Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Everything is going downhill, and has been for quite some time. I'd like to have a "everything is getting better" attitude, the problem is it isn't. I would say everything is going to suck until kirby is taken off the board and management revisited or until gw folds, whichever comes first. Then will be the time to re-evaluate.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
As for the "no restriction" stuff we did see for Archaon, I'm curious to know more about those pages because I have a hunch that they're limited to the End Times campaign setting, or they're for a WFB Apoc method of playing. Or both.

From the way it is worded it seems pretty across the board to me.

This section updates the rules for for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer, overriding any previous rules. All armies now use these rules for choosing an army.

Again, full context means everything. Forgive me for wanting to know the full scope of things before I choose sides on anything.

Now I no doubt will not be the first to point out you would argue with yourself if left in an empty room and even then about whether the sky was or was not blue. But ruling out time travel I think you may have lost track about what your actually trolling about, as in the other thread about the terrible new Khorne models you actually posted a picture of the full new end times army building rules confirming what you in the above post you say you want someone else to confirm, only that was an hour before you made the above post.

 Kanluwen wrote:
WHFB's "abysmal sales" and the tale it tells is usually a tale of "Why would people bother getting into the game if all they hear is criticism from their local community?".

Or it's just an unpopular game where the changes between editions were not wanted.

But no, no, continue to blame the community ('cause that's always a good idea) as you recharge your shields to defend GW.

What's next Kan? "Warhammer players are dead! Warhammer players don't have to be your audience!"

SeanDrake wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
As for the "no restriction" stuff we did see for Archaon, I'm curious to know more about those pages because I have a hunch that they're limited to the End Times campaign setting, or they're for a WFB Apoc method of playing. Or both.

From the way it is worded it seems pretty across the board to me.

This section updates the rules for for how to pick an army for games of Warhammer, overriding any previous rules. All armies now use these rules for choosing an army.

Again, full context means everything. Forgive me for wanting to know the full scope of things before I choose sides on anything.

Now I no doubt will not be the first to point out you would argue with yourself if left in an empty room and even then about whether the sky was or was not blue. But ruling out time travel I think you may have lost track about what your actually trolling about, as in the other thread about the terrible new Khorne models you actually posted a picture of the full new end times army building rules confirming what you in the above post you say you want someone else to confirm, only that was an hour before you made the above post.

I'm not trolling, I honestly want to see the full set of rules before I really make any opinions about them.

Unbound didn't ruin 40K at all. It's not used in tournaments, and I've ever seen one pickup game include an Unbound list. Users around the globe report the same on these very forums. It's basically an option that's there, that only a fraction of players ever utilize aside from joking around. Can we get someone in here to state how Unbound ruined their whole Warhammer 40K -hobby, and describe a detailed report as to how it happened ( aside from "I read about it, I didn't like it so I quit before anyone even played Unbound against me. I played once a year before, now I won't!" and other silly gak ) on a practical, concretical level ?

Shouldn't be any different for WHFB. It will be a way to build an army that will be rarely used and not approved for tournament play. There should be a new way to build armies come 9th according to the rumours. People who want to play Unbound are a fraction of the ones who don't. It will get passed off as a goofy option that is not taken seriously in FB, just like in 40K. It is also stated in the rumours that the End Times -books will be valid for 9th, but not supported. If I'm not mistaken, the "unbound FB" was included in the End Times books.

And, there is no evidence regarding 9th being all about the narrative. There is no evidence to it being bad or good, which are subjective terms to beginwith. There are only assumptions and supposed rumours ( that pertain to the structure and mechanics of the game. ) In essence, we will wait and see. Some folk are always demanding evidence about pretty much everything. But now it's okay to skip that part? Paradoxical.

Or jump to conclusions without any factual knowledge, if that's someones slice of cake to go about things. I think ClockworkZion's approach is by far the best. Wait, and see.

