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 Yodhrin wrote:
I'm genuinely curious; if I wanted to play a game that had different background, different factions, different characters, and different rules to Warhammer Fantasy, I'd just play a different game. It seems even odder coming from people who see this as a chance "to finally get into Fantasy" - this won't be Fantasy any more in any real sense, and if you just wanted another GW game with skirmish rules LotR is widely acknowledged as having superior rules to both of GW's other products, so that option has existed for years.

Irrelevant, really. Those people who want to play Fantasy as it is (as well as those who want to play LotR) apparently are too few and far between, to make either game worth it.

Likewise, the much-hailed Kings of War game (better rules allegedly, cheaper miniatures, i.e. the things that would supposedly "save" WFB) by Mantic has new twice been their lowest, least successful Kickstarter (outside Loka) they did. There simply doesn't appear to be much, or sufficient demand for this type of game.

Whether GW kills WFB off full stop or kills off WFB and creates a new "Warhammer Dimensional Bubble Wars"-game that might allow you to play with your old WFB-models on round bases is a secondary concern.

Wonderwolf wrote:
Those people who want to play Fantasy as it is (as well as those who want to play LotR) apparently are too few and far between, to make either game worth it.

Underlined the relevant part, just because there aren't enough people who want to play it "as it is" doesn't mean it should be killed or changed in to something completely different. I'd say the biggest fall in WHFB has been since 8th ed came out.

Trying to get into GW's perspective here:
WHFB isn't selling. Dumping the WHFB system and creating a new setting with a new name and new factions (9th) would be a real embaressment to players, investors and competitors as WHFB is really going a long way back.
Changing the WHFB system into this new setting and factions thing with a real 9th edition however could be seen (and will be sold to investors) as a bold move; it could bring in new customers (e.g. 40k players who like the squad based system and grimdark setting) and would give them a lot of opportunities for a new fantastic model range, maybe even with better proportions (one can hope).
Only downside: pissed off WHFB players, but they will come around probably and if not, they weren't the best buying customers to begin with as WHFB is not selling as it is now.

 Hanskrampf wrote:
Trying to get into GW's perspective here:

Your post stopped being meaningful right here This is the same GW who writes terrible rules. the same GW who is losing profits, the same GW who tried and failed and burned a lot of money trying to get CHS shut down, the same GW who has killed many of their best games (specialist games), the same GW who have dropped their stores to 1 man stores and moved OUT of high foot traffic areas, the same GW who tries to screw over the independents that they rely on to both move and promote their products.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Hanskrampf wrote:
Trying to get into GW's perspective here:

Your post stopped being meaningful right here This is the same GW who writes terrible rules. the same GW who is losing profits, the same GW who tried and failed and burned a lot of money trying to get CHS shut down, the same GW who has killed many of their best games (specialist games), the same GW who have dropped their stores to 1 man stores and moved OUT of high foot traffic areas, the same GW who tries to screw over the independents that they rely on to both move and promote their products.

That's my point. They are losing money left an right, cutting where it's possible. They don't have the money to launch a new system AND retain the current WHFB IP, so merging it into a new system would make sense and is better than dropping the whole WHFB.

Or they could not burn their bridges and leave WHFB mostly the way it is (it could use some small fixes) and launch a side system based off the same IP or look at WHY WHFB isn't selling well when once upon a time it did sell.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Or they could not burn their bridges and leave WHFB mostly the way it is (it could use some small fixes) and launch a side system based off the same IP or look at WHY WHFB isn't selling well when once upon a time it did sell.

That'd be the worst of both worlds.

You'd have the cost of the huge WFB-inventory of miniatures-making-not-enough-money-to-pay-the-warehouse-space-they-sit-in AND the risk of launching a new game.

One of the reasons WFB once worked, not the only one, admittedly, was that the range was only 1/10th of what it is now.

To a lesser degree, it applies to 40K too (Adepta Sororitas, etc..). GW need to move beyond this strange sense of entitlement among its customers, who feel that only because a miniature was released once, it will be carried forever and rules will be updated over and over and over again ad infinitum, basically making it impossible for GW to phase out things that didn't work, which in turn curbs any incentive to try new things that might (or might not) work.

GW has to do SOMETHING, i completely understand that.

The commercial choices mentioned above are choices that many suppliers in all fields have made since the year 2000.
That does not make it good choices, but the same choices were made by many because it seemd a (commercially) good idea at the time.

Losing money on WHFB is not an option, losing money on GW-stores is not an option, losing money on anything is not an option, so they have to change.

I just hope the change will be a good one.

