It does smack of a desperate attempt at infusing life into a dying branch of the company..I will be curious to see how GW executes this..and to be honest..i have been seeing this coming for some time, so here is hoping for the best..and bracing for the worst.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: It does smack of a desperate attempt at infusing life into a dying branch of the company..I will be curious to see how GW executes this..and to be honest..i have been seeing this coming for some time, so here is hoping for the best..and bracing for the worst.
I think GW rightly believes that they have very little to lose at this point.
- If the naysayers are right, then WFB shrinks a bunch, but the ongoing cost to support goes close to zero, so GW loses less on the WFB line.
- If GW is right, then WFB holds with half the ongoing support cost, so WFB becomes a marginally profitable line.
Either way, GW gets mostly new blood into Fantasy, and eventually, they can grow it to something more profitable, say 10th Ed in 2018 (3 years in).
And regardless, trying to do more with Fantasy has been shown to fail. Players buy the big fancy kits. Players buy the dataslates with the flashy rules. Players pay a lot for Limited Edition product. Why wouldn't GW capitalize on those trends?
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: It does smack of a desperate attempt at infusing life into a dying branch of the company..I will be curious to see how GW executes this..and to be honest..i have been seeing this coming for some time, so here is hoping for the best..and bracing for the worst.
I think GW rightly believes that they have very little to lose at this point.
- If the naysayers are right, then WFB shrinks a bunch, but the ongoing cost to support goes close to zero, so GW loses less on the WFB line.
- If GW is right, then WFB holds with half the ongoing support cost, so WFB becomes a marginally profitable line.
Either way, GW gets mostly new blood into Fantasy, and eventually, they can grow it to something more profitable, say 10th Ed in 2018 (3 years in).
And regardless, trying to do more with Fantasy has been shown to fail. Players buy the big fancy kits. Players buy the dataslates with the flashy rules. Players pay a lot for Limited Edition product. Why wouldn't GW capitalize on those trends?
I get what you're saying regarding gw's (usually very humourous) perspective, but i don't see how this brings in new players. It's like that episode of the simpsons where homer tries to drum up new business for the bowling alley by randomly firing his shotgun outside in the parking lot. It's like the underpants gnomes who have step 1 and step 3 all mapped out, but no clue what step 2 is. It's like.... it's like games workshop.
As someone who is looking into buying my first "real" Fantasy army, the thing that was putting me and my friends back from it wasn't the cost, it was the playerbase. There is almost no one in my area that plays it, but 40k has dedicated game days for it at my LGS, but nothing for fantasy.
For them to want to remove races or clump them together seems like a bad choice to me. I would prefer them to put more money into advertising or creating "ready to play" sets.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: It does smack of a desperate attempt at infusing life into a dying branch of the company..I will be curious to see how GW executes this..and to be honest..i have been seeing this coming for some time, so here is hoping for the best..and bracing for the worst.
I think GW rightly believes that they have very little to lose at this point.
- If the naysayers are right, then WFB shrinks a bunch, but the ongoing cost to support goes close to zero, so GW loses less on the WFB line.
- If GW is right, then WFB holds with half the ongoing support cost, so WFB becomes a marginally profitable line.
Either way, GW gets mostly new blood into Fantasy, and eventually, they can grow it to something more profitable, say 10th Ed in 2018 (3 years in).
And regardless, trying to do more with Fantasy has been shown to fail. Players buy the big fancy kits. Players buy the dataslates with the flashy rules. Players pay a lot for Limited Edition product. Why wouldn't GW capitalize on those trends?
I'm pretty fully in agreement with you about this, it seems to make the most sense. I'm really curious to see how this is all going to go down.
I think if true, it will simply come down to the models.. if they are the best they have released as suggested.. so good avid collectors find it hard to turn them down even in the on going chaos of such drastic changes.. it might just work.
Also, with the shattered worlds thing.. continuing speculation it might be true, if they do indeed drop any factions, it wouldn't take a lot of effort to bring them back in some way down the road.. a new 'bubble' is discovered etc... if this turned Fantasy's fortunes around.
Half of the stuff they have made in the last 2 years will be invalidated. Gw could just as easily avoid people going with proxies by being COMPETITIVE in their market. But that will never happen.
Well I have been telling my wife for a while that GW has been pissing me off lately and that I just need to wait until all of my armies are updated build up the armies off the most up to date books and move onto another system (really fell in love with warmahordes). All my fantasy armies are up to date so I think I will finally finish up my armies with all the options I want and step away for a while....now I can only hope they update all my 40k armies so I can do the same thing for that system too. Not going to rage out or gloom and doom just realizing with the GW price hike and them making dramatic army changes(the blood angel codex fiasco, and now the possibility of my lizardmen, wood elves and ogre kingdoms going away) costing me huge amounts of money just to stick with the game that I will just stick with the edition I am in and enjoy that one.....maybe one day I will wander back to the system when it feels new again and not as frustrating.
gorgon wrote: Hey there, chief. My post was pretty obviously in reference to the release schedule component to these rumors.
So lighten the feth up. You have miniatures, I have miniatures, we all have miniatures. And none of us really know what's going to happen. I suspect that even if these rumors come to pass, there will still be a healthy number of people playing 8th edition (or some variant thereof). Especially since organized play is now in the hands of the people instead of the company.
The only thing resembling panic in the thread so far are people like myself who are concerned that their army is one of those slated to be axed according to the rumor. The people discussing the purported limited release schedule seem to be more incredulous than anything else.
Still, no big deal here until I see if all of this turns out completely true or not.
agnosto wrote: why don't you burn $1500 of your own money and then tell me how you feel, m'kay?
Not really a fair comparison, because this:
completely invalidating the entire army
... isn't really true.
To be fair, you're likely correct to an extent; time will tell.
There us this though:
Many existing models are not usable in 9th.
So, if true, we're all going to wind up with "many" unusable game models that can either be binned or relegated to being pretties on a shelf. Let's say Gnoblars are axed, that's over a hundred models that I own and many hours of prep and paint not to mention cash outlay. Not an expensive enough example? How about Blood Knights go away? How much of an army that you own being made unusable would it take for you to be concerned?
Has this bit been discussed yet? From the bottom of this BOLS article, and attributed to Earlybird. Just sounds like piling on existing rumors, but still worth noting:
If this is true (which I seriously doubt at this point) I really don't see how invalidating 75%+ of existing models/armies and removing anything interesting from the remainder will improve sales.
This scares me... Warhammer is one of my favorite games and have a ton of armies.. Plus I am an old timer and watched them kill "EPIC" back in the day.. If they do something similar to fantasy I fear l'll be stuck with a bunch of miniatures that will be impossible to get rid of. I have never mind the small changes over the years, some good ...some bad.. but changing base type just to try to get new players seems like shooting themselves in the foot. And their goal is to sale miniatures.. how is less miniatures improve sales?
This sounds unreal. Maybe a spin-off smaller scale game, a tabletop version of an LCG? That's what it sounds like to me. Perhaps making another WHFB game to draw more interest to the franchise, and lead people into starting the "main" game.
Or just made up rumors that people are just running with.
If true, and I'm not 100% writing it off, this would pretty much be the nail in the coffin for me with GW. My friends have basically no interest in 40k right now, and murdering fantasy would basically kill any last shred of interest in it we had. As it is, we're basically ignoring End Times stuff as much from lack of interest in End Times as from lack of interest in Fantasy at the moment. (We've been on an X-Wing kick lately).
I won't be selling off my armies or anything. I have rule books so I can continue to play the game as I want. I have sunk way too much money into it to just walk away completely, but I don't imagine I'd buy anything new, ever.
Too bad. I (like most here) have been playing GW games for a long time; they're what got me into table top gaming in the first place. It would be a shame for them to go completely by the wayside.
RiTides wrote: Has this bit been discussed yet? From the bottom of this BOLS article, and attributed to Earlybird. Just sounds like piling on existing rumors, but still worth noting:
RiTides wrote: Has this bit been discussed yet? From the bottom of this BOLS article, and attributed to Earlybird. Just sounds like piling on existing rumors, but still worth noting:
agnosto wrote: The only thing resembling panic in the thread so far are people like myself who are concerned that their army is one of those slated to be axed according to the rumor.
No armies are going to be axed. You'll still be able to play with them. You just won't see any new releases in the current "Old World" style ever again. But GW won't ban 8E armies from 9E. 9E will be a transition period as they introduce the various streamlined (yet also 15% more points efficient) Grimdark Armies that replace the bloated Old World Armies. During 9E, expect the rapid release of a series of new Grimdark Hero and Grimdark Core units in 2015 to support the new Grimdark Armies that replace the various Old World Armies.
2016, I'd expect we see a mix of Grimdark 2-in-1 Specials (e.g. Grimdark Ogres) and/or Grimdark 2-in-1 Rares in 2016 and 2017, along with limited edition releases of select Old World models updated to Grimdark form.
When 10E comes out (2018?), expect to see the Old World "bubbles" collapse and WFB to be Grimdark all the way.
Anyone think this isn't how GW goes forward? Yes, no?
Scroll down a bit to Avian's post - which I quote now for convenience
Quote Originally Posted by AngryOrcBitch...WAAAGH! View Post
What the *****! No way.... there is just no way.
You should not trust people simply based on their user name. This guy has a history of first posting nonsense about the High Elf book and then posting nonsense about the Wood Elf book. No reason to start believing in him now.
Earlybird is the opposite of a good source. BOLS haven't checked this before posting but on Warseer he was rightfully ignored. Better not trust him - especially with all these details which WILL make people sad or worse very angry.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Hasn't much of this been confirmed by Harry, who is a good source?
No, one example (I have a serious flu and cannot read and compare texts for more than a few minutes at the moment) the lizardmen removal. It is not in Harry's post.
Harry also does not specificaly mention what happens to each race nor do Darnok's sources. Better be careful with this
Normally, I'd poo poo this type of huge change but D&D did pretty much the same thing with their most popular setting (forgotten realms) with the advent of 4th edition. Granted, WOTC didn't have to worry about invalidating folks' armies of minis but that type of huge shake up with a new edition for a popular and long running product line has precedent within the industry.
I really have no words for what GW is going to do at this point, but I'd like to soapbox for a moment and remind us all of something.
Just because a new edition arrives doesn't mean you have to pack your old one away and move to the latest and greatest. We've been treating GW models like new Cars or expensive computer hardware, enthusiasts in those hobbies switch to the latest and greatest because of enhanced features and function. There is some of that with GW product, shiny new model syndrome is an internal term at GW for a reason, gotta have a rules book to sell to coincide with that model.
If 9th is a whole different game that just derives from the fluff then treat it as such, continue to play 8th or 6th/7th. (To me it sounds like they are moving to a more warmahordes style of play?)
D&D players have done this for years, I know a few groups that were playing 3, 3.5, 4th to Pathfinder and went back to using second edition. Just like Paizo made Wizards pay through the nose for 4th edition, Mantic or some other company will capitalize on this and give you better rules for your models.
Just because a new edition arrives doesn't mean you have to pack your old one away and move to the latest and greatest. We've been treating GW models like new Cars or expensive computer hardware, enthusiasts in those hobbies switch to the latest and greatest because of enhanced features and function. There is some of that with GW product, shiny new model syndrome is an internal term at GW for a reason, gotta have a rules book to sell to coincide with that model.
If 9th is a whole different game that just derives from the fluff then treat it as such, continue to play 8th or 6th/7th.
This sort of comment comes up regularly in new edition threads (and it's being bandied around on Warseer at the moment too). To play devil's advocate for a minute (I have no skin in this game because I don't play WFB), your comment is only valid if you've got a group of friends of like mind. If you're someone who mostly plays pick-up games at a shop then you'll be out of luck. It's much more likely that your opponents will either keep buying into new editions (meaning you need to do the same to get a game) or they'll just quit entirely (meaning you won't have anyone to play against).
Orock wrote: This sounds exactly like what GW would do to me. Change everything around at the expense of those who have already invested tons o cash, and are probaby all wringed out, hopefully make it less model intensive so you can actually get some new blood interested in buying (remember rules and fluff are not important) and even combine armies together so that anyone that does stay that is invested in say orcs and goblins, now has to invest in ogre kingdoms too to stay competative/make up for their lost units.
Honestly Ill be more suprised if this DOSENT happen.
You forgot one thing: Make all the existing stock irrelevant for resale on ebay etc. since the models are out-dated and can be used as proxies at best.
warboss wrote: Normally, I'd poo poo this type of huge change but D&D did pretty much the same thing with their most popular setting (forgotten realms) with the advent of 4th edition. Granted, WOTC didn't have to worry about invalidating folks' armies of minis but that type of huge shake up with a new edition for a popular and long running product line has precedent within the industry.
It also sort of happened with BattleTech. When the license went to Wizkids BTech became MechWarrikr: Dark Age with a new ruleset that invalidated the old game.
Just because a new edition arrives doesn't mean you have to pack your old one away and move to the latest and greatest. We've been treating GW models like new Cars or expensive computer hardware, enthusiasts in those hobbies switch to the latest and greatest because of enhanced features and function. There is some of that with GW product, shiny new model syndrome is an internal term at GW for a reason, gotta have a rules book to sell to coincide with that model.
If 9th is a whole different game that just derives from the fluff then treat it as such, continue to play 8th or 6th/7th.
This sort of comment comes up regularly in new edition threads (and it's being bandied around on Warseer at the moment too). To play devil's advocate for a minute (I have no skin in this game because I don't play WFB), your comment is only valid if you've got a group of friends of like mind. If you're someone who mostly plays pick-up games at a shop then you'll be out of luck. It's much more likely that your opponents will either keep buying into new editions (meaning you need to do the same to get a game) or they'll just quit entirely (meaning you won't have anyone to play against).
Thats a fair assessment, one of the reasons 40k and fantasy are/were so popular is you could take your army to any store that carried it and find a pickup game. It's still true for 40k but i don't think fantasy will have that luxury if the changes are as dramatic as they say. We may see folks folding into gaming groups more than pickup games which doesn't speak well for the line.
I think people speculating on the speculation is pretty funny, especially when posted as fact.
Cool your jets, folks.
It could be pretty interesting, but I'm certainly holding off on the WoC and/or Empire army/ies I was thinking of starting this year. I'll get stuck in to Infinity 3.0 instead.
There are a few issues with Fantasy which could be addressed but if I could change one thing, it would be game length. 10 minutes each per turn would get you a 6 turn game in two hours. Too much pondering and referring back to the books just adds flab.
If I could change another, it would number of models required. A box of Saurus/Orc Boyz/Black Knights should be a viable option. You shouldn't need three boxes.
warboss wrote: Normally, I'd poo poo this type of huge change but D&D did pretty much the same thing with their most popular setting (forgotten realms) with the advent of 4th edition. Granted, WOTC didn't have to worry about invalidating folks' armies of minis but that type of huge shake up with a new edition for a popular and long running product line has precedent within the industry.
Well, to be fair, not only for 4th edition. The Forgotten Realms have been shaken up pretty badly more or less with every new D&D edition.
Thanks for keeping this updated, Accolade! With a 4-15 record, it definitely seems worth having a huge caveat / completely ignoring Earlybird - he is likely just parroting and tweaking other rumor mongers.
He has a 3 out of 4 chance of being wrong based on prior results - meaning it's much more likely to be what isn't true . I see you noted that in the OP but honestly might be worth removing entirely, or making a separate "unreliable" section (rumor mongers with no record or a very negative record) to chuck all that junk into.
RiTides wrote: Thanks for keeping this updated, Accolade! With a 4-15 record, it definitely seems worth having a huge caveat / completely ignoring Earlybird - he is likely just parroting and tweaking other rumor mongers.
I'm unfamiliar with the Greater Spotted Tweaker, pray tell what is it's natural habitat?
(Your pun gets 10/10 for effort, but 2/10 for execution )
RiTides wrote: Thanks for keeping this updated, Accolade! With a 4-15 record, it definitely seems worth having a huge caveat / completely ignoring Earlybird - he is likely just parroting and tweaking other rumor mongers.
I'm unfamiliar with the Greater Spotted Tweaker, pray tell what is it's natural habitat?
(Your pun gets 10/10 for effort, but 2/10 for execution )
warboss wrote: Normally, I'd poo poo this type of huge change but D&D did pretty much the same thing with their most popular setting (forgotten realms) with the advent of 4th edition. Granted, WOTC didn't have to worry about invalidating folks' armies of minis but that type of huge shake up with a new edition for a popular and long running product line has precedent within the industry.
It also sort of happened with BattleTech. When the license went to Wizkids BTech became MechWarrikr: Dark Age with a new ruleset that invalidated the old game.
And WizKids proceeded to drive Battletech right into the ground.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: This is all a bunch of baseless crap, as is most of the stuff from warseer.
And you base this on what exactly?
If you have contradicting info to share please do instead of just dismissing stuff because reasons despite some of these rumours coming from reputable sources.
Darnok and Harry (the first several sections of the OP here) are very reliable afaik. This "bubble" thing is happening, it's the peripheral details other mongers are adding on (base changes, losing an entire race) that are extremely questionable, imo. Could be true, but just feels like guessing at this point.
To tack onto RITides, Harry over at Warseer (who has a very good reputation with rumors) had made posts about this rumor almost six months ago- still in the right time frame of release and everything. Obviously, there wasn't much to say or do about that since it was so far out but now you have Darnok, one of the biggest names over on Warseer, posting almost the exact same things. Their reputations, in conjunction with the fluxing state of WHFB (aka End Times) corroborates their stories quite well. With that in mind, I think it's definitely worth giving this rumor credence (not time to purge all of your miniatures of course).
Warboss Gubbinz wrote:Just because a new edition arrives doesn't mean you have to pack your old one away and move to the latest and greatest. We've been treating GW models like new Cars or expensive computer hardware, enthusiasts in those hobbies switch to the latest and greatest because of enhanced features and function. There is some of that with GW product, shiny new model syndrome is an internal term at GW for a reason, gotta have a rules book to sell to coincide with that model.
If 9th is a whole different game that just derives from the fluff then treat it as such, continue to play 8th or 6th/7th. (To me it sounds like they are moving to a more warmahordes style of play?)
We could stand on a rooftop and scream this at the top of our lungs, but I wonder how many actually bother to listen? People recoil from old editions like they were rattlesnakes, and the overarching reason seems to be 'lack of support'. And since GW don't really fix or complete anything between editions, as far as I can tell - including by many folks coming out and saying it - 'support' seems to mean 'releasing new things to buy'. It's then with a little lurch of horror (just a little lurch) I realise just how twisted the gaming culture of GW is, that what you say is right, and that means Alan Merrett was right: GW fans abandon old editions because otherwise they can't keep up their hobby of buying GW products.
Warboss Gubbinz wrote:Thats a fair assessment, one of the reasons 40k and fantasy are/were so popular is you could take your army to any store that carried it and find a pickup game. It's still true for 40k but i don't think fantasy will have that luxury if the changes are as dramatic as they say. We may see folks folding into gaming groups more than pickup games which doesn't speak well for the line.
"Welcome to gaming outside the GW compound. Please deposit your feeding spoons in the receptacles provided. Following routine deprogramming you will have many training courses at your disposal including: basic networking in the internet age, 5+ year-old books are not poison, and multibased elements 101."
When the end comes and your world is shattered into a billion tiny bubbles - be they dimensional tesseracts or gaming groups - like Gubbinz says you don't really have the luxury of lounging around as you did, and having things drop into your lap. You need to modify your way of thinking and doing things, or drop out completely.
warboss wrote: Normally, I'd poo poo this type of huge change but D&D did pretty much the same thing with their most popular setting (forgotten realms) with the advent of 4th edition. Granted, WOTC didn't have to worry about invalidating folks' armies of minis but that type of huge shake up with a new edition for a popular and long running product line has precedent within the industry.
It also sort of happened with BattleTech. When the license went to Wizkids BTech became MechWarrikr: Dark Age with a new ruleset that invalidated the old game.
And WizKids proceeded to drive Battletech right into the ground.
Which is why its now licensed to Cataylst Game Labs and doing quite well now.
If half of the rumors are true, Me and the other local fantasy players are already considering going back to an older version to play. alot of playtesting will be involved to keep some of the new stuff but the oly other option is to quit.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: This is all a bunch of baseless crap, as is most of the stuff from warseer.
Couldn't agree more. Having a good reputation as a rumor monger(darnok and harry) doesn't mean you're right about everything. This reeks of when my 6 year old tells me a made up story. So over the top no one should believe it.
Maybe it is all false, but that'll say a lot about GW that so many of their customers will believe such a crazy move.
Personally, I think everything rumoured makes perfect sense from a disconnected and desperate business point of view, so have no problems believing that this is what's going to happen.
It's a new release from GW, so expectations aren't exactly high.
Rune Stonegrinder wrote: alot of playtesting will be involved to keep some of the new stuff but the oly other option is to quit.
Or look at another set of generic fantasy battle rules.
Spin it as you prefer, some people play warhammer because they actually like warhammer, from the armies to the lore. *gasp*
Armies and lore are different from the rules. What he's suggesting is using an adaptable generic ruleset that allows you to field whatever army you like. That way you can continue to use your models and still have a supported ruleset.
Warboss Gubbinz wrote:Just because a new edition arrives doesn't mean you have to pack your old one away and move to the latest and greatest. We've been treating GW models like new Cars or expensive computer hardware, enthusiasts in those hobbies switch to the latest and greatest because of enhanced features and function. There is some of that with GW product, shiny new model syndrome is an internal term at GW for a reason, gotta have a rules book to sell to coincide with that model.
If 9th is a whole different game that just derives from the fluff then treat it as such, continue to play 8th or 6th/7th. (To me it sounds like they are moving to a more warmahordes style of play?)
We could stand on a rooftop and scream this at the top of our lungs, but I wonder how many actually bother to listen? People recoil from old editions like they were rattlesnakes, and the overarching reason seems to be 'lack of support'. And since GW don't really fix or complete anything between editions, as far as I can tell - including by many folks coming out and saying it - 'support' seems to mean 'releasing new things to buy'. It's then with a little lurch of horror (just a little lurch) I realise just how twisted the gaming culture of GW is, that what you say is right, and that means Alan Merrett was right: GW fans abandon old editions because otherwise they can't keep up their hobby of buying GW products.
Warboss Gubbinz wrote:Thats a fair assessment, one of the reasons 40k and fantasy are/were so popular is you could take your army to any store that carried it and find a pickup game. It's still true for 40k but i don't think fantasy will have that luxury if the changes are as dramatic as they say. We may see folks folding into gaming groups more than pickup games which doesn't speak well for the line.
"Welcome to gaming outside the GW compound. Please deposit your feeding spoons in the receptacles provided. Following routine deprogramming you will have many training courses at your disposal including: basic networking in the internet age, 5+ year-old books are not poison, and multibased elements 101."
