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Post by: nosferatu1001
Rigeld - we know the unit arrives this turn. That does not mean immediately. So this is still a duration we have to define.
When reserves arrives tells us what to do when they arrive, which we know is this turn - we know nothing more specific than this.
Except do we? We know they move on, and nothing States, in the unites above, that this is outside of the. Movement phase.
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Post by: rigeld2
 BlackTalos wrote:Explaining: you roll as specified, but "then deploy them as follows" would replace "When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below." would it not?
No. It would replace ", moving it onto the table as described below", not "When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it..."
If you replace the entire sentence you have no directive on what to do when Reserves arrive. So, using reading #2 in this manner, you have a unit that has arrived from Reserves but no directive on what that means. That's the consequence to replacing entire sentences instead of just the conflicting part. Automatically Appended Next Post: nosferatu1001 wrote:Rigeld - we know the unit arrives this turn. That does not mean immediately. So this is still a duration we have to define.
When reserves arrives tells us what to do when they arrive, which we know is this turn - we know nothing more specific than this.
Except do we? We know they move on, and nothing States, in the unites above, that this is outside of the. Movement phase.
This is false.
If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn.
What does "arrives this turn" mean in the rules?
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below.
Oh, that's what it means. When they arrive (which is when you've passed the roll) you deploy the unit.
You have no directive nor permission to delay the arrival to another phase.
You have evidence that units arriving from Reserve do so during the Start of Turn (Ongoing Reserves, Turn 4+).
Please show any evidence that units move on from Reserves in the movement phase. None has been offered so far, other than "That's how it works."
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Post by: Captyn_Bob
p162 "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, ... "
92852
Post by: harkequin
you're equating 'arrives' with 'moves onto the board' which is an assumption. 'arrives' can equally mean 'passes its Reserve Role', which is the roll to see if it arrives.
I'm sorry, but this is incorrect, the crux of the argument earlier was that the roll takes place at the start but the reserves arrive in the movement phase.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either arriving is when they are placed on the board, or when they pass their roll. Pick one.
In one case, they always arrive at the start, which is how everyone does it.
In the other sccenario, this only happens at T4, and ongoing reserves, which are apparently, (according to this whole kerfuffle) exceptions to turns, 2 & 3.
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Post by: Captyn_Bob
Now quote a rule that says they do not.
"When reserves arrive" isn't stating what phase they are arriving in.
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Post by: BlackTalos
Wow, talk about getting everyone arguing and confused......
I'm actually second-guessing my position again....., especially with this now: "Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move."
The underlined is creating a timing break where the movement phase could start?
Going to need to think about this some more before a next post......
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Post by: Captyn_Bob
harkequin wrote:
you're equating 'arrives' with 'moves onto the board' which is an assumption. 'arrives' can equally mean 'passes its Reserve Role', which is the roll to see if it arrives.
I'm sorry, but this is incorrect, the crux of the argument earlier was that the roll takes place at the start but the reserves arrive in the movement phase.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either arriving is when they are placed on the board, or when they pass their roll. Pick one.
In one case, they always arrive at the start, which is how everyone does it.
In the other sccenario, this only happens at T4, and ongoing reserves, which are apparently, (according to this whole kerfuffle) exceptions to turns, 2 & 3.
Sorry my language was terrible there. Arrives, will mean deploy onto the board, but " arrives automatically" means that you do not make a Reserve Roll on T4- so it 'arrives automatically'.
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Post by: harkequin
Sorry my language was terrible there. Arrives, will mean deploy onto the board, but " arrives automatically" means that you do not make a Reserve Roll on T4- so it 'arrives automatically'.
No bother man,
The one thing you still run into is that it says " Arrives automatically at the start of the turn." . So, It Arrives (what it does) automatically(how it does it) at the start of the turn(when it does it)
You have to leave out a part of the sentence for it to work any other way.
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Post by: Captyn_Bob
"automatically arrives at the start of the fourth turn", I can see how this can be read two ways, but I don't think you have to leave anything out.
Normally at the start of the turn, you would make a reserve roll. however turn 4, you will not, so it will 'automatically arrive'.
It supports the other interpretation I agree, but not so strongly as to make all deployment moves happen outside of the movement phase.
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Post by: harkequin
The thing is, that this would be fine, But, it doesn't just say, it "arrives automatically". It says , at the start of the turn.
So we already agreed, that arriving = moving onto the table, we are told that it happens automatically on turn 4, and that it happens at the start of the turn.