As a veteran player with many armies, I also hope the new version will not make everything i have collected irrelevant, but i highly doubt it. I expect some things to dissappear, but if WHFB dissappears as a whole, that would make even more old models and all the current GW models useless and that is not going to happen.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Or they could not burn their bridges and leave WHFB mostly the way it is (it could use some small fixes) and launch a side system based off the same IP or look at WHY WHFB isn't selling well when once upon a time it did sell.

They obviously don't have the money to continue support for WHFB AND launch a new system.
As they do no customer research, they have no "Why" for the low WHFB sales and merging WHFB into a new system with a new potential customer base offers better short term results and still maintaining the IP.

 Hanskrampf wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Or they could not burn their bridges and leave WHFB mostly the way it is (it could use some small fixes) and launch a side system based off the same IP or look at WHY WHFB isn't selling well when once upon a time it did sell.

They obviously don't have the money to continue support for WHFB AND launch a new system.
As they do no customer research, they have no "Why" for the low WHFB sales and merging WHFB into a new system with a new potential customer base offers better short term results and still maintaining the IP.

How much do you think that launching a new game would cost?

GW, even in decline, still generates close to 10 million pounds in profit every year.

Don't you think that that is enough money to launch a new game?

Right on, AllSeeingSkink. Have a couple of exalts.

Is it a bit specious to blame WFB players, too? Given that the size and cost of a current WFB army are given as reasons for it's decline, I'd say it's sort of admirable, in a way, if those left keep soldiering on at it, even starting new armies. (Deluded, blinkered, pants on head crazy, no notion of the value of money, but at the same time a bit admirable) Likewise, no blame laid at the feet of those who quit. They realised that with chopping and changing nonsensical rules, hiked up prices and/or army sizes, GW didn't care about them as gamers or even customers, so much as ambulatory wallets.

Nope, I know where I'd lay the blame for WFB disappearing down a hole.

ORicK wrote: but if WHFB dissappears as a whole, that would make even more old models and all the current GW models useless

No, it wouldn't

***

One question about the background changes occurs to me, possibly the most important matter of the End Times: what happened to the halflings?

ORicK wrote:
GW has to do SOMETHING, i completely understand that.

The commercial choices mentioned above are choices that many suppliers in all fields have made since the year 2000.
That does not make it good choices, but the same choices were made by many because it seemd a (commercially) good idea at the time.

Losing money on WHFB is not an option, losing money on GW-stores is not an option, losing money on anything is not an option, so they have to change.

I just hope the change will be a good one.

As a veteran player with many armies, I also hope the new version will not make everything i have collected irrelevant, but i highly doubt it. I expect some things to dissappear, but if WHFB dissappears as a whole, that would make even more old models and all the current GW models useless and that is not going to happen.

What they need to do is listen to their players but they refuse to have any sort of online interaction. And the only way you can honestly talk is pay £15- £25 pounds and even then it's limited. Some questions are ignored or even laughed of.

The main problem with GW was the new line deal. While in the beginning it was a shot of cash, it didn't last as long as they hoped Kirby and his ilk were accountants who managed to seize the company, they saw pound signs and he Intends to milk it and manipulate it for ever penny until it's a smoking hole.

Following problems have been removal of metal to finecast, thinking the internet was a fad, and the destruction of specialist games as well as certain armies.

From what I understand fantasy will be basically vaguely familiar to veterans with maybe 3-4 boxes being repurposed. Then have 3-6 month limited boxes. However they aren't my rumours

I do wonder if GW (stupidly) think that rejigging WHFB is going to bring in the sort of sales they got from LOTR when it was new.

I understand also that GW have to do SOMETHING... I just think rejigging a game is a stupid something to do. Especially if they follow their current strategy of not advertising and relying on independents/consumers to do much of their advertising for them while simultaneously pissing off independents/customers.

They're going to run out and try and get an influx of cash from rejigging WHFB while not addressing their problems and ultimately wasting money chasing money that's not sustainable (if it's there at all).

Wonderwolf wrote:
GW need to move beyond this strange sense of entitlement among its customers...

I think they moved a decade ago. It's why vets feel disenfranchised. Entitlement thing has got to go on both sides.

Personally I am looking forward to 9th.

Wonderwolf wrote:

Likewise, the much-hailed Kings of War game (better rules allegedly, cheaper miniatures, i.e. the things that would supposedly "save" WFB) by Mantic has new twice been their lowest, least successful Kickstarter (outside Loka) they did. There simply doesn't appear to be much, or sufficient demand for this type of game.

This bugs me too. It sounds like you're adding two and two and feeling rather smug about coming up with five.