When the end comes and your world is shattered into a billion tiny bubbles - be they dimensional tesseracts or gaming groups - like Gubbinz says you don't really have the luxury of lounging around as you did, and having things drop into your lap. You need to modify your way of thinking and doing things, or drop out completely.
I think you need to fetch yourself a few buckets to catch all the drips of condescension coming off that post.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: This is all a bunch of baseless crap, as is most of the stuff from warseer.
Couldn't agree more. Having a good reputation as a rumor monger(darnok and harry) doesn't mean you're right about everything. This reeks of when my 6 year old tells me a made up story. So over the top no one should believe it.
So, what exactly is the point of the rumour tracker if not to gauge the veracity of said rumours. Hm?
The year: 2015. From out of space comes a runaway planet, hurtling between the Old World and the Morrsleib, unleashing cosmic destruction! Man's civilization is cast in ruin! Two thousand years later, the Old World is reborn. A strange new world rises from the old: a world of savagery, super science and sorcery.
But one man bursts his bonds to fight for justice! With his companions Nagash the Mok and Everqueen Alarielle, he pits his strength, his courage, and his fabulous Ghal Maraz against the forces of evil. He is Karl Franzarr, the Barbarian!
warboss wrote: Normally, I'd poo poo this type of huge change but D&D did pretty much the same thing with their most popular setting (forgotten realms) with the advent of 4th edition. Granted, WOTC didn't have to worry about invalidating folks' armies of minis but that type of huge shake up with a new edition for a popular and long running product line has precedent within the industry.
Well, to be fair, not only for 4th edition. The Forgotten Realms have been shaken up pretty badly more or less with every new D&D edition.
Very true. I remember the fall-out from the Pool of Radiance series of novels and how that impacted the entire game world.
The year: 2015. From out of space comes a runaway planet, hurtling between the Old World and the Morrsleib, unleashing cosmic destruction! Man's civilization is cast in ruin! Two thousand years later, the Old World is reborn. A strange new world rises from the old: a world of savagery, super science and sorcery.
But one man bursts his bonds to fight for justice! With his companions Nagash the Mok and Everqueen Alarielle, he pits his strength, his courage, and his fabulous Ghal Maraz against the forces of evil. He is Karl Franzarr, the Barbarian!
Nicely done. Have a round of Thundarrous applause on me.
We have been hearing that GW has been applying pressure on independent retailers to take more Fantasy Battle minis and encourage more customers to get into it. This has been done with a carrot for free WHFB goodies (which retailers love, for obvious reasons) if sales are good.
A cynical person might take that and the other rumours, and say GW is clearing the decks (warehouses) of existing models...
The end times causes a fracture of reality and splits reality into two separate timelines/universes/realities/bubbles/whatnot
Rules:
8th/ET continues with little support, after all these years, it's a pretty balanced edition I had hope that 9th would be viewed as more 8.5 with minor changes. ET seems to have done that already, just by changing the lord % and Khaine Magic options(player base in MW USA seems to accept the former but not the latter)
But 9th splits into the other reality while leaving the 8th/ET on it's own. Similar game with slightly different rules or maybe even the same. It wouldn't take much tweaking to change the format to a skirmish format.
Models:
More new models for 9th than 8th, however clam pack characters and pretty interchangeable. Rules included for all. This allows armies for both to be updated occasionally, instead of every 5 years or last century or when ever brets were done, digital editions can be updated instantly.
Goal: Develop a player base with 9th, when 10th comes it's more of an edition of 8th than 9th.
Spin it as you prefer, some people play warhammer because they actually like warhammer, from the armies to the lore. *gasp*
Armies and lore are different from the rules. What he's suggesting is using an adaptable generic ruleset that allows you to field whatever army you like. That way you can continue to use your models and still have a supported ruleset.
Thank you, sir. Took the words right out of my mouth. Have an(other) exalt.
Two addendums: For GW fans, the word 'supported' might have a slightly different definition than the one you're used to. It doesn't mean 'heaping new must-have models onto armies to scalp more money but dressing it up as 'character'' so much as it does 'making sure the game is well-written and elegant in the first place, and using any new editions to focus on fixing any problems that arise instead of adding new ones'
Also, if you can get over the shock of no casualty removal (oh the horror) and lack of half a dozen special roadbum... I mean rules for each individual model in a mass battle game, I'm convinced most of of you might prefer other rulesets. Happened to me when I moved from 40K to Epic.
Spin it as you prefer, some people play warhammer because they actually like warhammer, from the armies to the lore. *gasp*
Armies and lore are different from the rules. What he's suggesting is using an adaptable generic ruleset that allows you to field whatever army you like. That way you can continue to use your models and still have a supported ruleset.
Thank you, sir. Took the words right out of my mouth. Have an(other) exalt.
Two addendums: For GW fans, the word 'supported' might have a slightly different definition than the one you're used to. It doesn't mean 'heaping new must-have models onto armies to scalp more money but dressing it up as 'character'' so much as it does 'making sure the game is well-written and elegant in the first place, and using any new editions to focus on fixing any problems that arise instead of adding new ones'
Also, if you can get over the shock of no casualty removal (oh the horror) and lack of half a dozen special roadbum... I mean rules for each individual model in a mass battle game, I'm convinced most of of you might prefer other rulesets. Happened to me when I moved from 40K to Epic.
I've thoroughly enjoyed the handful of games of KoW I played. I've never understood the mindset whereby everything must have a billion special rules or the whole thing is bland. Silly.
Damn people, think. GW may temporarily put armies or units in limbo, but think of this a bit logically. Why invalidate/squat when you can instead monetize? Can't sell a $4 pamphlet-sized White Dwarf? Put new and improved, Dogs of War-style unit rules in it every other week for old units that got left behind and watch WD copies disappear (maybe even raise the cover price by a buck)! Got too many boxes of monsters or special characters sitting in the warhouse or on the shelves in your retail stores? Drop a digital-only dataslate for a few quid and watch that stock disappear from your balance sheet.
Writing rules is cheap. Digital downloads don't require trucks or warehouses. Keep the masses sated, bring in the coin. Mission Accomplished!
Warboss Gubbinz wrote:Just because a new edition arrives doesn't mean you have to pack your old one away and move to the latest and greatest. We've been treating GW models like new Cars or expensive computer hardware, enthusiasts in those hobbies switch to the latest and greatest because of enhanced features and function. There is some of that with GW product, shiny new model syndrome is an internal term at GW for a reason, gotta have a rules book to sell to coincide with that model.
If 9th is a whole different game that just derives from the fluff then treat it as such, continue to play 8th or 6th/7th. (To me it sounds like they are moving to a more warmahordes style of play?)
We could stand on a rooftop and scream this at the top of our lungs, but I wonder how many actually bother to listen? People recoil from old editions like they were rattlesnakes, and the overarching reason seems to be 'lack of support'. And since GW don't really fix or complete anything between editions, as far as I can tell - including by many folks coming out and saying it - 'support' seems to mean 'releasing new things to buy'. It's then with a little lurch of horror (just a little lurch) I realise just how twisted the gaming culture of GW is, that what you say is right, and that means Alan Merrett was right: GW fans abandon old editions because otherwise they can't keep up their hobby of buying GW products.
Warboss Gubbinz wrote:Thats a fair assessment, one of the reasons 40k and fantasy are/were so popular is you could take your army to any store that carried it and find a pickup game. It's still true for 40k but i don't think fantasy will have that luxury if the changes are as dramatic as they say. We may see folks folding into gaming groups more than pickup games which doesn't speak well for the line.
"Welcome to gaming outside the GW compound. Please deposit your feeding spoons in the receptacles provided. Following routine deprogramming you will have many training courses at your disposal including: basic networking in the internet age, 5+ year-old books are not poison, and multibased elements 101."
When the end comes and your world is shattered into a billion tiny bubbles - be they dimensional tesseracts or gaming groups - like Gubbinz says you don't really have the luxury of lounging around as you did, and having things drop into your lap. You need to modify your way of thinking and doing things, or drop out completely.
Get off your high horse. Not everybody has the luxury of a gaming group that they know will stick to an old edition of that's the consensus. Some people rely on pick up games, and if a new edition comes out, pick up games in an old edition because almost non occurring. When was the last time you had a pick up game of 7th? Or Mordheim? Or epic, BFG, Necromunda...
You can say over and over 'a new edition doesn't invalidate an old edition' but for some people, it pretty much does.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: This is all a bunch of baseless crap, as is most of the stuff from warseer.
Couldn't agree more. Having a good reputation as a rumor monger(darnok and harry) doesn't mean you're right about everything. This reeks of when my 6 year old tells me a made up story. So over the top no one should believe it.
So, what exactly is the point of the rumour tracker if not to gauge the veracity of said rumours. Hm?
So they are both 100% in the rumor tracker? Yeah didn't think so. So by deduction that means EVERYTHING they said may not be correct or am I missing something?
Does anyone know the historical survivability of game systems that undergo wholesale rules gutting? I am trying to think of success stories and the only one that marginally comes up would be the change from 2nd to 3rd in 40K.
These rumored changes being tossed around seem more akin to thinking that in order to save the village, you have to burn the village. The problem with that is that GW has definite history of not being able to build villages. Sure, they can make some gorgeous houses and storefronts, but to combine all that into a working and thriving village...they don't have the mentality for that.
I also fail to see how a wholesale system change will drive in new customers. If your new system will nuke existing players armies, or just portions of their armies, you are going to drive away some portion of your existing player base. Many vets are rightfully going to be pissed that GW will say "that $$$ you spent to play the game yesterday is not transferable to the game we are asking you to spend $$$ on to learn to play today."
They are going to have to bring in new players. GW doesn't advertise. GW doesn't have a group of enthusiastic volunteer gamers to travel to FLGS to demo. GW doesn't have any ability to convince FLGS owners they should take a risk on a new system when they likely have dozens of SKUs and hundreds of dollars in product that have just been invalidated.
Making a new Fantasy succeed is actually going to be harder for GW than if the same system was put out by a brand new startup company. A new startup doesn't have the years of bad baggage floating around with it.
That's what makes this rumor so crazy. Are they seriously thinking that they can invalidate huge swathes of people's armies and that they'll just cheerfully say how it's good because it means they get to buy more "jewel like objects of magic and wonder" to replace them?
I really think they're kind of screwed. If they don't change enough, it's still stagnant. If they change it up a lot like these rumors indicate, it could breathe new life into it but they're going to piss off a lot of people in the process.
Question is if pissing off a lot of your customers in the short term is worth having a potentially better game in the long run? It could be that they're thinking longterm for the first time in basically forever and realize that they're going to lose a good chunk of people, but it's for the best because the game has to change.
Even by GW standards I find it incredibly hard to believe that they think people will be okay with radical changes just because they are "GW hobbyists" and will buy anything GW produces just because GW produces it. They can't be that delusional or think their customers are that stupid.
Rumor: GW is going to release a codex with only two units in it!
Community: Total BS, can't be.
Knights are released.
Community: Oh.
Rumor: The FOC will be removed from 40k, you can put on the table pretty much whatever you like.
Community: Total BS, can't be!
7th Ed is released.
Community: Oh.
Rumor: WHFB will be changed in a fashion that allows GW to almost completely axe any upkeep cost, eliminate the used-models-market and remove the need for background, and well-defined, planned codices.
Community: Total BS, can't be!!1111!oneeleveneinseinundeinzig!
...6 months remaining...
I've thoroughly enjoyed the handful of games of KoW I played. I've never understood the mindset whereby everything must have a billion special rules or the whole thing is bland. Silly.
I've said it before: GW seems to have tricked people - or they've tricked themselves - into thinking that most of the fluff resides in the rules, rather than in the minis or, y'know, the fluff. Whereas other games put it in it's proper place, for the most part, and (more than) make up for lack of special unit and character rules by having superior general, tactical, smooth as a baby's bum rules and mechanics.
Like the thing I mentioned, when I started Epic: Armageddon I was faintly horrified that I couldn't equip SM captains with half a dozen types of pistol or power fists or extra saves or what have you, and tac squads only had one heavy weapon stat available to them and yadda yadda yadda. When I actually played, I realised that all that crap didn't matter when you were 'commanding' an army (an SM company+ as a matter of course) and were invited to pull off initiative retention, airstrikes, flanking maneuvers, crossfires, supporting actions, etc. etc. Compared to playing most of the game beforehand, tooling up your list, micromanaging individuals, for a line-up-and-shoot with autotriggered speshul roolz. ("Hurray! If my Wolf Lord is on the table at all, half my army gets wolfblood wolfzerker wolfrage of wolfiness wolf. I so clever...")
I'm getting a hankering for Epic right now. Anyway. That little revelation from GW itself prepared me when I looked outside and saw that most mass battle or company-level games worked along these lines. So it was a pleasant surprise rather than a nasty shock. I dunno what it was like for you guys jumping straight from GW into Mantic's KoW (if that was the case) but since you're here extolling it's virtues, I guess whatever trauma from that shift wasn't too difficult to get over either.
Also, the word wolf has no meaning to me any more, right now. Wolf wolf wolf. It's starting to sound like an obscure type of artisanal bread. One sourdough wolf, please...
I feel sorry for veteran players who could be affected by this...
BUT
I can see where GW are coming from.
From all accounts, Fantasy is dying on its feet. Continuing a failed trend and giving us version 8.1 is unlikely to arrest this decline.
Streamlining is a sensible plan to me. Fantasy, in my view, has enough dead wood as it is. To be honest, I'd rather see 6 well supported factions, with regular updates and models, than the constant bloat of having to wait 6 years for a new wood elf book.
Also, it could be that this new version allows GW to produce a tight, well balanced set of rules.
Eldarain wrote: It's crazy how new releases and edition updates from GW are met with dread and worry.
That's not how it's supposed to work.
I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that it's all unfounded and shady rumors. If GW announced right now there were major changes coming to WHFB in the next six months, and they're going to explain the reasons and give previews in White Dwarf (hey it's a reason to buy it!) and offer a free document online to help you transition, it would be met maybe with slightly more regard. A smart company would be interacting with its customers very frequently right now, answering questions about what the changes mean, how it will affect armies (e.g. "What happens to my Lizardmen?" "Well, they won't be a full army anymore, but we'll have rules to let you keep playing with what you have so you won't be left out"), and giving some insight to their thought process behind why they're doing it and why it's beneficial.
Instead, they likely don't plan on saying anything about it until it's on the cusp of release, and then it's "Surprise! There's a new edition of Warhammer Fantasy coming, and it's going to change up EVERYTHING! Aren't you excited at the new stuff you get to buy?"
That's the biggest thing. People have to rely on rumors that may or may not be true because the company wants to keep this veil of secrecy around everything until the last minute and then surprise people with it.
TBH I would be pretty pissy if the rumours prove largely true, as I just bought £350 qorth of Dark elves gaetting back into fantasy with Khaine only to find in 6 months, my dark elves cease to exist in their current forum and 40% of my models are now largely paperweights.
This doesn't create return custom, especially after an xmas where younger folk will maybe have gotten stuff for xmas, and the £200 of stuff is now old and needing replaced, I can see a lot of new fantasy players killed in the infancy.
However I am also reading these rumours with a lot of salt. A few folk I have spoken to agree with my thoughts that the rumoured skirmish game that was 'deffo coming out at games day 2014" s mixing in a bit with 9th edition rumours and its getting a bit skewed, round based and skirmish sized games being whats catching my eye there.
however if my army is hooped, ill ebay at massive loss and buy more bolt action instead.
Eldarain wrote: It's crazy how new releases and edition updates from GW are met with dread and worry.
That's not how it's supposed to work.
I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that it's all unfounded and shady rumors. If GW announced right now there were major changes coming to WHFB in the next six months, and they're going to explain the reasons and give previews in White Dwarf (hey it's a reason to buy it!) and offer a free document online to help you transition, it would be met maybe with slightly more regard. A smart company would be interacting with its customers very frequently right now, answering questions about what the changes mean, how it will affect armies (e.g. "What happens to my Lizardmen?" "Well, they won't be a full army anymore, but we'll have rules to let you keep playing with what you have so you won't be left out"), and giving some insight to their thought process behind why they're doing it and why it's beneficial.
Instead, they likely don't plan on saying anything about it until it's on the cusp of release, and then it's "Surprise! There's a new edition of Warhammer Fantasy coming, and it's going to change up EVERYTHING! Aren't you excited at the new stuff you get to buy?"
That's the biggest thing. People have to rely on rumors that may or may not be true because the company wants to keep this veil of secrecy around everything until the last minute and then surprise people with it.
This is exactly what pisses me off about GW. Look at Corvus Belli, we knew about 3rd Edition of Infinity at least 6 months early, and got previews through that time, and knew that it was generally just small tweaks to rules, not a huge shift. The lack of communication and transparancy is bad enough when it's an army book release or a new edition, but this seems much much bigger than that and yet we haven't heard anything official. And probably won't for 5 months and 3 weeks, until we see shaky white dwarf photos saturated in flash and blur.
Vermis wrote:
When the end comes and your world is shattered into a billion tiny bubbles - be they dimensional tesseracts or gaming groups - like Gubbinz says you don't really have the luxury of lounging around as you did, and having things drop into your lap. You need to modify your way of thinking and doing things, or drop out completely.
Get off your high horse. Not everybody has the luxury of a gaming group that they know will stick to an old edition of that's the consensus. Some people rely on pick up games, and if a new edition comes out, pick up games in an old edition because almost non occurring. When was the last time you had a pick up game of 7th? Or Mordheim? Or epic, BFG, Necromunda...
You can say over and over 'a new edition doesn't invalidate an old edition' but for some people, it pretty much does.
When the end comes and your gaming world is shattered into a billion tiny bubbles, you won't really have the luxury of lashing out at people and telling them to get off their high horse. You'll need to modify your way of thinking and doing things, or drop out completely.
If it turns out to be the latter case, then I'm sorry, but it's not my fault and raging at me won't change the fact.
Also, which 7th? I dropped out of 40K in fifth and WHFB in 6th. I've never played Mordheim, and didn't care too much for Necromunda. But I've been told there's a group nearby seeing a resurgence in Epic, and in any case there's another group nearby that's willing to have a bash at anything, if you have the minis.
See, my situation was that I was a 'vet' at the local GW, until us vets were pushed out as part of company policy, and specialist games were banned in the store around the same time. For a then-GW fan who - as mentioned - had just been wowed by Epic, it was some gut punch; I'd also say it was a pretty explicit invalidation, and not just of specific armies or games we had. We vets then had to form our own groups and introduce ourselves into others, in order to play at all, let alone play the games we liked; and in the process were exposed to other great groups, games and opportunities that took the sting off if our first preferences weren't immediately catered for. Some of them even became our new first preferences.
Eldarain wrote: It's crazy how new releases and edition updates from GW are met with dread and worry.
That's not how it's supposed to work.
I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that it's all unfounded and shady rumors. If GW announced right now there were major changes coming to WHFB in the next six months, and they're going to explain the reasons and give previews in White Dwarf (hey it's a reason to buy it!) and offer a free document online to help you transition, it would be met maybe with slightly more regard. A smart company would be interacting with its customers very frequently right now, answering questions about what the changes mean, how it will affect armies (e.g. "What happens to my Lizardmen?" "Well, they won't be a full army anymore, but we'll have rules to let you keep playing with what you have so you won't be left out"), and giving some insight to their thought process behind why they're doing it and why it's beneficial.
Instead, they likely don't plan on saying anything about it until it's on the cusp of release, and then it's "Surprise! There's a new edition of Warhammer Fantasy coming, and it's going to change up EVERYTHING! Aren't you excited at the new stuff you get to buy?"
That's the biggest thing. People have to rely on rumors that may or may not be true because the company wants to keep this veil of secrecy around everything until the last minute and then surprise people with it.
This is exactly what pisses me off about GW. Look at Corvus Belli, we knew about 3rd Edition of Infinity at least 6 months early, and got previews through that time, and knew that it was generally just small tweaks to rules, not a huge shift. The lack of communication and transparancy is bad enough when it's an army book release or a new edition, but this seems much much bigger than that and yet we haven't heard anything official. And probably won't for 5 months and 3 weeks, until we see shaky white dwarf photos saturated in flash and blur.
Exactly. The correct way to have sweeping changes is to give constant information and (gasp!) feedback and at least pretend that you care about your customers making a smooth transition and not dropping you like a hot potato out of fear. The incorrect way is to pretend everything is fine so people will keep buying stuff that you know is going to be obsolete, and then one week make the sweeping announcement when you've already decided what you're doing and expect everyone to just fall in line and accept it.
The way they handle delivering any sort of information at all borders on outright disrespect for the customer.
Vermis wrote:
When the end comes and your world is shattered into a billion tiny bubbles - be they dimensional tesseracts or gaming groups - like Gubbinz says you don't really have the luxury of lounging around as you did, and having things drop into your lap. You need to modify your way of thinking and doing things, or drop out completely.
Get off your high horse. Not everybody has the luxury of a gaming group that they know will stick to an old edition of that's the consensus. Some people rely on pick up games, and if a new edition comes out, pick up games in an old edition because almost non occurring. When was the last time you had a pick up game of 7th? Or Mordheim? Or epic, BFG, Necromunda...
You can say over and over 'a new edition doesn't invalidate an old edition' but for some people, it pretty much does.
When the end comes and your gaming world is shattered into a billion tiny bubbles, you won't really have the luxury of lashing out at people and telling them to get off their high horse. You'll need to modify your way of thinking and doing things, or drop out completely.
If it turns out to be the latter case, then I'm sorry, but it's not my fault and raging at me won't change the fact.
Also, which 7th? I dropped out of 40K in fifth and WHFB in 6th. I've never played Mordheim, and didn't care too much for Necromunda. But I've been told there's a group nearby seeing a resurgence in Epic, and in any case there's another group nearby that's willing to have a bash at anything, if you have the minis.
See, my situation was that I was a 'vet' at the local GW, until us vets were pushed out as part of company policy, and specialist games were banned in the store around the same time. We had to form our own groups and introduce ourselves into others, in order to play at all, let alone play the games we liked; and in the process were exposed to other great groups, games and opportunities that took the sting off if our first preferences weren't immediately catered for. Some of them even became our new first preferences.
It was either that, or drop out completely.
I get what you're saying and you do pose valid points but the tone of your post was very very condescending and rhats why I 'raged' at you. But I probably will drop out completely. What GW don't understand it seems is there's a lot more competition these days, a lot of it superior. There's other, better, safer companies I can give my money to.
If WFB turns into a smaller scale game with round bases, no more musicians and cool new models, there's every chance I'll buy some. At the moment there is zero chance of me buying any WFB even though I quite like Skaven, Ogres and Lizardmen because I'd have nobody to play against and an army is a massive investment of money and time.
