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Post by: Sigvatr
 Malika2 wrote:Hmm, and now to relate this to WFB. Why do I think that the 10th edition of Warhammer will include the C'tan as the cause of all this madness? 
Not possible. The C'tan were mostly killed by The Deceiver's schemes long before the inferior races were even born. The Necrons were already fast asleep when the weaker ones started to thrive so them mixing up WHFS isn't going to happen.
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Post by: Vermis
Gragga Da Krumpa wrote:
I was looking into warhammer an alternative to 40k with more structured movement, regiments, block formations, etc. Total War on a table.
If thats not what the game will be, then I will play whatever edition it is that plays like that.
Or one of many excellent, minis-compatible fantasy wargames that play like that. 
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Listening to the most recent 40k Radio and they recommended for people who are looking to get into Fantasy to NOT do so right now because "something is coming" (they wouldn't go further to not reveal too much and risk their contact).
Just if anyone was wanting some more confirmation that there were changes coming.
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Post by: Kanluwen
You mean if anyone was wanting some more rumors that there were changes coming.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
 Kanluwen wrote:You mean if anyone was wanting some more rumors that there were changes coming.
It's 40k Radio. I don't know that they've missed anything they've "predicted" yet.
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Post by: RiTides
I think the fact that there are "changes coming" is pretty much indisputable at this point, Kan 
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Post by: malfred
So when will this all come to light? June? May?
Need to know when to check back into the thread because it seems pretty pointless to follow from here on out.
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Post by: Kanluwen
ClockworkZion wrote: Kanluwen wrote:You mean if anyone was wanting some more rumors that there were changes coming.
It's 40k Radio. I don't know that they've missed anything they've "predicted" yet.
They've gotten five misses, sixty-one trues.
So they HAVE missed some things.
RiTides wrote:I think the fact that there are "changes coming" is pretty much indisputable at this point, Kan
Did I say there were no changes coming?
Nope! Just saying that as of right now we have nothing but rumors.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
The only change big enough to tell people to not start WFB that I can think of is a new edition.
And good to know about the misses. I wasn't aware of that.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
MonumentOfRibs wrote:I'm quite apprehensive about this. Im all for change and all, but if the Lizardmen have indeed been squatted then that is a slap in the face to customer relations.
Regarding the limited runs of models, would GW manage to retain ownership of the IP if they no longer produce the model?? If that be the case I could see some of the quality third party manufacturers doing their own versions of the most popular models once they are no longer available
Yes, out of print/production does not equal out of copyright.
I don't know what the copyright duration is for models, but for most things it's decades and decades.
That being said GW can only copyright one interpretation of an idea, they cannot copyright 'spikey dude on spikey horse'. So long as a 3rd party is not recasting their figures GW has a very weak case (though they can try to bully small manufacturers) Automatically Appended Next Post: Wonderwolf wrote: Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Becuase when he left, GW expunged his works from the records and didn't use any of what he was working on when he left at all. Oh no.
And as pointed out above, he's said he wrote it.
Well, they did a whole campaign series around Blood Angels & Necrons bro-fisting, including a BL advent story with a Necrons/Blood Angels strike cruiser called Fratrem Pugno, literally "Brother Fist" or, if you're so inclined "Bro Fist"
Assuming this is true, it is my new favorite thing in the whole multiverse for at least the next day or two.
Have a thumbs up Black Library  Automatically Appended Next Post:  Charles Rampant wrote:
Actually, fratrem pugno means "I fight my brother". Source: Latin degree.
This is getting off topic, however.
My whole night is ruined.
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Post by: ProtoClone
OK, so I just heard about this End Time. I am really interested in the story of it more than the game, where can I get a summary of what is/has happened?
I have seen 1d4chan had a summary...but I kind of was hoping for something a little more serious in it's telling.
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Post by: AlexHolker
 ProtoClone wrote:OK, so I just heard about this End Time. I am really interested in the story of it more than the game, where can I get a summary of what is/has happened?
I have seen 1d4chan had a summary...but I kind of was hoping for something a little more serious in it's telling.
This Warseer Thread might help. From Giant Stegadon's summary of the first three books:
Giant Stegadon wrote:NAGASH: Archaon is in the north, Chaos people are pumped they'll win. Mazdamundi declares the Great Plan of the Old Ones has failed & Lizardmen must exodus (no more info). Orcs may be on a big Waaagh. Brettonia is in civil war with the Vampire part of Brettonia, the Bret king (Louen) is probably dead, and it turns out The Green Knight is revealed to be Gilles le Breton. Tilea & Estalia are completely overrun by Skaven. Kislev is leveled by Chaos.
Because of Chaos rising earlier than expected, Nagash needs to be brought back now. Manfred allies with Arkan & they get crap for Nagash. Nagash is resurrected with 8 mortals of divine blood. Teclis doesn't tell anyone the Elven princess isn't the daughter of the Phoenix King Finubar (who might be dead) but really she's Tyrion's secret kid with the High Elf Queen so that screws up Nagash's thing (Curse of Aenarion). Balthasar Gelt makes an awesome magic wall to fend off the initial Chaos hordes, but in a series of wacky misunderstandings ends up a Necromancer & flies away with the Vlad (he's back too- United Undead will likely be anyone's allies in 9th). The Beast magic guy takes over as head of magic. Karl Franz is seriously wounded in a big battle at the magic wall. Nagash goes down to crush the resistant Tomb Kings. Probably consumes the Dwarven ancestor god Valaya, definitely consumes the Khermian Death god. Nagash is now the container for Death magic. At the end, Chaos is probably going to get Settra on their team (so Undead will be anyone's allies in 9th).
GLOTTKIN: Nurgle's army rolls out into the Empire first. Marienburg is destroyed-turns out there was a Vampire there all along too but he sucks at fighting. The Glottkin (3 brothers, one is the monster) lead a 3 prong army to tear up the Empire. Talabheim is sacked. Empire & Brettonia fight the Chaos Legion at Aldorf (yeah the capital) & its gets trashed. The Bret king we thought was dead, isn't & bleeds light, but dies for real this time. Festus dies. Kurt Helborg gets stabbed in the eye & dies. Karl Franz comes back but dies. THEN a comet thing comes down & he's back & super awesome & (almost) kills Glottkin but they cast a spell & escape. Aldorf (& most of the Empire) was afflicted by weird Nurgle thorns growing everywhere is suddenly cleansed and everything is okay. Except tons of people are dead & everything is wrecked. Vampires continue to fight with humans (please buy some skeletons!).
KHAINE: This focuses only on the Elves. Valkia leads a Khorne army into Naggaroth (she dies) & they destroy 3 of the big tower cities. Malekith decides to just abandon the whole thing & invade Ulthuan (why not?)- he's also pissy with his mom. Ulthuan defends against a big demon invasion then the Druchii show up. Teclis sides with Malekith (he has a big plan-also Finubar is for real dead) & a gigantic civil war erupts (Imrik goes with Malekith). Tyrion leads the other half & pulls the Sword of Khaine (Widowmaker)- Tyrion is also super sad about his kid dying. The Wood Elves show up. Tyrion becomes as mean as Malekith but he's still supposed to be the bad guy since he's under Khaine influence (some Dark Elves are now with him too).
For some reason, Malekith was always supposed to be the Phoenix King & walks through the flames so he's the real king now (deal with it). All the Elves end up at the Magic Vortex & fight. Oh that Vortex? The thing that's held Chaos at bay this whole time? Teclis' plan is to undo it & infuse mortals with the winds of magic to fight Chaos-this is somehow a legitimate plan. The Shadow King guy kills Tyrion with an arrow & also shoots Malekith for kicks but he lives. Morathi, who was influencing Tyrion, gets taken by Slaanesh. Ulthuan sinks since the Vortex is gone- with Teclis sitting next to Tyrion/Khaine going with it (Teclis' staff now has/had Light Magic btw). Everyone uses the World Roots to escape to Athel Loren- since that's now the only Elf place left GW hasn't wiped off the map. King Malekith marries the Wood Elf queen girl (he's the new Shadow container, she's the Life one). All 100 Elves that survived this now get to live in the forest. The Beast Men make an appearance for them to murder. Its implied Karl Franz got Heavens Magic when he was resurrected in Glottkin & turns out Lileath used all her power to cure the Empire so she's not a god anymore (I don't understand how gods work here now). A bunch of other crap happens with Elven gods dying & new ones being appointed (Araloth...)- a poorly thought out cyclical metaphor. This is the worst book.
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Post by: Fayric
 ClockworkZion wrote:Listening to the most recent 40k Radio and they recommended for people who are looking to get into Fantasy to NOT do so right now because "something is coming" (they wouldn't go further to not reveal too much and risk their contact).
Just if anyone was wanting some more confirmation that there were changes coming.
Hm, I was thinking the opposite. If you want to get in to (warhammer) Fantasy, this is your last chanse. I dont expect the model range to survive intact for long given these rumors.
If ulthuan has sunken, Id better get my hands on some white lions before they all drown (despite having 100+ unpainted other high elves in waiting)
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Post by: AlexHolker
 Fayric wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:Listening to the most recent 40k Radio and they recommended for people who are looking to get into Fantasy to NOT do so right now because "something is coming" (they wouldn't go further to not reveal too much and risk their contact).
Just if anyone was wanting some more confirmation that there were changes coming.
Hm, I was thinking the opposite. If you want to get in to (warhammer) Fantasy, this is your last chanse. I dont expect the model range to survive intact for long given these rumors.
If ulthuan has sunken, Id better get my hands on some white lions before they all drown (despite having 100+ unpainted other high elves in waiting)
If you want the miniatures for their own sake, sure. If the Witch Elves weren't ridiculously overpriced I'd be buying them now before GW took a sledgehammer to the moulds. But if I actually expected to use them in the game, buying them now would leave me with a bunch of shelfwarmers once 9th edition came in and cut three factions down to three units.
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Post by: Lockark
 AlexHolker wrote: Fayric wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:Listening to the most recent 40k Radio and they recommended for people who are looking to get into Fantasy to NOT do so right now because "something is coming" (they wouldn't go further to not reveal too much and risk their contact).
Just if anyone was wanting some more confirmation that there were changes coming.
Hm, I was thinking the opposite. If you want to get in to (warhammer) Fantasy, this is your last chanse. I dont expect the model range to survive intact for long given these rumors.
If ulthuan has sunken, Id better get my hands on some white lions before they all drown (despite having 100+ unpainted other high elves in waiting)
If you want the miniatures for their own sake, sure. If the Witch Elves weren't ridiculously overpriced I'd be buying them now before GW took a sledgehammer to the moulds. But if I actually expected to use them in the game, buying them now would leave me with a bunch of shelfwarmers once 9th edition came in and cut three factions down to three units.
I don't think they will cut any plastic units, especially newer plastics like witches. I'm expecting anything not in plastic that's still fine cast to get axed at this point.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
This is Games "Destroy remaining stock rather than sell it at a discount" Workshop, so I wouldn't put it past them.
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Post by: Grot 6
Saw the books today.
Say goodbye to fantasy....
Put a fork in it, its done.
Hostility isn't going to be even the level to describe the ravenous hordes that are going to be baying at it in the next few months. The above description is about on par with what's going on and then the stuff coming up is pretty much on par with what we've seen in the past with TSR, trying to justify selling everything with D and D tagged on it for fun.
Its Deja Vu all over again.
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Post by: Accolade
 Grot 6 wrote:Saw the books today.
Say goodbye to fantasy....
Put a fork in it, its done.
Hostility isn't going to be even the level to describe the ravenous hordes that are going to be baying at it in the next few months. The above description is about on par with what's going on and then the stuff coming up is pretty much on par with what we've seen in the past with TSR, trying to justify selling everything with D and D tagged on it for fun.
Its Deja Vu all over again.
Wait wait wait- are you saying you've seen the 9th edition book(s)?
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Post by: AlexHolker
 Lockark wrote:I don't think they will cut any plastic units, especially newer plastics like witches. I'm expecting anything not in plastic that's still fine cast to get axed at this point.
It's possible that you are correct. If only there was some way for Games Workshop to assuage these fears, to let people know that their strategy for WHFB - which of late could be accurately described as "apocalyptic" - is nothing to worry about.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
 Accolade wrote: Grot 6 wrote:Saw the books today.
Say goodbye to fantasy....
Put a fork in it, its done.
Hostility isn't going to be even the level to describe the ravenous hordes that are going to be baying at it in the next few months. The above description is about on par with what's going on and then the stuff coming up is pretty much on par with what we've seen in the past with TSR, trying to justify selling everything with D and D tagged on it for fun.
Its Deja Vu all over again.
Wait wait wait- are you saying you've seen the 9th edition book(s)?
Yeah, please clarify. You saw what books exactly?
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Post by: Grot 6
Accolade wrote: Grot 6 wrote:Saw the books today.
Say goodbye to fantasy....
Put a fork in it, its done.
Hostility isn't going to be even the level to describe the ravenous hordes that are going to be baying at it in the next few months. The above description is about on par with what's going on and then the stuff coming up is pretty much on par with what we've seen in the past with TSR, trying to justify selling everything with D and D tagged on it for fun.
Its Deja Vu all over again.
Wait wait wait- are you saying you've seen the 9th edition book(s)?
I'm saying go talk to your FLGS and see what they have to tell you. Books I'm referring to are the ones Giant Stegadon discussed above. These are the first couple. we're going to see a couple more, then the set up for 9th... Nurgles mom has got it going on, though.
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Post by: Accolade
Oh man, you had me shocked there for a second thinking that there already sightings of this book which isn't rumored to be out till April-ish.
I'm familiar with all of the End Times books' lore; it all seems to be setting up for the what's rumored to be going on in 9th.
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Post by: Charles Rampant
I'm kinda bored of waiting for 9th edition now. My fantasy-hobby-fu is so low right now, I actually started painting a Weirdboy today. A weirdboy! A unit usually so low on my painting priorities that I had to re-read his unit entry to find out what his special rules were!
I'd just like to know what the devil is going on.
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Post by: Accolade
EDIT: Wrong thread
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Post by: Alpharius
I'm sorry - but is the Grotster talking about the End Times books that have been coming out for months now already?
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Post by: AlexHolker
 Alpharius wrote:I'm sorry - but is the Grotster talking about the End Times books that have been coming out for months now already?
Yes.
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Post by: Accolade
Hey, did you guys hear GW is doing a massive narrative campaign called Storm of Chaos where they allow their whole customer base to help direct the action?
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Post by: Eldarain
I did. I think it's going to be great. With Gav Thorpe at the narrative helm what could go wrong?
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Post by: Torga_DW
Grot 6 wrote:Saw the books today.
Say goodbye to fantasy....
Put a fork in it, its done.
Hostility isn't going to be even the level to describe the ravenous hordes that are going to be baying at it in the next few months. The above description is about on par with what's going on and then the stuff coming up is pretty much on par with what we've seen in the past with TSR, trying to justify selling everything with D and D tagged on it for fun.
Its Deja Vu all over again.
Do you think they'll include a pamphlet that lets you try to play what remains of your 8th edition armies in the new 9th edition called ravenous hordes?
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Nope, no Ravening Hordes. GW learned that with the WFB 5E-6E changeover, and will never do that again.
WFB 8E Army Books will be compatible with 9E rules, but 8E Army Books will not be so competitive with true 9E Armies. 
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Post by: Kirasu
Im still surprised people are still thinking Lizardmen (Or any army for that matter) are going to be squatted. It's an extremely unlikely possibility.
Squats were a 2nd edition idea from 15 years ago. They had basically no model support, the rules were boring and uninspired and their fluff was terrible.. It's not a surprise they were dropped. Just because something happens once to an army that like 3 people played doesn't mean it'll happen again.
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Post by: ImAGeek
 Kirasu wrote:Im still surprised people are still thinking Lizardmen (Or any army for that matter) are going to be squatted. It's an extremely unlikely possibility.
Squats were a 2nd edition idea from 15 years ago. They had basically no model support, the rules were boring and uninspired and their fluff was terrible.. It's not a surprise they were dropped. Just because something happens once to an army that like 3 people played doesn't mean it'll happen again.
I agree with most of it, but Squats actually had quite a lot of models available.
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Post by: zedmeister
Kirasu wrote:
Squats were a 2nd edition idea from 15 years ago. They had basically no model support, the rules were boring and uninspired and their fluff was terrible.. It's not a surprise they were dropped. Just because something happens once to an army that like 3 people played doesn't mean it'll happen again.
Not really. I'll leave this response from Jervis that he posted on the old Epic:A forums on why the Squats were dropped and it isn't because they weren't selling well or didn't have the players:
"I know I shouldn't get drawn on this... but... can't... resist
Seriously, a couple of points just so you can have an informed debate based on the real reasons that Squats are no longer available. Be warned, it is going to be hard reading for people that like the Squat background.
First of all, Squats were *not* dropped because they were not selling well. There were then, and are now, plenty of other figure ranges that sell in the sort of % quantities that the Squats pulled down, especially when you look across all of the ranges produced by GW rather than just those for 40K.
No, the reason that the Squats were dropped was because the creatives in the Studio (people like me, Rick, Andy C, Gav etc) felt that we had failed to do the Dwarf 'archetype' justice in its 40K incarnation. From the name of the race (Squats - what *were* we thinking?!?!) through to the short bikers motif, we had managed to turn what was a proud and noble race in Warhammer and the other literary forms where the archetype exists, into a joke race in 40K. We only fully realised what we had done when we were working on the 2nd edition of 40K. Try as we might, we just couldn't work up much enthusiasm for the Squats. The mistake we made then (deeply regretted since) was to leave them in the background and the 'get you by' army list book that appeared. With hindsight, we should have dropped the Squats back then, and saved ourselves a lot of grief later on.
Anyway, the Squats made it into 2nd edition, and since we were doing army books for each of the races, we started to try and figure out what to do with them. Unfortunately we just couldn't figure out a way to update them and get them to work that we felt was good enough. The 'art' of working on an army as a designer is to find the thing that you think is cool and exciting about an army, and work it up into a strong theme. This 'muse' didn't strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background, we kept doing other army books instead, with stuff we did feel inspired by.
Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendency to focus on the big 'hand-made' war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we *should* have done with the Squats in 40K.
In the end (and it took years to really get to the roots of the problem) this led to a realisation that we were going to have to drop the Squats in their 'Squat' form from the 40K background. There was little point having a major race that we weren't willing to make an army book for, and their inclusion in the background meant that people kept asking us when we'd do a Squat Codex. Instead we decided that we'd write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet. This would give us the option in the future to return to making a race based on the Squat archetype for 40K. This race was given the name of Demiurg, and a certain amount of preliminary work was done to get a 'feel' for what the race would be like. At present the only hint of the Demiurg in 40K is the Demiurg spaceship for BFG. However, we do have this race 'in our back pocket' as a possible new race for 40K, or an interesting character model in Inquisitor, or whatever. So far the Demiurg have lost out to other projects, and it may be that their time never actually comes, as they will have to win through on their merits, not simply because we once made some Squat models in the past. At present, I have to say that it is more likely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain prejudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early days, so it may be that the Squats/Demiurg end up remaining a footnote in the history of the 40K galaxy. Only time will tell...
I'll finish off by saying that whatever we decide to do 'officially', there is nothing stopping players with Squat armies from using them, either in Epic or 40k for that matter. There is no GW 'rule' against using old Citadel Miniatures, as long as you use them with existing army lists and in a way that won't cause confusion for other players. I recommend taking a positive stand by saying "Have you seen these cool old models? They're called the Squats and GW used to make them back in the late eighties/early nineties. I love 'em, so I count them as Imperial Guard and use them with the current rules..." Put like this I can't imagine that anyone would stop you from using your army.
Best regards,
Jervis Johnson
Head Fanatic
...
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Post by: Kirasu
The other part of my comment stated that their rules were uninspired and their fluff was terrible. That's what Jervis also spoke about. I recommend reading the whole thing.
In either case, very different from lizard men. Sorry to offend squat supporters (at least I didn't mention battle sisters).
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Post by: zedmeister
Kirasu wrote:The other part of my comment stated that their rules were uninspired and their fluff was terrible. That's what Jervis also spoke about. I recommend reading the whole thing.
In either case, very different from lizard men. Sorry to offend squat supporters (at least I didn't mention battle sisters).
The 40k background was a bit naff but the stuff they wrote for Epic was pretty sweet. Anyway, my point was to show that a well selling line isn't enough to save it from extinction. So, Lizardmen going away? Plausible, but unlikely. Though, they did just end Dark Elves. Well, sort of, but the Elven aesthetic will definitely be different.
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Post by: Herzlos
Didn't the CHS thing show that Aztec-Lizards weren't that defendable? It could be that they've decided it's not unique enough and they've got no ideas what to do to change it.