One: a lot of Mantic minis have their problems. It's something I've been disappointed with myself, though they seem to be improving a bit with that kickstarter. In any case there's more to minis than 'cheapness', and Mantic's quality problems are not an indication that Warhammer minis shouldn't be anything less than flick-your-bottom-lip-and-make-burbling-noises expensive, especially when it's constantly given as one of the main reasons players quit, on forums like this. Or don't you actually read Dakka? 'Cos you might find a whole lot of dissatisfaction handwaved away by GWombies as 'nerdrage'. This happens because:

Two: there is demand for this kind of game. People want to play it, and play Warhammer in particular (for some reason). They're mad because GW puts so many obstacles in their way, enough to put them off entirely. I don't think I can remember the last time I ever saw anyone say they quit because they just lost interest in regimental block maneuvre. It's almost always because of racheting prices (for individual boxes or whole armies), gratuitous rules shakeups that don't fix anything (usually the opposite) but force new purchases to keep up with the 'meta' (I swear this is the only game I've seen where that term is mentioned and worrying about it to such a degree is a thing), or because GW seems to think nobody'll notice it's favourite pastime of jumping up and down on puppies. It's been a consistently popular type of game with historicals (might've lost a little traction to skirmishes like Saga during the recession, but it's also been given a big shot in the arm by mass-produced plastics from various producers. Now why couldn't GW do something like oh waitaminnit...) and KoW, at least, seems to be pretty popular among a section of ex-WFB players here, and only becoming more popular. And that's just on this one GW-oriented forum. You think it's dead in the water, that the Kickstarter was unsuccessful. But did it fund?

Three: it funded at well over ten times the asking price. I dunno about you, but that sounds successful to me.

And four: on the subject of the other section of ex (or soon to be ex) WFB players, from my perspective... it could be said that they're not so much interested in mass battle gaming as they are in Warhammer. Partly in terms of fluff (but as Yodhrin says, that won't be 'Warhammer' for much longer), but also because GW has institutionalised so many gamers in little ways: to think that all this high-crunch, casualty removal, character-loadout, special-rules-for-everything-including-the-regimental-mascot bullgak adds essential 'character' and is the norm for mass battle games with 100-200+ minis per army (it's not, I assure you. KoW is much more like most other mass battle systems); that specific models can only be used in specific games or even specific roles in a game, otherwise they're useless (alas poor ORicK; I knew him well - in the form of an awful lot of other poor sods who can't grasp the the concept of using Warhammer minis for anything other than Warhammer rules); that GW shops are the only or the best place to game, and that anywhere else is a howling wasteland and it's too much work to phone a mate and have a game on a kitchen table shut up; that a game is only 'supported' if the rules are regularly scheduled to be arbitrarily shaken up and you need to buy more and more new stuff to keep up... and just because GW releases it for sale. And so on.

So yeah, there are gonna be people who quit Warhammer and don't move on to other mass battle games because reasons; but ultimately that's not the fault of mass battle gaming. Nor are the signs that WFB's on it's way out, also signs that the whole of mass battle gaming is going with it. (Oh, and that's another little bit of GW conditioning, BTW - conflating The GW HobbyTM with the wargaming hobby)



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sheck2 wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:
GW need to move beyond this strange sense of entitlement among its customers...

I think they moved a decade ago. It's why vets feel disenfranchised. Entitlement thing has got to go on both sides.

Haven't you heard? The vets moved too. That's why WFB tanked.

And if you think 'quality product and non-lunatic prices' are the wants of an unreasonable sense of entitlement, then I'd like to sell you this tiger-repelling rock for the low low price of £315.73.

Think it's too high? I don't think it's too high. It's cheap compared to a car, or a house, or a private jet. I spend that amount on tiger-repelling rocks every month and I think they're worth every penny - I can absolutely say that since I started buying tiger-repelling rocks, no tigers have attacked me here in rural Ireland. If you don't like the price, maybe you should move along. Get out of here. It's a perfectly fair price for a rock. I don't care if you like the look of it - you can get your garden rockery somewhere else or not at all. Look, there's a pile of broken concrete you can use. This rock is for the true panthera-security-awareness enthusiast.

Bleedin' people with their sense of rock entitlement. Riff-raff.

Personally I am looking forward to 9th.

Enjoy it while it lasts.

 Vermis wrote:
This bugs me too. It sounds like you're adding two and two and feeling rather smug about coming up with five.

You missed that Mantic's other KSs also target the board game market, which KoW doesn't

Have an exalt, sir. Perfectly correct.

Very well said Vermis. Have an exalt.

