I keep seeing and reading how Space Marines can conquer an entire planet with just a Chapter or two, and how one Primarch can solo an entire army or conquer a planet single handedly....
The question is...HOW?
I just don't see it.
I think that a Primarch or a Chapter can locate a singular world government HQ, track all the leadership and then swoop down from orbit, capture/kill all of the leaders, destroy the commo nodes, ortillery the supply depots, nuke a few cities and all that jazz...but that still, to me, is not "conquering" an entire planet.
Especially if there is a planet without a singular government...like modern Earth. If there are 10 or 20 separate countries, how does 1000 marines "conquer" the planet? The fluff seems to be more indicative of 100+ marines doing surgical strikes and then 1 million+ IG dropping down immediately after to wage 5 to 10 years of pacification ops...
As for a Primarch solo'ing a planet? I really can't see that at all...
Conquering a planet is easy, ruling a planet is hard.
Almost all the Primarchs were either in control of their planets by the time the Emperor found them or put the existing governing bodies in place. And they didn't have their Astartes Legions to help them do it.
Of course this process most likely took decades of politicking, diplomacy, warfare, legislation and building infrastructure.
When your mind cast doubt on their abilities, remember that the Rule of Cool is the defining force of the lore of Warhammer 40k.
It takes months of planning, untold man power and logistics to invade a small country, let along control it. If hundreds of Space marines dropped out of the sky today and started quickly hunting down and killing targets, they would not last a week before we eliminated them.
Its just a dumb thing that GW adds to their already crazy and vague fluff without much thought put behind it.
Like you, I do not see it being possible. The only useful things Space marines can do is support an Imperial Guard force, or go hunting for lost artifacts.
I do hate Space Marines though so I am a little biased. But there is no way even a thousand marines could conquer a planet similar to ours in terms of population etc. let alone anything bigger.
It takes months of planning, untold man power and logistics to invade a small country, let along control it. If hundreds of Space marines dropped out of the sky today and started quickly hunting down and killing targets, they would not last a week before we eliminated them.
Its just a dumb thing that GW adds to their already crazy and vague fluff without much thought put behind it.
Like you, I do not see it being possible. The only useful things Space marines can do is support an Imperial Guard force, or go hunting for lost artifacts.
I do hate Space Marines though so I am a little biased. But there is no way even a thousand marines could conquer a planet similar to ours in terms of population etc. let alone anything bigger.
You are aware that Marines have their own starships right?
It takes months of planning, untold man power and logistics to invade a small country, let along control it. If hundreds of Space marines dropped out of the sky today and started quickly hunting down and killing targets, they would not last a week before we eliminated them.
Its just a dumb thing that GW adds to their already crazy and vague fluff without much thought put behind it.
Like you, I do not see it being possible. The only useful things Space marines can do is support an Imperial Guard force, or go hunting for lost artifacts.
I do hate Space Marines though so I am a little biased. But there is no way even a thousand marines could conquer a planet similar to ours in terms of population etc. let alone anything bigger.
You are aware that Marines have their own starships right?
You are aware we are talking about 1000 Marines (at maximum) right?
You are aware we are talking about 1000 Marines (at maximum) right?
It could be ten Marines. They'd still conquer a planet like ours as long as they had a single starship, As long as someone is piloting that ship we'd have no defense against tactical orbital bombardments.
A single chapter can conquer a planet the same way a single regiment or handful of regiments routinely do in the fluff.
It's almost as if Games Workshop has no sense of scale, or something. It's an issue with the franchise in general, and focusing your anus-anger on only a single aspect of that failing (Space Marines) is silly.
You are aware we are talking about 1000 Marines (at maximum) right?
It could be ten Marines. They'd still conquer a planet like ours as long as they had a single starship, As long as someone is piloting that ship we'd have no defense against tactical orbital bombardments.
Really, since when have navies conquered anything?
They can have 10 star ships and bomb the world for days. but it wont conquer the planet. Just be a pain in the butt. If anything its just adding to the huge stuff the guy who ordered the attack.
In the pacific the US navy would bombard islands for days before attacking. Did very little to actually hinder the enemy. They still needed to send in 10s of thousands of marines to actually conquer it.
Navies help win wars. They do not win them on their own.
Like most humans, we will quickly find a way to eliminate it. Also we are talking about the 40k universe which would be far better than ours in terms of defenses.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BlaxicanX wrote: A single chapter can conquer a planet the same way a single regiment or handful of regiments routinely do in the fluff.
It's almost as if Games Workshop has no sense of scale, or something. Focusing your anus-anger on only a single aspect of that failing (Space Marines) is silly.
Agreed, I always imagine hundreds of millions of men having to conquer planets in my fluff. If not more.
You are aware we are talking about 1000 Marines (at maximum) right?
It could be ten Marines. They'd still conquer a planet like ours as long as they had a single starship, As long as someone is piloting that ship we'd have no defense against tactical orbital bombardments.
My post mentioned that when the Primarchs were cast into the Warp they conquered their adopted planets with nothing but the strength of their fists and the persuasiveness of their voices. No starships that I recall
It also bothers me when a handful of regiments are sent in to take planets as well. 1,000,000 men or so at the most. Unless it's a planet of rock bashing cavemen that will not be enough. It's the same problem with the Grand Army of the Republic and it's pitifully tiny numbers.
I think Games Workshop (And a lot of sci-fi writers) believes a world's population will surrender when a single large and exciting battle is won.
There is no instance of any of the Primarchs conquering planets simply by beating the inhabitants' to death with brute force. They became leaders of their worlds by winning hearts and minds, and the Primarchs who were unable to do that... didn't rule their worlds.
BlaxicanX wrote: There is no instance of any of the Primarchs conquering planets simply by beating the inhabitants' to death with brute force. They became leaders of their worlds by winning hearts and minds, and the Primarchs who were unable to do that... didn't rule their worlds.
Like Angron.
I suppose i'm not good at getting to the point which wasin some cases all it took was the Primarch to bring the entire world to the Imperial fold.
I understand your point. My point is that no Primarch has conquered a planet single-handidly purely through strength of arms. If a Primarch manages to conquer a planet alone, it's through diplomacy. And what's so far-fetched about that?
@Swasticakowey - Not true. The British navy won a war with some Afrian country (I think. Could have been somewhere else though) and even billed them for the shells they fired. Crazy but true.
Themanwiththeplan wrote: @Swasticakowey - Not true. The British navy won a war with some Afrian country (I think. Could have been somewhere else though) and even billed them for the shells they fired. Crazy but true.
Find the reference and i'll believe you, but that would be an exception rather than the rule obviously.
Im actually pretty interested by the way, so I hope you find it haha.
BlaxicanX wrote: A single chapter can conquer a planet the same way a single regiment or handful of regiments routinely do in the fluff.
It's almost as if Games Workshop has no sense of scale, or something. It's an issue with the franchise in general, and focusing your anus-anger on only a single aspect of that failing (Space Marines) is silly.
This is also true. How many Tyranids did Maugan Ra smack around now again?
Themanwiththeplan wrote: @Swasticakowey - Not true. The British navy won a war with some Afrian country (I think. Could have been somewhere else though) and even billed them for the shells they fired. Crazy but true.
Find the reference and i'll believe you, but that would be an exception rather than the rule obviously.
Im actually pretty interested by the way, so I hope you find it haha.
Themanwiththeplan wrote: @Swasticakowey - Not true. The British navy won a war with some Afrian country (I think. Could have been somewhere else though) and even billed them for the shells they fired. Crazy but true.
Find the reference and i'll believe you, but that would be an exception rather than the rule obviously.
Im actually pretty interested by the way, so I hope you find it haha.
haha well there you have it. So yes, a Navy can win a war on its own... but its certainly not worth bargaining on and in almost every situation its better to not 100% rely on the navy to conquer countries.
To use the example of Navy bombing islands for days then sending marines in...
Those were typically prepared positions, tunnel systems and the likes, against enemies with hearts hardened to kill.
An orbital bombardment.. oh look, Tokyo, BOOOOM, Atlanta, BOOOOM, Detroit... well even the Astartes in space are scared of Detroit.. But you get the idea. When they can flatten every civilian population, why would they shoot at prepared positions to subjugate our planet by force?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Seems easier to do what we did to Japan in WW2... Knock out a few major cities and promise more is easily on the way.
Keep in mind, that not all planets are hive worlds or garden worlds. Conquering an entire planet might mean just capturing a few small cities if it's a death world, or ice world, feral world, or is inhospitable for a variety of reasons.
Frankly, I prefer the image of the Space Marines nuking major population centers, planting a flag saying "mission accomplished", while the guardsmen are stuck fighting insurgents for the next ten years, a la Iraq.
Pyeatt wrote: To use the example of Navy bombing islands for days then sending marines in...
Those were typically prepared positions, tunnel systems and the likes, against enemies with hearts hardened to kill.
An orbital bombardment.. oh look, Tokyo, BOOOOM, Atlanta, BOOOOM, Detroit... well even the Astartes in space are scared of Detroit.. But you get the idea. When they can flatten every civilian population, why would they shoot at prepared positions to subjugate our planet by force?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Seems easier to do what we did to Japan in WW2... Knock out a few major cities and promise more is easily on the way.
Its not that easy. The ship has to move to position to actually bomb all these cities (remember, people are paid to watch space its not like they will appear right in orbit guns blazing), it also has to have a supply chain to reliably take out all these cities along with the ability to survive the weapons we use against it (if we do).
But I will admit, nothing in 40k makes sense. Im sure they have written some crazy stupid weapons that those ships can carry. Which makes things hard to argue against because most of the fluff is just ridiculously dumb for the most part.
But even in the fluff (the bit we are arguing about) space marines dont win by waiting for the ships to (stupidly) eliminate the planet before they land and plant a flag. So with that in mind, there is no chance of it happening.
They do say in the fluff that despite thier small numbers Space Marines have been enough to hold everyone at bay so there's that.
As for conquering a planet? As far as I understand a squad of six Deathwatch is considered overkill for anything but the most brutal of needs, so there is that. Despite how easily I seem to clear them off the table in droves, they are really written to be the elite of the elite. Other armies see Imperial Guard battalions and are like "Whoa...this is gonna take some doing but we got this." They see a company of Space Marines and they go "fffffffffuuuuuuuuuu..." then crap themselves.
Imo, they are the top warriors in the galaxy currently, so I can see the intimidation factor alone as being plenty to hold a planet in check. At least for a time...
The SM's sever the head and rip out the jugular, though the body has been known to twitch and convulse after its demise.
the OP is right though. On their own they can't completely conquor a world by themselves unless it's within the bounds of the reasons stated above. But I've always seen it as they need the Guard to control the people. The marines are just for the leaders and most important targets on the planet.
Even with the excuses GW gives ("they're pretty strong", "they leave most of the work to the Imperial Guard", etc.) it's pretty nonsensical in a IRL sense. A company of Space Marines would have a tough time securing the state of Connecticut, nevermind entire planets.
Space Marine Legions of the Great Crusade as described in FW's HH series approach the necessary size for planetary operations, given what we know about Space Marines and how they operate..
slade the sniper wrote: I keep seeing and reading how Space Marines can conquer an entire planet with just a Chapter or two, and how one Primarch can solo an entire army or conquer a planet single handedly....
The question is...HOW?
I just don't see it.
I think that a Primarch or a Chapter can locate a singular world government HQ, track all the leadership and then swoop down from orbit, capture/kill all of the leaders, destroy the commo nodes, ortillery the supply depots, nuke a few cities and all that jazz...but that still, to me, is not "conquering" an entire planet.
Especially if there is a planet without a singular government...like modern Earth. If there are 10 or 20 separate countries, how does 1000 marines "conquer" the planet? The fluff seems to be more indicative of 100+ marines doing surgical strikes and then 1 million+ IG dropping down immediately after to wage 5 to 10 years of pacification ops...
As for a Primarch solo'ing a planet? I really can't see that at all...
What say fellow dakkanaughts?
-STS
Honestly outside of ridiculous amounts of plot-armor and bad writing there no possible way 1000 marines would be capable of taking over most planets. Just another example of how GW has no sense of scale and blind favoritism for SM.
TheCustomLime wrote: It also bothers me when a handful of regiments are sent in to take planets as well. 1,000,000 men or so at the most. Unless it's a planet of rock bashing cavemen that will not be enough. It's the same problem with the Grand Army of the Republic and it's pitifully tiny numbers.
I think Games Workshop (And a lot of sci-fi writers) believes a world's population will surrender when a single large and exciting battle is won.
Yeah, I wonder at the lack of understanding of human nature that portrays on the part of writers...people will fight to the death, and the deaths of their children and be more than happy to sacrifice millions in the quest to achieve some goal much less important than winning a literal existential war...to think that people would just roll over and go "hmmmm, well, they killed off the planetary president, guess I better do what they say..." is kind of asinine.
Additionally, how much ammo does a space marine carry for those bolters...I mean, they must be packing about 2,000 to 3,000 rounds a piece, never use suppressive fire, get one shot kills with every shot while on the move at 10's of Km/h, incredibly accurate real time intel down to individual enemies while still having absolute complete control of the tactical, operational and strategic (or global, I suppose) enemy order of battle, never eat, never sleep, have immunity to indirect fire, mines, ambushes, and be able to have global maneuverability in mere minutes/an hour at max, never have jammed commo...
I know it's just a sci-fi game, but sometimes it just boggles my mind that people that write/play/fantasize about warfare would be so bad at understanding it.
GW has given plenty of examples of them doing it, but they all spit on a firmly established part of the setting: After the Heresy the Legions were split up into Chapters of limited size so they cannot be a threat on their own.
Mat Ward didn't just walk in off the street saying "I want to write some over the top rubbish!" (ie: Mortarion's heart), he was summoned into existence by the weight of 20 years of GW employees letting their marine fanboyism override a core tenet of the setting.
also if the Planetary defenses are sub-par it may only take a squad example 10 marines fighting simple civilians ,considering the average marine carries 12 magazines each containing around 30 bolts 30x12x10=3600 shots able to kill a regular human in one shot (maybe more as they explode) now I believe that could handle a small country or at least a crappy planetary defense force, also as space marines are near god like to normal people little resistance can be expected but this would only be against human held planets, against a tyranid or ork infested one they are screwed but say against a small dark elder or tau world they would do just fine
It takes months of planning, untold man power and logistics to invade a small country, let along control it. If hundreds of Space marines dropped out of the sky today and started quickly hunting down and killing targets, they would not last a week before we eliminated them.
Its just a dumb thing that GW adds to their already crazy and vague fluff without much thought put behind it.
Like you, I do not see it being possible. The only useful things Space marines can do is support an Imperial Guard force, or go hunting for lost artifacts.
I do hate Space Marines though so I am a little biased. But there is no way even a thousand marines could conquer a planet similar to ours in terms of population etc. let alone anything bigger.
Wat.
Even just a Chapter would kick the absolute gak out of the modern world. We don't have any weapons capable of harming them that we can reliably depend on to do so that can track and hit an infantry target capable of killing tanks with its fists. fething hell, I mean they can tank shots from MBT's and take out our CAS with their "small arms" fire. And that's not even counting special weapons, orbital support that can glass the planet, or the sheer demoralization for troops with how a single squad could go clean through a modern infantry platoon without a scratch, shoot down helicopters, and blow apart our tanks with one shot from their special or heavy weapons. We'd surrender in very short order if Adeptus Astartes showed up, mentally slowed not to do so in fact given orbital superiority.
Of course, they wouldn't be the worst faction. At least you can sometime surrender to Space Marines. Daemons, Necrons, and Tyranids just completely demolish the planet without a chance in hell of you surviving without divine intervention. At least against Orks, Tau, and the Imperial Guard we could put up something resembling a fight.
Also, you have to remember Space Marines don't occupy a planet. They conquer it by blowing apart the leaders, communication, and major parts of the world's military. It's the guard and arbites who occupy a planet, Space Marines just pick up all their gear and leave the guard to their job.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheSilo wrote: Keep in mind, that not all planets are hive worlds or garden worlds. Conquering an entire planet might mean just capturing a few small cities if it's a death world, or ice world, feral world, or is inhospitable for a variety of reasons.
Frankly, I prefer the image of the Space Marines nuking major population centers, planting a flag saying "mission accomplished", while the guardsmen are stuck fighting insurgents for the next ten years, a la Iraq.
It's not really headcanon actually. That's pretty much what happens all the time in the fluff. Space Marines sack a planet silly, piss off the inhabitants and scare them senseless, then zip right back into space and leave some poor unfortunate guardsmen and arbites the job of keeping the peace. The job of an Astartes is to simply kill everything holding a gun.
It takes months of planning, untold man power and logistics to invade a small country, let along control it. If hundreds of Space marines dropped out of the sky today and started quickly hunting down and killing targets, they would not last a week before we eliminated them.
Its just a dumb thing that GW adds to their already crazy and vague fluff without much thought put behind it.
Like you, I do not see it being possible. The only useful things Space marines can do is support an Imperial Guard force, or go hunting for lost artifacts.
I do hate Space Marines though so I am a little biased. But there is no way even a thousand marines could conquer a planet similar to ours in terms of population etc. let alone anything bigger.
Wat.
Even just a Chapter would kick the absolute gak out of the modern world. We don't have any weapons capable of harming them that we can reliably depend on to do so that can track and hit an infantry target capable of killing tanks with its fists. fething hell, I mean they can tank shots from MBT's and take out our CAS with their "small arms" fire. And that's not even counting special weapons, orbital support that can glass the planet, or the sheer demoralization for troops with how a single squad could go clean through a modern infantry platoon without a scratch, shoot down helicopters, and blow apart our tanks with one shot from their special or heavy weapons. We'd surrender in very short order if Adeptus Astartes showed up, mentally slowed not to do so in fact given orbital superiority.
Of course, they wouldn't be the worst faction. At least you can sometime surrender to Space Marines. Daemons, Necrons, and Tyranids just completely demolish the planet without a chance in hell of you surviving without divine intervention. At least against Orks, Tau, and the Imperial Guard we could put up something resembling a fight.
Also, you have to remember Space Marines don't occupy a planet. They conquer it by blowing apart the leaders, communication, and major parts of the world's military. It's the guard and arbites who occupy a planet, Space Marines just pick up all their gear and leave the guard to their job.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheSilo wrote: Keep in mind, that not all planets are hive worlds or garden worlds. Conquering an entire planet might mean just capturing a few small cities if it's a death world, or ice world, feral world, or is inhospitable for a variety of reasons.
Frankly, I prefer the image of the Space Marines nuking major population centers, planting a flag saying "mission accomplished", while the guardsmen are stuck fighting insurgents for the next ten years, a la Iraq.
It's not really headcanon actually. That's pretty much what happens all the time in the fluff. Space Marines sack a planet silly, piss off the inhabitants and scare them senseless, then zip right back into space and leave some poor unfortunate guardsmen and arbites the job of keeping the peace. The job of an Astartes is to simply kill everything holding a gun.
I'll have to respectfully disagree with you about a modern army's ability to combat Space Marines. I am beyond confident that the. United States military would be completely capable of the destruction of an entire Space Marines chapter. Though it's completely impossible to debate this with factual evidence.
When the loyalist WE's (their numbers I'm guessing in the thousands) are holding off a whole city (hundreds of thousands) they seemed a bit 'busy' to do much else but fight off simple civilians. These people were armed with everything and anything, including shards of pottery. And they still managed to take down a WE or two.
to say normal people have not a chance against SM's is laughable. Numbers make up for poor quality more times than not.
It takes months of planning, untold man power and logistics to invade a small country, let along control it. If hundreds of Space marines dropped out of the sky today and started quickly hunting down and killing targets, they would not last a week before we eliminated them.
Its just a dumb thing that GW adds to their already crazy and vague fluff without much thought put behind it.
Like you, I do not see it being possible. The only useful things Space marines can do is support an Imperial Guard force, or go hunting for lost artifacts.
I do hate Space Marines though so I am a little biased. But there is no way even a thousand marines could conquer a planet similar to ours in terms of population etc. let alone anything bigger.
Wat.
Even just a Chapter would kick the absolute gak out of the modern world. We don't have any weapons capable of harming them that we can reliably depend on to do so that can track and hit an infantry target capable of killing tanks with its fists. fething hell, I mean they can tank shots from MBT's and take out our CAS with their "small arms" fire. And that's not even counting special weapons, orbital support that can glass the planet, or the sheer demoralization for troops with how a single squad could go clean through a modern infantry platoon without a scratch, shoot down helicopters, and blow apart our tanks with one shot from their special or heavy weapons. We'd surrender in very short order if Adeptus Astartes showed up, mentally slowed not to do so in fact given orbital superiority.
Also, you have to remember Space Marines don't occupy a planet. They conquer it by blowing apart the leaders, communication, and major parts of the world's military. It's the guard and arbites who occupy a planet, Space Marines just pick up all their gear and leave the guard to their job.
No, space marines are a flawed and outdated concept of "bigger is better". There is nothing practical or useful about a Space marine to even be useful for anything but costing a crap ton of money. Its just childish super hero nonsense to think Space marines are as awesome as you described. In reality they wouldnt last at all in a gun fight. Bullets wont harmlessly bounce off them. The bullets would start hitting vital joints, visors and sensors, even the bolt gun would be subject to a hail of gunfire. Let alone support weapons like mortars and grenade launchers shattering ribs and shocking their targets.
There is a reason the only possible way A space marine unit can take over a planet is through the navy. Why? Because there is no logical way a space marine can win anything. Why? Because they are so stupidly written that its simply a "because space marines are cool and strong" excuse for anything they do.
I wont bother saying anymore, because I know people like SPace Marines and while I think the concept can be cool, there is no way a Space marine could do anything more than a normal soldier in combat. If anything their size and bulk would hinder them in combat. Let alone the fact that they cant help but scream running towards the enemy as their main tactic.
Space Marines are simply incapable of being efficient at anything when you think about it. Let alone how Much food a Space Marine would need to consume to stay active. They would have to carry so much food it would be a hindrance. Also think about how many Marines would die just trying to land from their Drop Pods? Nothing about them is practical or worth keeping them for.
Of course, maybe you can stretch reality better than I can.
Space marines are in 40k for the same reason the robots and monsters are in the Pacific Rim movie. mindless action that doesnt need reasoning or thought. because as soon as you think about it, it all falls apart
When the loyalist WE's (their numbers I'm guessing in the thousands) are holding off a whole city (hundreds of thousands) they seemed a bit 'busy' to do much else but fight off simple civilians. These people were armed with everything and anything, including shards of pottery. And they still managed to take down a WE or two.
to say normal people have not a chance against SM's is laughable. Numbers make up for poor quality more times than not.
It takes months of planning, untold man power and logistics to invade a small country, let along control it. If hundreds of Space marines dropped out of the sky today and started quickly hunting down and killing targets, they would not last a week before we eliminated them.
Its just a dumb thing that GW adds to their already crazy and vague fluff without much thought put behind it.
Like you, I do not see it being possible. The only useful things Space marines can do is support an Imperial Guard force, or go hunting for lost artifacts.
I do hate Space Marines though so I am a little biased. But there is no way even a thousand marines could conquer a planet similar to ours in terms of population etc. let alone anything bigger.
Wat.
Even just a Chapter would kick the absolute gak out of the modern world. We don't have any weapons capable of harming them that we can reliably depend on to do so that can track and hit an infantry target capable of killing tanks with its fists. fething hell, I mean they can tank shots from MBT's and take out our CAS with their "small arms" fire. And that's not even counting special weapons, orbital support that can glass the planet, or the sheer demoralization for troops with how a single squad could go clean through a modern infantry platoon without a scratch, shoot down helicopters, and blow apart our tanks with one shot from their special or heavy weapons. We'd surrender in very short order if Adeptus Astartes showed up, mentally slowed not to do so in fact given orbital superiority.
Also, you have to remember Space Marines don't occupy a planet. They conquer it by blowing apart the leaders, communication, and major parts of the world's military. It's the guard and arbites who occupy a planet, Space Marines just pick up all their gear and leave the guard to their job.
No, space marines are a flawed and outdated concept of "bigger is better". There is nothing practical or useful about a Space marine to even be useful for anything but costing a crap ton of money. Its just childish super hero nonsense to think Space marines are as awesome as you described. In reality they wouldnt last at all in a gun fight. Bullets wont harmlessly bounce off them. The bullets would start hitting vital joints, visors and sensors, even the bolt gun would be subject to a hail of gunfire. Let alone support weapons like mortars and grenade launchers shattering ribs and shocking their targets.
There is a reason the only possible way A space marine unit can take over a planet is through the navy. Why? Because there is no logical way a space marine can win anything. Why? Because they are so stupidly written that its simply a "because space marines are cool and strong" excuse for anything they do.
I wont bother saying anymore, because I know people like SPace Marines and while I think the concept can be cool, there is no way a Space marine could do anything more than a normal soldier in combat. If anything their size and bulk would hinder them in combat. Let alone the fact that they cant help but scream running towards the enemy as their main tactic.
Space Marines are simply incapable of being efficient at anything when you think about it. Let alone how Much food a Space Marine would need to consume to stay active. They would have to carry so much food it would be a hindrance. Also think about how many Marines would die just trying to land from their Drop Pods? Nothing about them is practical or worth keeping them for.
Of course, maybe you can stretch reality better than I can.
Space marines are in 40k for the same reason the robots and monsters are in the Pacific Rim movie. mindless action that doesnt need reasoning or thought. because as soon as you think about it, it all falls apart
You really hate Space Marines, I see. Unfortunately for you your arguments hold no grounds whatsoever. Because if GW says a squad can rampage across a planet until it simply surrenders, then it can. All assuming you won't just headcanon everything away (Which I assume you have, making this discussion pointless) then you need to adapt your own views, normally designed for use in our own universe, to the setting. Okay. A squad can take a planet. Do not say 'That's ridiculous!'. Think instead. Why can they take a planet? Maybe that way? No, that's not enough. Or that? No, that's not enough either. But maybe this way? Yes, this is the only way it'd work. Then that is the way it is.
Space Marines are obviously gods of war by modern standards, given how effective they are portrayed as in warzones so much more than ours. You think they are ineffective? But they are clad in space-armour, using space-guns shooting space-bullets and punching you with space-fists. You know how the earth being round was something unthinkable centuries ago? Or how aircraft was forever doomed to be fiction? Yeah, it's the same thing. We have no idea of how these things really work, we do not know how impact-resilient Ceramite is, except by using the shown feats of Ceramite. Which are considerable.
Space Marines, to me, are one of the coolest parts of the entire setting. Normally you have sci-fi settings where big strong things are made redundant because of the ludicrous firepower available, but 40K's science fantasy blends sci-fi with classic themes like great monsters and mighty heroes laying waste to the battlefield. If you just want IGhammer 40K like it sounds, then why not just take one of the other sci-fi settings where everything dies like chumps instead of picking the one where Necrons, Ork monsters, Space Marines and Eldar (And so on) run across the battlefield and tank earth-shattering firepower, each in their own way, without breaking a sweat?
If Space Marines are strong enough to be effective despite the drawback of great size, well, then it seems they are! And since they are, they are! Logic!
It is not stupid at all when you think about it.
Welcome to 40K, leave that useless Earth logic of yours at the door and you'll find it much easier to enjoy yourself.
slade the sniper wrote: I keep seeing and reading how Space Marines can conquer an entire planet with just a Chapter or two, and how one Primarch can solo an entire army or conquer a planet single handedly....
The question is...HOW?
They use strike forces to sneak in and take out the planetary defenses, then come into orbit and destroy the largest or toughest force by either orbital bombardment or like the 300 and take it with the assistance of many times their own number of IG. Once the big dogs are down, the Space Marines claim victory and the IG are tasked with occupation.
Space Marine victory is simply destroying the largest threat and calling it a day.
Perhaps the statement "A single squad can conquer a world" is part hyperbole and part Imperial propaganda. Maybe a singe squad can perform actions that greatly assist in the conquest of a world but it's ultimately up to the Imperial Guard to actually take and hold territory.
TheCustomLime wrote: Perhaps the statement "A single squad can conquer a world" is part hyperbole and part Imperial propaganda. Maybe a singe squad can perform actions that greatly assist in the conquest of a world but it's ultimately up to the Imperial Guard to actually take and hold territory.
Ten Space Marines are physically incapable of holding a planet alone, no matter how shooty their guns are, how choppy they are or how tough they are.
I do not doubt this.
However, they can still be instrumental in taking a planet, because as your dog-standard rebel leader, you don't really have any way to stop them from rampaging through your men at leisure.
A massive distraction if I ever saw one- especially if they drop down right outside the enemy HQ. In addition to being a hammer blow to enemy morale.
It takes months of planning, untold man power and logistics to invade a small country, let along control it. If hundreds of Space marines dropped out of the sky today and started quickly hunting down and killing targets, they would not last a week before we eliminated them.
Its just a dumb thing that GW adds to their already crazy and vague fluff without much thought put behind it.
Like you, I do not see it being possible. The only useful things Space marines can do is support an Imperial Guard force, or go hunting for lost artifacts.
I do hate Space Marines though so I am a little biased. But there is no way even a thousand marines could conquer a planet similar to ours in terms of population etc. let alone anything bigger.
Wat.
Even just a Chapter would kick the absolute gak out of the modern world. We don't have any weapons capable of harming them that we can reliably depend on to do so that can track and hit an infantry target capable of killing tanks with its fists. fething hell, I mean they can tank shots from MBT's and take out our CAS with their "small arms" fire. And that's not even counting special weapons, orbital support that can glass the planet, or the sheer demoralization for troops with how a single squad could go clean through a modern infantry platoon without a scratch, shoot down helicopters, and blow apart our tanks with one shot from their special or heavy weapons. We'd surrender in very short order if Adeptus Astartes showed up, mentally slowed not to do so in fact given orbital superiority.
Also, you have to remember Space Marines don't occupy a planet. They conquer it by blowing apart the leaders, communication, and major parts of the world's military. It's the guard and arbites who occupy a planet, Space Marines just pick up all their gear and leave the guard to their job.
No, space marines are a flawed and outdated concept of "bigger is better". There is nothing practical or useful about a Space marine to even be useful for anything but costing a crap ton of money. Its just childish super hero nonsense to think Space marines are as awesome as you described. In reality they wouldnt last at all in a gun fight. Bullets wont harmlessly bounce off them. The bullets would start hitting vital joints, visors and sensors, even the bolt gun would be subject to a hail of gunfire. Let alone support weapons like mortars and grenade launchers shattering ribs and shocking their targets.
There is a reason the only possible way A space marine unit can take over a planet is through the navy. Why? Because there is no logical way a space marine can win anything. Why? Because they are so stupidly written that its simply a "because space marines are cool and strong" excuse for anything they do.
I wont bother saying anymore, because I know people like SPace Marines and while I think the concept can be cool, there is no way a Space marine could do anything more than a normal soldier in combat. If anything their size and bulk would hinder them in combat. Let alone the fact that they cant help but scream running towards the enemy as their main tactic.
Space Marines are simply incapable of being efficient at anything when you think about it. Let alone how Much food a Space Marine would need to consume to stay active. They would have to carry so much food it would be a hindrance. Also think about how many Marines would die just trying to land from their Drop Pods? Nothing about them is practical or worth keeping them for.
Of course, maybe you can stretch reality better than I can.
Space marines are in 40k for the same reason the robots and monsters are in the Pacific Rim movie. mindless action that doesnt need reasoning or thought. because as soon as you think about it, it all falls apart
You really hate Space Marines, I see. Unfortunately for you your arguments hold no grounds whatsoever. Because if GW says a squad can rampage across a planet until it simply surrenders, then it can. All assuming you won't just headcanon everything away (Which I assume you have, making this discussion pointless) then you need to adapt your own views, normally designed for use in our own universe, to the setting. Okay. A squad can take a planet. Do not say 'That's ridiculous!'. Think instead. Why can they take a planet? Maybe that way? No, that's not enough. Or that? No, that's not enough either. But maybe this way? Yes, this is the only way it'd work. Then that is the way it is.
Space Marines are obviously gods of war by modern standards, given how effective they are portrayed as in warzones so much more than ours. You think they are ineffective? But they are clad in space-armour, using space-guns shooting space-bullets and punching you with space-fists. You know how the earth being round was something unthinkable centuries ago? Or how aircraft was forever doomed to be fiction? Yeah, it's the same thing. We have no idea of how these things really work, we do not know how impact-resilient Ceramite is, except by using the shown feats of Ceramite. Which are considerable.
Space Marines, to me, are one of the coolest parts of the entire setting. Normally you have sci-fi settings where big strong things are made redundant because of the ludicrous firepower available, but 40K's science fantasy blends sci-fi with classic themes like great monsters and mighty heroes laying waste to the battlefield. If you just want IGhammer 40K like it sounds, then why not just take one of the other sci-fi settings where everything dies like chumps instead of picking the one where Necrons, Ork monsters, Space Marines and Eldar (And so on) run across the battlefield and tank earth-shattering firepower, each in their own way, without breaking a sweat?
If Space Marines are strong enough to be effective despite the drawback of great size, well, then it seems they are! And since they are, they are! Logic!
It is not stupid at all when you think about it.
Welcome to 40K, leave that useless Earth logic of yours at the door and you'll find it much easier to enjoy yourself.
Simply saying GW said so kinda clearly shows that its a poorly thought out idea.
I also share the opinion that the only plausible way of Space Marines doing much is with the aid of the Imperial Guard. So really its just the Imperial Guard who conquer planets while the Space Marines help. This, combined with the effective propaganda of the imperium is why the Space Marines are considered awesome.
Im gonna go tinfoil hat and say this is because it would be too much of a strain to use the expensive poster boys to do anything it says they can, so they have enough to show their presence but the important resources are sent to the guard to produce their far more effective weapons of war.
It takes months of planning, untold man power and logistics to invade a small country, let along control it. If hundreds of Space marines dropped out of the sky today and started quickly hunting down and killing targets, they would not last a week before we eliminated them.
Its just a dumb thing that GW adds to their already crazy and vague fluff without much thought put behind it.
Like you, I do not see it being possible. The only useful things Space marines can do is support an Imperial Guard force, or go hunting for lost artifacts.
I do hate Space Marines though so I am a little biased. But there is no way even a thousand marines could conquer a planet similar to ours in terms of population etc. let alone anything bigger.
Wat.
Even just a Chapter would kick the absolute gak out of the modern world. We don't have any weapons capable of harming them that we can reliably depend on to do so that can track and hit an infantry target capable of killing tanks with its fists. fething hell, I mean they can tank shots from MBT's and take out our CAS with their "small arms" fire. And that's not even counting special weapons, orbital support that can glass the planet, or the sheer demoralization for troops with how a single squad could go clean through a modern infantry platoon without a scratch, shoot down helicopters, and blow apart our tanks with one shot from their special or heavy weapons. We'd surrender in very short order if Adeptus Astartes showed up, mentally slowed not to do so in fact given orbital superiority.
Also, you have to remember Space Marines don't occupy a planet. They conquer it by blowing apart the leaders, communication, and major parts of the world's military. It's the guard and arbites who occupy a planet, Space Marines just pick up all their gear and leave the guard to their job.