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Post by: NunoTaborda
Well, I talked this weekend with a friend of mine that have a store.
I know for sure now, after seeing the replies of GW, that no army is going to disappear. Unless GW likes to lie to store owners xD
There are going to happen big changes, but not army going to disappear.
If I where you, I would not go away from this
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Post by: RoninXiC
Since they don't tell store owners pretty much anything.. lying might be the wrong word.
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Post by: Herzlos
They'll lie to store owners about new releases/stuff getting discontinued right up until it happens.
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Post by: Accolade
Yeah, they lie/omit detail to them all the time! 
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Post by: Fayric
NunoTaborda wrote:Well, I talked this weekend with a friend of mine that have a store.
I know for sure now, after seeing the replies of GW, that no army is going to disappear. Unless GW likes to lie to store owners xD
There are going to happen big changes, but not army going to disappear.
If I where you, I would not go away from this
I admit Im not up to date on the rumous, but the talk about skirmish and the known facts about what happens in end times indicate the setting will be far more focused on small warbands.
The elves and lizzies have no home, the empire lies in ruin, most big heroes dead, etc. I dont see any point making the game smaller if they still intend to keep all of their unselling boxes.
Sure they can say they wont remove any race/army, but they might still remove the major part of their model range.
They could have a single skink mercenary and claim Lizardmen are still actively in the game.
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Post by: ImAGeek
Yeah as said I wouldnt trust what GW store employees say about rumours as far as I could throw them. Nothing to do with them personally but GW don't actually tell them anything. They know as much as us really.
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Post by: Herzlos
They know less than us; I've tipped my local off to a few changes to let them stock up.
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Post by: angelofvengeance
Don't suppose there's been any further development with this?
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Post by: ImAGeek
If there was, I'm sure here would be the first place you'd see it
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Post by: Sidstyler
This 'muse' didn't strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background
lol, I can't imagine...not GW, no...
At present, I have to say that it is more likely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain prejudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early day
*Looks at current Necron range and sees "Tomb Kings in Spaaace!" all over the fething place*
Yeah...
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
I heard a confirmed rumor there are changes coming. 
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Post by: Wehrkind
A little late to the convo, but I wanted to respond to Navarro.
I think you are exactly right, except for this " And before you come and say you could always ignore the 9th and continue on 8th... That is not the point! "
In a way it is the point, but not the way the people making it think it is. It basically means "You can quit supporting the company and playing their current game, and instead play a game they do not sell." That is exactly what people will do, play a different game than GW wants to sell them, and that should be the problem from GW's perspective. GW does not sell "Warhammer: Classic" or reprints of older books. If you are playing old editions you might as well be playing Kings of War or historicals or something.
So as a response to "8th edition was the best game ever!" yea, it sort of works, but only in the "just stop buying stuff" sense. In response to "This is going to really hurt GW" it doesn't work at all.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendency to focus on the big 'hand-made' war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we *should* have done with the Squats in 40K.
With 40k now focused on updating Epic models in 28mm, perhaps FW and GW can bring Squats back?
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Post by: ProtoClone
AlexHolker wrote: ProtoClone wrote:OK, so I just heard about this End Time. I am really interested in the story of it more than the game, where can I get a summary of what is/has happened?
I have seen 1d4chan had a summary...but I kind of was hoping for something a little more serious in it's telling.
This Warseer Thread might help. From Giant Stegadon's summary of the first three books:
Giant Stegadon wrote:NAGASH: Archaon is in the north, Chaos people are pumped they'll win. Mazdamundi declares the Great Plan of the Old Ones has failed & Lizardmen must exodus (no more info). Orcs may be on a big Waaagh. Brettonia is in civil war with the Vampire part of Brettonia, the Bret king (Louen) is probably dead, and it turns out The Green Knight is revealed to be Gilles le Breton. Tilea & Estalia are completely overrun by Skaven. Kislev is leveled by Chaos.
Because of Chaos rising earlier than expected, Nagash needs to be brought back now. Manfred allies with Arkan & they get crap for Nagash. Nagash is resurrected with 8 mortals of divine blood. Teclis doesn't tell anyone the Elven princess isn't the daughter of the Phoenix King Finubar (who might be dead) but really she's Tyrion's secret kid with the High Elf Queen so that screws up Nagash's thing (Curse of Aenarion). Balthasar Gelt makes an awesome magic wall to fend off the initial Chaos hordes, but in a series of wacky misunderstandings ends up a Necromancer & flies away with the Vlad (he's back too- United Undead will likely be anyone's allies in 9th). The Beast magic guy takes over as head of magic. Karl Franz is seriously wounded in a big battle at the magic wall. Nagash goes down to crush the resistant Tomb Kings. Probably consumes the Dwarven ancestor god Valaya, definitely consumes the Khermian Death god. Nagash is now the container for Death magic. At the end, Chaos is probably going to get Settra on their team (so Undead will be anyone's allies in 9th).
GLOTTKIN: Nurgle's army rolls out into the Empire first. Marienburg is destroyed-turns out there was a Vampire there all along too but he sucks at fighting. The Glottkin (3 brothers, one is the monster) lead a 3 prong army to tear up the Empire. Talabheim is sacked. Empire & Brettonia fight the Chaos Legion at Aldorf (yeah the capital) & its gets trashed. The Bret king we thought was dead, isn't & bleeds light, but dies for real this time. Festus dies. Kurt Helborg gets stabbed in the eye & dies. Karl Franz comes back but dies. THEN a comet thing comes down & he's back & super awesome & (almost) kills Glottkin but they cast a spell & escape. Aldorf (& most of the Empire) was afflicted by weird Nurgle thorns growing everywhere is suddenly cleansed and everything is okay. Except tons of people are dead & everything is wrecked. Vampires continue to fight with humans (please buy some skeletons!).
KHAINE: This focuses only on the Elves. Valkia leads a Khorne army into Naggaroth (she dies) & they destroy 3 of the big tower cities. Malekith decides to just abandon the whole thing & invade Ulthuan (why not?)- he's also pissy with his mom. Ulthuan defends against a big demon invasion then the Druchii show up. Teclis sides with Malekith (he has a big plan-also Finubar is for real dead) & a gigantic civil war erupts (Imrik goes with Malekith). Tyrion leads the other half & pulls the Sword of Khaine (Widowmaker)- Tyrion is also super sad about his kid dying. The Wood Elves show up. Tyrion becomes as mean as Malekith but he's still supposed to be the bad guy since he's under Khaine influence (some Dark Elves are now with him too).
For some reason, Malekith was always supposed to be the Phoenix King & walks through the flames so he's the real king now (deal with it). All the Elves end up at the Magic Vortex & fight. Oh that Vortex? The thing that's held Chaos at bay this whole time? Teclis' plan is to undo it & infuse mortals with the winds of magic to fight Chaos-this is somehow a legitimate plan. The Shadow King guy kills Tyrion with an arrow & also shoots Malekith for kicks but he lives. Morathi, who was influencing Tyrion, gets taken by Slaanesh. Ulthuan sinks since the Vortex is gone- with Teclis sitting next to Tyrion/Khaine going with it (Teclis' staff now has/had Light Magic btw). Everyone uses the World Roots to escape to Athel Loren- since that's now the only Elf place left GW hasn't wiped off the map. King Malekith marries the Wood Elf queen girl (he's the new Shadow container, she's the Life one). All 100 Elves that survived this now get to live in the forest. The Beast Men make an appearance for them to murder. Its implied Karl Franz got Heavens Magic when he was resurrected in Glottkin & turns out Lileath used all her power to cure the Empire so she's not a god anymore (I don't understand how gods work here now). A bunch of other crap happens with Elven gods dying & new ones being appointed (Araloth...)- a poorly thought out cyclical metaphor. This is the worst book.
Thanks!
This is all kind of crazy really. Kind of like watching a movie that's trying to cram many stories into a short amount of time.
I am interested to see what happens with armies like Lizardmen.
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Post by: angelofvengeance
 JohnHwangDD wrote:Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendency to focus on the big 'hand-made' war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we *should* have done with the Squats in 40K.
With 40k now focused on updating Epic models in 28mm, perhaps FW and GW can bring Squats back?
You mean Demiurg?
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Post by: Kanluwen
Bear in mind that all the books are happening concurrently, not subsequently.
There is a pretty big timeframe--something like a year or two, as of now.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
No, "Squats".
I have no idea what "Demiurg" are, but they sound awful and bland. Like a cheap metal cover band.
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Post by: Malika2
JohnHwangDD wrote:No, "Squats".
I have no idea what "Demiurg" are, but they sound awful and bland. Like a cheap metal cover band.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Demiurg
They also have some models for Battlefleet Gothic:
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Post by: Crimson Devil
You mean "Had". They got dropped along with all specialist games.
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Post by: Vermis
Yeah. :( Pity. I thought they had the potential to inject just a little more 'hard' sci-fi into 40K, as asteroid miners or what-have-you.
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Post by: Mymearan
 Sidstyler wrote:This 'muse' didn't strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background
lol, I can't imagine...not GW, no...
At present, I have to say that it is more likely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain prejudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early day
*Looks at current Necron range and sees "Tomb Kings in Spaaace!" all over the fething place*
Yeah...
Except when Necrons were released, there were no "Tomb Kings".
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Post by: Accolade
Mymearan wrote: Sidstyler wrote:This 'muse' didn't strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background
lol, I can't imagine...not GW, no... At present, I have to say that it is more likely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain prejudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early day
*Looks at current Necron range and sees "Tomb Kings in Spaaace!" all over the fething place* Yeah...
Except when Necrons were released, there were no "Tomb Kings".
I think he's talking more about the transition for the Necrons from their original list and codex as a sort of Cthulu/Old Ones horror concept of soulless machines to the newer codex lore that is much more in the realm of Tomb Kings (zombie robots with their keepers). Plus the Tomb Kings have always existed in WHFB, just not as their own army list until about 2000 (although now they're being consolidated back, so...).
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Post by: Malika2
 Vermis wrote:Yeah. :( Pity. I thought they had the potential to inject just a little more 'hard' sci-fi into 40K, as asteroid miners or what-have-you.
Don't get me started on that one...
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Post by: Pacific
Vermis wrote:Yeah. :( Pity. I thought they had the potential to inject just a little more 'hard' sci-fi into 40K, as asteroid miners or what-have-you.
It's been done.. if you want this kind of thing, just check out Mantic's Forge Fathers range, which I think are pretty much what GW would have done if they had launched a millenium-friendly new version of Squats. Except the GW range would probably have a bunch of them riding a giant mole or something.
I had Squat armies for both 40k and Epic. The former was sold years ago, the latter quite recently. Stopped bothering waiting for GW to revisit the concept some years ago and haven't looked back, by and large the Mantic range are excellent and there are no doubt more of them on the way.
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Post by: Vermis
 Pacific wrote:[
It's been done.. if you want this kind of thing, just check out Mantic's Forge Fathers range
Mantic's flat-headed fantasy dwarfs with extra laser-gun bits? Not exactly what I envisaged, meself.
Malika: get started! Get started!
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Post by: Pacific
That was the original range Vermis, but it has come on quite a bit since then.
The Deadzone stuff in particular is awesome, with Exo Armour-esque guys and dwarves in overalls! (Which are painted orange of course..)
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Post by: Korinov
Yep, nowadays the Forge Fathers range has a pretty decent share of nice models.
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Post by: Vermis
Pacific wrote:That was the original range Vermis, but it has come on quite a bit since then.
Mmmyeah.
The Deadzone stuff in particular is awesome, with Exo Armour-esque guys and dwarves in overalls! (Which are painted orange of course..)
The Deadzone stuff is generally high quality and I think marks a turning point from earlier KoW... eccentricities. But when I lament the loss of Demiurg as squ... er... short space miners, that doesn't mean I have a hankering for fantasy Dwarfs in Spaaace, with stony statue-looking powered suits (6 for £10? That's not too shab... er, harrumph! What I meant to say was...), hammers hammers hammers, and beards agogo. (The brokkrs seem to have tech that's advanced to the Gilette/Wilkinson Sword level, but I dunno if that's a fair trade for the 4-foot Arnie look. And oh facepalm, they had to work the word 'huscarl' in there, didn't they...)
In other words, I completely understand Jervis' justifications for squatting the squats.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
Ain't no one want to see the squats back as much as me, but let's stay on topic.
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Post by: -Loki-
You do realise, of course, that you are responding to him saying models after the initial wave are better by posting a picture to a box from the initial wave right?
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Post by: The Shadow
What's the projected date for thus release? Summer, or earlier?
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Post by: gobskrag 'eadbasha
I think people were saying late May.
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Post by: weetyskemian44
Aside from all our bellyaches about round bases and rule changes, I am enthusiastic for a new range of minis for kit-bashing porpoises. They'll be too expensive for many wallets no doubt, but pretty.
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Post by: Crimson Devil
You leave the poor Porpoises alone!
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Post by: WhispererofTruth
Posting this has been long overdue, but I've never been one to actively partake in forum discussion due to time constraints more than anything. That being said I have a little information on 9th edition, information that will probably create more questions than it actually answers, but info which I hope can address some of the rumours about 9th itself.
One of the scariest rumours about 9th is undoubted that the mini ranges we know and love will be squatted, and this is correct, to an extent. The ranges will be getting completely revamped, some units will disappear into nothingness, new units will arise in wake of their fall and a select few may just survive the End Times. The essence of these lost unit, and the essence of warhammer itself will be kept alive in these new ranges however, you'll be able to see recognisable units from Oldhammer in Newhammer. One of the key driving motivators behind reducing the range is the cost of carrying such vast ranges, Warhammer in it's current state is not selling well enough to justify the cost, so compressing the range into factions will bare similar styles in order to save shelf space and hence the game some much needed room to breathe was seen as the way forward. This will also help to reduce the redundancy of similar unit types in the same army. Lets take Orcs and Goblins for example; You have Squig Herds, Squig Hoppers and Bosses on even bigger squigs all in one army. Three units all very similar in concept. Wouldn't it more sense from a business point of view to combine these three unit into one unit of let's say; Gobbos on Great Cave Squigs in order to remove redundancy and save shelf space? Absolutely and that's the sort of thing we'll be seeing in the future, a unit familiar in concept that combines several traditional ideas into one. In general though, the change to the ranges will take the opportunity to further entrench the IP, the units that survive the ET will be units that "define" their armies, things like common goblins will go the way of the squat. (Although will still be useable as I illustrate later.)
That being said, miniatures, and armies in general, will be taking forth new aesthetic styles due to the emergence of combined factions. New units for these factions will combine the look of all the current armies that make up that faction, and mood it into one new defining aesthetic that wouldn't look completely out of place in Oldhammer, yet still easily definable as something new. For a few of the future factions, we've already begun to see the emergence of this new look into the ranges in recent releases. With this change, you can also expect a evolution on the way Warhammer units look. The game will shift towards smaller elite types more in style with units like the Putrid Blightkings. From what I understood new models of say; Chaos Warriors and Black Orcs for example would become larger on an individual sense, but smaller as a unit where you might have only 5 models in the unit. This allows you too buy of box of say 20 goblins and still have that box represent a horde.
As armies go, your models will still be available in some form, just not the form you now recognise. There's no reason you can't use your old Human models to represent the new Human models in game. As for rebasing your models, will you have to rebase them? Well as I understood it, yes and no. From what I gathered the game was moving to a skirmish game format with options for models to rank up in slot-trays, so technically if you always kept your models in appropriately sized movement trays you be able to play with your old square based models, you just wouldn't be able to skirmish them. The option to rank up or skirmish, always he's to make the game scalable, and as such more open to beginners.
I hope that answers a few questions for you all.
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Post by: Lord Castellan
Will we still be able to buy 20mm square bases if this is true?
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Post by: Fenrir Kitsune
I'm sure the many many companies who supply bases will still sell them, yes.
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Post by: Flashman
WhispererofTruth wrote:From what I understood new models of say; Chaos Warriors and Black Orcs for example would become larger on an individual sense, but smaller but smaller as a unit where you might have only 5 models in the unit. This allows you too buy of box of say 20 goblins and still have that box represent a horde.
So... a unit of 5 Black Orcs will cost 30 odd quid now?
Yay.
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Post by: Accolade
 Flashman wrote:WhispererofTruth wrote:From what I understood new models of say; Chaos Warriors and Black Orcs for example would become larger on an individual sense, but smaller but smaller as a unit where you might have only 5 models in the unit. This allows you too buy of box of say 20 goblins and still have that box represent a horde.
So... a unit of 5 Black Orcs will cost 30 odd quid now?
Yay.
I haven't been able to say this in a while but...This is GREAT NEWS!
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Post by: Flashman
Accolade wrote: Flashman wrote:WhispererofTruth wrote:From what I understood new models of say; Chaos Warriors and Black Orcs for example would become larger on an individual sense, but smaller but smaller as a unit where you might have only 5 models in the unit. This allows you too buy of box of say 20 goblins and still have that box represent a horde.
So... a unit of 5 Black Orcs will cost 30 odd quid now?
Yay.
I haven't been able to say this in a while but...This is GREAT NEWS!
To be honest, as I've been saying in the other thread in Discussions, I would greatly prefer a low model count.
I just don't want to pay more for it!
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Post by: Accolade
Flashman wrote: Accolade wrote: Flashman wrote:WhispererofTruth wrote:From what I understood new models of say; Chaos Warriors and Black Orcs for example would become larger on an individual sense, but smaller but smaller as a unit where you might have only 5 models in the unit. This allows you too buy of box of say 20 goblins and still have that box represent a horde.
So... a unit of 5 Black Orcs will cost 30 odd quid now?
Yay.
I haven't been able to say this in a while but...This is GREAT NEWS!
To be honest, as I've been saying in the other thread in Discussions, I would greatly prefer a low model count.
I just don't want to pay more for it!
Well you're most likely right about it- these new kits will probably be Dire Avengers all over again. You'll see that box of five super-Black Orcs for $40, only to realize that was the price of the old ten-orc box.
In GW's mind, they've solved the problem by dropping the game to a much smaller size, reminiscent of WM-H, so units will have more value in the game itself. But all it will take a is an edition or two of the typical GW rules bloat and we'll be back to the same problem.
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Post by: Gimgamgoo
I have an old supplement from GW called "Warhammer Skirmish". I think it was from somewhere around 2001/2.
it allowed - shock horror - skirmish on square bases. It was full of great scenarios. I have a feeling it was developed by GW US. (Not got it to hand as I type - sorry).
Why all of a sudden do people think it's impossible to move a single mini around a board with a square base.
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Post by: Flashman
 Gimgamgoo wrote:Why all of a sudden do people think it's impossible to move a single mini around a board with a square base.
Not impossible, but multiple base to base contact is easier with round bases
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Post by: TheKbob
Or it's a case of doing "half fixes" that don't put down a hard enough stance create a cogent product. If GW is gonna fix Fantasy, then fix Fantasy. Delete what's necessary, change the rules accordingly alone with modeling requirements.
In an age filled with competing games that have hard and fast rules on modeling, basing, etc. and are succeeding, then GW should get with the program. Their wishy-washy stance is what's gonna be the final do in otherwise. Or rather let me put it this way, if I can play a game of anything else across the country and play it without any necessary questions on modeling, base sizes, army composition, or "how we want to play it," then that's GW's goal. Because the casual players can always modify it towards their groups taste (or play an older version). The game player and competitive gamer need the solid rules foundation for proper game design.
Games like Malifaux and Warmachine, that have a lot of pulse and aura effects, would not work if you said X" away from their base and the basing allowed for either square or circle bases. That's just one instance where it would be a loss. I'm sure there are more.
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Post by: NAVARRO
Flashman wrote:WhispererofTruth wrote:From what I understood new models of say; Chaos Warriors and Black Orcs for example would become larger on an individual sense, but smaller but smaller as a unit where you might have only 5 models in the unit. This allows you too buy of box of say 20 goblins and still have that box represent a horde.
So... a unit of 5 Black Orcs will cost 30 odd quid now?
Yay.
But those 5 Black orcs will come with special 35mm bases so they are kind of special and well worth the 50% gauge man!
In one stroke of genious GW will render your collections useless on the new edition. My 25 Black orcs in square bases will be to much so I will trash 20 and rebase 5... Maybe they will merge black Orcs with Orcs and savage orcs in a vanilla orc regiment. Brilliant.
Yes this make sense.
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Post by: SeanDrake
Hmmm this kinda makes sesnse I think you can see the start of it in the we eternal guard looking like high elf spearmen with bling.
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Post by: Kanluwen
SeanDrake wrote:Hmmm this kinda makes sense I think you can see the start of it in the we eternal guard looking like high elf spearmen with bling.
