So if you like WHFB, you really want 9th to succeed, even if it maybe doesn't tick every single box for you. Because if it crashes and burns, there's no guarantee there's going to be a 10th. I know my group and I will still play if that happened, but i know a lot of people can't say the same.
Ehm....no? That's the entirely false mindset. If you like WHFB, then you play WHFB. That's it. If 9th should turn out to suck, then don't play it and stick to 8th instead. Or any other edition you feel comfortable with.
So if you like WHFB, you really want 9th to succeed, even if it maybe doesn't tick every single box for you. Because if it crashes and burns, there's no guarantee there's going to be a 10th. I know my group and I will still play if that happened, but i know a lot of people can't say the same.
Ehm....no? That's the entirely false mindset. If you like WHFB, then you play WHFB. That's it. If 9th should turn out to suck, then don't play it and stick to 8th instead. Or any other edition you feel comfortable with.
Exactly - seeing a shambling horror of a game, and being told 'Well, at least it's Warhammer, right?' does not make it any less of a shambolic mess.
To go to the far end of hyperbole... If your wife is brutally murdered, and some necromancer robs her grave and you wake up next to her reanimated, but still rotting corpse - with none of the personality that you loved, just the worm raddled flesh... you don't celebrate the fact that she is back.
How was that for over the top hyperbole?
But, honestly, what I am hearing does not make me see 9th edition as a good thing.... It sounds like a huge pile of suck, at this point. (And 8th was a big enough pile of suck to make Kings of War very popular in my area.)
So if you like WHFB, you really want 9th to succeed, even if it maybe doesn't tick every single box for you. Because if it crashes and burns, there's no guarantee there's going to be a 10th.
I have one response to that.
Spoiler:
Again fair point, but i think there's a significant number of people that would disagree (witty michael caine jpeg aside, even, at that).
Yes there are other rule sets to use your minis out there, but again, I have a feeling that woudl end up being the exception and not the rule. It would also be very hard to recruit new players into that scene as opposed to other games with active communitys that are stll supported by the manufacturer, etc.
So if you like WHFB, you really want 9th to succeed, even if it maybe doesn't tick every single box for you. Because if it crashes and burns, there's no guarantee there's going to be a 10th. I know my group and I will still play if that happened, but i know a lot of people can't say the same.
Ehm....no? That's the entirely false mindset. If you like WHFB, then you play WHFB. That's it. If 9th should turn out to suck, then don't play it and stick to 8th instead. Or any other edition you feel comfortable with.
Nothing about what i wrote said you can't. What i was inferring and that I think you missed is that if you want continued manufacturer support of any kind (note the rumors stated that the skirmish models would be playable in one or more regimental sized armies), then you probably want 9th to succeed, or there may not be a tenth, given the dire straits the game is in.
My playgroup is in the exact same boat ; if we don't like 9th, we'll continue with 8th, so i agree with you.
Sheesh. No fething wonder GW doesn't interact with its fan base.
So if you like WHFB, you really want 9th to succeed, even if it maybe doesn't tick every single box for you. Because if it crashes and burns, there's no guarantee there's going to be a 10th. I know my group and I will still play if that happened, but i know a lot of people can't say the same.
Ehm....no? That's the entirely false mindset. If you like WHFB, then you play WHFB. That's it. If 9th should turn out to suck, then don't play it and stick to 8th instead. Or any other edition you feel comfortable with.
Exactly - seeing a shambling horror of a game, and being told 'Well, at least it's Warhammer, right?' does not make it any less of a shambolic mess.
To go to the far end of hyperbole... If your wife is brutally murdered, and some necromancer robs her grave and you wake up next to her reanimated, but still rotting corpse - with none of the personality that you loved, just the worm raddled flesh... you don't celebrate the fact that she is back.
How was that for over the top hyperbole?
But, honestly, what I am hearing does not make me see 9th edition as a good thing.... It sounds like a huge pile of suck, at this point. (And 8th was a big enough pile of suck to make Kings of War very popular in my area.)
The Auld Grump
To be 100% fair, i'm not loving what i hear either.
The most current rumors made me more comfortable than i was before. Hence my playgroups trepidation.
Honestly, my entire original point was that the situation seemed slightly better than it had 48 hours ago.
That's all.
I don't personally think WHFB as a skirmish game is going to work if the ruleset (very beer and pretzel-y) is as loose as their other games. Skirmish games tend to require tight rule sets to work, and i don't think GW can support that.
All just hunches / opinion.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, this: some minor details of the 9th starter boxed set.... most of this is rehash, but a couple interesting nuggets:
Thats a really bizarre way of looking at it Haight.
I can try to understand your point of view and concerns about wfb continuity into the 10th... But I fail to comprehend how my investment into a product I do not like will create something I will enjoy in the future. I think the logic and common sense on this will tell you exactly the opposite.
People have models, regiments and huge armies, believe me when I say its easier to switch companies rulebooks than is to trash your collections and start all over again. Its a clear cut that the one losing the train here will be GW.
ET was interesting for a bit of time but the book spam, no matter how good they are is a major turn off for me, are we collecting minis or books here? If its books screw GW rulebooks and I will go for actual artbooks instead. The rumor hints not for one rulebook but a sum of books... In my opinion the high price of books for all factions is one of the major problems with WFB. People will not spend that money just to satisfy their curiosity about other factions and as consequence they will never collect other armies. I sense an incoming wave of book spam for lots of bubbles. I hope Im wrong there but I can tell you that , like finecast, I will not support things I do not agree with.
Alpharius wrote: I thnk from just what we've seen/heard/hinted at so far goes beyond just a 10% change...
Right. I'm sure the guy is approximating but I think his point is that "it's mostly staying the same". That's what's worth being happy about if (big IF) its true.
Maybe it's 87.6529 % similar ?
Let's all remember too, that allegedly according to a few different rumors in the past few weeks, they almost shut Fantasy down completely ! I forget where that was stated, but i remember reading it on a couple different sites regarding 9th rumors. I don't find it that thard to believe if the 8% of profits for the company is true. That's.... lean profit wise.
So if you like WHFB, you really want 9th to succeed, even if it maybe doesn't tick every single box for you. Because if it crashes and burns, there's no guarantee there's going to be a 10th. I know my group and I will still play if that happened, but i know a lot of people can't say the same.
It's only "roughly 90% the same" if you consider "Warhammer Fantasy" to be a set of rules. I don't give a flying fig about "Warhammer Fantasy Battle" - people have been saying for years now, ever since they let Mordheim fade into the background and then dropped it completely, that Warhammer needed a skirmish-level entry game - I care about Warhammer Fantasy, the IP; the world, the fiction, the factions. Saying "Oh well, you can counts-as for one of the new factions" means nothing to me, because I can "counts as" my Warhammer models in Kings of War, or half a dozen other fantasy rulesets, or just play older editions if the rules are my problem - my problem is GW will no longer be producing models that fit the aesthetics of the existing factions, or fiction set in the world I like with the characters, nations, and armies I like.
And you know what? Yeah, I'll say it; I would rather Warhammer Fantasy "dies" like the Specialist Games did and essentially gets taken over by the community, than see it "die" as it will if these rumours bear out and GW shred a thirty year old IP for another temporary sales boost to fatten Kirby's retirement fund. At least then there would be a chance it could return in a more hopeful future when the company is under better management, or would at least be available intact in its present form to be bought up if the company ever does go under/gets bought out.
Because I got the opposite reaction from reading that!
Well they said the rules would be staying 90% the same, and round bases would just be for distinct unit types (i think warmachines - fine with that, though concerning about stuff like bells and censors and such that go in units, skirmishers - fine with this, and sometimes characters.... m'kay this needs clarification).
Basically the old factions will still be viable but not as immediately supported. THe game will now have a (vis-a-vis Rag'Na'Rok like) high scale and low scale game to it. Fine with this.
For a while the game will focus on supporting the low scale portion of the game. Understandable, it's brand new.
And it will be a while before the high scale sees much support. Also okay with this becasue...
.... the low scale minis will be useable at high scale in at least one "old" army. If i read that right. Some of the Eng(mang)lish was a bit hard to parse.
The bummer points: Brets and Beasts probably not getting a new book. That very much sucks. :(
So.... yeah. if 9th is 90% of 8th (which ostensibly, magic phase aside, is a good edition), and doesn't wall paper my tens of thousands of points of models. Yup, i'm feeling much more comfortable.
You do realize that this:
If you have an old army you can still play it, but it may effectively become an “orphan” in the new system, workable – but with little to no forward support in the new game.
Means that all of this in your signature:
High Elves: ~ 7500 (it's a sickness...)
Ogre Kingdoms: 3600
Host of the Eternity King: 12994 + magic items
Chaos Dwarves: ~3500 (6-7k if you play with the ogre slave rules).
Just effectively became the fantasy equivalent of Sisters of Battle. No new rules, no new rulebooks, no new models. I just say this because I'm in the same boat with about as many points in Ogres and Vampire Counts. It's depressing and angering at the same time. If true, they're really not "squatting" our armies, they're just shoving them off to the side. We'll probably be able to use some of the models from them with the new factions (however many there winds up but being) but the majority will likely become paperweight. This forces a decision; give GW the finger, sell out/bin the armies and walk away, play 8th edition if you have enough like-minded people, or shoehorn your armies in with one of the generic rule-sets out there and hope you find enough of a community to play. Like I said, if true, depressing and angering; for me anyway.
NAVARRO wrote: Thats a really bizarre way of looking at it Haight.
I can try to understand your point of view and concerns about wfb continuity into the 10th... But I fail to comprehend how my investment into a product I do not like will create something I will enjoy in the future.
Okay... i'll try this again.
No one is saying that yo should buy something you don't like. However if you want to see continued manufacturer support for Warhammer Fantasy Battle, you probably should hope that 9th is at least somewhat successful. Or there is the very real risk that it could be dropped altogether... and if so, knowing how GW treats other IP's, it probably won't come back (see also Mordheim and Necromunda / gorka morka, with counterpoint being space hulk, but i'm pretty sure SH always sold well, yes ?) You probably should, even if you don't like 9th's skirmish thing very much, hope that it succeeds, unless you're like Yohdrin and are okay with the entire franchise and IP expiring. If so, then yeah, you probably won't care one way or another.
I think the logic and common sense on this will tell you exactly the opposite.
No really. I have seen some logical arguments in this thread, and i've usually responded to them with soemething akin to "valid" or "fair point" or some such, even if i don't agree with them. Mostly it's been anecodotal soapboxing or hyperbole spouting though.
People have models, regiments and huge armies, believe me when I say its easier to switch companies rulebooks than is to trash your collections and start all over again. Its a clear cut that the one losing the train here will be GW.
Again, you can do that. There are two problems here though: 1) if WHFB dries up those games are going to branch off and do their own thing, not just mimic what WHFB is doing with cheaper models, as they'll have zero impetus to do that anymore. So ergo, as time marches on, you'll have less and less of a spot on match with company #2 than GW. Not saying you can't do this, you totally can ; but as time goes on, i think there will be less synergy between say GW Dwarfs and Mantic Dwarfs for instance.
ET was interesting for a bit of time but the book spam, no matter how good they are is a major turn off for me, are we collecting minis or books here?
This is entirely your opinion, so that makes it valid. I disagree. I think the books are gorgeous, as are most of the minis they've released, if perhaps the minis rules haven't been outstanding all the time.
If its books screw GW rulebooks and I will go for actual artbooks instead.
Part of the appeal of the end times books product is that they are a nice quasi-coffee table book quality book. There were numerous threads where people expressed concern that they had 1-2 or 1-3 in hardcover, and wanted to make sure that they could get Thanquol and eventually archaon in hardcover. Granted in terms of art, the artbooks are better, but these kind of combine an art book with a pretty compelling story (some of it is silly, yes, but generally it's written pretty well, shooting down moons aside, in my opinion).
The rumor hints not for one rulebook but a sum of books... In my opinion the high price of books for all factions is one of the major problems with WFB. People will not spend that money just to satisfy their curiosity about other factions and as consequence they will never collect other armies. I sense an incoming wave of book spam for lots of bubbles. I hope Im wrong there but I can tell you that , like finecast, I will not support things I do not agree with.
I am thinking that there will be a core rule book, and then like with island of blood a pamphlet-esque thing that comes with all the starters giving some fluffy background, a bit of info, and some general low lying fruit game play tips. Just a hunch. In the old days, the starter sets used to come with multiple books. Digging deep here... but i think 2nd ed 40k came with a stats rulebook. They might, in lieu of such big changes, do the same thing here. In fact, i kind of thing they would have to one way or the other, but then again, maybe not.
Because I got the opposite reaction from reading that!
Well they said the rules would be staying 90% the same, and round bases would just be for distinct unit types (i think warmachines - fine with that, though concerning about stuff like bells and censors and such that go in units, skirmishers - fine with this, and sometimes characters.... m'kay this needs clarification).
Basically the old factions will still be viable but not as immediately supported. THe game will now have a (vis-a-vis Rag'Na'Rok like) high scale and low scale game to it. Fine with this.
For a while the game will focus on supporting the low scale portion of the game. Understandable, it's brand new.
And it will be a while before the high scale sees much support. Also okay with this becasue...
.... the low scale minis will be useable at high scale in at least one "old" army. If i read that right. Some of the Eng(mang)lish was a bit hard to parse.
The bummer points: Brets and Beasts probably not getting a new book. That very much sucks. :(
So.... yeah. if 9th is 90% of 8th (which ostensibly, magic phase aside, is a good edition), and doesn't wall paper my tens of thousands of points of models. Yup, i'm feeling much more comfortable.
You do realize that this:
If you have an old army you can still play it, but it may effectively become an “orphan” in the new system, workable – but with little to no forward support in the new game.
Means that all of this in your signature:
High Elves: ~ 7500 (it's a sickness...)
Ogre Kingdoms: 3600
Host of the Eternity King: 12994 + magic items
Chaos Dwarves: ~3500 (6-7k if you play with the ogre slave rules).
Just effectively became the fantasy equivalent of Sisters of Battle. No new rules, no new rulebooks, no new models. I just say this because I'm in the same boat with about as many points in Ogres and Vampire Counts. It's depressing and angering at the same time. If true, they're really not "squatting" our armies, they're just shoving them off to the side. We'll probably be able to use some of the models from them with the new factions (however many there winds up but being) but the majority will likely become paperweight. This forces a decision; give GW the finger, sell out/bin the armies and walk away, play 8th edition if you have enough like-minded people, or shoehorn your armies in with one of the generic rule-sets out there and hope you find enough of a community to play. Like I said, if true, depressing and angering; for me anyway.
Except for that whole part about "all the old armies are still playable, just won't have immediate new support for a while". Ya know, except that whole part about "all the new skirmish models will be useable in at least one of the old armies, maybe more" thing too
Because I got the opposite reaction from reading that!
He said about 90% would be the same. That should be at least a little reassuring. He also said (or suggested) that old armies would still be useable in some fashion.
But you must admit that Fantasy needs to lower the price of admission for new players and moving to a skirmish style game engine will do just that.
Exactly !
What' Fantasy's biggest problem ? Multiple barriers to entry, the first being cost. Other than Island of Blood, what does your average fantasy army cost including rule books ? 600+ bucks if bought at MSRP ? That's huge. That's probably the number one reason why Fantasy has been losing players.
If they introduce a skirmish game within the game, with models that are backwards compatible into the regiment scale game, then that's a decent shot at breaking that barrier for those interested in the game.
Note they are taking other barrier to entry reducing methods too ; 50% in lords and heroes in End Times is a directly corrolating model count reducing move at the same time allowing them to uptick and upcreep the points cost of heroes and lords.
Have you seen the costs of the character models? Averaging from 15- 25 per, USD.
Except for that whole part about "all the old armies are still playable, just won't have immediate new support for a while". Ya know, except that whole part about "all the new skirmish models will be useable in at least one of the old armies, maybe more" thing too
I hope that you'll pardon my pessimism when I say that. Yes, it does say all of that but then tales it all away by saying that the old armies become "orphans" with little to no support going forward. I don't really know how I can take that any other way than to mean that initially, I'll be able to remain "competitive" (note, I use this term to mean viable against supported armies) but over time the supported, new factions will get all the love, new toys and ultimately leave my old armies behind. This appears to not be an "adopt or die" but rather "adopt or slide into oblivion" scenario. I played Tau in 5th and remember this all too well and I'm sure that Sisters of Battle players can tell you exactly how this feels now. The problem here is that GWs model of game development does not support all factions or all units being on an equal footing between updates.
Nothing about what i wrote said you can't. What i was inferring and that I think you missed is that if you want continued manufacturer support of any kind (note the rumors stated that the skirmish models would be playable in one or more regimental sized armies), then you probably want 9th to succeed, or there may not be a tenth, given the dire straits the game is in.
That's how it should be. What use is the "support" of a developer if the "support" is utter garbage?
If you "support" a game or rather its most recent iteration, then all you say is that you fully support and love the direction the game takes. If you don't, then you don't. When it comes to buying stuff or not, there is no middle ground...you either pay or you don't. If you pay, you fully agree with everything the developer / manufacturer does in his eyes. If you don't, you don't.
No one is saying that yo should buy something you don't like. However if you want to see continued manufacturer support for Warhammer Fantasy Battle, you probably should hope that 9th is at least somewhat successful. Or there is the very real risk that it could be dropped altogether... and if so, knowing how GW treats other IP's, it probably won't come back (see also Mordheim and Necromunda / gorka morka, with counterpoint being space hulk, but i'm pretty sure SH always sold well, yes ?) You probably should, even if you don't like 9th's skirmish thing very much, hope that it succeeds, unless you're like Yohdrin and are okay with the entire franchise and IP expiring. If so, then yeah, you probably won't care one way or another.
See I inferred from your previous post that we should kind of support it, but what you actually tried to say was we should wish its a hit if we want to see it WFB continuing correct?
Going back to finecast... I love some of the GW models but not enough to buy something that does not satisfy my needs, even if compromised the continuity of said gw miniatures. Also Im an old enough fart to detach myself from rage quitting things. I mean if its not for me I just detach myself and look elsewere but I will not wish that all just goes belly up, I believe that the more options on the market the merrier, someone surely will enjoy 9th ( I may even love it). Some specialist games only live in the obscurity of the homes of vets and clubs ( I think bloodbowl is the exception since its really popular), and even if these games could have had decent support its not happening. Is this a bad thing? Sure if you want to have official support and continuous updates. Will this happen to WFB? Its a possibility. I would like to state the obvious though its not up to us... its only up to GW to create an appealing engaging game. I think that WFB deserves to continue in full glory but I will not support a caricature full of bubbles.
No really. I have seen some logical arguments in this thread, and i've usually responded to them with soemething akin to "valid" or "fair point" or some such, even if i don't agree with them. Mostly it's been anecodotal soapboxing or hyperbole spouting though.
I kind of tried to understand your point of view even if I failed though
Again, you can do that. There are two problems here though: 1) if WHFB dries up those games are going to branch off and do their own thing, not just mimic what WHFB is doing with cheaper models, as they'll have zero impetus to do that anymore. So ergo, as time marches on, you'll have less and less of a spot on match with company #2 than GW. Not saying you can't do this, you totally can ; but as time goes on, i think there will be less synergy between say GW Dwarfs and Mantic Dwarfs for instance.
Thats a bit of a guess the future exercise there. We do not know how things would unfold. It could be like you said or it could be that other companies release freerulesets compatible with WFB armies and we all have fun regardless of who publish them... will that have a huge following or it will simply die out? Putting my guessing hat here, I think the future is heading to more games and more options and less only one big company with a couple big games. Ridiculous comparison alert... GW gamesday is empty and salute is jam packed... maybe GW is no longer the main interest of the majority of wargammers.
This is entirely your opinion, so that makes it valid. I disagree. I think the books are gorgeous, as are most of the minis they've released, if perhaps the minis rules haven't been outstanding all the time.
Part of the appeal of the end times books product is that they are a nice quasi-coffee table book quality book. There were numerous threads where people expressed concern that they had 1-2 or 1-3 in hardcover, and wanted to make sure that they could get Thanquol and eventually archaon in hardcover. Granted in terms of art, the artbooks are better, but these kind of combine an art book with a pretty compelling story (some of it is silly, yes, but generally it's written pretty well, shooting down moons aside, in my opinion).
Thanks for reminding its only my opinion, I totally forgot about that, for a moment I imagined myself talking for all geekind Yeah its totally my biased way, I love a good artbook and I collect them as much as I love a good miniature... Rules? If they are free or at a realistic price sure thing. Amalgam of art, rules and fluff? Its not fish or meat so not to my taste and a waste of precious shelf space.
T am thinking that there will be a core rule book, and then like with island of blood a pamphlet-esque thing that comes with all the starters giving some fluffy background, a bit of info, and some general low lying fruit game play tips. Just a hunch. In the old days, the starter sets used to come with multiple books. Digging deep here... but i think 2nd ed 40k came with a stats rulebook. They might, in lieu of such big changes, do the same thing here. In fact, i kind of thing they would have to one way or the other, but then again, maybe not.
I see an infinite array of prearranged battlegroups books with their own rules every 3 months.
The new set of rumours sound better than the previous rumours because the changes aren't as severe.
So all or many WHFB armies might be relegated to Sisters of Battle status (I.e supported in that some models are available but no more updates). But considering the previous rumours had our armies relagated to Gorkamorka status (I.e models not available, rules not supported, can use to proxy BUT you would have to rebase them all), we are now in a much better position
Again, you can do that. There are two problems here though: 1) if WHFB dries up those games are going to branch off and do their own thing, not just mimic what WHFB is doing with cheaper models, as they'll have zero impetus to do that anymore. So ergo, as time marches on, you'll have less and less of a spot on match with company #2 than GW. Not saying you can't do this, you totally can ; but as time goes on, i think there will be less synergy between say GW Dwarfs and Mantic Dwarfs for instance.
I dunno if it'll play out like that. Historical rulesets aren't quite a flush fit as an analogy, because all the rulesets gathered under a particular era or period use the same established 'fluff', so to speak; but since I dipped into them a few years ago I've noticed new ones tend towards multibasing or 'frontage' conventions that are compatible with older, popular systems or are quite flexible or informal. A 60x40mm element in DBX can be lined up with two others to make a unit in Hail Caesar, pushed together with three others to make a unit in Impetus and Dux Bellorum, etc. I know HC and Dux Bellorum in particular basically say 'pff, use whatever base size you want, as long as the unit frontages reasonably match'.
There's actually slightly less multibasing compatibility between some fantasy battle games, though it doesn't quite matter 'cos they're usually multiples of the 20x20mm individual bases that a certain popular game goes for (pity about the scale-crept oversized infantry on 25x25), and I'm getting away from my point. The compatibility that I see in fantasy games include generic or abstract unit entries for fantasy archetypes (including a few that WFB might've popularised; examples would be Kings of War, Hordes of the Things, and God of Battles), or unit creation rules that let you slot in stats and abilities for whatever you have in your collection. (examples include Mayhem, Legions of Battle, Armies of Arcana, Fantasy Rules!, etc.)
So on the topic of 'not mimicking GW with cheaper models', and spinning off with their own look and fluff: only two of the fantasy games I mentioned have the ability to do that - KoW and GoB (and GoB is actually based around Foundry's fairly expensive fantasy models, which is not so good because they're pisspoor) The others are just rules. They're not written to have an attached, 'unique' background awkwardly shoehorned in where possible, and not written to flog a proprietary range of minis; they're written to be good, fun sets of rules. Though obviously YMMV between them. Their lack of nitty-grit might also turn off some gamers, but IMO their generic nature is their strength: a lot of armies in fantasy settings boil down to real-world types and fantasy tropes anyway, and as mentioned these rules can concentrate on delivering a good mass-battle game experience through that, rather than fretting over Phoenix Guards' precog abilities, the precise effects of drugs or Stormbringer on Elric's combat and leadership qualities, the mattocks wielded by the Iron Hill dwarves compared to axes or whatnot, and other such hangups and speedbumps that shouldn't really matter to a broad-strokes game.
