud for Pete's sake and ks okayed the ks anyway. Various gaming news outlets were reporting it and do you know what finally got that ks canceled on it's VERY LAST DAY? The creator backed themselves for over ten grand to get the project to fund.
Kajamo wrote: Round 3 with Kickstarter. By the way, these are not automated responses, someone is typing them.
"Hi XXXXXXXX,
Our policy is not to comment on actions taken against users or projects, nor to comment on the status of a project overall - that part is in the hands of the creators themselves. I'm sorry for the inconvenience, but I appreciate you letting us know about this situation."
So, my final (hopefully) response:
"Ok, I understand your position. I don't agree with it, but I understand it.
Apparently backers are not considered stakeholders in these projects.
I request to be removed from this project. I will deal with the money issue on
my own. I just want my name removed, and the abusive creators of this project to
no longer have the ability to email me. "
Let's see where that goes. The way I phrased it I doubt they will turn me down, it would be difficult to be the enablers of abuse.
Round 4: Kickstarter said "We're unfortunately not able to remove backers from projects, but you can unsubscribe to updates from this project via the Notifications tab of your Account Settings."
So I have responded that if I do that, will they be totally unable to communicate with me, or is that just for updates?
Wow, who knew it was so hard to remove yourself from an abusive situation.
A creator can remove you as backer from a project after it has funded but KS themselves can't? seems hard to believe.
I have been removed from a project post funding when the creator decided they couldn't fulfill the project and everyone was refunded (KS issued the refunds). Others have been removed from projects by the creator post funding.
Good news for the ones who really liked those initial sculpts (assuming this is an actual company and the Scott in question isn't "Scott Lantry" )
Anyone familliar with this company 'Hearthstone miniatures'?
I can't seem to find any homepage and they don't even show up on regular facebook, just that m.facebook page MissMelons links to. (I'm really not very Facebook savvy to it may well just be me that have a hard time navigating it).
This is not the same Scott. He's a regular of the reaper forums and a great fellow. We hope that he works with the sculptor more in the future because his other sculpts are awesome.
Well, unlike pledging for Kickstarter, you are quite protected if you buy a model from a company like this directly using Paypal, as long as you file a claim within 45 days. I wouldn't be worried about it, personally. (And soon that claim window will be 180 days, for any transactions from late November onwards!)
I don't see the Mammoth from the original campaign in that pic, though?
Just note, this exact scenario happened with the Doom that came to Atlantic City kickstarter. Another company was able to pick up production of the items and sell it, although I believe they amazingly and graciously were also able to fulfill the original campaign (I don't think that will happen here).
RiTides wrote: Well, unlike pledging for Kickstarter, you are quite protected if you buy a model from a company like this directly using Paypal, as long as you file a claim within 45 days. I wouldn't be worried about it, personally. (And soon that claim window will be 180 days, for any transactions from late November onwards!)
I don't see the Mammoth from the original campaign in that pic, though?
Just note, this exact scenario happened with the Doom that came to Atlantic City kickstarter. Another company was able to pick up production of the items and sell it, although I believe they amazingly and graciously were also able to fulfill the original campaign (I don't think that will happen here).
We still haven't seen if these will be sold directly, or if these will go to kickstarter. In fact if you look at the facebook page you will see this:
"I've gotten a lot of questions about whether I am going to do a kickstarter or not. I leave that option open but if i do it will be small and limited. I want to grow slowly and organically, kickstarter is a great tool but its not one I need to use right now. Instead, I will be doing small, incremental releases in order to build up my capabilities and learn about the business. I think for some people, kickstarter has become a forgone conclusion for a new miniatures company. As this is a fun side business for now I simply have no need to grow fast, all i am shooting for is break even."
Hopefully these will be sold directly and never see a KS campaign.
The mammoth won't be available. The artist gifted it to the original designer that also got.....taken by ADW. The gnome on the bunny was gifted to Andrea.
I expect that we will see more and better works from the sculptor in the future.
Based on what he commented, and his facebook profile He sounds like just an honest guy who really loves miniatures.
He backed other Kses unlike ADW.
I can see that he is modest( not arrogant) in his comments.
Scott Maurer about 5 hours ago
@William
My company, Hearth Stone Miniatures has acquired through great generosity from the sculptor many of the original good sculpts that were used to sell this project. I will be producing them in resin and putting them up for sale on my website.
Scott Maurer 13 minutes ago
@zoroaster, by day i am a mild mannered financial services employee. By night and any spare moment i run a small scale resin casting business and paint miniatures. I am a rabid fan of competition miniature painting and fine miniatures in general. I love making cool stuff and want to try my hand at running a miniatures company. I'm a terrible sculptor and no great artist but i am good at resin casting and i think have good taste in miniatures. In hopes that other people like what i like i started this business. It is an absolute dream for me and i hope to exceed everyone's expectations.
I met the sculptor of this work on a forum and i talked about partnering on some sculpts. When this blew up i was offered these sculpts. I'm honored to do this. Privileged to have the opportunity and excited to be cutting my teeth on something so cool.
I hope to not only provide these awesome works but many others. Did you have any specific questions? Here is my website:
https://hearthstoneminiatures.squarespace.com I don't have anything up for sale but i do go into a little bit of detail about my plans and hopes for the future of miniatures.
Scott
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wonder what happened to Dina and lars...
any thoughts?
I've spoken to both the sculptor and to Scott from Hearth Stone.. The sculptor confirms that he sent the minis to him. It's legit. I assume that this is going to be one of the shared profit "artist lines".
I certainly hope so anyways, that sculptor has a thread on the Reaper forums to show off his work, and it's impressive across the board.
I have absolute faith that Hearth Stone is a legit startup from a guy who is doing this in his spare time, he's just starting slow intentionally. I intend to pick up some of those minis myself. Too bad about the mammoth, but maybe we'll see another version at some point.
First post btw, but I've been trolling this thread since things started to go sour after IAM ended. Happy to have been introduced to this resource.
Goblini wrote: Wonder what happened to Dina and lars...
any thoughts?
