In a way. The issue comes from forming neat & ordered ranks. Fantasy as we know it has clearly defined from, rear & flanks. Getting circular bases to rank up into perfect rectangles is difficult.
Shas'O Dorian wrote: In a way. The issue comes from forming neat & ordered ranks. Fantasy as we know it has clearly defined from, rear & flanks. Getting circular bases to rank up into perfect rectangles is difficult.
So...they'd be selling trays then like with LOTR? lol
All of this (end times, starting fluff from scratch) might explain why FFG abruptly stopped developing content for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3rd edition a year or so ago ( obviously this has been in development at GW for quite a while). They never did release an Elf supplement for the RPG before it died out.
Shas'O Dorian wrote: In a way. The issue comes from forming neat & ordered ranks. Fantasy as we know it has clearly defined from, rear & flanks. Getting circular bases to rank up into perfect rectangles is difficult.
So...they'd be selling trays then like with LOTR? lol
Even with those trays tho the units would end up being so big because of the spaces between models.
Big horde units would end up having an extremely large footprint on the tabletop.
It will have the option to play both tho (it says that somewhere in the rumours am I right?) I just think its cool to have less troops and have them spaced out on lotr style trays. You can see the pain jobs better etc. But at the same time seeing and playing a fully painted fully ranked up army is very nice.
I don't mind changes but this one is pretty huge if this is in fact true.
Maybe they are trying to make something in between fantasy and mordhiem where its skirmish like but ranked up more? I'm not sure. Too early to tell. I find it odd that all these rumours are coming out and its not even close to may yet. Especially since book 5 of end times Archeon hasn't been heard of yet much
Set in the warhammer universe, smaller scale but be a separate game from warhammer?
work as a gate way drug... I mean game.
I'd be more OK with this, though I don't see why you can't just use square bases. I think GW is trying to shake things up, ET shook things up and has been great for them but at some point you push a bit too far and all that success is lost from a huge backlash. We've seen some backlash from khaine magic but round bases would push it over the edge.
Set in the warhammer universe, smaller scale but be a separate game from warhammer?
work as a gate way drug... I mean game.
I'd be more OK with this, though I don't see why you can't just use square bases. I think GW is trying to shake things up, ET shook things up and has been great for them but at some point you push a bit too far and all that success is lost from a huge backlash. We've seen some backlash from khaine magic but round bases would push it over the edge.
Games workshop shaking things up again
Forcing you to switch all you 500 square bases for round bases.
In other news games workshop is releases new round bases limited edition. Pack of 20 for a low low price of $15.99.
Ya frig that.
I could see them doing a separate game tho, as a tie in. Maybe in the same rulebook?
Set in the warhammer universe, smaller scale but be a separate game from warhammer?
work as a gate way drug... I mean game.
I'd be more OK with this, though I don't see why you can't just use square bases. I think GW is trying to shake things up, ET shook things up and has been great for them but at some point you push a bit too far and all that success is lost from a huge backlash. We've seen some backlash from khaine magic but round bases would push it over the edge.
could be a number of reasons why they would use round over square, popular reason would be you would have to rebase, buy new or can't easily proxy.
A lot of skirmish games use round bases, they seem to be a bit more fluid when it comes to rules with base contact.
Shas'O Dorian wrote: In a way. The issue comes from forming neat & ordered ranks. Fantasy as we know it has clearly defined from, rear & flanks. Getting circular bases to rank up into perfect rectangles is difficult.
With Malfred's movement trays it'd be easier to rank round-based models up, since you have some leeway to rotate them a degree or so and prevent weapons and shields and things poking awkwardly into the mini's neighbour. Front, rear and flanks are more about the unit footprint as a whole. (Just like *gasp* all those multibased battle games that don't fiddle about with casualty removal.)
Also, movement trays for round-based minis aren't unprecedented outside of the War of the Ring game. You don't even need regularly spaced slots for them.
I'm not too familiar with all the different base sizes, but wouldn't you just be able to fit round based fantasy models on movement
trays just as easily as square based ones?
While the bases are the same width, they do not have the same surface area or dimensional frontage to properly work within the established WHFB method of ranking up and moving. Lots of measurements are done from the corner of a models base, round bases make the corner(and facing) impossible to determine.
I don't know if this has been mentioned on this thread already (haven't kept up with all 20+ pages), but do you guys remember the spanish rumors thread posted on Warseer early last fall?
They were the first to mention a release of Nagash / End Times campaign (May 29th), but did so in a context saying that this End Times campaign would be the lead to a closure of "Warhammer" (presumably WFB, not 40K), followed by a subsequent new skirmish game (presumably fantasy-ish-themed) in 2015
and
Originally Posted by cazzz669
So, just got off the horn with a contact at GW who apparently has just come out of a briefing regarding the future of WHF in May 2015 after the End of Times WHF will become a skirmish game centered around surviving warbands after the "armegeddon" of the fantasy world as a result of the End of Times.
Chaos decimate the Empire
Nagash and co decimate Brettonia
Ulthuan sinks
there will be less army books than currently ( no idea if this means imalgimation armies )
appreciate I do not post very often so will doubtless recieve a whole load of flame for this post BUT given i literally just got told it, thought some people here would appreciate me sharing..
Personally I hope to god this is all incorrect
That second quote in particular mentions Ulthuan sinking, which happened in the Khaine book. Bear in mind these rumors were posted before the Khaine book was released. The May release date also roughly lines up with Darnok's rumored release date of April (i.e. late spring not summer). All of this, in combination, kind of make these rumors a bit more believable to me... and have made me a lot more concerned.
Thoughts?
Set in the warhammer universe, smaller scale but be a separate game from warhammer?
Yes, this is effectively a new game, a matched successor, a la Evangelion Rebuild, if you will.
Same universe, same world, same continuity, but streamlined and grimmer from what came before.
I believe Piston meant as in Warhammer would still exist as a large scale regiment based game but the new game would be a side thing, not a replacement (that said I have no idea what Evangelion Rebuild is so maybe that's what you meant ).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
chochky wrote: I don't know if this has been mentioned on this thread already (haven't kept up with all 20+ pages), but do you guys remember the spanish rumors thread posted on Warseer early last fall?
They were the first to mention a release of Nagash / End Times campaign (May 29th), but did so in a context saying that this End Times campaign would be the lead to a closure of "Warhammer" (presumably WFB, not 40K), followed by a subsequent new skirmish game (presumably fantasy-ish-themed) in 2015
and
Originally Posted by cazzz669
So, just got off the horn with a contact at GW who apparently has just come out of a briefing regarding the future of WHF in May 2015 after the End of Times WHF will become a skirmish game centered around surviving warbands after the "armegeddon" of the fantasy world as a result of the End of Times.
Chaos decimate the Empire
Nagash and co decimate Brettonia
Ulthuan sinks
there will be less army books than currently ( no idea if this means imalgimation armies )
appreciate I do not post very often so will doubtless recieve a whole load of flame for this post BUT given i literally just got told it, thought some people here would appreciate me sharing..
Personally I hope to god this is all incorrect
That second quote in particular mentions Ulthuan sinking, which happened in the Khaine book. Bear in mind these rumors were posted before the Khaine book was released. The May release date also roughly lines up with Darnok's rumored release date of April (i.e. late spring not summer). All of this, in combination, kind of make these rumors a bit more believable to me... and have made me a lot more concerned.
Thoughts?
That sounds fething terrible. GW took away specialist games now they're going to feth over one of their main games?
To GW: People were asking for change, but not like this, NOT LIKE THIS!!
Set in the warhammer universe, smaller scale but be a separate game from warhammer?
Yes, this is effectively a new game, a matched successor, a la Evangelion Rebuild, if you will.
Same universe, same world, same continuity, but streamlined and grimmer from what came before.
I believe Piston meant as in Warhammer would still exist as a large scale regiment based game but the new game would be a side thing, not a replacement (that said I have no idea what Evangelion Rebuild is so maybe that's what you meant ).
That sounds fething terrible. GW took away specialist games now they're going to feth over one of their main games?
People can still play large games with lots of wound counters, but the standard size will be smaller, perhaps 1000 pts. It will accomodate more wounds, but it won't require them. If I had to guess, 9E will remove rank bonuses and horde, along with all the associated complexity. There won't be a feeling that to "need" huge units.
I would not be surprised to learn that Fantasy is driving a P/L line equivalent to a pre-cancellation Specialist Game.
I'm gonna input my opinion, and it's in no way a positive one. I've only been playing 40k for a year, and my core rulebook was only valid for 6 months before I had to buy a new one. This was the first thing that got me annoyed, but I understood that it could have happened at any time before or after I started. Now I've started playing fantasy, I've collected a fair amount of models from christmas and my birthday, but if they are all invalidated by the end of the year, I'm selling them. All of them. The way they're supposedly handling this is an absolute farce, and would be more than enough to drive me away. It might be an attempt to shake up the game so it's more easily accessible to more people, but it is in no way the right way to be going about it. The first thing I looked at once I heard about the warhammer world was the fluff, and I absolutely love it to bits. If they change it to this 'bubble' gak, I'm out, and my Skaven are going to be left in the dark.
Let this be a lesson to us all: Be careful what you wish for. We wanted WHFB to go back to its skirmish roots and be less expensive. Well, we got it...
If its all about chaos , then small war bands of communities stand no chance, the gods would just send everything against each bubble. Ill be out of this skirmish as it wont feel like fantasy for me anymore.
Well, who knows, it may be like lotr sized forces which I enjoyed a lot with friends when I was younger and the story may be good.
I will hold off my judgement but something definitely will die for me in fantasy.
Flashman wrote: Hmm... Warhammer post apocalyptic skirmish game you say? Might be up for that...
All roads seem to be pointing to that.
Let's look at the facts:
1. Round bases in the latest WD would support GW's streamlining and cost-cutting policy as round bases would be standard for all its products
2. Rules for Dungeon fighting in the Skaven end times book. If that's not a heavy hint being dropped, I don't know what is.
3. Fantasy dying a slow death and GW's well known financial woes suggests change is imminent.
I predict that GW are moving towards a skirmish/RPG game of around 35-40 models, much in the vein of the herohammer/ monster hammer days. 6 well supported factions, with regular updates, limited edition books, and rules being exclusive to WD, and various dataslates, is GW taking a leaf out of Magic's book. We're witnessing a steady drip drip drip. Probably to keep people buying, and also to pull the rug from under 3rd party manufacturers.
GW love their big monster kits, people love buying them, so they'll stay. As it stands, having to collect 100+ models for a decent game is off putting for many people, hence the slow decline of fantasy. GW are applying the 40k template to fantasy.
In my view, the GW target audience will be 12-20 years olds, who will throw down £150 for all the models/paints/books they need, and the small model count will get them in the game quicker before they lose interest. Look at GW's paint guides in recent years. Shade, wash, highlight. Quick and easy to do.
I think GW will write off the veterans. They tend to have all the models they need anyway, are moving to other companies in droves, and tend not to buy a lot of GW stuff anyway. GW's model is new blood, and a high turnover at that.
Of course, I could be wrong, I usually am but for me, this is the direction GW are heading in.
Yeah...well...skirmish has another problem, though: it doesn't work with some armies. Goblins and Skaven, for example, don't work in a skirmish game. Huge numbers of models is what makes those armies.
unmercifulconker wrote: A separate game would indeed be awesome but please dont have it replace what we know and love today.
Two fantasy games running side by side is a no go, simply because as it stands, fantasy is dying on its feet. It would be money down the drain for GW.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sigvatr wrote: Yeah...well...skirmish has another problem, though: it doesn't work with some armies. Goblins and Skaven, for example, don't work in a skirmish game. Huge numbers of models is what makes those armies.
Easily fixed with giving goblins and skaven a recycling rule that allows them to put dead models back on the table. I'm pretty sure Tyranids had this years ago.
1. Round bases in the latest WD would support GW's streamlining and cost-cutting policy as round bases would be standard for all its products
2. Rules for Dungeon fighting in the Skaven end times book. If that's not a heavy hint being dropped, I don't know what is.
3. Fantasy dying a slow death and GW's well known financial woes suggests change is imminent.
I predict that GW are moving towards a skirmish/RPG game of around 35-40 models, much in the vein of the herohammer/ monster hammer days. 6 well supported factions, with regular updates, limited edition books, and rules being exclusive to WD, and various dataslates, is GW taking a leaf out of Magic's book. We're witnessing a steady drip drip drip. Probably to keep people buying, and also to pull the rug from under 3rd party manufacturers.
GW love their big monster kits, people love buying them, so they'll stay. As it stands, having to collect 100+ models for a decent game is off putting for many people, hence the slow decline of fantasy. GW are applying the 40k template to fantasy.
In my view, the GW target audience will be 12-20 years olds, who will throw down £150 for all the models/paints/books they need, and the small model count will get them in the game quicker before they lose interest. Look at GW's paint guides in recent years. Shade, wash, highlight. Quick and easy to do.
I think GW will write off the veterans. They tend to have all the models they need anyway, are moving to other companies in droves, and tend not to buy a lot of GW stuff anyway. GW's model is new blood, and a high turnover at that.
Of course, I could be wrong, I usually am but for me, this is the direction GW are heading in.
Don't be putting forth your argument all logical and persuasive like. You're scaring me, stop it, I don't like it.
In all seriousness though, I'm kind of tentatively excited. Having been out of the loop for ages on WHF, I feel like my non-investment somewhat shields me (in a non-bubble fashion) from the coming storm
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or like Chenkov's 'Send in the next wave' special rule in the Guard's last codex
Really confused about the bases. If infantry goes into circular bases and then movement trays are created why not just keep the square bases as they are in the first place? I do not see why skirmish cannot be played with square bases. A smart move would be that the rules can accommodate both types and not just one, I mean people can still play old editions with square bases but if they go all circular then your minis are not retro compatible anymore.
Also Skaven releases are all over the place in therms of basing, some are circular and others are squared, that looks awful on the same army.
As for army deals like the new all in one box Warmachine I think the online deals for ET are close to that except for the rules ( they are bloody expensive though) But I think GW could work out something cool for each faction with a small rulebook and small armybook at a good price.
I have also been inclined to start some Killteams for 40k but the price of the rulebook and dexes alone invalidates any saving for a small model army! You would spend more on the books than on the models for your team and thats frustrating, specially because you can only use a fraction of the rulebooks and dex... they should create some smaller versions just for killteam play.
Going back to fantasy, a skirmish level game to go along with WFB would be much appreciated but again same problem with killteams regarding book prices... What i mean is small skirmish games are impulse buys, you buy x faction now and then look for Y and Z later on, but if the entry price of getting into the Y & Z is increased by dexes I cannot see people collecting much more than X. Also if the books are going to be combined expect the price to be scary...
Easily fixed with giving goblins and skaven a recycling rule that allows them to put dead models back on the table. I'm pretty sure Tyranids had this years ago.
Yeah, that's the problem. It still would not allow the army to represented on the board. Constantly respawning units doesn't spell out "horde".
1. Round bases in the latest WD would support GW's streamlining and cost-cutting policy as round bases would be standard for all its products
2. Rules for Dungeon fighting in the Skaven end times book. If that's not a heavy hint being dropped, I don't know what is.
3. Fantasy dying a slow death and GW's well known financial woes suggests change is imminent.
I predict that GW are moving towards a skirmish/RPG game of around 35-40 models, much in the vein of the herohammer/ monster hammer days. 6 well supported factions, with regular updates, limited edition books, and rules being exclusive to WD, and various dataslates, is GW taking a leaf out of Magic's book. We're witnessing a steady drip drip drip. Probably to keep people buying, and also to pull the rug from under 3rd party manufacturers.
GW love their big monster kits, people love buying them, so they'll stay. As it stands, having to collect 100+ models for a decent game is off putting for many people, hence the slow decline of fantasy. GW are applying the 40k template to fantasy.
In my view, the GW target audience will be 12-20 years olds, who will throw down £150 for all the models/paints/books they need, and the small model count will get them in the game quicker before they lose interest. Look at GW's paint guides in recent years. Shade, wash, highlight. Quick and easy to do.
I think GW will write off the veterans. They tend to have all the models they need anyway, are moving to other companies in droves, and tend not to buy a lot of GW stuff anyway. GW's model is new blood, and a high turnover at that.
Of course, I could be wrong, I usually am but for me, this is the direction GW are heading in.
Don't be putting forth your argument all logical and persuasive like. You're scaring me, stop it, I don't like it.
In all seriousness though, I'm kind of tentatively excited. Having been out of the loop for ages on WHF, I feel like my non-investment somewhat shields me (in a non-bubble fashion) from the coming storm
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or like Chenkov's 'Send in the next wave' special rule in the Guard's last codex
As I said before, I feel sorry for the veterans, but I'm in the same boat as you - I bailed out of GW 2-3 years ago and sold all my fantasy stuff. I'd be starting with a clean slate, as well.
Easily fixed with giving goblins and skaven a recycling rule that allows them to put dead models back on the table. I'm pretty sure Tyranids had this years ago.
Yeah, that's the problem. It still would not allow the army to represented on the board. Constantly respawning units doesn't spell out "horde".
THe appeal of horde armies is that they look like a horde in the first place. I would not like to see my gobbos reduced to a handful of minis per regiment.
Easily fixed with giving goblins and skaven a recycling rule that allows them to put dead models back on the table. I'm pretty sure Tyranids had this years ago.
Yeah, that's the problem. It still would not allow the army to represented on the board. Constantly respawning units doesn't spell out "horde".
You're forgetting GW's forging a narrative. Let's speculate for a minute. These games are based on the premise of you are the hero, you are the commander.
Let's say it's a skirmish game in a dungeon. You can't see every skaven model, you can't see hordes of rats bearing down on your beleaguered band of Empire soldiers. It's dramatic tension for the game. It fits well into GW's forging a narrative, even if every model is not on the table.
Easily fixed with giving goblins and skaven a recycling rule that allows them to put dead models back on the table. I'm pretty sure Tyranids had this years ago.
Yeah, that's the problem. It still would not allow the army to represented on the board. Constantly respawning units doesn't spell out "horde".
THe appeal of horde armies is that they look like a horde in the first place. I would not like to see my gobbos reduced to a handful of minis per regiment.
If it's a skirmish game, then it's likely your goblin horde would outnumber the enemy 3:1 anyway, and would achieve the 'horde' effect as a result.
Sigvatr wrote: Yeah...well...skirmish has another problem, though: it doesn't work with some armies. Goblins and Skaven, for example, don't work in a skirmish game. Huge numbers of models is what makes those armies.
Skaven had a crew in Mordheim though. Im pretty sure some people made homebrew goblin gangs too.
The hard thing to add would more likely be heavy stuf like chaos warriors.
Edit: They would have to release som awesome ruins and open houses for scenery though. Huzza!
NAVARRO wrote: Really confused about the bases. If infantry goes into circular bases and then movement trays are created why not just keep the square bases as they are in the first place? I do not see why skirmish cannot be played with square bases.
As Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote above your post, and it's not something that I had thought of up until he mentioned it, but going to round bases is a cost cutting measure. They no longer have to support two different styles of base, and can stop making movement trays.
So really this is about cost cutting, and never about the good of the game.
The same reason why they got rid of there specialist games division, your not spending money on there 2 main games! (GW logic not mine) I'm rather excited about these changes as depending how it goes it might bring me back to the GW fold. Massed battle games, this includes 40k as well, should be restricted to epic and warmaster imo.
NAVARRO wrote: Really confused about the bases. If infantry goes into circular bases and then movement trays are created why not just keep the square bases as they are in the first place? I do not see why skirmish cannot be played with square bases.
As Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote above your post, and it's not something that I had thought of up until he mentioned it, but going to round bases is a cost cutting measure. They no longer have to support two different styles of base, and can stop making movement trays.
So really this is about cost cutting, and never about the good of the game.
But for stacking the minis into regiments they would probably use LOTR style of movement trays? Also why did they create a new bigger size for 40k, that goes against cost cutting right? Looks better on some 40k minis but again it surely looks like they are going into extremes to make people rebase all their armies, I wonder why?
I see what you guys are saying and to an extent does make sense, maybe its just me not understanding how saving money on bases you risk destroying decades of WFB armies. Visually Lotr basing system looks pants too.
Replying to 3:1 ration, its different to have 3 blocks of 50 gobbos than 3 blocks of 10, even if other armies have less. I also collect other systems armies and skirmish so the main reason I do WFB is the overall look of the army, being gobbos an extreme example of that. WFB main difference of most other systems is the sheer size of the armies, you lose that and there is not much more that makes WFB visually unique... maybe the superhumans will change that.
unmercifulconker wrote: Recalling the discussion ages ago about why the ET HC books were so low in supply was because GW didnt expect the sales to be THAT good.
So the End Times were to be a set up for the transformation of warhammer, yet didn't expect it to sell many?
Well, I suppose the End Times books might have only been there to send Oldhammer off on a nice little story, but not necessarily sell vastly more than previous Warhammer books (which apparently was where they were wrong). So something like this.
Kirby: WFB makes no revenue, gotta kill it and turn it into something with Space Marines
GW: It's a game with a declining, but loyal following, who enjoy the background of the past 30 years (pours Kirby a drink).
Kirby: Don't care. Kill it. Kill it good. Make Space Marines. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
GW: Ok, ok, you've got us convinced, but let's throw the old timers a bone. Let's close this 30-year tradition with a bang, not a whimper. (pours Kirby another drink).
Kirby: *barf* Fantasy .... Space Marines .... Money
GW: We promise, we'll only make small print runs and large models, which give a far better return per CAD than smaller ones, so they make money quicker and with less units sold (pours Kirby yet another drink)
Kirby: ... and ... Fantasy Marines ... after ... that ... nonsense .... ?
GW: Yes, oh Lord. We promise (another drink).
Kirby: ... alright .. but small print runs, no excess stock. *barf* And throw in a Space Hulk re-release to save our bottom-line.
unmercifulconker wrote: Recalling the discussion ages ago about why the ET HC books were so low in supply was because GW didnt expect the sales to be THAT good.
So the End Times were to be a set up for the transformation of warhammer, yet didn't expect it to sell many?
Well, I suppose the End Times books might have only been there to send Oldhammer off on a nice little story, but not necessarily sell vastly more than previous Warhammer books (which apparently was where they were wrong). So something like this.
Kirby: WFB makes no revenue, gotta kill it and turn it into something with Space Marines
GW: It's a game with a declining, but loyal following, who enjoy the background of the past 30 years (pours Kirby a drink).
Kirby: Don't care. Kill it. Kill it good. Make Space Marines. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
GW: Ok, ok, you've got us convinced, but let's throw the old timers a bone. Let's close this 30-year tradition with a bang, not a whimper. (pours Kirby another drink).
Kirby: *barf* Fantasy .... Space Marines .... Money
GW: We promise, we'll only make small print runs and large models, which give a far better return per CAD than smaller ones, so they make money quicker and with less units sold (pours Kirby yet another drink)
Kirby: ... and ... Fantasy Marines ... after ... that ... nonsense .... ?
GW: Yes, oh Lord. We promise (another drink).
Kirby: ... alright .. but small print runs, no excess stock. *barf* And throw in a Space Hulk re-release to save our bottom-line.
GW: Thank you, oh Lord, thank you, oh Lord.
Terrifyingly funny.
On a side note, ive just went to finish my Khorne stuff and my red gore has completely dried up! A true sign of the end times are upon us.
Mr. Burning wrote: don't wish to be a pedant but its that other schmuck they promoted who should be dramatis personae in our little sketches about GW inner workings now.
Only if the sketch is of a marionette with a Kirby-shaped shadow looming over him.
Mr. Burning wrote: don't wish to be a pedant but its that other schmuck they promoted who should be dramatis personae in our little sketches about GW inner workings now.
Mr. Burning wrote: don't wish to be a pedant but its that other schmuck they promoted who should be dramatis personae in our little sketches about GW inner workings now.
Harry posted another post compilation about what's going on with WFB
Worth to read
Re: Warhammer - And Now For Something Completely Different
Yay ... found it.
Here is everything that Autumn Leaves and I said about this on a thread over 12 months ago.
Originally Posted by Autumn leaves
It's downright sad.
I love Warhammer and I've loved it for years, probably since before some of the younger members here were born. Sadly WFB has not moved with the times and there are so many other options out there now many players have drifted away to them and stayed away.
I had high hopes for my teenage son to follow in my war hammer footsteps but he is not remotely interested in it. God knows I've tried but he is only interested in 40K and not very much either. I can see his his interest waning and all those 40K box sets I bought for him over the years in a vain effort to drag him into the hobby, and then showed him painstakingly how to put together and paint, they are going to be on eBay shortly. The only systems I have managed to get him interested in are the odd game of Space Hulk (yay) and Mantics 'Dwarf Kings Hold'. The idea being if I can keep him interested in DKH then i can turn him onto Mordheim…. but I digress.
A big part of what has taken so many thousands of war hammer players away from war hammer in the last 5 years is three fold and the reasons have been well explained by other members in this thread.
1) Warhammer fluff is generic with slip shod time lines compared to the much better fluff for 40K.
2)The price point has become too high. Big units cost a small fortune and armies look good and play well with big units. The fiscal outlay is prohibitive at bot the entrant level and for the veteran.
3) More modern games have come out with sleeker design features that interest older players looking for something 'different'. Competition has grown up.