The need to shoehorn those speshul-snowflake rules to tie the Warhammer rules to the Warhammer background and Warhammer minis, while also writing the rules to sell bigger and bigger Warhammer armies, is arguably what's led us to this nadir of WFB's popularity and the possibly catastrophic shakeup of 9th ed, anyway. I admit it's left me a bit suspicious of other all-in-one package games too, for better or worse. Games like Warmachine, Infinity and Malifaux. Having some experience of these (particularly Malifaux) I don't doubt they play somewhat smoother than GW's core two, but I still see a lot of gimmicky stuff that seems to me designed to snare gamers (or keep them snared) in that indivisible package mentality. You need to use your Mei-Feng mini in Malifaux to make use of that cardful of kewl, badazz, overpowered roolz (when Mei-Feng turned up in 1st ed Malifaux, I swear the power creep made 40K look balanced. Power creep? Power pole-vault...) and if you've got that cardful of kewl, highly character-specific roolz, you might as well get that expensive Mei-Feng mini to make it clear, rather than proxy. How many would think to use their Malifaux crews with more generic steampunk/VSF rules like In Her Majesty's Name or GASLIGHT, if it came with a debuff? How many proud warjack owners in Warmachine would be interested in Mayhem's 'bound construct' rules, if they have to abandon all that combo-building?
So that brings me to my next thoughts, and back to Warhammer...
NAVARRO wrote: Also Im an old enough fart to detach myself from rage quitting things. I mean if its not for me I just detach myself and look elsewere but I will not wish that all just goes belly up, I believe that the more options on the market the merrier, someone surely will enjoy 9th ( I may even love it).
I don't ragequit either, but part of me thinks GWwould need to crash and burn, to end the sometimes-disturbing hold it has over the market (still string despite losses), allow those other options to appear and thrive, and introduce some gamers to a more personalised and - pardon the term - holistic way of gaming.
Some specialist games only live in the obscurity of the homes of vets and clubs ( I think bloodbowl is the exception since its really popular), and even if these games could have had decent support its not happening. Is this a bad thing? Sure if you want to have official support and continuous updates.
You might guess by now that I'd think 'official support and continuous updates' aren't all they're cracked up to be. Not with the kind of support and updates GW might offer. (boils down to 'your old stuff is down the crapper now; buy this new stuff at a higher price') There are plenty of current SG players and supporters who might agree with me.
It could be like you said or it could be that other companies release freerulesets compatible with WFB armies and we all have fun regardless of who publish them... will that have a huge following or it will simply die out? Putting my guessing hat here, I think the future is heading to more games and more options and less only one big company with a couple big games.
Aye, obviously I'd agree with that as an ideal, even if I'm not sure it'd come about. It'd be a situation more like historical gaming, where for the most part you choose your period, rules and minis seperately. But like I've said before, I think Leto II might need to fall over a cliff, first.
Ridiculous comparison alert... GW gamesday is empty and salute is jam packed... maybe GW is no longer the main interest of the majority of wargammers.
If it ever was. GW's big, but with a lot of fairly temporary customers, and an otherwise inward-looking player base.
This is entirely your opinion, so that makes it valid. I disagree. I think the books are gorgeous, as are most of the minis they've released, if perhaps the minis rules haven't been outstanding all the time.
Part of the appeal of the end times books product is that they are a nice quasi-coffee table book quality book.
Bleedin' Nora, it's a book of instructions for moving about your toy soldiers!
The move to low model count armies with lots of big models sounds very much like the Herohammer era, in which you'd sink max points into Lords & Monsters, with minimum points in mandatory infantry. To be fair, that was a very creative period with a lot of growth.
Haight wrote: No one is saying that yo should buy something you don't like. However if you want to see continued manufacturer support for Warhammer Fantasy Battle, you probably should hope that 9th is at least somewhat successful. Or there is the very real risk that it could be dropped altogether... and if so, knowing how GW treats other IP's, it probably won't come back
The problem there though is that if this new WFB is successful, you won't get the old WFB you liked back, they'll just keep doing more of the same.
If you actually like 8th Ed WFB, you want 9th Ed to totally flop because it'll mean either (A) GW will realise their mistake and backpeddle with 10th, so you've only got a few years of playing the orphaned 8th Ed, or (B) GW will just drop it completely and the community will keep it going with support from legion manufacturers.
The "old WFB you liked" will be alive as long as you (and, importantly, your gaming mates) allow it to be.
Oldhammer exists for a reason. There are already tons of alternative rulesets (Vermis regularly reminds everyone of it, and that's good because many people seem to either forget it or ignore it completely). The picture right now looks so grim (nice work geedubs, I guess) that in spanish-speaking forums alone I've already seen several initiatives of developing alternative rulesets based on the WHFB system.
Players have simply to understand the fact that it's the community, and not any company, what truly makes the game. Any game will stay alive as long as there's demand of it. Even if GW crumbles tomorrow morning, other manufacturers will provide the miniatures as long as people wants them. What the community needs is to organize itself a bit better. This is not the 80s or the 90s anymore, internet is virtually everywhere in developed countries.
While all those miniatures, books and White Dwarfs won't spontaneously combust the second 9th hits, "Old" WHFB will still slowly wither. There are still communities of Specialist Gamers out there, there are probably people playing Confrontation, AT-43, Alkemy and all those other games that left us.
But, and this is a BIG but: A game that is not supported shrivels away. Yes, even if new releases can be used in the old game (and that is a big if), it will slowly lose the momentum it has left, with no new books, no exposure, no direct recruitment.
The big things Warhammer has going for it are the Fluff and the fact that there are so many people that play it. The latter is something WHFB has almost lost and the former is being completely demolished by GW. So, with the fluff that many people love gone and with the same playerbase most dead games have, many people will simply stop. There is nothing new to talk about on boards, everything that happens, happens in Bubbleworld now and there is next to nobody left to play. Sure, it will keep going for a while, but it will go the same way Specialist Games went after they cut support, especially if they actually remove existing models from the ranges.
Simply changing whole army activation to alternating unit activation only changes a few sentances (less than 0.1% of the word count of the rules) yet would have a profound change several orders of magnitude beyond that percentage in actual play. I don't think people on either side of the discussion should put so much faith into a rumor monger percentage. I believe it was Abraham Lincoln who once said that 98% of quotes and percentages you find on the internet are false.
As long as WHFB 9th doesn't fail they will march forward in the direction 9th sets. 9th would have to be an utter flop to get them to not continue on wards with that direction. If it is it does flop there is no certainty they won't cut losses and dump WHFB altogether.
warboss wrote: Simply changing whole army activation to alternating unit activation only changes a few sentances (less than 0.1% of the word count of the rules) yet would have a profound change several orders of magnitude beyond that percentage in actual play. I don't think people on either side of the discussion should put so much faith into a rumor monger percentage. I believe it was Abraham Lincoln who once said that 98% of quotes and percentages you find on the internet are false.
I believe he did say that, but he was quoting from Kim Kardashian.
Some updated rumours over on Bell of Lost souls. Characters unable to join units? Warmachines on round bases and attached to units? Elite units have a size of 2-5? What do you think?
Definitely confirms everything others and I have heard. I'd put good money on this being close to the mark.
I heard a while back that most characters would basically be monsters in the new edition ala Glottkin to allow them to stand on their own two feet, whereas smaller generic characters like Runesmiths would be almost like a unit upgrades. Although I'm not entirely how that would work exactly. What ever does happen in the new game with characters, one thing I know for definite is that the 9th will have a large emphasis on special characters, old and new. When you've killed 90% of your old characters off you need to create a whole lot more to make up the numbers. This would fit with characters being their own units as suggested. For this reason I expect the new Phoenix model to survive into 9th but I haven't anything for sure.
The post mentions Shaven are in for a large re-imagining which is absolutely correct. Skaven had reached the stage where the design studio was struggling to come up with new unit ideas for them, but with the new fluff advancement they can become even freaky than ever before. In all honesty though, all armies are going to get this treatment, Chaos will hold the closest ties to the game that we used to know, and for that reason I can see it being hugely popular amongst vets. Undead especially are in for a HUGE re-imagining, being led the greatest Necromancer ever means they basically create anything, the swirly ethereal spirits look will tie all the new units together. I wouldn't worry to much though, if you like the ET models and the stuff released just before it, you'll love the new ranges.
I'd also like to clarify something I said a while back, I told you there would be less emphasis on gunpowder, which the internet seems to have taken to mean less guns. This was entirely my fault, for not explaining myself properly, but gunpowder will be going yes/sorta, but we'll still see ranged weaponry. This ranges weaponry will be more akin to stuff like; The LM Solar Engine, Skaven Warpstone Weaponry and the Empire Luminark, alot more magical in some respects.
Also, I said this in one of the 40k threads, but there is some Tzeentch stuff coming this year, which was later confirmed by Hastings. Hastings mentioned some Tzeentch 40k stuff which I hadn't heard about, but I'd put money on him being correct over me. Expect these to drop later in the year.
BoLS are right about the starter, which Harry told you all about eons ago, and new terrain is definitely coming to match the new range. I heard December time but I could be wrong.
The post mentions Shaven are in for a large re-imagining which is absolutely correct. Skaven had reached the stage where the design studio was struggling to come up with new unit ideas for them, but with the new fluff advancement they can become even freaky than ever before. In all honesty though, all armies are going to get this treatment, Chaos will hold the closest ties to the game that we used to know, and for that reason I can see it being hugely popular amongst vets. Undead especially are in for a HUGE re-imagining, being led the greatest Necromancer ever means they basically create anything, the swirly ethereal spirits look will tie all the new units together. I wouldn't worry to much though, if you like the ET models and the stuff released just before it, you'll love the new ranges.
While I'm willing to believe the rumors that 9th Edition will bring a lot of aesthetic changes to the ranges I don't understand the repeated reference to the End Times as having a new look. Through 5 books now the only factions to get new models have been Undead, Nurgle, Skaven and Khorne, right? The vast majority of the existing WHFB range have seen no new End Times models so if 9th Ed is definitely happening this year is GW going to have more than 5 End Times books this year too or are they just going to do a massive release wave when 9th drops?
The post mentions Shaven are in for a large re-imagining which is absolutely correct. Skaven had reached the stage where the design studio was struggling to come up with new unit ideas for them, but with the new fluff advancement they can become even freaky than ever before. In all honesty though, all armies are going to get this treatment, Chaos will hold the closest ties to the game that we used to know, and for that reason I can see it being hugely popular amongst vets. Undead especially are in for a HUGE re-imagining, being led the greatest Necromancer ever means they basically create anything, the swirly ethereal spirits look will tie all the new units together. I wouldn't worry to much though, if you like the ET models and the stuff released just before it, you'll love the new ranges.
While I'm willing to believe the rumors that 9th Edition will bring a lot of aesthetic changes to the ranges I don't understand the repeated reference to the End Times as having a new look. Through 5 books now the only factions to get new models have been Undead, Nurgle, Skaven and Khorne, right? The vast majority of the existing WHFB range have seen no new End Times models so if 9th Ed is definitely happening this year is GW going to have more than 5 End Times books this year too or are they just going to do a massive release wave when 9th drops?
Some of the stuff that makes up the new factions has already been released. Take the most recent Dwarf models for instance, notice how the aesthetic is more an evolution of the Dwarf aesethetic than one that fits in the older models, they have shoulder pads for instance.
The post mentions Shaven are in for a large re-imagining which is absolutely correct. Skaven had reached the stage where the design studio was struggling to come up with new unit ideas for them, but with the new fluff advancement they can become even freaky than ever before. In all honesty though, all armies are going to get this treatment, Chaos will hold the closest ties to the game that we used to know, and for that reason I can see it being hugely popular amongst vets. Undead especially are in for a HUGE re-imagining, being led the greatest Necromancer ever means they basically create anything, the swirly ethereal spirits look will tie all the new units together. I wouldn't worry to much though, if you like the ET models and the stuff released just before it, you'll love the new ranges.
While I'm willing to believe the rumors that 9th Edition will bring a lot of aesthetic changes to the ranges I don't understand the repeated reference to the End Times as having a new look. Through 5 books now the only factions to get new models have been Undead, Nurgle, Skaven and Khorne, right? The vast majority of the existing WHFB range have seen no new End Times models so if 9th Ed is definitely happening this year is GW going to have more than 5 End Times books this year too or are they just going to do a massive release wave when 9th drops?
Some of the stuff that makes up the new factions has already been released. Take the most recent Dwarf models for instance, notice how the aesthetic is more an evolution of the Dwarf aesethetic than one that fits in the older models, they have shoulder pads for instance.
True. I hadn't picked up on that since most of the core troops stayed the same. Disconcerting that the plastic troops that tend to make up the bulk of existing WHFB armies will be left to whither on the vine while new look special units or special/core dual kits are released. If 9th Ed makes the bulk of my armies look out of place or left on the shelf in favor of small games played with new heros + elite units I'll probably leave WHFB and play something different.
warboss wrote: I don't think people on either side of the discussion should put so much faith into a rumor monger percentage. I believe it was Abraham Lincoln who once said that 98% of quotes and percentages you find on the internet are false.
For instance the bad guys side is Chaos and Daemons ; okay a sense making combination that i think any of use could agree that, if they allow army mixing, is a logical combo.
Check out the good guys. Contains minis from empire, elves, possibly dwarf ranges ?
Interesting, and opens up a lot of questions. Does this sorta remind anyone else of Unbound in 40k ?
Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits and the like on the other side
Add neutral factions as desired:
* druids dryads treefolk that care only about nature
* orks-ogres-trolls-lizzardmen (want to live in isolation, might be evil, depending on setting)
* undead (might be evil, depending on the setting)
* skaven-tyranids-swamp monsters (not strictly evil, but too different in their views to live in peace with the others)
Korraz wrote: While all those miniatures, books and White Dwarfs won't spontaneously combust the second 9th hits, "Old" WHFB will still slowly wither. There are still communities of Specialist Gamers out there, there are probably people playing Confrontation, AT-43, Alkemy and all those other games that left us.
But, and this is a BIG but: A game that is not supported shrivels away. Yes, even if new releases can be used in the old game (and that is a big if), it will slowly lose the momentum it has left, with no new books, no exposure, no direct recruitment.
The big things Warhammer has going for it are the Fluff and the fact that there are so many people that play it. The latter is something WHFB has almost lost and the former is being completely demolished by GW. So, with the fluff that many people love gone and with the same playerbase most dead games have, many people will simply stop. There is nothing new to talk about on boards, everything that happens, happens in Bubbleworld now and there is next to nobody left to play. Sure, it will keep going for a while, but it will go the same way Specialist Games went after they cut support, especially if they actually remove existing models from the ranges.
I don't disagree, but I think the attitude of 'a game is only worth playing if the publisher keeps releasing things to buy for it' isn't universal, is unhelpful, and is something that GW's power-hungry practises have had no small hand in cementing in gamers' minds, over the years.
As Korinov said so well, the community should have a much bigger say in the popularity and playability of a game, rather than leaving it all up to the company. (It depresses me a little to see how many gamers do leave it all up to GW, and flail in a panic when GW holds the scissors over one of the apron strings) All that should really matter, if rules and minis are possessed or available, is what your community enjoys. Don't worry about anyone else! Why are you worrying about anyone else? Stuff the company if they've stopped printing the rules in favour of inferior games or edition shakeups. Stuff that other gaming club a few dozen miles down the road if they still drink the kool-aid and only buy and use the latest thing over and over again. If you and your group have been playing an older or more obscure game and still enjoy it, that's all it takes.
Ditto that in the internet age, communities have never been able to communicate, research, test the waters, co-ordinate and organise so well. Even outside individual clubs and localities. Blood Bowl tournies have been mentioned. I think there are still Inquisitor events organised through the Conclave forum, even. Oldhammerers and Wargames Foundry have started Oldhammer gatherings at Foundry's premises. I've recently learned about a resurgence of Epic:A popularity in a club not too far away from me, that I should check out soon. It's like so much else in life: it's not as likely to happen if you just flop back and hope it'll land in your lap. You gotta look for, ask about, and make the opportunities.
Also, fluff and player base are arguably all that Warhammer - the Warhammer rules, specifically - has going for it. I personally feel that if there's a mass exodus at the release of 9th, or if WFB crashes and burns afterwards, big-battle Warhammer could dwindle even further than some SGs, 'cos when it's on a more level playing field with other mass-battle fantasy rulesets folk could realise just how clunky and inappropriate it is.
@Vermis - As some people on these boards have pointed out to me, their local GW is their only place to play. This becomes a serious issue when the game you want to play is no longer supported, and sometimes no longer welcome at the store.
It's all fine and dandy to say "just keep playing what you want!". That doesn't always work. My friends have stopped playing 40k and WHFB all together, due almost entirely to 7e's rapid release and End Times respectively. I'd like to get a game in, but have no local GW or FLGS. Which means my entire collection sits essentially useless.
So while "just play what you want" or "once GW dies other games will become popular" seems like common sense, it only works if you have other options in the first place.
Korraz wrote: While all those miniatures, books and White Dwarfs won't spontaneously combust the second 9th hits, "Old" WHFB will still slowly wither. There are still communities of Specialist Gamers out there, there are probably people playing Confrontation, AT-43, Alkemy and all those other games that left us.
But, and this is a BIG but: A game that is not supported shrivels away. Yes, even if new releases can be used in the old game (and that is a big if), it will slowly lose the momentum it has left, with no new books, no exposure, no direct recruitment.
The big things Warhammer has going for it are the Fluff and the fact that there are so many people that play it. The latter is something WHFB has almost lost and the former is being completely demolished by GW. So, with the fluff that many people love gone and with the same playerbase most dead games have, many people will simply stop. There is nothing new to talk about on boards, everything that happens, happens in Bubbleworld now and there is next to nobody left to play. Sure, it will keep going for a while, but it will go the same way Specialist Games went after they cut support, especially if they actually remove existing models from the ranges.
I don't disagree, but I think the attitude of 'a game is only worth playing if the publisher keeps releasing things to buy for it' isn't universal, is unhelpful, and is something that GW's power-hungry practises have had no small hand in cementing in gamers' minds, over the years.
As Korinov said so well, the community should have a much bigger say in the popularity and playability of a game, rather than leaving it all up to the company. (It depresses me a little to see how many gamers do leave it all up to GW, and flail in a panic when GW holds the scissors over one of the apron strings) All that should really matter, if rules and minis are possessed or available, is what your community enjoys. Don't worry about anyone else! Why are you worrying about anyone else? Stuff the company if they've stopped printing the rules in favour of inferior games or edition shakeups. Stuff that other gaming club a few dozen miles down the road if they still drink the kool-aid and only buy and use the latest thing over and over again. If you and your group have been playing an older or more obscure game and still enjoy it, that's all it takes.
Ditto that in the internet age, communities have never been able to communicate, research, test the waters, co-ordinate and organise so well. Even outside individual clubs and localities. Blood Bowl tournies have been mentioned. I think there are still Inquisitor events organised through the Conclave forum, even. Oldhammerers and Wargames Foundry have started Oldhammer gatherings at Foundry's premises. I've recently learned about a resurgence of Epic:A popularity in a club not too far away from me, that I should check out soon. It's like so much else in life: it's not as likely to happen if you just flop back and hope it'll land in your lap. You gotta look for, ask about, and make the opportunities.
Also, fluff and player base are arguably all that Warhammer - the Warhammer rules, specifically - has going for it. I personally feel that if there's a mass exodus at the release of 9th, or if WFB crashes and burns afterwards, big-battle Warhammer could dwindle even further than some SGs, 'cos when it's on a more level playing field with other mass-battle fantasy rulesets folk could realise just how clunky and inappropriate it is.
All very well said and a wonderful idea/notion. The thing you are missing is that without support, new players are less likely to play a game. Sure you may have some that join via seeing a game of 8th being played post release of 9th, but few stores are actively going to push a rule set to new players that they eventually can't/won't be able to carry. Company non-support of a rule set isn't a kiss of death, but it certainly isn't packing em in.
EDIT: Steamdragon brings up another similar problem, as well as his Ninja abilities
streamdragon wrote: @Vermis - As some people on these boards have pointed out to me, their local GW is their only place to play. This becomes a serious issue when the game you want to play is no longer supported, and sometimes no longer welcome at the store.
It's all fine and dandy to say "just keep playing what you want!". That doesn't always work. My friends have stopped playing 40k and WHFB all together, due almost entirely to 7e's rapid release and End Times respectively. I'd like to get a game in, but have no local GW or FLGS. Which means my entire collection sits essentially useless.
So while "just play what you want" or "once GW dies other games will become popular" seems like common sense, it only works if you have other options in the first place.
I don't think it's that difficult to craft a 180x120cm gaming table. Heck, I know it's not that difficult, because I did when I was 15 years old (with some help from my dad). You can even play on smaller surfaces at lower point games, or even scaling down distances if necessary.
A tabletop game can be played virtually everywhere as long as you have a decently sized surface and a bit of space to move around it. If your local GW is the only shop available, try looking for alternatives. Try to get into contact with your town council to know if there's some space available in any public buildings (a civic centre i.e.). It may take some effort, but then again as Vermis said, don't expect good things to come at you and sit on your lap ready for the taking, sometimes you will have to work your way to get what you want.
You'd be surprised how much a bunch of determined people can achieve if they truly set their sights on a goal and work towards it. As I wrote before, the gaming community should be more willing to take a step forward or two and bend things to their liking instead of letting companies pimp them (us) and dictate what they (we) must do.
In other words, be a gamer, not an indolent and submissive "hostage client".
You can build your own game space, but it doesn't matter if you don't have an opponent. The second half of Steamdragon's point is that all of his local player base has moved away from GW. He can make his own space, but unless someone else wants to play, his minis will still sit unused. He's not "Walking Dead", he's "I am Legend".
My local group is pretty much the same. fantasy is dead, 40K has been shelved, even by the hardest core players due to lack of opponents. Several fantasy players have looked at moving their armies in the second hand market but can't even due that due to the flood of people doing the same.
Personally, mine are sitting in deep storage, waiting for the day my kids might have an interest. Then I will dust them off and find some kind of rule set to use them with.
Steamdragon: is GW their only place to play because it's the only place to play or because it's the only place they play? When GW kicked the 'vets' out of the Belfast store, years ago, I thought I was in the same boat. (that didn't even involve any kind of ragequitting or self-exile over edition changes or army invalidation; it was a pretty clear 'get thee hence') Then one of the ex-vets started hosting games in his home, and we started finding out about a bunch of other gaming clubs around the country, in my case one that was much, much closer than the GW store. I'd just never known about it because I hadn't looked, or asked.
If there are no apparent clubs or informal groups about, well, I did say stuff about organisation and making opportunities.
With all due respect it sounds like your friends are poster boys for the effect I complained about in my previous post. Have they sold all their armies and rulebooks, or like you have they held onto them but just peer at them every so often and grumble? There might be programmed commands that they can only be used with 7th or End Times, but I don't think they've been implanted in the heads of the models.
For all of that, groaning and giving in is definitely an option, but it doesn't sound like it's a very satisfying one.
Gunslinger: why do you need new gamers (or, let's face it, customers) to enjoy an old game that you and a bunch of your pals have enjoyed countless times before?
I swear this kind of thing feels like this at times. Come on through, GW gamers! There's no glass! Come on, boy!
I don't think it's that difficult to craft a 180x120cm gaming table. Heck, I know it's not that difficult, because I did when I was 15 years old (with some help from my dad). You can even play on smaller surfaces at lower point games, or even scaling down distances if necessary.
A tabletop game can be played virtually everywhere as long as you have a decently sized surface and a bit of space to move around it. If your local GW is the only shop available, try looking for alternatives. Try to get into contact with your town council to know if there's some space available in any public buildings (a civic centre i.e.). It may take some effort, but then again as Vermis said, don't expect good things to come at you and sit on your lap ready for the taking, sometimes you will have to work your way to get what you want.
You'd be surprised how much a bunch of determined people can achieve if they truly set their sights on a goal and work towards it. As I wrote before, the gaming community should be more willing to take a step forward or two and bend things to their liking instead of letting companies pimp them (us) and dictate what they (we) must do.
In other words, be a gamer, not an indolent and submissive "hostage client".
As to this, fantastic cheer leading for a daytime kid's show I guess. I mean, it basically ignores that gaming companies actually are in control of what games are available (and thus popular). There's a reason older games have died: they lose support. How many active Necromunda store campaigns do you think there are now versus when they were actively supported by and in GW stores? Mordheim? Gorkamorka? Advanced Hero Quest?
"Hostage client"? I opined on what my friend's were doing, not what GW was doing. My group didn't like what GW was doing, so they've moved onto X-Wing. I fail to see how that's a "hostage client", whatever that means. Doesn't mean I can't lament the way that GW has treated fantasy to the point when my friends sell their armies rather than play.