Have you seen the Eternal Guard?
The closest High Elf unit they look like is the Sisters of Avelorn, who were made to look more like Wood Elves than High Elves.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
 TheKbob wrote:Or it's a case of doing "half fixes" that don't put down a hard enough stance create a cogent product. If GW is gonna fix Fantasy, then fix Fantasy. Delete what's necessary, change the rules accordingly alone with modeling requirements.
I'm pretty sure that's precisely what GW is doing, based on the rumors.
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Post by: Talys
I have a lifetime supply of square bases. And several lifetimes' supplies of 25mm round bases :X
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Is it terrible that I am excited to play Kings of War for my former "mass battles" scale (since its super lean, movement/positioning is king rules better depict those kinds of battles IMO), and this as something altogether new?
I love Warmahordes on paper, but always find the lore, models, etc... very soul-less.
Something at that scale though, with a fresh take on GW world-building... might genuinely be something enjoyable to get into on Day 1.
I appreciate how this must upset old WHFB players, but the pure gamer in me is excited too.
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Post by: rabidaskal
WhispererofTruth wrote:The essence of these lost unit, and the essence of warhammer itself will be kept alive in these new ranges however
As armies go, your models will still be available in some form, just not the form you now recognise.
If this was supposed to assuage the fear of being squatted, I'm afraid its having rather the opposite effect (on me at least)
But hey even if the models are gone, their ESSENCE lives on so its all good.
Finally, as a marketing guy, I admire the hoops the copywriter had to jump through to somehow spin this is a positive light.
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Post by: WhispererofTruth
Some information I have on some of the factions;
The Chaos faction will be mostly Daemons, with a few tacked on units from the other two books. This of course means the Chaos faction will be the largest faction, but it will be joined by units which are firmly entrenched in the GW IP and as such can't be copied by other manufacturers. A certain aspect of Chaos is going the way of the squat for this very reason, Hint: The gods are still there. Due to the nature of the new world, or pocket worlds rather, where Chaos is everywhere, Daemons will form the bulk of the Chaos armies. Generic stuff like Warhounds won't be sticking around in place of units like Flesh Hounds.
All the Orc and Goblin concepts will be combined into singular new concepts. Savage/Orcs/Black Orcs becoming one type of Orc for example. I initially heard way back that two armies would be joining the O&G, one would replace trolls, the other would lend some of it's concepts to the new O&G while being squatted themselves. Although the nature of the rules would let you imitate that squatted faction in Newhammer. Squigs and other O&G beasties will be made more predominant in place of boars, due to their IP able nature. I also heard Orcs would become, "Orks", but I'm not entirely sure if that was a joke.
Alot of Undead units are very similar with the combined list and as such alot of units will be going away. Ushabti for example and the Casket/Black Coach which are fairly redundant in light of the Mortis Engine. The concept of constructs will stay around in some form or the other. The Morghasts for example.
Skaven keep their more tech and frankenstein-esque units to define the armies new look. Plaguey and sneaky Shaven take the back seat.
Warmachines in general will be mounted on other units, to again save shelf space, and also to suit the more mobile style of a skirmish game better.
Other than that all I know has already been said tbh or is blatantly obvious. (Elves are a faction and Snape killed Dumbledore.)
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Aspect of Chaos?
Elaborate.
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Post by: WhispererofTruth
Undivided
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Oh, well, yeah. Undivided has been gone for a well. It's been Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle, Tzeentch and unaligned (small 'u', not an "Undivided" force like it once was) for a while now. Years even. I remember having this drilled into me by the fine folks at FFG - never write "Undivided".
I was worried that you were going to say that one of the four Chaos Gods was going the way of Malal.
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Post by: WhispererofTruth
That's what I mean, no unaligned units. All units are marked.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Well that seems... pointless. Moorecock-ian shenanigans aside, GW's stamp on Chaos is pretty firm. Don't see why they'd need to remove anything.
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Post by: TheKbob
So this then assumes the Bretonnia may or may not be more than one box of horses, if that, and a line in the books? (still really glad I sold my army before I invested time into it...)
Where do Lizards land? Seems like a hard sell to have a limited run and a split between derpy plastic and the new big guys. Can't really slap IP on a big dinosaur and Aztec markings...
Where do Ogres land? Always one of my favorites as they defied the stupid amounts of models you'd need to have a good force. Loads of terribad old models cut, but the new big stuff is amazing.
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Post by: OgreChubbs
I still say the rumour mongers are twits and misunderstood the end times rumors and put them in 9th. But hell I am going to be banned from here and warseer when 9th comes out and nothing changes and I spend a couple of topics telling everyone how dumb they where and are lol.
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Post by: Accolade
OgreChubbs wrote:I still say the rumour mongers are twits and misunderstood the end times rumors and put them in 9th. But hell I am going to be banned from here and warseer when 9th comes out and nothing changes and I spend a couple of topics telling everyone how dumb they where and are lol.
OR, and I'm spit-balling here, you could *not* be a douche to other posters and you won't have to worry about getting banned. I mean, that's always an option.
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Post by: Leggy
 H.B.M.C. wrote:Well that seems... pointless. Moorecock-ian shenanigans aside, GW's stamp on Chaos is pretty firm. Don't see why they'd need to remove anything.
Generic barbarians, generic evil armoured warriors, generic evil Knights, goat men, minotaurs. They're models that I imagine are pretty hard to lock down the IP for, and form the core of two of the three chaos armies. I don't know if their removal is nessecary, per se, but I can see the thinking behind it.
*EDIT* especially if you replace them with some more specifically Warhammerish models, like the Skullcrushers of Khorne and the Putrid Blightkings
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Post by: OgreChubbs
Accolade wrote:OgreChubbs wrote:I still say the rumour mongers are twits and misunderstood the end times rumors and put them in 9th. But hell I am going to be banned from here and warseer when 9th comes out and nothing changes and I spend a couple of topics telling everyone how dumb they where and are lol.
OR, and I'm spit-balling here, you could *not* be a douche to other posters and you won't have to worry about getting banned. I mean, that's always an option.
no it really isn't when people get this..... crazy for y2k oh sorry 9th then they deserve what they get lol. But out of my 28 years of life I learnt americans and to a far lesser extent brits love gloom and doom doomsday crap and we are all screwed so might just be that.
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Post by: Deadawake1347
OgreChubbs wrote: Accolade wrote:OgreChubbs wrote:I still say the rumour mongers are twits and misunderstood the end times rumors and put them in 9th. But hell I am going to be banned from here and warseer when 9th comes out and nothing changes and I spend a couple of topics telling everyone how dumb they where and are lol.
OR, and I'm spit-balling here, you could *not* be a douche to other posters and you won't have to worry about getting banned. I mean, that's always an option.
no it really isn't when people get this..... crazy for y2k oh sorry 9th then they deserve what they get lol. But out of my 28 years of life I learnt americans and to a far lesser extent brits love gloom and doom doomsday crap and we are all screwed so might just be that.
I'm curious what you'll do if/when 9th comes out and the better part of the rumors turn out to be true. Does every one who disagreed with you get to tell you "how dumb you were and are"?
Because honestly, that seems kind of childish, especially for a self proclaimed 28 year old.
But in my experience, when you hear the same thing over and over from a bunch of different people, it's usually wise to pay attention, even if it may not be a good idea to blindly agree with them.
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Post by: Chief Librarian Mephiston
WhispererofTruth wrote:Some information I have on some of the factions;
The Chaos faction will be mostly Daemons, with a few tacked on units from the other two books. This of course means the Chaos faction will be the largest faction, but it will be joined by units which are firmly entrenched in the GW IP and as such can't be copied by other manufacturers. A certain aspect of Chaos is going the way of the squat for this very reason, Hint: The gods are still there. Due to the nature of the new world, or pocket worlds rather, where Chaos is everywhere, Daemons will form the bulk of the Chaos armies. Generic stuff like Warhounds won't be sticking around in place of units like Flesh Hounds.
All the Orc and Goblin concepts will be combined into singular new concepts. Savage/Orcs/Black Orcs becoming one type of Orc for example. I initially heard way back that two armies would be joining the O&G, one would replace trolls, the other would lend some of it's concepts to the new O&G while being squatted themselves. Although the nature of the rules would let you imitate that squatted faction in Newhammer. Squigs and other O&G beasties will be made more predominant in place of boars, due to their IP able nature. I also heard Orcs would become, "Orks", but I'm not entirely sure if that was a joke.
Alot of Undead units are very similar with the combined list and as such alot of units will be going away. Ushabti for example and the Casket/Black Coach which are fairly redundant in light of the Mortis Engine. The concept of constructs will stay around in some form or the other. The Morghasts for example.
Skaven keep their more tech and frankenstein-esque units to define the armies new look. Plaguey and sneaky Shaven take the back seat.
Warmachines in general will be mounted on other units, to again save shelf space, and also to suit the more mobile style of a skirmish game better.
Other than that all I know has already been said tbh or is blatantly obvious. (Elves are a faction and Snape killed Dumbledore.)
I don't suppose you've heard anything about the humans? We've heard talk of Fantasy Space Marines. I'd be interested in some elaboration on that. I'm also curious if any units from the current Empire and Bretonnian army lists survive as-is in the new 9th edition faction. And is the human faction just humans, or will they be joined by Dwarfs or some other army?
92923
Post by: WhispererofTruth
Fantasy marines are more like an evolution of Grail Knights with a bit of Empire mixed than Space Marines, They are effectively the fantasy equivalent though as I understand it. Of the Dwarves I've heard nothing, don't think they are getting squatted though.
4670
Post by: Wehrkind
Accolade wrote:
OR, and I'm spit-balling here, you could *not* be a douche to other posters and you won't have to worry about getting banned. I mean, that's always an option.
When I first read this my initial thought was 'Well... maybe not always, and perhaps not even often in his case.' I am curious as to how you think my off the cuff prediction has held up.
I had to admit, I am slightly excited about the idea of new rules. I liked the old fluff well enough, but my WHFB army is all counts as conversions, so I don't care much what happens to particular unit types. I totally get why people are angry about that as it is pretty much what keeps me from even looking back at 40k, but for me fortunately it is a non-issue. I am just holding out hope that the rules end up being interesting and fun. Now that I type that out, I don't know why I am holding out hope, but a fun Warhammer game would be a really nice thing for me after all these years.
84325
Post by: Chief Librarian Mephiston
I'd be curious to know how they're an evolution of Grail Knights, given that the Lady of the Lake is depowered and about to die, which ostensibly puts an end to any new Grail Knights being created. And is there any word on what becomes of Gilles Le Breton?
92923
Post by: WhispererofTruth
Not Grail Knights as in actual Grail Knights. Just a similar concept, knights empowered by the gods. Hence an evolution of the concept, not necessarily the unit. No idea, I know as much as too how the ET ends as you do.
84325
Post by: Chief Librarian Mephiston
Hmm, well that's disappointing. For a moment there I had my hopes up and thought that maybe some remnant of Bretonnia survived into 9th edition after all.
518
Post by: Kid_Kyoto
Leggy wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote:Well that seems... pointless. Moorecock-ian shenanigans aside, GW's stamp on Chaos is pretty firm. Don't see why they'd need to remove anything.
Generic barbarians, generic evil armoured warriors, generic evil Knights, goat men, minotaurs. They're models that I imagine are pretty hard to lock down the IP for, and form the core of two of the three chaos armies. I don't know if their removal is nessecary, per se, but I can see the thinking behind it.
*EDIT* especially if you replace them with some more specifically Warhammerish models, like the Skullcrushers of Khorne and the Putrid Blightkings
Unless I am seriously mistaken about IP law (and 15 years in publishing and PR says I ain't) GW is still trying copyright 'ideas' which they can't do.
You cannot copyright 'barbarians'. OK, fine, we all see that even the highly stylized Conan type barbarians cannot be copyrighted, anyone can use the idea.
You cannot copyright 'spikey warriors'. Yeah, sure. Even if GW are the main actors who brought the whole Heavy Metal Album Cover look into fantasy it's not a unique idea, we all get this.
Well guess what... you can't copyright rotting corpse demons or lean sword demons fond of blood or smexy claw girls or crazy guys wtih too many limbs.
You can't.
You can only copyright a specific execution of an idea, and so long as I'm making 'avatars of pestulance' then I am not infringing on 'plague bearers'.
Really anyone even vaguely aware of comic books or video games or any other medium where people are tapping the same basic ideas has to intuitively know this.
6005
Post by: Death By Monkeys
WhispererofTruth wrote:Not Grail Knights as in actual Grail Knights. Just a similar concept, knights empowered by the gods. Hence an evolution of the concept, not necessarily the unit. No idea, I know as much as too how the ET ends as you do.
This is a hunch, but I'm betting that GW is wanting to tap in on the popularity of Space Marines among 40k players to draw them to Fantasy. I'm guessing that the Fantasy human faction will be like a cross between IG and SM in that if you want to build an army of a horde of S3 T3 5+ save humans you can do so, but you could also play the elite human knights, empowered to fight against Chaos with their S4 T4 3+ plate armor saves. Or you'll be able to play the army as a mix of the two, much like running SM allied with IG or vice versa.
31545
Post by: AlexHolker
Even if you can't protect the IP here, it's still stupid to take them out of production. Not developing any more products that only have weak IP protection? Okay, sure, that makes a bit of sense. But when you've already done the most expensive job - actually designing the kits and milling the moulds - it's insane to throw that away. It would be a lot smarter to keep them in production, even if they can't support stupid expensive pricing, just to make it harder for anyone else to establish a foothold.
Games Workshop has already made this mistake once with the Specialist Games, making room for the likes of Dreadball and those Spartan games. Since the per unit cost of production is so low for HIPS, GW would be better off just knocking half the price off these generic units and keeping them in the market to say "If we can't have this IP, nobody can".
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Leggy wrote:Generic barbarians, generic evil armoured warriors, generic evil Knights, goat men, minotaurs. They're models that I imagine are pretty hard to lock down the IP for, and form the core of two of the three chaos armies. I don't know if their removal is nessecary, per se, but I can see the thinking behind it.
When your army has generic models that look basically identical to historical Celts or Vikings, you have a problem with IP that is not distinctive.
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:Unless I am seriously mistaken about IP law (and 15 years in publishing and PR says I ain't) GW is still trying copyright 'ideas' which they can't do.
GW isn't trying to copyright ideas or concepts. They are simply trying to move the visual look and design in a direction that makes it impossible for any player to substitute 3rd party historical or generic models in place of GW models. Players being able to substitute historical "puffed & slashed" Landsknect for Empire troops is a bad thing. Same with being able to substitute Crusaders or Knight Templars. At least, it's bad for GW's bottom line, now that GW-compatible 28mm "heroic" historical plastic minis are a thing, where there were none 10-15 years ago.
50896
Post by: heartserenade
I think square bases could work in a skirmish game, provided that the square base IS integral to the rules of the game. For example, knowing the sides and the back of the model is important because there are attack modifiers if attacked from the side or back. Square bases provide a clearer view on where the attack is coming from, thus it wold make sense to keep them in square bases.
But if they're not really integral to the rules, I would prefer round bases for a skirmish game.
31
Post by: nobody
When I dabbled in Fantasy in 6th, I played Lizardmen.
Pricing and a lack of other players have always prevented me from modernizing and starting to play WFB again.
Discovering that the only army I really had any interest in is getting squatted would completely kill any interest I had in playing it again.
10093
Post by: Sidstyler
No doubt GW is expecting people to just buy another faction, being completely oblivious as to how or why anyone could form a personal attachment to any one army, as in their eyes it's just a product designed to be "consumed" and nothing more. And we aren't supposed to be upset because buying product is what the "hobby" is all about.
1464
Post by: Breotan
As a Bretonnian player, I'm not terribly upset if our "Men at Arms" are squatted in favor of Empire Free Companies or State Troops. Same with archers. It's all generic so nothing lost there. Not getting Grail/Questing Knight models in plastic will really upset me, however. I've been waiting for those for a real long time now.
Ogres disappearing would make me sad because I have a huge army of them.
That my Skaven would seem to be coming out relatively unscathed makes me a happy camper.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Don't worry, there won't be Empire State Troops going forward.
33564
Post by: Vermis
From what I gathered the game was moving to a skirmish game format with options for models to rank up in slot-trays, so technically if you always kept your models in appropriately sized movement trays you be able to play with your old square based models, you just wouldn't be able to skirmish them. The option to rank up or skirmish, always he's to make the game scalable, and as such more open to beginners.
That does sound a little similar to Jake Thornton's/Wargame Foundry's God of Battles rules. I wonder if they were taking notes...?
Gimgamgoo wrote:I have an old supplement from GW called "Warhammer Skirmish". I think it was from somewhere around 2001/2.
it allowed - shock horror - skirmish on square bases. It was full of great scenarios. I have a feeling it was developed by GW US. (Not got it to hand as I type - sorry).
Why all of a sudden do people think it's impossible to move a single mini around a board with a square base.
It was an appendix in the 6th ed rulebook. I hadn't heard of Mordheim at point, and I thought it was a great idea. Something else you can play with your models.
Why do people think it's impossible to play something else with their models, too? Who was that dude who dumped his entire Bretonnian army rather than do something not GW-sanctioned with it? I think it was this one...
TheKbob wrote:
In an age filled with competing games that have hard and fast rules on modeling, basing, etc. and are succeeding, then GW should get with the program. Their wishy-washy stance is what's gonna be the final do in otherwise.
There are other games that basically say 'this is how we like to base, but whatever's easiest for you, bro', which are fairly popular too. Basing rules can be useful for some types of game, but, well, can I say your insistence that it's what makes or breaks a game is kind of disturbing to me.
Kanluwen wrote:
Have you seen the Eternal Guard?
The closest High Elf unit they look like is the Sisters of Avelorn, who were made to look more like Wood Elves than High Elves.
Well, you could look at them and say 'these are dressed a bit like Sisters of Avelorn', or you could look at them and say 'these are elves with spears and shields'.
Much as some WH players are obsessed with jamming too much fluff into the minis and rules (usually with the appellation 'special'), I don't think that extends quite as far as haute couture.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:Is it terrible that I am excited to play Kings of War for my former "mass battles" scale (since its super lean, movement/positioning is king rules better depict those kinds of battles IMO), and this as something altogether new?
No. Taking control of your hobby, rather than letting GW dictate it for you, and using a more enjoyable and arguably more appropriate ruleset, is never terrible. It's pretty great, even.
JohnHwangDD wrote:Leggy wrote:Generic barbarians, generic evil armoured warriors, generic evil Knights, goat men, minotaurs. They're models that I imagine are pretty hard to lock down the IP for...
When your army has generic models that look basically identical to historical Celts or Vikings, you have a problem with IP that is not distinctive.
Blimey. What Celts and Vikings are you looking at?
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Post by: Wehrkind
I am not sure how GW would manage to control the models people use in their armies given that they don't run events and so don't have much of a say what goes on at tournaments and the like. Perhaps they want to get back into running and supporting events, but I can't quite imagine that actually happening given their tendencies.
722
Post by: Kanluwen
Vermis wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Have you seen the Eternal Guard?
The closest High Elf unit they look like is the Sisters of Avelorn, who were made to look more like Wood Elves than High Elves.
Well, you could look at them and say 'these are dressed a bit like Sisters of Avelorn', or you could look at them and say 'these are elves with spears and shields'.
Much as some WH players are obsessed with jamming too much fluff into the minis and rules (usually with the appellation 'special'), I don't think that extends quite as far as haute couture.
Well, you could also look at them and realize that each of the "flavor" of Elves have different established visual aesthetics in terms of their weapons, armor, and shields.
If you want to boil it down to "elves with spears and shields" that's fine, but it's also a disingenuous and lazy argument.
78655
Post by: melkorthetonedeaf
 heartserenade wrote:I think square bases could work in a skirmish game, provided that the square base IS integral to the rules of the game. For example, knowing the sides and the back of the model is important because there are attack modifiers if attacked from the side or back. Square bases provide a clearer view on where the attack is coming from, thus it wold make sense to keep them in square bases.
For instance, painting on the front arc in WM/H instead of measuring "from the shoulders".
20774
Post by: pretre
Oooh, new rumor monger.
21940
Post by: nels1031
Is he saying anything truly new though?
20774
Post by: pretre
Does it matter? We still track them.
722
Post by: Kanluwen
Nope, but it's always interesting to see them spring out of the woodwork and reiterate that which has been said before.
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
Orks? yeah right 
33564
Post by: Vermis
Kanluwen wrote:
Much as some WH players are obsessed with jamming too much fluff into the minis and rules (usually with the appellation 'special'), I don't think that extends quite as far as haute couture.