Can GW win ground back for the ailing core game?
Of course they can but not by keeping it the same. Many many changes are required to improve its attractiveness to younger market and with the exceedingly precarious performance, that has seen a wide variety of WFB blisters and box sets being deleted by GW from the Indie retailers trade sales selection very scarily shows how little demand there is for the WFB product in the current climate.
When sales drop this low, and it has been happening for a long time, the axe is never far away.
Thats a reality.
Now I'm picking it will be the axe of change not the axe of final destruction that sees WFB take on a new look appealing to the youngsters as a Skirmishing game like 40K and LOtR. Smaller units,much smaller units. Many pundits see the same change approaching as it fits in with the GW sales format. WFB must start to increase it's profitability.
Change is coming.
To keep things the same means that WFB will go the way of the specialist games. Withering profitability = the end.
Can GW fix WFB under it's current format after years of decline in sales?
Possibly but the single biggest problem they have is to get profitability up they have to make it more appealing to the kids at the entrant level.
That would mean changing the format to bring it into line with the other two systems. Especially 40k.
Making it affordable.
1200 points is a skirmish game.
You need 2000 points to have a decent sized game.
If you really like war hammer skirmish then wait for 2015 and thats exactly what you will get as they repackage WFB for the entrant level market.
I have worked for the company.
I still know people that work for the company at Lenton and other parts of the world. I know some popular individuals who used to work for the company. From time to time all of those folks have been useful in offering insights as to what is coming up soon and to how the Kirby Hive mind thinks.
Common sense will tell us that 40K is not going to undergo any changes significant or otherwise, because it's happily making a great deal of money for the PLC.
WFB on the other hand has been suffering on a global level for a long time now and it needs re-booting to return to profitability.
Why would the PLC not take the easiest road to achieving that, by bringing WFB in to mimic the format that is working spectacularly well for 40K beginners?
Warhammer skirmish to get kids and adults in to play the game.
It makes sense and it lowers the entry cost making it instantly more attractive to a wide social strata of customers.
It won't hurt to finish releasing the army books to flesh out 8th edition and it's a fair call to the collectors of those armies without a book for a loooong time. A nod to the customer base. Nice touch.
I really hope the repackaging of war hammer skirmish works because the entire war gamer hobby benefits from the recruiting done by the GW bricks and mortar stores at a beginner entry level.
Perhaps a swan song…
I see Warhammer fantasy Skirmish starter set as a 'stepping stone' into the bigger war hammer game, perfect for entry level, and then options for growth of the beginners army into something more rewarding in time to come.
I can also see scenario aspects of the skirmish game that would lend itself in a slightly campaign way (each game affects the next) toward the Mordheim feel.
This is not a bad thing people, it could be a great new dawning for a system that drastically needs to be overhauled to catch up to the modern thinking that has moved on over the years.
I'm excited about it.
Perhaps introducing a skirmish style entrant level element in 2015 will give GW design a real chance to have the critical time to reinvent the wheel on WFB.
This last line I found interesting. He almost suggests 9th edition will be a temporary fix why they decide what to do with the Mass fantasy battle game???
Originally Posted by Autumn Leaves
Yeah they did fail with Warhammer skirmish in the past but to be fair that was pitched at an adult market more than an entrant level market.
I'm sure they have done their homework and they will make the new box set more attractive both price wise and game design wise than the previous war hammer skirmish.
Also, warhammer skirmish back in the day was quite an attractive game, but we had a fully supported Mordheim to fall back on. The cross over on other in-house systems was an issue for the older gamers.
No cross over now and an opportunity to get interest kindled in starting into fantasy with a skirmish box set.
I really don't think it's going to be a big problem for the older vets.
A new painting challenge.
A new gaming challenge.
Something that is guaranteed to be finished in a single club night. Maybe even two games O_o
WFB needs to be more accessible to the entrant level. Going to skirmish was the obvious choice, and the right choice.
But the round bases might be another issue..
Here is the first time anyone mentioned Round bases in fantasy.... as soon as he said this I knew he was not guessing ...as this was something I had already heard and you simply would never guess this for fantasy
Originally Posted by Malagor
Autumn Leaves, just because you keep repeating the same nonsense over and over again won't stop it from being nonsense.
Originally Posted by Harry
What if, eventually, he is shown to be the only one talking sense?
Originally Posted by Harry
As I have said repeatedly ... I do not know where the dust settled on all of this. Maybe the starter set is a skirmish game as Mr Leaves suggests ... maybe it's not?
Maybe Warhammer 9th is JUST a skirmish game ... as Mr. Leaves suggests ... Maybe it's not? Maybe they found a way of making it scale up successfully from a few figures in a skirmish encounter to an ambush on the vanguard to a full blown battle between two armies, to an apocalyptic 10,000 point battle of DOOOOOOOM!
That's what I have always done with every rules set (every edition) ... some have needed more bending than others.
It is how we did it in olden times.
I have huge armies of most fantasy armies but have always enjoyed playing small skirmish level games ... often as a prelude to and influencing future bigger games. I use smaller games as a way of focussing on individual units and writing their back story so they become more than just "a unit of 25 spearmen" and become something more ... "Bronzino and the Brown jackets, The veterans of skulldoom pass" etc ... you get the point.
Warhammer's origins were Role playing games ... I have always found it hard to shake that off ... thankfully.
I have been playing more 3rd edition than 8th edition recently ... but I still enjoy 8th edition ... however, the two games have very little to do with each other .... so it's not that big a deal to me if 9th edition is different again.
Just another way to enjoy Warhammer.
I am not saying Yes or No ... I am saying "I don't know".
All I know is they started into a 'ground up' re-write a couple of years ago.
Nothing was sacred. Not the timeline. Not the stat line. They started with a fresh page.
Anything could have changed ... Everything could have changed.
I have heard ... a few things since ... but not enough to say with any certainty what 9th edition will be.
Originally Posted by Autumn Leaves
I said Warhammer Fantasy won't be getting a new edition until 2015 and I also said it's going to be warhammer skirmish game in a similar format to the 40K starter sets and I also said that WFB is only contributing 8% of the overall revenue of GW's annual income in the last 12 months and thats a primary reason why the bean counters in the PLC are demanding some serious change to the former flagship core game.
Yes they are going to be 'rejuvenating' the Warhammer fantasy brand so it's more entrant level friendly for the kids.
I have made my predictions and I totally stand by them.
Watch and wait to see if they come true.
The company is undergoing some serious changes, the WD has been revamped already.
Originally Posted by Harry
Maybe they think they have cracked it with 8th edition (for the time being ... or once every army has a nice shiny new book) and the Skirmish thing for Fantasy (That Autumn leaves suggests) is more like Storm of Magic ... except designed to enable smaller games rather than bigger games ... just adding another dimension to the existing core game... Rather than replacing it. Just a thought.
Originally Posted by Autumn Leaves
Warhammer skirmish will be the gateway for the entrant level customers to be introduced to milieu.
Most of us won't buy it for anything other than the ruleset. I played LotR as a skirmish game but my miniatures were all on square bases and rectangular for the horses, so I could use them in war hammer and other systems.
You can easily buy movement trays for round bases to be ranked up in from the net.
The 8% is not a prediction or a rumour, it's a stone cold fact and the number may very sadly be a little high by the 'summer' of 2014 where GW numbers annually take a nosedive.
Gentlemen, wfb is sinking and not slowly, why… WHY do you think there is so much activity going on in the background around the White Dwarf revamp etc
Parents are not buying into a game for their kids where they are staring down the barrel of hundreds and hundreds of pounds just to build 'one army' on GW's current pricing strategy.
40K or LotR offer a cost ceiling in terms of box sets and whats required to crank out a little game for the entrant level customer.
LotR/The Hobbit is running hot at the box office and it's a self contained skirmish game.
40K does not make demands on the customer to purchase a wide variety of Big units. A couple of squads and a dreadnought or a tank and you're done, chances are most parents are thinking those toys will be in bits at the bottom of the toy box in a couple of months anyway. You know how kids are…
If the child shows a genuine interest then the incremental attachment for either LotR and in particular 40K are user friendly. Another squad and/or another tank/dreadnought/APC and you're all set.
They both play well for the entrant level customers and particularly 40K has enjoyed ongoing success and buoyancy.
Try playing war hammer with a unit of 25 models on each side and a general on a mount for each. With a war machine each.
It's beyond dull.
It's ridiculously expensive for what you get.
The actual customers worldwide who are buying these toys for their kids are not stupid. They can see the amount of money required to play war hammer effectively as it was meant to be played and as it is portrayed in the literature within the stores, i.e. with multiple units on each side and then they look at the boxes, how many figures do you get for how much?
Mums are thinking about the weekly food shop bill and that pair of Jimmy Choo's at the end of the month that hubby doesn't know is on the credit card yet… "Ummm, I think we'll take the space game thank you."
Of course GW are not foolish, the board members know Fantasy has been sick as a pig for a while now and it needs more than a revamp at 8%, it needs a full overhaul. Bar a few tweaks over the years it's essentially the same game designed in the very early 90's for 4th edition.
It's clearly not working and all the indicators are there to tell us it's not going to work until it is changed.
Warhammer skirmish?
Brilliant.
It gives the fantasy aspect of GW a chance to compete on a level playing field with 40K in a well priced self contained box set. Father and son can play it in a couple of hours at the dining room table and then son can teach it to his little buddies on the weekend. The budget can stretch to augmenting the model count to keep the boys interested. Job done.
In the meantime GW can flesh out all the army books for 8th edition and win the hearts and minds of elements of the disgruntled older members of the fraternity, and in the meantime, get to work feverishly on WFB 10th edition with an ALL NEW ruleset. Modernised and maximised for excellent quick gameplay. Reasonable levels of items and magic. Skirmishers that don't reinvent the wheel. Cannons that don't come with laser sighting, GPS and night vision et al the list goes on and on…
It will be the game that brings back the grumpy old grognards and joins them with the bubbly fan bois and we can all be happy little peas in a pod once again. 2015 is looking very positive.
Originally Posted by Harry
If Autumn Leaves is correct about the Skirmish thing ...This is the only thing that makes sense to me.
The only reason we are expecting a new edition of Warhammer fantasy Battle is because that is what we have had every few years.
BUT I remember having a conversation with Jervis and Gav .... so this is gong back a few years ... where they stated that they wanted to get Warhammer to the point that it did not need updating/re-writing and they wanted to get all the army books completed in such a way that they were robust enough to survive changes to the rules so they did not need to keep re-writing them. The reason for doing this was to allow them to look at more interesting things to develop aspects of Warhammer they did not have time to do. We discussed the obvious things like Skirmish, Siege, but also fighting on boats, in tunnels/underground, exploring new areas of the map, etc.
Alright this was a few editions and many years ago but what if? What if they feel they have reached that point with 8th. Where a new edition isn't going to change very much. Where every army has a book. What if they decide NOT to do a new edition but stick with Warhammer 8th as it is ... consider this the finished product for a while. .... What would they explore next?
We already have "Storm of Magic" for 'Big magic, Big Monster' games.
Maybe they would look next at Skirmish? (Autumn Leaves seems convinced).
So no new BRB ... as rumoured. But a new starter set ... as rumoured.
Not needing full army books but where all the armies could be combined in less books ... as rumoured. Would certainly be the way to present warband options.
Mmmm.
I was still left with some of the other stuff I had heard about the timeline advancing and multiple books. (Will it be two, three or four books?)
A recent conversation prompted a new line of thought ....
and started to make a different kind of sense to me.
What if this was nothing to to with the next edition .... but a "what would they explore next?"
What if they decided to explore different area of the world or different periods of history? Source books for playing warhammer in different times and places.
Same game ... same rules set just changing the setting a bit ... bit like the Lustria stuff.
An excuse to explore some new special rules, introduce some new characters, new monsters, exploring some undiscovered corner of the world or some undescribed period of history ... currently little more than a dot on the map or a story in an army book. A chance to undertake some new modelling projects, sculpt some new minis.
One book might be 500 years ahead, one 500 years the past (or exploring some key point in recent history). One might be based in an area of the world which has not been detailed yet. (Like the Lustrian stuff).
This started to make some sort of sense to me ... but it was late at night.
What if? What if you a games Developer for Warhammer fantasy? What if you were told you didn't need to write an new edition or rewrite an army book? Where would you go next? What aspect of Warhammer would you like to explore?
My guesswork here almost describing 'bubbles'
Originally Posted by Harry
I don't think they are trying to destroy it.
I suspect they will be trying their hardest to breath new life into it.
We are not seeing the end times for Warhammer just yet.
NAVARRO wrote: Really confused about the bases. If infantry goes into circular bases and then movement trays are created why not just keep the square bases as they are in the first place? I do not see why skirmish cannot be played with square bases.
As Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote above your post, and it's not something that I had thought of up until he mentioned it, but going to round bases is a cost cutting measure. They no longer have to support two different styles of base, and can stop making movement trays.
So really this is about cost cutting, and never about the good of the game.
But for stacking the minis into regiments they would probably use LOTR style of movement trays? Also why did they create a new bigger size for 40k, that goes against cost cutting right? Looks better on some 40k minis but again it surely looks like they are going into extremes to make people rebase all their armies, I wonder why?
I see what you guys are saying and to an extent does make sense, maybe its just me not understanding how saving money on bases you risk destroying decades of WFB armies. Visually Lotr basing system looks pants too.
Replying to 3:1 ration, its different to have 3 blocks of 50 gobbos than 3 blocks of 10, even if other armies have less. I also collect other systems armies and skirmish so the main reason I do WFB is the overall look of the army, being gobbos an extreme example of that. WFB main difference of most other systems is the sheer size of the armies, you lose that and there is not much more that makes WFB visually unique... maybe the superhumans will change that.
But you're not destroying decades of warhammer armies if you're GW. Look at this way. If you're GW, you don't care if somebody has been buying minis from the 1990s - you've got their money. What they do with the figures after that is not a factor. They could stick them up their noses for all GW care. Coca cola sell millions of tins every year, but would the coca cola bosses care if nobody drank the stuff, or poured it down the drain? Of Course not, as long as they get the money.
From a rational business sense, it's mad, because you want customers coming back. But that's not GW's model. GW don't care for veterans - all they do is moan , switch to other systems, and as I've said, they've got more than enough figures anyway.
GW's model is reliant on kids persuading mums to throw down 200 dollars/pounds/Euros etc in one go and it's reliant on die hards spending money every month. People moan about every new edition, but most of them still buy it anyway.
probably because that would mean once you buy a Warband you wouldnt be buying the latest "fantasy" space marines stuff?
It's coming back - as a video game and that's a win win for GW as they profit from an intellectual licence, word spreads about their games, and somebody else had to put the money in to make it.
chochky wrote: I don't know if this has been mentioned on this thread already (haven't kept up with all 20+ pages), but do you guys remember the spanish rumors thread posted on Warseer early last fall?
They were the first to mention a release of Nagash / End Times campaign (May 29th), but did so in a context saying that this End Times campaign would be the lead to a closure of "Warhammer" (presumably WFB, not 40K), followed by a subsequent new skirmish game (presumably fantasy-ish-themed) in 2015
and
Originally Posted by cazzz669
So, just got off the horn with a contact at GW who apparently has just come out of a briefing regarding the future of WHF in May 2015 after the End of Times WHF will become a skirmish game centered around surviving warbands after the "armegeddon" of the fantasy world as a result of the End of Times.
Chaos decimate the Empire
Nagash and co decimate Brettonia
Ulthuan sinks
there will be less army books than currently ( no idea if this means imalgimation armies )
appreciate I do not post very often so will doubtless recieve a whole load of flame for this post BUT given i literally just got told it, thought some people here would appreciate me sharing..
Personally I hope to god this is all incorrect
That second quote in particular mentions Ulthuan sinking, which happened in the Khaine book. Bear in mind these rumors were posted before the Khaine book was released. The May release date also roughly lines up with Darnok's rumored release date of April (i.e. late spring not summer). All of this, in combination, kind of make these rumors a bit more believable to me... and have made me a lot more concerned.
Thoughts?
Nice find, chochky!
And thanks for posting that, Warhams. I'd give Harry more credit if he was less cryptic, though . It's great that he knew this was coming, but it would've been hard to get all this out of his dropped hints.
Hmmm wow ok that is an excellent read. Thanks for posting it Warhams
I always thought this change was a business decision to simply get WFB to make GW enough money as they wanted; that our beloved universe was getting a new story solely for the sake of money rather than making money because of a new story. I know I know this is every business but it just annoyed me the most about this change, that it was greed driven. I didn't realise the sales compared to 40k were that low (if true).
The more I think about how I loved lotr games. The idea of a Skirmish is starting to ease with me. HOWEVER I will always love Warhammer for these mass clashes and this planet at war.
If the lore is as good as the end times developments then I wont worry at all actually and should known this from the start but perhaps my anger got the better of me.
The logic Harry has provided around the need for Skirmish is actually more customer focused which is nice to see and does make sense. Although simply lowering the cost of creating an army may also do the trick.
Regular expansions and such... Would I prefer regular updates to say create a dedicated Slaanesh warband with dedicated models and game with a lower cost? Maybe.
This situation is like the twin tailed comet. I am seeing it as an omen of doom. Perhaps however I should be seeing it as a sign of great change. Who knows.
I am now just going to enjoy the ride and wait and see. If it does turn out to be great change with small games leading up to mass armies with awesome new lore, then I owe GW a massive apology. If it doesnt... then well lets just wait and see.
I'd give Harry more credit if he was less cryptic, though
Absolutely He is usually very reasonable and careful with what he hears to prevent hysteria and broken gamer hearts, protect the sources and because he is not part of the company and only gets info told by others. I like how he is acting responsible by the way he does it. Also he probably (just guessing he did not mention it) does this to protect him from the madness of the GW legal team
I love miniatures and fluff, but last times a played a 750 pts games (of battle or 40k) i thought i would fell asleep ...
All units in CC. " Dude, just throw the dices for me and tell me who won ok" ?
A 10-20 miniatures would be welcome. Although i'm not a Magic/yugioh player , I was always jealous that they can play their game in 20 min with just a 10-50€ deck in the pocket...
Do you think Kirby's been planning this for months?
Months?
First leak (I am aware of) of Warhammer going Skirmish and a rumoured Nagash release to send WFB on it's way are from May 2014. At this point in time, Nagash and the concept of End Times was already in place.
Put a lead time of 12 months (?) to develop a miniature like Nagash (Glottkin, etc..) from concept to box, and you're looking at May 2013. Add another 6 months (?) of brainstorming and design talk to come up with and plan the End Times / New Warhammer in its rough framework, and you're looking at late fall 2013.
Best guess, the final decision to kill WFB was made after the 2012/2013 financial year, which ended in june 2013, so summer 2013. The option or possibility has probably been discussed long before that.
Alternative theory, "Warhammer Skirmish" was planned even longer, release mid-2014, but things didn't pan out or got stuck, and thus they pulled 40K 7th forward to 2014 (without enough time to develop a Dark Vengeance-replacement) and pushed the new Warhammer back, In that case, the decision probably goes back to around summer 2012, which, funny enough, was the summer Mark Wells allegedly had a falling out with Kirby and decided to leave at the end of 2012.
eflix29 - I agree with the skirmish sentiment - I'm certainly open to the idea, if done well. That's the rub, really. I wish they'd take the LOTR rules to use, and not just force it on top of 8th edition rules.
NAVARRO wrote: Also why did they create a new bigger size for 40k, that goes against cost cutting right?
Preparing for the variety of Fantasy miniatures (and they're likely phasing out the old ones). Plus there's also the Chapterhouse of it all. Everyone and their dog makes regular bases, so of course GW would pick a new size that no one uses to replace the old one.
Do you think Kirby's been planning this for months?
Months?
First leak (I am aware of) of Warhammer going Skirmish and a rumoured Nagash release to send WFB on it's way are from May 2014. At this point in time, Nagash and the concept of End Times was already in place.
Put a lead time of 12 months (?) to develop a miniature like Nagash (Glottkin, etc..) from concept to box, and you're looking at May 2013. Add another 6 months (?) of brainstorming and design talk to come up with and plan the End Times / New Warhammer in its rough framework, and you're looking at late fall 2013.
Best guess, the final decision to kill WFB was made after the 2012/2013 financial year, which ended in june 2013, so summer 2013. The option or possibility has probably been discussed long before that.
Alternative theory, "Warhammer Skirmish" was planned even longer, release mid-2014, but things didn't pan out or got stuck, and thus they pulled 40K 7th forward to 2014 (without enough time to develop a Dark Vengeance-replacement) and pushed the new Warhammer back, In that case, the decision probably goes back to around summer 2012, which, funny enough, was the summer Mark Wells allegedly had a falling out with Kirby and decided to leave at the end of 2012.
Fair point, but I have this dread feeling this summer that when 9th drops on us, we'll be looking at a game where you need a 10,000 point army minimum and goblins will be 5 for £20. How silly will we look if that happens?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Pure conjecture on my part, but if I were converting Fantasy along the line of 40k, and I had GW's mindset, I'd do the following:
6 factions with unique factions names ,like they did with Astra Militarium ) to protect IP and annoy 3rd party people. I would have Elves, Chaos, Defenders of Light (Empire/Dwarves/Brettonia) Orcs merged with Ogres, Skaven, and Undead. Lizardmen could depart. Never liked them anyway
A starter set timed to go on sale at Christmas 2015
The ability to buy a complete warband in a box, or individual core units on sale to customise your own force. A warband in a box + a rulebook = one stop shop for GW's target market of kids getting their mums to throw down £150
Regular updates/rules in WD and dataslates on sale. Maximum profit for minimum cost.
Regular release schedule with limited edition stuff - get them sold out fast. Plenty of evidence to suggest this works.
Why am I, GW, doing this?
1. I'm in a poor financial state
2. The 40k template works - apply it to fantasy (which is gasping for air anyway)
3. My one man stores are well suited to get kids in for starting fantasy games.
4. My paint range is designed for quick and easy results which look good: base, wash, highlight, textured paint on bases. Easy.
5. All my games will use round bases - money saved.
6. Veterans don't contribute much to my profits, as they've jumped ship anyway, but I'll get forge world to throw them a bone from time to time or do a campaign every two years for the bigger games.
7. Skirmish games in dungeons will need new terrain sets. Cheap to make and can for sold for a decent price = more profit.
The game is dying due to poor decisions by the company, not any intrinsic problem with a mass battle game. The issue is the ridiculous prices of GW plastics, the ridiculous prices of the rules and the way the 8th edition rules push for bigger and bigger units.
In 6th and 7th edition Fantasy was a popular and widely played game. Kings of War is successful for Mantic despite being a mass battle fantasy game. Lots of historicals are mass battles and many people use 28mm miniatures for them.
The problems with Fantasy are GW's fault, and their solution will simply push more people to KoW.
Bronzefists42 wrote: Is 8% the profit of fantasy? Whatever that represents it is too low to run A business on.
If so this isn't the evil geedubs trying to take away our toys, this is trying to stay in business while keeping fantasy intact.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I was too intimidated by fantasy before but skirmish sounds great.
But setting it in dungeons won't help make warhammer more distinctive.
Can you just clarify for me, in what sense do you consider a game with different models, different factions, different background, and different rules "keeping Fantasy intact"? This new game will be Warhammer Fantasy in the same sense that a wall ornament post-taxidermy is a Moose.
I doubt many will deny they needed to do something with Fantasy to boost sales, but lets not pretend that the path they've chosen is motivated by trying to preserve the heritage of the IP, like all their recent decisions this is the easiest and most short-term focused solution, and lets also remember that the reason they needed to do something with Fantasy in the first place is their own incompetent mismanagement of the property.
WF Skirmish sounds pretty cool to me, but I hope they keep lizardmen. They're the one big draw to me for fantasy, but I never had the drive or the change to start a full army before.
As a 40k player who tried to get into fantasy last year, this actually sounds cool. I tried playing with dwarves and woodelves but couldn't get past the sheer number of models necessary and just how boring most of the battles were. Watching people play at my FLGS was a snoozer, T4 looked exactly like T2.
I'd love a warband version in the vein of Mordheim (which is a lot of fun) if they expanded on some campaign/rpg elements.
What are they going to do with all the armies they have done in display cases at warhammer world? Do you think they will spend the time, money, effort to rebate all those armies to round bases? Or do you think as a great financial decision they will just toss them all in a bin.
I really can't see them paying someone to pop them all off their old bases.
This is like boxing. You get hit and hit and hit and hit... Back on your feet... Next round... bam bam bam... Back on your feet
Ok next round
This is pretty interesting - from Warseer
Harry
My final thought before I go paint something .... it is everybody's assumption that the rumoured 'six' will ALL be familiar.
that most stuff will be saved and crammed into one 'faction' or another.
The only two I am certain of is Humanity and Chaos.
You have to retain humanity to have some connection with the game. (But I don't think these will be familiar as the either Bretonnians or Empire 500 years on).
Chaos is as GW as .... square bases for fantasy Also ... they look set to win!
After that I wouldn't bet on anything.
I think Skaven stand the best shout. Rats seem to do well after a bit of death and destruction and they are also a GW creation. BUT they were introduced as Chaos Ratmen .... so they might get rolled into Chaos?
