81364
Post by: WrentheFaceless
The fact that something is killable, doesnt mean its balanced, you can kill every unit in the game, does that mean every unit is balanced?
78159
Post by: PlaguelordHobbyServices
 WrentheFaceless wrote:The fact that something is killable, doesnt mean its balanced, you can kill every unit in the game, does that mean every unit is balanced?
Come on, don't tell me you buy the hype about the Wave Serpent?
There is nothing inherently broken about it.
What army are you playing that you have a hard time with the Wave Serpent?
45133
Post by: ClockworkZion
Character is a model type, Independent Character is a special rule.
81364
Post by: WrentheFaceless
 PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote:The fact that something is killable, doesnt mean its balanced, you can kill every unit in the game, does that mean every unit is balanced?
Come on, don't tell me you buy the hype about the Wave Serpent?
There is nothing inherently broken about it.
What army are you playing that you have a hard time with the Wave Serpent?
Its far beyond hype when been proven that the Wave Serpent is worth far more than its cost
84472
Post by: Wolf_in_Human_Shape
Guys, the Wave Serpent argument has already been had a million times in as many places. Can we please keep this thread on topic?
78159
Post by: PlaguelordHobbyServices
WrentheFaceless wrote: PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote: WrentheFaceless wrote:The fact that something is killable, doesnt mean its balanced, you can kill every unit in the game, does that mean every unit is balanced?
Come on, don't tell me you buy the hype about the Wave Serpent?
There is nothing inherently broken about it.
What army are you playing that you have a hard time with the Wave Serpent?
Its far beyond hype when been proven that the Wave Serpent is worth far more than its cost
"proven" I don't think that word means what you think it means.
Arguably, the Wave Serpent is on par with the IG Valkyrie in terms of power level. And for fluff reasons, why shouldn't the ancient race have a near-perfected frontline combat vehicle? They've been around longer than the Imperium, the theory is sound that they've had more ample time to perfect their technology.
It fits, deal with it, quit acting like there isn't something nearly exactly like it in an IoM list somewhere.
I refuse to continue discussing the Eldar Wave Serpent in a thread about the Chaos Daemonkin release.
Back on topic, I'm just about as eager to see if we're finally getting new berserker models in that warband box. because those models on the box look very different from the zerkers we have now, or even bloodletters.
84472
Post by: Wolf_in_Human_Shape
Is there a better picture of the box somewhere? From the Blog for the Blood God picture, the size is too small and there's far too much glare for me to tell anything about it.
45133
Post by: ClockworkZion
 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:Is there a better picture of the box somewhere? From the Blog for the Blood God picture, the size is too small and there's far too much glare for me to tell anything about it.
Nothing yet. I kind of expect more pictures to be coming soon, but either way I have a copy reserved I'll be getting this weekend.
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Post by: PlaguelordHobbyServices
Is this from This week's white dwarf weekly? If so, I might get one just to scan and enlarge the image myself.
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Post by: Warhams-77
Games workshop has never put a new unit kit into an army/battleforce discount set at its first release during the last 5 years. There are no new Berzerker models! Not now and not next week (first AdMech week - see leaked images  ). You got punk'd by Bols and Steve the Warboss/Natfka
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Post by: lord_blackfang
Oh my gosh, the Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster has Soul Blaze! *squeals with excitement*
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Post by: Talys
PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote:
Arguably, the Wave Serpent is on par with the IG Valkyrie in terms of power level. And for fluff reasons, why shouldn't the ancient race have a near-perfected frontline combat vehicle? They've been around longer than the Imperium, the theory is sound that they've had more ample time to perfect their technology.
It fits, deal with it, quit acting like there isn't something nearly exactly like it in an IoM list somewhere.
I wasn't going to wade into this, but... The issue isn't that the Wave Serpent is too good as a unit, it's that WS is too good for a DT.
They're not comparable units, because the best thing about Wave Serpents is that they are dedicated transports, so you can take 6 with troops in a CAD without eating up any other slots, whereas Valkyries are FA -- not only can you only take 3, but do you really want only Valkyries in your precious FA slots? No Armored Sentinel Squadron, and no Vendettas?
Now, if the next IG codex made Valkyries DT's, then people would say Valkyries are way too good -- because suddenly, IG lists would be packed with with 6 cheap flyers with 6 troops for just over a thousand points, leaving not only 800 points to work with, but all the preimium FOC slots too.
In terms of Eldar getting a the fun toys because they're an ancient race, that's what points are for. Yes, they are more powerful, but because of a crappy situation (you know, the Fall, and all that), they have fewer resources and therefore have fewer numbers they can bring to battle. If that weren't the case, 40k would be pointless, because pre-Fall Eldar would have squished humans like a ten year old kicking over an ant hill. Heck, they had (have?) the technology to snuff out stars, which is a pretty convincing way to start a fight.
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Post by: pretre
Why people continue to believe mongers like them, I don't get...
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Post by: inquisitorlewis
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:Is there a better picture of the box somewhere? From the Blog for the Blood God picture, the size is too small and there's far too much glare for me to tell anything about it.
Would it be possible to see the original picture in question? I went back through a few pages, but couldn't find the picture that you are asking about.
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Post by: Wayniac
So is there actually like a detachment (formation? what are they called nowadays) for CSM + Daemons?
EDIT: Nevermind, looks like i Just need to read better lol
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Post by: Wolf_in_Human_Shape
 inquisitorlewis wrote: Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:Is there a better picture of the box somewhere? From the Blog for the Blood God picture, the size is too small and there's far too much glare for me to tell anything about it.
Would it be possible to see the original picture in question? I went back through a few pages, but couldn't find the picture that you are asking about.
It's the one below the stupid blog symbol:
I can make out a Helbrute in the back, but that's about it.
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Post by: inquisitorlewis
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: inquisitorlewis wrote: Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:Is there a better picture of the box somewhere? From the Blog for the Blood God picture, the size is too small and there's far too much glare for me to tell anything about it.
Would it be possible to see the original picture in question? I went back through a few pages, but couldn't find the picture that you are asking about.
It's the one below the stupid blog symbol:
Thanks.
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Post by: Wayniac
It repeatedly boggles my mind why they make things like the datacards, which seem to be almost an essential part of the game, limited stock. Why on earth would you limit that??
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Post by: Wolf_in_Human_Shape
WayneTheGame wrote:It repeatedly boggles my mind why they make things like the datacards, which seem to be almost an essential part of the game, limited stock. Why on earth would you limit that??
Good question. I don't really know the logistics of such things, but it seems like they'd be among the cheaper products to mass produce.
I missed out on the Space Wolves cards, not gonna miss out on these.
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Post by: undertow
WayneTheGame wrote:It repeatedly boggles my mind why they make things like the datacards, which seem to be almost an essential part of the game, limited stock. Why on earth would you limit that??
I was hoping to see some Khorne-themed dice from GW. I bought some from Chessex a couple years ago, but I'd still buy a couple sets of the GW ones.
Why they make anything like that limited boggles my mind as well.
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Post by: Wayniac
 undertow wrote:WayneTheGame wrote:It repeatedly boggles my mind why they make things like the datacards, which seem to be almost an essential part of the game, limited stock. Why on earth would you limit that??
I was hoping to see some Khorne-themed dice from GW. I bought some from Chessex a couple years ago, but I'd still buy a couple sets of the GW ones. Why they make anything like that limited boggles my mind as well.
It's really things like that which make me wonder just what their goal is. They claim to be a miniature company not a game company, but how many things are limited/no longer available? How long before this box is "Sold Out" like the others and goes away? What, do they expect people to buy everything the minute it's available, just because it's released? Wait, they probably DO think that... 
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Post by: Kanluwen
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:WayneTheGame wrote:It repeatedly boggles my mind why they make things like the datacards, which seem to be almost an essential part of the game, limited stock. Why on earth would you limit that??
Good question. I don't really know the logistics of such things, but it seems like they'd be among the cheaper products to mass produce.
I missed out on the Space Wolves cards, not gonna miss out on these.
The cards aren't produced in-house, they're produced at the same printer that does the army books.
That's why the Harlequin datacards took so long to come out as they were held up on the West Coast.
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Post by: Wolf_in_Human_Shape
 Kanluwen wrote: Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:WayneTheGame wrote:It repeatedly boggles my mind why they make things like the datacards, which seem to be almost an essential part of the game, limited stock. Why on earth would you limit that??
Good question. I don't really know the logistics of such things, but it seems like they'd be among the cheaper products to mass produce.
I missed out on the Space Wolves cards, not gonna miss out on these.
The cards aren't produced in-house, they're produced at the same printer that does the army books.
Ok, but they surely have a cost associated with producing them? That was more the thrust of my point, that it seems like their limited availability shouldn't be based on that cost.
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Post by: gorgon
 pretre wrote:
Why people continue to believe mongers like them, I don't get...
It's because they're reasonably good at giving people what they WANT to believe.
- When people want to know what's coming up in 6 to 12 months, Faeit and BOLS supply them with lists and timelines.
- When we already have a vague idea about what armies are coming up next, people want rumors about rules and minis. Faeit and BOLS supply rumors.
- When we know what the next release is, people want to know kit and rule details. Faeit and BOLS supply those details.
And in all these cases, the more "fan fave" stuff you work in, the more traction it gets. Because people WANT to believe it. It's a simple formula.
undertow wrote:WayneTheGame wrote:It repeatedly boggles my mind why they make things like the datacards, which seem to be almost an essential part of the game, limited stock. Why on earth would you limit that??
I was hoping to see some Khorne-themed dice from GW. I bought some from Chessex a couple years ago, but I'd still buy a couple sets of the GW ones.
Why they make anything like that limited boggles my mind as well.
Probably because they've seen how the sales of stuff like that tend to drop off precipitously a short time after release. It costs them money to have stuff sitting in warehouses -- and they've become extremely cost-sensitive -- so they only produce what they know will sell in that initial window.
Note -- I'm not saying that they couldn't do a better job at gauging demand. I've gone on some annoying GW product scavenger hunts myself in recent months.
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Post by: pretre
 gorgon wrote:It's because they're reasonably good at giving people what they WANT to believe.
- When people want to know what's coming up in 6 to 12 months, Faeit and BOLS supply them with lists and timelines.
- When we already have a vague idea about what armies are coming up next, people want rumors about rules and minis. Faeit and BOLS supply rumors.
- When we know what the next release is, people want to know kit and rule details. Faeit and BOLS supply those details.
And in all these cases, the more "fan fave" stuff you work in, the more traction it gets. Because people WANT to believe it. It's a simple formula.
No, I get that. I just wonder why, after they are wrong so many times, they still buy it. Wanting to believe only goes so far...
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Post by: Platuan4th
You'd think so, but then again there's still people who hold out hope that GW will suddenly learn how to make good, balanced rules, too.
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Post by: Wayniac
 Platuan4th wrote: You'd think so, but then again there's still people who hold out hope that GW will suddenly learn how to make good, balanced rules, too.
Somewhere in an alternate reality this exists, and people are laughing and rejoicing while they gleefully paint cheap Space Marines, there are dozens of 40k and Fantasy tournaments going on that are broadcasted live, and GW is prosperous. The devs answer questions on Twitter and Facebook and do weekly podcasts to talk about goings on, and Specialist Games are thriving as a gateway. 
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Post by: Nostromodamus
WayneTheGame wrote: undertow wrote:WayneTheGame wrote:It repeatedly boggles my mind why they make things like the datacards, which seem to be almost an essential part of the game, limited stock. Why on earth would you limit that??
I was hoping to see some Khorne-themed dice from GW. I bought some from Chessex a couple years ago, but I'd still buy a couple sets of the GW ones.
Why they make anything like that limited boggles my mind as well.
It's really things like that which make me wonder just what their goal is. They claim to be a miniature company not a game company, but how many things are limited/no longer available? How long before this box is "Sold Out" like the others and goes away? What, do they expect people to buy everything the minute it's available, just because it's released? Wait, they probably DO think that...
Kinda lends credence to that rumor that was shouted down about GW doing time-limited releases for the new version of WFB, doesn't it?
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Post by: Wayniac
 Alex C wrote:WayneTheGame wrote: undertow wrote:WayneTheGame wrote:It repeatedly boggles my mind why they make things like the datacards, which seem to be almost an essential part of the game, limited stock. Why on earth would you limit that??
I was hoping to see some Khorne-themed dice from GW. I bought some from Chessex a couple years ago, but I'd still buy a couple sets of the GW ones.
Why they make anything like that limited boggles my mind as well.
It's really things like that which make me wonder just what their goal is. They claim to be a miniature company not a game company, but how many things are limited/no longer available? How long before this box is "Sold Out" like the others and goes away? What, do they expect people to buy everything the minute it's available, just because it's released? Wait, they probably DO think that...
Kinda lends credence to that rumor that was shouted down about GW doing time-limited releases for the new version of WFB, doesn't it?
I don't think they would be that stupid...
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Post by: ImAGeek
WayneTheGame wrote: Alex C wrote:WayneTheGame wrote: undertow wrote:WayneTheGame wrote:It repeatedly boggles my mind why they make things like the datacards, which seem to be almost an essential part of the game, limited stock. Why on earth would you limit that??
I was hoping to see some Khorne-themed dice from GW. I bought some from Chessex a couple years ago, but I'd still buy a couple sets of the GW ones.
Why they make anything like that limited boggles my mind as well.
It's really things like that which make me wonder just what their goal is. They claim to be a miniature company not a game company, but how many things are limited/no longer available? How long before this box is "Sold Out" like the others and goes away? What, do they expect people to buy everything the minute it's available, just because it's released? Wait, they probably DO think that...
Kinda lends credence to that rumor that was shouted down about GW doing time-limited releases for the new version of WFB, doesn't it?
I don't think they would be that stupid...
Nothing they could do would surprise me these days.
83501
Post by: Nostromodamus
WayneTheGame wrote: Alex C wrote:WayneTheGame wrote: undertow wrote:WayneTheGame wrote:It repeatedly boggles my mind why they make things like the datacards, which seem to be almost an essential part of the game, limited stock. Why on earth would you limit that??
I was hoping to see some Khorne-themed dice from GW. I bought some from Chessex a couple years ago, but I'd still buy a couple sets of the GW ones.
Why they make anything like that limited boggles my mind as well.
It's really things like that which make me wonder just what their goal is. They claim to be a miniature company not a game company, but how many things are limited/no longer available? How long before this box is "Sold Out" like the others and goes away? What, do they expect people to buy everything the minute it's available, just because it's released? Wait, they probably DO think that...
Kinda lends credence to that rumor that was shouted down about GW doing time-limited releases for the new version of WFB, doesn't it?
I don't think they would be that stupid...
Discontinuing Specialist Games proves they are.
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Post by: Fayric
People saying the new great axe BT is awesome forget that:
1.He can easily be shot to death before he can do any damage.
2. He pretty much has to take out the entire enemy force by him self because his army buddies suck at what they do.
3. He is your 300+ point can opener; if the enemy has 3 or more units with AV he will be all busy busting them because you dont have alot of other options.
4. While great against single rough stuff, so many units dont care if he has a D weapon or not, and outclass him in CC because he strike last.
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Post by: Kanluwen
Alex C wrote:WayneTheGame wrote: undertow wrote:WayneTheGame wrote:It repeatedly boggles my mind why they make things like the datacards, which seem to be almost an essential part of the game, limited stock. Why on earth would you limit that??
I was hoping to see some Khorne-themed dice from GW. I bought some from Chessex a couple years ago, but I'd still buy a couple sets of the GW ones.
Why they make anything like that limited boggles my mind as well.
It's really things like that which make me wonder just what their goal is. They claim to be a miniature company not a game company, but how many things are limited/no longer available? How long before this box is "Sold Out" like the others and goes away? What, do they expect people to buy everything the minute it's available, just because it's released? Wait, they probably DO think that...
Kinda lends credence to that rumor that was shouted down about GW doing time-limited releases for the new version of WFB, doesn't it?
No, it really does not.
The boxed sets that they have been doing are not generally going away within any short timeframe.
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Post by: astro_nomicon
skycapt44 wrote:The Bloodthirster will likely be something like Strength D to sell the models.
Somebody give this man a cookie! He called it page 2 of this thread 
A Bloodthirster swingin' the D is pretty damn sweet, don't get me wrong, but there is still the problem of getting that big bad boy in to combat. In my experience the only reason other Daemon FMCs make it into combat is through a combination of good rolls on the greater rewards table, psychic powers from either the biomancy (iron arm, endurance) or telepathy (invis, shrouding) tables, or the good ol' Grimoire. The Bloodthirster is still lacking the psychic portion of that magic cocktail (which is a larger portion than the rewards table if you ask me), and we all know if you want the Grimoire to work, you pretty much have to take the BigBird. That limits you to one of these guys in a CAD. Even then, you're still forgoing our much needed Heralds (Tzeentch for psychic dice/buffs/summoning Khorne for killin' gak), AND you have to find someone to be a Grimoire caddy. It's not as big of a deal if you're playing double CAD or with self ally allowed, but they still very much demand to be built around if they are going to succeed. Be'lakor (read: Invis'akor) seems pretty close to mandatory in that light. The new BT's may be hard to hide, but Baby Be'la is certainly not.
