Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2014/09/29 15:58:18
Subject: Re:[Kickstarter]ADW Games Kickstarter Drama by Dina walker & Scott Lantry/ Lars
I continue to go round and round with Kickstarter.
They are claiming that they can't stop creators from contacting backers, which is total BS because the email came from "notification@kickstarter.com".
But they want me to report if any emails violate their guidelines. Not sure why, since that is exactly what I did and as far as I can tell they do nothing about it. So what would be the point?
2014/10/01 18:42:11
Subject: Re:[Kickstarter]ADW Games Kickstarter Drama by Dina walker & Scott Lantry/ Lars
Following the exchange of comments on this Kickstarter Campaign earlier in the week, Laurence Elkins, and the Company have decided to amicably and mutually part ways.
From Mr. Elkins: "It has become quite obvious that I do not have the temperament, or anger threshold level, to interact with Internet communications that turn abusive and non-social for the sake of being same. As such, I am removing myself from ADWGAMES and her KS Campaigns. Please note that none of my comments were sanctioned, condoned by ADWGAMES, and my posting on the comment section of the KS Campaign was done so without their knowledge, consent or review. I wish both the ADWGAMES team and the quiet, decent customers found on KS, the best of luck and success. And, I apologize if I let a few personal attacks from aggressive Pledgers get the best of me and diminish the quality of communication from the ADWGAMES side."
Schedule for production before Mr. Elkins left was is approximately two weeks. We currently believe it will take an extra week due to this change in talent resources. ADWGAMES apologizes for the unsupervised actions related to this series of communcations.
And right on the footsteps of that update, comes update 120
Spoiler:
Hello. This is Susan Taylor. As you know, I am handling fulfillment of this KS Campaign moving froward.
This Update is to inform you that as of last week, there has been a change in management for ADWGAMES, and subsequently, this Campaign.
We will have a significant Update of miniature photos posted on Oct. 10, 2014 and October 17, 2104, comprising, close to 100% of the miniatures and stretch goals for the Campaign.
Shortly thereafter, we will begin production and delivery.
Following the exchange of comments on this Kickstarter Campaign earlier in the week, Laurence Elkins, and the Company have decided to amicably and mutually part ways.
From Mr. Elkins: "It has become quite obvious that I do not have the temperament, or anger threshold level, to interact with Internet communications that turn abusive and non-social for the sake of being same. As such, I am removing myself from ADWGAMES and her KS Campaigns. Please note that none of my comments were sanctioned, condoned by ADWGAMES, and my posting on the comment section of the KS Campaign was done so without their knowledge, consent or review. I wish both the ADWGAMES team and the quiet, decent customers found on KS, the best of luck and success. And, I apologize if I let a few personal attacks from aggressive Pledgers get the best of me and diminish the quality of communication from the ADWGAMES side."
Schedule for production before Mr. Elkins left was is approximately two weeks. We currently believe it will take an extra week due to this change in talent resources. ADWGAMES apologizes for the unsupervised actions related to this series of communcations.
Followed by:
Spoiler:
Majour Update and Production Schedule
Hello. This is Susan Taylor. As you know, I am handling fulfillment of this KS Campaign moving froward.
This Update is to inform you that as of last week, there has been a change in management for ADWGAMES, and subsequently, this Campaign.
We will have a significant Update of miniature photos posted on Oct. 10, 2014 and October 17, 2104, comprising, close to 100% of the miniatures and stretch goals for the Campaign.
Shortly thereafter, we will begin production and delivery.
Which I guess means they'd like everyone to believe that "Lars" was "Laurence Elkins" and that anyone who works for ADW must have the inability to spell words with "or" in them. Or "Wourds" as they would spell it. Because it's not clearly 1 person with multiple personalities, not at all, no, honestly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/01 18:46:31
I thought most of the chargebacks would have occurred by this point though.
Maybe for the sea monster KS? I'd had enough of ADW to steer clear of that one, so I'm not sure how much actual delaying is going to occur through this.
Poorly lit photos of my ever- growing collection of completely unrelated models!
Can't ADW contest the chargebacks? I'm not sure, TBH.
To me, this appears to be about a strong need to be viewed as faultless, which is also evidenced by the complete inability to handle anything but fawning and adulation.
Need to be viewed as a flawless person is a symptom of several personality/psychological disorders.