Likely reprimanded by Kickstarter for their creepy and aggressive behavior / comments towards backers (some of which KS deleted). That could cause them to go underground... KS likely knows they messed this up, but won't intervene as it would set a precedent for their doing so.
Just want to drop by and say hi! I am a real person.
I know i just started my Facebook page for hearth stone but i thought i was going to have more time to build up. This event kind of gave me a massive kick in the butt to get moving so I am sort of just trying my best to get in gear.
I want to say thanks to cedric for pointing me here. I've read the thread on this ks, as I was a backer (bad decisions were made) but never joined to comment.
I wanted to jump in and introduce myself.
I'm Scott Maurer. I live in Raleigh, NC with my wife and two corgis (huge fan of corgis). I work in insurance for my day job and I love competition miniature painting. Hearth Stone was supposed to be a small side project but this opportunity has sort of forced me to up my commitment, not a bad thing. I will not do a kickstarter for these sculpts, its not necesary since the biggest expense is already paid. I'll be doing the casting myself and selling directly through my website. I may try to get a local retail presence but won't do much beyond that just due to time constraints.
Without a doubt, this is a dream for me. I love miniatures and miniature painting. I've for a long time dreamt of doing something substantial in the field. This is a great start for me.
I will try to keep the price as low as i can on these minis. They are a lot of resin to cast and more importantly silicone in the mold making (silicone is pricey stuff). I cannot offer the kind of deal adw was scamming off on people but I will try to offer a low price in recognition of the previous kickstarter they were involved in.
@Goblini: you say you "can see that this guy is modest (not arrogant) from his comments", but the tagline on his Facebook page says, "The highest quality resin miniatures, from the best artists in the business."...
that is quite a claim, seen as how there is nothing cast yet, and those prehistoric mammals are not the highest quality sculpts i have ever seen, nor is the sculptor a big name...
now if they had Allan C., Thomas David, MIKH, or any other really amazing, internationally known, sculptor on the team, i would believe that claim...
for now, it just seems like a bunch of hot air...
best of luck to Scott, though...
i hope he helps out the sculptor who got burned by ADW to get some compensation for his work...
i look forward to seeing Scott prove his claim, and blow us away with some amazing minis...
he's got a lot of stiff competition to top, though...
Jah,
Agreed. I have made some big claims and that is my vision for my business. This opportunity came on unexpectedly and I felt like I had to sieze it.
I will be working with some big named sculptors on my personal line but the artist lines are targeted at new and aspiring sculptors. This definitely falls under that category.
I would love it if you stuck around and watched it develop.
Scott
I know i just started my Facebook page for hearth stone but i thought i was going to have more time to build up. This event kind of gave me a massive kick in the butt to get moving so I am sort of just trying my best to get in gear.
I want to say thanks to cedric for pointing me here. I've read the thread on this ks, as I was a backer (bad decisions were made) but never joined to comment.
I wanted to jump in and introduce myself.
I'm Scott Maurer. I live in Raleigh, NC with my wife and two corgis (huge fan of corgis). I work in insurance for my day job and I love competition miniature painting. Hearth Stone was supposed to be a small side project but this opportunity has sort of forced me to up my commitment, not a bad thing. I will not do a kickstarter for these sculpts, its not necesary since the biggest expense is already paid. I'll be doing the casting myself and selling directly through my website. I may try to get a local retail presence but won't do much beyond that just due to time constraints.
Without a doubt, this is a dream for me. I love miniatures and miniature painting. I've for a long time dreamt of doing something substantial in the field. This is a great start for me.
I will try to keep the price as low as i can on these minis. They are a lot of resin to cast and more importantly silicone in the mold making (silicone is pricey stuff). I cannot offer the kind of deal adw was scamming off on people but I will try to offer a low price in recognition of the previous kickstarter they were involved in.
Any questions?
Thanks for coming here and making an introduction. Welcome to Dakka. I am sure you noticed the attention that these miniatures have received over the last couple of months. There's a lot of people that were burned pretty bad through the ADW KS. All I can recommend is, you conduct yourself with complete transparency. The community certainly has been watching, and will continue to watch.
Best of luck moving forward. A lot of members are very keen to get their hands on these miniatures. I am glad somebody moved in to successfully make that happen.
Thanks! I'm a pretty straight forward guy and i will be as transparent as possible. I definitely understand the trepidation here. I just appreciate the opportunity to earn people's business.
I appreciate all the advice and well wishes too. It's a bit overwhelming but fun.
hearthstoneminis wrote: Thanks! I'm a pretty straight forward guy and i will be as transparent as possible. I definitely understand the trepidation here. I just appreciate the opportunity to earn people's business.
I appreciate all the advice and well wishes too. It's a bit overwhelming but fun.
I think you will find the members of Dakka are a great community. They are very welcoming to new artists, products, companies, etc. ADW games would have seen that as well, had they not been playing the scam game. I think they would have went very far if they were an honest company. They left a ton of money on the table over the long term, for a short term payout.
You may want to start a new thread in the news and rumors forum. This thread here is full of negative vibes. Don't use this thread to communicate with the community. Start a new, fresh thread, where we can all show our support.
Vermis wrote: Ugh. I'd kinda hoped those things would disappear with this whole brouhaha.
Why?
'Cos they ain't good. I'm sympathetic to the sculptor for being conned along with all the backers; in fact more sympathetic, 'cos he was probably too easily buttered up by Lars et al, while I think the backers must've just been a bit blind. I think that because the first time I saw the 'superior' sculpts and their design sketches some signs of inexperience jumped out at me - lack of observation, lack of control, awkward posing, misdirecting 'style' elements. Along with them being pimped (and continuing to be pimped, to some degree) as hyperfantasmagorical sculpts that'll make the industry fall to it's knees, that gave me the first clue that these people didn't really know much about the industry, what they were doing, and what they needed, and so that the kickstarter was in danger of tripping up and leaving a lot of disgruntled backers.