I recently bought some Death Company - as someone with a Tyranid army - because I like their fluff. They feel unique and I have enough Space Marine bits knocking about to outfit them how I like. You can't really say that for anything in WFB as most of the units therein are as without depth as Termagants. No one buy Termagants because they're fun to build or have awesome cool fluff.
I think this, if true, would be a good move by GW in principle. Whether or not they do the right thing with their blank canvas is another matter.
Vermis wrote: When the end comes and your world is shattered into a billion tiny bubbles - be they dimensional tesseracts or gaming groups - like Gubbinz says you don't really have the luxury of lounging around as you did, and having things drop into your lap. You need to modify your way of thinking and doing things, or drop out completely.
Get off your high horse. Not everybody has the luxury of a gaming group that they know will stick to an old edition of that's the consensus. Some people rely on pick up games, and if a new edition comes out, pick up games in an old edition because almost non occurring. When was the last time you had a pick up game of 7th? Or Mordheim? Or epic, BFG, Necromunda...
You can say over and over 'a new edition doesn't invalidate an old edition' but for some people, it pretty much does.
When the end comes and your gaming world is shattered into a billion tiny bubbles, you won't really have the luxury of lashing out at people and telling them to get off their high horse. You'll need to modify your way of thinking and doing things, or drop out completely.
If it turns out to be the latter case, then I'm sorry, but it's not my fault and raging at me won't change the fact.
Also, which 7th? I dropped out of 40K in fifth and WHFB in 6th. I've never played Mordheim, and didn't care too much for Necromunda. But I've been told there's a group nearby seeing a resurgence in Epic, and in any case there's another group nearby that's willing to have a bash at anything, if you have the minis.
See, my situation was that I was a 'vet' at the local GW, until us vets were pushed out as part of company policy, and specialist games were banned in the store around the same time. We had to form our own groups and introduce ourselves into others, in order to play at all, let alone play the games we liked; and in the process were exposed to other great groups, games and opportunities that took the sting off if our first preferences weren't immediately catered for. Some of them even became our new first preferences.
It was either that, or drop out completely.
I get what you're saying and you do pose valid points but the tone of your post was very very condescending and rhats why I 'raged' at you. But I probably will drop out completely. What GW don't understand it seems is there's a lot more competition these days, a lot of it superior. There's other, better, safer companies I can give my money to.
But those companies (pick 1+):
A) Don't have the same aesthetic in the miniatures B) Are "skirmish" games not large-scale games C) Aren't grimdark fantasy/sci-fi with Empire/Elves/Vampire Counts/Fantasy Space Marines/etc. D) Don't have as much fluff/background E) "Look like crap" due to item A above
Vermis wrote:
When the end comes and your world is shattered into a billion tiny bubbles - be they dimensional tesseracts or gaming groups - like Gubbinz says you don't really have the luxury of lounging around as you did, and having things drop into your lap. You need to modify your way of thinking and doing things, or drop out completely.
Get off your high horse. Not everybody has the luxury of a gaming group that they know will stick to an old edition of that's the consensus. Some people rely on pick up games, and if a new edition comes out, pick up games in an old edition because almost non occurring. When was the last time you had a pick up game of 7th? Or Mordheim? Or epic, BFG, Necromunda...
You can say over and over 'a new edition doesn't invalidate an old edition' but for some people, it pretty much does.
When the end comes and your gaming world is shattered into a billion tiny bubbles, you won't really have the luxury of lashing out at people and telling them to get off their high horse. You'll need to modify your way of thinking and doing things, or drop out completely.
If it turns out to be the latter case, then I'm sorry, but it's not my fault and raging at me won't change the fact.
Also, which 7th? I dropped out of 40K in fifth and WHFB in 6th. I've never played Mordheim, and didn't care too much for Necromunda. But I've been told there's a group nearby seeing a resurgence in Epic, and in any case there's another group nearby that's willing to have a bash at anything, if you have the minis.
See, my situation was that I was a 'vet' at the local GW, until us vets were pushed out as part of company policy, and specialist games were banned in the store around the same time. We had to form our own groups and introduce ourselves into others, in order to play at all, let alone play the games we liked; and in the process were exposed to other great groups, games and opportunities that took the sting off if our first preferences weren't immediately catered for. Some of them even became our new first preferences.
It was either that, or drop out completely.
I get what you're saying and you do pose valid points but the tone of your post was very very condescending and rhats why I 'raged' at you. But I probably will drop out completely. What GW don't understand it seems is there's a lot more competition these days, a lot of it superior. There's other, better, safer companies I can give my money to.
But those companies (pick 1+):
A) Don't have the same aesthetic in the miniatures
B) Are "skirmish" games not large-scale games
C) Aren't grimdark fantasy/sci-fi with Empire/Elves/Vampire Counts/Fantasy Space Marines/etc.
D) Don't have as much fluff/background
E) "Look like crap" due to item A above
No, I agree. I don't want to drop Fantasy, because of those reasons. But if GW force my hand then other companies will get more of my money, simple as that. I'd drop GW completely but I'm heavily invested in 30k now so I can't really.
Eldarain wrote: It's crazy how new releases and edition updates from GW are met with dread and worry.
That's not how it's supposed to work.
I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that it's all unfounded and shady rumors. If GW announced right now there were major changes coming to WHFB in the next six months, and they're going to explain the reasons and give previews in White Dwarf (hey it's a reason to buy it!) and offer a free document online to help you transition, it would be met maybe with slightly more regard. A smart company would be interacting with its customers very frequently right now, answering questions about what the changes mean, how it will affect armies (e.g. "What happens to my Lizardmen?" "Well, they won't be a full army anymore, but we'll have rules to let you keep playing with what you have so you won't be left out"), and giving some insight to their thought process behind why they're doing it and why it's beneficial.
Instead, they likely don't plan on saying anything about it until it's on the cusp of release, and then it's "Surprise! There's a new edition of Warhammer Fantasy coming, and it's going to change up EVERYTHING! Aren't you excited at the new stuff you get to buy?"
That's the biggest thing. People have to rely on rumors that may or may not be true because the company wants to keep this veil of secrecy around everything until the last minute and then surprise people with it.
This is exactly what pisses me off about GW. Look at Corvus Belli, we knew about 3rd Edition of Infinity at least 6 months early, and got previews through that time, and knew that it was generally just small tweaks to rules, not a huge shift. The lack of communication and transparancy is bad enough when it's an army book release or a new edition, but this seems much much bigger than that and yet we haven't heard anything official. And probably won't for 5 months and 3 weeks, until we see shaky white dwarf photos saturated in flash and blur.
Exactly. The correct way to have sweeping changes is to give constant information and (gasp!) feedback and at least pretend that you care about your customers making a smooth transition and not dropping you like a hot potato out of fear. The incorrect way is to pretend everything is fine so people will keep buying stuff that you know is going to be obsolete, and then one week make the sweeping announcement when you've already decided what you're doing and expect everyone to just fall in line and accept it.
The way they handle delivering any sort of information at all borders on outright disrespect for the customer.
I think GW could do a better job with promotion, but let's approach this with a tiny bit of intelligence. GW would be shooting itself in the foot by making announcements about sweeping changes and thereby causing their already weak WFB sales to drop to ZERO for the next six months. There is a time at which announcements are appropriate, but we aren't there yet.
Infinity is a completely different case, and those differences should be obvious.
Sorry Wayne, don't know if serious. It's hard to tell.
ImAGeek: I know I can be a snot at times (a lot of times) and often regret it too, but the more I compare GW to other companies and games, the more I'm convinced that it's a toxic, pants-on-head-crazy business/customer relationship and gaming culture. And all the worse because so many fans accept it as the norm. I know it's very convenient - it was convenient for me - but sooner or later GW is going to do some big thing, or a bunch of little things, that'll negate that and make their games untenable for someone. And lately it seems GW have been ramping up on those 'things'.
So I get too vocal about GW, but because I feel GW gamers need to be shown some kind of lifeboat (or at least given a little warning) before they jump (or are pushed) overboard... if you'll pardon the melodramatic overtones. "Don't like the way those rules have gone? Here's a dandy little set that might do you! Your gors and trolls and demigryphs slot right in here. Smaller chance of unbalancing upheavals and invalidations, too." Gaming outside GW stores or games... often takes a bit more work, maybe even a few less sessions, and sadly some gamers' situations don't allow it; but for those who manage it, I feel in some ways it's more stable, and just richer.
warboss wrote: Normally, I'd poo poo this type of huge change but D&D did pretty much the same thing with their most popular setting (forgotten realms) with the advent of 4th edition. Granted, WOTC didn't have to worry about invalidating folks' armies of minis but that type of huge shake up with a new edition for a popular and long running product line has precedent within the industry.
Well, to be fair, not only for 4th edition. The Forgotten Realms have been shaken up pretty badly more or less with every new D&D edition.
Very true. I remember the fall-out from the Pool of Radiance series of novels and how that impacted the entire game world.
I thought that was the horrid Avatar Trilogy, not Pool. Pool was off the very good gold box SSI game.
Vermis wrote: Sorry Wayne, don't know if serious. It's hard to tell.
ImAGeek: I know I can be a snot at times (a lot of times) and often regret it too, but the more I compare GW to other companies and games, the more I'm convinced that it's a toxic, pants-on-head-crazy business/customer relationship and gaming culture. And all the worse because so many fans accept it as the norm. I know it's very convenient - it was convenient for me - but sooner or later GW is going to do some big thing, or a bunch of little things, that'll negate that and make their games untenable for someone. And lately it seems GW have been ramping up on those 'things'.
So I get too vocal about GW, but because I feel GW gamers need to be shown some kind of lifeboat before they jump (or are pushed) overboard... if you'll pardon the melodramatic overtones. "Don't like the way those rules have gone? Here's a dandy little set that might do you! Your gors and trolls and demigryphs slot right in here. Small chance of unbalancing upheavals and invalidations, too." Gaming outside GW stores or games... often takes a bit more work, maybe even a few less sessions, and sadly some gamers' situations don't allow it; but for those who manage it, I feel in some ways it's more stable, and just richer.
I'm being serious; I think GW's style of "surprise, here's this new stuff now" is pretty awful, and they should be announcing things now and answering questions and getting feedback.
Rumor: GW is going to release a codex with only two units in it!
Community: Total BS, can't be.
Knights are released.
Community: Oh.
Rumor: The FOC will be removed from 40k, you can put on the table pretty much whatever you like.
Community: Total BS, can't be!
7th Ed is released.
Community: Oh.
Rumor: WHFB will be changed in a fashion that allows GW to almost completely axe any upkeep cost, eliminate the used-models-market and remove the need for background, and well-defined, planned codices.
Community: Total BS, can't be!!1111!oneeleveneinseinundeinzig!
...6 months remaining...
You should add in the hundred of rumors that WEREN'T true.
7th ed
Consolidate into.combat, ignore cover changing, sidebars, percentages etc...
Sisters hardcover codex
The chaos legions book rumor
Fantasy
Brets getting a new book every other month for the last year
From all accounts, Fantasy is dying on its feet. Continuing a failed trend and giving us version 8.1 is unlikely to arrest this decline.
Streamlining is a sensible plan to me. Fantasy, in my view, has enough dead wood as it is. To be honest, I'd rather see 6 well supported factions, with regular updates and models, than the constant bloat of having to wait 6 years for a new wood elf book.
Also, it could be that this new version allows GW to produce a tight, well balanced set of rules.
Yeah, I think they've played just about every other card they could. They've moved most everything to plastic, created new units and giant kits, and have used the rules to encourage people to have larger armies. But they're just about tapped out on that stuff, even as they've made the barrier to entry taller and increased the number of SKUs they have to manage. Mild tweaks paired with additional bloat just isn't going to reverse the decline.
And I still think that the notion that "everything is invalidated!!!" will prove to be untrue. There will undoubtedly be some pain, but I suspect that plenty of old minis will still be hitting the tabletop.
The year: 2015. From out of space comes a runaway planet, hurtling between the Old World and the Morrsleib, unleashing cosmic destruction! Man's civilization is cast in ruin! Two thousand years later, the Old World is reborn. A strange new world rises from the old: a world of savagery, super science and sorcery.
But one man bursts his bonds to fight for justice! With his companions Nagash the Mok and Everqueen Alarielle, he pits his strength, his courage, and his fabulous Ghal Maraz against the forces of evil. He is Karl Franzarr, the Barbarian!
Rumor: GW is going to release a codex with only two units in it!
Community: Total BS, can't be.
Knights are released.
Community: Oh.
Rumor: The FOC will be removed from 40k, you can put on the table pretty much whatever you like.
Community: Total BS, can't be!
7th Ed is released.
Community: Oh.
Rumor: WHFB will be changed in a fashion that allows GW to almost completely axe any upkeep cost, eliminate the used-models-market and remove the need for background, and well-defined, planned codices.
Community: Total BS, can't be!!1111!oneeleveneinseinundeinzig!
...6 months remaining...
You should add in the hundred of rumors that WEREN'T true.
7th ed
Consolidate into.combat, ignore cover changing, sidebars, percentages etc...
Sisters hardcover codex
The chaos legions book rumor
Fantasy
Brets getting a new book every other month for the last year
Also, the rumor that the FOC is gone is clearly false. You have the option to not use it, but the primary method of play still uses the FOC and none of the tournaments allow unbound.
Rumor: GW is going to release a codex with only two units in it!
Community: Total BS, can't be.
Knights are released.
Community: Oh.
Rumor: The FOC will be removed from 40k, you can put on the table pretty much whatever you like.
Community: Total BS, can't be!
7th Ed is released.
Community: Oh.
Rumor: WHFB will be changed in a fashion that allows GW to almost completely axe any upkeep cost, eliminate the used-models-market and remove the need for background, and well-defined, planned codices.
Community: Total BS, can't be!!1111!oneeleveneinseinundeinzig!
...6 months remaining...
You should add in the hundred of rumors that WEREN'T true.
7th ed
Consolidate into.combat, ignore cover changing, sidebars, percentages etc...
Sisters hardcover codex
The chaos legions book rumor
Fantasy
Brets getting a new book every other month for the last year
But those are more minor rumors that end up being bunk; they generally don't have the best rumor mongers backing them up (and a lot are people just guessing at GW's path).
Now, I don't think you have to take this stuff as gospel, but I think dismissing it as lamentation of jaded fans is a bit silly. These rumors make a lot of sense. Like John and gorgon have said, what other options does GW have?
gorgon wrote: And I still think that the notion that "everything is invalidated!!!" will prove to be untrue. There will undoubtedly be some pain, but I suspect that plenty of old minis will still be hitting the tabletop.
I think the rumors are very clear:
1. massive changes to fluff and setting
2. minimal changes to the rules engine
3. all existing Army Books remain valid for play
If you have an Old World army, you can play as you always have, Dark Elves against Chaos Dorfs; Lizardmen in Kislev; Egyptian undead in the Norse tundra; and so on. Except the rules will be somewhat cleaner than what we have today.
At some point, Grimdark Army Books will release that players can evolve their armies to follow, or buy appropriately Grimdark models for.
Old World armies can and will play against Grimdark armies under the new edition, much like how Warmachine battles Hordes.
9th Edition isn't the issue. 10th Edition is where we should see GW Squat the Old World; however, as 10th will still be an evolution of 9th, which would have been a tweak of 8th, Old World armies should still be playable. Probably only need a $50 Ravening Hordes-like dataslate to carry on if you're not buying the appropriate Grimdark Army Book.
gorgon wrote: And I still think that the notion that "everything is invalidated!!!" will prove to be untrue. There will undoubtedly be some pain, but I suspect that plenty of old minis will still be hitting the tabletop.
I think the rumors are very clear:
1. massive changes to fluff and setting
2. minimal changes to the rules engine
3. all existing Army Books remain valid for play
If you have an Old World army, you can play as you always have, Dark Elves against Chaos Dorfs; Lizardmen in Kislev; Egyptian undead in the Norse tundra; and so on. Except the rules will be somewhat cleaner than what we have today.
At some point, Grimdark Army Books will release that players can evolve their armies to follow, or buy appropriately Grimdark models for.
Old World armies can and will play against Grimdark armies under the new edition, much like how Warmachine battles Hordes.
9th Edition isn't the issue. 10th Edition is where we should see GW Squat the Old World; however, as 10th will still be an evolution of 9th, which would have been a tweak of 8th, Old World armies should still be playable. Probably only need a $50 Ravening Hordes-like dataslate to carry on if you're not buying the appropriate Grimdark Army Book.
The Words.
Right out of my mouth.
Several posters keep mentioning how armies and swathes of models will be canned and squatted. None of the more reliable rumormongers have said any such thing. It's just the chaff that's trying to build up clicks to their blogs and websites that are spewing that bull.
gorgon wrote: And I still think that the notion that "everything is invalidated!!!" will prove to be untrue. There will undoubtedly be some pain, but I suspect that plenty of old minis will still be hitting the tabletop.
I think the rumors are very clear:
1. massive changes to fluff and setting
2. minimal changes to the rules engine
3. all existing Army Books remain valid for play
If you have an Old World army, you can play as you always have, Dark Elves against Chaos Dorfs; Lizardmen in Kislev; Egyptian undead in the Norse tundra; and so on. Except the rules will be somewhat cleaner than what we have today.
At some point, Grimdark Army Books will release that players can evolve their armies to follow, or buy appropriately Grimdark models for.
Old World armies can and will play against Grimdark armies under the new edition, much like how Warmachine battles Hordes.
9th Edition isn't the issue. 10th Edition is where we should see GW Squat the Old World; however, as 10th will still be an evolution of 9th, which would have been a tweak of 8th, Old World armies should still be playable. Probably only need a $50 Ravening Hordes-like dataslate to carry on if you're not buying the appropriate Grimdark Army Book.
The Words.
Right out of my mouth.
Several posters keep mentioning how armies and swathes of models will be canned and squatted. None of the more reliable rumormongers have said any such thing. It's just the chaff that's trying to build up clicks to their blogs and websites that are spewing that bull.
Honestly, it's starting to sound like a parallel skirmish game using WHFB models to try and edge into the skirmish-based market. But once people have enough models they can stick them in movement trays and push them around in a mass-battle game.
The current game doesn't work well at a smaller scale, because units are designed and balanced for larger games where people have the variety of tools to deal with them. Bring 3 ethereal units or a demon prince to a 1,000 point game and see how well your opponents can deal with them, for instance.
But build a skirmish game that can be run using WHFB models and you're off to the races. It helps people get into the game, and increases the value of your IP. And if you keep your mass-battle game running alongside it then it encourages people to buy more for their armies to play this larger scale game. More importantly, you can compete with both mass battle games and Warmahordes-style skirmish games without cannibalizing your own sales, because the models port over between the two.
What I *DO NOT* see is GW negating people's entire armies. That won't happen. They want us to buy new stuff, but they don't want to abandon the investment that ties many to the game.
What I *DO NOT* see is GW negating people's entire armies. That won't happen. They want us to buy new stuff, but they don't want to abandon the investment that ties many to the game.
Yeah they will, I was around for 3rd ed 40k when they nuked Squats, and Genestealer cults, and AM from codex imperialis, as well as Harlies.
As well as the corresponding warhammer fantasy where we had Raving hordes until a new book was made.
I half expected it every other edition. We've been too complacent.
I can't see them scaling to both with how things are currently priced and boxed. What would the idea be, that you buy a box of 10 guys and can use 10 in a skirmish, but need 20-30 for the mass game?
You'd still need to buy several different boxes of troops, unless GW's idea of skirmish is vastly different than everyone else's (which isn't outside the realm of possibility), so you're still paying a lot just you don't necessarily have to buy multiples of the same box to make one unit. It'd basically go closer to 40k without the vehicles.
The more I think about this, the more I think I see some flawed logic implicit in this change. Even if it doesn't turn out to be true (and I sincerely hope for all of the fans and existing players of WHFB that it is not), the fact is that the proposition is believable when faced with the track record of modern GW.
1. Someone mentioned in another thread about the second hand market damaging GW's sales. In one fell stroke, you eliminate any possibility of anyone selling their old miniatures and that impacting the sales of your new lines, and all of your veteran players must discard their existing miniatures to collect the new if they want to play.
2. Sub-ins for GW games are becoming increasingly popular, fantasy 'dwarves' and 'orcs' are ten-a-penny, easy to get from elsewhere and easy to use in place of GW minis. Historical minis sub in easily for the human lines. Mantic have made a game that is faster to play, smarter, more tactical than WFB and costs a fraction of the price. Merrett and co. must absolutely despise these freeloaders on GW's own ideas.
This leads to..
3. Creating new 'fantasy' creatures that are defendable as their own creations, away from standard fantasy tropes. Everyone loves SM right? So make a human faction resemble them. IP is easier to defend, rather than treating the Chapterhouse case as a wake-up call, a slap to the face and wallet which might make them actually realise their product lines and their place within the industry, they will turn instead back to the 'fortress wall and moat' of building separation between the 'GW hobby' and everything else.
This, if it comes to pass, will show more than anything else what respect GW has for its fan base.
The only thing that throws me is the notion of round bases. That makes no sense based on the history of Fantasy.
However, the idea of a "skirmish" whereby you only need one box for a unit is a smart one. The idea of building lots and lots of very expensive wound counters needs to go away.
1,000 pt games with a higher minimum unit count would help here, as would removal of outnumbering, ranks and horde bonuses. If WFB no longer rewards huge units, then players will adapt accordingly. And really, that would be a simplification of the game, so that would also help speed gameplay.
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Pacific wrote: 1. Someone mentioned in another thread about the second hand market damaging GW's sales.
2. Sub-ins for GW games are becoming increasingly popular,
3. Creating new 'fantasy' creatures that are defendable as their own creations, away from standard fantasy tropes.
treating the Chapterhouse case as a wake-up call, a slap to the face and wallet which might make them actually realise their product lines and their place within the industry
This, if it comes to pass, will show more than anything else what respect GW has for its fan base.
1. I hadn't thought about this impacting secondary sales, but it's a good point, and a strong reason to start fresh.
2. This was obvious, and getting out of hand. GW made a mistake with leveraging Tolkien, and they are paying for it now.
3. This is what GW should have been doing all along. It's smarter and protected.
Chapterhouse was a wake-up, no doubt. Everything we're seeing is a result of GW losing hard.
What I don't understand is how GW is "bad" for doing what Privateer has done. Why aren't we excpriating Privateer as "bad" for pushing proprietary IP for laughably ridiculous models at unconscionably high per-model price points?
JohnHwangDD wrote: The only thing that throws me is the notion of round bases. That makes no sense based on the history of Fantasy.
However, the idea of a "skirmish" whereby you only need one box for a unit is a smart one. The idea of building lots and lots of very expensive wound counters needs to go away.