No, space marines are a flawed and outdated concept of "bigger is better". There is nothing practical or useful about a Space marine to even be useful for anything but costing a crap ton of money. Its just childish super hero nonsense to think Space marines are as awesome as you described. In reality they wouldnt last at all in a gun fight. Bullets wont harmlessly bounce off them. The bullets would start hitting vital joints, visors and sensors, even the bolt gun would be subject to a hail of gunfire. Let alone support weapons like mortars and grenade launchers shattering ribs and shocking their targets.
There is a reason the only possible way A space marine unit can take over a planet is through the navy. Why? Because there is no logical way a space marine can win anything. Why? Because they are so stupidly written that its simply a "because space marines are cool and strong" excuse for anything they do.
I wont bother saying anymore, because I know people like SPace Marines and while I think the concept can be cool, there is no way a Space marine could do anything more than a normal soldier in combat. If anything their size and bulk would hinder them in combat. Let alone the fact that they cant help but scream running towards the enemy as their main tactic.
Space Marines are simply incapable of being efficient at anything when you think about it. Let alone how Much food a Space Marine would need to consume to stay active. They would have to carry so much food it would be a hindrance. Also think about how many Marines would die just trying to land from their Drop Pods? Nothing about them is practical or worth keeping them for.
Of course, maybe you can stretch reality better than I can.
Space marines are in 40k for the same reason the robots and monsters are in the Pacific Rim movie. mindless action that doesnt need reasoning or thought. because as soon as you think about it, it all falls apart
You really hate Space Marines, I see. Unfortunately for you your arguments hold no grounds whatsoever. Because if GW says a squad can rampage across a planet until it simply surrenders, then it can. All assuming you won't just headcanon everything away (Which I assume you have, making this discussion pointless) then you need to adapt your own views, normally designed for use in our own universe, to the setting. Okay. A squad can take a planet. Do not say 'That's ridiculous!'. Think instead. Why can they take a planet? Maybe that way? No, that's not enough. Or that? No, that's not enough either. But maybe this way? Yes, this is the only way it'd work. Then that is the way it is.
Space Marines are obviously gods of war by modern standards, given how effective they are portrayed as in warzones so much more than ours. You think they are ineffective? But they are clad in space-armour, using space-guns shooting space-bullets and punching you with space-fists. You know how the earth being round was something unthinkable centuries ago? Or how aircraft was forever doomed to be fiction? Yeah, it's the same thing. We have no idea of how these things really work, we do not know how impact-resilient Ceramite is, except by using the shown feats of Ceramite. Which are considerable.
Space Marines, to me, are one of the coolest parts of the entire setting. Normally you have sci-fi settings where big strong things are made redundant because of the ludicrous firepower available, but 40K's science fantasy blends sci-fi with classic themes like great monsters and mighty heroes laying waste to the battlefield. If you just want IGhammer 40K like it sounds, then why not just take one of the other sci-fi settings where everything dies like chumps instead of picking the one where Necrons, Ork monsters, Space Marines and Eldar (And so on) run across the battlefield and tank earth-shattering firepower, each in their own way, without breaking a sweat?
If Space Marines are strong enough to be effective despite the drawback of great size, well, then it seems they are! And since they are, they are! Logic!
It is not stupid at all when you think about it.
Welcome to 40K, leave that useless Earth logic of yours at the door and you'll find it much easier to enjoy yourself.
Simply saying GW said so kinda clearly shows that its a poorly thought out idea.
I also share the opinion that the only plausible way of Space Marines doing much is with the aid of the Imperial Guard. So really its just the Imperial Guard who conquer planets while the Space Marines help. This, combined with the effective propaganda of the imperium is why the Space Marines are considered awesome.
Im gonna go tinfoil hat and say this is because it would be too much of a strain to use the expensive poster boys to do anything it says they can, so they have enough to show their presence but the importan resources are sent to the guard to produce their far more effective weapons of war.
Well of course, but that is because you are exactly like the Marine fanboys I so often see people complain on. Except that you are an IG fanboy instead of a SM one.
I mean really.
Swastakowey wrote: I also share the opinion that the only plausible way of Space Marines doing much is with the aid of the Imperial Guard.
That's just brutal, man. I thought myself a die-hard Marine fangirl, but I have never been close to suggesting that IG can only accomplish things with the aid of the SM.
Pyeatt wrote: To use the example of Navy bombing islands for days then sending marines in...
Those were typically prepared positions, tunnel systems and the likes, against enemies with hearts hardened to kill.
An orbital bombardment.. oh look, Tokyo, BOOOOM, Atlanta, BOOOOM, Detroit... well even the Astartes in space are scared of Detroit.. But you get the idea. When they can flatten every civilian population, why would they shoot at prepared positions to subjugate our planet by force?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Seems easier to do what we did to Japan in WW2... Knock out a few major cities and promise more is easily on the way.
Whoa whoa whoa, let's leave Atlanta out of this. Let's move it farther North or South.
I'm with Ash on this one and I'm an Imperial Guard fanboy to the end. Space Marines have accomplished things that the Imperial Guard could never do no matter how many men they threw at it. The Astral Knights took down a Necron Death Star by deep striking onto it and blowing it to pieces. If the Guard had tried the same they would have been beaten so hard it would have cost more resources than went into the creation and supply of the Astral Knights. Not to mention they're reliable counters to traitor marines and are shock troopers without compare. They may not be a lot of them but applied correctly their small numbers go a long way.
It takes months of planning, untold man power and logistics to invade a small country, let along control it. If hundreds of Space marines dropped out of the sky today and started quickly hunting down and killing targets, they would not last a week before we eliminated them.
Its just a dumb thing that GW adds to their already crazy and vague fluff without much thought put behind it.
Like you, I do not see it being possible. The only useful things Space marines can do is support an Imperial Guard force, or go hunting for lost artifacts.
I do hate Space Marines though so I am a little biased. But there is no way even a thousand marines could conquer a planet similar to ours in terms of population etc. let alone anything bigger.
Wat.
Even just a Chapter would kick the absolute gak out of the modern world. We don't have any weapons capable of harming them that we can reliably depend on to do so that can track and hit an infantry target capable of killing tanks with its fists. fething hell, I mean they can tank shots from MBT's and take out our CAS with their "small arms" fire. And that's not even counting special weapons, orbital support that can glass the planet, or the sheer demoralization for troops with how a single squad could go clean through a modern infantry platoon without a scratch, shoot down helicopters, and blow apart our tanks with one shot from their special or heavy weapons. We'd surrender in very short order if Adeptus Astartes showed up, mentally slowed not to do so in fact given orbital superiority.
Also, you have to remember Space Marines don't occupy a planet. They conquer it by blowing apart the leaders, communication, and major parts of the world's military. It's the guard and arbites who occupy a planet, Space Marines just pick up all their gear and leave the guard to their job.
No, space marines are a flawed and outdated concept of "bigger is better". There is nothing practical or useful about a Space marine to even be useful for anything but costing a crap ton of money. Its just childish super hero nonsense to think Space marines are as awesome as you described. In reality they wouldnt last at all in a gun fight. Bullets wont harmlessly bounce off them. The bullets would start hitting vital joints, visors and sensors, even the bolt gun would be subject to a hail of gunfire. Let alone support weapons like mortars and grenade launchers shattering ribs and shocking their targets.
There is a reason the only possible way A space marine unit can take over a planet is through the navy. Why? Because there is no logical way a space marine can win anything. Why? Because they are so stupidly written that its simply a "because space marines are cool and strong" excuse for anything they do.
I wont bother saying anymore, because I know people like SPace Marines and while I think the concept can be cool, there is no way a Space marine could do anything more than a normal soldier in combat. If anything their size and bulk would hinder them in combat. Let alone the fact that they cant help but scream running towards the enemy as their main tactic.
Space Marines are simply incapable of being efficient at anything when you think about it. Let alone how Much food a Space Marine would need to consume to stay active. They would have to carry so much food it would be a hindrance. Also think about how many Marines would die just trying to land from their Drop Pods? Nothing about them is practical or worth keeping them for.
Of course, maybe you can stretch reality better than I can.
Space marines are in 40k for the same reason the robots and monsters are in the Pacific Rim movie. mindless action that doesnt need reasoning or thought. because as soon as you think about it, it all falls apart
You really hate Space Marines, I see. Unfortunately for you your arguments hold no grounds whatsoever. Because if GW says a squad can rampage across a planet until it simply surrenders, then it can. All assuming you won't just headcanon everything away (Which I assume you have, making this discussion pointless) then you need to adapt your own views, normally designed for use in our own universe, to the setting. Okay. A squad can take a planet. Do not say 'That's ridiculous!'. Think instead. Why can they take a planet? Maybe that way? No, that's not enough. Or that? No, that's not enough either. But maybe this way? Yes, this is the only way it'd work. Then that is the way it is.
Space Marines are obviously gods of war by modern standards, given how effective they are portrayed as in warzones so much more than ours. You think they are ineffective? But they are clad in space-armour, using space-guns shooting space-bullets and punching you with space-fists. You know how the earth being round was something unthinkable centuries ago? Or how aircraft was forever doomed to be fiction? Yeah, it's the same thing. We have no idea of how these things really work, we do not know how impact-resilient Ceramite is, except by using the shown feats of Ceramite. Which are considerable.
Space Marines, to me, are one of the coolest parts of the entire setting. Normally you have sci-fi settings where big strong things are made redundant because of the ludicrous firepower available, but 40K's science fantasy blends sci-fi with classic themes like great monsters and mighty heroes laying waste to the battlefield. If you just want IGhammer 40K like it sounds, then why not just take one of the other sci-fi settings where everything dies like chumps instead of picking the one where Necrons, Ork monsters, Space Marines and Eldar (And so on) run across the battlefield and tank earth-shattering firepower, each in their own way, without breaking a sweat?
If Space Marines are strong enough to be effective despite the drawback of great size, well, then it seems they are! And since they are, they are! Logic!
It is not stupid at all when you think about it.
Welcome to 40K, leave that useless Earth logic of yours at the door and you'll find it much easier to enjoy yourself.
Simply saying GW said so kinda clearly shows that its a poorly thought out idea.
I also share the opinion that the only plausible way of Space Marines doing much is with the aid of the Imperial Guard. So really its just the Imperial Guard who conquer planets while the Space Marines help. This, combined with the effective propaganda of the imperium is why the Space Marines are considered awesome.
Im gonna go tinfoil hat and say this is because it would be too much of a strain to use the expensive poster boys to do anything it says they can, so they have enough to show their presence but the importan resources are sent to the guard to produce their far more effective weapons of war.
Well of course, but that is because you are exactly like the Marine fanboys I so often see people complain on. Except that you are an IG fanboy instead of a SM one.
I mean really.
Swastakowey wrote: I also share the opinion that the only plausible way of Space Marines doing much is with the aid of the Imperial Guard.
That's just brutal, man. I thought myself a die-hard Marine fangirl, but I have never been close to suggesting that IG can only accomplish things with the aid of the SM.
You take this to a whole new level.
I wouldnt call myself a Guard fan boy. So much of that is just as dumb. But at least some of it isnt crazy and thats why I like them. The reason I like Guard is for example the las gun has had a lot more thought behind why they have it. The bolt gun is there just because (to put it very simply of course). Just the Imperial guard has more basis in reality than say space marines or demons. So I find the imperial Guard a nice compromise of the best of both worlds.
But dont worry. Being like me sucks I cant even watch action movies or anything because of how ridiculous I find them all. Id much rather read my history books or documentaries. So its a curse not a blessing. I wish I could think like you and enjoy things "just because".
Earth's history is full of tiny forces conquering entire nations given a technological advantage, some luck, a bit of ruthlessness and a weakened target. The most classic example is the Spanish and the Aztecs of course, but there are many more.
Could a squad of space marines personally conquer earth if humanity was united against them and willing to die to dive them off? No. In game terms they're barely equal to 100 mook humans. Fluff is kinder to them, but even then it seems beyond reasonable. They might kill a great many leaders, but all that would do would give the problem of having no one who could surrender to them.
Could a squad of space marines (with a ship and some support) conquer earth today? Sure. Divide and conquer. Sow confusion and discord. Claim to be the salvation of the downtrodden. Get one group of natives beating on the other other, provide overwhelming force at the critical point in the conflict, install yourself as God-Kings. It's worked many times in the past.
Ashiraya wrote: Because if GW says a squad can rampage across a planet until it simply surrenders, then it can.
No, it really can't. The only way to resolve this in any sensible way is to remember that part where GW explicitly says that 40k's stories are full of myths/exaggerations/long-forgotten history/etc. Stories of a squad of marines rampaging across a planet are best explained as in-universe propaganda about the Imperium's saints and martyrs. Just like you wouldn't take a story about Zeus smiting everything in his path (and then turning into an animal for some really kinky sex) literally you shouldn't take the absurd stories of space marines literally.
(Of course out-of-universe we know that the problem is just the writers having no sense of scale, so we could also just dismiss it as bad writing that shouldn't be canon.)
We have no idea of how these things really work, we do not know how impact-resilient Ceramite is, except by using the shown feats of Ceramite. Which are considerable.
Except we do know how durable ceramite is, relative to the weapons in its setting. We know that it provides pretty good protection against small arms (but not so good that marines never need to take cover against incoming fire), limited protection against medium-strength weapons like autocannons/heavy bolters/etc, and no protection against the heaviest weapons like a plasma cannon. From this we can conclude that a single marine squad would have no chance of taking an entire planet, since that planet would have thousands (or millions!) of marine-killing krak missiles for every marine, and even an incompetent conscript can press the "kill the space marine" button and let the guided missile do the rest.
Space Marines, to me, are one of the coolest parts of the entire setting. Normally you have sci-fi settings where big strong things are made redundant because of the ludicrous firepower available, but 40K's science fantasy blends sci-fi with classic themes like great monsters and mighty heroes laying waste to the battlefield. If you just want IGhammer 40K like it sounds, then why not just take one of the other sci-fi settings where everything dies like chumps instead of picking the one where Necrons, Ork monsters, Space Marines and Eldar (And so on) run across the battlefield and tank earth-shattering firepower, each in their own way, without breaking a sweat?
Except that's not what we see. In the real version of 40k we see that marines are fairly durable elite infantry, but still die like everyone else against the big guns. Power armor is a 3+ armor save, not a 2++ that can be re-rolled as many times as you want. Granted, the D6 system involves a degree of abstraction, but I don't find it very plausible that power armor is many orders of magnitude more durable than how it is portrayed in the games.
And really, why would you want a setting where marines were that powerful? Playing a video game in god mode gets boring very quickly, and that's what you'd have. It's hard to care about how "brave" the hero is when they're literally invulnerable to anything the enemy can throw at them and the only question in whether they will win is whether they have enough bullets to kill everything.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kestral wrote: Could a squad of space marines (with a ship and some support) conquer earth today? Sure. Divide and conquer. Sow confusion and discord. Claim to be the salvation of the downtrodden. Get one group of natives beating on the other other, provide overwhelming force at the critical point in the conflict, install yourself as God-Kings. It's worked many times in the past.
That would be completely unfluffy for space marines. They aren't philosophers and leaders and manipulators, they're rabid attack dogs that the Imperium points at something that needs killing spectacularly and watches from a safe distance.
It takes months of planning, untold man power and logistics to invade a small country, let along control it. If hundreds of Space marines dropped out of the sky today and started quickly hunting down and killing targets, they would not last a week before we eliminated them.
Its just a dumb thing that GW adds to their already crazy and vague fluff without much thought put behind it.
Like you, I do not see it being possible. The only useful things Space marines can do is support an Imperial Guard force, or go hunting for lost artifacts.
I do hate Space Marines though so I am a little biased. But there is no way even a thousand marines could conquer a planet similar to ours in terms of population etc. let alone anything bigger.
Wat.
Even just a Chapter would kick the absolute gak out of the modern world. We don't have any weapons capable of harming them that we can reliably depend on to do so that can track and hit an infantry target capable of killing tanks with its fists. fething hell, I mean they can tank shots from MBT's and take out our CAS with their "small arms" fire. And that's not even counting special weapons, orbital support that can glass the planet, or the sheer demoralization for troops with how a single squad could go clean through a modern infantry platoon without a scratch, shoot down helicopters, and blow apart our tanks with one shot from their special or heavy weapons. We'd surrender in very short order if Adeptus Astartes showed up, mentally slowed not to do so in fact given orbital superiority.
Also, you have to remember Space Marines don't occupy a planet. They conquer it by blowing apart the leaders, communication, and major parts of the world's military. It's the guard and arbites who occupy a planet, Space Marines just pick up all their gear and leave the guard to their job.
No, space marines are a flawed and outdated concept of "bigger is better". There is nothing practical or useful about a Space marine to even be useful for anything but costing a crap ton of money. Its just childish super hero nonsense to think Space marines are as awesome as you described. In reality they wouldnt last at all in a gun fight. Bullets wont harmlessly bounce off them. The bullets would start hitting vital joints, visors and sensors, even the bolt gun would be subject to a hail of gunfire. Let alone support weapons like mortars and grenade launchers shattering ribs and shocking their targets.
There is a reason the only possible way A space marine unit can take over a planet is through the navy. Why? Because there is no logical way a space marine can win anything. Why? Because they are so stupidly written that its simply a "because space marines are cool and strong" excuse for anything they do.
I wont bother saying anymore, because I know people like SPace Marines and while I think the concept can be cool, there is no way a Space marine could do anything more than a normal soldier in combat. If anything their size and bulk would hinder them in combat. Let alone the fact that they cant help but scream running towards the enemy as their main tactic.
Space Marines are simply incapable of being efficient at anything when you think about it. Let alone how Much food a Space Marine would need to consume to stay active. They would have to carry so much food it would be a hindrance. Also think about how many Marines would die just trying to land from their Drop Pods? Nothing about them is practical or worth keeping them for.
Of course, maybe you can stretch reality better than I can.
Space marines are in 40k for the same reason the robots and monsters are in the Pacific Rim movie. mindless action that doesnt need reasoning or thought. because as soon as you think about it, it all falls apart
Congratulations on knowing jack gak about Astartes. Astartes are posthuman monsters that can survive heavy bolter fire, autocannons, artillery, and even a Leman Russ Battlecannon without being even severely injured. They have milisecond to microsecond reaction times and can dodge projectile speeds up to the hypersonic. They're literal aimbots that can automatically snap shots off thanks to their autosenses that only miss when hit by immense shockwaves (such as a Strike Cruise going under reentry). Their basic firearm, the bolter, is capable of killing our APC's and helicopters, special ammunition would certainly kill modern armor, including Abrams. Their special and heavy weapons- lascannons, plasma guns, meltas, plasma cannons, etc would one-hit-kill all modern vehicles and CAS.
Also, you have to be really ignorant to think power armor impinges on movement or speed considering Astartes can run an average of something like forty or even fifty miles per hour. Space Marines don't sack planets because of orbital support. They sack planets because they're around street-level Marvel mutants.
Oh, and now it's quote time.
“That’s why we’re here. Mercutian is already dying, and the head wound Uzas is wearing doesn’t look like it’s left him all in one piece, either. His skull is bare to the bone, and we left one of his eyes back in the chamber where Third Claw died.’”
Pg.267 Void Stalker
Astartes survives having his head burned down to the skull and loses an eye, still alive despite the injuries.
“‘Sire, I believe we should save them for–’ The human said nothing more. The front of his face came free with a sickly crack, the flesh and jagged bone crunching in the Night Lord’s fist. Talos ignored the body as it toppled, spilling the insides of its halved skull onto the decking. No one had even seen him move, such was the prophet’s speed, clearing ten metres and vaulting a console table in the time it took a human heart to beat once.”
Pg.93 VS
Astartes runs around thirty feet, vaults a table, and rips the front of a man's face off in around 1.5 seconds.
”Ezrachi heard that he was so unrelenting on the battlefield that on the midnight plains of Menga-Dardra, a Black Legion Land Raider slammed into him with its dozer blade, ran him down and crushed him beneath its tracks, only for the mauled and buckled Skase to get back to his feet and rush back into the heart of the fighting.”
Pg.206 LotD
Astartes got ran over by a Land Raider, got back up when it passed over him and continued to fight.
“The full weight of the advancing Cholercaust was behind the thick metal, with row upon blood-crazed row charging forwards against each other and the Mausoleum door in an effort to earn the Blood God’s favour and end an Adeptus Astartes. The Scourge and Brother Novah continued in their desperate, marble-grazing efforts. Ishmael turned his unseeing eyes on his brothers. Novah was nearest, so Novah died first. Ishmael spun around and buried a crackling claw all the way up to the knuckle in the Fifth Company standard bearer. The standard itself jangled to the floor, and as Ishmael retracted his devastating talons, the butchered Excoriator followed it. Kersh immediately felt the effect on the door as hundreds of the Blood God’s servants lent their weight to an irresistible entrance.
Scrabbling beneath the warpstream, Skase joined his corpus-captain on the door. Launching their armoured frames at the adamantium alloy with renewed fervour, the Excoriators slammed it closed, shearing off the twitching limbs of slave-soldiers clawing their way through. As Skase held the great door closed, Kersh hauled at the pinion mechanism that drove a heavy adamantium bar across the portal and into the wall.”
Pg.717 LotD
Astartes overpower hundreds of men and slam a door shut with enough force to cut the limbs off those prying to get inside.
“But the rest of his retort was swallowed in a thunderous explosion as the tank outside fired its battle cannon into the derelict building. The blast pulverised a ten-metre-wide section of the building’s front entrance, showering the Astartes in a hail of jagged stone and metal.”
Pg.202 FA
Battlecannon blows apart a ten meter wide wall reinforced with metal (probably rebar). Becomes relevant below...
“Nemiel watched the Astartes race up to the street corner and put their backs to a burnt-out storefront, their bolters held across their chests. One of the two warriors – Brother Cortus, Nemiel thought – slid to the end of the wall and peered around the corner.
Nemiel heard the battle cannon fire and watched the corner of the building Coitus was standing at disintegrate in the space of a single heartbeat. The two Astartes disappeared in a blizzard of pulverised stone and fragments of structural steel. A billowing cloud of dust and smoke enveloped the intersection and rolled down the street towards the rest of the squad.
The squad took cover on reflex, crouching behind rubble piles or pressing close to a building wall. Nemiel checked his helmet display and saw the status icon for Brother Cortus flash from green to amber. He was wounded, perhaps seriously, but still functional. The walls of the building must have shielded the Astartes from the worst of the blast.
Less than a minute later Brother Yung emerged from the smoke cloud, his black armour caked with brown dust. He was half-carrying, half-dragging Brother Cortus. Nemiel rose from cover and jogged forward as Yung set the wounded warrior down next to the shattered stoop of a hab unit. Cortus reached up and fumbled with his helmet. One side of the ceramite helm had been partially crushed, shattering the right ocular and splitting it from crown to nape. Yung lent a hand and helped the wounded Astartes pull the helmet free.
‘Status?’ Nemiel asked.
Brother Cortus sent the smashed helmet bouncing across the street. The skin on the right side of his face had been deeply scored by the impact, peeling away the flesh down to the bone in some places. His right eye was a bloody ruin, but the wound was clotting quickly thanks to Cortus’s enhanced healing ability.
‘One battle tank and four APCs, three hundred metres south,’ he said, his voice rough with pain. ‘Approximately a platoon of infantry in hasty defensive positions, maybe more.’
‘I was talking about your head, brother.’
Cortus glanced dazedly at the Redemptor, blinking his one good eye. ‘Oh, that,’ he said dismissively. ‘It’s nothing. Did anyone see what happened to my bolter?’”
Pg.188 FA
Astartes survive the afromentioned battlecannon that destroyed afromentioned wall.
“The Librarian hurled himself to the side just as the creature lunged into the squad’s midst with the force of a runaway train.
With a shout, Zahariel spun to face the beast as the queen gathered herself together like a coiling spring and lashed out again, this time catching Gideon and two of the corpses in its wide mandibles. The curved pincers snapped shut like a giant scissors. The two corpses were bisected at once; Gideon’s armour resisted a half-second longer before giving way as well.
A bolt pistol barked; Gideon, lying in a pool of his own blood, had reloaded his weapon and was snapping careful shots at the worm’s eyes. Two burst apart in a shower of ichor, causing the queen to thrash and shriek in pain, but the wounds didn’t seem to slow the creature in the slightest.
‘What of Brother Gideon?’ Zahariel asked.
‘Comatose. His armour is keeping his vital signs stable enough that we should be able to get him back to Aldurukh.’”
Pgs.325-326 FA
Astartes can survive being cut in half. Albeit they do need a medivac.
“Kohl and Ephrial exchanged fire with them, dropping several with well-aimed shots. A burst of heavy bolter fire answered them, stitching the two Astartes with a stream of shells. Both warriors staggered beneath the hits, but their armour turned aside the blows.”
Pg.411 FA
Astartes tank heavy bolter shells.
“”Brother Vardus opened fire a second later, raking the rear Testudo with an extended burst of heavy bolter fire. The mass-reactive rounds exploded against the APC’s armoured hide and gouged craters in its solid tyres. Here and there the rounds found a seam in the armour plates and penetrated into the APC, wreaking bloody havoc on the men crammed within. The Testudo lurched to a stop, smoke pouring from the holes punched in its side.”
Pg.165 FA
Heavy bolters in the same novel are capable of killing an APC.
“They’d run for only a few hundred metres when just ahead they saw a platoon of skitarii jog into view, dragging four lascannons mounted on wheeled gun carriages. They saw the Astartes at almost the same instant; with three hundred metres between them, the enemy troops hurriedly dropped the trails on the four guns and began to frantically wheel them around to bear on the squad.
‘Charge!’ Nemiel cried, but the rest of squad hardly needed prompting. They broke into a full run, firing their bolters as they went.
Nemiel watched the mass-reactive shells strike the armoured splinter plates of the gun carriages and ricochet harmlessly away. The crews worked quickly and with remarkable precision, connecting the weapons to their power units and energising the guns in the space of seconds. If they had been preparing to fire on human troops, it might have been enough, but the Astartes reached the enemy with seconds to spare.
They leapt up and over the lascannons’ splinter shields and came down among the shocked gun crews. ”
Pg.470 FA
Astartes run a couple hundred meters in a handful of seconds.
“The strength in his arms built, the strength to shatter steel and buckle the hull of an armoured vehicle. He pictured exactly where his fists would strike.”
Pg.143 A Thousand Sons
Astartes fists can shatter steal and dent tanks.
” In the material realm, an Astartes could fight for weeks on end without rest…”
Pg.183 ATS
Astartes can fight for a week or more without REM sleep.
“He could hear Maion’s footsteps as he moved down the corridor; the other Flesh Tearer was halfway to the stairs, the fizz of the electrical cables as they spat in their death throes… and the shifting of metal – Harahel pivoted left as a grenade hit the ground. His ocular sensors dimmed, shielding his eyes from the piercing flash that flooded the chamber. With a dense clatter, a half-dozen of the ceiling grilles fell to the ground. A cluster of figures in sodden fatigues dropped down after them and opened fire. ‘Contact!’ Harahel shouted into the vox even as a hail of las-fire pattered off his armour.
Bathed in blood-spatter and faced with an opponent whose armour bore their comrade’s eviscerated innards, the traitors fell back. One held his ground, staring wide-eyed at Harahel as he pulled a clutch of grenades from a harness. Harahel decapitated the man as he advanced on the others. The grenades fell from the headless corpse’s fingers. A cloud of flame and shrapnel washed over Harahel’s battle-plate as they detonated. A slew of warnings lit up on the Flesh Tearer’s retinal display. Harahel blinked them away; his armour’s integrity was intact. Ahead of him, the traitors had rallied behind a pillar. He could see the fear on their gaunt faces as he emerged unscathed from the billowing fire.”
Pgs.7+9+10 H&B 15 – Beneath the Flesh
Grenades do nothing to power armor, and are not even considered threats.
“but stopped as weapons fire erupted from within. A noise like the birth of thunder filled the corridor as a heavy weapon roared. The sergeant jerked backwards as high-calibre rounds slammed into his armour, pitting the ceramite. His own shot went wide as a round clipped his gauntlet, the plasma blast scorching the ceiling. Barbelo dropped his chin and raised his shoulder as another torrent of rounds hammered him. Even as his pauldron cracked, the icon of the Chapter blasted from his shoulder in a shower of splintered ceramite, the sergeant took a step forward. Maion recognised the harsh bark of an autocannon as the traitors poured fire onto Barbelo – the sergeant’s armour would not hold. Maion lunged forward, tossed a frag grenade into the room, grabbed Barbelo’s gorget, and pulled him back into the corridor. ‘You dare!’ The sergeant snarled at Maion, back-fisting him across the helm. Maion staggered cursing. With disciplined restraint he quashed the rage boiling up inside him. ‘Calm yourself brother. To proceed would have been folly.’”
Pg.12 H&B 15 – Beneath the Flesh
Astartes tanks autocannon fire with no real danger to himself.
“‘Micos?’ Nisroc’s vox went unanswered. He turned to the other Flesh Tearer. ‘I am fine, Apothecary,’ Micos snarled, throwing his ruined helmet across the chamber. ‘A flesh wound. ’ The Apothecary cast his gaze over Micos. A blackened hole sat where his right eye should have been and his face was a mess of dark scabs. ‘As you say, brother.’”
Pg.17-18 H&B 15 – Beneath the Flesh
Missing an eye and having your face torn up is merely a flesh wound to an Astartes.
“With a small movement, the warrior raised the barrel of his bolter and shot the Governor at point-blank range, blasting his body apart.”
Pg.600 Nemesis
Bolters blow humanoids apart.
Amaru sprinted from the corridor firing, Maion close behind him. ‘Fall back to the missile silo.’ The Techmarine dropped to one knee to avoid a plasma round, the arms of his servo-harness whirring as they turned to return fire. The Chaos plasma gunner died in a heartbeat, dissected by the merciless cutting lasers.”
Pgs.11-12+16 H&B 16
Techmarine dodges a plasma short, which is either high supersonic or hypersonic, as plasma is mentioned previously in the novel to travel faster than a bolt.
“A figure advanced from the doorway, his armoured back filling the viewer. The Guardsmen opened fire. Untroubled, the attacker fired back. The unmistakable muzzle flash of a boltgun illuminated the Angorians as they flipped backwards, torn apart by the mass-reactive rounds.”
Pg.21 H&B 16
Lasgun fire doesn't really do anything to power armor.
“wakefulness. His cheek was wet, and he could feel fluid pooling. Rafen blinked, scanning the visible glyphs across the line of his field of vision. His helmet had been damaged, along with some of the actuators in his legs, but the cowl of ceramite and steel that surrounded him had taken the brunt of the crash. He took stock of himself, feeling for injuries. Some minor breaks in his bones, contusions and the like, things that would have been deadly to a common human but little more than an irritant to a Space Marine.”
Pg.223 H&B 16 – Redeemed
Astartes falls several kilometers down an elevator shaft, is largely unharmed.
“The captain had no time to react – a blur of dark grey shoved her aside. Before she’d even blinked, Arvas was kicking and dangling above the ground, held aloft by Argel Tal’s fist around his throat. ”
Pg.420 FTH
In around 350 milliseconds, Tal shoves aside a woman, charges forward, and grabs Arvas.
“The Hall of Tra was cold and lightless. His wolf-eye caught the ghost radiation of barely smouldering firepits. In terms of heat and light, the Wolves were making no allowances for human tolerances of comfort. They had given him a pelt and an eye to see through the dark with. What more could he want?
He realised he wasn’t alone. The company was all around him. Their body heat was barely detectable, dimmer than the dull firepits. The Hall was a massive natural cavern, ragged and irregular, and the Astartes were ranged around it, huddled and coiled in their furs, as immobile as a sibling pack of predators, gone to ground overnight, dormant and pressed close for warmth.
The Upplander’s breath was steaming the frigid air, but barely a curl escaped Ogvai’s mouth alongside his words. Astartes biology was marvellously adapted for heat retention.”
Pg.107 Prospero Burns
Astartes biology masks their body temperature to appear dimmer than warmed coals.
“In a heartbeat that vision changed from a place of wonder to a place of death. The first enemy artillery shells screamed down and exploded above the plateau in a storm of deafening horror. Air-bursting warheads flensed the ground with a hellstorm of red-hot steel fragments; some no larger than a fingernail, others like scything axe-heads, and the carnage Honsou saw a man shredded to the bone, his skeleton pulped to a rubbery mass a second later by the pounding shockwave of detonation. A group of near-naked slaves with heavy picks slung over their shoulders vanished in a fiery mass of swirling fragments, their remains no longer recognisable as human. Hundreds died in the first instants of the barrage, and a hundred more in the rippling firestorm that followed. Honsou heard their screams, but paid them no mind.
Something struck the side of Honsou’s helmet like the thunder hammer of a Dreadnought and he was sent flying. A body flashed past him, and he braced for impact as the clashing, intersecting waves of force flung him about like a leaf in a storm. He hit the ground hard and skidded across the cratered rubble of the plateau. After a quick check to make sure he still had all his limbs, Honsou pushed himself to his knees with his entrenching tool. The sky rippled with orange and red streamers of arcing shells and fiery detonations, but it felt distant and somehow unreal. The smell of cooking meat came to him, and Honsou looked down to see a long shard of shell casing jutting from the centre of his breastplate. The metal sizzled, and it was still possible to make out a white eagle and read the stencilled lettering on its side. He grunted and pulled the fragment from his body. Its tip was sharpened to a dagger point, the last ten centimetres coated in blood. ‘You don’t get me that easy,’ he snarled, standing calmly in the midst of the barrage.”
Pg.36 H&B 17
Astartes hit by artillery shell, survives with minimal injuries.
“Space Marine armour was an insulated exterior of ceramite and adamantium, almost invisible to thermal or heat detection.” / Blood Gorgons, p.41 - **
Power armor is almost invisible to infrared, good luck using heat guided rounds.
More later if needed. But I think you get the point that Space Marines are posthuman glorious abominations that are around street level in Marvel, and they're a bloody army.
Ashiraya wrote: Because if GW says a squad can rampage across a planet until it simply surrenders, then it can.
No, it really can't. The only way to resolve this in any sensible way is to remember that part where GW explicitly says that 40k's stories are full of myths/exaggerations/long-forgotten history/etc. Stories of a squad of marines rampaging across a planet are best explained as in-universe propaganda about the Imperium's saints and martyrs. Just like you wouldn't take a story about Zeus smiting everything in his path (and then turning into an animal for some really kinky sex) literally you shouldn't take the absurd stories of space marines literally.
(Of course out-of-universe we know that the problem is just the writers having no sense of scale, so we could also just dismiss it as bad writing that shouldn't be canon.)
We have no idea of how these things really work, we do not know how impact-resilient Ceramite is, except by using the shown feats of Ceramite. Which are considerable.
Except we do know how durable ceramite is, relative to the weapons in its setting. We know that it provides pretty good protection against small arms (but not so good that marines never need to take cover against incoming fire), limited protection against medium-strength weapons like autocannons/heavy bolters/etc, and no protection against the heaviest weapons like a plasma cannon. From this we can conclude that a single marine squad would have no chance of taking an entire planet, since that planet would have thousands (or millions!) of marine-killing krak missiles for every marine, and even an incompetent conscript can press the "kill the space marine" button and let the guided missile do the rest.