I am guessing this whole thing is likely not about money, at all. More likely it is about.... playing with people's heads, and winning. Win at what, you might ask? Anything.
Ugh it makes me feel ill.
PS I am not a mental health professional, but have dealt with a lot of these types, sadly. I have very little tolerance for these types of games...
"When your only tools are duct tape and a shovel, all of life's problems start to look the same!" - kronk
"Evil will always triumph because good is dumb." - Darth Helmet
"History...is, indeed, little more than the register of the crimes, follies, and misfortune of mankind" - Edward Gibbon, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire
2014/10/01 19:43:31
Subject: [Kickstarter]ADW Games Kickstarter Drama by Dina walker & Scott Lantry/ Lars
Ketara wrote: The old bait and switch eh? It's like watching an old Mandelbaum rerun.
Man, it is indeed! It's like there's a scammers playbook...
inquisitorlewis wrote: It's a delay tactic to try to keep credit card companies off of their backs.
I agree that it is undoubtedly a delaying tactic. Changing of personnel in charge is a tried and true method, as evidenced by Defiance Games, Mandelbaum, etc etc.
2014/10/01 19:47:45
Subject: [Kickstarter]ADW Games Kickstarter Drama by Dina walker & Scott Lantry/ Lars
Pretty obviously, this update is a delaying tactic to prevent CC chargebacks. If you've followed the "What does this mean for Up Front" KS thread, once a merchant provides a statement to the cc company, it becomes harder to get your money back. And this update would explain the "provisional" refunds mentioned in the IAKS comments.
To add to the fun...the address given for Weaver, Chester, and Tweed is 228 Park Avenue South, New York, NY 10003. I had a friend stop by and she sent me the photo now included in Aard's google doc.
I just did a reverse image search on the photo they use on their contact page and it is Collins Court, in Halifax, Nova Scotia. The photo was stolen off a pro photographer's web site.
Guys, I'd like to ask for a full refund. Unfortunately, I paid my $125+shipping with a pre-paid card. Anyone knows how I can file a dispute? It's a paypal Mastercard. Thanks.
I thought I would jump back in here to recap. I was sent an inept threatening email and I countered and told them to serve me. I also requested that they give me a valid address where I can serve them. I also have filed a DMCA complaint with Kickstarter to defend my intellectual property. I want all of you to know, they will not scare me off. I own the rights to this, they cannot do anything to touch me or Hearth Stone.
Thanks
Scott
Stay on your CC companies. Start insisting they investigate for fraud. If you feel they don't do a satisfactory investigation, call the BBB and report the CC company.
They offer fraud protection for a reason. Hold them to it.
2014/10/02 16:48:10
Subject: [Kickstarter]ADW Games Kickstarter Drama by Dina walker & Scott Lantry/ Lars
Sirithiliel wrote: Check out the latest update...lol...copy/paste from wikipedia and lots of puffing and blowing hot air, I think
I really feel bad for everyone that got scammed by these idiots. That being said, I am really enjoying watching this "company" crash, burn, rerise, and crash and burn again. What a bunch (or one) of nuts.
BTW I would be mighty tempted to donate to a KS helping with legal fees, if Hearth Stone should need to go that direction.
2014/10/02 17:08:39
Subject: Re:[Kickstarter]ADW Games Kickstarter Drama by Dina walker & Scott Lantry/ Lars
This is... adorable. They're like squealing toddlers. Didn't realize that scamming hundreds of people just meant there were hundreds of people to frigging hunt you down, did they?
Also, I'm working on an official list of grievances for this KS. So far I've got -
hidden & falsified identities
misrepresented their location to prevent legal action
threatened customers phyically by looking up their houses and writing menacing comments about them (this is, according to my professors, a form of threat that can be basis for a restraining order)
represented their product falsely to consumers, using concept art and sculpts that they had not paid for and did not own
replaced quality product for which we paid with low-quality sculpts below even the lowest standards of the industry, without offering a refund to discontent customers
failed pay sculptors and artists for products to the detriment of customers, to the effect that we will not be getting the sculpts we pledged for due to this failure to pay.
attacked reaper and her customers, slandering the name of a respected member of the industry.
Any additional ideas? I'm writing it up with the help of one of my professors, so while the final list may not have many letters after my name, it should be good enough for sending to people like the Attorney General.
