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Yeah. Chaos Gods even get bored with their victory and move onto another planet. Warhammer is such an afterthought now even the Chaos Gods don't care about it...

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 Allot wrote:
Something just struck me. This year a big change is coming for WHFB. Also there is a Total War: Warhammer more or less unofficially confirmed. Also hinted lately is that news about this is to come this year. Maybe these 2 things are linked? Also will the game be set in the old or new setting?

GW linking non LOTR model releases with the release of an external thing that might drive people to their store?

Or GW telling Creative Assembly to release according to their schedual.

 Allot wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 Allot wrote:
Something just struck me. This year a big change is coming for WHFB. Also there is a Total War: Warhammer more or less unofficially confirmed. Also hinted lately is that news about this is to come this year. Maybe these 2 things are linked? Also will the game be set in the old or new setting?

GW linking non LOTR model releases with the release of an external thing that might drive people to their store?

Or GW telling Creative Assembly to release according to their schedual.

CA is the property of SEGA, i.e. GW doesn't get to tell CA anything. Also GW has never done any tie in with any of their more successful licenses like the Dawn of War series, it is highly doubtful that they would start now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah. Chaos Gods even get bored with their victory and move onto another planet. Warhammer is such an afterthought now even the Chaos Gods don't care about it...

So it really is true? The Old World is really dead and Bubbleverse is a go?

PhantomViper wrote:
So it really is true? The Old World is really dead ...

Yes.

PhantomViper wrote:
So it really is true? ... Bubbleverse is a go?

Still in rumour-status.

The Old World as we know it is dead. We'll see if it is slain completely in the future.

Is anyone able (and willing) to quickly summarise the end state of the Old World? Do we have that information yet? I assume that it is bad news since, you know, End Times.

 Charles Rampant wrote:
Is anyone able (and willing) to quickly summarise the end state of the Old World? Do we have that information yet? I assume that it is bad news since, you know, End Times.

There you go. Spoilers. Obviously.

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Charles Rampant wrote:
Is anyone able (and willing) to quickly summarise the end state of the Old World? Do we have that information yet? I assume that it is bad news since, you know, End Times.

There you go. Spoilers. Obviously.

Spoiler:

Honestly, I believe the figure at the end of everything was Sigmar. There will be a reset, but I am pretty sure that most of what was will still remain, as in trying to save as much as he can from a previous time or manifest things anew.

It's not unlike GW to have an over arching story and be like, "Meh, it didn't happen."

shade1313 wrote:
So whatever comes, the armies and world that first got me into the GW games is gone, and with it, probably, my enthusiasm to play WFB.

Considering pretty much no one was buying, at this point it's no loss. Especially considering vets spend the least on the game.

I look forward to seeing as what shakes out of this before I'm drawing any judgement on the game.

 Avrik_Shasla wrote:
Honestly, I believe the figure at the end of everything was Sigmar. There will be a reset, but I am pretty sure that most of what was will still remain, as in trying to save as much as he can from a previous time or manifest things anew.

It's not unlike GW to have an over arching story and be like, "Meh, it didn't happen."

Well, GW can go with one of 3 ways:

If they go with the "it was all a dream" cop out, then that is a pretty big feth you to all the people that have spent how many hundreds of euros / dolars / kwanzas to buy all the End Time books and miniatures.

If the Old World really died and all the rumours about the bubble verse and completely revamped game are true, then that is a big feth you to all the people that already have armies that suddenly become unsupported, not to mention to those of us old timers that got into the hobby because of the current WHFB setting.

If GW goes with the "this is what will eventually happen" and freezes the fluff in the 30 seconds to midnight moment, then that severely stunts any future options for setting development.

None of the above is even remotely desirable and GW really should have known better by now that they can't write themselves into a corner like this, because no matter where they turn to, it will piss off a significant amount of their fanbase and they will loose people because of it.

shade1313 wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Charles Rampant wrote:
Is anyone able (and willing) to quickly summarise the end state of the Old World? Do we have that information yet? I assume that it is bad news since, you know, End Times.

There you go. Spoilers. Obviously.

Spoiler:

Bleah.

So whatever comes, the armies and world that first got me into the GW games is gone, and with it, probably, my enthusiasm to play WFB.