Space Marines, to me, are one of the coolest parts of the entire setting. Normally you have sci-fi settings where big strong things are made redundant because of the ludicrous firepower available, but 40K's science fantasy blends sci-fi with classic themes like great monsters and mighty heroes laying waste to the battlefield. If you just want IGhammer 40K like it sounds, then why not just take one of the other sci-fi settings where everything dies like chumps instead of picking the one where Necrons, Ork monsters, Space Marines and Eldar (And so on) run across the battlefield and tank earth-shattering firepower, each in their own way, without breaking a sweat?
Except that's not what we see. In the real version of 40k we see that marines are fairly durable elite infantry, but still die like everyone else against the big guns. Power armor is a 3+ armor save, not a 2++ that can be re-rolled as many times as you want. Granted, the D6 system involves a degree of abstraction, but I don't find it very plausible that power armor is many orders of magnitude more durable than how it is portrayed in the games.
And really, why would you want a setting where marines were that powerful? Playing a video game in god mode gets boring very quickly, and that's what you'd have. It's hard to care about how "brave" the hero is when they're literally invulnerable to anything the enemy can throw at them and the only question in whether they will win is whether they have enough bullets to kill everything.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kestral wrote: Could a squad of space marines (with a ship and some support) conquer earth today? Sure. Divide and conquer. Sow confusion and discord. Claim to be the salvation of the downtrodden. Get one group of natives beating on the other other, provide overwhelming force at the critical point in the conflict, install yourself as God-Kings. It's worked many times in the past.
That would be completely unfluffy for space marines. They aren't philosophers and leaders and manipulators, they're rabid attack dogs that the Imperium points at something that needs killing spectacularly and watches from a safe distance.
I do not argue game mechanics. Game mechanics are game mechanics, fluff is fluff. It is in GWs financial interest to not make SM too strong on the tabletop, because then everyone would just buy a few of them and get a cheap army of decent points.
As for the toughness of PA, do I need to bring up examples of Marines literally shrugging off clusters of frag grenades or (My favourite quote) of how a squad of CSM basically beats up a company of IG like it was a hobby to them, whipping them to death with their own tank treads etc.
You call it absurd, I call it thematic. 40K does not have to share the values modern day Earth does.
As for the most interesting of your questions, why this is so strong Marines interesting?
Space Marines bite hard, yes, but the setting bites back! Your SM squad may carve their way through a company without as much as taking damage, but there's billions of guardsmen for each Marine. Eldar and Necrons can arguably match Marines in sheer battle prowess, as can Tyranids. Orks bring numbers and toughness, and so on. I consider the idea of Marines being as weak as you imply implausible; the only way a million Marines can be seen as a faction in their own right next to the others is if they bring such truly ludicrous force concentration that most other forces just crumble. The fact that SM are so strong but still are too few to stop the descent of the Imperium only adds to the grimdark. YMMV.
Find me an example in nature where a creature the size of walking cattle can move fast enough to dodge hypersonic projectiles? Its physically impossible.
That there is enough of a reason why Space Marines are just stupidly plot armoured with little thought put behind them.
Quote bad writing all you want, but quoting that writing is the equivalent of 2 children arguing over whose imaginary creature is better.
"My monster can move the speed of light!"
"Oh yea? Mine can move the speed of light AND has bullets faster than the speed of light!"
See how terrible GW writing can be for Space Marines (the worst offenders)?
Im not gonna argue with GW fluff (remember, this is the company that wrote in the 5th edition codex that there was an imperial AAA unit that had a kill to death ratio of 999,999,999 to 1 or something equally stupid). So I wont bother arguing because you clearly are using the equivalent of propaganda to justify more propaganda.
kestral wrote: Earth's history is full of tiny forces conquering entire nations given a technological advantage, some luck, a bit of ruthlessness and a weakened target. The most classic example is the Spanish and the Aztecs of course, but there are many more.
That example is irrelevant due to the fact that smallpox killed the Aztecs and their rivals not the Spanish. 300 conquistadors alone with the never-commanded-anything-in-battle-before Hernan Cortes would have their butts handed to them.
Could a squad of space marines personally conquer earth if humanity was united against them and willing to die to dive them off? No. In game terms they're barely equal to 100 mook humans. Fluff is kinder to them, but even then it seems beyond reasonable. They might kill a great many leaders, but all that would do would give the problem of having no one who could surrender to them.
To assume that we wouldn't be able to safely guard our top leaders from surgical strikes seems a bit off. After the fourth time the marines come crashing through a bunker with a metal sky torpedo full of marines we would widen up to it and find a way to combat its effectiveness.
Could a squad of space marines (with a ship and some support) conquer earth today? Sure. Divide and conquer. Sow confusion and discord. Claim to be the salvation of the downtrodden. Get one group of natives beating on the other other, provide overwhelming force at the critical point in the conflict, install yourself as God-Kings. It's worked many times in the past.
I like to think that we aren't that stupid. But I could be completely wrong.
Ashiraya wrote: Because if GW says a squad can rampage across a planet until it simply surrenders, then it can.
No, it really can't. The only way to resolve this in any sensible way is to remember that part where GW explicitly says that 40k's stories are full of myths/exaggerations/long-forgotten history/etc. Stories of a squad of marines rampaging across a planet are best explained as in-universe propaganda about the Imperium's saints and martyrs. Just like you wouldn't take a story about Zeus smiting everything in his path (and then turning into an animal for some really kinky sex) literally you shouldn't take the absurd stories of space marines literally.
(Of course out-of-universe we know that the problem is just the writers having no sense of scale, so we could also just dismiss it as bad writing that shouldn't be canon.)
We have no idea of how these things really work, we do not know how impact-resilient Ceramite is, except by using the shown feats of Ceramite. Which are considerable.
Except we do know how durable ceramite is, relative to the weapons in its setting. We know that it provides pretty good protection against small arms (but not so good that marines never need to take cover against incoming fire), limited protection against medium-strength weapons like autocannons/heavy bolters/etc, and no protection against the heaviest weapons like a plasma cannon. From this we can conclude that a single marine squad would have no chance of taking an entire planet, since that planet would have thousands (or millions!) of marine-killing krak missiles for every marine, and even an incompetent conscript can press the "kill the space marine" button and let the guided missile do the rest.
Space Marines, to me, are one of the coolest parts of the entire setting. Normally you have sci-fi settings where big strong things are made redundant because of the ludicrous firepower available, but 40K's science fantasy blends sci-fi with classic themes like great monsters and mighty heroes laying waste to the battlefield. If you just want IGhammer 40K like it sounds, then why not just take one of the other sci-fi settings where everything dies like chumps instead of picking the one where Necrons, Ork monsters, Space Marines and Eldar (And so on) run across the battlefield and tank earth-shattering firepower, each in their own way, without breaking a sweat?
Except that's not what we see. In the real version of 40k we see that marines are fairly durable elite infantry, but still die like everyone else against the big guns. Power armor is a 3+ armor save, not a 2++ that can be re-rolled as many times as you want. Granted, the D6 system involves a degree of abstraction, but I don't find it very plausible that power armor is many orders of magnitude more durable than how it is portrayed in the games.
And really, why would you want a setting where marines were that powerful? Playing a video game in god mode gets boring very quickly, and that's what you'd have. It's hard to care about how "brave" the hero is when they're literally invulnerable to anything the enemy can throw at them and the only question in whether they will win is whether they have enough bullets to kill everything.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kestral wrote: Could a squad of space marines (with a ship and some support) conquer earth today? Sure. Divide and conquer. Sow confusion and discord. Claim to be the salvation of the downtrodden. Get one group of natives beating on the other other, provide overwhelming force at the critical point in the conflict, install yourself as God-Kings. It's worked many times in the past.
That would be completely unfluffy for space marines. They aren't philosophers and leaders and manipulators, they're rabid attack dogs that the Imperium points at something that needs killing spectacularly and watches from a safe distance.
The TT rules are simply game mechanics, they are what not should be taken literally given the absolute insanity that can happen in the TT that you are unlikely to even find in the fluff or the sheer idiocy of how some things are classed and restricted by the D6. There's no reason to believe why the fluff isn't literal and propaganda instead, because some parts of the fluff are unknowable in universe that would result either in the Dark Angels killing you, the Inquisition popping your head, or horrible horrible things happening to you when Daemons tear a hole into reality and rend your soul. The only actual reason behind you argument is whining over how you don't like the fluff, but what you propose is simply head-canon, IE, not actually true and something that isn't material licensed by GW with their stamp of approval or produced directly by them.
And Astartes aren't invulnerable. The main story of W40K is the Horus Heresy, which is effectively the War in Heaven 2.0 and continues to be waged in m41. It's a conflict between the gods and demigods, if a guardsmen actually manages to do something impressive it simply increases the glory for the IG of being able to do something besides die. Plus it exemplifies the nihilism of 40K.
Find me an example in nature where a creature the size of walking cattle can move fast enough to dodge hypersonic projectiles? Its physically impossible.
That there is enough of a reason why Space Marines are just stupidly plot armoured with little thought put behind them.
Quote bad writing all you want, but quoting that writing is the equivalent of 2 children arguing over whose imaginary creature is better.
"My monster can move the speed of light!"
"Oh yea? Mine can move the speed of light AND has bullets faster than the speed of light!"
See how terrible GW writing can be for Space Marines (the worst offenders)?
Im not gonna argue with GW fluff (remember, this is the company that wrote in the 5th edition codex that there was an imperial AAA unit that had a kill to death ratio of 999,999,999 to 1 or something equally stupid). So I wont bother arguing because you clearly are using the equivalent of propaganda to justify more propaganda.
Wait, you are saying GW fluff is not worth using?
What the actual hell, you say we are just going to argue fanfiction?
Find me an example in nature where a creature the size of walking cattle can move fast enough to dodge hypersonic projectiles? Its physically impossible.
That there is enough of a reason why Space Marines are just stupidly plot armoured with little thought put behind them.
Quote bad writing all you want, but quoting that writing is the equivalent of 2 children arguing over whose imaginary creature is better.
"My monster can move the speed of light!"
"Oh yea? Mine can move the speed of light AND has bullets faster than the speed of light!"
See how terrible GW writing can be for Space Marines (the worst offenders)?
Im not gonna argue with GW fluff (remember, this is the company that wrote in the 5th edition codex that there was an imperial AAA unit that had a kill to death ratio of 999,999,999 to 1 or something equally stupid). So I wont bother arguing because you clearly are using the equivalent of propaganda to justify more propaganda.
Wait, you are saying GW fluff is not worth using?
What the actual hell, you say we are just going to argue fanfiction?
I guess in a way yes. I think its good to use the ideas in the fluff, but in no way is it good to think the fluff is accurate as written. For the same reasons preregrine mentioned.
kestral wrote: Earth's history is full of tiny forces conquering entire nations given a technological advantage, some luck, a bit of ruthlessness and a weakened target. The most classic example is the Spanish and the Aztecs of course, but there are many more.
Could a squad of space marines personally conquer earth if humanity was united against them and willing to die to dive them off? No. In game terms they're barely equal to 100 mook humans. Fluff is kinder to them, but even then it seems beyond reasonable. They might kill a great many leaders, but all that would do would give the problem of having no one who could surrender to them.
Could a squad of space marines (with a ship and some support) conquer earth today? Sure. Divide and conquer. Sow confusion and discord. Claim to be the salvation of the downtrodden. Get one group of natives beating on the other other, provide overwhelming force at the critical point in the conflict, install yourself as God-Kings. It's worked many times in the past.
Kestral, you make good points...except that is exactly how Chaos Space Marines operate...not IoM Marines...Loyalist Marines are all about just attacking point targets and thinking they are going to get some type of shock and awe victory because, reasons. Alternately, using IoM Marines to do targeted raids and decapitation attacks against cult armies, alien gribblies, hedonist pain freaks, etc...but oddly enough, there are two problems to playing whack a mole...one, it doesn't work if the groups are small since there are always another group to take their place and; two, if the groups are big and have survived in 40k for a bit, then they know to have a well defined chain of command, assumption of command protocols, redundant commo systems and will have primary, alternate, contingency and emergency plans to cover all those things that happen in 40k like psykers, aliens, chaos corruption, demons, cyborgs, undead space robots, space marine blitzkriegs, titans, orbital strikes, etc.
Bottom Line: Space Marines, as written in fluff will only work if they fight incompetent, low tech monolithic enemies.
Find me an example in nature where a creature the size of walking cattle can move fast enough to dodge hypersonic projectiles? Its physically impossible.
That there is enough of a reason why Space Marines are just stupidly plot armoured with little thought put behind them.
Quote bad writing all you want, but quoting that writing is the equivalent of 2 children arguing over whose imaginary creature is better.
"My monster can move the speed of light!"
"Oh yea? Mine can move the speed of light AND has bullets faster than the speed of light!"
See how terrible GW writing can be for Space Marines (the worst offenders)?
Im not gonna argue with GW fluff (remember, this is the company that wrote in the 5th edition codex that there was an imperial AAA unit that had a kill to death ratio of 999,999,999 to 1 or something equally stupid). So I wont bother arguing because you clearly are using the equivalent of propaganda to justify more propaganda.
No, I use official material produced by a company that is also approved by said company while you try to argue your baseless fanon that simply is not what W40K is, and stopped being ages ago. W40K is no different than Marvel, Star Wars, DC, or any other universe with super-humanly powered individuals that are utterly beyond the capabilities of humans in the modern day. Only W40K is slightly more sensible than most other large fiction franchises, especially in areas such as space combat. The difference between W40K and Marvel, DC, and others like it is that a base human can actually be worth something, sometimes. Rather than the screaming hapless jaded civilians of 616 Earth.
Also, power has absolutely nothing to do with quality fiction. Or are you going to start whining about how overpowered the Culture is?
Ashiraya wrote: If we can't use GW fluff, then you have nothing saying Imperial Guard even exist.
Seems much better, I agree.
Did you read what Peregrine said?
If you believe GW fluff 100% then go read C.S Gotto. Come back and tell me you still agree with GW 100%
It doesn't matter if you don't like it. You don't own the rights to 40K. You're welcome to cook up your own fanfiction, but don't pretend it actually is the original source material. Unless you can get it licensed by GW. I may hate Goto and Ward, but that doesn't mean I run around screaming NEVER HAPPENED while simultaneously covering my eyes and ears lest I heard about it. They're terrible writers, but it doesn't make them any less valid. Besides, there's the question if you actually disagree so much with W40K, why even bloody bother. Just go off to some other miniature line or fiction franchise if you so seemingly ignore almost everything GW produces.
Ashiraya wrote: If we can't use GW fluff, then you have nothing saying Imperial Guard even exist.
Seems much better, I agree.
Did you read what Peregrine said?
If you believe GW fluff 100% then go read C.S Gotto. Come back and tell me you still agree with GW 100%
Unlike Wyzilla's wall of text, however, Goto is an outlier.
Wyzilla read this too:
No he is GW approved. According to you we should embrace his work and treat it like it makes sense and is worth reading for reasons besides its comedic value. Or is it just really convenient that he is an outlier because he is the best example to show how awful GW is and can be with fluff at times?
Is there anything in the 40K universe that doesnt conflict? Watch the Space Marine movie. See how they die to bolter fire? That completely contradicts how good power armour is. So what are we supposed to think is real cannon? Easy answer. The most sensible bits.
And the most sensible bits kinda destroy how decent Space Marines are... Like the movie they released showed how not so tough and smart Space marines are. Or how CS Gotto killed Eldar Fluff for eldar Players. And so on. Using fluff to back up your arguments is fine. But its all contradictory anyway. So this becomes an argument of opinion.
And in my opinion. Space marines are not that great for the many reasons I have listed.
Swastakowey wrote: Watch the Space Marine movie. See how they die to bolter fire? That completely contradicts how good power armour is.
...And then we have the Space Marine game. In that game you can pump two mags of Bolter shells into a Chaos Marine at point blank range, and he can take it. Whereas the traitor guardsmen die to one or two shots, depending on where you hit.'
I wonder how GW deals with their own cognitive dissonance. The difference between the lowest low-end Marines (Who Bobthehero loves bringing up) and the highest-high end (Which even I admit is absurd, like SM moving at FTL speeds or wiping out a continent with a plasma pistol shot) is absurd and I have no idea how they can think both are true at the same time. The highest-high end is probably propaganda, and the lowest-low end rumours, and somewhere in between is the truth...
Bobthehero wrote: Well then, how come Plagues Marines die to fairly warm lasguns a bunch of grenaders and a bit of electricity?
Or that they get stabbed to death with a power sword wielded by a human.
Or chainsword wielded by another human. *shrugs*
Because Schrodinger canon. I don't like it, but that doesn't give me a right to whine about its existence and pretend it never happened with it being descended and endorsed by GW. Plus Cadian Blood was a damn good book.
The only thing I absolutely hate is when somebody writes mentally slowed and incompetent military force anything. Like the Blood Ravens or Soul Drinkers. Thank god for the Raptors.
Vash108 wrote: Speaking of GW Canon, did anyone play Fire Warrior?
unbelievably fond memories of that one. Interestingly I've got some wort of pavlovs dogs thing that goes on whenever I eat a Swedish fish that brings me back to that game.
If we ever had to determine what an "outlier" is, this would be a great place to start.
Vash108 wrote: Speaking of GW Canon, did anyone play Fire Warrior?
unbelievably fond memories of that one. Interestingly I've got some wort of pavlovs dogs thing that goes on whenever I eat a Swedish fish that brings me back to that game.
If we ever had to determine what an "outlier" is, this would be a great place to start.
Not really an outlier. He was empowered by Khorne.
Swastakowey wrote: Watch the Space Marine movie. See how they die to bolter fire? That completely contradicts how good power armour is.
...And then we have the Space Marine game. In that game you can pump two mags of Bolter shells into a Chaos Marine at point blank range, and he can take it. Whereas the traitor guardsmen die to one or two shots, depending on where you hit.
havent played the game. But I can only imagine how much it contradicts everything else GW has written or made in some way or another. But you kind of just proved my point by saying that. Also in the fluff where does it say a Guardsmen can take 2 bolter hits...
Its all contradictory, and a lot of it can be ridiculous. As an answer to your other thread, it seems Space Marines are the worst offenders of bad fluff. And to top it off some space marine fans take the best bits of their factions fluff and treat it like 100% cannon which can in no way be any less than gods. thats why its stigmatized.
For example you told me to 100% treat the fluff as cannon. But I point out CS gotto or the movie and you say to treat it like an outlier. Instead of going "well its how I like to think of them" you say "we should all like to treat it that way because its how it is in the books". But the way you treat it is impossible because the books contradict all the time. this talk would have ended when we both agreed that its opinion, but instead you insisted on your belief that GW fluff is all right and 100% supports your view etc etc. When in reality the fluff supports the both of us.
I will admit, on the basis of fluff alone, my opinion is just as correct as yours. But that just shows how bad GW can be with the fluff. Which is why I dismissed fluff earlier as decent examples and instead resorted to real world examples. Its all opinion, and if you want to believe that 10 Marines can take over a world, then fine. But remember, you are just as wrong as you are right (in pure fluff arguments that is, in anything real world example wise I personally think I have the advantage for my argument )
Swastakowey wrote: Watch the Space Marine movie. See how they die to bolter fire? That completely contradicts how good power armour is.
...And then we have the Space Marine game. In that game you can pump two mags of Bolter shells into a Chaos Marine at point blank range, and he can take it. Whereas the traitor guardsmen die to one or two shots, depending on where you hit.'
I wonder how GW deals with their own cognitive dissonance. The difference between the lowest low-end Marines (Who Bobthehero loves bringing up) and the highest-high end (Which even I admit is absurd, like SM moving at FTL speeds or wiping out a continent with a plasma pistol shot) is absurd and I have no idea how they can think both are true at the same time. The highest-high end is probably propaganda, and the lowest-low end rumours, and somewhere in between is the truth...
Vash108 wrote: Speaking of GW Canon, did anyone play Fire Warrior?
unbelievably fond memories of that one. Interestingly I've got some wort of pavlovs dogs thing that goes on whenever I eat a Swedish fish that brings me back to that game.
If we ever had to determine what an "outlier" is, this would be a great place to start.
Not really an outlier. He was empowered by Khorne.
This thread really makes me want to compare all this canon stuff to people's beliefs about the bible, but that's just me. In the end, GW is just trying to make money so they try to make the game fun so it sells and throw the fluff out the window if needed. oh well.
Vash108 wrote: Speaking of GW Canon, did anyone play Fire Warrior?
unbelievably fond memories of that one. Interestingly I've got some wort of pavlovs dogs thing that goes on whenever I eat a Swedish fish that brings me back to that game.
If we ever had to determine what an "outlier" is, this would be a great place to start.
Not really an outlier. He was empowered by Khorne.
This is a joke right?
Not really a joke, as IIRC in the novelization he screams BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD (or maybe it was SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE, I can't remember which), which sane and non empowered people tend not to do.
10 SM's can quell a city rebellion, 1,000 can conquer a planet and a legion can stomp a star system to dust.
Now lets put numbers on these.
10 marines - 300,000 average city population
Projected time to objective completion: 1 to 5 years.
1,000 marines (SM chapter) - 8,000,000,000 average futuristic planet population
Projected time to objective completion: 10 to 25 years
100,000 marines, average legion size - many billions of star system inhabitants
Projected time to objective completion: 100 to 1,000 years
Keep in mind that the average SM holds the same amount of knowledge Albert Einstein had....which is amazing. Sergeants, captains, chapter masters and all other high ranking SM staff are even smarter. A primarch = Albert Einstien + Sir Isaac Newton multiplied by 30. That's one smart son of gun. I'm sure each primarch found a diplomatic and militaristic way of gaining planetary rule and respect. Keep in mind most primarchs respected humanity and as such did not resort to the arrows but instead the olive branch. Konrad Curze and Angron are 2 prime examples of primarchs that had failed to rule the planet they inhabited. Angron was enslaved by powerful and sadistic humans while Konrad Curze spent all his time hunting down and killing criminals. As admirable as Curze was it was not enough to befriend skeptics.
As for SM's.
A city rebels and imagine you are the leader of this rebellion. You are fairly smart, your tactful, you know military logic and you are willing to die for your beliefs, meaning you are a tad arrogant and you won't back down to the Imperium and with-hold your rebellion.
Suddenly you have 10 super human power armour clad titans with their weakest weapons being as powerful as your best weapons and intelligence matching that of one of the most smartest humans to ever live on planet Earth and they have the planetary PDF at their disposal. Their first objective is gonna be having you killed, and they will find a decisive way of doing it...believe that. With the leader of the rebellion killed, those 10 SM's are gonna have their way with the rest of those foolish enough to stand by your side and half the rebellion will be killled before the rest realize their error and surrender.
To take over a planet.
A SM chapter will first nuke every continent on the face of the planet for an extended 7 days. Having dazed and confused the planetary forces, the fleet will drop 2 companies of SM's and a couple IG regiments to sieze all planetary Spaceports while along the way eliminating any AA guns along the way. Enemy forces will have no mobility at all to fight a decisive battle. SM's and IG reinforcements will then drop full force to the planet. Average SM chapter tactics will be to eliminate enemy command structure. This will be a lengthy conflict but it will be done and then an even longer time cleansing the planet but that can be counted upon on the IG.
Cleansing a star system will be a repeated and drawn out version of what I just explained.
Of course, this is theory and considered canon, not to mention this is average SM tactics and not always done the way I explained. However, this is the most popular and efficient way of going about a war. I made sure to include IG and PDF forces because SM's will always need aid in the wars they wage. IG are litterally the backbone of the Imperium and don't dispute that. millions of these sould die every single day to ensure the survival and operation of the Imperium. SM's are there to add brute strength and superior thinking and resolve.
The problem is the VAST difference I strength between fluff and rules that gets people confused..
Fluff- strength of ten men, without power armour.. Feel no pain.. Seen it all twice so can never be outflanked.. And are so souped up they never ever miss..
Rules- barely better than human.. Die to a knife of a drunk all the time.. Half the time can't even shoot straight...
Humans
Fluff- think those guys in the rebel ship in the first scene of Starwars..
Rules... Give them a krak grenade and a bit of luck and gak dies in a stiff wind..
No, space marines are a flawed and outdated concept of "bigger is better". There is nothing practical or useful about a Space marine to even be useful for anything but costing a crap ton of money. Its just childish super hero nonsense to think Space marines are as awesome as you described. In reality they wouldnt last at all in a gun fight. Bullets wont harmlessly bounce off them. The bullets would start hitting vital joints, visors and sensors, even the bolt gun would be subject to a hail of gunfire. Let alone support weapons like mortars and grenade launchers shattering ribs and shocking their targets.
There is a reason the only possible way A space marine unit can take over a planet is through the navy. Why? Because there is no logical way a space marine can win anything. Why? Because they are so stupidly written that its simply a "because space marines are cool and strong" excuse for anything they do.
I wont bother saying anymore, because I know people like SPace Marines and while I think the concept can be cool, there is no way a Space marine could do anything more than a normal soldier in combat. If anything their size and bulk would hinder them in combat. Let alone the fact that they cant help but scream running towards the enemy as their main tactic.
Space Marines are simply incapable of being efficient at anything when you think about it. Let alone how Much food a Space Marine would need to consume to stay active. They would have to carry so much food it would be a hindrance. Also think about how many Marines would die just trying to land from their Drop Pods? Nothing about them is practical or worth keeping them for.
Of course, maybe you can stretch reality better than I can.
Space marines are in 40k for the same reason the robots and monsters are in the Pacific Rim movie. mindless action that doesnt need reasoning or thought. because as soon as you think about it, it all falls apart
"There is no way a Space Marine could do anything more than a normal soldier in combat."
I think, with that single sentence, you have established yourself as being massively hyperbolic or detached from reality.
If you are a 'normal soldier', but your weapon is better, you can now do more.
If you are a 'normal soldier', but your armor is better, you can now do more.
If you are a normal soldier, but your training is better, you can now do more.
If you are a normal soldier, but you heal injuries faster, you can now do more.
If you are a normal soldier, but you don't get older and weaker, you can now do more.
I'm not saying that Space Marines would "really" be as effective as they are in GW fiction, but it simply makes NO SENSE to claim that multiple improvements to the equipment and capacities of normal soldiers don't mean anything at all. If you just gave Guardsmen carapace armor, it would make them better than guys in flak armor. If you just gave them bolters, it would make them better than guys with lasguns.
No, space marines are a flawed and outdated concept of "bigger is better". There is nothing practical or useful about a Space marine to even be useful for anything but costing a crap ton of money. Its just childish super hero nonsense to think Space marines are as awesome as you described. In reality they wouldnt last at all in a gun fight. Bullets wont harmlessly bounce off them. The bullets would start hitting vital joints, visors and sensors, even the bolt gun would be subject to a hail of gunfire. Let alone support weapons like mortars and grenade launchers shattering ribs and shocking their targets.
There is a reason the only possible way A space marine unit can take over a planet is through the navy. Why? Because there is no logical way a space marine can win anything. Why? Because they are so stupidly written that its simply a "because space marines are cool and strong" excuse for anything they do.
I wont bother saying anymore, because I know people like SPace Marines and while I think the concept can be cool, there is no way a Space marine could do anything more than a normal soldier in combat. If anything their size and bulk would hinder them in combat. Let alone the fact that they cant help but scream running towards the enemy as their main tactic.
Space Marines are simply incapable of being efficient at anything when you think about it. Let alone how Much food a Space Marine would need to consume to stay active. They would have to carry so much food it would be a hindrance. Also think about how many Marines would die just trying to land from their Drop Pods? Nothing about them is practical or worth keeping them for.
Of course, maybe you can stretch reality better than I can.
Space marines are in 40k for the same reason the robots and monsters are in the Pacific Rim movie. mindless action that doesnt need reasoning or thought. because as soon as you think about it, it all falls apart
"There is no way a Space Marine could do anything more than a normal soldier in combat."
I think, with that single sentence, you have established yourself as being massively hyperbolic or detached from reality.
If you are a 'normal soldier', but your weapon is better, you can now do more.
If you are a 'normal soldier', but your armor is better, you can now do more.
If you are a normal soldier, but your training is better, you can now do more.
If you are a normal soldier, but you heal injuries faster, you can now do more.
If you are a normal soldier, but you don't get older and weaker, you can now do more.
I'm not saying that Space Marines would "really" be as effective as they are in GW fiction, but it simply makes NO SENSE to claim that multiple improvements to the equipment and capacities of normal soldiers don't mean anything at all. If you just gave Guardsmen carapace armor, it would make them better than guys in flak armor. If you just gave them bolters, it would make them better than guys with lasguns.
I think the problem is that there are litterally no definitive ways to picture 40k in terms of power, ratio or likelihood for any one race. It's all "whatever floats your boat" which is fine but it reduces the term "serious 40k discussion" to "wild 40k fantasies" in the very forum we are speaking on. How can there be serious discussion when everything is canon? There is no serious discussion, just bias and illogical opinions.
It is easy kill the head of the snake or like Night lords kill a whole city i the most graphic way and watch the rest surrender. And because GW said so
Vast and profound confusion of the terms "bad writing" with "implausible" ITT.
Space Marines being big enough badasses to fight armies that outnumber them a thousand to one isn't "bad writing", it's implausible.
It isn't bad writing anymore than Batman being able to run into a room and karate-chop twenty machine gun wielding mooks into submission, or Doctor Octopus in Spiderman 2 being completely unscathed after falling hundreds of feet despite being just a normal human with super tentacles sown into his spine could be considered "bad writing".
Conquering a planet and forcing it to submit to your will is another. Taking over a planet and conquering it are two different things.
Conquering is complete and total subjugation along with the destruction of culture and any governing body, and then replacing it with your own. Taking over a planet is simply forcing them to your will.
Conquering = Spanish destroying, enslaving killing, and converting native populations.
Taking over = treaty of Versailles
can a space marine squad or company conquer a planet yes, but it would have to be vastly technologically superior and also have the ability to drum up allies. (how cortez conquered the aztecs) otherwise they could only take the planet over via a show of arms or strategic application of force.
When it comes to planets even near our level of technology and without allies, the space marines would be worn thin. This is where the imperial guard comes in and blows the place to kingdome come and then remakes it in the emperors name.
Space marines can be deployed to conquer planets, but they would need to be smart and use all of their assets to their advantage. in general though the guard is going to be quicker and generally more effective at pacifying an entire planet.
tldr: space marines are the sword of the imperium and must be used elegantly to penetrate the enemies armor where it is weakest. The imperial Guard are the hammer and simply crush the imperium's foes under its weight.
Ashiraya wrote: I do not argue game mechanics. Game mechanics are game mechanics, fluff is fluff. It is in GWs financial interest to not make SM too strong on the tabletop, because then everyone would just buy a few of them and get a cheap army of decent points.
Which is true, to a point. Obviously there's a bigger difference between carapace and power armor than a 3+ vs. 4+ armor save. But the tabletop game is meant to be a reasonably accurate representation of how things work. So, while we know power armor is probably better than a 3+ it's probably not many orders of magnitude better like it would have to be for a single squad of marines to conquer a whole planet.
Space Marines bite hard, yes, but the setting bites back! Your SM squad may carve their way through a company without as much as taking damage, but there's billions of guardsmen for each Marine. Eldar and Necrons can arguably match Marines in sheer battle prowess, as can Tyranids. Orks bring numbers and toughness, and so on. I consider the idea of Marines being as weak as you imply implausible; the only way a million Marines can be seen as a faction in their own right next to the others is if they bring such truly ludicrous force concentration that most other forces just crumble. The fact that SM are so strong but still are too few to stop the descent of the Imperium only adds to the grimdark. YMMV.
But if everyone else is just as strong then a squad of marines can't conquer a whole planet. The only way the most ridiculous claims about marine power work at all is if marines are orders of magnitude better than everyone else in the setting, and that's just boring as hell.
Ashiraya wrote: I wonder how GW deals with their own cognitive dissonance.
Easily: in-universe propaganda and religious myths. A story about a squad of marines conquering a planet should be interpreted the same way as a story about Jesus coming back and pwning all the sinners: it's obviously not true, it just has religious value for the people who believe in it. Meanwhile the reality is somewhere around what we see in the tabletop game, where marines are pretty good infantry but still die against the big guns. There's only cognitive dissonance if you insist on taking every word of 40k's fluff as literal truth, something GW tells you not to do.
Lord Tarkin wrote: Keep in mind that the average SM holds the same amount of knowledge Albert Einstein had....which is amazing. Sergeants, captains, chapter masters and all other high ranking SM staff are even smarter.
Lol, no. The fluff portrays marines as rabid attack dogs who value faith in their genocidal crusade over rational thought. They're well-equiped and competent in battle, but they aren't geniuses.
(And I would point out that this is not how intelligence works, but I assume that everyone but you already knows that.)
Suddenly you have 10 super human power armour clad titans with their weakest weapons being as powerful as your best weapons and intelligence matching that of one of the most smartest humans to ever live on planet Earth and they have the planetary PDF at their disposal. Their first objective is gonna be having you killed, and they will find a decisive way of doing it...believe that. With the leader of the rebellion killed, those 10 SM's are gonna have their way with the rest of those foolish enough to stand by your side and half the rebellion will be killled before the rest realize their error and surrender.
Correction: the 10 space marines drop pod in, take 99% casualties against my AA defenses (seriously, we solved the whole "how to shoot down incoming ballistic missiles" thing in the 1950s). And if somehow enough survive to kill me the deadman's switch I'm carrying sets off my stockpile of nukes and vaporizes all of them. Congratulations Imperium, you've just paid a whole squad of priceless marines (worth more than an entire planet) to do the job of an orbital bombardment on my command bunker.
A SM chapter will first nuke every continent on the face of the planet for an extended 7 days. Having dazed and confused the planetary forces, the fleet will drop 2 companies of SM's and a couple IG regiments to sieze all planetary Spaceports while along the way eliminating any AA guns along the way. Enemy forces will have no mobility at all to fight a decisive battle. SM's and IG reinforcements will then drop full force to the planet. Average SM chapter tactics will be to eliminate enemy command structure. This will be a lengthy conflict but it will be done and then an even longer time cleansing the planet but that can be counted upon on the IG.
So, why exactly are the space marines involved if you're just going to nuke the whole planet until nothing is left alive?
Also, "eliminate enemy command structures" isn't exactly a trivial task since those command structures aren't marked on the maps or carrying giant "shoot me now" signs. More likely you'll just have a bunch of space marines running around killing random stuff while the command structure is hidden far away from the fighting. And if, by some miracle, you manage to identify an important command unit why would you send a squad of screaming idiots with chainswords instead just a few ICBMs? After all, it's not like you're worried about collateral damage when you've just been nuking the whole planet for the past week.
Ashiraya wrote: I do not argue game mechanics. Game mechanics are game mechanics, fluff is fluff. It is in GWs financial interest to not make SM too strong on the tabletop, because then everyone would just buy a few of them and get a cheap army of decent points.
Which is true, to a point. Obviously there's a bigger difference between carapace and power armor than a 3+ vs. 4+ armor save. But the tabletop game is meant to be a reasonably accurate representation of how things work. So, while we know power armor is probably better than a 3+ it's probably not many orders of magnitude better like it would have to be for a single squad of marines to conquer a whole planet.