I think some sort of Undead must be in there ... it's not like they will be short of dead bodies after the dust settles on the End Times. Will they be familiar as either VC or TK? Can't see why they would.
Everything else (If for no other reason that it is too generic and un protected) seems to be set to be knocked back into the stone age or into the history books. High Elves sink? Dwarves disappear under the mountains? Elves return to tree hugging in the deep woods. Lizardmen leave the planet. Who's going to left who can put up a fight? ... and we still have slots to fill.
I wouldn't bet against Fishmen Ichthyosapiens ... no one is fighting in the oceans ... or Insect men ... insects survive everything ...or some sort of Sky living birdmen/angels type thing as no one is fighting in the air especially either.
There was rumour about a new race for Warhammer ages ago. I don't remember the details but their were two parts to it. 1) they needed to find the Fantasy equivalent of SM and 2) They had always been here, part of the warhammer world just not visible.
So a race that lived underground and stayed out of everyones way, (Bit like the Skaven ... assumed not to exist by most normal folk) under the sea or in the sky and had stayed out of everyones way?
Don't know if there was anything in it, can't even remember where I heard it ... but I honestly would NOT be surprised to see a new (protectable) race. (or two) ... Everything else is up in the air ... why not the warhammer races?!
Re: Warhammer - And Now For Something Completely Different
Originally Posted by Harry
There was rumour about a new race for Warhammer ages ago. I don't remember the details but their were two parts to it. 1) they needed to find the Fantasy equivalent of SM and 2) They had always been here, part of the warhammer world just not visible.
The pre-undead Morghasts fit that bill: the Hammurai, demigods sent by Ptra God of Light, massive winged creatures in arcane armour with powerful weapons. Yup, already established during the ET books, just needs some magic mumbo-jumbo to bring the "living versions" back in numbers.
Bronzefists42 wrote: Is 8% the profit of fantasy? Whatever that represents it is too low to run A business on.
If so this isn't the evil geedubs trying to take away our toys, this is trying to stay in business while keeping fantasy intact.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I was too intimidated by fantasy before but skirmish sounds great.
But setting it in dungeons won't help make warhammer more distinctive.
Can you just clarify for me, in what sense do you consider a game with different models, different factions, different background, and different rules "keeping Fantasy intact"? This new game will be Warhammer Fantasy in the same sense that a wall ornament post-taxidermy is a Moose.
I doubt many will deny they needed to do something with Fantasy to boost sales, but lets not pretend that the path they've chosen is motivated by trying to preserve the heritage of the IP, like all their recent decisions this is the easiest and most short-term focused solution, and lets also remember that the reason they needed to do something with Fantasy in the first place is their own incompetent mismanagement of the property.
Things have always changed with Warhammer,
I remember beginning with small narrative campaign box sets (Battle of Orcs Drift and the Tragedy of McDeath) which are long gone, using a rule set which is also long gone (although the current one uses the same stats)
so this new version may not be one you like (while I'm not fussed about reality bubbles I don't like the sound of all the races being more 'touched' by chaos), the rules may not suit you, but it will still be Warhammer,
just like 8th edition is still Warhammer compared to the 1st edition
Now I'm certainly not saying a lot of the issues leading up to this haven't been down to mind numbin stupidty from GW, but once they made those decisions something has to change otherwise the whole game would end up in the same place as Dark Future and Dread Fleet
Wait and see what happens, as long as there are releases for this new system fans of 'original' warhammer will port them across to the old game (and hopefully the lack of cost of digital army books will mean GW will keep selling 8th at least online so the game will not die as long as people want it to survive)
They had to do something, fantasy is as dead as a doornail in my area. Some of the boxes have visible dust on them, and both stores keep it off to the side so games like X Wing and warmahordes have more space.
At least if they go skirmish people might start up again. I remember looking at the costs to start fantasy once and laughing, and at the time I played IG AND Orks
From what I've seen in my area, its to the point where they can't make it any worse. Its to the point where something has to change if its to stick around. I can understand the vets being upset, but if fantasy is as bad everywhere else as it is here, change is inevitable
Easily fixed with giving goblins and skaven a recycling rule that allows them to put dead models back on the table. I'm pretty sure Tyranids had this years ago.
Yeah, that's the problem. It still would not allow the army to represented on the board. Constantly respawning units doesn't spell out "horde".
You're forgetting GW's forging a narrative. Let's speculate for a minute. These games are based on the premise of you are the hero, you are the commander.
Let's say it's a skirmish game in a dungeon. You can't see every skaven model, you can't see hordes of rats bearing down on your beleaguered band of Empire soldiers. It's dramatic tension for the game. It fits well into GW's forging a narrative, even if every model is not on the table.
I got ya, but that isn't WHFB then. That's Mordheim. The only appeal of WHFB over other games is the large scale, formations, tactical movement etc. Ye know, actual /armies/ fighting each other instead of small units as in 40k.
Aye. Fantasy has always been a "blocks of troops" game, and there's nothing suggesting that type of game is not popular. The problem is the high prices and large unit sizes. Scale the game back down to 20 man blocks as standard and cut the model prices, and we'd see an upsurge.
Ah well. I've got my armies, I've got the KOW rules, I can still play a mass battle game.
Will be watching this new game with interest but I doubt it will be built as a game so much as a "money making strategy".
GW, I would be disappointed if I hadn't given up caring about what you do.
Honestly, I think the round bases/tray with round holes thing makes perfect sense for a game that trends toward dispersed formations at small sizes and ranked at large sizes. It sounds like a much more flexible edition. And while anything's possible, GW actually doesn't have much track record of forcing wholesale, army wide base changes. I expect that we'll get the same kind of statement on that like we usually get.
This has a much better chance of getting me back into FB than another tweaked edition. I never bothered getting the rulebook for 8th, and don't even have a current army book for my army.
Da Boss wrote: The game is dying due to poor decisions by the company, not any intrinsic problem with a mass battle game. The issue is the ridiculous prices of GW plastics, the ridiculous prices of the rules and the way the 8th edition rules push for bigger and bigger units.
In 6th and 7th edition Fantasy was a popular and widely played game. Kings of War is successful for Mantic despite being a mass battle fantasy game. Lots of historicals are mass battles and many people use 28mm miniatures for them.
The problems with Fantasy are GW's fault, and their solution will simply push more people to KoW.
Agree with this entirely, but rightly or wrongly, GW are where they are. The heady days of 6th and 7th will never be re-captured as technology and new competitors have moved wargaming on.
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Bronzefists42 wrote: Is 8% the profit of fantasy? Whatever that represents it is too low to run A business on.
If so this isn't the evil geedubs trying to take away our toys, this is trying to stay in business while keeping fantasy intact.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I was too intimidated by fantasy before but skirmish sounds great.
But setting it in dungeons won't help make warhammer more distinctive.
I doubt if it will be exclusively dungeons, more likely blasted landscapes and ruined towns.
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Theophony wrote: What are they going to do with all the armies they have done in display cases at warhammer world? Do you think they will spend the time, money, effort to rebate all those armies to round bases? Or do you think as a great financial decision they will just toss them all in a bin.
I really can't see them paying someone to pop them all off their old bases.
They'd probably just keep them, as they'd still look good.
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MrMoustaffa wrote: They had to do something, fantasy is as dead as a doornail in my area. Some of the boxes have visible dust on them, and both stores keep it off to the side so games like X Wing and warmahordes have more space.
At least if they go skirmish people might start up again. I remember looking at the costs to start fantasy once and laughing, and at the time I played IG AND Orks
From what I've seen in my area, its to the point where they can't make it any worse. Its to the point where something has to change if its to stick around. I can understand the vets being upset, but if fantasy is as bad everywhere else as it is here, change is inevitable
So you weren't interested in collecting 200+ Skaven models for a decent sized game?
Easily fixed with giving goblins and skaven a recycling rule that allows them to put dead models back on the table. I'm pretty sure Tyranids had this years ago.
Yeah, that's the problem. It still would not allow the army to represented on the board. Constantly respawning units doesn't spell out "horde".
You're forgetting GW's forging a narrative. Let's speculate for a minute. These games are based on the premise of you are the hero, you are the commander.
Let's say it's a skirmish game in a dungeon. You can't see every skaven model, you can't see hordes of rats bearing down on your beleaguered band of Empire soldiers. It's dramatic tension for the game. It fits well into GW's forging a narrative, even if every model is not on the table.
I got ya, but that isn't WHFB then. That's Mordheim. The only appeal of WHFB over other games is the large scale, formations, tactical movement etc. Ye know, actual /armies/ fighting each other instead of small units as in 40k.
They'll probably introduce an apocalypse style expansion for Fantasy to get round this.
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gorgon wrote: Honestly, I think the round bases/tray with round holes thing makes perfect sense for a game that trends toward dispersed formations at small sizes and ranked at large sizes. It sounds like a much more flexible edition. And while anything's possible, GW actually doesn't have much track record of forcing wholesale, army wide base changes. I expect that we'll get the same kind of statement on that like we usually get.
This has a much better chance of getting me back into FB than another tweaked edition. I never bothered getting the rulebook for 8th, and don't even have a current army book for my army.
I feel exactly the same. Version 8.1, with a few tweaks would have me reaching for a revolver
But a new game where I only have to paint 30 models? I could do that in 2-3 days and be more likely to sign up for it.
Da Boss wrote: Aye. Fantasy has always been a "blocks of troops" game, and there's nothing suggesting that type of game is not popular. The problem is the high prices and large unit sizes. Scale the game back down to 20 man blocks as standard and cut the model prices, and we'd see an upsurge.
Ah well. I've got my armies, I've got the KOW rules, I can still play a mass battle game.
Will be watching this new game with interest but I doubt it will be built as a game so much as a "money making strategy".
GW, I would be disappointed if I hadn't given up caring about what you do.
If the game is released this summer, all decisions are already made.
Cutting prices is not an option.
I wonder...if GW releases a Skirmish game, why would anyone want to play it? GW rules are poorly done and if you want a proper Skirmish game, just go for WM/H.
In the end, it's another game GW would try to make a success just by their name alone - and vets will not be interested in it at all and stick to 8th.
...all of this assuming the news are actually true.
/e: Ehem, I don't think that after so many years, calling WHFB a skirmish game at heart is that appropriate
Sigvatr wrote: I wonder...if GW releases a Skirmish game, why would anyone want to play it? GW rules are poorly done and if you want a proper Skirmish game, just go for WM/H.
For the same reason the rest of the GW range sells; the rules are perfectly servicable, and the greater availability means you're far more likely to get a game.
And as for whether or not they can write a Skirmish game, look at LotR, Necromunda and Mordhiem.
Sigvatr wrote: I wonder...if GW releases a Skirmish game, why would anyone want to play it? GW rules are poorly done and if you want a proper Skirmish game, just go for WM/H.
For the same reason the rest of the GW range sells; the rules are perfectly servicable, and the greater availability means you're far more likely to get a game.
And as for whether or not they can write a Skirmish game, look at LotR, Necromunda and Mordhiem.
And how are sales for those ranges doing?.......yeah.
Maybe GW doesn't want another game at the same level as 40k which would be a contender.
A game at a smaller scale could sell well especially since there is a community of players who own already the models.
Bronzefists42 wrote: Is 8% the profit of fantasy? Whatever that represents it is too low to run A business on.
If so this isn't the evil geedubs trying to take away our toys, this is trying to stay in business while keeping fantasy intact.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I was too intimidated by fantasy before but skirmish sounds great.
But setting it in dungeons won't help make warhammer more distinctive.
Can you just clarify for me, in what sense do you consider a game with different models, different factions, different background, and different rules "keeping Fantasy intact"? This new game will be Warhammer Fantasy in the same sense that a wall ornament post-taxidermy is a Moose.
I doubt many will deny they needed to do something with Fantasy to boost sales, but lets not pretend that the path they've chosen is motivated by trying to preserve the heritage of the IP, like all their recent decisions this is the easiest and most short-term focused solution, and lets also remember that the reason they needed to do something with Fantasy in the first place is their own incompetent mismanagement of the property.
Things have always changed with Warhammer,
I remember beginning with small narrative campaign box sets (Battle of Orcs Drift and the Tragedy of McDeath) which are long gone, using a rule set which is also long gone (although the current one uses the same stats)
so this new version may not be one you like (while I'm not fussed about reality bubbles I don't like the sound of all the races being more 'touched' by chaos), the rules may not suit you, but it will still be Warhammer,
just like 8th edition is still Warhammer compared to the 1st edition
Now I'm certainly not saying a lot of the issues leading up to this haven't been down to mind numbin stupidty from GW, but once they made those decisions something has to change otherwise the whole game would end up in the same place as Dark Future and Dread Fleet
Wait and see what happens, as long as there are releases for this new system fans of 'original' warhammer will port them across to the old game (and hopefully the lack of cost of digital army books will mean GW will keep selling 8th at least online so the game will not die as long as people want it to survive)
I don't agree. There are things which are fundamental to Fantasy, not least the Warhammer World itself, which will no longer exist in this new game. We're not talking about killing off one or two characters, or adding a new unit, we're talking about changing everything in one fell swoop. I've been playing GW games for twenty years, when in that time have they completely swept the board clean and brought in entirely new factions, background, rules, and setting all in one go? When in that time was Fantasy ever without recognisable versions of the main factions we have today? Certainly since 3E things have never changed this drastically, and even in the 2E Bestiary the map of the world is the same as the modern one just with less detail, and the broad strokes of the human factions of the Old World are laid out, along with the various types of Elves, the Dwarves etc. Realistically once GW hit 3E Fantasy and 2E 40K, they have tinkered around the edges, but the fundamentals have remained broadly the same.
Think about that for a moment; 3E Warhammer Fantasy came out in 1991, that IP has maintained broadly the same form, fiction and aesthetic since I was five years old. Trying to paint these rumoured upcoming changes as having any precedent that's even remotely recent is borderline disingenuous.
Sigvatr wrote: I wonder...if GW releases a Skirmish game, why would anyone want to play it? GW rules are poorly done and if you want a proper Skirmish game, just go for WM/H.
For the same reason the rest of the GW range sells; the rules are perfectly servicable, and the greater availability means you're far more likely to get a game.
And as for whether or not they can write a Skirmish game, look at LotR, Necromunda and Mordhiem.
And how are sales for those ranges doing?.......yeah.
The question was, can GW write proper skirmish rules? And to answer, all three of those systems are excellent skirmish rulesets (if a bit dated in the cases of Necromunda and Mordheim). The sales, or lack thereof, of all those systems have more to do with GW's mismanagement than anything else. So save your cheap shots for someplace that makes sense.
NAVARRO wrote: Really confused about the bases. If infantry goes into circular bases and then movement trays are created why not just keep the square bases as they are in the first place? I do not see why skirmish cannot be played with square bases.
As Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote above your post, and it's not something that I had thought of up until he mentioned it, but going to round bases is a cost cutting measure. They no longer have to support two different styles of base, and can stop making movement trays.
So really this is about cost cutting, and never about the good of the game.
But for stacking the minis into regiments they would probably use LOTR style of movement trays? Also why did they create a new bigger size for 40k, that goes against cost cutting right? Looks better on some 40k minis but again it surely looks like they are going into extremes to make people rebase all their armies, I wonder why?
I see what you guys are saying and to an extent does make sense, maybe its just me not understanding how saving money on bases you risk destroying decades of WFB armies. Visually Lotr basing system looks pants too.
Replying to 3:1 ration, its different to have 3 blocks of 50 gobbos than 3 blocks of 10, even if other armies have less. I also collect other systems armies and skirmish so the main reason I do WFB is the overall look of the army, being gobbos an extreme example of that. WFB main difference of most other systems is the sheer size of the armies, you lose that and there is not much more that makes WFB visually unique... maybe the superhumans will change that.
The whole point of a move to skirmish would be to reduce model count and therefore player buy-in cost. So yes; obviously you wouldn't have mass hordes of goblins or skaven, they're the reason for this drastic change.
Does GW not realise that it's ruining its own game(s)?
Warhammer 8th edition requires huge numbers of models to play at a standard points limit. Simultaneous to this change, GW has been cutting the sizes of their plastic kits. Further to that, with End times, we've seen the release of a series of 80-130 dollar kits. I don't play 40k, but I'm aware of the cost of all the new fliers, plus the promotion of power-creep dataslates that require large numbers of models.
As someone who is still in the hobby at what might be best described as a casual level, I have to ask, who is buying this stuff other than adults with tons of disposable income?
Even accounting for inflation, the income I earned working while in high school 15 years ago would not have supported the kind of knee jerk buying GW has moved towards.
When I started playing in 5th edition, WFB had a very large following where I live. Over the years, with the creep in editions and prices, that base has all but disappeared. Moving to a defensible IP and killing existing armies won't change anything. Cutting the cost of play might, but not if you're turning away your existing players.
Chaos is as GW as .... square bases for fantasy Also ... they look set to win!
This seems to imply Harry thinks square bases are staying (along with chaos).
I think this is right. GW intentionally makes their games incompatible (scale for LOTR, bases for fantasy). There's no way they'll decide to let daemon players use their models in both systems by standardizing bases. I think the round base thing is a complete hoax, and the rumor mongers parroting it are going to be caught in a lie.
The head of the company publicly boasted last year in the yearly report to investors that they don't ask their customers what they want. IF they're ruining the game, they probably don't realize it.
Because Mordheim does not scale. I think 9th will be based on their most popular and commercially successful ruleset that scales from 6 vs. 6 to 1000 vs. 1000. LotR + WotR.
They need something that is flexible enough to take on games like Mantic's Dwarf's Hold that offer a RPG light miniature based story driven game in a box AND scale up to mass-battles. PLUS allow campaign / scenario based add-ons.
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NAVARRO wrote: I do not see why skirmish cannot be played with square bases. A smart move would be that the rules can accommodate both types and not just one...
I suspect that is exactly what will happen. There are plenty of games that do NOT specify base sizes and you see players using both. What I think will happen is - GW will ONLY offer certain types of bases with their models. Those will be round and in 'unique' sizes like 32mm. People will assume that is the 'standard' and argue when it's not. Yet, it's not a big deal in others system. Frequently, historical mass-battle systems do not specify base sizes, but minimum and maximum frontages letting the player do whatever they want inside those parameters.
The problems with Fantasy are GW's fault, and their solution will simply push more people to KoW.
9th is not for previous or current WFB (mass-battle) players or for those who play KoW. It's for all of the people who stopped playing LotR, for the people who are playing Dwarf's Hold / Zombicide / Sedition War's / etc., for people who dislike the WMH fluff but want a game like that, and for people who play Pathfinders and miniature based dungeon crawlers. The ex-LotR players are probably triple the WFB players...and adding in the other groups is one big market.
GW does not want KoW players as they would expect less-expensive products in mass sets. That is not where GW thinks the money is nor are they able to effectively compete there.
And as for whether or not they can write a Skirmish game, look at LotR, Necromunda and Mordhiem.
While I agree with this point (LotR has a superb ruleset!), keep in mind that those were written by old GW. Ever since GW's change, their rules have gotten increasingly lackluster and progressibly worse, recently culminating in 40k 7th.
For the same reason the rest of the GW range sells; the rules are perfectly servicable, and the greater availability means you're far more likely to get a game.
And as for whether or not they can write a Skirmish game, look at LotR, Necromunda and Mordhiem.
And how are sales for those ranges doing?.......yeah.
LotR doubled the size of the company in roughly 4 years. It has taken 40k 12-15 to achieve the same revenue. And WFB will never come close.
Wouldnt GWs margins WIDEN if it kept it as mass battle? If you take limited edition models combined with skirmish game style it seems that their margin would become more narrow? Especially considering 3rd party suppliers could easily encroach on their IPs a la Kromlek, CHS, etc like they did with for 40k. Not to mention the 3d printers (Shapeways) catching up with the limited edition releases to counts as. Proxies will abound without the Gestapo Workshop enforcing GW only models a tourneys. If they are a "collectable miniatures company" and not a game company, skirmish would be a kick in crotch for selling Minis. Right?
Sigvatr wrote: Yeah...well...skirmish has another problem, though: it doesn't work with some armies. Goblins and Skaven, for example, don't work in a skirmish game. Huge numbers of models is what makes those armies.
Skaven had a crew in Mordheim though. Im pretty sure some people made homebrew goblin gangs too.
The hard thing to add would more likely be heavy stuf like chaos warriors.
Edit: They would have to release som awesome ruins and open houses for scenery though. Huzza!
Skaven were part of the core rules in Mordheim, and had the largest possible starting gang. Very solid, and well-balanced gang.
At some point, there were official Town Cryer rules for Orcs in Mordheim.
Chaos Warriors in Mordheim? If you want a 3-person warband, maybe...
GW could re-release the Mordheim buildings at any time. But not gonna happen, because, GW is moving to all-plastic.
Sigvatr wrote: I wonder...if GW releases a Skirmish game, why would anyone want to play it? GW rules are poorly done and if you want a proper Skirmish game, just go for WM/H.
For the same reason the rest of the GW range sells; the rules are perfectly servicable, and the greater availability means you're far more likely to get a game.
And as for whether or not they can write a Skirmish game, look at LotR, Necromunda and Mordhiem.
And how are sales for those ranges doing?.......yeah.
The question was, can GW write proper skirmish rules? And to answer, all three of those systems are excellent skirmish rulesets (if a bit dated in the cases of Necromunda and Mordheim). The sales, or lack thereof, of all those systems have more to do with GW's mismanagement than anything else. So save your cheap shots for someplace that makes sense.
You and I differ in opinion then, obviously, because if they mismanaged those other franchises, what makes you think this time will be different? You can make a rules-set that choirs of angels descend from heaven and sing gospels to but if you don't do anything to ensure people stay around to actually play it, the end result is the same as the non-support the other lines received. My comment was hardly a "cheap shot", rather it was extremely appropriate and indicative of how incapable GW has proven themselves to be when it comes to marketing their own products.
I still think this whole thing is a bit odd. Invalidating huge swathes of existing product will just alienate people and actually force them out from under the GW umbrella and into the loving arms of companies like Mantic (though I personally dislike them) who currently don't care what models you use their rules with.
For the same reason the rest of the GW range sells; the rules are perfectly servicable, and the greater availability means you're far more likely to get a game.
And as for whether or not they can write a Skirmish game, look at LotR, Necromunda and Mordhiem.
And how are sales for those ranges doing?.......yeah.
LotR doubled the size of the company in roughly 4 years. It has taken 40k 12-15 to achieve the same revenue. And WFB will never come close.
The problem here is "what have you done for me lately?"; by all accounts LotR is only currently supported at all due to licensing requirements.
doktor_g wrote: Wouldnt GWs margins WIDEN if it kept it as mass battle?
Current thinking seems to suggest that the absolutely ridiculous amount of miniatures you need for a mass battle is what has all but bought the uptake of WF to a standstill. Plus GW now has to compete with Kings of War, a remarkably robust and versatile rule set that doesn't demand adherence to one manufacturers product.
doktor_g wrote: If you take limited edition models combined with skirmish game style it seems that their margin would become more narrow?
WF isn't selling anyway. It would be very difficult for their margin to shrink much more without abandoning WF altogether. A quick look at Mantic or the Perry brothers shows just how much plastic man-doll fun your money will get you if you are after quantity (and in the case of the Perrys, quality too).
Skirmish games on the other hand are definitely trendy at the moment. A starter pack for Infinity is about £25 for six figures. A single normal unit for X-Wing is about £10. People seem to be happy to pay extra for miniatures if they deem they are getting value.
doktor_g wrote: Especially considering 3rd party suppliers could easily encroach on their IPs a la Kromlek, CHS, etc like they did with for 40k. Not to mention the 3d printers (Shapeways) catching up with the limited edition releases to counts as. Proxies will abound without the Gestapo Workshop enforcing GW only models a tourneys. If they are a "collectable miniatures company" and not a game company, skirmish would be a kick in crotch for selling Minis. Right?
If the rumors on the front page of this thread are true, then there will be a lot more limited runs of miniatures. Aside from the core units of the game, limited runs would need less durable moulds, money saved. Regularly releasing new shiny things gets the veteran hobbyists buying in the same way that other truly collectable games do, money earned.
If GW plans to only sell limited batches of units then all of a sudden re-casters and proxies no longer matter - by the time re-casters have made copies, or independents have sculpted proxies, GW have already sold all their stock of that batch and have moved onto the next thing. Recognising they can't do much to protect their IP from their competitors, they make those competitors irrelevant by creating a moving target instead of their traditional fortress model.
(take all of what I've just said with good humour - I'm just playing a little Devil's advocate. For any of what I've just written to make sense GW would require a huge change in their business model and attitude)
GW has indeed moved to a premium, limited edition model. Gamers have clearly demonstrated a willingness to pay premium prices for a fancier hardcover and slipcover. or a special bonus mini. Same at Forgeworld. These things sell out quickly - just look at the End Times limited editions for Fantasy. And the huge expensive kits? Bought like they're going out of style.
While the Internet says they want lower prices, their wallet demonstrates a nearly unlimited thirst for exclusive, expensive items. As Knight Titans and End Times shows, this trend is accelerating. And it is unquestionably driven by veterans adding a centerpiece to their armies.
As long as customers support the super-premium model, GW will continue to push it.
