The Imperium is technologically backwards. It's magic to them and they don't know how any of it really works. Not even the AdMech who trains the the Tech Marines. They operate machines in a very religious way that involves prayer and candles. These prayers are usually instructions with a religious bent but the point is that Imperials do not understand technology least of all computers. Sure, the AdMech could study Earth's OS like they do with other foreign tech they find and figure it out but this is a process that takes the most technologically literate decades. Tech Marines will not learn how to hack us quickly. Most likely they'll never figure it out at all.

 TheCustomLime wrote:


The Imperium is technologically backwards. It's magic to them and they don't know how any of it really works. Not even the AdMech who trains the the Tech Marines. They operate machines in a very religious way that involves prayer and candles. These prayers are usually instructions with a religious bent but the point is that Imperials do not understand technology least of all computers. Sure, the AdMech could study Earth's OS like they do with other foreign tech they find and figure it out but this is a process that takes the most technologically literate decades. Tech Marines will not learn how to hack us quickly. Most likely they'll never figure it out at all.

Yeah, they'll never figure out mac or windows. Mhm, never. After all, that's how the Imperium was able to conquer millions of worlds, fumbling about with lowly mac and windows computers.

1) The Imperium is not backwards in the computing department, their tech is hilariously better than ours, and I have to laugh at you for even thinking for a second that a civilization that has to coordinate massive ships with fusion reactors managed by powerful AI's is worse off than ours.

2) Techmarines can hack anything short Eldar. The IOM would easily strip through out computers, given that a Techmarine was able to hack Necron tech. They're far, faaaar beyond us, and the idea that the Imperium is more primitive than us is both unfounded and completely unsupported.

It's not that our technology is somehow better. It's that it's different from Imperial tech. I don't see how any Imperial, unless they were hereteks, could learn about computers with differing architecture than their own because they don't even understand how their own computers work. They don't know how any computer works. A Tech Marine is just an AdMech member with a fancier set of organs and while they certainly know how to craft and repair their stuff they don't know how any of it works. No one does. If they did they wouldn't need the STCs so bad.

And that scene where the Tech Marine hacks Necron stuff is as bad as that one scene from Armageddon where the plucky heroes insert the virus into the alien mothership.

Um.....wow. "Most likely they'll never figure it out at all" makes no sense at all whatsoever. You think super humans that are about 38,000 years in the future won't figure out how to hack us? Just.....whatever. Lol.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
It's not that our technology is somehow better. It's that it's different from Imperial tech. I don't see how any Imperial, unless they were hereteks, could learn about computers with differing architecture than their own because they don't even understand how their own computers work. They don't know how any computer works. A Tech Marine is just an AdMech member with a fancier set of organs and while they certainly know how to craft and repair their stuff they don't know how any of it works. No one does. If they did they wouldn't need the STCs so bad.

And that scene where the Tech Marine hacks Necron stuff is as bad as that one scene from Armageddon where the plucky heroes insert the virus into the alien mothership.

Of course the Imperium knows how their own computers work. Now your just reaching. The STC's are there to preserve what they have. I'm afraid you have no idea how it works. How would the IOM know how to go about fighting eldar, necrons and such when they have no idea how their own systems work? That's just irrational thinking.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
It's not that our technology is somehow better. It's that it's different from Imperial tech. I don't see how any Imperial, unless they were hereteks, could learn about computers with differing architecture than their own because they don't even understand how their own computers work. They don't know how any computer works. A Tech Marine is just an AdMech member with a fancier set of organs and while they certainly know how to craft and repair their stuff they don't know how any of it works. No one does. If they did they wouldn't need the STCs so bad.

And that scene where the Tech Marine hacks Necron stuff is as bad as that one scene from Armageddon where the plucky heroes insert the virus into the alien mothership.

They do know how most of their technology works, machine spirits aren't bs, they're quite real and unless pleased can do some incredibly horrible things to you. For the Imperium repairing their technology isn't as simple as switching out a new motherboard- they have to appease the AI inside it lest it refuse to work or turn on them. Especially with Starships, Titans, and relic vehicles like baneblades, which have intelligences on par, if not surpassing that of a human.

Plus again, anything lower than Necrons is fair game for the Imperium. They'd easily jam all of our communications.

This is the Imperium. They don't understand their own technology, and trying to push the boundaries of knowledge (you know, science) is heresy. Cyberwarfare is not something they are really capable of, and it's also not something they would care about, either (leave that to the foul xenos). The Imperium is all about brute force, and their own technology is magic to them. I mean, seriously - they regard their own computers as mystical thinking devices powered by spirits.

EDIT: Jamming is on a completely different level to hijacking, Wyzilla.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
It's not that our technology is somehow better. It's that it's different from Imperial tech. I don't see how any Imperial, unless they were hereteks, could learn about computers with differing architecture than their own because they don't even understand how their own computers work. They don't know how any computer works. A Tech Marine is just an AdMech member with a fancier set of organs and while they certainly know how to craft and repair their stuff they don't know how any of it works. No one does. If they did they wouldn't need the STCs so bad.

And that scene where the Tech Marine hacks Necron stuff is as bad as that one scene from Armageddon where the plucky heroes insert the virus into the alien mothership.

Of course the Imperium knows how their own computers work. Now your just reaching. The STC's are there to preserve what they have. I'm afraid you have no idea how it works. How would the IOM know how to go about fighting eldar, necrons and such when they have no idea how their own systems work? That's just irrational thinking.

They know that if they recite the litany of activation and appease the machine spirit within by activating the proper runes in order that their computer will turn on. In other words, they know how to operate their stuff but they don't know how it functions. A Tech Marine knows how to repair a Plasma Gun but doesn't actually understand it's inner workings. The STCs are needed because that's the only way they can get new stuff and get the old stuff back. Once the machinery to manufacture an item is gone the item is gone because the AdMech didn't know on what principles the item operated. It's why whenever the Imperium does innovate it's usually by cross referencing STCs with each other to see what would work with what.

Maybe I was being a little hyperbolic. I am sure the AdMech does sort of understand how their technology works (I.E. these kind of wheels propel the treads forward so therefore wheels of a certain kind are needed for tanks) but not to any meaningful degree. And certainly not to the point where they can apply principles from their own stuff to other foreign technology.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
This is the Imperium. They don't understand their own technology, and trying to push the boundaries of knowledge (you know, science) is heresy. Cyberwarfare is not something they are really capable of, and it's also not something they would care about, either (leave that to the foul xenos). The Imperium is all about brute force, and their own technology is magic to them. I mean, seriously - they regard their own computers as mystical thinking devices powered by spirits.

EDIT: Jamming is on a completely different level to hijacking, Wyzilla.

They can't explore to far into science but by all means they need to know a decent amount of technical knowledge or they don't stand a chance.

Like, I am seriously rolling on the floor laughing at you right now. "They dont know their own technology" pleeeeeease


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
It's not that our technology is somehow better. It's that it's different from Imperial tech. I don't see how any Imperial, unless they were hereteks, could learn about computers with differing architecture than their own because they don't even understand how their own computers work. They don't know how any computer works. A Tech Marine is just an AdMech member with a fancier set of organs and while they certainly know how to craft and repair their stuff they don't know how any of it works. No one does. If they did they wouldn't need the STCs so bad.

And that scene where the Tech Marine hacks Necron stuff is as bad as that one scene from Armageddon where the plucky heroes insert the virus into the alien mothership.

Of course the Imperium knows how their own computers work. Now your just reaching. The STC's are there to preserve what they have. I'm afraid you have no idea how it works. How would the IOM know how to go about fighting eldar, necrons and such when they have no idea how their own systems work? That's just irrational thinking.

They know that if they recite the litany of activation and appease the machine spirit within by activating the proper runes in order that their computer will turn on. In other words, they know how to operate their stuff but they don't know how it functions. A Tech Marine knows how to repair a Plasma Gun but doesn't actually understand it's inner workings. The STCs are needed because that's the only way they can get new stuff and get the old stuff back. Once the machinery to manufacture an item is gone the item is gone because the AdMech didn't know on what principles the item operated. It's why whenever the Imperium does innovate it's usually by cross referencing STCs with each other to see what would work with what.

Maybe I was being a little hyperbolic. I am sure the AdMech does sort of understand how their technology works (I.E. these kind of wheels propel the treads forward so therefore wheels of a certain kind are needed for tanks) but not to any meaningful degree. And certainly not to the point where they can apply principles from their own stuff to other foreign technology.