 RunicFIN wrote:
Unbound didn't ruin 40K at all. It's not used in tournaments, and I've ever seen one pickup game include an Unbound list. Users around the globe report the same on these very forums. It's basically an option that's there, that only a fraction of players ever utilize aside from joking around. Can we get someone in here to state how Unbound ruined their whole Warhammer 40K -hobby, and describe a detailed report as to how it happened ( aside from "I read about it, I didn't like it so I quit before anyone even played Unbound against me. I played once a year before, now I won't!" and other silly gak ) on a practical, concretical level ?

Shouldn't be any different for WHFB. It will be a way to build an army that will be rarely used and not approved for tournament play. There should be a new way to build armies come 9th according to the rumours. People who want to play Unbound are a fraction of the ones who don't. It will get passed off as a goofy option that is not taken seriously in FB, just like in 40K. It is also stated in the rumours that the End Times -books will be valid for 9th, but not supported. If I'm not mistaken, the "unbound FB" was included in the End Times books.

And, there is no evidence regarding 9th being all about the narrative. There is no evidence to it being bad or good, which are subjective terms to beginwith. There are only assumptions and supposed rumours ( that pertain to the structure and mechanics of the game. ) In essence, we will wait and see. Some folk are always demanding evidence about pretty much everything. But now it's okay to skip that part? Paradoxical.

Or jump to conclusions without any factual knowledge, if that's someones slice of cake to go about things. I think ClockworkZion's approach is by far the best. Wait, and see.

Yes, of course, why didn't we see it before. Mods, to the Modmobile! Shut down this entirely superfluous forum at once; discussing things before they come out is evidently pointless, as the only thing we could possibly post is apparently "I do not know for certain, so I must wait and see. Good day sir, I said good day."

Predictions for those that haven't been been paying attention to recent GW releases.

1. IP is King. Re-label, re-brand and if you can't do that, out it goes. Expect most of the generic fantasy stuff that GW can't Trademark to go.

2. Cost-savings is Queen. Copy n' Paste in CAD saves money, expect less variation in new kits. Expect more big kits as they provide cost savings and bigger profits. Expect a bigger emphasis on rules releases, and less on minis - rules are cheaper to produce.

3. Remove barriers to buying minis. GW doesn't want to stop you buying that fifth Bloodthirster because of a FOC. Unbound, allies, detachments and formations. Apocalypse WFB.

And again, all of that already happened in 40K, and people are playing it happily at tournaments nevertheless.

Well, happily might be a stretch..

 Azreal13 wrote:
I'm expecting the appearance of this new character to sort everything out...


But, you know, with more skulls.

So.. the Skull-let Witch?

 Yodhrin wrote:
Yes, of course, why didn't we see it before. Mods, to the Modmobile! Shut down this entirely superfluous forum at once; discussing things before they come out is evidently pointless, as the only thing we could possibly post is apparently "I do not know for certain, so I must wait and see. Good day sir, I said good day."

Or we can share ideas and consider possibilities without running off to ring the Doom Bell until we have a reason to do so.

That aside, I really don't think that we're going to be losing much from the game, just see some reorganization (maybe some reboxing) for the most part, assuming the combined army rumors are true. For all we know we'll just be picking up on a world similar to the Old World, but organized differently where a similar, but not identical story is playing out. This could allow GW to shuffle around motivations between different factions, redraw the map, place different factions against each other, and even change some of the history.

Or we could see the End Times become the current setting with that "millenia to play out" thing becoming a part of the setting and the world being an even crappier place than it was.

There is just a lot of possible outcomes going forward, and I know I'm only scratching the surface on what could be done with the setting.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
WHFB's "abysmal sales" and the tale it tells is usually a tale of "Why would people bother getting into the game if all they hear is criticism from their local community?".

Or it's just an unpopular game where the changes between editions were not wanted.

There was nothing wrong with 7th's core rules. All complaints were directed at unbalanced and obscene army books, Games Workshops answer was to take away things that require skill and let the person who wrote the most egregious of the army books write the new rules and it showed. I gave up when random charges, measure at all times, no guessing ranges, and making your now random charge irrelevant killed the game I had played since 1990. You can't even find a game here as players have moved on to better games.

 Therion wrote:
And again, all of that already happened in 40K, and people are playing it happily at tournaments nevertheless.

And sales continue to dwindle as evidenced by their annual and semi-annual reports.