Still though, you have to consider what would happen to a Bloodthirster caught with his junk in the wind: A Skyray still eats this guy for breakfast AND takes his lunch money if it gets both marker light hits. 2 skyrays and he is most certainly dead.
TL;DR: The prospect of D is amazeballs, but the changes to the Bloodthirster do not address it's main problem, which was getting to combat in the first place.
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Post by: drbored
 Fayric wrote:People saying the new great axe BT is awesome forget that:
1.He can easily be shot to death before he can do any damage.
2. He pretty much has to take out the entire enemy force by him self because his army buddies suck at what they do.
3. He is your 300+ point can opener; if the enemy has 3 or more units with AV he will be all busy busting them because you dont have alot of other options.
4. While great against single rough stuff, so many units dont care if he has a D weapon or not, and outclass him in CC because he strike last.
And you pretty much highlight the problems with the assault phase entirely.
But who knows? Maybe after Fantasy 9th, they'll come out with 40k 8th next year and the shooting phase will become garbage and the assault phase will become king and everyone will have to buy butt-tons of new models? It makes sense. Look at it this way...
If GW needs to update the following models to complete some codices...
-Howling Banshees
-Striking Scorpions
-Incubi
-Khorne Berzerkers
-Noise Marines
-All things Kroot
And there's rumors that Genestealer Cult is coming out sometime... It'd make perfect sense for them to boost the assault phase. Suddenly, Tau and Eldar players are ditching their Wraithguard and Fire Warriors for Aspect Warriors and Kroot!
But I'm just speculating on a horrendous degree here.
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Post by: skkipper
D weapon thirster doesn't need to strike last. He can be gifted another weapon that strikes at int.
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Post by: skycapt44
 astro_nomicon wrote:skycapt44 wrote:The Bloodthirster will likely be something like Strength D to sell the models.
Somebody give this man a cookie! He called it page 2 of this thread A Bloodthirster swingin' the D is pretty damn sweet, don't get me wrong, but there is still the problem of getting that big bad boy in to combat. In my experience the only reason other Daemon FMCs make it into combat is through a combination of good rolls on the greater rewards table, psychic powers from either the biomancy (iron arm, endurance) or telepathy (invis, shrouding) tables, or the good ol' Grimoire. The Bloodthirster is still lacking the psychic portion of that magic cocktail (which is a larger portion than the rewards table if you ask me), and we all know if you want the Grimoire to work, you pretty much have to take the BigBird. That limits you to one of these guys in a CAD. Even then, you're still forgoing our much needed Heralds (Tzeentch for psychic dice/buffs/summoning Khorne for killin' gak), AND you have to find someone to be a Grimoire caddy. It's not as big of a deal if you're playing double CAD or with self ally allowed, but they still very much demand to be built around if they are going to succeed. Be'lakor (read: Invis'akor) seems pretty close to mandatory in that light. The new BT's may be hard to hide, but Baby Be'la is certainly not. Still though, you have to consider what would happen to a Bloodthirster caught with his junk in the wind: A Skyray still eats this guy for breakfast AND takes his lunch money if it gets both marker light hits. 2 skyrays and he is most certainly dead. TL;DR: The prospect of D is amazeballs, but the changes to the Bloodthirster do not address it's main problem, which was getting to combat in the first place.
Give people what they want, for most people...it's the D. I was just hoping my Foreword thirster (massive beast) could finally make use of his Axe with the appropriate Strength. When in doubt run 2. Win or lose it's still blood for the blood god. You'll want that lesser reward to have the regular Axe as back up. It's a mere 10 points.
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Post by: Talys
WayneTheGame wrote:It repeatedly boggles my mind why they make things like the datacards, which seem to be almost an essential part of the game, limited stock. Why on earth would you limit that??
Me too. You know what's more crazy, my store was told they could only order 1 set of datacards for every 2 codices with the Harlequins. So, of course, anyone without a reservation was SOL on the cards >.<
90752
Post by: Warhams-77
pretre wrote: gorgon wrote:It's because they're reasonably good at giving people what they WANT to believe.
- When people want to know what's coming up in 6 to 12 months, Faeit and BOLS supply them with lists and timelines.
- When we already have a vague idea about what armies are coming up next, people want rumors about rules and minis. Faeit and BOLS supply rumors.
- When we know what the next release is, people want to know kit and rule details. Faeit and BOLS supply those details.
And in all these cases, the more "fan fave" stuff you work in, the more traction it gets. Because people WANT to believe it. It's a simple formula.
No, I get that. I just wonder why, after they are wrong so many times, they still buy it. Wanting to believe only goes so far...
When I talk to people in my gaming club or in shops who basically get most of their infomation about GW products from those blogs, you can see how much damage the lack of checking the quality of sources does deal to people in the long time. It creates a large amount of frustration caused by what is in the end just crap-quality journalism. It is not good service to the readers when authors/bloggers do not invest a bit of their time into a system to check the info they get before publishing and also not keep stuff for themselves that's of dubious origin.
Back to the topic of this thread, the Codex: Khorne Daemonkin could contain different rules to those printed in Codex: CSM and Codex: CD. So stuff like better protection, charging after outflanking or deepstriking and other boni could still be provided by the book. The datasheets in White Dwarf, the Bloodthirsters, are for Codex: Chaos Daemons only. See the symbol on the sheets. Maybe (!) the Codex: KDK is a faction of its own which would make the most sense actually. If... there is a good chance they will differ quite a bit from the other books. Crimson Slaughter Possessed differ from the unit in the CSM book for example
Automatically Appended Next Post: A larger pic of the army box - source: www.waaaghgaming. de
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Post by: Wolf_in_Human_Shape
Warhams-77 wrote: Maybe (!) the Codex: KDK is a faction of its own which would make the most sense actually. If... there is a good chance they will differ quite a bit from the other books. Crimson Slaughter Possessed differ from the unit in the CSM book for example.
I'm thinking this may be the case. It's curious either way, because CSM and Daemons don't have identical interactions on the allies matrix.
67097
Post by: angelofvengeance
I wonder if there will be a World Eaters paint video on YouTube when this lands
90752
Post by: Warhams-77
Maybe my added post was missed, the pic shows Berzerker and Possessed are now sold on 32 mm Bases. No new models (as we already knew)
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Post by: Lord Yayula
Mmmm they actually look as they have always looked, no 32 mm but 25 mm, you can look at the helmetless zerk his legs barely fit on the base, just like it actually does. Same with the possessed and the normal marines, no new bases it seems
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Post by: Chad Warden
So are Bloodletters 32mm too? Just the herald?
84360
Post by: Mymearan
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:Warhams-77 wrote: Maybe (!) the Codex: KDK is a faction of its own which would make the most sense actually. If... there is a good chance they will differ quite a bit from the other books. Crimson Slaughter Possessed differ from the unit in the CSM book for example.
I'm thinking this may be the case. It's curious either way, because CSM and Daemons don't have identical interactions on the allies matrix.
They will obviously make a separate allies matrix for this codex. Anything else would be clunky and weird.
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Post by: angelofvengeance
There is actually a good amount of space left on there, even if the legs are spread quite wide. I think they're just positioned further back on the bases.
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Post by: Wayniac
Warhams-77 wrote: pretre wrote: gorgon wrote:It's because they're reasonably good at giving people what they WANT to believe.
- When people want to know what's coming up in 6 to 12 months, Faeit and BOLS supply them with lists and timelines.
- When we already have a vague idea about what armies are coming up next, people want rumors about rules and minis. Faeit and BOLS supply rumors.
- When we know what the next release is, people want to know kit and rule details. Faeit and BOLS supply those details.
And in all these cases, the more "fan fave" stuff you work in, the more traction it gets. Because people WANT to believe it. It's a simple formula.
No, I get that. I just wonder why, after they are wrong so many times, they still buy it. Wanting to believe only goes so far...
When I talk to people in my gaming club or in shops who basically get most of their infomation about GW products from those blogs, you can see how much damage the lack of checking the quality of sources does deal to people in the long time. It creates a large amount of frustration caused by what is in the end just crap-quality journalism. It is not good service to the readers when authors/bloggers do not invest a bit of their time into a system to check the info they get before publishing and also not keep stuff for themselves that's of dubious origin.
Back to the topic of this thread, the Codex: Khorne Daemonkin could contain different rules to those printed in Codex: CSM and Codex: CD. So stuff like better protection, charging after outflanking or deepstriking and other boni could still be provided by the book. The datasheets in White Dwarf, the Bloodthirsters, are for Codex: Chaos Daemons only. See the symbol on the sheets. Maybe (!) the Codex: KDK is a faction of its own which would make the most sense actually. If... there is a good chance they will differ quite a bit from the other books. Crimson Slaughter Possessed differ from the unit in the CSM book for example
Automatically Appended Next Post:
A larger pic of the army box - source: www.waaaghgaming. de
WELL NOW. That looks VERY tempting to pick up to do the Revelation of Gore. But wait, Khorne sucks in 40k now don't they?
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Post by: akwing00
Do we know if the rewards system (lesser, greater, exalted) are the same as in the Codex Daemons or do you guys think it might be different?
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Post by: Lord Yayula
 akwing00 wrote:Do we know if the rewards system (lesser, greater, exalted) are the same as in the Codex Daemons or do you guys think it might be different?
Read from a guy with the WD that it was the same rewards
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Post by: XT-1984
Its been said they are identical to the ones in Codex: Chaos Daemons.
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Post by: Azreal13
The dataslates in WD are for the new C:CD Thirster, so yes the rewards are the same.
C:KD may be different again.
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Post by: akwing00
 XT-1984 wrote:Its been said they are identical to the ones in Codex: Chaos Daemons.
well that's slightly disappointing, guess I'll stick to the 2 greater 1 lesser rewards pattern as usual
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Post by: Lord Yayula
 Azreal13 wrote:The dataslates in WD are for the new C:CD Thirster, so yes the rewards are the same.
C: KD may be different again.
Well this is the direct Quote from the guy who claims to have the WD:
Got my white dwarf... so good , theres a boon of khorne rule for a formation called the slaughtercult - when you pay the tithe they give you two results from the table instead of one , then you pick what one you want.
You must use points correctly... so if you you gain 6 points and a herald costs 4 - you will loose your remaining points. no stacking...makes the 8 point bloodthirster harder to summon. 8 is the max points that can be held.
only the classic bloodthirster build (normal demon codex one or unfettered fury in this book) can be summoned by tithe rules.
demonic rewards are the normal codex demon rewards.
Sounds to me that confirms the gifts a for the new codex are the same
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Post by: akwing00
 Lord Yayula wrote: Azreal13 wrote:The dataslates in WD are for the new C:CD Thirster, so yes the rewards are the same.
C: KD may be different again.
Well this is the direct Quote from the guy who claims to have the WD:
Got my white dwarf... so good , theres a boon of khorne rule for a formation called the slaughtercult - when you pay the tithe they give you two results from the table instead of one , then you pick what one you want.
You must use points correctly... so if you you gain 6 points and a herald costs 4 - you will loose your remaining points. no stacking...makes the 8 point bloodthirster harder to summon. 8 is the max points that can be held.
only the classic bloodthirster build (normal demon codex one or unfettered fury in this book) can be summoned by tithe rules.
demonic rewards are the normal codex demon rewards.
Sounds to me that confirms the gifts a for the new codex are the same
I was hoping for rewards that might provide the thirster with more survivability, as it only benefits from the +1W and IWND, 4+ FnP, and reroll of invulns greater rewards. Hopefully some of the results you can pay tithes with will help out, I saw it mentioned that one of them is FnP.
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Post by: Azreal13
That seems like an awful lot of info from a WD, and does that mean we get the tables duplicated or need the original book?
I'm not dismissing a guy who has better access to info than I do currently, but this isn't something I'm too concerned about either way anyway.
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Post by: Lord Yayula
Azreal13 wrote:That seems like an awful lot of info from a WD, and does that mean we get the tables duplicated or need the original book?
I'm not dismissing a guy who has better access to info than I do currently, but this isn't something I'm too concerned about either way anyway.
I also have no solid info on this buuuut, I'm gonna stick with the you need the codex daemon as well, I mean I'm on the theory that this will be an End Timesesque release, where only a list of units available for this army are concentrated in one page and that's it so you need both Codex Daemons and Codex CSM, just like in fantasy you need Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings to play your Undead Legions army. The book only covers the interaction of rules for both armies.
As an example in WHFB if you play a Legion of Chaos army (Beastmen/ WoC/Daemons) they lose the Daemonic Instability rule and are just unbreakable, which be the 40k equivalent to Fearless, which might happen if GW plans to allow CSM IC to join daemons, or allow the champions/heralds to roll on the Eye of the Gods table, stuff like that that combines both armies rules. I guess this is what we'll see here, along with new relics, traits, formations and special scenarios
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Post by: Kanluwen
Lord Yayula wrote: Azreal13 wrote:That seems like an awful lot of info from a WD, and does that mean we get the tables duplicated or need the original book?
I'm not dismissing a guy who has better access to info than I do currently, but this isn't something I'm too concerned about either way anyway.
I also have no solid info on this buuuut, I'm gonna stick with the you need the codex daemon as well, I mean I'm on the theory that this will be an End Timesesque release, where only a list of units available for this army are concentrated in one page and that's it so you need both Codex Daemons and Codex CSM, just like in fantasy you need Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings to play your Undead Legions army. The book only covers the interaction of rules for both armies.
That doesn't really fit with the recent 40k supplement releases.
Harlequins flatout changed the way a Harlequin Troupe and Shadowseer can be equipped--without allowing it for C: Eldar.
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Post by: Warhams-77
The book is, according to people who have the WD, an entirely independent codex. It has 120 pages and contains everything from both books to play this army 
The three White Dwarf datasheets for the Bloodthirster need the Codex: Chaos Daemons
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Post by: Lord Yayula
But weren't the Harlequins a choice in the eldar/dark eldar codexes, which later made a new "faction" with different harlequin units?
That is completely different from this, this is a use units from two different existing armies to gain some special rules, that sounds exactly like any End Times book.
Even the bundle, there are no new models at all contrary to the Harlequins but they actually fit with the bundles released for WHFB, which contained units from different armybooks like
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/The-Legion-of-Khorne-Web-Bundle
The Adeptus Mechanicus release after this one will probably follow the Harlequin pattern as it takes a completely new army into the game with new models and therefore new rules Automatically Appended Next Post: Warhams-77 wrote:The book is, according to people who have the WD, an entirely independent codex. It has 120 pages and contains everything from both books to play this army
The three White Dwarf datasheets for the Bloodthirster need the Codex: Chaos Daemons
I wouldn't trust that "contains everything from both books to play this army", look at the description from the Nagash rulebook: "Warhammer: Nagash Book 2 is a 96-page volume that contains new scenarios and rules based on the events in Warhammer: Nagash Book 1. It includes the full rules that will allow you to field Nagash and his loyal subjects " that might sound that you only need this book to play but once you get it you realize you need both VC and TK
I mean sure I could be wrong and this one could have the reprint of all the entries but I wouldn't bet of that. This same there will be new entries happened on the Black Legion Supplement, and then once they stopped calling them Supplement and were called Codex as the Crimson Slaughter one
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Post by: Kanluwen
Lord Yayula wrote:But weren't the Harlequins a choice in the eldar/dark eldar codexes, which later made a new "faction" with different harlequin units?
That is completely different from this, this is a use units from two different existing armies to gain some special rules, that sounds exactly like any End Times book.
Even the bundle, there are no new models at all contrary to the Harlequins but they actually fit with the bundles released for WHFB, which contained units from different armybooks like
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/The-Legion-of-Khorne-Web-Bundle
The Adeptus Mechanicus release after this one will probably follow the Harlequin pattern as it takes a completely new army into the game with new models and therefore new rules
The Harlequin Troupe, Shadowseer, and Death Jester were all in the Eldar book.
They still are in fact.
And continuously using End Times as an example isn't necessarily correct. The reason the End Times books were set up that way is that you're talking about multiple armies in their entirety being recycled. Spells, characters, magic items, and the army list as a whole.
It was easier(and more money for GW...) to require players to have all the books than it was to just cram the End Times books full of those items. And since you're not required to pull from all the books anyways, it would not necessarily have all been utilized.