Have another exalt Vermis. A very good point or few made there

So, Kings of War .. I'm assuming all the WFB armies are in KOW? Will my lizardmen and night goblin armies work in KOW? Will I get to use my skink bowmen again?

 Necros wrote:
So, Kings of War .. I'm assuming all the WFB armies are in KOW? Will my lizardmen and night goblin armies work in KOW? Will I get to use my skink bowmen again?

Not yet, later this year.

There will be a set of officially unofficial WHFB army lists created by the same group working on 2nd Ed. They almost certainly won't be legal at official Mantic tournaments.

I've actually done 80% of the High Elf one and maybe 30% of the Tomb King one already (first draft of course) whilst we await studio feedback on the main rules and the changes/additions to the official army lists.

Best bet for Lizardmen is to use the Orc list for Saurus and the Goblin list for Skinks in the mean time.

 Vermis wrote:


One: a lot of Mantic minis have their problems. It's something I've been disappointed with myself, though they seem to be improving a bit with that kickstarter. In any case there's more to minis than 'cheapness', and Mantic's quality problems are not an indication that Warhammer minis shouldn't be anything less than flick-your-bottom-lip-and-make-burbling-noises expensive, especially when it's constantly given as one of the main reasons players quit, on forums like this. Or don't you actually read Dakka? 'Cos you might find a whole lot of dissatisfaction handwaved away by GWombies as 'nerdrage'.

Mantic Games' specific problems, such as the quality of their miniatures and their relative price/quality appeal vs. GW-figures is true for all Mantic Games.

Nonetheless, their Sci-Fi and even their wonky stuff like DreadBall seem to tap into a far larger market, thus getting more customers as a % of that market who don't mind the Mantic-problems.

If, all Mantic-factors held constant, Kings of War is so much smaller relative to DreadBall, Deadzone, etc.. (where we have some numbers), we can assume that all GW-factors held constant, Warhammer Fantasy's "potential market" (i.e. even if they did everything right) is also by a similar amount smaller relative to 40K's "potential market", at the very least.

Your criticism of my points assumes I am comparing KoW vs. Warhammer. I am not. I am comparing Mantics Fantasy Battle Game vs. Mantics Sci-Fi Skirmish-to-large battle game to show that there generally seems to be a smaller market for the former, all quality/pricing concerns being equal. With that information, we can infer that GW's higher-priced/higher-quality miniatures game contents with the same relative market shares.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Baragash wrote:

 Vermis wrote:
This bugs me too. It sounds like you're adding two and two and feeling rather smug about coming up with five.

You missed that Mantic's other KSs also target the board game market, which KoW doesn't

Then it would seem smart for GW's "new Fantasy" to target the board game market to a greater extend and leave the less juicy "no-board-gamers"-niche to whoever wants to have it?

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Baragash wrote:

 Vermis wrote:
This bugs me too. It sounds like you're adding two and two and feeling rather smug about coming up with five.

You missed that Mantic's other KSs also target the board game market, which KoW doesn't

Then it would seem smart for GW's "new Fantasy" to target the board game market to a greater extend and leave the less juicy "no-board-gamers"-niche to whoever wants to have it?

Maybe, not relevant though.

The point was that any market-based comparison you make for KoW versus other Mantic games doesn't work as they aren't selling in the same market.

 Baragash wrote:


Maybe, not relevant though.

The point was that any market-based comparison you make for KoW versus other Mantic games doesn't work as they aren't selling in the same market.

I know. That was my point. There are different markets and the market for KoW/WFB-style games is significantly smaller, independent of "rules-quality" or "miniature-prices".

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Baragash wrote:


Maybe, not relevant though.

The point was that any market-based comparison you make for KoW versus other Mantic games doesn't work as they aren't selling in the same market.

I know. That was my point. There are different markets and the market for KoW/WFB-style games is significantly smaller, independent of "rules-quality" or "miniature-prices".

But it wasn't as small as it is now. There's a lot of difference between abandoning a market that was killed by externalities (which appears to be what you're trying to argue) and abandoning a market that you killed through your own.......I'm going to say "lack of appropriate skills and understanding within the business" (which is what GW is doing).

If you do the second one without understanding what happened then there's a higher chance you're going to feth something else up in the future.

Wonderwolf wrote:

Then it would seem smart for GW's "new Fantasy" to target the board game market to a greater extend and leave the less juicy "no-board-gamers"-niche to whoever wants to have it?

Not really, GW's latest attempts to target the board game market have tanked even more spectacularly than 8th ed WHFB! See Deadfleet for reference.