1,000 pt games with a higher minimum unit count would help here, as would removal of outnumbering, ranks and horde bonuses. If WFB no longer rewards huge units, then players will adapt accordingly. And really, that would be a simplification of the game, so that would also help speed gameplay.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pacific wrote: 1. Someone mentioned in another thread about the second hand market damaging GW's sales.
2. Sub-ins for GW games are becoming increasingly popular,
3. Creating new 'fantasy' creatures that are defendable as their own creations, away from standard fantasy tropes.
treating the Chapterhouse case as a wake-up call, a slap to the face and wallet which might make them actually realise their product lines and their place within the industry
This, if it comes to pass, will show more than anything else what respect GW has for its fan base.
1. I hadn't thought about this impacting secondary sales, but it's a good point, and a strong reason to start fresh.
2. This was obvious, and getting out of hand. GW made a mistake with leveraging Tolkien, and they are paying for it now.
3. This is what GW should have been doing all along. It's smarter and protected.
Chapterhouse was a wake-up, no doubt. Everything we're seeing is a result of GW losing hard.
What I don't understand is how GW is "bad" for doing what Privateer has done. Why aren't we excpriating Privateer as "bad" for pushing proprietary IP for laughably ridiculous models at unconscionably high per-model price points?
If you don't understand the difference, there is likely nothing that will explain it to you. It's been shown many, many times that overall the price of PP's game is cheaper generally speaking than 40k, with it only balancing out with extreme examples or when you get into 2-3 list formats. It's easier to get into by leaps and bounds; in fact I priced out recently a basic 35 point force that came (with retail discounts) to $142.00; that amount would barely get you the minimum for 40k.
I understand that GW requires more models, but don't claim that PP models aren't more expensive than GW models for the same number of bases on the tabletop.
And the minimum for 40k? About 500 points. Splitting a 40k starter set for $50 each gets you a lot more points than that.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I understand that GW requires more models, but don't claim that PP models aren't more expensive than GW models for the same number of bases on the tabletop.
And the minimum for 40k? About 500 points. Splitting a 40k starter set for $50 each gets you a lot more points than that.
And how many people play 500 points of 40k? 35 points is a regular sized game of Warmachine, not the "minimum". Besides, this thread is about WHFB. 500 is certainly not the minimum for Fantasy.
In any event this is off topic, and we aren't even talking about 40k. The fact remains this has been explained many, many times why GW is more expensive.
Because the standard size 2500 Points Warhammer army cost double or triple the price from a standard size 50 point Warmachine army, 2000 points Bolt Action or Napoleonic army
Why is GW considered bad?
Communication with the community
GW just don't care while others give information and reason why they are doing something.
Also the old "we make no mistakes, our rules are perfect" statement pushed them into a hole they never escaped.
2. Sub-ins for GW games are becoming increasingly popular,
3. Creating new 'fantasy' creatures that are defendable as their own creations, away from standard fantasy tropes.
2. This was obvious, and getting out of hand. GW made a mistake with leveraging Tolkien, and they are paying for it now.
3. This is what GW should have been doing all along. It's smarter and protected.
I dunno... I can see the point that generic elves 'n' dwarfs fantasy is a bit of a free-for-all, but I think if GW hadn't gone and done so much stuff that makes people sick and tired of them (i.e. raising prices, writing crappy rules, invalidating stuff [seems to be the word of the week], and suing everyone in eyeshot) then they could hang onto their spot as top of the heap in generic elves 'n' dwarfs fantasy minis.
While the aesthetics of some of their range can be iffy, they've got a lot of experience designing and chopping things up for plastic production, and I think it's gotten a lot better in recent years, probably with digital help. (I still marvel at the IoB stuff and the wee plastic liche king.) They could drastically undercut competing metal and resin minis, especially for army building, and their closest rival for generic fantasy plastics... well, I've thought for a while that it's a tragic choice between GW's pretty good quality and toe-curling prices, and Mantic's pretty good prices and (often) toe-curling quality. (though I think that's more down to the drawing board than the manufacturing process) Does it really have to be either/or?
Why aren't we excpriating Privateer as "bad" for pushing proprietary IP for laughably ridiculous models at unconscionably high per-model price points?
You were the one talking about minimum for 40k, not me. In my experience, 500 points is around the minimum for a viable 40k force. I prefer to play 40k at the 750 point level, because it's a great size to play.
GW is only more expensive if you choose to make it expensive.
A huge fleet of Chevys will cost more than a handful of Lincolns. That doesn't make a Lincoln less expensive than a Chevy. No matter how many of you PP apologists and white knights appear, it will not change the fact that PP models are more expensive than GW models.
PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote: They want us to buy new stuff, but they don't want to abandon the investment that ties many to the game.
They just want us to buy stuff, they don't care about anything you've already bought. In fact, to them it seems that they'd see great benefit in people having to go out and buy new minis for the game by invalidating all of the old stuff.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The only thing that throws me is the notion of round bases. That makes no sense based on the history of Fantasy.
But they've already done it with LOTR, and movement trays that take round bases have been around for years, so it's not a particularly big leap to see things on round bases. It's not as if GW has ever encouraged multi-basing or anything that would prevent it.
In some ways it's better - if it allows units it skirmish formation you could have some more interesting game play, if GW is already planning on squatting half of the Warhammer world, why not change the bases at the same time to make it really inconvenient to bring forward your old stuff?
I'm just glad I never got round to assembling my dwarf horde, so putting them on round bases will be trivial.
..... I dunno... I can see the point that generic elves 'n' dwarfs fantasy is a bit of a free-for-all, but I think if GW hadn't gone and done so much stuff that makes people sick and tired of them (i.e. raising prices, writing crappy rules, invalidating stuff [seems to be the word of the week], and suing everyone in eyeshot) then they could hang onto their spot as top of the heap in generic elves 'n' dwarfs fantasy minis. .....
This. This is the problem with games workshop. They can reboot the rules and invalidate models as much as they want, but unless they fix the problems then the problems will remain. Nowhere in the rumours have i seen "better rules", "better prices", "better balance" or even "skirmish" like i keep hearing about. It's just the same old same old, only now there will be many more people going to be hit. Bowling! Get your bowling here! <fires shotgun in the air>
Rather than trying to make everything in their Fantasy range distinctively Warhammer, GW could simply produce good models at a reasonable cost, selling them to people who wanted to play their game, and people who wanted to play other things.
They have a huge team of talented sculptors. They have their own plastic injection molding equipment. They have the experience and the distribution network. Why are they trying to reinvent the wheel?
A new version of the rules which provided good support for smaller army composition would be great. It doesn't need to rule out large battles, but surely there's some way to handle force selection which will support small scale games as well as mass battles.
Fewer army books could be great, and shouldn't need to eliminate units at all, given how large GW books are. You could easily have a "The Empire and her Allies" book which included the Empire, Bretonnia, and the Dwarves. A "Forces of the Elves" book could cover all the elven factions and give appropriate detail on all of them. "Hordes of Chaos" is rather obvious, and a "Undead" book could easily handle all types of undead. I don't know what you would call it ("Inhuman Enemies, maybe), but the Orcs, Goblins, Ogres, Skaven, and Lizardmen could all fit in one tome. I'm not talking about combined armies and eliminating units. It would be pretty easy to cover the rules for each as a full army in one book. GW's books are full of pictures and fluff right now.
I just don't see the need for GW to reinvent their fantasy business. Sure, it might be smaller than 40K, but I would expect business to drop off with all of the competition out there. I don't see how any of the rumored moves do anything other than alienate players and make new players wary of the system. I mean, the game's not perfect AT ALL, but you've had decades of success with the WFB world and the setting, so why change it so fundamentally? It's worked for YEARS.
The rules and army composition have caused almost all of GW's problems, but they seem determined to fix what isn't broken. Before anyone says anything about 'advancing the storyline', I just want to draw a distinction between "and then, something happened" and "Now, everything changes".
JohnHwangDD wrote: The only thing that throws me is the notion of round bases. That makes no sense based on the history of Fantasy.
However, the idea of a "skirmish" whereby you only need one box for a unit is a smart one. The idea of building lots and lots of very expensive wound counters needs to go away.
1,000 pt games with a higher minimum unit count would help here, as would removal of outnumbering, ranks and horde bonuses. If WFB no longer rewards huge units, then players will adapt accordingly. And really, that would be a simplification of the game, so that would also help speed gameplay.
When I am in an optimistic mood I interpret the WHFB rumors thusly:
GW will unveil a new skirmish game for WHFB. The skirmish game will be a parallel game to WHFB but different, not just a new ruleset for scaled down games of WHFB. The skirmish game, being a separate system, will get new model releases which will be the new models rumored, ie the human faction fantasy space marines. The skirmish game releases will be separate from WHFB releases and come with round bases. Why round bases? I imagine for the same reason every other skirmish game that comes to mind, from 40K to Warmahordes to Darklands, etc. uses round bases. If you want create large units of skirmish game models into games of WHFB you will be able to do so and GW will happily sell you movement trays designed to fit with round bases. Not all WHFB models will be supported by the skirmish game. There will be models and units from WHFB that won't be supported in the skirmish game because they are too big/powerful to balance in a skirmish game and therefore don't belong in one. That is my optimistic explanation for the rumor that armies will be invalidated and unsupported going forward.
WHFB 9th edition will be a mildly different version of 8th that still supports the existing armies and models. I think GW will consolidate army books along the lines already shown in the End Times books, ie one combined Elf book instead of 3. I think even more WHFB stock will be available only through the direct order website instead of FLGS or GW stores and availability will have more limitations. The official WHFB fluff will be the End Times fluff and however that ends will be the new normal for WHFB, whether that's bubble realities or whatever. I think players will still be able to field 8th edition armies since they will still be made up of units included in the new 9thEd/ET army books, playing a combined Elf army with just HE models will be possible and have rules support but all of the HE units may not be available for purchase all the time or have a more generalized/bland unit description.
That is what I hope will happen but I wouldn't be shocked if GW did it differently.
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Vermis wrote: If expectorating PP makes that much spittle fly, I think I'll pass.
Only, yeah, you're not just buying one Lincoln or Chevy. Y'see? That'd make a pretty short and boring game of, um, cars.
Great, now I want to go dig ThunderRoad out of the attic and play it some more.
JohnHwangDD wrote: You were the one talking about minimum for 40k, not me. In my experience, 500 points is around the minimum for a viable 40k force. I prefer to play 40k at the 750 point level, because it's a great size to play.
GW is only more expensive if you choose to make it expensive.
A huge fleet of Chevys will cost more than a handful of Lincolns. That doesn't make a Lincoln less expensive than a Chevy. No matter how many of you PP apologists and white knights appear, it will not change the fact that PP models are more expensive than GW models.
Is 40k designed to be played at 500pts or 750pts though? I think even though a game can be played at any points level (and if we're taking it to extremes, you could play it as the tutorial from 2nd edition and have two orks against a space marine! ) there is still a 'golden zone' at which all of the play testing, points weighting, moving/firing mechanics and everything else were designed to work at best.
The fact is that any kid opening a WD, looking at a game going on in a store, or on a video on youtbue, for the most part isn't going to see 500pts playing. They are going to see 1500/2000pts plus. And, probably a whole lot more once you get the larger plastic kits involved and 'armageddon' everything.
I think that is the fair way to determine a cost of a game - the amount that it costs, in standard format, to play a game as the creators of that game intended it, and reinforced by the standards of the community. And by this measure, since the departure of their skirmish and smaller scale games, GW pretty much blow everyone else out of the water.
Yodhrin wrote: I think you need to fetch yourself a few buckets to catch all the drips of condescension coming off that post.
Doesn't make him wrong. The "They're not taking your books away! You can still play last edition!" only holds water in situations where groups of friends agree to keep playing the previous edition. For events and pick-up games in stores the expectation will be the latest edition with the latest rules, so people have every right to be pissed off about this because not everyone has a group of friends they play with.
Yodhrin wrote: I think you need to fetch yourself a few buckets to catch all the drips of condescension coming off that post.
Doesn't make him wrong. The "They're not taking your books away! You can still play last edition!" only holds water in situations where groups of friends agree to keep playing the previous edition. For events and pick-up games in stores the expectation will be the latest edition with the latest rules, so people have every right to be pissed off about this because not everyone has a group of friends they play with.
Errrm, I'm pretty sure Vermis was agreeing with Gubbinz, ie making exactly the opposite of the argument you're stating. That's why I was having a pop, I'm getting tired of the whole "ermahgerd just play old editions/other companies' games/write your own rules, you lazy GW-sheeple!" shtick that gets thrown around every time someone objects to the decisions GW have been making recently.
Based on how well the game plays at 750, I'd say so. Seriously, go try a game in which movement and range actually matters.
I did a lot of 500-pt in-store games, because they pretty much always finished quickly and easily. And they were a good match for the armies the people were starting.
Define "community". Surely, you can't be referring to the tournament scene, as that is known to be the far extreme of the player base, and minimally relevant to anybody who isn't actively playing tournaments. If you want to look at who actually buys and plays 40k or WFB, they are the garage & basement gamer crowd who play beer & pretzels, just like the designers of the game.
JohnHwangDD wrote: If you want to look at who actually buys and plays 40k or WFB, they are the garage & basement gamer crowd who play beer & pretzels, just like the designers of the game.
The only people I see buying 40k are vets who are still in love with their armies and keep up with new releases although they never play anymore, and the 6 guys who play in international tournaments. I don't ever see anyone buying WHFB.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Based on how well the game plays at 750, I'd say so. Seriously, go try a game in which movement and range actually matters.
I did a lot of 500-pt in-store games, because they pretty much always finished quickly and easily. And they were a good match for the armies the people were starting.
Define "community". Surely, you can't be referring to the tournament scene, as that is known to be the far extreme of the player base, and minimally relevant to anybody who isn't actively playing tournaments. If you want to look at who actually buys and plays 40k or WFB, they are the garage & basement gamer crowd who play beer & pretzels, just like the designers of the game.
So you're saying the Designers designed the game for 750 point games? I know you like to be obtuse, but we all know the game is designed for 1,500 - 2,000. I also like smaller point games, but let's be reasonable about what size the game is designed for.
triplegrim wrote: They dont expect people who have full armies to buy much more anyway, is my guess.
I'm in kind of the opposite boat. I'm going to scramble to finish up my host of the eternity king and the probably 50 bucks i need to finish my ogres, because my group and I have already decided that we're sticking with 8th if they decide not to support the larger scale army style and go with skirmish style only (also, if the hex base thing is true, feth that noise).
However, that Warrior of Chaos army i was going to build once i finished buying the very little elves i need left to finish my HotEK army ? Yep. Going to xwing. Or anywhere, any company, else until this gak sorts itself out. Past a few dark and wood elf purchases to flesh out what i want to do with Elves in 8th, thanquol and book 5 of end times, Gee Dubs won't be seeing a cent from me. Probably going to offload my tau too, because, nah, feth it.
I used to play WM/H, and loved the game. Also had some very real gripes with it that made me eventually give it up. I will say this ; Privateer has never so much as hinted at fething their customers the way GW will if half of the rumors about 9th are true. And there was some EPIC butthurt going from MK1 to MK2 before the dust all settled.
At the end of the day i feel bad for people that rely on pick up games... i'm lucky... i have a group that will play 8th with me until we're too old and senile to remember what WHFB even is. It's the guys that don't have a regular crew and rely on pick up games i pity ; in that scenario, it's REALLY hard to find games in older editions. :(
JohnHwangDD wrote: Based on how well the game plays at 750, I'd say so. Seriously, go try a game in which movement and range actually matters.
I did a lot of 500-pt in-store games, because they pretty much always finished quickly and easily. And they were a good match for the armies the people were starting.
Define "community". Surely, you can't be referring to the tournament scene, as that is known to be the far extreme of the player base, and minimally relevant to anybody who isn't actively playing tournaments. If you want to look at who actually buys and plays 40k or WFB, they are the garage & basement gamer crowd who play beer & pretzels, just like the designers of the game.
So you're saying the Designers designed the game for 750 point games? I know you like to be obtuse, but we all know the game is designed for 1,500 - 2,000. I also like smaller point games, but let's be reasonable about what size the game is designed for.
Well let's face it GW are pretty terrible game designers.
I wouldn't be too surprised if it turned out smaller point games are ideal, even if it is by accident.
Just wanted to chime in and say that 50 points is the preferred points that warmachine players tend to play at for both normal games and tournaments, they argue it gives you more options.
TBH, once it became clear that warmachine was no longer a skirmish game (above 25 points) I dropped it like a baby that was poopin itself.
triplegrim wrote: They dont expect people who have full armies to buy much more anyway, is my guess.
It honestly doesn't matter if they expect that.
If little Timmy comes in the store eager to learn to play a game and sees 4 tables with vets and new players playing Bubble World Fantasy, they are more likely to gravitate to that system to play.
If there are 4 tables each with a different game, little Timmy has three other choices that might pull him in a different direction.
GW needs vets to play because GW cant be bothered to promote itself any other way.
Just wanted to chime in and say that 50 points is the preferred points that warmachine players tend to play at for both normal games and tournaments, they argue it gives you more options.
TBH, once it became clear that warmachine was no longer a skirmish game (above 25 points) I dropped it like a baby that was poopin itself.
Eh, we have a really strong WM/H presence here (due to a very active and stellar Press Ganger), tournaments and leagues are going on all the time...Warhammer and 40K games have to be scheduled in advance because all the pickup games are WM/H. I'd say 35pt and 50pt games are about equal in popularity with most of our local tourneys being 35pts (He's running a 35pt steam Roller on the 17th at a mini-Con held at the local University). 50pt games just take longer, especially when you are not doing timed turns/deathclock...
I think PP definitely pushed the balance and meta in the direction of 50pt games when they released the Colossals and Battle Engines, but the way the game is played, with each model/unit having its own special snow-flake rules, it can eat up time.
I will wait and see what happens with this whole paradigm shift in Warhammer Fantasy...but right now I feel like just sticking with 8th edition....try to buy up the books and models I've been putting off just in case they get axed...
As someone who has never gotten into Fantasy for one reason or another, I will say that I am tentatively interested in what this new version may provide. It sounds like it is WHFB in the same way that C&C 4 was a Command & Conquer game- that is, mostly in units and appearance but not traditional gameplay.
Something that has always bugged me about Fantasy is the endless ranking up of troops- all these fairly expensive models that you can barely see behind further ranks that just seem to serve as wound counters...I know it wasn't always this way (and the game certainly looks impressive from above) but it feels like a *lot* of money for models you barely even show-off. If the round base thing is true and the game is more at a skirmish level, it can get the benefit of 40k by allowing units to be seen and conversions to be better displayed...I'm sure I'm going to take flak for this, but I think that the more individualistic nature of models in 40k does a lot to draw people in (and by conjunction, the bloating and turning of cheap units into amorphous wound counters in these newer editions of 40k is hurting it just as bad as WHFB). When the models were a bit more generic, they were cheaper and it was more about a fantasy wargame, but when they get to boutique-levels of expensive, that idea starts to get eroded.
That all being said, I think this could easily be another thing GW does in bad faith to its existing customer base in a short-minded attempt to draw up revenue. Time will tell- like I said, I'm excited to see if this might be a grimdark fantasy skirmish game that is easier to get into, but I'm cautious due to the many underhanded tactics GW has employed these last few years.
I am also intrigued. As someone who mostly played during 6th and 7th I don't own the sprawling infantry units.
After switching to an Alpine table I've been putting off rebasing them for some time now. If they need to go to rounds and the new rules are interesting that would be sufficient motivation.
Best case: This new game is in support of Fantasy and serves as a gateway to the larger game.
Worst case: Pretty much everything the rumors say is true.
I'm hoping after their last couple financial reports they start making some smart moves.
I sympathize with those who rely on game store games if this goes the way many worry.
Oh yes, I certainly feel for the loyal WHFB fans. That seems to have been the story with GW these last few years though- those who are most loyal and supportive of the company always seem to be the ones making the sacrifices on the company's behalf.
Errrm, I'm pretty sure Vermis was agreeing with Gubbinz, ie making exactly the opposite of the argument you're stating. That's why I was having a pop, I'm getting tired of the whole "ermahgerd just play old editions/other companies' games/write your own rules, you lazy GW-sheeple!" shtick that gets thrown around every time someone objects to the decisions GW have been making recently.
Oh wait, that was a pop at me, right?
S'cool. Like I said before, I'm not your problem. People who talk about alternate rules and striking out to find other venues and opponents whenever GW pulls the rug from under you again are not your problem. We're just listing a few of your options, some of which worked pretty well for us when GW strained us beyond our limits. (So welcome to the club) Let's run down a few here, as far as I can see...
1) You keep playing at a GW store, or even a FLGS that has a lot of up-to-date FB gaming. You shell out for 9th ed. You shell out for a new 9th ed army, or warband, or whatever it is, if you even need to. You'll shelve, sell or dump your old army, if you even need to. Maybe a) it turns out you love 9th ed and you almost forget why you had worries at this point, or b) you'll miss the old rules you liked (or at least disliked less), resent 9th ed, resent GW's ongoing scalping and shenanigans, and resent what your hobby has become, but still keep feeding coins into the slot because reasons. G'luck with that.
2) You manage to hunt out some players who like the same edition you do, or people willing to try it out, and you meet at a FLGS, an existing club, at a club you created or helped to create, or at the home of one of the group. It might take a while to find and organise such a group. It might curtail your gaming for a while and afterwards it might not be as regular as your GW heyday, but it is the edition you enjoy and you do get some games in.
3) As 2, but with other games. It might include a fantasy ruleset that your army is compatible with, or it might include different systems with different genres and different models. Maybe even (whisper it) historicals. Maybe you enjoy them more than you did your favoured edition of Warhammer. Maybe you still wish you could dust off your old army once in a while. Maybe the gaming group, whoever they may be, aren't opposed to giving it a shot every so often. Maybe maybe maybe. My crystal ball is in the shop.
4) You can't do any of this. You don't start 9th ed (perfectly reasonable) but a) your real life and situation don't allow you further than the nearest GW (genuinely unfortunate), or b) because pickup games, buying more new WFB stuff, and/or GW were your only reasons for gaming. (also unfortunate, but in a different way) Either way, that's it. You can't play anymore. Game over, man. Game over.
That's how I see it. Please add to it if you think I've missed anything. But let's look at what I have here. 1a is possible, but I guess not altogether likely for some of the concerned parties here. 1b is hardly ideal, I hope you'll agree. 4a even less so, and if that's the reason for quitting, I am sorry. I can't really imagine how such an extreme scenario comes about, but I don't doubt it does.
So 2 and 3, then. These are the options I think are more likely to work out positively. To a died-in-the-wool GW store gamer, they might seem like too drastic a leap, too much hard work, too doomed to failure; but I'm sitting on the other side of the fence with a bunch of others, all trying to call over and say they can work, and it's not so bad over here! Better even.