Maybe the sculptor's pre-ADW work, not based on those sketches, is a bit better. But to be frank I think some of the later castilene sculpts wouldn't have been too much worse with a bit of extra hair texture and a rub with limolene.
jah-joshua wrote:@Goblini: you say you "can see that this guy is modest (not arrogant) from his comments", but the tagline on his Facebook page says, "The highest quality resin miniatures, from the best artists in the business."...
that is quite a claim, seen as how there is nothing cast yet, and those prehistoric mammals are not the highest quality sculpts i have ever seen, nor is the sculptor a big name...
now if they had Allan C., Thomas David, MIKH, or any other really amazing, internationally known, sculptor on the team, i would believe that claim...
for now, it just seems like a bunch of hot air...
i look forward to seeing Scott prove his claim, and blow us away with some amazing minis...
he's got a lot of stiff competition to top, though...
I have my own theories on why we didn't hear anything else from the creators of both Ice Age and Sea Monsters. Sea Monsters closed on the 10th. Amazon doesn't clear the money until 14 days after the KS closes to deal with declines and etc.
Interesting that multiple 'studies' were completed for both Ice Age and Sea Monsters between the 10th and the 23, but very few have heard anything from them since the 24th. Except a few reports of them responding to say 'no refunds', when it was said that there was a full refund policy during the KS.
Thes Hunter wrote: I have my own theories on why we didn't hear anything else from the creators of both Ice Age and Sea Monsters. Sea Monsters closed on the 10th. Amazon doesn't clear the money until 14 days after the KS closes to deal with declines and etc.
Interesting that multiple 'studies' were completed for both Ice Age and Sea Monsters between the 10th and the 23, but very few have heard anything from them since the 24th. Except a few reports of them responding to say 'no refunds', when it was said that there was a full refund policy during the KS.
ADW Games guarantees that all minis will be delivered by (u.s.) Thanksgiving or we refund. No questions.
MissMelons wrote: OK. Any case being made against Kickstarter will never hold. Since we use their service and have agreed to it then their hands are washed of any legal action.
Ever look at the Areal kickstarter? Backers had been screaming, SCREAMING scam for the entire 30 days that ks ran. This is like easily a thousand people at least, backers and not that kept reporting and sending messages to ks that it was a scam, the guy whose name was under the ks was under trial for fraud for Pete's sake and ks okayed the ks anyway. Various gaming news outlets were reporting it and do you know what finally got that ks canceled on it's VERY LAST DAY? The creator backed themselves for over ten grand to get the project to fund.
That's it. This happened before the change
Kickstarter doesn't care.
I saw it happen in another kickstarter I backed, although in that case, they backed themselves for close to 50k. The only reason I didn't drop my pledge is because at the time, I wasn't sure how.
Goblyn wrote: ADW Games guarantees that all minis will be delivered by (u.s.) Thanksgiving or we refund. No questions.
Hee hee! Yeah, that cracks me up, too.
Up Front said they'd give refunds as well. Gee, guess what happened with them. Promising refunds, of course, is a stalling tactic to prevent credit card chargebacks. Small companies *cannot* promise refunds, because KS projects rarely make money (as in liquid cash), but instead increase capital (eg. pay for molds or other fixed costs). Big companies (eg. CMON, Mantic, Reaper) don't make a bit deal about refunds. They just do them, to get upset customers off their back and look good to other backers.
I continue to go round and round with Kickstarter.
They are claiming that they can't stop creators from contacting backers, which is total BS because the email came from "notification@kickstarter.com".
But they want me to report if any emails violate their guidelines. Not sure why, since that is exactly what I did and as far as I can tell they do nothing about it. So what would be the point?
Following the exchange of comments on this Kickstarter Campaign earlier in the week, Laurence Elkins, and the Company have decided to amicably and mutually part ways.
From Mr. Elkins: "It has become quite obvious that I do not have the temperament, or anger threshold level, to interact with Internet communications that turn abusive and non-social for the sake of being same. As such, I am removing myself from ADWGAMES and her KS Campaigns. Please note that none of my comments were sanctioned, condoned by ADWGAMES, and my posting on the comment section of the KS Campaign was done so without their knowledge, consent or review. I wish both the ADWGAMES team and the quiet, decent customers found on KS, the best of luck and success. And, I apologize if I let a few personal attacks from aggressive Pledgers get the best of me and diminish the quality of communication from the ADWGAMES side."
Schedule for production before Mr. Elkins left was is approximately two weeks. We currently believe it will take an extra week due to this change in talent resources. ADWGAMES apologizes for the unsupervised actions related to this series of communcations.
And right on the footsteps of that update, comes update 120
Spoiler:
Hello. This is Susan Taylor. As you know, I am handling fulfillment of this KS Campaign moving froward.
This Update is to inform you that as of last week, there has been a change in management for ADWGAMES, and subsequently, this Campaign.
We will have a significant Update of miniature photos posted on Oct. 10, 2014 and October 17, 2104, comprising, close to 100% of the miniatures and stretch goals for the Campaign.
Shortly thereafter, we will begin production and delivery.
Following the exchange of comments on this Kickstarter Campaign earlier in the week, Laurence Elkins, and the Company have decided to amicably and mutually part ways.
From Mr. Elkins: "It has become quite obvious that I do not have the temperament, or anger threshold level, to interact with Internet communications that turn abusive and non-social for the sake of being same. As such, I am removing myself from ADWGAMES and her KS Campaigns. Please note that none of my comments were sanctioned, condoned by ADWGAMES, and my posting on the comment section of the KS Campaign was done so without their knowledge, consent or review. I wish both the ADWGAMES team and the quiet, decent customers found on KS, the best of luck and success. And, I apologize if I let a few personal attacks from aggressive Pledgers get the best of me and diminish the quality of communication from the ADWGAMES side."
Schedule for production before Mr. Elkins left was is approximately two weeks. We currently believe it will take an extra week due to this change in talent resources. ADWGAMES apologizes for the unsupervised actions related to this series of communcations.
