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PhantomViper wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
Oh look, the ad hominem attacks have started. It is always such a pleasure trying to discuss anything reasonably with you guys.

Phantom, it's not like they're making huge sweeping changes to a game that costs tons of money to get into or anything. I mean, you act like they're changing the basic structure of the game, doing away with units, changing the way armies look and play and ... oh.

Yeah, I'm just bitching really. GW only took a setting that I've loved for 20 years and that made me spend thousands of Euros in miniatures, games, books, etc and basically threw it all in the trash (and in one of the most ham fisted ways that I've ever seen). How could I possibly be even a little bit upset about something like that?!

They didn't make you do anything, get over yourself.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Vets complaining about Fantasy changing has been generating more buzz for it than the Vets were on their own before.

Before what exactly?

Before the End Times started. I thought that was pretty clear.

Before the end times started there weren't already any amount of veterans left to speak of. The vast majority left the game when 8th edition was released.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Platuan4th wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
Oh look, the ad hominem attacks have started. It is always such a pleasure trying to discuss anything reasonably with you guys.

Phantom, it's not like they're making huge sweeping changes to a game that costs tons of money to get into or anything. I mean, you act like they're changing the basic structure of the game, doing away with units, changing the way armies look and play and ... oh.

Yeah, I'm just bitching really. GW only took a setting that I've loved for 20 years and that made me spend thousands of Euros in miniatures, games, books, etc and basically threw it all in the trash (and in one of the most ham fisted ways that I've ever seen). How could I possibly be even a little bit upset about something like that?!

They didn't make you do anything, get over yourself.

Get over myself? Really?

And I didn't say that anyone made me do anything, I said that my love for the setting made me.

Maybe before you start throwing insults around you could work on your reading comprehension.

Maybe so, but it is quite frustrating to find out that all of the miniatures, books, etc you've bought might become totally redundant in the next edition. Especially when dealing with a game like WFB that requires lots and lots of miniatures to start with.

 Malika2 wrote:
Especially when dealing with a game like WFB that requires lots and lots of miniatures to start with.

Which allegedly is one of the things they want to change.

WHFB won't end just because they might be changing things this year. You can still play 8th/End Times with the models you've got. Play the version you're happiest with. No-one's forcing you to play the next rule set but yourself.

Y'know, it surprises me how everyone seems to be forgetting the whole bit from Khaine.

How Araloth is apparently going to be playing out the role of Asuryan(the Creator), and Lileath went out of her way to establish some way to protect him at the core of the Oak of Ages?

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Malika2 wrote:
Especially when dealing with a game like WFB that requires lots and lots of miniatures to start with.

Which allegedly is one of the things they want to change.

If GW keeps prices high then it won't matter if the model count comes down if there's no monetary savings to go with it. If it costs hundreds of dollars to field an army that's still a barrier to entry regardless of how many models you get for your money.

PhantomViper wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
Oh look, the ad hominem attacks have started. It is always such a pleasure trying to discuss anything reasonably with you guys.

Phantom, it's not like they're making huge sweeping changes to a game that costs tons of money to get into or anything. I mean, you act like they're changing the basic structure of the game, doing away with units, changing the way armies look and play and ... oh.

Yeah, I'm just bitching really. GW only took a setting that I've loved for 20 years and that made me spend thousands of Euros in miniatures, games, books, etc and basically threw it all in the trash (and in one of the most ham fisted ways that I've ever seen). How could I possibly be even a little bit upset about something like that?!

So an entire setting that's building up to an end times actually cashing in on that is "ham fisted"?

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Charles Rampant wrote:
Is anyone able (and willing) to quickly summarise the end state of the Old World? Do we have that information yet? I assume that it is bad news since, you know, End Times.

There you go. Spoilers. Obviously.

Spoiler:

PhantomViper wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Vets complaining about Fantasy changing has been generating more buzz for it than the Vets were on their own before.

Before what exactly?

Before the End Times started. I thought that was pretty clear.

Before the end times started there weren't already any amount of veterans left to speak of. The vast majority left the game when 8th edition was released.

That was my point. There was no buzz before, this has generated a lot.

Anybody going to update the OP?

The thread's pretty useless as it's two months old at this point.

 Malika2 wrote:
Maybe so, but it is quite frustrating to find out that all of the miniatures, books, etc you've bought might become totally redundant in the next edition.

Exactly. It is frustrating.

But this is GW we're talking about. Their total lack of regard for their customers is not a new thing, particularly for those identifying as veterans.

Discussing gaming under GW is like talking to a friend who's in an abusive relationship that they refuse to leave. There is so often talk of how their partner used to be and how they could be if they just changed, yet at the end of the day your friend is still choosing to make themselves party to abuse. It is the same here.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

So an entire setting that's building up to an end times actually cashing in on that is "ham fisted"?

