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 Breotan wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
...and my new skaven will look nothing like my current skaven.

Hopefully this applies more to the old clanrat/gutter runner/plague monk models and less to the new IoB Clanrats/Stormvermin/Rat Ogres.

I took it to mean more of the whole army style, but if they're just replacing the old monkey rats I'd be happy.

I doubt that's the plan, given that the rumors basically say "your old units are going away".

 streamdragon wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
...and my new skaven will look nothing like my current skaven.

Hopefully this applies more to the old clanrat/gutter runner/plague monk models and less to the new IoB Clanrats/Stormvermin/Rat Ogres.

I took it to mean more of the whole army style, but if they're just replacing the old monkey rats I'd be happy.

I doubt that's the plan, given that the rumors basically say "your old units are going away".

I feel your pain much like Spiders for gobbos are going away rumor... I mean thats the main thing about me collecting gobbos in the first place. I must confess it has not stopped me from painting them. If there is no room for my army in the 9th its annoying but I will just use other rulesets and games to go with them. THing is the idea of a skirmish game to go with WFB is not bad in the paper but its implementation seems to head to a major nuke into the main massbattle game by invalidating huge chunks of your armies and that just sucks big time. Also the more I hear about rules and books etc the more I get the feeling its going to be like the ET book race... Nope my hobby is not to buy tons overpriced rulesets.

The more that GW tries, the less they really give an effort here.

These rumors for the new game are really kinda.... rough.

Not really generating anything but a sense of loss for me. Fantasy was a pretty good game once upon a time.

Oh well, guess we check that Star Wars game out.

 Grot 6 wrote:

Oh well, guess we check that Star Wars game out.

Or Kings of War, Mayhem, Legions of Battle, Armies of Arcana, Fantasy Rules!, etc. etc. etc.

Those rumors seem like half steps to try and placate the old guard while trying to get back into the ever popular skirmish level. But combining it all into one game and taking a wishy-washy stance. Meaning it'll be the same "Mother, May I?" garbage for 40k versus a strong, guided stance of "this is how we play our game."

The "do what you want" stuff in games works great for cooperative settings, but player v. player games really need a hard and fast set of rules. Something GW seems to be nearly incapable of at this point.

I hope it's all just a big, elaborate troll job by someone out there who is bored...but I fear not.

Bad time for it, I don't have nearly enough cash on hand to pick up all the stuff I wanted to add, over time, to my armies, so I can play 8th with other disgruntled WFB players on into the future.

Hard to believe a lot of this - while at the same time hard to not believe a lot of this.

I wonder how honest GW will be when they are talking about this new edition of WFB ].

Ultimately it won't matter, but I'm not sure how well a real strong Blowing Sunshine Campaign is going to go over!

I fear all players of the traditional fantasy armies are going to have to get used to what 40K Sisters players have suffered for many many years

They've got an army, it's sort of officially recognised, there are a few (really old) minis to buy, but nothing new shows up (except inaccurate rumours) for longer than most people stick in the game

Y'know I never played fantasy but I'll miss the empire and Bret plastics, great conversion fodder in there.

 Alpharius wrote:
Hard to believe a lot of this - while at the same time hard to not believe a lot of this.

I wonder how honest GW will be when they are talking about this new edition of WFB ].

Ultimately it won't matter, but I'm not sure how well a real strong Blowing Sunshine Campaign is going to go over!

I suspect they'll be as honest as they were in 7th edition 40k when telling us in WD that the changes were in response to player feedback so that we could play with our whole collections... because... you know... everyone was dying to have rules in "regular" 40k to play their DE/GK/SM/Inq/Tau alliance with superheavies and fliers and fortifications at 1500pts instead of with the existing apoc rules.

Hey Guys,


Not sure if this has been spotted yet, but BOLS posted a round up of a poster on warseer confirming some stuff. Very interesting read if this guy is on the level! Also "Harry" responds to him as well.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/02/wfb-9th-rules-bases-faction-changes.html



EDIT: SHOOT.... sorry, didn't see this was basically posted a page back. My bad.

Always pays to check a few pages back to see if it hasn't already been covered.

 Breotan wrote:
Always pays to check a few pages back to see if it hasn't already been covered.

What's amazing is that i did ... and somehow missed the three foot long, with red text, cut and paste from what i posted a link to.

I'm still trying to figure that out.


If what the random guy was saying was true though, i'm feeling a lot more comfortable with the changes coming to Fantasy.

Really?

Because I got the opposite reaction from reading that!

Maybe Haight hates fantasy and its current armies with a passion, and can now say, ah, thank god they finally destroyed it all?