Gunslinger: why do you need new gamers (or, let's face it, customers) to enjoy an old game that you and a bunch of your pals have enjoyed countless times before?
Because reality is that everything that does not grow, shrinks. And games that shrink eventually die off.
Personally i am not too worried about 9th. I think their new rules will be a sort of warmachine stile skirmish game, but that actually scales well. There are several aveneus for this, it is not undoable and think what we might of GW, they are not simply going to kill off one of their major ips.
Vermis wrote: Steamdragon: is GW their only place to play because it's the only place to play or because it's the only place they play?
I'll have to let them answer that. I can't even give you names, I just know that the issue has come up repeatedly in previous threads about edition changes and the slowly dwindling popularity of certain games.
With all due respect it sounds like your friends are poster boys for the effect I complained about in my previous post. Have they sold all their armies and rulebooks, or like you have they held onto them but just peer at them every so often and grumble? There might be programmed commands that they can only be used with 7th or End Times, but I don't think they've been implanted in the heads of the models.
I know certain armies have been sold off, or are being sold off. I've considered unloading some of my 6 40k armies because I haven't played in several years and they're taking up tons of space.
I'm fully aware that we could play. I still have my rule books, I still have my templates, I still have my figures and everything necessary. The issue is the desire to play. I have the desire, but find I'm the only one. The lack of desire for WHFB, for example, stems almost entirely from what 9th edition is shaping up to be. Our Lizardman player is justifiably annoyed at best with how Lizardmen have been treated in end times. Hearing "skaven going forward will be unrecognizable from their current iteration" and "old armies will exist but get no support" makes me look at my skaven and go "so basically you're useless to me in 9th". So that removes all desire to look at 9th. When I lose interest in the future iteration of a game, it makes me lose interest in the current because I can understand that there will be no evolution of the game.
So I dropped a bunch of money on X-Wing, because hey, I'll still be playing something with my friends. Which is the desired end result.
Azreal13 wrote: I think he meant the "90% the same runour" rather than a rumour monger's accuracy dude..
Yup. It was more of a response to the pleas for calm due to the "reassuring" 90% the same rumor claim. The following sentences are 90% the same yet I don't think most people would view them as meaning the same thing.
In any case, I think most of the rumors are heading towards a much changed game and fluff for Warhammer. Since I've never really played fantasy, I've been largely watching from the sidelines to see how the changes may foretell the future of 40k with the next edition. While I think 40k needs a major fluff advancement like End Times, I'd worry about the legacy support of older models as well. As long as the rules continue to allow you to use them (even if GW stops selling them), I'd be fine with it. I guess we'll find out in about 6 months once things shake out of the fanstasy warp portal.
I am, quite worried about my armies (Tree Spirits and Dwarves)...
I donno what's gonna happen to them and, if they'll still really exist...
Fantasy was all I played and now, this looks like I got nothing left, all the tables and people in the world won't benefit me if I got no army.
And GW is really the only place I play at, since that's the only place people play Fantasy where I live.
With "Forces of Light", I wonder if GW is going for an even more radical simplification than what we had previously seen suggested.
major forces:
1. Forces of Chaos (DoC, HoC, BoC)
2. Forces of Undeath (VC & TK)
3. Forces of Light (Empire, Brets, HElves, WElves, Delves, Dorfs, OK)
minor forces:
4. Skaven
5. O&G
6. Lizardmen
Note that this matches the early rumor of 6 armies, but GW would only really be obligated to maintain 3 of them as core staples. Lizardmen, etc. would be treated like Sisters of Battle in 40k.
So Skaven trash a bunch of nations (I mean, they're practically the reason that dwarves are so screwed) in End Times, but then get relegated to a "minor force"?
Also, I thought there was a new human faction as one of the 6?
According to earlier rumors, Ogres & Dorfs are folded in with Men - there is no new humans faction.
Now, it's saying that Elves and Men are folded together as "Forces of Light"
As for Skaven, it's not clear if they are standalone or not. I just know they're not Undead, and they're not Chaos. They don't lack the breadth or potential of the Chaos and Undead ranges. They are a minor force from a sales standpoint, regardless of how they sit in the fluff.
I thought Skaven were wheeling and dealing with Chaos, and might get brought into their fold?
I almost wonder if they find a way to over Chaos itself the way they're rolling recently, or get royally burned for dealing with Chaos in the first place.
Maybe that will explain why they're supposedly going to be so different looking when 9th rolls around. Screwing around with things they shouldn't be?
Looking at some of the army lists, I am thinking that those of us with all the old Rackham models will be able to do a lot of easy and obvious counts-as action. I seem to recall having an ogre or two dressed up like an Empire state troop around here somewhere...
Wehrkind wrote: Looking at some of the army lists, I am thinking that those of us with all the old Rackham models will be able to do a lot of easy and obvious counts-as action. I seem to recall having an ogre or two dressed up like an Empire state troop around here somewhere...
I would be doing the ton of uraken I have then, to go with my forest gobbos
The army of light content is very odd! This all seems to head to be character vs character battles
I think you need to stop thinking in old WHFB categories (Brettonia, Empire, ...) and think more along the lines of D&D / LotR: Good - Neutral - Bad.
That forces of light-Idea isn't the worst that can happen. Sure, there will be like 6 factions rolled into one - high elves, wood elves, brettonia, empire, dwarfs, new fantasy-marine-paladins. On one hand it will be pretty hard to get a mono-faction army out of that, since I assume there will be like two units per old subfaction, tops, for quite a while.
On the other hand, that way you might get to paint something different every time you buy a box, which is not that bad as anyone who had to paint 4-5 full squads of boyz/thermagants/IG platoons can tell you. With that "we have to release only a couple units per old faction"-approach it might actually save some factions from SoB-status, since they don't have to make a whole codex and product range and instead can just release some juicy, iconic unit everyone might like to some degree.
Kosake wrote: I think you need to stop thinking in old WHFB categories (Brettonia, Empire, ...) and think more along the lines of D&D / LotR: Good - Neutral - Bad.
That forces of light-Idea isn't the worst that can happen. Sure, there will be like 6 factions rolled into one - high elves, wood elves, brettonia, empire, dwarfs, new fantasy-marine-paladins. On one hand it will be pretty hard to get a mono-faction army out of that, since I assume there will be like two units per old subfaction, tops, for quite a while.
On the other hand, that way you might get to paint something different every time you buy a box, which is not that bad as anyone who had to paint 4-5 full squads of boyz/thermagants/IG platoons can tell you. With that "we have to release only a couple units per old faction"-approach it might actually save some factions from SoB-status, since they don't have to make a whole codex and product range and instead can just release some juicy, iconic unit everyone might like to some degree.
Yeah guys, ignore that you've spent possibly years putting together your army, you can now put together ANOTHER army that you COULD have put together before but opted not to! GW is saving you from yourself!
@Bolded. I play Skaven, Beastmen, Tyranids, IG and Orks. Oh, and SoB. Painting a billion of a single model isn't anything that someone selecting those armies is surprised by.
Kosake wrote: I think you need to stop thinking in old WHFB categories (Brettonia, Empire, ...) and think more along the lines of D&D / LotR: Good - Neutral - Bad.
That forces of light-Idea isn't the worst that can happen. Sure, there will be like 6 factions rolled into one - high elves, wood elves, brettonia, empire, dwarfs, new fantasy-marine-paladins.
Or, it could be 2 factions, like what we saw in the global Warhammer Fantasy "Storm of Chaos" campaign:
- Disorder (DoC, HoC, BoC, CD, DElfs, Skaven, Orks, VC, TK)
- Order (Empire, Brets, DoW, Dorfs, HElfs, WElfs)
Speaking of, if we get models for Witch Elfs of Slaanesh, that would be pretty cool.
You can build your own game space, but it doesn't matter if you don't have an opponent. The second half of Steamdragon's point is that all of his local player base has moved away from GW. He can make his own space, but unless someone else wants to play, his minis will still sit unused. He's not "Walking Dead", he's "I am Legend".
My local group is pretty much the same. fantasy is dead, 40K has been shelved, even by the hardest core players due to lack of opponents. Several fantasy players have looked at moving their armies in the second hand market but can't even due that due to the flood of people doing the same.
Personally, mine are sitting in deep storage, waiting for the day my kids might have an interest. Then I will dust them off and find some kind of rule set to use them with.
I understand Steamdragon's case or yours are (maybe) already beyond 'salvation' because the potential opponents have just switched to other games and never looked back, specially if they've already sold their armies.
I was talking more about local communities/clubs that are currently wondering what will happen if GW ends up deciding to discontinue Fantasy. To be honest, I find the "game is no longer supported, I'll sell my minis" a bit underwhelming. If you truly enjoy the game, the minis and the background behind it all, you have several editions to choose from in order to keep playing. There are also a bunch of alternative rulesets you can try if you're not really satisfied with what the already existing WHFB editions offer you. I will never understand why people get so attached to "official" and "supported" products, like if that's the only way of having fun.
streamdragon wrote:As to this, fantastic cheer leading for a daytime kid's show I guess. I mean, it basically ignores that gaming companies actually are in control of what games are available (and thus popular). There's a reason older games have died: they lose support. How many active Necromunda store campaigns do you think there are now versus when they were actively supported by and in GW stores? Mordheim? Gorkamorka? Advanced Hero Quest?
Games die after losing support because the community can't be half-assed to make a bit of an effort to keep them alive, as simple as that. Gaming companies are in control on what's available because the lazyass and submissive community will let them be. After years of wargaming I've got the solid impression than the "average GW gamer" is, for the most part, someone who will whine like crazy at any and every kind of change the game may endure, but will never, ever do something productive about it. Along the lines of "wow this new edition is absolute garbage, most of my gaming mates think the same as me, but instead of keep playing the previous edition with some agreed tweaks, we'll actually play the new garbage edition because Papa GeeDubs tells us so". That's what I call an "hostage client", by the way: someone so invested in his/her loyalty to a certain company/product, that even unconciously admitting he/she's being sold garbage, he/she'll swallow it.
Doesn't mean I can't lament the way that GW has treated fantasy to the point when my friends sell their armies rather than play.
And instead of selling their armies, why don't they try to go back to one of the older editions? The books are there, the minis are there, the players are there. Where's the issue?
Vermis wrote: When GW kicked the 'vets' out of the Belfast store, years ago...
Wow, I didn't know that one. Care to elaborate on it a bit further? I don't mind if it's via PM.
I'm a big fan of variety. If one sprue contains a few figures of different sizes/ types, I'd be quite happy.
Even happier if I only need a few of them as opposed to 60+ to make them viable in game.
Minion miniatures was originally talking about having sprues laid out similar to this- one large guy, a couple mid/ human sized figures, and a handful of tiny guys with options for each, and to me it was a great idea.
If GW could actually pull something similar off, and not make me break the bank in order to play, I'd probably end up wanting to sample things from a few factions.
And instead of selling their armies, why don't they try to go back to one of the older editions? The books are there, the minis are there, the players are there. Where's the issue?
Just because the older editions are seen as being better than the new one doesn't mean that it's seen as good. People might want to play the game and hope for better rules in the future. If systems are not supported (through the company, online, or a local club) then a lot of the support falls onto them (the gamers) and it just might not be worth the effort for them, simple as that. Not everybody wants to do the work they would need to do to play the game. It might be a willpower thing, laziness, convenience, not wanting to keep up with the bookkeeping/logistics, or anything.
Some people might just want to play the game and it might be easier or simpler for them or just make them happy enough to just complain if things don't work out (or play video games or just drop the game and switch to another activity while missing the game). You might be willing to do the work, other people sure do (see all the rules online) but for someone else it just might not be worth it. Not everybody copes with these problems in the same way and your solution, no matter how simple and easy it is to you, might not be worth it for somebody else.
For example: cooking a quick, cheap, simple, and healthy meal at home should be possible for most people but they also have other needs/wants and constraints that make it hard for them and no matter how many recipes one were to send to these people they would still not manage. And here were are talking about a game played in our free time, not something essential to our survival. There are other options that just might be easier to access without all the additional hassle.
So while the points you (all of you who say to not be fixed upon one game) make are useful, they are also not always applicable and you might not understand why some people would give a company that power these people do it probably for some type of convenience/security.
Think of the difference between a freelancer and a salaried employee. Both get money for work and there is a security/freedom tradeoff that people make and some people thrive in one environment while others prefer the other one, neither is wrong or right.
You might not understand why people do it but you should understand that people do it.
Unsupported games die for a very simple reason. No new blood. It is a fantasy world to say a player base can keep a game alive - it just isn't so. Several reasons:
1) no models available for new players. If I play C3 with a new person how the heck are they supposed to buy the models at an affordable rate. Now try BFG or Epic etc etc
2) In a gaming circle most people tend to move on to the newer version of the game. That again is reality. Finding someone willing to write out a list for 6th or 7th isnt as easy as you make out.
3) Many smaller games are just not that popular and get dropped by most gaming groups as others in the group werent that interested in playing them. I for instance have never seen hero quest in either UK or US. Never seen it. Heard people talk about many many time. Necromunda, maybe 3 or 4 times. Mordheim I have seen re-org several times successfully because new players cannablise existing GW models to make a war band. Never seen Epic either - even though I have owned several models. Warmaster - briefly appeared and died. HOTT and the other 15mm game similar? Had 3 or 4 armies of those.
4) In the US, the majority of gaming takes place in stores. Clubs are few and far between. Huge diff between here and UK - fyi, I am English but live in US so have seen both sides.
fullheadofhair wrote: Unsupported games die for a very simple reason. No new blood. It is a fantasy world to say a player base can keep a game alive - it just isn't so. Several reasons:
1) no models available for new players. If I play C3 with a new person how the heck are they supposed to buy the models at an affordable rate. Now try BFG or Epic etc etc
-snip-.
This is the biggest one for me. It's easy to talk about keeping a game going, but if part of the appeal of the game is the setting and its aesthetic, not having access to models that have the right visual themes is a problem. For example, some people might be happy using the relatively cheap(not a slight against their quality) Perry WotR figures to build an Empire army, but goddamnit I want my pseudo-gothic, skull-encrusted not-Landsknecht with steam-driven tanks and ridiculous mythical-chicken cavalry. Even finding enough models of the right aesthetic to put together a human Mordheim warband without any GW figures at all is a stretch, let alone the three+ that typically take part in a campaign or an entire tabletop army. There's been a group of people wanting to try Epic in my area for the last two years, but only one actually has an army and the rest of us haven't been able to find/win a decent ebay auction or locate a secondhand army anywhere, and not many of the "not-Epic" 6mm models out there actually look like the GW factions. BFG looks to be finally getting out of the slump it was in for a while with no 3rd party models and ridiculous ebay prices, but there still aren't a lot of options if you want Gothic space-cathedrals and organic-designed solar-sail space elves, and those that there are ain't cheap because they're from small companies working in resin.
If all this was about was chucking some plastic on a table and moving them about with friends, sure no problem, but for a lot of folk model ranges are not interchangeable.
At the end of the day, all we are missing is the countless D100 tables, and we can go back to 1st edition.
finally be able to get my necromancer back into employment and getting paid, the lazy bum!!!
I'd suggest just to play with 1 base box, and use the few figures you get out of a 16 man box to make a few different "units", and you can go at it slow, and build on them ala Mordhiem, which is dangerously looking like what it is evolving into.
I really dislike Mr. Wall of Text, but he is keeping me surprisingly entertained with his, "See, your only getting "RAINED" on.... while he zips his trousers. It only hurts for a little bit....
the changes alluded to are crap at the end of the day. You are sitting here like them failing is a good thing. it would be priceless if it wasn't so tragic.
fullheadofhair wrote: Unsupported games die for a very simple reason. No new blood. It is a fantasy world to say a player base can keep a game alive - it just isn't so. Several reasons:
1) no models available for new players. If I play C3 with a new person how the heck are they supposed to buy the models at an affordable rate. Now try BFG or Epic etc etc
-snip-.
This is the biggest one for me. It's easy to talk about keeping a game going, but if part of the appeal of the game is the setting and its aesthetic, not having access to models that have the right visual themes is a problem. For example, some people might be happy using the relatively cheap(not a slight against their quality) Perry WotR figures to build an Empire army, but goddamnit I want my pseudo-gothic, skull-encrusted not-Landsknecht with steam-driven tanks and ridiculous mythical-chicken cavalry. Even finding enough models of the right aesthetic to put together a human Mordheim warband without any GW figures at all is a stretch, let alone the three+ that typically take part in a campaign or an entire tabletop army. There's been a group of people wanting to try Epic in my area for the last two years, but only one actually has an army and the rest of us haven't been able to find/win a decent ebay auction or locate a secondhand army anywhere, and not many of the "not-Epic" 6mm models out there actually look like the GW factions. BFG looks to be finally getting out of the slump it was in for a while with no 3rd party models and ridiculous ebay prices, but there still aren't a lot of options if you want Gothic space-cathedrals and organic-designed solar-sail space elves, and those that there are ain't cheap because they're from small companies working in resin.
If all this was about was chucking some plastic on a table and moving them about with friends, sure no problem, but for a lot of folk model ranges are not interchangeable.
I'm with you. I am fine with a little bit of not quite WYSIWYG (like a smoke launcher instead of a magna grapple), especially when it's because the player simply likes the aesthetic of one configuration better than another (like "Blood Talons look cool, so I'm going to put them on the model, even though I don't have the points for it"), but I draw the line at models totally made for some other purpose, like a Bumblebee (Transformers) model representing a Riptide. Sans models that draw me into the game world, I would rather see paper triangles on the table to play. Or, you know, just go do something else.
I kind of agree, but only because GW rules are bad. If the rules set is good I will use all sorts of things for it. If it is bad, I will go do something else, even with my SoB and orks.
Or, it could be 2 factions, like what we saw in the global Warhammer Fantasy "Storm of Chaos" campaign:
- Disorder (DoC, HoC, BoC, CD, DElfs, Skaven, Orks, VC, TK)
- Order (Empire, Brets, DoW, Dorfs, HElfs, WElfs)
From the way the End Times is going, I wouldn't be surprised if VC/TK are lumped together into Order instead of Disorder. Lizards would play into Order as well. Sure, they flew "over the horizon" in their ziggurats, I don't think they are lost in space. Just like Arnold, Kroq-gar said "I'll be back!"
Kosake wrote: I think you need to stop thinking in old WHFB categories (Brettonia, Empire, ...) and think more along the lines of D&D / LotR: Good - Neutral - Bad.
That forces of light-Idea isn't the worst that can happen. Sure, there will be like 6 factions rolled into one - high elves, wood elves, brettonia, empire, dwarfs, new fantasy-marine-paladins. On one hand it will be pretty hard to get a mono-faction army out of that, since I assume there will be like two units per old subfaction, tops, for quite a while.
On the other hand, that way you might get to paint something different every time you buy a box, which is not that bad as anyone who had to paint 4-5 full squads of boyz/thermagants/IG platoons can tell you. With that "we have to release only a couple units per old faction"-approach it might actually save some factions from SoB-status, since they don't have to make a whole codex and product range and instead can just release some juicy, iconic unit everyone might like to some degree.
Yeah guys, ignore that you've spent possibly years putting together your army, you can now put together ANOTHER army that you COULD have put together before but opted not to! GW is saving you from yourself!
@Bolded. I play Skaven, Beastmen, Tyranids, IG and Orks. Oh, and SoB. Painting a billion of a single model isn't anything that someone selecting those armies is surprised by.
Dude, I agree that a lot of people will be pissed because 90% of their army will get a lot of shelve time now. I merely try to point out that it might have it's good sides too. Look at me: I've never played fantasy, and with the clunky rules and tons of models I'd have to make, there's no chance in hell i'm going to try 8th ed WHFB. Make it a small-unit game with say 3-5 squads of up to 5 models and streamline the rules (a lot) and I might try it. So as a dirty scheme to get new blood in, this doesn't seem too bad.
The strategy is a bummer for veterans, but when did GW ever do something for them (in the last 15 years, at least)?
Dude, I agree that a lot of people will be pissed because 90% of their army will get a lot of shelve time now. I merely try to point out that it might have it's good sides too. Look at me: I've never played fantasy, and with the clunky rules and tons of models I'd have to make, there's no chance in hell i'm going to try 8th ed WHFB. Make it a small-unit game with say 3-5 squads of up to 5 models and streamline the rules (a lot) and I might try it. So as a dirty scheme to get new blood in, this doesn't seem too bad.
The strategy is a bummer for veterans, but when did GW ever do something for them (in the last 15 years, at least)?
That's not Warhammer Fantasy Battles though. That's Warhammer Skirmish, a rule set that has existed in previous editions of WHFB.
Edit: Also, they basically did this for 40k without screwing over the main game when they released rules for Kill Team.
I also don't understand why a skirmish rule set has to come at the expense of existing armies. That makes 0 sense to me. I'm all for new models with cool rules and all that. Take the End Times releases: I love the new Vermin Lord and Storm Fiends. But why would I buy them if there's a chance they're part of the 90% of my army that will become useless? I know you're not GW, so the questions are more rhetorical.
But really it was more this part:
Sure, there will be like 6 factions rolled into one - high elves, wood elves, brettonia, empire, dwarfs, new fantasy-marine-paladins. On one hand it will be pretty hard to get a mono-faction army out of that, since I assume there will be like two units per old subfaction, tops, for quite a while.
Which read as "hey, at least you can paint some empire with your elves! Or dwarves with your brets!" that I was referring to.
If they couldn't sell me those models before, why would I want to buy them now? Unless I'm basically forced to, to field what I already own? Can't imagine that going over well with players.
Evil, yes. But, if you're looking at the difference between "Chaos" and "Order", VC & TK would definitely fall under order and not disorder. I know it is semantics, but current End Times are drawn between lines of Order (All Elves, Empire/Brets, Lizards, Dwarfs and Undead) versus forces of Chaos/Destruction (Chaos Legion and Skaven and O&G).
The prices for entry for GW games are actually pretty disgusting these days.
I look back at my own introduction to the hobby, of going into a GW store and being able to pick up a small epic force, and get into Blood Bowl, and think that if that had happened in 2015 I would have had to walk straight back out of the store again. It would have been the same for many of my fellow wargamers who are of a similar age.
The pricing structure has moved it out of the range of the middle classes, so that it is only an option for the rich, which I am convinced is why the sales continue to drop year after year. There just isn't the demographic of wealthy kids able to spend £200-300 on rules and miniatures, to play the games as GW would have you play, while there is so much out there competing for the spending money of that age group.
Yes there are lots of other wargaming alternatives available, but for the time being GW still dominates the high street in the UK in terms of wargaming stores, and if you don't know anyone (in terms of friends of family) that plays at a club then there is no opportunity for you to discover the industry through that route.
I honestly don't believe we are likely to see GW correct their course with pricing. Even if lower miniature counts are introduced, they will find other ways to prop up the price such as a higher price per miniature, or increasing amounts of codex creep and DLC needed to play the game. History has shown this to be the case, and GW are very astute in this regard.
At this point, I'm hopeful that the likes of Wayland Games will follow through with their promise of new FLGS across the UK, and at least we can see the free market in action, and some other companies that are able to offer the wargaming experience for far less continue to rise in prominence.
36 dollars for 43 guys? Not a bad deal Warlord, not a bad deal...
I wouldn't say the games have been priced for the rich. They've just been priced out of the range of the demographics that most of us were when we first discovered GW's various products.
I can remember going to a hobby shop with 20 bucks from my birthday and snagging a handful of various blisters, usually because they were priced reasonably, and doubly so if I picked up figures from a company trying to ride on GW's coattails.
Bring back those kinds of prices, you'll get the kids back in. If the kids are even what they want these days.
@streamdragon: Why making a skirmish game at the expense of the big one? We're talking about GW here, that's why. You know, the world shouldn't see things like nazis, anti-vaxers, animal cruelty and gw buisness practices, but, alas, we don't live in magic pony-fairy kingdom.
My biggest fear is not the shake-up of the old factions. As I said, I'm no fantasy player, but I understand your pain there. No, my biggest fear is that they will release this skirmish edition with pretty much the same old, clunky, bloated rules. Instead of simplicity and dynamic game flow you'll get the same slow pace that was before (slowed even further down by more random tables and USRs that cause lots of re-rolling for minor gains).
So not only will your army be outdated, your game experience wont improve. If they get rid of some outdated units but instead make the game more dynamic, that would be a good deal in my book.