PhantomViper wrote:

If the Old World really died and all the rumours about the bubble verse and completely revamped game are true, then that is a big feth you to all the people that already have armies that suddenly become unsupported, not to mention to those of us old timers that got into the hobby because of the current WHFB setting.

Well, this wasn't a feasible option anyhow, at least recently (partly, even mostly due to GW's mistakes, pricing, etc.. I know).

Either way, it was "shut down WFB in the BFG-style"... i.e. just take it off the website, or shut down WFB with a bit of a bang, e.g. do a fancy "End Times" campaign that says "thanks for 30 years.. have a good one."

Whatever comes after, for whatever financial/business/accounting-reasons, would've happened anyways. The 3 people still invested with WFB-armies would've gotten the short stick anyhow. At least somebody, somewhere did find the management-goodwill to send WFB off with a more-or-less epic 5-book campaign.




I wish Necromunda, Bloodbowl, etc.. would've gotten a cool (if smaller) "it's-over-and-thanks-for-all-the-fish"-campaign send-off.

PhantomViper wrote:
If the Old World really died and all the rumours about the bubble verse and completely revamped game are true, then that is a big feth you to all the people that already have armies that suddenly become unsupported, not to mention to those of us old timers that got into the hobby because of the current WHFB setting.

That's an overreaction based on a sunk cost fallacy. Vets don't spend much money and weren't keeping the game afloat. When it comes down to "the game is failing, we need to kill it or change it" at least they're trying something.

PhantomViper wrote:
None of the above is even remotely desirable and GW really should have known better by now that they can't write themselves into a corner like this, because no matter where they turn to, it will piss off a significant amount of their fanbase and they will loose people because of it.

And what part of their fanbase is actually spending money on Fantasy? Fantasy hasn't been in the top 10 war games for over two years now. It's burning money right now. It frankly needs to be changed before it gets dropped completely.

So the GW answer is to make sure that they can kill off the line?

Oi!

The Auld Grump

I concur with CZ's responses.

PhantomViper - what would you have them do?!

My mate was new to WHFB, and has built and painted two armies in about 18 months. 3k+ each of Dwarfs and Night Goblins. Incredibly well painted. B*stard. He's never painted before... Anyways - 99% of it came from eBay, a few Direct Only NG pieces aside.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
So the GW answer is to make sure that they can kill off the line?

Oi!

The Auld Grump

They could already kill the line now. They're trying to save the line.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah. Chaos Gods even get bored with their victory and move onto another planet. Warhammer is such an afterthought now even the Chaos Gods don't care about it...

Hmm interesting stuff - the Chaos Gods getting bored makes sense and in keeping with bleak reality - in fact I have had Chaos worshipers in games and stories working against final victory as then the game is finished................

I have actually enjoyed the writing and imagery, but very sad if all that was is gone but interested to see what happens next................

 ClockworkZion wrote:
It frankly needs to be changed before it gets dropped completely.

It needs to be completely rewritten from a rules perspective. Obliterating the fluff (and doubtlessly covering everything thats left in skulls and a 12 year old's version of GRIM DARK) is foolish to the point of madness.

Warhammer is one of the most iconic wargames in the world, it deserves so much more than this.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
If the Old World really died and all the rumours about the bubble verse and completely revamped game are true, then that is a big feth you to all the people that already have armies that suddenly become unsupported, not to mention to those of us old timers that got into the hobby because of the current WHFB setting.

That's an overreaction based on a sunk cost fallacy. Vets don't spend much money and weren't keeping the game afloat. When it comes down to "the game is failing, we need to kill it or change it" at least they're trying something.

PhantomViper wrote:
None of the above is even remotely desirable and GW really should have known better by now that they can't write themselves into a corner like this, because no matter where they turn to, it will piss off a significant amount of their fanbase and they will loose people because of it.

And what part of their fanbase is actually spending money on Fantasy? Fantasy hasn't been in the top 10 war games for over two years now. It's burning money right now. It frankly needs to be changed before it gets dropped completely.

Oh, I agree completely with you. Fantasy needed to change or it would die completely.

But GW could have changed it back to the game that it was in 6th and 7th editions, the most popular editions of the game and those where it experienced the biggest growth.