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Post by: Warhams-77
Confirmations of the content of the Codex: KD is probably a week away when we will get first leaks. Archibald_TK has posted a bit more what is shown in the upcoming WD. The Lord of Skulls has a good chance of being in the Codex
Archibald_TK on Warseer
Ok guys, I know very few of what was written in that thread so spare me if it's redundant info but regarding the WD:
- The BT profiles in it are not from the Codex, they are for those who want to use them in a regular CD army. As such the rewards they have access are those from the CD Codex. So there may be slight differences in term of rules with those in the Khorne Codex.
- Someone asked about the Lord of Skulls I think? It is present multiple time in the WD, they even show its box so it's safe to assume it's in the codex.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
So do we know yet if these BT variants can be summoned using posession?
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Post by: XT-1984
It has been said that only the 'stock' Whip and Axe Bloodthirster can be summoned.
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Post by: luke1705
That hasn't been confirmed, but it is the most conservative approach. The issue is going to be this:
If (and it seems like this is nearly confirmed) the three variants of the bloodthirster dataslates replace the bloodthirster entry in codex: CD, then what are you able to summon when you get possession?
One answer says, "the same thing as before. Just the regular thirster, even though it is called something different now"
The other answer, "well a 'regular' bloodthirster no longer exists, since there are three entries for the same unit with essentially just different wargear. You can summon any of the three".
Unless GW clarifies this explicitly, this will be ambiguous at best. I have a sneaking feeling that they will do nothing to clarify it and we will get to house rule. Oh joy
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Post by: Lord Yayula
 luke1705 wrote:That hasn't been confirmed, but it is the most conservative approach. The issue is going to be this:
If (and it seems like this is nearly confirmed) the three variants of the bloodthirster dataslates replace the bloodthirster entry in codex: CD, then what are you able to summon when you get possession?
One answer says, "the same thing as before. Just the regular thirster, even though it is called something different now"
The other answer, "well a 'regular' bloodthirster no longer exists, since there are three entries for the same unit with essentially just different wargear. You can summon any of the three".
Unless GW clarifies this explicitly, this will be ambiguous at best. I have a sneaking feeling that they will do nothing to clarify it and we will get to house rule. Oh joy
I missed whatever said that they replaced the current Bloodthirster as an entry, from what I've seen and read it looks like only extra entries, leaving the Bloodthister as an entry un Codex Daemons even thou it is exactly the same as the 250 pts one
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Post by: pretre
I believe these three are in addition to the base one.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
So it says summon a "Bloodthirster"
Currently there is one entry thats just "Bloodthirster" but the rest contain "Bloodthirster" in their names.
Is the "Bloodthirster" in the Posession rule a general "Bloodthirster" or the specific"Bloodthirster"?
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Post by: Azreal13
I believe this is a topic for YMDC once the book has landed and proven to lack clarification.
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Post by: WrentheFaceless
Yea sounds like a YMDC type of thread
The formation comming out of it sounds interesting though, apparently. A free bloodthirster for 8 of those Blood Tithe points, and points generating from units killed or your own units being destroyed
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Post by: krazynadechukr
Never mind then!
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Post by: Azreal13
Anything in those links that isn't already in this thread?
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Post by: Wayniac
Didn't look like it. Just the pics that we've seen.
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Post by: Hollismason
I can't wait to see the rules for this and combine it with the Khorne themed Renegades list that has the rule that allows you to lay down blast templates even in CC and over your own units.
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Post by: GoliothOnline
That Str D Bloodthirster is awful.... Why on earth would they give str D to a MC if hes going to be utterly useless when trying to utilize it?
Wraithknights will kill you before you get to strike, Knights will kill you before you get to strike + stomps. I just dont get it... What's it's purpose if not to distract bad players with "Str D is on the board" at the cost of an HQ slot and 275 + points?
Its killing Karnifexes I guess.... Maybe....GW Rules Writers, once again Im disappointed.
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Post by: DarknessEternal
That is extremely unlikely.
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Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis
 GoliothOnline wrote:That Str D Bloodthirster is awful.... Why on earth would they give str D to a MC if hes going to be utterly useless when trying to utilize it?
Wraithknights will kill you before you get to strike, Knights will kill you before you get to strike + stomps. I just dont get it... What's it's purpose if not to distract bad players with " Str D is on the board" at the cost of an HQ slot and 275 + points?
Its killing Karnifexes I guess.... Maybe.... GW Rules Writers, once again Im disappointed.
In what universe does a wraithknight stand a chance against a Bloodthirster, even at I1?
For Feth's Sake, people...
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Post by: PlaguelordHobbyServices
No new Zerker Models..
Why Khorne? Why?!
Have I not shed enough Blood for the Blood God!?
[banging head on table]
At least I can mix the bits with the Chaos Marines to make better looking zerkers, just wish they'd at least include new backpacks for them or something...
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Post by: Warhams-77
I really like this cover
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Post by: gigasnail
sure would be nice if the rules were as good as the artwork.
...sometimes, i like to dream, too.
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Post by: zachwho
Man that cover is amazing
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Post by: Delakar
Paying through the teeth for a new codex for every army combination that they can think up, with a newly reboxed bundle army, is getting too much.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
 gigasnail wrote:sure would be nice if the rules were as good as the artwork.
...sometimes, i like to dream, too.
Or even just the title...
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Post by: prowla
Not very evil, though. I see a spiky armour, a flaky axe and a pair of pretty blue eyes.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Yup
After that last battle the champion spend the night crying
All that time being a favourite of Khorne and Tzeench sneeks in a boon and turns his sinister red glowing eyes a pretty blue
sob, the indignity
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Post by: angelofvengeance
Has a bit of the plastic Aspiring Champion model vibe to it with the axe there.
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Post by: Tsilber
Models look great, alleged rules Look great. Price point looks great.
I'll be adding it in to my collection!
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Post by: Wayniac
Tsilber wrote: Models look great, alleged rules Look great. Price point looks great. I'll be adding it in to my collection!
Price point looks good as long as you don't add anything else :( For the boxed set I mean. So tempting but like every other time, when I factor in the other stuff I would want to add it becomes like "HOW MUCH?!"
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Post by: Lord Yayula
Its a reference to the Khorne Chaos Lord that seems went out of production after a few months. I guess it's time to paint mine. Same axe with a daemon face on it.
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Post by: ImAGeek
That cover is incredible. I do feel like I'd rather spend £30 on a nice framed copy of that than the codex though haha.
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Post by: Azreal13
 ImAGeek wrote:That cover is incredible. I do feel like I'd rather spend £30 on a nice framed copy of that than the codex though haha.
I sure GW would much rather sell you that for £30 too.
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Post by: ClassicCarraway
For those thinking that the Strength D axe bearing BT can just be given an Axe of Khorne and strike at initiative, think again. The rules for Colossal state, "A model with this weapon Piles In and fights at Initiative step 1."
Just having the weapon makes you strike at I1, so no way get around it. It makes sense, as allowing the work-around makes it too good. Still, color me slightly disappointed...
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Post by: Lord Yayula
 ClassicCarraway wrote:For those thinking that the Strength D axe bearing BT can just be given an Axe of Khorne and strike at initiative, think again. The rules for Colossal state, "A model with this weapon Piles In and fights at Initiative step 1."
Just having the weapon makes you strike at I1, so no way get around it. It makes sense, as allowing the work-around makes it too good. Still, color me slightly disappointed...
This is the same for many weapons out there and still goes on with the discussion the lastest are some weapons on the Harlequin codex, the general consensus however is that is you attack with that weapon you get those rules if you don't then no penalty/buff is applied. Would be the same as having the khorne axe that gives you rampage, but attacking with the KB one, so that you get more attacks with KB.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/633677.page
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Post by: JuniorRS13
cover looks modeled after tattersoul. Seeing as he has what looks to be a combo-melta on his back and the axe looking the same. looks awesome though. still wish that there was new models...
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Post by: ClassicCarraway
Lord Yayula wrote: ClassicCarraway wrote:For those thinking that the Strength D axe bearing BT can just be given an Axe of Khorne and strike at initiative, think again. The rules for Colossal state, "A model with this weapon Piles In and fights at Initiative step 1."
Just having the weapon makes you strike at I1, so no way get around it. It makes sense, as allowing the work-around makes it too good. Still, color me slightly disappointed...
This is the same for many weapons out there and still goes on with the discussion the lastest are some weapons on the Harlequin codex, the general consensus however is that is you attack with that weapon you get those rules if you don't then no penalty/buff is applied. Would be the same as having the khorne axe that gives you rampage, but attacking with the KB one, so that you get more attacks with KB.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/633677.page
I'm not sure I follow the confusion. There is a difference between special rules that specify attacks/wounds with a weapon versus rules that involve just having the weapon. For example, the Blade of Blood has the Bloodlust special rule, which clearly states "The bearer of the Blade of Blood has the Rampage special rule", so just having it gives Rampage, no need to actually use it. Whereas the Axe of Khorne special rule Decapitating Blow specifically references To Wound rolls made with that weapon. In that scenario, you can have both weapons, actually use the Axe, and gain the Special Rule effects of both. Same with the axe with the Colossal rule, you can use the Axe of Khorne but you still are effected by the Colossal rule from the other weapon, since the special rule is dependent solely on merely having the weapon, not using it.
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Post by: Azreal13
Pre orders up..
Roaring, blood-soaked butchers with an endless thirst for murder, the warriors of Khorne’s Daemonkin carve a red swathe across the galaxy. These are the Blood God’s faithful: zealots who worship Khorne’s Bloodthirsters as divine beings and who will pay any price to see them and their Daemon legions unleashed upon realspace.
This 120-page hardback Codex details the forces of the Khorne Daemonkin –warbands of Khornate Chaos Space Marines who summon Daemons of Khorne to fight with them in the mortal universe. This book includes:
- Blood for the Blood God - detailing the background of Khorne’s infernal legions and their fighting structure, the history of 6 specific Daemonkin warbands, their colour schemes and iconography. A timeline of key events since the end of the Horus Heresy and background of all of the unit types that form the Daemonkin.
- Warriors of Khorne - a showcase of beautifully painted Khorne miniatures.
- Forces of the Daemonkin – detachment rules that enable you to create a battle-forged army, datasheets for all the characters and unit types in the Codex, including the Lord of Skulls and five formation datasheets for fielding specific combinations of miniatures.
- Also included are army special rules, new warlord traits, the Bloodtithe table, 6 tactical objectives and wargear specifically for Khorne Daemonkin.
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Post by: Nocturnus
Hmmm... I see the resin Herald Of Khorne. I guess seeing is believing....
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Post by: Wayniac
Sigh. Part of me really wants to buy this. The more sane part of me looks at the prices and bad rules and smacks the other part of me. $230 for a box with a good number of things is cool, but then I figure out how much I'll need to make it good/playable, and says I should just focus on Warmachine like I have the past two years.
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Post by: Lord Yayula
Lord of Skulls rules are up
https://itunes.apple.com/book/codex-khorne-daemonkin-enhanced/id978030010?ls=1&mt=1110lqaZ
and by the looks on the chaos bikers, looks like they stayed the same point cost but added forecufully the MoK (duh), so probably every single unit from the CSM will have the same treatment. Also the champion may have an axe of khorne for 30 pts? is it the same as the codex daemons? if so... damn, 30 pts for an AP2 KB weapon on a mere champion? Automatically Appended Next Post: Looks like it is completely the same, with only the addition of the rules Daemon of Khorne and Blood for the Blood God!, which is kinda of what was expected
20983
Post by: Ratius
Am I reading these guys stats right? They are armor save 3+?
Hmmm, guess they fell into the Nid MCs bucket when Gw wrote that rule.
How can a riptide or terminator have a better save then them? #confused
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Post by: 455_PWR
Wow,
The limited edition book looks freaking awesome! A monotone cover of the original book, a cover with a bloodcrusher, and a kharn the betrayer cover?
I have really backed away from limited edition codex books as of recent months, but count me in on this one!
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Post by: ClockworkZion
 Ratius wrote:Am I reading these guys stats right? They are armor save 3+?
Hmmm, guess they fell into the Nid MCs bucket when Gw wrote that rule.
How can a riptide or terminator have a better save then them? #confused
Because the only armor Daemons get (which is a Daemonic Gift) is a 3+?
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Post by: ImAGeek
 ClockworkZion wrote: Ratius wrote:Am I reading these guys stats right? They are armor save 3+?
Hmmm, guess they fell into the Nid MCs bucket when Gw wrote that rule.
How can a riptide or terminator have a better save then them? #confused
Because the only armor Daemons get (which is a Daemonic Gift) is a 3+?
Apart from the 6+ on Bloodletters.
45133
Post by: ClockworkZion
ImAGeek wrote: ClockworkZion wrote: Ratius wrote:Am I reading these guys stats right? They are armor save 3+?
Hmmm, guess they fell into the Nid MCs bucket when Gw wrote that rule.
How can a riptide or terminator have a better save then them? #confused
Because the only armor Daemons get (which is a Daemonic Gift) is a 3+?
Apart from the 6+ on Bloodletters.
Forgot about that, but the point remains, they have the best armor save Daemons can get.
20983
Post by: Ratius
Yeah forgot about that, my bad.
39502
Post by: Slayer le boucher
Lord Yayula wrote:Lord of Skulls rules are up
https://itunes.apple.com/book/codex-khorne-daemonkin-enhanced/id978030010?ls=1&mt=1110lqaZ
and by the looks on the chaos bikers, looks like they stayed the same point cost but added forecufully the MoK (duh), so probably every single unit from the CSM will have the same treatment. Also the champion may have an axe of khorne for 30 pts? is it the same as the codex daemons? if so... damn, 30 pts for an AP2 KB weapon on a mere champion?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Looks like it is completely the same, with only the addition of the rules Daemon of Khorne and Blood for the Blood God!, which is kinda of what was expected
Wait so they cost the same points has before, but the MoK is free?, or is it allready counted in their points?
Also the Asp Champ has the Axe of Khorne from the Deamon codex?, thats awesome!!
Allready pre ordered mine SKulltaker edition book, never bought a LE book or anything really from GW, but this one i can't possibly pass.
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Post by: tydrace
 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Wait so they cost the same points has before, but the MoK is free?, or is it allready counted in their points?.
Already counted in the points as they're two points more expensive than in Codex CSM.
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Post by: Lord Yayula
Slayer le boucher wrote: Lord Yayula wrote:Lord of Skulls rules are up
https://itunes.apple.com/book/codex-khorne-daemonkin-enhanced/id978030010?ls=1&mt=1110lqaZ
and by the looks on the chaos bikers, looks like they stayed the same point cost but added forecufully the MoK (duh), so probably every single unit from the CSM will have the same treatment. Also the champion may have an axe of khorne for 30 pts? is it the same as the codex daemons? if so... damn, 30 pts for an AP2 KB weapon on a mere champion?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Looks like it is completely the same, with only the addition of the rules Daemon of Khorne and Blood for the Blood God!, which is kinda of what was expected
Wait so they cost the same points has before, but the MoK is free?, or is it allready counted in their points?
Also the Asp Champ has the Axe of Khorne from the Deamon codex?, thats awesome!!
Allready pre ordered mine SKulltaker edition book, never bought a LE book or anything really from GW, but this one i can't possibly pass.
Already in the cost, is exactly the same cost as a CSM biker with MoK in the codex CSM. Buuuuut, they get Blood for the Blood God! rule probably which is the army theme so that they get the benefits from the blood tithe Automatically Appended Next Post: And the champ access to the Axe of Khorne which is expensive for 30 pts, if it wasn't a Specialist Weapon I'd be all over it thou, sadly for 40 pts you'll get only 2 hits, AP2 and with instant death on 6's thou so that is nice, but makes the model really expensive
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Post by: Slayer le boucher
Lord Yayula wrote: Slayer le boucher wrote: Lord Yayula wrote:Lord of Skulls rules are up
https://itunes.apple.com/book/codex-khorne-daemonkin-enhanced/id978030010?ls=1&mt=1110lqaZ
and by the looks on the chaos bikers, looks like they stayed the same point cost but added forecufully the MoK (duh), so probably every single unit from the CSM will have the same treatment. Also the champion may have an axe of khorne for 30 pts? is it the same as the codex daemons? if so... damn, 30 pts for an AP2 KB weapon on a mere champion?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Looks like it is completely the same, with only the addition of the rules Daemon of Khorne and Blood for the Blood God!, which is kinda of what was expected
Wait so they cost the same points has before, but the MoK is free?, or is it allready counted in their points?
Also the Asp Champ has the Axe of Khorne from the Deamon codex?, thats awesome!!
Allready pre ordered mine SKulltaker edition book, never bought a LE book or anything really from GW, but this one i can't possibly pass.