Kosake wrote: Dude, I agree that a lot of people will be pissed because 90% of their army will get a lot of shelve time now. I merely try to point out that it might have it's good sides too. Look at me: I've never played fantasy, and with the clunky rules and tons of models I'd have to make, there's no chance in hell i'm going to try 8th ed WHFB. Make it a small-unit game with say 3-5 squads of up to 5 models and streamline the rules (a lot) and I might try it. So as a dirty scheme to get new blood in, this doesn't seem too bad.
The strategy is a bummer for veterans, but when did GW ever do something for them (in the last 15 years, at least)?
I have a funny feeling the small model count will require huge models, so you'll maybe have a regiment of infantry, some cavalry, backed up by some giant war machines and a giant lord character on 120+mm bases.
I have a funny feeling the small model count will require huge models, so you'll maybe have a regiment of infantry, some cavalry, backed up by some giant war machines and a giant lord character on 120+mm bases.
Yeah. Now make the lord character a cool robot and call it warmachine... ^_°
A fair bit since my last post so I'd just like to offer a thumbs-up to Korinov, and Wehrkind's last post, and a big ol' facepalm to some of the rest of you, especially xxvaderxx and Fullheadofhair. If you think old editions and 'dead' games are completely gone, with no hope of a resurgence in popularity, then you really need to talk to some Bloodbowlers, the Epic gamers at Tactical Command, or the Oldhammers. I particularly admire the latter group: just said 'feth it!', pulled WFB 3rd ed off their bookshelves, and had (or, should I say, 'are having') a blast. Didn't give the tiniest crap about which edition was the current one, or if some people halfway across the country weren't playing it - particularly those hallowed, mythical beasts called 'new gamers' - or whose polystyrene puppy GW kicked this week. They just made half a fuss about what they liked and enjoyed.
If you resent the idea of putting in effort to sustain your personal hobby (stop fretting about the wider trends in wargaming; it's so unhelpful) and are frustrated by the bizarre, rationalised, but ironically irrational stance folk take in regard to GW's two core games (whether for or against!) then welcome to the world of gaming outside the GW compound. There are quite a few of us out here who don't have our games fall into our laps in a nice, neat pile, and don't expect it to. Sometimes that does mean going without for a while, and making compromises in rules and model choices; but sometimes that can also be a motivation to wheedle and cajole, even build and organise a little, when you realise GW ain't holdin' yer hand, and maybe even that you don't need it to.
If that's not good enough, have fun sulking in the corner and doing nothing about it. Sounds like a wheeze.
Also, I changed my sig a bit, just for you. Do you like it? Does it make my post's bum look big?
Vermis wrote: A fair bit since my last post so I'd just like to offer a thumbs-up to Korinov, and Wehrkind's last post, and a big ol' facepalm to some of the rest of you, especially xxvaderxx and Fullheadofhair. If you think old editions and 'dead' games are completely gone, with no hope of a resurgence in popularity, then you really need to talk to some Bloodbowlers, the Epic gamers at Tactical Command, or the Oldhammers. I particularly admire the latter group: just said 'feth it!', pulled WFB 3rd ed off their bookshelves, and had (or, should I say, 'are having') a blast. Didn't give the tiniest crap about which edition was the current one, or if some people halfway across the country weren't playing it - particularly those hallowed, mythical beasts called 'new gamers' - or whose polystyrene puppy GW kicked this week. They just made half a fuss about what they liked and enjoyed.
If you resent the idea of putting in effort to sustain your personal hobby (stop fretting about the wider trends in wargaming; it's so unhelpful) and are frustrated by the bizarre, rationalised, but ironically irrational stance folk take in regard to GW's two core games (whether for or against!) then welcome to the world of gaming outside the GW compound. There are quite a few of us out here who don't have our games fall into our laps in a nice, neat pile, and don't expect it to. Sometimes that does mean going without for a while, and making compromises in rules and model choices; but sometimes that can also be a motivation to wheedle and cajole, even build and organise a little, when you realise GW ain't holdin' yer hand, and maybe even that you don't need it to.
If that's not good enough, have fun sulking in the corner and doing nothing about it. Sounds like a wheeze.
Also, I changed my sig a bit, just for you. Do you like it? Does it make my post's bum look big?
You, literally every time you post about this subject:
Out of interest, what would you suggest the person who, in your example, is "halfway across the country" from the courageous Oldhammer heroes who don't care about what anyone else is playing, and can't persuade anyone that games locally to follow their example? "Tough"? And how about the many, many folks out there who have commitments outside their wargaming hobby that don't leave them enough time to take on the responsibility of reviving an entire community of gamers single-handed? "Too bad, so sad"? As hard as it apparently is for you to imagine, the solutions that work for you are not universally applicable, nor universally desirable - I'm lucky enough to have plenty of free time at the moment, so I can afford to put in the necessary effort to try and force a revival of Mordheim at a local club so I have opponents to play against, but that doesn't render me incapable of grasping that other people's circumstances might not allow for that amount of time & effort to be spent on wargaming, and so empathise with their regret and/or annoyance that GW discontinued the game and stopped supporting it, so making it hard for them to find games.
People play games that other people near them are playing. When numbers drop below a certain critical mass, they all start to play a different game. One of my local groups is basically a giant wheel of different games being seized, played energetically for a few months, and then the majority of players move on to another thing, while still keeping that earlier game around for occasional flings.
When a new edition of Warhammer launches, everyone in wargaming will either decide to invest in it or to ignore it. Current ownership of armies is not the sole determinant in that decision, from what I can tell; lots leave, lots enter. Those that ignore it will not be able to continue investing (time, money, etc) in the prior edition for the simple fact that few others in their local area will make the same decision. So instead they will move on to another game, and whichever game is most popularly played in their area will be one of the primary factors at that point.
This has long been Warhammer's strength, i.e. that you can pretty much always guarantee getting a game of it. When or if that changes - when I can't assume that buying a WFB army will automatically give me a solid local base of players to game against - then WFB will truly be in trouble. In some areas that point may have already been passed, judging from forum comments, but happily not in my area. Regardless, the prior edition will almost never be a valid game to keep to, simply because the available player base will dwindle to nothing.
Yodhrin wrote: You, literally every time you post about this subject:
That was unnecesarily rude.
As for what you've said regarding situations where the "feth the companies, let's enjoy my game as I like it" decision is really difficult, don't think for a second I can't understand what you're trying to say. In fact, I play 7th edition 40k because the 40k players in my area are the kind of guys who enjoy playing the "up-to-date" rules (most of them are tournament-type players so it's kinda understandable). As for Fantasy, 8th edition almost managed to completely destroy it in my town, almost nobody plays it anymore - and when I see people playing it, most of the time it's "paperhammer" and "cardboardhammer" taken to extreme levels. And who can blame them, specially the younger players. The cost of entry is just too insanely high, and getting to know alternative models from non-GW manufacturers can take quite an effort for someone new to the hobby.
Still, I prefer to have what I'd call a "positive" approach. Because simply accepting things as they are without even a try to change something will end up effectively killing the warhammer scene sooner or later. Each year that goes by, GW cares less and less for the rules and the player base. A few years down the road and they may just shift their entire business to a very limited and (even more) ridiculously expensive collectors market. Which will likely award them a spot in the guinness book as the company able to sell worthless plastic for the highest amount of money.
Meanwhile, new companies selling decent quality fantasy resin models at 1€/mini. It's a battle GW truly intends to lose, and the sooner the players stop being dependent on the companies' whims, the better.
Note that this shouldn't be appliable only to GW customers. Usually, the bigger a company gets, the more it cares for its customers' money and the less for the customers themselves. Warmachine players beware.
I wish GW would just stick to their "real life Renaissance empires in a dark low Fanasy world" setting instead of trying to be the next generic high fantasy setting and instead go for a A song of fire and ice in the renaissance era
Dragons, demons, wizards, magical banners, and monsters are not exactly "low fantasy". I suppose you could argue that Bretonnians are low fantasy, but nearly nothing else is. As for the renaissance, the only thing that looks like it might/maybe touch on it are a few things in The Empire. Maybe.
Breotan wrote: Dragons, demons, wizards, magical banners, and monsters are not exactly "low fantasy". I suppose you could argue that Bretonnians are low fantasy, but nearly nothing else is. As for the renaissance, the only thing that looks like it might/maybe touch on it are a few things in The Empire. Maybe.
It's the rarity of that stuff that determines whether a world is high or low fantasy IMO, not whether or not it exists at all - people forget that the tabletop game is NOT the background, it's tiny slices of the background focusing on the largest battles of the military. For most citizens of the Empire, magic and magic users are things they never see and live in perpetual fear of, daemons are ill-defined superstitions just as they were in reality, and as for monsters hell most people in the Empire, even high-ranking nobility, don't even believe the Skaven exist and don't know them by that name. You could argue High Elven society in the WHW is high fantasy, but none of the human realms, and the world as a whole was designed around the idea of essentially importing a handful of high fantasy concepts and fables into a low fantasy world to give it some extra flavour - a medieval-to-renaissance mashup of European society with the added hook that all the horrible superstitions of the time are real and actually do want to eat your face.
Breotan wrote: Dragons, demons, wizards, magical banners, and monsters are not exactly "low fantasy". I suppose you could argue that Bretonnians are low fantasy, but nearly nothing else is. As for the renaissance, the only thing that looks like it might/maybe touch on it are a few things in The Empire. Maybe.
The fact that things like magic in the past lore was a rare and dangerous thing. As for the A song of fire and ice part, I was thinking about the political back stabbings in the Human Kingdoms, especially the Empire.
I would say amongst many of the fantasy settings today, Warhammer is closer to Song of fire and ice because it emphasizes the fact that it is a Medieval/Renaissance/Early Modern setting, in other words, life freaking sucks for the common folk
and its not much better for those nobility that lack access to magic either
Much like the actual 16th century Europe, life sucked, and everyone and nature are working against you
Well, it is confirmed who the final incarnates are now. Most of this isn't necessarily new news as the images earlier in this post confirmed the new Incarnates (taken from the GW purchase page).
Also included are background and rules for the full range of new Warriors of Chaos miniatures, including the Khorne Wrathmongers, Khorne Skullreapers, and the three ranks of Bloodthirsters – The Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury, The Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage, and The Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster. It also includes rules for the following new Incarnates: Balthasar Gelt, Incarnate of Metal, Tyrion, Incarnate of Light, Grimgor, Incarnate of Beasts and Caradryan, Incarnate of Fire. As well as this there are rules and background for Isabella the Accursed and Archaon Everchosen.
Most interesting bit is that Isabella is in here with a stat line - that one hadn't been completely confirmed by pics released earlier. Will be interesting to see what happens with her and Vlad storywise.
There are more narrative battles as seen before. One bit that might be giving us more of an idea as to what to expect for special rules for formations:
Warhammer: Archaon Book 2 is an 80-page rules book that contains Armies of the End Times: new army selection rules to represent the desperate battles fought at the time that Archaon moves to crush the Warhammer world. There are also the Lords of Battle campaign rules and Halting the Apocalypse narrative campaign, 12 scenarios inspired by the narrative, and 9 Battlescrolls detailing armies and formations depicted in the story.
I am going to guess that Battlescrolls will be a huge push in 9th Ed or whatever the next edition is as they are going all out with it in this and the Thanquol release.
Something just struck me. This year a big change is coming for WHFB. Also there is a Total War: Warhammer more or less unofficially confirmed. Also hinted lately is that news about this is to come this year. Maybe these 2 things are linked? Also will the game be set in the old or new setting?
Allot wrote: Something just struck me. This year a big change is coming for WHFB. Also there is a Total War: Warhammer more or less unofficially confirmed. Also hinted lately is that news about this is to come this year. Maybe these 2 things are linked? Also will the game be set in the old or new setting?
GW linking non LOTR model releases with the release of an external thing that might drive people to their store?
LazzurusMan wrote: So Noone in this thread has seen that the old world is destroyed at the end of archaon?
This really worries me as I was just about to start fantasy again
That was kinda the point of the End Times, no?
The very first rumours, months before Nagash, said as much. Warhammer doesn't make enough money, but GW decided to send it off with a bit of a bang, instead of dropping it quietly. Hence, the End Times.
Apparently Warhammer does not give as much money as Warhammer 40,000 and [Games Workshop] have decided to "close a big way".
Yeah. Chaos Gods even get bored with their victory and move onto another planet. Warhammer is such an afterthought now even the Chaos Gods don't care about it...
Allot wrote: Something just struck me. This year a big change is coming for WHFB. Also there is a Total War: Warhammer more or less unofficially confirmed. Also hinted lately is that news about this is to come this year. Maybe these 2 things are linked? Also will the game be set in the old or new setting?
GW linking non LOTR model releases with the release of an external thing that might drive people to their store?
Or GW telling Creative Assembly to release according to their schedual.
Allot wrote: Something just struck me. This year a big change is coming for WHFB. Also there is a Total War: Warhammer more or less unofficially confirmed. Also hinted lately is that news about this is to come this year. Maybe these 2 things are linked? Also will the game be set in the old or new setting?
GW linking non LOTR model releases with the release of an external thing that might drive people to their store?
Or GW telling Creative Assembly to release according to their schedual.
CA is the property of SEGA, i.e. GW doesn't get to tell CA anything. Also GW has never done any tie in with any of their more successful licenses like the Dawn of War series, it is highly doubtful that they would start now.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah. Chaos Gods even get bored with their victory and move onto another planet. Warhammer is such an afterthought now even the Chaos Gods don't care about it...
So it really is true? The Old World is really dead and Bubbleverse is a go?
Is anyone able (and willing) to quickly summarise the end state of the Old World? Do we have that information yet? I assume that it is bad news since, you know, End Times.
Charles Rampant wrote: Is anyone able (and willing) to quickly summarise the end state of the Old World? Do we have that information yet? I assume that it is bad news since, you know, End Times.
Charles Rampant wrote: Is anyone able (and willing) to quickly summarise the end state of the Old World? Do we have that information yet? I assume that it is bad news since, you know, End Times.
There you go. Spoilers. Obviously.
Spoiler:
Bleah.
So whatever comes, the armies and world that first got me into the GW games is gone, and with it, probably, my enthusiasm to play WFB.
Honestly, I believe the figure at the end of everything was Sigmar. There will be a reset, but I am pretty sure that most of what was will still remain, as in trying to save as much as he can from a previous time or manifest things anew.
It's not unlike GW to have an over arching story and be like, "Meh, it didn't happen."
shade1313 wrote: So whatever comes, the armies and world that first got me into the GW games is gone, and with it, probably, my enthusiasm to play WFB.
Considering pretty much no one was buying, at this point it's no loss. Especially considering vets spend the least on the game.
I look forward to seeing as what shakes out of this before I'm drawing any judgement on the game.
Avrik_Shasla wrote: Honestly, I believe the figure at the end of everything was Sigmar. There will be a reset, but I am pretty sure that most of what was will still remain, as in trying to save as much as he can from a previous time or manifest things anew.
It's not unlike GW to have an over arching story and be like, "Meh, it didn't happen."
Well, GW can go with one of 3 ways:
If they go with the "it was all a dream" cop out, then that is a pretty big feth you to all the people that have spent how many hundreds of euros / dolars / kwanzas to buy all the End Time books and miniatures.
If the Old World really died and all the rumours about the bubble verse and completely revamped game are true, then that is a big feth you to all the people that already have armies that suddenly become unsupported, not to mention to those of us old timers that got into the hobby because of the current WHFB setting.
If GW goes with the "this is what will eventually happen" and freezes the fluff in the 30 seconds to midnight moment, then that severely stunts any future options for setting development.
None of the above is even remotely desirable and GW really should have known better by now that they can't write themselves into a corner like this, because no matter where they turn to, it will piss off a significant amount of their fanbase and they will loose people because of it.
Charles Rampant wrote: Is anyone able (and willing) to quickly summarise the end state of the Old World? Do we have that information yet? I assume that it is bad news since, you know, End Times.
There you go. Spoilers. Obviously.
Spoiler:
Bleah.
So whatever comes, the armies and world that first got me into the GW games is gone, and with it, probably, my enthusiasm to play WFB.
If the Old World really died and all the rumours about the bubble verse and completely revamped game are true, then that is a big feth you to all the people that already have armies that suddenly become unsupported, not to mention to those of us old timers that got into the hobby because of the current WHFB setting.
Well, this wasn't a feasible option anyhow, at least recently (partly, even mostly due to GW's mistakes, pricing, etc.. I know).
Either way, it was "shut down WFB in the BFG-style"... i.e. just take it off the website, or shut down WFB with a bit of a bang, e.g. do a fancy "End Times" campaign that says "thanks for 30 years.. have a good one."
Whatever comes after, for whatever financial/business/accounting-reasons, would've happened anyways. The 3 people still invested with WFB-armies would've gotten the short stick anyhow. At least somebody, somewhere did find the management-goodwill to send WFB off with a more-or-less epic 5-book campaign.
I wish Necromunda, Bloodbowl, etc.. would've gotten a cool (if smaller) "it's-over-and-thanks-for-all-the-fish"-campaign send-off.
PhantomViper wrote: If the Old World really died and all the rumours about the bubble verse and completely revamped game are true, then that is a big feth you to all the people that already have armies that suddenly become unsupported, not to mention to those of us old timers that got into the hobby because of the current WHFB setting.
That's an overreaction based on a sunk cost fallacy. Vets don't spend much money and weren't keeping the game afloat. When it comes down to "the game is failing, we need to kill it or change it" at least they're trying something.
PhantomViper wrote: None of the above is even remotely desirable and GW really should have known better by now that they can't write themselves into a corner like this, because no matter where they turn to, it will piss off a significant amount of their fanbase and they will loose people because of it.
And what part of their fanbase is actually spending money on Fantasy? Fantasy hasn't been in the top 10 war games for over two years now. It's burning money right now. It frankly needs to be changed before it gets dropped completely.
My mate was new to WHFB, and has built and painted two armies in about 18 months. 3k+ each of Dwarfs and Night Goblins. Incredibly well painted. B*stard. He's never painted before... Anyways - 99% of it came from eBay, a few Direct Only NG pieces aside.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah. Chaos Gods even get bored with their victory and move onto another planet. Warhammer is such an afterthought now even the Chaos Gods don't care about it...
Hmm interesting stuff - the Chaos Gods getting bored makes sense and in keeping with bleak reality - in fact I have had Chaos worshipers in games and stories working against final victory as then the game is finished................
I have actually enjoyed the writing and imagery, but very sad if all that was is gone but interested to see what happens next................
ClockworkZion wrote: It frankly needs to be changed before it gets dropped completely.
It needs to be completely rewritten from a rules perspective. Obliterating the fluff (and doubtlessly covering everything thats left in skulls and a 12 year old's version of GRIM DARK) is foolish to the point of madness.
Warhammer is one of the most iconic wargames in the world, it deserves so much more than this.
PhantomViper wrote: If the Old World really died and all the rumours about the bubble verse and completely revamped game are true, then that is a big feth you to all the people that already have armies that suddenly become unsupported, not to mention to those of us old timers that got into the hobby because of the current WHFB setting.
That's an overreaction based on a sunk cost fallacy. Vets don't spend much money and weren't keeping the game afloat. When it comes down to "the game is failing, we need to kill it or change it" at least they're trying something.
PhantomViper wrote: None of the above is even remotely desirable and GW really should have known better by now that they can't write themselves into a corner like this, because no matter where they turn to, it will piss off a significant amount of their fanbase and they will loose people because of it.
And what part of their fanbase is actually spending money on Fantasy? Fantasy hasn't been in the top 10 war games for over two years now. It's burning money right now. It frankly needs to be changed before it gets dropped completely.
Oh, I agree completely with you. Fantasy needed to change or it would die completely.
But GW could have changed it back to the game that it was in 6th and 7th editions, the most popular editions of the game and those where it experienced the biggest growth.
Instead, changing it like they are doing now only ensures that the even more once loyal customers will arbour even more ill will towards the company.
And vets aren't the biggest spenders in a product, that is a fact, but in a product that depends on social interaction and word of mouth to expand, veterans play a vital role. They are the recruiting tools that miniature wargames depend on. They are the core around which gaming groups are formed. That was what killed Fantasy: 8th edition alienated the vast majority of veteran players and without those veteran players, no new blood was being recruited which led to the sorry state in which Fantasy is now.
It's actually quite interesting, Fantasy down at my FLGS is larger now than it ever has been, out classing now tournaments of Warmachine and Hordes, where Privateer press's system has dominated where I live. It would be sad to see so much love and interest be poured into a five volume set, getting people interested with such gorgeous models and rules, getting new players interested and then drop it like it was the first born child of Games-workshop that they just didn't want to work with anymore.
If anything, I do hope to see this turn into something more than a drop off. It doesn't feel like it honestly, Games-workshop usually tends to let players know their future plans with little snippets, much like, "But it is also the beginning", of course that sounds hopeful.
ClockworkZion wrote: It frankly needs to be changed before it gets dropped completely.
It needs to be completely rewritten from a rules perspective. Obliterating the fluff (and doubtlessly covering everything thats left in skulls and a 12 year old's version of GRIM DARK) is foolish to the point of madness.
Warhammer is one of the most iconic wargames in the world, it deserves so much more than this.
It's iconic, but with it hemorraging people just a rules change isn't enough anymore. A rules change would have worked 3 years ago, but at this point it needs more than that.
And I don't blame the apprehension, but you're putting the cart before the horse when you judge the new setting before it's even out.
PhantomViper wrote: If the Old World really died and all the rumours about the bubble verse and completely revamped game are true, then that is a big feth you to all the people that already have armies that suddenly become unsupported, not to mention to those of us old timers that got into the hobby because of the current WHFB setting.
That's an overreaction based on a sunk cost fallacy. Vets don't spend much money and weren't keeping the game afloat. When it comes down to "the game is failing, we need to kill it or change it" at least they're trying something.
PhantomViper wrote: None of the above is even remotely desirable and GW really should have known better by now that they can't write themselves into a corner like this, because no matter where they turn to, it will piss off a significant amount of their fanbase and they will loose people because of it.
And what part of their fanbase is actually spending money on Fantasy? Fantasy hasn't been in the top 10 war games for over two years now. It's burning money right now. It frankly needs to be changed before it gets dropped completely.
Oh, I agree completely with you. Fantasy needed to change or it would die completely.
But GW could have changed it back to the game that it was in 6th and 7th editions, the most popular editions of the game and those where it experienced the biggest growth.
Instead, changing it like they are doing now only ensures that the even more once loyal customers will arbour even more ill will towards the company.
And vets aren't the biggest spenders in a product, that is a fact, but in a product that depends on social interaction and word of mouth to expand veterans play a vital role. They are the recruiting tools that miniature wargames depend on. They are the core around which gaming groups are formed. That was what killed Fantasy: 8th edition alienated the vast majority of veteran players and without those veteran players, no new blood was being recruited which led to the sorry state in which Fantasy is now.
Vets complaining about Fantasy changing has been generating more buzz for it than the Vets were on their own before.
Then again vets bitch about everything. Because change is bad to anyone who has more than $5 invested into war gaming apparently.
There's a lot of fear in this thread about things we don't know yet. We've only heard rumours.
It seems incredibly unlikely that GW will outright squat whole armies immediately at 9th edition. Alternatively, what does seem likely, and the rumours seem to point to it, is that some armies will cease to be as entities of ongoing support. They will still be playable and they will likely have the option to be used folded into existing or new armies, but they won't see new army books.
If you're a player of one of those armies, there's not much to say other than, "that sucks, yo."
----
What I continue to have a fear for, however, is that GW has not truly realized that the overwhelming reason for fantasy's decline was likely their progressive creep in the scale and therefore cost of the game. I obviously can't provide empirical evidence for this, but anecdotal evidence makes this seem like the reason for the game's drop in popularity. I've also heard some dislike of the randomness of 8th edition.
If 9th edition is simply as expensive as 8th, nothing will have changed.
To be fair though, the kind of change that has been rumored (Which, I don't believe 90% of the buzz) is worth 'bitching' about. I've been playing Warhammer Fantasy since 98' and I've loved it. The fluff, the miniatures, the expanding it's done and the way it's gotten so gloom and doom. I have thousands of points invested into multiple armies (A bit more than $5), and I would be rather upset if Games Workshop were to release a version of the game which told me I only needed a fourth of what I own in each of my armies, or that many armies were being wiped out all together.
Again, those rumors make no sense in a business model and practice...but hey...if GW is that crazy to make 9th so far different than a tried and true 30 year old system, then there is always sticking with 8th edition, which is what I would do in the end.