Having just read the harry / autumn leaves quotes (i either missed it at the time or just didn't care to pay attention i guess), i came away with the following:
1 - fantasy makes up 8% of sales
2 - fantasy (and presumably 40k) are targeted at pre-teens
3 - prices will stay the same or increase
The game is going to change, this goes without saying. I'm not seeing anything that indicates the game is going to *improve*, however. And as far as sales go, i'm not sure how the 'problems' gw had with mordheim in that respect are going to be any different this time around. Instead of the 'inadequate' sales being thought to 'cannibalize' sales from fantasy, the inadequate sales will be fantasy.
JohnHwangDD wrote: GW has indeed moved to a premium, limited edition model. Gamers have clearly demonstrated a willingness to pay premium prices for a fancier hardcover and slipcover. or a special bonus mini. Same at Forgeworld. These things sell out quickly - just look at the End Times limited editions for Fantasy. And the huge expensive kits? Bought like they're going out of style.
While the Internet says they want lower prices, their wallet demonstrates a nearly unlimited thirst for exclusive, expensive items. As Knight Titans and End Times shows, this trend is accelerating. And it is unquestionably driven by veterans adding a centerpiece to their armies.
As long as customers support the super-premium model, GW will continue to push it.
I am as spendy as hobbyists and 40k enthusiasts get, I think, and I still can't fathom why anyone would spend $200 for a book... or at least, enough someones that it's sold out in 5 minutes >.<
Incidentally, my FLGS gets usually gets one or two of the fancy hardcovers, and they sit on the shelves for the whole year (or longer) without being sold. Eventually, on boxing day, it will get put up for half price (or some other great discount), and then I scoop it up This is how I got a couple of mine, hehehe. I was even able to sell my normal edition ones for full price, minus sales tax.
Herzlos wrote: The proxies won't be irrelevant, but they'll be the only way to get the minis later. It's no longer stolen sales though if gw has moved on.
Unless the future lines compete with previous lines. There's only so many variations on a theme that can be played out:
first wave: elves with heavy armour and greatsword
....
....
twelfth wave: elves with heavy armour and greatsword and hand crossbow
.....
.....
twenty-second wave: elves with heavy armour and greatsword and longbow
At some point, the models are going to start overlapping. In this scenario the recasters and anyone selling hand crossbow or longbow bits stand to compete with the 'new' waves. Especially if the first wave elves are considered to look better.
Herzlos wrote: The proxies won't be irrelevant, but they'll be the only way to get the minis later. It's no longer stolen sales though if gw has moved on.
We're saying the same thing. What I meant by irrelevant to GW you put better as "no longer stolen sales". This is after all the same GW that considered sales of Mordheim products to be sales stolen from WF products.
Rather bizarrely, this would be the first business move in a long time that would actually benefit the third party manufacturers! Imagine the irony of that. It's part of the reason I find it so difficult to believe - it requires a total volte face on GW's behalf.
Torga_DW wrote: Unless the future lines compete with previous lines. There's only so many variations on a theme that can be played out.
By that logic Magic the Gathering should have been history at least fifteen years ago.
Torga_DW wrote: At some point, the models are going to start overlapping. In this scenario the recasters and anyone selling hand crossbow or longbow bits stand to compete with the 'new' waves. Especially if the first wave elves are considered to look better.
Similarly, if all gamers were concerned themselves with when looking at newly released miniatures is whether or not a miniature is already available which fills the role, then very few miniatures need ever be released again. You'd be very hard pushed to have an idea you would like to see in miniature form and not be able to acquire a proxie already. Yet every year, scores of manufacturers release uncounted new sculpts for us to drool over and the miniatures / wargaming scene is rude health.
NAVARRO wrote: Really confused about the bases. If infantry goes into circular bases and then movement trays are created why not just keep the square bases as they are in the first place? I do not see why skirmish cannot be played with square bases.
As Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote above your post, and it's not something that I had thought of up until he mentioned it, but going to round bases is a cost cutting measure. They no longer have to support two different styles of base, and can stop making movement trays.
So really this is about cost cutting, and never about the good of the game.
But for stacking the minis into regiments they would probably use LOTR style of movement trays? Also why did they create a new bigger size for 40k, that goes against cost cutting right? Looks better on some 40k minis but again it surely looks like they are going into extremes to make people rebase all their armies, I wonder why?
I see what you guys are saying and to an extent does make sense, maybe its just me not understanding how saving money on bases you risk destroying decades of WFB armies. Visually Lotr basing system looks pants too.
Replying to 3:1 ration, its different to have 3 blocks of 50 gobbos than 3 blocks of 10, even if other armies have less. I also collect other systems armies and skirmish so the main reason I do WFB is the overall look of the army, being gobbos an extreme example of that. WFB main difference of most other systems is the sheer size of the armies, you lose that and there is not much more that makes WFB visually unique... maybe the superhumans will change that.
But you're not destroying decades of warhammer armies if you're GW. Look at this way. If you're GW, you don't care if somebody has been buying minis from the 1990s - you've got their money. What they do with the figures after that is not a factor. They could stick them up their noses for all GW care. Coca cola sell millions of tins every year, but would the coca cola bosses care if nobody drank the stuff, or poured it down the drain? Of Course not, as long as they get the money.
From a rational business sense, it's mad, because you want customers coming back. But that's not GW's model. GW don't care for veterans - all they do is moan , switch to other systems, and as I've said, they've got more than enough figures anyway.
GW's model is reliant on kids persuading mums to throw down 200 dollars/pounds/Euros etc in one go and it's reliant on die hards spending money every month. People moan about every new edition, but most of them still buy it anyway.
Of course, I could be wrong.
I know they do not care about vets and I dont think your wrong in that respect either , I'm surprised about the total reboot of one of their 3 big games. I dont think I have seen such a radical change at GW before. Lets face it armies take years to flesh out and the last thing you need is changes of this magnitude. Im not sure about the vets not spending money either ( how can a company have the database of such a thing?)
With that said…8% really? Wow and ouch!
H.B.M.C. wrote:
NAVARRO wrote: Also why did they create a new bigger size for 40k, that goes against cost cutting right?
Preparing for the variety of Fantasy miniatures (and they're likely phasing out the old ones). Plus there's also the Chapterhouse of it all. Everyone and their dog makes regular bases, so of course GW would pick a new size that no one uses to replace the old one.
I know you think that GW is clueless about how in fact that would be a boost in sales for those base manufacturers, they would adjust faster than GW and would actually supply full decorated base sets, unlike GW. I hope they are a bit less clueless than that though?
Chaos is as GW as .... square bases for fantasy Also ... they look set to win!
This seems to imply Harry thinks square bases are staying (along with chaos).
I think this is right. GW intentionally makes their games incompatible (scale for LOTR, bases for fantasy). There's no way they'll decide to let daemon players use their models in both systems by standardizing bases. I think the round base thing is a complete hoax, and the rumor mongers parroting it are going to be caught in a lie.
I hope so! I really think circular bases are unecessary, they only add frustation and look very wrong in formations.
Just a few thoughts that may have already been covered but I will throw them in the ring anyway. Firstly on the sales side of things as far as I can tell the end times stuff has sold out/sold well for the most part so surely this indicates there is a robust community that suffers from a lack of releases rather than no community at all. I mean up until recently there were 4 factions that hadn't been updated in a long, long time. As far the business side of things I can only think that this has been looked at 1 of 3 ways either A) this skirmish version/new version will please old customers and at the same time make it accessible to new customers B) it will be a far far superior game and will attract as many and more new players as it lost from annoying all the old customers or C) they are doing a Dreadfleet. I am totally torn on the subject personally as the system needs updating but at the same time whilst cutting the range may reduce costs it WILL lose them paying customers and variety which other company's are striving to acheive, it's a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Torga_DW wrote: Unless the future lines compete with previous lines. There's only so many variations on a theme that can be played out.
By that logic Magic the Gathering should have been history at least fifteen years ago.
Magic is a radically different game & design though. Magic can copyright their cards so that other companies can't reproduce them. Games workshop can't copyright miniatures of an elf with heavy armour and a great weapon.
Torga_DW wrote: At some point, the models are going to start overlapping. In this scenario the recasters and anyone selling hand crossbow or longbow bits stand to compete with the 'new' waves. Especially if the first wave elves are considered to look better.
Similarly, if all gamers were concerned themselves with when looking at newly released miniatures is whether or not a miniature is already available which fills the role, then very few miniatures need ever be released again. You'd be very hard pushed to have an idea you would like to see in miniature form and not be able to acquire a proxie already. Yet every year, scores of manufacturers release uncounted new sculpts for us to drool over and the miniatures / wargaming scene is rude health.
Games workshop isn't scores of manufacturers. It's one manufacturer. The scores of manufacturers will still remain a threat to their sales. Yes, some people will buy the new models. Some people won't. I don't see how this plan will encourage more of the former over the latter.
And as for whether or not they can write a Skirmish game, look at LotR, Necromunda and Mordhiem.
While I agree with this point (LotR has a superb ruleset!), keep in mind that those were written by old GW. Ever since GW's change, their rules have gotten increasingly lackluster and progressibly worse, recently culminating in 40k 7th.
7th is a way better ruleset than 6th, so I'd say they're improving.
And as for whether or not they can write a Skirmish game, look at LotR, Necromunda and Mordhiem.
While I agree with this point (LotR has a superb ruleset!), keep in mind that those were written by old GW. Ever since GW's change, their rules have gotten increasingly lackluster and progressibly worse, recently culminating in 40k 7th.
JohnHwangDD wrote: GW has indeed moved to a premium, limited edition model. Gamers have clearly demonstrated a willingness to pay premium prices for a fancier hardcover and slipcover. or a special bonus mini. Same at Forgeworld. These things sell out quickly - just look at the End Times limited editions for Fantasy. And the huge expensive kits? Bought like they're going out of style.
While the Internet says they want lower prices, their wallet demonstrates a nearly unlimited thirst for exclusive, expensive items. As Knight Titans and End Times shows, this trend is accelerating. And it is unquestionably driven by veterans adding a centerpiece to their armies.
As long as customers support the super-premium model, GW will continue to push it.
I don't think their year over year financials support your anecdotal observation being extrapolated so much. Is there a previously untapped market of both collectors and speculators who gobble up anything GW declares as limited regardless of price? Absolutely. Is GW selling less units overall? From their stockholder reports, yes. They're milking more and more the minority of their most productive cows but their figurative herd overall is waning so to speak. This, of course, doesn't exclude them continuing to marginalize themselves and their customers into an ever smaller niche.
The whole point of selling the rules in the box with the models is specifically to box out 3rd party competitors. That's a big part of why this could help with revenues
The other way is by lowering the barrier to entry, hooking more players and selling them a few limited release models on a regular schedule. As is, for the majority of players especially younger players, I imagine it's christmas and birthdays and not much in between.
I'm surprised so many people saying Fantasy is dead. It's still more popular than a lot of other games even if it's not as popular as it once was. Also... it's really only declined this past edition. I'm sure it's regional, but there was a strong thriving Fantasy community around here until 8th.
If this is truly a 40k scale skirmish replacement for WHFB and not just a side game then I think GW have lost their marbles. The appeal of WHFB has always been that it's been regimental combat, and it's always been a better game at it's core than 40k.
People don't play 40k because it's an awesome game, they play it because of the background and because it has a large established community. Warhammer skirmish will not have the same support, it's going to piss off basically everyone who already collects it so they're going to establish themselves as a new game from scratch? I honestly don't see it going well, I see it being the end of Fantasy altogether. GW haven't written a good set of rules for years I don't trust them to do it now and even if they do pull it off I don't think Fantasy Skirmish is going to do well enough to be a main game and with the dropping of The Hobbit GW will be relegated only 1 game being their source of income, they can rename themselves "Game Workshop".
Thrown in with GW's declining sales despite pushing a high rate of new releases in their flagship, 40k, this really is starting to feel like the end times not just for WHFB but for GW and it seems like they're intent on fething up their games before they go just in case anyone wanted to buy them out and reboot them will have to start from rubble.
TheSilo wrote: The whole point of selling the rules in the box with the models is specifically to box out 3rd party competitors. That's a big part of why this could help with revenues
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I'm surprised so many people saying Fantasy is dead. It's still more popular than a lot of other games even if it's not as popular as it once was. Also... it's really only declined this past edition. I'm sure it's regional, but there was a strong thriving Fantasy community around here until 8th.
If this is truly a 40k scale skirmish replacement for WHFB and not just a side game then I think GW have lost their marbles. The appeal of WHFB has always been that it's been regimental combat, and it's always been a better game at it's core than 40k.
Given the cost/revenue of WFB I don't think they're much interested in what makes WFB appealing anymore.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: If this is truly a 40k scale skirmish replacement for WHFB and not just a side game then I think GW have lost their marbles. The appeal of WHFB has always been that it's been regimental combat, and it's always been a better game at it's core than 40k.
But I don't think the rumors are pointing to it being a dedicated skirmish game so much as a new edition that scales down to skirmish play better (probably by allowing all units to skirmish). That long batch of rumors mentioned that there are significant bonuses for ranked units (probably similar to now). That suggests larger battles.
So no, I don't think it's a "side game" nor a "skirmish replacement for WFB," but a new edition of WFB that's more "low points skirmish-friendly."
AllSeeingSkink wrote: GW haven't written a good set of rules for years I don't trust them to do it now and even if they do pull it off I don't think Fantasy Skirmish is going to do well enough to be a main game and with the dropping of The Hobbit GW will be relegated only 1 game being their source of income, they can rename themselves "Game Workshop".
Games Workshop re-hired one of the fellas who worked on rules for Mantic a few months (a year?) ago so this might well be what he was hired (poached?) for. Though I'm yet to try them myself, everyone seems to sing the praises of Dread Ball and Kings of War which he was one of the leading writers for iirc.
I can't recall his name but he appeared on Beasts of War a lot as a Mantic spokes person.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: If this is truly a 40k scale skirmish replacement for WHFB and not just a side game then I think GW have lost their marbles. The appeal of WHFB has always been that it's been regimental combat, and it's always been a better game at it's core than 40k.
But I don't think the rumors are pointing to it being a dedicated skirmish game so much as a new edition that scales down to skirmish play better (probably by allowing all units to skirmish). That long batch of rumors mentioned that there are significant bonuses for ranked units (probably similar to now). That suggests larger battles.
So no, I don't think it's a "side game" nor a "skirmish replacement for WFB," but a new edition of WFB that's more "low points skirmish-friendly."
It'll be interesting to see how it gets handled in white dwarf: I always hear how players are the ones responsible for high point games, and how the game can be played at low points. But when i used to read white dwarf (before the split), the battle reports were always high point games.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I'm surprised so many people saying Fantasy is dead. It's still more popular than a lot of other games even if it's not as popular as it once was. Also... it's really only declined this past edition. I'm sure it's regional, but there was a strong thriving Fantasy community around here until 8th.
If this is truly a 40k scale skirmish replacement for WHFB and not just a side game then I think GW have lost their marbles. The appeal of WHFB has always been that it's been regimental combat, and it's always been a better game at it's core than 40k.
Given the cost/revenue of WFB I don't think they're much interested in what makes WFB appealing anymore.
Do we even know what the cost/revenue of warhammer is and has been over the years?
AllSeeingSkink wrote: If this is truly a 40k scale skirmish replacement for WHFB and not just a side game then I think GW have lost their marbles. The appeal of WHFB has always been that it's been regimental combat, and it's always been a better game at it's core than 40k.
But I don't think the rumors are pointing to it being a dedicated skirmish game so much as a new edition that scales down to skirmish play better (probably by allowing all units to skirmish). That long batch of rumors mentioned that there are significant bonuses for ranked units (probably similar to now). That suggests larger battles.
So no, I don't think it's a "side game" nor a "skirmish replacement for WFB," but a new edition of WFB that's more "low points skirmish-friendly."
Maybe, maybe I'm being too pessimistic. But GW haven't done anything positive for me in years, the last thing of note they did was kill specialist games while I was half way through an Aeronautica force
Maybe they'll actually do something cool with WHFB that doesn't completely feth up existing players, but the rumours thus far have me more concerned than anything else. My WHFB armies have been sitting on the shelf since 7th, I'm eagerly awaiting what GW does to either put them back on the table or finish their journey to the bin
I'm wary of skirmish games in general because I don't find them overly entertaining.
2 - fantasy (and presumably 40k) are targeted at pre-teens
That's nonsense. They're clearly targeted at a dwindling number of vets. If there were targeted at pre-teens, GW wouldn't be releasing new, often limited edition, product every month and dredging up concepts from the 90s that only nostalgic grognards can appreciate.
What I meant to say was that GW isn't interested in keeping the WFB status quo (i.e. what's made it appealing in the past). They have much more interest in emulating the success of LotR than in perpetuating a product line that is as expensive and expansive as 40k but with much lower sales.
Back in 3rd edition of 40k, there was always the allure of a large scale battle, and it was fun once in a while. But like in books and movies and tabletop, those make for grand spectacles but they're rarely fun or balanced or very interesting after multiple tries. They've been pushing for bigger and badder releases and battles in 40k and fantasy, much to my chagrin. But while this seems to be attractive to 40k players, WFB seems to have topped out.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: GW haven't written a good set of rules for years I don't trust them to do it now and even if they do pull it off I don't think Fantasy Skirmish is going to do well enough to be a main game and with the dropping of The Hobbit GW will be relegated only 1 game being their source of income, they can rename themselves "Game Workshop".
Games Workshop re-hired one of the fellas who worked on rules for Mantic a few months (a year?) ago so this might well be what he was hired (poached?) for. Though I'm yet to try them myself, everyone seems to sing the praises of Dread Ball and Kings of War which he was one of the leading writers for iirc.
I can't recall his name but he appeared on Beasts of War a lot as a Mantic spokes person.
James Hewitt... and he actually wasn't a Mantic rules/design guy. He was my editor on the Deadzone fluff (for most of its development), and was a Community Manager.
Da Boss wrote:Kings of War is successful for Mantic despite being a mass battle fantasy game.
Or even 'because'.
jorny wrote:Well, this at least makes thedecision wheter or not I should start playing Kings of War easier for me. Have to do something of my WHFB armies.
Don't forget there's Mayhem and Legions of Battle too.
Paradigm wrote:For the same reason the rest of the GW range sells; the rules are perfectly servicable, and the greater availability means you're far more likely to get a game.
Like the man said, less and less true.
Sheck2 wrote:Because Mordheim does not scale. I think 9th will be based on their most popular and commercially successful ruleset that scales from 6 vs. 6 to 1000 vs. 1000. LotR + WotR.
To me, this is like saying 'Warhammer (Mordheim + Warmaster)' scales to any size. The game that scales perfectly from anything to small skirmishes to huge battles is a bit of a myth, especially if expected from GW.*
On that note, it seems to me that GW have almost done to Warhammer what they did with 40K: dumped the purpose-built large battle game (Epic, Warmaster) and tried to inflate the mid-size game to create the same kind of spectacle. (Apocalypse, hordes etc.) Well, really to claw even more money, but ostensibly to create the same kind of spectacle. Problem is they forgot or ignored the fact that there was much more than spectacle to those old SGs.
They already had great interlinked systems to represent battles at different scales in the same universes with the same armies. Crying shame that they didn't really care.
(Cue complaints that Epic and WM had the effrontery to be different miniature scales, that you didn't dare divert some of the roaring stream of cash that went into your 40K/FB armies to start them, or that nobody in your gaming group had the cojones to look at something a mite different...)
9th is not for previous or current WFB (mass-battle) players or for those who play KoW. It's for all of the people who stopped playing LotR... The ex-LotR players are probably triple the WFB players
But how many of those LotR players jumped on LotR because the rules were great as opposed to jumping on LotR because it was movie merchandise? How many stuck around after? (I believe there's a saying about bubbles that gets trotted out at these points) How many who wanted to play games of toy soldiers with Strider and Frodo vs. orcs and ringwraiths in Middle-Earth will come flocking back to post-apoc Warppunkhammer?
Sheck2 wrote:LotR doubled the size of the company in roughly 4 years.
Again, cinema hype might've helped.
Henry wrote:Current thinking seems to suggest that the absolutely ridiculous amount of miniatures you need for a mass battle is what has all but bought the uptake of WF to a standstill.
Not the absolutely ridiculous amount of miniatures, but as you touched upon, the absolutely ridiculous amount of money you need for the absolutely ridiculous amount of miniatures.
Some mass battle rules are much more fit for purpose than Warhammer but also get by with fewer minis at a playable size. Probably because figure scale is more apparent, and not held back by that ol' casualty removal malarkey. I.e. Archaon isn't really razing the northern provinces of the Empire with just 10-12 Chaos knights at his back. It's a representation of a (much) larger group, regiment, battalion, what have you. When other mass battle games focus on standards of frontage, unit footprints, or stands, the required number of minis per unit often veers away from 'X number of wound markers' (AKA 'this is how many men/orcs/ratmen are actually in the battle', and where X is always increasing) and more towards 'what'll fit on the stand' or 'as many as looks good to you'.
JohnHwangDD wrote:GW has indeed moved to a premium, limited edition model. Gamers have clearly demonstrated a willingness to pay premium prices for a fancier hardcover and slipcover. or a special bonus mini. Same at Forgeworld. These things sell out quickly - just look at the End Times limited editions for Fantasy. And the huge expensive kits? Bought like they're going out of style.
While the Internet says they want lower prices, their wallet demonstrates a nearly unlimited thirst for exclusive, expensive items. As Knight Titans and End Times shows, this trend is accelerating. And it is unquestionably driven by veterans adding a centerpiece to their armies.
As long as customers support the super-premium model, GW will continue to push it.
Some gamers. Some customers. Enough gamers and customers? I'm not qualified to say, but I'll be interested to see the reports in a few days.
Herzlos wrote:The proxies won't be irrelevant, but they'll be the only way to get the minis later. It's no longer stolen sales though if gw has moved on.
Yarp!
daemonish wrote: Firstly on the sales side of things as far as I can tell the end times stuff has sold out/sold well for the most part so surely this indicates there is a robust community that suffers from a lack of releases rather than no community at all.
Said it before: GW's business has warped their gaming culture over the years, to the point that gamers are convinced 'support' means 'change for change's sake' and 'new stuff to buy'. (Alan Merrett was right!) Not to say improvements to old models are a bad thing (I'm eternally grateful to Seb Perbett), or that no other company brings out a newer or better mini or editions with rules fixes, but GW seemed to have honed and transformed the concept into a fine moneyspinner, and honed their audience to expect it. Even rely on it.
TheSilo wrote:The whole point of selling the rules in the box with the models is specifically to box out 3rd party competitors.
Ah, well. It's a good thing that 'rules' and 'minis' are not the same thing, then. I can imagine there would be some road bumps if I tried to bring out some overmuscled cyborg rat monsters, but knowing the specific Warhammer rules for Stormfiends ain't one.
Back in 3rd edition of 40k, there was always the allure of a large scale battle, and it was fun once in a while. But like in books and movies and tabletop, those make for grand spectacles but they're rarely fun or balanced or very interesting after multiple tries. They've been pushing for bigger and badder releases and battles in 40k and fantasy, much to my chagrin. But while this seems to be attractive to 40k players, WFB seems to have topped out.
NAVARRO wrote: I know you think that GW is clueless about how in fact that would be a boost in sales for those base manufacturers, they would adjust faster than GW and would actually supply full decorated base sets, unlike GW. I hope they are a bit less clueless than that though?
Of course base manufacturers would adjust their sizes, but for GW it's a "first to market" thing. It's the same reason we've seen asinine name changes for things like the Guard or Storm Troopers.
2 - fantasy (and presumably 40k) are targeted at pre-teens
That's nonsense. They're clearly targeted at a dwindling number of vets. If there were targeted at pre-teens, GW wouldn't be releasing new, often limited edition, product every month and dredging up concepts from the 90s that only nostalgic grognards can appreciate.
And what preteen has the hundreds upon hundreds of dollars to spend on this game?
Well their parents have a few to get them started, until they lose interest, and then GW has to snag a few more wide-eyed youths before they hit puberty.
You might also say that - compared to an impression of some kind of Santa-Claus-like generosity and camaraderie - the constant new releases are a TSR-like sign of desperation, and that old '90's concepts are a sign they don't really have anything new and are, well, still desperate. What's the best alternative to revisited knights - Centurions? Shoebox aircraft?
I told myself I wasn't going to say anything, vets, but GW doesn't love you. He's just using you.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: GW haven't written a good set of rules for years I don't trust them to do it now and even if they do pull it off I don't think Fantasy Skirmish is going to do well enough to be a main game and with the dropping of The Hobbit GW will be relegated only 1 game being their source of income, they can rename themselves "Game Workshop".
Games Workshop re-hired one of the fellas who worked on rules for Mantic a few months (a year?) ago so this might well be what he was hired (poached?) for. Though I'm yet to try them myself, everyone seems to sing the praises of Dread Ball and Kings of War which he was one of the leading writers for iirc.
I can't recall his name but he appeared on Beasts of War a lot as a Mantic spokes person.
James Hewitt... and he actually wasn't a Mantic rules/design guy. He was my editor on the Deadzone fluff (for most of its development), and was a Community Manager.
Aye that's the fella. His Linkedin profile declares that he helped with rules writing at Mantic and is a current rules writer for Games Workshop.