I been playing GW stuff since 1990. That said, WFB and the RPGs, and fluff is a big part of what makes the game enjoyable to me. This End of Days stuff was fine as alternate to me adding options. Now rumors of bubble worlds bumping into each other floating around idea throwing out fluff for their new direction will ruin it for me for starts. Taking the traditional fantasy out of it and putting it into lets compete with Warmachine/Hordes and make new figures to look like fighting Panda World of Warcraft warm and fuzzy in a grimdark fantasy setting (I am being dramatic here but this is my understanding on rumors thus far) is not going to keep me with GW.

Secondly, removing a lot of our units out of our armies to make things invalid... ok, that is crap! (yes, i know they are in business... but if i want to play Magic the Gathering i would buy cards). I dont want to play an arms race to collect a super rare figure to be uber in a table top wargame... one good thing about historical figures you can not worry about this crap.. a sherman tank is a sherman tank lol.

On positve, Mordheim/skirmish optional rules idea would be good and a good way to bring in new players and play small fun games for us Vets, but if done right not the way the whole thing sounds.

Last, I honestly will stay with 8th Edition unless the rumors are crap. My brother had a heart attack (well dramatic here lol) and all i said was you dont have to play the new rule set .

Its just a shame if GW goes on this path for WFB in my opinion, as to me its an end of an age and Games Workshops needs to now change their name to GAME Workshop as they will pretty much only have 40k in future...

 Alpharius wrote:
Really?

Because I got the opposite reaction from reading that!

He said about 90% would be the same. That should be at least a little reassuring. He also said (or suggested) that old armies would still be useable in some fashion.

But you must admit that Fantasy needs to lower the price of admission for new players and moving to a skirmish style game engine will do just that.

 Haight wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
Always pays to check a few pages back to see if it hasn't already been covered.

What's amazing is that i did ... and somehow missed the three foot long, with red text, cut and paste from what i posted a link to.

I'm still trying to figure that out.


If what the random guy was saying was true though, i'm feeling a lot more comfortable with the changes coming to Fantasy.

Yeah I'm feeling a lot more comfortable too!

If the rules are staying 90% the same, that 10% can be including the skirmish rules and also making smaller blocks of infantry more viable.

If it's only characters and warmachines on circle bases, then people probably won't mind if I keep mine on square bases and this leaves my forces being able to play 8th and 9th as I see fit. (Or if I go to 9th, won't require much changing).

It also means my army books will likely still be usable (and if the Empire aren't getting updated from here on out, looks like I can use that book until it's officially invalidated... Warhammer editions usually last 5+ years right? So that's some mileage.)

Skirmish rules are gonna be awesome

And I have so many odd Empire bits, and new human faction can probably be kit bashed with my empire bitz to make them fit into my army.

10% price increase for the rulebook and 90% of "The Rules" stayed the same....

But when I compare other some older edtions, 90% of the core rules had always been the same and only minor changes made up the different editions.

 Alpharius wrote:
Really?

Because I got the opposite reaction from reading that!

Well they said the rules would be staying 90% the same, and round bases would just be for distinct unit types (i think warmachines - fine with that, though concerning about stuff like bells and censors and such that go in units, skirmishers - fine with this, and sometimes characters.... m'kay this needs clarification).

Basically the old factions will still be viable but not as immediately supported. THe game will now have a (vis-a-vis Rag'Na'Rok like) high scale and low scale game to it. Fine with this.

For a while the game will focus on supporting the low scale portion of the game. Understandable, it's brand new.

And it will be a while before the high scale sees much support. Also okay with this becasue...

.... the low scale minis will be useable at high scale in at least one "old" army. If i read that right. Some of the Eng(mang)lish was a bit hard to parse.


The bummer points: Brets and Beasts probably not getting a new book. That very much sucks. :(



So.... yeah. if 9th is 90% of 8th (which ostensibly, magic phase aside, is a good edition), and doesn't wall paper my tens of thousands of points of models. Yup, i'm feeling much more comfortable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joyboozer wrote:
Maybe Haight hates fantasy and its current armies with a passion, and can now say, ah, thank god they finally destroyed it all?

Maybe Joyboozer thinks that opinions are illegal and prefers hyperbolic henny-penny discourse rather than actually dissecting what the poster said, and applying it the post I made.


See, I can do back handed hyperbole too. If you read what the person posted and we (big if here, totally) assume its mostly on target.... people should be mostly very, very happy at some of the revelations in it. Is it 100% what we wanted to hear ? No, probably not. But it's miles from the worst case scenarios we were all fearing. The fact that there's some cross pollination between the large scale and low scale games as well is good.



(note: no applicable to Joyboozers quote, but just to note, i know that above this i mentioned "Rag'Na'Rok. I'm sure someone is going to just absolutely LEAP to say "and look what happened to confrontation !!!!". Fair. However Confrontation was dying before the RNR reboot is what i'll pre-emptively counterpoint with. 3.5 drove most of the players away, and their erratic release schedule and errata didn't help).