Already in the cost, is exactly the same cost as a CSM biker with MoK in the codex CSM. Buuuuut, they get Blood for the Blood God! rule probably which is the army theme so that they get the benefits from the blood tithe
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the champ access to the Axe of Khorne which is expensive for 30 pts, if it wasn't a Specialist Weapon I'd be all over it thou, sadly for 40 pts you'll get only 2 hits, AP2 and with instant death on 6's thou so that is nice, but makes the model really expensive
Don't forget that an Asp champ with rage its 4 Ap 2 Init 4 Killing Blow Attacks, with Str5 if you get the icon of course.
But i find it really interessting that you can take something that was from the Deamon codex wargear to give it to a Marines.
I mean the Axe on a Bloodletter is nice, but the Bloodletter only has 1-2 Attacks, while in the hands of a CSM the weapon becomes more potent, give the Champ another Specialist weapon for an extra attack like a Lclaw.
Its also a decent way to give a nice weapon to a secondary HQ if you allready have given the Axe of Fury to someone else( i do hope that the Axe is also in this codex or at least something has powerfull) Automatically Appended Next Post: Someone on the French boards pointed out that on the units/kits list on the GW site in the Khorne deamonkin section you don't find Kharn in it.
While you see the Lord, termi Lord, Skulltaker, Herald, DPrinces and JUmp Lord, but no kharn.
Don't tell me that he isn't included in the codex, that would be stupid has hell..., specialy if his portrait is on the darn LE book cover...
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Post by: Lord Yayula
Well there probably won't be an axe of fury, because the relics should be different form the CSM, and sure giving LC and the Axe of Khorne would solve this but that would be 45 pts on a champion.
And, yeah forgot about the Icon, even thou doesn't seem like it is an option anymore at least not on the screenshot from BL, there is a blank with 15 pts which is probably the power weapon, so who knows maybe the icon is still in there Automatically Appended Next Post: Lastest rumors it seems
The main rule of the codex is "Blood for the blood good":
You get "blood points for every unit you destroy and for every unit you are destroyed. Carachters slained in challenges generate blood points as well.
At the beginning of your turn you can spend those blood points (effects lasts till the beginning of your next turn)
1 Adamantium will
2 Rage + Furious Charge
3 Feel no pain
4 +1A
5 Summon 8 bloodletters of 5 Flesh hounds
6 Summon 3 Bloodcrushers or one Skull cannon
7 One carácter becomes a Demon Prince (LD test, if failed becomes a Spawn instead)
8 One character becomes a Bloodthirster (Same as above)
Once you spend a blood points you loose them all. For example if you have 5 and spend 4 for Feel No Pain, the left point is lost.
Artefacts are:
One Axe that you have to count the wounds infflicted with it:
1-2 +1S
3-4 Rampage
5-7 Sx2
8+ Instant Death
Effects are acumulative
One armour that gives you 3+, Feel no Pain and Eternal warrior
One Rune that gives bearer adamantium will, and you can explode it. If so, till your next turn, in a 24" bubble, all pyshic test get perils with any doublé
One Sword that gives you a blood point for every wound
One helmet that gives you fear and any 6 to hit generates an additional attack
One Axe that when bearer dies becomes a Bloodthirster but and the end your turn loses D3 wounds (Only inv saves allowed)
*Axes are AP2 and Unwieldy +1S, the Sword is AP3
There is Detachment similar to the Decurion: The Blood host
Mandatory: Slaughter cult (1 HQ, 2-8 Bezerkers, Bloodletters or Chaos Space Marines in any combination), 1-4 Possessed, 0-2 Spawn units, 0-2 Cultivists
Benefits: Reroll Warlord trait and generates 1 Blood point every turn. When spending blood points you can for free get another bonus with less value than the first one.
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Post by: Lou_Cypher
Get 8 Blood points, grab both Bloodthirster and Daemon Prince Rewards. Sweet.... Shame about the need for Possessed though.
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Post by: Lord Yayula
 Lou_Cypher wrote:Get 8 Blood points, grab both Bloodthirster and Daemon Prince Rewards. Sweet.... Shame about the need for Possessed though.
Meh, not sure about the DP reward, a wingless/gearless DP dies pretty easily gues it is nice for a cultist champion or a gearless tact marine champion
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Post by: nathan2004
They wanna sell those models. And i really hope Kharn is in this book, I mean they just released (in paperback) a book for him from BL.
22093
Post by: Lord Yayula
The remaining formations
Lord of Slaughter: 1 BT
Brazen Onslaught: 1-4 units of Termis, 2-4 units of Bloodcrushers (+1A in CaC if opponent has more models in that combat)
Khorne Bloodstorm: 2-4 units of Raptors, 1-4 units of Warp Talons, 0-1 Helldrake (+1S of HoW attacks)
Gorepack: 2-4 Chaos Bikers, 1-4 Fleshhounds (Fleshhouds get HoW, and Bikers reroll to wound their HoW attacks
Charnel Cohort: 1 HQ (not a BT), 2-8 Bloodletters, 1-4 Fleshhounds, 1-4 Bloodcrushers, 0-4 Skull Cannon (Fear tests with -2LD, if HQ is in reserves may reroll to enter the battle. Other units do not scatter if enter reserves at 6" of the HQ
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Post by: gigasnail
Kind of not exactly inspiring.
22093
Post by: Lord Yayula
 nathan2004 wrote:They wanna sell those models. And i really hope Kharn is in this book, I mean they just released (in paperback) a book for him from BL.
The GW page already has the listing of the units that are in the codex, at least if they have a model.
Kharn isn't on it, neither are the Oblies nor the Mutilators, no Warpsmiths or Chaos Chaplains.
I did note that the hellbrute is on the heavy support section, that is interesting, not really good options on the heavy:
Soulgrinders, Defilers, Helbrutes, Maulerfiends, Shootyfiends, Skull cannon and the Land Raider, no predators or vindis it seems. Automatically Appended Next Post: Nor havocs
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Post by: rollawaythestone
The artifacts and Blood for the Blood God bonuses are quite good. Also being able to mix Daemon and CSM units will open up some strong possibilities. I think this will be a strong book on first glance. Very curious as more information gets released!
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Post by: JuniorRS13
Kharn is my favorite character. Period. he has to be in it.
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Post by: drbored
How could they make this codex without Kharn...?
Unless with the move away from Finecast, they're dropping support for named characters.
Or maybe he'll be part of a Dataslate when new Khorne Berzerkers drop that you can just tack on.
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Post by: Hollismason
Well just off the top of my head
Benefits: Reroll Warlord trait and generates 1 Blood point every turn. When spending blood points you can for free get another bonus with less value than the first one.
This with the Sword is kind of nuts? Do they mean if you spend the points you get another one on that chart for free that's a lesser value like the kind of deal you get at grocery stores with meat sometimes. Buy one get one of a lesser value free.
Cause that's kind of nuts.
61286
Post by: drbored
Hollismason wrote:Well just off the top of my head
Benefits: Reroll Warlord trait and generates 1 Blood point every turn. When spending blood points you can for free get another bonus with less value than the first one.
This with the Sword is kind of nuts? Do they mean if you spend the points you get another one on that chart for free?
Considering the wording, it's a summary, and there's probably a lot more to the rule that will clarify when we have it in our hands.
36
Post by: Moopy
Hah.... e-mail promoting all this had "White Dwarf: New blood-drenched issue!"
Can't wait for the new "White Dwarf: New Sex-drenched issue!" when it's Slaanesh's turn.
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Post by: JuniorRS13
drbored wrote:How could they make this codex without Kharn...?
Unless with the move away from Finecast, they're dropping support for named characters.
Or maybe he'll be part of a Dataslate when new Khorne Berzerkers drop that you can just tack on.
I just checked the web store and he's "temporarily out of stock"
New kharn model? Completely dropped? Coincidence?
I at least hope he's in it at the very least.
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Post by: Hollismason
Yeah maybe it means that you can't summon, but still that's a crazy rule.
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Post by: Sammoth
It's up for Pre Order on the Gamesworkshop website.
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Post by: Lord Yayula
JuniorRS13 wrote:drbored wrote:How could they make this codex without Kharn...?
Unless with the move away from Finecast, they're dropping support for named characters.
Or maybe he'll be part of a Dataslate when new Khorne Berzerkers drop that you can just tack on.
I just checked the web store and he's "temporarily out of stock"
New kharn model? Completely dropped? Coincidence?
I at least hope he's in it at the very least.
If he was in it, even as out stock he should be on the Khorne Daemonkin army section as an option which he isn't.
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Post by: Hollismason
The one that lets you gain a Blood Point a turn, reroll Warlord Trait , and when you spend the Blood Points gain a free special ability.
That's really crazy good.
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Post by: Eldarain
If true it those formations show a lack of understanding of how hard it can be to get some units into melee.
After they gave run+charge to Harlequins that it might herald a change in design of melee centric builds.
The Bikes and Hounds one looks good (As they are fast melee threats)
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Post by: Sammoth
JuniorRS13 wrote:drbored wrote:How could they make this codex without Kharn...?
Unless with the move away from Finecast, they're dropping support for named characters.
Or maybe he'll be part of a Dataslate when new Khorne Berzerkers drop that you can just tack on.
I just checked the web store and he's "temporarily out of stock"
New kharn model? Completely dropped? Coincidence?
I at least hope he's in it at the very least.
It could be people bought it with the new codex.
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Post by: JuniorRS13
Well he's on the cover of the limited edition slipcase so that gives me hope.
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Post by: Hollismason
It would not surprise me that Kharn is not in the codex.
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Post by: deathstalker013
Kharns still there, just seen him on the website.
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Post by: Wolf_in_Human_Shape
Sure, for CSM. Not Daemonkin. But they've been updating/shifting things around, so maybe he'll show up after all.
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Post by: akwing00
Was it mentioned if the daemon rewards were different in the khorne codex?
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Post by: Wolf_in_Human_Shape
Unknown from Codex leaks/rumors at this point, but White Dwarf makes it appear that way. Although, they were using the Daemons codex and discussing the use of Bloodthirsters in a Daemons codex, so it's still up in the air.
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Post by: akwing00
hopefully characters can have access to more than 1 relic. A daemon prince can skip out on the 3+ armor upgrade and take the relic that includes that as one example....if he's even allowed to take it
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Post by: Ratius
If true it those formations show a lack of understanding of how hard it can be to get some units into melee.
After they gave run+charge to Harlequins that it might herald a change in design of melee centric builds.
The Bikes and Hounds one looks good (As they are fast melee threats)
QFT. Im still....really worried about "the big boys" making it into hth. I'll hold out for the full rules pack but....seems like a Tyranid.....shoot, thne "do someat in hth maybe"?
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Post by: Nocturnus
I assume we will need both previous Chaos books to use this one? It would be nice to have it as a complete package, just Khorne stuff. But that's not GW's MO :(
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Post by: drbored
Nocturnus wrote: I assume we will need both previous Chaos books to use this one? It would be nice to have it as a complete package, just Khorne stuff. But that's not GW's MO :(
No, this Codex will work standalone. You won't need the other books to play this one.
Even for GW that would be silly. Having to juggle three books to play one army would be ridiculous.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
If they brought out a book for each of the Chaos Gods, and then fixed the general Chaos Codex (actually, other way around), I could live with the lack of specific Legion rules.
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Post by: Quarterdime
 H.B.M.C. wrote:If they brought out a book for each of the Chaos Gods, and then fixed the general Chaos Codex (actually, other way around), I could live with the lack of specific Legion rules.
....Me too.
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Post by: Joyboozer
I still can't understand why they don't go back to the old realms of chaos style books for chaos.
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Post by: Fayric
If kharne is dropped, it would be strange to keep skulltaker.
And if skulltaker is dropped, it would be strange to call the limited edition "skulltaker edition".
So, I suppose kharne is in there.
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Post by: Wonderwolf
Well, Skarbrand was exiled by Khorne and Kharn is hanging with Abaddon's 13th Crusade in 40K.
Neither would make much sense in a mono-Khorne army in 40K background-wise.
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Post by: Malika2
Hmm, I doubt GW would make any new models for Abaddon or Kharn...unless they'll be riding some sort of Santa related vehicle...
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Post by: zachwho
Man, kharn on a throne of blood or juggernaut would be kinda cool
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Post by: angelofvengeance
 Malika2 wrote:Hmm, I doubt GW would make any new models for Abaddon or Kharn...unless they'll be riding some sort of Santa related vehicle...
Nah. Kharn would still be on foot- just more skulls and maybe a bigger helmet decoration with more wildly swinging chains on his axe arm.
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Post by: changemod
I would be totally up for Kharn the Betrayer in a chariot pulled by six juggernauts, plowing through friend and foe alike.
Anyhow: The replacement mechanism for Bloodthirsters is kinda important. If it's a deep strike, you've tossed away a character for a two turn charge delay with plenty of time to gun it down.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
changemod wrote:I would be totally up for Kharn the Betrayer in a chariot pulled by six juggernauts, plowing through friend and foe alike.
6? The number of Slaanesh? Bloodsphemy!
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Post by: krazynadechukr
I preordered the collectors codex, and the Khorne Daemonkin Warband set.
Has anyone come up with a rough estimate, base points, of this box set? With the current codex? Just curious.
1
19704
Post by: Runic
Kharn is not in the Codex. Him attacking friendlies could potentially cause the the blood points toll to increase way too quickly, when you take into account the formations and wargear + challenge kills giving them already, not to mention an army list tailored for getting them fast.
Next to that, he is the Betrayer. You can however ally him ofc.
And to those people thinking the strength D BT loses to a Knight - they are actually equally likely to maim eachother. The Knight only hits the BT on a 5, and the BT attacks simultaneously with the Knights stomps.
Losing to a Wraithknight? I wonder who did that math.
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Post by: MeanGreenStompa
If Khorne gave Kharn a juggernaut, he'd slaughter it as an offering to Khorne...
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Post by: Warhams-77
Iuchiban, who has the Codex (shows a photo), is answering questions again on Warseer. This is quite a change
Originally Posted by WildWeasel
The rule preventing CD from joining non-CD is Daemonic Instability - it would be pretty major if the units here lack it.
All daemon units have Fearless, instead of Instability.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Originally Posted by 0604854
So can you confirm that daemonic characters can join non daemonic unis (and vice versa) and whether they benefit from locus and other such rules.
Yes to both.
Source: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?406739-Codex-Khorne-Daemonkin/page17
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Post by: akwing00
Warhams-77 wrote:Iuchiban, who has the Codex (shows a photo), is answering questions again on Warseer. This is quite a change
Originally Posted by WildWeasel
The rule preventing CD from joining non-CD is Daemonic Instability - it would be pretty major if the units here lack it.
All daemon units have Fearless, instead of Instability.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Originally Posted by 0604854
So can you confirm that daemonic characters can join non daemonic unis (and vice versa) and whether they benefit from locus and other such rules.
Yes to both.
Source: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?406739-Codex-Khorne-Daemonkin/page17
He also mentioned that Bloodthirsters have access to no upgrades to rewards as apparently there aren't any, although apparently there are loci
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Post by: McGibs
Guess that explains why the new thristers have their rewards 'built in', and all other characters can buy artifacts and weapons. Rewards offer better gear, but are randomized.
At least it seems like you can just buy your herald of khorne armour now. Loci seems to work on CSM units as well, which is sorta cool. Hatred bikers is tempting.
This is shaping up to be a pretty crazy MSU army, if nothing else.
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Post by: JuniorRS13
Pretty dumb I'll have to ally kharn into a khorne army.
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Post by: Chaospling
Also pretty dumb that Mutilators aren't in the army. Has it been confirmed that the Blood Tithe also is paid by allied detachments?
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Post by: Fayric
I agree, as long as you just look at the fight between them and pretend they are not part of a battle.
But you have to consider a BT will be reduced to 1or max 2 wounds by the eldars superior fire power before he even get close to the WK. Heck, a single wave serpent could do the job.
If the BT is chasing a WK around, I would not bet on him even catching his prey before he is shot down.
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Post by: Cyvash
Is there any point to getting the hard copy if all it is are a handful for special rules, formations and artifacts, if everything is just a handful of stuff straight from the csm and daemon codecs? because i'm debating just the digital.
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Post by: Motograter
Youd be better off sticking with allies and getting the csm dex and demon dex. This is a waste of time and money
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Post by: angelofvengeance
Aww.. I love it when people post prejudiced opinions on products that haven't even hit the shelves yet!!
Let's wait for more leakage and more details before we jump to conclusions hmm?
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Post by: Kanluwen
Have you met the internet?
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Post by: Platuan4th
drbored wrote:Even for GW that would be silly. Having to juggle three books to play one army would be ridiculous.
I'd like to point you to Codex: Eye of Terror and the Lost and the Damned army.
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Post by: Nevelon
Platuan4th wrote:drbored wrote:Even for GW that would be silly. Having to juggle three books to play one army would be ridiculous.
I'd like to point you to Codex: Eye of Terror and the Lost and the Damned army.
To be fair, everyone juggled a lot of books back then.