2 - fantasy (and presumably 40k) are targeted at pre-teens
That's nonsense. They're clearly targeted at a dwindling number of vets. If there were targeted at pre-teens, GW wouldn't be releasing new, often limited edition, product every month and dredging up concepts from the 90s that only nostalgic grognards can appreciate.
And what preteen has the hundreds upon hundreds of dollars to spend on this game?
Very few, which is why they're having problems. Traditionally though, adults tend to have more disposable income than children, and the current system tends towards people who are willing to spend exorbitant amounts of money on the game. If they wanted to cater to the vets, they could have made the existing units workable and competitive instead of playing 2nd fiddle (or 3rd string) to the 'new hotness'. GW targeting children over adults seems to be a contentious issue to talk about, which i've always found strange since kirby himself is on record about it. But the part in autumn leaves' post that i took note of, specifically mentioned:
Autumn Leaves wrote:Can GW fix WFB under it's current format after years of decline in sales?
Possibly but the single biggest problem they have is to get profitability up they have to make it more appealing to the kids at the entrant level.
That would mean changing the format to bring it into line with the other two systems. Especially 40k.
Making it affordable.
Which on a similar note (pricing) says to me that they're expecting people to spend the same amount as normal during their churn & burn, but now will have a workable 'game' at that pricing. Assuming that the game can only be played in skirmish mode and not bigger-style, otherwise it'll end up where we're at now. But people say that warmahordes prices are more stomachable because they represent a greater proportion of an army. Now the same will (theoretically) hold true with games workshop. All without lowering any prices.
Vermis wrote:Well their parents have a few to get them started, until they lose interest, and then GW has to snag a few more wide-eyed youths before they hit puberty.
And now when timmy gets mom to buy him some warhammer, his dollars spent will get him a 'whole' army instead of just part of one. More units from a line (like elves) will be sold proportionately when sales happen. Lower the bar, and you'll succeed more often. Still doesn't fix any of the basic problems with the game, but the (dwindling) numbers will at least look better when presented in the right light.
Vermis wrote:You might also say that - compared to an impression of some kind of Santa-Claus-like generosity and camaraderie - the constant new releases are a TSR-like sign of desperation, and that old '90's concepts are a sign they don't really have anything new and are, well, still desperate. What's the best alternative to revisited knights - Centurions? Shoebox aircraft?
The irony is that the game is what, 30 years old? If they'd been spending their time trying to improve the game instead of reboot it constantly, they might not be in this situation. Why is there even a need to reboot the rules constantly when you expect your average customer to only collect for a short period of time?
Vermis wrote:I told myself I wasn't going to say anything, vets, but GW doesn't love you. He's just using you.
That's it. Let it out.
No way man, gw told me the game would change. You're lying! You've got to be!
Vermis wrote: Well their parents have a few to get them started, until they lose interest, and then GW has to snag a few more wide-eyed youths before they hit puberty.
I doubt I will ever lose intrest, but I rode it through to puberty, others havent been so loyal. The guy who got me intrested in the first place now doesn't play because he has to little time, and it's apparently too expensive.
(Even though he already has 2000 points of marines, and he could just sell his 3rd edition starter set for a butload of cash)
NAVARRO wrote: I know you think that GW is clueless about how in fact that would be a boost in sales for those base manufacturers, they would adjust faster than GW and would actually supply full decorated base sets, unlike GW. I hope they are a bit less clueless than that though?
Of course base manufacturers would adjust their sizes, but for GW it's a "first to market" thing. It's the same reason we've seen asinine name changes for things like the Guard or Storm Troopers.
But bases are pretty much the easiest thing to reshape/resize and retool, especially in resin. The resin manufacturers can likely get their existing base sets out in any new shape/size GW pre-releases, before the launch date.
Plastics might take a little bit longer to tool, but changing the CAD files is the work of minutes.
If they want to provide unique stuff for manufacturing supremacy, bases are the worst thing to muck with. If they want to change the base sizes to prevent people using the Citadel minis interchangably with other game systems, then changing base sizes is the easist approach (until, y'know, the MDF manufacturers launch shaped movement trays and adapters)
2 - fantasy (and presumably 40k) are targeted at pre-teens
That's nonsense. They're clearly targeted at a dwindling number of vets. If there were targeted at pre-teens, GW wouldn't be releasing new, often limited edition, product every month and dredging up concepts from the 90s that only nostalgic grognards can appreciate.
And what preteen has the hundreds upon hundreds of dollars to spend on this game?
Very few, which is why they're having problems. Traditionally though, adults tend to have more disposable income than children, and the current system tends towards people who are willing to spend exorbitant amounts of money on the game. If they wanted to cater to the vets, they could have made the existing units workable and competitive instead of playing 2nd fiddle (or 3rd string) to the 'new hotness'. GW targeting children over adults seems to be a contentious issue to talk about, which i've always found strange since kirby himself is on record about it.
A lot of the problems are simply because of the way larger games are encouraged these days. It would only take some minor variations to make small games playable with 5-15 models per regiment and 3-5 regiments per side with 1 or 2 heroes.
When I started WHFB (when I was ~10 years old) me and my mates mostly played 30 to 50 models per side (I had one of the largest armies that had a lot of Skinks from the boxed set at the time). I had games as low as 20 models I think. When the small scale rules came around (can't remember the name, Warbands? Skirmish?) we played even smaller games. It was fun and it worked. These days people are running around with 30 to 50 models in a single fething regiment and it simply seems like the done thing in your typical game now
NAVARRO wrote: I know you think that GW is clueless about how in fact that would be a boost in sales for those base manufacturers, they would adjust faster than GW and would actually supply full decorated base sets, unlike GW. I hope they are a bit less clueless than that though?
Of course base manufacturers would adjust their sizes, but for GW it's a "first to market" thing. It's the same reason we've seen asinine name changes for things like the Guard or Storm Troopers.
But bases are pretty much the easiest thing to reshape/resize and retool, especially in resin. The resin manufacturers can likely get their existing base sets out in any new shape/size GW pre-releases, before the launch date.
Plastics might take a little bit longer to tool, but changing the CAD files is the work of minutes.
If they want to provide unique stuff for manufacturing supremacy, bases are the worst thing to muck with. If they want to change the base sizes to prevent people using the Citadel minis interchangably with other game systems, then changing base sizes is the easist approach (until, y'know, the MDF manufacturers launch shaped movement trays and adapters)
Is H.B.M.C. suggesting that GW will try to protect the usage of certain sized discs as base for their miniatures? That would be interesting to see
Is H.B.M.C. suggesting that GW will try to protect the usage of certain sized discs as base for their miniatures? That would be interesting to see
I doubt it.
As many people pointed out
- 32mm is the exact same size, GW's small flying bases have been for a long time.
- 32mm is a close approximation of the exact middle between 25mm and 40mm
- 32mm is a close approximation of the exact half diameter of GW's 65mm bases.
It seems a logical size, if you want to add something at that rough range.
Also, none of the .. um Top 20 or 30 miniature games uses 30mm bevelled edge bases. If you're not fussed about using round-lipped "Warmachine-style-bases" in 40K, surely you wouldn't be too fussed about a single millimeter difference on either side of the miniature either, no?
I really don't get all that conspiracy stuff. Did anyone accuse Corvus Belli of trying to "trademark" base-sizes when they did 55mm bases instead of sticking to "established sizes"?
Surely, if manufacturers of resin bases find it profitable to do resin bases for 55mm bases, which are a rare base size in a still-much-smaller-than-40K miniatures game, they surely must be rubbing their hands at the prospect of selling Space Marine-fans everywhere new 32mm bases at a 50% to 100% higher prize than 25mm bases?
If GW would've wanted to cut-out third party manufacturers, they probably would've gone the "Mantic Game way" with bases fixed to the miniatures from the start (funny, again, how nobody claimed Mantic Games making it deliberately difficult for resin-base makers, when they went with this approach to bases).
Is H.B.M.C. suggesting that GW will try to protect the usage of certain sized discs as base for their miniatures? That would be interesting to see
I doubt it.
As many people pointed out
- 32mm is the exact same size, GW's small flying bases have been for a long time.
- 32mm is a close approximation of the exact middle between 25mm and 40mm
- 32mm is a close approximation of the exact half diameter of GW's 65mm bases.
It seems a logical size, if you want to add something at that rough range.
Also, none of the .. um Top 20 or 30 miniature games uses 30mm bevelled edge bases. If you're not fussed about using round-lipped "Warmachine-style-bases" in 40K, surely you wouldn't be too fussed about a single millimeter difference on either side of the miniature either, no?
I really don't get all that conspiracy stuff. Did anyone accuse Corvus Belli of trying to "trademark" base-sizes when they did 55mm bases instead of sticking to "established sizes"?
Surely, if manufacturers of resin bases find it profitable to do resin bases for 55mm bases, which are a rare base size in a still-much-smaller-than-40K miniatures game, they surely must be rubbing their hands at the prospect of selling Space Marine-fans everywhere new 32mm bases at a 50% to 100% higher prize than 25mm bases?
If GW would've wanted to cut-out third party manufacturers, they probably would've gone the "Mantic Game way" with bases fixed to the miniatures from the start (funny, again, how nobody claimed Mantic Games making it deliberately difficult for resin-base makers, when they went with this approach to bases).
GW's head of IP, Allen Merett, stated, in court, that GW "Really should have trademarked the whole 28mm scale when we had the chance"*.
If they think that that was possible, or that it would have been a good idea then this is less unbelievable than some people seem to think.
(*I probably didn't get the quote entirely accurate, I couldn't be bothered going and finding the exact wording.)
GW's head of IP, Allen Merett, stated, in court, that GW "Really should have trademarked the whole 28mm scale when we had the chance"*.
If they think that that was possible, or that it would have been a good idea then this is less unbelievable than some people seem to think.
(*I probably didn't get the quote entirely accurate, I couldn't be bothered going and finding the exact wording.)
Maybe? But if so, why
- did they say in that customer service letter that people don't need to rebase or use the new bases?
- why did they remove the "bases they are supplied with" and replaced it with a more forgiving "any base size used for roughly equivalent other models in the range" in 7th Edition (which would even allow you to base PA Marines on 40mm since Krom, if you really want to, as well as 25mm)?
Odd moves for a company allegedly trying to push out third-party base-makers.
The problem here is "what have you done for me lately?"; by all accounts LotR is only currently supported at all due to licensing requirements.
Quite right. My statement was in context to the popularity of that type of skirmish game. The lore drew them. but the mechanics and system kept them playing. That market segment is not like WFB or 40k and treating them the same way resulted in the sudden LotR crash.
NAVARRO wrote:I really don't get all that conspiracy stuff.
No conspiracy. It's good business practice. GW did not have historically good practice and mitigated that with aggressive cease and desist orders. That strategy seems to have failed as of late, so they are adopting better practices. Making everything unique is one of them.
I have a weird feeling that part of the reason for these changes (if true) is to do some damage to third party and competing companies - and will instead end up killing Fantasy off entirely.
'People are using Mantic Undead in Warhammer Fantasy! We must stop them! Quick! Change the bases!'
'People are using miniatures by those traitorous Perry brothers for their Empire armies! Quick! Destroy the Empire!'
It appears that the round bases seen on the plague furnace and screaming bell are confirmed with the WDW- I've kept the images in first post but I returned the thread title to the original name just in case the base change seen in the White Dwarf is some sort of aesthetic thing for the Skaven models (ala the 32mm bases in 40k).
I've also added chochky and Warhams-77's posts from additional rumor compilations on Warseer. Hopefully that should get everything up-to-date but if anyone sees any issues, let me know.
I added that little detail to the OP. However, I believe this is still the first use of a 40k-style base in WHFB- at least, to my knowledge there isn't a precedent for this in the past, correct?
Accolade wrote: I added that little detail to the OP. However, I believe this is still the first use of a 40k-style base in WHFB- at least, to my knowledge there isn't a precedent for this in the past, correct?
It's the first "re-based" miniature, I think, i.e. one that used to be on a square base and is now on a roundish one.
There've always been a few rare units that always were on round bases (e.g. Nightgoblin Fanatics, Mangler Squids, etc...).
Ahh, that's a good point Wonderwolf. I think with this in mind it was worth modifying the title to not include that bit, but I'll leave it in the OP as it could still be indicative of future happenings in WHFB. Regardless, we should know in about 2-3 months.
To be fair, though, those models were round-based because they could never be ranked up etc. I wish, though, that they had square bases, would make hitting stuff with Fanatics easier
Wasn't the Soulgrinder packaged with a large round base in its' repackage for warhammer fantasy? What about the giant spiders thing a while back? I'm fairly certain this isn't the first round base we've seen in fantasy.
And the giant spider is on the same base. As far as I know, the only round bases before now were Fanatics and the Mangler Squig. I can't think of any others (probably missed something though).
I think round bases on anything other than Night Goblin units (including the Mangler squigs) is a new precedent. I don't know if it's indicative or anything related to the rumors of the changes to 9th, but it is at least consistent with what others had been saying about round bases appearing in Fantasy.
TBH, the whole base topic with GW has gotten really strange lately. GW's response to the different bases seems to be down to aesthetics, but I feel like this is pushing forth the idea that GW isn't really interested in the gaming aspect of their model lines (since they can't be bothered with consistency).
Time will tell in a few months, but I personally think that round bases will be the direction they go with this purported reboot of Fantasy. It pushes square-based models somewhat more into redundancy, while GW can continue to say "base your models on whatever you feel like" to act like they aren't forcing players to change.
To prevent the next problem, the pic is cropped in the printed White Dwarf. The source of this image is the digital issue of White Dwarf Weekly.
Imo this picture is a teaser like the Warhammer 40k buildings shown in White Dwarf before their actual announcement and preorder
Accolade wrote: GW isn't really interested in the gaming aspect of their model lines
GW has repeately stated that they consider their games to be primarily for collecting, not playing.
Indeed they have but they can say that all they want. Their "collectors" tend to prefer playing and if they scorn the game side so GAMES-Workshop it'll bite em in the ass, hard.
Accolade wrote: GW isn't really interested in the gaming aspect of their model lines
GW has repeately stated that they consider their games to be primarily for collecting, not playing.
They are called Games Workshop. They sell their rulebooks for absurd amounts of money. The first thing they will try and sell you when you walk in the door is the starter set to play games.
The "we primarily make collectables not games" is just an excuse for poor rules and a pathetic attempt to make it seem like Chapterhouse were costing them money in that stupid court case.
Sigvatr wrote: Oh, you don't need to tell that to me, Skink. I'm out of the GW loop anyway.
Yeah, I still care too much I haven't played a game of WHFB in ages, my armies have barely left the shelf since 7th, but I want a reason to get back in to it not a reason to throw them all in a fire
I'd like to be optimistic about the rumored changes. Some of them could be great ideas for a supplemental game that works in conjunction with WHFB. However I have doubts about GW's ability to pull it off. I've spent some time thinking about those doubts and I've come to the conclusion that GW lacks understanding about the intangible parts of the gaming hobby. More specifically I think they lack understanding about our culture because there are fewer and fewer gamers in charge over there. There are certain things that a gaming company must have in order to appeal to the gamer community. The more of these items a company checks off, the more appeal they will have.
1) A great game with solid rules that are fun to play.
2) Great fluff that gets us excited to play. We sometimes joke about the fluff bunnies but most of us have a little fluff bunny in them.
3) Great Models that are a pleasure to assemble/paint.
4) Affordability.
5) Variety.
6) A healthy, developed community.
7) Ambassadors and other support to the community including our FLGS's.
8) Willingness to listen to and interact with the community.
All those items go together to create value. Like I said above, the more of those items that a company checks off the more successful they are likely to be as a gaming company because we percieve greater value. Focus on the above principles and with competent management the bottom line will follow. At some point GW started focusing on the bottom line first and that's where things went wrong. (I do have to emphasize competent management because without that you can end up in a defiance games situation).
The more I think about it, I don't think GW can recreate the value to woo back those of us who have jumped ship because they have demonstrated a lack of ability to address #1 in recent years. We've all seen games where it drags down to a halt because you're on a critical turn and there are multiple interpretations of the same pivotal rule. It has happened more in the GW games than any other system I've played and their FAQ's are often inadequate and outdated. #2 they've got, because they've had it for decades but now their talking about trashing the old fluff. #3 They can do if you can go for their aesthetic. In all honesty 'moar skullz' and barefoot state troopers irritates me to no end, but their sculptors have talent. We have all seen their willingness to flagrantly abandon #4. #5 they can do. #6 is debatable. As a community we are developed, but we are not healthy. Many of us are embittered and resentful by past treatment. Most of us harbor hope that this time it will be better, every time. It gets tiresome. Every visit to a FLGS shows fewer and fewer games of anything GW being played and less GW product on the shelf. #7 they've just abandoned. Finally, GW has made it evident for a decade that they don't care for #8 at all. Unless they are willing to address some of the points they've failed at in the past several years I'm pretty sure this new edition won't do what it needs to do for them.
If you compare them with other gaming companies that are on the same scale the rumors have them trying to toe into you see that the other companies create significantly more value: Warmahordes, Wild West Exodus, Malifaux, Infinity, etc. Those games all charge a premium for their product (and thus steer away from #4 to a degree) but we are okay with it because they all emphasize the other 7 aspects of gaming value.
I would love to be wrong. I would love to come back to WHFB. It was fun to resist the forces of Chaos with nothing but steel, gunpowder, and courage. Put bluntly, though, games workshop products lack value and I fear they can no longer execute well enough to restore that value with the rumored changes alone. Especially if they damage #2 which is one of the few aspects they still had going for them in the WHFB world.
I agree wholeheartedly with #8. I play Fantasy for large scale battles, I have Malifaux for skirmish games & WM/H if I ever get desperate. I wish GW was more open, I mean wyrd does a pretty much open beta test of everything and it works great as it shows transparency, trust & allows for user feedback.
GW currently has me dusting off my malifaux minis. My old hunks of metal malifaux minis lol.
Shas'O Dorian wrote: I agree wholeheartedly with #8. I play Fantasy for large scale battles, I have Malifaux for skirmish games & WM/H if I ever get desperate. I wish GW was more open, I mean wyrd does a pretty much open beta test of everything and it works great as it shows transparency, trust & allows for user feedback.
Agreed. I love the way that Malifaux approaches their release. I also like how Privateer handled the genesis of Mk2 - which was a totally open beta, EVERYONE gets to give feedback. Sure that was just for the system change into MK2, but you got to be heard and say your piece even if your thoughts weren't adopted.
I wish GW would stop with the all knowing hubris and communicate with their fanbase / customers. Then again it is a publicly traded company, so what do you expect from a souless corp who has a board to appease and shareholders to pay.
GW currently has me dusting off my malifaux minis. My old hunks of metal malifaux minis lol.
Hehe... i have a metal Leveticus crew lying around somewhere. =)
I'm as big a Fantasy fan as anyone and i dabble in 40k (more to scratch my buddies' sci-fi itch than anything, i could honestly take or leave the game). I had started dabbling in X-wing as a way to have a game to play with my son and to have something to play with my buds that doesn't take 3 hours to play ... looks like i'll be putting more time into X-wing. Hell, might even dip back into Warmachine and re-create my old Caine2 pewpewpew lists until i see how the fantasy dust settles.
My buds and i will still play 8th of course, but i honestly think that all GW is doing is going to further alienate their fantasy genre playing crowd.... And its not like they don't have genre competition if not exactly scale competition in genre.
Dorrand wrote: I'd like to be optimistic about the rumored changes. Some of them could be great ideas for a supplemental game that works in conjunction with WHFB. However I have doubts about GW's ability to pull it off. I've spent some time thinking about those doubts and I've come to the conclusion that GW lacks understanding about the intangible parts of the gaming hobby. More specifically I think they lack understanding about our culture because there are fewer and fewer gamers in charge over there. There are certain things that a gaming company must have in order to appeal to the gamer community. The more of these items a company checks off, the more appeal they will have.
1) A great game with solid rules that are fun to play.
2) Great fluff that gets us excited to play. We sometimes joke about the fluff bunnies but most of us have a little fluff bunny in them.
3) Great Models that are a pleasure to assemble/paint.
4) Affordability.
5) Variety.
6) A healthy, developed community.
7) Ambassadors and other support to the community including our FLGS's.
8) Willingness to listen to and interact with the community.
All those items go together to create value. Like I said above, the more of those items that a company checks off the more successful they are likely to be as a gaming company because we percieve greater value. Focus on the above principles and with competent management the bottom line will follow. At some point GW started focusing on the bottom line first and that's where things went wrong. (I do have to emphasize competent management because without that you can end up in a defiance games situation).
The more I think about it, I don't think GW can recreate the value to woo back those of us who have jumped ship because they have demonstrated a lack of ability to address #1 in recent years. We've all seen games where it drags down to a halt because you're on a critical turn and there are multiple interpretations of the same pivotal rule. It has happened more in the GW games than any other system I've played and their FAQ's are often inadequate and outdated. #2 they've got, because they've had it for decades but now their talking about trashing the old fluff. #3 They can do if you can go for their aesthetic. In all honesty 'moar skullz' and barefoot state troopers irritates me to no end, but their sculptors have talent. We have all seen their willingness to flagrantly abandon #4. #5 they can do. #6 is debatable. As a community we are developed, but we are not healthy. Many of us are embittered and resentful by past treatment. Most of us harbor hope that this time it will be better, every time. It gets tiresome. Every visit to a FLGS shows fewer and fewer games of anything GW being played and less GW product on the shelf. #7 they've just abandoned. Finally, GW has made it evident for a decade that they don't care for #8 at all. Unless they are willing to address some of the points they've failed at in the past several years I'm pretty sure this new edition won't do what it needs to do for them.
If you compare them with other gaming companies that are on the same scale the rumors have them trying to toe into you see that the other companies create significantly more value: Warmahordes, Wild West Exodus, Malifaux, Infinity, etc. Those games all charge a premium for their product (and thus steer away from #4 to a degree) but we are okay with it because they all emphasize the other 7 aspects of gaming value.
I would love to be wrong. I would love to come back to WHFB. It was fun to resist the forces of Chaos with nothing but steel, gunpowder, and courage. Put bluntly, though, games workshop products lack value and I fear they can no longer execute well enough to restore that value with the rumored changes alone. Especially if they damage #2 which is one of the few aspects they still had going for them in the WHFB world.
I think your list is pretty good. In my opinion, in #8 GW has definitely fallen short, or at the very least, has given everyone in North America the impression that they don't listen. I don't know how it is in Europe.
Affordability is a curious one. 40k and WHFB are expensive *games* to play. However, as a hobby, almost every other company that fulfills #2 and #3 (from a Scifi-Fantasy perspective) is much more expensive to model, and has far inferior modelling potential. I actually think that 40k is the cheapest scifi brand to *model* a large collection of quality.
I'm probably one of GW's easiest customers. As long as they keep making models that I like, and those models don't cost more (or much more) than similar quality alternatives, I'll keep giving them money. The rules are really secondary for me -- I could play with any set of rules from Rogue Trader to 7th, and be happy, as long as I get to get together with friends, plunk down a an awesome table, and have some fun.
I'll keep giving money to PP too, as long as they keep producing nice models of the sort that I like (they have some models that I just consider ugly, and I can't bring myself to buy, muich less paint them). I just can't give PP as much money, because there is very little point in buying more than 1 or 2 of any given model, whereas, for instance, GW has given me a reason to build a couple of dozen bikes (geared/factioned differently), a dozen dreadnoughts, three boxes of centurions, etc. Infinity is the same thing. I own every single model that's come out for it (never played the game once, lol). I love the scupts -- but I'll never buy another model unless they release new stuff.
I for one am a huge fan of the 'large armies on a table' thing that fantasy offers, and if this changes or is no longer supported that could actually kill the hobby for me as i'm one of those unfortunates that relies almost entirely on pickup gaming to get my fantasy fix. I'm hoping maybe this is more of a mordheim style release to go with current style fantasy than a complete replacement (as has been previously stated, a gateway drug so to speak). As for the bubblelicious bubbleverse, it sounds horrendous, and I know these rumour guys have a fairly good rep but fingers crossed that they're wrong. (oh and round bases in fantasy can eat it! lol)
I didn't create that list with any particular order. I just came up with what I thought were principless of value for different folks in the community. Everyone seems to have their own aspects of value that they rank higher than others. For some it's the model quality that is everything and they don't care about the games much if at all. I play with a Necromunda guy who I've never seen win a game, but he has the most beautifully converted models I've ever played against. He doesn't really care about winning. For him the game is an excuse to make more figs. Like you, he cares less about cost and game play and everything about the models themselves. I've seen him pick up a box just for one of the extra bits in the box and it's conversion potential. For him, his most important value is quality.
As for affordability, that in itself is a value as opposed to quality. From what I've seen some companies exist based on the value of affordability. EM4, Wargames Factory, Prince August and Mantic all make a point of emphasizing the value of affordability. They create value by being more affordable.
Talking about the cheapest brand to model an army of quality is just emphasizing value 3 over value 4. For someone where the reverse was true they could use the bag of 80 warzone soldiers from Prince August for less than $0.50 per model.
It just goes show that different people would order that list differently as to what's important to them.
An interesting thing though is that to my knowledge all those companies have some form of interaction with their customers. Mantic has their pathfinder program and their forums along with other interaction programs. Prince august is responsive to email. And reps from Wargames Factory prowl their forums on a regular basis and provide input along with keeping an active facebook page.