Space Marines bite hard, yes, but the setting bites back! Your SM squad may carve their way through a company without as much as taking damage, but there's billions of guardsmen for each Marine. Eldar and Necrons can arguably match Marines in sheer battle prowess, as can Tyranids. Orks bring numbers and toughness, and so on. I consider the idea of Marines being as weak as you imply implausible; the only way a million Marines can be seen as a faction in their own right next to the others is if they bring such truly ludicrous force concentration that most other forces just crumble. The fact that SM are so strong but still are too few to stop the descent of the Imperium only adds to the grimdark. YMMV.
But if everyone else is just as strong then a squad of marines can't conquer a whole planet. The only way the most ridiculous claims about marine power work at all is if marines are orders of magnitude better than everyone else in the setting, and that's just boring as hell.
Ashiraya wrote: I wonder how GW deals with their own cognitive dissonance.
Easily: in-universe propaganda and religious myths. A story about a squad of marines conquering a planet should be interpreted the same way as a story about Jesus coming back and pwning all the sinners: it's obviously not true, it just has religious value for the people who believe in it. Meanwhile the reality is somewhere around what we see in the tabletop game, where marines are pretty good infantry but still die against the big guns. There's only cognitive dissonance if you insist on taking every word of 40k's fluff as literal truth, something GW tells you not to do.
Lord Tarkin wrote: Keep in mind that the average SM holds the same amount of knowledge Albert Einstein had....which is amazing. Sergeants, captains, chapter masters and all other high ranking SM staff are even smarter.
Lol, no. The fluff portrays marines as rabid attack dogs who value faith in their genocidal crusade over rational thought. They're well-equiped and competent in battle, but they aren't geniuses.
(And I would point out that this is not how intelligence works, but I assume that everyone but you already knows that.)
Suddenly you have 10 super human power armour clad titans with their weakest weapons being as powerful as your best weapons and intelligence matching that of one of the most smartest humans to ever live on planet Earth and they have the planetary PDF at their disposal. Their first objective is gonna be having you killed, and they will find a decisive way of doing it...believe that. With the leader of the rebellion killed, those 10 SM's are gonna have their way with the rest of those foolish enough to stand by your side and half the rebellion will be killled before the rest realize their error and surrender.
Correction: the 10 space marines drop pod in, take 99% casualties against my AA defenses (seriously, we solved the whole "how to shoot down incoming ballistic missiles" thing in the 1950s). And if somehow enough survive to kill me the deadman's switch I'm carrying sets off my stockpile of nukes and vaporizes all of them. Congratulations Imperium, you've just paid a whole squad of priceless marines (worth more than an entire planet) to do the job of an orbital bombardment on my command bunker.
A SM chapter will first nuke every continent on the face of the planet for an extended 7 days. Having dazed and confused the planetary forces, the fleet will drop 2 companies of SM's and a couple IG regiments to sieze all planetary Spaceports while along the way eliminating any AA guns along the way. Enemy forces will have no mobility at all to fight a decisive battle. SM's and IG reinforcements will then drop full force to the planet. Average SM chapter tactics will be to eliminate enemy command structure. This will be a lengthy conflict but it will be done and then an even longer time cleansing the planet but that can be counted upon on the IG.
So, why exactly are the space marines involved if you're just going to nuke the whole planet until nothing is left alive?
Also, "eliminate enemy command structures" isn't exactly a trivial task since those command structures aren't marked on the maps or carrying giant "shoot me now" signs. More likely you'll just have a bunch of space marines running around killing random stuff while the command structure is hidden far away from the fighting. And if, by some miracle, you manage to identify an important command unit why would you send a squad of screaming idiots with chainswords instead just a few ICBMs? After all, it's not like you're worried about collateral damage when you've just been nuking the wholeness planet for the past week.
First off, no need to throw slighted insults. I see you're a SM hater, very easy to notice.
And yes, SM's are quite smart. I know you seem to think all they do is shout incoherent praises and charge into righteous combat but it doesn't work that way. They are the best military strategists the galaxy has seen and that is a big reason they are as successful as they are. Given their weaponry and equipment coupled with their incredible physical prowess makes them almost unmatchable enemies in terms of indivdual fights.
And you didn't actually say a single rebellious city could shoot a drop pod out of the sky? Lol, not happening.
And yes, they will orbital bomb every continent, soften them up a little. Maybe I shouldn't have said nukes but I was trying to make it seem dramatic.
I'd say you're probably right. The Marines go in, shoot/stab/punch/blow up anything important, then the enemy is left paralysed and unable to effectively resist. The Marines or IG then sweep the planet of remaining major resistance, and the IG/local forces take over the role of policing/pacifying.
Do marines even conquer planets? I thought that job came to the guard, and it was the legions that used to conquer planets. I thought that in 40k's time marines are there to kill the enemies of the imperium.
Doombunny wrote: I'd say you're probably right. The Marines go in, shoot/stab/punch/blow up anything important, then the enemy is left paralysed and unable to effectively resist. The Marines or IG then sweep the planet of remaining major resistance, and the IG/local forces take over the role of policing/pacifying.
IG and PDF's are extreme reasons SM's are able to do what they do. When GW talks about how a 10 man squad can pacify a rebellion of 300,000 inhabitants, everybody starts complaining "how can 10 marines do that, impossible!" No it is possible because they aren't alone. That SM squad will spend at least a few weeks analyzing all possible diplomatic solutions before going on another week readying PDF and police forces to mobilize on startegic positions around the city.
It's not like a squad of marines just bursts into a city guns blazing and "pew pew pew," everything dies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Toastaster wrote: Do marines even conquer planets? I thought that job came to the guard, and it was the legions that used to conquer planets. I thought that in 40k's time marines are there to kill the enemies of the imperium.
Conquer is a terrible word to use. Guard are the backbone for such tasks and SM's are there to strike at the most important and vulnerable positions they deem winnable by their own standards.
When a chapter of SM's invade a planet, the PDF and IG are responsible for the preservation of mission lengths. The available SM's are there to conduct military operation and complete an X amount of personal goals, making life 10 times easier for the IG to slam the enemy with tanks and sheer man power.
1,000 SM's can statistically put away 98,000 humans. I actually did the math, assuming a regular marine can kill 100, a sergeant can kill 150, a captain can kill 200 and a scout can kill 20 (and 20 at best). Scouts get so few because #1, they really only do reconnaissance and #2, they have not nearly enough experience as their much older brothers.
Now IG can probably kill much more. Let's say a force of 2 million IG assist in an invasion along a SM chapter. At least 1 million, AT LEAST a million enemy humans will bite the dust but that's assuming those IG sucked baddd. IG are much more trained then any single human military unit coupled with the fact they have seen horrors incomprehensible to most planetary citizens. While IG are doing most of the fighting SM's go for the strategic enemy positions and crush them to a bloody pulp. That's how wars are won. IG and SM's work hard together and only by those means will SM's be able to complete their goals.
Of course during the Great Crusade humans were rarely ever needed. A SM legion would just do the job itself.
GW writers have no sense of scale in any regard. A couple of million guard would still be useless against us if modern earth was invaded. North Korea (far from a world power) has 5 million soldiers. Russa, China, America alone could fight off the Imperial guard or Space Marines.
Also if you look at mass invasions from sea, like D-day, show that even a superior force will take huge casualties while trying to land. Coming down from space would exasperate this even further. Let's say one drop ship with 10,000 Guard is dropping into the atmosphere. We just hammer it with missiles and that's a whole army dead. If they set up a mass drop site in say a desert or tundra type area, we would just nuke it and wipe out their whole army.
As for Space Marines, in the real world, they wouldn't stand a chance. We could just flood the skies with Choppers and rain death down on them, thousands of tanks, missiles, snipers...even an armoured super hero would go down under sheer weight of fire.
There are 8 Billion people on this planet, even a million space marines would struggle to do what it is claimed in the fluff.
KorPhaeron77 wrote: GW writers have no sense of scale in any regard. A couple of million guard would still be useless against us if modern earth was invaded. North Korea (far from a world power) has 5 million soldiers. Russa, China, America alone could fight off the Imperial guard or Space Marines.
Also if you look at mass invasions from sea, like D-day, show that even a superior force will take huge casualties while trying to land. Coming down from space would exasperate this even further. Let's say one drop ship with 10,000 Guard is dropping into the atmosphere. We just hammer it with missiles and that's a whole army dead. If they set up a mass drop site in say a desert or tundra type area, we would just nuke it and wipe out their whole army.
As for Space Marines, in the real world, they wouldn't stand a chance. We could just flood the skies with Choppers and rain death down on them, thousands of tanks, missiles, snipers...even an armoured super hero would go down under sheer weight of fire.
There are 8 Billion people on this planet, even a million space marines would struggle to do what it is claimed in the fluff.
Solid debate right there actually. You're right, 2 million IG stands zero chance. I'd say...6 billion IG, added with maybe 2 chapters of SM's. Yeah, that's a fight.
But then again, I always thought, SM legions were much more able to conquer planets and for obvious reasons. A legion is ten times the size of a SM chapter.
Idk. It's such an ambiguous scenario. We can compare the 41st millennium to nowadays but we really have no clue what life is like in the future and we cant possibly predict anything. Its all just theory.
In reality though, a chapter could certainly defeat a planet. They could never do anything other than tear it apart but destroying the ability of the planetary government and governmental officers is doable. They couldn't ever oversee a rebuilding or long term transition.
I'll have to respectfully disagree with you about a modern army's ability to combat Space Marines. I am beyond confident that the. United States military would be completely capable of the destruction of an entire Space Marines chapter. Though it's completely impossible to debate this with factual evidence.
And that there is the problem with the fluff these days. The humans are great/and nothing like the people of these days condition, its got a name, but cant remember how it goes . Its also ruining the game.
It seems less grim dark these days.
Im sure the US military could destroy a chapter in a stand up, toe to toe fight, if you can bring all your weapons to bear.
SM dont, and never should fight like that. SM are the spear tip, go for the throat, or the S.E.A.L.S of this day and age. Strike where they want, if they want. But they should be able to tear through your invincible armoured bunker. This isn't Independence day were you can miraculously pull something out of your arse and give the enemy a cold.
If you think your missiles would hit the target, sad trombone mp3.
No satellites, means you not hitting anything you can't see. You have no communications with anyone you can't just yell at. You can't organize your army for a planet wide defence. Which means your just a faction, not much different from North Korea
Your planes don't know where they are. You would be like the Taliban fighting Merica. Can you defend the leadership against a drop pod or a jet chinook , where you can't bring your massive fire power to bear? how many tanks can you put in these bunkers. Ooops president and his cabinet (think that's what they called)
Then your just separate detachments, ripe for the picking.
I'll have to respectfully disagree with you about a modern army's ability to combat Space Marines. I am beyond confident that the. United States military would be completely capable of the destruction of an entire Space Marines chapter. Though it's completely impossible to debate this with factual evidence.
And that there is the problem with the fluff these days. The humans are great/and nothing like the people of these days condition, its got a name, but cant remember how it goes . Its also ruining the game.
It seems less grim dark these days.
Im sure the US military could destroy a chapter in a stand up, toe to toe fight, if you can bring all your weapons to bear.
SM dont, and never should fight like that. SM are the spear tip, go for the throat, or the S.E.A.L.S of this day and age. Strike where they want, if they want. But they should be able to tear through your invincible armoured bunker. This isn't Independence day were you can miraculously pull something out of your arse and give the enemy a cold.
If you think your missiles would hit the target, sad trombone mp3.
No satellites, means you not hitting anything you can't see. You have no communications with anyone you can't just yell at. You can't organize your army for a planet wide defence. Which means your just a faction, not much different from North Korea
Your planes don't know where they are. You would be like the Taliban fighting Merica. Can you defend the leadership against a drop pod or a jet chinook , where you can't bring your massive fire power to bear? how many tanks can you put in these bunkers. Ooops president and his cabinet (think that's what they called)
Then your just separate detachments, ripe for the picking.
Why do I suddenly have to solely fight on their terms? Why are we suddenly assuming the Space Marines know where our highest leaders are? If you honestly believe the Space Marines would be able to knock out all forms of global communication then I'm not sure why I'm having this conversation. Satellites? Yes, undoubtably. But that's not our only means. Ever heard of telegraph?
I'll have to respectfully disagree with you about a modern army's ability to combat Space Marines. I am beyond confident that the. United States military would be completely capable of the destruction of an entire Space Marines chapter. Though it's completely impossible to debate this with factual evidence.
And that there is the problem with the fluff these days. The humans are great/and nothing like the people of these days condition, its got a name, but cant remember how it goes . Its also ruining the game.
It seems less grim dark these days.
Im sure the US military could destroy a chapter in a stand up, toe to toe fight, if you can bring all your weapons to bear.
SM dont, and never should fight like that. SM are the spear tip, go for the throat, or the S.E.A.L.S of this day and age. Strike where they want, if they want. But they should be able to tear through your invincible armoured bunker. This isn't Independence day were you can miraculously pull something out of your arse and give the enemy a cold.
If you think your missiles would hit the target, sad trombone mp3.
No satellites, means you not hitting anything you can't see. You have no communications with anyone you can't just yell at. You can't organize your army for a planet wide defence. Which means your just a faction, not much different from North Korea
Your planes don't know where they are. You would be like the Taliban fighting Merica. Can you defend the leadership against a drop pod or a jet chinook , where you can't bring your massive fire power to bear? how many tanks can you put in these bunkers. Ooops president and his cabinet (think that's what they called)
Then your just separate detachments, ripe for the picking.
Why do I suddenly have to solely fight on their terms? Why are we suddenly assuming the Space Marines know where our highest leaders are? If you honestly believe the Space Marines would be able to knock out all forms of global communication then I'm not sure why I'm having this conversation. Satellites? Yes, undoubtably. But that's not our only means. Ever heard of telegraph? /quote]
You ever heard of Librarians or Techmarines? Our communications will be watched over by them while Librarians can both read our minds. Combat-wise, Space Marines are near invisible to IR, Corvus IS invisible, their basic guns will take down everything up to heavy armor, their special/heavy weapons will one-shot all of our armor and aircraft, and their infantry meanwhile runs around 45 miles per hour, dodges supersonic projectiles, and can tank a short from an MBT. Plus they have orbital superiority and can shoot power plants whenever wished or slag military bases with a single shot. Civilians would be screaming for surrender or just screaming in general, morale would be down, and leaders would be picked off and executed, probably publicly.
Perhaps I did take it too personally but it's a little difficult not to.
But as someone who has seen out technology at work in person, as in standing next to some of our coolest developments, I don't believe a group of hypothetical soldiers can defeat us.
Biased? Sure. Correct? It's an opinion so it's impossible to be.
All I can say is that I've seen and done too many things to believe any argument about a defeat. My experience is obviously different than yours though
I find it extremely arrogant to believe that a 5.56 NATO round will do more than glance off power armour, heh.
Something you need to realise about 40k is that armour technology is insane. Ork Hide grants a 6+ save and has been stated in white dwarf (although it was a while ago) to be as tough as 20th century ballistic armour.
That means that a standard modern handgun firing lead-cored copper-jacketed bullets is going to bounce off what the 40k universe considers the lightest possible armour worth mentioning.
Ashiraya wrote: You may be taking that joke a bit too personal.
In the last post I put out there were quite few people dissing America. I don't wanna nitpick but that does bother me just a little bit. A little common respect is appreciated on a warhammer 40k social network, disagreeing does not give ground to insult but I guess since I'm a dirty American my opinion doesn't rightly matter.
I don't blame you of course, I'm just saying, there are some people too immature to hold a debate without mocking the flag adjacent to my username.
Furyou Miko wrote: I find it extremely arrogant to believe that a 5.56 NATO round will do more than glance off power armour, heh.
Something you need to realise about 40k is that armour technology is insane. Ork Hide grants a 6+ save and has been stated in white dwarf (although it was a while ago) to be as tough as 20th century ballistic armour.
That means that a standard modern handgun firing lead-cored copper-jacketed bullets is going to bounce off what the 40k universe considers the lightest possible armour worth mentioning.
An auto gun has been pretty much all but expressly stated as being a modern day assault rifle, which is comparable to the las gun. Which in turn is depended upon by the Imperium for her armies to successfully stand up to those armors.
Sure an M4 won't dent the ceremite a marine wears, but what about their joints, servos, and optics?
And "bounce off" their armor is significantly down playing what is felt after taking a round in a ballistic vest. We also have these bullets that are known as "armor piercing" for pretty obvious reasons.
True or not, a lot of non-Americans consider the US army to be a bit of a joke compared to other fighting forces in the world.
The reason? The majority of war movies we see celebrate the American military. Its "Big Sword" syndrome. America talks itself up to ridiculous levels, so most other people, especially non-military types, think "they must be compensating for something."
It doesn't help that what most other countries mostly hear about regarding US troop movements is how many friendly fire incidents we've suffered through this month, and the fact that the American super-elite SEAL unit are considered to be cute by most other special forces. SWAT, Delta Force and the Rangers get more respect than the SEALs outside America.
Now, its not my intention to put the US armed forces or any Dakka members who are part of said armed forces down. I'm merely trying to offer reasons why people do such. I'm not a soldier and never intend to be a soldier, so I don't think I'm qualified to comment on real world militaries.
Ignatius wrote: Perhaps I did take it too personally but it's a little difficult not to.
But as someone who has seen out technology at work in person, as in standing next to some of our coolest developments, I don't believe a group of hypothetical soldiers can defeat us.
Biased? Sure. Correct? It's an opinion so it's impossible to be.
All I can say is that I've seen and done too many things to believe any argument about a defeat. My experience is obviously different than yours though
I took it personally too. On my last post which is quite recent, people were dissing America. I think the person on this particular page meant it as a joke but the others sure didn't.
And it's perfectly alright to be proud of that technology, maybe you can come up with the worlds first boltgun
Ignatius wrote: Perhaps I did take it too personally but it's a little difficult not to.
But as someone who has seen out technology at work in person, as in standing next to some of our coolest developments, I don't believe a group of hypothetical soldiers can defeat us.
Biased? Sure. Correct? It's an opinion so it's impossible to be.
All I can say is that I've seen and done too many things to believe any argument about a defeat. My experience is obviously different than yours though
I took it personally too. On my last post which is quite recent, people were dissing America. I think the person on this particular page meant it as a joke but the others sure didn't.
And it's perfectly alright to be proud of that technology, maybe you can come up with the worlds first boltgun
People already did come up with prototypes which operated on the same principle of the boltgun. It was scrapped because it was expensive and unreliable.
An auto gun has been pretty much all but expressly stated as being a modern day assault rifle, which is comparable to the las gun. Which in turn is depended upon by the Imperium for her armies to successfully stand up to those armors.
Sure an M4 won't dent the ceremite a marine wears, but what about their joints, servos, and optics?
And "bounce off" their armor is significantly down playing what is felt after taking a round in a ballistic vest. We also have these bullets that are known as "armor piercing" for pretty obvious reasons.
Right, and just how effective is the standard auto/lasgun shown to be against power armour? Or Eldar armour for that matter?
It isn't. It has no notable armour penetration capabilities. When someone fails their 3+ power armour save? That's your lucky or very carefully aimed shot hitting a joint or whatever. Your gun cannot penetrate the front plate of power armour. You might stagger the guy inside it a little, but the Marine probably has enough weight on him to avoid being knocked flat.
People already did come up with prototypes which operated on the same principle of the boltgun. It was scrapped because it was expensive and unreliable.
Expensive and unreliable?
So, just like bolters are shown to be in the fluff, ne?
An auto gun has been pretty much all but expressly stated as being a modern day assault rifle, which is comparable to the las gun. Which in turn is depended upon by the Imperium for her armies to successfully stand up to those armors.
Sure an M4 won't dent the ceremite a marine wears, but what about their joints, servos, and optics?
And "bounce off" their armor is significantly down playing what is felt after taking a round in a ballistic vest. We also have these bullets that are known as "armor piercing" for pretty obvious reasons.
Right, and just how effective is the standard auto/lasgun shown to be against power armour? Or Eldar armour for that matter?
It isn't. It has no notable armour penetration capabilities. When someone fails their 3+ power armour save? That's your lucky or very carefully aimed shot hitting a joint or whatever. Your gun cannot penetrate the front plate of power armour. You might stagger the guy inside it a little, but the Marine probably has enough weight on him to avoid being knocked flat.
Thing is, our ballistic weapons would be more effective against power armour than lasguns for the simple fact that a lasgun would dissipate all of its energy on the point it hits due to it being a laser.
Our rounds, on the other hand, would be deflected due to the curvature of the marine armour. And, due to the really poor design of power armour, these deflections typically go straight into joints including the shoulder, neck, back of the knee, upper thigh etc. Power Armour was designed by someone who knew feth all about effective armour design.
Furyou Miko wrote:True or not, a lot of non-Americans consider the US army to be a bit of a joke compared to other fighting forces in the world.
The reason? The majority of war movies we see celebrate the American military. Its "Big Sword" syndrome. America talks itself up to ridiculous levels, so most other people, especially non-military types, think "they must be compensating for something."
It doesn't help that what most other countries mostly hear about regarding US troop movements is how many friendly fire incidents we've suffered through this month, and the fact that the American super-elite SEAL unit are considered to be cute by most other special forces. SWAT, Delta Force and the Rangers get more respect than the SEALs outside America.
Now, its not my intention to put the US armed forces or any Dakka members who are part of said armed forces down. I'm merely trying to offer reasons why people do such. I'm not a soldier and never intend to be a soldier, so I don't think I'm qualified to comment on real world militaries.
It's alright, I know pretty first handily how people outside the United States view our military.
SWAT is a police organization and is not a part of our military so that's interesting they are getting more respect than SEALs. Being an army guy myself, I agree that the SEALs are over hyped (perhaps a bit like the Space marines? ) and that Delta Force is the Bees Knees. Rangers aren't Special Forces either, and as excited as I am to get my Ranger rocker in a year or so I don't know if I can honestly say they compare to the SEALs.
Look at the Israeli special forces if you want a real good example of world class military units. Man those guys are tough.
I'll also tell you that there are a great many people in the United States that look at the military with disdain. I've been thanked and saluted walking the street in a uniform just as many times as I've been damned and spit on. And I'm almost afraid of wearing my uniform on my college campus for the hate I get too
An auto gun has been pretty much all but expressly stated as being a modern day assault rifle, which is comparable to the las gun. Which in turn is depended upon by the Imperium for her armies to successfully stand up to those armors.
Sure an M4 won't dent the ceremite a marine wears, but what about their joints, servos, and optics?
And "bounce off" their armor is significantly down playing what is felt after taking a round in a ballistic vest. We also have these bullets that are known as "armor piercing" for pretty obvious reasons.
Right, and just how effective is the standard auto/lasgun shown to be against power armour? Or Eldar armour for that matter?
It isn't. It has no notable armour penetration capabilities. When someone fails their 3+ power armour save? That's your lucky or very carefully aimed shot hitting a joint or whatever. Your gun cannot penetrate the front plate of power armour. You might stagger the guy inside it a little, but the Marine probably has enough weight on him to avoid being knocked flat.
I was pointing out that the weapon (las gun) has been depicted as able to hit sensors and joints in the fluff, so why can't an M4? We've also got a lot of specialized weapons the military can hand out to common soldiers that fire a round larger than the 5.56 (7.62). I also understand that armor piercing rounds still won't go into ceremite, I was just pointing out that we have equipment to deal with pretty much anything found today, with a lot of crap that I have no idea for what purpose it was created in the first place.
One thing I feel like we have completely left out is air power. The marines have what? Storm talons? An F22, F35, Mig35 or SU47 (wonky looking thing that SU47 is) seems to outclass the tiny helicopter looking storm talon. But maybe that's just me.
Well, yeah, the Storm Talon is basically a fat Comanche. >> and against a real combat aircraft... well, there's a reason the Comanche was discontinued as a project.
The Storm Talon is atrocious and it doesn't matter if it has a wind shield that can shrug off nuclear weapons, those massive turbines on the sides are just waiting for a sidewinder to plow it into the ground.
Furyou Miko wrote: True or not, a lot of non-Americans consider the US army to be a bit of a joke compared to other fighting forces in the world.
The reason? The majority of war movies we see celebrate the American military. Its "Big Sword" syndrome. America talks itself up to ridiculous levels, so most other people, especially non-military types, think "they must be compensating for something."
It doesn't help that what most other countries mostly hear about regarding US troop movements is how many friendly fire incidents we've suffered through this month, and the fact that the American super-elite SEAL unit are considered to be cute by most other special forces. SWAT, Delta Force and the Rangers get more respect than the SEALs outside America.
Now, its not my intention to put the US armed forces or any Dakka members who are part of said armed forces down. I'm merely trying to offer reasons why people do such. I'm not a soldier and never intend to be a soldier, so I don't think I'm qualified to comment on real world militaries.
I won't stand for the insults of my armed military, who fight for my freedom everyday. Leave my country out of the picture.
I don't forgive such ignorance. You called my military a joke...that's awesome that my soldiers come home dead or missing limbs and sure...its a joke. Hate us all you want but dont spew your BS about how that stuff is a joke.
Lord Tarkin wrote: I don't forgive such ignorance. You called my military a joke...that's awesome that my soldiers come home dead or missing limbs and sure...its a joke. Hate us all you want but dont spew your BS about how that stuff is a joke.
What Ignatius said. Stop being angry and start reading. I am not your enemy.
Furyou Miko wrote: I find it extremely arrogant to believe that a 5.56 NATO round will do more than glance off power armour, heh.
Something you need to realise about 40k is that armour technology is insane. Ork Hide grants a 6+ save and has been stated in white dwarf (although it was a while ago) to be as tough as 20th century ballistic armour.
That means that a standard modern handgun firing lead-cored copper-jacketed bullets is going to bounce off what the 40k universe considers the lightest possible armour worth mentioning.
Orks are crazy. They're not hyper-augmented like Astartes, but can take a shot from a lasgun to the face and remain unfazed and keep charging, even blowing their brain out doesn't kill them. I'll always remember one plucky Ork from Siege of Castellax that has a lasgun burn a hole clean through his head. He/it only died when he poked his finger into the hole and realized he should be dead.
Even then, Orks can be healed by a Mad Dok just stitching the head back on to the nearest body.
Also, lasguns are waaaay beyond modern firearms in the power department. While they're a joke in 40K because of the scale, they'd be indispensable in real life. But an M4 won't do gak against power armor considering Marines can walk right through point blank frag grenades without any damage. But if we take Thules as Joules, the Lasgun is beyond the M4 as it's a 19 Megajoule shot.
Fair enough about the M4 vs las gun. I had just been going off the auto gun=lasgun (which in itself may not be true, but game wise it is) and auto gun= modern day assault rifle (again May not be true). It's all I had to go off.
I'll still assume that an M4 can go through the eye lenses of a marines helmet or some of the softer joints in his armor though.
No, just don't talk about my country like that, don't do it. It was completely uncalled for. I didn't ask you for a list of reasons as to why people hate America, I didn't did I? Just leave it alone.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ignatius wrote: I love your fervor Lord Tarkin, and the support you clearly have for our military. I wish everyone here was like you.
That said, miko didn't actually say our military was a joke, merely that there are a lot of people that do, and then gave reasons why.
Lots of people don't like us, and that's okay. And lots of people think we are a joke. And that's okay too. Doesn't mean they are right mind you.
Not how interpreted any of it. I don't appreciate it at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'll leave this alone now but I don't wanna see America come up again...ever again.
Besides, a marine in PA is heavy enough to trigger AT mines. The guy is tough and the armor might survive with only dents, but it's still going to land with liquified guy inside it after hitting 10 kilos of TNT.
Ignatius wrote: Fair enough about the M4 vs las gun. I had just been going off the auto gun=lasgun (which in itself may not be true, but game wise it is) and auto gun= modern day assault rifle (again May not be true). It's all I had to go off.
I'll still assume that an M4 can go through the eye lenses of a marines helmet or some of the softer joints in his armor though.
Also, Orks are fantastic.
You have to remember as well in 40K that autoguns are fifty caliber rifles normally. The eye lense is also reinforced, and Astartes consider the loss of an eyeball a flesh wound.
Yeah, Lasguns deal very lethal wounds and can blast limbs off. They are very powerful weapons compared to anything we have. These are considered flashlights compared to a lot of 40k guns.
TheCustomLime wrote: Yeah, Lasguns deal very lethal wounds and can blast limbs off. They are very powerful weapons compared to anything we have. These are considered flashlights compared to a lot of 40k guns.
Still, the idea that they're 19 Megajoules is fething nuts, that's on par with a tank cannon. I've always interpreted it as the power pack storing 19 megajoules of energy for all of their shots. So around 475,000,000 joules per shot instead of 19,000,000,000.
Ignatius wrote: Fair enough about the M4 vs las gun. I had just been going off the auto gun=lasgun (which in itself may not be true, but game wise it is) and auto gun= modern day assault rifle (again May not be true). It's all I had to go off.
I'll still assume that an M4 can go through the eye lenses of a marines helmet or some of the softer joints in his armor though.
Also, Orks are fantastic.
You have to remember as well in 40K that autoguns are fifty caliber rifles normally. The eye lense is also reinforced, and Astartes consider the loss of an eyeball a flesh wound.
I was so afraid of them being .50 caliber. So afraid. And now that it seems my fears are realized, so stupid. The idea of some dude running around with a .50 cal shoulder fired fully automatic weapon hurts my shoulder just thinking about it.
True enough about the loss of an eyeball being a flesh wound. However both? Now it's interesting. Perhaps he will be disabled long enough for a team to maneuver around and throw some C4 or something on him and take him out.
Also, I'm pretty confident a HEAT round from an M1 Abrams will punch right through a ceremite chest plate.
And are we ignoring air support? Because that's different. I'm not denying marines outclass well, me. But I've also got support from the likes of A-10s and AC-130s.
Ignatius wrote: Fair enough about the M4 vs las gun. I had just been going off the auto gun=lasgun (which in itself may not be true, but game wise it is) and auto gun= modern day assault rifle (again May not be true). It's all I had to go off.
I'll still assume that an M4 can go through the eye lenses of a marines helmet or some of the softer joints in his armor though.
Also, Orks are fantastic.
You have to remember as well in 40K that autoguns are fifty caliber rifles normally. The eye lense is also reinforced, and Astartes consider the loss of an eyeball a flesh wound.
I was so afraid of them being .50 caliber. So afraid. And now that it seems my fears are realized, so stupid. The idea of some dude running around with a .50 cal shoulder fired fully automatic weapon hurts my shoulder just thinking about it.
True enough about the loss of an eyeball being a flesh wound. However both? Now it's interesting. Perhaps he will be disabled long enough for a team to maneuver around and throw some C4 or something on him and take him out.
Also, I'm pretty confident a HEAT round from an M1 Abrams will punch right through a ceremite chest plate.
And are we ignoring air support? Because that's different. I'm not denying marines outclass well, me. But I've also got support from the likes of A-10s and AC-130s.
A-10's and AC-130's would be one-shotted by Lascannons, beautiful weapons those things are.
Also, if a space marine lost both his eyes... hm. Echolocation?
Ok, A-10s are low flying ground support planes and it's reasonable to believe a marine with his sharpened senses could grab one out of the air with a lascannon. But what about 30? 50? More? Any lascannon shooting the warthogs aren't shooting at the Abrams. Saturate the marines with targets and through attrition we'll get em!... Hopefully. Maybe?
Ignatius wrote: Fair enough about the M4 vs las gun. I had just been going off the auto gun=lasgun (which in itself may not be true, but game wise it is) and auto gun= modern day assault rifle (again May not be true). It's all I had to go off.
I'll still assume that an M4 can go through the eye lenses of a marines helmet or some of the softer joints in his armor though.
Also, Orks are fantastic.
You have to remember as well in 40K that autoguns are fifty caliber rifles normally. The eye lense is also reinforced, and Astartes consider the loss of an eyeball a flesh wound.
I was so afraid of them being .50 caliber. So afraid. And now that it seems my fears are realized, so stupid. The idea of some dude running around with a .50 cal shoulder fired fully automatic weapon hurts my shoulder just thinking about it.
True enough about the loss of an eyeball being a flesh wound. However both? Now it's interesting. Perhaps he will be disabled long enough for a team to maneuver around and throw some C4 or something on him and take him out.
Also, I'm pretty confident a HEAT round from an M1 Abrams will punch right through a ceremite chest plate.
And are we ignoring air support? Because that's different. I'm not denying marines outclass well, me. But I've also got support from the likes of A-10s and AC-130s.
A-10's and AC-130's would be one-shotted by Lascannons, beautiful weapons those things are.
Also, if a space marine lost both his eyes... hm. Echolocation?
A drone out of visual sight launches a pinpoint cruise missile onto the devastator squad. No more lascannons.
Space Marines fight really dumb. Why engage with the enemy at close range when you can just mark him up with two men in a tower block to guide a missile, launched from kilometres away, straight onto him? It's completely pointless and obsolete. Add in the fact that any opponent who has fought against chapters who follow the codex astartes religiously for any length of time can predict exactly what they will do in response to a strategy makes Space Marines a very easily beaten force.
We wouldn't fight Marines on their own terms as we'd lose. We'd fight them on our own terms, with guerilla warfare, ambushes and a non-rigid fighting style.
Ok, A-10s are low flying ground support planes and it's reasonable to believe a marine with his sharpened senses could grab one out of the air with a lascannon. But what about 30? 50? More? Any lascannon shooting the warthogs aren't shooting at the Abrams. Saturate the marines with targets and through attrition we'll get em!... Hopefully. Maybe?
Uh, I'm pretty sure we don't have fifty active A-10's. I thought the Air Force cut the number down to thirty or something as they decommission the A10's for being obsolete. And you don't fly 50 CAS in the same area, that's bloody suicide for the pilots and almost guarantees a crash. The only surefire to take out space marines is drop enough bombs to glass the area and cross your fingers they didn't run from the explosion. Although considering they probably landed in a highly populated area, that probably won't be an option.
Ignatius wrote: Fair enough about the M4 vs las gun. I had just been going off the auto gun=lasgun (which in itself may not be true, but game wise it is) and auto gun= modern day assault rifle (again May not be true). It's all I had to go off.
I'll still assume that an M4 can go through the eye lenses of a marines helmet or some of the softer joints in his armor though.
Also, Orks are fantastic.
You have to remember as well in 40K that autoguns are fifty caliber rifles normally. The eye lense is also reinforced, and Astartes consider the loss of an eyeball a flesh wound.
I was so afraid of them being .50 caliber. So afraid. And now that it seems my fears are realized, so stupid. The idea of some dude running around with a .50 cal shoulder fired fully automatic weapon hurts my shoulder just thinking about it.
True enough about the loss of an eyeball being a flesh wound. However both? Now it's interesting. Perhaps he will be disabled long enough for a team to maneuver around and throw some C4 or something on him and take him out.
Also, I'm pretty confident a HEAT round from an M1 Abrams will punch right through a ceremite chest plate.
And are we ignoring air support? Because that's different. I'm not denying marines outclass well, me. But I've also got support from the likes of A-10s and AC-130s.
A-10's and AC-130's would be one-shotted by Lascannons, beautiful weapons those things are.
Also, if a space marine lost both his eyes... hm. Echolocation?
A drone out of visual sight launches a pinpoint cruise missile onto the devastator squad. No more lascannons.
