Continuing Rumors of WHFB 9th (Post-End Times) in Early Summer 2015

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**Kirasu**

Im still surprised people are still thinking Lizardmen (Or any army for that matter) are going to be squatted. It's an extremely unlikely possibility.

Squats were a 2nd edition idea from 15 years ago. They had basically no model support, the rules were boring and uninspired and their fluff was terrible.. It's not a surprise they were dropped. Just because something happens once to an army that like 3 people played doesn't mean it'll happen again.

**ImAGeek**

Kirasu wrote:
Im still surprised people are still thinking Lizardmen (Or any army for that matter) are going to be squatted. It's an extremely unlikely possibility.

Squats were a 2nd edition idea from 15 years ago. They had basically no model support, the rules were boring and uninspired and their fluff was terrible.. It's not a surprise they were dropped. Just because something happens once to an army that like 3 people played doesn't mean it'll happen again.

I agree with most of it, but Squats actually had quite a lot of models available.

**zedmeister**

Kirasu wrote:

Squats were a 2nd edition idea from 15 years ago. They had basically no model support, the rules were boring and uninspired and their fluff was terrible.. It's not a surprise they were dropped. Just because something happens once to an army that like 3 people played doesn't mean it'll happen again.

Not really. I'll leave this response from Jervis that he posted on the old Epic:A forums on why the Squats were dropped and it isn't because they weren't selling well or didn't have the players:

"I know I shouldn't get drawn on this... but... can't... resist
Seriously, a couple of points just so you can have an informed debate based on the real reasons that Squats are no longer available. Be warned, it is going to be hard reading for people that like the Squat background.

First of all, Squats were *not* dropped because they were not selling well. There were then, and are now, plenty of other figure ranges that sell in the sort of % quantities that the Squats pulled down, especially when you look across all of the ranges produced by GW rather than just those for 40K.

No, the reason that the Squats were dropped was because the creatives in the Studio (people like me, Rick, Andy C, Gav etc) felt that we had failed to do the Dwarf 'archetype' justice in its 40K incarnation. From the name of the race (Squats - what *were* we thinking?!?!) through to the short bikers motif, we had managed to turn what was a proud and noble race in Warhammer and the other literary forms where the archetype exists, into a joke race in 40K. We only fully realised what we had done when we were working on the 2nd edition of 40K. Try as we might, we just couldn't work up much enthusiasm for the Squats. The mistake we made then (deeply regretted since) was to leave them in the background and the 'get you by' army list book that appeared. With hindsight, we should have dropped the Squats back then, and saved ourselves a lot of grief later on.

Anyway, the Squats made it into 2nd edition, and since we were doing army books for each of the races, we started to try and figure out what to do with them. Unfortunately we just couldn't figure out a way to update them and get them to work that we felt was good enough. The 'art' of working on an army as a designer is to find the thing that you think is cool and exciting about an army, and work it up into a strong theme. This 'muse' didn't strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background, we kept doing other army books instead, with stuff we did feel inspired by.
Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendency to focus on the big 'hand-made' war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we *should* have done with the Squats in 40K.

In the end (and it took years to really get to the roots of the problem) this led to a realisation that we were going to have to drop the Squats in their 'Squat' form from the 40K background. There was little point having a major race that we weren't willing to make an army book for, and their inclusion in the background meant that people kept asking us when we'd do a Squat Codex. Instead we decided that we'd write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet. This would give us the option in the future to return to making a race based on the Squat archetype for 40K. This race was given the name of Demiurg, and a certain amount of preliminary work was done to get a 'feel' for what the race would be like. At present the only hint of the Demiurg in 40K is the Demiurg spaceship for BFG. However, we do have this race 'in our back pocket' as a possible new race for 40K, or an interesting character model in Inquisitor, or whatever. So far the Demiurg have lost out to other projects, and it may be that their time never actually comes, as they will have to win through on their merits, not simply because we once made some Squat models in the past. At present, I have to say that it is more likely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain prejudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early days, so it may be that the Squats/Demiurg end up remaining a footnote in the history of the 40K galaxy. Only time will tell...