Followed by:
Spoiler:
Majour Update and Production Schedule
Hello. This is Susan Taylor. As you know, I am handling fulfillment of this KS Campaign moving froward.
This Update is to inform you that as of last week, there has been a change in management for ADWGAMES, and subsequently, this Campaign.
We will have a significant Update of miniature photos posted on Oct. 10, 2014 and October 17, 2104, comprising, close to 100% of the miniatures and stretch goals for the Campaign.
Shortly thereafter, we will begin production and delivery.
Which I guess means they'd like everyone to believe that "Lars" was "Laurence Elkins" and that anyone who works for ADW must have the inability to spell words with "or" in them. Or "Wourds" as they would spell it. Because it's not clearly 1 person with multiple personalities, not at all, no, honestly.
I thought most of the chargebacks would have occurred by this point though.
Maybe for the sea monster KS? I'd had enough of ADW to steer clear of that one, so I'm not sure how much actual delaying is going to occur through this.
Can't ADW contest the chargebacks? I'm not sure, TBH.
To me, this appears to be about a strong need to be viewed as faultless, which is also evidenced by the complete inability to handle anything but fawning and adulation.
Need to be viewed as a flawless person is a symptom of several personality/psychological disorders.
I am guessing this whole thing is likely not about money, at all. More likely it is about.... playing with people's heads, and winning. Win at what, you might ask? Anything.
Ugh it makes me feel ill.
PS I am not a mental health professional, but have dealt with a lot of these types, sadly. I have very little tolerance for these types of games...
Ketara wrote: The old bait and switch eh? It's like watching an old Mandelbaum rerun.
Man, it is indeed! It's like there's a scammers playbook...
inquisitorlewis wrote: It's a delay tactic to try to keep credit card companies off of their backs.
I agree that it is undoubtedly a delaying tactic. Changing of personnel in charge is a tried and true method, as evidenced by Defiance Games, Mandelbaum, etc etc.
Pretty obviously, this update is a delaying tactic to prevent CC chargebacks. If you've followed the "What does this mean for Up Front" KS thread, once a merchant provides a statement to the cc company, it becomes harder to get your money back. And this update would explain the "provisional" refunds mentioned in the IAKS comments.
To add to the fun...the address given for Weaver, Chester, and Tweed is 228 Park Avenue South, New York, NY 10003. I had a friend stop by and she sent me the photo now included in Aard's google doc.
I just did a reverse image search on the photo they use on their contact page and it is Collins Court, in Halifax, Nova Scotia. The photo was stolen off a pro photographer's web site.
Guys, I'd like to ask for a full refund. Unfortunately, I paid my $125+shipping with a pre-paid card. Anyone knows how I can file a dispute? It's a paypal Mastercard. Thanks.
I thought I would jump back in here to recap. I was sent an inept threatening email and I countered and told them to serve me. I also requested that they give me a valid address where I can serve them. I also have filed a DMCA complaint with Kickstarter to defend my intellectual property. I want all of you to know, they will not scare me off. I own the rights to this, they cannot do anything to touch me or Hearth Stone.
Thanks
Scott
Stay on your CC companies. Start insisting they investigate for fraud. If you feel they don't do a satisfactory investigation, call the BBB and report the CC company.
They offer fraud protection for a reason. Hold them to it.
Sirithiliel wrote: Check out the latest update...lol...copy/paste from wikipedia and lots of puffing and blowing hot air, I think
I really feel bad for everyone that got scammed by these idiots. That being said, I am really enjoying watching this "company" crash, burn, rerise, and crash and burn again. What a bunch (or one) of nuts.
BTW I would be mighty tempted to donate to a KS helping with legal fees, if Hearth Stone should need to go that direction.
This is... adorable. They're like squealing toddlers. Didn't realize that scamming hundreds of people just meant there were hundreds of people to frigging hunt you down, did they?
Also, I'm working on an official list of grievances for this KS. So far I've got -
hidden & falsified identities
misrepresented their location to prevent legal action
threatened customers phyically by looking up their houses and writing menacing comments about them (this is, according to my professors, a form of threat that can be basis for a restraining order)
represented their product falsely to consumers, using concept art and sculpts that they had not paid for and did not own
replaced quality product for which we paid with low-quality sculpts below even the lowest standards of the industry, without offering a refund to discontent customers
failed pay sculptors and artists for products to the detriment of customers, to the effect that we will not be getting the sculpts we pledged for due to this failure to pay.
attacked reaper and her customers, slandering the name of a respected member of the industry.
Any additional ideas? I'm writing it up with the help of one of my professors, so while the final list may not have many letters after my name, it should be good enough for sending to people like the Attorney General.
I will also contact the owners of the art used in the Sea Monsters KS and some of the later IAM goals to let them know their art is being used on a scam page. Maybe some of them would be interested in a DCMA takedown request, especially the people who's art was to be "concepts" for sculpts, in light of these new legal threats...
Here's the update... this is a piece of work. Spoilered because the copypasta is really long.
Spoiler:
NOTICE TO PLEDGERS OF IAM RE: COPYRIGHT, TRADEMARK AND TRADE SECRET INFRINGEMENT
20 comments
[From Susan Taylor]
NOTICE TO PLEDGERS OF IAM OF COPYRIGHT, TRADEMARK AND TRADE SECRET INFRINGEMENT
After reading posts from the comment section and several outside sources, it has come to my attention that there are several issues that need to be directly and immediately addressed regarding ADWGAMES and the IAM KS Campaign. And, as is typical of internet posts that require no validation, most of the facts that have been presented by third-parties are wrong.