But, the fall of Fantasy truly is because of GW having the self-fulfilling prophecy. They saw that cash grab that was 40k and invested all their resources and love into it forever, they allowed the IP to be put out and some great games like Dawn of War(the game that got me into 40k). All this push into 40k left Fantasy dangling on the side lines forever and has put it into the situation where it is now. Gripping onto the edge of that cliff with it's pinky finger, waiting for GW to pick it up now, or push it off.
Or Maybe Endtimes was GW leaning down to Fantasy, holding on to it's hands and whispering into it's ear, "Long live the King", and then pushing it off the cliff.
Or Maybe Endtimes was GW leaning down to Fantasy, holding on to it's hands and whispering into it's ear, "Long live the King", and then pushing it off the cliff.
I think End Times was GW's eulogy to the king who had fallen off the cliff a few years ago. More importantly, End Times probably was the "we're sorry, have a bone" to the old timers, instead of simply deleting the Fantasy-tab from their website one morning.
PhantomViper wrote: Oh look, the ad hominem attacks have started. It is always such a pleasure trying to discuss anything reasonably with you guys.
Phantom, it's not like they're making huge sweeping changes to a game that costs tons of money to get into or anything. I mean, you act like they're changing the basic structure of the game, doing away with units, changing the way armies look and play and ... oh.
Then again vets bitch about everything. Because change is bad to anyone who has more than $5 invested into war gaming apparently.
Oh look, the ad hominem attacks have started. It is always such a pleasure trying to discuss anything reasonably with you guys.
Saying people bitch about everything isn't a lie. It's a simple observation from every single rumors thread I've ever seen.
That said I'm going to share something I learned in the military (cleaned up a bit for the swearing): "Everyone ALWAYS complains. It's when the complaining stops that there is something wrong."
And in wargaming when the customer base doesn't have make a noise it's because it isn't there anymore.
ClockworkZion wrote: It frankly needs to be changed before it gets dropped completely.
It needs to be completely rewritten from a rules perspective. Obliterating the fluff (and doubtlessly covering everything thats left in skulls and a 12 year old's version of GRIM DARK) is foolish to the point of madness.
Warhammer is one of the most iconic wargames in the world, it deserves so much more than this.
It was one of the most iconic, now it's one of those games that everyone playing other games used to play.
PhantomViper wrote: Oh look, the ad hominem attacks have started. It is always such a pleasure trying to discuss anything reasonably with you guys.
Phantom, it's not like they're making huge sweeping changes to a game that costs tons of money to get into or anything. I mean, you act like they're changing the basic structure of the game, doing away with units, changing the way armies look and play and ... oh.
Yeah, I'm just bitching really. GW only took a setting that I've loved for 20 years and that made me spend thousands of Euros in miniatures, games, books, etc and basically threw it all in the trash (and in one of the most ham fisted ways that I've ever seen). How could I possibly be even a little bit upset about something like that?!
PhantomViper wrote: Oh look, the ad hominem attacks have started. It is always such a pleasure trying to discuss anything reasonably with you guys.
Phantom, it's not like they're making huge sweeping changes to a game that costs tons of money to get into or anything. I mean, you act like they're changing the basic structure of the game, doing away with units, changing the way armies look and play and ... oh.
Yeah, I'm just bitching really. GW only took a setting that I've loved for 20 years and that made me spend thousands of Euros in miniatures, games, books, etc and basically threw it all in the trash (and in one of the most ham fisted ways that I've ever seen). How could I possibly be even a little bit upset about something like that?!
They didn't make you do anything, get over yourself.
Vets complaining about Fantasy changing has been generating more buzz for it than the Vets were on their own before.
Before what exactly?
Before the End Times started. I thought that was pretty clear.
Before the end times started there weren't already any amount of veterans left to speak of. The vast majority left the game when 8th edition was released.
PhantomViper wrote: Oh look, the ad hominem attacks have started. It is always such a pleasure trying to discuss anything reasonably with you guys.
Phantom, it's not like they're making huge sweeping changes to a game that costs tons of money to get into or anything. I mean, you act like they're changing the basic structure of the game, doing away with units, changing the way armies look and play and ... oh.
Yeah, I'm just bitching really. GW only took a setting that I've loved for 20 years and that made me spend thousands of Euros in miniatures, games, books, etc and basically threw it all in the trash (and in one of the most ham fisted ways that I've ever seen). How could I possibly be even a little bit upset about something like that?!
They didn't make you do anything, get over yourself.
Get over myself? Really?
And I didn't say that anyone made me do anything, I said that my love for the setting made me.
Maybe before you start throwing insults around you could work on your reading comprehension.
Maybe so, but it is quite frustrating to find out that all of the miniatures, books, etc you've bought might become totally redundant in the next edition. Especially when dealing with a game like WFB that requires lots and lots of miniatures to start with.
WHFB won't end just because they might be changing things this year. You can still play 8th/End Times with the models you've got. Play the version you're happiest with. No-one's forcing you to play the next rule set but yourself.
Y'know, it surprises me how everyone seems to be forgetting the whole bit from Khaine.
How Araloth is apparently going to be playing out the role of Asuryan(the Creator), and Lileath went out of her way to establish some way to protect him at the core of the Oak of Ages?
Malika2 wrote: Especially when dealing with a game like WFB that requires lots and lots of miniatures to start with.
Which allegedly is one of the things they want to change.
If GW keeps prices high then it won't matter if the model count comes down if there's no monetary savings to go with it. If it costs hundreds of dollars to field an army that's still a barrier to entry regardless of how many models you get for your money.
PhantomViper wrote: Oh look, the ad hominem attacks have started. It is always such a pleasure trying to discuss anything reasonably with you guys.
Phantom, it's not like they're making huge sweeping changes to a game that costs tons of money to get into or anything. I mean, you act like they're changing the basic structure of the game, doing away with units, changing the way armies look and play and ... oh.
Yeah, I'm just bitching really. GW only took a setting that I've loved for 20 years and that made me spend thousands of Euros in miniatures, games, books, etc and basically threw it all in the trash (and in one of the most ham fisted ways that I've ever seen). How could I possibly be even a little bit upset about something like that?!
So an entire setting that's building up to an end times actually cashing in on that is "ham fisted"?
Charles Rampant wrote: Is anyone able (and willing) to quickly summarise the end state of the Old World? Do we have that information yet? I assume that it is bad news since, you know, End Times.
There you go. Spoilers. Obviously.
Spoiler:
Thanks! The writing isn't the best (featuring just about the most overused cliche in Sci Fi/Fantasy), but it is an interesting way to bring everything to an end. Sad to see it come to this, though.
Vets complaining about Fantasy changing has been generating more buzz for it than the Vets were on their own before.
Before what exactly?
Before the End Times started. I thought that was pretty clear.
Before the end times started there weren't already any amount of veterans left to speak of. The vast majority left the game when 8th edition was released.
That was my point. There was no buzz before, this has generated a lot.
Malika2 wrote: Maybe so, but it is quite frustrating to find out that all of the miniatures, books, etc you've bought might become totally redundant in the next edition.
Exactly. It is frustrating.
But this is GW we're talking about. Their total lack of regard for their customers is not a new thing, particularly for those identifying as veterans.
Discussing gaming under GW is like talking to a friend who's in an abusive relationship that they refuse to leave. There is so often talk of how their partner used to be and how they could be if they just changed, yet at the end of the day your friend is still choosing to make themselves party to abuse. It is the same here.
So an entire setting that's building up to an end times actually cashing in on that is "ham fisted"?
I disagree that the setting was building up to any type of catastrophic event before the End Times campaign, and the way that the End Times was portrayed sure is hamfisted: High Elves and Dark Elves becoming brosefs? Skaven shooting a moon from the sky?! Lizardmen cities becoming spaceships?!
For me at least, all of that is pretty cringe worthy.
But this is GW we're talking about. Their total lack of regard for their customers is not a new thing, particularly for those identifying as veterans.
Discussing gaming under GW is like talking to a friend who's in an abusive relationship that they refuse to leave. There is so often talk of how their partner used to be and how they could be if they just changed, yet at the end of the day your friend is still choosing to make themselves party to abuse. It is the same here.
That was my point. There was no buzz before, this has generated a lot.
This generated allot of bad publicity and even more ill will towards GW.
That whole "even bad publicity is good publicity" only really works when we are talking about trashy reality TV shows.
The only negativity I've really seen has come from the die hard vets. And locally even those have started to be won over by the End Times in general and are feeling some hype for the possibilities an updated setting can bring.
That was my point. There was no buzz before, this has generated a lot.
This generated allot of bad publicity and even more ill will towards GW.
That whole "even bad publicity is good publicity" only really works when we are talking about trashy reality TV shows.
The only negativity I've really seen has come from the die hard vets. And locally even those have started to be won over by the End Times in general and are feeling some hype for the possibilities an updated setting can bring.
It's really only good news. There has been a lot of hype around the End times, and there are only the Vets that are screaming about it. I am a vet, but I like change, especially when it means they will continue the game, which is what they are doing.
Malika2 wrote: Maybe so, but it is quite frustrating to find out that all of the miniatures, books, etc you've bought might become totally redundant in the next edition. Especially when dealing with a game like WFB that requires lots and lots of miniatures to start with.
Well they kind of do since, you know no one plays the old editions...
You can't go get pick up games with old rule books... you have to know people who want to play, and if you don't, you're kind of screwed.
It does suck that an army I worked so hard on will become utterly worthless, I mean people barely play 8th ed round where I am, and no one is gonna play this travesty of a game.
It's iconic, but with it hemorraging people just a rules change isn't enough anymore.
It would be enough. Fantasy was popular before 8th, despite some deep issues but 8th killed it stone dead and its easy to see why.
The reasons why WHFB was popular still exist, at least their ghosts do, and it would be possible to revive the game using nothing but updated rules.
By updated I mean a complete root and branch overhaul. None of the ultimately counterproductive fiddling that GW has contented itself with but hiring some competent games designers to rebuild the rules completely from the ground up with a clear vision of what the game should be. That, and only that, is what would get me interested in the game again.
Obliterating the fluff, which is exactly what is occurring with the 'end times' will categorically not save the game and I strongly suspect that it will hasten its demise.
Personally I started seriously wargaming with 4th ed (and I stared buying toy soldiers a few years before that) but the absolute trainwreck of 8th and the steadily decreasing quality of the game as a whole has now left me so indifferent to the fate of WHFB that I gave away my armies. After over 2 decades I don't like to see it dying to this shoddy horror though.
Hopefully someone competent will pick up the license when GW finally dies and rolls back all this insanity.
It's iconic, but with it hemorraging people just a rules change isn't enough anymore.
It would be enough. Fantasy was popular before 8th, despite some deep issues but 8th killed it stone dead and its easy to see why.
No, 8th edition is actually the best ruleset they've written when combined with the best balanced army books they've written. Fantasy was dying a slow death as GW continually raised their prices.
6th and 7th editionw ere unbalanced piles of junk as far as rules were concerned. Plus there was total army book power level discrepancy. Magic was also ridiculous. Sure, individual spells were less powerful, but some armies were capable of generating 20+ power dice while others could barely get 7 or 8.
8th edition magic is the weak link in the ruleset, but overall the ruleset is superior. Blocks of infantry are strong anchors, but are countered by massive output of attacks and/or magic. Maneuverability skill is still the deciding factor in games.
Avrik_Shasla wrote: I honestly still don't see how people think that they are Ending Warhammer Fantasy.
I mean...come now...the spoiled page ends with it obviously continuing.
Seems like there are many who want Fantasy to end, but, it's not.
Yeah, it says that the universe continues, but how? In what form? They wrote the ultimate ambiguous ending. "Everything was destroyed, except for one guy, who gained the power to change everything, and so he changed everything. The End."
With that ending, 9th edition could be literally anything they want. If they want to rewind all of the changes they just made, they can. If they want to throw out all of the background and models and start completely fresh, they can. If they want to can it altogether, this would be the opportune moment.
The point is that GW has left all of their options open with this ending, and given their recent efforts for WHFB and 40K, many of us have little faith that they can pull it off.
ClockworkZion wrote: Rules changes aren't enough 6-7 years after the edition kicked out any hopes of new players.
You need a lot more to generate interest than that.
So, you're saying that in the hopes of drawing in new players, they're going to alienate the older players who have invested so much time/money/energy into the established background and currently existing armies. I get that you're excited, yay for you, but some of us are a little put out about the current rumors and how the end result will affect our ability to enjoy a product in which we've invested heavily. You can be mature and accept that our opinions are equally valid to your own excitement or you can childishly gloat about how our thousands of dollars are going down the drain. Give me a call next time you have an auto-accident, a home damaged by a storm or some like event that results in you losing the enjoyment of several thousand dollars of your hard-earned money so I can come over to your house and do this:
GW tried relying on old players alone to float Fantasy and it failed. Don't get salty with me because they finally know how important fresh blood in the game is.
It's iconic, but with it hemorraging people just a rules change isn't enough anymore.
It would be enough. Fantasy was popular before 8th, despite some deep issues but 8th killed it stone dead and its easy to see why.
No, 8th edition is actually the best ruleset they've written when combined with the best balanced army books they've written. Fantasy was dying a slow death as GW continually raised their prices.
6th and 7th editionw ere unbalanced piles of junk as far as rules were concerned. Plus there was total army book power level discrepancy. Magic was also ridiculous. Sure, individual spells were less powerful, but some armies were capable of generating 20+ power dice while others could barely get 7 or 8.
8th edition magic is the weak link in the ruleset, but overall the ruleset is superior. Blocks of infantry are strong anchors, but are countered by massive output of attacks and/or magic. Maneuverability skill is still the deciding factor in games.
Nope, you are wrong. Incredibly, hugely, humongously wrong.
I can't even begin to imagine what type of mental gymnastics you have to make to argue that the edition that caused the collapse of the game, both in the number of players and in sales is somehow the "best edition ever".
Or that the most balanced editions of the game are actually the worse... because reasons...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ClockworkZion wrote: GW tried relying on old players alone to float Fantasy and it failed. Don't get salty with me because they finally know how important fresh blood in the game is.
For the hundredth time, they didn't try to rely on old players to float Fantasy because all the old players left when 8th edition was released. And this new "bubbleverse" edition will fail even harder because not only does it seem to share the same failings that 8th edition had (and a whole lot of crap inherited from 6th edition 40k), they now destroyed the strongest remaining trump card that they had: the setting.
6th was fantastic. Options were pretty close to endless, and had some actual fluffy choices you could make. Khorne units: extra dispel dice. Makes total sense, yes please. Tzeentch extra casting dice. Also a big yes. Frenzied models could be led around by the nose if you were a competent general. I could go on for pages, but I'm at work. So it's short and sweet.
Im an old school veteran of GW who has survived since the beginning. Many edition reloads, but this is by far the most dramatic! Rules and Fluffwise!!!
WFB for me has always been the big armies going toe to toe and having skirmish style as a secondary. Seems the roles will just be reversed now, following the coattails of
some other games which run this style. War machine for example.
I know a lot of people not buying new armies though, as no one is sure if that army will be around for the next edition. WFB is big in my area but the destruction of the known
WFB world leaves everyone wondering and confused on what the end product will be. From my point of view it looks like were going the Warhmachine route with the small
skirmisher forces and probably have alternative rules to run the BIG BATTLES. Maybe Mega Battles will be it large forces of old going toe to toe. Grand Tournaments with
the massive hosts?
Now one more thing for this grumbler is I am a bit perturbed on the mashing of forces. Each of the armies had their own flavor and play style which is what I also really enjoyed
about WFB. I hope that don't go to far and lose the identity of the various races.
End of Times is almost at hand... I just hope there is a Dwarf Hold to go back to... somewhere
The Magic system in the last few editions put me off WFB for good, although I liked a lot of what they did in 8th - premeasuring, charging, step up, etc.
The new "not Magic" system in 40k has also put me off 7th Ed sadly.
Now really just buy stuff for the fluff and pretty models so the rules element is of little interest unless to steers back towards the games I like.
@PhantomViper it failing is why we have the End Times. But 8th edition with it's push towards large model could ts was most certainly an attempt to cater to vets.
A failure doesn't mean it wasn't tried, it means what was tried didn't work.
It's iconic, but with it hemorraging people just a rules change isn't enough anymore.
It would be enough. Fantasy was popular before 8th, despite some deep issues but 8th killed it stone dead and its easy to see why.
No, 8th edition is actually the best ruleset they've written when combined with the best balanced army books they've written. Fantasy was dying a slow death as GW continually raised their prices.
6th and 7th editionw ere unbalanced piles of junk as far as rules were concerned. Plus there was total army book power level discrepancy. Magic was also ridiculous. Sure, individual spells were less powerful, but some armies were capable of generating 20+ power dice while others could barely get 7 or 8.
8th edition magic is the weak link in the ruleset, but overall the ruleset is superior. Blocks of infantry are strong anchors, but are countered by massive output of attacks and/or magic. Maneuverability skill is still the deciding factor in games.
Nope, you are wrong. Incredibly, hugely, humongously wrong.
I can't even begin to imagine what type of mental gymnastics you have to make to argue that the edition that caused the collapse of the game, both in the number of players and in sales is somehow the "best edition ever".
Or that the most balanced editions of the game are actually the worse... because reasons...
I've given many reason why 8th edition is superior and I can give many more. Fantasy failed for many reasons, the rules were not one of them.
1) There was an intense amount of outrage from power games who were pissed their hyper specialized armies were no longer as powerful as they used to be. That led to a big drop off.
2) GW continued to raise prices, and Fantasy is a game which requires a large number of purchases. Again, people were pissed they would have to buy a bunch more models to continue playing the game. While ignoring that the game, if you made those purchases, was superior.
3) People looked at magic and freaked out over the uber powerful 6th spells. Granted, they are too powerful. However, people also didn't bother to look at the big picture. With large blocks of infantry, those 6th spells were needed as a counter. The unreliability of power dice also tempers the spells power with some uncertainty, although its not completely unpredictable as it does still follow a bell curve.
4) Steadfast is an important rule for balance. The old rules where you got super ASF and there was no steadfast led to the absolutely moronic situations of cavalry or monsters charging a block of infantry, killing just the front ranks, and then automatically winning unless the victims rolled snake eyes on their moral test. Cavalry and monsters were way too powerful in the previous incarnation of the rules. Infantry were basically useless, which is neither realistic nor fun. In real life, Cavalry charging the front of a ranked unit were basically committing suicide unless they had massive numbers and the infantry weren't armed with spears.
5) For the first time ever, the game felt like an actual battle game. Prior editions were glorified skirmishes that were trying to pretend they were battles. I found that unfun. Not to mention the army book balance was atrocious. If you weren't daemons, lizardmen, dark elves, or high elves you basically didn't stand much of a chance against those armies.
It would definetly suck if GW ended Fantasy, especially for those who are invested in the game, I think that's pretty undebatable. Warhammer takes a lot of time and effort, and while by no means this would mean you couldn't play anymore, it definetlely would mean that interest (= opportunities to play) in the game would slowly vanish, meaning all your effort/money was "wasted".
But at some point sooner or later, Warhammer would have ended anyway. The question is less, if ending Fantasy sucks, but if ending Fantasy with the Endtimes books and models was a good decision.
The Endtime books are pretty good, and from what can be gathered from the responses on the internet, they are mostly received positively. At least storywise, the endtimes make for a good way to end the IP.
More problematic is the fact, that the endtimes came boundled with some of the largest and most expensive models in fantasy, to date. Should support for fantasy cease immedieatly afterwards, that would leave a bit of a bitter aftertaste, to what I consider one of the better releases GW has brought out recently.
ClockworkZion wrote: @PhantomViper it failing is why we have the End Times. But 8th edition with it's push towards large model could ts was most certainly an attempt to cater to vets.
A failure doesn't mean it wasn't tried, it means what was tried didn't work.
How is forcing players with existing armies to re-buy a large portion of those armies "catering to vets"?
Mr Morden wrote: The Magic system in the last few editions put me off WFB for good, although I liked a lot of what they did in 8th - premeasuring, charging, step up, etc.
The new "not Magic" system in 40k has also put me off 7th Ed sadly.
Now really just buy stuff for the fluff and pretty models so the rules element is of little interest unless to steers back towards the games I like.
The psychic phase was something they had before (and GW has been mining the fek out of 2nd for stuff lately) and it simplifies the whole Psychic powers system. I like it for streamlining things and allowing Psykers to use Witchfires and shoot.
I just wish Witchfires were streamlined because right now they take way too many dice to use properly.
ClockworkZion wrote: @PhantomViper it failing is why we have the End Times. But 8th edition with it's push towards large model could ts was most certainly an attempt to cater to vets.
A failure doesn't mean it wasn't tried, it means what was tried didn't work.
How is forcing players with existing armies to re-buy a large portion of those armies "catering to vets"?
Vets have larger collections and can (and already were) play at higher point levels. The catering to them came from GW saying "take all your models!"
The game just didn't work below certain point levels, and vets could at least hit those point levels. New players were being expected to drop over $600 on starting an army, not to say trying to build it up to being competitive.
Like I said, it was an attempt to cater to long time players who had larger collections of models. I didn't say it was a good idea or that the game could survive like that.
No, 8th edition is actually the best ruleset they've written when combined with the best balanced army books they've written.
AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA oh wait, your serious? I put up with the abuses of Herohammer and truly horrible balance of earlier editions yet 8th pretty much by itself killed my 20 year+ interest in WHFB. Yeah, its a great ruleset.
ClockworkZion wrote: GW tried relying on old players alone to float Fantasy and it failed.
Citation needed.
GW doesn't even bother to do any marketing research, I very much doubt they are sophisticated enough to target any demographic other than teenaged boys.
It would definetly suck if GW ended Fantasy, especially for those who are invested in the game, I think that's pretty undebatable. Warhammer takes a lot of time and effort, and while by no means this would mean you couldn't play anymore, it definetlely would mean that interest (= opportunities to play) in the game would slowly vanish, meaning all your effort/money was "wasted".
But at some point sooner or later, Warhammer would have ended anyway. The question is less, if ending Fantasy sucks, but if ending Fantasy with the Endtimes books and models was a good decision.
The Endtime books are pretty good, and from what can be gathered from the responses on the internet, they are mostly received positively. At least storywise, the endtimes make for a good way to end the IP.
More problematic is the fact, that the endtimes came boundled with some of the largest and most expensive models in fantasy, to date. Should support for fantasy cease immedieatly afterwards, that would leave a bit of a bitter aftertaste, to what I consider one of the better releases GW has brought out recently.
With the spoiler I don't think it's ending, it's rather clear that the setting as we know it right now is ended, but there is also a clear starting point from there too. That short passage isn't clear who specifically won, and what we see next may come be heavily influenced by whomever the winner of the End Times was.
So until we know more it's a continued wait and see.
That said I don't think any of the new stuff is going to be invalidated. I expect Finecast to be updated or the models removed completely though, a lot of the special characters removed (since a good number of them are dead) with a few staying around. I don't have any concrete ideas what the plan for 9th is, but I wouldn't be surprised if we see a post-apocalyptic fantasy setting though (and kind of look forward to the idea honestly because I haven't seen that done too often), and think that it can prove to be an interesting game going forward.
It'll come down to what they do with the rules and setting, but they have plenty of room to work now by doing this and I don't think this was rushed out considering the amount of effort poured into the End Times and the models.
ClockworkZion wrote: GW tried relying on old players alone to float Fantasy and it failed.
Citation needed.
GW doesn't even bother to do any marketing research, I very much doubt they are sophisticated enough to target any demographic other than teenaged boys.
A lack of market research is why it backfired.
Just because something failed doesn't disprove that it wasn't attempted.
agnosto wrote: Give me a call next time you have an auto-accident, a home damaged by a storm or some like event that results in you losing the enjoyment of several thousand dollars of your hard-earned money so I can come over to your house and do this:
Wow, I take The Hobby and lots of nerdy stuff serious, and I think it sucks if they alienate the vets with the new edition,
but if you equal an "auto-accident" or "home damaged by a storm" to you not being able to play warhammer 9th the way you used to play 8th...
Lets just say GW might be doing you a favor adding some perspective to your priorities.
Gives me an idea though -"miniature game insurance"!
Much like your house or car can get wrecked and covered by insurance, a crappy/wrecked war game edition will be duly covered.
Soon on kick starter!