Yeah, the IOM deals with a lot more difficult technologies than earth. Trust me they come to earth they will laugh at the things we got here. They will crack up in uncontrollable laughter

The 6th Ed Rule book sez:

"In many respects, it is a time of superstition in which great and unfathomable technology has been enslaved to the forces of mysticism and madness. To the ordinary humans of these times, the peasants and the warriors amongst the stars, scientific thought represents an abhorrent perversity, a corruption of honor and religious virtue. Even to those humans who deal with the material of technology, science and magic have became largely inseparable; the Warp engine must have runes upon its side and the lasgun requires the blessing of the Emperor or the Omnissiah".
(-Page 162)

No. They don't know how their stuff works. They can blow up our cities. They can jam our communications, knock our satellites out of the sky and make sure that not a single transmission is ever sent on Earth again. But they cannot hack our computers because that would require them to know how computers function in general.

 Ashiraya wrote:


This... This is not really something the Marines are unique in, though. All factions share this.

Right, and I've never said it doesn't apply to other factions, but Marines, by dint of their tiny numbers and intense focus, are perhaps amongst the most apparent.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Ok, you are a broken record by now.

Because people keep throwing out the same arguments and forgetting the practical matters...

Look, SM's have detection methods and radar technology you cant comprehend.

Such as?

They can hack into our defense mainframes, hack into our networks and and litterally jack our satellites.

Since when?

And exactly which marines are such experts in electronic warfare? The couple tech marines a Chapter has that also somehow have to not only maintain and repair but also often produce their weapons, tanks, armor, ships, ordnance, dreadnoughts, etc?

With our networks seized they will scan all military assets worldwideexpunge any information they want while at the same time downloading anything they need. They will find out our most advanced weapons and technology, how much of each piece of technology we possess, uncover classified military operations and more. With collected information they will use our very own satellites to locate anything they please. They will assess military outposts, research facilities and command structures worldwide. After enough information has been collected they will commence negotiations, which...we will assume fail considering Earth isnt going to worship an Emperor they've never heard of or met.

Yes, sort through billions of computer systems (not to mention untold millions of interconnected, or closed, networks) with no idea as to how their network architecture or security is constructed, and magically sort and analyze it all in what, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months? You're talking billions of gigabytes of information in thousands of different formats. How would they know if they're looking at encrypted military deployment plans or Transformers movie animation data (especially if they have no clue what the different file formats are)?

Since when was this a thing that Space Marines do? What Space Marines would be doing this?

We've had a few instances of Astartes (actually Chaos marines as far as I can remember) using viruses (with some sort of heretical/warp bent to them) to attack (usually destroy) electronic systems, but nothing like what you're talking about here where they're doing large scale data-mining and electronic capture.

I can't recall any Astartes campaign that used electronic warfare and electronic information theft to such a degree, especially anything post-heresy/non-Alpha Legion/Iron Warriors-ey. Granted I haven't read *every* *single* GW/BL book out there, but I've read every codex, every FW book, many BL books and most 40k video games, and I cannot cannot recall SM's doing anything on the scale you're talking about here.

SM's will drop continental bombs, ravaging every continent on planet earth.

Ok yes they can destroy the planet, it's not like we don't have a dozen nations on earth that can do that too.

After which 1,000 fully armed and armored superhumans will strike at the most valuable enemy positions

So, assuming they manage to disable a whole bunch of computer networks and whatnot and find whatever the most valuable command centers are, and finding out there's hundreds of them, they're gonna toss like 5 dudes at each?

What's your estimate of the protective capability of Astartes armor relative to steel? We know that are very hard to kill with smaller weapons, like 5.56mm assault rifles. Ok, fine. We do know however that the can be killed by weapons like bolters, mortars, and heavy stubbers, weapons which we have direct equivalents to today. Lets say this is equivalent to the armor of say, a BMP IFV. ~33mm of steel. Well, there's a huge number of commonly available weapons that will penetrate that pretty easily.

Even if you want to bulk it up to something absurd, say 200mm (about the same protective capabilities as the frontal armor of a T-62 tank's turret), we have 60 year old RPG's that are distributed by the millions and spread throughout the world that'll still put a superheated jet of molten metal through a Space Marine. Bulk it up past the absurd and into the ludicrous, say 500mm? Newer (i.e. the last 20/30 years) RPG's will still penetrate that and modern tank cannon HEAT rounds will go through and through (1000mm).

As such, 1000 dudes would get worn down quite quickly, even by relatively disorganized and depleted forces, and could be put down in days if not hours by a coherent and organized defense.

eliminating enemy command structures one by one. They will strike faster than lightning and hit harder than an earthquake before being picked up to be resupplied and deployed to their next location... So forget about getting armored devisions and infantry regiments in any kind of tactically sound manoeuvres.

Impressive adjectives aside, this assumes that such formations need higher commands to operate, they could continue to operate locally just fine, and if not engaged quickly, will probably rebuild their command structure in short order. And 1000 marines just can't hit that many targets fast enough to make a difference here.

The SM's will also have the advantage of the enemy having no idea where they will be hit next. Considering their are 7 dazzled continents with no sense of direction.

Even assuming all electronic networks are taken over and/or disabled, there's lots of non-networked detection arrays. SM's taking control of the world's computer systems aren't going to stop radio traffic or independent radar installations. If armies could coordinate and detect aircraft and moving forces without computers 50 years ago, it's not impossible to do so again. The whole of WW2 was fought without satellites or computer systems or networks and they managed to detect aircraft, react to landings, etc.

 Wyzilla wrote:


1) The Imperium is not backwards in the computing department, their tech is hilariously better than ours, and I have to laugh at you for even thinking for a second that a civilization that has to coordinate massive ships with fusion reactors managed by powerful AI's is worse off than ours.

That same civilization that needs slave chain gangs to turn the turrets onto their targets and to reload between salvos? And since when are they managed by "powerful AI's"? Are we just calling computer programs in general "AI"? Because actively conscious thinking machines are banned in the Imperium.

2) Techmarines can hack anything short Eldar. The IOM would easily strip through out computers, given that a Techmarine was able to hack Necron tech. They're far, faaaar beyond us, and the idea that the Imperium is more primitive than us is both unfounded and completely unsupported.

Those same (very few) dudes that have to maintain, build, and repair anything mechanical that the Chapter possesses? They're mechanics and mechanical engineers, not electronic systems wizards. I can't find a single instance of Techmarines being involved in the kind of cyber-infiltration and attack that is being described here.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

They can't explore to far into science but by all means they need to know a decent amount of technical knowledge or they don't stand a chance.

Except they literally don't know how many things work. That's a pretty big constant in the 40k universe. They know how to put them together, but they don't know why they actually do what they do. Or, in other cases, such knowledge is held by so few as to functionally be the same thing.

Like, I am seriously rolling on the floor laughing at you right now. "They dont know their own technology" pleeeeeease

I'm wondering if we're actually both talking about the Warhammer 40,000 universe, because instance of the Imperium having absolutely no clue how certain things work is...*VERY* common.

Yeah, the IOM deals with a lot more difficult technologies than earth. Trust me they come to earth they will laugh at the things we got here. They will crack up in uncontrollable laughter

Except we already have things that are far beyond the capabilities of the Imperium. We have battle tanks that can move at 60km/h and hit a target moving at the same speed at 2000m+ with 95% accuracy. We have aircraft capable of engaging multiple targets simultaneously from dozens, sometimes hundreds, of miles away. We have artillery that can hit targets at 20/30/50+ kilometers and land within 2-5 meters with 90%+ success rates.

Again, the 40k universe isn't one that really works or makes any sense. It's Swords and Sorcery in Space. Comparing it to anything realistic makes it fall apart.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:


This... This is not really something the Marines are unique in, though. All factions share this.

Right, and I've never said it doesn't apply to other factions, but Marines, by dint of their tiny numbers and intense focus, are perhaps amongst the most apparent.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Ok, you are a broken record by now.

Because people keep throwing out the same arguments and forgetting the practical matters...

Look, SM's have detection methods and radar technology you cant comprehend.

Such as?

They can hack into our defense mainframes, hack into our networks and and litterally jack our satellites.

Since when?