Space Marines fight really dumb. Why engage with the enemy at close range when you can just mark him up with two men in a tower block to guide a missile, launched from kilometres away, straight onto him? It's completely pointless and obsolete. Add in the fact that any opponent who has fought against chapters who follow the codex astartes religiously for any length of time can predict exactly what they will do in response to a strategy makes Space Marines a very easily beaten force.
We wouldn't fight Marines on their own terms as we'd lose. We'd fight them on our own terms, with guerilla warfare, ambushes and a non-rigid fighting style.
Uh, you do realize Techmarines can hack those drones? Especially considering you can buy basic software off the shelf at Best Buy and be able to scramble the GPS of a drone and make it crash into the ground?
If our planet was invaded by space marines, it wouldn't be beyond reasonable to imagine they would reactivate some old planes and other equipment to increase the numbers of fighting units. And okay, change drone with AC-130 as I previously mentioned. A space marine isn't going to target an gunship flying above cloud cover with a lascannon reliably.
Ignatius wrote: If our planet was invaded by space marines, it wouldn't be beyond reasonable to imagine they would reactivate some old planes and other equipment to increase the numbers of fighting units.
Yeah, but I'm not sure they'd be cleared to fire on a civilian populace. They'd probably get kills if they could survive long enough (or the strikeforce didn't bring lascannons), but you'd have to worry about a lot of civilian casualties and the government leaders being knocked out. Plus if collateral is A-OK, I'd go with high altitude stealth bombers instead.
Also, wait, can military drones even function without satellites? That might seriously prevent any proper defense from being put up.
Ignatius wrote: If our planet was invaded by space marines, it wouldn't be beyond reasonable to imagine they would reactivate some old planes and other equipment to increase the numbers of fighting units.
Yeah, but I'm not sure they'd be cleared to fire on a civilian populace. They'd probably get kills if they could survive long enough (or the strikeforce didn't bring lascannons), but you'd have to worry about a lot of civilian casualties and the government leaders being knocked out. Plus if collateral is A-OK, I'd go with high altitude stealth bombers instead.
Also, wait, can military drones even function without satellites? That might seriously prevent any proper defense from being put up.
Even without Drones we have high-altitude recon planes such as the U2. That can find the target, then use traditional laser targeting and piloted aircraft to deliver the strike.
Also, all of the space marine planes would be incapable of flying due to laughable aerodynamics so we'll have complete air superiority
Ignatius wrote: If our planet was invaded by space marines, it wouldn't be beyond reasonable to imagine they would reactivate some old planes and other equipment to increase the numbers of fighting units.
Yeah, but I'm not sure they'd be cleared to fire on a civilian populace. They'd probably get kills if they could survive long enough (or the strikeforce didn't bring lascannons), but you'd have to worry about a lot of civilian casualties and the government leaders being knocked out. Plus if collateral is A-OK, I'd go with high altitude stealth bombers instead.
Also, wait, can military drones even function without satellites? That might seriously prevent any proper defense from being put up.
Even without Drones we have high-altitude recon planes such as the U2. That can find the target, then use traditional laser targeting and piloted aircraft to deliver the strike.
Also, all of the space marine planes would be incapable of flying due to laughable aerodynamics so we'll have complete air superiority
But will drones work without any satellites for GPS coordination? Also, will you even be able to target them with a laser due to being near invisible on IR? You'd have to identify them with muzzle flash.
You can use a conventional hand held laser designator. We have lasers that are essentially a pair of binoculars that "lock onto" a target just by pointing at it and hitting a switch.
I'm not an Air Force guy button I'm still fairly confident that drones are remote operated and not used with satellites. Essentially a more sophisticated version of one of those little RC helicopters.
Ignatius wrote: If our planet was invaded by space marines, it wouldn't be beyond reasonable to imagine they would reactivate some old planes and other equipment to increase the numbers of fighting units.
Yeah, but I'm not sure they'd be cleared to fire on a civilian populace. They'd probably get kills if they could survive long enough (or the strikeforce didn't bring lascannons), but you'd have to worry about a lot of civilian casualties and the government leaders being knocked out. Plus if collateral is A-OK, I'd go with high altitude stealth bombers instead.
Also, wait, can military drones even function without satellites? That might seriously prevent any proper defense from being put up.
Even without Drones we have high-altitude recon planes such as the U2. That can find the target, then use traditional laser targeting and piloted aircraft to deliver the strike.
Also, all of the space marine planes would be incapable of flying due to laughable aerodynamics so we'll have complete air superiority
But will drones work without any satellites for GPS coordination? Also, will you even be able to target them with a laser due to being near invisible on IR? You'd have to identify them with muzzle flash.
A lot of them will be running around in brightly coloured armour. You won't need IR to spot them.
Also, some Laser Designators don't need the target to be visible in IR, as Ignatius said. Which makes sense because otherwise it would be really hard to mark a building or anything else the same temperature as its surroundings. And physically Marines would have to vent heat otherwise their armour would cook them alive. The Laws of Thermodynamics mean that some of the energy from their power pack would be wasted as heat (can't have a 100% efficient system) so there would be heat build up which would have to be vented.
You realise fighting guerilla warfare would be a bad idea if say, the Raven Guard were involved. They'd kick our asses in that regard lol.
Space Marines aren't really used for invasions anymore but more of a shock troops role. Sure they help massively but if the Imperium wanted to invade they'd send a few million Militarum guys first.
Plus Space Marines could always pull the "Do it or we turn your planet into slag." card
Ignatius wrote: If our planet was invaded by space marines, it wouldn't be beyond reasonable to imagine they would reactivate some old planes and other equipment to increase the numbers of fighting units.
Yeah, but I'm not sure they'd be cleared to fire on a civilian populace. They'd probably get kills if they could survive long enough (or the strikeforce didn't bring lascannons), but you'd have to worry about a lot of civilian casualties and the government leaders being knocked out. Plus if collateral is A-OK, I'd go with high altitude stealth bombers instead.
Also, wait, can military drones even function without satellites? That might seriously prevent any proper defense from being put up.
Even without Drones we have high-altitude recon planes such as the U2. That can find the target, then use traditional laser targeting and piloted aircraft to deliver the strike.
Also, all of the space marine planes would be incapable of flying due to laughable aerodynamics so we'll have complete air superiority
But will drones work without any satellites for GPS coordination? Also, will you even be able to target them with a laser due to being near invisible on IR? You'd have to identify them with muzzle flash.
A lot of them will be running around in brightly coloured armour. You won't need IR to spot them.
Also, some Laser Designators don't need the target to be visible in IR, as Ignatius said. Which makes sense because otherwise it would be really hard to mark a building or anything else the same temperature as its surroundings.
And physically Marines would have to vent heat otherwise their armour would cook them alive. The Laws of Thermodynamics mean that some of the energy from their power pack would be wasted as heat (can't have a 100% efficient system) so there would be heat build up which would have to be vented.
Not necessarily, released heat can be masked which is being developed for modern armor. Heat is still vented, but it's obscured and manipulated to hide it from view. And as for drones, just looked it up, UAV's do actually need satellites to function when line of sight for the main signal used to control it is lost, and IIRC they also need a working GPS to measure their altitude autonomously.
It takes months of planning, untold man power and logistics to invade a small country, let along control it. If hundreds of Space marines dropped out of the sky today and started quickly hunting down and killing targets, they would not last a week before we eliminated them.
Its just a dumb thing that GW adds to their already crazy and vague fluff without much thought put behind it.
Like you, I do not see it being possible. The only useful things Space marines can do is support an Imperial Guard force, or go hunting for lost artifacts.
I do hate Space Marines though so I am a little biased. But there is no way even a thousand marines could conquer a planet similar to ours in terms of population etc. let alone anything bigger.
You are aware that Marines have their own starships right?
You are aware we are talking about 1000 Marines (at maximum) right?
I do hate Space Marines though so I am a little biased.
Here is the gist of it.
If GW says a squad is enough, a squad is enough. Disliking it does not inherently make it false.
I never said false, just beyond stupid.
Not at maximum. A lot of chapters give the finger to the Codex Astartes.
The Space Wolves still operate as a legion.
And with 15 km starships that can mount weapons capable of leveling continents with a good shot, planet conquering is pretty easy.
hehe wasnt really meaning to be bashing the mericans.
I think your confidence is fething fantastic. Even if a bit skewed.
Well if you want to see over the horizon. So you can shoot your patriots, your battleships and ac's can do their jobs. You need your satellites. Only 50/50 accuracy anyway. telegrapgh wont pilot a nuke or put it in the right spot
Theres a quote from a Cpt. Imperial fist, even blind, unarmoured. i'll break your back. Think his name was Lexandro
Not necessarily, released heat can be masked which is being developed for modern armor. Heat is still vented, but it's obscured and manipulated to hide it from view. And as for drones, just looked it up, UAV's do actually need satellites to function when line of sight for the main signal used to control it is lost, and IIRC they also need a working GPS to measure their altitude autonomously.
That's pretty cool. Will be interesting to see it develop and what technology will be developed to counter it.
But when we consider the amount of heat that a Space Marine would have to dissipate I don't think that would be workable. A nuclear reactor produces a lot of heat. Hence why they need giant cooling towers.
Not necessarily, released heat can be masked which is being developed for modern armor. Heat is still vented, but it's obscured and manipulated to hide it from view. And as for drones, just looked it up, UAV's do actually need satellites to function when line of sight for the main signal used to control it is lost, and IIRC they also need a working GPS to measure their altitude autonomously.
That's pretty cool. Will be interesting to see it develop and what technology will be developed to counter it.
But when we consider the amount of heat that a Space Marine would have to dissipate I don't think that would be workable. A nuclear reactor produces a lot of heat. Hence why they need giant cooling towers.
-shrug- Tell that to GW. Plus they're already armored in the technobabble ceramic that is ceramite which absorbs a stupid amount of heat.
Not necessarily, released heat can be masked which is being developed for modern armor. Heat is still vented, but it's obscured and manipulated to hide it from view. And as for drones, just looked it up, UAV's do actually need satellites to function when line of sight for the main signal used to control it is lost, and IIRC they also need a working GPS to measure their altitude autonomously.
That's pretty cool. Will be interesting to see it develop and what technology will be developed to counter it.
But when we consider the amount of heat that a Space Marine would have to dissipate I don't think that would be workable. A nuclear reactor produces a lot of heat. Hence why they need giant cooling towers.
-shrug- Tell that to GW. Plus they're already armored in the technobabble ceramic that is ceramite which absorbs a stupid amount of heat.
Oh yeah, I know GW don't know the first thing about Physics when it comes to designing their universe.
Just think it's amusing to imagine drop pods landing and marines falling out cooked in their own armour after having arrived in a universe where Physics exists
Something something orbital bombardment + precision striking leaders and high value military complexes and in the issuing chaos systematically subjugate or annihilate the opposition.
Rinse and repeat. by removing a lot of our current space infrastructure basically destroys a great deal of our communication alone.
Edit: only a tiny amount of SM have to touch down at any given time.
Just think it's amusing to imagine drop pods landing and marines falling out cooked in their own armour after having arrived in a universe where Physics exists
That is, if their drop pods even make it to the ground. Someone should tell GW that we solved the whole "shoot down a really fast target dropping from space" problem way back in the 1950s.
Not necessarily, released heat can be masked which is being developed for modern armor. Heat is still vented, but it's obscured and manipulated to hide it from view. And as for drones, just looked it up, UAV's do actually need satellites to function when line of sight for the main signal used to control it is lost, and IIRC they also need a working GPS to measure their altitude autonomously.
That's pretty cool. Will be interesting to see it develop and what technology will be developed to counter it.
But when we consider the amount of heat that a Space Marine would have to dissipate I don't think that would be workable. A nuclear reactor produces a lot of heat. Hence why they need giant cooling towers.
-shrug- Tell that to GW. Plus they're already armored in the technobabble ceramic that is ceramite which absorbs a stupid amount of heat.
Oh yeah, I know GW don't know the first thing about Physics when it comes to designing their universe.
Just think it's amusing to imagine drop pods landing and marines falling out cooked in their own armour after having arrived in a universe where Physics exists
I think 19 Megathule/joule lasguns kinda cemented the idea that GW doesn't know a goddamn thing about basic science.
The Space Marines just destroy the government/military. Afterwords the Ministorum sends in the Confessors to convert the population to the Imperial Cult. Once everyone is nice and subdued they install a planetary governor, local defense force, etc.
Well, actually, the Ministorum probably already had several Sabines on world planting the seeds for the Imperial Cult to take root even before the Marines even knew that the planet existed...
People talk about Earth mounting a resistance against Space Marines as if we had any idea of what we were facing.
Assuming a company of Space Marines appeared in orbit in present day, there would be massive confusion here! Life from outer space has been confirmed! It's a colossal starship and- are those huge things guns? Uh-oh...
It'd depend on if the Space Marines wanted to conquer or exterminate. I'll assume they want to conquer. First, they will prepare the entire company to strike at a few places quick, ideally the largest cities. (Remember, we know NOTHING about them yet, they are unlike anything we have ever seen.)
By now, footage of these mysterious invaders will have spread, and we nerds recognise them, our jaws dropping as actual, physical Space Marines are proved to exist. The most insane of us will try to use our 'knowledge of Space Marines' to aid the military, but said people will naturally become laughing stock- why would you and your toy soldiers have any relevance at all? Hell, even if by some implausible method you manage to convince them, you don't even know if these are the same or just similar as the Marines you know. You quite simply know nothing.
Anyway, as said, the Marines make extremely rapid strikes via Drop Pods or possibly Thunderhawks, slamming down in Earth's largest cities, crushing government centres and causing general carnage, before returning to their ship before any kind of heavy resistance can be mounted. By now, we are in shock and terror, the invading giants using tech we have never seen the like of. Speculation and confusion reigns. Our surviving leaders do what they can to assess the situation and military leaders no doubt do their best to prepare a defense against planetary invasion.Terror is widespread, reports speak of sustained assault rifle fire or even massed grenades doing little more than annoy the rampaging giants while the return fire tears tanks open. Rumours pop up rapidly. Are they invincible? Are they gods? How could we possibly stop them?
Next, all our leaders recieve a message, the Space Marine Techmarines hacking into our most secure communications channels with contemptous ease. The Space Marine Captain explains who they are and that they are here to conquer our world. He explains that no more blood will be shed if we surrender and that if we accept the God-Emperor as our master, we will be able to continue to live our lives in peace.
This will create a lot of dissonance among the extremely disunited nations of Earth. Some countries, like Sweden, will doubtlessly choose to surrender quickly. Other countries, like the more fanatical ones, will choose to resist. Those who are the fiercest in their refusal will be attacked again, the Space Marines striking at whatever population center he nation's military is unable to cover effectively, crushing the resistance in the city before continuing to move on. Eventually most nations will surrender, at which point the war is effectively over, even if a few stragglers remain.
Hmm. That's plausible because of what you just said, the technology and the pure "i dont know a damn thing about these people." SM's win hands down. But in their own day and age it will likely be much harder.
I did rather enjoy reading that. Lol but a hive world in 40k is absurdly powerful. Modern day earth would be the same as SM's laying waste to a feral world....i mean, really
Lord Tarkin wrote: Hmm. That's plausible because of what you just said, the technology and the pure "i dont know a damn thing about these people." SM's win hands down. But in their own day and age it will likely be much harder.
I did rather enjoy reading that. Lol but a hive world in 40k is absurdly powerful. Modern day earth would be the same as SM's laying waste to a feral world....i mean, really
It makes no major difference. There's just one million Space Marines. They are as unknown to most humans in 40K as they are to us. The psychological factor is just as powerful.
Lord Tarkin wrote: Hmm. That's plausible because of what you just said, the technology and the pure "i dont know a damn thing about these people." SM's win hands down. But in their own day and age it will likely be much harder.
I did rather enjoy reading that. Lol but a hive world in 40k is absurdly powerful. Modern day earth would be the same as SM's laying waste to a feral world....i mean, really
It makes no major difference. There's just one million Space Marines. They are as unknown to most humans in 40K as they are to us. The psychological factor is just as powerful.
Oh, I didn't think about that. Well, SM's are just big bullies.
Ashiraya wrote: Anyway, as said, the Marines make extremely rapid strikes via Drop Pods or possibly Thunderhawks, slamming down in Earth's largest cities, crushing government centres and causing general carnage, before returning to their ship before any kind of heavy resistance can be mounted.
What would be the point of this? Just do it the easy way and nuke those targets from orbit.
How could we possibly stop them?
Nukes.
/thread
Next, all our leaders recieve a message, the Space Marine Techmarines hacking into our most secure communications channels with contemptous ease.
I don't think you understand how hacking works. You don't just press a magic "hack system" button and wait while a progress bar fills at a speed dependent on your skill level in hacking. A techmarine trying to hack modern computers would be in about the same situation as a modern software engineer trying to "hack" ancient clay tablets. Neither of them would even know the language they're dealing with, and would have to spend vast amounts of time and effort on learning the system before they could even attempt to "hack" anything.
The Space Marine Captain explains who they are and that they are here to conquer our world. He explains that no more blood will be shed if we surrender and that if we accept the God-Emperor as our master, we will be able to continue to live our lives in peace.
Which would only work because in the real world most people are fairly pragmatic and would rather submit than become martyrs. This isn't true in 40k, where religious zealots and genocidal crusades are the default and a planet will fight to the death until every single person capable of fighting has been killed (and then set off the planet's entire arsenal of nukes to deny it to the enemy).
Lord Tarkin wrote: Hmm. That's plausible because of what you just said, the technology and the pure "i dont know a damn thing about these people." SM's win hands down. But in their own day and age it will likely be much harder.
I did rather enjoy reading that. Lol but a hive world in 40k is absurdly powerful. Modern day earth would be the same as SM's laying waste to a feral world....i mean, really
You dont have to kill everything in a hive world to subdue it. You just have to remove its will to fight.
Kill/capture any leadership and crush the first few uprising with very public and showy displays of firepower ensuring a massive bodycount and the hives will to fight will be massively reduced.
Ofcourse for some of the massively fortified hives this wont work and a siege would be needed. SM are not suited for this kind of warfare and they would probably just settle for crushing any supply nodes outside the main hive while leaving the IG to siege the hive itself.
You don't need to 'hack into' earth's communications. You just need to broadcast a stronger signal on all channels that drowns out the normal transmissions.
Time it during a football match for maximum viewer coverage.
Orbital strikes would quickly destroy any nuclear launch sites.
Also would you be willing to nuke your own cities to kill a few dozen attackers?
You cant nuke their base as thats in orbit and defended by shields.
The president with his codes to launch the nukes is dead as are the joint chiefs. (killed in the initial attack)
Any communication that relied on radio's or sattelites is down or jammed.
Um, not sure they would use nukes if they knew they could claim the planet with a few orbital strikes and a swift drop to the surface to slaughter everything.
Lord Tarkin wrote: Hmm. That's plausible because of what you just said, the technology and the pure "i dont know a damn thing about these people." SM's win hands down. But in their own day and age it will likely be much harder.
I did rather enjoy reading that. Lol but a hive world in 40k is absurdly powerful. Modern day earth would be the same as SM's laying waste to a feral world....i mean, really
You dont have to kill everything in a hive world to subdue it. You just have to remove its will to fight.
Kill/capture any leadership and crush the first few uprising with very public and showy displays of firepower ensuring a massive bodycount and the hives will to fight will be massively reduced.
Ofcourse for some of the massively fortified hives this wont work and a siege would be needed. SM are not suited for this kind of warfare and they would probably just settle for crushing any supply nodes outside the main hive while leaving the IG to siege the hive itself.
Of course, I was just being dramatic. Subduing planets is always an objective first explored by diplomacy, intimidation and military strategy. Unfortunately hive worlds can be larger than any SM chapter would find comfortable battling and they would need IG to be of severe assisstance. I always stress that but SM's will almost always need IG to complete their objectives
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furyou Miko wrote: You don't need to 'hack into' earth's communications. You just need to broadcast a stronger signal on all channels that drowns out the normal transmissions.
Time it during a football match for maximum viewer coverage.
Mythantor wrote: The president with his codes to launch the nukes is dead as are the joint chiefs. (killed in the initial attack)
Funny enough, British nuke subs require nothing except the Captain saying launch... Though he does have to check his letter from the Prime Minister first. Most often it will tell him to check with NATO command first, but he's totally free to do what he wants if that fails.
edit: They're revenge weapons, for the eventuality that the UK has been wiped out.
Mythantor wrote: The president with his codes to launch the nukes is dead as are the joint chiefs. (killed in the initial attack)
Funny enough, British nuke subs require nothing except the Captain saying launch... Though he does have to check his letter from the Prime Minister first. Most often it will tell him to check with NATO command first, but he's totally free to do what he wants if that fails.
Pretty sure any captain of a Nuclear equipped submarine would have the authority to launch if the command structure had completely broken down.
Mythantor wrote: The president with his codes to launch the nukes is dead as are the joint chiefs. (killed in the initial attack)
Funny enough, British nuke subs require nothing except the Captain saying launch... Though he does have to check his letter from the Prime Minister first. Most often it will tell him to check with NATO command first, but he's totally free to do what he wants if that fails.
edit: They're revenge weapons, for the eventuality that the UK has been wiped out.
Mythantor wrote: The president with his codes to launch the nukes is dead as are the joint chiefs. (killed in the initial attack)
Funny enough, British nuke subs require nothing except the Captain saying launch... Though he does have to check his letter from the Prime Minister first. Most often it will tell him to check with NATO command first, but he's totally free to do what he wants if that fails.
edit: They're revenge weapons, for the eventuality that the UK has been wiped out.
congratulations youve just nuked one of your own cities for no gain.
Why attack the city when we can attack their capital ship?
The US alone has around 450 active ICBMs, each one packing 3 400 kiloton warheads. So combined that would be 540 megatons. That is around 2.3 exajoules (10^18) The US also has around 240 active SLBMs, each one with up to 8 475 kiloton warheads. So that can combine to around 912 megatons. That's around 3.8 exajoules
So that's already 6000000000000000000J of energy their shield will have to dissipate and that's before we add in Russia and China.
Mythantor wrote: The president with his codes to launch the nukes is dead as are the joint chiefs. (killed in the initial attack)
Funny enough, British nuke subs require nothing except the Captain saying launch... Though he does have to check his letter from the Prime Minister first. Most often it will tell him to check with NATO command first, but he's totally free to do what he wants if that fails.
edit: They're revenge weapons, for the eventuality that the UK has been wiped out.
congratulations youve just nuked one of your own cities for no gain.
Why attack the city when we can attack their capital ship?
The US alone has around 450 active ICBMs, each one packing 3 400 kiloton warheads. So combined that would be 540 megatons. That is around 2.3 terajoules. The US also has around 240 active SLBMs, each one with up to 14 475 kiloton warheads. So that can combine to around 1,596 megatons. That's around 6.7 terajoules
So that's already 8 terajoules of energy that shield will have to dissipate and that's before we add in Russia and China.
That won't do anything. Not only are they easily capable of shooting those down with lances, weapons in 40k naval combat average around at the double to triple digit gigatons for basic firepower, going waaaaay up from there. Plus given their weapon ranges, unless they're dropping off troops they might even be right by the moon. Just, no, you aren't shooting a strike cruiser out of orbit, launching nukes at it is just a superb way to commit global suicide.
Why attack the city when we can attack their capital ship?
Because Void Shields and point-defense lasers don't give a feth about your nuclear missiles.
They have a limit of their lasers tracking systems. We have a ton of MIRVs.
Also, if Void Shields can be brought down with Railguns then Nukes can do the same, no problem.
Except again, you're forgetting that void shields can tank a full barrage of continent busting munitions. Our nuclear supply is simply pitiful and nothing compared tot he amount of firepower Strike Cruisers and other naval frigates are designed to give out and tank.
"Every weapon in the battleship’s arsenal was prepared and oriented down at the surface; torpedo arrays filled with warshots that could atomise whole continents in a single strike, energy cannons capable of boiling off oceans, kinetic killers that could behead mountains through the brute force of their impact. This was only the power of the ship itself; then there was the minor fleet of auxiliary craft aboard it, wings of fighters and bombers that could come screaming down into Dagonet’s atmosphere on plumes of white fire. Swift death bringers that could raze cities, burn nations."
Pg.561 Nemesis
’VANDIRE’S TEETH!’ Milos Caparan cursed, triggering his starboard thrusters and jinking the two hundred tonne attack bomber out
of the path of a kilometre-wide explosive starburst which filled the view out of the cockpit’s main viewing port. All around the
lead Starhawk, the hard vacuum of space was filled with similar explosions and energy bursts. At this range - still almost one
thousand kilometres away from the target - a direct hit was almost impossible, but each energy blast emitted a burst of widespread
and high-intensity radiation lethal to both a bomber’s crew and control systems, while each exploding anti-ordnance missile
warhead or mass-reactive shell threw out a hail of shrapnel that could cover a volume of space tens of kilometres across.
Caparan activated one of the runes on his comm-link console, sending out an automated status request to the rest of his squadron.
Elsewhere, he knew, the other squadron commanders in the attack wave would be doing likewise. The cockpit’s open-channel
comm-link squawked to life as the responses came flooding back.
-Execution hour, page 16, pdf version
Yeah, y'know Vulkan Mega Bolters? Those things mounted on Titans? Those are used as point defense cannons.
Necrostar Antiversal was spitting massive hullcutter missiles at the Imperial flagship, and its primary energy batteries were cycling up to strike.
Sepiterna, an almost stationary island ten kilometres long, reached out to deny the obdurate intruder. Beam weapons, red sparks in the brown twilight of the void, found and neutralised the running missiles, igniting quick flashes of white fire.
- pg. 224
Imperial point defense is really good against missiles.
"A mighty Repulsive-class Grand Cruiser with powerful reactors and heavy armour in sloping facets of adamantine and ceramite scores of metres thick, the vessel carried a weight of armament and ordnance that could reduce a continent to ruins with a single salvo."-Black Crusade
Lots of gigatons.
"Standing off at a distance of two parsecs were the Gothic Class Battlecruisers Intolerance, Indestructability and Righteous Power. Each ship carried a payload of one hundred Hellfire class nuclear missiles. The payload of a Hellfire is one hundred and twelve sub-munitions, each one with a five giga-tonne warhead. If the vanguard failed, the vessel would be fusion bombed, down to a fine powder."
While not relevant for a strike cruiser, this is a good one for showing the kind of nukes the Imperium uses for their biggest ships.
"From the window of the chapel, through the panes of stained glass, he watched Dynikas V turning away from him, as if it were afraid to show its face. Nuclear firestorms the size of continents crossed the surface, shock-rings from multiple detonations boring down into the mantle and bedrock of the ocean world. The seas were already boiling into void as the atmosphere dissipated, the orbiting gunskulls consumed by the same fires. Within a day, perhaps less, the fifth planet would be little more than a scorched ember, and everything on it just a memory. The taint of Chaos and of the alien had been scoured clean."
Fireballs the size of continents from bombardment.
"The Aggressor Libertus, a significant ship in its own right, began firing as it turned, loosing as much as it could at the oncoming [TORMAGEDDON MONSTRUM REX]. The daemon ship's shields held firm. The Libertus's barrage, enough to strip a hive down to the mantle, spattered off the voidshields like firecrackers." - Salvation's
Barrages that strip hive cities down to the mantle of the planet.
Nightbringer said:
Few men knew the awesome power of destruction the captain of a starship possessed; the power to level cities and crack continents
And more continent cracking being mentioned. I think you get the picture.
I don't buy into this notion that the worlds population will submit to alien attacks. I don't believe we will get up and say "okay you win, I'll believe in a god emperor now".
We can't get Muslims and Jews to even be in the same room with each other due to their religious beliefs, yet you think they'll willingly lay done their arms to a new dogma? That goes for pretty much any religion on the planet.
Before this thread I would have assumed that most people would rather die fighting than be subjugated. Perhaps that is more to do with the normal people I am around every day (people who would rather die fighting than see the country fall)
Yes thank you, you're going to have to bring me one hell of a nasty situation for me to want to die to avoid it. There's always hope as long as you live, but if you're dead there's nothing you can do.
I did mention that certain nations would undoubtedly resist more, but they would be targeted.
I really am not very nationalistic beyond 'Hey, Sweden is pretty cool.'
Ignatius wrote: Fair enough about the M4 vs las gun. I had just been going off the auto gun=lasgun (which in itself may not be true, but game wise it is) and auto gun= modern day assault rifle (again May not be true). It's all I had to go off.
I'll still assume that an M4 can go through the eye lenses of a marines helmet or some of the softer joints in his armor though.
Also, Orks are fantastic.
You have to remember as well in 40K that autoguns are fifty caliber rifles normally. The eye lense is also reinforced, and Astartes consider the loss of an eyeball a flesh wound.
I was so afraid of them being .50 caliber. So afraid. And now that it seems my fears are realized, so stupid. The idea of some dude running around with a .50 cal shoulder fired fully automatic weapon hurts my shoulder just thinking about it.
While not exactly what was being discussed, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_Beowulf. Having a fully automatic .50 cal assult rifle is not impossible. Also it has been noted in game terms that SM power armor is roughly the equivalent of APC armor. In game terms back then power armored troops firing out of a hatch did not make the vehical open topped because their armor was a tough as their vehicals. Just saying.
Ashiraya wrote: Yes thank you, you're going to have to bring me one hell of a nasty situation for me to want to die to avoid it. There's always hope as long as you live, but if you're dead there's nothing you can do.
I did mention that certain nations would undoubtedly resist more, but they would be targeted.
I really am not very nationalistic beyond 'Hey, Sweden is pretty cool.'
And that's fair. I suppose I was more ignorant and making assumptions about people I shouldn't make
Still doesn't change my view that the marines couldn't defeat us. Just pointing out I wouldn't be around to find out who wins anyways
slade the sniper wrote: they must be packing about 2,000 to 3,000 rounds a piece, never use suppressive fire, get one shot kills with every shot while on the move at 10's of Km/h, incredibly accurate real time intel down to individual enemies while still having absolute complete control of the tactical, operational and strategic (or global, I suppose) enemy order of battle, never eat, never sleep, have immunity to indirect fire, mines, ambushes, and be able to have global maneuverability in mere minutes/an hour at max, never have jammed commo...
-STS
Thats exactly what space marines can, are, and will do, all the time.
A thousand Marines can definitely enforce enough violence and damage to crush the big stuff on a planet like earth, globally, all governments, all potent threats (to a space marine, and current day earth don't have many). A thousand marines can crush the only major threating opposition across the entire globe of earth, with minimal casualties. The guard come in after and mop all the dirt. A planet like present day earth would only require one chapter and some guard backup.
Remember, machine, computer and human willpower/soul lifeforce have become one, and have been indoctrinated for a lot longer than our piss poor society has been alive into the greatest killers in the sequestered nuthouse this galaxy is.
Ignatius wrote: I don't buy into this notion that the worlds population will submit to alien attacks. I don't believe we will get up and say "okay you win, I'll believe in a god emperor now".
We can't get Muslims and Jews to even be in the same room with each other due to their religious beliefs, yet you think they'll willingly lay done their arms to a new dogma? That goes for pretty much any religion on the planet.
Before this thread I would have assumed that most people would rather die fighting than be subjugated. Perhaps that is more to do with the normal people I am around every day (people who would rather die fighting than see the country fall)
I suppose I'm in the minority though.
I have a feeling people might be suddenly inclined to happily lay down and surrender if a Strike Cruiser, say, slags the capital with either one or two shots.
Ignatius wrote: I don't buy into this notion that the worlds population will submit to alien attacks. I don't believe we will get up and say "okay you win, I'll believe in a god emperor now".
We can't get Muslims and Jews to even be in the same room with each other due to their religious beliefs, yet you think they'll willingly lay done their arms to a new dogma? That goes for pretty much any religion on the planet.
Before this thread I would have assumed that most people would rather die fighting than be subjugated. Perhaps that is more to do with the normal people I am around every day (people who would rather die fighting than see the country fall)
I suppose I'm in the minority though.
I have a feeling people might be suddenly inclined to happily lay down and surrender if a Strike Cruiser, say, slags the capital with either one or two shots.
Yeah, the glorious sacrifice for the nation is a bit less glorious if you're orbital bombardmented.
Ignatius wrote: I don't buy into this notion that the worlds population will submit to alien attacks. I don't believe we will get up and say "okay you win, I'll believe in a god emperor now".
We can't get Muslims and Jews to even be in the same room with each other due to their religious beliefs, yet you think they'll willingly lay done their arms to a new dogma? That goes for pretty much any religion on the planet.
Before this thread I would have assumed that most people would rather die fighting than be subjugated. Perhaps that is more to do with the normal people I am around every day (people who would rather die fighting than see the country fall)
I suppose I'm in the minority though.
I have a feeling people might be suddenly inclined to happily lay down and surrender if a Strike Cruiser, say, slags the capital with either one or two shots.
Yeah, the glorious sacrifice for the nation is a bit less glorious if you're orbital bombardmented.
Ignatius wrote: I am beyond confident that the. United States military would be completely capable of the destruction of an entire Space Marines chapter.
The collective psyche and technologically advanced weapons of a chapter of space marines (which they themselves are weapons, where earth soldiers are but men - prone to weakness) would crush the USA and all others.
Ignatius wrote: I am beyond confident that the. United States military would be completely capable of the destruction of an entire Space Marines chapter.
The collective psyche and technologically advanced weapons of a chapter of space marines (which they themselves are weapons, where earth soldiers are but men - prone to weakness) would crush the USA and all others.
To clarify: HuNtEr did not specifically target the US with this post.
Ignatius wrote: I don't buy into this notion that the worlds population will submit to alien attacks. I don't believe we will get up and say "okay you win, I'll believe in a god emperor now".
We can't get Muslims and Jews to even be in the same room with each other due to their religious beliefs, yet you think they'll willingly lay done their arms to a new dogma? That goes for pretty much any religion on the planet.
Before this thread I would have assumed that most people would rather die fighting than be subjugated. Perhaps that is more to do with the normal people I am around every day (people who would rather die fighting than see the country fall)
I suppose I'm in the minority though.
I have a feeling people might be suddenly inclined to happily lay down and surrender if a Strike Cruiser, say, slags the capital with either one or two shots.
Yeah, the glorious sacrifice for the nation is a bit less glorious if you're orbital bombardmented.
Ignatius wrote: I don't buy into this notion that the worlds population will submit to alien attacks. I don't believe we will get up and say "okay you win, I'll believe in a god emperor now".
We can't get Muslims and Jews to even be in the same room with each other due to their religious beliefs, yet you think they'll willingly lay done their arms to a new dogma? That goes for pretty much any religion on the planet.
Before this thread I would have assumed that most people would rather die fighting than be subjugated. Perhaps that is more to do with the normal people I am around every day (people who would rather die fighting than see the country fall)
I suppose I'm in the minority though.
I have a feeling people might be suddenly inclined to happily lay down and surrender if a Strike Cruiser, say, slags the capital with either one or two shots.
Yeah, the glorious sacrifice for the nation is a bit less glorious if you're orbital bombardmented.
I see you made a new word there.
+1 for the creation of a new word
Don't ruin my extraordinary sacrifice to keep the people of Earth free from Space Marines that's kicking around my head
Ignatius wrote: I am beyond confident that the. United States military would be completely capable of the destruction of an entire Space Marines chapter.