I'll finish off by saying that whatever we decide to do 'officially', there is nothing stopping players with Squat armies from using them, either in Epic or 40k for that matter. There is no GW 'rule' against using old Citadel Miniatures, as long as you use them with existing army lists and in a way that won't cause confusion for other players. I recommend taking a positive stand by saying "Have you seen these cool old models? They're called the Squats and GW used to make them back in the late eighties/early nineties. I love 'em, so I count them as Imperial Guard and use them with the current rules..." Put like this I can't imagine that anyone would stop you from using your army.

Best regards,
Jervis Johnson
Head Fanatic

...

**Kirasu**

The other part of my comment stated that their rules were uninspired and their fluff was terrible. That's what Jervis also spoke about. I recommend reading the whole thing.

In either case, very different from lizard men. Sorry to offend squat supporters (at least I didn't mention battle sisters).

**zedmeister**

Kirasu wrote:
The other part of my comment stated that their rules were uninspired and their fluff was terrible. That's what Jervis also spoke about. I recommend reading the whole thing.

In either case, very different from lizard men. Sorry to offend squat supporters (at least I didn't mention battle sisters).

The 40k background was a bit naff but the stuff they wrote for Epic was pretty sweet. Anyway, my point was to show that a well selling line isn't enough to save it from extinction. So, Lizardmen going away? Plausible, but unlikely. Though, they did just end Dark Elves. Well, sort of, but the Elven aesthetic will definitely be different.

**Herzlos**

Didn't the CHS thing show that Aztec-Lizards weren't that defendable? It could be that they've decided it's not unique enough and they've got no ideas what to do to change it.

**NunoTaborda**

Well, I talked this weekend with a friend of mine that have a store.

I know for sure now, after seeing the replies of GW, that no army is going to disappear. Unless GW likes to lie to store owners xD

There are going to happen big changes, but not army going to disappear.

If I where you, I would not go away from this

**RoninXiC**

Since they don't tell store owners pretty much anything.. lying might be the wrong word.

**Herzlos**

They'll lie to store owners about new releases/stuff getting discontinued right up until it happens.

**Accolade**

Yeah, they lie/omit detail to them all the time!

**Fayric**

NunoTaborda wrote:
Well, I talked this weekend with a friend of mine that have a store.

I know for sure now, after seeing the replies of GW, that no army is going to disappear. Unless GW likes to lie to store owners xD

There are going to happen big changes, but not army going to disappear.

If I where you, I would not go away from this

I admit Im not up to date on the rumous, but the talk about skirmish and the known facts about what happens in end times indicate the setting will be far more focused on small warbands.
The elves and lizzies have no home, the empire lies in ruin, most big heroes dead, etc. I dont see any point making the game smaller if they still intend to keep all of their unselling boxes.
Sure they can say they wont remove any race/army, but they might still remove the major part of their model range.
They could have a single skink mercenary and claim Lizardmen are still actively in the game.

**ImAGeek**

Yeah as said I wouldnt trust what GW store employees say about rumours as far as I could throw them. Nothing to do with them personally but GW don't actually tell them anything. They know as much as us really.

**Herzlos**

They know less than us; I've tipped my local off to a few changes to let them stock up.

**angelofvengeance**

Don't suppose there's been any further development with this?

**ImAGeek**

angelofvengeance wrote:
Don't suppose there's been any further development with this?

If there was, I'm sure here would be the first place you'd see it

**Sidstyler**

This 'muse' didn't strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background

lol, I can't imagine...not GW, no...

At present, I have to say that it is more likely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain prejudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early day

*Looks at current Necron range and sees "Tomb Kings in Spaaace!" all over the fething place*

Yeah...

**Kid_Kyoto**

angelofvengeance wrote:
Don't suppose there's been any further development with this?

I heard a confirmed rumor there are changes coming.

**Wehrkind**

A little late to the convo, but I wanted to respond to Navarro.

I think you are exactly right, except for this " And before you come and say you could always ignore the 9th and continue on 8th... That is not the point! "

In a way it is the point, but not the way the people making it think it is. It basically means "You can quit supporting the company and playing their current game, and instead play a game they do not sell." That is exactly what people will do, play a different game than GW wants to sell them, and that should be the problem from GW's perspective. GW does not sell "Warhammer: Classic" or reprints of older books. If you are playing old editions you might as well be playing Kings of War or historicals or something.
So as a response to "8th edition was the best game ever!" yea, it sort of works, but only in the "just stop buying stuff" sense. In response to "This is going to really hurt GW" it doesn't work at all.