Nothing gives you permission to arrive it at any other time, It tells you the start of the turn. If it said it automatically passes it's reserve roll at the start of the turn, it would be different.
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Post by: rigeld2
Please actually read the post and understand the argument.
You're misquoting a rule and pretending it's relevant when it's been demonstrated that it is not.
Here are the rules for arriving by Deep Strike:
Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• • First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• • Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.
• • Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.
Please highlight where they are said to arrive during the movement phase.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BlackTalos wrote:Wow, talk about getting everyone arguing and confused......
I'm actually second-guessing my position again....., especially with this now: "Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move."
The underlined is creating a timing break where the movement phase could start?
Going to need to think about this some more before a next post......
Why does it mean anything other than what it says? So you know what arrived before any of it deploys...
That doesn't change anything at all with the argument.
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Post by: Captyn_Bob
harkequin wrote:The thing is, that this would be fine, But, it doesn't just say, it "arrives automatically". It says , at the start of the turn.
So we already agreed, that arriving = moving onto the table, we are told that it happens automatically on turn 4, and that it happens at the start of the turn.
Nothing gives you permission to arrive it at any other time, It tells you the start of the turn. If it said it automatically passes it's reserve roll at the start of the turn, it would be different.
I agree that that interpretation is stronger, but I do not think it is explicitly strong enough to justify applying it to all turns,other than turn 4, and therefore permitting double movement, and invalidating rules in the deep strike section
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Post by: rigeld2
Captyn_Bob wrote:"automatically arrives at the start of the fourth turn", I can see how this can be read two ways, but I don't think you have to leave anything out.
Normally at the start of the turn, you would make a reserve roll. however turn 4, you will not, so it will 'automatically arrive'.
And what happens when a unit arrives from Reserves?
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Post by: Captyn_Bob
I have, and I don't think I am misquoting.
If you want to disregard that text, and have a valid reason to do so, then fine, but don't pretend it doesn't exist.
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Post by: rigeld2
Captyn_Bob wrote:
harkequin wrote:The thing is, that this would be fine, But, it doesn't just say, it "arrives automatically". It says , at the start of the turn.
So we already agreed, that arriving = moving onto the table, we are told that it happens automatically on turn 4, and that it happens at the start of the turn.
Nothing gives you permission to arrive it at any other time, It tells you the start of the turn. If it said it automatically passes it's reserve roll at the start of the turn, it would be different.
I agree that that interpretation is stronger, but I do not think it is explicitly strong enough to justify applying it to all turns,other than turn 4, and therefore permitting double movement, and invalidating rules in the deep strike section
It doesn't permit double movement - interpretation #2 does. It doesn't invalidate anything in the Deep Strike section, at all.
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Post by: Captyn_Bob
Yeah the double move thing is clearly not the rules either way you look at it. Consider it dropped.
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Post by: slamma
harkequin wrote:but why would it be stuck swooping if it can move an extra 24"?
Sorry, I should have been clearer, I thought you were asking how ongoing reserves were relevant, eg. Why does it matter if ongoing reserves happens at the start?
Legally, coming on from ongoing reserves , it may not move any further, It is the way, it has been, and is played.
Using the argument that Since it arrived during the start of the turn, it may then move normally, in it's movement phase...
This would be a big deal for a lot of players since, Eg. Night scythes, 36"move +24" gun, = 60"threat range, meaning that hammer and anvil deployment(?) the opponent would be safe in the back 12" of his field. If you follow the other arguement, then he has nowhere to hide, because i can double move.
It's just highlighting how people trying to use semantics to suit themselves, will in fact break the game in other places, allowing things like this to happen.
sorry to quote back so far, but this is why i brought up ongoing reserves.
to me it would appear to be the same as the way people are saying the blood tithe works. they both happen before the movement phase. they both have units arriving in swooping mode.
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Post by: Captyn_Bob
True enough, and its useful for constructing a HIWPI interpretation.
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Post by: rigeld2
slamma wrote:sorry to quote back so far, but this is why i brought up ongoing reserves.
to me it would appear to be the same as the way people are saying the blood tithe works. they both happen before the movement phase. they both have units arriving in swooping mode.
Correct. This is a consequence of reading #2 that its defenders refuse to address.
Because, somehow, the BTBT is the only model ever that can enter play at the Start of Turn (despite lots of evidence otherwise).
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Post by: Angrygrot
I spoke to my local judge and he is in agreement the Blood tithe summoned blood thirster should be able to come in swooping, then switch to gliding due to turn order. Food for thought.