I didn't create that list with any particular order. I just came up with what I thought were principless of value for different folks in the community. Everyone seems to have their own aspects of value that they rank higher than others. For some it's the model quality that is everything and they don't care about the games much if at all. I play with a Necromunda guy who I've never seen win a game, but he has the most beautifully converted models I've ever played against. He doesn't really care about winning. For him the game is an excuse to make more figs. Like you, he cares less about cost and game play and everything about the models themselves. I've seen him pick up a box just for one of the extra bits in the box and it's conversion potential. For him, his most important value is quality.
As for affordability, that in itself is a value as opposed to quality. From what I've seen some companies exist based on the value of affordability. EM4, Wargames Factory, Prince August and Mantic all make a point of emphasizing the value of affordability. They create value by being more affordable.
Talking about the cheapest brand to model an army of quality is just emphasizing value 3 over value 4. For someone where the reverse was true they could use the bag of 80 warzone soldiers from Prince August for less than $0.50 per model.
It just goes show that different people would order that list differently as to what's important to them.
An interesting thing though is that to my knowledge all those companies have some form of interaction with their customers. Mantic has their pathfinder program and their forums along with other interaction programs. Prince august is responsive to email. And reps from Wargames Factory prowl their forums on a regular basis and provide input along with keeping an active facebook page.
Out of the 4 companies that you mention, I own some Mantic stuff (Deadzone), and 1 Wargames Factory model, but Wargames Factory has very little scifi to speak of -- or that I've seen, anyhow (a small number of DreamForge models). I've never seen anything by EM4 or Prince August, so I can't say -- maybe just my FLGS doesn't carry their stuff.
I don't think the quality is quite there yet for Mantic -- their Ruined City, for example, is far inferior to 40k terrain, and their Maurauders are like a poor-man's Orks. Still, I've bought some to support the company, and I think I actually painted enough Enforcers to play a game, if I could only find someone who was interested I hope that one day they have at least a PP-sized catalogue; at the moment, it's not a very viable hobby, as each faction has only a handful of models.
I actually quite like your list; I think it's apt, and reflects priorities of customers, though as you say, the priority of each point varies from one person to the next.
GW is actually quite responsive by email (I've emailed many times, and have always received a real, thoughtful response by a human being). However, I certainly agree that I feel their games would be better if they'd solicit input from their fans in a visible, interactive way. I have no idea what happens in the UK, where it's based, but in Canada, where I am, there is no point in giving a GW store staff member input.
I wish other companies would pick up the MPP concept of GW (where there are kitting options). It would make so many other products a viable hobby aside from occasionally painting a cool looking unit.
I get what you're saying Talys, as the perspective of a collector. I look at mantic or wargames factory and see pretty good playing pieces, at a price suitable to what they are intended for. A good system should have room for both collectors and gamers, and i haven't been able to say that about games workshop for a long time now.
edit: and while games workshop touts the line that their customers are in majority collectors and not gamers, it seems to me from their results that that is not true. Thats the real shame of what's going on, if gw can't keep their gak in check then both collectors and gamers will end up losing in the long run.
Accolade wrote: GW isn't really interested in the gaming aspect of their model lines
GW has repeately stated that they consider their games to be primarily for collecting, not playing.
Indeed they have but they can say that all they want. Their "collectors" tend to prefer playing and if they scorn the game side so GAMES-Workshop it'll bite em in the ass, hard.
ironic that you quote that, since they are officially changing their company name to warhammer. It even says just warhammer on the front of some of their stores in england.
Orock wrote: ironic that you quote that, since they are officially changing their company name to warhammer. It even says just warhammer on the front of some of their stores in england.
Have they officially said that or is that just extrapolation because they changed the signs on some of their stores?
Torga_DW wrote: I get what you're saying Talys, as the perspective of a collector. I look at mantic or wargames factory and see pretty good playing pieces, at a price suitable to what they are intended for. A good system should have room for both collectors and gamers, and i haven't been able to say that about games workshop for a long time now.
edit: and while games workshop touts the line that their customers are in majority collectors and not gamers, it seems to me from their results that that is not true. Thats the real shame of what's going on, if gw can't keep their gak in check then both collectors and gamers will end up losing in the long run.
Well, really, I don't think it can be either/or. If 40k models weren't playable, I'd buy a lot less (if any). I certainly wouldn't buy $30 heroes unless they were really, really special -- and a lot of them aren't. On the other hand, I'm not really interested in excellent rules that don't have a model collection behind them -- because in that case, I'd rather play computer games, where game rules are not subject to interpretation, and where matchmaking is never an issue. Or wait until there are more/better models
I think that most 40k "collectors" or "hobbyists" still like the game and game setting, even if they don't play as much as people who would principally consider themselves gamers. And in any case, it's good money for them. I may only play two or three nights out of a month (certainly less than 40 nights a year), but I've still purchased every codex and rulebook, and a good number of the campaign and scenario books.
Talys wrote: Well, really, I don't think it can be either/or. If 40k models weren't playable, I'd buy a lot less (if any). I certainly wouldn't buy $30 heroes unless they were really, really special -- and a lot of them aren't. On the other hand, I'm not really interested in excellent rules that don't have a model collection behind them -- because in that case, I'd rather play computer games, where game rules are not subject to interpretation, and where matchmaking is never an issue. Or wait until there are more/better models
I think that most 40k "collectors" or "hobbyists" still like the game and game setting, even if they don't play as much as people who would principally consider themselves gamers. And in any case, it's good money for them. I may only play two or three nights out of a month (certainly less than 40 nights a year), but I've still purchased every codex and rulebook, and a good number of the campaign and scenario books.
I get what you're saying, but i'm just watching them go from a company with a wide & diverse range of games down to a company with 3 big games: 40k (safe for the moment), Fantasy (entire range getting squatted & shrunk), Lord of the Rings (a sole and rapidly declining exception according to kirby). Hard to collect when the ranges keep shrinking.
I get what you're saying, but i'm just watching them go from a company with a wide & diverse range of games down to a company with 3 big games: 40k (safe for the moment), Fantasy (entire range getting squatted & shrunk), Lord of the Rings (a sole and rapidly declining exception according to kirby). Hard to collect when the ranges keep shrinking.
In our neck of the woods, LoTR is pretty much dead. Stuff sits on clearance at 50%, and never moves. In 2014, there were some fantastic WHFB releases though -- Treeman Ancient is one of my all-time favorite models. I guess, Space Hulk is back now, and Talisman has always been fun (yes, no minis there)
Going back to the original rumors on this thread, I don't see GW making non-core units very limited time, if for no other reason than that this makes it hard for them to make money off a sculpted model. It wouldn't really fit my buying pattern for Fantasy, either -- I buy the models just to model, but mostly I pick them up as impulse buys when there's nothing else in the store that I want (including releases from non-GW companies). It's still a pretty healthy amount of stuff, though.
Also, it causes a stocking issue with local stores -- and even GW stores. If Blightkings are no longer current, how is the store going to get rid of it? On the other hand, if the unit is really good, it will turn into a Black Lotus scenario (using MtG as an anology) -- three years later, High Elf Silver Dragon with "Power of the Ancients: Once per game, immediately remove any 3 models from the game." will be worth $10,000 when BNIB.
Talys wrote: Going back to the original rumors on this thread, I don't see GW making non-core units very limited time, if for no other reason than that this makes it hard for them to make money off a sculpted model. It wouldn't really fit my buying pattern for Fantasy, either -- I buy the models just to model, but mostly I pick them up as impulse buys when there's nothing else in the store that I want (including releases from non-GW companies). It's still a pretty healthy amount of stuff, though.
But the trend within GW has been to go towards limited edition stuff, like any of the finecast characters (though not quite the same - it's only in store for the launch and then direct ordre from then) and most of the sales for something are within the launch window.
So I can easily see them going limited run for any non-core stuff for a few reasons; they can probably keep it direct only for more profit, it trains customers to buy stuff ASAP for more impulse purchasing, and it means they don't need as much shelf space. To GW limited run mini's is win-win.
Accolade wrote: GW isn't really interested in the gaming aspect of their model lines
GW has repeately stated that they consider their games to be primarily for collecting, not playing.
Indeed they have but they can say that all they want. Their "collectors" tend to prefer playing and if they scorn the game side so GAMES-Workshop it'll bite em in the ass, hard.
ironic that you quote that, since they are officially changing their company name to warhammer. It even says just warhammer on the front of some of their stores in england.
Did you make that up? The store name change was, according to the owner, an "experiment", whatever that means. There has been no indication that it has larger implications.
Talys wrote: Going back to the original rumors on this thread, I don't see GW making non-core units very limited time, if for no other reason than that this makes it hard for them to make money off a sculpted model. It wouldn't really fit my buying pattern for Fantasy, either -- I buy the models just to model, but mostly I pick them up as impulse buys when there's nothing else in the store that I want (including releases from non-GW companies). It's still a pretty healthy amount of stuff, though.
But the trend within GW has been to go towards limited edition stuff, like any of the finecast characters (though not quite the same - it's only in store for the launch and then direct ordre from then) and most of the sales for something are within the launch window.
So I can easily see them going limited run for any non-core stuff for a few reasons; they can probably keep it direct only for more profit, it trains customers to buy stuff ASAP for more impulse purchasing, and it means they don't need as much shelf space. To GW limited run mini's is win-win.
Well, web-only (or direct-buy) is a big difference from limited time release. I'd be totally ok with web-only after a launch window for the expensive individual models, because they don't sell in the store anyhow. Even so, I think these are only finecast and metal models, which GW would like to obsolete.
For instance, Grimnar's War Council (which includes Logan Grimnar) is finecast and web-only. However, Logan Grimnar on the chariot is plastic and normal order.
Another thing that I've noticed for 40k in the last year is that other than Logan Grimnar, I don't think there have been any 40k characters released by themselves. Every named hero release has come (only) in some box set -- for instance, Karlaen with Deathstorm. There have been HQ indivudal character releases, but they are unnamed -- like Avatar, Succubus, Sanguinary Priest, BA Librarian, etc.
Frankly, this is ok with me on the characters too. It gives GW a nice, big ticket sale, but it gives me a WAY better value, model-wise, than buying a $30 individual character. Most of my characters are kitbashes anyhow; for instance, Dante made from Sanguinary Guard. Mostly, this is because I'm not really crazy about 28mm finecast models.
Regarding the bases, I'm interested in seeing whether the scenic rock bits on the new Skaven plastic characters are moulded directly to the square bases, or whether they're separate pieces that would function just as well with another base shape.
Talys wrote: Going back to the original rumors on this thread, I don't see GW making non-core units very limited time, if for no other reason than that this makes it hard for them to make money off a sculpted model. It wouldn't really fit my buying pattern for Fantasy, either -- I buy the models just to model, but mostly I pick them up as impulse buys when there's nothing else in the store that I want (including releases from non-GW companies). It's still a pretty healthy amount of stuff, though.
But the trend within GW has been to go towards limited edition stuff, like any of the finecast characters (though not quite the same - it's only in store for the launch and then direct ordre from then) and most of the sales for something are within the launch window.
So I can easily see them going limited run for any non-core stuff for a few reasons; they can probably keep it direct only for more profit, it trains customers to buy stuff ASAP for more impulse purchasing, and it means they don't need as much shelf space. To GW limited run mini's is win-win.
Well, web-only (or direct-buy) is a big difference from limited time release. I'd be totally ok with web-only after a launch window for the expensive individual models, because they don't sell in the store anyhow. Even so, I think these are only finecast and metal models, which GW would like to obsolete.
For instance, Grimnar's War Council (which includes Logan Grimnar) is finecast and web-only. However, Logan Grimnar on the chariot is plastic and normal order.
Another thing that I've noticed for 40k in the last year is that other than Logan Grimnar, I don't think there have been any 40k characters released by themselves. Every named hero release has come (only) in some box set -- for instance, Karlaen with Deathstorm. There have been HQ indivudal character releases, but they are unnamed -- like Avatar, Succubus, Sanguinary Priest, BA Librarian, etc.
Frankly, this is ok with me on the characters too. It gives GW a nice, big ticket sale, but it gives me a WAY better value, model-wise, than buying a $30 individual character. Most of my characters are kitbashes anyhow; for instance, Dante made from Sanguinary Guard. Mostly, this is because I'm not really crazy about 28mm finecast models.
The big problem with web only stuff is that it feths over independents. All the independent stores I am familiar with used to carry a couple of plastic boxes, enough blisters to fill out any special/rare choices that were in metal (minus big things like dragons) and then a commander or two for most forces. Then if you wanted something else, you could order it in. Direct only stuff screws that up, while independents still can order direct only stuff, the profit margins are so slim that for a lot of smaller places it's hardly worth it.
As for metal/finecast. The benefit of metal has always been that you can produce a wide range in a short time with lower initial investment. This meant more expansive ranges (IG have completely unique models for Tallarn, Vostroyan, Mordian, Steel Legion, Valhallan and even had a limited run of Praetorian Guard, that would simply not be possible with plastic). Some armies have plastic core models from the late 90's that could really use an update, but we get stuck with them because GW is busy putting out plastics to replace metal models instead of refreshing the crappy plastic core models.
Of course finecast is such a massive pile of overpriced poo that I would rather see plastics... however I would have preferred overall if GW just had of kept the metals or swapped to a not-terrible-and-overpriced resin so that we could have wider ranges of models and replace the core plastic kits more often.
Metal went direct only because they stopped making it and had a smaller inventory to work off of so it was easier to keep tabs on it and phase it out centerally.
Finecast had so many problems and was also abandoned that they had to drop it too because it was costing them money on replacement models.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: [The big problem with web only stuff is that it feths over independents. All the independent stores I am familiar with used to carry a couple of plastic boxes, enough blisters to fill out any special/rare choices that were in metal (minus big things like dragons) and then a commander or two for most forces. Then if you wanted something else, you could order it in. Direct only stuff screws that up, while independents still can order direct only stuff, the profit margins are so slim that for a lot of smaller places it's hardly worth it.
As for metal/finecast. The benefit of metal has always been that you can produce a wide range in a short time with lower initial investment. This meant more expansive ranges (IG have completely unique models for Tallarn, Vostroyan, Mordian, Steel Legion, Valhallan and even had a limited run of Praetorian Guard, that would simply not be possible with plastic). Some armies have plastic core models from the late 90's that could really use an update, but we get stuck with them because GW is busy putting out plastics to replace metal models instead of refreshing the crappy plastic core models.
Of course finecast is such a massive pile of overpriced poo that I would rather see plastics... however I would have preferred overall if GW just had of kept the metals or swapped to a not-terrible-and-overpriced resin so that we could have wider ranges of models and replace the core plastic kits more often.
I'd agree with you with the web-only stuff if included current models, or even plastic models. However, the metal (and finecast) models don't sell at all at FLGS. It's so bad that I sit and wait until they are severely discounted (below the store's original purchase price) before I buy them.
In my annual boxing day hunt, I picked up 2 finecast grotesques for $13, Urien Rakarth for $10, a Sanguinor for $15, Stern for $15, and a bunch of unexciting, outdated space marine charaters/elite metal minis that finally dropped into the $7 range (this is the price point where I'll scoop up almost anything remotely useful). There were even a box full of Sisters that could be had for $6-$8, but I passed because they'll probably come out in plastic (hopefully... praying...). The thing is, most of these models were there last year -- they were just a little more, and I didn't feel like paying $18 for grotesques, nor will I ever play Urien Rakarth (I don't think so, anyhow). On the other hand, my store sells out of Sanguinary Priest, Archon, BA Librarian, Succubus, etc. all the time.
Obviously, I would prefer it if my FLGS could order in the discontinued metals, because they'd discount it for me from the web price. However, I need one of them so rarely that it's not a big deal. I don't mind web ordering *one* $15-$30 model and picking it up at a GW store... though I can't even remember the last time I did that (maybe for Draigo, or something).
I guess what I'm saying is that I highly doubt any of my stores would actually stock them if they were given the opportunity (except for a handful of popular key characters), and if *nobody* will risk stocking them, it's only fair that GW picks up the extra profit for having to deal with the inventory.
Talys wrote: I'd agree with you with the web-only stuff if included current models, or even plastic models. However, the metal (and finecast) models don't sell at all at FLGS. It's so bad that I sit and wait until they are severely discounted (below the store's original purchase price) before I buy them.
Well, they do include "current" models in the sense that just because it wasn't in the latest release doesn't mean it's obsolete/discontinued. Just looking at the IG line, the commissars are all direct only, Yarrick, Creed, Pask, regimental advisors, basically every character other than the new plastic commissar and plastic command squad. Along with Ratlings, all the models for any regiment that isn't cadian or catachan, though even the cadian/catachan snipers are direct only, even the (plastic) single heavy weapon teams. I noticed the Hellhound has also gone direct only along with the Basilisk.
I've never seen an FLGS carry a wide range of metal stuff anyway, usually only a basic character or two for whatever army came out that month. But there's the other aspect of them being able to order them in. It's bad for customers (who can't get discounts on them) and it's bad for the FLGS (who makes feth all profit off direct only stuff).
The problem as I see it is GW is making it as unpleasant and unprofitable as possible for independents to carry their stock. It's bad for customers who want to get products easily and at a decent price, it's bad for independents who it seems are increasingly only carrying GW stuff as a favour to their customers (and increasingly pushing other games) and I think GW will find they've burned their own arses when local communities are pushed away from their products.
This might be silly conjecture (as well as entirely wrong), but are Fantasy models shown in the WD generally set up in ranks or are they freely spaced around to create dynamism?
I ask because a lot of the images of the new Skaven Stormfiends have the Empire militia and Lizardmen spaced all around them without any real rhyme or reason. It could obviously just be for pictures, I was just curious if anyone knew much about the WDs to provide some insight.
Accolade wrote: GW isn't really interested in the gaming aspect of their model lines
GW has repeately stated that they consider their games to be primarily for collecting, not playing.
They are called Games Workshop. They sell their rulebooks for absurd amounts of money. The first thing they will try and sell you when you walk in the door is the starter set to play games.
The "we primarily make collectables not games" is just an excuse for poor rules and a pathetic attempt to make it seem like Chapterhouse were costing them money in that stupid court case.
And TSR stood for Tactical Studies Research. If GW were renamed Warhammer, Inc. You wouldn't like them any more or less. It's just a name
Talys wrote: I'd agree with you with the web-only stuff if included current models, or even plastic models. However, the metal (and finecast) models don't sell at all at FLGS. It's so bad that I sit and wait until they are severely discounted (below the store's original purchase price) before I buy them.
Well, they do include "current" models in the sense that just because it wasn't in the latest release doesn't mean it's obsolete/discontinued. Just looking at the IG line, the commissars are all direct only, Yarrick, Creed, Pask, regimental advisors, basically every character other than the new plastic commissar and plastic command squad. Along with Ratlings, all the models for any regiment that isn't cadian or catachan, though even the cadian/catachan snipers are direct only, even the (plastic) single heavy weapon teams. I noticed the Hellhound has also gone direct only along with the Basilisk.
I've never seen an FLGS carry a wide range of metal stuff anyway, usually only a basic character or two for whatever army came out that month. But there's the other aspect of them being able to order them in. It's bad for customers (who can't get discounts on them) and it's bad for the FLGS (who makes feth all profit off direct only stuff).
The problem as I see it is GW is making it as unpleasant and unprofitable as possible for independents to carry their stock. It's bad for customers who want to get products easily and at a decent price, it's bad for independents who it seems are increasingly only carrying GW stuff as a favour to their customers (and increasingly pushing other games) and I think GW will find they've burned their own arses when local communities are pushed away from their products.
Yeah, when I mean "current", I mean, in production and that sells in a normal-ish way. It's not just IG -- almost all of the single model named IC units of any faction are metal or finecast, and virtually all (maybe, actually all) of those are web-only. However, you pretty much make my point, just as I have made yours
None of my FLGS carry more than a smattering of the $25+ solo 28mm metal/finecast models, mostly because they sell really poorly -- and this means that GW has little incentive to sell product to them at a wholesale price. Plus, since they don't want to make more finecast/metal, this lets them stretch their inventory. How long have Grotesques been out of stock direct?
On the other hand, the same process makes it annoying to independents (or even GW stores) who can't get stock of the OOP, but still in-codex and in-inventory models. The Independents are screwed either way, because if they stock the IC models, all they do is take up shelf space for months or years until they are flogged off; or, if they don't their customers are unhappy that they can't get the one hero they want.
The solution, of course, is obvious: reduce the price of named characters, or sell them in a box set, so that more players buy more named characters. If the named characters were closer to $15, I'd buy every single one; at $30, I only buy the ones that I really want/need, and I'll kitbash my way through most of them (like Draigo with GK, Dante with Sanguinary, etc.)
It was never really a problem that an independent wouldn't stock every single metal blister as they could just order the ones they need as customers wanted them. It would be silly for them to think they could. I started playing in the mid 90's and even back then my FLGS didn't carry the full range of metals, they just had a few token blisters here any there.
It would only really matter to huge independent stores that do enough business and have enough space to store them all.
The move to direct only was less a problem with stores wanting to maintain a huge stock of blisters but rather the move to direct only was accompanied by a massive reduction in the margin for independents.
Accolade wrote: This might be silly conjecture (as well as entirely wrong), but are Fantasy models shown in the WD generally set up in ranks or are they freely spaced around to create dynamism?
I ask because a lot of the images of the new Skaven Stormfiends have the Empire militia and Lizardmen spaced all around them without any real rhyme or reason. It could obviously just be for pictures, I was just curious if anyone knew much about the WDs to provide some insight.
Good point. I was looking at older books and they're almost always ranked up. Can't say for WD.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: It was never really a problem that an independent wouldn't stock every single metal blister as they could just order the ones they need as customers wanted them. It would be silly for them to think they could. I started playing in the mid 90's and even back then my FLGS didn't carry the full range of metals, they just had a few token blisters here any there.
It would only really matter to huge independent stores that do enough business and have enough space to store them all.
The move to direct only was less a problem with stores wanting to maintain a huge stock of blisters but rather the move to direct only was accompanied by a massive reduction in the margin for independents.
Hasn't the margin always been a bit shy of 50%? Currently, a codex for CDN $59.50 has a trade price of $32.73 and a typical $60 box has a trade price of $27.50. I seem to recall margins about the same many years ago. If anything, higher prices mean more gross profit for independents (you make twice as much money on a $60 codex as a $30 codex, at the same margin). Ironically, in part, the dollar ticket amounts is what makes it possible for independents to offer bigger (percentage) discounts.
I don't think my stores have a problem stocking tons of blisters (just look at the PP area). The issue is that those blisters are so crazy expensive for most people that there's no turnover. And, really, a lot of the metal or ressin models aren't even that great anymore, compared with new models, making it even harder to justify the premium.
Talys wrote: you make twice as much money on a $60 codex as a $30 codex, at the same margin
Unless the aggregate customer sensitivity to price halves your demand, then you make the same margin, and in the case of network effect products, reduce your advertising.
Hasn't the margin always been a bit shy of 50%? Currently, a codex for CDN $59.50 has a trade price of $32.73 and a typical $60 box has a trade price of $27.50. I seem to recall margins about the same many years ago. If anything, higher prices mean more gross profit for independents (you make twice as much money on a $60 codex as a $30 codex, at the same margin). Ironically, in part, the dollar ticket amounts is what makes it possible for independents to offer bigger (percentage) discounts.
No. The gross margin of a product, (the amount of money the company makes after it pays for the costs of the goods sold) varies by product. It can be around 50%, but that varies by product, industry and the like. What's more important is the net income. The company has to also pay all the overhead, like payroll for HR, leases for office space, financing costs on the money borrowed, and other costs not specifically associated with making that one book. A good company keeps less than a nickel out of every dollar. Google Finance put Walmart, one of the most profitable companies in the world, at 3.36% net income for last year.
It's almost an urban legend. They have done surveys and asked people what profit a company makes on each item sold and for decades it's been 50%. Just not true.
How about you just tell us so we don't have to listen to it?
It's about Draigo allegeldy showing up on End Times.
Does Draigo show up in The Old World, gak all over the Chaos Gods' plan to wreck the place and HE'S the reason nobody can go out of their bubbles in the grim darkness of the near future?
How about you just tell us so we don't have to listen to it?
It's about Draigo allegeldy showing up on End Times.
Does Draigo show up in The Old World, gak all over the Chaos Gods' plan to wreck the place and HE'S the reason nobody can go out of their bubbles in the grim darkness of the near future?
No
There's an unnamed mysterious, heavily armoured figure. If Warhammer goes "Dimensional Marines" for a new faction, I'd guess this might be a foreshadowing of one.
How about you just tell us so we don't have to listen to it?
It's about Draigo allegeldy showing up on End Times.
Does Draigo show up in The Old World, gak all over the Chaos Gods' plan to wreck the place and HE'S the reason nobody can go out of their bubbles in the grim darkness of the near future?
No
There's an unnamed mysterious, heavily armoured figure. If Warhammer goes "Dimensional Marines" for a new faction, I'd guess this might be a foreshadowing of one.
So papa Draigo starts putting his gene-seed around and makes the fantasy-marines?