**JohnHwangDD**

Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendency to focus on the big 'hand-made' war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we *should* have done with the Squats in 40K.

With 40k now focused on updating Epic models in 28mm, perhaps FW and GW can bring Squats back?

**ProtoClone**

AlexHolker wrote:
ProtoClone wrote:
OK, so I just heard about this End Time. I am really interested in the story of it more than the game, where can I get a summary of what is/has happened?

I have seen 1d4chan had a summary...but I kind of was hoping for something a little more serious in it's telling.

This Warseer Thread might help. From Giant Stegadon's summary of the first three books:

Giant Stegadon wrote:NAGASH: Archaon is in the north, Chaos people are pumped they'll win. Mazdamundi declares the Great Plan of the Old Ones has failed & Lizardmen must exodus (no more info). Orcs may be on a big Waaagh. Brettonia is in civil war with the Vampire part of Brettonia, the Bret king (Louen) is probably dead, and it turns out The Green Knight is revealed to be Gilles le Breton. Tilea & Estalia are completely overrun by Skaven. Kislev is leveled by Chaos.

Because of Chaos rising earlier than expected, Nagash needs to be brought back now. Manfred allies with Arkan & they get crap for Nagash. Nagash is resurrected with 8 mortals of divine blood. Teclis doesn't tell anyone the Elven princess isn't the daughter of the Phoenix King Finubar (who might be dead) but really she's Tyrion's secret kid with the High Elf Queen so that screws up Nagash's thing (Curse of Aenarion). Balthasar Gelt makes an awesome magic wall to fend off the initial Chaos hordes, but in a series of wacky misunderstandings ends up a Necromancer & flies away with the Vlad (he's back too- United Undead will likely be anyone's allies in 9th). The Beast magic guy takes over as head of magic. Karl Franz is seriously wounded in a big battle at the magic wall. Nagash goes down to crush the resistant Tomb Kings. Probably consumes the Dwarven ancestor god Valaya, definitely consumes the Khermian Death god. Nagash is now the container for Death magic. At the end, Chaos is probably going to get Settra on their team (so Undead will be anyone's allies in 9th).

GLOTTKIN: Nurgle's army rolls out into the Empire first. Marienburg is destroyed-turns out there was a Vampire there all along too but he sucks at fighting. The Glottkin (3 brothers, one is the monster) lead a 3 prong army to tear up the Empire. Talabheim is sacked. Empire & Brettonia fight the Chaos Legion at Aldorf (yeah the capital) & its gets trashed. The Bret king we thought was dead, isn't & bleeds light, but dies for real this time. Festus dies. Kurt Helborg gets stabbed in the eye & dies. Karl Franz comes back but dies. THEN a comet thing comes down & he's back & super awesome & (almost) kills Glottkin but they cast a spell & escape. Aldorf (& most of the Empire) was afflicted by weird Nurgle thorns growing everywhere is suddenly cleansed and everything is okay. Except tons of people are dead & everything is wrecked. Vampires continue to fight with humans (please buy some skeletons!).

KHAINE: This focuses only on the Elves. Valkia leads a Khorne army into Naggaroth (she dies) & they destroy 3 of the big tower cities. Malekith decides to just abandon the whole thing & invade Ulthuan (why not?)- he's also pissy with his mom. Ulthuan defends against a big demon invasion then the Druchii show up. Teclis sides with Malekith (he has a big plan-also Finubar is for real dead) & a gigantic civil war erupts (Imrik goes with Malekith). Tyrion leads the other half & pulls the Sword of Khaine (Widowmaker)- Tyrion is also super sad about his kid dying. The Wood Elves show up. Tyrion becomes as mean as Malekith but he's still supposed to be the bad guy since he's under Khaine influence (some Dark Elves are now with him too).