The collective psyche and technologically advanced weapons of a chapter of space marines (which they themselves are weapons, where earth soldiers are but men - prone to weakness) would crush the USA and all others.
Themanwiththeplan wrote: When the loyalist WE's (their numbers I'm guessing in the thousands) are holding off a whole city (hundreds of thousands) they seemed a bit 'busy' to do much else but fight off simple civilians. These people were armed with everything and anything, including shards of pottery. And they still managed to take down a WE or two.
to say normal people have not a chance against SM's is laughable. Numbers make up for poor quality more times than not.
One on one anything can happen. Usually, you die, the marine wins.
A chapter will lay waste to everything.
The marine's spaceships and ships would crush every kind of aircraft known on earth. We don't have the capability to control the space nor the skies. By the time the tanks land, if they even have to land at all, half the battle is over.
I don't think the Marines have the numbers to take Earth unless they use orbital bombardment to lay waste to most of it if we're talking a single chapter. 1,000 is a tiny amount of soldiers regardless of strength.
TheCustomLime wrote: I don't think the Marines have the numbers to take Earth unless they use orbital bombardment to lay waste to most of it if we're talking a single chapter. 1,000 is a tiny amount of soldiers regardless of strength.
Thats exactly my point. Earth doesn't stand a chance., because there is no spacefleet! Nor air superiority. Nothing can match the space marine invasion fleet. Boots probably don't even have to hit the ground. The advanced weapons will scorch all the targets, and there could (if they cared enough) still be a planet to settle, to the let the guardsman settle.
I presume that the hero stories in the fluff about a chapter taking over a planet, well, said planet is probably similar to our modern earth prison.
What ships do marines have that can crush all our aircraft? Their aircraft don't seem to be built following any sort of actual thought that normally goes into creating fixed wing aircraft
The wings on the space marine low altitude or whatever you call it (the ones that can't go in space?) aircraft, they don't use their wings like our hollow aircraft do. They have much more powerful engines, thrusters to push themselves around.
They are built like flying tanks.
Also, the missiles compared to each other - space marine missile owns our fighter jets in one hit, our aircraft puts some dents in it after a few hits
Those numbers aren't final, but thats an easy way of putting it.
The technology doesn't stack, the weapons don't stack.
Ignatius wrote: What ships do marines have that can crush all our aircraft? Their aircraft don't seem to be built following any sort of actual thought that normally goes into creating fixed wing aircraft
This. Space Marine aircraft could not fly. If they actually managed to get off the ground they would be less manoeuvrable that fighter planes from world war 2 like the Spitfire.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote: The wings on the space marine low altitude or whatever you call it (the ones that can't go in space?) aircraft, they don't use their wings like our hollow aircraft do. They have much more powerful engines, thrusters to push themselves around.
They are built like flying tanks.
Also, the missiles compared to each other - space marine missile owns our fighter jets in one hit, our aircraft puts some dents in it after a few hits
Those numbers aren't final, but thats an easy way of putting it.
The technology doesn't stack, the weapons don't stack.
A missile can't hit a fighter that is behind you because you decided to build a flying tank rather than an effective fighter.
And really, space marine aircraft fail at being flying tanks for the simple fact that the engines must be exposed and therefore are weak points on the structure. Take out the engines and it would drop out of the sky in an uncontrolled plummet.
Okay but if you increase the weight of a ship, then you have to increase the amount of power and fuel needed, as well as the strength of the engines just to keep it at normal standards.
So a space marine ship might be like a tank, but it would also require massive engines and an unbelievable amount of energy to keep it flying. Which isn't itself condemning of the marines combat ability, but it does have implications.
There is a reason why our lanes today are light on armor (i.e none). It's to maximize speed, which is much more significant to being able to successfully complete the job that it was made to do. Which is shoot down other planes (at least in the case of fighters like F-22s and such).
And here is where we disagree and why we won't be able to actually change each other's minds. You believe that our weapons will have a negligible impact on anything the marines have, where as I believe that our technology and weapons are more than capable of not only maiming and destroying marines, but also causing massive amounts of damage to everything they have available.
No, space marines are a flawed and outdated concept of "bigger is better". There is nothing practical or useful about a Space marine to even be useful for anything but costing a crap ton of money. Its just childish super hero nonsense to think Space marines are as awesome as you described. In reality they wouldnt last at all in a gun fight. Bullets wont harmlessly bounce off them. The bullets would start hitting vital joints, visors and sensors, even the bolt gun would be subject to a hail of gunfire. Let alone support weapons like mortars and grenade launchers shattering ribs and shocking their targets.
There is a reason the only possible way A space marine unit can take over a planet is through the navy. Why? Because there is no logical way a space marine can win anything. Why? Because they are so stupidly written that its simply a "because space marines are cool and strong" excuse for anything they do.
I wont bother saying anymore, because I know people like SPace Marines and while I think the concept can be cool, there is no way a Space marine could do anything more than a normal soldier in combat. If anything their size and bulk would hinder them in combat. Let alone the fact that they cant help but scream running towards the enemy as their main tactic.
Space Marines are simply incapable of being efficient at anything when you think about it. Let alone how Much food a Space Marine would need to consume to stay active. They would have to carry so much food it would be a hindrance. Also think about how many Marines would die just trying to land from their Drop Pods? Nothing about them is practical or worth keeping them for.
Of course, maybe you can stretch reality better than I can.
Space marines are in 40k for the same reason the robots and monsters are in the Pacific Rim movie. mindless action that doesn't need reasoning or thought. because as soon as you think about it, it all falls apart
marines don't need food, so they don't need to carry food, don't need sleep, have superior technology across the board, meaning their intel is vastly more intricate than earth's, have flying tanks armored with adamantium (that makes them super tanks because their armor is impervious to all but the most powerful missiles current day earth had), ie, space ships, with friggen laser beams. If they even feel the need to, well, their tanks on the ground? are fething amazingly tough. Your tanks wont do gak.
Finally, if they actually set foot, its already over.
- - -
It would appear absurd to a closed box. You have to remember, these THINGS are not humans. They are weapons. Your mortar rounds will not break apart their tanks nor their troops, maybe if you get lucky and hit a scout, but opther than that, super armor the likes of which your weapons have never met before. Your materials are not up to this code, the marines materials and technology outclass everything this planet has.
But its the navy, the space marines gawd damn space ships - theres not a single thing current day earth could do against a chapter of marines 1000 strong. Earth or any planet like it would fall in days, and then the marines would leave as soon as they came, and the guard come in to suffocate every nook and cranny on earth with their sheer numbers.
Space Marine air shipsare quite crappy as dedicated aircraft. They are okay at being gunships and transports but even against our own aircraft they'd be wrecked. Thankfully that's what the Imperial Navy and their awesome ships are for.
Ignatius wrote: Okay but if you increase the weight of a ship, then you have to increase the amount of power and fuel needed, as well as the strength of the engines just to keep it at normal standards.
So a space marine ship might be like a tank, but it would also require massive engines and an unbelievable amount of energy to keep it flying. Which isn't itself condemning of the marines combat ability, but it does have implications.
There is a reason why our lanes today are light on armor (i.e none). It's to maximize speed, which is much more significant to being able to successfully complete the job that it was made to do. Which is shoot down other planes (at least in the case of fighters like F-22s and such).
And here is where we disagree and why we won't be able to actually change each other's minds. You believe that our weapons will have a negligible impact on anything the marines have, where as I believe that our technology and weapons are more than capable of not only maiming and destroying marines, but also causing massive amounts of damage to everything they have available.
But our weapons are inferior. To me this is obvious.
The marine ships have the required fuel and power, and have strong enough engines to keep them running at their normal standards. Our jets are paper airplanes compared to these monsters of excess.
The technology gap is so great, current day earth wouldn't scratch the marines.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheCustomLime wrote: Space Marine air shipsare quite crappy as dedicated aircraft. They are okay at being gunships and transports but even against our own aircraft they'd be wrecked. Thankfully that's what the Imperial Navy and their awesome ships are for.
The marine and guard both use fairly similar aircraft.
Our aluminum aircraft with decent missiles are nothing against the pinnacle of war - these ships are old school looking but they are made from adamantium and other materials incredibly more strong than our own, and despite the supposed weight of it all, they still fly fast. Their weapons are better than ours. Better missiles than ours, in conjunction with heavy lasers, etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post: tiny numbers of space marines conquer many planets because they are made for it from birth. Everything they do leads up to something like this - current day earth wouldn't stand a chance.
These stories of tiny amounts of marines taking over planets are probably about planets similar in strength to our own. Anything stronger and there would be more guard support.
I doubt that the marines would come alone - they'd come with a hell of alot of guardsmen and imperial navy.
Ignatius wrote: Okay but if you increase the weight of a ship, then you have to increase the amount of power and fuel needed, as well as the strength of the engines just to keep it at normal standards.
So a space marine ship might be like a tank, but it would also require massive engines and an unbelievable amount of energy to keep it flying. Which isn't itself condemning of the marines combat ability, but it does have implications.
There is a reason why our lanes today are light on armor (i.e none). It's to maximize speed, which is much more significant to being able to successfully complete the job that it was made to do. Which is shoot down other planes (at least in the case of fighters like F-22s and such).
And here is where we disagree and why we won't be able to actually change each other's minds. You believe that our weapons will have a negligible impact on anything the marines have, where as I believe that our technology and weapons are more than capable of not only maiming and destroying marines, but also causing massive amounts of damage to everything they have available.
But our weapons are inferior. To me this is obvious.
The marine ships have the required fuel and power, and have strong enough engines to keep them running at their normal standards. Our jets are paper airplanes compared to these monsters of excess.
The technology gap is so great, current day earth wouldn't scratch the marines.
Heavier it is, bigger engines it needs. Bigger engines it needs, more fuel it needs. More fuel it needs, heavier it is.
It will be spending most of its fuel lifting its fuel rather than actually accelerating.
And again, its engines are vulnerable and it will not be able to perform anywhere near the level of aeronautical tricks our planes can do due to a lovely little equation called Force = Mass * Acceleration.
Its engines have a maximum force, and so for each extra bit of weight, it's acceleration goes down. As that acceleration goes down, its manoeuvrability goes down.
Our modern Fighters would dance around space marine aircraft and plant missiles into their engines until they dropped from the sky like a rock.
Not the Imperial Guard. The Navy. The Navy uses dedicated fighter craft that is better equipped for the job. I don't think Krak missiles are all that much more powerful than our own missiles but that's opinion. A 1:1 comparison is difficult because we don't know how their magical space stuff compares to our own magical military stuff.
So, unless they have chaff launchers and hidden lock on devices (Which only the Hunter seems to have, lolz) then they're sitting ducks.
Space Marine aircraft, as presented by Gee Dubs, are poorly designed pieces of junk with the aerodynamics of a brick with giant rockets taped to it.
This. Space Marine aircraft could not fly. If they actually managed to get off the ground they would be less manoeuvrable that fighter planes from world war 2 like the Spitfire.
We don't have the technology to do it but they do.
They sure can fly, and they kill alot of stuff. I compare them as like tanks, when put side by side one of our jetfighters.
Yes, one of our jetfighters could get behind on of the marine's aircraft, but marines can do the same thing. Yes, the engines would be a wqeak point, but when it comes to our aircraft, the entire thing is weak.
And heavy lasers are perfect weapons against fast moving aircraft because of the lack of travel time of the "projectile". Much, easier to aim with, without the big need to "lead" your shots.
This will never be a straight up equal fight. Before the marines establish any landing zone, much of the earth's military industrial complex would be shattered from orbit.
One on one marine ship, tank, soldier would annihilate our own stuff.
Logistics are the main thing however. The marine chapter would have the upper hand at all times because every single part of it is designed to destroy all opposition, and that takes great logistics, and the marines have very very good logistics, at least compared to our own.
The technology gap is too big.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheCustomLime wrote: Not the Imperial Guard. The Navy. The Navy uses dedicated fighter craft that is better equipped for the job. I don't think Krak missiles are all that much more powerful than our own missiles but that's opinion. A 1:1 comparison is difficult because we don't know how their magical space stuff compares to our own magical military stuff.
So, unless they have chaff launchers and hidden lock on devices (Which only the Hunter seems to have, lolz) then they're sitting ducks.
Space Marine aircraft, as presented by Gee Dubs, are poorly designed pieces of junk with the aerodynamics of a brick with giant rockets taped to it.
I gotta check out Gee Dubs.
But I do believe that all of our technology is inferior to the marines. So IMO krak missiles are much better than our own, and thunderhawks, lightnings are quite capable at maneuvering and unleashing heavy firepower. The maneuvering and maximum speed of the marines bulky ships versus our own may be less, but they more than make up for it in armour and firepower.
That's just it, though. They only have Laser Cannons which aren't nearly as reliable as our missiles when it comes to hitting enemy aircraft. Plus they're easy to evade if you use old school dog fighting techniques.
The heavy lasers on the ships are just as reliable as krak missiles to function, and when they do function their power, accuracy and range is far superior to krak missiles.
I would say it is much more difficult to dodge almost-instantaneous thick laser fire than the slower missiles.
(Unless the pilot in question had psychic forethought... XD)
Our own weapons are not going to damage the marine's craft much at all, and the marines craft have enough speed to challenge our own on much more than an equal footing.
I think people are forgetting how fragile everything is (both marines and humans, although marines are the worst offenders).
Its not like the movies pro marine guys. Tanks dont just shrug off hits! A simple hit to some optics or the tracks can and usually do disable tanks. Rifles frequently took out tanks in the world wars by rendering them useless.
Aircraft are worse. A few bullets are all it takes for for an aircrafts to rip apart slowly or burst into flames.
Space Marines are so big and slow generally that they would suffer to weapons who excel at hitting fast and low silhouette targets. All it takes is one hit and that tank is stunned (from the huge force) or all the bits in the surrounding area are ruined/damaged. An aircraft would be very lucky to take a hit from a missile and not immediately fall from the sky, let along something as big and slow as space marine craft.
Nothing "just takes hits" like nothing ever. Every hit, every nick and every blast does vital damage to anything. Its how war is and always will be. Space Marines will not be immune to this.
Imagine a mortar lands in front of a Space Marine (imagine nothing else happens either). The fragmentation will bound off him in certain areas but a lot of it may hit joints, his weapons, visor and face grill breather things. His helmet will more than likely need to be removed (exposing it) and then we factor in the blast damage. We are talking broken ribs, ruptured organs, popped eyes, fractured/broken bones and the list goes on. And thats from one Mortar. Add in the other crap happening on the field and you have one sure fire dead marine.
The list goes on for many weapons. Nothing can and ever has, just taken hits with no damage or reprecussion. Even a machine gun against a naval ship can do damage (exposed crew, antenna etc etc).
Its how war works. It can be minimized, but even then. There is no such thing as auto safety in war.
Bottom Line: Space Marines, as written in fluff will only work if they fight incompetent, low tech monolithic enemies.
-STS
So a bit like Mericka
I'd almost give you that...but I suspect lack of political will, strategic blindness and public squeamishness have far more to do with our recent/current losses than some failure of skill or capability.
But, that said...yeah, there are some real winners in Mericka, I will grant you that.
DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote: The wings on the space marine low altitude or whatever you call it (the ones that can't go in space?) aircraft, they don't use their wings like our hollow aircraft do. They have much more powerful engines, thrusters to push themselves around.
They are built like flying tanks.
Also, the missiles compared to each other - space marine missile owns our fighter jets in one hit, our aircraft puts some dents in it after a few hits
Those numbers aren't final, but thats an easy way of putting it.
The technology doesn't stack, the weapons don't stack.
Don't forget the Strike Cruiser can simply one-shot all of our bases, airfields, and fuel depots. You can't actually use aircraft if the pilots are dead, the airfields are scrapped, and there's no fuel to even put in the craft.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Swastakowey wrote: I think people are forgetting how fragile everything is (both marines and humans, although marines are the worst offenders).
Its not like the movies pro marine guys. Tanks dont just shrug off hits! A simple hit to some optics or the tracks can and usually do disable tanks. Rifles frequently took out tanks in the world wars by rendering them useless.
Aircraft are worse. A few bullets are all it takes for for an aircrafts to rip apart slowly or burst into flames.
Space Marines are so big and slow generally that they would suffer to weapons who excel at hitting fast and low silhouette targets. All it takes is one hit and that tank is stunned (from the huge force) or all the bits in the surrounding area are ruined/damaged. An aircraft would be very lucky to take a hit from a missile and not immediately fall from the sky, let along something as big and slow as space marine craft.
Nothing "just takes hits" like nothing ever. Every hit, every nick and every blast does vital damage to anything. Its how war is and always will be. Space Marines will not be immune to this.
Imagine a mortar lands in front of a Space Marine (imagine nothing else happens either). The fragmentation will bound off him in certain areas but a lot of it may hit joints, his weapons, visor and face grill breather things. His helmet will more than likely need to be removed (exposing it) and then we factor in the blast damage. We are talking broken ribs, ruptured organs, popped eyes, fractured/broken bones and the list goes on. And thats from one Mortar. Add in the other crap happening on the field and you have one sure fire dead marine.
The list goes on for many weapons. Nothing can and ever has, just taken hits with no damage or reprecussion. Even a machine gun against a naval ship can do damage (exposed crew, antenna etc etc).
Its how war works. It can be minimized, but even then. There is no such thing as auto safety in war.
Are you blind? I already posted a feth ton of quotes pointing to how Astartes have millisecond reaction speeds, can dodge supersonic projectiles, and can run at around low highway speeds while being invisible to IR. Mortars won't do anything to Astartes armor period, they already walk through normal frag grenades while taking absolutely no damage, feth one even got hit by a direct artillery shell from a caliber so powerful it could probably only be found in World War I!
Just because you don't like the fluff doesn't invalidate it. It just makes you butthurt.
Swastakowey wrote: I think people are forgetting how fragile everything is (both marines and humans, although marines are the worst offenders).
Wait a second man it is supposed to be the other way around. The marines and the guard are fething monsters of war, compared to current day earth. ANd then your got the REAL monsters, like orkz, nids, crons. The eldar are pretty much on par with the imperium (more advanced tech and psychics, but less numbers and no totalitarian rule.
Its not like the movies pro marine guys. Tanks dont just shrug off hits! A simple hit to some optics or the tracks can and usually do disable tanks. Rifles frequently took out tanks in the world wars by rendering them useless.
Aircraft are worse. A few bullets are all it takes for for an aircrafts to rip apart slowly or burst into flames.
Space Marines are so big and slow generally that they would suffer to weapons who excel at hitting fast and low silhouette targets. All it takes is one hit and that tank is stunned (from the huge force) or all the bits in the surrounding area are ruined/damaged. An aircraft would be very lucky to take a hit from a missile and not immediately fall from the sky, let along something as big and slow as space marine craft.
Nothing "just takes hits" like nothing ever. Every hit, every nick and every blast does vital damage to anything. Its how war is and always will be. Space Marines will not be immune to this.
Imagine a mortar lands in front of a Space Marine (imagine nothing else happens either). The fragmentation will bound off him in certain areas but a lot of it may hit joints, his weapons, visor and face grill breather things. His helmet will more than likely need to be removed (exposing it) and then we factor in the blast damage. We are talking broken ribs, ruptured organs, popped eyes, fractured/broken bones and the list goes on. And thats from one Mortar. Add in the other crap happening on the field and you have one sure fire dead marine.
The list goes on for many weapons. Nothing can and ever has, just taken hits with no damage or reprecussion. Even a machine gun against a naval ship can do damage (exposed crew, antenna etc etc).
Its how war works. It can be minimized, but even then. There is no such thing as auto safety in war.
You are explaining how current day earth weapons affect current day earth targets, and current day armored targets.
I'm saying the marines and the guard have better armor, better firepower - the marines have great resilience to most if not all of our weapons. The ships the marines have would not wear and tear as easily as what you are used to. The parts are incredibly solid.
Another way of putting it is yes, a couple of jets could strike at a couple of marine ships, and take them down. But it would probably be suicide for the earth jets, because the fact that said jets got into that dogfight in the first place means to me that the marine's calculation of their war effort factored in this small loss. But the time such a loss could occur, the earth forces would have been decimated. So the loss was negligible.
Wyzilla, are you blind? there is fluff that says Marines cant take hits as well.
Dominant hunter: Read what I said properly. Things dont shrug off hits with no repercussions. Each time its hit, thats damage done. Regardless how much. More hits always = more damage.
So if you wont believe 1 mortar hit, then imagine 3 mortar hits and 15 Greande round hits. The damage all scales up.
To say anything else is pretty much saying:
"well magic!"
They are not immune to this. Marines will die very easily, its pretty simple to imagine. Just think about it with actual physics etc.
So for example. Crappy SM flyer (lm gonna humour you guys and pretend it can fly) gets hit by a missile. The force of that missile (assuming it does no damage) will force that craft in a different direction. That crafts angines are propelling it. Say the hit was on the bottom rear, it would force the craft to point down at the ground, and the engines will propel it forward (which is down by the way). Meaning a missile hit will force it to plummet (it would have to be very high to get out of that stall) and that = a dead flyer. Thats without taking into account the damage directly done by the hit.
If you are gonna tell me Space Marines ignore natural laws then please be honest and say they can do things because of space magic. Because thats all it is and there is no point arguing against lame space magic. There is only so much space magic a faction should have and thats one of the key reasons I hate Space marines. Its just too damn much.
I mean, can A space marine just ignore severed muscle in his arm joint if a piece of shrapnel got lodged in there? Of course not! Think about how muscle works! You cant shrug that kinda of common damage off, his arm will cease to work period. Let alone the severed artery's etc etc.
Are their tank tracks immune to jams and being broken? Do their optics self repair?
Do they defy physics and force?
There is no fun in just saying "because these conflicting books sometimes say so!"
So please, humour me. Tell me how a Space Marine can beat us and explain in detail how they are able to take hits. Because you will have no real explanation. Just, a conflicted an very unreliable source to pull quotes from that support your argument and ignore others.
Take super will not work battle fleets out of the equation. Unless you can explain how they work too.
Sorry dominant hunter. that wasnt directed at you, more Wyzila. Cheers man
Swastakowey wrote: Wyzilla, are you blind? there is fluff that says Marines cant take hits as well.
Dominant hunter: Read what I said properly. Things dont shrug off hits with no repercussions. Each time its hit, thats damage done. Regardless how much. More hits always = more damage.
So if you wont believe 1 mortar hit, then imagine 3 mortar hits and 15 Greande round hits. The damage all scales up.
To say anything else is pretty much saying:
"well magic!"
They are not immune to this. Marines will die very easily, its pretty simple to imagine. Just think about it with actual physics etc.
So for example. Crappy SM flyer (lm gonna humour you guys and pretend it can fly) gets hit by a missile. The force of that missile (assuming it does no damage) will force that craft in a different direction. That crafts angines are propelling it. Say the hit was on the bottom rear, it would force the craft to point down at the ground, and the engines will propel it forward (which is down by the way). Meaning a missile hit will force it to plummet (it would have to be very high to get out of that stall) and that = a dead flyer. Thats without taking into account the damage directly done by the hit.
If you are gonna tell me Space Marines ignore natural laws then please be honest and say they can do things because of space magic. Because thats all it is and there is no point arguing against lame space magic. There is only so much space magic a faction should have and thats one of the key reasons I hate Space marines. Its just too damn much.
I mean, can A space marine just ignore severed muscle in his arm joint if a piece of shrapnel got lodged in there? Of course not! Think about how muscle works! You cant shrug that kinda of common damage off, his arm will cease to work period. Let alone the severed artery's etc etc.
Are their tank tracks immune to jams and being broken? Do their optics self repair?
Do they defy physics and force?
There is no fun in just saying "because these conflicting books sometimes say so!"
So please, humour me. Tell me how a Space Marine can beat us and explain in detail how they are able to take hits. Because you will have no real explanation. Just, a conflicted an very unreliable source to pull quotes from that support your argument and ignore others.
Take super will not work battle fleets out of the equation. Unless you can explain how they work too.
Which exists as well, and I do not deny its existence. However the high end exists, and IIRC actually the majority of books portray them as incredibly powerful demigods of war. I'll have to look into it but I'm damn sure the average is them eating lasguns without fail.
But you really need to just give up and live with the fact that Space Marines are an army of lite X-Men who gak all over our modern military's capabilities, especially in space and the soldier department. The only part where Astartes are left lacking in M41 is heavy armor. It's a shame they no longer get Fellblades.
Your figures can be true. If a marine takes one mortar hit he would only be minimally damaged. A guardsman would get blown apart, as would a current day earth marine.
So if the marine took enough hits, yah, he would die.
But they are not gonna fight it your way. By the time you get mortars setup, if you ever do, the orbital bombardment and precision strikes would have destroyed so much of the infrastructure of your military industrial complex.....
Like I said... On The logistical and technological side of things the chapter of marines win hands down.
You defend the land side of things, but a chapter of 1000 space marines would show up in their fleet, lay waste to all opposition as to let the low altitude aircraft swoop in alongside side continuous orbital strikes.
I'm picturing it, just 1000 marines versus all of the pieces of the Earth's Military Industrial Complex?
The marines would be laying down orbital strikes at all times, the best supressive fire ever, allowing the whole of the ground forces and the low altitude air forces to get into where ever they'd need to go and be unmatched upon entry.
They wouldn't stay on the ground for long. No need to setup camp, no need to rest.
There would be no rest, it would jsut be one large attack, no down time, and most if not everything the earth forces have would be incinerated quickly from the skies, from the ships.
The ships that can't be touch because earth does not have any spacefleet, and their ICBM's would get shot down by lasers.
The earth could try nuking the whole planet that would be cool, catching enough marines on the ground. That would be fun.
You ever heard of Librarians or Techmarines? Our communications will be watched over by them while Librarians can both read our minds. Combat-wise, Space Marines are near invisible to IR, Corvus IS invisible, their basic guns will take down everything up to heavy armor, their special/heavy weapons will one-shot all of our armor and aircraft, and their infantry meanwhile runs around 45 miles per hour, dodges supersonic projectiles, and can tank a short from an MBT. Plus they have orbital superiority and can shoot power plants whenever wished or slag military bases with a single shot. Civilians would be screaming for surrender or just screaming in general, morale would be down, and leaders would be picked off and executed, probably publicly.
I suppose that you think that thoughts are in some universal language...they aren't, at least according to the latest research, since ideas and thoughts are limited by the language that a culture possesses...so, yeah, they can figure out that leadership is in big white building in important city midway on east coast of the long continent for this faction, and this other faction has their leadership in the funny domed building in the middle of the really wide continent and this other really populous group has their leadership in a big city kinda near the coast of the east coast of their fat chunk of land...repeat that a few hundred times to get the leadership of countries, now repeat for religions...and now try to figure out how much of the crap in people's heads is real and how much is just made up stories and lies they tell themselves.
Near invisible to IR...hmmm, how about UV, LIDAR, Seismic, Microwave, ALI, etc. Also, where does all that heat go...being invisible to IR means they are storing a LOT of heat. I will give you the firepower edge, I would say that a bolter pistol ~.50 caliber, bolter is ~14.5mm and a storm bolter is ~20mm-25mm in modern terms...which is plenty of firepower.
I don't think they are dodging supersonic projectiles...but they can play hard target and not run in straight lines, use cover and concealment to the maximum ability and be very, very fast sprinters juking and dodging through rubble and wooded areas to make it pretty difficult to hit them.
No, they are NOT tanking a shot from an MBT (I can grant up to 20mm HE rounds and near misses from artillery like 5 meters or so), unless you are just going to use "space magic armor with space magic inertia dampeners and reasons"
Orbital superiority, yes...which will make a lot of our tech toys not work so well, but people killed things in war long before we had satellites. They are not required.
I have no idea what "can shoot power plants whenever wished or slag military bases with a single shot" means, unless you are making a statement on the effectiveness of orbital fire support.
"Civilians would be screaming for surrender or just screaming in general, morale would be down, and leaders would be picked off and executed, probably publicly." I don't really see that, since without satellites, there is no 24 hour news cycle, no cable TV, no international news, etc...so basically it puts everyone back to 1950 technology using radio...which means that the only real psyops they can do is before they super smart genius space marines blow up the satellites...after that, they can really only do regional psyops (yes, there are ways around it, but I really don't want to write a white paper on psyops.)
Earth vs 10 Space Marines + several million troops + space domination + ~10 years = a planet that is usable by the IoM, in 20 years, it will be able to be dominated by the IoM, in 100 years, the planet is fully an IoM world with only small pockets of minor resistance.
Swastakowey wrote: Wyzilla, are you blind? there is fluff that says Marines cant take hits as well.
Dominant hunter: Read what I said properly. Things dont shrug off hits with no repercussions. Each time its hit, thats damage done. Regardless how much. More hits always = more damage.
So if you wont believe 1 mortar hit, then imagine 3 mortar hits and 15 Greande round hits. The damage all scales up.
To say anything else is pretty much saying:
"well magic!"
They are not immune to this. Marines will die very easily, its pretty simple to imagine. Just think about it with actual physics etc.
So for example. Crappy SM flyer (lm gonna humour you guys and pretend it can fly) gets hit by a missile. The force of that missile (assuming it does no damage) will force that craft in a different direction. That crafts angines are propelling it. Say the hit was on the bottom rear, it would force the craft to point down at the ground, and the engines will propel it forward (which is down by the way). Meaning a missile hit will force it to plummet (it would have to be very high to get out of that stall) and that = a dead flyer. Thats without taking into account the damage directly done by the hit.
If you are gonna tell me Space Marines ignore natural laws then please be honest and say they can do things because of space magic. Because thats all it is and there is no point arguing against lame space magic. There is only so much space magic a faction should have and thats one of the key reasons I hate Space marines. Its just too damn much.
I mean, can A space marine just ignore severed muscle in his arm joint if a piece of shrapnel got lodged in there? Of course not! Think about how muscle works! You cant shrug that kinda of common damage off, his arm will cease to work period. Let alone the severed artery's etc etc.
Are their tank tracks immune to jams and being broken? Do their optics self repair?
Do they defy physics and force?
There is no fun in just saying "because these conflicting books sometimes say so!"
So please, humour me. Tell me how a Space Marine can beat us and explain in detail how they are able to take hits. Because you will have no real explanation. Just, a conflicted an very unreliable source to pull quotes from that support your argument and ignore others.
Take super will not work battle fleets out of the equation. Unless you can explain how they work too.
Which exists as well, and I do not deny its existence. However the high end exists, and IIRC actually the majority of books portray them as incredibly powerful demigods of war. I'll have to look into it but I'm damn sure the average is them eating lasguns without fail.
But you really need to just give up and live with the fact that Space Marines are an army of lite X-Men who gak all over our modern military's capabilities, especially in space and the soldier department. The only part where Astartes are left lacking in M41 is heavy armor. It's a shame they no longer get Fellblades.
While I understand your stance. If you where to use this as real evidence in say a court etc, then I dont think it would fly. You cant use a source that both supports and counters your own evidence. So explain your position on them (in your own words) and relate it to the fluff (bearing in mind, the chances of your quote being countered by your very source is high) and then rationalize it.
Judging by your reply, I think we both know you will struggle. In natural terms, in the universe as is, following the laws of nature and logic etc etc a Space Marine cannot win without using space magic as the sole argument.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote: Your figures can be true. If a marine takes one mortar hit he would only be minimally damaged. A guardsman would get blown apart, as would a current day earth marine.
So if the marine took enough hits, yah, he would die.
But they are not gonna fight it your way. By the time you get mortars setup, if you ever do, the orbital bombardment and precision strikes would have destroyed so much of the infrastructure of your military industrial complex.....
Like I said... On The logistical and technological side of things the chapter of marines win hands down.
You defend the land side of things, but a chapter of 1000 space marines would show up in their fleet, lay waste to all opposition as to let the low altitude aircraft swoop in alongside side continuous orbital strikes.
I'm picturing it, just 1000 marines versus all of the pieces of the Earth's Military Industrial Complex?
The marines would be laying down orbital strikes at all times, the best supressive fire ever, allowing the whole of the ground forces and the low altitude air forces to get into where ever they'd need to go and be unmatched upon entry.
They wouldn't stay on the ground for long. No need to setup camp, no need to rest.
There would be no rest, it would jsut be one large attack, no down time, and most if not everything the earth forces have would be incinerated quickly from the skies, from the ships.
The ships that can't be touch because earth does not have any spacefleet, and their ICBM's would get shot down by lasers.
The earth could try nuking the whole planet that would be cool, catching enough marines on the ground. That would be fun.
Explain how that space fleet works without space magic and I will let you use it as a means to win. It can even use ish tech or plausibility.
Also the US army can have troops anywhere in the world in 24 hours or less. I dont think it will take long for earth to mobilize at all.
Remember millions of men fought in a single city in WW2 (stalingrad is an easy example.) How on earth are 1000 marines gonna take on the world if it takes more than millions upon millions of manpower etc to fight for a city? they simply cant without space magic. But even the space magic you have to support your argument conflicts! So how do you explain how marines take a planet in detail? Without space magic.
Wyzilla wrote: But you really need to just give up and live with the fact that Space Marines are an army of lite X-Men who gak all over our modern military's capabilities, especially in space and the soldier department. The only part where Astartes are left lacking in M41 is heavy armor. It's a shame they no longer get Fellblades.
And here it is. I just cannot in all good conscious accept this. Having personally seen much of our modern military's equipment and capabilities, I simply cannot agree with this assessment. Without providing actual fact based evidence (impossible) regarding the ability of Astartes equipment in comparison to modern day weaponry AND how it achieves such things I refuse to accept it as truth.
I realize what books say about marines and their capabilities, but that does nothing to actually support any claims that our modern weapons would be useless in a fight against them. You aren't giving enough credit to our modern day equipment and personnel because either A) you don't understand them as much as you think you do or B) you're choosing to ignore their potential through inferences in their capabilities compared to poorly thought out weapons and armor from the future.
Swastakowey wrote: Wyzilla, are you blind? there is fluff that says Marines cant take hits as well.
Dominant hunter: Read what I said properly. Things dont shrug off hits with no repercussions. Each time its hit, thats damage done. Regardless how much. More hits always = more damage.
So if you wont believe 1 mortar hit, then imagine 3 mortar hits and 15 Greande round hits. The damage all scales up.
To say anything else is pretty much saying:
"well magic!"
They are not immune to this. Marines will die very easily, its pretty simple to imagine. Just think about it with actual physics etc.
So for example. Crappy SM flyer (lm gonna humour you guys and pretend it can fly) gets hit by a missile. The force of that missile (assuming it does no damage) will force that craft in a different direction. That crafts angines are propelling it. Say the hit was on the bottom rear, it would force the craft to point down at the ground, and the engines will propel it forward (which is down by the way). Meaning a missile hit will force it to plummet (it would have to be very high to get out of that stall) and that = a dead flyer. Thats without taking into account the damage directly done by the hit.
If you are gonna tell me Space Marines ignore natural laws then please be honest and say they can do things because of space magic. Because thats all it is and there is no point arguing against lame space magic. There is only so much space magic a faction should have and thats one of the key reasons I hate Space marines. Its just too damn much.
I mean, can A space marine just ignore severed muscle in his arm joint if a piece of shrapnel got lodged in there? Of course not! Think about how muscle works! You cant shrug that kinda of common damage off, his arm will cease to work period. Let alone the severed artery's etc etc.