Instead, changing it like they are doing now only ensures that the even more once loyal customers will arbour even more ill will towards the company.

And vets aren't the biggest spenders in a product, that is a fact, but in a product that depends on social interaction and word of mouth to expand, veterans play a vital role. They are the recruiting tools that miniature wargames depend on. They are the core around which gaming groups are formed. That was what killed Fantasy: 8th edition alienated the vast majority of veteran players and without those veteran players, no new blood was being recruited which led to the sorry state in which Fantasy is now.

It's actually quite interesting, Fantasy down at my FLGS is larger now than it ever has been, out classing now tournaments of Warmachine and Hordes, where Privateer press's system has dominated where I live. It would be sad to see so much love and interest be poured into a five volume set, getting people interested with such gorgeous models and rules, getting new players interested and then drop it like it was the first born child of Games-workshop that they just didn't want to work with anymore.

If anything, I do hope to see this turn into something more than a drop off. It doesn't feel like it honestly, Games-workshop usually tends to let players know their future plans with little snippets, much like, "But it is also the beginning", of course that sounds hopeful.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
It frankly needs to be changed before it gets dropped completely.

It needs to be completely rewritten from a rules perspective. Obliterating the fluff (and doubtlessly covering everything thats left in skulls and a 12 year old's version of GRIM DARK) is foolish to the point of madness.

Warhammer is one of the most iconic wargames in the world, it deserves so much more than this.

It's iconic, but with it hemorraging people just a rules change isn't enough anymore. A rules change would have worked 3 years ago, but at this point it needs more than that.

And I don't blame the apprehension, but you're putting the cart before the horse when you judge the new setting before it's even out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PhantomViper wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
If the Old World really died and all the rumours about the bubble verse and completely revamped game are true, then that is a big feth you to all the people that already have armies that suddenly become unsupported, not to mention to those of us old timers that got into the hobby because of the current WHFB setting.

That's an overreaction based on a sunk cost fallacy. Vets don't spend much money and weren't keeping the game afloat. When it comes down to "the game is failing, we need to kill it or change it" at least they're trying something.

PhantomViper wrote:
None of the above is even remotely desirable and GW really should have known better by now that they can't write themselves into a corner like this, because no matter where they turn to, it will piss off a significant amount of their fanbase and they will loose people because of it.

And what part of their fanbase is actually spending money on Fantasy? Fantasy hasn't been in the top 10 war games for over two years now. It's burning money right now. It frankly needs to be changed before it gets dropped completely.

Oh, I agree completely with you. Fantasy needed to change or it would die completely.

But GW could have changed it back to the game that it was in 6th and 7th editions, the most popular editions of the game and those where it experienced the biggest growth.

Instead, changing it like they are doing now only ensures that the even more once loyal customers will arbour even more ill will towards the company.

And vets aren't the biggest spenders in a product, that is a fact, but in a product that depends on social interaction and word of mouth to expand veterans play a vital role. They are the recruiting tools that miniature wargames depend on. They are the core around which gaming groups are formed. That was what killed Fantasy: 8th edition alienated the vast majority of veteran players and without those veteran players, no new blood was being recruited which led to the sorry state in which Fantasy is now.

Vets complaining about Fantasy changing has been generating more buzz for it than the Vets were on their own before.

Then again vets bitch about everything. Because change is bad to anyone who has more than $5 invested into war gaming apparently.

There's a lot of fear in this thread about things we don't know yet. We've only heard rumours.

It seems incredibly unlikely that GW will outright squat whole armies immediately at 9th edition. Alternatively, what does seem likely, and the rumours seem to point to it, is that some armies will cease to be as entities of ongoing support. They will still be playable and they will likely have the option to be used folded into existing or new armies, but they won't see new army books.

If you're a player of one of those armies, there's not much to say other than, "that sucks, yo."

----

What I continue to have a fear for, however, is that GW has not truly realized that the overwhelming reason for fantasy's decline was likely their progressive creep in the scale and therefore cost of the game. I obviously can't provide empirical evidence for this, but anecdotal evidence makes this seem like the reason for the game's drop in popularity. I've also heard some dislike of the randomness of 8th edition.