If you think we're watching all this despair and anger as Warhammer explodes into billions of tiny bubbles around you, then post our positive experiences about the possibilities of 2&3 just to mock you as 'GW sheeple'... I dunno. Yeah, there is - in turn - some expressed frustration as I see so much yammering, outrage, and defeat in topics like this, but so little desire or conviction to break away or work something out to some kind of satisfaction; but I say you're taking it the wrong way. I don't hate you. I don't hate GW gamers. I just want to point out that things aren't all doom and gloom when GW becomes unbearable or untenable (what better time?) and that Warhammer isn't the beginning and end of fantasy gaming.
I totally understand any hesitation by long time WFB players...
That being said, the End Times series drew me to the game (having played Warmachine for years and often disregarding GW) and I beleive that same dynamic thinking in reinventing a game will, in the end (Which might take until 10th ed.) prove to be good for the game. I think a lot of people are like me...
GW has my attention now, so Im intrigued to see whats next.
+1 for seriously doubting GW would make all the WHFB models invalid in the next update but this is what I suspect GW will be doing for 9th:
The End Times is a hint to us as far as what factions there will be in the next edition, so far we have Undead, Chaos, Elves, and Skaven so if there really will be six factions in the 9th edition, then we might see Greenskins and Man as the next two End Times installions? That would leave us with 6 factions for 9th.
Also with the direction GW has been taking, making it possible to build multiple models from one kit, i.e., the verminking can be assembled as several different models, same with the Mortachs of Nagash and Maggoth Lords. So, I suspect with the 9th edition, we will have factions within factions such as dark, wood, and high elves being one faction and we would be able to build our elves as one of those factions from one kit however we would see the same rule being used for high elves and dark elves spearman but if you assemble it as dark, you get special rules, and vice versa. Future kit releases would be to consolidate factions into one kit and one army book.
This would be a really smart move by GW and I think it is a plausible theory. Of course there will be a mechanical overhaul to go with this aesthic overhaul but as I said, I seriously doubt the current models will be rendered invalid except for maybe very few specific models and possibly the entire lizardmen line but nothing too drastic.
Basically as stated it was a pretty detailed (fake?) draft of 40k that represented a huge shift in mechanics and rules. Like bigger then 5th to 6th big.
pretre wrote: I know that it has probably been said better previously but... The more rumors I see, the more I am reminded of 'pancake edition' 40k.
Yeah, it does have that feel a bit. I would point out though that the reception to the pancake edition was generally positive IIRC where as this isn't.
Eldarain wrote: I am also intrigued. As someone who mostly played during 6th and 7th I don't own the sprawling infantry units.
After switching to an Alpine table I've been putting off rebasing them for some time now. If they need to go to rounds and the new rules are interesting that would be sufficient motivation.
Best case: This new game is in support of Fantasy and serves as a gateway to the larger game.
Worst case: Pretty much everything the rumors say is true.
I'm hoping after their last couple financial reports they start making some smart moves.
I sympathize with those who rely on game store games if this goes the way many worry.
I agree with this stance, it could be good if it's a separate game in and of it's own, but to totally replace the old game? That would be literally the worst thing GW could do.
Maybe Mat Ward is planning to destroy the game so he and Jervis can play with all the models alone in their basement? Who knows. Do they even still pay that twit with real money or have they realized you can pay Mat Ward with pbc bubblegum?
Automatically Appended Next Post: PBC stands for Previously Been Chewed. Just in case...
pretre wrote: I know that it has probably been said better previously but... The more rumors I see, the more I am reminded of 'pancake edition' 40k.
Yeah, it does have that feel a bit. I would point out though that the reception to the pancake edition was generally positive IIRC where as this isn't.
The irony is thick.
darkcloak wrote:I agree with this stance, it could be good if it's a separate game in and of it's own, but to totally replace the old game? That would be literally the worst thing GW could do.
Maybe Mat Ward is planning to destroy the game so he and Jervis can play with all the models alone in their basement? Who knows. Do they even still pay that twit with real money or have they realized you can pay Mat Ward with pbc bubblegum?
Mat Ward has already abandoned ship. Take that as you will.
pretre wrote: I know that it has probably been said better previously but... The more rumors I see, the more I am reminded of 'pancake edition' 40k.
Yeah, it does have that feel a bit. I would point out though that the reception to the pancake edition was generally positive IIRC where as this isn't.
Right, I meant more that there was a big rumor with a lot of details that everyone jumped on and turned into a 'thing'.
I get what you're saying, and you're right this is still just a rumour. But my gut-instinct says this one is credible: it has the right sources (like harry & darnok), its the opposite of popular (people went nuts over how much they liked the pancake edition), and it doesn't address the issue of fantasy's declining sales. In short, it has games workshop written all over it. Time will tell though, still just a rumour at this point.
pretre wrote: I'm gonna have to dig up who the big proponents of pancake were.
inb4 Natfka.
The hilarious thing about pancake edition, however, is that it not only was a pretty good-looking forged piece of rules, it also was considerably better than the actual rules GW published.
hehe, my poor Wood Elves finally get an update only to get
shoveled into a floating island battle between the realities with
their snobby cousins who look down on everyone and the
creepy ones who are into all kinds of stuff.
This end times business was bad enough, but I guess 40k has
space travel to allow for all kinds of story battles. I'm not sure
what other way they could go to have all the races interacting
all the time.
pretre wrote: I'm gonna have to dig up who the big proponents of pancake were.
inb4 Natfka.
The hilarious thing about pancake edition, however, is that it not only was a pretty good-looking forged piece of rules, it also was considerably better than the actual rules GW published.
This.
Our group playtested 40kPE once it broke cover, and I, for one, was really digging them. It was a solid advance from 5E and played better.
Then the real version of 6E hit.
Part of me thinks that 40kPE was too good, so GW knee-jerked away from it.
If GW follows threw with splitting the lands of the old up and it isn't all that well received, they could re-create warhammer as a mass battle game in recreating the old world in the next edition with a campaign series. After all of they could wreck the world, they could rebuild it and possibly retcon the entire end times campaign afterwards.
What I don't understand is how GW is "bad" for doing what Privateer has done. Why aren't we excpriating Privateer as "bad" for pushing proprietary IP for laughably ridiculous models at unconscionably high per-model price points?
For me personally, PP isn't "bad" because they take an active role with their customers. They discuss what they are up to, and work to fix holes in the system as they pop up. They also support and push tournament play, which helps drive people into playing more (and for even a casual gamer like me, makes me more willing to play for pick-up game occasions).
The sticker price has never seemed that much cheaper to me than GW stuff, and in some cases PP stuff has seemed more expensive. Until I realize that I can't compare a unit box from GW to a unit box from PP in usefulness to an army.
Though I guess PP could be bad for pushing super silly shoulder pads...
Edit to add: I do realize that PP can do all this because it has a much smaller machine to run, and doesn't have to answer to public shareholders like GW does.
This rumor does sound similar to the transition of Space Marine to Epic 40K back in the day.
Sure Epic didn't have a wholesale rewrite of the background, however it did leave several of the most popular armies squated (or at least on the back burner) which helped seal its fate.
And while some people are arguing against GW doing limited releases for unit boxes, it should be remembered that GW's definition of limited doesn't mean one and done. The Space Hulk re-re-release could be a precursor.
I can see Kirby approving a plan where a mold is retired, only to be brought back in 3 years during a slow release week, but now with an extra sprue with a new "greatswords & ribbons" option to encourage repurchase from the remaining vets... and only with a 20% price hike
Perhaps GWs aim with all this is to finaly make "fantasy" a 40k prequel, aka the postapocalyptic society the once and future god emperor united.
Fans would implode with indigination and nerd rage, but at least we would get squats back
As a WHFB player since 5th ed., having played it and dropped it off and on over the years, I have to say that I think the prospoects for 9th ed. are really intriguing. I haven't played since the beginnings of 8th, but the shake-up of End Times and promise of progressing th storyline has gotten me interested in picking it back up again. I mean, as expensive as 40k is, as many models as you need for it, WHFB is even more model intensive. Can you make a small, elite WHFB army? Sure, but it's harder to do than in 40k. It'd be nice if they brought the scale of WHFB (from a model number perspective) back in line with 40k. 9th could be a good way to do it.
Errrm, I'm pretty sure Vermis was agreeing with Gubbinz, ie making exactly the opposite of the argument you're stating. That's why I was having a pop, I'm getting tired of the whole "ermahgerd just play old editions/other companies' games/write your own rules, you lazy GW-sheeple!" shtick that gets thrown around every time someone objects to the decisions GW have been making recently.
Oh wait, that was a pop at me, right?
S'cool. Like I said before, I'm not your problem. People who talk about alternate rules and striking out to find other venues and opponents whenever GW pulls the rug from under you again are not your problem.
-snip-
Yes mate, yes you are my problem, because the implicit assumption you and your ilk are making when you feel the need to give everyone this "advice" over, and over, and over again in every thread where GW's behaviour is a subject is that everyone but you must be too stupid to have figured these obvious points out already. That perception is not helped by the tone of your posts specifically, which are often written as if you're an adult talking to a room of small children.
Look at the amount of assumptions you're making; I'm not even one of the people your "advice" is aimed at, I mostly play dead Specialist Games with occasional fluff-focused campaigns of the main systems, my model purchases these days are mostly non-GW(and those that are GW are mostly second hand). That doesn't mean I can't find GW's behaviour and treatment of their fanbase repugnant and say so, but you leap straight to the conclusion that anyone who doesn't agree with your specific view of how folk should deal with that must necessarily need you to explain things to them nice and slowly, so their GW-addled brains can understand.
From all accounts, Fantasy is dying on its feet. Continuing a failed trend and giving us version 8.1 is unlikely to arrest this decline.
Streamlining is a sensible plan to me. Fantasy, in my view, has enough dead wood as it is. To be honest, I'd rather see 6 well supported factions, with regular updates and models, than the constant bloat of having to wait 6 years for a new wood elf book.
Also, it could be that this new version allows GW to produce a tight, well balanced set of rules.
Yeah, I think they've played just about every other card they could. They've moved most everything to plastic, created new units and giant kits, and have used the rules to encourage people to have larger armies. But they're just about tapped out on that stuff, even as they've made the barrier to entry taller and increased the number of SKUs they have to manage. Mild tweaks paired with additional bloat just isn't going to reverse the decline.
And I still think that the notion that "everything is invalidated!!!" will prove to be untrue. There will undoubtedly be some pain, but I suspect that plenty of old minis will still be hitting the tabletop.
It's a no-win situation for GW. If they did nothing, and released version 8.1, everybody would criticise them for falling sales and doing nothing to arrest the decline of fantasy.
Now that they could be changing things, people are attacking them anyway. I swear, more people are becoming like goldilocks with each passing day
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: It's a no-win situation for GW. If they did nothing, and released version 8.1, everybody would criticise them for falling sales and doing nothing to arrest the decline of fantasy.
Now that they could be changing things, people are attacking them anyway. I swear, more people are becoming like goldilocks with each passing day
"Change" alone is not good enough. It is never good enough. Which changes you make are always more important than anything else, and there is nothing hypocritical or contradictory about comprehending that fact.
I don't know if I'm with the doom mongers on this one. The more I read about the proposed changes the more intrigued I become. It sounds like GW are actually willing to take in risk in turning WFB around. WFB has become a rather stale game of late and financially it is in decline. I honestly believe that if it weren’t for the fact that it was the ‘original’ GW game and as a result enjoyed a sort of protected/heritage status it would probably have been dropped years ago.
It enjoys shelf space, studio attention, model releases and magazine coverage that is vastly out of proportion with the amount it revenue it generates. Perhaps during the boom times that could be tolerated but not GW are in a vulnerable position they either need to turn it into a viable game with unique appeal or drop it all together and concentrate on 40k which is where the real money is.
Moving away from generic Tolkienesque fantasy races and Historical influenced human armies is probably a good idea and even the round bases thing isn’t putting me off. If the game engine can handle both skirmishes and massed battles that opens up allot of different game types and makes the game accessible to people whom simply wouldn’t have been able to contemplate the huge buy in cost for WFB as it currently stands.
I’m actually interested in seeing what they do with this. More interested than I’ve been by a new WFB edition in years.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: It's a no-win situation for GW. If they did nothing, and released version 8.1, everybody would criticise them for falling sales and doing nothing to arrest the decline of fantasy.
If it is a no-win situation for GW it's one of their own making. If they were engaged with their customer base they could avoid doing things that lead to thinking that destroying a 30-year-old product line is the best option on the table.
Rick_1138 wrote: @JohnHwangDD Your avater is distracting, please provide more similar pictures so that one is less distracting.....
There is one poster that has an avatar of Gianna Michaels that I'm amazed made it past the mods. BTW if you don't know who Gianna Michaels is then for goodness sake don't google her at work!
pretre wrote: I know that it has probably been said better previously but... The more rumors I see, the more I am reminded of 'pancake edition' 40k.
My thoughts exactly. Then again, before 6th Ed there wasn't a massive world-changing series of books that dramatically altered the base storyline of the entire setting.
Herzlos wrote: I haven't seen anyone complain about change being bad. Plenty of people complaining about these specific changes being bad though.
You're kidding?
Everytime a new version of 40k or fantasy or a codex comes out, most, but not all, do nothing but complain.
Why haven't my Chaos Warriors got 40 attacks each or why can't my gretchin defeat a Titan in close combat I exaggerate, but people do nothing but whine on this forum with each new release. GW are damned if they do, damned if they don't. And I say this as somebody that bailed out of the GW hobby 2-3 years ago.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LuciusAR wrote: I don't know if I'm with the doom mongers on this one. The more I read about the proposed changes the more intrigued I become. It sounds like GW are actually willing to take in risk in turning WFB around. WFB has become a rather stale game of late and financially it is in decline. I honestly believe that if it weren’t for the fact that it was the ‘original’ GW game and as a result enjoyed a sort of protected/heritage status it would probably have been dropped years ago.
It enjoys shelf space, studio attention, model releases and magazine coverage that is vastly out of proportion with the amount it revenue it generates. Perhaps during the boom times that could be tolerated but not GW are in a vulnerable position they either need to turn it into a viable game with unique appeal or drop it all together and concentrate on 40k which is where the real money is.
Moving away from generic Tolkienesque fantasy races and Historical influenced human armies is probably a good idea and even the round bases thing isn’t putting me off. If the game engine can handle both skirmishes and massed battles that opens up allot of different game types and makes the game accessible to people whom simply wouldn’t have been able to contemplate the huge buy in cost for WFB as it currently stands.
I’m actually interested in seeing what they do with this. More interested than I’ve been by a new WFB edition in years.
You hit the nail on the head here. GW are recognising that their fantasy line is turning into the Titanic, but rather than jump overboard and try and save the situation, some people are more concerned about the lifeboats being the wrong colour!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MWHistorian wrote: If only there was some way GW could find out what the fans wanted instead of making wild guesses. If only...
Didn't they have their own message boards years ago, but got swamped out by people complaining so much, they pulled the plug?
My main 2 beef with warhammer : the bubblelicious edition, is limited time release, and dropping armies.
it cost so much money and takes so much time that no one should have their army invlaidated,
Limited time release is also lame, since it will turn the game into a colletible card game tyoe of game.
Oh, and fantasy space marines sound lame as hell, but if they look like the warrior priest, it might be cool. I just hope that it's only the human elite that are like this, and not every human. Would be dumb if human become stronger in cc than orcs and beastmens.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Didn't they have their own message boards years ago, but got swamped out by people complaining so much, they pulled the plug?
That was a reference to market research, which GW apparently does not conduct. Forums are a terrible place to gather useful feedback.
Rick_1138 wrote: @JohnHwangDD Your avater is distracting, please provide more similar pictures so that one is less distracting.....
Dude, you're on the internet. If you find that little picture there distracting, never leave this forum. There are other things out there you would be horrified to see...
Back on topic, there might be some merit to the changes. Reducing the amount of models in an army isn't a bad idea, streamlining the rules is allways good and less factions may improve the ballance.
However, as this is GW we're talking about, i dread the execution. They'll handle this along the lines of "instead of 10 plastic dudesmen for 30€ you'll get 3 slightly bigger plastic dudesmen for 35€", the new factions will be horribly ballanced as there is no reference anymore and every single unit will have so many special rules, exceptions and abilities that learning the core rules becomes borderline-unnecessary.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Didn't they have their own message boards years ago, but got swamped out by people complaining so much, they pulled the plug?
That was a reference to market research, which GW apparently does not conduct. Forums are a terrible place to gather useful feedback.
And yet other companies manage with forums and interact with their members and glean information which works it way into their systems - hey, its market research!
And there is no apparently about it. GW explicitly does not conduct market research.
I personally hope they keep away from the whole 40k-WHFB connection. It just cheapens the whole Fantasy environment, if they're just one backwater planet floating amongst the sea of things going on in 40k. Nothing really matters when a Space Marines could theoretically land at any time and wipe out all of the forces in the game!
Torga_DW wrote: There was always that rumour that sigmar was the primarch of one of the 'classified' legions.......
Yeah that was pre-horus heresy books rumor. Doesn't really apply anymore as the fluff has been detailed much more over 31 books.
Has it really been that many already and they're not even half way through yet? Does that include the audio books and novellas as well?
There's 31 novels, and they are chronologically halfway through the Heresy iirc. A few of them are very filler-y and you don't have to read them, and personally I like the majority of them, but yeah there is a fair few.
At face value, from the perspective of a vet Fantasy gamer, this seems pretty bad.
But overall, I think these changes would be good, if executed well.
Fantasy overall is kind of like a dying elven civilization. It's this big, grand, over-arching structure that is becoming less and less relevant to today's gaming sphere, with a lot of significant breakpoints (primarily around model count, cost; secondarily around game length, rules bloat/complexity).
If you back off and really look at Fantasy, it's a skirmish game, but the base unit size is not one model as most other skirmish games are, it's a block of half a dozen to dozens of individual figures.
If you did keep the same core game 'feel' but break these ridiculous model counts down, I could see the appeal of that game. It'd be more like super-Mordheim than Fantasy-lite, and I think that would generate interest/momentum for the line. Overall that would be good.
But it wouldn't be the same grand structure, obviously. I would expect the system to lose a lot of its character, and what remained would be more simplistic, but also probably more adaptable and fertile ground for advancement.
The time of the Elf is over, this is the Age of the Orc.
Now, these two things obviously aren't mutally exclusive. You could have ::gasp!:: both. From the perspective of a manufacturing company watching declining sales and market share, though, it does make sense to drastically cut or scale back the Fantasy line in this sort of fashion, though. It's actually pretty standard restructuring practice.
It doesn't need to be this extreme, though. Just get the model count back down to the 4th/5th level (without the herohammer mind you). Big units were 20-24. Elite units ran 12-16.
LuciusAR wrote: I don't know if I'm with the doom mongers on this one. The more I read about the proposed changes the more intrigued I become. It sounds like GW are actually willing to take in risk in turning WFB around. WFB has become a rather stale game of late and financially it is in decline. I honestly believe that if it weren’t for the fact that it was the ‘original’ GW game and as a result enjoyed a sort of protected/heritage status it would probably have been dropped years ago.
It enjoys shelf space, studio attention, model releases and magazine coverage that is vastly out of proportion with the amount it revenue it generates. Perhaps during the boom times that could be tolerated but not GW are in a vulnerable position they either need to turn it into a viable game with unique appeal or drop it all together and concentrate on 40k which is where the real money is.
Moving away from generic Tolkienesque fantasy races and Historical influenced human armies is probably a good idea and even the round bases thing isn’t putting me off. If the game engine can handle both skirmishes and massed battles that opens up allot of different game types and makes the game accessible to people whom simply wouldn’t have been able to contemplate the huge buy in cost for WFB as it currently stands.
I’m actually interested in seeing what they do with this. More interested than I’ve been by a new WFB edition in years.
You hit the nail on the head here. GW are recognising that their fantasy line is turning into the Titanic, but rather than jump overboard and try and save the situation, some people are more concerned about the lifeboats being the wrong colour!
The primary concern I have with all of what i've read isn't so much it's changing, so much as how drastic a change this is, and wondering what this is going to do to my current collection/army, which I think anyone would have a right to complain about legitimately. As someone who plays Dwarves reading a rumour that my army is going to be merged into Empire and made as a small, survivour sub-race within them isn't exactly something I want to be hearing. I have quite a large dwarf army collection, having everything tossed up into the air and potentially told I now have to start over again and at GW's prices..? Yeeeea to hell with that, no thank you. Will wait and see how crazy a change this prooves to be but if GW is going to shatter my army into a sub-race of Empire and invalidate a lot of my collection in the process i'm not giving them more money and going on...
At face value, from the perspective of a vet Fantasy gamer, this seems pretty bad.
But overall, I think these changes would be good, if executed well.
Fantasy overall is kind of like a dying elven civilization. It's this big, grand, over-arching structure that is becoming less and less relevant to today's gaming sphere, with a lot of significant breakpoints (primarily around model count, cost; secondarily around game length, rules bloat/complexity).
If you back off and really look at Fantasy, it's a skirmish game, but the base unit size is not one model as most other skirmish games are, it's a block of half a dozen to dozens of individual figures.
If you did keep the same core game 'feel' but break these ridiculous model counts down, I could see the appeal of that game. It'd be more like super-Mordheim than Fantasy-lite, and I think that would generate interest/momentum for the line. Overall that would be good.
But it wouldn't be the same grand structure, obviously. I would expect the system to lose a lot of its character, and what remained would be more simplistic, but also probably more adaptable and fertile ground for advancement.
The time of the Elf is over, this is the Age of the Orc.
Now, these two things obviously aren't mutally exclusive. You could have ::gasp!:: both. From the perspective of a manufacturing company watching declining sales and market share, though, it does make sense to drastically cut or scale back the Fantasy line in this sort of fashion, though. It's actually pretty standard restructuring practice.
Good post. In my view Fantasy has an identity crisis - it doesn't know what it what it wants to be. RPG? Skirmish game? Historical style game with big battles? We don't know. Instead, we get a horrible mish-mash of all three of those elements. This happens in 40k as well, but 40k's popularity means that they get away with it.
LuciusAR wrote: I don't know if I'm with the doom mongers on this one. The more I read about the proposed changes the more intrigued I become. It sounds like GW are actually willing to take in risk in turning WFB around. WFB has become a rather stale game of late and financially it is in decline. I honestly believe that if it weren’t for the fact that it was the ‘original’ GW game and as a result enjoyed a sort of protected/heritage status it would probably have been dropped years ago.