Here are the facts:
1. "Ice Age Mammals" is a miniature property and owns common law trademark that is verified through the KS Campaign itself. Specifically, this includes "Terror Birds" and the specific, illustrated IAM offered in the KS Campaign as they specifically relate to the world of miniatures. This IP has belonged to the Company well in advance of any KS Campaign, and is defined by the actual instantiation and application of the extinct animals in a particular context, i.e., as miniatures for games and collectibles and as a part of a fictional world, Doggerland;
2. One (of four) sculptors was hired by the company under a contract agreement which specified that The "Sculptor" would deliver, over the course of her employment, sculpts of IAM mammals, for which The "Sculptor" was provided extensive reference art and coaching by ADW staff. At no point was the "Sculptor", or any artist, a Partner of the Company or KS, nor or Co-Creator of the IAM IP. Furthermore, no employee has IP rights assigned to them if they simply choose to quit and steal same. The employment contracts were extensive and explicit in outlining trade secrets, duties, requirements, obligations, the non transfer of rights and non-invention by the contracted employee.
Now, regarding this "Sculptor":
The "Sculptor" was unemployed when The "Sculptor" answered the ad for ADW.
The "Sculptor" has no history working in game miniatures.
The "Sculptor" has no history of having sculpted animals.
The "Sculptor" started a competing company the day the IAM met its KS goal.
The "Sculptor" and certain "Pledgers" for the IAM KS Campaign are using all of the extinct animal IP for the miniature/game industry in a new, competing enterprise. (That is like starting a Dungeon and Dragons company, called Dungeons and Dragons, once a minor artist on the team saw the first investment come in the door.)
There has been chatter about a "con". The above provides the outline of the true "con" game.
To the specifics of the breach in contract and the intent to defraud the KS Pledgers and the KS Campaign:
1. No sculpts were handed into ADW at any time- which was breach of the "Sculptor's" contract ;
2. No time cards were handed into ADW at any time- which was breach of the "Sculptor's" contract;
3. Once the IAM KS was met its goal the "Sculptor" "quit" the company, again, without handing in a single sculpt, and after having misappropriated $1000 in materials from the company- which was breach of the "Sculptor's" contract and, as we will see, much more;
4. The "Sculptor" immediately started a competing company began contacting IAM Pledgers to purchase from her and to undermine ADW-which was breach of the "Sculptor's" contract, and, again, as we will see, much more;
5. The "Sculptor" continued to contact all ADW vendors, Business Partners and Pledgers for Band of Gnomes, including Andrea Sfilgoloi who breached his contract to publish Band of Gnomes and chose to encourage and support the actions of the which was breach of the "Sculptor" while The "Sculptor" endeavoured to - which was breach of contract and tortuous interference on the "Sculptor's" part;
6. The "Sculptor" teamed up with Andrea Sfigoloi, who suggested they The "Sculptor" change her name, and a Hearthstone miniatures to offer the exact miniatures that The "Sculptor" refused to hand into IAM while under contract - which is copyright infringement, trademark infringement and trade secret appropriation. (see, below)
7. The "Sculptor" chose to cover her intent and tracks with ad hominem attacks against the KS team and individuals on the team, as did the Pledgers the "Sculptor" contacted to support the activities. The intent, as we see it, was for a failing sculptor with no career to pretend to join a company in order to study their product and instantly knock it off if the KS was successful. With a handful of Pledgers, it seems as if The "Sculptor" is momentarily successful in stealing the intellectual property that is the registered and validated property of a U.S. Company. What The "Sculptor", and the few Pledgers who are "siding" with her actions, fails to understand is that her actions, and the actions of the Pledgers, are in violation of civil and criminal law, and a violation of the goodwill of the common Pledgers who supported the IAM KS in good faith.
To wit:
Copyright infringement is reproducing, distributing, displaying or performing a work, or to make derivative works, without permission from the copyright holder, which is typically a published or other business representing or assigned by the work's creator. It is often called "piracy".[45] While copyright is created the instance a work is fixed, generally the copyright holder can only get money damages if the owner registers the copyright. Enforcement of copyright is generally the responsibility of the copyright holder.[46] The ACTA trade agreement, signed in May 2011 by the United States, Japan, Switzerland, and the EU, requires that its parties add criminal penalties, including incarceration and fines, for copyright and trademark infringement, and obligated the parties to active police for infringement.[47][48] There is a safe harbor to use copyrighted works under the fair use doctrine.
Trademark infringement occurs when one party uses a trademark that is identical or confusingly similar to a trademark owned by another party, in relation to products or services which are identical or similar to the products or services of the other party. As with copyright, there are common law rights protecting a trademark, but registering a trademark provides legal advantages for enforcement. Infringement can be addressed by civil litigation and, in several jurisdictions, under criminal law. In the United States, the Trademark Counterfeiting Act of 1984 criminalized the intentional trade in counterfeit goods and services and ACTA amplified the penalties.[47][48]
Trade secret misappropriation is different from violations of other intellectual property laws, since by definition trade secrets are secret, while patents and registered copyrights and trademarks are publicly available. In the United States, trade secrets are protected under state law, and states have nearly universally adopted the Uniform Trade Secrets Act. The United States also has federal law in the form of the Economic Espionage Act of 1996 (18 U.S.C. §§ 1831–1839), which makes the theft or misappropriation of a trade secret a federal crime. This law contains two provisions criminalizing two sorts of activity. The first, 18 U.S.C. § 1831(a), criminalizes the theft of trade secrets to benefit foreign powers. The second, 18 U.S.C. § 1832, criminalizes their theft for commercial or economic purposes. (The statutory penalties are different for the two offenses.) In Commonwealth common law jurisdictions, confidentiality and trade secrets are regarded as an equitable right rather than a property right but penalties for theft are roughly the same as the United States.
At this point in time, we are seeking to protect the Company, her original creatives and holders of the IP, and those who Pledged in good faith. In addition, we are investigating our legal options regarding those Pledgers that have contacted and supported the "Sculptor". We will be taking all legal action available against any and all parties that have violated the intellectual property rights of ADWGAMES, or have libeled ADWGAMES in an effort to promote the sale of stolen property from same.
Thankfully, this process is assisted by the fact that the parties involved have proudly announced (on public forums and via direct email to myself) that they are taking over the IP of ADW and that they have no concern for the rule of law governing same.