I disagree that the setting was building up to any type of catastrophic event before the End Times campaign, and the way that the End Times was portrayed sure is hamfisted: High Elves and Dark Elves becoming brosefs? Skaven shooting a moon from the sky?! Lizardmen cities becoming spaceships?!

For me at least, all of that is pretty cringe worthy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

That was my point. There was no buzz before, this has generated a lot.

This generated allot of bad publicity and even more ill will towards GW.

That whole "even bad publicity is good publicity" only really works when we are talking about trashy reality TV shows.

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:


But this is GW we're talking about. Their total lack of regard for their customers is not a new thing, particularly for those identifying as veterans.

Discussing gaming under GW is like talking to a friend who's in an abusive relationship that they refuse to leave. There is so often talk of how their partner used to be and how they could be if they just changed, yet at the end of the day your friend is still choosing to make themselves party to abuse. It is the same here.

Well, it's not just GW.

Just two weeks ago, we had Anima Tactics go out. http://cipher-studios.com/2015/02/cipher-studios-announces-anima-tactics-discontinued/

Dust is almost certainly on the way out, if recent quarrels are anything to go by.

Games end. That's just the way it is.

I honestly still don't see how people think that they are Ending Warhammer Fantasy.

I mean...come now...the spoiled page ends with it obviously continuing.

Seems like there are many who want Fantasy to end, but, it's not.

PhantomViper wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

That was my point. There was no buzz before, this has generated a lot.

This generated allot of bad publicity and even more ill will towards GW.

That whole "even bad publicity is good publicity" only really works when we are talking about trashy reality TV shows.

The only negativity I've really seen has come from the die hard vets. And locally even those have started to be won over by the End Times in general and are feeling some hype for the possibilities an updated setting can bring.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

That was my point. There was no buzz before, this has generated a lot.

This generated allot of bad publicity and even more ill will towards GW.

That whole "even bad publicity is good publicity" only really works when we are talking about trashy reality TV shows.

The only negativity I've really seen has come from the die hard vets. And locally even those have started to be won over by the End Times in general and are feeling some hype for the possibilities an updated setting can bring.

It's really only good news. There has been a lot of hype around the End times, and there are only the Vets that are screaming about it. I am a vet, but I like change, especially when it means they will continue the game, which is what they are doing.

 Malika2 wrote:
Maybe so, but it is quite frustrating to find out that all of the miniatures, books, etc you've bought might become totally redundant in the next edition. Especially when dealing with a game like WFB that requires lots and lots of miniatures to start with.

Well they kind of do since, you know no one plays the old editions...
You can't go get pick up games with old rule books... you have to know people who want to play, and if you don't, you're kind of screwed.
It does suck that an army I worked so hard on will become utterly worthless, I mean people barely play 8th ed round where I am, and no one is gonna play this travesty of a game.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

It's iconic, but with it hemorraging people just a rules change isn't enough anymore.

It would be enough. Fantasy was popular before 8th, despite some deep issues but 8th killed it stone dead and its easy to see why.

The reasons why WHFB was popular still exist, at least their ghosts do, and it would be possible to revive the game using nothing but updated rules.

By updated I mean a complete root and branch overhaul. None of the ultimately counterproductive fiddling that GW has contented itself with but hiring some competent games designers to rebuild the rules completely from the ground up with a clear vision of what the game should be. That, and only that, is what would get me interested in the game again.

Obliterating the fluff, which is exactly what is occurring with the 'end times' will categorically not save the game and I strongly suspect that it will hasten its demise.

Personally I started seriously wargaming with 4th ed (and I stared buying toy soldiers a few years before that) but the absolute trainwreck of 8th and the steadily decreasing quality of the game as a whole has now left me so indifferent to the fate of WHFB that I gave away my armies. After over 2 decades I don't like to see it dying to this shoddy horror though.

Hopefully someone competent will pick up the license when GW finally dies and rolls back all this insanity.

Rules changes aren't enough 6-7 years after the edition kicked out any hopes of new players.

You need a lot more to generate interest than that.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

It's iconic, but with it hemorraging people just a rules change isn't enough anymore.

It would be enough. Fantasy was popular before 8th, despite some deep issues but 8th killed it stone dead and its easy to see why.

No, 8th edition is actually the best ruleset they've written when combined with the best balanced army books they've written. Fantasy was dying a slow death as GW continually raised their prices.

6th and 7th editionw ere unbalanced piles of junk as far as rules were concerned. Plus there was total army book power level discrepancy. Magic was also ridiculous. Sure, individual spells were less powerful, but some armies were capable of generating 20+ power dice while others could barely get 7 or 8.

8th edition magic is the weak link in the ruleset, but overall the ruleset is superior. Blocks of infantry are strong anchors, but are countered by massive output of attacks and/or magic. Maneuverability skill is still the deciding factor in games.

 Avrik_Shasla wrote:
I honestly still don't see how people think that they are Ending Warhammer Fantasy.

I mean...come now...the spoiled page ends with it obviously continuing.