It enjoys shelf space, studio attention, model releases and magazine coverage that is vastly out of proportion with the amount it revenue it generates. Perhaps during the boom times that could be tolerated but not GW are in a vulnerable position they either need to turn it into a viable game with unique appeal or drop it all together and concentrate on 40k which is where the real money is.
Moving away from generic Tolkienesque fantasy races and Historical influenced human armies is probably a good idea and even the round bases thing isn’t putting me off. If the game engine can handle both skirmishes and massed battles that opens up allot of different game types and makes the game accessible to people whom simply wouldn’t have been able to contemplate the huge buy in cost for WFB as it currently stands.
I’m actually interested in seeing what they do with this. More interested than I’ve been by a new WFB edition in years.
You hit the nail on the head here. GW are recognising that their fantasy line is turning into the Titanic, but rather than jump overboard and try and save the situation, some people are more concerned about the lifeboats being the wrong colour!
The primary concern I have with all of what i've read isn't so much it's changing, so much as how drastic a change this is, and wondering what this is going to do to my current collection/army, which I think anyone would have a right to complain about legitimately. As someone who plays Dwarves reading a rumour that my army is going to be merged into Empire and made as a small, survivour sub-race within them isn't exactly something I want to be hearing. I have quite a large dwarf army collection, having everything tossed up into the air and potentially told I now have to start over again and at GW's prices..? Yeeeea to hell with that, no thank you. Will wait and see how crazy a change this prooves to be but if GW is going to shatter my army into a sub-race of Empire and invalidate a lot of my collection in the process i'm not giving them more money and going on...
I'm very sympathetic to your point of view, but look at it this way: if GW do nothing, and continue with the failed approach, there is a chance that your army would be invalidated anyway, for the simple reason that Fantasy was no longer financially viable, and thus up for the chop.
Agree very much with sourclams & DINLT's point here. No point flogging a dead horse. Got to try something else to get customers interested in the brand again.
See, what I don't get is if GW want to keep WFB going with minimal cost is go back to 7th ed - tweak the few issues that there were and then call it good. Games do not have to keep evolving, especially ones with such a rich background and diversity as exists in GW.
So many people left after the release of 8th Ed, myself included.
Yes, prices are high for WFB and as a truely mass combat system the core troops need to come down significantly to ever get me interested. I don't mind pay $60 to $80 for a three man unit of killyness or even $20 for a general/ hero. I accept that numbers sold v's cost to make make that particular item more expensive. However, I don;t expect to pay more than $1.50 to $2 for a core trooper - expecially when I need 200+
When it comes to models I would do what Perry/ Warlord/ victrix do - sell complete units in the typical size used. $50 for a box of 40 orcs or empire militia.
A cut in price for books just like FOW did would also be a good idea. They just cut prices by 30% - I dropped out of FOW because of prices when moved to new edition. The book and army bookes were too expensive - well, now I have a rule book and two faction books. I get some models from Battlefront but my tanks elsewhere because BF charge far too much for 5 tanks.
If GW cannot make money from their current model, they need to revisit how they made money in the past - not create something new and untested or you could possibly accelerate the 8th ed effect.
If GW cannot make money from their current model, they need to revisit how they made money in the past - not create something new and untested or you could possibly accelerate the 8th ed effect.
This^^
A thousand times this.
They need to get back to the time where the game was dominating Europe. Destroying everything in the hopes of making something that is completely untried, especially given GW's track record with newer rules systems, is not the way to revitalize Fantasy, its just the way to burn whatever is left into the ground.
fullheadofhair wrote: If GW cannot make money from their current model, they need to revisit how they made money in the past - not create something new and untested or you could possibly accelerate the 8th ed effect.
I'm assuming the loss of shelf space and general decline/market share loss is a real constraint for them as a company, though. To return to how they made money in the past also seems to involve a shift away from this direct-only order format and basically everything they've done from a business structure standpoint (which was horrible and short-sighted and I'm not defending it at all).
On the topic of pricing I cant help but notice when price is mentioned its also mentioned along side quantity of models required. So is it a price issue or is it a model count issue?
I have to say model count. I know I dont speak for everyone but a lower model count table top game is just what I need. We talk about breathing new life, I for one have a handful of friends that have been enjoying my collection and wanting to play, but a $100 investment in books before you even get to the models is very off putting.
As for price, I can justify the cost if I dont need as many models, I just bought the Dragon Ogres last night for a Pathfinder game, and the level of detail is amazing, the extra bits, the options, I dont know what other company Im gonna get that from. I would use GW models to proxy other games in a heart beat.
Those Dark Elf Witches, would love a box! $50 (online) for 10, ouch, yes, BUT if you only need 5 for a table top game and could make 5 of each, $50 for the enjoyment of painting and kit bashing those models would be fine imo. Knowing you need 40 for a current game is ball busting..
Having said that though, if the game is to be played large skirmish than ya, price needs to drop alot, make core cheaper and recoup that money on the large center piece models.
Chopxsticks wrote: On the topic of pricing I cant help but notice when price is mentioned its also mentioned along side quantity of models required. So is it a price issue or is it a model count issue?
I speak only for myself but I perceive it as both. There's 3 issues, I'm going to order them from most to least impact (IMO):
1. Entry cost and overall cost
2. Amount of models needed to play (tying in with overall cost)
3 or 2b. Majority of 'ranked' models completely pointless but still demand significant assembly/painting time
I have already seen locals replace individual ranked figs with some sort of large scenic piece 1x5+ bases wide; instead of 5 more generic dudes with spears it's a chaos portal or a religious shrine or trees/scenery.
I think, in general, everybody wants a painted or good-looking army. The high price tag is one barrier to entry, but I really do feel that needing to lovingly craft 80 men to then relegate into this visual sea of anonymity is another barrier.
Agreed! I am one of those with Unit fillers. I play Skaven, Empire, and Vampire Counts. Rank and file models NEVER RANK so unit fillers serve 2 purposes for me.
I also cannot muster the will power to paint more than 10 core models before it bores me.
I think my Area must not care as much which saddens me. My game store usually has to cancel WHFB tournaments and when I go to watch 40k everyone is playing with only assembled models. most not even base coated.
I am more into the hobby aspect of it though so I think thats why rules and fluff are not bothering me as much. I paint far more than I have ever played.
I know for a fact for ME and ME only, smaller games will attract my friends to play. I know "play 500 point games" which yes we could do, but that does restrict the models we have access to.
Not to bring up Warmachine yet again... but there is something to be said for a system that rewards you for not taking multiple of the same model
Chopxsticks wrote: On the topic of pricing I cant help but notice when price is mentioned its also mentioned along side quantity of models required. So is it a price issue or is it a model count issue?
It's a combination of both. You have a lot of models and a high price for them, especially in WHFB where you tend to get 10 models in a box and want at least 20 or more to make a good size squad.
Even if they reduced the model count so that a box of 10 guys was "normal", you'd still be paying a lot for a box of 10 guys. It wouldn't address the full problem.
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Chopxsticks wrote: Not to bring up Warmachine yet again... but there is something to be said for a system that rewards you for not taking multiple of the same model
To be fair though, this isn't exactly the case. Warmachine has Force Allocation, so you can't take multiples without some theme lists that basically restrict you to only that (Butcher2's theme force springs to mind). A lot of it also has to do with the fact most infantry are only good or better with their UA, and most of the time the UA is limited to 1, so you only take one unit.
If GW cannot make money from their current model, they need to revisit how they made money in the past - not create something new and untested or you could possibly accelerate the 8th ed effect.
Unlikely to ever happen. GW has too many competitors eating away at its market share (Mantic, FOW etc) , and of course, rightly or wrongly, GW have alienated a section of their former customers with certain decisions over the year (finecast, pricing, lack of news on future products etc etc)
Even in 7th edition, there was too much dead wood -they got away with it at the time, but GW can't turn the clock back. They're in decline (not terminal in my view) but they do have to cut their cloth to fit their circumstances in the here and now.
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angelofvengeance wrote: Agree very much with sourclams & DINLT's point here. No point flogging a dead horse. Got to try something else to get customers interested in the brand again.
9 times out of 10, I'd go for evolution over revolution any day of the week, but Fantasy, as it stands, is on life support. What have GW got to lose?
I would imagine this "future of WHFB" is something similar to what GW is doing in 40k with the Shield of Baal, and Red Tide (or whatever its called). Thats why theyre talking about "bubbles" and stuff. The core armies and rulebook probably won't change except to release new ones.
Even If this new edition of WHFB is the nail in its coffin and the line is discontinued, there's plenty of competitors rules to use (and earlier GW editions of fantasy!) Just choose your favorite. Im not gonna stress about this, so few people play fantasy in this area. Usually, If I find a fantasy player they havn't played in years and we play a mash of editions anyway.
Army detachments for Fantasy might be cool though.
At face value, from the perspective of a vet Fantasy gamer, this seems pretty bad.
But overall, I think these changes would be good, if executed well.
Fantasy overall is kind of like a dying elven civilization. It's this big, grand, over-arching structure that is becoming less and less relevant to today's gaming sphere, with a lot of significant breakpoints (primarily around model count, cost; secondarily around game length, rules bloat/complexity).
If you back off and really look at Fantasy, it's a skirmish game, but the base unit size is not one model as most other skirmish games are, it's a block of half a dozen to dozens of individual figures.
If you did keep the same core game 'feel' but break these ridiculous model counts down, I could see the appeal of that game. It'd be more like super-Mordheim than Fantasy-lite, and I think that would generate interest/momentum for the line. Overall that would be good.
But it wouldn't be the same grand structure, obviously. I would expect the system to lose a lot of its character, and what remained would be more simplistic, but also probably more adaptable and fertile ground for advancement.
The time of the Elf is over, this is the Age of the Orc.
Now, these two things obviously aren't mutally exclusive. You could have ::gasp!:: both. From the perspective of a manufacturing company watching declining sales and market share, though, it does make sense to drastically cut or scale back the Fantasy line in this sort of fashion, though. It's actually pretty standard restructuring practice.
I agree with pretty much all of this. GW mismanged Fantasy very badly.
IMO, Boneripper is really the best metaphor for what Fantasy has become - a bloated monstrosity with too many things going on. End Times is good, stripping away the unnecessary stuff to clean up the backstory and clear the slate to rebuild anew.
Also, Super-Mordheim is a great idea. Mordheim is, by far, my favorite GW Fantasy game. Well-balanced out of the box, yet still having great variety and playability. I would love a Mordheim II, and if WFB 9E is the way we get it, I'm all for it.
Chopxsticks wrote: On the topic of pricing I cant help but notice when price is mentioned its also mentioned along side quantity of models required. So is it a price issue or is it a model count issue?
I have to say model count. I know I dont speak for everyone but a lower model count table top game is just what I need. We talk about breathing new life, I for one have a handful of friends that have been enjoying my collection and wanting to play, but a $100 investment in books before you even get to the models is very off putting.
As for price, I can justify the cost if I dont need as many models, I just bought the Dragon Ogres last night for a Pathfinder game, and the level of detail is amazing, the extra bits, the options, I dont know what other company Im gonna get that from. I would use GW models to proxy other games in a heart beat.
Those Dark Elf Witches, would love a box! $50 (online) for 10, ouch, yes, BUT if you only need 5 for a table top game and could make 5 of each, $50 for the enjoyment of painting and kit bashing those models would be fine imo. Knowing you need 40 for a current game is ball busting..
Having said that though, if the game is to be played large skirmish than ya, price needs to drop alot, make core cheaper and recoup that money on the large center piece models.
Absolutely, and this is why going with smaller unit sizes and possibly skirmish style are sensible moves. But none of this requires bubble worlds or fantasy space marines. I can deal with drastic overhaul of the rules, I'd probably even welcome it, but destruction of the setting is a deal breaker.
If GW cannot make money from their current model, they need to revisit how they made money in the past - not create something new and untested or you could possibly accelerate the 8th ed effect.
They need to get back to the time where the game was dominating Europe. Destroying everything in the hopes of making something that is completely untried, especially given GW's track record with newer rules systems, is not the way to revitalize Fantasy, its just the way to burn whatever is left into the ground.
You guys realize that ship has sailed, right? That the age of the Internet, Kickstarter and steampunk miniatures wargaming has completely obsoleted the old GW way that you long for.
If GW cannot make money from their current model, they need to revisit how they made money in the past - not create something new and untested or you could possibly accelerate the 8th ed effect.
They need to get back to the time where the game was dominating Europe. Destroying everything in the hopes of making something that is completely untried, especially given GW's track record with newer rules systems, is not the way to revitalize Fantasy, its just the way to burn whatever is left into the ground.
You guys realize that ship has sailed, right? That the age of the Internet, Kickstarter and steampunk miniatures wargaming has completely obsoleted the old GW way that you long for.
Why? None of that has any bearing on the way that the game was in 6th edition.
Why does any of that invalidate a return to a game model that had fewer models per side and was more focused on tactical play?
You guys realize that ship has sailed, right? That the age of the Internet, Kickstarter and steampunk miniatures wargaming has completely obsoleted the old GW way that you long for.
There is not one Kickstarter company that has anything remotely resembling a collection of miniatures, and there are many people (like me) who simply find steampunk unappealing.
It's not very exciting for me to see a Kickstarter startup with 3 miniatures, no matter how pretty, or one boardgame. I need to see a realistic path to hundreds of miniatures (at least WMH size) and a solid amount of fluff before I become invested in a game world. Believe it or not, there are some people that find small companies unattractive, because they don't have a regular release schedule, and you never know if they'll be around in a few years. And what if the only sculptor is hit by a truck, or wins the lottery?
The only real competition to 40k/WHFB in the modelling world is WMH and Reaper, and they really only compete on the small miniature scale. They just don't have enough larger miniatures. Plus, nobody else does multipart plastic yet, which is pretty key to the whole modelling thing. All of the board games and small scale squad games won't ever grow to the size of GW, unless they adopt some of GW's escalation practices, because you just can't sell enough people enough stuff to be a hundred million dollar a year company.
I think I am overly optimistic but I cannot see GW abandoning Large scale rank and file Warhammer. I know they are cray cray! but I cant imagine they are that crazy... right..
To have pumped out so many models and units in recent months with square bases leads me to believe both formats will be supported.
Its not far fetched either, and I guess we will not know until its official.
What is interesting is the new models come with rules and combined stat blocks in the box. If there is anything I am most interested in is how they plan to handle pre-existing stat blocks aka Mournfang and Demigrypgh riders. I think things of that nature would be hotter topics. Will they stream line all that stuff? or is just all going away.
@competition I think GW is in a pretty good spot for mould quality on there plastic sprues. Which sucks because until another company can come out with the scale range/quanity/quality I think GW gets the freedom to price hike. I have limited experience in this but off the top of my head I think Avatars of War would be the only next up company with good detail, but are there models not fixed position? I guess I lump GW into a different level because of all the extra bits their sprues provide.
A new system with a few factions would make sense.
This could help to develop a tight rule set, see WMH.
It would then be clear that there will model and units which are no longer promoted.
Death By Monkeys wrote: Can you make a small, elite WHFB army? Sure, but it's harder to do than in 40k.
Harder? When a 40k army can be just a handful of IKs, I'd suggest it's flat out impossible to make a WFB army that is smaller and more elite.
Dwarves, my army is just war machines and a few dudes, makes 2000 points.
I said "smaller", not "shorter".
Those Imperial Knight Titans are 350-400 pts per model, and have the firepower of 2 main battle tanks. They're very badass.
For 1500 pts, it's 4 models. For 1850 pts, bump to 5 models. Do your Dorfs compare to that?
Several editions ago, it was possible to create a 3-4 model 2000 point Tzeentch Warriors of Chaos list. I honestly cam't remember which edition exactly though.
Death By Monkeys wrote: Can you make a small, elite WHFB army? Sure, but it's harder to do than in 40k.
Harder? When a 40k army can be just a handful of IKs, I'd suggest it's flat out impossible to make a WFB army that is smaller and more elite.
Dwarves, my army is just war machines and a few dudes, makes 2000 points.
I said "smaller", not "shorter".
Those Imperial Knight Titans are 350-400 pts per model, and have the firepower of 2 main battle tanks. They're very badass.
For 1500 pts, it's 4 models. For 1850 pts, bump to 5 models. Do your Dorfs compare to that?
The problem being that those four models are $140 each, so the four of them cost $560. Which, seeing as how the original point was the fact that getting a usable, average sized army was too expensive, doesn't really help your side. An average sized army should not require a half a grand or more investment. Which for most games is not an issue.
Death By Monkeys wrote: Can you make a small, elite WHFB army? Sure, but it's harder to do than in 40k.
Harder? When a 40k army can be just a handful of IKs, I'd suggest it's flat out impossible to make a WFB army that is smaller and more elite.
Dwarves, my army is just war machines and a few dudes, makes 2000 points.
I said "smaller", not "shorter".
Those Imperial Knight Titans are 350-400 pts per model, and have the firepower of 2 main battle tanks. They're very badass.
For 1500 pts, it's 4 models. For 1850 pts, bump to 5 models. Do your Dorfs compare to that?
Several editions ago, it was possible to create a 3-4 model 2000 point Tzeentch Warriors of Chaos list. I honestly cam't remember which edition exactly though.
Probably 5th, but could be further than that since I recall you still had to have some kinds of troops in those days.
Death By Monkeys wrote: Can you make a small, elite WHFB army? Sure, but it's harder to do than in 40k.
Harder? When a 40k army can be just a handful of IKs, I'd suggest it's flat out impossible to make a WFB army that is smaller and more elite.
Dwarves, my army is just war machines and a few dudes, makes 2000 points.
I said "smaller", not "shorter".
Those Imperial Knight Titans are 350-400 pts per model, and have the firepower of 2 main battle tanks. They're very badass.
For 1500 pts, it's 4 models. For 1850 pts, bump to 5 models. Do your Dorfs compare to that?
Several editions ago, it was possible to create a 3-4 model 2000 point Tzeentch Warriors of Chaos list. I honestly cam't remember which edition exactly though.
You also had HE Dragon Princes that actually rode, you know, dragons.
Chopxsticks wrote: On the topic of pricing I cant help but notice when price is mentioned its also mentioned along side quantity of models required. So is it a price issue or is it a model count issue?
I have to say model count. I know I dont speak for everyone but a lower model count table top game is just what I need. We talk about breathing new life, I for one have a handful of friends that have been enjoying my collection and wanting to play, but a $100 investment in books before you even get to the models is very off putting.
As for price, I can justify the cost if I dont need as many models, I just bought the Dragon Ogres last night for a Pathfinder game, and the level of detail is amazing, the extra bits, the options, I dont know what other company Im gonna get that from. I would use GW models to proxy other games in a heart beat.
Those Dark Elf Witches, would love a box! $50 (online) for 10, ouch, yes, BUT if you only need 5 for a table top game and could make 5 of each, $50 for the enjoyment of painting and kit bashing those models would be fine imo. Knowing you need 40 for a current game is ball busting..
Having said that though, if the game is to be played large skirmish than ya, price needs to drop alot, make core cheaper and recoup that money on the large center piece models.
Absolutely, and this is why going with smaller unit sizes and possibly skirmish style are sensible moves. But none of this requires bubble worlds or fantasy space marines. I can deal with drastic overhaul of the rules, I'd probably even welcome it, but destruction of the setting is a deal breaker.
So much this. I'd love for GW to refocus on smaller games(if they're genuinely not capable of supporting big and small at the same time any more for Fantasy), but the only reason I've stayed invested with GW for so long despite their abysmal business decisions and awful customer relations is their IP. If they take that away - and there's no point in folk dissembling, literally ending the world then advancing the timeline a couple of centuries off-screen to come back with new factions is effectively scrapping the Warhammer setting - then the question is whether they gain enough people from A; 40K players who like the idea of Fantasy Space Marines, B; old Fantasy players who don't care about the setting at all, and C; totally new people, to offset those they'll lose as a result of removing the one thing left that was keeping them around.
I distinctly remember planning an Empire Army for 5th, based around an Lord on Emperor Dragon supported by a handful of Handgunners and another handful of Halberds. But that would still have been 2 dozen models.
Lizardmen would have been similar with a SMP, skinks and Stegadons.
mmmh, so a possibility could be a move towards the Confrontation model with stats and cards in each unit box. Then allow people to field what they want with in an army (+allies) with reduced options. The FOC could be eliminated by using points to reduce liklihood of spamming tough units.
A move towards unit by unit alternating between places on an established workable rule set could be a lot of fun.
The problem being that those four models are $140 each, so the four of them cost $560. Which, seeing as how the original point was the fact that getting a usable, average sized army was too expensive, doesn't really help your side. An average sized army should not require a half a grand or more investment. Which for most games is not an issue.
Anyone who isn't prepared to spend $500+ should not even consider Warhammer Fantasy Battle or Warhammer 40k. Really, these are $1,000+ games to have a competent army, and another $500 a year, minimum, to keep up. For collectors (who basically want most of the current stuff), it's 2-3 times that *per faction*.
For people who are really into the hobby, $1,000 just in hobby stuff unrelated to actual models of any company is just the tip of the iceberg.
Incidentally, if you want to play XB1 or PS4, you'll blow $400-$500 on your initial purchase, another $50 a year in subscription, and probably at least $200 a year on just 3 games, that on average provide less than 100 hours of entertainment.
Chopxsticks wrote: Not to bring up Warmachine yet again... but there is something to be said for a system that rewards you for not taking multiple of the same model
To be fair though, this isn't exactly the case. Warmachine has Force Allocation, so you can't take multiples without some theme lists that basically restrict you to only that (Butcher2's theme force springs to mind). A lot of it also has to do with the fact most infantry are only good or better with their UA, and most of the time the UA is limited to 1, so you only take one unit.
I believe he's talking about theme forces as rewarding you for playing in theme.
I think the closest thing to it in 40k are those dataslates, and now battle-forged vs. unbound.
Yodhrin wrote: So much this. I'd love for GW to refocus on smaller games(if they're genuinely not capable of supporting big and small at the same time any more for Fantasy), but the only reason I've stayed invested with GW for so long despite their abysmal business decisions and awful customer relations is their IP. If they take that away - and there's no point in folk dissembling, literally ending the world then advancing the timeline a couple of centuries off-screen to come back with new factions is effectively scrapping the Warhammer setting - then the question is whether they gain enough people from A; 40K players who like the idea of Fantasy Space Marines, B; old Fantasy players who don't care about the setting at all, and C; totally new people, to offset those they'll lose as a result of removing the one thing left that was keeping them around.
I don't see why Games Workshop can't build a good set of skirmish rules that exclude flyers and models larger than dreadnought-sized, where the units are de-escalated, and the point values of the games are much smaller. Kind of like Kill Team, but with more sophisticated rules for squad combat (go back to RT days when every model had its own action, move, etc.).