I would have hoped that the community would have come down on the side of the creator- which in this case is ADWGAMES, and while the majourity have, we are shocked and dismayed that a select few are supporting, and comprising a team, that are not only willfully and blatantly infringing on the rights of the team that did create the IAM IP, but are casually dismissing the U.S. and international laws that protect the creators and owners of intellectual property.
As such, we are looking into all legal remedies offered by the law, as outlined, above, regarding all parties mentioned above, for this truly horrifying turn of events, and extreme violation of the public trust.
Why bring this up now?
Illegal activity of this sort just causes delays for the Campaign rewards and diminish the protections for all creatives, be they writers or programmers or independent business people, and it certainly effects all future KS Campaigners, that may seek to develop their own IP in the future.
As the legal proceedings move forward, we will keep you informed.
Note: this in no way effects ADWGAMES commitment to fulfill on the IAM Campaign. At most, it unnecessarily and unreasonably has slowed down the process. And, we remain committed to delivering to those Pledgers whose trust has been violated by the actions of those who have devoted their conscious actions to COPYRIGHT, TRADEMARK AND TRADE SECRET INFRINGEMENT .
We look forward to a satisfying resolution to this matter in the very near future and to providing you with the miniatures and content that were developed by the core team many years ago.
I am so flattered and humbled by your offer. I doubt that will ever be necesary. I highly doubt these people can show up in a court room. I can't believe how awesome people have been through this whole thing. Oddly, this has greatly renewed my faith in humanity. Every one of you has been great. Thank you so much.
hearthstoneminis wrote: I am so flattered and humbled by your offer. I doubt that will ever be necesary. I highly doubt these people can show up in a court room. I can't believe how awesome people have been through this whole thing. Oddly, this has greatly renewed my faith in humanity. Every one of you has been great. Thank you so much.
I think we've all just seen it before. If Daniel Mandelbaum, Defiance, and to a much lesser extent, Maelstrom hadn't occurred, we'd probably be a bit more forgiving. But as RiTides said earlier, its almost like there's a scammer's handbook when it comes to trying to take people's money and not give anything back, and we've documented all the tricks in it over the years.
Are you in trouble? Are people starting to suspect that your scam is a con, and you haven't exceeded the chargeback time limit? Buy our book today, and learn how to:
-Avoid registering your business,
-Change the person in charge of the company,
-Attribute a delay to 'personal reasons (both unspecified and medical emergencies),
-Write intimidating threats of litigation,
-Find a usable PO box address for your company,
-Talk it out on the phone with unsatisfied targets instead of risking leaving a potentially incriminating paper trail,
-Dodge all questions (like politicians do!)
Simply sign up to our kickstarter on www.kickstarter.com/scammingsconsformugs and receive a hundred dollars free today!*
*hundred dollars only payable after 180 day period and after payment of fifty dollar processing fee
Contractual obligations are a two-way street, though of course the actual terms of the contract would be pretty critical to any dispute.
If the contract consisted of the contents of the email shown above, those allegations are pretty laughable. If Hearthstone Miniatures does get stuck in a legal dispute, or would like to consult an attorney about these IP and contractual issues, I recommend contacting a local organization that provides legal support to artists, such as Lawyers for the Creative Arts or Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts.
Consideration is one of the single most important part of a contract. Without it there is no longer an agreement. The agreement is contingent on consideration and the artists were never paid. I've talked to a lawyer about this. I'm pretty safe as I am acting in good faith. Should I be ordered by a judge to do something I will comply but until then everything is bluster.
weeble1000 wrote: If the contract consisted of the contents of the email shown above, those allegations are pretty laughable. If Hearthstone Miniatures does get stuck in a legal dispute, or would like to consult an attorney about these IP and contractual issues, I recommend contacting a local organization that provides legal support to artists, such as Lawyers for the Creative Arts or Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts.
Good work!
Does any of this legal support exist in the Montreal Quebec area, or support museums? I don't get why these scammers haven't just disappeared from KS. If they've stolen 60K from an artist, their actions on KS don't make sense. I'm going with the "part of a larger scheme" idea for now.
hearthstoneminis wrote: I look forward to proving myself! I don't take it personally. after everything that has happened, I can understand your trepidation.
I'm really looking forward to seeing these minis!
Something interesting in the comments, responding to the legalese update...
Andrea Sfiligoi(SongOfBlades&Heroes) about 1 hour ago
I could waste time typing a reply if you had at least typed my name right. you mispelled it twice. "cooperation" with you costed me two months of game design time that I will never get back. You failed to sign the contract You accuse me of breaching (while you had my work delivered to you in advance, and I even supplied the artwork for the aborted gnome skirmish game that you failed to provide on that kickstarter launch because, you told me, the artist left you to go on holiday with his girlfriend. I did not side with anyone. I gave you my work within the contract time limits, and pulled out of a disastrous ks campaign where backers were insulted and previous artists working for you contacted me saying they were never paid for their work. My honorability and professionalism stands before everyone's eyes in the industry. Any backers who would like to contact me, please feel free to do so at andreasfiligoi@gmail.com.
Andrea Sfiligoi(SongOfBlades&Heroes) about 1 hour ago
And by the way saying that i suggested a name change or any other info to a rival company is something you invented out of whole cloth. I have known of the other company here, on the comments section of this ks.
Andrea Sfiligoi(SongOfBlades&Heroes) about 1 hour ago
by the way, I had ZERO interests in the minis. I just pledged here out of good will and to get the KS rolling, since we were supposed to do work together. I even persuaded a good friend of mine (Massimo on this KS) to send in his small pledge to help. This is how I was planning to sabotage your KS - giving you over 170 dollars of pledges, free artwork on the gnome KS, and respecting my (unsigned by you) contract and delivering the game text a few days before the deadline.
Another backer commented, on the main page:
I sent another email to KS for Susan's violation of the TOS. Their reply:
"Our Integrity team is aware of this project."
So... this is now how I envision kickstarter's "Integrity team."
I wonder if their "Integrity" team is aware of this thread over here?
20 pages and going strong, as well as over 25 thousand views. As their "Integrity" team sits around twiddling their thumbs, the entire company is looking like enablers.