If 9th edition is simply as expensive as 8th, nothing will have changed.

To be fair though, the kind of change that has been rumored (Which, I don't believe 90% of the buzz) is worth 'bitching' about. I've been playing Warhammer Fantasy since 98' and I've loved it. The fluff, the miniatures, the expanding it's done and the way it's gotten so gloom and doom. I have thousands of points invested into multiple armies (A bit more than $5), and I would be rather upset if Games Workshop were to release a version of the game which told me I only needed a fourth of what I own in each of my armies, or that many armies were being wiped out all together.

Again, those rumors make no sense in a business model and practice...but hey...if GW is that crazy to make 9th so far different than a tried and true 30 year old system, then there is always sticking with 8th edition, which is what I would do in the end.

But, the fall of Fantasy truly is because of GW having the self-fulfilling prophecy. They saw that cash grab that was 40k and invested all their resources and love into it forever, they allowed the IP to be put out and some great games like Dawn of War(the game that got me into 40k). All this push into 40k left Fantasy dangling on the side lines forever and has put it into the situation where it is now. Gripping onto the edge of that cliff with it's pinky finger, waiting for GW to pick it up now, or push it off.

Or Maybe Endtimes was GW leaning down to Fantasy, holding on to it's hands and whispering into it's ear, "Long live the King", and then pushing it off the cliff.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Vets complaining about Fantasy changing has been generating more buzz for it than the Vets were on their own before.

Before what exactly?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Then again vets bitch about everything. Because change is bad to anyone who has more than $5 invested into war gaming apparently.

Oh look, the ad hominem attacks have started. It is always such a pleasure trying to discuss anything reasonably with you guys.

 Avrik_Shasla wrote:


Or Maybe Endtimes was GW leaning down to Fantasy, holding on to it's hands and whispering into it's ear, "Long live the King", and then pushing it off the cliff.

I think End Times was GW's eulogy to the king who had fallen off the cliff a few years ago. More importantly, End Times probably was the "we're sorry, have a bone" to the old timers, instead of simply deleting the Fantasy-tab from their website one morning.

PhantomViper wrote:
Oh look, the ad hominem attacks have started. It is always such a pleasure trying to discuss anything reasonably with you guys.

Phantom, it's not like they're making huge sweeping changes to a game that costs tons of money to get into or anything. I mean, you act like they're changing the basic structure of the game, doing away with units, changing the way armies look and play and ... oh.

PhantomViper wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Vets complaining about Fantasy changing has been generating more buzz for it than the Vets were on their own before.

Before what exactly?

Before the End Times started. I thought that was pretty clear.

PhantomViper wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Then again vets bitch about everything. Because change is bad to anyone who has more than $5 invested into war gaming apparently.

Oh look, the ad hominem attacks have started. It is always such a pleasure trying to discuss anything reasonably with you guys.

Saying people bitch about everything isn't a lie. It's a simple observation from every single rumors thread I've ever seen.

That said I'm going to share something I learned in the military (cleaned up a bit for the swearing): "Everyone ALWAYS complains. It's when the complaining stops that there is something wrong."

And in wargaming when the customer base doesn't have make a noise it's because it isn't there anymore.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
It frankly needs to be changed before it gets dropped completely.

It needs to be completely rewritten from a rules perspective. Obliterating the fluff (and doubtlessly covering everything thats left in skulls and a 12 year old's version of GRIM DARK) is foolish to the point of madness.

Warhammer is one of the most iconic wargames in the world, it deserves so much more than this.

It was one of the most iconic, now it's one of those games that everyone playing other games used to play.

 streamdragon wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
Oh look, the ad hominem attacks have started. It is always such a pleasure trying to discuss anything reasonably with you guys.

Phantom, it's not like they're making huge sweeping changes to a game that costs tons of money to get into or anything. I mean, you act like they're changing the basic structure of the game, doing away with units, changing the way armies look and play and ... oh.

Yeah, I'm just bitching really. GW only took a setting that I've loved for 20 years and that made me spend thousands of Euros in miniatures, games, books, etc and basically threw it all in the trash (and in one of the most ham fisted ways that I've ever seen). How could I possibly be even a little bit upset about something like that?!