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Post by: zachwho
Yeah you're all right, the superior fire power of the eldar could kill a BT before it got into combat with a WK. Good thing for me I only brought one BT and filled the rest of my points with foot slogging marines with no upgrades....
I mean why would I also take hounds, bikes, grinders, drakes, princes, another BT, or other fast moving threats to help in getting across the table!?
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Post by: JuniorRS13
I'm wondering if the profiles/point costs for each unit are the same from their respective books.
Lowering the base cost of berzerkers etc could make them a more competitive choice along with this blood toll point system.
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Post by: Hollismason
I'm still curious as to the exact mechanics, also the Chaos Lord or a Daemon Prince w/ that Sword that's AP3 but each wound gains a Blood Point is amaze.
The question is going to be how it actually works.
The Formations don't seem to have that great of a bonus for taking them and are kind of "Meh".
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Post by: skkipper
This book isn't for the power gamers it is for people like me who play a pure Khorne army to begin with. I still manage to win about 1/2 my games.
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Post by: Hollismason
Honestly the Decurion Style Blood Host looks excellent, except for the terrible Possessed which is a terrible Tax ugh.
Detachments
There is Detachment similar to the Decurion: The Blood host
Mandatory: Slaughter cult (1 HQ, 2-8 Bezerkers, Bloodletters or Chaos Space Marines in any combination), 1-4 Possessed, 0-2 Spawn units, 0-2 Cultits
Benefits: Reroll Warlord trait and generates 1 Blood point every turn. When spending blood points you can for free get another bonus with less value than the first one.
Then optional:
Lord of Slaughter: 1 BT
Brazen Onslaught: 1-4 units of Termis, 2-4 units of Bloodcrushers (+1A in CaC if opponent has more models in that combat)
Khorne Bloodstorm: 2-4 units of Raptors, 1-4 units of Warp Talons, 0-1 Helldrake (+1S of HoW attacks)
Gorepack: 2-4 Chaos Bikers, 1-4 Fleshhounds (Fleshhouds get HoW, and Bikers reroll to wound their HoW attacks
Charnel Cohort: 1 HQ (not a BT), 2-8 Bloodletters, 1-4 Fleshhounds, 1-4 Bloodcrushers, 0-4 Skull Cannon (Fear tests with -2LD, if HQ is in reserves may reroll to enter the battle. Other units do not scatter if enter reserves at 6" of the HQ
It's a fantastic MSU list.
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Post by: Colpicklejar
Hollismason wrote:I'm still curious as to the exact mechanics, also the Chaos Lord or a Daemon Prince w/ that Sword that's AP3 but each wound gains a Blood Point is amaze.
The question is going to be how it actually works.
The Formations don't seem to have that great of a bonus for taking them and are kind of "Meh".
Where are you even seeing these formations?
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Post by: Hollismason
What I just listed.
Blood Host
HQ : Daemon Prince CC Beast w/ Blood Sword or CC Oriented Biker Chaos Lord
1 Unit of Possessed GROSS
5 Blood Letters
5 Blood Letters
1 Spawn Unit
1 Spawn Unit
Brazen Onslaught
3 Terminators w/ Combimelta
3 Terminators w/ Combi Melta
3 Terminaotrs w/ Combi Melta
3 Terminators w/ Combi Melta
2 Min Blood Crushers
2 Min Blood Crushers
Charnel Cohort
1 HQ , Daemon Prince or CC Chaos Lord on Bike < Not sure if this guy lets all friendly units not Scatter or What?
1 5 Man Blood Letter
1 5 Man Blood Letter
4 Skull Cannons
It really is a amazing MSU army.
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Post by: zachwho
That gore pack looks awesome
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Post by: Slayer le boucher
Something they could have done that would have been of a great help, even greater than anything else i think is to put on the Blood tith chart and option that would cost like 2 or 3 blood points and allow the whole thing to be able to move+run+charge in the same turn.
Now we also only knows 5 of the 9 rumored formations, so lets wait and see, even if i don't think any of those would be great.
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Post by: Hollismason
It's probably just units similar to the Decurion. It's a actually pretty competitive army if it's similar to the Decurion and you can take Multiples of stuff.
I mean seriously
Gorepack: 2-4 Chaos Bikers, 1-4 Fleshhounds (Fleshhouds get HoW, and Bikers reroll to wound their HoW attacks)
Is amazing.
Can you say
Gore Pack 368 Points
3 X 3 2 Melta gun Bikes Squads 1 Flesh Hound
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Post by: luke1705
Yeah I'm quite certain that the Decurion is going to be the new codex format, or something similar to it. They're going to try and push the alternative formations, to the point of excluding all mention of a normal CAD in the Necron codex
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Post by: Hollismason
That Gore Pack Formation is really really good. Yeah I'll pay 384 Points for 12 Bikers that I can give FNP to with 3 Points and they have 8 Melta Guns.
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Post by: Colpicklejar
Can I ask why I see so many lords on bikes and so few lords on juggernauts? they seem cool and good?
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Post by: Hollismason
Games Workshop : Makes a book about Khorne, leaves out the one guy you should have in the book Kharn
Seriously that's just pants on head.
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Post by: JuniorRS13
Hollismason wrote: Games Workshop : Makes a book about Khorne, leaves out the one guy you should have in the book Kharn
Seriously that's just pants on head.
My thoughts as well. He has a model. Why not include him?
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Post by: ClockworkZion
I'm personally assuming nothing about if Kharn is in the book or not because GW has other goofs on the webstore. All the models for the Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave are only under the Inquisition section, but the URL still says "Grey Knights" when you click on their pages.
So yeah, I want to see what the book actually has instead of what I think it has.
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Post by: Kirasu
JuniorRS13 wrote:Hollismason wrote: Games Workshop : Makes a book about Khorne, leaves out the one guy you should have in the book Kharn
Seriously that's just pants on head.
My thoughts as well. He has a model. Why not include him?
Because the book isn't about providing a khorne themed army, it's about selling new khorne models
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
 Kirasu wrote:Because the book isn't about providing a khorne themed army, it's about selling new khorne models
No new models accompany this release, so clearly that isn't the case.
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Post by: Kirasu
I would imagine a new bloodthirster ties into a Khorne release somehow.
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Post by: Fafnir13
Really unhappy to learn the codex is more formation garbage. I hate the decurion and don't want to see that style being the norm.
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Post by: Xyptc
 Fafnir13 wrote:Really unhappy to learn the codex is more formation garbage. I hate the decurion and don't want to see that style being the norm.
You may be out of luck then. In a perverse way, building army lists out of formations can dial down on some of the spam we see at the moment.
For instance I fully expect Hive Tyrants with wings to come with a Gargoyle tax or similar in the future.
Bit of a turnaround from the "use whatever you want" idea in Jervis' pre-7th videos but it's pretty clear that multiple detachments are a bit over the top if there aren't some controls placed on them.
*note that I'm not saying this would fix everything; plenty else needs to be done as well.
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Post by: Therion
Xyptc wrote: Fafnir13 wrote:Really unhappy to learn the codex is more formation garbage. I hate the decurion and don't want to see that style being the norm.
You may be out of luck then. In a perverse way, building army lists out of formations can dial down on some of the spam we see at the moment.
For instance I fully expect Hive Tyrants with wings to come with a Gargoyle tax or similar in the future.
Bit of a turnaround from the "use whatever you want" idea in Jervis' pre-7th videos but it's pretty clear that multiple detachments are a bit over the top if there aren't some controls placed on them.
*note that I'm not saying this would fix everything; plenty else needs to be done as well.
Spot on. Formations are a lot more preferable to CADs in my opinion. They're not only thematical but they're easy to balance. Of course not all formations are created equal and some will undoubtedly be more points efficient while remaining thematical (Destroyer Cult for example has no weak links) but it's still a good thing. I'm not saying CADs should be abandoned but that a combination of the both isn't bad.
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Post by: unmercifulconker
So will I still be able to make a normal army list with the models I have or do I have to stick to the formation guidelines?
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Post by: zachwho
What new models?
89883
Post by: Wonderwolf
Hollismason wrote: Games Workshop : Makes a book about Khorne, leaves out the one guy you should have in the book Kharn
Seriously that's just pants on head.
Because he's a renegade fighting with Abaddon's 13th Crusade? He doesn't fight in mono-Khorne armies in the background. If anything, he should be in the Black Legion supplement.
Similar scenario for Skarbrand.
For people who don't care about the fluff, you can ally him in or go unbound.
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Post by: Rygnan
Everyone's worrying about Kharn and Skarbrand not being in the codex, but no ones mentioned that karanak isn't in the daemonkin army section either. I can understand Kharn or Skarbrand not being in this book, but Karanak not being in it makes no sense whatsoever
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Post by: Fayric
Looking at the White Dwarf, it dont specify how to include the BT in an army (EG, if it replace the old thirster, etc)
It also say its "three exclusive datasheets".
Does this mean the WD is the only way to get the rules for the new thirsters?
Or is the exclusive in regards to the plain old Daemon codex?
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Post by: CalgarsPimpHand
Wonderwolf wrote:Hollismason wrote: Games Workshop : Makes a book about Khorne, leaves out the one guy you should have in the book Kharn
Seriously that's just pants on head.
Because he's a renegade fighting with Abaddon's 13th Crusade? He doesn't fight in mono-Khorne armies in the background. If anything, he should be in the Black Legion supplement.
Similar scenario for Skarbrand.
For people who don't care about the fluff, you can ally him in or go unbound.
Let me ask you, how big exactly do you think Abaddon's Black Legion is? Or the forces marshaled for the Black Crusade, for that matter? In your head is it like Abaddon, Kharn, and 30 marines, and every time you field a Black Legion force in 40k you're fielding the exact sum total of that army? Or is it possible that of the thousands of marines fighting for Abaddon, there might be a force of Khorne worshippers big enough to put on the table as a mono-Khorne army, still be part of the Black Crusade, and include Kharn too?
This kind of logic seriously annoys me, and I think it's this kind of thinking that leads us to never, ever have good Chaos codexes. The fluff armies and the battles they fight are simply enormous, but in spite of GW's best efforts at making the game unplayably large, 40k is still a glorified skirmish game - you're hard pressed to even field a decent sized warband in a normal 40k battle. Yet somehow, because the legions aren't all unified and 100,000 strong anymore, we are simply forbidden from ever having rules that could decently represent a mono-god legion force (or heaven forbid an undivided legion force). This in spite of the fact that I think it's the number one thing most chaos players want to field.
And this is how we may end up with a mono-Khorne codex that fails to include the poster child of Khorne.
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Post by: Brometheus
Hahahaha WOW, you have to buy a box of Possessed if you want to use the Blood Host.
GW got us again
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:This kind of logic seriously annoys me, and I think it's this kind of thinking that leads us to never, ever have good Chaos codexes. The fluff armies and the battles they fight are simply enormous, but in spite of GW's best efforts at making the game unplayably large, 40k is still a glorified skirmish game - you're hard pressed to even field a decent sized warband in a normal 40k battle. Yet somehow, because the legions aren't all unified and 100,000 strong anymore, we are simply forbidden from ever having rules that could decently represent a mono-god legion force (or heaven forbid an undivided legion force). This in spite of the fact that I think it's the number one thing most chaos players want to field.
And this is how we may end up with a mono-Khorne codex that fails to include the poster child of Khorne.
*standing ovation*
Couldn't've said it better.
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Post by: angelofvengeance
Not necessarily a bad thing. My brother uses possessed all the time and they're quite effective! Heck, if you don't like those models, you could always try the Gal Vorbak from Forge World. Excellent models.
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Post by: Wonderwolf
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:Or is it possible that of the thousands of marines fighting for Abaddon, there might be a force of Khorne worshippers big enough to put on the table as a mono-Khorne army, still be part of the Black Crusade, and include Kharn too?
+
Possibly. But its rare enough to be covered by unbound. Because 40K is smaller in scale, you should make an effort to include a non-Khorne unit in any army involving Kharn, precisely because it helps bring the theme and background of the larger battles that cannot be portrayed in 40K into the game at its reduced scale.
If you abuse the fact that 40K armies are smaller in scale than the larger battle "going on around it" to draw a skewed, rather than a representative smaller "sample" from the larger force, you're still not playing it fluffy. You're simply abusing the scale differences to justify your unfluffy army to yourself.
The overarching theme of the Legions are the fact that they are broken. To bring that theme to the battlefield, you don't bring a mono-list. Doing so moves you into the theme of the loyalist forces.
If Chaos would be played as uniform legions, basically "evil" mirror-versions of the unified, uniform loyalist Chapters, they'd serve no purpose in the game.
Of course, they could be large. A Black Legion crusade or some other renegade warband might well include thousands of Khorne worshipers and thousands of Tzeentch worshipers. But to bring that to the table, you'd pick one unit of Khorne worshipers AND one unit of Tzeentch worshipers. If you field an "army" solely from one corner of the black crusade and think it is fluffy, you've failed to grasp the basic ideas and themes that define the CSMs as a faction in the 40K-universe.
If you don't care about fluff and want Abaddon (he also is a champion of Khorne!! Probably more so than Kharn) or Kharn in a mono-Khorne army, unbound has you covered.
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Post by: bubber
Also, isn't this all based on the fact that the Kharn model isn't in the deamonkin segment of the webshop? What if this is just an error?
Has anyone seen the contents page yet?
I'll wait til next Saturday.
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Post by: JuniorRS13
 bubber wrote:Also, isn't this all based on the fact that the Kharn model isn't in the deamonkin segment of the webshop? What if this is just an error?
Has anyone seen the contents page yet?
I'll wait til next Saturday.
Some guy over on warseer posted a pic holding the codex and leaked what units were included. kharn, mutilators, preds, and some others were not.
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Post by: CalgarsPimpHand
Wonderwolf wrote: CalgarsPimpHand wrote:Or is it possible that of the thousands of marines fighting for Abaddon, there might be a force of Khorne worshippers big enough to put on the table as a mono-Khorne army, still be part of the Black Crusade, and include Kharn too?
+
Possibly. But its rare enough to be covered by unbound. Because 40K is smaller in scale, you should make an effort to include a non-Khorne unit in any army involving Kharn, precisely because it helps bring the theme and background of the larger battles that cannot be portrayed in 40K into the game at its reduced scale.
If you abuse the fact that 40K armies are smaller in scale than the larger battle "going on around it" to draw a skewed, rather than a representative smaller "sample" from the larger force, you're still not playing it fluffy. You're simply abusing the scale differences to justify your unfluffy army to yourself.
The overarching theme of the Legions are the fact that they are broken. To bring that theme to the battlefield, you don't bring a mono-list. Doing so moves you into the theme of the loyalist forces.
If Chaos would be played as uniform legions, basically "evil" mirror-versions of the unified, uniform loyalist Chapters, they'd serve no purpose in the game.
Of course, they could be large. A Black Legion crusade or some other renegade warband might well include thousands of Khorne worshipers and thousands of Tzeentch worshipers. But to bring that to the table, you'd pick one unit of Khorne worshipers AND one unit of Tzeentch worshipers. If you field an "army" solely from one corner of the black crusade and think it is fluffy, you've failed to grasp the basic ideas and themes that define the CSMs as a faction in the 40K-universe.
If you don't care about fluff and want Abaddon (he also is a champion of Khorne!! Probably more so than Kharn) or Kharn in a mono-Khorne army, unbound has you covered.
You can play the game however you like, but I feel you couldn't be more wrong. Just literally every sentence in your reply is wrong. Kharn surrounded by 1500 or so points of fellow Khorne worshippers is the opposite of rare, I would say it was the rule rather than the exception. There's nothing, nothing unfluffy about a mono-Khorne force centered around Kharn, or about highlighting a small part of a large force in general when making a 40k army.
40k is inherently going to be about small forces in the grand scheme of things, either a small part of a larger battle, or a small raiding/skirmishing force separated from the main element of an army. There's no getting around that, and likewise there's nothing that says you have to "pick one of everything" to represent units from a broader army around them. That is an insulting idea; it craps on virtually anyone who has ever tried to build a properly themed list, and wholly embraces the Games Workshop "you'll buy one of everything and like it no matter how little sense it makes or how poorly it performs on the battlefield" mentality.
The overarching theme of the Legions are the fact that they are broken. To bring that theme to the battlefield, you don't bring a mono-list. Doing so moves you into the theme of the loyalist forces.
This is such a ridiculous statement that I don't even know what to say. It's indefensible.
Like I was trying to explain, it's that kind of thinking that literally has ruined the chaos codex for several iterations now. "The legions are dead, and clearly it's impossible to get even 40 or 50 of them in one place at one time on a battlefield, so we're going to deny you the option of representing them." This is why we have a rudderless, characterless, toothless arch-enemy, and why 30k sells so well. The fact that you think there's no purpose in representing the remnants of the legions, or even proper mono-god forces, is just sad and misguided as a player, to say nothing of being blatantly and embarrassingly wrong in terms of fluff.