Are their tank tracks immune to jams and being broken? Do their optics self repair?
Do they defy physics and force?
There is no fun in just saying "because these conflicting books sometimes say so!"
So please, humour me. Tell me how a Space Marine can beat us and explain in detail how they are able to take hits. Because you will have no real explanation. Just, a conflicted an very unreliable source to pull quotes from that support your argument and ignore others.
Take super will not work battle fleets out of the equation. Unless you can explain how they work too.
Which exists as well, and I do not deny its existence. However the high end exists, and IIRC actually the majority of books portray them as incredibly powerful demigods of war. I'll have to look into it but I'm damn sure the average is them eating lasguns without fail.
But you really need to just give up and live with the fact that Space Marines are an army of lite X-Men who gak all over our modern military's capabilities, especially in space and the soldier department. The only part where Astartes are left lacking in M41 is heavy armor. It's a shame they no longer get Fellblades.
I think they're alright in that regard. Predators are decent MBTs and Land Raiders are tough as all get out. Plus there's the Spartan Assault Tank, Vindicators and whatever Forgeworld decides is rare for whatever reason. Not as good as the Guard but they've got the tools to deal with most armored threats.
I suppose that you think that thoughts are in some universal language...they aren't, at least according to the latest research, since ideas and thoughts are limited by the language that a culture possesses..
That is but a denser layer of consciousness more commonly used by us humans.
Life is universal. No matter how cut off, fragmented a state of being a sentient "thing" (like me and you, or orks) becomes, it always can if it tries to, to flow from the source, and not rely on external ideas. Spoken languages are the most primitive form of "communication".
This is how psykers operate - from many if not all of the layers that construct life, matter, mind, etc. Not just grey matter. They start from the "spot" where galaxies are created from, only on a isolated level, personal, channelled self. Hell, even some of our own human psychics are advanced enough to acess the more ethereal densities at will. Eventually, there comes a point where all is seen to be fully connected - and the information pours in. There is only one language, and that is life it self.
Your spoken tongue has and always will be a factor limiting human's perception of the greater forces at work. We as a species have been conditioned, indoctrinated by so many covert and overt things that no body stood a chance at personal growth, only the things forced upon them, the restricted environment lead to big isolation.
Therefore, many of mans ideas and thoughts are pre-formed by all of these external influences.
The psykers however, remember how life REALLY works, how you are your own god, and that matter is energy. Energy is you, you are energy. The air between your body and anothers is not to be confused as empty space, same with the space between planets. All is connected molecularily, atomically, energetically.
Psykers can use this energy.
Compared to your puny 3rd density slow purely mechanical thoughts and ideas, coming from jsut a small part of your entire essence - these psykers kick ass.
DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote: That is but a denser layer of consciousness more commonly used by us humans.
Life is universal. No matter how cut off, fragmented a state of being a sentient "thing" (like me and you, or orks) becomes, it always can if it tries to flow from the source, and not rely on external ideas. Spoken languages are the most primitive form of "communication".
This is how psykers operate. Hell, even some of our own human psychics are advanced enough to acess the more ethereal densities at will. Eventually, there comes a point where all is seen to be fully connected - and the information pours in. There is only one language, and that is life it self.
Your spoken tongue has and always will be a factor limiting human's perception of the greater forces at work.
...
You do realize that 40k is fiction and psykers don't exist, right?
Wyzilla wrote: But you really need to just give up and live with the fact that Space Marines are an army of lite X-Men who gak all over our modern military's capabilities, especially in space and the soldier department. The only part where Astartes are left lacking in M41 is heavy armor. It's a shame they no longer get Fellblades.
And here it is. I just cannot in all good conscious accept this. Having personally seen much of our modern military's equipment and capabilities, I simply cannot agree with this assessment. Without providing actual fact based evidence (impossible) regarding the ability of Astartes equipment in comparison to modern day weaponry AND how it achieves such things I refuse to accept it as truth.
I realize what books say about marines and their capabilities, but that does nothing to actually support any claims that our modern weapons would be useless in a fight against them. You aren't giving enough credit to our modern day equipment and personnel because either A) you don't understand them as much as you think you do or B) you're choosing to ignore their potential through inferences in their capabilities compared to poorly thought out weapons and armor from the future.
Peregrine wrote: You do realize that 40k is fiction and psykers don't exist, right?
Well thats too bad
* * *
Sorry, I kept editing my post, should post it again on this fresh page. Its some deep gak man, summarizes psykers (and human psychics, if you can call them that):
I suppose that you think that thoughts are in some universal language...they aren't, at least according to the latest research, since ideas and thoughts are limited by the language that a culture possesses..
That is but a denser layer of consciousness more commonly used by us humans.
Life is universal. No matter how cut off, fragmented a state of being a sentient "thing" (like me and you, or orks) becomes, it always can if it tries to, to flow from the source, and not rely on external ideas. Spoken languages are the most primitive form of "communication".
This is how psykers operate - from many if not all of the layers that construct life, matter, mind, etc. Not just grey matter. They start from the "spot" where galaxies are created from, only on a isolated level, personal, channelled self. Hell, even some of our own human psychics are advanced enough to acess the more ethereal densities at will. Eventually, there comes a point where all is seen to be fully connected - and the information pours in. There is only one language, and that is life it self.
Your spoken tongue has and always will be a factor limiting human's perception of the greater forces at work. We as a species have been conditioned, indoctrinated by so many covert and overt things that no body stood a chance at personal growth, only the things forced upon them, the restricted environment lead to big isolation. Cut off from birth, and with our senses dulled, we as a species are drilled for a thick "educational" system, where our "information" incomplete and controlled.
Therefore, many of mans ideas and thoughts are pre-formed by all of these external influences.
The psykers however, remember how life REALLY works, how you are your own god, and that matter is energy. Energy is you, you are energy. The air between your body and anothers is not to be confused as empty space, same with the space between planets. All is connected molecularly, atomically, energetically.
Psykers can use this energy.
Compared to your puny 3rd density slow, purely mechanical (to fit the intoctrinated mechanism - ie. purely fit for your semi forced perception of life) thoughts and ideas, coming from just a small part of your entire essence -
Furyou Miko wrote: I find it extremely arrogant to believe that a 5.56 NATO round will do more than glance off power armour, heh.
Something you need to realise about 40k is that armour technology is insane. Ork Hide grants a 6+ save and has been stated in white dwarf (although it was a while ago) to be as tough as 20th century ballistic armour.
That means that a standard modern handgun firing lead-cored copper-jacketed bullets is going to bounce off what the 40k universe considers the lightest possible armour worth mentioning.
Um, so...what type of ballistic armor would that be? Class I, IIA, II, IIIA, III or class IV? There is a huge variance in ballistic protection between them...and thus a large variance in what that statement in White Dwarf can mean... Of course, if we apply max feat spank, it will be equivalent to class IV hard armor stopping 7.62mmx54R AP rounds, but the problem is that then, none of the other calcs make sense for what autopistols, autoguns, shotguns, grenades, etc are capable of.
I can grant the following stopping power equivalencies:
6+ can stop mid tier pistol calibers such as 9mm, .45 ACP, .357 mag, etc.
5+ can stop mid tier assault rifle calibers such as 5.56mm, 7.62x39, 5.45mm, etc., grenade fragments
4+ can stop high end rifle rounds such as 7.62x54R API rounds, .300 WinMag, all the way up to .400 H&H, .577 Tyrannosaur and other big rounds
3+ can stop heavy machine gun rounds such as .50 caliber, maybe 14.5mm and artillery fragments
2+ can stop HE auto-cannon rounds, I'd say up to 25mm HE rounds, but not things like DU sabot rounds...for that level of protection, you would need to get Armor
-STS
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furyou Miko wrote: the fact that the American super-elite SEAL unit are considered to be cute by most other special forces.
I find this kinda funny, but not in some ironic/angry way...but, yeah...I will grant that this has happened more than once.
DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote: Its some deep gak man, summarizes psykers (and human psychics, if you can call them that):
You do realize that there is no such thing as real psychics, right? Because your post really seems to be blurring the line between fantasy and reality, and is making me think that you need to step away from the game for a while until you understand that it isn't real.
Lord Tarkin wrote: 10 SM's can quell a city rebellion, 1,000 can conquer a planet and a legion can stomp a star system to dust.
Now lets put numbers on these.
10 marines - 300,000 average city population
Projected time to objective completion: 1 to 5 years.
1,000 marines (SM chapter) - 8,000,000,000 average futuristic planet population
Projected time to objective completion: 10 to 25 years
100,000 marines, average legion size - many billions of star system inhabitants
Projected time to objective completion: 100 to 1,000 years
Keep in mind that the average SM holds the same amount of knowledge Albert Einstein had....which is amazing. Sergeants, captains, chapter masters and all other high ranking SM staff are even smarter. A primarch = Albert Einstien + Sir Isaac Newton multiplied by 30. That's one smart son of gun. I'm sure each primarch found a diplomatic and militaristic way of gaining planetary rule and respect. Keep in mind most primarchs respected humanity and as such did not resort to the arrows but instead the olive branch. Konrad Curze and Angron are 2 prime examples of primarchs that had failed to rule the planet they inhabited. Angron was enslaved by powerful and sadistic humans while Konrad Curze spent all his time hunting down and killing criminals. As admirable as Curze was it was not enough to befriend skeptics.
As for SM's.
A city rebels and imagine you are the leader of this rebellion. You are fairly smart, your tactful, you know military logic and you are willing to die for your beliefs, meaning you are a tad arrogant and you won't back down to the Imperium and with-hold your rebellion.
Suddenly you have 10 super human power armour clad titans with their weakest weapons being as powerful as your best weapons and intelligence matching that of one of the most smartest humans to ever live on planet Earth and they have the planetary PDF at their disposal. Their first objective is gonna be having you killed, and they will find a decisive way of doing it...believe that. With the leader of the rebellion killed, those 10 SM's are gonna have their way with the rest of those foolish enough to stand by your side and half the rebellion will be killled before the rest realize their error and surrender.
To take over a planet.
A SM chapter will first nuke every continent on the face of the planet for an extended 7 days. Having dazed and confused the planetary forces, the fleet will drop 2 companies of SM's and a couple IG regiments to sieze all planetary Spaceports while along the way eliminating any AA guns along the way. Enemy forces will have no mobility at all to fight a decisive battle. SM's and IG reinforcements will then drop full force to the planet. Average SM chapter tactics will be to eliminate enemy command structure. This will be a lengthy conflict but it will be done and then an even longer time cleansing the planet but that can be counted upon on the IG.
Cleansing a star system will be a repeated and drawn out version of what I just explained.
Of course, this is theory and considered canon, not to mention this is average SM tactics and not always done the way I explained. However, this is the most popular and efficient way of going about a war. I made sure to include IG and PDF forces because SM's will always need aid in the wars they wage. IG are litterally the backbone of the Imperium and don't dispute that. millions of these sould die every single day to ensure the survival and operation of the Imperium. SM's are there to add brute strength and superior thinking and resolve.
^^^^^^I really think this guy's post should be emphasized.
DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote: Its some deep gak man, summarizes psykers (and human psychics, if you can call them that):
You do realize that there is no such thing as real psychics, right? Because your post really seems to be blurring the line between fantasy and reality, and is making me think that you need to step away from the game for a while until you understand that it isn't real.
Take it with a grain of salt then. And don't think too hard.
But there are enough reports in real life to make a case about how there are real life psychics. I'm definitely not going to bother with that though.
I'm not saying there are people that can shoot lightning bolts out of their donkey-caves. Lets say on current day earth we got the beginnings of 40k psykers.
Let's just stick to this.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Peregrine wrote: the tabletop game is meant to be a reasonably accurate representation of how things work. So, while we know power armor is probably better than a 3+ it's probably not many orders of magnitude better like it would have to be for a single squad of marines to conquer a whole planet.
I would say that to picture a marine chapter taking over earth, you go inbetween the "bolter" porn absolute glorification of the warrior monks and rehabilitated psycho murder criminals (how the marines are presented today, and how they were before - I combine both) that are the adeptus astartes - between the god like fluff tales, and the best strategists using the table top marine armies -
I think this is how a marine chapter would strike. Pretty fething impressive, and the dice is in their hands. Earth would die.
Perhaps one thing one should factor is what chapter are we talking about or, more accurately, their fighting style. Alpha Legion and Night Lords can take down entire worlds with a tiny amount of soldiers.
KorPhaeron77 wrote: GW writers have no sense of scale in any regard. A couple of million guard would still be useless against us if modern earth was invaded. North Korea (far from a world power) has 5 million soldiers. Russa, China, America alone could fight off the Imperial guard or Space Marines.
Also if you look at mass invasions from sea, like D-day, show that even a superior force will take huge casualties while trying to land. Coming down from space would exasperate this even further. Let's say one drop ship with 10,000 Guard is dropping into the atmosphere. We just hammer it with missiles and that's a whole army dead. If they set up a mass drop site in say a desert or tundra type area, we would just nuke it and wipe out their whole army.
As for Space Marines, in the real world, they wouldn't stand a chance. We could just flood the skies with Choppers and rain death down on them, thousands of tanks, missiles, snipers...even an armoured super hero would go down under sheer weight of fire.
There are 8 Billion people on this planet, even a million space marines would struggle to do what it is claimed in the fluff.
Solid debate right there actually. You're right, 2 million IG stands zero chance. I'd say...6 billion IG, added with maybe 2 chapters of SM's. Yeah, that's a fight.
But then again, I always thought, SM legions were much more able to conquer planets and for obvious reasons. A legion is ten times the size of a SM chapter.
Idk. It's such an ambiguous scenario. We can compare the 41st millennium to nowadays but we really have no clue what life is like in the future and we cant possibly predict anything. Its all just theory.
The bomings my man. The orbital firepower, untouchable firing positions (from space!!!!)
There would be no contest between current day earth forces and a single chapter of marines without any other imperial backup. No need to waste prescious troops and tanks or low flying aircraft, just bomb the bastards to rubble. Then set foot and plant the flag. when theres no earth soldier left to stand, only puny civillians. The earth's resources can now be mined at leisure. Plenty of gold still left! Try to whip the population into service, or kill them all. We got servitors anyways.
DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote: But there are enough reports in real life to make a case about how there are real life psychics. I'm definitely not going to bother with that though.
No, there really isn't anything to make a case out of, unless you're gullible and have no understanding of how science works. And I know you're going to drop this, because if you don't you're going to get humiliated.
I'm not saying there are people that can shoot lightning bolts out of their donkey-caves. Lets say on current day earth we got the beginnings of 40k psykers.
Ok, you really do need to step away from the game until you can separate fantasy and reality.
Earth would die.
Well yes, I don't think anyone can reasonably dispute that a 40k space fleet sitting in orbit could just nuke us until there is nothing left alive, but "my giant battleship will crush you" is pretty far from the original claim that a squad or two of space marines could do it.
Instead of imagining how space marines would be IRL, how about translating modern armed forced into the game?
A human soldier would probably be roughly equivalent to a chaos cultist stat line with an auto gun representing a modern assault rifle.
Bunker-busting missiles, intercontinental missiles, C4 explosives, tank-armour penetrating rifles, armour-piercing snipers, nukes, etc. are all things that could be represented in-game by approximating their effectiveness against cultist-equivalents.
The 21st century Terra codex would probably look similar to AM, with slightly weaker infantry, virtually zero cc ability, light tanks with good weapons and much, much longer range artillery.
KorPhaeron77 wrote: GW writers have no sense of scale in any regard. A couple of million guard would still be useless against us if modern earth was invaded. North Korea (far from a world power) has 5 million soldiers. Russa, China, America alone could fight off the Imperial guard or Space Marines.
Also if you look at mass invasions from sea, like D-day, show that even a superior force will take huge casualties while trying to land. Coming down from space would exasperate this even further. Let's say one drop ship with 10,000 Guard is dropping into the atmosphere. We just hammer it with missiles and that's a whole army dead. If they set up a mass drop site in say a desert or tundra type area, we would just nuke it and wipe out their whole army.
As for Space Marines, in the real world, they wouldn't stand a chance. We could just flood the skies with Choppers and rain death down on them, thousands of tanks, missiles, snipers...even an armoured super hero would go down under sheer weight of fire.
There are 8 Billion people on this planet, even a million space marines would struggle to do what it is claimed in the fluff.
Solid debate right there actually. You're right, 2 million IG stands zero chance. I'd say...6 billion IG, added with maybe 2 chapters of SM's. Yeah, that's a fight.
But then again, I always thought, SM legions were much more able to conquer planets and for obvious reasons. A legion is ten times the size of a SM chapter.
Idk. It's such an ambiguous scenario. We can compare the 41st millennium to nowadays but we really have no clue what life is like in the future and we cant possibly predict anything. Its all just theory.
The bomings my man. The orbital firepower, untouchable firing positions (from space!!!!)
There would be no contest between current day earth forces and a single chapter of marines without any other imperial backup. No need to waste prescious troops and tanks or low flying aircraft, just bomb the bastards to rubble. Then set foot and plant the flag.
It has not, and does not work that way. Ordinance alone never wins a serious engagement. If anything, destroying the cities is creating more motivation for us to fight (you ruined my home!) and creates the ideal battlefield for guirilla warfare. Ordinance can not, and will not win a war due its huge amounts of limitations.
The fact you said that really shows a lack of understanding on how a lot of war goes down. Bombing things to rubble hurts, but it doesnt do much more than keep up the spirit of the enemy you are fighting and deepen their resolve to kill you. So its probably better for us to have our cities destroyed. Because most of us will survive, and most of us will be pissed off.
Think about it. Your town/city gets flattened. Your sister died and your kid lost his arm. You gather with the crowds rallying together and the government is issuing out arms/conscripting/gathering volunteers. You wanna get the bastards back bad because they destroyed your house. Harmed your friends and family and as a result you are now determined to secure the freedom and safety of your loved ones. Even giving up your life in the hope they can have a better one. Many wars are lost because one side thinks its a good idea to target civilians and give them reasons to fight against them.
Despite the power you may think nuking/bombing etc may have. Its never as devastating as you think it is. The battle of somme is a good example, or even the vietnam war.
Seriously sit back and think about how it all works. You will begin to see how terribly thought out Space Marines are and how not able to win a battle against modern earth due to the lack of thought put behind the concept of Space Marines.
DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote: You nor any one else can humiliate me on this confined "subject" in subtle questioning because I don't care for you're causes.
You also don't seem to care for facts. But feel free to run away and make excuses instead of defending your claims. Just try to think about what this means for your ridiculous beliefs, and why you hold them when you're completely unable to defend them.
These aren't nukes. These are planet cracker laser beams.
They can adjust the power of them to make it so that they don't burrow too deep and start fracturing the planet, but deep enough to cut into all of your bunkers.
And its not cities being destroyed. Its bases. Naval yards. Airbases. Supply centers. Power plants. bunkers. Command centers.
The spirits of these humans are pitiful in comparison to the marine chapter.
This is not a war, this is a genocide. These heretics are going to die, mainly because they lack the technological edge, ie, no space ships, nor super super soldiers, to put it simply.
I would cost him at about 3 ppm. The reason I gave him a low leadership save is because we Earth humans are not as indoctrinated or hardened as your average Imperial human. We're more likely to buckle under fire from the horrors of the 41st Millennium.
M1A1 Abrams
AV: 12/12/11
Wargear:
Abrams Cannon
Coaxial Heavy Stubber
Hull Mounted Heavy Stubber
Abrams Cannon:
S: 6 AP: 4 Range: Unlimited Heavy 1 Small Blast.
These aren't nukes. These are planet cracker laser beams.
They can adjust the power of them to make it so that they don't burrow too deep and start fracturing the planet, but deep enough to cut into all of your bunkers.
And its not cities being destroyed. Its bases. Naval yards. Airbases. Supply centers. Power plants. bunkers. Command centers.
The spirits of these humans are pitiful in comparison to the marine chapter.
This is not a war, this is a genocide. These heretics are going to die, mainly because they lack the technological edge, ie, no space ships, nor super super soldiers, to put it simply.
DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote: You nor any one else can humiliate me on this confined "subject" in subtle questioning because I don't care for you're causes.
You also don't seem to care for facts. But feel free to run away and make excuses instead of defending your claims. Just try to think about what this means for your ridiculous beliefs, and why you hold them when you're completely unable to defend them.
I'm not running anywhere. Your facts are fine, they work, but I'm not in love with them thats for sure. Too abstract, too limiting. Your sources of information is cold, boring, and useless to me.
Are you trying to be a scientist or something? It's an ok job, but you only get paid to research into certain things, and what you do in your own time usually coincides with what you do in your paid time. Not much "progress" gets made to be honest.
Now, everything is made of energy. That is "science".
I would cost him at about 3 ppm. The reason I gave him a low leadership save is because we Earth humans are not as indoctrinated or hardened as your average Imperial human. We're more likely to buckle under fire from the horrors of the 41st Millennium.
M1A1 Abrams
AV: 12/12/11
Wargear:
Abrams Cannon
Coaxial Heavy Stubber
Hull Mounted Heavy Stubber
Abrams Cannon:
S: 6 AP: 4 Range: Unlimited Heavy 1 Small Blast.
Does all of that sound fair?
The game itself is so simplified and unrealistic that its kinda more pointless to put it in game than the argument itself.
It negates too much of real life warfare to be a good representation of any army.
Meh. All kinds of space magic to be had. You got star wars, star trek, battlestar galactica, etc.
Its technology. Technically its doable, but we suck at it right now. We don't have that kind of access.
We.. suck at technology? Whatchu talking about. Our technology is amazing and it's only getting better by the day. The Imperium, in contrast, is decaying constantly technologically and is only as advanced as it is because of 20,000 or so years of devolopment. They're suckling the teat of DAoT humanity. Why do you think STCs are so important to the AdMech? It's the only way they can obtain new tech. That's right. The Imperium is barely inventing anything. They're just uncovering lost stuff.
Look at their backwards designs. Leman Russ tank, the Land Raider, those waste o' resources titans and the chunky SM fliers. The Imperium very much sucks at technology and they're getting worse by the day. It's their downfall. No matter how powerful Space Marines are it'll get to a point where not even they can hold the Imperium together because the Imperium sucks at technology.
You ever heard of Librarians or Techmarines? Our communications will be watched over by them while Librarians can both read our minds. Combat-wise, Space Marines are near invisible to IR, Corvus IS invisible, their basic guns will take down everything up to heavy armor, their special/heavy weapons will one-shot all of our armor and aircraft, and their infantry meanwhile runs around 45 miles per hour, dodges supersonic projectiles, and can tank a short from an MBT. Plus they have orbital superiority and can shoot power plants whenever wished or slag military bases with a single shot. Civilians would be screaming for surrender or just screaming in general, morale would be down, and leaders would be picked off and executed, probably publicly.
I suppose that you think that thoughts are in some universal language...they aren't, at least according to the latest research, since ideas and thoughts are limited by the language that a culture possesses...so, yeah, they can figure out that leadership is in big white building in important city midway on east coast of the long continent for this faction, and this other faction has their leadership in the funny domed building in the middle of the really wide continent and this other really populous group has their leadership in a big city kinda near the coast of the east coast of their fat chunk of land...repeat that a few hundred times to get the leadership of countries, now repeat for religions...and now try to figure out how much of the crap in people's heads is real and how much is just made up stories and lies they tell themselves.
Near invisible to IR...hmmm, how about UV, LIDAR, Seismic, Microwave, ALI, etc. Also, where does all that heat go...being invisible to IR means they are storing a LOT of heat. I will give you the firepower edge, I would say that a bolter pistol ~.50 caliber, bolter is ~14.5mm and a storm bolter is ~20mm-25mm in modern terms...which is plenty of firepower.
I don't think they are dodging supersonic projectiles...but they can play hard target and not run in straight lines, use cover and concealment to the maximum ability and be very, very fast sprinters juking and dodging through rubble and wooded areas to make it pretty difficult to hit them.
No, they are NOT tanking a shot from an MBT (I can grant up to 20mm HE rounds and near misses from artillery like 5 meters or so), unless you are just going to use "space magic armor with space magic inertia dampeners and reasons"
Orbital superiority, yes...which will make a lot of our tech toys not work so well, but people killed things in war long before we had satellites. They are not required.
I have no idea what "can shoot power plants whenever wished or slag military bases with a single shot" means, unless you are making a statement on the effectiveness of orbital fire support.
"Civilians would be screaming for surrender or just screaming in general, morale would be down, and leaders would be picked off and executed, probably publicly." I don't really see that, since without satellites, there is no 24 hour news cycle, no cable TV, no international news, etc...so basically it puts everyone back to 1950 technology using radio...which means that the only real psyops they can do is before they super smart genius space marines blow up the satellites...after that, they can really only do regional psyops (yes, there are ways around it, but I really don't want to write a white paper on psyops.)
Earth vs 10 Space Marines + several million troops + space domination + ~10 years = a planet that is usable by the IoM, in 20 years, it will be able to be dominated by the IoM, in 100 years, the planet is fully an IoM world with only small pockets of minor resistance.
-STS
Power armor is made of magic, which is pretty clear given that part of it is made of admantanium, which we know is a naturally occurring element/ore like Iron, which breaks science so hard it's silly given that it'd have to be a stable atom with an atomic number over 119.. which really just doesn't work at all. W40K for a very long while, since probably around the third/fourth edition, has been a Eurofantasy set in space, not sci fi, and certainly not hard sci fi. Ceramite as well might be an alloy we may very well never achieve, or is indeed impossible to create in a real universe.
Really though, you'd think the Chaos Gods would tip people off that W40K runs off bulls***ium. The only thing about W40K you could actually call semi-realistic is void-warfare.... which is surprisingly something that W40K does very well in a fairly realistic manner. It's a shame BFG got killed.
Ok, well im not gonna bother then. Pointless arguing against arguments like that.
But, this is the story. The 1000 marines with their invasion fleet, or whatever you wanna call it, destroys the gak out of the puny earth ground forces with their unopposed starship attacks.
The ground forces get there and whats left of earth's resistance is easily dispatched.
That is how a chapter invades a world all by itself. These marines are incalculably good at surviving and killing all opposition, using all of their resources to their best advantage, and with a planet like earth wits a cakewalk. No need for any back, just the single chapter. Bada boom bada bing.
Swastakowey wrote: It has not, and does not work that way. Ordinance alone never wins a serious engagement. If anything, destroying the cities is creating more motivation for us to fight (you ruined my home!) and creates the ideal battlefield for guirilla warfare. Ordinance can not, and will not win a war due its huge amounts of limitations.
Too be fair, this is only true because in the real world we have moral limits on the use of mass destruction and aren't willing to genocide millions of people to win a war. This isn't true in 40k, where most factions will gladly nuke a target until everyone is dead and consider the civilian casualties a nice side bonus that saves the effort of rounding them up and exterminating them later. You can't have guerrilla warfare when you're fighting an opponent that will turn an entire country into a lake of molten rock every time you kill a single soldier.
Think about it. Your town/city gets flattened. Your sister died and your kid lost his arm. You gather with the crowds rallying together and the government is issuing out arms/conscripting/gathering volunteers. You wanna get the bastards back bad because they destroyed your house. Harmed your friends and family and as a result you are now determined to secure the freedom and safety of your loved ones. Even giving up your life in the hope they can have a better one.
Except that's not really the proper comparison. Here's a better one.
Your entire town/city gets is now a sea of molten rock after being nuked from orbit, as part of an orbital bombardment that killed a hundred million of your fellow citizens in the first 24 hours. Everyone within 50 miles of the city is dead, including your entire family (but hey, at least their deaths were probably painless), but you were driving home from a business trip and were lucky enough to be in the middle of nowhere. You've heard a few rumors of people trying to organize to fight back, but getting nuked from orbit as soon as more than ten people gathered in one place. And you're really not sure how you could fight back, since the entire invading force is still in orbit and everything even vaguely resembling a military base is a glowing crater. You grab your rifle and wait for the right moment to strike, but you never get a chance. When the invading troops finally do arrive there is no opportunity to hide among the civilian population and prepare an ambush, as the last thing you see is the extermination squads mercilessly executing every human they see. Because your rifle is hidden out of sight when the extermination squads arrive you never even get to fire a shot before you are blown in half by a bolter round.
Despite the power you may think nuking/bombing etc may have. Its never as devastating as you think it is. The battle of somme is a good example, or even the vietnam war.
No, those really aren't good examples because they still involve real-world reluctance to slaughter civilians. Vietnam fought by 40k standards wouldn't have involved occasional civilian casualties from careless bombing, it would have been a campaign of extermination where anyone who isn't part of the US military is shot on sight and whole cities are bombed off the map to make room for US settlers to build on.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote: I'm not running anywhere. Your facts are fine, they work, but I'm not in love with them thats for sure. Too abstract, too limiting. Your sources of information is cold, boring, and useless to me.
IOW, "your facts get in the way of enjoying my magical fantasy world where I'm a wizard and cast magic spells and stuff". Again, please try to learn the difference between fantasy and reality.
We.. suck at technology? Whatchu talking about. Our technology is amazing and it's only getting better by the day. The Imperium, in contrast, is decaying constantly technologically and is only as advanced as it is because of 20,000 or so years of devolopment. They're suckling the teat of DAoT humanity. Why do you think STCs are so important to the AdMech? It's the only way they can obtain new tech. That's right. The Imperium is barely inventing anything. They're just uncovering lost stuff.
Look at their backwards designs. Leman Russ tank, the Land Raider, those waste o' resources titans and the chunky SM fliers. The Imperium very much sucks at technology and they're getting worse by the day. It's their downfall. No matter how powerful Space Marines are it'll get to a point where not even they can hold the Imperium together because the Imperium sucks at technology.
We do not have the technological advancements of adeptus astartes. Not by a long shot. Our tech sucks compared to everything 40K has.
Of course it does because it was written that way. Same for Mass Effect, Star Wars, whatever this Culture series Peregrine likes to mention and insert favorite sci-fi franchise here. They were written to be better than us. WH40k just happens to be written very poorly in that regard.
Swastakowey wrote: It has not, and does not work that way. Ordinance alone never wins a serious engagement. If anything, destroying the cities is creating more motivation for us to fight (you ruined my home!) and creates the ideal battlefield for guirilla warfare. Ordinance can not, and will not win a war due its huge amounts of limitations.
Too be fair, this is only true because in the real world we have moral limits on the use of mass destruction and aren't willing to genocide millions of people to win a war. This isn't true in 40k, where most factions will gladly nuke a target until everyone is dead and consider the civilian casualties a nice side bonus that saves the effort of rounding them up and exterminating them later. You can't have guerrilla warfare when you're fighting an opponent that will turn an entire country into a lake of molten rock every time you kill a single soldier.
Think about it. Your town/city gets flattened. Your sister died and your kid lost his arm. You gather with the crowds rallying together and the government is issuing out arms/conscripting/gathering volunteers. You wanna get the bastards back bad because they destroyed your house. Harmed your friends and family and as a result you are now determined to secure the freedom and safety of your loved ones. Even giving up your life in the hope they can have a better one.
Except that's not really the proper comparison. Here's a better one.
Your entire town/city gets is now a sea of molten rock after being nuked from orbit, as part of an orbital bombardment that killed a hundred million of your fellow citizens in the first 24 hours. Everyone within 50 miles of the city is dead, including your entire family (but hey, at least their deaths were probably painless), but you were driving home from a business trip and were lucky enough to be in the middle of nowhere. You've heard a few rumors of people trying to organize to fight back, but getting nuked from orbit as soon as more than ten people gathered in one place. And you're really not sure how you could fight back, since the entire invading force is still in orbit and everything even vaguely resembling a military base is a glowing crater. You grab your rifle and wait for the right moment to strike, but you never get a chance. When the invading troops finally do arrive there is no opportunity to hide among the civilian population and prepare an ambush, as the last thing you see is the extermination squads mercilessly executing every human they see. Because your rifle is hidden out of sight when the extermination squads arrive you never even get to fire a shot before you are blown in half by a bolter round.
Despite the power you may think nuking/bombing etc may have. Its never as devastating as you think it is. The battle of somme is a good example, or even the vietnam war.
No, those really aren't good examples because they still involve real-world reluctance to slaughter civilians. Vietnam fought by 40k standards wouldn't have involved occasional civilian casualties from careless bombing, it would have been a campaign of extermination where anyone who isn't part of the US military is shot on sight and whole cities are bombed off the map to make room for US settlers to build on.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote: I'm not running anywhere. Your facts are fine, they work, but I'm not in love with them thats for sure. Too abstract, too limiting. Your sources of information is cold, boring, and useless to me.
IOW, "your facts get in the way of enjoying my magical fantasy world where I'm a wizard and cast magic spells and stuff". Again, please try to learn the difference between fantasy and reality.
Fair enough, but even then, whats the point in invading the planet and sending space marines if you are gonna kill all life on the planet and ruin the atmosphere etc. So the only reason they would be doing it would be in a last ditch attempt at denying us having the planet. Unless they can space magic the planet back to normal again.
Either way, I feel like the Pro SPace Marines are constantly moving the goals posts in their favour, constantly bringing out the best bits of fluff that suit them and making up wonder counters. This is why there is a huge stigma on space marine fanhumans.
DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote: I'm not running anywhere. Your facts are fine, they work, but I'm not in love with them thats for sure. Too abstract, too limiting. Your sources of information is cold, boring, and useless to me.
IOW, "your facts get in the way of enjoying my magical fantasy world where I'm a wizard and cast magic spells and stuff". Again, please try to learn the difference between fantasy and reality.
Hey your the one getting ancy, not me. And I never said anything about wizards, nor magic spells, nor fantasy.
Matter is energy. Our science proves this. I/your/our fact of this, this fact has not gotten in my way at all. Your presuming. And thats fine.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheCustomLime wrote: Of course it does because it was written that way. Same for Mass Effect, Star Wars, whatever this Culture series Peregrine likes to mention and insert favorite sci-fi franchise here. They were written to be better than us. WH40k just happens to be written very poorly in that regard.
Well, there you go. a chapter therefore, having technology that is better than ours, by alot, can easily take over a planet like our current day earth.
The same chapters tech would get pushed to the limits with one of the big races in the 40k galaxy though. In fact some might say the imperium of mans tech is old and failing.
DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote: And I never said anything about wizards, nor magic spells, nor fantasy.
No, you just called them "psychics", but it's the same thing.
Matter is energy. Our science proves this.
And your point is? You claimed that psychic powers exist in real life, not that matter is energy. Please try to at least keep track of what ridiculous claims you're making.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Swastakowey wrote: Fair enough, but even then, whats the point in invading the planet and sending space marines if you are gonna kill all life on the planet and ruin the atmosphere etc.
Because the level of damage that would destroy human civilization and reduce us to scattered bands of refugees that can be easily slaughtered by the extermination squads is considerably less than the amount of damage required to make the planet uninhabitable, especially given the Imperium's rather generous standards for "habitable" planets.
Swastakowey wrote: [
Fair enough, but even then, whats the point in invading the planet and sending space marines if you are gonna kill all life on the planet and ruin the atmosphere etc. So the only reason they would be doing it would be in a last ditch attempt at denying us having the planet. Unless they can space magic the planet back to normal again.