The gaming community is a die hard bunch. This is turning into a PR nightmare for KS. I am in a few KS right now, but won't be getting involved in anymore until KS shows that they are serious about their so called "integrity"
Plenty of companies using KS, even relatively known ones, seem to throw integrity out the window when it comes to fulfilling the promises made during the project.
And PLENTY of fan boy pledgers seem to accept breaches of integrity as just part of doing business, and as long as they eventually get their toys are happy being lied to and misled. "Well the situation changed." "Other companies are worse!" Frankly I'm disgusted with it.
Companies like this one are truly heinous, and do make others look 'better' for certain values of 'better', but I'll be fethed if I'm going to accept being treated like gak after paying money and then be quiet and complacent about it. I'm just not wired that way.
CptJake wrote: Plenty of companies using KS, even relatively known ones, seem to throw integrity out the window when it comes to fulfilling the promises made during the project.
Well, the trick is to find the companies that match your buying temperament and wallet, ennit?
It's a pretty simple matter to read the comments and updates of a creator's previous KS. If the creator delivers within a time period that's reasonable to *you* and the comments are up to *your* level of satisfaction, then you've found a project you can or at least might back.
If it's the creator's first project, expect delays. If "you're not wired that way", then ignore them all. You'll miss out on some good values, but rarely will you miss out on a delayed project. Dwarven Forge is the only exception I can think of, but even Reaper had delays with its first KS. (And, speaking of value, know the difference between "value" and "too good to be true".)
Myself, after two delayed boardgames, won't back non-miniature boardgame KS anymore. Unlike miniatures, it easy to find a boardgame at any OLGS at a good discount. I also won't back product design or technology projects because the product might be obsolete or available from a retail competitor by the time it's completed after delays. I also see terrain and bases as a more competitive product than miniatures (one castle is pretty much like another and cork works fine for my tabletop boardgame miniatures) so expect to be more particular about which projects I back (DF yes, UpWorks no).
KS is not a store. But the good news is that, if you don't like to make your purchases on KS, there *are* stores out there to give you better service -- and sometimes prices. Do your research and shop wisely!
CptJake wrote: Plenty of companies using KS, even relatively known ones, seem to throw integrity out the window when it comes to fulfilling the promises made during the project.
Well, the trick is to find the companies that match your buying temperament and wallet, ennit?
It's a pretty simple matter to read the comments and updates of a creator's previous KS. If the creator delivers within a time period that's reasonable to *you* and the comments are up to *your* level of satisfaction, then you've found a project you can or at least might back.
If it's the creator's first project, expect delays. If "you're not wired that way", then ignore them all. You'll miss out on some good values, but rarely will you miss out on a delayed project. Dwarven Forge is the only exception I can think of, but even Reaper had delays with its first KS. (And, speaking of value, know the difference between "value" and "too good to be true".)
Myself, after two delayed boardgames, won't back non-miniature boardgame KS anymore. Unlike miniatures, it easy to find a boardgame at any OLGS at a good discount. I also won't back product design or technology projects because the product might be obsolete or available from a retail competitor by the time it's completed after delays. I also see terrain and bases as a more competitive product than miniatures (one castle is pretty much like another and cork works fine for my tabletop boardgame miniatures) so expect to be more particular about which projects I back (DF yes, UpWorks no).
KS is not a store. But the good news is that, if you don't like to make your purchases on KS, there *are* stores out there to give you better service -- and sometimes prices. Do your research and shop wisely!
KS is not a store, except when companies expressly use it as a store to accept pre-orders. That ship has sailed a while ago, to pretend differently is ignorant.
As far as delays go, I urge you to read my whole post and find the word 'delay' or 'late' in it. I don't think you will. Focusing your response as if that is what I was complaining about shows you have missed my point. Perhaps I was not clear, it happens.
Late/Delays if properly communicated and explained are not an issue to me. Lying about delays/reasons or concealing delays however are examples (but not the only ones) of the integrity breaches I posted about. Telling me you will start shipping on X, then waiting 6 weeks after X with no communication while folks are wondering and asking how shipping is going, just to be eventually told "Oh, something came up and we have not yet started shipping' is an issue, not the delay itself. It may be a subtle distinction, but it is one worth making.
Kickstarter is now a full fledged casino in my mind. You take a gamble whenever you back a project. You can minimize your chance of loss by backing a company that has had successful projects in the past, but that still isn't a guarantee that you will get anything. Thinking that Kickstarter or your credit card company will do anything for you if a project goes belly up is the same a believing a casino will give you back the money you lost at the roulette table. This is going to sour the gaming community on future projects, no doubt, and that's not good. Some projects need a funding boost, and it's too bad if good projects never become a reality because of Kickstarters inability to police itself.
inquisitorlewis wrote: I wonder if their "Integrity" team is aware of this thread over here?
20 pages and going strong, as well as over 25 thousand views. As their "Integrity" team sits around twiddling their thumbs, the entire company is looking like enablers.
The gaming community is a die hard bunch. This is turning into a PR nightmare for KS. I am in a few KS right now, but won't be getting involved in anymore until KS shows that they are serious about their so called "integrity"
Agreed 100% that this reflects very poorly on Kickstarter.
As far as the whole "Kickstarter is not a store" mantra, I view it as one of those lies where if it gets repeated often enough, people will believe it to be true. It is actually really poor form, ced1106, to keep repeating that propaganda in relation to this project, which is, by all indications, a scam.
Kickstarter says they are not a store. CptJake explains better than I why that is a falsehood. While that slogan makes sense to help define what kickstarter claims to want to be, using to dismiss any and all consumer concerns regardless of context (which I've seen a lot, not just here) is what makes blind repetition a big problem.
As for this project, several backers posted in comments yesterday that reports are getting made to the FTC. One backer stated that he has information indicating that at least one other kickstarter project is under FTC investigation, which is a great sign.