Only if this "mysterious unnamed" guy really is Draigo.
Doubt it. He's more likely "Sigaigo the Super-Sigmaritarian Dimensional Marine" who'll headline some 120p "novella" (~ GBP 120,-) coming with WFB 9th Edition to introduce the new faction.
Draigo founds his own Knightly Order and infuses them with his gene-seed somehow (and that sounds downright perverse and disgusting, now that I think about it...) to make superhuman humans in WHFB.
WayneTheGame wrote: Draigo founds his own Knightly Order and infuses them with his gene-seed somehow (and that sounds downright perverse and disgusting, now that I think about it...) to make superhuman humans in WHFB.
I'm just excited about the possiblity of Russ himself showing up to refound the White Wolves of Wolfiness after Middenheim fallsand this time the wolf knights will ride giant wolves while wearing wolf capes and swinging hammers topped with bronzed baby wolvesthat will be released with the book End Times: Wolf Time.
WayneTheGame wrote: Draigo founds his own Knightly Order and infuses them with his gene-seed somehow (and that sounds downright perverse and disgusting, now that I think about it...) to make superhuman humans in WHFB.
I'm just excited about the possiblity of Russ himself showing up to refound the White Wolves of Wolfiness after Middenheim fallsand this time the wolf knights will ride giant wolves while wearing wolf capes and swinging hammers topped with bronzed baby wolvesthat will be released with the book End Times: Wolf Time.
I have to admit, an epic model of a naked and mad Russ fighting the good fight at the very end has always been on my wishlist. It would fit perfectly in this setting, right?
I'm wondering now if those armored figures that have appeared in the more recent WHFB lore are supposed to be the supposed Fantasy Marines, or if they're actually Space Marines from 40k. I'd really prefer the former over the latter, Space Marines make the point of the motivations in the Warhammer World relatively moot when bolters can just blow away most Fantasy armies. I'd seen the stuff about Draigo and was saddened to hear GW was going back to this idea of connection between the worlds, but perhaps it's just the Fantasy Marines.
Can anyone tell me in greater detail if it really does appear to be Draigo in the books, or does it just sound like Marines?
EDIT: Okay, I read the information in the 1d4chan about this (take that as you will). I agree with Lockark below, I think this lore could either be (a) Draigo, or (b) the first glimpse of these new Fantasy Marines, or (c) Sigmar himself.
pretre wrote: Draigo showed up already in a WHFB novel, didn't he?
Spoiler:
He showed up in Warhammer Khaine in the flavortext. He joined Araloth frolicking in Nurgle's Garden. Although he was not specifically named.
Spoiler:
Because of how vague the description was, it could of also been Sigmar in his dwarven armour. It would explain why a elf would describe his armour has looking "baroque" and since Sigmar is a Man who became a god he might just appear as a really powerful human well aiding Araloth in the garden of nurgle.
pretre wrote: Draigo showed up already in a WHFB novel, didn't he?
Spoiler:
He showed up in Warhammer Khaine in the flavortext. He joined Araloth frolicking in Nurgle's Garden. Although he was not specifically named.
Spoiler:
Because of how vague the description was, it could of also been Sigmar in his dwarven armour. It would explain why a elf would describe his armour has looking "baroque" and since Sigmar is a Man who became a god he might just appear as a really powerful human well aiding Araloth in the garden of nurgle.
From BOLS
Spoiler:
Araloth (the wood elf) ventured into the Realms of Chaos on a mission at one point and while there meets, and is aided by, a scholar, a sorcerer, and an unusually large knight in gleaming silver armor. He is described as speaking in a strange language and claims that he has made a name for himself within the Realms of Chaos. When he fights demons he can fling out his hand and have blue flame erupt amongst them (storm bolter with psy bolts?).
He distracts the demons long enough so that Araloth can complete his mission and on his way back out the elf sees the "knight" impaled upon a spear but still alive. He wants to save him but the scholar says that he will be fine and that the demons cannot ever truly kill him.
So it never says it's him... but it definitely sounds like Draigo to me. An overly large "knight" wandering the Realms of Chaos who is well known by its inhabitants? I think we just had out first 40k/Fantasy cross over in awhile. I think the writers thought they were being more subtle about it then they were...
pretre wrote: Draigo showed up already in a WHFB novel, didn't he?
Spoiler:
He showed up in Warhammer Khaine in the flavortext. He joined Araloth frolicking in Nurgle's Garden. Although he was not specifically named.
Spoiler:
Because of how vague the description was, it could of also been Sigmar in his dwarven armour. It would explain why a elf would describe his armour has looking "baroque" and since Sigmar is a Man who became a god he might just appear as a really powerful human well aiding Araloth in the garden of nurgle.
Spoiler:
He is a giant of a man in silver armour who walks the Realm of Chaos fighting deamons. He can't be killed and with a sweep of his hand explosions rip some attacking deamons apart. That sounds a lot like a Gray Knight using psy-ammunition if you ask me.
The eternal pessimist in me now thinks that rather than the warhammer world as a planet in the eye of terror (old, discarded background)
it might well actually be Earth post 40K, the last planet anywhere largely free of the taint of the ruinous powers, with Sigmar being a last attempt by the god/emperor/spirit power thingy whotsit to resit them
I am totally down with Draigo being in Fantasy and the Warhammer World being a planet in the 40K universe somewhere. And Sigmar can be a lost Primarch.
Bronzefists42 wrote: The wolftime sounds like a really terrible metal band or a mid season replacement children's tv show.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: It was never really a problem that an independent wouldn't stock every single metal blister as they could just order the ones they need as customers wanted them. It would be silly for them to think they could. I started playing in the mid 90's and even back then my FLGS didn't carry the full range of metals, they just had a few token blisters here any there.
It would only really matter to huge independent stores that do enough business and have enough space to store them all.
The move to direct only was less a problem with stores wanting to maintain a huge stock of blisters but rather the move to direct only was accompanied by a massive reduction in the margin for independents.
Hasn't the margin always been a bit shy of 50%? Currently, a codex for CDN $59.50 has a trade price of $32.73 and a typical $60 box has a trade price of $27.50. I seem to recall margins about the same many years ago. If anything, higher prices mean more gross profit for independents (you make twice as much money on a $60 codex as a $30 codex, at the same margin). Ironically, in part, the dollar ticket amounts is what makes it possible for independents to offer bigger (percentage) discounts.
Sorry I meant the wholesale price. Individual retailers aren't typically willing to share what their wholesale price is (both because they agree with the manufacturer not to and because they don't want customers to know how much they are paying). The wholesale price on regular GW stuff is in the 40-45% range off retail (or has been historically). Direct only items that has significantly reduced, again it's hard to find specific values but I want to say around 10-20% off retail, but don't quote me on those numbers because it's hard to nail down concrete information on it. I do know it's significantly less because several shops have told me that it's not worth them bothering with direct only stuff because they barely make any money off it other than to make customers happy hoping they'll come back for other stuff. Some stores that offer discounts explicitly say they only offer discounts on stuff that isn't web/direct only because they can't afford to do so.
They are also limited on how much direct only stuff they can order. In the UK an independent can only order 500GBP worth of direct only stuff (based on retail price) I remember MWG complaining about it too and I think they said $500 worth of direct only stuff.
I've been approaching these rumors from the perspective of someone who's always been curious about Fantasy, but never got around to playing the game.
I'm interested in something different from 40k: a fantasy game that is more accessible in terms of cost to start-up compared to its predecessor and perhaps more simplistic in rules. But if it turns out that the Warhammer world is just a backwaters planet in 40k, then I end up right back in square one! (especially if the round bases thing turns out to be true and suddenly people want to play Lizardmen with their Space Marines... *shudder*)
AllSeeingSkink wrote: It was never really a problem that an independent wouldn't stock every single metal blister as they could just order the ones they need as customers wanted them. It would be silly for them to think they could. I started playing in the mid 90's and even back then my FLGS didn't carry the full range of metals, they just had a few token blisters here any there.
It would only really matter to huge independent stores that do enough business and have enough space to store them all.
The move to direct only was less a problem with stores wanting to maintain a huge stock of blisters but rather the move to direct only was accompanied by a massive reduction in the margin for independents.
Hasn't the margin always been a bit shy of 50%? Currently, a codex for CDN $59.50 has a trade price of $32.73 and a typical $60 box has a trade price of $27.50. I seem to recall margins about the same many years ago. If anything, higher prices mean more gross profit for independents (you make twice as much money on a $60 codex as a $30 codex, at the same margin). Ironically, in part, the dollar ticket amounts is what makes it possible for independents to offer bigger (percentage) discounts.
Sorry I meant the wholesale price. Individual retailers aren't typically willing to share what their wholesale price is (both because they agree with the manufacturer not to and because they don't want customers to know how much they are paying). The wholesale price on regular GW stuff is in the 40-45% range off retail (or has been historically). Direct only items that has significantly reduced, again it's hard to find specific values but I want to say around 10-20% off retail, but don't quote me on those numbers because it's hard to nail down concrete information on it. I do know it's significantly less because several shops have told me that it's not worth them bothering with direct only stuff because they barely make any money off it other than to make customers happy hoping they'll come back for other stuff. Some stores that offer discounts explicitly say they only offer discounts on stuff that isn't web/direct only because they can't afford to do so.
They are also limited on how much direct only stuff they can order. In the UK an independent can only order 500GBP worth of direct only stuff (based on retail price) I remember MWG complaining about it too and I think they said $500 worth of direct only stuff.
Right, trade price = wholesale price (the price that an FLGS pays). It's just what GW calls it on their order form, which my store has no problem sharing with me. In the example above, I took actual prices for Codex: Space Wolves and Space Marine Terminators Squad (they happen to be adjacent on the order form). The actual dolalr amounts are:
Wholesale Codex: Space Wolves is $27.23USD / $32.73 CAD ; MSRP is $49.50 USD / $59.50 CAD Wholesale Space Marine Terminators is $27.50 USD / $33.00 CAD ; MSRP is $50.00 USD / $60.00 CAD
That puts profit margin at exactly 45% for those two items. The other $49.50 (retail) codices are the same cost.
This should be obvious, but it means that with a 25% discount, a store will make 20% margin. Or, on a $1000 order $450, $300, $200, or $150, at retail, 15% discount, 25% discount and 30% discount, respectively. It's also why you rarely see discounts exceed 30% -- because the store has to make *something* right?
And you are right, there are some products which are essentially profitless for the store; my store has mentioned them before, though I can't think of one off the top of my head. They bring it in more as a service to their customers than anything else. Which is definitely crazy.
Accolade wrote: I've been approaching these rumors from the perspective of someone who's always been curious about Fantasy, but never got around to playing the game.
I'm interested in something different from 40k: a fantasy game that is more accessible in terms of cost to start-up compared to its predecessor and perhaps more simplistic in rules. But if it turns out that the Warhammer world is just a backwaters planet in 40k, then I end up right back in square one! (especially if the round bases thing turns out to be true and suddenly people want to play Lizardmen with their Space Marines... *shudder*)
I'm approaching in terms of someone who has collected Fantasy for nearly 20 years and thinks WHFB has always had better rules than 40k, they just dropped the ball on the last edition by having rules that encouraged massive armies instead of smaller armies. I haven't really played much since 7th edition (some of my armies haven't left the shelf, the ones that have it's only been for a couple of games in the past several years).
Regimental combat has always been the appeal of WHFB. In previous editions I even preferred WHFB over 40k for smaller games, I loved the Warhammer Warbands rules, which scale the game down to 100-500pts. Even at 750pts I found just the regular WHFB rules worked well.
I've always collected 40k because of the cool armies more than the rules, I've always collected WHFB because I thought it was the better game.
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Talys wrote: And you are right, there are some products which are essentially profitless for the store; my store has mentioned them before, though I can't think of one off the top of my head. They bring it in more as a service to their customers than anything else. Which is definitely crazy.
I think you'll find it's the direct only stuff. I know my FLGS (before it closed) hated GW for it because he made a decent sum of money from people ordering that sort of stuff off him, when they reduced the wholesale discount on direct only items it massively cut in to what he could make off new GW product (I don't think that's what made him close, but I know he disliked GW for many reasons and that was one of them, other reasons include them wanting him to order stock he didn't want or need and then having huge delays when he ordered things, I once waited over a month to get in a $400 Lizardmen order which I'm pretty sure I would have gotten within a week if I'd ordered from GW web store).
Accolade wrote: I've been approaching these rumors from the perspective of someone who's always been curious about Fantasy, but never got around to playing the game.
I'm interested in something different from 40k: a fantasy game that is more accessible in terms of cost to start-up compared to its predecessor and perhaps more simplistic in rules. But if it turns out that the Warhammer world is just a backwaters planet in 40k, then I end up right back in square one! (especially if the round bases thing turns out to be true and suddenly people want to play Lizardmen with their Space Marines... *shudder*)
I'm approaching in terms of someone who has collected Fantasy for nearly 20 years and thinks WHFB has always had better rules than 40k, they just dropped the ball on the last edition by having rules that encouraged massive armies instead of smaller armies. I haven't really played much since 7th edition (some of my armies haven't left the shelf, the ones that have it's only been for a couple of games in the past several years).
Regimental combat has always been the appeal of WHFB. In previous editions I even preferred WHFB over 40k for smaller games, I loved the Warhammer Warbands rules, which scale the game down to 100-500pts. Even at 750pts I found just the regular WHFB rules worked well.
Talys wrote: And you are right, there are some products which are essentially profitless for the store; my store has mentioned them before, though I can't think of one off the top of my head. They bring it in more as a service to their customers than anything else. Which is definitely crazy.
I think you'll find it's the direct only stuff. I know my FLGS (before it closed) hated GW for it because he made a decent sum of money from people ordering that sort of stuff off him, when they reduced the wholesale discount on direct only items it massively cut in to what he could make off new GW product (I don't think that's what made him close, but I know he disliked GW for many reasons and that was one of them, other reasons include them wanting him to order stock he didn't want or need and then having huge delays when he ordered things, I once waited over a month to get in a $400 Lizardmen order which I'm pretty sure I would have gotten within a week if I'd ordered from GW web store).
Allocations are another big issue.
GW: "Hot new $150 product! Will sell out instantly!"
Store: "Great, give me 20!"
GW: "No, you can't have that many. They're on allocation."
Store: "How many then?"
GW: "Don't know. Maybe none! We'll tell you next week!"
It drives both stores and customers totally nuts here, because you end up ordering something from everywhere to make sure you get it, and then, you end up having to cancel 4 of them. Or you can pay the undiscounted GW price. >.<
Maybe this potential atrocity is just depressing me too much, but I'm having a genuine Poe Moment here; are people seriously excited by this? People genuinely want to see GW tear down two decades+ of lore, and on top of that are happy at the prospect of fething Draigo making an appearance?
And if I'm not just having a sarcasm detector malfunction and people do actually think this is a good plan, I have to ask; why would you not just play WM/H or some other game? I don't mean that as a dig, I'm genuinely curious; if I wanted to play a game that had different background, different factions, different characters, and different rules to Warhammer Fantasy, I'd just play a different game. It seems even odder coming from people who see this as a chance "to finally get into Fantasy" - this won't be Fantasy any more in any real sense, and if you just wanted another GW game with skirmish rules LotR is widely acknowledged as having superior rules to both of GW's other products, so that option has existed for years.
pretre wrote: Draigo showed up already in a WHFB novel, didn't he?
Spoiler:
He showed up in Warhammer Khaine in the flavortext. He joined Araloth frolicking in Nurgle's Garden. Although he was not specifically named.
Spoiler:
Because of how vague the description was, it could of also been Sigmar in his dwarven armour. It would explain why a elf would describe his armour has looking "baroque" and since Sigmar is a Man who became a god he might just appear as a really powerful human well aiding Araloth in the garden of nurgle.
Spoiler:
He is a giant of a man in silver armour who walks the Realm of Chaos fighting deamons. He can't be killed and with a sweep of his hand explosions rip some attacking deamons apart. That sounds a lot like a Gray Knight using psy-ammunition if you ask me.
So Draigo becomes an even bigger Mary Sue (or Marty Stu or Gary Stu whichever term you prefer).
You know... there once was a rumor I think sometime last year that said down the pipes there were plans to allow you to use 40k armies in Fantasy, the better to allow you to buy anything and use it in whatever manner you choose. It was dismissed as insane nonsense.
Looking back though, mayhaps there was a grain of truth in it?
It'd be cool if the realm of chaos exists in both universes as the same thing but both fantasy and 40k are alternative realities or different universes where they can only interact through the chaos realm
I doubt they would, as it might affect negatively their cash cow. 40k would lose a lot of appeal if some dudes with bows, maces and chain mails appeared
Bronzefists42 wrote: A single Ork boy with two working shootas, 'eavy armor, and enough ammunition could probably kill hundreds of fantasy combatants in fluff terms.
Alternatively said Ork boy could die in agony to a skulking gobbos blade, take a musketball between the eyes or end up being vaporized by skaven warplightning, let alone being incinerated by a lowly shaman spell or just sat on by a giant!
Bronzefists42 wrote: A single Ork boy with two working shootas, 'eavy armor, and enough ammunition could probably kill hundreds of fantasy combatants in fluff terms.
Alternatively said Ork boy could die in agony to a skulking gobbos blade, take a musketball between the eyes or end up being vaporized by skaven warplightning, let alone being incinerated by a lowly shaman spell or just sat on by a giant!
mitch_rifle wrote: It'd be cool if the realm of chaos exists in both universes as the same thing but both fantasy and 40k are alternative realities or different universes where they can only interact through the chaos realm
That's how I see it. The Realm of Chaos/Warp is like The Bleed from DC. It's an extra-dimensional space that links the multiverse of GW.
Yodhrin wrote:Maybe this potential atrocity is just depressing me too much, but I'm having a genuine Poe Moment here; are people seriously excited by this? People genuinely want to see GW tear down two decades+ of lore, and on top of that are happy at the prospect of fething Draigo making an appearance?
And if I'm not just having a sarcasm detector malfunction and people do actually think this is a good plan, I have to ask; why would you not just play WM/H or some other game? I don't mean that as a dig, I'm genuinely curious; if I wanted to play a game that had different background, different factions, different characters, and different rules to Warhammer Fantasy, I'd just play a different game. It seems even odder coming from people who see this as a chance "to finally get into Fantasy" - this won't be Fantasy any more in any real sense, and if you just wanted another GW game with skirmish rules LotR is widely acknowledged as having superior rules to both of GW's other products, so that option has existed for years.
I agree entirely.
WayneTheGame wrote:So Draigo becomes an even bigger Mary Sue (or Marty Stu or Gary Stu whichever term you prefer).
You know... there once was a rumor I think sometime last year that said down the pipes there were plans to allow you to use 40k armies in Fantasy, the better to allow you to buy anything and use it in whatever manner you choose. It was dismissed as insane nonsense.
Looking back though, mayhaps there was a grain of truth in it?
There have been rumors of 40k/fantasy cross over as long as I've been collecting, I think it usually comes from random GW store staff.
Bronzefists42 wrote: A single Ork boy with two working shootas, 'eavy armor, and enough ammunition could probably kill hundreds of fantasy combatants in fluff terms.
Not really since guys on horses can have 1+ saves and 40k weapons don't alter armor saves due to strength values. On the other hand, cannons would take out whole units of terminators...
Edit:
Oops. Fluff terms. Probably not there either because many units laugh off empire cannon shots in the fluff or an elf would pepper him with magic arrows.
Not sure if this was posted/mentioned (apologies if it was) but this picture from today's post on GW site shows dwarf fighting in ranks with Ogres.
Wonder if it means anything for the future of both factions or if its merely an artistic concept. Have to say the ogres seem to fit in nicely with the little guys; almost an Age of Mythology like esthetic.
Yodhrin wrote: Maybe this potential atrocity is just depressing me too much, but I'm having a genuine Poe Moment here; are people seriously excited by this? People genuinely want to see GW tear down two decades+ of lore, and on top of that are happy at the prospect of fething Draigo making an appearance?
I'm not excited one bit about the idea of 40k working it's fingers into Fantasy. 40k already permeates almost everything GW produces, and their last remaining alternative game doesn't need to lose its "feel" just to become a pissant minor dirtball compared to every other world in 40k.
And if I'm not just having a sarcasm detector malfunction and people do actually think this is a good plan, I have to ask; why would you not just play WM/H or some other game? I don't mean that as a dig, I'm genuinely curious; if I wanted to play a game that had different background, different factions, different characters, and different rules to Warhammer Fantasy, I'd just play a different game. It seems even odder coming from people who see this as a chance "to finally get into Fantasy" - this won't be Fantasy any more in any real sense, and if you just wanted another GW game with skirmish rules LotR is widely acknowledged as having superior rules to both of GW's other products, so that option has existed for years.
Honestly, I like the WHFB miniatures a lot, as well as the fantasy setting (particularly the Wood Elves, Empire, and Vampire Counts). I suppose my interest in WHFB only grew up too late; by then 8th was in full swing and it became apparent just how much money I would have to sink into the game to just try it out. I know that this new game won't be Fantasy in the same sense. And I suppose that if GW were just to get games of WHFB back to scale with previous editions, I might be just as excited.
I do have to say I enjoy the "grimdarkening" of Fantasy a bit; it seems like it's shrouded up the edges of the world, giving it a sense of the unexplored (something I think 40k has always had going for it). I like the dire straits stuff too, whether it be in other products such as Kingdom Death or other post-apocalyptia. I still feel awful for the fans of traditional Fantasy, and I'm honestly not that expectant that what GW will put out won't be some excuse for them to charge you for things, later invalidate them, then force you to buy something else to stay current. I guess we'll just have to see.
Not sure if this was posted/mentioned (apologies if it was) but this picture from today's post on GW site shows dwarf fighting in ranks with Ogres.
Wonder if it means anything for the future of both factions or if its merely an artistic concept. Have to say the ogres seem to fit in nicely with the little guys; almost an Age of Mythology like esthetic.
What do you guys make of this?
Good catch, Hive City Dweller. I think GW is setting the stage for 9th more and more with the End Times stuff. By the time the new edition/game comes out, most of the army and background changes will already be apparent. Given that this army combination seems to match up with rumors (ogres with dwarves, maybe then mixed into Empire?), I'm starting to feel more and more confident that this stuff is going to come to pass.
Hive City Dweller wrote: Not sure if this was posted/mentioned (apologies if it was) but this picture from today's post on GW site shows dwarf fighting in ranks with Ogres.
Spoiler:
Wonder if it means anything for the future of both factions or if its merely an artistic concept. Have to say the ogres seem to fit in nicely with the little guys; almost an Age of Mythology like esthetic.
What do you guys make of this?
Last time I looked the Ogres had a Dogs of War/Mercenary rule, or its the allies rule with "artistic licence"
Yodhrin wrote: Maybe this potential atrocity is just depressing me too much, but I'm having a genuine Poe Moment here; are people seriously excited by this? People genuinely want to see GW tear down two decades+ of lore, and on top of that are happy at the prospect of fething Draigo making an appearance?
Hive City Dweller wrote: Not sure if this was posted/mentioned (apologies if it was) but this picture from today's post on GW site shows dwarf fighting in ranks with Ogres.
Wonder if it means anything for the future of both factions or if its merely an artistic concept. Have to say the ogres seem to fit in nicely with the little guys; almost an Age of Mythology like esthetic.
What do you guys make of this?
This image is showing visually what happens in the Rise of the Horned Rat (End Times: Thanquol). The Skaven clans finally unite and descend on the last great Dwarf holds, likely driving them close to extinction (along with the Ogres)...this will explain why neither race will have sole representation in Warhammer 9th (Super Bubbalicious Bubblehammer). They will get a side-note in the Alliance of Men (good guy army).
Ignoring the fact that Ogres eat sky titans and have the power of the great maw to devour their foes but will somehow be destroyed by little rats....I guess GW doesn't even bother reading their own fluff anymore.
agnosto wrote: Ignoring the fact that Ogres eat sky titans and have the power of the great maw to devour their foes but will somehow be destroyed by little rats....I guess GW doesn't even bother reading their own fluff anymore.
That was a united Ogre race that killed the Sky Titans though. Quite a lot of Ogres are killed in volcanic eruptions at the onset of the End Times, in addition to the tribes going their own way after rejecting Greasus Gold-tooth's rule. Don't see how its outside the realm of possibility that the separated and weakened Ogre race could get their butts kicked by a unified Skaven, rising up to claim their destiny.
agnosto wrote: Ignoring the fact that Ogres eat sky titans and have the power of the great maw to devour their foes but will somehow be destroyed by little rats....I guess GW doesn't even bother reading their own fluff anymore.
That was a united Ogre race that killed the Sky Titans though. Quite a lot of Ogres are killed in volcanic eruptions at the onset of the End Times, in addition to the tribes going their own way after rejecting Greasus Gold-tooth's rule. Don't see how its outside the realm of possibility that the separated and weakened Ogre race could get their butts kicked by a unified Skaven, rising up to claim their destiny.
Ogres weren't exactly united when they killed the Skytitans. There was no coordinated effort beyond basic pack hunting.
There are also a LOT of Ogres. They're not as numerous as other races, but they're hardly outnumbered thousands to one.