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Post by: Lusiphur
A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
So, at the time the rules were created, there were three ways for a FMC to get onto the board.
A) Start of the game deployment = Gliding
B) Regular Reserves = Players choice
C) Deep Strike Reserves = Swooping
Regardless of whether Deep Strike Reserves arrives at the start of the turn or the movement phase, the crux of the issue is that the BTBT wording seems to imply that it doesn't arrive from Deep Strike Reserves but simply uses Deep Strike. This creates the problem that the BTBT wording doesn't fit into the other two options for a FMC starting mode either. In which case it looks like we simply have a broken rule and it creates a HYWPI situation of deciding which of the three choices you and your group thinks fits best.
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Post by: Captyn_Bob
The crux of one of the problems certainly.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm pretty happy with it arriving swooping, its the only sensible precedent.
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Post by: FlingitNow
Angrygrot wrote:I spoke to my local judge and he is in agreement the Blood tithe summoned blood thirster should be able to come in swooping, then switch to gliding due to turn order. Food for thought.
So he thinks everything that Deepstrikes can do so too? Or has he not bothered to read the rules? My advice in either case is to not go to this guy for rules advice in future and direct him to this thread and this forum where he can learn about the rules.
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Post by: Khaine's Wrath
I think it depends on who you're playing. I have discussed this very issue with all of the people I play. I like to be transparent as I'm only interested in having some fun. I have presented both sides of the argument to my friends and every single one of them is happy he can charge the turn after he is summoned. We all agree this was the intention of summoning such a unit.
This thread is going back and forth and getting no where. It's clearly not as clear as people are stating otherwise it wouldn't be an 11 page debate. So until it is FAQ'd, (if it is ever) then it's probably best to just discuss it with your opponent/gaming group/TO.
To be fair, I joined dakka with the intention of brushing up on competitive techniques to possibly begin to play tournaments. A day or two on YMDC and it definitely puts me of the tournament scene.
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Post by: FlingitNow
 Khaine's Wrath wrote:I think it depends on who you're playing. I have discussed this very issue with all of the people I play. I like to be transparent as I'm only interested in having some fun. I have presented both sides of the argument to my friends and every single one of them is happy he can charge the turn after he is summoned. We all agree this was the intention of summoning such a unit.
This thread is going back and forth and getting no where. It's clearly not as clear as people are stating otherwise it wouldn't be an 11 page debate. So until it is FAQ'd, (if it is ever) then it's probably best to just discuss it with your opponent/gaming group/ TO.
To be fair, I joined dakka with the intention of brushing up on competitive techniques to possibly begin to play tournaments. A day or two on YMDC and it definitely puts me of the tournament scene.
So do you and your friends think the same of a DSing FMC? Do you allow all units that arrive from to move twice?
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Post by: Khaine's Wrath
Firstly, I don't see how they are being allowed to move twice. If it comes in from deep strike it cannot move. That rule we all know. Although changing flight modes happens in the movement phase, it isn't a move.
Secondly, although coming in via deep strike, the unit isn't coming in from reserve. So the way it works as per the blood tithe summon is in fact inherently different from a unit purposefully placed in reserve.
Now those two points will likely be decimated with people sat in front of rule books picking out specific sentences and words to suit and defend their own arguments. I'm at work and unfortunately don't have that luxury. But ignoring all specifics and semantics for a moment, it simply doesn't make sense that the writter intended for a predominantly combat orientated unit to arrive as per a summoning from the blood tithe table, and not be able to assault until it's third turn on the board. Why would that ever make sense? How could that ever be a logical intent?
You are suggesting that they have released a book that is clearly designed to boost the sales of the chaos units that are currently under performing in the sales department. And then present you with some promise with a specific rule set for those models, only to then snatch away any sort of competitive edge that rule set is giving you.
It makes sense that the new bloodthirster or winged daemon Prince turns up and must take at least one turn of full shooting from an opponent. That at least gives the opponent a chance. But considering the unit is likely to turn up turn 2 or 3...i doubt very much they meant for a 250 point bloodthirster to be summoned in order to be absolutely useless and have no bearing on the game. Otherwise it is utterly pointless saving your tithe points for the summoning.
Having played with this army for a few games now, and played with my friends and our interpretation of the rules (which were backed up by our local GW for what it's worth... I know not a great deal) the way we play it makes more sense. I am yet to win. But they at least have an affect.