Either way, I feel like the Pro SPace Marines are constantly moving the goals posts in their favour, constantly bringing out the best bits of fluff that suit them and making up wonder counters. This is why there is a huge stigma on space marine fanhumans.
I have had enough.
Not all life would get exterminated, just yours. Any one who resists. The minerals can still be mined, maybe. Jsut another cleared battlefield in the endless ocean of their killings.
Unless they decided to like, you know, virus bomb the planet. But no, they can just eradicate all of the military industrial complexes, and I mean ALL OF THEM. The vast majority of the planet would be intact, and suitablel for conversion, settlement for the normal humans of the imperium. Maybe set it up as a new space marine training ground or something.
No, you just called them "psychics", but it's the same thing.
Matter is energy. Our science proves this.
And your point is? You claimed that psychic powers exist in real life, not that matter is energy. Please try to at least keep track of what ridiculous claims you're making.
I made no such claim. I said human psychics. You know? The biggest douche in the universe (South Park episode making fun of "psychics")? Theres plenty of psychic practices that exist, plenty of idiots that claim they can see into the future and gak.
And it's widely disputed.
Anyways, do you agree that matter, ALL MATTER (which is life itself) is energy? EVERYTHING IS MADE OF ENERGY? Do you like this fact?
IOW, wizards and magic spells. Pretending that "psychics" is a more dignified name doesn't change the substance of the claim.
Theres plenty of psychic practices that exist, plenty of idiots that claim they can see into the future and gak.
Yes, there are lots of gullible morons and/or scammers who will gladly take your money for a "psychic reading" or whatever. That doesn't make them real psychics.
And it's widely disputed.
No, it really isn't. It's only "disputed" by gullible morons and people who really wish that their fantasy world of wizards and magic spells was real. There is no credible argument that this is anything other than ignorance and wishful thinking.
Anyways, do you agree that matter, ALL MATTER (which is life itself) is energy? EVERYTHING IS MADE OF ENERGY? Do you like this fact?
Does a random fact from physics have anything to do with this discussion? No.
IOW, wizards and magic spells. Pretending that "psychics" is a more dignified name doesn't change the substance of the claim.
Theres plenty of psychic practices that exist, plenty of idiots that claim they can see into the future and gak.
Yes, there are lots of gullible morons and/or scammers who will gladly take your money for a "psychic reading" or whatever. That doesn't make them real psychics.
And it's widely disputed.
No, it really isn't. It's only "disputed" by gullible morons and people who really wish that their fantasy world of wizards and magic spells was real. There is no credible argument that this is anything other than ignorance and wishful thinking.
You got it the wrong way. I said that, there are plenty of "psychic" practices that are widely disputed. The mainstream science academy disputes these so called "psychics"... Your a chirpy one aren't yeah?
I was agreeing with why you have jumped the gun and laid down the label of "psychics" being ridiculous. These people and their practices are heavily disputed by the academies. Thats what I meant. Capeesh?
You jumped to a conclusion that I for some reason think of psychics being "wizards".
I was simply comparing 40K marines versus earth humans. 40K psykers where mentioned, then I later compared 40K psykers to these so called, self proclaimed human "psychics".
Anyways, do you agree that matter, ALL MATTER (which is life itself) is energy? EVERYTHING IS MADE OF ENERGY? Do you like this fact?
Does a random fact from physics have anything to do with this discussion? No.
You didn't answer my question and it is not random. It has nothing to do with marines, but it has something to do with science, and you like science don't you? ACtually, technically it does have everything do with everything, everything is energy.
Thats why I threw that in there. So? Do you believe everything is made of energy?
Just say yes or no man, quit thinking to hard. This is a scientific fact, that all matter is energy, yaddayadda.
I suppose that you think that thoughts are in some universal language...they aren't, at least according to the latest research, since ideas and thoughts are limited by the language that a culture possesses..
That is but a denser layer of consciousness more commonly used by us humans.
Life is universal. No matter how cut off, fragmented a state of being a sentient "thing" (like me and you, or orks) becomes, it always can if it tries to, to flow from the source, and not rely on external ideas. Spoken languages are the most primitive form of "communication".
This is how psykers operate - from many if not all of the layers that construct life, matter, mind, etc. Not just grey matter. They start from the "spot" where galaxies are created from, only on a isolated level, personal, channelled self. Hell, even some of our own human psychics are advanced enough to acess the more ethereal densities at will. Eventually, there comes a point where all is seen to be fully connected - and the information pours in. There is only one language, and that is life it self.
Your spoken tongue has and always will be a factor limiting human's perception of the greater forces at work. We as a species have been conditioned, indoctrinated by so many covert and overt things that no body stood a chance at personal growth, only the things forced upon them, the restricted environment lead to big isolation.
Therefore, many of mans ideas and thoughts are pre-formed by all of these external influences.
The psykers however, remember how life REALLY works, how you are your own god, and that matter is energy. Energy is you, you are energy. The air between your body and anothers is not to be confused as empty space, same with the space between planets. All is connected molecularily, atomically, energetically.
Psykers can use this energy.
Compared to your puny 3rd density slow purely mechanical thoughts and ideas, coming from jsut a small part of your entire essence - these psykers kick ass.
I really have no idea how that is going to glean intelligence value from 6+ billion human minds simultaneously from orbit...
Space magic = victory because reasons?
DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote: I was simply comparing 40K marines versus earth humans. 40K psykers where mentioned, then I later compared 40K psykers to these so called, self proclaimed human "psychics".
Then perhaps you could have clarified, when I asked you to do so, that you weren't actually claiming that psychic powers are real. You could have saved quite a bit of argument.
like seriously what does a hippy ass convo between 2-3 people about con-artists and psychers ahev G!A!K! to do with a FICTIONAL UNIVERSE... come on people stop smoking and start proving your not a bunch of white wolf wannabe's
To be fair, Peregrine, if we're going to cook up a fictional reality where Space Marines are going to invade us, we pretty much have to assume that psychics are real in said reality, because the Space Marines are going to bring them with.
Sticking your hands over your ears and saying "but there's no such thing as psychics!" is pointless when discussing being invaded by an army with psychic support. :p
Tomorrow furyou miko is going to comment on this thread again.. Peregrine will always continue to be difficult.. My brother will wear blue when he wakes up.. Ignatius will develop the worlds first true bolter and then accidently shoot the guy next to him that was suppose to pay him for it... And morgan freeman will comment on this thread at some point
The funny thing is that even if I don't comment, Tarkin will just say "well, that's because I said she wouldn't so she set out specifically to prove me wrong, which proves nothing."
I made no such claim. I said human psychics. You know? The biggest douche in the universe (South Park episode making fun of "psychics")? Theres plenty of psychic practices that exist, plenty of idiots that claim they can see into the future and gak.
And it's widely disputed.
Anyways, do you agree that matter, ALL MATTER (which is life itself) is energy? EVERYTHING IS MADE OF ENERGY? Do you like this fact?
Please. Don't use E=mc^2 if you don't understand it. It makes me cry. Life itself is not defined. So stop using scientific facts to try and rationalise space wizards who can read minds and break causality.
Also psychics are not widely disputed. They are all fake. They have never proven their "talents" under scientific rigour.
Tomorrow furyou miko is going to comment on this thread again.. Peregrine will always continue to be difficult.. My brother will wear blue when he wakes up.. Ignatius will develop the worlds first true bolter and then accidently shoot the guy next to him that was suppose to pay him for it... And morgan freeman will comment on this thread at some point
Tomorrow furyou miko is going to comment on this thread again.. Peregrine will always continue to be difficult.. My brother will wear blue when he wakes up.. Ignatius will develop the worlds first true bolter and then accidently shoot the guy next to him that was suppose to pay him for it... And morgan freeman will comment on this thread at some point
slade the sniper wrote: I keep seeing and reading how Space Marines can conquer an entire planet with just a Chapter or two, and how one Primarch can solo an entire army or conquer a planet single handedly....
The question is...HOW?
I just don't see it.
I think that a Primarch or a Chapter can locate a singular world government HQ, track all the leadership and then swoop down from orbit, capture/kill all of the leaders, destroy the commo nodes, ortillery the supply depots, nuke a few cities and all that jazz...but that still, to me, is not "conquering" an entire planet.
Especially if there is a planet without a singular government...like modern Earth. If there are 10 or 20 separate countries, how does 1000 marines "conquer" the planet? The fluff seems to be more indicative of 100+ marines doing surgical strikes and then 1 million+ IG dropping down immediately after to wage 5 to 10 years of pacification ops...
As for a Primarch solo'ing a planet? I really can't see that at all...
What say fellow dakkanaughts?
-STS
It has gotten way off topic and a lot to read through so I am throwing my two cents in here.
To me, as some others have said, Space Marines are suppose to be the elite of the elite. In the Horus Heresy, there used to be a lot more Marines in a Legion than there ever was in a Chapter of only a thousand marines which is why when a Legion actually was reduced to a thousand and decided to remain themsevles "Thousand Sons" it was a big deal. So back during the crusade, there was a lot more Space Marines in a given Legion. Regardless of this, when I have read the fluff, I have never gotten the impression that it was just Space Marines conquering galaxies even in the Horus Heresy, that the conquering if worlds was an Imperial effort with the Imperial Guard, Imperial Navy and the Adeptus Mechanicum all doing their part to help conquer planets but command always defaulted to the Space Marines since they were the elite of the elite of military strategists so they would always get the credit instead of the millions of human souls that it took to conquer that planet as well. Also, Primarchs were instrumental in setting up how the planet would be ruled and personally set up the planetary government. Also, several stories about Legions have more prevalent Imperial forces based on how close the Primarch sided with the rest of humanity. The Ultramarines and Raven Guard constantly talk about their Imperial Guard components because they didn't distance themselves from the regular humans but fully integrated into their Legion as a big part of this. The audio drama Raven's Flight does this particularly well to show that their were Imperial Guard components that were a big part of Corax's military force. Gullieman also did this with Ultramar seeing that a big part was an established Imperial Guard regiment. If the person doesn't cut it to be a Space Marine then he serves in the Imperial Guard with a fierce pride and loyalty. To add to that, the Space Wolves and
The Space Marines job was to hit strategic targets that would guarantee compliance while the other Imperial forces held an enemy at bay in other areas of the planet, they go in to secure an objective that would overwhelm any other Imperial Force because they are the best of the best but what makes a better story, the elite Space Marines going in to win a tactical victory that turned the tide of the battle or the month long siege the Imperial Guard that kept the enemy from breaching their defenses? It comes down to drama and in a battle that has gotten to a point where Space Marines are needed to come in and help, the drama is with them.
The details are there and the Space Marines never have conquered a planet on their own having a well orchestrated battle with all Imperial forces, bombardments from the atmosphere from the Imperial Navy, ground siege from Imperial Guard regiments and the AdMech bringing big mechanical toys coming in to support the Space Marines while they go in to secure vital points in the battle. That is why IMO, a more "fluff accurate" Apoc Battle, would include both Imperial Guard and Space Marines to show this relationship.
I dont have time to read through the rest of what I have already read however I will give my input on the subject matter.
Space marines are seen as near gods and are revered as such. If you dive into the 40k universe and look at it from the imperium perspective. What better way to make your troops feel more at ease than telling them these 8 ft tall armour clad demi gods can conquer whole planets regardless of truth. If people start correcting the rest of a population just execute them until only those who believe space marines are 1 man armies.
Your joe blogs working in a manufactorum is a pretty dumb or uneducated (or both) guy and takes the emperors word as truth. What better way to quell a rebellion than dropping 100 gods onto the battlefield. "oh gak those god like battle marine guys are here, the emperors wrath is upon us!!!!! run"
The imperium is a web of lies and deceit to keep its citizens in check. The fear generated by the mere thought of an astartes soldier means the beginning of the end to an imperial traitor and loyalist alike. Propaganda is a powerful thing when used on idiots
EDIT: Just finished reading all of this thread. I dont want to add any more to the various sub arguments that have errupted but all I will say (to try and give some perspective) is the only real difference between sci fi and fantasy, is fantasy replaces the word "technology" with "magic".[sarcasm] Pretend that space marine power armour is "magic" (the emperors divine protection or however you want to imagine it) instead of "super duper ceremite plating". Now that you are aware that its magic and completely unexplainable in its magical properties, throw all our meagre earth weapons (if you can even call them that compared to 40k magic fairy pixie weapons) and tell me you aint gak scared and want to surrender and let the emperors divine, divineness enter you! [/sarcasm]
Johnson & The Juice Crew wrote: I dont have time to read through the rest of what I have already read however I will give my input on the subject matter.
Space marines are seen as near gods and are revered as such. If you dive into the 40k universe and look at it from the imperium perspective. What better way to make your troops feel more at ease than telling them these 8 ft tall armour clad demi gods can conquer whole planets regardless of truth. If people start correcting the rest of a population just execute them until only those who believe space marines are 1 man armies.
Your joe blogs working in a manufactorum is a pretty dumb or uneducated (or both) guy and takes the emperors word as truth. What better way to quell a rebellion than dropping 100 gods onto the battlefield. "oh gak those god like battle marine guys are here, the emperors wrath is upon us!!!!! run"
The imperium is a web of lies and deceit to keep its citizens in check. The fear generated by the mere thought of an astartes soldier means the beginning of the end to an imperial traitor and loyalist alike. Propaganda is a powerful thing when used on idiots
Yes, exactly so. However if forced to actually fight a war at least 1,000 SM's with lots of IG will be needed for victory.
But essentially, the real meaning of "Astartes" is "death" and it has been thoroughly stressed to Imperial citizens. As you said, fear itself is a powerful weapon and nobody uses it better than SM's. It is unfortunately the only way to keep billions and billions of people around the Imperium to obey and unite for a mutual interest....survival.
If the IG/AM are not doing the conquering then the SM go in and bulldoze MAJOR resistance like military bases, leadership etc in a series of strategic and brutal precision strikes then when that is all said and done unless they want to make the planet their personal home or their in some way (resources, recruits etc) they move on and let the IG or some garrison force move in and steam roll everything else and establish everything from the Imperial Creed to the new governor and so on as the IG and AM have the man power to dig in stakes and hold it and establish things that the SM can't do unless the chapter drops everything to plant themselves on a new home planet.
Well, they probably could by themselves, but it would have to be at least 100,000
They would need 100 000 to conquer, but just 1000 cut out the primary targets; just 1000 to purge.
It would be a long and annoying fight for 1000 marines to actually "conquer" an entire planet, but they could easily kill off the planets muscle and then some.
Well, they probably could by themselves, but it would have to be at least 100,000
They would need 100 000 to conquer, but just 1000 cut out the primary targets; just 1000 to purge.
It would be a long and annoying fight for 1000 marines to actually "conquer" an entire planet, but they could easily kill off the planets muscle and then some.
The Marines would use surgical strikes and guerilla tactics. Once all the world's leaders are dead and key infrastructure is in ruins, the planet won't last long, and most likely would have already surrendered before that point. Once you have crippled the beast's legs and cut of its head, it is pretty much dead. At that point the SM install a new leadership, and the IG moves in to garrison the planet.
Iron_Captain wrote: The Marines would use surgical strikes and guerilla tactics. Once all the world's leaders are dead and key infrastructure is in ruins, the planet won't last long, and most likely would have already surrendered before that point.
Once you have crippled the beast's legs and cut of its head, it is pretty much dead.
At that point the SM install a new leadership, and the IG moves in to garrison the planet.
You can’t cut off a beast’s head if said beast has its head and neck buried in the dirt.
When was it agreed that modern small arms are equal to autoguns? Strength 3 weapons like lasguns are noted as blowing limbs off consistently. I thought m4s would be only strength 2.
AdeptSister wrote: When was it agreed that modern small arms are equal to autoguns? Strength 3 weapons like lasguns are noted as blowing limbs off consistently. I thought m4s would be only strength 2.
Read about an autogun on warhammer wikia or lexicanum and you'll see why.
And lasguns dont really blow limbs off, though they are significantly more powerful than an autogun.
AdeptSister wrote: When was it agreed that modern small arms are equal to autoguns? Strength 3 weapons like lasguns are noted as blowing limbs off consistently. I thought m4s would be only strength 2.
Read about an autogun on warhammer wikia or lexicanum and you'll see why.
And lasguns dont really blow limbs off, though they are significantly more powerful than an autogun.
Oh no, Lasguns certainly blow limbs off, burn large cavities in targets, etc. 5.56 meanwhile just pings around the body and/or fragments, while 7.62 either goes clean through or tumbles and then goes clean through. Even Autoguns are much more powerful than modern arms consider the larger caliber than conventional rifles.
AdeptSister wrote: When was it agreed that modern small arms are equal to autoguns? Strength 3 weapons like lasguns are noted as blowing limbs off consistently. I thought m4s would be only strength 2.
Read about an autogun on warhammer wikia or lexicanum and you'll see why.
And lasguns dont really blow limbs off, though they are significantly more powerful than an autogun.
Oh no, Lasguns certainly blow limbs off, burn large cavities in targets, etc. 5.56 meanwhile just pings around the body and/or fragments, while 7.62 either goes clean through or tumbles and then goes clean through. Even Autoguns are much more powerful than modern arms consider the larger caliber than conventional rifles.
No offense, I don't believe las guns blow limbs off. If you could share a source I would appreciate it.
AdeptSister wrote: When was it agreed that modern small arms are equal to autoguns? Strength 3 weapons like lasguns are noted as blowing limbs off consistently. I thought m4s would be only strength 2.
Read about an autogun on warhammer wikia or lexicanum and you'll see why.
And lasguns dont really blow limbs off, though they are significantly more powerful than an autogun.
Oh no, Lasguns certainly blow limbs off, burn large cavities in targets, etc. 5.56 meanwhile just pings around the body and/or fragments, while 7.62 either goes clean through or tumbles and then goes clean through. Even Autoguns are much more powerful than modern arms consider the larger caliber than conventional rifles.
No offense, I don't believe las guns blow limbs off. If you could share a source I would appreciate it.
Laspistols
“Calliden came out of his mad, erotic trance. He plunged his hand inside his black tunic, noticing for the first time that it was wet through. Out came the laspistol. Calliden was unused to wielding weapons. It took him a moment or two to wrap his fist around the handgrip, release the safety, aim, and press the firing stud.
Steam bubbled all along the length of the laser beam as it hissed through the water. But it failed to reach Aegelica. Instead, it struck a fish, nearly a yard long, which at that moment had glided between them. The fish exploded as the water in its body turned to steam. Fragments of flesh, skin, and bone drifted to the sea bed.” / Eye of Terror, p.116 - **
Blows up a fish just short of a yard.
“A las-blast felled the armsman beside Semper. The captain grabbed the man as he fell, intending to drag him into the bay, but then found himself staring into the excavated crater of the man’s skull, where the las-shot had blown half his head away.” / Execution Hour, p.224 - **
Blew half a man's head off.
Lasguns
“Tarok slumped down behind the rock.
As the stones pattered to the ground, a Deathlight flashed the stunted bushes itno flame. Tarok sprang up and fired at the Brannath who had just given away his position. The man fell forward out of the bushes with a fist-wide, smoking hole punched through his body from front to back. Strange, thought Tarok, that there is no blood.
That thought almost cost him his life. He almost failed to notice the shadow sliding over the rocks behind and right of him. The rock glowed and began to melt as he dived away from the beam of the Deathlight. The Brannath was not quick enough with his second shot.” / Rogue Trader compendium, p.145 - **
Burns a fist-sized hole through somebody.
“‘Good.’ She aimed the lasgun and took the prone man’s head off with one shot. You’ll be next unless you do exactly, precisely what I tell you. Understand?’” / Faith and Fire, p.110 - **
Burns a head off. Might just have blown apart the neck, isn't specific.
“The older man sidestepped, so as not to risk hitting the girl. Then he blew the second chanter’s head into steam.” / Hammer and Bolter (#13), p.141 - **
Truly vaporizes a head.
“A las-shot skimmed his helmet, the kinetic force slapping the top of his head as if reminding him to keep behind cover.” / Flesh and Iron, p.281 - **
Deathlights are a particularly punchy version of lasguns but, yeah, lasguns will mess you up real bad. The thermal energy imparted to the wound-site causes the blood and water in the surrounding tissue to suddenly convert to steam. This sudden increase in hydrostatic pressure causes the flesh to basically explode.
AdeptSister wrote: When was it agreed that modern small arms are equal to autoguns? Strength 3 weapons like lasguns are noted as blowing limbs off consistently. I thought m4s would be only strength 2.
Read about an autogun on warhammer wikia or lexicanum and you'll see why.
And lasguns dont really blow limbs off, though they are significantly more powerful than an autogun.
Oh no, Lasguns certainly blow limbs off, burn large cavities in targets, etc. 5.56 meanwhile just pings around the body and/or fragments, while 7.62 either goes clean through or tumbles and then goes clean through. Even Autoguns are much more powerful than modern arms consider the larger caliber than conventional rifles.
No offense, I don't believe las guns blow limbs off. If you could share a source I would appreciate it.
Laspistols
“Calliden came out of his mad, erotic trance. He plunged his hand inside his black tunic, noticing for the first time that it was wet through. Out came the laspistol. Calliden was unused to wielding weapons. It took him a moment or two to wrap his fist around the handgrip, release the safety, aim, and press the firing stud.
Steam bubbled all along the length of the laser beam as it hissed through the water. But it failed to reach Aegelica. Instead, it struck a fish, nearly a yard long, which at that moment had glided between them. The fish exploded as the water in its body turned to steam. Fragments of flesh, skin, and bone drifted to the sea bed.” / Eye of Terror, p.116 - **
Blows up a fish just short of a yard.
“A las-blast felled the armsman beside Semper. The captain grabbed the man as he fell, intending to drag him into the bay, but then found himself staring into the excavated crater of the man’s skull, where the las-shot had blown half his head away.” / Execution Hour, p.224 - **
Blew half a man's head off.
Lasguns
“Tarok slumped down behind the rock.
As the stones pattered to the ground, a Deathlight flashed the stunted bushes itno flame. Tarok sprang up and fired at the Brannath who had just given away his position. The man fell forward out of the bushes with a fist-wide, smoking hole punched through his body from front to back. Strange, thought Tarok, that there is no blood.
That thought almost cost him his life. He almost failed to notice the shadow sliding over the rocks behind and right of him. The rock glowed and began to melt as he dived away from the beam of the Deathlight. The Brannath was not quick enough with his second shot.” / Rogue Trader compendium, p.145 - **
Burns a fist-sized hole through somebody.
“‘Good.’ She aimed the lasgun and took the prone man’s head off with one shot. You’ll be next unless you do exactly, precisely what I tell you. Understand?’” / Faith and Fire, p.110 - **
Burns a head off. Might just have blown apart the neck, isn't specific.
“The older man sidestepped, so as not to risk hitting the girl. Then he blew the second chanter’s head into steam.” / Hammer and Bolter (#13), p.141 - **
Truly vaporizes a head.
“A las-shot skimmed his helmet, the kinetic force slapping the top of his head as if reminding him to keep behind cover.” / Flesh and Iron, p.281 - **
Las-shots carry kinetic force.
Hmm, I suppose so. They are absurdly weak in camparison to a bolter then.
I mean, lasguns are said to be like flashlights against PA which is ludicris considering what I just read.
Psienesis wrote: Deathlights are a particularly punchy version of lasguns but, yeah, lasguns will mess you up real bad. The thermal energy imparted to the wound-site causes the blood and water in the surrounding tissue to suddenly convert to steam. This sudden increase in hydrostatic pressure causes the flesh to basically explode.
Psienesis should be answering ALL of your questions from now on, especially the OP's thread's question.
Psienesis wrote: Deathlights are a particularly punchy version of lasguns but, yeah, lasguns will mess you up real bad. The thermal energy imparted to the wound-site causes the blood and water in the surrounding tissue to suddenly convert to steam. This sudden increase in hydrostatic pressure causes the flesh to basically explode.
Thanks for the scientifical explanation. *tips hat*
AdeptSister wrote:When was it agreed that modern small arms are equal to autoguns? Strength 3 weapons like lasguns are noted as blowing limbs off consistently. I thought m4s would be only strength 2.
AdeptSister wrote:So once again, Lasguns are Str3 and will do incredible amounts of damage. How are we comparing them to our current assault rifles?
S3 is a widely varied bracket.
After all, in all this discussion of the strength of rifles, you have to realise that a Guardsman punching you is also a S3 attack.
See I always interpreted the attack characteristic not so literally. A bolter or shuriken catapult does not fire only a few shots in the descriptions, so I always thought of the Strength of an attack to be representative of how much accurate damage something can do in this one section of time (maybe a few seconds). So a single melee 'attack' is guardsmen desperately trying to kill something in a few moments in time with everything s/he has got (point blank short bursts, stabbings, eye gouging, etc.) IMO, a trained soldier can do a lot of lethal damage in a few seconds.
Depends on the regiment in question. Some are probably very well trained on close quarter drill while most have rudimentary training. It's not a necessary skill for a being that will fold like wet paper against most close combat oriented things.
Yes. IG or AM are supposed to be the best of a world's soldiers. Only the best (with the exception of conscripts) go to the Emperor's forces! It's just that in comparison with the deadliness of the 4th universe, everything else is better.
But Furyou Miko make a good point about Strength ranges: a d6 system has its limits.
The IG in general are pretty well trained. Many are very well trained indeed. Units like Kasrkin or Scions (stormtroopers) are essentially Space Marines without the genetic/biological enhancement, trained as harshly and thoroughly as a human body can handle. Death Korps guardsmen are highly trained in melee combat (as reflected by their WS4).
Don't forget that the ig are the best a planet has to offer. The ig sneer at the pdf. If a planetary governor provides sub standard recruits then he is clearly a heretic.
Also comparing 40k weapons to 2k weapons is dumb. Once you start applying real world physics to Ia particular part of a sci fI universe then everything starts to break down. xplain to me hhow in 38 thousand years that humans from millions of worlds are essentially the same as US now with no evolution. How are space ships and fighters flying through space as if it's earthy atmosphere.
Lasguns ( whilst being the basic low end weapon of the 40k universe) are better than our pitifully weapons because they just are. The emperors divine wisdom makes it so. The only thing comparable between a lasgun and an m4 is that it's a weapon for the rank and file because jack of all trades.
You need to take stuff in 40k with a pinch of salt. Try to generalise than get down and explain every point in super fine detail
AdeptSister wrote: See I always interpreted the attack characteristic not so literally. A bolter or shuriken catapult does not fire only a few shots in the descriptions, so I always thought of the Strength of an attack to be representative of how much accurate damage something can do in this one section of time (maybe a few seconds). So a single melee 'attack' is guardsmen desperately trying to kill something in a few moments in time with everything s/he has got (point blank short bursts, stabbings, eye gouging, etc.) IMO, a trained soldier can do a lot of lethal damage in a few seconds.
Very good imagination. Something a lot of people lack.
Iron_Captain wrote: The Marines would use surgical strikes and guerilla tactics. Once all the world's leaders are dead and key infrastructure is in ruins, the planet won't last long, and most likely would have already surrendered before that point.
Once you have crippled the beast's legs and cut of its head, it is pretty much dead.
At that point the SM install a new leadership, and the IG moves in to garrison the planet.
You can’t cut off a beast’s head if said beast has its head and neck buried in the dirt.
You are aware we are talking about 1000 Marines (at maximum) right?
It could be ten Marines. They'd still conquer a planet like ours as long as they had a single starship, As long as someone is piloting that ship we'd have no defense against tactical orbital bombardments.
Really, since when have navies conquered anything?
They can have 10 star ships and bomb the world for days. but it wont conquer the planet. Just be a pain in the butt. If anything its just adding to the huge stuff the guy who ordered the attack.
In the pacific the US navy would bombard islands for days before attacking. Did very little to actually hinder the enemy. They still needed to send in 10s of thousands of marines to actually conquer it.
Navies help win wars. They do not win them on their own.
Like most humans, we will quickly find a way to eliminate it. Also we are talking about the 40k universe which would be far better than ours in terms of defenses.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BlaxicanX wrote: A single chapter can conquer a planet the same way a single regiment or handful of regiments routinely do in the fluff.
It's almost as if Games Workshop has no sense of scale, or something. Focusing your anus-anger on only a single aspect of that failing (Space Marines) is silly.
Agreed, I always imagine hundreds of millions of men having to conquer planets in my fluff. If not more.
Yeah but, that was a few artillary and rocket runs. This is advanced plasma weaponry nukes and the best weapons we have ever seen firing down when we have no realistic defense. Star ships in 40k can take a nuke to the side and shrug it off like a moth trying to chew though power armour.
Marines don't conquer planets, the Imperium conquers planets.
You have your marines attacking specific locations, destroying the chain of command and similar targets of priority.
The Imperial Navy provide artillery and transport capacity, moving troops from place to place and flattening whole continents at the push of a button.
The Imperial Guard march in and capture the cities and keep the populace down.
You need at least all three in order to successfully conquer a planet. Marines might be superhuman, but throw enough poo at a wall and some of it will stick.
welshhoppo wrote: Marines don't conquer planets, the Imperium conquers planets.
You have your marines attacking specific locations, destroying the chain of command and similar targets of priority.
The Imperial Navy provide artillery and transport capacity, moving troops from place to place and flattening whole continents at the push of a button.
The Imperial Guard march in and capture the cities and keep the populace down.
You need at least all three in order to successfully conquer a planet. Marines might be superhuman, but throw enough poo at a wall and some of it will stick.
I disagree. IG don't 'need' Marines to conquer a planet, and vice versa. It's all about how many you are talking about.
Well that's why I said three. Marines would only come to attack planets which are extra tough or strategically important.
However if every marine landed on earth you would have one million marines. There are at least seven billion people on earth alone. That means that we outnumber the marines at least seven thousand to one. The land available on earth is 149 million km2. There are simply not enough marines to cover all of the earth at once. And that is not including anyone who wishes to live on the oceans.
I mean, can A space marine just ignore severed muscle in his arm joint if a piece of shrapnel got lodged in there? Of course not! Think about how muscle works! You cant shrug that kinda of common damage off, his arm will cease to work period. Let alone the severed artery's etc etc.
So please, humour me. Tell me how a Space Marine can beat us
The arm, unless the tendons gone, it will work. I've pulled 6" of steel out of mine, and given the finger to everyone, reached for a glass with the other hand. and i'm just a regular humie.
Ignatius. What granted the US control of the oil fields, afghan opium AIR SUPERIORITY.
You no longer have that. Thunder hawks which are based on the space shuttle. Drop from the sky faster than human's can handle.
Your planes have no vtol.
I mean, can A space marine just ignore severed muscle in his arm joint if a piece of shrapnel got lodged in there? Of course not! Think about how muscle works! You cant shrug that kinda of common damage off, his arm will cease to work period. Let alone the severed artery's etc etc.
So please, humour me. Tell me how a Space Marine can beat us
The arm, unless the tendons gone, it will work. I've pulled 6" of steel out of mine, and given the finger to everyone, reached for a glass with the other hand. and i'm just a regular humie.
Ignatius. What granted the US control of the oil fields, afghan opium AIR SUPERIORITY.
You no longer have that. Thunder hawks which are based on the space shuttle. Drop from the sky faster than human's can handle.
Your planes have no vtol.
Not even that, the capital ship in orbit can crack goddamn continents, just drop a shot on every military base and the problem is solved.
I mean, can A space marine just ignore severed muscle in his arm joint if a piece of shrapnel got lodged in there? Of course not! Think about how muscle works! You cant shrug that kinda of common damage off, his arm will cease to work period. Let alone the severed artery's etc etc.
So please, humour me. Tell me how a Space Marine can beat us
The arm, unless the tendons gone, it will work. I've pulled 6" of steel out of mine, and given the finger to everyone, reached for a glass with the other hand. and i'm just a regular humie.
Ignatius. What granted the US control of the oil fields, afghan opium AIR SUPERIORITY.
You no longer have that. Thunder hawks which are based on the space shuttle. Drop from the sky faster than human's can handle.
Your planes have no vtol.
SM's dont' exactly field large numbers of aircraft, with the recent additions of the Storm Talon/Storm Eagle/Storm Raven on top of the Thunderhawk, they may have 50-200 aircraft in a chapter (meanwhile the US air force alone fields 1600 fighter aircraft, not counting ground attack planes or other types of aircraft or other branches, much less other nations), something like a Thunderhawk (or Storm Raven) isn't exactly an air superiority craft and could be easily targeted and engaged from beyond the horizon by modern fighter aircraft and anti-aircraft systems (and which has never been mentioned as a capability of the Thunderhawk)
With regards to speed, no, they're not faster than anything we can handle, we have GW and FW's stated numbers for a Thunderhawk's maxmimum speed, which is about ~2,000 km/h according to White Dwarf and Imperial Armour Volume II. The F-4 Phantom, which first flew in 1958, was capable of exceeding that and engaging targets at such speeds, as are all fighter aircraft since then. Meanwhile, there are thousands of attack helicopters which, by nature, are capable of VTOL flight, not to mention aircraft like the AV-8 Harrier which remains in service in not insubstantial numbers, and (maybe soon possibly?) the F-35.
Not to mention the fact that the Thunderhawk, as designed, would probably be incapable of controlled, sustained flight given that it shares most of the same aerodynamic qualities of a brick, and even if it could, would be the biggest radar target in existence.
So, we're talking exceedingly small numbers of aircraft, which are primarily ground attack and infantry transport aircraft, which fly well within modern engagement speeds.
Ultimately, 40k is a fantasy universe, it isn't really "science fiction", it's Knights and Dragons and Goblins with a Starship Troopers texture pack. From any sort of realistic perspective, given the figures and stats published by GW, it falls apart very rapidly once analyzed.
Not even that, the capital ship in orbit can crack goddamn continents, just drop a shot on every military base and the problem is solved.
How do they know where all these military bases are? We're also not talking about just a couple dozen targets, we're talking about tens of thousands of facilities across the planet. And this is assuming the ship isn't in low orbit where thousands of ground based nuclear missiles could be brought to bear against it.
pm713 wrote: If only they had some kind of scanner and the ability to read minds......wait.
And they've got to know where to find the who that knows the what, and do so without getting splattered in the process.
Ok, you are a broken record by now.
Look, SM's have detection methods and radar technology you cant comprehend. They can hack into our defense mainframes, hack into our networks and and litterally jack our satellites.
With our networks seized they will scan all military assets worldwide, expunge any information they want while at the same time downloading anything they need. They will find out our most advanced weapons and technology, how much of each piece of technology we possess, uncover classified military operations and more. With collected information they will use our very own satellites to locate anything they please. They will assess military outposts, research facilities and command structures worldwide. After enough information has been collected they will commence negotiations, which...we will assume fail considering Earth isnt going to worship an Emperor they've never heard of or met.
SM's will drop continental bombs, ravaging every continent on planet earth. After which 1,000 fully armed and armored superhumans will strike at the most valuable enemy positions, eliminating enemy command structures one by one. They will strike faster than lightning and hit harder than an earthquake before being picked up to be resupplied and deployed to their next location... So forget about getting armored devisions and infantry regiments in any kind of tactically sound manoeuvres.
The SM's will also have the advantage of the enemy having no idea where they will be hit next. Considering their are 7 dazzled continents with no sense of direction.
It will be long fight but they will most likely win with psychological warfare.
AIR SUPERIORITY.