I will also contact the owners of the art used in the Sea Monsters KS and some of the later IAM goals to let them know their art is being used on a scam page. Maybe some of them would be interested in a DCMA takedown request, especially the people who's art was to be "concepts" for sculpts, in light of these new legal threats...
2014/10/02 17:08:42
Subject: Re:[Kickstarter]ADW Games Kickstarter Drama by Dina walker & Scott Lantry/ Lars
Here's the update... this is a piece of work. Spoilered because the copypasta is really long.
Spoiler:
NOTICE TO PLEDGERS OF IAM RE: COPYRIGHT, TRADEMARK AND TRADE SECRET INFRINGEMENT
20 comments
[From Susan Taylor]
NOTICE TO PLEDGERS OF IAM OF COPYRIGHT, TRADEMARK AND TRADE SECRET INFRINGEMENT
After reading posts from the comment section and several outside sources, it has come to my attention that there are several issues that need to be directly and immediately addressed regarding ADWGAMES and the IAM KS Campaign. And, as is typical of internet posts that require no validation, most of the facts that have been presented by third-parties are wrong.
Here are the facts:
1. "Ice Age Mammals" is a miniature property and owns common law trademark that is verified through the KS Campaign itself. Specifically, this includes "Terror Birds" and the specific, illustrated IAM offered in the KS Campaign as they specifically relate to the world of miniatures. This IP has belonged to the Company well in advance of any KS Campaign, and is defined by the actual instantiation and application of the extinct animals in a particular context, i.e., as miniatures for games and collectibles and as a part of a fictional world, Doggerland;
2. One (of four) sculptors was hired by the company under a contract agreement which specified that The "Sculptor" would deliver, over the course of her employment, sculpts of IAM mammals, for which The "Sculptor" was provided extensive reference art and coaching by ADW staff. At no point was the "Sculptor", or any artist, a Partner of the Company or KS, nor or Co-Creator of the IAM IP. Furthermore, no employee has IP rights assigned to them if they simply choose to quit and steal same. The employment contracts were extensive and explicit in outlining trade secrets, duties, requirements, obligations, the non transfer of rights and non-invention by the contracted employee.
Now, regarding this "Sculptor":
The "Sculptor" was unemployed when The "Sculptor" answered the ad for ADW.
The "Sculptor" has no history working in game miniatures.
The "Sculptor" has no history of having sculpted animals.
The "Sculptor" started a competing company the day the IAM met its KS goal.
The "Sculptor" and certain "Pledgers" for the IAM KS Campaign are using all of the extinct animal IP for the miniature/game industry in a new, competing enterprise. (That is like starting a Dungeon and Dragons company, called Dungeons and Dragons, once a minor artist on the team saw the first investment come in the door.)
There has been chatter about a "con". The above provides the outline of the true "con" game.
To the specifics of the breach in contract and the intent to defraud the KS Pledgers and the KS Campaign:
1. No sculpts were handed into ADW at any time- which was breach of the "Sculptor's" contract ;
2. No time cards were handed into ADW at any time- which was breach of the "Sculptor's" contract;
3. Once the IAM KS was met its goal the "Sculptor" "quit" the company, again, without handing in a single sculpt, and after having misappropriated $1000 in materials from the company- which was breach of the "Sculptor's" contract and, as we will see, much more;
4. The "Sculptor" immediately started a competing company began contacting IAM Pledgers to purchase from her and to undermine ADW-which was breach of the "Sculptor's" contract, and, again, as we will see, much more;
5. The "Sculptor" continued to contact all ADW vendors, Business Partners and Pledgers for Band of Gnomes, including Andrea Sfilgoloi who breached his contract to publish Band of Gnomes and chose to encourage and support the actions of the which was breach of the "Sculptor" while The "Sculptor" endeavoured to - which was breach of contract and tortuous interference on the "Sculptor's" part;
6. The "Sculptor" teamed up with Andrea Sfigoloi, who suggested they The "Sculptor" change her name, and a Hearthstone miniatures to offer the exact miniatures that The "Sculptor" refused to hand into IAM while under contract - which is copyright infringement, trademark infringement and trade secret appropriation. (see, below)
7. The "Sculptor" chose to cover her intent and tracks with ad hominem attacks against the KS team and individuals on the team, as did the Pledgers the "Sculptor" contacted to support the activities. The intent, as we see it, was for a failing sculptor with no career to pretend to join a company in order to study their product and instantly knock it off if the KS was successful. With a handful of Pledgers, it seems as if The "Sculptor" is momentarily successful in stealing the intellectual property that is the registered and validated property of a U.S. Company. What The "Sculptor", and the few Pledgers who are "siding" with her actions, fails to understand is that her actions, and the actions of the Pledgers, are in violation of civil and criminal law, and a violation of the goodwill of the common Pledgers who supported the IAM KS in good faith.