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Post by: master sheol
Khorne codex without Kharn?
GARBAGE!
Thanks GW for making me spare the money for this useless release and for the Khorne demons models too!
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Post by: CalgarsPimpHand
And accidentally quoted myself instead of editing. I swear I've used this website before.
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Post by: Accolade
Could Kharn's absence be connected to the rumors that Finecast is soon to be gone?
Not trying to be tin-foil crazy or anything, but if Finecast is being removed then that's going to knock out a lot of characters, Kharn included. And we all know GW can't just let us have the rules now, no-siree. Now, maybe Kharn will be back in a future CSM book, but it will only be because he got a plastic model.
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Post by: angelofvengeance
master sheol wrote:Khorne codex without Kharn?
GARBAGE!
Thanks GW for making me spare the money for this useless release and for the Khorne demons models too!
Well since he's already in the main Codex, it'd be silly to print his rules twice don't you think? I suspect there will be an allowance for Kharn in there anyways given that HE'S ON THE COVER.
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Post by: Ghaz
 angelofvengeance wrote:master sheol wrote:Khorne codex without Kharn?
GARBAGE!
Thanks GW for making me spare the money for this useless release and for the Khorne demons models too!
Well since he's already in the main Codex, it'd be silly to print his rules twice don't you think? I suspect there will be an allowance for Kharn in there anyways given that HE'S ON THE COVER.
Khorne Daemonkin is a standalone codex. Without being in the codex you would need to take him as an ally.
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Post by: Accolade
But why not just put the rules in there? You're already paying $50 for the book, why not add the rules for one of Khorne's most well-know we champions in. It's all of one page. But I guess I'm not thinking in the mindset of the multiple army book armies...$100+ for just army rules seems to sour with me.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Wonderwolf wrote:The overarching theme of the Legions are the fact that they are broken.
When a billionaire goes broke he's still a millionaire. Same thing applies to the Legions. Rather than thousands upon thousands of Marines those warbands could be five or six hundred strong, easily enough for a monobuild, and easily enough for Kharn to lead them.
If Chapters only 1000 strong get entire Codices then it is simply baffling how multiple warbands that could be hundreds if not thousands in size, spread across the galaxy, somehow can't get their own rules.
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Post by: Iracundus
angelofvengeance wrote:master sheol wrote:Khorne codex without Kharn?
GARBAGE!
Thanks GW for making me spare the money for this useless release and for the Khorne demons models too!
Well since he's already in the main Codex, it'd be silly to print his rules twice don't you think? I suspect there will be an allowance for Kharn in there anyways given that HE'S ON THE COVER.
That's not him. It is just a generic Champion of Khorne.
Kharn has at least one bare arm, the Khornate bunny ears on his helmet, and Gorechild is a chainaxe whereas the cover shows a warped power axe, with distinctive power cabling.
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Post by: Hollismason
It doesn't make any sense to me at all that the most famous Chaos Space Marine of Khorne and of the Berserkers would not be in the codex dedicated to the God he's Fighting for, that and SKull Taker etc.. not being in seems just dumb.
There's just no reason : Like what? Why is he not in the Codex?
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Post by: herpguy
Iracundus wrote: angelofvengeance wrote:master sheol wrote:Khorne codex without Kharn?
GARBAGE!
Thanks GW for making me spare the money for this useless release and for the Khorne demons models too!
Well since he's already in the main Codex, it'd be silly to print his rules twice don't you think? I suspect there will be an allowance for Kharn in there anyways given that HE'S ON THE COVER.
That's not him. It is just a generic Champion of Khorne.
Kharn has at least one bare arm, the Khornate bunny ears on his helmet, and Gorechild is a chainaxe whereas the cover shows a warped power axe, with distinctive power cabling.
He's on a special edition cover.
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Post by: Hollismason
Hahaha, that makes it even better if he's not in the book. Also no Skull Taker either. What the hell.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
From Iuchiban on Warseer (with consolidating of some things by me) :
First proof the person who posted all this has the codex:
The main rule of the codex is "Blood for the blood good":
You get "blood points for every unit you destroy and for every unit you are destroyed. Carachters slained in challenges generate blood points as well.
At the beginning of your turn you can spend those blood points (effects lasts till the beginning of your next turn)
1 Adamantium will
2 Rage + Furious Charge
3 Feel no pain
4 +1A
5 Summon 8 bloodletters of 5 Flesh hounds
6 Summon 3 Bloodcrushers or one Skull cannon
7 One carácter becomes a Demon Prince (LD test, if failed becomes a Spawn instead)
8 One carácter becomes a Bloodthirster (Same as above)
Once you spend a blood points you loose them all. For example if you have 5 and spend 4 for Feel No Pain, the left point is lost.
Addendum: Summoned units don't dissapear unless destroyed
Karn is NOT in the codex but Bezerkers are.
Artefacts are:
One Axe that you have to count the wounds infflicted with it:
1-2 +1S
3-4 Rampage
5-7 Sx2
8+ Instant Death
Effects are acumulative
One armour that gives you 3+, Feel no Pain and Eternal warrior
One Rune that gives bearer adamantium will, and you can explode it. If so, till your next turn, in a 24" bubble, all pyshic test get perils with any doublé
One Sword that gives you a blood point for every wound
One helmet that gives you fear and any 6 to hit generates an additional attack
One Axe that when bearer dies becomes a Bloodthirster but and the end your turn loses D3 wounds (Only inv saves allowed)
Addendums:
Axes are AP2 and Unwieldy +1S, the Sword is AP3
Bloodthirsters can not take these options.
Limit one Artefact per model.
Daemon Princes can take Artefacts.
Is it only units in the Khorne Daemonkin detachment that generate points when they die, or is it any unit in the controlling player's army?
Only the Demonkin units
Juggernauts for Zerkers?
Seriuosly? They can't.
There is Detachment similar to the Decurion: The Blood host
Mandatory: Slaughter cult (1 HQ, 2-8 Bezerkers, Bloodletters or Chaos Space Marines in any combination), 1-4 Possessed, 0-2 Spawn units, 0-2 Cultits
Benefits: Reroll Warlord trait and generates 1 Blood point every turn. When spending blood points you can for free get another bonus with less value than the first one.
Then optional:
Lord of Slaughter: 1 BT
Brazen Onslaught: 1-4 units of Termis, 2-4 units of Bloodcrushers (+1A in CaC if opponent has more models in that combat)
Khorne Bloodstorm: 2-4 units of Raptors, 1-4 units of Warp Talons, 0-1 Helldrake (+1S of HoW attacks)
Gorepack: 2-4 Chaos Bikers, 1-4 Fleshhounds (Fleshhouds get HoW, and Bikers reroll to wound their HoW attacks
Charnel Cohort: 1 HQ (not a BT), 2-8 Bloodletters, 1-4 Fleshhounds, 1-4 Bloodcrushers, 0-4 Skull Cannon (Fear tests with -2LD, if HQ is in reserves may reroll to enter the battle. Other units do not scatter if enter reserves at 6" of the HQ
Warlod traits
1. Warlord and all units at 12" reroll distance to assault
2. Warlord has Zealot
3. Warlord gets +1A
4. After killing and enemy carácter in a challenge, you get 2 Blood points instead of only 1.
5. Warlord gets preferred enemy
6. Warlord automatically passes the LD test if he is chosen for the 7. and 8. of the Blood points table. (Becoming a Daemon Prince or a BT)
RE: Rules changes
Lords of Skulls same
Bloodcrushers same
No modified FOC
Bezerker Champion and Aspiring champions have Access to the Axe of Khorne.
Spawns, possesed and helbrutes are all the same. Only thing is that they all have Mark of Khorne. Fiends are Daemons of Khorne.
There are no rewards for Daemons.
Termis in the codex do have the Mark of Khorne. That's all. The rest of the unit entry is the same.
[Daemons] have access to the loci.
[The Mark of Khorne is] in the point cost, but is not for free. For example a CSM is 15 points
RE: What's in the codex:
Units in the codex are:
HQ: Chaos Lord, Daemon Prince, Herald, Blood Throne, Skulltaker, 3x BT
Troops: Chaos cultists, CSM, Zerkers, Bloodletters
Elite: Possessed, Chaos Termis, Bloodcrushers
FA: Spawns, Rhino, Bikerts, Flesh hounds, Raptors, Talons, Heldrake
HS: Land Raider, Fiends, Defiler, Soul Grinder, Helbrute, Skull cannon
LoW: Lord of Skulls
Zerkers and CSM can take Rhinos
RE: What's different about this versus running a MoK CSM Army allied with Daemons:
The differences are The blood points mechanic and new Artefacts. By the way, I cannot see any rule preventing Daemons IC joining non-Daemon units. The BT are unique as well. The one with the two handed axe attacks with D Strength but at I 1.
Addendum: All daemon units have Fearless, instead of Instability.
So can you confirm that daemonic characters can join non daemonic unis (and vice versa) and whether they benefit from locus and other such rules.
Yes to both.
RE: Heralds in HQ slots:
Only one per HQ option
Looks like the Aspiring Champions having access to the Axe of Khorne is a pretty solid fact:
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Post by: Gitzbitah
Kharne had an entry, but destroyed it before it reached publication.
They'll try again with a dataslate allowing him to lead the Rivers of Blood guard, and sacrifice them to summon daemonkin units to the field. Mysteriously, his new model will include a kitten.
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Post by: Hollismason
I guess those are the only formations? That kind of is weird because the Decurion allowed you to take all units that were in the codex.
Oh well was hoping for a Mauler fiend Soulgrinder / Machines of Khorne formation.
Yeah just reread the description of the codex only 5 formations.
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Post by: Chaospling
Could we possibly expect an update from Forgeworld which will add Decimators with Dedication of Khorne and Blood Slaughterers to the Khorne Daemonkin codex?
Do you guys think it's because Mutilators are "only" 55 points that they aren't included in a "Daemonkin" codex?
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Post by: GiraffeX
Kharn all ready has a dataslate the Butcherhorde so not sure why people are moaning he's not in this book. It's not a World Eaters codex so why would he be in there.
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Post by: Hollismason
Being able to mix Maulerfiends and Soulgrinders in the same Heavy Support along with mixing Chaos Bikes and Flesh Hounds in the Fast Attack is really really really good. I dunno if that's been pointed out.. but this is a legitimate army :
Daemon Prince w/ Blood Sword Thingie
2 x 3 Termicide
2 x Blood Letters
2 to 3 Hel Drakes
3 Mauler Fiends
Gore Pack
4 Bike Squads
4 Flesh hounds
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Post by: Chaospling
@GiraffeX: I don't quite follow the logic of these arguments. Kharn is in the Chaos Space Marines codex because he's a Chaos Space Marine and so this would be the right codex of all the "main" codices. The Khorne Daemonkin codex is a more "narrow" codex in the sense that all the units in this codex has more things in common than the Chaos Daemons codex and Chaos Space Marines codex each - the same thing as the Space Marine Chapters which get their own supplement.
Units in the Khorne Daemonkin codex are somehow connected to Khorne and no other Chaos god and so Kharn the Betrayer would have this in common with the rest of the units in the codex and would thus fit perfectly in.
I thought this was obvious...
Nobody is arguing that it's a World Eaters codex because no daemon of Khorne belongs to the World Eaters and just because a Chaos Space Marine has a Mark of Khorne doesn't mean he belongs to the World Eaters legion - I thought this also were obvious...
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Post by: Hollismason
You come at me with your Kharne should not be part of the codex because he's a World Eater " Logic " and I just wanna throw your figures on the ground.
But yeah I guess it does make a little bit of sense.
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Post by: Deadawake1347
 GiraffeX wrote:Kharn all ready has a dataslate the Butcherhorde so not sure why people are moaning he's not in this book. It's not a World Eaters codex so why would he be in there.
No, it's not a World Eaters codex, it's a followers of Khorne codex, and who is the single most famous Khorne worshiping space marine? KHARN.
That's like creating a Nurgle book without Typhus, but having plague marines in there, or if the Black Legion supplement barred you from using Abadonn because reasons, or if they came out with an Ulthwe specific codex and decided that Eldrad shouldn't be in it.
Kharn is the name you think of when you think of the followers of Khorne in 40K.
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Post by: GiraffeX
Chaospling wrote:@GiraffeX: I don't quite follow the logic of these arguments. Kharn is in the Chaos Space Marines codex because he's a Chaos Space Marine and so this would be the right codex of all the "main" codices. The Khorne Daemonkin codex is a more "narrow" codex in the sense that all the units in this codex has more things in common than the Chaos Daemons codex and Chaos Space Marines codex each - the same thing as the Space Marine Chapters which get their own supplement.
Units in the Khorne Daemonkin codex are somehow connected to Khorne and no other Chaos god and so Kharn the Betrayer would have this in common with the rest of the units in the codex and would thus fit perfectly in.
I thought this was obvious...
Nobody is arguing that it's a World Eaters codex because no daemon of Khorne belongs to the World Eaters and just because a Chaos Space Marine has a Mark of Khorne doesn't mean he belongs to the World Eaters legion - I thought this also were obvious...
Your missing my point.
The Chaos Space Marine codex is a generic codex that contains the building blocks to play whatever Chaos faction that you desire, hence why it has the prominent characters from each of the traitor legions.
Unless there is a specific codex for each of the main traitor legions which I doubt, you will never see one of the named characters in a codex that is not based around said legion.
As I say Kharn already has his own dataslate which fits him perfectly.
Forge World are covering this exact theme with their Horus Heresy books, the named characters stay with their legions.
If Kharn were to be included in a codex it would be a World Eaters supplement, not even a full codex.
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Post by: Chaospling
GiraffeX wrote:Chaospling wrote:@GiraffeX: I don't quite follow the logic of these arguments. Kharn is in the Chaos Space Marines codex because he's a Chaos Space Marine and so this would be the right codex of all the "main" codices. The Khorne Daemonkin codex is a more "narrow" codex in the sense that all the units in this codex has more things in common than the Chaos Daemons codex and Chaos Space Marines codex each - the same thing as the Space Marine Chapters which get their own supplement.
Units in the Khorne Daemonkin codex are somehow connected to Khorne and no other Chaos god and so Kharn the Betrayer would have this in common with the rest of the units in the codex and would thus fit perfectly in.
I thought this was obvious...
Nobody is arguing that it's a World Eaters codex because no daemon of Khorne belongs to the World Eaters and just because a Chaos Space Marine has a Mark of Khorne doesn't mean he belongs to the World Eaters legion - I thought this also were obvious...
Your missing my point.
The Chaos Space Marine codex is a generic codex that contains the building blocks to play whatever Chaos faction that you desire, hence why it has the prominent characters from each of the traitor legions.
Unless there is a specific codex for each of the main traitor legions which I doubt, you will never see one of the named characters in a codex that is not based around said legion.
As I say Kharn already has his own dataslate which fits him perfectly.
Forge World are covering this exact theme with their Horus Heresy books, the named characters stay with their legions.
If Kharn were to be included in a codex it would be a World Eaters supplement, not even a full codex.
Yes we agree on the main Chaos Space Marines codex but a World Eaters codex would have units which have theme/aspect "World Eaters" in common and so Kharn would be in such a codex. Codex: Khorne Daemonkin have Khorne in common and so Obliterators and Mutilators with the Mark of Khorne (like Warp Talons) should be in such a codex like Kharn should be, not because he's a World Eater but because he has the Mark of Khorne... Why do you think he should only be in a legion specific codex and not a god specific or campaign specific codex?
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Post by: drbored
GiraffeX wrote:
The Chaos Space Marine codex is a generic codex that contains the building blocks to play whatever Chaos faction that you desire, hence why it has the prominent characters from each of the traitor legions.
I laughed really hard when I read this line.
Really hard. Tears were falling down my face for reasons.
Lost all credibility there, bud.
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Post by: prowla
Hollismason wrote:It doesn't make any sense to me at all that the most famous Chaos Space Marine of Khorne and of the Berserkers would not be in the codex dedicated to the God he's Fighting for, that and SKull Taker etc.. not being in seems just dumb.
There's just no reason : Like what? Why is he not in the Codex?
Maybe the reason is called Supplement: Eater of Worlds..
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Post by: Wonderwolf
Chaospling wrote:Why do you think he should only be in a legion specific codex and not a god specific or campaign specific codex?
Why do you think a Daemonkin Codex needs to include every singly thing ever released with a relation to Khorne?
Not everything with a Mark of Khorne must be a good fit for a Khorne Daemonkin-themed codex. Abaddon and Skarbrand the Exiled One (nomen est omen) seem to be the most obvious examples, but I think it was smart to keep Kharn out of it too.
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Post by: Hollismason
drbored wrote: GiraffeX wrote:
The Chaos Space Marine codex is a generic codex that contains the building blocks to play whatever Chaos faction that you desire, hence why it has the prominent characters from each of the traitor legions.