I thnk from just what we've seen/heard/hinted at so far goes beyond just a 10% change...

 Breotan wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Really?

Because I got the opposite reaction from reading that!

He said about 90% would be the same. That should be at least a little reassuring. He also said (or suggested) that old armies would still be useable in some fashion.

But you must admit that Fantasy needs to lower the price of admission for new players and moving to a skirmish style game engine will do just that.

Exactly !


What' Fantasy's biggest problem ? Multiple barriers to entry, the first being cost. Other than Island of Blood, what does your average fantasy army cost including rule books ? 600+ bucks if bought at MSRP ? That's huge. That's probably the number one reason why Fantasy has been losing players.

If they introduce a skirmish game within the game, with models that are backwards compatible into the regiment scale game, then that's a decent shot at breaking that barrier for those interested in the game.

Note they are taking other barrier to entry reducing methods too ; 50% in lords and heroes in End Times is a directly corrolating model count reducing move at the same time allowing them to uptick and upcreep the points cost of heroes and lords.

 Breotan wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Really?

Because I got the opposite reaction from reading that!

He said about 90% would be the same. That should be at least a little reassuring. He also said (or suggested) that old armies would still be useable in some fashion.

But you must admit that Fantasy needs to lower the price of admission for new players and moving to a skirmish style game engine will do just that.

- Lowering the price of entry, introducing skirmish elements. Absolutely brilliant move, but one that has been far, far too long in coming.
GW has moved the entry of miniature wargaming on the highstreet from the low and medium income earners solely into the hands of the wealthy middle and upper classes in previous years, it's a massive shame and is actually damaging the long term viability of the industry. In the UK at least, where we don't have the higher ratio of FLGS, and therefore the other games which have much lower entry price points, I can't say enough of how I am keen for this to happen.

Making existing armies defunct would also have been cruel beyond measure, so am also glad that this seems less likely now. I haven't played WHFB in some years, but know a lot of people who do and I feel for anyone who collects the game and wants to continue just turning up at clubs and stores and playing pick-up games.

 Alpharius wrote:
I thnk from just what we've seen/heard/hinted at so far goes beyond just a 10% change...

Right. I'm sure the guy is approximating but I think his point is that "it's mostly staying the same". That's what's worth being happy about if (big IF) its true.

Maybe it's 87.6529 % similar ?




Let's all remember too, that allegedly according to a few different rumors in the past few weeks, they almost shut Fantasy down completely ! I forget where that was stated, but i remember reading it on a couple different sites regarding 9th rumors. I don't find it that thard to believe if the 8% of profits for the company is true. That's.... lean profit wise.

So if you like WHFB, you really want 9th to succeed, even if it maybe doesn't tick every single box for you. Because if it crashes and burns, there's no guarantee there's going to be a 10th. I know my group and I will still play if that happened, but i know a lot of people can't say the same.

How did you come to this conclusion?

What I read you saying here is that they are throwing out a turd and then we're pretty much playing the game with a gun to our head. "BUY THIS STUFFS!!!, or we go broke and can't pay out our outrageous dividends...".

See, that's not how gaming works. Its a buyers market, On my end, GW forfeited their place when they evolved into the money grubbing scumbags that they have become. Bad as all that, GW does not even have the courtesy to discuss their new products, like, you know... we do in the real world.

Most companies LOVE to pimp their new shinnies, GW does it like a pickpocket.

So is this 90% like 9 out of 10 rules are staying the same, or is it like palladiums 90% where there are ideas that 90% of the game has been talked about but really nothing is set in stone?

 Grot 6 wrote:
How did you come to this conclusion?

What I read you saying here ... (snip)

Then you should probably re-read what it is i wrote instead of jumping to conclusions. Because almost the entirety of the rest of your post I'm not sure how you arrive at either through logic or supposition.

It's like you almost didn't even read the discourse between myself and the others, and just took a moment to break out the old GW-Hate soapbox. Which is fine, but why you chose this particular sub-tangent of conversation for this, and how you're attributing it to what i wrote I can't figure out.

....is that they are throwing out a turd and then we're pretty much playing the game with a gun to our head. "BUY THIS STUFFS!!!, or we go broke and can't pay out our outrageous dividends...".

See, that's not how gaming works. Its a buyers market, On my end, GW forfeited their place when they evolved into the money grubbing scumbags that they have become. Bad as all that, GW does not even have the courtesy to discuss their new products, like, you know... we do in the real world.

Most companies LOVE to pimp their new shinnies, GW does it like a pickpocket.