And exactly which marines are such experts in electronic warfare? The couple tech marines a Chapter has that also somehow have to not only maintain and repair but also often produce their weapons, tanks, armor, ships, ordnance, dreadnoughts, etc?

With our networks seized they will scan all military assets worldwideexpunge any information they want while at the same time downloading anything they need. They will find out our most advanced weapons and technology, how much of each piece of technology we possess, uncover classified military operations and more. With collected information they will use our very own satellites to locate anything they please. They will assess military outposts, research facilities and command structures worldwide. After enough information has been collected they will commence negotiations, which...we will assume fail considering Earth isnt going to worship an Emperor they've never heard of or met.

Yes, sort through billions of computer systems (not to mention untold millions of interconnected, or closed, networks) with no idea as to how their network architecture or security is constructed, and magically sort and analyze it all in what, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months? You're talking billions of gigabytes of information in thousands of different formats. How would they know if they're looking at encrypted military deployment plans or Transformers movie animation data (especially if they have no clue what the different file formats are)?

Since when was this a thing that Space Marines do? What Space Marines would be doing this?

We've had a few instances of Astartes (actually Chaos marines as far as I can remember) using viruses (with some sort of heretical/warp bent to them) to attack (usually destroy) electronic systems, but nothing like what you're talking about here where they're doing large scale data-mining and electronic capture.

I can't recall any Astartes campaign that used electronic warfare and electronic information theft to such a degree, especially anything post-heresy/non-Alpha Legion/Iron Warriors-ey. Granted I haven't read *every* *single* GW/BL book out there, but I've read every codex, every FW book, many BL books and most 40k video games, and I cannot cannot recall SM's doing anything on the scale you're talking about here.

SM's will drop continental bombs, ravaging every continent on planet earth.

Ok yes they can destroy the planet, it's not like we don't have a dozen nations on earth that can do that too.

After which 1,000 fully armed and armored superhumans will strike at the most valuable enemy positions

So, assuming they manage to disable a whole bunch of computer networks and whatnot and find whatever the most valuable command centers are, and finding out there's hundreds of them, they're gonna toss like 5 dudes at each?

What's your estimate of the protective capability of Astartes armor relative to steel? We know that are very hard to kill with smaller weapons, like 5.56mm assault rifles. Ok, fine. We do know however that the can be killed by weapons like bolters, mortars, and heavy stubbers, weapons which we have direct equivalents to today. Lets say this is equivalent to the armor of say, a BMP IFV. ~33mm of steel. Well, there's a huge number of commonly available weapons that will penetrate that pretty easily.

Even if you want to bulk it up to something absurd, say 200mm (about the same protective capabilities as the frontal armor of a T-62 tank's turret), we have 60 year old RPG's that are distributed by the millions and spread throughout the world that'll still put a superheated jet of molten metal through a Space Marine. Bulk it up past the absurd and into the ludicrous, say 500mm? Newer (i.e. the last 20/30 years) RPG's will still penetrate that and modern tank cannon HEAT rounds will go through and through (1000mm).

As such, 1000 dudes would get worn down quite quickly, even by relatively disorganized and depleted forces, and could be put down in days if not hours by a coherent and organized defense.

eliminating enemy command structures one by one. They will strike faster than lightning and hit harder than an earthquake before being picked up to be resupplied and deployed to their next location... So forget about getting armored devisions and infantry regiments in any kind of tactically sound manoeuvres.

Impressive adjectives aside, this assumes that such formations need higher commands to operate, they could continue to operate locally just fine, and if not engaged quickly, will probably rebuild their command structure in short order. And 1000 marines just can't hit that many targets fast enough to make a difference here.

The SM's will also have the advantage of the enemy having no idea where they will be hit next. Considering their are 7 dazzled continents with no sense of direction.

Even assuming all electronic networks are taken over and/or disabled, there's lots of non-networked detection arrays. SM's taking control of the world's computer systems aren't going to stop radio traffic or independent radar installations. If armies could coordinate and detect aircraft and moving forces without computers 50 years ago, it's not impossible to do so again. The whole of WW2 was fought without satellites or computer systems or networks and they managed to detect aircraft, react to landings, etc.

 Wyzilla wrote:


1) The Imperium is not backwards in the computing department, their tech is hilariously better than ours, and I have to laugh at you for even thinking for a second that a civilization that has to coordinate massive ships with fusion reactors managed by powerful AI's is worse off than ours.

That same civilization that needs slave chain gangs to turn the turrets onto their targets and to reload between salvos? And since when are they managed by "powerful AI's"? Are we just calling computer programs in general "AI"? Because actively conscious thinking machines are banned in the Imperium.

2) Techmarines can hack anything short Eldar. The IOM would easily strip through out computers, given that a Techmarine was able to hack Necron tech. They're far, faaaar beyond us, and the idea that the Imperium is more primitive than us is both unfounded and completely unsupported.

Those same (very few) dudes that have to maintain, build, and repair anything mechanical that the Chapter possesses? They're mechanics and mechanical engineers, not electronic systems wizards. I can't find a single instance of Techmarines being involved in the kind of cyber-infiltration and attack that is being described here.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

They can't explore to far into science but by all means they need to know a decent amount of technical knowledge or they don't stand a chance.

Except they literally don't know how many things work. That's a pretty big constant in the 40k universe. They know how to put them together, but they don't know why they actually do what they do. Or, in other cases, such knowledge is held by so few as to functionally be the same thing.

Like, I am seriously rolling on the floor laughing at you right now. "They dont know their own technology" pleeeeeease

I'm wondering if we're actually both talking about the Warhammer 40,000 universe, because instance of the Imperium having absolutely no clue how certain things work is...*VERY* common.

Yeah, the IOM deals with a lot more difficult technologies than earth. Trust me they come to earth they will laugh at the things we got here. They will crack up in uncontrollable laughter

Except we already have things that are far beyond the capabilities of the Imperium. We have battle tanks that can move at 60km/h and hit a target moving at the same speed at 2000m+ with 95% accuracy. We have aircraft capable of engaging multiple targets simultaneously from dozens, sometimes hundreds, of miles away. We have artillery that can hit targets at 20/30/50+ kilometers and land within 2-5 meters with 90%+ success rates.

Again, the 40k universe isn't one that really works or makes any sense. It's Swords and Sorcery in Space. Comparing it to anything realistic makes it fall apart.

Yeah, whatever Im done here. Go about living in your absurd fantasy

Absurd fantasy. That's a very apt description of 40k and I'll gladly enjoy it! For all of it's strange numbers, illogical tactics and goofy concepts.

Though I always thought the "They don't know how their tech works" was a cool aspect of the setting.

"Yeah, whatever Im done here. Go about living in your absurd fantasy"

Haha... I think we anti "Space Marines are ultimate gods" guys are the ones using reality to crush your fantasy dude.

You should be saying "let me live in my fantasy and keep reality out of it!"

Remember rule #1, you two.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
"Yeah, whatever Im done here. Go about living in your absurd fantasy"

Haha... I think we anti "Space Marines are ultimate gods" guys are the ones using reality to crush your fantasy dude.

You should be saying "let me live in my fantasy and keep reality out of it!"

Nobody here said a SM was a god. Take your idiocy elsewhere

I was exaggerating... not much but still

text removed.


Reds8n

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:


This... This is not really something the Marines are unique in, though. All factions share this.

Right, and I've never said it doesn't apply to other factions, but Marines, by dint of their tiny numbers and intense focus, are perhaps amongst the most apparent.

What about Tyranids? Thanks to thermodynamics they do not even work in theory, like, at all.

 Ultramarine vet wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
"Yeah, whatever Im done here. Go about living in your absurd fantasy"

Haha... I think we anti "Space Marines are ultimate gods" guys are the ones using reality to crush your fantasy dude.

You should be saying "let me live in my fantasy and keep reality out of it!"

Their technology is far more advanced than modern day Earth. YOU are ignorant. And as a matter of fact, Space Marines are indeed demi-gods. The primarchs were practically Gods. Where have you been?? I'm not even sure why you're on this 40k website, because you don't seem to be a Warhammer 40k fan. If you are a realist, then you should get off this website. It isn't for simple-minded people like you.

You are right, I thought I liked the fluff until I came on dakka and read how stupid it was. I simply like my WW2 in space now.