(just kidding folks, just kidding)
I've given many reason why 8th edition is superior and I can give many more. Fantasy failed for many reasons, the rules were not one of them.
1) There was an intense amount of outrage from power games who were pissed their hyper specialized armies were no longer as powerful as they used to be. That led to a big drop off.
Wrong. There was an intense amount of outrage from the existing player base that their varied armies were reduced to a single massive infantry block with spell casters galore. This was a result of the rules change.
2) GW continued to raise prices, and Fantasy is a game which requires a large number of purchases. Again, people were pissed they would have to buy a bunch more models to continue playing the game. While ignoring that the game, if you made those purchases, was superior.
Wrong again. The game was reduced to rolling buckets of dice with no effect and whoever rolled their "death spell" first won. Also the exodus of players happened in the very beginning of 8th edition where the more severe price hikes hadn't happened yet.
And also, people are always pissed that they have to buy new models whenever a new edition of a GW game comes around, but the only time that this generated a player base collapse was with 8th edition? Pull the other one, it has bells on.
3) People looked at magic and freaked out over the uber powerful 6th spells. Granted, they are too powerful. However, people also didn't bother to look at the big picture. With large blocks of infantry, those 6th spells were needed as a counter. The unreliability of power dice also tempers the spells power with some uncertainty, although its not completely unpredictable as it does still follow a bell curve.
People didn't "freak out" over the 6th spell power level, it is pretty obvious to anyone that those spells were built as counters to the humongous infantry blocks. People just didn't wan't to play a game where the only counter to a particular strategy was rolling a particular spell and getting that spell off! This is another sign of an inferior rule set.
4) Steadfast is an important rule for balance. The old rules where you got super ASF and there was no steadfast led to the absolutely moronic situations of cavalry or monsters charging a block of infantry, killing just the front ranks, and then automatically winning unless the victims rolled snake eyes on their moral test. Cavalry and monsters were way too powerful in the previous incarnation of the rules. Infantry were basically useless, which is neither realistic nor fun. In real life, Cavalry charging the front of a ranked unit were basically committing suicide unless they had massive numbers and the infantry weren't armed with spears.
And in previous editions cavalry and monsters could be countered with clever use of tactics. Using small or skirmishing units to redirect their charges, using flanking units or mobile heroes to threaten them, etc, not to mention that they where very vulnerable to war machines.
This made 6th and 7th edition armies much more diverse and tactically interesting than those in 8th edition.
5) For the first time ever, the game felt like an actual battle game. Prior editions were glorified skirmishes that were trying to pretend they were battles. I found that unfun. Not to mention the army book balance was atrocious. If you weren't daemons, lizardmen, dark elves, or high elves you basically didn't stand much of a chance against those armies.
That is your personal opinion and given that 8th edition failed spectacularly, you seem to be in the minority.
Also, again, that lack of army book balance that you mention happened in the end of 7th edition (and I would further argue that the only really problematic one was the Demon army book), prior to that time period, the game had much better balance, both internally and externally than it does today.
Vets have larger collections and can (and already were) play at higher point levels. The catering to them came from GW saying "take all your models!"
The game just didn't work below certain point levels, and vets could at least hit those point levels. New players were being expected to drop over $600 on starting an army, not to say trying to build it up to being competitive.
Like I said, it was an attempt to cater to long time players who had larger collections of models. I didn't say it was a good idea or that the game could survive like that.
But that wasn't what happened with 8th edition. It was never "take all your models". The point bracket at which the game was played didn't change that much.
It was, "see that huge collection of models that you have in the form of multiple units? Forget them, they are unplayable, now go buy double the amount of models that you already had in your infantry units."
Just because something failed doesn't disprove that it wasn't attempted.
I don't want to get stuck in a tangent here but there is absolutely no proof, at least as far as I am aware, that GW has ever even attempted to cater to 'vets' as a distinct demographic. As such its impossible to say that their possibly non existent strategy failed or succeeded.
PhantomViper wrote: I would further argue that the only really problematic one was the Demon army book
Vampire Counts were also ridiculous, or at least they could be.
@PhantomViper I actually thought most of 8th's rules were pretty solid, the issues I saw with it were fairly limited and were mainly in regards to how it couldn't scale down below a certain point.
Just because something failed doesn't disprove that it wasn't attempted.
I don't want to get stuck in a tangent here but there is absolutely no proof, at least as far as I am aware, that GW has ever even attempted to cater to 'vets' as a distinct demographic. As such its impossible to say that their possibly non existent strategy failed or succeeded.
I'd say the core rule design pushing it towards larger model collections was definitely more in favor of the veteran player than the newer player. You can disagree if you like, but that's my interpretation of the game's design.
ClockworkZion wrote: I don't have any concrete ideas what the plan for 9th is, but I wouldn't be surprised if we see a post-apocalyptic fantasy setting though (and kind of look forward to the idea honestly because I haven't seen that done too often), and think that it can prove to be an interesting game going forward.
I agree that post-apocalyptic fantasy is interesting and look forward to seeing where Fantasy goes from here. I always interpreted fantasy as post-apocalyptic already: Old Ones Gone, huge daemonic incursions from the warp energy leaking from the poles, warp energy directly mutating things and raising the dead, random magical fluctuations all over the globe, etc. I suppose 9th ed will be post-post-apocalyptic.
Re edition preferences:
I
Like
BIG BLOCKS
and I cannot lie.
agnosto wrote: Give me a call next time you have an auto-accident, a home damaged by a storm or some like event that results in you losing the enjoyment of several thousand dollars of your hard-earned money so I can come over to your house and do this:
Wow, I take The Hobby and lots of nerdy stuff serious, and I think it sucks if they alienate the vets with the new edition,
but if you equal an "auto-accident" or "home damaged by a storm" to you not being able to play warhammer 9th the way you used to play 8th...
Lets just say GW might be doing you a favor adding some perspective to your priorities.
Gives me an idea though -"miniature game insurance"!
Much like your house or car can get wrecked and covered by insurance, a crappy/wrecked war game edition will be duly covered.
Soon on kick starter!
(just kidding folks, just kidding)
No I equate someone gloating and casting disparaging remarks on the concerns others have regarding their time and monetary investment as similarly egregious. As you correctly point put, at least with the case of home or vehicle loss you have the potential for recompense through insurance. My point was/is, the hee-hawing and so forth could be kept to a minimum if someone is anything other than a troll.
Honestly I didn't think it was post-apoc yet because there weren't wars for resources, just land. Which is pretty common middle-ages/fantasy setting stuff.
No I equate someone gloating and casting disparaging remarks on the concerns others have regarding their time and monetary investment as similarly egregious. As you correctly point put, at least with the case of home or vehicle loss you have the potential for recompense through insurance. My point was/is, the hee-hawing and so forth could be kept to a minimum if someone is anything other than a troll.
Well, but buying toys isn't an investment, it's consumption, and the expectation of viewing it as "investment" is leading to a grossly false sense of entitlement, which is very evidently demonstrated by a fallacious comparison with houses or similar assets.
I've given many reason why 8th edition is superior and I can give many more. Fantasy failed for many reasons, the rules were not one of them.
1) There was an intense amount of outrage from power games who were pissed their hyper specialized armies were no longer as powerful as they used to be. That led to a big drop off.
Wrong. There was an intense amount of outrage from the existing player base that their varied armies were reduced to a single massive infantry block with spell casters galore. This was a result of the rules change.
Single massive blocks? More like multiple massive blocks. Thats actually a good thing.
3) People looked at magic and freaked out over the uber powerful 6th spells. Granted, they are too powerful. However, people also didn't bother to look at the big picture. With large blocks of infantry, those 6th spells were needed as a counter. The unreliability of power dice also tempers the spells power with some uncertainty, although its not completely unpredictable as it does still follow a bell curve.
People didn't "freak out" over the 6th spell power level, it is pretty obvious to anyone that those spells were built as counters to the humongous infantry blocks. People just didn't wan't to play a game where the only counter to a particular strategy was rolling a particular spell and getting that spell off! This is another sign of an inferior rule set.
Your statement here clearly shows you haven't really considered that its fairly easy to get any single spell you want given that if a spell is already known by another wizard you get to choose your spell.
And you don't need the spells to counter the infantry blocks. Another block of troops with high offensive output will also deal with a large block of infantry. True, it can degenerate into a grindfest, but thats why maneuvering is more important than ever. Using skirmishers to block enemy units till you can get a favorable charge.
4) Steadfast is an important rule for balance. The old rules where you got super ASF and there was no steadfast led to the absolutely moronic situations of cavalry or monsters charging a block of infantry, killing just the front ranks, and then automatically winning unless the victims rolled snake eyes on their moral test. Cavalry and monsters were way too powerful in the previous incarnation of the rules. Infantry were basically useless, which is neither realistic nor fun. In real life, Cavalry charging the front of a ranked unit were basically committing suicide unless they had massive numbers and the infantry weren't armed with spears.
And in previous editions cavalry and monsters could be countered with clever use of tactics. Using small or skirmishing units to redirect their charges, using flanking units or mobile heroes to threaten them, etc, not to mention that they where very vulnerable to war machines.
Not everyone had warmachines to counter said monsters, nor did everyone have small units they could use to screen. And many monsters could easily ignore screening units due to flight. They certainly hit monsters too hard, they should count as having 2 ranks for the purposes of breaking steadfast. However cavalry were way too powerful, they were basically guaranteed to win any combat they charged into.
Cavalry are now where they're supposed to be. Flankers meant to aid the main infantry units by dealing with other cavalry and flanking in combat. They're a support unit.
This made 6th and 7th edition armies much more diverse and tactically interesting than those in 8th edition.
Disagree. They're just different. If you aren't seeing tactical diversity in 8th its because you aren't trying. Small units of light cav are still quite good. Small units of skirmishers are quite good. Just like they were before. If anything, they're more important because the infantry they're screening and blocking are a little more deadly. This means you actually have a reason to use skirmishers.
5) For the first time ever, the game felt like an actual battle game. Prior editions were glorified skirmishes that were trying to pretend they were battles. I found that unfun. Not to mention the army book balance was atrocious. If you weren't daemons, lizardmen, dark elves, or high elves you basically didn't stand much of a chance against those armies.
That is your personal opinion and given that 8th edition failed spectacularly, you seem to be in the minority.
Also, again, that lack of army book balance that you mention happened in the end of 7th edition (and I would further argue that the only really problematic one was the Demon army book), prior to that time period, the game had much better balance, both internally and externally than it does today.
Thats pretty obviously wrong given the terrible balance between armies that existed prior to the 8th edition books. And they were unbalanced way before late 7th edition.
Fantasy has clearly been dying from a combination of factors. 1) people not actually honestly evaluating the rules and more being pissed the rules have incentives for larger units. Just combine your smaller units for goodness sakes. 2) Rising prices making the barrier to entry for new players high, and many existing players being older themselves and slowly leaving the hobby from natural attrition 3) A general disenchantment with GW in general.
Saying you left because of the rules for Fantasy is a red herring. I'm sure many people actually believe it, but they didn't give the rules an actual chance. They're actually pretty good, still many flaws of course because its GW, but its not the disaster that many people claim it is.
I'll wait to see what they do before worrying. A reboot could be really cool, expecially if it brings the entry point down and I can start a new Goblin army (I miss my gobbos).
docdoom77 wrote: I'll wait to see what they do before worrying. A reboot could be really cool, expecially if it brings the entry point down and I can start a new Goblin army (I miss my gobbos).
Same here.
While it saddens immensely that some army will probably be squatted (my poor beloved beastmen ), I'm anxious to see what they will bring to rejuvenate the setting.
Gives me an idea though -"miniature game insurance"!
Much like your house or car can get wrecked and covered by insurance, a crappy/wrecked war game edition will be duly covered.
Soon on kick starter!
(just kidding folks, just kidding)
Whats the Kirby Blue Book value on my 6000-ish point Beastmen Army, fully painted and based, with minor conversions?
Mine was destroyed when the world that my miniatures live in was obliterated. I'll need an estimate to take to my local Games Workshop where they will repair it, if its not totaled.
Mr Morden wrote: The Magic system in the last few editions put me off WFB for good, although I liked a lot of what they did in 8th - premeasuring, charging, step up, etc.
The new "not Magic" system in 40k has also put me off 7th Ed sadly.
Now really just buy stuff for the fluff and pretty models so the rules element is of little interest unless to steers back towards the games I like.
The psychic phase was something they had before (and GW has been mining the fek out of 2nd for stuff lately) and it simplifies the whole Psychic powers system. I like it for streamlining things and allowing Psykers to use Witchfires and shoot.
I just wish Witchfires were streamlined because right now they take way too many dice to use properly..
I thought 6th Psychic was fine - a few powers needed sorting but now they have Invisibility - awesome.
It slows the game down IMO as well as having some armies without effective defence - hate the whole idea and execution, rather go back to RT
but back to OP - what do we think we wil keep and loose?
I tried playing Fantasy shortly after Rogue Trader came out. I didn't like it for many of the reasons some people complain about 8th edition. (Rules can be cyclical in nature and new people try to go into old places, sometimes unintentionally.) I very much liked the rules of LotR, but I don't like LotR mythology. The game could handle a handful of heroes or recreations of the epic battles--same rule set either way.
If GW wants to reboot WHFB then their new game must make more money than the last iteration. Sorry, to be so crass, but that's GW's goal. If the last version that required large amounts of figures (and hence large money investment of players) failed then it only seems likely that they would swing the other way and try to rope in lots of players who only need comparatively less miniatures. If buying a battle box that gave you 20-30 troops, some elites and a big model or two around the $150USD and allowed you to play real games happened then Fantasy becomes the miniature wargaming equivalent of an impulse buy. Allow old timers to use their old models and now last gen gamers are less grumpy. But GW's failure will be that it forgets it makes money selling models. Event driven gaming like Privateer Press (and others) creates a narrative to gaming and adds new models for everyone in a set period. Constant cash flow from all players and an cheap buy in is the recipe that makes Fantasy work. The question is can GW overcome their own inertia to actually use a proven plan that works for their customers as well as themselves.
docdoom77 wrote: I'll wait to see what they do before worrying. A reboot could be really cool, expecially if it brings the entry point down and I can start a new Goblin army (I miss my gobbos).
Exactly.
I see this as a chance for GW to turn back the clock and try again with WHFB. Now, this may blow up in their face because it's GW after all...but then again, it might not.
Bottle wrote: Everything is so up in the air. If my army is made useless to use in my local GW I will be sad. :(
I don't think we'll see things made useless as much see combined army lists that allow you to run your army you already own.
The losses I do expect are all the SCs who kicked the bucket, and anything in Finecast (though some might get updated to plastic instead but I won't hold my breath on that).
Chairman Aeon wrote: I tried playing Fantasy shortly after Rogue Trader came out. I didn't like it for many of the reasons some people complain about 8th edition. (Rules can be cyclical in nature and new people try to go into old places, sometimes unintentionally.) I very much liked the rules of LotR, but I don't like LotR mythology. The game could handle a handful of heroes or recreations of the epic battles--same rule set either way.
If GW wants to reboot WHFB then their new game must make more money than the last iteration. Sorry, to be so crass, but that's GW's goal. If the last version that required large amounts of figures (and hence large money investment of players) failed then it only seems likely that they would swing the other way and try to rope in lots of players who only need comparatively less miniatures. If buying a battle box that gave you 20-30 troops, some elites and a big model or two around the $150USD and allowed you to play real games happened then Fantasy becomes the miniature wargaming equivalent of an impulse buy. Allow old timers to use their old models and now last gen gamers are less grumpy. But GW's failure will be that it forgets it makes money selling models. Event driven gaming like Privateer Press (and others) creates a narrative to gaming and adds new models for everyone in a set period. Constant cash flow from all players and an cheap buy in is the recipe that makes Fantasy work. The question is can GW overcome their own inertia to actually use a proven plan that works for their customers as well as themselves.
I look forward to what the future brings.
Iain.
GW's LotR game was the most enjoyable GW game I've ever played (the Battle for Armageddon board game was 2nd). The game was fast, easy to learn, heroes weren't over powered, the ruleset scaled well for bigger games. If WHFB 9 was an overhaul that turned the game into LotR I would be very happy. Unfortunately I don't think GW wants to do that or is capable of doing that.
ClockworkZion wrote: The Old World as we know it is dead. We'll see if it is slain completely in the future.
A distinction without a difference. If the Old World "as we knew it" is dead, it's dead, even if they bring out some new monstrosity hastily draped in the flayed remnants of its skin.
GW's LotR game was the most enjoyable GW game I've ever played (the Battle for Armageddon board game was 2nd). The game was fast, easy to learn, heroes weren't over powered, the ruleset scaled well for bigger games. If WHFB 9 was an overhaul that turned the game into LotR I would be very happy. Unfortunately I don't think GW wants to do that or is capable of doing that.
I said something similar when these rumours first hit. Turn New-hammer into something similar in scope and scale to LotR (individual bases, no 'units'/coherency requirements, 20-50 models a side, toned down magic and Heroes) and I'd buy in pretty easily. The startup cost would be waaaay less than WFB is now, the LotR ruleset is the best GW have ever done (so even if they can't copy it directly due to licencing, they can still take bits here and there to make something great) and the game is overall way more tactical than WFB was in my experience (unit-killing mega-spells are fun now and then, but frankly too heavily focused on in WFB).
It also wouldn't compete with KoW as well, which is on something of a stratosperic rise to power as a premier Fantasy mass battle system (and with good reason, it's amazing).
All this is unlikely, but personally I see it as the best outcome.
We're getting a little off-topic, but I have to back Grey Templar. I've been playing since 4th edition and from a purely rules and army book perspective, 8th edition far outshines any earlier edition. I'm not going to go into the specifics because basically these arguments boil down to personal choice and "That's, just like, your opinion, man."
Mymearan wrote: Isn't 8th being the best edition the majority opinion? That's what I see most frequently at any rate.
Yet WHFB has nearly faded into obscurity to the extent that GW has apparently been forced to near enough blow up the whole world in an attempt to revive its fortunes. Some people evidently think its the best edition but WHFB's abysmal sales tell a different tale.
Mymearan wrote: Isn't 8th being the best edition the majority opinion? That's what I see most frequently at any rate.
Yet WHFB has nearly faded into obscurity to the extent that GW has apparently been forced to near enough blow up the whole world in an attempt to revive its fortunes. Some people evidently think its the best edition but WHFB's abysmal sales tell a different tale.
WHFB's "abysmal sales" and the tale it tells is usually a tale of "Why would people bother getting into the game if all they hear is criticism from their local community?".
It's been interesting to see how big Fantasy has gotten in my neck of the woods after people have actually gotten to see games played and to see people having fun while playing the game.
The thread's pretty useless as it's two months old at this point.
I'm not sure what you're looking to have added to the OP, most of the stuff that has come out in the last two months has been reiterations or variations of what was said a while back. The End Times fluff appears to be leading up to the beginning of 9th and consistent as well. I suppose I could add that quote from the Archaon book the front and jazz up the title, but if there's something else you're looking for specifically let me know.
Ozymandias wrote:We're getting a little off-topic, but I have to back Grey Templar. I've been playing since 4th edition and from a purely rules and army book perspective, 8th edition far outshines any earlier edition. I'm not going to go into the specifics because basically these arguments boil down to personal choice and "That's, just like, your opinion, man."
Mymearan wrote:Isn't 8th being the best edition the majority opinion? That's what I see most frequently at any rate.
I too have to back Grey Templar and these guys. I've never seen as much WHFB interest as I have with 8th and I've been playing since 5th ed. In all 3 states I've lived in since 8th hit, two of which I lived in before 8th, the stores each went from 3-5 players in 6th/7th to 20+ in 8th. There was a lot of bluster on the internet and in the beginning of 8th, but from what I've seen and heard from many people and stores, once people actually got a handle on it and the 8th ed books started hitting, there was a much more favorable reaction and growth of communities.
Hell, WHFB tournaments in Louisiana never needed 90 slots before 8th, but they sure fill 'em now.
Mymearan wrote: Isn't 8th being the best edition the majority opinion? That's what I see most frequently at any rate.
8th as the most commonly played in stores (and likely the only edition played competitively) doesn't make it the best or preferred edition. It just makes it the one that you see.
It's a "beggars can't be choosers" situation.
I might prefer pistachio ice cream as "the best", but if my only choice is chocolate ice cream versus not eating, I'll take chocolate.
Mymearan wrote: Isn't 8th being the best edition the majority opinion? That's what I see most frequently at any rate.
Yet WHFB has nearly faded into obscurity to the extent that GW has apparently been forced to near enough blow up the whole world in an attempt to revive its fortunes. Some people evidently think its the best edition but WHFB's abysmal sales tell a different tale.
That doesn't mean that the rules aren't good though, sales can drop for any number of reasons.
Mymearan wrote: Isn't 8th being the best edition the majority opinion? That's what I see most frequently at any rate.
8th as the most commonly played in stores (and likely the only edition played competitively) doesn't make it the best or preferred edition. It just makes it the one that you see.
It's a "beggars can't be choosers" situation.
I might prefer pistachio ice cream as "the best", but if my only choice is chocolate ice cream versus not eating, I'll take chocolate.
We don't have stores where you can play, I was actually referring to what I see online.
ClockworkZion wrote: The Old World as we know it is dead. We'll see if it is slain completely in the future.
A distinction without a difference. If the Old World "as we knew it" is dead, it's dead, even if they bring out some new monstrosity hastily draped in the flayed remnants of its skin.
I disagree. With the way it ends, we could see stuff coming back, the story still moving forward, but it still changing. Just because we're losing the familiar doesn't mean that it's going to turn into a Warmachine clone or something.
A particularly vocal contingent claimed that better product, better rules, etc. would bring WFB back to its glory days. That hasn't really happened.
Online has the memory of a squirrel on coke, always chasing the latest shiny thing. Talking about the current thing doesn't mean it's the best, just the newest and most recent.
JohnHwangDD wrote: A particularly vocal contingent claimed that better product, better rules, etc. would bring WFB back to its glory days. That hasn't really happened.
Online has the memory of a squirrel on coke, always chasing the latest shiny thing. Talking about the current thing doesn't mean it's the best, just the newest and most recent.
On the flip side, "new" doesn't automatically mean "bad" and nostalgia can seriously taint objectivity.
Grey Templar sums it up nicely. 8th edition is a solid rules set and is a ton of fun to play. I started in 6th Ed. but have played 40k since Rogue Trader and have always watched from the sidelines...
My observations and anecdotal thoughts on the cause for the demise of Fantasy...
1) Price hikes and cost of entry. New model box releases having fewer models than previous versions, yet costing quite a bit more.
2) The slow and steady withdrawl of organized play and 'outrider' support for leagues and tournaments. Not to mention dropping multiple Games Days in the US down to just one....where it's now more of a 'Buy an overpriced ticket to get crammed into a warehouse with a bunch of other fanboys so you can queue up and buy stuff from ForgeWorld and the like.'
3) Changing the meta to favor large (50+) blocks of infantry. This, coupled with the steady rise in price per model (see #1 above), made the cost of entry even more ridiculous.
4) I would say the external balance between armies (see Daemons, etc) in late 7th edition caused many people to walk away and not look back. I know I quit playing for a long time until the launch of 8th ed.
5) And...this is a big one that GW still fails to see as a problem, and most fanboys discount almost entirely...There are lots of other interesting games to play out there now. GW isnt the untouchable giant they were in the late 90s-early 2000s. Warmachine/Hordes, Malifaux, even Mantic games are offering cheaper alternatives that can be as fun - or even more fun - than the '2nd mortgage on my house' investment that Warhammer Fantasy has become.
Fango wrote: My observations and anecdotal thoughts on the cause for the demise of Fantasy...
[SNIP!]
Similar to Fango, I started playing in 6E, but am more of a 40k player (started in 2E). I generally agree:
1. Cost of entry is high if you're not playing starter boxes - add-on boxes are quite expensive.
2. Shift from included campaigns (Border Princes) and scenarios to ever-larger tournament-style battles to be run by the tournament scene narrowed appeal.
3. Push for hordes is awful, too expensive.
4. 7E balance was off; I was thinking to join 'em and even bought the DoC Army Book, but ultimately decided against spending more on playing something I didn't really want to play.
5. The new hotness (Kickstarter, for me) has obliterated my GW spend to basically nothing. The KS product I'm (finally) supposed to receive this year (Zombicide 3 wave 2, Super Dungeon Explore : Forgotten King, Journey : Wrath of Demons, and Kingdom Death : Monster) is going to give tremendous replay. And it's not like I don't already have both Warmachine and Malifaux at home.