Well, you could also look at them and realize that each of the "flavor" of Elves have different established visual aesthetics in terms of their weapons, armor, and shields.
If you want to boil it down to "elves with spears and shields" that's fine, but it's also a disingenuous and lazy argument.
No. Considering the post of the guy you originally quoted, it's pretty appropriate. If GW are going to make generic stat entries for basic troops in each faction in 9th, particularly combined elves, then I'd say 'elves with spears' stands a good chance of being one of those basic entries.
For the umpteenth time, fluff is being confused with (potential) rules. If you want to use models that have the flavour and visual aesthetics of GWs take on eternal guard, or any other wood elves, and make a big deal about them specifically being survivors of Athel Loren, that's perfectly fine; but on paper it won't make them any more than the hypothetical 'elves with spears' unit, or much different to high elf spearmen or druchi dreadspears. And that's fine too. If I plop down a unit of eternal guard, I don't need rules bloat to tell me they're eternal guard. Look: they're right there. The models are eternal guard. Y'see?
Maybe you might get a few little addon rules to tailor them further, maybe, but I gotta say I don't think it'd be hugely necessary.
Conversely, if I want to buy some generic elves clad in basic chainmail (or even saxons or normans with added pointy ears), without some overbearing winding-plants-and-leaves motif, and call them Athel Loren wood elves, I could bleedin' well do that too, given an obliging manufacturer and no GW staff breathing down my neck. Look, there they are: models of elves with spears. They're eternal guard because I say they're eternal guard.
Fun fact: there is no entry for phoenix guard in the Warmaster high elf list, but GW manufactured 10mm phoenix guard models for a while. (An even shorter while than they manufactured other Warmaster minis) I fortunately managed to snag a couple of units of them in a trade, a few years ago. But what to play them as? Spearmen. Elves with spears. Maybe with a magic item buff to reflect their elite nature. I don't need valour of ages or speed of asuryan or cause fear or a 4+ ward save (or whatever they get in WFB 8th) to tell me they're Phoenix Guard. ( or to autowin a fight)
42013
Post by: Sinful Hero
New poster with elaborate details of a release that's still months away? 
Time will tell.
13225
Post by: Bottle
I'm still trying to be positive! It's still hard ㅜㅜ
Warmachine being mounted on other things sounds cool. Empire with a whole range of crazy steam tanks and other contraptions could be great.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Vermis wrote:No. Considering the post of the guy you originally quoted, it's pretty appropriate. If GW are going to make generic stat entries for basic troops in each faction in 9th, particularly combined elves, then I'd say 'elves with spears' stands a good chance of being one of those basic entries.
For the umpteenth time, fluff is being confused with (potential) rules. If you want to use models that have the flavour and visual aesthetics of GWs take on eternal guard, or any other wood elves, and make a big deal about them specifically being survivors of Athel Loren, that's perfectly fine; but on paper it won't make them any more than the hypothetical 'elves with spears' unit, or much different to high elf spearmen or druchi dreadspears. And that's fine too. If I plop down a unit of eternal guard, I don't need rules bloat to tell me they're eternal guard. Look: they're right there. The models are eternal guard. Y'see?
Maybe you might get a few little addon rules to tailor them further, maybe, but I gotta say I don't think it'd be hugely necessary.
Conversely, if I want to buy some generic elves clad in basic chainmail (or even saxons or normans with added pointy ears), without some overbearing winding-plants-and-leaves motif, and call them Athel Loren wood elves, I could bleedin' well do that too, given an obliging manufacturer and no GW staff breathing down my neck. Look, there they are: models of elves with spears. They're eternal guard because I say they're eternal guard.
Fun fact: there is no entry for phoenix guard in the Warmaster high elf list, but GW manufactured 10mm phoenix guard models for a while. (An even shorter while than they manufactured other Warmaster minis) I fortunately managed to snag a couple of units of them in a trade, a few years ago. But what to play them as? Spearmen. Elves with spears. Maybe with a magic item buff to reflect their elite nature. I don't need valour of ages or speed of asuryan or cause fear or a 4+ ward save (or whatever they get in WFB 8th) to tell me they're Phoenix Guard. ( or to autowin a fight)
QFT.
I think we need to look at the current Chaos Space Marine entry for how Elves are going to be handled going forward.
Grimdark (tm) Elves
Grimdark( tm) Elf - WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A1 Ld8 Mv5
Grimdark( tm) Elf Leader - WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A2 Ld9 Mv5
- Hand Weapon, Light Armor
- Always Strikes First, Armor Piercing, Fight in Extra Ranks
seems innocuous enough, right? Read on, gentle reader...
The unit must purchase one Mark:
- Mark of Grimness = +1 pts/model = unit gains XXX (this is the best value, by far, but requires brand new WYSIWYG models, only sold in boxes of 10)
- Mark of Darkness = +2 pts/model = unit gains Hatred & Murderous (ooh, so angry!)
- Mark of Highness = +3 pts/model = unit gains Valour & Marital Prowess (this is almost fair, but definitely little underpowered)
- Mark of Woodness = +5 pts/model = unit gains Stalker & Strider (this is a totally crap option, but GW loves to feth the Wood Elves extra hard, and WE players should totally expect it!!! )
Marks must be represented by the models.
The unit may be upgrade to Veterans:
- Veterans of the Grimdark( tm) = +X pts/model -- unit gains +1WS +1BS +1Ld; units with the Mark of Grimness get this for FREE!!!!! (an extra "feth you" to the 8E models  )
The unit may purchase a Banner:
- Banner of XXX = +XX pts/unit
- Banner of XXX = +XX pts/unit
The entire unit may purchase any 2 equipment upgrades:
- Heavy Armor = +XX pts/unit
- Shield = +XX pts/unit
- 2nd CCW = +XX pts/unit
- Halberd = +XX pts/unit
- Great Weapon = +XX pts/unit
- Spear = +XX pts/unit
- Short Bows = +XX pts/unit (repeater X-bows)
- Long Bows = +XX pts/unit
Enough options, and you can make whatever you currently own.
- High SpearElves? Mark of Highness, Shield & Long Spear.
And so on.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Could you be a little less gleeful over the idea of people losing their armies DD? That'd be great.
68802
Post by: TheAuldGrump
All this makes me wonder if GW would find it profitable to make older editions available in digital versions.
I am pretty sure that there would be at least some market for sixth edition - and likely for third.
If nothing else... there is still Kings of War - but for the folks that really want Warhammer... there might be a market for e-books of the older rules.
The Auld Grump
72319
Post by: highlord tamburlaine
I just snagged a 6th edition rulebook and a stack of army books, pretty much brand new for less than half the cost of an average unit box, so I've got something to fall back on should these new rules not pan out.
Considering the fact that I've probably got just a couple hundred points for almost every army released currently, I'm perfectly content with having an actual skirmish game to use them in, and having a (hopefully decent) player base outside of family to play with.
518
Post by: Kid_Kyoto
JohnHwangDD wrote:
I think we need to look at the current Chaos Space Marine entry for how Elves are going to be handled going forward.
Grimdark (tm) Elves
Grimdark( tm) Elf - WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A1 Ld8 Mv5
Grimdark( tm) Elf Leader - WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A2 Ld9 Mv5
- Hand Weapon, Light Armor
- Always Strikes First, Armor Piercing, Fight in Extra Ranks
seems innocuous enough, right? Read on, gentle reader...
The unit must purchase one Mark:
- Mark of Grimness = +1 pts/model = unit gains XXX (this is the best value, by far, but requires brand new WYSIWYG models, only sold in boxes of 10)
- Mark of Darkness = +2 pts/model = unit gains Hatred & Murderous (ooh, so angry!)
- Mark of Highness = +3 pts/model = unit gains Valour & Marital Prowess (this is almost fair, but definitely little underpowered)
- Mark of Woodness = +5 pts/model = unit gains Stalker & Strider (this is a totally crap option, but GW loves to feth the Wood Elves extra hard, and WE players should totally expect it!!! )
Marks must be represented by the models.
The unit may be upgrade to Veterans:
- Veterans of the Grimdark( tm) = +X pts/model -- unit gains +1WS +1BS +1Ld; units with the Mark of Grimness get this for FREE!!!!! (an extra "feth you" to the 8E models )
The unit may purchase a Banner:
- Banner of XXX = +XX pts/unit
- Banner of XXX = +XX pts/unit
The entire unit may purchase any 2 equipment upgrades:
- Heavy Armor = +XX pts/unit
- Shield = +XX pts/unit
- 2nd CCW = +XX pts/unit
- Halberd = +XX pts/unit
- Great Weapon = +XX pts/unit
- Spear = +XX pts/unit
- Short Bows = +XX pts/unit (repeater X-bows)
- Long Bows = +XX pts/unit
Enough options, and you can make whatever you currently own.
- High SpearElves? Mark of Highness, Shield & Long Spear.
And so on.
How did you get an advance copy of the army book??!?!?!?one?!!?
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Kid_Kyoto wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote:
I think we need to look at the current Chaos Space Marine entry for how Elves are going to be handled going forward.
Grimdark (tm) Elves
Grimdark( tm) Elf - WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A1 Ld8 Mv5
Grimdark( tm) Elf Leader - WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A2 Ld9 Mv5
- Hand Weapon, Light Armor
- Always Strikes First, Armor Piercing, Fight in Extra Ranks
...
Enough options, and you can make whatever you currently own.
How did you get an advance copy of the army book??!?!?!?one?!!?
There was a secret coupon code printed in Warhammer Armies : Dogs of War.
83125
Post by: chochky
Vermis wrote: Kanluwen wrote:
Much as some WH players are obsessed with jamming too much fluff into the minis and rules (usually with the appellation 'special'), I don't think that extends quite as far as haute couture.
Well, you could also look at them and realize that each of the "flavor" of Elves have different established visual aesthetics in terms of their weapons, armor, and shields.
If you want to boil it down to "elves with spears and shields" that's fine, but it's also a disingenuous and lazy argument.
No. Considering the post of the guy you originally quoted, it's pretty appropriate. If GW are going to make generic stat entries for basic troops in each faction in 9th, particularly combined elves, then I'd say 'elves with spears' stands a good chance of being one of those basic entries.
For the umpteenth time, fluff is being confused with (potential) rules. If you want to use models that have the flavour and visual aesthetics of GWs take on eternal guard, or any other wood elves, and make a big deal about them specifically being survivors of Athel Loren, that's perfectly fine; but on paper it won't make them any more than the hypothetical 'elves with spears' unit, or much different to high elf spearmen or druchi dreadspears. And that's fine too. If I plop down a unit of eternal guard, I don't need rules bloat to tell me they're eternal guard. Look: they're right there. The models are eternal guard. Y'see?
Maybe you might get a few little addon rules to tailor them further, maybe, but I gotta say I don't think it'd be hugely necessary.
Conversely, if I want to buy some generic elves clad in basic chainmail (or even saxons or normans with added pointy ears), without some overbearing winding-plants-and-leaves motif, and call them Athel Loren wood elves, I could bleedin' well do that too, given an obliging manufacturer and no GW staff breathing down my neck. Look, there they are: models of elves with spears. They're eternal guard because I say they're eternal guard.
Fun fact: there is no entry for phoenix guard in the Warmaster high elf list, but GW manufactured 10mm phoenix guard models for a while. (An even shorter while than they manufactured other Warmaster minis) I fortunately managed to snag a couple of units of them in a trade, a few years ago. But what to play them as? Spearmen. Elves with spears. Maybe with a magic item buff to reflect their elite nature. I don't need valour of ages or speed of asuryan or cause fear or a 4+ ward save (or whatever they get in WFB 8th) to tell me they're Phoenix Guard. ( or to autowin a fight)
I think Warmaster handled armies perfectly. Just enough chrome and special rules to make each army play differently (not necessarily each unit). The thing about mass battle games is that they are kind of about the whole army, and not each individual little guy. The game design is therefore usually different from that of a skirmish game - how an army/factions feels and plays overall takes precedence over each unit being strictly unique.
Hordes of the Things and DBA pull this off perfectly, as even though each unit type is mechanically identical, the different armies play very differently and feel very flavourful.
92230
Post by: Korinov
JohnHwangDD wrote:
- Mark of Grimness = +1 pts/model = unit gains XXX (this is the best value, by far, but requires brand new WYSIWYG models, only sold in boxes of 10)
Dual-kit boxes (featuring both masculine and feminine torsos) with loads of bits everybody totally needs: extra shoulderpads of diverse sizes (all of them oversized anyway) filled with skullz, extra weapons of diverse sizes and designs (all of them oversized anyway) and with skully guards and pommels, skull pendants, skull belts, and even free skullz for you to glue wherever you may want. 50€
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
 Korinov wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote:
- Mark of Grimness = +1 pts/model = unit gains XXX (this is the best value, by far, but requires brand new WYSIWYG models, only sold in boxes of 10)
Dual-kit boxes (featuring both masculine and feminine torsos) with loads of bits everybody totally needs: extra shoulderpads of diverse sizes (all of them oversized anyway) filled with skullz, extra weapons of diverse sizes and designs (all of them oversized anyway) and with skully guards and pommels, skull pendants, skull belts, and even free skullz for you to glue wherever you may want. 50€
You work for GW, and have seen them? I'm so jealous!
But oddly, somehow, I don't think the Grimdark Elves are going to be Grimdark enough. No chains and hooks?
92923
Post by: WhispererofTruth
Araloth
Cauldron of Blood/Bloodwrack Shrine
Eternal Guard/Wildwood Rangers
Sisters of the Thorn/Wildriders of Kurnous
Witch Elves of Khaine/Sisters of Slaughter
Treeman
Savage Orcs
Night Goblins
Night Goblin Fanatics
Stonehorn/Thundertusk
Mournfang Cavalry
Thanquol and Boneripper
Vermin Lord
Warlord
Grey Seer
Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace
Stormvermin
Stormfiends
Doomwheel
Hellpit Abomination
Nagash
Coven Throne/Mortis Engine
Terrorgheist/Zombie Dragon
Mortarchs
Morghasts
Glottkin
Maggoth Lords
Gutrot Spume
Blightkings
Gorereapers
Wrathmongers
Chaos Spawn
Chaos Warshrine
Chaos Daemons
Ghorgon/Cygor
Grimm Burlockson
Josef Bugman
Runesmith
Ironbreakers/Irondrakes
Gyrocopter
55577
Post by: ImAGeek
What?
63306
Post by: Donomar
WhispererofTruth wrote:Araloth
Cauldron of Blood/Bloodwrack Shrine
Eternal Guard/Wildwood Rangers
Sisters of the Thorn/Wildriders of Kurnous
Witch Elves of Khaine/Sisters of Slaughter
Treeman
Savage Orcs
Night Goblins
Night Goblin Fanatics
Stonehorn/Thundertusk
Mournfang Cavalry
Thanquol and Boneripper
Vermin Lord
Warlord
Grey Seer
Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace
Stormvermin
Stormfiends
Doomwheel
Hellpit Abomination
Nagash
Coven Throne/Mortis Engine
Terrorgheist/Zombie Dragon
Mortarchs
Morghasts
Glottkin
Maggoth Lords
Gutrot Spume
Blightkings
Gorereapers
Wrathmongers
Chaos Spawn
Chaos Warshrine
Chaos Daemons
Ghorgon/Cygor
Grimm Burlockson
Josef Bugman
Runesmith
Ironbreakers/Irondrakes
Gyrocopter
A new faction in 9th?!
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
Discontinued models list? Unchanged models list? Secret list with hidden code that will unlock the path to rumormongering eternity?... Shopping list?
92923
Post by: WhispererofTruth
What are you all talking about? That's just a list of models I put there for nooooooo reason. If you want to read something more into all of this, then go ahead and do that. Go on, do it. I was surprised I didn't put Sisters of Averlorn there too, I want too, just because you know. But that's just my own personal feeling that they belong ya know what I mean? All those Elves could be a family. Not heard anything that indicates them being part of the family though.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
WhispererofTruth wrote:What are you all talking about? That's just a list of models I put there for nooooooo reason. If you want to read something more into all of this, then go ahead and do that. Go on, do it.
Or, y'know, just tell us and stop being a troll.
92923
Post by: WhispererofTruth
Because explaining it would require giving spoilers. Something I'm not going to do due to the fact they will get spread and ruin things for people who don't want to read them, it happens every time. Try not to be so rude.
55577
Post by: ImAGeek
WhispererofTruth wrote:Because explaining it would require giving spoilers. Something I'm not going to do due to the fact they will get spread and ruin things for people who don't want to read them, it happens every time. Try not to be so rude.
Why bother posting them then? He wasn't rude, you are trolling. You could use spoiler tags, so 'because spoilers' isn't really an excuse.
33564
Post by: Vermis
WhispererofTruth wrote:Because explaining it would require giving spoilers. Something I'm not going to do due to the fact they will get spread and ruin things for people who don't want to read them, it happens every time.
So hit the spoiler tag button when you're typing out a post. And if you don't want to post anything at all, well, er, don't post anything, including random lists of minis without context. All that does, like HBMC said, is make you look like a troll. A smug troll, at that.
Try not to be so rude.
Ironic.
58858
Post by: overtyrant
Poor form old boy poor form....
56307
Post by: unmercifulconker
That whatever it was, was the most edgy post I have seen here.
*Tips purity seal*
M'brother.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Vermis wrote:So hit the spoiler tag button when you're typing out a post. And if you don't want to post anything at all, well, er, don't post anything, including random lists of minis without context. All that does, like HBMC said, is make you look like a troll. A smug troll, at that.
Posting rumours is about just that: Posting rumours.
What it's not about is going "I know something you don't know!" before putting your pinky to your lip Dr. Evil-style and then acting innocent.
43352
Post by: Strombones
Has a rumour mongering name + joined 6 days ago + posts cryptic information = troll.
its simple troll arithmetic!
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
WhispererofTruth wrote:Because explaining it would require giving spoilers. Something I'm not going to do due to the fact they will get spread and ruin things for people who don't want to read them, it happens every time.
Lets be honest shall we? You are clearly looking for attention and so far you have only posted the obvious. If you really want your so important message to be noticed and spread all over the net how about you actually post some new content rather than a random list? I mean in 3 months time we will know if your full of it or not. So, are you the man for that?
92923
Post by: WhispererofTruth
 NAVARRO wrote:WhispererofTruth wrote:Because explaining it would require giving spoilers. Something I'm not going to do due to the fact they will get spread and ruin things for people who don't want to read them, it happens every time.
Lets be honest shall we? You are clearly looking for attention and so far you have only posted the obvious. If you really want your so important message to be noticed and spread all over the net how about you actually post some new content rather than a random list? I mean in 3 months time we will know if your full of it or not. So, are you the man for that?
I'm not a man. And the list is a list of the units that will survive 9th. I don't think the list is complete tbf. There's a couple of other units that I think should be there, but I haven't heard that they will be.
7 Champions and an army of light.
No more Lizardmen, but still playable.
No more Gnoblars/Skinks. They become Goblins.
No more Beastmen.
Elves become more Eldary, units take on aspects of their gods.
There are some units like the Blood Knights that I expected to survive into 9th, but the events of the books have made me doubt this is going to happen anymore. They were due to be updated. Plus it fits with the new merging unit policy, not sure that's happening anymore though. Something similar happened to the Bone Giant, that being said I heard the Bone Giant was getting a redesign and a release some point in the future.
The game will become more Fantasy like, less cannons and warmachines. More magical. It's not just the "Humans" that get empowered by the gods all factions will experience this.
5394
Post by: reds8n
Does seem a bit pointless posting if you don't want people to know anything.
.. FWIW the Wood Elf Eternal Guard and Sisters of the Thorn kits have been added to GW's module range (the models independent stores have to stock if on the module scheme) and my understanding is that this won;t be reviewed or changed until late this/early next year.
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
WhispererofTruth wrote: NAVARRO wrote:WhispererofTruth wrote:Because explaining it would require giving spoilers. Something I'm not going to do due to the fact they will get spread and ruin things for people who don't want to read them, it happens every time.
Lets be honest shall we? You are clearly looking for attention and so far you have only posted the obvious. If you really want your so important message to be noticed and spread all over the net how about you actually post some new content rather than a random list? I mean in 3 months time we will know if your full of it or not. So, are you the man for that?
I'm not a man. And the list is a list of the units that will survive 9th.
7 Champions and an army of light.
No more Lizardmen.
No more Gnoblars/Skinks. They become Goblins.
No more Beastmen.
Elves become more Eldary, units take on aspects of their gods.
Thank you dear... Lady? Keep them coming.
21940
Post by: nels1031
I feel like if I had a nickel for every "rumor monger" with barely double digit posts that came on this forum and posted vague "rumors" that seem like educated guesses and then got weirdly defensive when asked to elaborate, I'd could probably buy Smaug.