To wit:
Copyright infringement is reproducing, distributing, displaying or performing a work, or to make derivative works, without permission from the copyright holder, which is typically a published or other business representing or assigned by the work's creator. It is often called "piracy".[45] While copyright is created the instance a work is fixed, generally the copyright holder can only get money damages if the owner registers the copyright. Enforcement of copyright is generally the responsibility of the copyright holder.[46] The ACTA trade agreement, signed in May 2011 by the United States, Japan, Switzerland, and the EU, requires that its parties add criminal penalties, including incarceration and fines, for copyright and trademark infringement, and obligated the parties to active police for infringement.[47][48] There is a safe harbor to use copyrighted works under the fair use doctrine.
Trademark infringement occurs when one party uses a trademark that is identical or confusingly similar to a trademark owned by another party, in relation to products or services which are identical or similar to the products or services of the other party. As with copyright, there are common law rights protecting a trademark, but registering a trademark provides legal advantages for enforcement. Infringement can be addressed by civil litigation and, in several jurisdictions, under criminal law. In the United States, the Trademark Counterfeiting Act of 1984 criminalized the intentional trade in counterfeit goods and services and ACTA amplified the penalties.[47][48]
Trade secret misappropriation is different from violations of other intellectual property laws, since by definition trade secrets are secret, while patents and registered copyrights and trademarks are publicly available. In the United States, trade secrets are protected under state law, and states have nearly universally adopted the Uniform Trade Secrets Act. The United States also has federal law in the form of the Economic Espionage Act of 1996 (18 U.S.C. §§ 1831–1839), which makes the theft or misappropriation of a trade secret a federal crime. This law contains two provisions criminalizing two sorts of activity. The first, 18 U.S.C. § 1831(a), criminalizes the theft of trade secrets to benefit foreign powers. The second, 18 U.S.C. § 1832, criminalizes their theft for commercial or economic purposes. (The statutory penalties are different for the two offenses.) In Commonwealth common law jurisdictions, confidentiality and trade secrets are regarded as an equitable right rather than a property right but penalties for theft are roughly the same as the United States.
At this point in time, we are seeking to protect the Company, her original creatives and holders of the IP, and those who Pledged in good faith. In addition, we are investigating our legal options regarding those Pledgers that have contacted and supported the "Sculptor". We will be taking all legal action available against any and all parties that have violated the intellectual property rights of ADWGAMES, or have libeled ADWGAMES in an effort to promote the sale of stolen property from same.
Thankfully, this process is assisted by the fact that the parties involved have proudly announced (on public forums and via direct email to myself) that they are taking over the IP of ADW and that they have no concern for the rule of law governing same.
I would have hoped that the community would have come down on the side of the creator- which in this case is ADWGAMES, and while the majourity have, we are shocked and dismayed that a select few are supporting, and comprising a team, that are not only willfully and blatantly infringing on the rights of the team that did create the IAM IP, but are casually dismissing the U.S. and international laws that protect the creators and owners of intellectual property.
As such, we are looking into all legal remedies offered by the law, as outlined, above, regarding all parties mentioned above, for this truly horrifying turn of events, and extreme violation of the public trust.
Why bring this up now?
Illegal activity of this sort just causes delays for the Campaign rewards and diminish the protections for all creatives, be they writers or programmers or independent business people, and it certainly effects all future KS Campaigners, that may seek to develop their own IP in the future.
As the legal proceedings move forward, we will keep you informed.
Note: this in no way effects ADWGAMES commitment to fulfill on the IAM Campaign. At most, it unnecessarily and unreasonably has slowed down the process. And, we remain committed to delivering to those Pledgers whose trust has been violated by the actions of those who have devoted their conscious actions to COPYRIGHT, TRADEMARK AND TRADE SECRET INFRINGEMENT .