And simple minded? Simple minded is lacking sophistication. Look at your arguments, you know what they boil down to? "conflicting space magic books say this, no data, facts or anything actually real and working can persuade me otherwise!"

For example, that RPG post someone mentioned earlier really goes to show how just the most basic weapons we have today can halt a Space Marine in his tracks. This is a weapon that any man can use (and do use) to great effect. Its easy to make, easy to clean/use, has facts and data to back it up, yet you still somehow think that we have 0 chance of defeating Space marines. The only things they have going for them are giant space ships (provided they could actually work) that, according to you guys, defeat the purpose of even having space marines.

I dont see why its so hard to accept how pointless, ill thought out and illogical the Space marines are. It wouldnt annoy me so much if die hard Space marine fans realized this. But they seem to think that if it where translated in to real life they would work. I mean they dont even work on paper!

Anyways rant over. I have been watching this thread for a while and its done nothing but annoy me... Leaving now.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Ultramarine vet wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
"Yeah, whatever Im done here. Go about living in your absurd fantasy"

Haha... I think we anti "Space Marines are ultimate gods" guys are the ones using reality to crush your fantasy dude.

You should be saying "let me live in my fantasy and keep reality out of it!"

Their technology is far more advanced than modern day Earth. YOU are ignorant. And as a matter of fact, Space Marines are indeed demi-gods. The primarchs were practically Gods. Where have you been?? I'm not even sure why you're on this 40k website, because you don't seem to be a Warhammer 40k fan. If you are a realist, then you should get off this website. It isn't for simple-minded people like you.

You are right, I thought I liked the fluff until I came on dakka and read how stupid it was. I simply like my WW2 in space now.

And simple minded? Simple minded is lacking sophistication. Look at your arguments, you know what they boil down to? "conflicting space magic books say this, no data, facts or anything actually real and working can persuade me otherwise!"

For example, that RPG post someone mentioned earlier really goes to show how just the most basic weapons we have today can halt a Space Marine in his tracks. This is a weapon that any man can use (and do use) to great effect. Its easy to make, easy to clean/use, has facts and data to back it up, yet you still somehow think that we have 0 chance of defeating Space marines. The only things they have going for them are giant space ships (provided they could actually work) that, according to you guys, defeat the purpose of even having space marines.

I dont see why its so hard to accept how pointless, ill thought out and illogical the Space marines are. It wouldnt annoy me so much if die hard Space marine fans realized this. But they seem to think that if it where translated in to real life they would work. I mean they dont even work on paper!

Anyways rant over. I have been watching this thread for a while and its done nothing but annoy me... Leaving now.

Then do leave. *waves*

 Swastakowey wrote:

I dont see why its so hard to accept how pointless, ill thought out and illogical the Space marines are.

'If you'll just admit your favourite faction sucks, I'll be happy!'




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swastakowey wrote:
I simply like my WW2 in space now.

How is it even possible to get 40K to be WW2 in space?

It's like, as far from that as you can get.

It's like hating apples but picking apples anyway because you can pretend it's oranges and then you'll be happy, and apples won't work in real life.

Or something.

Why are we bothering with applying real life logic to a setting that entirely runs on handwavium anyway?

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Yeah, whatever Im done here. Go about living in your absurd fantasy

Yes, the one called "Warhammer 40,000"?

I'm not the one making up capabilities that the Astartes have never once exhibited, nor the one that missed major fundamental points of the 40k universe.

If you wanna be mad and stomp off, that's fine, but lets not make it out like it's something else.

 Ashiraya wrote:


What about Tyranids? Thanks to thermodynamics they do not even work in theory, like, at all.

This isn't a thread about Tyranids, so I haven't mentioned them much. I'll happily admit they're as futzball as anything else, but that's probably best left for another thread altogether.

Then why do people complain on Space Marines not working IRL?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Then why do people complain on Space Marines not working IRL?

Because every not working race has fans that accept their race cannot and will not work... except Space marines...

Sorry, just had to reply to that.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Then why do people complain on Space Marines not working IRL?

Because every not working race has fans that accept their race cannot and will not work... except Space marines...

Sorry, just had to reply to that.

Have you asked every Space Marine fan if they accept their race would not work IRL?

If not, how can you make an assertion you have no proof for?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Then why do people complain on Space Marines not working IRL?

Because the topic was raised and they're the major central focus of most 40k storylines and do things their numbers really shouldn't allow for?

 Ashiraya wrote:


How is it even possible to get 40K to be WW2 in space?

It's like, as far from that as you can get.

Because most of the battles play out in a very WW2 fashion. You have aircraft diving through hails of flack, tanks engaging each other at supremely close ranges, massed artillery batteries blasting large areas instead of specific targets, tons of battles featuring trench lines and bunkers, etc. Things that largely are WW1/WW2 era things.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Then why do people complain on Space Marines not working IRL?

Because every not working race has fans that accept their race cannot and will not work... except Space marines...

Sorry, just had to reply to that.

Have you asked every Space Marine fan if they accept their race would not work IRL?

If not, how can you make an assertion you have no proof for?

I didnt make a blanket comment. I siad "has fans that". Not all fans.

My friends plays Space marines but he is nothing like the Space marine Fans on the internet. Which is a whole level above any other races fans. (in my opinion and experience).

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Then why do people complain on Space Marines not working IRL?

Because every not working race has fans that accept their race cannot and will not work... except Space marines...

Sorry, just had to reply to that.

Have you asked every Space Marine fan if they accept their race would not work IRL?

If not, how can you make an assertion you have no proof for?

I didnt make a blanket comment. I siad "has fans that". Not all fans.

My friends plays Space marines but he is nothing like the Space marine Fans on the internet. Which is a whole level above any other races fans. (in my opinion and experience).

It is a blanket statement. You said there are no Marine fans who think their faction won't work. Right here.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Because every not working race has fans that accept their race cannot and will not work... except Space marines...

Also, Vaktathi.

I do not know what you guys are smoking but this really does not look like WW2 in space to me.

I apologize, thats true technically i did say that. But its close to true

I'm sorry if my love for SM's pisses everybody off and sorry I am too pathetic to admit that they are illogical and ill founded but I stand by my warhammer 40k beliefs and you wont ever change my mind. All the time all people ever do is tell me how irrational my views are but as you all have made so plainly I am living in my own fantasy and thats alright.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
I'm sorry if my love for SM's pisses everybody off and sorry I am too pathetic to admit that they are illogical and ill founded but I stand by my warhammer 40k beliefs and you wont ever change my mind. All the time all people ever do is tell me how irrational my views are but as you all have made so plainly I am living in my own fantasy and thats alright.

So far all you have been doing is telling us that our views are irrational.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
I'm sorry if my love for SM's pisses everybody off and sorry I am too pathetic to admit that they are illogical and ill founded but I stand by my warhammer 40k beliefs and you wont ever change my mind. All the time all people ever do is tell me how irrational my views are but as you all have made so plainly I am living in my own fantasy and thats alright.

Not just your fantasy, broseph.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
I'm sorry if my love for SM's pisses everybody off and sorry I am too pathetic to admit that they are illogical and ill founded but I stand by my warhammer 40k beliefs and you wont ever change my mind. All the time all people ever do is tell me how irrational my views are but as you all have made so plainly I am living in my own fantasy and thats alright.

So far all you have been doing is telling us that our views are irrational.

Everything is irrational

Everybody stop responding to me already

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Everything is irrational

CORRECT!

 Ashiraya wrote:

Also, Vaktathi.

I do not know what you guys are smoking but this really does not look like WW2 in space to me.

You're right, it does not. It looks very Sword and Sorcery in Space.

This however looks distinctly "early 20th century warfare" in space.
(This is another 40k thing where it's completely silly from a realistic perspective, and you have to wonder why the Astartes commander decides it's a good idea to charge with help on the way and he's in a secure entrenched position, but it does look 200% awesome. )





The vast majority of these videos from Final Liberation are also very "WW1/WW2"-ey.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL87B7EBBF5D4177F2

I'd also like to take a moment to point out that I don't "hate" the Space Marines, I've got probably eight thousand points of Chaos Space Marines, a Grey Knights army, and have more than enough loyalist stuff lying around to build a probably 3k army of normal SM's if I wanted to. I just think they need to be looked at with a bit more realism sometimes.