And Skinks become Goblins? Nice dude.
25728
Post by: -DE-
The list makes sense. All the End Times boxes (almost) are intact, along with some of the recent highlights. Don't get the Ghorgon, though, considering Beastmen are to be no more.
The upcoming Gorereapers and Wrathmongers sound nice.
92923
Post by: WhispererofTruth
 -DE- wrote:The list makes sense. All the End Times boxes (almost) are intact, along with some of the recent highlights. Don't get the Ghorgon, though, considering Beastmen are to be no more.
The upcoming Gorereapers and Wrathmongers sound nice.
They still exist in the background, just not as a standing army. Counts as is a wonderful thing. You could probably use the Orcs list as a good representation of them. As for the Ghorgon, well it's an IP stampable hybrid of a Giant and the Minotaur. What's not too like? I said before the essence of the armies will stay, just not in the same form as before.
55577
Post by: ImAGeek
Yeah, but why keep a Beastman model if they aren't keeping the army.
92923
Post by: WhispererofTruth
 ImAGeek wrote:Yeah, but why keep a Beastman model if they aren't keeping the army.
It's a Chaos Legion model, not a BM model. I'm using the term Beastmen rather broadly I'll admit.
55577
Post by: ImAGeek
Right. So Legions of Chaos remain.
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
If Orcs get lizards, Ogres and beastmen that list alone will burst all the newhammer bubbles .... I wonder if the Spider riders and Arachnarok will endure the 9th in order to feast on the noobs carcasses.
92923
Post by: WhispererofTruth
NAVARRO wrote:If Orcs get lizards, Ogres and beastmen that list alone will burst all the newhammer bubbles .... I wonder if the Spider riders and Arachnarok will endure the 9th in order to feast on the noobs carcasses.
Incy wincy spider down the waterspout, down came the squat hammer and flushed the spider out. Into just The Hobbit range apparently. Between you and me, I blame the Forest Goblins being all common. As for most of the list, well it won't be there. No more Ironguts, Common Orcs/Goblins, Leadbelchers, Gnoblars etc; The Orcs and Ogres are trading in iron and gun powder for more traditional measures. I
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
 WhispererofTruth wrote: NAVARRO wrote:If Orcs get lizards, Ogres and beastmen that list alone will burst all the newhammer bubbles .... I wonder if the Spider riders and Arachnarok will endure the 9th in order to feast on the noobs carcasses.
Incy wincy spider down the waterspout, down came the squat hammer and flushed the spider out. Into just The Hobbit range apparently. Between you and me, I blame the Forest Goblins being all common. As for most of the list, well it won't be there. No more Ironguts, Common Orcs/Goblins, Leadbelchers, Gnoblars etc; The Orcs and Ogres are trading in iron and gun powder for more traditional measures. I
Thats lots of plastic kits missing the 9th and big ones too... If it happens WFB model range will be reduced to 1/3 or less of what we currently have. Then again if it goes skirmish there is nothing stopping down the road a bestiary tome to reintroduce some those beasts back ... I wonder if Finecast will still be a option for the 9th.
72319
Post by: highlord tamburlaine
I like how the Skaven in the list have been reduced to nothing but big point (and cost) items.
Where's my skittering horde? All I see are Stormvermin to go with all the big guys and war machines.
53985
Post by: TheKbob
Or probably axe out all the metal, resin, and old plastics that aren't selling well (or have a glut on the used market) to make a new skirmish game. If a unit of stormvermin has an actual impact in the game, like a unit in Warmahordes, then what's it matter if the box is expensive?
I say bring the axe and bring on good rules, prove us "haterz" wrong, GW.
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
TheKbob wrote:Or probably axe out all the metal, resin, and old plastics that aren't selling well (or have a glut on the used market) to make a new skirmish game. If a unit of stormvermin has an actual impact in the game, like a unit in Warmahordes, then what's it matter if the box is expensive?
I say bring the axe and bring on good rules, prove us "haterz" wrong, GW.
I say keep the hammer instead of the axe and leave Hordes to PP.
722
Post by: Kanluwen
 reds8n wrote: Does seem a bit pointless posting if you don't want people to know anything.
.. FWIW the Wood Elf Eternal Guard and Sisters of the Thorn kits have been added to GW's module range (the models independent stores have to stock if on the module scheme) and my understanding is that this won;t be reviewed or changed until late this/early next year.
Eternal Guard/Wildwood Rangers and Sisters of the Thorn/Wild Riders are also the only two "new" kits out of the basic line-up for Wood Elves.
Those two boxes, Araloth, and the Treeman Ancient/Durthu/Treeman kit were the only new releases that Wood Elves saw with their book. The line still has an entire unit in metal(Waywatchers) and several characters in metal as well(the Waywatcher Lord, Lord on Great Stag, Lord on Great Eagle, etc...) and some in resin.
68802
Post by: TheAuldGrump
WhispererofTruth wrote:Because explaining it would require giving spoilers. Something I'm not going to do due to the fact they will get spread and ruin things for people who don't want to read them, it happens every time. Try not to be so rude.
Welcome to the Ignore List. Enjoy your stay.
The Auld Grump
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
31545
Post by: AlexHolker
TheKbob wrote:Or probably axe out all the metal, resin, and old plastics that aren't selling well (or have a glut on the used market) to make a new skirmish game. If a unit of stormvermin has an actual impact in the game, like a unit in Warmahordes, then what's it matter if the box is expensive?
I say bring the axe and bring on good rules, prove us "haterz" wrong, GW.
The matter is that if you are going to focus on selling a few specific units - whether it's my old idea of halving the price for "commons" to make it easier to build a foundation of an army upon which you can build with the more expensive kits, or GW's rumoured idea of just throwing out the rest - those units should be the ones that best convey the character of the army. If the Skaven aren't going to play like Skaven, why are they even in the game?
47181
Post by: Yodhrin
AlexHolker wrote: TheKbob wrote:Or probably axe out all the metal, resin, and old plastics that aren't selling well (or have a glut on the used market) to make a new skirmish game. If a unit of stormvermin has an actual impact in the game, like a unit in Warmahordes, then what's it matter if the box is expensive?
I say bring the axe and bring on good rules, prove us "haterz" wrong, GW.
The matter is that if you are going to focus on selling a few specific units - whether it's my old idea of halving the price for "commons" to make it easier to build a foundation of an army upon which you can build with the more expensive kits, or GW's rumoured idea of just throwing out the rest - those units should be the ones that best convey the character of the army. If the Skaven aren't going to play like Skaven, why are they even in the game?
Because GW honestly do seem to believe that our hobby is "buying what GW are selling"; they don't think people care if the ratmen models look or act like the Skaven faction they were fans of, they don't think people give a crap whether they're playing in the Warhammer World or the Warhammer Bubbleverse - what matters is the GW logo on the boxes and books. I hope they're wrong, and the number of people of that type has seemingly shrunk over the past few years, but I don't know whether there may just be enough of them left to sustain GW through their wholesale dismantling of the Warhammer IP, which would be a shame.
5256
Post by: NAVARRO
AlexHolker wrote: TheKbob wrote:Or probably axe out all the metal, resin, and old plastics that aren't selling well (or have a glut on the used market) to make a new skirmish game. If a unit of stormvermin has an actual impact in the game, like a unit in Warmahordes, then what's it matter if the box is expensive?
I say bring the axe and bring on good rules, prove us "haterz" wrong, GW.
The matter is that if you are going to focus on selling a few specific units - whether it's my old idea of halving the price for "commons" to make it easier to build a foundation of an army upon which you can build with the more expensive kits, or GW's rumoured idea of just throwing out the rest - those units should be the ones that best convey the character of the army. If the Skaven aren't going to play like Skaven, why are they even in the game?
I know, one thing is reducing some few units here and there and trim things a bit, another thing is reducing armies to something unrecognizable and out of character... If rumors prove to be accurate the O&G army will be without, any other form of goblin apart from NG, no Trolls, only savage orcs, no spiders, less war machines and get meshed with Ogres... wonder if boars, Wyverns and giant still have a place. Thats a lot of things stripped away and people with huge armies based on these canned themes will have to find other uses for them... and they will, maybe not in 2015 GW.
The bump in magic, reduced war machines, reduced armies, rules in box and skirmish in round bases is getting closer and closer of Privateer formula with the downside of the Limited releases idea GW seems to be heading to.
This is effectively a totally different game and by the sounds of it a simplified flat version of WFB. The first thing that comes to my mind when I put all these rumors together is Genestealer cults... Remember all the coolness and Background with the Hybrids and generations etc? Today 40k has one entry for Genestealer and broodlord and they are just ravaging beasts with little background... Thats going to be WFB, tasteless with all the cool factors erased from it.
Yodhrin I dont think the WFB brand is strong enough to endure such major kick in the bubbles.
54671
Post by: Crazyterran
So, who wants to play 8th and ignore this abomination of a new game?
6646
Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Oddly I think this change would more likely bring me back in the game.
Although at this point I'm good either way, Mordheim will keep my Fantasy craving going indefinitely. but this would make me sit up and take notice if accurate.
47181
Post by: Yodhrin
The only thing keeping me in the game at this point was the background and the occasional non-OTT model release, so yeah.
What's annoying is if they're really culling the range to the extent that has been suggested, it's actually going to make it harder than it already is to talk new people into trying better games like Mordheim - right now you can buy or convert almost every Mordheim warband with very little effort, not so much when 2/3 of the range has vanished and much of the rest replaced with new Fantasy Space Marine-type drek.
34439
Post by: Formosa
It's all a load of bollocks, I flatly refuse to believe gw is stupid enough to hack a huge chunk of there product range apart, cite this message when the ed comes out rumour mongers, I'm flatly calling you all liars.
58858
Post by: overtyrant
Eh.... No.
I'm looking forward to these changes and appreciate the current rumours that are coming out as it may pull me back in.
9892
Post by: Flashman
8th already is an abomination
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
Its far superior to the previous editions of fantasy. No 25+ power dice magic phases, better unit type rules, no cavalry automatically winning their combats, etc...
9892
Post by: Flashman
 Grey Templar wrote:
Its far superior to the previous editions of fantasy. No 25+ power dice magic phases, better unit type rules, no cavalry automatically winning their combats, etc...
Cavalry should automatically win their combats. That's the point of cavalry.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
Not if they were foolish enough to charge a bunch of infantry in the front. Thats a one way ticket to losing all your cavalry.
Cavalry could not break line infantry in the front historically. They had to either flank them or hope and pray the infantry lost their nerve.
8th edition portrays this perfectly.
721
Post by: BorderCountess
Grey Templar wrote:Not if they were foolish enough to charge a bunch of infantry in the front. Thats a one way ticket to losing all your cavalry.
Cavalry could not break line infantry in the front historically. They had to either flank them or hope and pray the infantry lost their nerve.
8th edition portrays this perfectly.
But thanks to steadfast, infantry never breaks from cavalry. Doesn't matter how hard the cavalry hits, most infantry units can more than soak the casualties and keep their steadfast. Cavalry tend to lose wars of attrition, which 8th edition basically is.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
 Manfred von Drakken wrote: Grey Templar wrote:Not if they were foolish enough to charge a bunch of infantry in the front. Thats a one way ticket to losing all your cavalry.
Cavalry could not break line infantry in the front historically. They had to either flank them or hope and pray the infantry lost their nerve.
8th edition portrays this perfectly.
But thanks to steadfast, infantry never breaks from cavalry. Doesn't matter how hard the cavalry hits, most infantry units can more than soak the casualties and keep their steadfast. Cavalry tend to lose wars of attrition, which 8th edition basically is.
You act like that isn't what really happened historically.
Even when cavalry did break infantry, they almost never broke them immediately after the charge. Cavalry would have to charge and then immediately withdraw, and then charge again. Rinse and repeat till the infantry lose.
I think you're really arguing that cavalry should have some sort of hit and run ability and not that steadfast is a problem, steadfast perfectly represents what its supposed to represent.
721
Post by: BorderCountess
If you mean that steadfast is supposed to represent people buying craploads of overpriced infantry models, I would agree whole-heartedly.
The game is an abstraction designed to favor tactics. I'd like to be able to use tactics other than throwing a bunch of guys at another bunch of guys.
Movement and placement of units used to really mean something in this game.
664
Post by: Grimtuff
Flashman wrote: Grey Templar wrote:
Its far superior to the previous editions of fantasy. No 25+ power dice magic phases, better unit type rules, no cavalry automatically winning their combats, etc...
Cavalry should automatically win their combats. That's the point of cavalry.
A single tactical squad of marines should lay waste to enemy armies. That's the point of Space Marines
Background=/=rules.
86262
Post by: MaxT
Fantasy was ruined with random charges.
9892
Post by: Flashman
 Grimtuff wrote: Flashman wrote: Grey Templar wrote:
Its far superior to the previous editions of fantasy. No 25+ power dice magic phases, better unit type rules, no cavalry automatically winning their combats, etc...
Cavalry should automatically win their combats. That's the point of cavalry.
A single tactical squad of marines should lay waste to enemy armies. That's the point of Space Marines
Background=/=rules.
I dunno... in 40K, 10 Space Marines can hold their own against 40 Orks., whereas in Fantasy cavalry does not make much of a dent against a moderately size infantry regiment. I don't expect reality in a game, but I do expect a dash of realism.
4042
Post by: Da Boss
I think talking about what happened historically is not super relevant when talking about velociraptor cavalry or goblins riding giant wolves.
7th and 6th minus the worst army books were more satisfying for me tactically because of the variety of different things that you could try and do, and the importance of positioning. I feel that with 8th, those things are much less important and your "build" is much more important. That is a difference that some may enjoy, and that's cool, but it wasn't for me.
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Post by: BorderCountess
 Da Boss wrote:I think talking about what happened historically is not super relevant when talking about velociraptor cavalry or goblins riding giant wolves.
7th and 6th minus the worst army books were more satisfying for me tactically because of the variety of different things that you could try and do, and the importance of positioning. I feel that with 8th, those things are much less important and your "build" is much more important. That is a difference that some may enjoy, and that's cool, but it wasn't for me.
This is what I'm talking about. In 6/7, you could make up for having a 'weaker' list by being better. Now, it's more like Listhammer, like 40k is.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Nah, let's go back to 5th edition and spend over half our army's points on Dwarven anvils and other characters!
722
Post by: Kanluwen
H.B.M.C. wrote:Nah, let's go back to 5th edition and spent over half our army's points on Dwarven anvils and other characters!
That means we need better points balancing for characters/units then...
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Kanluwen wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote:Nah, let's go back to 5th edition and spent over half our army's points on Dwarven anvils and other characters!
That means we need better points balancing for characters/units then...
Or a sense of humour. Whichever comes first.
56277
Post by: Eldarain
Points balancing it is.
92230
Post by: Korinov
H.B.M.C. wrote:Nah, let's go back to 5th edition and spend over half our army's points on Dwarven anvils and other characters!
5th rules with some well placed restrictions to magical items (i.e. captains up to 25p, heroes up to 35 and commanders up to 50) and a few tweaks here and there (mostly some nice ideas from later editions, like 6th flight) is a pretty decent ruleset for dark ages scale battles.
And by "dark ages" I mean the times when a well timed charge by 8 or 10 horsemen could change the tide of a battle. Which is what happens in WHFB.
30490
Post by: Mr Morden
Flashman wrote: Grey Templar wrote:
Its far superior to the previous editions of fantasy. No 25+ power dice magic phases, better unit type rules, no cavalry automatically winning their combats, etc...
Cavalry should automatically win their combats. That's the point of cavalry.
Not really, Cavalry is usually there to harress and exploit weaknesses and can't nromally deal with formed and discplined troops - its very rare historically that they even charged formed units that were not weakened or disrupted by terrain, thirst, arrows etc -cavalry is also great against weak disored troops or those fleeing, and of course other cavalry
92230
Post by: Korinov
 Mr Morden wrote:Not really, Cavalry is usually there to harress and exploit weaknesses and can't nromally deal with formed and discplined troops - its very rare historically that they even charged formed units that were not weakened or disrupted by terrain, thirst, arrows etc -cavalry is also great against weak disored troops or those fleeing, and of course other cavalry
It depends on the time period.
Heavy cavalry in early-to-mid medieval western european battles could be devastating, mostly because many armies lacked effective infantry equipped with the suitable pole weapons to deal with cavalry. Also well trained, equipped and organised infantry regiments were uncommon.
The problem with some editions' cavhammer is that, traditionally, pole weapons in WHFB have got rules equivalent to "gak on a stick".
In other words, five bretonnian knights of the realm should be able to crush fifteen to twenty poorly equipped and disciplined goblins or human militiamen, but they should be turned into shreds if foolish enough to charge into a well trained and geared pike or even spear defensive formation.
Sadly, as I said, pole weapons have always been neglected rules-wise in WHFB, while two-handed weapons have always been able to deal with almost everything. It's silly, but I guess models with two handed weapons look cooler and sell more.
On the other hand, rules-wise mounts are mostly useless, while in the charge they should be as dangerous (or more) than their riders. A huge armored battle steed (who has been bred and trained to be nothing short of a psychopathic beast) is the last thing an infantryman wants to see galloping straight at him. Specially if you don't have a pike, or at least a spear/halberd at hand.
These are things WHFB has never really got around, and they shouldn't be that difficult to fix. But again, GW game developers probably never had (nor currently have) a clue about what real medieval warfare looked like, so it's to be expected.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Except 6th. 6th was clearly better than 8th.
44272
Post by: Azreal13
Grey Templar wrote: Manfred von Drakken wrote: Grey Templar wrote:Not if they were foolish enough to charge a bunch of infantry in the front. Thats a one way ticket to losing all your cavalry.
Cavalry could not break line infantry in the front historically. They had to either flank them or hope and pray the infantry lost their nerve.
8th edition portrays this perfectly.
But thanks to steadfast, infantry never breaks from cavalry. Doesn't matter how hard the cavalry hits, most infantry units can more than soak the casualties and keep their steadfast. Cavalry tend to lose wars of attrition, which 8th edition basically is.
You act like that isn't what really happened historically.
Historically, were there Elves on dragon back or short angry alcoholics with magic hammers?
It is above all else a game. Furthermore it is a game without the burden of needing to represent anything that actually happened or existed. It is irrelevant how cavalry worked when cavalry was still relevant, because what we all want is a solid, balanced representation of how we feel cavalry should work. (ie a majestic sweeping charge, devastating all that they come into contact with.)
If a player feels compelled to seek out a truer tabletop representation them I'm sure there's one or two systems out there that do a better job, and without the trolls and drug crazed, ball and chain wielding gobbos getting in the way of all the authenticity.
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Post by: Grey Templar
 Azreal13 wrote: Grey Templar wrote: Manfred von Drakken wrote: Grey Templar wrote:Not if they were foolish enough to charge a bunch of infantry in the front. Thats a one way ticket to losing all your cavalry.
Cavalry could not break line infantry in the front historically. They had to either flank them or hope and pray the infantry lost their nerve.
8th edition portrays this perfectly.
But thanks to steadfast, infantry never breaks from cavalry. Doesn't matter how hard the cavalry hits, most infantry units can more than soak the casualties and keep their steadfast. Cavalry tend to lose wars of attrition, which 8th edition basically is.
You act like that isn't what really happened historically.
Historically, were there Elves on dragon back or short angry alcoholics with magic hammers?
It is above all else a game. Furthermore it is a game without the burden of needing to represent anything that actually happened or existed. It is irrelevant how cavalry worked when cavalry was still relevant, because what we all want is a solid, balanced representation of how we feel cavalry should work. (ie a majestic sweeping charge, devastating all that they come into contact with.)
If a player feels compelled to seek out a truer tabletop representation them I'm sure there's one or two systems out there that do a better job, and without the trolls and drug crazed, ball and chain wielding gobbos getting in the way of all the authenticity.
Yes its a game of fantasy, but like all good fantasy it has a plenty of realism. Like real weaponry, following the rules of physics(except where its not desired), etc...
Cavalry is cavalry, weather they be riding horses or a raptor the principles would be the same. the raptor just is a little better in the actual melee.
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Post by: Vermis
If a player feels compelled to seek out a truer tabletop representation them I'm sure there's one or two systems out there that do a better job, and without the trolls and drug crazed, ball and chain wielding gobbos getting in the way of all the authenticity.
Or there are systems that let you have at least a bit of both, more or less. Who said it had to be either/or? Why does the mere existence of a dragon or a wizard make the basic interaction of hurtling horse + bunched grunts so much different?