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Post by: Angrygrot
 FlingitNow wrote:Angrygrot 641693prull wrote:I spoke to my local judge and he is in agreement the Blood tithe summoned blood thirster should be able to come in swooping, then switch to gliding due to turn order. Food for thought.
So he thinks everything that Deepstrikes can do so too? Or has he not bothered to read the rules? My advice in either case is to not go to this guy for rules advice in future and direct him to this thread and this forum where he can learn about the rules.
Woah easy bud. I was just trying to contribute to the conversation. The judge in my area is pretty knowledge and I'd trust his interpretations over my own (I make mistakes...often)
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Post by: FlingitNow
Now those two points will likely be decimated with people sat in front of rule books picking out specific sentences and words to suit and defend their own arguments. I'm at work and unfortunately don't have that luxury. But ignoring all specifics and semantics for a moment, it simply doesn't make sense that the writter intended for a predominantly combat orientated unit to arrive as per a summoning from the blood tithe table, and not be able to assault until it's third turn on the board. Why would that ever make sense? How could that ever be a logical intent?
Why would that intent argument not work for Bloodthirsters summoned using Malefic?
It makes sense that the new bloodthirster or winged daemon Prince turns up and must take at least one turn of full shooting from an opponent. That at least gives the opponent a chance. But considering the unit is likely to turn up turn 2 or 3...i doubt very much they meant for a 250 point bloodthirster to be summoned in order to be absolutely useless and have no bearing on the game. Otherwise it is utterly pointless saving your tithe points for the summoning.
It is not a 250 point model it is a free model. Pretty much the entire codex is geared towards not saving BT points. They give you the option to take a DP without wings and an axe that contains 2 Bloodthirsters. Again I don't see why you think this works differently to any normal DS? There is nothing different about it except you want your BT in combat sooner.
Having played with this army for a few games now, and played with my friends and our interpretation of the rules (which were backed up by our local GW for what it's worth... I know not a great deal) the way we play it makes more sense. I am yet to win. But they at least have an affect.
Cool I'm glad you enjoy it and play by a house rule people are happy with.
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Post by: Khaine's Wrath
When using malefic powers your summoning isn't restricted to just a bloodthirster as far as greater daemons go. So it is possible to summon a greater daemon that isn't simply designed for combat. Equally, with enough warp charge on the board you could summon one or two in the first turn. That is basically impossible with daemonkin.
You are right, I do want my bloodthirster in combat sooner. It's what it's designed for and it's what keeps the blood God happy. But that is also part of my point with regards to this thread. The people that want it in sooner will argue one point. The people that don't will argue against it. Thats why I said discuss it. See what your opponent says. Make a decision and play from there. Because until they FAQ it this argument won't be solved.
If I was to get technical to back my argument (again, remember I have no rulebook) I am of the opinion that the blood tithe summoning happens outside of the movement phase and in fact happens before. The movement phase then starts and I choose to glide. It comes with its downside. Ie being shot at with full ballistic skill.
And to your last point, surely that's the whole point in this game. To enjoy ourselves. I am not saying your argument is wrong. Or incorrect. Simply a different interpretation. And if that's how your friends are happy to play it then you're sorted.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And another point to malefic summoning... It happens after the movement phase.
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Post by: Captyn_Bob
Flingitnow
Conventional reserves (which blood tithe is obviously not, having completely different rules) will never allow you to "move twice" as the reserves section clearly states that you deploy all your arriving units , then move your other units. There is no justification at all for a double move argument , and it does seem to be confusing discussion.
Blood tithe is not reserves . It is also not the same as summoning via maelific daemonology , which has different rules, and more importantly happens in the psychic phase , so moving is completely impossible on the turn you arrive.
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Post by: Filch
So is Khorne Daemonkin any good?
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Post by: Captyn_Bob
Oh filch you do make me laugh.
Yeah it's excellent. So good we've spent 12 pages discussing how well written one of it's core mechanics is.
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Post by: Angrygrot
Its very, very powerful. Mixing of daemons with marine squads solves their leadership issues and gives them added special abilities.
Has access to strong units in CSM and Daemons
Powerful artifacts (60 point blood thirster), crazy funny combos (Bloodthirster+daemonprince+another blood thirster via blood tithe and the artifact axe)
And you can summon and hand out fnp like candy.
Don't even get me started on the Gorepack...*licks bloody lips*
It provides a great delivery system for your bloodthirsters and allows them to assault the next turn they are summoned. This is huge. Before they would just be bolter bait.
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Post by: Khaine's Wrath
I can't decide if there is a hint of sarcasm within part of that last post....