And now the new edition of Warhammer - Warhammer: Age of Suckening! (WAS.)

Seriously - this kind of puts the nail in the game as far as everybody in my group is concerned - though the latest edition did a good job of building the coffin.

This would have been a very good time to do some, you know... Market Research.

Find out why people are dropping a game over burdened with badly written rules and over priced, over the top miniatures.

I still like older editions of Fantasy more than 40K - I like fantasy mass combat.

But this... seems more like an excuse to not bother fixing the problems - and focus on the models that make GW the most money.

I can't say that WAS has killed my interest in GW - it has been years since the last time I bought anything from them (ironically, that purchase was for Warhammer Fantasy....)

Changing everything does not mean that GW is fixing the problem - it means that they are panicking, fixing the problem would mean opening discussion - not surprising everyone with the end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it.

Trying to fix the problem would be looking at what they are doing wrong. Not just doing it louder.

The Auld Grump

Saldiven wrote:

 Therion wrote:
And again, all of that already happened in 40K, and people are playing it happily at tournaments nevertheless.

And sales continue to dwindle as evidenced by their annual and semi-annual reports.

Some of it may be their doing, some may be effects of things out of GW's control, like the current economy, and tabletop gaming just becoming smaller and smaller overall worldwide.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Changing everything does not mean that GW is fixing the problem - it means that they are panicking, fixing the problem would mean opening discussion - not surprising everyone with the end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it.

Changing things (we really don't even know if it's everything yet or they're going to put 9th in the End Times 11th hour or what's going on) doesn't automatically mean that they aren't trying to fix things either.

We have no solid evidence of what 9th will bring and if it can or will do anything to fix the game. I look forward to see what it is just to see what is really going to happen and I've got my fingers crossed it keeps what works in 8th, changes what doesn't (like how it keeps new players out of the game). Maybe it'll tick some people off, maybe it won't. I don't care if people get mad as long as it works. If it's an improvement then I can live with whatever it's doing differently.

 RunicFIN wrote:
Unbound didn't ruin 40K at all. It's not used in tournaments, and I've ever seen one pickup game include an Unbound list. Users around the globe report the same on these very forums. It's basically an option that's there, that only a fraction of players ever utilize aside from joking around. Can we get someone in here to state how Unbound ruined their whole Warhammer 40K -hobby, and describe a detailed report as to how it happened ( aside from "I read about it, I didn't like it so I quit before anyone even played Unbound against me. I played once a year before, now I won't!" and other silly gak ) on a practical, concretical level ?

Shouldn't be any different for WHFB. It will be a way to build an army that will be rarely used and not approved for tournament play. There should be a new way to build armies come 9th according to the rumours. People who want to play Unbound are a fraction of the ones who don't. It will get passed off as a goofy option that is not taken seriously in FB, just like in 40K. It is also stated in the rumours that the End Times -books will be valid for 9th, but not supported. If I'm not mistaken, the "unbound FB" was included in the End Times books.

And, there is no evidence regarding 9th being all about the narrative. There is no evidence to it being bad or good, which are subjective terms to beginwith. There are only assumptions and supposed rumours ( that pertain to the structure and mechanics of the game. ) In essence, we will wait and see. Some folk are always demanding evidence about pretty much everything. But now it's okay to skip that part? Paradoxical.

Or jump to conclusions without any factual knowledge, if that's someones slice of cake to go about things. I think ClockworkZion's approach is by far the best. Wait, and see.

Actually, unbound does have an effect. It gave GW a ready excuse for crap rules. Don't like your army restrictions? Use unbound.

I tried to explain to my sales rep why some of the new ork releases were sucking sales-wise. Pointed out that all the new Models (Gorkanaut, flashgitz, big gunz) were heavy support, competing with battlewagons, looted wagons, and now looters. Many players already had too many HS choices. His answer was that it didn't matter, convince them to play unbound......

 mikhaila wrote:
His answer was that it didn't matter, convince them to play unbound......

 Therion wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

 Therion wrote:
And again, all of that already happened in 40K, and people are playing it happily at tournaments nevertheless.