But the truth is, it's not because of a romantic or realistic notion of cavalry, and it's not even because it's a game. It's because GW's beancounters like shaking up 'the product' because amazingly, that'll get previous customers to buy and rebuy and re-rebuy and so on, so forth; and some of them will give up and move to something a big more stable or sensible, but others will sit around and piss and moan until the next shakeup arbitrarily changes how cavalry interacts with infantry again. By, I dunno, making you count your ranks or some such nonsense. And then they get to piss and moan all over again.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
If you don't want to live in a world where an eagle can pull a chariot without it falling out of the fething sky every time the eagle slows even slightly, then go play a historical and leave the completely silly and suspension-of-disbelief-breaking eagle-chariots to the rest of it.
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Post by: Vermis
Edit: Y'know, not sure if serious. Trolling can sound too much like real GWombie rhetoric at times.
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Post by: Charles Rampant
There is in any fantasy work a balance to be struck between the fantastical and verisimilitude. You have something like Lord of the Rings, which tends towards a fairly mundane (safer word than 'realistic') depiction: no flying eagle chariots here! Then you get the more extravagant stuff like Warcraft, where realism plays no role. In the middle is WFB, but it definitely tends towards the fantastical side of things, what with all the flying stone monsters and wildly over the top magic.
Do the cavalry rules in WFB reflect historical reality? Not exactly, and I doubt that the rules designers are trying to make them an accurate depiction. But they do have a reasonably close adherence - cavalry are good on the charge, move fast, don't like getting into long drawn out melees with infantry, and are more expensive per guy than the same dude on foot. This is all about right, and I think has been consistent for many editions. The question of how they should do on the charge versus infantry blocks is one that WFB has always tinkered with, and we should probably not view this as anything to do with realism: it is all about their in-game purpose. Having established cavalry in a relatively realistic place, the need to balance the game (in part to sell infantry or cavalry models, as mentioned by posters above) takes over for the minutiae of the charge rules.
Of course, you can desire greater verisimilitude than we are getting from the cavalry rules (though I'd suggest that the BSB rules, and panic/fear rules in general, are more in need of addressing on that front), and that is a valid desire, being subjective and all. Unfortunately I think that you'd want to head into Historicals to scratch that itch; I don't think that other fantasy games like Hordes have even as much concern about verisimilitude as WFB.
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Post by: Vermis
Blimey, I'd hope so.
Unfortunately I think that you'd want to head into Historicals to scratch that itch; I don't think that other fantasy games like Hordes have even as much concern about verisimilitude as WFB.
If you're just looking at the handful of other fantasy minis+rules packages driven by unsubtle image and kooky character-centred rules, and - more to the point - mostly turn out to be skirmish games like Hordes, you might not scratch that itch. But like I said, there are others.
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Post by: Korinov
It's a fantastic setting with flying chariots pulled by eagles, fine*
Still, we have heavy chainmail cavalry charging into spearmen formations. It's not that difficult to tweak the rules towards making that a realistic clash. Claiming "it's fantasy!" does not constitute a valid excuse for poor and lazy rules design.
* well, no, really, not fine. The eagle chariots rank very high among the most slowed ideas I've ever seen. How that got made into a model is beyond me.
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Post by: AlexHolker
Korinov wrote:It's a fantastic setting with flying chariots pulled by eagles, fine*
* well, no, really, not fine. The eagle chariots rank very high among the most slowed ideas I've ever seen. How that got made into a model is beyond me.
Even the concept isn't the problem - all they needed to do is make it less boat and more kite, so the flying chariot looked like a feasible towed glider.
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Post by: TheAuldGrump
AlexHolker wrote: Korinov wrote:It's a fantastic setting with flying chariots pulled by eagles, fine*
* well, no, really, not fine. The eagle chariots rank very high among the most slowed ideas I've ever seen. How that got made into a model is beyond me.
Even the concept isn't the problem - all they needed to do is make it less boat and more kite, so the flying chariot looked like a feasible towed glider.
What they need to do is break all of the molds and pretend that aberration never happened.
It was a terrible idea that ended up getting a terrible model.
The Auld Grump
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Post by: Alpharius
47 pages in - are we out of rumors?
We seem to be out of news...
I'm thinking this thread needs to be closed, and when we actually have some new rumors or...news, we can start another one?
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Post by: overtyrant
Sounds good if it means I don't have to have a look every hour to see if there I any rumours.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Although you know as soon as this is locked somebody will start a new one.....
may be better to keep it all in one place
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Post by: Accolade
Alpharius wrote:47 pages in - are we out of rumors?
We seem to be out of news...
I'm thinking this thread needs to be closed, and when we actually have some new rumors or...news, we can start another one?
Well, it's been a fun ride. I don't imagine we will have anything concrete for a month or two. This thread seems to have succeeded in bringing these big rumors to light with the WHFB community, which I feel is the most important aspect. Should these changes to WHFB come to pass, hopefully there will be a minimum of people who get caught spending large sums of money on a game that radically changes in a few month's time, in which case we've done our good deed to the gaming community.
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Post by: edlowe
Well theres the combined orcs and ogres rumour which seems to be confirmed with the new end times book. What with grimgor being incarnate of beasts and his abilitys affecting orcs and ogrss?
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Alpharius wrote:47 pages in - are we out of rumors?
We seem to be out of news...
I'm thinking this thread needs to be closed, and when we actually have some new rumors or...news, we can start another one?
I'm pretty sure more news will pop up, and I think it is best to just keep it here.
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Post by: Ozymandias
*raises hand* There has been a recent revival of WHFB in my local group, I think we're all just going to stick with 8th if 9th goes the way all the rumors are pointing.
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Post by: Alpharius
JohnHwangDD wrote: Alpharius wrote:47 pages in - are we out of rumors?
We seem to be out of news...
I'm thinking this thread needs to be closed, and when we actually have some new rumors or...news, we can start another one?
I'm pretty sure more news will pop up, and I think it is best to just keep it here.
IF it can stay on topic?
Sure.
If not?
Well...
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Post by: TheAuldGrump
We are seeing a lot of contention because people are really worried about what will happen to a game that they have invested in - it brings out all of our poo flinging instincts.
A lot of what I am reading is making me very nervous - and I would say that I am doubtful of the veracity, except I remember what happened with WotC and 4th edition D&D (which proves that even large companies will burn bridges that they are standing on when the start the fire). When a company gets panicked about one of their properties... they can do really stupid things.
It is all too easy to picture the panicked GW behemoth destroying the game with its frenzied thrashing about.
They know something is wrong, they want sales to recover.
But they are unwilling to admit that the failure is their own fault. That they need to reconnect with their audience.
Heck, they need to know what that audience is.
So, it seems all too likely that they are producing a version of Warhammer that has been trampled by a panicked mammoth.
I honestly think that GW would benefit, in a financial manner, from releasing the rules and army books for older editions - either as e-books or as printed 'collector's editions'.
If nothing else, it would give them data points about which editions maintain enough loyalty to be worth pursuing.
I can say that I would buy a copy of the third edition rules - my copy has started shedding pages. (My favorite edition of the game - and the version most compatible with Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. Not a coincident.)
But given that the armies have changed so very much from those halcyon days of yore it is unlikely that they would go that far back.... (Back when all the armies could be contained in a single book - and the Slann were pretty much renamed bullywugs....)
The Auld Grump
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Post by: knighthaunter
 TheAuldGrump wrote:
I can say that I would buy a copy of the third edition rules - my copy has started shedding pages. (My favorite edition of the game - and the version most compatible with Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. Not a coincident.)
this is why i own 3 copies of that book (one that barely qualifies as a book anymore, i have to say this whole thing really make me a bit nauseous, i have a lot of history in this game, a lot of fond memories of friends and my own kids that involve "The Hobby" and every one of them to a man says the same thing when they look at these rumors...i did not start playing fantasy to have small skirmish battles.
its funny, my gaming group has been discussing for some time prior doing some old chaos champion campaigns that culminated in large scale chaos battles...i guess GW may be giving me a reason to go totally oldhammer.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
 knighthaunter wrote:
this is why i own 3 copies of that book (one that barely qualifies as a book anymore, i have to say this whole thing really make me a bit nauseous, i have a lot of history in this game, a lot of fond memories of friends and my own kids that involve "The Hobby" and every one of them to a man says the same thing when they look at these rumors...i did not start playing fantasy to have small skirmish battles.
If you played back in 3E-5E, I'm pretty sure that your battles were far smaller than what GW currently pushes in 8E.
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Post by: shade1313
 Ozymandias wrote:
*raises hand* There has been a recent revival of WHFB in my local group, I think we're all just going to stick with 8th if 9th goes the way all the rumors are pointing.
Same here. I'm scouting to pick up those gaps in my armies and all the books I need, just in case these rumors bear out.
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Post by: Arch-Fiend
So, it seems all too likely that they are producing a version of Warhammer that has been trampled by a panicked mammoth.
I honestly think that GW would benefit, in a financial manner, from releasing the rules and army books for older editions - either as e-books or as printed 'collector's editions'.
If nothing else, it would give them data points about which editions maintain enough loyalty to be worth pursuing.
I can say that I would buy a copy of the third edition rules - my copy has started shedding pages. (My favorite edition of the game - and the version most compatible with Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. Not a coincident.)
But given that the armies have changed so very much from those halcyon days of yore it is unlikely that they would go that far back.... (Back when all the armies could be contained in a single book - and the Slann were pretty much renamed bullywugs....)
Yes this to support older editions would provide those playing bigger, square-based games a way to enjoy the mass-movement style of Warhammer Fantasy, assuming if GW really does change WHF to a circle-base skirmish game. I
EDIT: Damn I was trying to quote that!
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Post by: TheAuldGrump
JohnHwangDD wrote: knighthaunter wrote:
this is why i own 3 copies of that book (one that barely qualifies as a book anymore, i have to say this whole thing really make me a bit nauseous, i have a lot of history in this game, a lot of fond memories of friends and my own kids that involve "The Hobby" and every one of them to a man says the same thing when they look at these rumors...i did not start playing fantasy to have small skirmish battles.
If you played back in 3E-5E, I'm pretty sure that your battles were far smaller than what GW currently pushes in 8E.
In my case we had some pretty danged big battles - enough to fill the length of a Ping Pong table on each side. Each player bringing a part of the army. I can't remember the points values from back then, but it was lots.
Mostly Ral Partha minis - and some of those players now use those same figures, and that same table, for running Battlesystem games. (The one by TSR, from back in the eighties.)
My area is rich in Grognards.
The Auld Grump
22756
Post by: knighthaunter
TheAuldGrump wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote: knighthaunter wrote:
this is why i own 3 copies of that book (one that barely qualifies as a book anymore, i have to say this whole thing really make me a bit nauseous, i have a lot of history in this game, a lot of fond memories of friends and my own kids that involve "The Hobby" and every one of them to a man says the same thing when they look at these rumors...i did not start playing fantasy to have small skirmish battles.
If you played back in 3E-5E, I'm pretty sure that your battles were far smaller than what GW currently pushes in 8E.
In my case we had some pretty danged big battles - enough to fill the length of a Ping Pong table on each side. Each player bringing a part of the army. I can't remember the points values from back then, but it was lots.
Mostly Ral Partha minis - and some of those players now use those same figures, and that same table, for running Battlesystem games. (The one by TSR, from back in the eighties.)
My area is rich in Grognards.
The Auld Grump
That's us as well, we played on a ping pong table to, this myth that the game was small back in these days (3rd/4th we were mainly out of the game for most of 5th) just isn't true for the people i know, sure for the times it was still a spendy game, but people also were more apt to play with non GW armies back then, the dwarf player in my group hardly had any GW figures in his army. really most of the battles we had then by model count were significantly larger than the 3k or so battles i play today. We played in a pretty tight group of people so i cant speak for the averages of other people but the battles we did back in that era were typically pretty huge.
68802
Post by: TheAuldGrump
knighthaunter wrote: TheAuldGrump wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote: knighthaunter wrote:
this is why i own 3 copies of that book (one that barely qualifies as a book anymore, i have to say this whole thing really make me a bit nauseous, i have a lot of history in this game, a lot of fond memories of friends and my own kids that involve "The Hobby" and every one of them to a man says the same thing when they look at these rumors...i did not start playing fantasy to have small skirmish battles.
If you played back in 3E-5E, I'm pretty sure that your battles were far smaller than what GW currently pushes in 8E.
In my case we had some pretty danged big battles - enough to fill the length of a Ping Pong table on each side. Each player bringing a part of the army. I can't remember the points values from back then, but it was lots.
Mostly Ral Partha minis - and some of those players now use those same figures, and that same table, for running Battlesystem games. (The one by TSR, from back in the eighties.)
My area is rich in Grognards.
The Auld Grump
That's us as well, we played on a ping pong table to, this myth that the game was small back in these days (3rd/4th we were mainly out of the game for most of 5th) just isn't true for the people i know, sure for the times it was still a spendy game, but people also were more apt to play with non GW armies back then, the dwarf player in my group hardly had any GW figures in his army. really most of the battles we had then by model count were significantly larger than the 3k or so battles i play today. We played in a pretty tight group of people so i cant speak for the averages of other people but the battles we did back in that era were typically pretty huge.
And we were small compared to the WWII games - who would use the floor at the Armory gymnasium. (The Armory was just that - a National Guard Armory, and is closed now.)
The Auld Grump Automatically Appended Next Post: On topic - Warhammer has been a large scale game since at least third edition - though second edition had some excellent small scale scenarios. McDeath, Lichemaster....
I think that instead of trying to forge into new territory the folks at GW need to look at what used to work, and try to recapture that feeling.
I think that most of the damage being done to the property is what they are doing with the forces involved - having a big box o' halberdiers worked a whole lot better than needing to buy four boxes to make one unit.
I loved the poseable plastic infantry boxes when they first came out - and used them for a lot of games, not just Warhammer.
Then they lost the posability. I can't help but think that they got rid of the ability to build your own models, and even combine pieces across sets, because people were using them for games other than Warhammer.
Then they dropped the numbers of figures in a box. Then they had the gall to wonder why sales were dropping.
Then they started focusing on units that had built in elite versions - and charged the prices for the elite unit.
Now... over the top pieces of dung in all the armies. Eagles pulling trailers. Top heavy war altars. Skeletons surfing on giant metal cobras....
I don't love them any more.
More and more, I am thinking that ninth edition is going to be the last nail in the coffin lid for Warhammer - and the corpse has already started drawing flies.
The Auld Grump - Kings of War is filling the hole for me - but I miss at least liking Warhammer.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
TheAuldGrump wrote:I loved the poseable plastic infantry boxes when they first came out - and used them for a lot of games, not just Warhammer.
Then they lost the posability. I can't help but think that they got rid of the ability to build your own models, and even combine pieces across sets, because people were using them for games other than Warhammer.
Then they dropped the numbers of figures in a box. Then they had the gall to wonder why sales were dropping.
Then they started focusing on units that had built in elite versions - and charged the prices for the elite unit.
I can't imagine GW got rid of posability because people were buying the kits. That makes no sense, even for GW. GW got rid of posability, because it took up more space on the sprue and it raised the bar to entry compared to a simpler snap-fit kit that a child could assemble. The improved ranking and durability don't hurt, though.
The reduced figure count was naked profit-taking, but consider Girl Scout Cookies. Quick, how many Thin Mints per box? 40? Wrong. That just got cut to 32 cookies, -20% less stuff. And they raised the price from $4 to $5, a +25% price hike. Combined, for the same 160 cookies, we went from $16 (4 boxes of 40) to $25 (5 boxes of 32) - a +56.25% price increase. Those fething money grubbing monsters bumped the price of cookies so much, it makes GW look saintly and restrained.
The 2-in-1 and 3-in-1 kits aren't a bad thing, but yes, the prices went up even further! Pity, as some of those kits are quite pretty.
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Post by: Prestor Jon
JohnHwangDD wrote: TheAuldGrump wrote:I loved the poseable plastic infantry boxes when they first came out - and used them for a lot of games, not just Warhammer.
Then they lost the posability. I can't help but think that they got rid of the ability to build your own models, and even combine pieces across sets, because people were using them for games other than Warhammer.
Then they dropped the numbers of figures in a box. Then they had the gall to wonder why sales were dropping.
Then they started focusing on units that had built in elite versions - and charged the prices for the elite unit.
I can't imagine GW got rid of posability because people were buying the kits. That makes no sense, even for GW. GW got rid of posability, because it took up more space on the sprue and it raised the bar to entry compared to a simpler snap-fit kit that a child could assemble. The improved ranking and durability don't hurt, though.
The reduced figure count was naked profit-taking, but consider Girl Scout Cookies. Quick, how many Thin Mints per box? 40? Wrong. That just got cut to 32 cookies, -20% less stuff. And they raised the price from $4 to $5, a +25% price hike. Combined, for the same 160 cookies, we went from $16 (4 boxes of 40) to $25 (5 boxes of 32) - a +56.25% price increase. Those fething money grubbing monsters bumped the price of cookies so much, it makes GW look saintly and restrained.
The 2-in-1 and 3-in-1 kits aren't a bad thing, but yes, the prices went up even further! Pity, as some of those kits are quite pretty.
You're getting ripped off by the Girls Scouts in SoCal dude. I bought cookies this past weekend for $3/box.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Prestor Jon wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote: TheAuldGrump wrote:I loved the poseable plastic infantry boxes when they first came out - and used them for a lot of games, not just Warhammer.
Then they lost the posability. I can't help but think that they got rid of the ability to build your own models, and even combine pieces across sets, because people were using them for games other than Warhammer.
Then they dropped the numbers of figures in a box. Then they had the gall to wonder why sales were dropping.
Then they started focusing on units that had built in elite versions - and charged the prices for the elite unit.
I can't imagine GW got rid of posability because people were buying the kits. That makes no sense, even for GW. GW got rid of posability, because it took up more space on the sprue and it raised the bar to entry compared to a simpler snap-fit kit that a child could assemble. The improved ranking and durability don't hurt, though.
The reduced figure count was naked profit-taking, but consider Girl Scout Cookies. Quick, how many Thin Mints per box? 40? Wrong. That just got cut to 32 cookies, -20% less stuff. And they raised the price from $4 to $5, a +25% price hike. Combined, for the same 160 cookies, we went from $16 (4 boxes of 40) to $25 (5 boxes of 32) - a +56.25% price increase. Those fething money grubbing monsters bumped the price of cookies so much, it makes GW look saintly and restrained.
The 2-in-1 and 3-in-1 kits aren't a bad thing, but yes, the prices went up even further! Pity, as some of those kits are quite pretty.
You're getting ripped off by the Girls Scouts in SoCal dude. I bought cookies this past weekend for $3/box.
Were they restic?
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Prestor Jon wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote: TheAuldGrump wrote:Then they dropped the numbers of figures in a box. Then they had the gall to wonder why sales were dropping.
Then they started focusing on units that had built in elite versions - and charged the prices for the elite unit.
The reduced figure count was naked profit-taking, but consider Girl Scout Cookies. Quick, how many Thin Mints per box? 40? Wrong. That just got cut to 32 cookies, -20% less stuff. And they raised the price from $4 to $5, a +25% price hike. Combined, for the same 160 cookies, we went from $16 (4 boxes of 40) to $25 (5 boxes of 32) - a +56.25% price increase. Those fething money grubbing monsters bumped the price of cookies so much, it makes GW look saintly and restrained.
You're getting ripped off by the Girls Scouts in SoCal dude. I bought cookies this past weekend for $3/box.
You're only paying $3/box???
RAAGE!!!!!
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Post by: TheAuldGrump
JohnHwangDD wrote: TheAuldGrump wrote:I loved the poseable plastic infantry boxes when they first came out - and used them for a lot of games, not just Warhammer.
Then they lost the posability. I can't help but think that they got rid of the ability to build your own models, and even combine pieces across sets, because people were using them for games other than Warhammer.
Then they dropped the numbers of figures in a box. Then they had the gall to wonder why sales were dropping.
Then they started focusing on units that had built in elite versions - and charged the prices for the elite unit.
I can't imagine GW got rid of posability because people were buying the kits. That makes no sense, even for GW. GW got rid of posability, because it took up more space on the sprue and it raised the bar to entry compared to a simpler snap-fit kit that a child could assemble. The improved ranking and durability don't hurt, though.
The reduced figure count was naked profit-taking, but consider Girl Scout Cookies. Quick, how many Thin Mints per box? 40? Wrong. That just got cut to 32 cookies, -20% less stuff. And they raised the price from $4 to $5, a +25% price hike. Combined, for the same 160 cookies, we went from $16 (4 boxes of 40) to $25 (5 boxes of 32) - a +56.25% price increase. Those fething money grubbing monsters bumped the price of cookies so much, it makes GW look saintly and restrained.