Besides, the Skaven Underempire isn't really near the Mountains of Mourn. Sure, they have tunnels there, but its not anywhere close to their main areas of operations. Nor are there many Dwarf holds in the Mountains. The mountains are simply far too dangerous for more than small numbers of any other races. The tunnels beneath the mountains are crawling with gorgers and other monsters. Ogres themselves avoid caves, that's how scary they are.
agnosto wrote: Ignoring the fact that Ogres eat sky titans and have the power of the great maw to devour their foes but will somehow be destroyed by little rats....I guess GW doesn't even bother reading their own fluff anymore.
That was a united Ogre race that killed the Sky Titans though. Quite a lot of Ogres are killed in volcanic eruptions at the onset of the End Times, in addition to the tribes going their own way after rejecting Greasus Gold-tooth's rule. Don't see how its outside the realm of possibility that the separated and weakened Ogre race could get their butts kicked by a unified Skaven, rising up to claim their destiny.
Ogres weren't exactly united when they killed the Skytitans. There was no coordinated effort beyond basic pack hunting.
There are also a LOT of Ogres. They're not as numerous as other races, but they're hardly outnumbered thousands to one.
Besides, the Skaven Underempire isn't really near the Mountains of Mourn. Sure, they have tunnels there, but its not anywhere close to their main areas of operations. Nor are there many Dwarf holds in the Mountains. The mountains are simply far too dangerous for more than small numbers of any other races. The tunnels beneath the mountains are crawling with gorgers and other monsters. Ogres themselves avoid caves, that's how scary they are.
I meant the Ogres were isolated and attacked as they came west, from the Mountains of Mourn, which they are abandoning. Either way, we'll find out in a few days. Pretty excited.
Yodhrin wrote: Maybe this potential atrocity is just depressing me too much, but I'm having a genuine Poe Moment here; are people seriously excited by this? People genuinely want to see GW tear down two decades+ of lore, and on top of that are happy at the prospect of fething Draigo making an appearance?
And if I'm not just having a sarcasm detector malfunction and people do actually think this is a good plan, I have to ask; why would you not just play WM/H or some other game? I don't mean that as a dig, I'm genuinely curious; if I wanted to play a game that had different background, different factions, different characters, and different rules to Warhammer Fantasy, I'd just play a different game. It seems even odder coming from people who see this as a chance "to finally get into Fantasy" - this won't be Fantasy any more in any real sense, and if you just wanted another GW game with skirmish rules LotR is widely acknowledged as having superior rules to both of GW's other products, so that option has existed for years.
Some people are going to love GW no matter what they do. Everything GW does will always be gold for them. It is sad to see what's probably going to happen to fantasy, just like it's sad to see what's already happened to LotR.
Hive City Dweller wrote: Not sure if this was posted/mentioned (apologies if it was) but this picture from today's post on GW site shows dwarf fighting in ranks with Ogres.
Spoiler:
Wonder if it means anything for the future of both factions or if its merely an artistic concept. Have to say the ogres seem to fit in nicely with the little guys; almost an Age of Mythology like esthetic.
What do you guys make of this?
I thought it was already called out that Ogre & Dwarf remnants work for the Empire.
In this case, instead of Nids eating the Squats, we have the Dorfs being driven out by Skaven. As usual. And Ogres being a minor power, return to being Empire instead of O&G (who have Trolls to fill the Ogre role).
Torga_DW wrote: Some people are going to love GW no matter what they do. Everything GW does will always be gold for them. It is sad to see what's probably going to happen to fantasy, just like it's sad to see what's already happened to LotR.
I can understand some people who weren't in to Fantasy being interested... but for people who do like Fantasy it feels a bit like saying "sorry your dog got run over by a truck, but maybe the guts will make some nice patterns on the road".
...if I wanted to play a game that had different background, different factions, different characters, and different rules to Warhammer Fantasy, I'd just play a different game. It seems even odder coming from people who see this as a chance "to finally get into Fantasy" - this won't be Fantasy any more in any real sense
*snips*
If you look at the name/font/logo on the End Times stuff (WARHAMMER), and the store in the South that was rebranded WARHAMMER (in the same style as the End Times stuff) it certainly looks like Warhammer Fantasy is being phased out.
Yodhrin wrote: I'm genuinely curious; if I wanted to play a game that had different background, different factions, different characters, and different rules to Warhammer Fantasy, I'd just play a different game. It seems even odder coming from people who see this as a chance "to finally get into Fantasy" - this won't be Fantasy any more in any real sense, and if you just wanted another GW game with skirmish rules LotR is widely acknowledged as having superior rules to both of GW's other products, so that option has existed for years.
Irrelevant, really. Those people who want to play Fantasy as it is (as well as those who want to play LotR) apparently are too few and far between, to make either game worth it.
Likewise, the much-hailed Kings of War game (better rules allegedly, cheaper miniatures, i.e. the things that would supposedly "save" WFB) by Mantic has new twice been their lowest, least successful Kickstarter (outside Loka) they did. There simply doesn't appear to be much, or sufficient demand for this type of game.
Whether GW kills WFB off full stop or kills off WFB and creates a new "Warhammer Dimensional Bubble Wars"-game that might allow you to play with your old WFB-models on round bases is a secondary concern.
Wonderwolf wrote: Those people who want to play Fantasy as it is (as well as those who want to play LotR) apparently are too few and far between, to make either game worth it.
Underlined the relevant part, just because there aren't enough people who want to play it "as it is" doesn't mean it should be killed or changed in to something completely different. I'd say the biggest fall in WHFB has been since 8th ed came out.
Trying to get into GW's perspective here:
WHFB isn't selling. Dumping the WHFB system and creating a new setting with a new name and new factions (9th) would be a real embaressment to players, investors and competitors as WHFB is really going a long way back.
Changing the WHFB system into this new setting and factions thing with a real 9th edition however could be seen (and will be sold to investors) as a bold move; it could bring in new customers (e.g. 40k players who like the squad based system and grimdark setting) and would give them a lot of opportunities for a new fantastic model range, maybe even with better proportions (one can hope).
Only downside: pissed off WHFB players, but they will come around probably and if not, they weren't the best buying customers to begin with as WHFB is not selling as it is now.
Your post stopped being meaningful right here This is the same GW who writes terrible rules. the same GW who is losing profits, the same GW who tried and failed and burned a lot of money trying to get CHS shut down, the same GW who has killed many of their best games (specialist games), the same GW who have dropped their stores to 1 man stores and moved OUT of high foot traffic areas, the same GW who tries to screw over the independents that they rely on to both move and promote their products.
Your post stopped being meaningful right here This is the same GW who writes terrible rules. the same GW who is losing profits, the same GW who tried and failed and burned a lot of money trying to get CHS shut down, the same GW who has killed many of their best games (specialist games), the same GW who have dropped their stores to 1 man stores and moved OUT of high foot traffic areas, the same GW who tries to screw over the independents that they rely on to both move and promote their products.
That's my point. They are losing money left an right, cutting where it's possible. They don't have the money to launch a new system AND retain the current WHFB IP, so merging it into a new system would make sense and is better than dropping the whole WHFB.
Or they could not burn their bridges and leave WHFB mostly the way it is (it could use some small fixes) and launch a side system based off the same IP or look at WHY WHFB isn't selling well when once upon a time it did sell.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Or they could not burn their bridges and leave WHFB mostly the way it is (it could use some small fixes) and launch a side system based off the same IP or look at WHY WHFB isn't selling well when once upon a time it did sell.
That'd be the worst of both worlds.
You'd have the cost of the huge WFB-inventory of miniatures-making-not-enough-money-to-pay-the-warehouse-space-they-sit-in AND the risk of launching a new game.
One of the reasons WFB once worked, not the only one, admittedly, was that the range was only 1/10th of what it is now.
To a lesser degree, it applies to 40K too (Adepta Sororitas, etc..). GW need to move beyond this strange sense of entitlement among its customers, who feel that only because a miniature was released once, it will be carried forever and rules will be updated over and over and over again ad infinitum, basically making it impossible for GW to phase out things that didn't work, which in turn curbs any incentive to try new things that might (or might not) work.
GW has to do SOMETHING, i completely understand that.
The commercial choices mentioned above are choices that many suppliers in all fields have made since the year 2000.
That does not make it good choices, but the same choices were made by many because it seemd a (commercially) good idea at the time.
Losing money on WHFB is not an option, losing money on GW-stores is not an option, losing money on anything is not an option, so they have to change.
I just hope the change will be a good one.
As a veteran player with many armies, I also hope the new version will not make everything i have collected irrelevant, but i highly doubt it. I expect some things to dissappear, but if WHFB dissappears as a whole, that would make even more old models and all the current GW models useless and that is not going to happen.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Or they could not burn their bridges and leave WHFB mostly the way it is (it could use some small fixes) and launch a side system based off the same IP or look at WHY WHFB isn't selling well when once upon a time it did sell.
They obviously don't have the money to continue support for WHFB AND launch a new system.
As they do no customer research, they have no "Why" for the low WHFB sales and merging WHFB into a new system with a new potential customer base offers better short term results and still maintaining the IP.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Or they could not burn their bridges and leave WHFB mostly the way it is (it could use some small fixes) and launch a side system based off the same IP or look at WHY WHFB isn't selling well when once upon a time it did sell.
They obviously don't have the money to continue support for WHFB AND launch a new system.
As they do no customer research, they have no "Why" for the low WHFB sales and merging WHFB into a new system with a new potential customer base offers better short term results and still maintaining the IP.
How much do you think that launching a new game would cost?
GW, even in decline, still generates close to 10 million pounds in profit every year.
Don't you think that that is enough money to launch a new game?
Right on, AllSeeingSkink. Have a couple of exalts.
Is it a bit specious to blame WFB players, too? Given that the size and cost of a current WFB army are given as reasons for it's decline, I'd say it's sort of admirable, in a way, if those left keep soldiering on at it, even starting new armies. (Deluded, blinkered, pants on head crazy, no notion of the value of money, but at the same time a bit admirable) Likewise, no blame laid at the feet of those who quit. They realised that with chopping and changing nonsensical rules, hiked up prices and/or army sizes, GW didn't care about them as gamers or even customers, so much as ambulatory wallets.
Nope, I know where I'd lay the blame for WFB disappearing down a hole.
ORicK wrote: but if WHFB dissappears as a whole, that would make even more old models and all the current GW models useless
No, it wouldn't
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One question about the background changes occurs to me, possibly the most important matter of the End Times: what happened to the halflings?
ORicK wrote: GW has to do SOMETHING, i completely understand that.
The commercial choices mentioned above are choices that many suppliers in all fields have made since the year 2000.
That does not make it good choices, but the same choices were made by many because it seemd a (commercially) good idea at the time.
Losing money on WHFB is not an option, losing money on GW-stores is not an option, losing money on anything is not an option, so they have to change.
I just hope the change will be a good one.
As a veteran player with many armies, I also hope the new version will not make everything i have collected irrelevant, but i highly doubt it. I expect some things to dissappear, but if WHFB dissappears as a whole, that would make even more old models and all the current GW models useless and that is not going to happen.
What they need to do is listen to their players but they refuse to have any sort of online interaction. And the only way you can honestly talk is pay £15- £25 pounds and even then it's limited. Some questions are ignored or even laughed of.
The main problem with GW was the new line deal. While in the beginning it was a shot of cash, it didn't last as long as they hoped Kirby and his ilk were accountants who managed to seize the company, they saw pound signs and he Intends to milk it and manipulate it for ever penny until it's a smoking hole.
Following problems have been removal of metal to finecast, thinking the internet was a fad, and the destruction of specialist games as well as certain armies.
From what I understand fantasy will be basically vaguely familiar to veterans with maybe 3-4 boxes being repurposed. Then have 3-6 month limited boxes. However they aren't my rumours
I do wonder if GW (stupidly) think that rejigging WHFB is going to bring in the sort of sales they got from LOTR when it was new.
I understand also that GW have to do SOMETHING... I just think rejigging a game is a stupid something to do. Especially if they follow their current strategy of not advertising and relying on independents/consumers to do much of their advertising for them while simultaneously pissing off independents/customers.
They're going to run out and try and get an influx of cash from rejigging WHFB while not addressing their problems and ultimately wasting money chasing money that's not sustainable (if it's there at all).
Likewise, the much-hailed Kings of War game (better rules allegedly, cheaper miniatures, i.e. the things that would supposedly "save" WFB) by Mantic has new twice been their lowest, least successful Kickstarter (outside Loka) they did. There simply doesn't appear to be much, or sufficient demand for this type of game.
This bugs me too. It sounds like you're adding two and two and feeling rather smug about coming up with five.
One: a lot of Mantic minis have their problems. It's something I've been disappointed with myself, though they seem to be improving a bit with that kickstarter. In any case there's more to minis than 'cheapness', and Mantic's quality problems are not an indication that Warhammer minis shouldn't be anything less than flick-your-bottom-lip-and-make-burbling-noises expensive, especially when it's constantly given as one of the main reasons players quit, on forums like this. Or don't you actually read Dakka? 'Cos you might find a whole lot of dissatisfaction handwaved away by GWombies as 'nerdrage'. This happens because:
Two: there is demand for this kind of game. People want to play it, and play Warhammer in particular (for some reason). They're mad because GW puts so many obstacles in their way, enough to put them off entirely. I don't think I can remember the last time I ever saw anyone say they quit because they just lost interest in regimental block maneuvre. It's almost always because of racheting prices (for individual boxes or whole armies), gratuitous rules shakeups that don't fix anything (usually the opposite) but force new purchases to keep up with the 'meta' (I swear this is the only game I've seen where that term is mentioned and worrying about it to such a degree is a thing), or because GW seems to think nobody'll notice it's favourite pastime of jumping up and down on puppies. It's been a consistently popular type of game with historicals (might've lost a little traction to skirmishes like Saga during the recession, but it's also been given a big shot in the arm by mass-produced plastics from various producers. Now why couldn't GW do something like oh waitaminnit...) and KoW, at least, seems to be pretty popular among a section of ex-WFB players here, and only becoming more popular. And that's just on this one GW-oriented forum. You think it's dead in the water, that the Kickstarter was unsuccessful. But did it fund?
Three: it funded at well over ten times the asking price. I dunno about you, but that sounds successful to me.
And four: on the subject of the other section of ex (or soon to be ex) WFB players, from my perspective... it could be said that they're not so much interested in mass battle gaming as they are in Warhammer. Partly in terms of fluff (but as Yodhrin says, that won't be 'Warhammer' for much longer), but also because GW has institutionalised so many gamers in little ways: to think that all this high-crunch, casualty removal, character-loadout, special-rules-for-everything-including-the-regimental-mascot bullgak adds essential 'character' and is the norm for mass battle games with 100-200+ minis per army (it's not, I assure you. KoWis much more like most other mass battle systems); that specific models can only be used in specific games or even specific roles in a game, otherwise they're useless (alas poor ORicK; I knew him well - in the form of an awful lot of other poor sods who can't grasp the the concept of using Warhammer minis for anything other than Warhammer rules); that GW shops are the only or the best place to game, and that anywhere else is a howling wasteland and it's too much work to phone a mate and have a game on a kitchen table shut up; that a game is only 'supported' if the rules are regularly scheduled to be arbitrarily shaken up and you need to buy more and more new stuff to keep up... and just because GW releases it for sale. And so on.
So yeah, there are gonna be people who quit Warhammer and don't move on to other mass battle games because reasons; but ultimately that's not the fault of mass battle gaming. Nor are the signs that WFB's on it's way out, also signs that the whole of mass battle gaming is going with it. (Oh, and that's another little bit of GW conditioning, BTW - conflating The GW HobbyTM with the wargaming hobby)
Wonderwolf wrote: GW need to move beyond this strange sense of entitlement among its customers...
I think they moved a decade ago. It's why vets feel disenfranchised. Entitlement thing has got to go on both sides.
Haven't you heard? The vets moved too. That's why WFB tanked.
And if you think 'quality product and non-lunatic prices' are the wants of an unreasonable sense of entitlement, then I'd like to sell you this tiger-repelling rock for the low low price of £315.73.
Think it's too high? I don't think it's too high. It's cheap compared to a car, or a house, or a private jet. I spend that amount on tiger-repelling rocks every month and I think they're worth every penny - I can absolutely say that since I started buying tiger-repelling rocks, no tigers have attacked me here in rural Ireland. If you don't like the price, maybe you should move along. Get out of here. It's a perfectly fair price for a rock. I don't care if you like the look of it - you can get your garden rockery somewhere else or not at all. Look, there's a pile of broken concrete you can use. This rock is for the true panthera-security-awareness enthusiast.
Bleedin' people with their sense of rock entitlement. Riff-raff.
So, Kings of War .. I'm assuming all the WFB armies are in KOW? Will my lizardmen and night goblin armies work in KOW? Will I get to use my skink bowmen again?
Necros wrote: So, Kings of War .. I'm assuming all the WFB armies are in KOW? Will my lizardmen and night goblin armies work in KOW? Will I get to use my skink bowmen again?
Not yet, later this year.
There will be a set of officially unofficial WHFB army lists created by the same group working on 2nd Ed. They almost certainly won't be legal at official Mantic tournaments.
I've actually done 80% of the High Elf one and maybe 30% of the Tomb King one already (first draft of course) whilst we await studio feedback on the main rules and the changes/additions to the official army lists.
Best bet for Lizardmen is to use the Orc list for Saurus and the Goblin list for Skinks in the mean time.
One: a lot of Mantic minis have their problems. It's something I've been disappointed with myself, though they seem to be improving a bit with that kickstarter. In any case there's more to minis than 'cheapness', and Mantic's quality problems are not an indication that Warhammer minis shouldn't be anything less than flick-your-bottom-lip-and-make-burbling-noises expensive, especially when it's constantly given as one of the main reasons players quit, on forums like this. Or don't you actually read Dakka? 'Cos you might find a whole lot of dissatisfaction handwaved away by GWombies as 'nerdrage'.
Mantic Games' specific problems, such as the quality of their miniatures and their relative price/quality appeal vs. GW-figures is true for all Mantic Games.
Nonetheless, their Sci-Fi and even their wonky stuff like DreadBall seem to tap into a far larger market, thus getting more customers as a % of that market who don't mind the Mantic-problems.
If, all Mantic-factors held constant, Kings of War is so much smaller relative to DreadBall, Deadzone, etc.. (where we have some numbers), we can assume that all GW-factors held constant, Warhammer Fantasy's "potential market" (i.e. even if they did everything right) is also by a similar amount smaller relative to 40K's "potential market", at the very least.
Your criticism of my points assumes I am comparing KoW vs. Warhammer. I am not. I am comparing Mantics Fantasy Battle Game vs. Mantics Sci-Fi Skirmish-to-large battle game to show that there generally seems to be a smaller market for the former, all quality/pricing concerns being equal. With that information, we can infer that GW's higher-priced/higher-quality miniatures game contents with the same relative market shares.
Vermis wrote: This bugs me too. It sounds like you're adding two and two and feeling rather smug about coming up with five.
You missed that Mantic's other KSs also target the board game market, which KoW doesn't
Then it would seem smart for GW's "new Fantasy" to target the board game market to a greater extend and leave the less juicy "no-board-gamers"-niche to whoever wants to have it?
Vermis wrote: This bugs me too. It sounds like you're adding two and two and feeling rather smug about coming up with five.
You missed that Mantic's other KSs also target the board game market, which KoW doesn't
Then it would seem smart for GW's "new Fantasy" to target the board game market to a greater extend and leave the less juicy "no-board-gamers"-niche to whoever wants to have it?
Maybe, not relevant though.
The point was that any market-based comparison you make for KoW versus other Mantic games doesn't work as they aren't selling in the same market.
The point was that any market-based comparison you make for KoW versus other Mantic games doesn't work as they aren't selling in the same market.
I know. That was my point. There are different markets and the market for KoW/WFB-style games is significantly smaller, independent of "rules-quality" or "miniature-prices".
The point was that any market-based comparison you make for KoW versus other Mantic games doesn't work as they aren't selling in the same market.
I know. That was my point. There are different markets and the market for KoW/WFB-style games is significantly smaller, independent of "rules-quality" or "miniature-prices".
But it wasn't as small as it is now. There's a lot of difference between abandoning a market that was killed by externalities (which appears to be what you're trying to argue) and abandoning a market that you killed through your own.......I'm going to say "lack of appropriate skills and understanding within the business" (which is what GW is doing).
If you do the second one without understanding what happened then there's a higher chance you're going to feth something else up in the future.
Then it would seem smart for GW's "new Fantasy" to target the board game market to a greater extend and leave the less juicy "no-board-gamers"-niche to whoever wants to have it?
Not really, GW's latest attempts to target the board game market have tanked even more spectacularly than 8th ed WHFB! See Deadfleet for reference.
I continue to argue that since every single one of their old rules writers left, GW currently lacks the skill and talent needed to create a tactically engaging game that is outside their "randomize everything" method of rules writing.
We agree wholeheartedly together with #8. I play Fantasy for huge scale battles, I've Malifaux for skirmish games & WM/H when My partner and i at any time acquire desperate.
Then it would seem smart for GW's "new Fantasy" to target the board game market to a greater extend and leave the less juicy "no-board-gamers"-niche to whoever wants to have it?
Not really, GW's latest attempts to target the board game market have tanked even more spectacularly than 8th ed WHFB! See Deadfleet for reference.
I continue to argue that since every single one of their old rules writers left, GW currently lacks the skill and talent needed to create a tactically engaging game that is outside their "randomize everything" method of rules writing.
True... though they did poach James Hewitt, so there might well be a few Jake Thornton James Hewitt-style games coming through (though I guess "new Warhammer" was written before he came on board). He assisted/playtested/marketed for Mantic precisely the kind of "semi-board games" that are going hot. Add GW-quality miniatures in a Space Hulk-priced/sized package... $$$
Either way, what difference does it make?
Will they feth up whatever they try to do next? 98% chance, yes they will.
Still better than the 100% guaranteed feth-up that is "old school" WFB.
I am still of the mind-set that the rumored game is NOT WHFB 9th edition, but a new skirmish level game set in the post End-Times. Hear me out....
1) The rumors contradict themselves by saying the core rules remain the same but now everything will be on round bases and in skirmish formations. By changing to default skirmish, this goes against saying the rules are "largely unchanged".
2) WHFB is largely done, as most of the armies have hardback 8th edition books. Additionally, the WHFB fanbase is largely happy with 8th edition as a ruleset. Many I know personally have said a new edition is simply not needed.
3) This one is the biggie for me. While WHFB army sales may be sluggish, End Times and the associated models has been extremely popular. Unfortunately, End Times has also gutted or severely disrupted a number of armies, both in the rules and in the fluff. If rumors of the future ET books are to believed, this will just continue at an accelerated rate. Any kind of post-End Times release would almost have to be something completely new, and GW may be using ET as a way to introduce a new system while still using the more popular ranges in the WHFB catelog. This will be GW's attempt at taking on the skirmish level game market that is becoming so popular, using an established IP and model range, adding to it as the game evolves. The cost for them initially is minimal, just a new rule book, as the expansive model range for WHFB allows them to pick and choose what existing fantasy models are available to the new factions.
4) This would allow GW to introduce the WHF setting to new players at a much lower price point, and allow existing WHFB players to get the occassional new model as they are introduced (with dual rule sets, one for the new game, one for the old). They double their target audience for each new fantasy release. If done right, this could end up being a win-win for everybody involved..
Then it would seem smart for GW's "new Fantasy" to target the board game market to a greater extend and leave the less juicy "no-board-gamers"-niche to whoever wants to have it?
Not really, GW's latest attempts to target the board game market have tanked even more spectacularly than 8th ed WHFB! See Deadfleet for reference.
I continue to argue that since every single one of their old rules writers left, GW currently lacks the skill and talent needed to create a tactically engaging game that is outside their "randomize everything" method of rules writing.
Does SpaceHulk count as a board game? People seem to like it, at least it sells well from what I hear. I've only played the version of SpaceHulk that came on 3.5" disks with a D-Rok soundtrack so I have no experience with the board game version.
I think one of the biggest issues with the decline of WHFB was that GW set themselves up for an inevitable fall in profits if not also with players, although that happened too apparently. The whole line just got too bloated. Too many armies, too many rules, too many minis etc. If the intent by GW was to always make a new edition ever 5 years or so then they never should have expanded the range the way they did. It's a logistical nightmare to have 10 army factions that each have to be updated every time a new edition gets released and to pile on expectations that each army update will include a new book, new units, new rules for the new units, updated rules for existing units, new sculpts of existing units and continued support for everything that from previous editions is even more masochist and crazy. If GW wanted to invest the time and resources to do that kind of comprehensive update for each faction for every new edition and play test everything enough to keep everything reasonably balanced then you get the problem of veteran players shelving armies because of invalidated rules, shifts in the meta, OOP models, etc. and speaking for myself, watching my Bret army get abandoned didn't make me want to go buy a new alternate army it just made me step away from fantasy. I'm not going to get into my issues other issues with 8th Ed and the overall aesthetics of the game because that's just subjective opinion but the enormous bloat in WHFB strikes me as an objective problem that GW ignored for too long and consequently now they're blowing it up and starting over.
).
as it wont feel like fantasy for me anymore.
, switch to other systems, and as I've said, they've got more than enough figures anyway.
. It's great that he knew this was coming, but it would've been hard to get all this out of his dropped hints.