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Post by: Tonberry7
Wow another couple of pages of posts already. The only relevance for Reserves is to compare Blood Tithe Bloodthirsters with those that could be arriving from Deep Strike Reserve. We know the the Deep Strike Reserve ones arrive in the movement phase as described in the rules, whereas the Blood Tithe Bloodthirster immediately arrives in the start of the turn phase. The rules are clear on this, and the rules for reserves in general work a lot better when you consider they actually move onto the board at the start of the movement phase. Since the Blood Tithe Bloodthirster is on the table before the movement phase starts, they have the opportunity to change their flight mode at the start of their move. All of the above has been cited and demonstrated in my previous posts if you've followed the thread.
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Post by: Captyn_Bob
My Recap:
The crux of the matter for me, is whether there are any rules, that prevent a FMC arriving via the blood tithe moving in the following movement phase.
The only rule that prevents this movement, is this one:
"In the movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.."
Some people think this should apply, (and it certainly is what we are used to for deep striking units), others don't.
Not having the slightest idea what the author intended, I'm only left with strictest RAW to inform my choice.
As the prerequisite to the restriction is ""In the movement phase during which they arrive" I do not see by RAW how the restriction can apply, as the Blood Tithe units do not arrive in the movement phase.
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Post by: Trasvi
Captyn_Bob wrote:My Recap: .... As the prerequisite to the restriction is ""In the movement phase during which they arrive" I do not see by RAW how the restriction can apply, as the Blood Tithe units do not arrive in the movement phase.
The corollary to this is that other reserves - possibly including all reserves (depending on your reading of the rules) but definitely including Ongoing Reserves and all reserves arriving by any means on turn 4, including via deep strike - will be subject to the same RAW as they arrive before the movement phase, and can thus move (and FMCs may change flight modes if desired). That's not to say that your interpretation isn't correct per se... only that no-one has thought, desired or attempted to play it that way this edition.  Tonberry7 wrote:Wow another couple of pages of posts already. The only relevance for Reserves is to compare Blood Tithe Bloodthirsters with those that could be arriving from Deep Strike Reserve.
The above is why people keep bringing up the rules for reserves even though they're not immediately relevant to Blood Tithe summoning. Interpreting Blood Tithe in a way that allows Bloodthirsters to change flight mode the turn they arrive is in contradiction to the way that everyone plays the game. Again, that doesn't necessarily mean the interpretation is wrong... but it should be a good indication that *something* is wrong.
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Post by: Captyn_Bob
But remember, the reserves section specifies you move arriving units, then all other units, which precludes the arriving units moving again.
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Post by: FlingitNow
Khaine's Wrath wrote:When using malefic powers your summoning isn't restricted to just a bloodthirster as far as greater daemons go. So it is possible to summon a greater daemon that isn't simply designed for combat. Equally, with enough warp charge on the board you could summon one or two in the first turn. That is basically impossible with daemonkin.
You are right, I do want my bloodthirster in combat sooner. It's what it's designed for and it's what keeps the blood God happy. But that is also part of my point with regards to this thread. The people that want it in sooner will argue one point. The people that don't will argue against it. Thats why I said discuss it. See what your opponent says. Make a decision and play from there. Because until they FAQ it this argument won't be solved.
If I was to get technical to back my argument (again, remember I have no rulebook) I am of the opinion that the blood tithe summoning happens outside of the movement phase and in fact happens before. The movement phase then starts and I choose to glide. It comes with its downside. Ie being shot at with full ballistic skill.
And to your last point, surely that's the whole point in this game. To enjoy ourselves. I am not saying your argument is wrong. Or incorrect. Simply a different interpretation. And if that's how your friends are happy to play it then you're sorted.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And another point to malefic summoning... It happens after the movement phase.
I would also love my bloodthirsters to get into combat a turn earlier, just not willing to cheat to win at toy soldiers. My point with Malefic is that your intent argument is just as valid for that and we know it can't possibly be right for that. Also this thread isn't for people telling others about their house rule. Or what people think should be the rules (I think tactical marines should be relentless, Berzerkers should have 2 attacks base, Vespids should be assault 2 etc but I don't write the rules). This thread is to discuss what the actual rules are. In this case they are abundantly clear that you arrive swooping and can't move after that and the swooping lasts until the start of your next turn unless you are grounded. Automatically Appended Next Post: My Recap:
The crux of the matter for me, is whether there are any rules, that prevent a FMC arriving via the blood tithe moving in the following movement phase.