For some reason, Malekith was always supposed to be the Phoenix King & walks through the flames so he's the real king now (deal with it). All the Elves end up at the Magic Vortex & fight. Oh that Vortex? The thing that's held Chaos at bay this whole time? Teclis' plan is to undo it & infuse mortals with the winds of magic to fight Chaos-this is somehow a legitimate plan. The Shadow King guy kills Tyrion with an arrow & also shoots Malekith for kicks but he lives. Morathi, who was influencing Tyrion, gets taken by Slaanesh. Ulthuan sinks since the Vortex is gone- with Teclis sitting next to Tyrion/Khaine going with it (Teclis' staff now has/had Light Magic btw). Everyone uses the World Roots to escape to Athel Loren- since that's now the only Elf place left GW hasn't wiped off the map. King Malekith marries the Wood Elf queen girl (he's the new Shadow container, she's the Life one). All 100 Elves that survived this now get to live in the forest. The Beast Men make an appearance for them to murder. Its implied Karl Franz got Heavens Magic when he was resurrected in Glottkin & turns out Lileath used all her power to cure the Empire so she's not a god anymore (I don't understand how gods work here now). A bunch of other crap happens with Elven gods dying & new ones being appointed (Araloth...)- a poorly thought out cyclical metaphor. This is the worst book.

Thanks!

This is all kind of crazy really. Kind of like watching a movie that's trying to cram many stories into a short amount of time.

I am interested to see what happens with armies like Lizardmen.

**angelofvengeance**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendency to focus on the big 'hand-made' war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we *should* have done with the Squats in 40K.

With 40k now focused on updating Epic models in 28mm, perhaps FW and GW can bring Squats back?

You mean Demiurg?

**Kanluwen**

Bear in mind that all the books are happening concurrently, not subsequently.

There is a pretty big timeframe--something like a year or two, as of now.

**JohnHwangDD**

No, "Squats".

I have no idea what "Demiurg" are, but they sound awful and bland. Like a cheap metal cover band.

**Malika2**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
No, "Squats".

I have no idea what "Demiurg" are, but they sound awful and bland. Like a cheap metal cover band.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Demiurg

They also have some models for Battlefleet Gothic:

**Crimson Devil**

You mean "Had". They got dropped along with all specialist games.

**Vermis**

Yeah. :( Pity. I thought they had the potential to inject just a little more 'hard' sci-fi into 40K, as asteroid miners or what-have-you.

**Mymearan**

Sidstyler wrote:
This 'muse' didn't strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background

lol, I can't imagine...not GW, no...

At present, I have to say that it is more likely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain prejudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early day

*Looks at current Necron range and sees "Tomb Kings in Spaaace!" all over the fething place*

Yeah...

Except when Necrons were released, there were no "Tomb Kings".

**Accolade**

Mymearan wrote:
Sidstyler wrote:
This 'muse' didn't strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background

lol, I can't imagine...not GW, no...

At present, I have to say that it is more likely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain prejudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early day

*Looks at current Necron range and sees "Tomb Kings in Spaaace!" all over the fething place*

Yeah...

Except when Necrons were released, there were no "Tomb Kings".

I think he's talking more about the transition for the Necrons from their original list and codex as a sort of Cthulu/Old Ones horror concept of soulless machines to the newer codex lore that is much more in the realm of Tomb Kings (zombie robots with their keepers).

Plus the Tomb Kings have always existed in WHFB, just not as their own army list until about 2000 (although now they're being consolidated back, so...).

**Malika2**

Vermis wrote:
Yeah. :( Pity. I thought they had the potential to inject just a little more 'hard' sci-fi into 40K, as asteroid miners or what-have-you.

Don't get me started on that one...

**Pacific**

Vermis wrote:
Yeah. :( Pity. I thought they had the potential to inject just a little more 'hard' sci-fi into 40K, as asteroid miners or what-have-you.

It's been done.. if you want this kind of thing, just check out Mantic's Forge Fathers range, which I think are pretty much what GW would have done if they had launched a millenium-friendly new version of Squats. Except the GW range would probably have a bunch of them riding a giant mole or something.

I had Squat armies for both 40k and Epic. The former was sold years ago, the latter quite recently. Stopped bothering waiting for GW to revisit the concept some years ago and haven't looked back, by and large the Mantic range are excellent and there are no doubt more of them on the way.