I continue to argue that since every single one of their old rules writers left, GW currently lacks the skill and talent needed to create a tactically engaging game that is outside their "randomize everything" method of rules writing.

We agree wholeheartedly together with #8. I play Fantasy for huge scale battles, I've Malifaux for skirmish games & WM/H when My partner and i at any time acquire desperate.

PhantomViper wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:

Then it would seem smart for GW's "new Fantasy" to target the board game market to a greater extend and leave the less juicy "no-board-gamers"-niche to whoever wants to have it?

Not really, GW's latest attempts to target the board game market have tanked even more spectacularly than 8th ed WHFB! See Deadfleet for reference.

I continue to argue that since every single one of their old rules writers left, GW currently lacks the skill and talent needed to create a tactically engaging game that is outside their "randomize everything" method of rules writing.

True... though they did poach James Hewitt, so there might well be a few Jake Thornton James Hewitt-style games coming through (though I guess "new Warhammer" was written before he came on board). He assisted/playtested/marketed for Mantic precisely the kind of "semi-board games" that are going hot. Add GW-quality miniatures in a Space Hulk-priced/sized package... $$$

Either way, what difference does it make?

Will they feth up whatever they try to do next? 98% chance, yes they will.

Still better than the 100% guaranteed feth-up that is "old school" WFB.

I am still of the mind-set that the rumored game is NOT WHFB 9th edition, but a new skirmish level game set in the post End-Times. Hear me out....

1) The rumors contradict themselves by saying the core rules remain the same but now everything will be on round bases and in skirmish formations. By changing to default skirmish, this goes against saying the rules are "largely unchanged".

2) WHFB is largely done, as most of the armies have hardback 8th edition books. Additionally, the WHFB fanbase is largely happy with 8th edition as a ruleset. Many I know personally have said a new edition is simply not needed.

3) This one is the biggie for me. While WHFB army sales may be sluggish, End Times and the associated models has been extremely popular. Unfortunately, End Times has also gutted or severely disrupted a number of armies, both in the rules and in the fluff. If rumors of the future ET books are to believed, this will just continue at an accelerated rate. Any kind of post-End Times release would almost have to be something completely new, and GW may be using ET as a way to introduce a new system while still using the more popular ranges in the WHFB catelog. This will be GW's attempt at taking on the skirmish level game market that is becoming so popular, using an established IP and model range, adding to it as the game evolves. The cost for them initially is minimal, just a new rule book, as the expansive model range for WHFB allows them to pick and choose what existing fantasy models are available to the new factions.

4) This would allow GW to introduce the WHF setting to new players at a much lower price point, and allow existing WHFB players to get the occassional new model as they are introduced (with dual rule sets, one for the new game, one for the old). They double their target audience for each new fantasy release. If done right, this could end up being a win-win for everybody involved..

Anyway, that's my theory.

PhantomViper wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:

Then it would seem smart for GW's "new Fantasy" to target the board game market to a greater extend and leave the less juicy "no-board-gamers"-niche to whoever wants to have it?

Not really, GW's latest attempts to target the board game market have tanked even more spectacularly than 8th ed WHFB! See Deadfleet for reference.

I continue to argue that since every single one of their old rules writers left, GW currently lacks the skill and talent needed to create a tactically engaging game that is outside their "randomize everything" method of rules writing.

Does SpaceHulk count as a board game? People seem to like it, at least it sells well from what I hear. I've only played the version of SpaceHulk that came on 3.5" disks with a D-Rok soundtrack so I have no experience with the board game version.

I think one of the biggest issues with the decline of WHFB was that GW set themselves up for an inevitable fall in profits if not also with players, although that happened too apparently. The whole line just got too bloated. Too many armies, too many rules, too many minis etc. If the intent by GW was to always make a new edition ever 5 years or so then they never should have expanded the range the way they did. It's a logistical nightmare to have 10 army factions that each have to be updated every time a new edition gets released and to pile on expectations that each army update will include a new book, new units, new rules for the new units, updated rules for existing units, new sculpts of existing units and continued support for everything that from previous editions is even more masochist and crazy. If GW wanted to invest the time and resources to do that kind of comprehensive update for each faction for every new edition and play test everything enough to keep everything reasonably balanced then you get the problem of veteran players shelving armies because of invalidated rules, shifts in the meta, OOP models, etc. and speaking for myself, watching my Bret army get abandoned didn't make me want to go buy a new alternate army it just made me step away from fantasy. I'm not going to get into my issues other issues with 8th Ed and the overall aesthetics of the game because that's just subjective opinion but the enormous bloat in WHFB strikes me as an objective problem that GW ignored for too long and consequently now they're blowing it up and starting over.