I laughed really hard when I read this line.
Really hard. Tears were falling down my face for reasons.
Lost all credibility there, bud.
That's exactly what the Chaos Codex is , the supplements are the specific legion. The Chaos Codex is just "Walgreen brand".
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Post by: Sammoth
GiraffeX wrote:Kharn all ready has a dataslate the Butcherhorde so not sure why people are moaning he's not in this book. It's not a World Eaters codex so why would he be in there.
I couldn't agree more.
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Post by: Chaospling
Wonderwolf wrote:Chaospling wrote:Why do you think he should only be in a legion specific codex and not a god specific or campaign specific codex?
Why do you think a Daemonkin Codex needs to include every singly thing ever released with a relation to Khorne?
Not everything with a Mark of Khorne must be a good fit for a Khorne Daemonkin-themed codex. Abaddon and Skarbrand the Exiled One (nomen est omen) seem to be the most obvious examples, but I think it was smart to keep Kharn out of it too.
Agreed, not all are and that's why I haven't argued for Abaddon and Skarbrand, but the argument: "Kharn is not in a Khorne-flavoured codex because he's a World Eaters legionnaire" doesn't make sense to me.
What's your arguments for Mutilators and Obliterators not being in the codex? I can't come up with a reason for Mutilators... Obliterators are more shooty but Khorne aren't strictly against ranged weapons and as GW has seen it's okay with the background, that Obliterators can have the Mark of Khorne plus they're possessed or another way around are daemons, I just can't see why they're not in...
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Post by: Wonderwolf
Chaospling wrote:
What's your arguments for Mutilators and Obliterators not being in the codex? I can't come up with a reason for Mutilators... Obliterators are more shooty but Khorne aren't strictly against ranged weapons and as GW has seen it's okay with the background, that Obliterators can have the Mark of Khorne plus they're possessed or another way around are daemons, I just can't see why they're not in...
Why is there an assumption that X should be in there? If you didn't argue for Abaddon or Skarbrand, you seem to agree that some robotic, thoughtless auto-include of everything "Khorne" isn't the way to go, no?
They put things in there that they saw fit. If they hadn't put Bloodletters in, so what? Where is it written that anything and everything Khorne-related must, must, must, must, must be in this Daemonkin Codex?
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Post by: GiraffeX
Chaospling wrote: Codex: Khorne Daemonkin have Khorne in common and so Obliterators and Mutilators with the Mark of Khorne (like Warp Talons) should be in such a codex like Kharn should be, not because he's a World Eater but because he has the Mark of Khorne... Why do you think he should only be in a legion specific codex and not a god specific or campaign specific codex?
So from your theory everything with the Mark of Khorne should be in this book, does that include Abaddon because his left buttock has the Mark of Khorne?
drbored wrote: GiraffeX wrote:
The Chaos Space Marine codex is a generic codex that contains the building blocks to play whatever Chaos faction that you desire, hence why it has the prominent characters from each of the traitor legions.
I laughed really hard when I read this line.
Really hard. Tears were falling down my face for reasons.
Lost all credibility there, bud.
yeah I know tell me about it, if we actually had a good codex to start with it would help matters. I've not played my CSM army since it came out
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Post by: Ravenous D
So its basically a reprint of the Chaos dex without the other cult units.
So they are reprinting the codex 4 times then likely updating the generic one? Seems like its being handled rather sloppily instead of just making a monster Chaos dex that properly represents the legions.
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Post by: Azreal13
Not 4 times no, there's not going to be a Nurgle Cult or Tzeentch Coven book, this is fundamentally Codex: Buy Our Shiny New Bloodthirster.
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Post by: Chaospling
Wonderwolf wrote:Chaospling wrote:
What's your arguments for Mutilators and Obliterators not being in the codex? I can't come up with a reason for Mutilators... Obliterators are more shooty but Khorne aren't strictly against ranged weapons and as GW has seen it's okay with the background, that Obliterators can have the Mark of Khorne plus they're possessed or another way around are daemons, I just can't see why they're not in...
Why is there an assumption that X should be in there? If you didn't argue for Abaddon or Skarbrand, you seem to agree that some robotic, thoughtless auto-include of everything "Khorne" isn't the way to go, no?
They put things in there that they saw fit. If they hadn't put Bloodletters in, so what? Where is it written that anything and everything Khorne-related must, must, must, must, must be in this Daemonkin Codex?
Because that's what I see the units in the codex all have in common. This is not crusade for me - I'm listening to you guys... Don't you see the codex: Khorne Daemonkin as a codex which contain units which somehow are connected to Khorne? I'm just curious as to why leave some units out. I could imagine that Mutilators don't even sell that well (though this don't have to be the case at all of course) but my guess is that GW will not change the base rules and points costs and so these will be too easy to get Blood points for - fine so rule out Obliterators because they don't smell like close combat units but Mutilators are quite over-costed (according to some, not all - I guess) so this would be a way to drive up sales and get us to use them.
Abaddon also have "contact" to the other gods so I can see why he's not in, but I guess I would have thought Skarbrand also would be in it. I don't think I would call it "everything Khorne" as I wouldn't include Abaddon myself but it's close... Everything else in the codex is forced to take the Mark of Khorne... It's based around Khorne...
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Post by: Azreal13
Wonderwolf wrote:Chaospling wrote:
What's your arguments for Mutilators and Obliterators not being in the codex? I can't come up with a reason for Mutilators... Obliterators are more shooty but Khorne aren't strictly against ranged weapons and as GW has seen it's okay with the background, that Obliterators can have the Mark of Khorne plus they're possessed or another way around are daemons, I just can't see why they're not in...
Why is there an assumption that X should be in there? If you didn't argue for Abaddon or Skarbrand, you seem to agree that some robotic, thoughtless auto-include of everything "Khorne" isn't the way to go, no?
They put things in there that they saw fit. If they hadn't put Bloodletters in, so what? Where is it written that anything and everything Khorne-related must, must, must, must, must be in this Daemonkin Codex?
Where is it written it shouldn't? Lousy argument is lousy. There is a lot more logic to expecting some key and iconic Khorne units being included in a Khorne focused codex than there is in arguing that they shouldn't be in it cause reasons.
I mean, the fact you seem to be arguing that GW did leave them out because of some far reaching vision, and not because the design studio resembles an ant's nest that's just been introduced to a boiling kettle is already pretty tenuous.
This is just looking like yet another item to toss in the "great idea, but they found a way to feth it up rather than be awesome" pile.
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Post by: Wonderwolf
Chaospling wrote:
Because that's what I see the units in the codex all have in common. This is not crusade for me - I'm listening to you guys... Don't you see the codex: Khorne Daemonkin as a codex which contain units which somehow are connected to Khorne? .
No. How about you read the fluff?
These are the Blood God’s faithful: zealots who worship Khorne’s Bloodthirsters as divine beings and who will pay any price to see them and their Daemon legions unleashed upon realspace.
These are "religious" worshipers of Khorne and his Greater Daemons, who wage war with a very explicit goal... to summon Daemons into realspace.
If you're looking for a legion-fit, it definitely has a very strong Word Bearers-vibe there, something like the Sanctified.
But "worshiping" Chaos Gods isn't a World Eater or Angron thing, certainly not a Kharn-thing or an Abaddon thing. Likewise, entering realspace on the bidding of crazed worshipers in religious ecstasy isn't something Karanak would do. Nothing Skarbrand could do, in all likelhood.
I find the choice of which units are included and not included in this Codex to be masterfully done. It certainly shows a far better understanding of the World Eaters' background than that possessed by 99% of all "World Eater-fans" on Dakka, it appears.
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Post by: Hollismason
Actually since this is a full blown codex it allying with Chaos Daemons or Chaos SPace Marines is also very viable. I will again say this army is viable.
Like again you get the best units - Obliterators :( from each Dex in one ally chart.
1 HQ which can be a Daemon Prince / Chaos Lord / or Herald
1 Troop which can be a cheap 60 point Cultist unit
1 Fast Attack which can be a Heldrake or biker Squad
and then
1 H. Support which can be a Soul Grinder / Mauler fiend , but why is it great? Because previously without ally you couldn't make a list with 2 Mauler Fiends and 2 Soul Grinders and 2 Hel Drakes w/ 2 Biker Squad.
That's pretty great. Again this codex actually buffs CSM because of the options. It's more variety, more troop types, better fast attack. Look at the A+ units that are in this codex, the elite section's the only section that's very light.
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Post by: Azreal13
Wonderwolf wrote:
I find the choice of which units are included and not included in this Codex to be masterfully done. It certainly shows a far better understanding of the World Eaters' background than that possessed by 99% of all "World Eater-fans" on Dakka, it appears.
Ok dude, now you be trolling, no?
"Masterfully done" would have stretched your already tenuous position to breaking point, but then to wilfully misrepresent everyone else's point of view simultaneously is quite transcendent.
You do seem to have some strong ideas about 40K and GW though, perhaps you should blog about it?
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Post by: Chaospling
@Wonderwolf: Ah yes the sentence you quoted makes a difference to me - I haven't read it before. A shame you couldn't control your feelings and instead had to use such a tone though; as I said this wasn't a crusade for me, I just wasn't persuaded by the "It's not a World Eater codex"- argument.
Should the quote, in your opinion, also explain why Mutilators and Obliterators aren't included in the codex?
Edit: By the way, I know Skarbrand has been exiled by Khorne but wouldn't he still be in a position in which cultists and the like would worship?
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Post by: Wonderwolf
Chaospling wrote:@Wonderwolf: Ah yes the sentence you quoted makes a difference to me - I haven't read it before. A shame you couldn't control your feelings and instead had to use such a tone though; as I said this wasn't a crusade for me, I just wasn't persuaded by the "It's not a World Eater codex"- argument.
Should the quote, in your opinion, also explain why Mutilators and Obliterators aren't included in the codex?
Probably. I wouldn't have used any "Dark Mechanicum"-type units, personally (outside them being Battle Brother-allies). Admittedly, they did include Maulerfiends, Helldrakes, etc.. by the looks of it. If anything, those may possibly be units included because sales are mightier than the fluff. Ultimately we need to wait and read the Codex, I suppose.
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Post by: DarkStarSabre
H.B.M.C. wrote:Wonderwolf wrote:The overarching theme of the Legions are the fact that they are broken.
When a billionaire goes broke he's still a millionaire. Same thing applies to the Legions. Rather than thousands upon thousands of Marines those warbands could be five or six hundred strong, easily enough for a monobuild, and easily enough for Kharn to lead them.
If Chapters only 1000 strong get entire Codices then it is simply baffling how multiple warbands that could be hundreds if not thousands in size, spread across the galaxy, somehow can't get their own rules.
Not only chapters getting their own Codices.
Companies. Sentinels of Terra, Clan Raukaan and Champions of Fenris are supplements dedicated to a single company of their respective chapters. We're only now getting one of four major codices that Chaos should have had fairly early on at least - dedicated to the four powers. But even then, it's widely believed this is just to ride on the back of the Bloodthirster release and boy can I believe it seeing as we're still getting offered the same old Berserkers and Marines and not even a new upgrade kit or something.
It seems that ever since 3.5 Chaos just isn't going to get a break.
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Post by: Hollismason
It also looks grim in terms of Chaos General Codexes because if they made this codex then if they make a Chaos Space Marine Codex within the next few months then this codex is going to feel outdated.
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Post by: GiraffeX
The Gorepack: 2-4 Chaos Bikers, 1-4 Fleshhounds, looks like it would be fun and then I remembered that Fleshhounds are in Finecast.
Epic fail, where's our plastic Fleshhounds GW???
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Post by: Slaanesh-Devotee
There are no Chosen.
I find that weird.
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Post by: Hollismason
Fleshhounds are pretty easily modeled or gotten elsewhere. I forget where I got mine but their just like daemonic looking dogs that I put some spikes on the collars of.
People are surprised when I tell them their not actual GW Flesh Hounds. They're plastic and were super cheap. I'll try and figure where I got em.
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Post by: Azreal13
Yeah, me too now you mention it.
Chosen with beaucoup melee options but perhaps fewer/zero special weapon and heavy weapon slots would have been cool and fluffy, if not especially scary.
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Post by: herpguy
It is pretty ridiculous to say that Kharn doesn't have a right to be in this book because of fluff reasons, when you can have two chapter masters leading a single company of marines from a supplement.
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Post by: Ravenous D
Azreal13 wrote:Not 4 times no, there's not going to be a Nurgle Cult or Tzeentch Coven book, this is fundamentally Codex: Buy Our Shiny New Bloodthirster.
Well until there is a new plastic greater daemon for the other gods anyway.
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Post by: unmercifulconker
Only just realised the zerkers in the WD are on those slightly bigger bases aren't they?
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Post by: rollawaythestone
Yeah. This is likely a small opportunity to spread around the new 30mm bases to CSM and Daemons. The new Khorne Daemonkin box has them all on 30mm.
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Post by: Slayer le boucher
Wonderwolf wrote:
But "worshiping" Chaos Gods isn't a World Eater or Angron thing, certainly not a Kharn-thing or an Abaddon thing. Likewise, entering realspace on the bidding of crazed worshipers in religious ecstasy isn't something Karanak would do. Nothing Skarbrand could do, in all likelhood.
I find the choice of which units are included and not included in this Codex to be masterfully done. It certainly shows a far better understanding of the World Eaters' background than that possessed by 99% of all "World Eater-fans" on Dakka, it appears.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaa...hahahahahahahahahaha
Oh god thats funny has hell...
The only period where Angron and WE wern't worshiping Khorne is in the beginning, where they din't care for it, and only a fraction of it, since in the Eater of Worlds novel, its is made pretty OBVIOUS that there is more WE that openly worship Khorne then the opposite.
kharn isn't really convinced about it and the other Captains that accompagny him are like" dunno dude, seems weird and gak", and that mentallity quickly goes down the drain after Skallathrax...
So yeah, tell us all about how we know gak about our fluff.
THEY KILL, so THEY WORSHIP Khorne, its has simple has that, anything else is stupid and louzy
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Post by: AtlasTelamon
Whoops... there doesn't seem to be anything here.
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Post by: Hive City Dweller
 Sillycybin wrote:rollawaythestone wrote:
Yeah. This is likely a small opportunity to spread around the new 30mm bases to CSM and Daemons. The new Khorne Daemonkin box has them all on 30mm.
I don't understand why GW has chosen of all things, to try and change things up by changing the base sizes 2mm.
I hope this doesn't turn out to be all that chaos gets this year.... a supplement book that can basically already be done with the existing codices.
There are a lot of units that could use a new plastic kit.
I do have to admit that they look much better on the bigger 32mm bases. Looks like this confirms all power armor forces will have the bigger bases now.
I know what you're saying though, it would be so good to have an updated CSM box, or terminators box. Even if I don't play Chaos I'd get a set just to paint if they're anything like the Dark Vengeance set! 
I'd like to ask current Chaos players: Do you think this codex will be any more competitive than standard CSM + allies?
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Post by: Ignatius
Read through the whole "no Kharn" debate and was on the fence what to think. Then I opened my Games Workshop app on my ipad and read all the cool paragraphs about the codex and what it should be. The story right under the one pictured below says:
"This brand new Codex unites all the followers of the Blood God, mortal and daemonic, within one book, complete with rules that make them more powerful the more death and destruction they cause"
Still good at this point.
Then I come to this story, telling me all about Kharn and how he is the symbol of Khorne and all that jazz. Now I can't figure out the reasoning behind not including him. They flat out say he's pretty much the epitome of Khorne worship, which Daemonkin is supposed to be all about.
1
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Post by: Accolade
 Ignatius wrote:Read through the whole "no Kharn" debate and was on the fence what to think. Then I opened my Games Workshop app on my ipad and read all the cool paragraphs about the codex and what it should be. The story right under the one pictured below says:
"This brand new Codex unites all the followers of the Blood God, mortal and daemonic, within one book, complete with rules that make them more powerful the more death and destruction they cause"
Still good at this point.
Then I come to this story, telling me all about Kharn and how he is the symbol of Khorne and all that jazz. Now I can't figure out the reasoning behind not including him. They flat out say he's pretty much the epitome of Khorne worship, which Daemonkin is supposed to be all about.
The reason Kharn wasn't included I doubt had anything to do with rules or army composition (one of GW's lowest levels of focus) and everything to do with models. GW probably has plans to replace Kharn at some point, especially if they are cutting out FineCast. Kharn is already Direct-Only, so if the cutting of FineCast does happen, there will be a period of no GW model available (note I mean GW model, GW doesn't have any interest in whether FW produces it or not). This leaves GW with a couple of months of "vulnerability" to third party companies, so it's better to not have the rules in there and be safe.
These decisions are made only with business in mind.