The 2-in-1 and 3-in-1 kits aren't a bad thing, but yes, the prices went up even further! Pity, as some of those kits are quite pretty.
You know... either I am a genius at posing properly so the figures can be ranked up easily, or the problem is just not as bad as GW would like you to believe. I never had that problem.
And I do not believe that it is because I am a genius at posing miniatures.
I may grant you the space on the frames, but I pretty much stopped buying when they lost the poseable aspect. That was pretty much why I bought so many of the older sets of plastics. (Plus, the detail went way] down - using the smaller pieces meant a lot fewer undercuts to allow for.)
I never bothered counting the cookies for Girl Scout cookies - the point is not the cookies, it is supporting the Girl Scouts.
The Auld Grump, as long as the cookies are made with real Girl Scouts.
*EDIT* As for the Three In One and Two In One Kits... I think that they pretty much universally look like dung, at least in regards to the war machines and big monsters. Some of the infantry and cavalry look okay - but not at those prices.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
IIRC, Empire Swordsmen & Militia don't rank particularly well.
I have a *bunch* of old Empire infantry, NOS. Wanna buy it? I'll give you a fair price.
Going forward, I'm thinking maybe just give $5. Girls and I both probably come out ahead with a straight charitable donation.
I rather like the look of the HE 2-in-1 Shadow Warriors / Sisters of Avelorn kit:
$50 is a bit steep, but I might try to hunt them on discount for Mordheim.
If you start talking about how you're eating Girl Scouts, I think you'll go to jail.
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Post by: TheAuldGrump
JohnHwangDD wrote:IIRC, Empire Swordsmen & Militia don't rank particularly well.
I have a *bunch* of old Empire infantry, NOS. Wanna buy it? I'll give you a fair price.
The Militia are kind of a special case - they were intended for a skirmish game, and, I think, were fielded as skirmishers in one of the older editions of Warhammer. They weren't really intended to rank up.
But I never had that problem with the Swordsmen/Halberdiers... problems with the halberds losing their blades, yest. Ranking up, no.
Going forward, I'm thinking maybe just give $5. Girls and I both probably come out ahead with a straight charitable donation.
I rather like the look of the HE 2-in-1 Shadow Warriors / Sisters of Avelorn kit:
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Shadow-Warriors
If you start talking about how you're eating Girl Scouts, I think you'll go to jail.
As I said, the infantry and cavalry 2-in-1 sets can look decent - and I will definitely give you your example as looking downright good. *EDIT* Until I saw the bow and sword combo... Watch the High Elves being unable to shoot arrows and not be able to effectively deflect blows! Put either the bows or the swords away, dummies.
But looking at the pieces of phlegm for the sphinx thingies, the war altar thingies, and Mortis Engine thingies... they are brown and sound like a bell. (Dung!) As do the huge chested gryphons that were saddled by the Empire. (But lots of good eating on those things! Plenty of white meat!)
The Auld Grump
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
The Militia are definitely "special" - they are terrible for ranking up.
I kinda want a set of Shadow Warriors because the posing and options look good. Very stylish bodies for weapon swaps.
I've kind of ignored the WFB monsters since they moved to plastic. I think the newest monster I own is the Forest Dragon, but it could be the "bullhead" Keeper of Secrets. Sure, the new stuff has lots of detail, but I rather like the Lizardmen dinosaurs. Those look they'd be a lot of fun to play with. Pity they're so expensive.
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Post by: Dorrand
That sums it up perfectly.
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Post by: Alpharius
Help me out here - is any of this actually On Topic?
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Post by: Ozymandias
It's not, not off-topic Alph.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Are 3-in-1 kits and giant Monsters not the rumored direction of WFB? Same with Grimdark (tm) High Elves like the Shadow Warriors?
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Post by: jonolikespie
JohnHwangDD wrote:Are 3-in-1 kits and giant Monsters not the rumored direction of WFB? Same with Grimdark ( tm) High Elves like the Shadow Warriors?
I hope not. I got really excited when those shadow warriors came out, then they turned out to be the same 5 models repeated with no options or possibility and I suddenly regretted buying 40 of them.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Well, that's pretty disappointing. OTOH, for Mordheim, maybe that's OK.
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Post by: BorderCountess
Not really, no. Just a lot of griping. Is the griping deserved? Probably. But griping is neither News nor Rumors. I keep checking this thread when I see new posts, hoping there might be something new, but no luck.
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Post by: TheAuldGrump
And with the way GW handles public announcements... there will be no announcement until a few weeks before the new game is released.
I swear to Gogamagog, GW does the opposite of advertising...
The Auld Grump
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Post by: HobbyBox
TheAuldGrump wrote:And with the way GW handles public announcements... there will be no announcement until a few weeks before the new game is released.
I swear to Gogamagog, GW does the opposite of advertising...
The Auld Grump
That is their way.
In all honesty though, they do need to wait until Archaon is released before they can really start getting into specifics about drastic changes for a new edition (or entirely new game). They put resources into the End Times so they really need to allow that to earn the money it can on its own before it starts charting the future publicly. So, IMHO, there is nothing wrong with their silence at this point.
However, I will agree that it has affected my plans for the future. I've been working on putting together an Empire army for some time and was just about to start pumping away at it. Now, looks like they are in for some pretty massive changes, meaning it is really hard to devote lots of time to prep them for tournaments if 9th Ed invalidates units from my army.
I will agree, if there is still no word of the changes a few weeks after the Archaon book is released, it probably is the time to pull out the torches and pitchforks and start moving on Nottingham and Memphis. Until then, I'll just sit back, watch and hope things improve.
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Post by: Kanluwen
I'm wondering if these formations are a good indicator of what kind of rules changes we might be seeing.
Cavalry getting +D3 Combat Resolution instead of the standard +1 for charging would be a Big Deal.
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Post by: Mr Morden
Kanluwen wrote:I'm wondering if these formations are a good indicator of what kind of rules changes we might be seeing.
Cavalry getting +D3 Combat Resolution instead of the standard +1 for charging would be a Big Deal.
As long as spearmen and similar get ASF against cavalry
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Post by: Kanluwen
Mr Morden wrote: Kanluwen wrote:I'm wondering if these formations are a good indicator of what kind of rules changes we might be seeing.
Cavalry getting +D3 Combat Resolution instead of the standard +1 for charging would be a Big Deal.
As long as spearmen and similar get ASF against cavalry
To be fair, infantry already have a big advantage.
Spears get to fight in an additional rank as well, soo...
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Post by: His Master's Voice
Kanluwen wrote:Cavalry getting +D3 Combat Resolution instead of the standard +1 for charging would be a Big Deal.
I sure hope not. We don't need any more randomness in this game.
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Post by: Fango
TheAuldGrump wrote: As for the Three In One and Two In One Kits... I think that they pretty much universally look like dung, at least in regards to the war machines and big monsters. Some of the infantry and cavalry look okay - but not at those prices.
I think the Hell Pitt Abomination is quite good, it isn't technically a 2 in 1 kit, but there are different builds in the kit as far as arms/weapons. The Wood Elf Tree guy is pretty nice as well...but really this is all based on personal preference on aesthetics, etc..Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder and all that...
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Post by: Oloh
WhispererofTruth wrote:Araloth
Cauldron of Blood/Bloodwrack Shrine
Eternal Guard/Wildwood Rangers
Sisters of the Thorn/Wildriders of Kurnous
Witch Elves of Khaine/Sisters of Slaughter
Treeman
Savage Orcs
Night Goblins
Night Goblin Fanatics
Stonehorn/Thundertusk
Mournfang Cavalry
Thanquol and Boneripper
Vermin Lord
Warlord
Grey Seer
Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace
Stormvermin
Stormfiends
Doomwheel
Hellpit Abomination
Nagash
Coven Throne/Mortis Engine
Terrorgheist/Zombie Dragon
Mortarchs
Morghasts
Glottkin
Maggoth Lords
Gutrot Spume
Blightkings
Gorereapers
Wrathmongers
Chaos Spawn
Chaos Warshrine
Chaos Daemons
Ghorgon/Cygor
Grimm Burlockson
Josef Bugman
Runesmith
Ironbreakers/Irondrakes
Gyrocopter
No Spirit Hosts? End times model.
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Post by: BorderCountess
Oloh wrote: WhispererofTruth wrote:Araloth
Cauldron of Blood/Bloodwrack Shrine
Eternal Guard/Wildwood Rangers
Sisters of the Thorn/Wildriders of Kurnous
Witch Elves of Khaine/Sisters of Slaughter
Treeman
Savage Orcs
Night Goblins
Night Goblin Fanatics
Stonehorn/Thundertusk
Mournfang Cavalry
Thanquol and Boneripper
Vermin Lord
Warlord
Grey Seer
Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace
Stormvermin
Stormfiends
Doomwheel
Hellpit Abomination
Nagash
Coven Throne/Mortis Engine
Terrorgheist/Zombie Dragon
Mortarchs
Morghasts
Glottkin
Maggoth Lords
Gutrot Spume
Blightkings
Gorereapers
Wrathmongers
Chaos Spawn
Chaos Warshrine
Chaos Daemons
Ghorgon/Cygor
Grimm Burlockson
Josef Bugman
Runesmith
Ironbreakers/Irondrakes
Gyrocopter
No Spirit Hosts? End times model.
I think just that one bolded line can toss this whole list as anything worth considering. Cuz, you know, getting names wrong doesn't lend credibility given how closely timed things were.
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Post by: Alpharius
Still no real news or rumors in here?
We're getting closer...
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Post by: BorderCountess
Oh, just do it already.
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Post by: WhispererofTruth
Oloh wrote: WhispererofTruth wrote:Araloth Cauldron of Blood/Bloodwrack Shrine Eternal Guard/Wildwood Rangers Sisters of the Thorn/Wildriders of Kurnous Witch Elves of Khaine/Sisters of Slaughter Treeman Savage Orcs Night Goblins Night Goblin Fanatics Stonehorn/Thundertusk Mournfang Cavalry Thanquol and Boneripper Vermin Lord Warlord Grey Seer Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace Stormvermin Stormfiends Doomwheel Hellpit Abomination Nagash Coven Throne/Mortis Engine Terrorgheist/Zombie Dragon Mortarchs Morghasts Glottkin Maggoth Lords Gutrot Spume Blightkings Gorereapers Wrathmongers Chaos Spawn Chaos Warshrine Chaos Daemons Ghorgon/Cygor Grimm Burlockson Josef Bugman Runesmith Ironbreakers/Irondrakes Gyrocopter
No Spirit Hosts? End times model.
Most likely. I didn't get handed a big long list of stuff that was surviving. This was a list of stuff I put together based on things I heard was surviving hence why I thought somethings were missing.Which they most definatley were. I heard the Vortex Beast kit will make it too just last week for instance. There's also some units I expect to survive but just not in the same form as before such as Squigs and Chosen for example. @Mannfred: I can respect that line of thinking, but when you here a vague outline of something a few months before, making sure you got the name right takes the backseat over finding out more about what it is. :p
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Post by: Crazyterran
Apparently the Empire doesn't make it at all! Or Brettonia!
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Post by: Charles Rampant
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/02/wfb-9th-rules-bases-faction-changes.html
Some updated rumours over on Bell of Lost souls. Characters unable to join units? Warmachines on round bases and attached to units? Elite units have a size of 2-5? What do you think?
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Post by: Shandara
I think salt.
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Post by: Dropbear Victim
Just hypothetically speaking - if fantasy is completely overhauled and does die off, do you think GW should rename itself Game Workshop? I say this as a joke, yet I could see GW going down to a single game system in the future.
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Post by: Mr Morden
Pretty much all gone as of the most recent ET book, I think one city is still standing -the rest are gone? Middenheim, Altdorf, Nuln and Talebheim def gone.
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Post by: TheAuldGrump
I'm thinking that I really like Kings of War. This sounds very familiar
In Kings of War Warmachines being 'Attached' to units means that you need to get a solid unit to get a Warmachine, not that the Rangers need to be lugging a cannon around with them if you want the cannon. If so, then this isn't as bad as it sounds.
Unfortunately, Characters not joining units is my least favorite part of the Kings of War rules - especially since they sold one character with a 'bodyguard' unit that it couldn't use....
Elites being units of 2-5... I'm glad that I like Kings of War....
The Auld Grump
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Post by: Baragash
TheAuldGrump wrote:Unfortunately, Characters not joining units is my least favorite part of the Kings of War rules - especially since they sold one character with a 'bodyguard' unit that it couldn't use....The Auld Grump
Whilst nothing will happen for KoW2, I have made a proposal to Ronnie to be explored for the campaign/siege supplement which won't be exactly what you want, but may make it not so bad
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Post by: Yodhrin
I suppose at this point the best fans of the existing Fantasy background can hope for is that GW/BL get C.L. Werner to write more "historical" novels, set in the pre-End Times realms.
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Post by: Chopxsticks
I dont see how characters not joining units is an issue???
*correct me if I'm wrong, I have not gotten to play in a year*
Cant characters take a look out sir if they are within a set distance from the unit already? Also most characters have a bubble, could they not just add more of that.
I for one like this. Characters rarely rank up as it is, and they tend to be the model I spend real time painting. So its nice if its on the outside.
Does Warmachine do something like this already? where the character confirms a bonus to the army for just being there? I thought that was the cool dynamic of Warmachine, you could field the same units, but they would do something different by just changing the hero choice?
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Post by: Vermis
TheAuldGrump wrote:
Unfortunately, Characters not joining units is my least favorite part of the Kings of War rules
Yup. They can't lead units, can't command regiments, just run around playing the same role as a lone rat ogre or chaos spawn...
Still much better than the biggest competition overall, tho.
Baragash wrote:
Whilst nothing will happen for KoW2...
Oh poo. Looks like my bookshelf won't be weighed down much more in the near future, then.
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Post by: Pacific
Dropbear Victim wrote:Just hypothetically speaking - if fantasy is completely overhauled and does die off, do you think GW should rename itself Game Workshop? I say this as a joke, yet I could see GW going down to a single game system in the future.
There was some discussion of this a while ago, actually 'Game Consume' would be a better name, as the 'workshop' part of it hasn't been relevant for quite some years also.
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Post by: jojo_monkey_boy
I remain hopeful that this new edition will make the game more accessible. I don't like the current paradigm of having to spell an inordinate amount of money just to get an army to a playable stage. If they're addressing that, I consider it a step forward.
I understand people are upset about their armies potentially being turfed. It would be disappointing to be a Bretonnian player reading these rumours. However, there is logic to what is happening, in relation to the way GW has been responding to IP concerns. Again, it sucks if you've invested in given armies, but I guess that's life?
I've all but put my WFB hobby on hold for the time being. I don't see the sense in painting models that may not be usable in a few months. I'm still crossing my fingers though...
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Post by: Fayric
Pacific wrote:Dropbear Victim wrote:Just hypothetically speaking - if fantasy is completely overhauled and does die off, do you think GW should rename itself Game Workshop? I say this as a joke, yet I could see GW going down to a single game system in the future.
There was some discussion of this a while ago, actually 'Game Consume' would be a better name, as the 'workshop' part of it hasn't been relevant for quite some years also.
How about plain Game Shop. Im sure the people making the decisions just give a discrete *cough* in the middle of the company name these days
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Post by: Chopxsticks
 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:I remain hopeful that this new edition will make the game more accessible. I don't like the current paradigm of having to spell an inordinate amount of money just to get an army to a playable stage. If they're addressing that, I consider it a step forward.
I understand people are upset about their armies potentially being turfed. It would be disappointing to be a Bretonnian player reading these rumours. However, there is logic to what is happening, in relation to the way GW has been responding to IP concerns. Again, it sucks if you've invested in given armies, but I guess that's life?
I've all but put my WFB hobby on hold for the time being. I don't see the sense in painting models that may not be usable in a few months. I'm still crossing my fingers though...
I do as well, I still think games can be played in larger scale. People find a way. Allowing for smaller games though is a great entry into the game. I know I will be able to talk some friends into finally playing if they can get in with 10-20 models and not 110 day one.
Im also in the same boat, so many figure in limbo cuss im not sure if they are going to round bases.
But you know what, I dont play any games now, so the future can only get more promising for me...
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Post by: Rainbow Dash
Dropbear Victim wrote:Just hypothetically speaking - if fantasy is completely overhauled and does die off, do you think GW should rename itself Game Workshop? I say this as a joke, yet I could see GW going down to a single game system in the future.
Yeah I doubt Fantasy will survive after what (late 7th) and 8th did to it...
9th seems to sound just awful...
I grew to like 8th but, when the very real worry of your army being unusable looming over you... and GW's done that to me before, I have little hope.
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Post by: Vermis
Chopxsticks wrote:
I do as well, I still think games can be played in larger scale. People find a way.
I would be extraordinarily surprised, or demoralised, if people with existing editions of the Warhammer rulebook (or better suited mass battle rulesets) couldn't find a way.
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Post by: Chopxsticks
If anything I would like to either see GW (highly doubt) or a group of enthusiasts go back through and combine profiles of all models to reflect the changes made such as the End time units that released with combined profiles. I mean they have to right??? How can You have a models like the maggoth Lords with combined stat block, yet then have Mournfang with 2 seperate stat blocks..
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Post by: Breotan
So, I saw this on FB this evening.
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/02/wfb-9th-rules-bases-faction-changes.html
BoLS wrote:WFB 9th: Rules, Bases & Faction Changes
OK, this one takes some explaining:
This is a conversation between Harry, and Ikitlagriffe over on Warseer. Ikitlagriffe initially wrote up a list of information on WFB 9th which was unclear. Harry then condensed the initial information (the black standard text), and invited the original poster to verify the re-written information and add clarifications. Ikitlagriffe did so (THE RED ALL CAPS TEXT).
Then Harry offered some extra information and insight at the bottom.
Here goes:
Are these from your own sources YES, FROM DIFFERENT SOURCES.
or simply your interpretation of what you have collected from the interwebz? SERIOUSLY ?… NO.
I am pretty sure you speak English very much better than I speak any other language NOT SURE ! SORRY FOR THAT.
9th edition will be 90% the same as 8th edition YES, ABOUT RULES, SAME OPINION FROM 2 DIFFERENT SOURCES.
The new ‘Factions’ …
…will look so different from the existing armies they might as well be new armies YES
These new armies will be made from new units/characters MAJORITY YES
The new units will have a very different aesthetic from existing miniatures. 200% YES
The new units can be used by one or more of the existing armies. YES
OR can just be used as units for generic ‘Forces of order’ Or forces of destruction’ armies. NO
I can keep my “OLD COLLECTION” YES
… but don’t expect any new miniatures for a while? I CAN’T SAY THAT FROM WHAT I KNOW BUT LIKELY DEDUCTION
9th Edition will get a boxed set. I HEARD ABOUT A BOX OF BOOKS
In the box will be a rule book? YES
a skirmish Rule book YES / and a Warhammer armies book NOT EXACTLY : but a listing of playable units or pre-constructed groups YES.
The warhammer armies book will have a limited army list for each faction. YES, but I HAD NO INFORMATION ABOUT “FACTIONS”(and this number of “6” ??), so I would say “for each army”.
There is a points system. YES
But it is not compulsory (So you can pick ‘X’ number of characters/units from the selection) SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
Skirmish is not intended to be the main way to play Warhammer … but an alternative. YES
This will be a simple starter game without a lot of complex special rules. An introductory game. YES
Some fantasy miniatures will be supplied on round bases due to rules changes YES
… but not all…. just skirmishing units DON’T KNOW and units attached to ranked units? YES
…and big Warmachines? ATTACHED TO RANKED UNITS YES
Characters will be on round bases. (Or oval bases for cavalry) YES
… and so characters can no longer join ranked up units. PERSONAL DEDUCTION, BUT YES
I do not need to re-base my existing characters to use them YES – two times confirmed
Round bases are nothing to do with the new skirmish game YES.
You don’t know what is going on with round bases EXPLAINED BY MINOR CHANGES OF RULES, FROM WHAT I KNOW.
Bretonnians will not get a new army book and will not get any new units STRICTLY SPEAKING YES
There will be some units which are a bit like Bretonnians in a new ‘Forces of order’ book YES
Loads of stuff coming for Skaven but you don’t know when. YES
New skaven stuff will not look like the existing Skaven stuff but an evolution. YES
Beastmen … future is uncertain but you guess they will find a place in Chaos. YES, I GUESS.
Lots of new stuff to come for Fantasy. YES
Most stuff will be new units monsters or characters. YES
Elite units will be smaller 2-5 minis. YES
Look of armies will change. OH YES !
Smaller armies with less miniatures and more big stuff. LOGICALLY
No information about new rules. NO DETAILS YES, BUT IT SEEMS TO BE MINOR CHANGES.