Seems like there are many who want Fantasy to end, but, it's not.

Yeah, it says that the universe continues, but how? In what form? They wrote the ultimate ambiguous ending. "Everything was destroyed, except for one guy, who gained the power to change everything, and so he changed everything. The End."

With that ending, 9th edition could be literally anything they want. If they want to rewind all of the changes they just made, they can. If they want to throw out all of the background and models and start completely fresh, they can. If they want to can it altogether, this would be the opportune moment.

The point is that GW has left all of their options open with this ending, and given their recent efforts for WHFB and 40K, many of us have little faith that they can pull it off.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Rules changes aren't enough 6-7 years after the edition kicked out any hopes of new players.

You need a lot more to generate interest than that.

So, you're saying that in the hopes of drawing in new players, they're going to alienate the older players who have invested so much time/money/energy into the established background and currently existing armies. I get that you're excited, yay for you, but some of us are a little put out about the current rumors and how the end result will affect our ability to enjoy a product in which we've invested heavily. You can be mature and accept that our opinions are equally valid to your own excitement or you can childishly gloat about how our thousands of dollars are going down the drain. Give me a call next time you have an auto-accident, a home damaged by a storm or some like event that results in you losing the enjoyment of several thousand dollars of your hard-earned money so I can come over to your house and do this:

GW tried relying on old players alone to float Fantasy and it failed. Don't get salty with me because they finally know how important fresh blood in the game is.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

It's iconic, but with it hemorraging people just a rules change isn't enough anymore.

It would be enough. Fantasy was popular before 8th, despite some deep issues but 8th killed it stone dead and its easy to see why.

No, 8th edition is actually the best ruleset they've written when combined with the best balanced army books they've written. Fantasy was dying a slow death as GW continually raised their prices.

6th and 7th editionw ere unbalanced piles of junk as far as rules were concerned. Plus there was total army book power level discrepancy. Magic was also ridiculous. Sure, individual spells were less powerful, but some armies were capable of generating 20+ power dice while others could barely get 7 or 8.

8th edition magic is the weak link in the ruleset, but overall the ruleset is superior. Blocks of infantry are strong anchors, but are countered by massive output of attacks and/or magic. Maneuverability skill is still the deciding factor in games.

Nope, you are wrong. Incredibly, hugely, humongously wrong.

I can't even begin to imagine what type of mental gymnastics you have to make to argue that the edition that caused the collapse of the game, both in the number of players and in sales is somehow the "best edition ever".

Or that the most balanced editions of the game are actually the worse... because reasons...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
GW tried relying on old players alone to float Fantasy and it failed. Don't get salty with me because they finally know how important fresh blood in the game is.

For the hundredth time, they didn't try to rely on old players to float Fantasy because all the old players left when 8th edition was released. And this new "bubbleverse" edition will fail even harder because not only does it seem to share the same failings that 8th edition had (and a whole lot of crap inherited from 6th edition 40k), they now destroyed the strongest remaining trump card that they had: the setting.

I'd say 6th was better then 7th in terms of balance, but that's just my two cents

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
I'd say 6th was better then 7th in terms of balance, but that's just my two cents

6th and 7th were pretty much the same, balance-wise. The only thing that gave 7th such a bad rep in terms of balance was the Demon Army Book.

6th was fantastic. Options were pretty close to endless, and had some actual fluffy choices you could make. Khorne units: extra dispel dice. Makes total sense, yes please. Tzeentch extra casting dice. Also a big yes. Frenzied models could be led around by the nose if you were a competent general. I could go on for pages, but I'm at work. So it's short and sweet.

Im an old school veteran of GW who has survived since the beginning. Many edition reloads, but this is by far the most dramatic! Rules and Fluffwise!!!

WFB for me has always been the big armies going toe to toe and having skirmish style as a secondary. Seems the roles will just be reversed now, following the coattails of

some other games which run this style. War machine for example.

I know a lot of people not buying new armies though, as no one is sure if that army will be around for the next edition. WFB is big in my area but the destruction of the known

WFB world leaves everyone wondering and confused on what the end product will be. From my point of view it looks like were going the Warhmachine route with the small

skirmisher forces and probably have alternative rules to run the BIG BATTLES. Maybe Mega Battles will be it large forces of old going toe to toe. Grand Tournaments with

the massive hosts?


Now one more thing for this grumbler is I am a bit perturbed on the mashing of forces. Each of the armies had their own flavor and play style which is what I also really enjoyed

about WFB. I hope that don't go to far and lose the identity of the various races.


End of Times is almost at hand... I just hope there is a Dwarf Hold to go back to... somewhere

The Magic system in the last few editions put me off WFB for good, although I liked a lot of what they did in 8th - premeasuring, charging, step up, etc.

The new "not Magic" system in 40k has also put me off 7th Ed sadly.

Now really just buy stuff for the fluff and pretty models so the rules element is of little interest unless to steers back towards the games I like.