And sales continue to dwindle as evidenced by their annual and semi-annual reports.

Some of it may be their doing, some may be effects of things out of GW's control, like the current economy, and tabletop gaming just becoming smaller and smaller overall worldwide.

Except there is no evidence to suggest that the hobby as a whole is getting smaller, and all the evidence there is suggests it is getting larger, and rather rapidly.

 Therion wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

 Therion wrote:
And again, all of that already happened in 40K, and people are playing it happily at tournaments nevertheless.

And sales continue to dwindle as evidenced by their annual and semi-annual reports.

Some of it may be their doing, some may be effects of things out of GW's control, like the current economy, and tabletop gaming just becoming smaller and smaller overall worldwide.

Apart from literally every single item of evidence we have whether it be anecdotal or actual fact, suggests the exact contrary.

GW's figures began to tank just as the economy was beginning to recover in their key markets, and remained healthy throughout the worst of the financial crisis, and every time we get any news about any of the larger competitors, or amount spent on KS or any of a number of other sources, it is always unfailingly positive.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Changing things (we really don't even know if it's everything yet or they're going to put 9th in the End Times 11th hour or what's going on) doesn't automatically mean that they aren't trying to fix things either.

The direction of travel is quite clear. Maybe I'm completely wrong and 9th is an excellent game, in at least 1 universe it will be after all. I can't see me restarting my Empire army (made entirely of Perry Miniatures) though.

Cynicism or realism?

 Silent Puffin? wrote:


Cynicism or realism?

A fitting quote from the dearly departed Sir Terry:
"If there was anything that depressed him more than his own cynicism, it was that quite often it still wasn't as cynical as real life."

 Azreal13 wrote:
I'm expecting the appearance of this new character to sort everything out...


But, you know, with more skulls.

I truly hate that character.

I don't know why any other character in the Marvel universe just doesn't kill her

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Changing things (we really don't even know if it's everything yet or they're going to put 9th in the End Times 11th hour or what's going on) doesn't automatically mean that they aren't trying to fix things either.

The direction of travel is quite clear. Maybe I'm completely wrong and 9th is an excellent game, in at least 1 universe it will be after all. I can't see me restarting my Empire army (made entirely of Perry Miniatures) though.

Cynicism or realism?

Realism is the stance I'm taking. One where you don't draw conclusions based on gut feelings or your concerns but actual information.

Sure I am concerned at the new edition will suck, but I'm not applying that to my expectations without evidence,

No, you're not being realistic.

You're dismissing people's concerns on the basis that "we don't know anything yet" irrespective of how well founded their concerns may be, or how well supported by solid rumour or confirmed fact.

What you're peddling isn't realism, it's idealism.

There is nothing "realistic" to worry about until we actually know what 9E looks like. There is a lot of projecting going on here, and a lot of pessimist assumption that it will be "bad" without any real-world proof behind it.

I was a little pissy at first, but now I'm just waiting and seeing. In reality, I hardly ever gonna get to play anyway since I never seem to have time anymore. As long as they don't make my Lizardmen and Goblin armies totally useless I'll find a way to adapt, or else just make up house rules for em...

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
There is nothing "realistic" to worry about until we actually know what 9E looks like. There is a lot of projecting going on here, and a lot of pessimist assumption that it will be "bad" without any real-world proof behind it.

Other than rumours of what it will be like from solid sources dovetailing very neatly with actual photographs of the content of the next End ?Times book?

It seems perfectly realistic to me to be harbouring serious concerns, not proclaiming "everything might be ok, we just don't know!"

 Azreal13 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
There is nothing "realistic" to worry about until we actually know what 9E looks like. There is a lot of projecting going on here, and a lot of pessimist assumption that it will be "bad" without any real-world proof behind it.

Other than rumours of what it will be like from solid sources dovetailing very neatly with actual photographs of the content of the next End ?Times book?

It seems perfectly realistic to me to be harbouring serious concerns, not proclaiming "everything might be ok, we just don't know!"

After all, it's not every day an entire game universe gets wiped out and completely re-built!

Or, to out it another way, 30 years of history gets thrown in the bin!