The models could be existing models, so basically, you can use your space marines or orks in both skirmish games and in megapocalypse battles -- just using different rules.
I believe he's talking about theme forces as rewarding you for playing in theme.
I think the closest thing to it in 40k are those dataslates, and now battle-forged vs. unbound.
Formations give you some pretty kickass bonuses, too. The practicallity of it is, if you want to play unbound, there will be few play partners for you. I can't even remember the last time I saw a truly unbound game (I'm not including games where one person says its fine when their opponent is not quite within a CAD configuration, because of lack of models, or whatever).
Yodhrin wrote: I don't see why Games Workshop can't build a good set of skirmish rules that exclude flyers and models larger than dreadnought-sized, where the units are de-escalated, and the point values of the games are much smaller. Kind of like Kill Team, but with more sophisticated rules for squad combat (go back to RT days when every model had its own action, move, etc.).
A Warmachine-like game structure where you have one critically important central figure, a battlegroup of elite models, and then basically generic support surrounding that nucleus would port seamlessly into most of GW's game system.
HQ: Keep this guy alive or you lose the game. He's a combat badass so strike the balance between utilizing his awesomeness and putting him at risk.
Honor Guard/Retinue: These guys get specific special bonuses from the HQ. Maximize synergy.
Support: Generic Marine Ulysses will sacrifice for the cinematic climax!... again. He's totally not expendable, though. Totally.
I think that's what the GW force org was originally meant to do, promote a game structure. It ultimately became a balance mechanic that limited what sort of spam a player was capable of doing.
Yodhrin wrote: So much this. I'd love for GW to refocus on smaller games(if they're genuinely not capable of supporting big and small at the same time any more for Fantasy)
I don't see why Games Workshop can't build a good set of skirmish rules that exclude flyers and models larger than dreadnought-sized, where the units are de-escalated, and the point values of the games are much smaller. Kind of like Kill Team, but with more sophisticated rules for squad combat (go back to RT days when every model had its own action, move, etc.).
The models could be existing models, so basically, you can use your space marines or orks in both skirmish games and in megapocalypse battles -- just using different rules.
40k is a skirmish game. You can play Kill Team games of 750, 500, 400, 250 pts just fine. You don't have to take Flyers or Knights, if you don't want to. Personally, I'm a fan of 40k games for 750 pts, minimum 2 Troops, 0-1 HQ, 0-2 other. Try it - it's fast and fun. It doesn't need more chrome added.
The problem being that those four models are $140 each, so the four of them cost $560. Which, seeing as how the original point was the fact that getting a usable, average sized army was too expensive, doesn't really help your side. An average sized army should not require a half a grand or more investment. Which for most games is not an issue.
Anyone who isn't prepared to spend $500+ should not even consider Warhammer Fantasy Battle or Warhammer 40k. Really, these are $1,000+ games to have a competent army, and another $500 a year, minimum, to keep up. For collectors (who basically want most of the current stuff), it's 2-3 times that *per faction*.
For people who are really into the hobby, $1,000 just in hobby stuff unrelated to actual models of any company is just the tip of the iceberg.
Incidentally, if you want to play XB1 or PS4, you'll blow $400-$500 on your initial purchase, another $50 a year in subscription, and probably at least $200 a year on just 3 games, that on average provide less than 100 hours of entertainment.
I'm not really complaining about the price, hell, I just spend $500 on Forgeworld last night. However my point is that the barrier to entry to these games is fairly silly, as even the "low model count armies" don't gain you any kind of benefit in price, the way JohnHwangDD was implying as those models increase considerably in price as they increase in points. I think it would be brilliant if GW left Fantasy the way it is and used this new layout in a similar, but smaller scale game. As it stands now a ten man box of <insert core of choice here> is essentially useless. But, if they used this new setup as a skirmish game where a box of a given unit was all you needed to make that unit, it would drastically lower the barrier of entry. Then, once the person has a sizable force for the skirmish game, I'm willing to bet that they would look at the idea of getting a another few boxes to play a small game of traditional Fantasy as rather reasonable.
Just about every other miniatures game out there has a entry level of roughly $50, WM/H, X-Wing, Infinity, MERCS. ect. Every one of those, and others, you can pick up a starter force for a reasonable amount. Often for any faction you wish to play. Fantasy and 40K lack those cheap entry forces that allow players to impulse buy their way into the game, and I think that is a big part of what is hurting them lately. If a new person comes into the shop and wants to try out a game, which ones are they going to gravitate towards, the one where they have to spend $50 to learn how to play, or the one where they have to spend $500 to learn how to play?
And I think that your comparison to a game console is rather flawed. Yes, it has a high start up cost, but that cost is split between something that functions as a game console, a DvD/Blu-ray player, a device that allows you to use your streamer of choice, and a bunch of other things that I honestly have no interest in. The cost is further split for each game that you buy, as while you have to spend money to buy the game itself, the percentage that you spend to play a game is reduced with each new one. Have you ever seen someone buy a game console just to play a single game? That would actually be a more apt analogy than your current one. With Fantasy and 40K you can spend $500 to get a single playable list of average size, and often you pay more than that.
I'm sorry, but did GW discontinue Isle of Blood or whatever the last WFB starter set was? Do you really need to buy all of that stuff a la carte to start Fantasy? Or can you split a starter with a buddy for ~$50 each, and get playing fairly quickly?
JohnHwangDD wrote: I'm sorry, but did GW discontinue Isle of Blood or whatever the last WFB starter set was? Do you really need to buy all of that stuff a la carte to start Fantasy? Or can you split a starter with a buddy for ~$50 each, and get playing fairly quickly?
Assuming you want those factions... which not everyone does.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I'm sorry, but did GW discontinue Isle of Blood or whatever the last WFB starter set was? Do you really need to buy all of that stuff a la carte to start Fantasy? Or can you split a starter with a buddy for ~$50 each, and get playing fairly quickly?
Only if you're willing to do so with Skaven and High Elves. Which is assuming that one person wants one and one person wants the other, and they are starting at the same time. That's kind of the issue. The idea is relatively sound, but GW goes about it in a less than practical way. Meanwhile other systems have starters for each faction, similar to the "battalion boxes" from GW, but you'll notice that those cost $100 or more, and aren't a legal, fuctional army outside of unbound. I'm not even going into the usability, as most starter sets have the issue of being... less than stellar when it comes to the synergy of the contents.
I never viewed the starter box as an entry point into the system, more of an additional means to fill out your model count should you already being playing the starter box army. Would you also no need the $46 rule book for Skaven/High elves on top of the $100 for the start box? I have not purchased a starter box does it come with rules for the models/faction rules/magic item/spell list within? if not that $100 start box is now $200 =/
Warhams-77 wrote: Tomorrow's White Dwarf confirms round bases for Warhammer Fantasy
Source: Tabletopwelt.de Forum
This chafes my balls... why would they not release previous models with both bases if they knew they were doing this. I was literally going to go buy the VerminLord today from my lfg, wanna make a bet there is no round base in the box?
Automatically Appended Next Post: The only other thing I can make from this is they will in fact still support a game based around square bases. Or they are truly just ass holes...
Oh dear god, why?! I am not re-basing my fantasy armies...Once you go there, you cant go back to play 8th edition games... really bummed to see my bell and furnace on oval bases....
The decision to show two sets of bases opens up so many more questions... Well played GW, well played..
Aside from wanting to kick a dog if I have to re-base all my models, I will look into the positive side of this and Round bases have Far more options for custom inserts. So there is that I guess. Lol
Yes, but that could possibly be a change to those model's rules. They're IIRC the only models that don't have a specific unit type, and are thus Unique.
Maybe they're getting made into a unit that is on a round base and operates singly.
Grey Templar wrote: Yes, but that could possibly be a change to those model's rules. They're IIRC the only models that don't have a specific unit type, and are thus Unique.
Maybe they're getting made into a unit that is on a round base and operates singly.
Grey Templar wrote: Yes, but that could possibly be a change to those model's rules. They're IIRC the only models that don't have a specific unit type, and are thus Unique.
Maybe they're getting made into a unit that is on a round base and operates singly.
Mangler squigs and fanatics are on round bases.
The problem with this, Zach, is that they are just huge frames on wheels. They have no self-locomotion, and need a bunch of rats around it to push it around. Without ranking it up with a unit, how's that going to work? I guess we'll find out soon enough.
I'm probably the only one, but I like the look of those warmachines on round bases. I'm actually really looking forward to seeing where this madness leads.
angelofvengeance wrote: Feels like we're panicking for no reason here, They're big models and they're on round bases- oh noes!the world endeth!
The thing is, they need a unit to rank around them to actually push them into battle. I think they look good on round bases, I just don't get how it'll work for those particular models.
Deadawake1347 wrote:I'm not really complaining about the price, hell, I just spend $500 on Forgeworld last night. However my point is that the barrier to entry to these games is fairly silly, as even the "low model count armies" don't gain you any kind of benefit in price, the way JohnHwangDD was implying as those models increase considerably in price as they increase in points. I think it would be brilliant if GW left Fantasy the way it is and used this new layout in a similar, but smaller scale game. As it stands now a ten man box of <insert core of choice here> is essentially useless. But, if they used this new setup as a skirmish game where a box of a given unit was all you needed to make that unit, it would drastically lower the barrier of entry. Then, once the person has a sizable force for the skirmish game, I'm willing to bet that they would look at the idea of getting a another few boxes to play a small game of traditional Fantasy as rather reasonable.
Just about every other miniatures game out there has a entry level of roughly $50, WM/H, X-Wing, Infinity, MERCS. ect. Every one of those, and others, you can pick up a starter force for a reasonable amount. Often for any faction you wish to play. Fantasy and 40K lack those cheap entry forces that allow players to impulse buy their way into the game, and I think that is a big part of what is hurting them lately. If a new person comes into the shop and wants to try out a game, which ones are they going to gravitate towards, the one where they have to spend $50 to learn how to play, or the one where they have to spend $500 to learn how to play?
And I think that your comparison to a game console is rather flawed. Yes, it has a high start up cost, but that cost is split between something that functions as a game console, a DvD/Blu-ray player, a device that allows you to use your streamer of choice, and a bunch of other things that I honestly have no interest in. The cost is further split for each game that you buy, as while you have to spend money to buy the game itself, the percentage that you spend to play a game is reduced with each new one. Have you ever seen someone buy a game console just to play a single game? That would actually be a more apt analogy than your current one. With Fantasy and 40K you can spend $500 to get a single playable list of average size, and often you pay more than that.
Well, WMH using a $50 starter box (or half of a $2-faction $100 starter box) is not really any better than 40k with half of Dark Vengeance. It's technically playable, but not really against people who have proper armies. The essence of your point is perfectly valid though -- generally, XWing, Infinity, or MERCs are all much cheaper to play, and WMH is significantly less expensive.
Dark Vengeance is a perfectly legitimate way to get into the hobby & game with a friend, so long as you understand that you're probably going to roll (at least) another thousand bucks before you're happy with an army.
JohnHwangDD wrote:
40k is a skirmish game. You can play Kill Team games of 750, 500, 400, 250 pts just fine. You don't have to take Flyers or Knights, if you don't want to. Personally, I'm a fan of 40k games for 750 pts, minimum 2 Troops, 0-1 HQ, 0-2 other. Try it - it's fast and fun. It doesn't need more chrome added.
Sure, and I agree that KT is fun. I've played many KT games. However, it still uses 40k squad mechanics, which are built for a bunch of squads, rather than very few squads. My idea of "skirmish" is more like, a game playable with 10 or fewer models. In that case, things like unit coherency should be relaxed (though perhaps not eliminated), and each model in a unit should get an option to perform an action, separate from every other model.
The model count would look more like -- 3 basic troops, 1 sergeant, 1 special weapon; 2 dreadnought size (or bike); 1 commander type independent character; 1 psyker type independent character. Every unit gets its own move and AP, more like Rogue Trader.
Grey Templar wrote: Yes, but that could possibly be a change to those model's rules. They're IIRC the only models that don't have a specific unit type, and are thus Unique.
Maybe they're getting made into a unit that is on a round base and operates singly.
Mangler squigs and fanatics are on round bases.
The problem with this, Zach, is that they are just huge frames on wheels. They have no self-locomotion, and need a bunch of rats around it to push it around. Without ranking it up with a unit, how's that going to work? I guess we'll find out soon enough.
A wizard did it
But seriously, maybe they'll just become more like warmachines which just sit in the back and shoot.
Grey Templar wrote: Yes, but that could possibly be a change to those model's rules. They're IIRC the only models that don't have a specific unit type, and are thus Unique.
Maybe they're getting made into a unit that is on a round base and operates singly.
Mangler squigs and fanatics are on round bases.
The problem with this, Zach, is that they are just huge frames on wheels. They have no self-locomotion, and need a bunch of rats around it to push it around. Without ranking it up with a unit, how's that going to work? I guess we'll find out soon enough.
A wizard did it
But seriously, maybe they'll just become more like warmachines which just sit in the back and shoot.
*Holding my flame template touching the front of my furnace's base while it sits on a hill in the back* "Man, I just cant seem to get range on anything..."
Grey Templar wrote: Yes, but that could possibly be a change to those model's rules. They're IIRC the only models that don't have a specific unit type, and are thus Unique.
Maybe they're getting made into a unit that is on a round base and operates singly.
Mangler squigs and fanatics are on round bases.
The problem with this, Zach, is that they are just huge frames on wheels. They have no self-locomotion, and need a bunch of rats around it to push it around. Without ranking it up with a unit, how's that going to work? I guess we'll find out soon enough.
A wizard did it
But seriously, maybe they'll just become more like warmachines which just sit in the back and shoot.
*Holding my flame template touching the front of my furnace's base while it sits on a hill in the back* "Man, I just cant seem to get range on anything..."
Hey now it'll solve the issue of Schrodinger Screaming Bell. It is both part of the unit and not part of the unit...
Well, WMH using a $50 starter box (or half of a $2-faction $100 starter box) is not really any better than 40k with half of Dark Vengeance. It's technically playable, but not really against people who have proper armies. The essence of your point is perfectly valid though -- generally, XWing, Infinity, or MERCs are all much cheaper to play, and WMH is significantly less expensive.
Dark Vengeance is a perfectly legitimate way to get into the hobby & game with a friend, so long as you understand that you're probably going to roll (at least) another thousand bucks before you're happy with an army.
My point is that it's really the only valid option, one which only works if there are two people, one interested in Dark Angels, the other in Chaos.
There's no starter box for Dark Eldar, just to pick a random faction. However, there's a starter box for every faction aside from Mercs and Minions in WM/H. So if I wanted to start playing, and say, Cygnar interested me, I could grab the Cygnar starter for $50 and have a legal, if small and not optimal starting force. The closest I can do for say, Lizardmen in Fantasy is their battalion box, which is $110 and needs an additional purchase in the form of a lord or hero choice for a legal army. The best choice is probably an Oldblood at $15, making the starting price $125. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't spend that much to start as a new player unless I had several friends already playing.
Well, WMH using a $50 starter box (or half of a $2-faction $100 starter box) is not really any better than 40k with half of Dark Vengeance. It's technically playable, but not really against people who have proper armies. The essence of your point is perfectly valid though -- generally, XWing, Infinity, or MERCs are all much cheaper to play, and WMH is significantly less expensive.
Dark Vengeance is a perfectly legitimate way to get into the hobby & game with a friend, so long as you understand that you're probably going to roll (at least) another thousand bucks before you're happy with an army.
My point is that it's really the only valid option, one which only works if there are two people, one interested in Dark Angels, the other in Chaos.
There's no starter box for Dark Eldar, just to pick a random faction. However, there's a starter box for every faction aside from Mercs and Minions in WM/H. So if I wanted to start playing, and say, Cygnar interested me, I could grab the Cygnar starter for $50 and have a legal, if small and not optimal starting force. The closest I can do for say, Lizardmen in Fantasy is their battalion box, which is $110 and needs an additional purchase in the form of a lord or hero choice for a legal army. The best choice is probably an Oldblood at $15, making the starting price $125. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't spend that much to start as a new player unless I had several friends already playing.
Well, you can also buy Stormclaw or Deathstorm, and have Space Wolves, Orks, Blood Angels, or Tyranids, too -- and have a legal formation (if not optimal). They all come with a manual, identical to the full size BRB in content. Most people would also buy at least one codex. With WMH, most people would buy the rulebook, and maybe their faction book. The problem is, if you're not playing with another person with very constrained units (just like WMH starter box), you'll probably lose most (all?) of your games and lose interest.
On any of the GW boxes, you get way, way better value in models as compared to WMH, or Infinity (Corvus Belli starter box). If you only want one faction, and are enterprising, you can (easily) sell all the stuff that's brand new on sprue. In fact, with Deathstorm, you can easily recover $60 (Canadian) just for carnifex and rulebook; and usually someone will pick up the genestealers and warriors for at least a few bucks. Or you can just model them for fun!
All things being equal though, the Covus Belli starter box from Infinity is probably the best, playable value, IMO.
JohnHwangDD wrote:
40k is a skirmish game. You can play Kill Team games of 750, 500, 400, 250 pts just fine. You don't have to take Flyers or Knights, if you don't want to. Personally, I'm a fan of 40k games for 750 pts, minimum 2 Troops, 0-1 HQ, 0-2 other. Try it - it's fast and fun. It doesn't need more chrome added.
Sure, and I agree that KT is fun. I've played many KT games. However, it still uses 40k squad mechanics, which are built for a bunch of squads, rather than very few squads. My idea of "skirmish" is more like, a game playable with 10 or fewer models. In that case, things like unit coherency should be relaxed (though perhaps not eliminated), and each model in a unit should get an option to perform an action, separate from every other model.
The model count would look more like -- 3 basic troops, 1 sergeant, 1 special weapon; 2 dreadnought size (or bike); 1 commander type independent character; 1 psyker type independent character. Every unit gets its own move and AP, more like Rogue Trader.
I totally misunderstood what you meant by Kill Team before. Thanks for clarifying that you want to play Mordheim / Necromunda / Inquisimunda scale games for less than a dozen models per side.
If that's where you're looking, then yes, coherency doesn't belong and you process individual models.
I totally misunderstood what you meant by Kill Team before. Thanks for clarifying that you want to play Mordheim / Necromunda / Inquisimunda scale games for less than a dozen models per side.
If that's where you're looking, then yes, coherency doesn't belong and you process individual models.
Yeah, you got it
I mean, all it would cost GW is to pump out another $50 rulebook for less than a dozen model per side games, and it would give people a way to get started in the 40k hobby without having to buy, model, and paint a zillion units at a thousand bucks. Plus, it would be fun to do, in the same way that WMH is a far more easily transportable game (if I don't want to carry boxes of models).
Just seen that image on warseer of the screaming bells on round bases. Very weird since boneripper is on a normal base. Perhaps leakers saw this early and made up the rumour based on that? Only thing I can think of atm.
$135 for a very good force of 35pts that's actually competitive and comes with everything you need including basic rule book. And they're going to be doing these for all the factions.
It's what GW should be doing.
Thanks greatly for the info Warhams. I went ahead and updated the OP and thread title- the change in bases may obviously not be related to with the rumors of WHFB bubble wars but I want to make sure any and all news is kept up. It is at least consistent with the other rumors we've seen.
Talys wrote: Well, WMH using a $50 starter box (or half of a $2-faction $100 starter box) is not really any better than 40k with half of Dark Vengeance. It's technically playable, but not really against people who have proper armies. The essence of your point is perfectly valid though -- generally, XWing, Infinity, or MERCs are all much cheaper to play, and WMH is significantly less expensive.
Dark Vengeance is a perfectly legitimate way to get into the hobby & game with a friend, so long as you understand that you're probably going to roll (at least) another thousand bucks before you're happy with an army.
My point is that it's really the only valid option, one which only works if there are two people, one interested in Dark Angels, the other in Chaos.
There's no starter box for Dark Eldar, just to pick a random faction. However, there's a starter box for every faction aside from Mercs and Minions in WM/H. So if I wanted to start playing, and say, Cygnar interested me, I could grab the Cygnar starter for $50 and have a legal, if small and not optimal starting force. The closest I can do for say, Lizardmen in Fantasy is their battalion box, which is $110 and needs an additional purchase in the form of a lord or hero choice for a legal army. The best choice is probably an Oldblood at $15, making the starting price $125. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't spend that much to start as a new player unless I had several friends already playing.
If I want to start Flames of War, and I want to play Russians or Italians, isn't that purely a la carte??
If I want to play X-wing, that starter still has opposed models I don't need. And I'm pretty sure that 1 X-wing or 2 Fighters isn't a valid starter force for either faction.
I know Malifaux crews don't include a rulebook - you would have to buy that separately. I assume Infinity is the same way.
Do all of the WMH faction starters include rules? Or do you have to buy the main rulebook / 2-faction starter?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MWHistorian wrote: $135 for a very good force of 35pts that's actually competitive and comes with everything you need including basic rule book. And they're going to be doing these for all the factions.
It's what GW should be doing.
What the hell kind of Khador force is that? What are those Vostroyans / Valhallans doing there?
The Khador starter is 2 Heavies and a Warcaster. To scales up, add more Heavies!
Talys wrote: Well, WMH using a $50 starter box (or half of a $2-faction $100 starter box) is not really any better than 40k with half of Dark Vengeance. It's technically playable, but not really against people who have proper armies. The essence of your point is perfectly valid though -- generally, XWing, Infinity, or MERCs are all much cheaper to play, and WMH is significantly less expensive.
Dark Vengeance is a perfectly legitimate way to get into the hobby & game with a friend, so long as you understand that you're probably going to roll (at least) another thousand bucks before you're happy with an army.
My point is that it's really the only valid option, one which only works if there are two people, one interested in Dark Angels, the other in Chaos.
There's no starter box for Dark Eldar, just to pick a random faction. However, there's a starter box for every faction aside from Mercs and Minions in WM/H. So if I wanted to start playing, and say, Cygnar interested me, I could grab the Cygnar starter for $50 and have a legal, if small and not optimal starting force. The closest I can do for say, Lizardmen in Fantasy is their battalion box, which is $110 and needs an additional purchase in the form of a lord or hero choice for a legal army. The best choice is probably an Oldblood at $15, making the starting price $125. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't spend that much to start as a new player unless I had several friends already playing.
If I want to start Flames of War, and I want to play Russians or Italians, isn't that purely a la carte??
If I want to play X-wing, that starter still has opposed models I don't need. And I'm pretty sure that 1 X-wing or 2 Fighters isn't a valid starter force for either faction.
I know Malifaux crews don't include a rulebook - you would have to buy that separately. I assume Infinity is the same way.
Do all of the WMH faction starters include rules? Or do you have to buy the main rulebook / 2-faction starter?
All WMH starters come with quick start rules. Infinity rules are completely free online.