-Looks at Badab War, then most Space Marine Chapters, the Eldar, Tyranids, Necrons, and Orks-

Yep guys, definetly WWII in space, it's not like Astartes general eschew WWII style warfare for highly mobilized infantry focusing on VTOL support to drop off and pick armor to developing fronts or deep strike an entire army right behind the enemy. Or the endless hordes of the Tyranids, which function just as a giant blob of carbon that floods the battlefield and doesn't give a damn about your fortifications.

Or the Eldar, who use highly mobile infantry with VTOL transports/tanks to quickly jump about the front of the current war under direction of Farseers using precognition to direct their armies with near flawless efficiency- ensuring Aspect Warriors are always deployed at the most critical locations to give the army the highest chance of succeeding with minimal casualties.

Or the Necrons, the slowly rising zombified metal golems that slowly gain more and more territory in tight line formations that vaporize everything in their path. That slowly, over a period of time that can last from weeks to months, expand and solidify more and more terrain with seemingly endless armies multiply from the tombs underground to cover entire Hive Cities.

Or the Orks, the Green Tide, who in a much similar manner to Tyranids endlessly expand without being culled, eventually reaching a critical size where they become a solid mass of soldiers that attack in a giant WHAAAGH! of charging Orks who don't stop running till either they die or win. While great jury-rigged vehicles the size of Imperial Titans either march, fly, or float by the force, bombarding the enemy with tens to hundreds of shootas, cannons, and esoteric energy weapons unleash a wall of Dakka at the enemy.


So WWII guys. Really.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Everything is irrational

CORRECT!

 Ashiraya wrote:

Also, Vaktathi.

I do not know what you guys are smoking but this really does not look like WW2 in space to me.

You're right, it does not. It looks very Sword and Sorcery in Space.

This however looks distinctly "early 20th century warfare" in space.
(This is another 40k thing where it's completely silly from a realistic perspective, and you have to wonder why the Astartes commander decides it's a good idea to charge with help on the way and he's in a secure entrenched position, but it does look 200% awesome. )




ne
The vast majority of these videos from Final Liberation are also very "WW1/WW2"-ey.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL87B7EBBF5D4177F2

I'd also like to take a moment to point out that I don't "hate" the Space Marines, I've got probably eight thousand points of Chaos Space Marines, a Grey Knights army, and have more than enough loyalist stuff lying around to build a probably 3k army of normal SM's if I wanted to. I just think they need to be looked at with a bit more realism sometimes.

Now that second dawn of war video makes no sense at all. I agree, there was no reason for the Space Marine commander to charge from a good position.

The reason why no one really knows what a Space Marine is capable of is because......everything with them is so inconsistent. Sometimes, there is books and videos on Space Marines slaughtering hundreds of orks with almost no problem. Then videos like that dawn of war video, there were Space Marines dying to Ork boys in close combat immediately.

So what it all comes down to, is imagination. Which I think is the most important trait in 40k.

 Ultramarine vet wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Everything is irrational

CORRECT!

 Ashiraya wrote:

Also, Vaktathi.

I do not know what you guys are smoking but this really does not look like WW2 in space to me.

You're right, it does not. It looks very Sword and Sorcery in Space.

This however looks distinctly "early 20th century warfare" in space.
(This is another 40k thing where it's completely silly from a realistic perspective, and you have to wonder why the Astartes commander decides it's a good idea to charge with help on the way and he's in a secure entrenched position, but it does look 200% awesome. )




ne
The vast majority of these videos from Final Liberation are also very "WW1/WW2"-ey.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL87B7EBBF5D4177F2

I'd also like to take a moment to point out that I don't "hate" the Space Marines, I've got probably eight thousand points of Chaos Space Marines, a Grey Knights army, and have more than enough loyalist stuff lying around to build a probably 3k army of normal SM's if I wanted to. I just think they need to be looked at with a bit more realism sometimes.

Now that second dawn of war video makes no sense at all. I agree, there was no reason for the Space Marine commander to charge from a good position.

The reason why no one really knows what a Space Marine is capable of is because......everything with them is so inconsistent. Sometimes, there is books and videos on Space Marines slaughtering hundreds of orks with almost no problem. Then videos like that dawn of war video, there were Space Marines dying to Ork boys in close combat immediately.

So what it all comes down to, is imagination. Which I think is the most important trait in 40k.

I agree mate.

Its great that you admit (which was a big part of my points waaay earlier) that 40k is simply a conflicting source of space magic info and its up to us to fill in/replace what we wish.

So for me, 40k is WW2 re-skinned (and Power Armour doesnt exist) but for others its (insert world here).

But I think what is being discussed here (in my opinion) really proves how much the Space Marines are a stretch of the imagination. There are some who admit they think of Space marines how they want to despite the opposition (which is fine) but the ones who give Space Marines a bad name are the ones who are adamant that nothing can be said negative about them, bring up hundreds of quotes (which we both admit are constantly conflicted by its own source) and get angry when people dont "believe" them.

but your point is bang on. The real answer to this thread is "only if you can imagine it".

Ok, I'm not going to read the 12 pages, sorry for that.

IMO, the Space Marines can't really conquer a planet, but what they can do is hit important targets to soften up the enemy for the IG.

As example, if they were attacking RL Earth, they will drop on top of the US president, kill him and get out of there. They will never engage our massed armies, they can easily outmaneuver them and attack other targets. Thunderhawks can raid and destroy almost any target, they are essentially tanks flying at hypersonic speeds, we don't have anything that can bring down something like that.

And of course we can't do nothing to their ship in orbit, so they can practically force us to surrender under the threat of being nuked to the stone age.

 Wyzilla wrote:
-Looks at Badab War, then most Space Marine Chapters, the Eldar, Tyranids, Necrons, and Orks-


So WWII guys. Really.

I think the only reason we dont see 'WWII' or WWI style warfare is because we havent really had a war at such scale since... WWII.

teban wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
-Looks at Badab War, then most Space Marine Chapters, the Eldar, Tyranids, Necrons, and Orks-


So WWII guys. Really.

I think the only reason we dont see 'WWII' or WWI style warfare is because we havent really had a war at such scale since... WWII.

Pretty much. Especially as any modern world war would almost certainly end with at least one, if not more nations glassed by nukes.

I love how Techmarines are some kind of mystical space wizard with electronics, while the Adeptus Mechanicus who trained them are literally at the point of going over ten thousand year old archives with a jeweller's glass hunting desperately for the bit in the user manual that tells them what to do when their graphics card overheats. Only they don't know that its a graphics card, they just know that the cogitator doesn't work without it.

Whilst I appreciate the super seriousness of the topic at hand

....


there really is no need for rude or abusive posts. If your clever well reasoned argument doesn't sway them they're not going to be swayed by you insulting them.


Thank you.

Because painting your blue, that's how.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I love how Techmarines are some kind of mystical space wizard with electronics, while the Adeptus Mechanicus who trained them are literally at the point of going over ten thousand year old archives with a jeweller's glass hunting desperately for the bit in the user manual that tells them what to do when their graphics card overheats. Only they don't know that its a graphics card, they just know that the cogitator doesn't work without it.

Because they're Space Marines and that automatically makes them better than the AdMech?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:
Ok, I'm not going to read the 12 pages, sorry for that.

IMO, the Space Marines can't really conquer a planet, but what they can do is hit important targets to soften up the enemy for the IG.

As example, if they were attacking RL Earth, they will drop on top of the US president, kill him and get out of there. They will never engage our massed armies, they can easily outmaneuver them and attack other targets. Thunderhawks can raid and destroy almost any target, they are essentially tanks flying at hypersonic speeds, we don't have anything that can bring down something like that.

And of course we can't do nothing to their ship in orbit, so they can practically force us to surrender under the threat of being nuked to the stone age.

How do they know who the president is? They don't speak our language. How do they know where he is? They don't know the lay out of old Terra.

How can Space Marines outmaneuver us? Our tanks are faster. Our jet fighters are faster than even the vaunted Thunder Hawk and can shoot them from over the horizon. Our artillery is more accurate than theirs.

But yeah, they're major one up on us is their star ships. We can do nothing about those even if we launched everything we had at them. We can't even reach them unless they we're dumb enough to "park" them in low orbit.