ETA-
JudgeShamgar wrote: Kickstarter is now a full fledged casino in my mind. You take a gamble whenever you back a project. You can minimize your chance of loss by backing a company that has had successful projects in the past, but that still isn't a guarantee that you will get anything. Thinking that Kickstarter or your credit card company will do anything for you if a project goes belly up is the same a believing a casino will give you back the money you lost at the roulette table. This is going to sour the gaming community on future projects, no doubt, and that's not good. Some projects need a funding boost, and it's too bad if good projects never become a reality because of Kickstarters inability to police itself.
Except that casinos don't pretend to be a happy place where everyone is all good. And, casinos can't just completely stack decks and rig slots in their favor. There are rules as to just how much they can slant the odds. Kickstarter is more like walking into a shiny, pretty casino and having no idea who are conmen and who are casino employees.
Gymnogyps wrote: Except that casinos don't pretend to be a happy place where everyone is all good. And, casinos can't just completely stack decks and rig slots in their favor. There are rules as to just how much they can slant the odds. Kickstarter is more like walking into a shiny, pretty casino and having no idea who are conmen and who are casino employees.
Casinos want you to believe they are happy places. They can and will swap out the shoe on a game of blackjack if a player gets into a winning streak. The real difference is that you know all the employees in a casino are designed to help you loose money, i.e. they are conmen.
Kickstarter by contrast wants you to believe they have some kind of responsibility to you the backer. However according to this whole scenario they really don't care about you the backer, they really don't care about the project, or it's creators either. They are interested in the fee they can impose for presenting the project to the world, and connecting backers, and creators. When things are going well it's not a problem for them, when things go bad, it's not their problem.
Kickstarter is basically venture capitalism. Sept instead of buying stake in a company to increase your equity or for a cut of profits we are getting kicknacks, sweaters and potato salad.
Some times ventures fail. That's how the world works. It's the accepted level of risk going into a kickstarter. It's not for everyone, that's OK. Some people don't like any uncertainties going into something. But that doesn't mean you get to compare ever one who is a honest user of Kickstarter a con artist.
Multiple people from this very community have ran successful Kickstarter. I'm insulted if you are suggesting they are con artists.
Risk also doesn't excuse frauds and Con men/women like thows seen here. They need to be accountable and their "feet put to the fire".
Lockark wrote: Kickstarter is basically venture capitalism. Sept instead of buying stake in a company to increase your equity or for a cut of profits we are getting kicknacks, sweaters and potato salad.
Some times ventures fail. That's how the world works. It's the accepted level of risk going into a kickstarter. It's not for everyone, that's OK. Some people don't like any uncertainties going into something. But that doesn't mean you get to compare ever one who is a honest user of Kickstarter a con artist.
Multiple people from this very community have ran successful Kickstarter. I'm insulted if you are suggesting they are con artists.
Risk also doesn't excuse frauds and Con men/women like thows seen here. They need to be accountable and their "feet put to the fire".
My post had nothing to do with backers. I was comparing the risk of using a casino to using Kickstarter.
Short story is, sometimes you win, and sometimes you loose.
EDIT- I can compare the people who run Kickstarter to conmen when they allowed a second project from ADW that people warned them was a scam. They sat on their hands, and refused to take action when they knew the project was suspect. That inaction is just as bad as if they had aided ADW in their scam.
Lockark wrote: Kickstarter is basically venture capitalism. Sept instead of buying stake in a company to increase your equity or for a cut of profits we are getting kicknacks, sweaters and potato salad.
Some times ventures fail. That's how the world works. It's the accepted level of risk going into a kickstarter. It's not for everyone, that's OK. Some people don't like any uncertainties going into something. But that doesn't mean you get to compare ever one who is a honest user of Kickstarter a con artist.
Multiple people from this very community have ran successful Kickstarter. I'm insulted if you are suggesting they are con artists.
Risk also doesn't excuse frauds and Con men/women like thows seen here. They need to be accountable and their "feet put to the fire".
My post had nothing to do with backers. I was comparing the risk of using a casino to using Kickstarter.
Short story is, sometimes you win, and sometimes you loose.
EDIT- I can compare the people who run Kickstarter to conmen when they allowed a second project from ADW that people warned them was a scam. They sat on their hands, and refused to take action when they knew the project was suspect. That inaction is just as bad as if they had aided ADW in their scam.
Sorry Mods for the derail, I'm done.
I read your post as implying that every kick starter and it's creators are a casino ran by conmen employees. If this is not what you meant then I apologize for my reaction. Because a lot of good things have came out of kickstarter.
The implication that all kick starters are a casino stacked ageist you is a pretty bold statement that I found insulting.
At the risk of thread-bumping, I'm genuinely curious to know if there has been any movement on this - either from Kickstarter's "Integrity Team", authorities, the project creators, or a dissatisfied backer movement.
A little OT, but some explanation on how scammers scam: "They are looking for the most gullible victims they can find, to maximise return on their effort."
I made a DMCA complaint through Kickstarter. They can't be bothered to respond to it or even acknowledge i exist. I understand this is a tiny amount of money for kickstarter but how can anyone trust them when they go totally silent on this. These people used their system for theft. If they continue to allow these people to use their system to defaud backers and now banks and credit cards, that makes them accessories to the act. I am unimpressed by kickstarter here.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure these were "sculpted" by the same person as previously; it really looks like the same style. Actually, that very last bird, the one with the enormous foot who looks like he's sitting down or something, haven't we already see that somewhere? It looks awfully familiar.
It's garbage. But that's what you're buying, since "kickstarter is not a store", so you, as a consumer, have to like it. Enjoy. Free market! Yay! :eyeroll:
I have to say, those sculpts didn't come out quite as bad as they appeared from the WIPs.
Having said that, they're still nowhere near the sort of quality that would make them remotely acceptable as a commercial release. Never mind the claims of crafting a premium product...
This is absolute waste of material and insult on dire wolf.
and dont' forget, he says he's a hobby sculptor and apparently has been doing this for years...though his quality either says he's a total liar, or just extremely untalented and needs a different field for his hobby
oh yikes...things just got waaaaaaay out of line
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Aard Rinn 24 minutes ago
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