Thing is, if GW actually does what they say, my (Grimdark) Dogs of War should fit perfectly. I might even be inspired to finish some of the "dark" WiP stuff (Dragon, not-Giant, not-Ogres, not-Pegasus, etc.) that I had put aside. Hmm...
No I equate someone gloating and casting disparaging remarks on the concerns others have regarding their time and monetary investment as similarly egregious. As you correctly point put, at least with the case of home or vehicle loss you have the potential for recompense through insurance. My point was/is, the hee-hawing and so forth could be kept to a minimum if someone is anything other than a troll.
Well, but buying toys isn't an investment, it's consumption, and the expectation of viewing it as "investment" is leading to a grossly false sense of entitlement, which is very evidently demonstrated by a fallacious comparison with houses or similar assets.
You're right, I'm not entitled to enjoy something that I bought from GW. What was I thinking? All that time and the literally thousands of dollars (enough to buy a car for example) are just me showing my over-inflated sense of entitlement. I should bow down and worship at the feet of GW and thank them for the opportunity to give them money for a product that I'll no longer be able to use.
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Ozymandias wrote: We're getting a little off-topic, but I have to back Grey Templar. I've been playing since 4th edition and from a purely rules and army book perspective, 8th edition far outshines any earlier edition. I'm not going to go into the specifics because basically these arguments boil down to personal choice and "That's, just like, your opinion, man."
I've enjoyed 8th. The magic phase could get a little ridiculous but all in all it was a fun ruleset and I've been playing since 3rd or 4th, somewhere in there.
As much as the internet wants to argue otherwise, no company owes them anything just because they bought something (warranty contracts and return policies excluded). You bought a product that interested you at that time. It doesn't mean that purchase is some kind of automatic contract to never change things in the future.
Fantasy was a walking corpse. I'm just hoping whatever comes out of this after the dust settles is a leaner, better game that doesn't keep new players at arm's length.
JohnHwangDD wrote: 1. Cost of entry is high if you're not playing starter boxes - add-on boxes are quite expensive.
And GW went the extra step of halving the model count of the boxes while increasing the price. Many Orc players were tickled pink when that happened.
2. Shift from included campaigns (Border Princes) and scenarios to ever-larger tournament-style battles to be run by the tournament scene narrowed appeal.
Actually, my experience is that GW run tournaments helped keep WHFB alive longer that it otherwise would have been.
3. Push for hordes is awful, too expensive.
Horde and Steadfast were good rules for the game but while veteran players could absorb the costs of buying more troops, most newer players couldn't. Vets couldn't buy new armies, however, and people new to the hobby went to 40k because the price of entry to WHFB was way to high by then.
5. The new hotness (Kickstarter, for me) has obliterated my GW spend to basically nothing.
Lots of vets wound up changing their spending habits like this.
And it's not like I don't already have both Warmachine and Malifaux at home.
GW basically gave away market share even if they won't ever admit it (even to themselves).
As for this new edition, I'm taking a wait and see attitude.
Breotan wrote: As for this new edition, I'm taking a wait and see attitude.
Same. I have some Beastmen and some Chaos Warriors but I haven't been interested in trying to spend enough to play at the level you need to be at for 8th to work smoothly. So maybe the new edition will bring me some reason to dig stuff out to play, or I'll look at using them for 40k conversions or something.
ClockworkZion wrote: As much as the internet wants to argue otherwise, no company owes them anything just because they bought something (warranty contracts and return policies excluded). You bought a product that interested you at that time. It doesn't mean that purchase is some kind of automatic contract to never change things in the future.
Fantasy was a walking corpse. I'm just hoping whatever comes out of this after the dust settles is a leaner, better game that doesn't keep new players at arm's length.
Except it isn't going to be is it?
It's going to be a further descent into "put your 'collection' on the table and make rar and twang noises while chucking some dice around, forging a narrative."
Given GW's recent behaviour, what is more likely - a genuine attempt to reinvent the game into something exciting for the vets and attractive to new players, or doubling down on the Unbound nonsense from 40K because they think removing barriers to playing models somehow makes people spend more cash to buy all the things?
Here's some free Kings Of War rules, I don't play either game, but I feel compelled to at least let people know that there can be life for their armies as they know them after the new edition..
JohnHwangDD wrote: A particularly vocal contingent claimed that better product, better rules, etc. would bring WFB back to its glory days. That hasn't really happened.
Online has the memory of a squirrel on coke, always chasing the latest shiny thing. Talking about the current thing doesn't mean it's the best, just the newest and most recent.
You can't really blame the vocal contingent for gw not releasing better rules, though.
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ClockworkZion wrote: As much as the internet wants to argue otherwise, no company owes them anything just because they bought something (warranty contracts and return policies excluded). You bought a product that interested you at that time. It doesn't mean that purchase is some kind of automatic contract to never change things in the future.
Fantasy was a walking corpse. I'm just hoping whatever comes out of this after the dust settles is a leaner, better game that doesn't keep new players at arm's length.
It works both ways though, the customers don't owe the company anything, either. If the company keeps putting out stuff best removed with a shovel, it's their responsibility when the customers start walking away.
We have no proof either way and I refuse to reject a game I haven't even seen yet.
Azreal13 wrote: It's going to be a further descent into "put your 'collection' on the table and make rar and twang noises while chucking some dice around, forging a narrative."
That's your cynicism talking, not actual evidence of what 9th will actually roll out as.
Azreal13 wrote: Given GW's recent behaviour, what is more likely - a genuine attempt to reinvent the game into something exciting for the vets and attractive to new players, or doubling down on the Unbound nonsense from 40K because they think removing barriers to playing models somehow makes people spend more cash to buy all the things?
Unbound is a major boon to new players and vets who want thematic armies they can't do normally (like Deathwatch, at least until the rules get released). So yeah, it could be a thing, but we have no evidence of that (it'd also make Fantasy work on lower points levels without needing to drop the restrictions we normally see).
As for the "no restriction" stuff we did see for Archaon, I'm curious to know more about those pages because I have a hunch that they're limited to the End Times campaign setting, or they're for a WFB Apoc method of playing. Or both.
Nobody running narrative games needs permission to play with Force Org charts, it just legitimised WAAC attitude players desire to throw all the broken stuff on the table at once.
But I'm not really surprised that despite rumours suggesting they were going down this route, and actual photographic evidence that they're heading that way, that it's me being cynical.
ClockworkZion wrote: As much as the internet wants to argue otherwise, no company owes them anything just because they bought something (warranty contracts and return policies excluded). You bought a product that interested you at that time. It doesn't mean that purchase is some kind of automatic contract to never change things in the future.
Fantasy was a walking corpse. I'm just hoping whatever comes out of this after the dust settles is a leaner, better game that doesn't keep new players at arm's length.
It works both ways though, the customers don't owe the company anything, either. If the company keeps putting out stuff best removed with a shovel, it's their responsibility when the customers start walking away.
I actually agree. And people have been walking away, and that's why GW is changing it's approach to WFB. The thing is that I just get tired of seeing arguments that basically boil down to "I don't like it so they shouldn't do it" before they've even seen the actual full product and ignoring the people who do like it.
GW can't please everyone, especially in a thing like this, and I don't think they should try to. I'd much rather see them work to produce a quality product (so you know, something good that can be gotten into without dropping $600+ on a starter army) and it draw in the people that are interested by it than pander to a fan base. The best stuff I've seen has always come out that way.
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Azreal13 wrote: Nobody running narrative games needs permission to play with Force Org charts, it just legitimised WAAC attitude players desire to throw all the broken stuff on the table at once.
Considering 6th edition had a "homebrew is legal" section it's not like Unbound made it any worse.
And most of the WAAC combos I've heard of fit into standard FOCs an allies.
Azreal13 wrote: But I'm not really surprised that despite rumours suggesting they were going down this route, and actual photographic evidence that they're heading that way, that it's me being cynical.
There have been no rumors of 9th having Unbound AFAIK. Ditto for leaks of 9th edition. And we're not even sure of the full rules for skipping FOC in regards to the End Times books because people can't be bothered to show the whole page.
So your "evidence" is suspect.
Azreal13 wrote: Couldn't possibly be you being naive could it?
I'm not jumping to conclusions is all. I want to see the final product before I make claims. Is that too hard to understand?
ClockworkZion wrote: As for the "no restriction" stuff we did see for Archaon, I'm curious to know more about those pages because I have a hunch that they're limited to the End Times campaign setting, or they're for a WFB Apoc method of playing. Or both.
From the way it is worded it seems pretty across the board to me.
This section updates the rules for for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer, overriding any previous rules. All armies now use these rules for choosing an army.
ClockworkZion wrote: As for the "no restriction" stuff we did see for Archaon, I'm curious to know more about those pages because I have a hunch that they're limited to the End Times campaign setting, or they're for a WFB Apoc method of playing. Or both.
From the way it is worded it seems pretty across the board to me.
This section updates the rules for for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer, overriding any previous rules. All armies now use these rules for choosing an army.
Again, full context means everything. Forgive me for wanting to know the full scope of things before I choose sides on anything.
ClockworkZion wrote: As for the "no restriction" stuff we did see for Archaon, I'm curious to know more about those pages because I have a hunch that they're limited to the End Times campaign setting, or they're for a WFB Apoc method of playing. Or both.
From the way it is worded it seems pretty across the board to me.
This section updates the rules for for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer, overriding any previous rules. All armies now use these rules for choosing an army.
Again, full context means everything. Forgive me for wanting to know the full scope of things before I choose sides on anything.
I understand the policy and agree with it, but I don't see how that can be taken in any other way than what is written, that all armies now use those rules and any rule set written for army construction is now invalid.
After all, it simply states, "games of Warhammer".
Not Warhammer: End Times, not Warhammer: Sort-of-Apocalypse, just Warhammer.
I agree with wanting to know all the facts first, but at this point gw also has a long and pretty consistent track record, enough that speculation can be done with a decent enough degree of accuracy.
Torga_DW wrote: I agree with wanting to know all the facts first, but at this point gw also has a long and pretty consistent track record, enough that speculation can be done with a decent enough degree of accuracy.
I'd agree if the speculation was ever more than "everything is going to suck forever".
Everything is going downhill, and has been for quite some time. I'd like to have a "everything is getting better" attitude, the problem is it isn't. I would say everything is going to suck until kirby is taken off the board and management revisited or until gw folds, whichever comes first. Then will be the time to re-evaluate.
ClockworkZion wrote: As for the "no restriction" stuff we did see for Archaon, I'm curious to know more about those pages because I have a hunch that they're limited to the End Times campaign setting, or they're for a WFB Apoc method of playing. Or both.
From the way it is worded it seems pretty across the board to me.
This section updates the rules for for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer, overriding any previous rules. All armies now use these rules for choosing an army.
Again, full context means everything. Forgive me for wanting to know the full scope of things before I choose sides on anything.
Now I no doubt will not be the first to point out you would argue with yourself if left in an empty room and even then about whether the sky was or was not blue. But ruling out time travel I think you may have lost track about what your actually trolling about, as in the other thread about the terrible new Khorne models you actually posted a picture of the full new end times army building rules confirming what you in the above post you say you want someone else to confirm, only that was an hour before you made the above post.
Kanluwen wrote: WHFB's "abysmal sales" and the tale it tells is usually a tale of "Why would people bother getting into the game if all they hear is criticism from their local community?".
Or it's just an unpopular game where the changes between editions were not wanted.
But no, no, continue to blame the community ('cause that's always a good idea) as you recharge your shields to defend GW.
What's next Kan? "Warhammer players are dead! Warhammer players don't have to be your audience!"
ClockworkZion wrote: As for the "no restriction" stuff we did see for Archaon, I'm curious to know more about those pages because I have a hunch that they're limited to the End Times campaign setting, or they're for a WFB Apoc method of playing. Or both.
From the way it is worded it seems pretty across the board to me.
This section updates the rules for for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer, overriding any previous rules. All armies now use these rules for choosing an army.
Again, full context means everything. Forgive me for wanting to know the full scope of things before I choose sides on anything.
Now I no doubt will not be the first to point out you would argue with yourself if left in an empty room and even then about whether the sky was or was not blue. But ruling out time travel I think you may have lost track about what your actually trolling about, as in the other thread about the terrible new Khorne models you actually posted a picture of the full new end times army building rules confirming what you in the above post you say you want someone else to confirm, only that was an hour before you made the above post.
I'm not trolling, I honestly want to see the full set of rules before I really make any opinions about them.
Unbound didn't ruin 40K at all. It's not used in tournaments, and I've ever seen one pickup game include an Unbound list. Users around the globe report the same on these very forums. It's basically an option that's there, that only a fraction of players ever utilize aside from joking around. Can we get someone in here to state how Unbound ruined their whole Warhammer 40K -hobby, and describe a detailed report as to how it happened ( aside from "I read about it, I didn't like it so I quit before anyone even played Unbound against me. I played once a year before, now I won't!" and other silly gak ) on a practical, concretical level ?
Shouldn't be any different for WHFB. It will be a way to build an army that will be rarely used and not approved for tournament play. There should be a new way to build armies come 9th according to the rumours. People who want to play Unbound are a fraction of the ones who don't. It will get passed off as a goofy option that is not taken seriously in FB, just like in 40K. It is also stated in the rumours that the End Times -books will be valid for 9th, but not supported. If I'm not mistaken, the "unbound FB" was included in the End Times books.
And, there is no evidence regarding 9th being all about the narrative. There is no evidence to it being bad or good, which are subjective terms to beginwith. There are only assumptions and supposed rumours ( that pertain to the structure and mechanics of the game. ) In essence, we will wait and see. Some folk are always demanding evidence about pretty much everything. But now it's okay to skip that part? Paradoxical.
Or jump to conclusions without any factual knowledge, if that's someones slice of cake to go about things. I think ClockworkZion's approach is by far the best. Wait, and see.
RunicFIN wrote: Unbound didn't ruin 40K at all. It's not used in tournaments, and I've ever seen one pickup game include an Unbound list. Users around the globe report the same on these very forums. It's basically an option that's there, that only a fraction of players ever utilize aside from joking around. Can we get someone in here to state how Unbound ruined their whole Warhammer 40K -hobby, and describe a detailed report as to how it happened ( aside from "I read about it, I didn't like it so I quit before anyone even played Unbound against me. I played once a year before, now I won't!" and other silly gak ) on a practical, concretical level ?
Shouldn't be any different for WHFB. It will be a way to build an army that will be rarely used and not approved for tournament play. There should be a new way to build armies come 9th according to the rumours. People who want to play Unbound are a fraction of the ones who don't. It will get passed off as a goofy option that is not taken seriously in FB, just like in 40K. It is also stated in the rumours that the End Times -books will be valid for 9th, but not supported. If I'm not mistaken, the "unbound FB" was included in the End Times books.
And, there is no evidence regarding 9th being all about the narrative. There is no evidence to it being bad or good, which are subjective terms to beginwith. There are only assumptions and supposed rumours ( that pertain to the structure and mechanics of the game. ) In essence, we will wait and see. Some folk are always demanding evidence about pretty much everything. But now it's okay to skip that part? Paradoxical.
Or jump to conclusions without any factual knowledge, if that's someones slice of cake to go about things. I think ClockworkZion's approach is by far the best. Wait, and see.
Yes, of course, why didn't we see it before. Mods, to the Modmobile! Shut down this entirely superfluous forum at once; discussing things before they come out is evidently pointless, as the only thing we could possibly post is apparently "I do not know for certain, so I must wait and see. Good day sir, I said good day."
Predictions for those that haven't been been paying attention to recent GW releases.
1. IP is King. Re-label, re-brand and if you can't do that, out it goes. Expect most of the generic fantasy stuff that GW can't Trademark to go.
2. Cost-savings is Queen. Copy n' Paste in CAD saves money, expect less variation in new kits. Expect more big kits as they provide cost savings and bigger profits. Expect a bigger emphasis on rules releases, and less on minis - rules are cheaper to produce.
3. Remove barriers to buying minis. GW doesn't want to stop you buying that fifth Bloodthirster because of a FOC. Unbound, allies, detachments and formations. Apocalypse WFB.
Yodhrin wrote: Yes, of course, why didn't we see it before. Mods, to the Modmobile! Shut down this entirely superfluous forum at once; discussing things before they come out is evidently pointless, as the only thing we could possibly post is apparently "I do not know for certain, so I must wait and see. Good day sir, I said good day."
Or we can share ideas and consider possibilities without running off to ring the Doom Bell until we have a reason to do so.
That aside, I really don't think that we're going to be losing much from the game, just see some reorganization (maybe some reboxing) for the most part, assuming the combined army rumors are true. For all we know we'll just be picking up on a world similar to the Old World, but organized differently where a similar, but not identical story is playing out. This could allow GW to shuffle around motivations between different factions, redraw the map, place different factions against each other, and even change some of the history.
Or we could see the End Times become the current setting with that "millenia to play out" thing becoming a part of the setting and the world being an even crappier place than it was.
There is just a lot of possible outcomes going forward, and I know I'm only scratching the surface on what could be done with the setting.
Kanluwen wrote: WHFB's "abysmal sales" and the tale it tells is usually a tale of "Why would people bother getting into the game if all they hear is criticism from their local community?".
Or it's just an unpopular game where the changes between editions were not wanted.
There was nothing wrong with 7th's core rules. All complaints were directed at unbalanced and obscene army books, Games Workshops answer was to take away things that require skill and let the person who wrote the most egregious of the army books write the new rules and it showed. I gave up when random charges, measure at all times, no guessing ranges, and making your now random charge irrelevant killed the game I had played since 1990. You can't even find a game here as players have moved on to better games.
And now the new edition of Warhammer - Warhammer: Age of Suckening! (WAS.)
Seriously - this kind of puts the nail in the game as far as everybody in my group is concerned - though the latest edition did a good job of building the coffin.
This would have been a very good time to do some, you know... Market Research.
Find out why people are dropping a game over burdened with badly written rules and over priced, over the top miniatures.
I still like older editions of Fantasy more than 40K - I like fantasy mass combat.
But this... seems more like an excuse to not bother fixing the problems - and focus on the models that make GW the most money.
I can't say that WAS has killed my interest in GW - it has been years since the last time I bought anything from them (ironically, that purchase was for Warhammer Fantasy....)
Changing everything does not mean that GW is fixing the problem - it means that they are panicking, fixing the problem would mean opening discussion - not surprising everyone with the end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it.
Trying to fix the problem would be looking at what they are doing wrong. Not just doing it louder.
Therion wrote: And again, all of that already happened in 40K, and people are playing it happily at tournaments nevertheless.
And sales continue to dwindle as evidenced by their annual and semi-annual reports.
Some of it may be their doing, some may be effects of things out of GW's control, like the current economy, and tabletop gaming just becoming smaller and smaller overall worldwide.
TheAuldGrump wrote: Changing everything does not mean that GW is fixing the problem - it means that they are panicking, fixing the problem would mean opening discussion - not surprising everyone with the end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it.
Changing things (we really don't even know if it's everything yet or they're going to put 9th in the End Times 11th hour or what's going on) doesn't automatically mean that they aren't trying to fix things either.
We have no solid evidence of what 9th will bring and if it can or will do anything to fix the game. I look forward to see what it is just to see what is really going to happen and I've got my fingers crossed it keeps what works in 8th, changes what doesn't (like how it keeps new players out of the game). Maybe it'll tick some people off, maybe it won't. I don't care if people get mad as long as it works. If it's an improvement then I can live with whatever it's doing differently.
RunicFIN wrote: Unbound didn't ruin 40K at all. It's not used in tournaments, and I've ever seen one pickup game include an Unbound list. Users around the globe report the same on these very forums. It's basically an option that's there, that only a fraction of players ever utilize aside from joking around. Can we get someone in here to state how Unbound ruined their whole Warhammer 40K -hobby, and describe a detailed report as to how it happened ( aside from "I read about it, I didn't like it so I quit before anyone even played Unbound against me. I played once a year before, now I won't!" and other silly gak ) on a practical, concretical level ?
Shouldn't be any different for WHFB. It will be a way to build an army that will be rarely used and not approved for tournament play. There should be a new way to build armies come 9th according to the rumours. People who want to play Unbound are a fraction of the ones who don't. It will get passed off as a goofy option that is not taken seriously in FB, just like in 40K. It is also stated in the rumours that the End Times -books will be valid for 9th, but not supported. If I'm not mistaken, the "unbound FB" was included in the End Times books.
And, there is no evidence regarding 9th being all about the narrative. There is no evidence to it being bad or good, which are subjective terms to beginwith. There are only assumptions and supposed rumours ( that pertain to the structure and mechanics of the game. ) In essence, we will wait and see. Some folk are always demanding evidence about pretty much everything. But now it's okay to skip that part? Paradoxical.
Or jump to conclusions without any factual knowledge, if that's someones slice of cake to go about things. I think ClockworkZion's approach is by far the best. Wait, and see.
Actually, unbound does have an effect. It gave GW a ready excuse for crap rules. Don't like your army restrictions? Use unbound.
I tried to explain to my sales rep why some of the new ork releases were sucking sales-wise. Pointed out that all the new Models (Gorkanaut, flashgitz, big gunz) were heavy support, competing with battlewagons, looted wagons, and now looters. Many players already had too many HS choices. His answer was that it didn't matter, convince them to play unbound......
Therion wrote: And again, all of that already happened in 40K, and people are playing it happily at tournaments nevertheless.
And sales continue to dwindle as evidenced by their annual and semi-annual reports.
Some of it may be their doing, some may be effects of things out of GW's control, like the current economy, and tabletop gaming just becoming smaller and smaller overall worldwide.
Except there is no evidence to suggest that the hobby as a whole is getting smaller, and all the evidence there is suggests it is getting larger, and rather rapidly.
Therion wrote: And again, all of that already happened in 40K, and people are playing it happily at tournaments nevertheless.
And sales continue to dwindle as evidenced by their annual and semi-annual reports.
Some of it may be their doing, some may be effects of things out of GW's control, like the current economy, and tabletop gaming just becoming smaller and smaller overall worldwide.
Apart from literally every single item of evidence we have whether it be anecdotal or actual fact, suggests the exact contrary.
GW's figures began to tank just as the economy was beginning to recover in their key markets, and remained healthy throughout the worst of the financial crisis, and every time we get any news about any of the larger competitors, or amount spent on KS or any of a number of other sources, it is always unfailingly positive.
Changing things (we really don't even know if it's everything yet or they're going to put 9th in the End Times 11th hour or what's going on) doesn't automatically mean that they aren't trying to fix things either.
The direction of travel is quite clear. Maybe I'm completely wrong and 9th is an excellent game, in at least 1 universe it will be after all. I can't see me restarting my Empire army (made entirely of Perry Miniatures) though.
A fitting quote from the dearly departed Sir Terry:
"If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life."
Changing things (we really don't even know if it's everything yet or they're going to put 9th in the End Times 11th hour or what's going on) doesn't automatically mean that they aren't trying to fix things either.
The direction of travel is quite clear. Maybe I'm completely wrong and 9th is an excellent game, in at least 1 universe it will be after all. I can't see me restarting my Empire army (made entirely of Perry Miniatures) though.
Cynicism or realism?
Realism is the stance I'm taking. One where you don't draw conclusions based on gut feelings or your concerns but actual information.
Sure I am concerned at the new edition will suck, but I'm not applying that to my expectations without evidence,
You're dismissing people's concerns on the basis that "we don't know anything yet" irrespective of how well founded their concerns may be, or how well supported by solid rumour or confirmed fact.
What you're peddling isn't realism, it's idealism.
There is nothing "realistic" to worry about until we actually know what 9E looks like. There is a lot of projecting going on here, and a lot of pessimist assumption that it will be "bad" without any real-world proof behind it.
I was a little pissy at first, but now I'm just waiting and seeing. In reality, I hardly ever gonna get to play anyway since I never seem to have time anymore. As long as they don't make my Lizardmen and Goblin armies totally useless I'll find a way to adapt, or else just make up house rules for em...
JohnHwangDD wrote: There is nothing "realistic" to worry about until we actually know what 9E looks like. There is a lot of projecting going on here, and a lot of pessimist assumption that it will be "bad" without any real-world proof behind it.
Other than rumours of what it will be like from solid sources dovetailing very neatly with actual photographs of the content of the next End ?Times book?