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Post by: PlaguelordHobbyServices
 Accolade wrote: Ignatius wrote:Read through the whole "no Kharn" debate and was on the fence what to think. Then I opened my Games Workshop app on my ipad and read all the cool paragraphs about the codex and what it should be. The story right under the one pictured below says:
"This brand new Codex unites all the followers of the Blood God, mortal and daemonic, within one book, complete with rules that make them more powerful the more death and destruction they cause"
Still good at this point.
Then I come to this story, telling me all about Kharn and how he is the symbol of Khorne and all that jazz. Now I can't figure out the reasoning behind not including him. They flat out say he's pretty much the epitome of Khorne worship, which Daemonkin is supposed to be all about.
The reason Kharn wasn't included I doubt had anything to do with rules or army composition (one of GW's lowest levels of focus) and everything to do with models. GW probably has plans to replace Kharn at some point, especially if they are cutting out FineCast. Kharn is already Direct-Only, so if the cutting of FineCast does happen, there will be a period of no GW model available (note I mean GW model, GW doesn't have any interest in whether FW produces it or not). This leaves GW with a couple of months of "vulnerability" to third party companies, so it's better to not have the rules in there and be safe.
These decisions are made only with business in mind.
The problem with that theory/idea is that releasing an unfinished codex, as it were, leaves them vulnerable to less people buying it too. If it was complete with Kharn, Skulltaker, etc, it'd likely sell a lot more, plus, this is no excuse considering they're still producing the crapcast Herald of Khorne model and it's STILL a unit entry in the book. They still have finecast model entries, so why not Kharn and SKulltaker?
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Post by: DarkStarSabre
PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote: Accolade wrote: Ignatius wrote:Read through the whole "no Kharn" debate and was on the fence what to think. Then I opened my Games Workshop app on my ipad and read all the cool paragraphs about the codex and what it should be. The story right under the one pictured below says:
"This brand new Codex unites all the followers of the Blood God, mortal and daemonic, within one book, complete with rules that make them more powerful the more death and destruction they cause"
Still good at this point.
Then I come to this story, telling me all about Kharn and how he is the symbol of Khorne and all that jazz. Now I can't figure out the reasoning behind not including him. They flat out say he's pretty much the epitome of Khorne worship, which Daemonkin is supposed to be all about.
The reason Kharn wasn't included I doubt had anything to do with rules or army composition (one of GW's lowest levels of focus) and everything to do with models. GW probably has plans to replace Kharn at some point, especially if they are cutting out FineCast. Kharn is already Direct-Only, so if the cutting of FineCast does happen, there will be a period of no GW model available (note I mean GW model, GW doesn't have any interest in whether FW produces it or not). This leaves GW with a couple of months of "vulnerability" to third party companies, so it's better to not have the rules in there and be safe.
These decisions are made only with business in mind.
The problem with that theory/idea is that releasing an unfinished codex, as it were, leaves them vulnerable to less people buying it too. If it was complete with Kharn, Skulltaker, etc, it'd likely sell a lot more, plus, this is no excuse considering they're still producing the crapcast Herald of Khorne model and it's STILL a unit entry in the book. They still have finecast model entries, so why not Kharn and SKulltaker?
You can make a Herald from the Skull Cannon kit for the record.
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Post by: Accolade
The focus is short-term profits.
Besides that, why would you stop buying? You're loyal to GW aren't you? They make the best miniatures in the world, and their rules are the best fluff money can buy.
If you don't think this is GW's mindset, go read their commentary from the GW vs CHS case. They very clearly state this idea as their perception of their customers. There is no risk of loss of sales on these minor inconveniences. Worst comes to worst, they lose some non-loyal customers, and the others can make up for it.
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Post by: adamsouza
And I would like to think they are delusional about it, but then they double the price of the Blood Thirster kit and people still buy them up like hot cakes.
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Post by: Accolade
Yeah, I mean it seems to be working. Someone is buying those $150-$300 limited edition books, and if GW can lower its production and infrastructure to sell to a small group of die-hards with money to burn, then more power to them. I just think it's going to have a significantly deleterious effect on the game of 40k, but I suppose the game is secondary to GW at this point.
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Post by: herpguy
The saddest thing about this codex is that it seems of the three troop options, bloodletters are actually the best.
70 pt min squads of cultists or 85 pt min squads of CSMs are just ridiculously expensive for what you get.
I am likely going to use a CAD with Kharn and 6 squads of unmarked cultists, but I am still waiting to hear what the allies matrix is. Automatically Appended Next Post:  adamsouza wrote:And I would like to think they are delusional about it, but then they double the price of the Blood Thirster kit and people still buy them up like hot cakes.
^That still boggles my mind.
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Post by: changemod
They also tripled the mass of the Bloodthirster kit, to be fair.
The ridiculous part is that this codex is trying to encourage you to buy something like three of them though.
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Post by: thraxdown
PlaguelordHobbyServices wrote: Accolade wrote: Ignatius wrote:Read through the whole "no Kharn" debate and was on the fence what to think. Then I opened my Games Workshop app on my ipad and read all the cool paragraphs about the codex and what it should be. The story right under the one pictured below says:
"This brand new Codex unites all the followers of the Blood God, mortal and daemonic, within one book, complete with rules that make them more powerful the more death and destruction they cause"
Still good at this point.
Then I come to this story, telling me all about Kharn and how he is the symbol of Khorne and all that jazz. Now I can't figure out the reasoning behind not including him. They flat out say he's pretty much the epitome of Khorne worship, which Daemonkin is supposed to be all about.
The reason Kharn wasn't included I doubt had anything to do with rules or army composition (one of GW's lowest levels of focus) and everything to do with models. GW probably has plans to replace Kharn at some point, especially if they are cutting out FineCast. Kharn is already Direct-Only, so if the cutting of FineCast does happen, there will be a period of no GW model available (note I mean GW model, GW doesn't have any interest in whether FW produces it or not). This leaves GW with a couple of months of "vulnerability" to third party companies, so it's better to not have the rules in there and be safe.
These decisions are made only with business in mind.
The problem with that theory/idea is that releasing an unfinished codex, as it were, leaves them vulnerable to less people buying it too. If it was complete with Kharn, Skulltaker, etc, it'd likely sell a lot more, plus, this is no excuse considering they're still producing the crapcast Herald of Khorne model and it's STILL a unit entry in the book. They still have finecast model entries, so why not Kharn and SKulltaker?
The problem with that theory is khârn still exists in the chaos space marine codrx, which is still current.
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Post by: Accolade
Go read my comments. This thought was based on the rumors that Finecast is nearing being discontinued. The CSM book was released two years ago, and they aren't going to go actually take something out of that book.
Now, I think that Kharn will return in the CSM book again, but it will only be if he gets a new plastic model (ala Asmodai in the Dark Angels army). There will be other Chaos HQs that disappear, the same way that the armies that have come before have been tampered with (any GW doesn't feel like making in plastic).
Because a new CSM book would still be some time out (one could reason the Finecast thing would happen during this time), Kharn simply was excluded from the Khorne Daemonkind book. Which seems incredibly silly considering he's the poster boy of Khorne.
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Post by: adamsouza
changemod wrote:They also tripled the mass of the Bloodthirster kit, to be fair.
Does anyone have a size comparison pic between the old and new ?
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Post by: ClockworkZion
 herpguy wrote:It is pretty ridiculous to say that Kharn doesn't have a right to be in this book because of fluff reasons, when you can have two chapter masters leading a single company of marines from a supplement.
Clearly the Chapter Master and the person he's grooming to be his replacement. 
Or with Iron Hands each of those is a Clan Leader.
Though there is a Chapter of Marines who keeps 2 Chapter Masters (though which one it is escapes me right now).
Who knows, maybe the Finecast rumor will affect Kharn and he's going away until he gets a new model?
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Post by: MLaw
I remember when the Chaos Codex had everything in it. Running a D Stature Demon Prince with a Thirster and a bunch of champs with Burning Blood and Talismans. Aspiring Champion or Chaos Lord on a Juggernaut.. yeah.. that was a real thing. Sorry but Geedub pissed in my cheerios with their direction on Chaos a long time ago. Them throwing out a supplement to let Chaos do something it should be able to do in the first place is just more grubby money grabbing.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
Not a supplement MLaw, a complete separate codex.
Which makes me wonder what will be happening to Chaos. Perhaps if this works the CSM book will split into a book for each god and an Undivided book?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Instead of a combined CSM book I mean. Perhaps a split up of the Daemons too.
Dunno. Just tossing out speculation.
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Post by: drbored
Again.
Unless they are *phasing out named characters*.
When was the last time a Named Character was created...? Dark Eldar Codex of 5th edition?
I have a strange feeling that moving forward we're not going to see new named characters in any further Codices... in favor of plastic generic characters you can customize and call whatever you want.
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Post by: Lobokai
So besides Belakor, Cypher, and all the starter specials?
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Post by: ClockworkZion
drbored wrote:Again.
Unless they are *phasing out named characters*.
When was the last time a Named Character was created...? Dark Eldar Codex of 5th edition?
I have a strange feeling that moving forward we're not going to see new named characters in any further Codices... in favor of plastic generic characters you can customize and call whatever you want.
5th edition had several (Grey Knights had characters for instance), but not all got models, and then in 6th and 7th those without models have slowly been removed.
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Post by: Hollismason
There's no way there's a Chaos Codex in the next 6 months, it'd completely invalidate this book. So i think this is what we're going to get and that from here on out this is it.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
I can't see them phasing out named characters.
Then again Codex: Harlequins exists and Adeptus Mechanicus are getting a Codex in a fortnight, so what the hell do I know?
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Post by: DarkStarSabre
 Lobukia wrote:So besides Belakor, Cypher, and all the starter specials?
Cypher's existed since 2nd edition. Be'lakor cropped up in 6th ed. Warhammer and was imported across to 40k.
Also, with regards to the phasing out SCs that don't have a model?
Warhammer Armies: Dark Elves would like a word. They've still got 2 characters who have never have official models. It's really haphazard as to what they keep and what they drop.
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Post by: Turalon
 DarkStarSabre wrote: Lobukia wrote:So besides Belakor, Cypher, and all the starter specials?
Cypher's existed since 2nd edition. Be'lakor cropped up in 6th ed. Warhammer and was imported across to 40k.
Also, with regards to the phasing out SCs that don't have a model?
Warhammer Armies: Dark Elves would like a word. They've still got 2 characters who have never have official models. It's really haphazard as to what they keep and what they drop.
But those characters die in the end times, so they have basically been phased out.
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Post by: drbored
Yeah. Actually, I'll correct myself, yes there are the characters that are in the starter sets (that don't have rules in their respective Codices I'll point out, and are certainly generic enough to use as whatever in their appropriate Codices), but the last character to get a model was Nork Deddog, and he was part of the Ogryn box.
The Harlequin HQ's are all pretty 'faceless' (hah) and the latest Dark Eldar book saw a significant drop in special characters that didn't have models.
I wouldn't be surprised if the new Admech Codex didn't have any named characters at all... I could be wrong, but it'll be telling one way or the other.
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Post by: Hollismason
I dunno maybe the rumours in regard to Finecast are true.
82507
Post by: thraxdown
What about skarr bloodwrath?
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Post by: Slayer le boucher
adamsouza wrote:changemod wrote:They also tripled the mass of the Bloodthirster kit, to be fair.
Does anyone have a size comparison pic between the old and new ?
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Post by: adamsouza
Thanks for the pic. Do you happen to know who makes that mammoth sized model on the far right ?
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Post by: DarkStarSabre
adamsouza wrote:Thanks for the pic. Do you happen to know who makes that mammoth sized model on the far right ?
Forge World.
Both for the Bloodthirster and what is behind it. (That would be a Toad Dragon.)
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Post by: aka_mythos
H.B.M.C. wrote:I can't see them phasing out named characters.
Then again Codex: Harlequins exists and Adeptus Mechanicus are getting a Codex in a fortnight, so what the hell do I know?
I don't think they're doing away with special characters, I just they're still trying to figure out the best way to produce them in a post-finecast world. With FW coming under the GW webstore, pushing a greater accessibility and familiarity with resin that even if GW proper designs and sculpts special characters that FW's casting capabilities are utilized to produce them. GW I think has learned from FW by realizing it can appeal to veteran players to hit premium price points... I hope GW can follow how FW has approached its Horus Heresy character series and thus produce special characters in that higher quality semi-game/semi-display format.
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Post by: dan2026
Huh I actually prefer the GW Bloodthirster to the FW one.
Not very often that happens.
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Post by: changemod
Interesting, the new Bloodthirster, if modelled with the flame thing to stand on, os the same height and roughly the same footprint as Anggrath, despite much narrower shoulders.
That's nice. No reason to waste money on a big resin Bloodthirster for apocalypse games then. Just make it clear which one is playing counts as if there's more than one on the table.
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Post by: xera32
Its hard to tell in that pic, but the FW bloodthirster is still much much bigger than GW's. Around 30% taller and twice as wide with wings around twice as big.
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Post by: Pete Melvin
Old school baby-bloodthirster is toaty in these days of strong/faster/bigger/we can remake him, make him LOLHEWGE.
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Post by: changemod
xera32 wrote:Its hard to tell in that pic, but the FW bloodthirster is still much much bigger than GW's. Around 30% taller and twice as wide with wings around twice as big.
Remember that wings, tails, banners and weapons don't count for LOS purposes.
Bearing that in mind, the difference is pretty minor. Yeah, he's Hulked out in comparison... But so long as the new Bloodthirster is on his bit of height bumping flame terrain, they appear to be exactly as tall.
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Post by: skkipper
I plan to use my An'ggrath as a normal thirster now since he has been elevated to never field due to demon lord rule.
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Post by: adamsouza
I think GW has something against Greater Daemons ever getting behind LOS blocking terrain smaller than a mountain.
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Post by: bubber
I plan on digging out my 1st Ed Blood Thirster - I will be able to advance behind a Rhino without being seen!!
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Post by: Baragash
ClockworkZion wrote:Though there is a Chapter of Marines who keeps 2 Chapter Masters (though which one it is escapes me right now).
White Consuls (I read about it in the Word Bearer books, don't know if that's the only time it's mentioned).
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Post by: Malika2
Hmm, I wonder how the wings of the FW Bloodthirster would look on GW's new model...
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Post by: Ghaz
drbored wrote:When was the last time a Named Character was created...? Dark Eldar Codex of 5th edition?
Murderfang in the current Codex Space Wolves.
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Post by: DO IT TO IT
 Ghaz wrote:drbored wrote:When was the last time a Named Character was created...? Dark Eldar Codex of 5th edition?
Murderfang in the current Codex Space Wolves.
Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Orks, and Tyranids all got new named characters with models in recent campaign books.
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Post by: Lord Yayula
1 Relic per character sads me, taking the sword or any of the axes on the DP would leave you without Eternal Warrior which is a must against so many MC and Force Weapons out there
On the rest of the units and rules, there is no surprise never thought even for a minute that there would be new model costs/stats only rules on how CD and CSM units interact (DI to fearless)
The lack of a good close combat weapon for a jugger lord saddens me, probably the best option will be an Axe of Khorne which is only 5 points less than the AoBF and it isn't nearly as good.
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Post by: ClockworkZion
 Baragash wrote: ClockworkZion wrote:Though there is a Chapter of Marines who keeps 2 Chapter Masters (though which one it is escapes me right now).
White Consuls (I read about it in the Word Bearer books, don't know if that's the only time it's mentioned).
Thanks! Couldn't remember their name.
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Post by: Fayric
I think the treatment of named characters of late is just part of the current editions trend.
Most new codexes has seen a downscaling in epic rules and power house units.
One might suspect GW figured they could make more money and at the same time evolve the game by focusing on a flood of new fromations and campaigns instead of making epic/silly power dexes.
Named characters are therefore hopelessly unhip right now.
Give it a year or two, and were back in 5th edition epic deathstar mayham.
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Post by: TiamatRoar
Kharn is actually one of the most devout worshippers of Khorne in the entire galaxy. There's a BL story from his perspective where he's killing Slaanesh worshippers and it's VERY clear he worships Khorne like crazy. Even his act of "betrayal" he sees as true Khorne worship in its truest form.
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/The_Wrath_of_Kharn
Also, he no longer just rolls with only World Eaters. He rolls with anyone willing to kill in the name of Khorne as long as it means killing more stuff (including those he's rolling with).
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Post by: Lord Blackscale
I am a little saddend by the lak of MoK on termies. Is anyone else missing it?
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Post by: gorgon
I dunno. To me, Kharngate just seems like the designated point of internet outrage for this codex. His exclusion might have been a genuine beef in 5th edition, but in 7th edition...not so much IMO.
Personally, I like a lot of what I've read about this codex and think that I'll explore it someday as a way to use some of my 30K World Eaters minis (once they're completed) in 40K. Could be two armies for the price of 1.5.
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