"Forget all your preconceptions of war, of battle-lines clashing in the churned ground. Your mission is to attack before the foe even realises that the war has begun, to strike hard at those vital weaknesses that all armies possess, but that no commander will admit to. Under my tutelage you will learn how to seek out such fragilities and smite them with every weapon at your disposal. Master these duties and I will have nothing more to teach, and you will truly be a Space Marine."
Sergeant Torias Telion, Ultramarines 10th Company[1c]


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"More lightly armed and armoured than full Battle brothers, their role is to range ahead of the main Space Marine force, preparing the way for the main advance by infiltrating enemy lines, sabotaging and gathering intelligence - causing as much chaos and disruption as possible.[1a][2]"

Scouts are fully responsible and capable of finding out who the leader is.

And yet:

"As part of a Scout Squad, a Scout enters combat for the first time as a skirmisher, or an infiltrator. Relying on stealth rather than brute force, Scouts slip behind enemy lines, gather intelligence, destroy strategic targets, and capture or assassinate key enemy commanders, then fade away before the enemy has had a chance to react".

I can go all day.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Hate it.

It takes months of planning, untold man power and logistics to invade a small country, let along control it. If hundreds of Space marines dropped out of the sky today and started quickly hunting down and killing targets, they would not last a week before we eliminated them.

Its just a dumb thing that GW adds to their already crazy and vague fluff without much thought put behind it.

Like you, I do not see it being possible. The only useful things Space marines can do is support an Imperial Guard force, or go hunting for lost artifacts.

I do hate Space Marines though so I am a little biased. But there is no way even a thousand marines could conquer a planet similar to ours in terms of population etc. let alone anything bigger.

LOL If we were invaded by a 1000 space marines (doesnt matter what chapter) we would slowly lose hell it could be a couple months but they would be devastating not much would hurt a marine besides nukes, A-10 machine gun, or tank rounds. I think they would take us over easily cause if there are 1000 of them i am thinking of space marine vehicles which can out match anything we have or will have in the next 30 years!

just to quote Roboute girlyman
"send a squad of spacemarines take a city, send a company take the country, send the chapter take the world"

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
"Forget all your preconceptions of war, of battle-lines clashing in the churned ground. Your mission is to attack before the foe even realises that the war has begun, to strike hard at those vital weaknesses that all armies possess, but that no commander will admit to. Under my tutelage you will learn how to seek out such fragilities and smite them with every weapon at your disposal. Master these duties and I will have nothing more to teach, and you will truly be a Space Marine."
Sergeant Torias Telion, Ultramarines 10th Company[1c]


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"More lightly armed and armoured than full Battle brothers, their role is to range ahead of the main Space Marine force, preparing the way for the main advance by infiltrating enemy lines, sabotaging and gathering intelligence - causing as much chaos and disruption as possible.[1a][2]"

Scouts are fully responsible and capable of finding out who the leader is.

Okay. Here is the problem with that: Everyone of importance on modern earth dresses exactly the same. How would a Space Marine tell who is the Grand Poobah? Is it the man with the most lavish palace? Or is it the man who inhabits a building that looks like every other building in that city but is more heavily guarded? Is it the woman in Germany? She looks important. Is it your average celebrity who is celebrated by the masses? Is it Dear Leader? The Emperor of Japan? Is it the Governor of California? They don't speak our language and we are very culturally foreign against the Imperium.

But the Scouts manage to find things out about other cultures despite speaking a foreign language so I'll chalk that one up to suspension of disbelief. They figure out it's Mr. Obama himself. Then what? He's heavily guarded by the best our country has to offer. But they have space tech so I guess they could snipe him. Then what? Another one will take over and they'll never know about it because they don't speak our language. Sure, they can see a man wearing a suit is speaking on TV but not knowing what he is talking about he could be a white house speaker talking about the assassination or Kerry accepting his role as President.

My point is that Marines are ill equipped to perform wet work like that. They can against rebellious Imperials because the Imperium is pretty uniform when it comes to how governor's act. They live in the biggest hut in the village. Against other enemies it's also easy to figure out since they'll be wearing the shiniest gak of all. But against a civ who's leaders are near identical in appearance, who has a chain of command near unheard of to the Imperium and who speaks a foreign language? Not easy. Better to nuke everything.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
"Forget all your preconceptions of war, of battle-lines clashing in the churned ground. Your mission is to attack before the foe even realises that the war has begun, to strike hard at those vital weaknesses that all armies possess, but that no commander will admit to. Under my tutelage you will learn how to seek out such fragilities and smite them with every weapon at your disposal. Master these duties and I will have nothing more to teach, and you will truly be a Space Marine."
Sergeant Torias Telion, Ultramarines 10th Company[1c]


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"More lightly armed and armoured than full Battle brothers, their role is to range ahead of the main Space Marine force, preparing the way for the main advance by infiltrating enemy lines, sabotaging and gathering intelligence - causing as much chaos and disruption as possible.[1a][2]"

Scouts are fully responsible and capable of finding out who the leader is.

Okay. Here is the problem with that: Everyone of importance on modern earth dresses exactly the same. How would a Space Marine tell who is the Grand Poobah? Is it the man with the most lavish palace? Or is it the man who inhabits a building that looks like every other building in that city but is more heavily guarded? Is it the woman in Germany? She looks important. Is it your average celebrity who is celebrated by the masses? Is it Dear Leader? The Emperor of Japan? Is it the Governor of California? They don't speak our language and we are very culturally foreign against the Imperium.

But the Scouts manage to find things out about other cultures despite speaking a foreign language so I'll chalk that one up to suspension of disbelief. They figure out it's Mr. Obama himself. Then what? He's heavily guarded by the best our country has to offer. But they have space tech so I guess they could snipe him. Then what? Another one will take over and they'll never know about it because they don't speak our language. Sure, they can see a man wearing a suit is speaking on TV but not knowing what he is talking about he could be a white house speaker talking about the assassination or Kerry accepting his role as President.

My point is that Marines are ill equipped to perform wet work like that. They can against rebellious Imperials because the Imperium is pretty uniform when it comes to how governor's act. They live in the biggest hut in the village. Against other enemies it's also easy to figure out since they'll be wearing the shiniest gak of all. But against a civ who's leaders are near identical in appearance, who has a chain of command near unheard of to the Imperium and who speaks a foreign language? Not easy. Better to nuke everything.

Haha. Okay, lets talk about when the U.S. invaded Mogadishu. We spoke a different language than the Somalians but we still found out about Mohamed Farrah Aidid being their overall leader. We also found out about several other Somalian leaders and had them captured. To add, all those men looked almost the same. They had no fancy suits and no 200 square foot mansions but we found them anyway.

It can be done, and it will be done. Just because they speak a different language doesnt mean its now hopeless and impossible to gather intelligence.

I think this is one of the main problems i havewhen discussing these kinds of things. when people explain why they dont think its possible the answer they get back is "well there space marines of course that doesnt apply to them."

in my opinon they are good but too few. and its the numbers that will work against them in the end, the demi-god thing other people see them as is not something that i personally like or share.

I also would add that i think the idea of them invading earth is a bit sily. silly but interesting.

Boneville wrote:
I think this is one of the main problems i havewhen discussing these kinds of things. when people explain why they dont think its possible the answer they get back is "well there space marines of course that doesnt apply to them."

in my opinon they are good but too few. and its the numbers that will work against them in the end, the demi-god thing other people see them as is not something that i personally like or share.

I also would add that i think the idea of them invading earth is a bit sily. silly but interesting.

It's not uniform to imagine 1000 beings, superhuman or not to conquer earth.

I dont even remember whether i said SM's would take earth or not with those numbers, perhaps I did to spite all the people on here that hate SM's so much, but it probably wouldnt work. However, throw 100 million IG with those 1000 SM's then yeah, earth doesnt stand a single chance.

I just think its ridiculous to think that modern earth somehow has better technology than the IOM. I doubt modern earth even holds 10% of the knowledge the IOM has about technology. Absurd

Now I dont want anyone on here saying i am one of those "cuz they're SM's" kind of fanboys. Thats an ignorant and senseless explanation and I will not indulge in any such idiocy. I am merely frustrated with the amount of SM hate recieved on this post, especially in the beginning. We are passionate fans just as any other fanboys/girls that stay lovingly protective of their army. SM's recieve so much hate because they are always on the covers of anything warhammer 40k related and it leads to others who dont admire the SM's as much to get angry.

Well, dont get angry at the fans, be angry with GW and its many idiosyncrasies

 TheCustomLime wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:
Ok, I'm not going to read the 12 pages, sorry for that.