We look forward to a satisfying resolution to this matter in the very near future and to providing you with the miniatures and content that were developed by the core team many years ago.
"When your only tools are duct tape and a shovel, all of life's problems start to look the same!" - kronk
"Evil will always triumph because good is dumb." - Darth Helmet
"History...is, indeed, little more than the register of the crimes, follies, and misfortune of mankind" - Edward Gibbon, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire
2014/10/02 17:10:43
Subject: [Kickstarter]ADW Games Kickstarter Drama by Dina walker & Scott Lantry/ Lars
I am so flattered and humbled by your offer. I doubt that will ever be necesary. I highly doubt these people can show up in a court room. I can't believe how awesome people have been through this whole thing. Oddly, this has greatly renewed my faith in humanity. Every one of you has been great. Thank you so much.
2014/10/02 17:23:59
Subject: [Kickstarter]ADW Games Kickstarter Drama by Dina walker & Scott Lantry/ Lars
hearthstoneminis wrote: I am so flattered and humbled by your offer. I doubt that will ever be necesary. I highly doubt these people can show up in a court room. I can't believe how awesome people have been through this whole thing. Oddly, this has greatly renewed my faith in humanity. Every one of you has been great. Thank you so much.
I think we've all just seen it before. If Daniel Mandelbaum, Defiance, and to a much lesser extent, Maelstrom hadn't occurred, we'd probably be a bit more forgiving. But as RiTides said earlier, its almost like there's a scammer's handbook when it comes to trying to take people's money and not give anything back, and we've documented all the tricks in it over the years.
Are you in trouble? Are people starting to suspect that your scam is a con, and you haven't exceeded the chargeback time limit? Buy our book today, and learn how to:
-Avoid registering your business,
-Change the person in charge of the company,
-Attribute a delay to 'personal reasons (both unspecified and medical emergencies),
-Write intimidating threats of litigation,
-Find a usable PO box address for your company,
-Talk it out on the phone with unsatisfied targets instead of risking leaving a potentially incriminating paper trail,
-Dodge all questions (like politicians do!)
Simply sign up to our kickstarter on www.kickstarter.com/scammingsconsformugs and receive a hundred dollars free today!*
*hundred dollars only payable after 180 day period and after payment of fifty dollar processing fee
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/02 17:25:03
2014/10/02 17:25:09
Subject: Re:[Kickstarter]ADW Games Kickstarter Drama by Dina walker & Scott Lantry/ Lars
Contractual obligations are a two-way street, though of course the actual terms of the contract would be pretty critical to any dispute.
If the contract consisted of the contents of the email shown above, those allegations are pretty laughable. If Hearthstone Miniatures does get stuck in a legal dispute, or would like to consult an attorney about these IP and contractual issues, I recommend contacting a local organization that provides legal support to artists, such as Lawyers for the Creative Arts or Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts.
Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
2014/10/02 17:32:22
Subject: [Kickstarter]ADW Games Kickstarter Drama by Dina walker & Scott Lantry/ Lars
Consideration is one of the single most important part of a contract. Without it there is no longer an agreement. The agreement is contingent on consideration and the artists were never paid. I've talked to a lawyer about this. I'm pretty safe as I am acting in good faith. Should I be ordered by a judge to do something I will comply but until then everything is bluster.
2014/10/02 17:36:45
Subject: Re:[Kickstarter]ADW Games Kickstarter Drama by Dina walker & Scott Lantry/ Lars
weeble1000 wrote: If the contract consisted of the contents of the email shown above, those allegations are pretty laughable. If Hearthstone Miniatures does get stuck in a legal dispute, or would like to consult an attorney about these IP and contractual issues, I recommend contacting a local organization that provides legal support to artists, such as Lawyers for the Creative Arts or Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts.
Good work!
Does any of this legal support exist in the Montreal Quebec area, or support museums? I don't get why these scammers haven't just disappeared from KS. If they've stolen 60K from an artist, their actions on KS don't make sense. I'm going with the "part of a larger scheme" idea for now.
I am glad the community goes out of its way to expose issues and support those who have been scammed. Dakka never forgets!
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
2014/10/02 19:23:18
Subject: [Kickstarter]ADW Games Kickstarter Drama by Dina walker & Scott Lantry/ Lars