Then Harry offers up his response:
“Firstly thanks for taking the time to do that …it is much appreciated … and not just by me I am sure.
It confirms a lot of stuff we have already heard ….
Whilst it would be great if 9th was 90% the same as 8th … my worry has always been about the miniatures.
I guess I don’t much like the new aesthetics what I always liked about Wahammer was the whole low tech, low fantasy, up to your knees in mud, feel it had. So I weep for the background … but the real question for me remains will the new factions get 90% of the attention in terms of the releases. I have heard some armies will not get anything new …. Will any of the existing armies ever get anything else that matches the current aesthetcs in the future … beyond the stuff that is already done and awaiting release window.”
Let me try to put a bow on this pile of info. The 9th rules are listed as being 90% the same as 8th, and will now include a skirmish game. So that means that it is in the area of factions and army construction that the big changes lie. A smaller number of factions will be there (“6″ keeps being posted), and only they will get new minatures development going forward. The new miniatures are described as very different in style than traditional existing WFB. I would assume that you can look at the newer End Times releases to get the visual vibe they are going for. Round bases are in for a subset of miniatures (characters, and warmachines are described). If you have an old army you can still play it, but it may effectively become an “orphan” in the new system, workable – but with little to no forward support in the new game. Finally I wouldn’t hold out much hope for new hardcover army books for either of Bretonnia or Beastmen.
Well, just call me Bad Luck Brian. :(
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Post by: streamdragon
So my beastmen are basically gone and my new skaven will look nothing like my current skaven.
unless they manage to really blow my mind with the new rules, looks like I can file GW in the same "cut ties" category as Blizzard.
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Post by: Breotan
Hopefully this applies more to the old clanrat/gutter runner/plague monk models and less to the new IoB Clanrats/Stormvermin/Rat Ogres.
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Post by: streamdragon
 Breotan wrote:Hopefully this applies more to the old clanrat/gutter runner/plague monk models and less to the new IoB Clanrats/Stormvermin/Rat Ogres.
I took it to mean more of the whole army style, but if they're just replacing the old monkey rats I'd be happy.
I doubt that's the plan, given that the rumors basically say "your old units are going away".
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Post by: NAVARRO
 streamdragon wrote: Breotan wrote:Hopefully this applies more to the old clanrat/gutter runner/plague monk models and less to the new IoB Clanrats/Stormvermin/Rat Ogres.
I took it to mean more of the whole army style, but if they're just replacing the old monkey rats I'd be happy.
I doubt that's the plan, given that the rumors basically say "your old units are going away".
I feel your pain much like Spiders for gobbos are going away rumor... I mean thats the main thing about me collecting gobbos in the first place. I must confess it has not stopped me from painting them. If there is no room for my army in the 9th its annoying but I will just use other rulesets and games to go with them. THing is the idea of a skirmish game to go with WFB is not bad in the paper but its implementation seems to head to a major nuke into the main massbattle game by invalidating huge chunks of your armies and that just sucks big time. Also the more I hear about rules and books etc the more I get the feeling its going to be like the ET book race... Nope my hobby is not to buy tons overpriced rulesets.
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Post by: Grot 6
The more that GW tries, the less they really give an effort here.
These rumors for the new game are really kinda.... rough.
Not really generating anything but a sense of loss for me. Fantasy was a pretty good game once upon a time.
Oh well, guess we check that Star Wars game out.
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Post by: Vermis
Or Kings of War, Mayhem, Legions of Battle, Armies of Arcana, Fantasy Rules!, etc. etc. etc.
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Post by: TheKbob
Those rumors seem like half steps to try and placate the old guard while trying to get back into the ever popular skirmish level. But combining it all into one game and taking a wishy-washy stance. Meaning it'll be the same "Mother, May I?" garbage for 40k versus a strong, guided stance of "this is how we play our game."
The "do what you want" stuff in games works great for cooperative settings, but player v. player games really need a hard and fast set of rules. Something GW seems to be nearly incapable of at this point.
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Post by: shade1313
I hope it's all just a big, elaborate troll job by someone out there who is bored...but I fear not.
Bad time for it, I don't have nearly enough cash on hand to pick up all the stuff I wanted to add, over time, to my armies, so I can play 8th with other disgruntled WFB players on into the future.
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Post by: Alpharius
Hard to believe a lot of this - while at the same time hard to not believe a lot of this.
I wonder how honest GW will be when they are talking about this new edition of WFB ].
Ultimately it won't matter, but I'm not sure how well a real strong Blowing Sunshine Campaign is going to go over!
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
I fear all players of the traditional fantasy armies are going to have to get used to what 40K Sisters players have suffered for many many years
They've got an army, it's sort of officially recognised, there are a few (really old) minis to buy, but nothing new shows up (except inaccurate rumours) for longer than most people stick in the game
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
Y'know I never played fantasy but I'll miss the empire and Bret plastics, great conversion fodder in there.
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Post by: warboss
Alpharius wrote:Hard to believe a lot of this - while at the same time hard to not believe a lot of this. I wonder how honest GW will be when they are talking about this new edition of WFB ]. Ultimately it won't matter, but I'm not sure how well a real strong Blowing Sunshine Campaign is going to go over!
I suspect they'll be as honest as they were in 7th edition 40k when telling us in WD that the changes were in response to player feedback so that we could play with our whole collections... because... you know... everyone was dying to have rules in "regular" 40k to play their DE/ GK/ SM/ Inq/Tau alliance with superheavies and fliers and fortifications at 1500pts instead of with the existing apoc rules.
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Post by: Haight
Hey Guys,
Not sure if this has been spotted yet, but BOLS posted a round up of a poster on warseer confirming some stuff. Very interesting read if this guy is on the level! Also "Harry" responds to him as well.
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/02/wfb-9th-rules-bases-faction-changes.html
EDIT: SHOOT.... sorry, didn't see this was basically posted a page back. My bad.
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Post by: Breotan
Always pays to check a few pages back to see if it hasn't already been covered.
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Post by: Haight
Breotan wrote:Always pays to check a few pages back to see if it hasn't already been covered.
What's amazing is that i did ... and somehow missed the three foot long, with red text, cut and paste from what i posted a link to.
I'm still trying to figure that out.
If what the random guy was saying was true though, i'm feeling a lot more comfortable with the changes coming to Fantasy.
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Post by: Alpharius
Really?
Because I got the opposite reaction from reading that!
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Post by: Joyboozer
Maybe Haight hates fantasy and its current armies with a passion, and can now say, ah, thank god they finally destroyed it all?
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Post by: Spacewolfoddballz
I been playing GW stuff since 1990. That said, WFB and the RPGs, and fluff is a big part of what makes the game enjoyable to me. This End of Days stuff was fine as alternate to me adding options. Now rumors of bubble worlds bumping into each other floating around idea throwing out fluff for their new direction will ruin it for me for starts. Taking the traditional fantasy out of it and putting it into lets compete with Warmachine/Hordes and make new figures to look like fighting Panda World of Warcraft warm and fuzzy in a grimdark fantasy setting (I am being dramatic here but this is my understanding on rumors thus far) is not going to keep me with GW.
Secondly, removing a lot of our units out of our armies to make things invalid... ok, that is crap! (yes, i know they are in business... but if i want to play Magic the Gathering i would buy cards). I dont want to play an arms race to collect a super rare figure to be uber in a table top wargame... one good thing about historical figures you can not worry about this crap.. a sherman tank is a sherman tank lol.
On positve, Mordheim/skirmish optional rules idea would be good and a good way to bring in new players and play small fun games for us Vets, but if done right not the way the whole thing sounds.
Last, I honestly will stay with 8th Edition unless the rumors are crap. My brother had a heart attack (well dramatic here lol) and all i said was you dont have to play the new rule set .
Its just a shame if GW goes on this path for WFB in my opinion, as to me its an end of an age and Games Workshops needs to now change their name to GAME Workshop as they will pretty much only have 40k in future...
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Post by: Breotan
He said about 90% would be the same. That should be at least a little reassuring. He also said (or suggested) that old armies would still be useable in some fashion.
But you must admit that Fantasy needs to lower the price of admission for new players and moving to a skirmish style game engine will do just that.
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Post by: Bottle
 Haight wrote: Breotan wrote:Always pays to check a few pages back to see if it hasn't already been covered.
What's amazing is that i did ... and somehow missed the three foot long, with red text, cut and paste from what i posted a link to.
I'm still trying to figure that out.
If what the random guy was saying was true though, i'm feeling a lot more comfortable with the changes coming to Fantasy.
Yeah I'm feeling a lot more comfortable too!
If the rules are staying 90% the same, that 10% can be including the skirmish rules and also making smaller blocks of infantry more viable.
If it's only characters and warmachines on circle bases, then people probably won't mind if I keep mine on square bases and this leaves my forces being able to play 8th and 9th as I see fit. (Or if I go to 9th, won't require much changing).
It also means my army books will likely still be usable (and if the Empire aren't getting updated from here on out, looks like I can use that book until it's officially invalidated... Warhammer editions usually last 5+ years right? So that's some mileage.)
Skirmish rules are gonna be awesome
And I have so many odd Empire bits, and new human faction can probably be kit bashed with my empire bitz to make them fit into my army.
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Post by: kodos
10% price increase for the rulebook and 90% of "The Rules" stayed the same....
But when I compare other some older edtions, 90% of the core rules had always been the same and only minor changes made up the different editions.
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Post by: Haight
Well they said the rules would be staying 90% the same, and round bases would just be for distinct unit types (i think warmachines - fine with that, though concerning about stuff like bells and censors and such that go in units, skirmishers - fine with this, and sometimes characters.... m'kay this needs clarification).
Basically the old factions will still be viable but not as immediately supported. THe game will now have a (vis-a-vis Rag'Na'Rok like) high scale and low scale game to it. Fine with this.
For a while the game will focus on supporting the low scale portion of the game. Understandable, it's brand new.
And it will be a while before the high scale sees much support. Also okay with this becasue...
.... the low scale minis will be useable at high scale in at least one "old" army. If i read that right. Some of the Eng(mang)lish was a bit hard to parse.
The bummer points: Brets and Beasts probably not getting a new book. That very much sucks. :(
So.... yeah. if 9th is 90% of 8th (which ostensibly, magic phase aside, is a good edition), and doesn't wall paper my tens of thousands of points of models. Yup, i'm feeling much more comfortable. Automatically Appended Next Post: Joyboozer wrote:Maybe Haight hates fantasy and its current armies with a passion, and can now say, ah, thank god they finally destroyed it all?
Maybe Joyboozer thinks that opinions are illegal and prefers hyperbolic henny-penny discourse rather than actually dissecting what the poster said, and applying it the post I made.
See, I can do back handed hyperbole too. If you read what the person posted and we (big if here, totally) assume its mostly on target.... people should be mostly very, very happy at some of the revelations in it. Is it 100% what we wanted to hear ? No, probably not. But it's miles from the worst case scenarios we were all fearing. The fact that there's some cross pollination between the large scale and low scale games as well is good.
(note: no applicable to Joyboozers quote, but just to note, i know that above this i mentioned "Rag'Na'Rok. I'm sure someone is going to just absolutely LEAP to say "and look what happened to confrontation !!!!". Fair. However Confrontation was dying before the RNR reboot is what i'll pre-emptively counterpoint with. 3.5 drove most of the players away, and their erratic release schedule and errata didn't help).
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Post by: Alpharius
I thnk from just what we've seen/heard/hinted at so far goes beyond just a 10% change...
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Post by: Haight
Breotan wrote:
He said about 90% would be the same. That should be at least a little reassuring. He also said (or suggested) that old armies would still be useable in some fashion.
But you must admit that Fantasy needs to lower the price of admission for new players and moving to a skirmish style game engine will do just that.
Exactly !
What' Fantasy's biggest problem ? Multiple barriers to entry, the first being cost. Other than Island of Blood, what does your average fantasy army cost including rule books ? 600+ bucks if bought at MSRP ? That's huge. That's probably the number one reason why Fantasy has been losing players.
If they introduce a skirmish game within the game, with models that are backwards compatible into the regiment scale game, then that's a decent shot at breaking that barrier for those interested in the game.
Note they are taking other barrier to entry reducing methods too ; 50% in lords and heroes in End Times is a directly corrolating model count reducing move at the same time allowing them to uptick and upcreep the points cost of heroes and lords.
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Post by: Pacific
Breotan wrote:
He said about 90% would be the same. That should be at least a little reassuring. He also said (or suggested) that old armies would still be useable in some fashion.
But you must admit that Fantasy needs to lower the price of admission for new players and moving to a skirmish style game engine will do just that.
- Lowering the price of entry, introducing skirmish elements. Absolutely brilliant move, but one that has been far, far too long in coming.
GW has moved the entry of miniature wargaming on the highstreet from the low and medium income earners solely into the hands of the wealthy middle and upper classes in previous years, it's a massive shame and is actually damaging the long term viability of the industry. In the UK at least, where we don't have the higher ratio of FLGS, and therefore the other games which have much lower entry price points, I can't say enough of how I am keen for this to happen.
Making existing armies defunct would also have been cruel beyond measure, so am also glad that this seems less likely now. I haven't played WHFB in some years, but know a lot of people who do and I feel for anyone who collects the game and wants to continue just turning up at clubs and stores and playing pick-up games.
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Post by: Haight
Alpharius wrote:I thnk from just what we've seen/heard/hinted at so far goes beyond just a 10% change...
Right. I'm sure the guy is approximating but I think his point is that "it's mostly staying the same". That's what's worth being happy about if (big IF) its true.
Maybe it's 87.6529 % similar ?
Let's all remember too, that allegedly according to a few different rumors in the past few weeks, they almost shut Fantasy down completely ! I forget where that was stated, but i remember reading it on a couple different sites regarding 9th rumors. I don't find it that thard to believe if the 8% of profits for the company is true. That's.... lean profit wise.
So if you like WHFB, you really want 9th to succeed, even if it maybe doesn't tick every single box for you. Because if it crashes and burns, there's no guarantee there's going to be a 10th. I know my group and I will still play if that happened, but i know a lot of people can't say the same.
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Post by: Grot 6
How did you come to this conclusion?
What I read you saying here is that they are throwing out a turd and then we're pretty much playing the game with a gun to our head. "BUY THIS STUFFS!!!, or we go broke and can't pay out our outrageous dividends...".
See, that's not how gaming works. Its a buyers market, On my end, GW forfeited their place when they evolved into the money grubbing scumbags that they have become. Bad as all that, GW does not even have the courtesy to discuss their new products, like, you know... we do in the real world.
Most companies LOVE to pimp their new shinnies, GW does it like a pickpocket.
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Post by: Theophony
So is this 90% like 9 out of 10 rules are staying the same, or is it like palladiums 90% where there are ideas that 90% of the game has been talked about but really nothing is set in stone?
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Post by: Haight
Grot 6 wrote:How did you come to this conclusion?
What I read you saying here ... (snip)
Then you should probably re-read what it is i wrote instead of jumping to conclusions. Because almost the entirety of the rest of your post I'm not sure how you arrive at either through logic or supposition.
It's like you almost didn't even read the discourse between myself and the others, and just took a moment to break out the old GW-Hate soapbox. Which is fine, but why you chose this particular sub-tangent of conversation for this, and how you're attributing it to what i wrote I can't figure out.
....is that they are throwing out a turd and then we're pretty much playing the game with a gun to our head. "BUY THIS STUFFS!!!, or we go broke and can't pay out our outrageous dividends...".
See, that's not how gaming works. Its a buyers market, On my end, GW forfeited their place when they evolved into the money grubbing scumbags that they have become. Bad as all that, GW does not even have the courtesy to discuss their new products, like, you know... we do in the real world.
Most companies LOVE to pimp their new shinnies, GW does it like a pickpocket.
Not sure how you got that from what i posted. I posted in response to the guy that said i must hate WHFB to have my opinion that i was "more comfortable now than before" after reading that, if we use the assumption that what the guy posted was true. Which i acknowledged was a big if. Also, facts or explanation of supposition would be wonderful. It's a buyers market, what do you mean by this, or did it just sound weighty when you typed it ? GW being (your opinion here, and why you stopped buying their product) is all well and good but its a personal microcosm, and anecdotal at best. They still have customers, though by earnings reports, maybe less than they used to. I will agree with your sorta-kinda stated position that their communication with their customers is horrendous at best.
And this is how businesses work, contrary to what you posit (which, i'd love to hear your economic theory of product development and how it differs, for what it's worth!) if you have a product that is not profitable it is discontinued, or perhaps maybe revamped before being discontinued.
Despite all your high sounding analogies about pickpocket and turds and whatnot, that simple economic model still holds. A business produces a product, it is received in the market (well or poorly). If that product is deemed to be worth continuing to produce and support, then that product ages, and is either updated, replaced, or revamped, or, discontinued (due to lack of profitability or obsolescence).
With Fantasy taking nigh on a decade to fully update and not be complete (brets, beasts), and producing 8% of the portfolio of profits by all accounts, it's no wonder they are trying something new, moving in a new direction.
We've all heard a lot of disconcerting things about 9th ed, but from what we've heard, if we assume its true based on that one post from warseer, that left me feeling more comfortable than I had been (which, fair being fair, was the assumption that it was being downshifted pretty much to just a skirmish game. What we heard in snippets previous to this were a lot more obfuscated, and a lot more dire (rumors being such as they are).
I mean it's cool if people disagree and they're even more leery of impending 9th than they were, that's fine. But i mean... i know its the internet, but can we try to observe some of the normal rules of discourse and point and counter point ?
All i frickin' said was that after reading what that guy i wrote i was more comfortable than i was with my evolving idea of 9th. I then spent the next 4-5 posts defending against a bunch of baseless nonsense that I didn't actually say or infer.
Automatically Appended Next Post:  Theophony wrote:So is this 90% like 9 out of 10 rules are staying the same, or is it like palladiums 90% where there are ideas that 90% of the game has been talked about but really nothing is set in stone?
Haha, I actually did laugh out loud. I'm with you on this. I hope it's not a "Palladium 90%". Which is more like "the name, and just about nothing else".
I mean who knows. It's a guy posting on the internet. He could be completely wrong. It's all worthy of a mine of NaCL. We won't know until the book drops. I guess i'm okay with the idea that the game is going to have a sliding scale of scope and size, and rules to accomodate that. That's a tough nut to take on (like i mentioned before it was a grand idea with Rag'Na'Rok, which ultimately didn't pan out.... and Warmachine dipped their toe into some unofficially larger scope rules too, if memory serves, though i don't think that they did much with it other than a one off), but if there's rules in place that allows me to continue playing the game i know, and maybe take up a game i may (or may not) like within the game (skirmish scale), then i'd be okay with that in comparison to what other rumors we were hearing (i.e. no more regiment level game, re base your minis, etc etc).
Time will tell.
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Post by: Vermis
Alpharius wrote:I thnk from just what we've seen/heard/hinted at so far goes beyond just a 10% change...
I think so too. From the original quote:
9th edition will be 90% the same as 8th edition YES, ABOUT RULES
If the rules are 90% the same, that doesn't necessarily mean that armies aren't getting dumped and abandoned. ( yet again folk are conflating 'rules' with 'background' and 'minis') And 'old armies are still playable', while true regardless of compatibility with 9th, doesn't fill me with confidence either. Specialist Games. 'Nuff said.
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Post by: Haight
Vermis wrote: Alpharius wrote:I thnk from just what we've seen/heard/hinted at so far goes beyond just a 10% change...
I think so too. From the original quote:
9th edition will be 90% the same as 8th edition YES, ABOUT RULES
If the rules are 90% the same, that doesn't necessarily mean that armies aren't getting dumped and abandoned. ( yet again folk are conflating 'rules' with 'background' and 'minis') And 'old armies are still playable', while true regardless of compatibility with 9th, doesn't fill me with confidence either. Specialist Games. 'Nuff said.
Fair point. I think a lot of the background in 9th is going to focus on Bubble-Hammer zones. I don't love that per-se, but i can at least understand it. If they do this sliding scale thing, they're going to have to focus a lot of love on the skirmish side of things in 9th so they can get their lesser barrier to entry off the ground.
I'm hoping that they embrace both though and not just slam the door on Regimental WHFB in favor 100% for bubble-hammer.
At least if the rules stay about 90% of what they are, its at least a pyrric victory. We'll have a good long while that the game will persist as we know it and enjoy it while figuring out if we like the skirmish side of it that's being introduced.
Edit: a couple bits of clarity.
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Post by: Vermis
Haight wrote:
So if you like WHFB, you really want 9th to succeed, even if it maybe doesn't tick every single box for you. Because if it crashes and burns, there's no guarantee there's going to be a 10th.
I have one response to that.
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