Not sure how you got that from what i posted. I posted in response to the guy that said i must hate WHFB to have my opinion that i was "more comfortable now than before" after reading that, if we use the assumption that what the guy posted was true. Which i acknowledged was a big if. Also, facts or explanation of supposition would be wonderful. It's a buyers market, what do you mean by this, or did it just sound weighty when you typed it ? GW being (your opinion here, and why you stopped buying their product) is all well and good but its a personal microcosm, and anecdotal at best. They still have customers, though by earnings reports, maybe less than they used to. I will agree with your sorta-kinda stated position that their communication with their customers is horrendous at best.

And this is how businesses work, contrary to what you posit (which, i'd love to hear your economic theory of product development and how it differs, for what it's worth!) if you have a product that is not profitable it is discontinued, or perhaps maybe revamped before being discontinued.
Despite all your high sounding analogies about pickpocket and turds and whatnot, that simple economic model still holds. A business produces a product, it is received in the market (well or poorly). If that product is deemed to be worth continuing to produce and support, then that product ages, and is either updated, replaced, or revamped, or, discontinued (due to lack of profitability or obsolescence).

With Fantasy taking nigh on a decade to fully update and not be complete (brets, beasts), and producing 8% of the portfolio of profits by all accounts, it's no wonder they are trying something new, moving in a new direction.

We've all heard a lot of disconcerting things about 9th ed, but from what we've heard, if we assume its true based on that one post from warseer, that left me feeling more comfortable than I had been (which, fair being fair, was the assumption that it was being downshifted pretty much to just a skirmish game. What we heard in snippets previous to this were a lot more obfuscated, and a lot more dire (rumors being such as they are).


I mean it's cool if people disagree and they're even more leery of impending 9th than they were, that's fine. But i mean... i know its the internet, but can we try to observe some of the normal rules of discourse and point and counter point ?


All i frickin' said was that after reading what that guy i wrote i was more comfortable than i was with my evolving idea of 9th. I then spent the next 4-5 posts defending against a bunch of baseless nonsense that I didn't actually say or infer.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Theophony wrote:
So is this 90% like 9 out of 10 rules are staying the same, or is it like palladiums 90% where there are ideas that 90% of the game has been talked about but really nothing is set in stone?

Haha, I actually did laugh out loud. I'm with you on this. I hope it's not a "Palladium 90%". Which is more like "the name, and just about nothing else".


I mean who knows. It's a guy posting on the internet. He could be completely wrong. It's all worthy of a mine of NaCL. We won't know until the book drops. I guess i'm okay with the idea that the game is going to have a sliding scale of scope and size, and rules to accomodate that. That's a tough nut to take on (like i mentioned before it was a grand idea with Rag'Na'Rok, which ultimately didn't pan out.... and Warmachine dipped their toe into some unofficially larger scope rules too, if memory serves, though i don't think that they did much with it other than a one off), but if there's rules in place that allows me to continue playing the game i know, and maybe take up a game i may (or may not) like within the game (skirmish scale), then i'd be okay with that in comparison to what other rumors we were hearing (i.e. no more regiment level game, re base your minis, etc etc).


Time will tell.

 Alpharius wrote:
I thnk from just what we've seen/heard/hinted at so far goes beyond just a 10% change...

I think so too. From the original quote:

9th edition will be 90% the same as 8th edition YES, ABOUT RULES

If the rules are 90% the same, that doesn't necessarily mean that armies aren't getting dumped and abandoned. (yet again folk are conflating 'rules' with 'background' and 'minis') And 'old armies are still playable', while true regardless of compatibility with 9th, doesn't fill me with confidence either. Specialist Games. 'Nuff said.

 Vermis wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I thnk from just what we've seen/heard/hinted at so far goes beyond just a 10% change...

I think so too. From the original quote:

9th edition will be 90% the same as 8th edition YES, ABOUT RULES

If the rules are 90% the same, that doesn't necessarily mean that armies aren't getting dumped and abandoned. (yet again folk are conflating 'rules' with 'background' and 'minis') And 'old armies are still playable', while true regardless of compatibility with 9th, doesn't fill me with confidence either. Specialist Games. 'Nuff said.

Fair point. I think a lot of the background in 9th is going to focus on Bubble-Hammer zones. I don't love that per-se, but i can at least understand it. If they do this sliding scale thing, they're going to have to focus a lot of love on the skirmish side of things in 9th so they can get their lesser barrier to entry off the ground.

I'm hoping that they embrace both though and not just slam the door on Regimental WHFB in favor 100% for bubble-hammer.

At least if the rules stay about 90% of what they are, its at least a pyrric victory. We'll have a good long while that the game will persist as we know it and enjoy it while figuring out if we like the skirmish side of it that's being introduced.


Edit: a couple bits of clarity.

 Haight wrote:

So if you like WHFB, you really want 9th to succeed, even if it maybe doesn't tick every single box for you. Because if it crashes and burns, there's no guarantee there's going to be a 10th.

I have one response to that.