IMO, the Space Marines can't really conquer a planet, but what they can do is hit important targets to soften up the enemy for the IG.

As example, if they were attacking RL Earth, they will drop on top of the US president, kill him and get out of there. They will never engage our massed armies, they can easily outmaneuver them and attack other targets. Thunderhawks can raid and destroy almost any target, they are essentially tanks flying at hypersonic speeds, we don't have anything that can bring down something like that.

And of course we can't do nothing to their ship in orbit, so they can practically force us to surrender under the threat of being nuked to the stone age.

How do they know who the president is? They don't speak our language. How do they know where he is? They don't know the lay out of old Terra.

Ok, maybe not the president, but the are going to recognize important targets like oil refineries, fleets and other stuff.

How can Space Marines outmaneuver us? Our tanks are faster. Our jet fighters are faster than even the vaunted Thunder Hawk and can shoot them from over the horizon. Our artillery is more accurate than theirs.

A Thunderhawk is capable of reaching orbit, for that feat alone it must be far faster than any jet. No modern missile can make a direct hit to something that fast, in fact, our modern AA missiles are not meant to hit directly, but to cause damage with proximity explosions, and that isn't going to do anything to something with the armor of a tank.

I have a lot of Space Marine stuff and I love the faction. I just think some of the stuff they're described as being capable of is ludicrous. They're excellent shock infantry. Second to none in the Imperium. But being able to assassinate specific members of a a very foreign culture who speaks a language that is tens of a thousands of years dead? I think that would be hard for anyone unless they were either Psychic, had highly advanced technology or who were the masters of Assassination.

The reason the US is able to kill members of non-English speaking countries easily is that we have people that speak their languages on our side. If you don't know the language of a different culture than yours it is fairly difficult to understand how their society works especially if one like it doesn't exist/hasn't existed for a long time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:
Ok, I'm not going to read the 12 pages, sorry for that.

IMO, the Space Marines can't really conquer a planet, but what they can do is hit important targets to soften up the enemy for the IG.

As example, if they were attacking RL Earth, they will drop on top of the US president, kill him and get out of there. They will never engage our massed armies, they can easily outmaneuver them and attack other targets. Thunderhawks can raid and destroy almost any target, they are essentially tanks flying at hypersonic speeds, we don't have anything that can bring down something like that.

And of course we can't do nothing to their ship in orbit, so they can practically force us to surrender under the threat of being nuked to the stone age.

How do they know who the president is? They don't speak our language. How do they know where he is? They don't know the lay out of old Terra.

Ok, maybe not the president, but the are going to recognize important targets like oil refineries, fleets and other stuff.

How can Space Marines outmaneuver us? Our tanks are faster. Our jet fighters are faster than even the vaunted Thunder Hawk and can shoot them from over the horizon. Our artillery is more accurate than theirs.

A Thunderhawk is capable of reaching orbit, for that feat alone it must be far faster than any jet. No modern missile can make a direct hit to something that fast, in fact, our modern AA missiles are not meant to hit directly, but to cause damage with proximity explosions, and that isn't going to do anything to something with the armor of a tank.

Thunderhawk's maximum speed is stated to be 2,000 Km/h. The F22 Raptor's is 2400 km/h. Yeah, GW is bad with numbers.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I have a lot of Space Marine stuff and I love the faction. I just think some of the stuff they're described as being capable of is ludicrous. They're excellent shock infantry. Second to none in the Imperium. But being able to assassinate specific members of a a very foreign culture who speaks a language that is tens of a thousands of years dead? I think that would be hard for anyone unless they were either Psychic, had highly advanced technology or who were the masters of Assassination.

The reason the US is able to kill members of non-English speaking countries easily is that we have people that speak their languages on our side. If you don't know the language of a different culture than yours it is fairly difficult to understand how their society works especially if one like it doesn't exist/hasn't existed for a long time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:
Ok, I'm not going to read the 12 pages, sorry for that.

IMO, the Space Marines can't really conquer a planet, but what they can do is hit important targets to soften up the enemy for the IG.

As example, if they were attacking RL Earth, they will drop on top of the US president, kill him and get out of there. They will never engage our massed armies, they can easily outmaneuver them and attack other targets. Thunderhawks can raid and destroy almost any target, they are essentially tanks flying at hypersonic speeds, we don't have anything that can bring down something like that.

And of course we can't do nothing to their ship in orbit, so they can practically force us to surrender under the threat of being nuked to the stone age.

How do they know who the president is? They don't speak our language. How do they know where he is? They don't know the lay out of old Terra.

Ok, maybe not the president, but the are going to recognize important targets like oil refineries, fleets and other stuff.

How can Space Marines outmaneuver us? Our tanks are faster. Our jet fighters are faster than even the vaunted Thunder Hawk and can shoot them from over the horizon. Our artillery is more accurate than theirs.

A Thunderhawk is capable of reaching orbit, for that feat alone it must be far faster than any jet. No modern missile can make a direct hit to something that fast, in fact, our modern AA missiles are not meant to hit directly, but to cause damage with proximity explosions, and that isn't going to do anything to something with the armor of a tank.

Thunderhawk's maximum speed is stated to be 2,000 Km/h. The F22 Raptor's is 2400 km/h. Yeah, GW is bad with numbers.

Who said it'd be easy? They can do it

 TheCustomLime wrote:

Thunderhawk's maximum speed is stated to be 2,000 Km/h. The F22 Raptor's is 2400 km/h. Yeah, GW is bad with numbers.

Yeah, I usually ignore them when it comes to numbers, they never make sense.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:

Boneville wrote:
I think this is one of the main problems i havewhen discussing these kinds of things. when people explain why they dont think its possible the answer they get back is "well there space marines of course that doesnt apply to them."

in my opinon they are good but too few. and its the numbers that will work against them in the end, the demi-god thing other people see them as is not something that i personally like or share.

I also would add that i think the idea of them invading earth is a bit sily. silly but interesting.

It's not uniform to imagine 1000 beings, superhuman or not to conquer earth.

I dont even remember whether i said SM's would take earth or not with those numbers, perhaps I did to spite all the people on here that hate SM's so much, but it probably wouldnt work. However, throw 100 million IG with those 1000 SM's then yeah, earth doesnt stand a single chance.

I just think its ridiculous to think that modern earth somehow has better technology than the IOM. I doubt modern earth even holds 10% of the knowledge the IOM has about technology. Absurd

Now I dont want anyone on here saying i am one of those "cuz they're SM's" kind of fanboys. Thats an ignorant and senseless explanation and I will not indulge in any such idiocy. I am merely frustrated with the amount of SM hate recieved on this post, especially in the beginning. We are passionate fans just as any other fanboys/girls that stay lovingly protective of their army. SM's recieve so much hate because they are always on the covers of anything warhammer 40k related and it leads to others who dont admire the SM's as much to get angry.

Well, dont get angry at the fans, be angry with GW and its many idiosyncrasies

i can fully understand the frustration. I feel the same way in some situations.

I can fully admit that im not good with numbers in these cases. I just pick one that sound cool and stick with it. I dont really care about the specifics to that extent.

I usually explain it, to myself atlest, that most of the armour is of a material that is much stronger/sturdier than what we have now and that is true with explosives as well.

Theres really noone to get angry at. Just wish it didnt get so heated all the time.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I love how Techmarines are some kind of mystical space wizard with electronics, while the Adeptus Mechanicus who trained them are literally at the point of going over ten thousand year old archives with a jeweller's glass hunting desperately for the bit in the user manual that tells them what to do when their graphics card overheats. Only they don't know that its a graphics card, they just know that the cogitator doesn't work without it.

Because they're Space Marines and that automatically makes them better than the AdMech?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:
Ok, I'm not going to read the 12 pages, sorry for that.

IMO, the Space Marines can't really conquer a planet, but what they can do is hit important targets to soften up the enemy for the IG.

As example, if they were attacking RL Earth, they will drop on top of the US president, kill him and get out of there. They will never engage our massed armies, they can easily outmaneuver them and attack other targets. Thunderhawks can raid and destroy almost any target, they are essentially tanks flying at hypersonic speeds, we don't have anything that can bring down something like that.

And of course we can't do nothing to their ship in orbit, so they can practically force us to surrender under the threat of being nuked to the stone age.