What are you on about with the Khador thing? Khador are an infantry faction and don't run lots of heavys well. That force in the box is a fairly competitive 35 point army.
When anyone sights an Ungor on a round base, let me know. I rebased them when they moved to the bigger WHFB base, then back to the smaller one, in their current incarnation. Won't do it again, even though I only have a few of the original metal mini's.
If its just warmarchines, or even big mini's, I'm cool with that.
While the picture is somewhat concerning, the overall message is that more information is needed. Now is not the time for pitchforks, wailing and gnashing of teeth, now is the time to figure out what we know.
Gotta just have patience. The rarest commodity online.
Well, WMH using a $50 starter box (or half of a $2-faction $100 starter box) is not really any better than 40k with half of Dark Vengeance. It's technically playable, but not really against people who have proper armies. The essence of your point is perfectly valid though -- generally, XWing, Infinity, or MERCs are all much cheaper to play, and WMH is significantly less expensive.
Dark Vengeance is a perfectly legitimate way to get into the hobby & game with a friend, so long as you understand that you're probably going to roll (at least) another thousand bucks before you're happy with an army.
My point is that it's really the only valid option, one which only works if there are two people, one interested in Dark Angels, the other in Chaos.
There's no starter box for Dark Eldar, just to pick a random faction. However, there's a starter box for every faction aside from Mercs and Minions in WM/H. So if I wanted to start playing, and say, Cygnar interested me, I could grab the Cygnar starter for $50 and have a legal, if small and not optimal starting force. The closest I can do for say, Lizardmen in Fantasy is their battalion box, which is $110 and needs an additional purchase in the form of a lord or hero choice for a legal army. The best choice is probably an Oldblood at $15, making the starting price $125. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't spend that much to start as a new player unless I had several friends already playing.
Well, you can also buy Stormclaw or Deathstorm, and have Space Wolves, Orks, Blood Angels, or Tyranids, too -- and have a legal formation (if not optimal). They all come with a manual, identical to the full size BRB in content. Most people would also buy at least one codex. With WMH, most people would buy the rulebook, and maybe their faction book. The problem is, if you're not playing with another person with very constrained units (just like WMH starter box), you'll probably lose most (all?) of your games and lose interest.
On any of the GW boxes, you get way, way better value in models as compared to WMH, or Infinity (Corvus Belli starter box). If you only want one faction, and are enterprising, you can (easily) sell all the stuff that's brand new on sprue. In fact, with Deathstorm, you can easily recover $60 (Canadian) just for carnifex and rulebook; and usually someone will pick up the genestealers and warriors for at least a few bucks. Or you can just model them for fun!
All things being equal though, the Covus Belli starter box from Infinity is probably the best, playable value, IMO.
You would have a point if those weren't (for patented GW reasons) limited edition and therefore only available by the whims of eBay or similar site now. And again, it's $125 for Deathstorm and Stormclaw, which you can get back if you sell off the other half. But don't you think it'd be a good idea if they came out with a budget starter where you don't have to sell off the other half after purchasing the whole thing?Seems like a hassle for the newer players.
I got into WM/H through one of those starters because it caught my eye, and cost as much as a single unit for 40K. Never once did I have any problem finding people willing to play quick little battlebox games. However, I don't know anyone who wants to play 40K or Fantasy at 500 points. Hell, there's even a format for larger battlebox style games in WM/H.
Honestly, I find it somewhat confusing that you're arguing against the idea of having Kill Team and an equivalent style game for Fantasy be more supported and promoted to help pull in new players. Do you really think that the starting point of several hundred dollars doesn't turn people off to the game before they even give it a shot?
Edit: Anyway, I think I've posted far enough off topic here. If you like I'd be happy to start another thread where we can discuss it more. I'm sure everyone else would appreciate this one sticking more to the rumors and new information for Fantasy's future.
pretre wrote: I'm gonna have to dig up who the big proponents of pancake were.
inb4 Natfka.
The hilarious thing about pancake edition, however, is that it not only was a pretty good-looking forged piece of rules, it also was considerably better than the actual rules GW published.
Why would you bring up Natfka? He doesn't make rumours, he just gathers them. He never takes credit for it, unlike some other sites.
If we had pancake edition, I in most cases would have stayed with 40K and maybe spent a lot of money on it. On that note, I wonder how much GW lost from other people for what they do now and what they could have had if they gave what we wanted.
You would have a point if those weren't (for patented GW reasons) limited edition and therefore only available by the whims of eBay or similar site now. And again, it's $125 for Deathstorm and Stormclaw, which you can get back if you sell off the other half. But don't you think it'd be a good idea if they came out with a budget starter where you don't have to sell off the other half after purchasing the whole thing?Seems like a hassle for the newer players.
I got into WM/H through one of those starters because it caught my eye, and cost as much as a single unit for 40K. Never once did I have any problem finding people willing to play quick little battlebox games. However, I don't know anyone who wants to play 40K or Fantasy at 500 points. Hell, there's even a format for larger battlebox style games in WM/H.
Honestly, I find it somewhat confusing that you're arguing against the idea of having Kill Team and an equivalent style game for Fantasy be more supported and promoted to help pull in new players. Do you really think that the starting point of several hundred dollars doesn't turn people off to the game before they even give it a shot?
Edit: Anyway, I think I've posted far enough off topic here. If you like I'd be happy to start another thread where we can discuss it more. I'm sure everyone else would appreciate this one sticking more to the rumors and new information for Fantasy's future.
No, not disagreeing with you at all against having a small scale game for Fantasy to promote pulling in new players. I think that would be a great thing.
I was just pointing out that there are options for starting up 40k on the cheap, that are about as bad as starting up some of the other games on the cheap. The Deathstorm and Stormclaw boxes are still for sale at many retailers. While I think they are great model value and good dollar value, I don't actually think they are a good way to get into the game.
Chopxsticks wrote: The decision to show two sets of bases opens up so many more questions... Well played GW, well played..
I'm not sure if it's well played when you consider that it's going to cause a lot of people to stop buying anything until they know what's happening.
I don't like much of these rumours at all. I think I'll just wait it out and see what happens, I'm fully expecting to put the last of my Warhammer armies in a box never to be touched again.
The Khador starter is 2 Heavies and a Warcaster. To scales up, add more Heavies!
Sure, if you want a terrible Khador force. Khador is really all about the infantry.
The fact that any WM force can be all about the infantry is a travesty of what the game became from what it was originally sold as (a Warcaster, a Heavy, and 1+ other Jacks in a box)..
The Khador starter is 2 Heavies and a Warcaster. To scales up, add more Heavies!
Sure, if you want a terrible Khador force. Khador is really all about the infantry.
The fact that any WM force can be all about the infantry is a travesty of what the game became from what it was originally sold as (a Warcaster, a Heavy, and 1+ other Jacks in a box)..
Huh? WMH, especially Khador is very infantry based. Jacks are like tanks in WWII, a tank surrounded by infantry. Jacks are on the promotional stuff a lot because they're flashier, but the game's always been about combined arms and using different types of units in conjunction with one another.
Davor wrote: Why would you bring up Natfka? He doesn't make rumours, he just gathers them. He never takes credit for it, unlike some other sites.
Natfka may not like it, but he is a rumor monger. Because he posts all sorts of stuff under the heading 'anonymous source of faeit 212', he is no different than people like Darnok (who posts about what his birdies told him) or any of the other rumor mongers with 'sources'. He just chooses to deny that he is a rumor monger despite the evidence.
Davor wrote: Why would you bring up Natfka? He doesn't make rumours, he just gathers them. He never takes credit for it, unlike some other sites.
Natfka may not like it, but he is a rumor monger. Because he posts all sorts of stuff under the heading 'anonymous source of faeit 212', he is no different than people like Darnok (who posts about what his birdies told him) or any of the other rumor mongers with 'sources'. He just chooses to deny that he is a rumor monger despite the evidence.
Warhams-77 wrote: Tomorrow's White Dwarf confirms round bases for Warhammer Fantasy
Source: Tabletopwelt.de Forum
This chafes my balls... why would they not release previous models with both bases if they knew they were doing this. I was literally going to go buy the VerminLord today from my lfg, wanna make a bet there is no round base in the box?
Automatically Appended Next Post: The only other thing I can make from this is they will in fact still support a game based around square bases. Or they are truly just ass holes...
They are probably just allowing you to use whatever you want. Just like the non-answer we got on rebasing to 32mm.
Davor wrote: Why would you bring up Natfka? He doesn't make rumours, he just gathers them. He never takes credit for it, unlike some other sites.
Natfka may not like it, but he is a rumor monger. Because he posts all sorts of stuff under the heading 'anonymous source of faeit 212', he is no different than people like Darnok (who posts about what his birdies told him) or any of the other rumor mongers with 'sources'. He just chooses to deny that he is a rumor monger despite the evidence.
Never seen it that way. I see your point.
Now if only Natfka would. He just deletes my posts on his blog if I bring it up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
blaktoof wrote: Its possible the round bases are just for larger models, and square bases will remain for rank and file models.
its also possible they are entirely optional like the new "heroic" base size in deathstorm with 32mm bases and what not.
Yeah. You totally got this in before me, but this is what I was trying to say.
There's no way in hell I'm going to rebase my mostly painted Ogre/N. Goblin armies though.
It also seems like it's going to cause a big headache for GW. How many customers for the next few years will buy a box of something for their new Warhammer Fantasy Bubbles game and find square bases?
The Khador starter is 2 Heavies and a Warcaster. To scales up, add more Heavies!
Sure, if you want a terrible Khador force. Khador is really all about the infantry.
The fact that any WM force can be all about the infantry is a travesty of what the game became from what it was originally sold as (a Warcaster, a Heavy, and 1+ other Jacks in a box)..
Huh? WMH, especially Khador is very infantry based. Jacks are like tanks in WWII, a tank surrounded by infantry. Jacks are on the promotional stuff a lot because they're flashier, but the game's always been about combined arms and using different types of units in conjunction with one another.
When I started playing WMH, there was no such thing as infantry. My Cryx consist of Dennie, 3 Slayers and a half-dozen chickens. Good stuff, played decently enough.
I'm glad I stopped buying before WMH became yet another bulk infantry game - I already have that from 40k and WFB, so no need to add to the pile.
The Khador starter is 2 Heavies and a Warcaster. To scales up, add more Heavies!
Sure, if you want a terrible Khador force. Khador is really all about the infantry.
The fact that any WM force can be all about the infantry is a travesty of what the game became from what it was originally sold as (a Warcaster, a Heavy, and 1+ other Jacks in a box)..
Huh? WMH, especially Khador is very infantry based. Jacks are like tanks in WWII, a tank surrounded by infantry. Jacks are on the promotional stuff a lot because they're flashier, but the game's always been about combined arms and using different types of units in conjunction with one another.
When I started playing WMH, there was no such thing as infantry. My Cryx consist of Dennie, 3 Slayers and a half-dozen chickens. Good stuff, played decently enough.
I'm glad I stopped buying before WMH became yet another bulk infantry game - I already have that from 40k and WFB, so no need to add to the pile.
angelofvengeance wrote: Maybe that's just how that person in the studio chose to base it? I wouldn't start panicking just yet.
Yeah, but what are the odds? I don't remember WD ever having round bases for fantasy photos. Why would an 'official' model for a game squarely set in the square bases format do this? Anything is possible, but this is not probable.
The Khador starter is 2 Heavies and a Warcaster. To scales up, add more Heavies!
Sure, if you want a terrible Khador force. Khador is really all about the infantry.
The fact that any WM force can be all about the infantry is a travesty of what the game became from what it was originally sold as (a Warcaster, a Heavy, and 1+ other Jacks in a box)..
Huh? WMH, especially Khador is very infantry based. Jacks are like tanks in WWII, a tank surrounded by infantry. Jacks are on the promotional stuff a lot because they're flashier, but the game's always been about combined arms and using different types of units in conjunction with one another.
When I started playing WMH, there was no such thing as infantry. My Cryx consist of Dennie, 3 Slayers and a half-dozen chickens. Good stuff, played decently enough.
I'm glad I stopped buying before WMH became yet another bulk infantry game - I already have that from 40k and WFB, so no need to add to the pile.
2-3 units is hardly a bulk infantry game.
Indeed. There's also plenty of Casters/Locks that do more for Jacks/Beasts than infantry and don't care if you bring them or not.
You just generally don't find them in Khador, bringing this back to my original point.
How many customers for the next few years will buy a box of something for their new Warhammer Fantasy Bubbles game and find square bases?
Quoted for unintentional and likely autocorrect hilarity. I suspect some folks reading this would prefer a grimdark bubbles game to what has been rumored.
Can we get the Warmachine discussion to go somewhere else? I'm sure when it was initially brought up, it probably had some sort of relevance to the topic at hand, but just perusing the last few comments seems its fallen off the rails.
How many customers for the next few years will buy a box of something for their new Warhammer Fantasy Bubbles game and find square bases?
Quoted for unintentional and likely autocorrect hilarity. I suspect some folks reading this would prefer a grimdark bubbles game to what has been rumored.
How many customers for the next few years will buy a box of something for their new Warhammer Fantasy Bubbles game and find square bases?
Quoted for unintentional and likely autocorrect hilarity. I suspect some folks reading this would prefer a grimdark bubbles game to what has been rumored.
Think it was intentional. That is the rumor, that factions will be on their own space borne landmass protected from the Warp/Space, by magical bubbles, colliding with other factions landmass.
How many customers for the next few years will buy a box of something for their new Warhammer Fantasy Bubbles game and find square bases?
Quoted for unintentional and likely autocorrect hilarity. I suspect some folks reading this would prefer a grimdark bubbles game to what has been rumored.
Think it was intentional. That is the rumor, that factions will be on their own space borne landmass protected from the Warp/Space, by magical bubbles, colliding with other factions landmass.
Was that the rumor? I thought the world was still intact, just mostly consumed by Chaos, with the bubbles moving around the surface.
Definitely the former. Inquis Bubbles of the Ordos Pufficus (also known as the Meaniehunters) hunting down the evil psychic xenos warlord Au'Mojo Un'JoJo would be epic! You'd just need to darken the colors on the pic and add a few skulls.
Just waiting now to see that the round base sizes will be different than 40k sized bases so demons won't be able to be swapped between universes easily.
Wfb 23, 28, 33, 43, 53 and 83 mm bases
W40k 25, 32, 40, 50, 60 mm bases
Theophony wrote: Just waiting now to see that the round base sizes will be different than 40k sized bases so demons won't be able to be swapped between universes easily.
Wfb 23, 28, 33, 43, 53 and 83 mm bases
W40k 25, 32, 40, 50, 60 mm bases
More likely Daemons will have to roll on a chart to determine their base size before each game, so you have to buy all the possible base sizes, because random + invalidating your models = fun!
You'll also have to buy Codex: Base Sizes and Warbubble Armies: Bases to get all the rules.
Don't forget to pre-order your limited edition copies that include a signed print of base artwork depicting the triumphant victory of the round-base army over their evil square-base kin! Direct-only, limited to 3 copies worldwide, only $6000!
So... round bases.... bubble realities that collide for a fight.
Is this really GW's way of combining Fantasy and 40k? "Your Skaven vs my Dark Angels? Game on!"
So glad after playing every version of FB since the box set I bought in 1984, that I tried (and loved) KoW this summer.
Gimgamgoo wrote: So... round bases.... bubble realities that collide for a fight.
Is this really GW's way of combining Fantasy and 40k? "Your Skaven vs my Dark Angels? Game on!"
So glad after playing every version of FB since the box set I bought in 1984, that I tried (and loved) KoW this summer.
That brings back memories of the old gw forums, where someone was complaining that his lizardmen kept getting rolled by his friend's necrons. My advice didn't go over well with the mods, apparently.
The Khador starter is 2 Heavies and a Warcaster. To scales up, add more Heavies!
Sure, if you want a terrible Khador force. Khador is really all about the infantry.
The fact that any WM force can be all about the infantry is a travesty of what the game became from what it was originally sold as (a Warcaster, a Heavy, and 1+ other Jacks in a box)..
Huh? WMH, especially Khador is very infantry based. Jacks are like tanks in WWII, a tank surrounded by infantry. Jacks are on the promotional stuff a lot because they're flashier, but the game's always been about combined arms and using different types of units in conjunction with one another.
This is not how the game was pre-Superiority. There are lots of people that wish it stayed much more jack heavy. At the end of MK1 there was even an epithet for how infantry heavy the game had become: "Infantrymachine".
I personally always played very, very infantry heavy as the jacks were my least favorite part of the game (particularly heavies), but i played assassination casters like Deneghra1 and Caine2 that didn't like having an asston of heavies in tow, and had builds more suited towards other pieces to get the caster kill.
*shrug* Anywho, this is what JohnHwang is driving at when he refers to "travesty". He probably played the game early in Mk1 before the heavy infantry influx into the game, and fell more into the camp that liked more jacks. Just a guess.
Haight wrote: This is not how the game was pre-Superiority. There are lots of people that wish it stayed much more jack heavy. At the end of MK1 there was even an epithet for how infantry heavy the game had become: "Infantrymachine".
I personally always played very, very infantry heavy as the jacks were my least favorite part of the game (particularly heavies), but i played assassination casters like Deneghra1 and Caine2 that didn't like having an asston of heavies in tow, and had builds more suited towards other pieces to get the caster kill.
*shrug* Anywho, this is what JohnHwang is driving at when he refers to "travesty". He probably played the game early in Mk1 before the heavy infantry influx into the game, and fell more into the camp that liked more jacks. Just a guess.
Good guess, 100% accurate. I got in on the ground floor with Prime, and the subsequent meta swing got me out, in much the same way that the WFB shift from 8E to 9E will likely have similar type of fallout on the WFB crowd.
Right then, so, having read through the first few pages w/ all the edits leaves me with the conlusion that GW have, after saying that no armies were going to be squatted, turned around to all Bretonnian players and said a massive "£&%$ you". If six factions from WHFB are going to be in this new thing, that means that (pre end-times) nine armies are being dropped (as of where we are in ET afaik, that drops to 5 being abandoned due to certain groups of armies armies being amalgamated).
Well, I've been waiting for a new Bretonnian book for NINE YEARS (Brets got a new book for 6th, the last decent edition, and sod all since) and now we're getting dropped. Could it be because they've failed to sell anything of note for an outdated army for the past decade? Well, despite continuing to support Fantasy though out that drought I can safely say I'm abandoning ship.
A few friends and myself have been writing a new set of rules for the 40k setting, a rule set that has more to do with the reality of how combat works; it's far more complicated than modern 40k but it works for the most part, and once that's done I suspect we may start work on a new Fantasy rule set, so that cavalry makes sense again if nothing else.
I don't understand why they are moving to round bases? I get it if they want to do lord of the rings style movement trays but at the same time this would mean that either
A) individual models will be priced more to reduce unit size OR
B) my unit of 60 stormvermin with round bases will now be friggen 1ft x 1ft wide because of the huge space between them.
I just don't understand why they would change it? What purpose will it serve other than to piss people off who own 500+ square based models for a single army who don't want to switch bases? (This is me lol)
I'm actually a fan of having multiple armies in one book. Means I can buy 1 book and start 3 armies with it reducing cost. Assuming the books run about $70 like the end times softbacks
Eruantien wrote: Right then, so, having read through the first few pages w/ all the edits leaves me with the conlusion that GW have, after saying that no armies were going to be squatted, turned around to all Bretonnian players and said a massive "£&%$ you". If six factions from WHFB are going to be in this new thing, that means that (pre end-times) nine armies are being dropped (as of where we are in ET afaik, that drops to 5 being abandoned due to certain groups of armies armies being amalgamated).
Well, I've been waiting for a new Bretonnian book for NINE YEARS (Brets got a new book for 6th, the last decent edition, and sod all since) and now we're getting dropped. Could it be because they've failed to sell anything of note for an outdated army for the past decade? Well, despite continuing to support Fantasy though out that drought I can safely say I'm abandoning ship.
A few friends and myself have been writing a new set of rules for the 40k setting, a rule set that has more to do with the reality of how combat works; it's far more complicated than modern 40k but it works for the most part, and once that's done I suspect we may start work on a new Fantasy rule set, so that cavalry makes sense again if nothing else.
Broseph of Nazareth, from what I've read, while things are bad, Bretonnians aren't being squatted, but slotted. See what I did there? I'm the king of suBtle puns. It seems more likely Bretonnians will be lumped in with the Empire's remnants (and theorised with the Dwarves too). This might actually mean you're more likely to get an update, as they'll have to put new entries for the units into the Army Book: Mankind-is-still-relevant, and in future they can just release one off kits instead of making you wait nearly a decade
Honestly, I'm not sure I would put too much thought into the Doombells being put onto those oval bases(because that's what they are: the big oval base).
It was not uncommon to see bolt throwers mounted on 60mm round bases in White Dwarf some years ago.
But the Stormfiends being on a square/rectangular base kind of makes me question the whole Basegate thing...
Kanluwen wrote: Honestly, I'm not sure I would put too much thought into the Doombells being put onto those oval bases(because that's what they are: the big oval base).
It was not uncommon to see bolt throwers mounted on 60mm round bases in White Dwarf some years ago.
But the Stormfiends being on a square/rectangular base kind of makes me question the whole Basegate thing...
Ya but the screaming bell goes into a unit so a round base just doesn't work nor does it make any sense?
Doesn't phase me too much. I'll either keep playing 8th with a bunch of people who are currently intent on doing just that, play 9th with squares or go back to maining Malifaux.
This radical of a shift WILL piss off a LOT of their fan base & GW, while still top dog, is no longer the only guy. Mantic, Privateer Press, Wyrd, all 3 plus others (Infinity, Wild West Exodus) are gaining a lot of people from GW repeatedly stabbing themselves in the gut while screaming "IT'S FOR YOUR OWN GOOD! IT'S FOR YOU OWN GO-OO-OOD!"
Kanluwen wrote: Honestly, I'm not sure I would put too much thought into the Doombells being put onto those oval bases(because that's what they are: the big oval base).
It was not uncommon to see bolt throwers mounted on 60mm round bases in White Dwarf some years ago.
But the Stormfiends being on a square/rectangular base kind of makes me question the whole Basegate thing...
Ya but the screaming bell goes into a unit so a round base just doesn't work nor does it make any sense?
But from what I've heard the rules are changing & so far it is the only 'unique' unit type.
I'm not too familiar with all the different base sizes, but wouldn't you just be able to fit round based fantasy models on movement
trays just as easily as square based ones?
YEARS (Brets got a new book for 6th, the last decent edition, and sod all since) and now we're getting dropped. Could it be because they've failed to sell anything of note for an outdated army for the past decade? Well, despite continuing to support Fantasy though out that drought I can safely say I'm abandoning ship. 