It seems perfectly realistic to me to be harbouring serious concerns, not proclaiming "everything might be ok, we just don't know!"
JohnHwangDD wrote: There is nothing "realistic" to worry about until we actually know what 9E looks like. There is a lot of projecting going on here, and a lot of pessimist assumption that it will be "bad" without any real-world proof behind it.
Other than rumours of what it will be like from solid sources dovetailing very neatly with actual photographs of the content of the next End ?Times book?
It seems perfectly realistic to me to be harbouring serious concerns, not proclaiming "everything might be ok, we just don't know!"
After all, it's not every day an entire game universe gets wiped out and completely re-built!
JohnHwangDD wrote: There is nothing "realistic" to worry about until we actually know what 9E looks like. There is a lot of projecting going on here, and a lot of pessimist assumption that it will be "bad" without any real-world proof behind it.
Other than rumours of what it will be like from solid sources dovetailing very neatly with actual photographs of the content of the next End ?Times book?
It seems perfectly realistic to me to be harbouring serious concerns, not proclaiming "everything might be ok, we just don't know!"
After all, it's not every day an entire game universe gets wiped out and completely re-built!
JohnHwangDD wrote: There is nothing "realistic" to worry about until we actually know what 9E looks like. There is a lot of projecting going on here, and a lot of pessimist assumption that it will be "bad" without any real-world proof behind it.
Other than rumours of what it will be like from solid sources dovetailing very neatly with actual photographs of the content of the next End ?Times book?
It seems perfectly realistic to me to be harbouring serious concerns, not proclaiming "everything might be ok, we just don't know!"
The only solid rumors we have about 9th is from Harry and he's only said that the starter is Chaos vs Humans. We don't even have a solid release date yet.
Well, I guess one's definition of "solid" can vary, but I'd call Darnok and Harry both endorsing the idea of the Bubbleverse and the End Times Archaon leak pretty damn solid.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm not changing my post, but for any third parties reading, CwZ edited his original.
Azreal13 wrote: Well, I guess one's definition of "solid" can vary, but I'd call Darnok and Harry both endorsing the idea of the Bubbleverse and the End Times Archaon leak pretty damn solid.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm not changing my post, but for any third parties reading, CwZ edited his original.
I don't recall seeing Harry endorsing Bubblehammer.
And my edit was for clarity of my point. There isn't a lot out there and Bubblehammer fell apart with what we've seem so far anyways.
No, your edit was to drop Harry's name into your post, which then made me name checking him somewhat redundant.
Anyway, it seems that you've cast yourself in your own head as some sort of voice of reason, but just so you know, reason generally occupies some sort of middle ground, and all you appear to do is disagree with anyone expressing misgivings.
Whether you intend to or not, you're coming across less as reasonable and more as white knighting.
Azreal13 wrote: No, your edit was to drop Harry's name into your post, which then made me name checking him somewhat redundant.
Anyway, it seems that you've cast yourself in your own head as some sort of voice of reason, but just so you know, reason generally occupies some sort of middle ground, and all you appear to do is disagree with anyone expressing misgivings.
Whether you intend to or not, you're coming across less as reasonable and more as white knighting.
I named Harry because I was pointing to him as the only source I knew of who was a solid source who had something to say about 9th.
And I haven't seen anyone who was bouncing off the walls getting overexcited for 9th to dissgree with so forgive me for taking the middle ground and only seeing one extreme to disagree with. I've named my misgivings with WFB, and have said I do have concerns that this whole thing will turn out poorly and just finish strangling WFB, but until I know where 9th is actually going I'm not assuming that it to actually be the case.
So yeah, I'm being rational and taking the middle ground instead of letting myself get caught up in my own emotions on this right now. Just because you don't agree with my stance doesn't make me irrational, or a white knight or any other claim you want to throw. Until the book is in my hands all that exist are rumors and as far as I'm concerned all rumots have enough chance of being wrong that we should hold none of it as gospel just yet.
Azreal13 wrote: I simply explained how your posts were coming across to me, in my perception.
Unsurprisingly, you disagree.
You made claims about me that I don't find to be based in fact. Of course I disagreed with you. That doesn't validate your earlier claims, nor does it prove anything
As far as I know we have one rumor for 9th with any possible weight behind it: the starter. If anyone has some morebI'm interested to hear them.
Azreal13 wrote: I simply explained how your posts were coming across to me, in my perception.
Unsurprisingly, you disagree.
You made claims about me that I don't find to be based in fact. Of course I disagreed with you. That doesn't validate your earlier claims, nor does it prove anything
As far as I know we have one rumor for 9th with any possible weight behind it: the starter. If anyone has some morebI'm interested to hear them.
I was stating my perception, I'm not the only one who has stated similar, I don't need facts to back up an opinion on the reaction what you're writing illicits in me.
When you ignore my statements of apprehension on what could be done poorly about the new edition to focus only the statements you don't agree with it shows that you don't care about facts just fine. You didn't have to point it out to me.
You can have any opinion you like, but neither I, nor anyone else, is obligated to agree with an opinion.
JohnHwangDD wrote: There is nothing "realistic" to worry about until we actually know what 9E looks like. There is a lot of projecting going on here, and a lot of pessimist assumption that it will be "bad" without any real-world proof behind it.
I have Lizardmen and Brettonian armies please advise me on why I should be Polly Annaish?
JohnHwangDD wrote: There is nothing "realistic" to worry about until we actually know what 9E looks like. There is a lot of projecting going on here, and a lot of pessimist assumption that it will be "bad" without any real-world proof behind it.
I have Lizardmen and Brettonian armies please advise me on why I should be Polly Annaish?
Good for you. You should wait and see like a rational person.
I have (had) Dogs of War. There is nowhere to go but up.
ClockworkZion wrote: When you ignore my statements of apprehension on what could be done poorly about the new edition to focus only the statements you don't agree with it shows that you don't care about facts just fine. You didn't have to point it out to me.
You can have any opinion you like, but neither I, nor anyone else, is obligated to agree with an opinion.
Azreal13 wrote: No, but you're not obligated to state your disagreement all the flaming time either, learn to walk away.
Azreal13 wrote: No, your edit was to drop Harry's name into your post, which then made me name checking him somewhat redundant.
Anyway, it seems that you've cast yourself in your own head as some sort of voice of reason, but just so you know, reason generally occupies some sort of middle ground, and all you appear to do is disagree with anyone expressing misgivings.
Whether you intend to or not, you're coming across less as reasonable and more as white knighting.
I named Harry because I was pointing to him as the only source I knew of who was a solid source who had something to say about 9th.
And I haven't seen anyone who was bouncing off the walls getting overexcited for 9th to dissgree with so forgive me for taking the middle ground and only seeing one extreme to disagree with. I've named my misgivings with WFB, and have said I do have concerns that this whole thing will turn out poorly and just finish strangling WFB, but until I know where 9th is actually going I'm not assuming that it to actually be the case.
So yeah, I'm being rational and taking the middle ground instead of letting myself get caught up in my own emotions on this right now. Just because you don't agree with my stance doesn't make me irrational, or a white knight or any other claim you want to throw. Until the book is in my hands all that exist are rumors and as far as I'm concerned all rumots have enough chance of being wrong that we should hold none of it as gospel just yet.
Don't waste your time argumenting with Azreal, he can't help himself. Best we let him be certain about the things he is certain about, and preserve the image of everyone else being wrong and their logic faulty, now that we're talking about bubbles.
ClockworkZion wrote: And I haven't seen anyone who was bouncing off the walls getting overexcited for 9th to dissgree with so forgive me for taking the middle ground and only seeing one extreme to disagree with. I've named my misgivings with WFB, and have said I do have concerns that this whole thing will turn out poorly and just finish strangling WFB, but until I know where 9th is actually going I'm not assuming that it to actually be the case.
So yeah, I'm being rational and taking the middle ground instead of letting myself get caught up in my own emotions on this right now. Just because you don't agree with my stance doesn't make me irrational, or a white knight or any other claim you want to throw. Until the book is in my hands all that exist are rumors and as far as I'm concerned all rumots have enough chance of being wrong that we should hold none of it as gospel just yet.
Well put. I'd say everyone should do the same. Some choose ( and I do mean choose ) not to, but anyway.
The only solid rumors we have about 9th is from Harry and he's only said that the starter is Chaos vs Humans. We don't even have a solid release date yet.
Note that he said Chaos vs. "Humans".
Presumably he meant Bubble-/Fantasy-/Dimensional/Sig-Marines?
The only solid rumors we have about 9th is from Harry and he's only said that the starter is Chaos vs Humans. We don't even have a solid release date yet.
Note that he said Chaos vs. "Humans".
Presumably he meant Bubble-/Fantasy-/Dimensional/Sig-Marines?
No real evidence what he meant. The info he has may have been complete too.
I do know he was making some comments last night about imagining said models in "mark 0 armor with power swords" but me that just sounds like a knight.
I feel conflicted. The idea of a more skirmish war hammer fantasy with smaller games my attention span can better handle. But... I really liked the back story to fantasy. =/
Its amusing to see how most of us here are passionate enough to express concerns about a game that hypothetically is dying or dead and the company that is economically invested in it keeps perpetuating the total silence. Guess the ET and the destruction of WFB fluff is yet another blind measure from an unchangeable dinosaur. Missed chance from GW to actually reinvent themselves. To think that in the EU in many places WFB was not long ago a lot more popular than 40k and now is a only a smelly annoying fart. Incredible how such a popular game from a multimillion company can reach such critical state and the company that let it happen is... unchanged.
Bizarre is also the fact that some here seem to be more prone to criticize peoples concerns and opinions rather than the topic itself.
I have a open mind regarding the new edition as much as I am open minded into playing other games, if GW wants to see my investment into the new edition they better get their Shat together and come up with something better than Bubbleverse... you can only reboot fluff one to many times before people do not care for it anymore. Same for your armies... add more ranks, take ranks off, more magic, more heroes, change bases etc. Armies take years to built and paint, some respect to who does it is due, even if you claim GW does not owe us anything ( which is partially true ) no sustainable relationship can be maintained if one of the parts shows no respect for the other.
Also the specificity of what GW sells you makes ALL the difference... I mean GW wants to sell itself as THE hobby experience... and then at the same time it moves away from any relevant interaction with their clients.
Someone talked about being realistic about the new edition... maybe if you add GW tracking record as part of that equation you would not be inclined to be so optimistic
I love and buy some GW minis but I can keep a distance and actually realize that GW in the present day needs to change... WFB is in a poor position and I can see 40k following it. Then what? Theres no more games to keep them alive.
Someone hinted wargaming was getting smaller... Been at Salute and year by year you see it bigger and better, its only the biggest in the UK. Also if you do a little search online you will find out that the offers and options today available for wargaming grown to an incredible number. The only thing shrinking is the convergence into only one system or company... that is changing.
JohnHwangDD wrote: There is nothing "realistic" to worry about until we actually know what 9E looks like. There is a lot of projecting going on here, and a lot of pessimist assumption that it will be "bad" without any real-world proof behind it.
I don't really care if 9th is the greatest rules system ever known, the world and background have been destroyed. Fundamentally, the game world is either gone, or they're doing a Dallas-dream-esque retcon of End Times. Maybe something in between where the world is recreated to their one shining being's idea of what the world was, and we have a small number of armies, built from the cuisinarted remains of the older armies that had long standing flavor and history, all jumbled up. All of which, quite frankly, stink.
And WFB will still suffer from high cost of entry and, in the case of some kits, ridiculously inflated prices. And I expect GW to fix the hugely inconsistent cost of kits (for example, Witch Elves at $60 for 10, Executioners at $50 for 10, etc, while the likes of dreadspears are $35 for 10, Chaos Warriors are $35 for 12, and Tomb Kings skeletons are $35 for 16) by raising the cost of the "cheaper" kits to parity with the kits priced at the new normal. It wouldn't even be the first time they did a price hike that drastic, look at the Dire Avengers, who went to a box with half as many for nearly the same cost.
ClockworkZion wrote: If GW was playing the part of the unchanging dinosaur, we wouldn't have gotten the End Times.
And considering the End Times is very much not fitting with their old track record I'd say that when it comes to 9th it's possible that won't either.
Did you actually read my post? Or actually just eager to defend something and mixmatch some words to prove something?
Do you see GW interacting with the community and clarifying the deal with the nuke in WFB? The way GW moves is exactly the same... No interaction, just changing the products to milk them and relying that people will buy things just because GW is the hobby ( in the meanwhile increasing prices each month). They are releasing things faster and faster to try to catch up. What you call ET to be the big change I say its a logical consequence of increased rate of recycling. Recycling and spamming same things will eventually only lead you to a dead end and then - only a nuke will "solve" it. Believe me it will not because if your incapable of turning things around in a optimal way for all parts involved and your only creative thinking relies on "destroy all" then I fear for any kind of long therm continuity in WFB.
What changed? They killed everything because they are not capable of changing and they think that this magically will revive WFB just cause they are the best thing after sliced bread. This is not a fundamental core change of behavior but rather the sacrifice of once a pretty strong reliable game fluff.
I'm bold enough to say that the peoples concerns over the years have proven to be spot on. You simply DO NOT nuke 30 years of fluff and armies building! If you have to do it its because you have been outoftouch with reality and let your game die... Guess what GW has unfortunately not changed a bit in fact thinking about it WFB is as in poor shape as many of the " doomsayers" predicted. Just mind blowing ridiculous incompetence can explain this.
How many ET books again? In what time gap between eachother? Prices of all them? Just another formula spammed to death I'm afraid. Oh well they released the Glotkin so its a good result for me I guess.
Mate in the future can we please just try to understand and respect the other side before jabbing some words? I would thank you for that because your relentless posting of the same thing in this thread is a bit too incisive.
ClockworkZion wrote: If GW was playing the part of the unchanging dinosaur, we wouldn't have gotten the End Times.
And considering the End Times is very much not fitting with their old track record I'd say that when it comes to 9th it's possible that won't either.
Did you actually read my post? Or actually just eager to defend something and mixmatch some words to prove something?
Do you see GW interacting with the community and clarifying the deal with the nuke in WFB? The way GW moves is exactly the same... No interaction, just changing the products to milk them and relying that people will buy things just because GW is the hobby ( in the meanwhile increasing prices each month). They are releasing things faster and faster to try to catch up. What you call ET to be the big change I say its a logical consequence of increased rate of recycling. Recycling and spamming same things will eventually only lead you to a dead end and then - only a nuke will "solve" it. Believe me it will not because if your incapable of turning things around in a optimal way for all parts involved and your only creative thinking relies on "destroy all" then I fear for any kind of long therm continuity in WFB.
What changed? They killed everything because they are not capable of changing and they think that this magically will revive WFB just cause they are the best thing after sliced bread. This is not a fundamental core change of behavior but rather the sacrifice of once a pretty strong reliable game fluff.
I'm bold enough to say that the peoples concerns over the years have proven to be spot on. You simply DO NOT nuke 30 years of fluff and armies building! If you have to do it its because you have been outoftouch with reality and let your game die... Guess what GW has unfortunately not changed a bit in fact thinking about it WFB is as in poor shape as many of the " doomsayers" predicted. Just mind blowing ridiculous incompetence can explain this.
How many ET books again? In what time gap between eachother? Prices of all them? Just another formula spammed to death I'm afraid. Oh well they released the Glotkin so its a good result for me I guess.
Mate in the future can we please just try to understand and respect the other side before jabbing some words? I would thank you for that because your relentless posting of the same thing in this thread is a bit too incisive.
I read but didn't agree with everything you said. Yes, the communication aspect hasn't gotten better, but I'd say the fact that they're trying something moves them out of pondering along like a clueless dinosaur walking deeper into a tar pit to just being deaf to the consumer base.
They are trying to change course, and even if they are aware of what we want right now there isn't much they can turn around if this proves to be ultimately bad.
But I've said it before and I'll say it again, the company needs more than veterans to keep the game afloat and if it proves to bring more people in the long run then losing a few vets who don't like the changes is fine.
We'll have to wait and see if the gambit pays off for them of course, but just because you don't agree with it doesn't automatically make it bad for the company (and vice versa). Time will tell if it pays off or not, but writing it off as a possible solution to the failing WHFB system pre-maturely strikes me as getting caught up in your emotional ties to the game.
NAVARRO wrote: Do you see GW interacting with the community and clarifying the deal with the nuke in WFB? The way GW moves is exactly the same... No interaction, just changing the products to milk them and relying that people will buy things just because GW is the hobby ( in the meanwhile increasing prices each month). They are releasing things faster and faster to try to catch up. What you call ET to be the big change I say its a logical consequence of increased rate of recycling. Recycling and spamming same things will eventually only lead you to a dead end and then - only a nuke will "solve" it. Believe me it will not because if your incapable of turning things around in a optimal way for all parts involved and your only creative thinking relies on "destroy all" then I fear for any kind of long therm continuity in WFB.
What changed? They killed everything because they are not capable of changing and they think that this magically will revive WFB just cause they are the best thing after sliced bread. This is not a fundamental core change of behavior but rather the sacrifice of once a pretty strong reliable game fluff.
I'm bold enough to say that the peoples concerns over the years have proven to be spot on. You simply DO NOT nuke 30 years of fluff and armies building! If you have to do it its because you have been outoftouch with reality and let your game die... Guess what GW has unfortunately not changed a bit in fact thinking about it WFB is as in poor shape as many of the " doomsayers" predicted. Just mind blowing ridiculous incompetence can explain this.
How many ET books again? In what time gap between eachother? Prices of all them? Just another formula spammed to death I'm afraid. Oh well they released the Glotkin so its a good result for me I guess.
Judging by the horrendous "team player" lawyer ad over in Discussions, GW haven't learned gak.
While literally scrapping your universe and rehashing your entire back-story seems a drastic measure, there are financial reasons why GW has to do it. I've seen it written many times that the entire fantasy line was making GW less profit than the Space Marine range of 40K. Think about that, you own a company that produces plastic models, and to design/create plastic molds, books, accessories, package and ship your product costs you the same amount of resources, but your customers continue to heavily favor the 40K range. This means that the alternating releases of fantasy/40K stuff are alternating periods of vastly different profit made by the company. I ask you, what sane company would continue to go down this road? This necessitates change, and the way I see it there are 4 options to change:
1) Scrap the entire range, put all fantasy kits on wholesale prices, cut your loses and focus heavily on 40K releases. That is the fastest way to lose your customers, and a sure-fire way to waste all the resources invested into the new fantasy models which were coming out quite regularly even before the end times. I think we should rejoice that they are not simply going in this direction.
2) Leave the fantasy range in perpetual 8th edition and only produce enough models to stock the direct order warehouse. This would allow players to continue gaming as they did before but would be a slow and painful death to the game as it is no improvement over its current stat, which is no good.
3) Release a new 9th edition with all new codicies for every army available, make balance changes, reduce the number of units needed to play in order to lower the entry price point, and hope that all these sensible changes make the game more-appealing to your target audience. I think this is what most people are hoping for, but this is a huge gamble for GW. Imagine how much it must cost to produce all new books, rule sets for all 15 armies. Not to mention this strategy would further bloat the range as they would need to make more models, more new units, or create more armies in order to sell their shiny new models. As far as they are aware, new models were not selling well before, so adding even more options and having to keep a much bigger warehouse stock is a huge gamble in the uncertain future of the franchise. I definitely believe that WHFB has been bloated to an unsustainable size for years, with too many army choices which saw updates way too infrequently.This is why I don't believe GW are going in this direction.
4) Scrap the current lore/meta/armies and condense it all to the best selling/most recent models of every range. Create 4-6 well balanced armies which use a variety of units from the old ranges, while also needing to fill their ranks with brand new shiny models. Make the game more like your successful skirmish range as that has been shown to sell well, and even if the fantasy players are unhappy with it, if a big enough number of 40K players cross over to play both systems it makes it financially viable. Introduce this change in a series of "end times" books and releases which are a publicity stunt to soften the blow of the transition between old and new fantasy warhammer. Continue to produce new models to create more relevant, modern fantasy esthetic to lure new/younger people into the hobby. If this all fails, at least you sold a whole bunch of models and took a chance at it. This to me seems to make the most sense, it's an entirely practical decision from a company which is facing more competition than ever in the industry and an ever diminishing customer base. While I like many of you am not a fan of it, I can easily see why they are doing it.
It seems to me in order to survive as a system and to make profit by appealing to both veterans and new players, the new fantsy game must, must have a way to be played which allows for potentiation, so that it is just as viable at 200points as it is at 2000. If a kid can play games with his $30 box of troops choices intead of having to invest an ungodly $200-$500 before a game is even viable then they would have done a good job.
Hive City Dweller wrote: While literally scrapping your universe and rehashing your entire back-story seems a drastic measure, there are financial reasons why GW has to do it. I've seen it written many times that the entire fantasy line was making GW less profit than the Space Marine range of 40K. Think about that, you own a company that produces plastic models, and to design/create plastic molds, books, accessories, package and ship your product costs you the same amount of resources, but your customers continue to heavily favor the 40K range.
Whenever I see this written, I always have to wonder exactly what the "Space Marine range" is quantified as.
Just the Tactical Marines, Scouts, Devastators, and Terminators?
Or does it also include the vehicles, of which 4 kits(Predators, Rhinos, Land Raiders, and Vindicators) are basically shared between Loyalist and Traitor Marines? And that's not getting into the stuff which is shared amongst all of the various Loyalist books to begin with(which would expand the vehicle pool larger).
It also makes me wonder exactly what the 40k to Fantasy ratio was at the best of times, not simply post 8th WHFB.
3) Release a new 9th edition with all new codicies for every army available, make balance changes, reduce the number of units needed to play in order to lower the entry price point, and hope that all these sensible changes make the game more-appealing to your target audience. I think this is what most people are hoping for, but this is a huge gamble for GW. Imagine how much it must cost to produce all new books, rule sets for all 15 armies. Not to mention this strategy would further bloat the range as they would need to make more models, more new units, or create more armies in order to sell their shiny new models. As far as they are aware, new models were not selling well before, so adding even more options and having to keep a much bigger warehouse stock is a huge gamble in the uncertain future of the franchise. I definitely believe that WHFB has been bloated to an unsustainable size for years, with too many army choices which saw updates way too infrequently.This is why I don't believe GW are going in this direction.
The key reason models don't seem to be selling well is because people aren't enjoying the game anymore and have stopped playing.
Making 9th an edition a fun edition is the only way forward to save the game. This needn't have been the massive roll of the dice it appears we are in for, which is a much greater gamble than doing what you outline above.
The fact is, the only reason any new edition is a gamble is because of the utterly ridiculous way GW conducts itself. Establishing some lines of communication with the players would allow them to make informed decisions on what was popular, what was not, and what, going forward, would please the most/displease the least amount of people.
WHFB isn't unique in being bloated, 40K is too, and both systems will benefit from a good pruning, but the issue is, with no communication with the people actually consuming their product, GW have no idea what is dead wood and what is new growth.
3) Release a new 9th edition with all new codicies for every army available, make balance changes, reduce the number of units needed to play in order to lower the entry price point, and hope that all these sensible changes make the game more-appealing to your target audience. I think this is what most people are hoping for, but this is a huge gamble for GW. Imagine how much it must cost to produce all new books, rule sets for all 15 armies. Not to mention this strategy would further bloat the range as they would need to make more models, more new units, or create more armies in order to sell their shiny new models. As far as they are aware, new models were not selling well before, so adding even more options and having to keep a much bigger warehouse stock is a huge gamble in the uncertain future of the franchise. I definitely believe that WHFB has been bloated to an unsustainable size for years, with too many army choices which saw updates way too infrequently.This is why I don't believe GW are going in this direction.
The key reason models don't seem to be selling well is because people aren't enjoying the game anymore and have stopped playing.
Making 9th an edition a fun edition is the only way forward to save the game. This needn't have been the massive roll of the dice it appears we are in for, which is a much greater gamble than doing what you outline above.
The fact is, the only reason any new edition is a gamble is because of the utterly ridiculous way GW conducts itself. Establishing some lines of communication with the players would allow them to make informed decisions on what was popular, what was not, and what, going forward, would please the most/displease the least amount of people.
WHFB isn't unique in being bloated, 40K is too, and both systems will benefit from a good pruning, but the issue is, with no communication with the people actually consuming their product, GW have no idea what is dead wood and what is new growth.
over Chaos itself the way they're rolling recently, or get royally burned for dealing with Chaos in the first place.
), I'm anxious to see what they will bring to rejuvenate the setting.