How do they know who the president is? They don't speak our language. How do they know where he is? They don't know the lay out of old Terra.

How can Space Marines outmaneuver us? Our tanks are faster. Our jet fighters are faster than even the vaunted Thunder Hawk and can shoot them from over the horizon. Our artillery is more accurate than theirs.

But yeah, they're major one up on us is their star ships. We can do nothing about those even if we launched everything we had at them. We can't even reach them unless they we're dumb enough to "park" them in low orbit.

You do realize that they can near instantly learn our languages and our political systems by simply devouring abducted humans, right? They can learn almost everything we know by simply chowing down on a couple corpses and assimilating their memories.

They can learn skills that way? I thought it just showed them the memories like a disc player would play the disc inserted.

If they could learn whole skill sets that way, there would be no point in sending Techmarines to study.

Oh yeah, that ability breaks a lot. Why don't they appoint someone in a Tac/Command/Honor Guard squad to be the guy that eats the previous commander's brain when he bites it and automatically become as capable as he is? I can understand some situations where this would be impossible but that seems to be more the exception than the rule given how damned good marine armor/bone is. A shot to the head doesn't faze them.

They can and do learn. In Courage and Honour a Sergeant ate a Tau brain in order to pilot a Piranha on a stealth mission.

Isn't it obvious? Haven't you played the relic game Space Marine?

That's how it works. One captain titus killing a thousand orks.

A chapter can kill one million orks, perhaps five million guardsmen.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
also the fact that the orks have no armor, no guns and lousy choppas

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Isn't it obvious? Haven't you played the relic game Space Marine?

That's how it works. One captain titus killing a thousand orks.

A chapter can kill one million orks, perhaps five million guardsmen.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
also the fact that the orks have no armor, no guns and lousy choppas

The last paragraph is false. Some Orks have armour, they do have guns and what their gear lacks in quality they make up for in quality and brute force.

Space Marine is funny, as a dog-standard Chaos Raptor I solo killed 1000 foes from IG and Orks in Exterminatus, including a dozen Primaris Psykers and at least that many Nobz of various types.

Without dying once. (I only died when I was smacked in the face by a few angry Space Marines with chainswords)

 TheCustomLime wrote:
They can learn skills that way? I thought it just showed them the memories like a disc player would play the disc inserted.

Yup. Already mentioned were the Ultramarines who devoured a Tau pilot, Iron Warriors in Siege of Castellax also chowed down on some Ork pilots to learn who to fly an Ork fighter-bomber so they could get out of enemy territory. It didn't end well however due to Orks lacking brakes or throttle reduction.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
They can learn skills that way? I thought it just showed them the memories like a disc player would play the disc inserted.

Yup. Already mentioned were the Ultramarines who devoured a Tau pilot, Iron Warriors in Siege of Castellax also chowed down on some Ork pilots to learn who to fly an Ork fighter-bomber so they could get out of enemy territory. It didn't end well however due to Orks lacking brakes or throttle reduction.

Interesting. Do you think it is possible for a marine to eat the brain of his late commander and assume hisposition with all of his tactical know-how? As nonsensical as that is it would be sort of cool if they included it as a "thing" in future lore. Make Marines seem more alien.

Well, in that case, all the Scouts have to do is eat the brain of an knowledgeable human and they'll know who to shoot first. God help them if they eat the brains of people who... let's just say aren't worldly. It would give them a very skewed perspective on ancient Terran culture for sure.

Hee, can you imagine how broken a scout would be if he ate the average dakka-ite? He'd probably commit suicide right then and there if he took their opinions on the Imperium as rote!

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
They can learn skills that way? I thought it just showed them the memories like a disc player would play the disc inserted.

Yup. Already mentioned were the Ultramarines who devoured a Tau pilot, Iron Warriors in Siege of Castellax also chowed down on some Ork pilots to learn who to fly an Ork fighter-bomber so they could get out of enemy territory. It didn't end well however due to Orks lacking brakes or throttle reduction.

Interesting. Do you think it is possible for a marine to eat the brain of his late commander and assume hisposition with all of his tactical know-how? As nonsensical as that is it would be sort of cool if they included it as a "thing" in future lore. Make Marines seem more alien.

Well, in that case, all the Scouts have to do is eat the brain of an knowledgeable human and they'll know who to shoot first. God help them if they eat the brains of people who... let's just say aren't worldly. It would give them a very skewed perspective on ancient Terran culture for sure.

I wouldn't be surprised if they'd do that. I do know that Chaos Raptor Cults like the Bleeding Eyes chow down on their own Night Lord Chaos Space Marine dead, or loyalist Space Marines. Presumably it's how they're so good at politicking in the Night Lords- they know everything that's going on.

With loyalists however the process is probably taboo. Also it probably works on a probability factor depending on the percentage you eat. So to ensure you'd know everything you'd have to eat the whole body.

Hi everybody, I just got done reading all 13 pages of this discussion in an effort to make sure my proposed point wasn't touched on yet.

I see a lot of discussion on military might and tactics but one thing that I think we're all missing here is the fact that this is earth...a.k.a Holy Terra itself before the Emperor's rise to power.

Let's first decide what we're talking about here? Is this based in their own Universe? If it is, a single squad will never take over an entire planet unless the heresy hasn't spread to the population yet. If it's just a governor and his staff, a single squad has a decent chance to get in, get the job done and get out before it gets too rough. If they take too long; however, and allow the heresy to spread to the local PDF forces, then the odds of squashing the rebellion shrinks, the Siege of Vraks series is a prime example of how things can escalate out of their favor if they take too long.

A single company of 100 strong including Dreads and armoury support can work miracles in their own universe but still cannot take a planet without the support of Guard, it's just not going to happen realistically.

A whole chapter on the other hand is a force to be reckoned with especially if they're not Codex compliant like Space Wolves who still maintain Legion numbers. Now, whether a chapter can take a planet depends entirely on the type of force they're up against. A space marine chapter, IMO is far more able to hold a planet and repel an invasion that to invade a planet and expel it's current population, just look at the prolonged war in Armageddon. It's takes multiple chapters to successfully invade a planet, like Vraks, Badab, or Taros against the Tau and even then didn't really succeed that well.

So in conclusion for this part, in their own Universe Space Marines excel at invasion only if they get there in time. If they take too long and the heresy spreads too far then they absolutely require IG support.

Now let's examine what would happen if by some miracle a chapter of Space Marines, lets say Ultramarines just to keep things simple, were to arrive via warp storm in our time, Let's say that since there is no Emperor or Astronomicon in this time that the Navigators or Astropaths would have no idea where they were and would have no communication to other fleets or imperial worlds. That's the first challenge to overcome. Now, that being said let's look at a Space Marine's training. They're more than just super-soldiers. They're pretty much combat monks. They're fanatical in their faith to the Emperor and are supposed to memorize the entire Codex Astartes which is supposedly the ultimate manual on combat tactics and they're Chaplains make current religious fanatics look tame by comparison.

Now let's say for the sake of argument that the marines actually recognize earth for what it is...it is in fact Holy Terra itself before the Emperor's rise to power. We're all forgetting that no Loyalist marine in his right mind would ever in a million years aggressively land on Holy Terra's surface and start shooting up the place. In addition to that, no Chaplain would ever allow it either. Their fanaticism would never allow them to put at risk any future events with their arrival. (Yes, that's some Back to the Future logic). If they indeed recognized Earth, they would instantly turn around and leave it be. The Emperor will indeed rise soon and unite the techno-barbarian tribes...a.k.a "US".

So that's my opinion on the matter...never mind tactics, weapons and national pride...It is a fact that no loyalist Marine will ever willfully attack Holy Terra regardless of the planet's current condition. Their loyalty, fanaticism and superstition would prevent them from risking any kind of alteration to events that could negatively affect the Imperium. It's common sense.

This is just my opinion on the matter...though it does sound like it'd make for a cool Fan-Fiction, though I'm sure someone's thought of it already.

Drop pod into capital/communication hub. Pay for airtime on all television networks on the planet. 9 foot tall superman goes on camera, adjusts his glasses slightly and defines the term "exterminatus." TV goes to test pattern with the old Indian head replaced with the Emperor giving the thumbs up and some grimdark equivalent of Join or Die message along the bottom of the screen. Won't work every time, but if it doesn't, well, planet gets exterminatused...ed.