The only rule that prevents this movement, is this one:
"In the movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.."
Some people think this should apply, (and it certainly is what we are used to for deep striking units), others don't.
Not having the slightest idea what the author intended, I'm only left with strictest RAW to inform my choice.
As the prerequisite to the restriction is ""In the movement phase during which they arrive" I do not see by RAW how the restriction can apply, as the Blood Tithe units do not arrive in the movement phase.
So you believe this is true for all Deep striking units? You can't use that rule to say it only applies to more deals that arrive in the movement phase by DS AND that it means that models that arrive by DS do so in the movement phase. You're using 2 contradictory readings of a rule to try to justify your argument which still falls apart when discussing on going reserves and turn 4 reserves...
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Post by: Captyn_Bob
I've presented my opinion on reserves, and won't again, as it has no relevance to the bloodtithe.
The deep strike rules are used on many occasions, not just for reserves, and disregarding them arbitrarily cannot possibly be RAW.
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Post by: FlingitNow
Captyn_Bob wrote:I've presented my opinion on reserves, and won't again, as it has no relevance to the bloodtithe.
The deep strike rules are used on many occasions, not just for reserves, and disregarding them arbitrarily cannot possibly be RAW.
When your argument is based on read a rule 2 contradictory ways at the same time to justify it apply to someone and not to others you're going to have to back that up. When your interpretation means that a rule does nothing in context and never applies then you're going to have to back that up with nothing very concrete.
Anyway it has been clear for many pages now that you're not willing to discuss actual RaW. You want the rules to work a special way for your unit with literally no justification. You want the Blood tithe to be different when it is clearly the same. You're ignoring the rules or changing to mean 2 different wrong things at the same time to justify want you want the rules to be. So why bother discussing further? The rules are clear. Everyone arrives during the start of the turn. BT is not some special flower and there are literally no rules that make it interact with Deep strike in any way differently to a unit arriving via DS reserves. I think we're done here.
You're going to keep claiming BT is special because you arrive during the start of the turn. We're going to keep pointing out everyone arrives during the start of the turn and you're going to continue to ignore that fact.
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Post by: Captyn_Bob
I have nothing more to say. (To you)
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Post by: Tonberry7
FlingitNow wrote:Captyn_Bob wrote:I've presented my opinion on reserves, and won't again, as it has no relevance to the bloodtithe.
The deep strike rules are used on many occasions, not just for reserves, and disregarding them arbitrarily cannot possibly be RAW.
When your argument is based on read a rule 2 contradictory ways at the same time to justify it apply to someone and not to others you're going to have to back that up. When your interpretation means that a rule does nothing in context and never applies then you're going to have to back that up with nothing very concrete.
Anyway it has been clear for many pages now that you're not willing to discuss actual RaW. You want the rules to work a special way for your unit with literally no justification. You want the Blood tithe to be different when it is clearly the same. You're ignoring the rules or changing to mean 2 different wrong things at the same time to justify want you want the rules to be. So why bother discussing further? The rules are clear. Everyone arrives during the start of the turn. BT is not some special flower and there are literally no rules that make it interact with Deep strike in any way differently to a unit arriving via DS reserves. I think we're done here.
You're going to keep claiming BT is special because you arrive during the start of the turn. We're going to keep pointing out everyone arrives during the start of the turn and you're going to continue to ignore that fact.
So, 12 pages in and no consensus reached, a not uncommon scenario in YMDC. Inevitably we're going round in circles at this point, both sides of the argument believe they have proved their case by RAW and think the other side is wrong. There's probably not much more to be gained by reiterating the same arguments. Just be aware that any snarky accusations or insinuations you throw out (cheating, house ruling, HYWPI etc.) Is not only rude but applies equally to yourself in this situation.
81346
Post by: BlackTalos
rigeld2 wrote: BlackTalos wrote:Wow, talk about getting everyone arguing and confused......
I'm actually second-guessing my position again....., especially with this now: "Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move."
The underlined is creating a timing break where the movement phase could start?
Going to need to think about this some more before a next post......
Why does it mean anything other than what it says? So you know what arrived before any of it deploys...
That doesn't change anything at all with the argument.
Okay, so looking at this from a fresh new day and some new posts with views:
BlackTalos wrote:We're stuck on one side reading:
" In the movement phase during which [they arrive] " - Arriving (at any time) has the following restriction "during the movement phase"
And the other convinced:
" [In the movement phase] during which they arrive " - This only ever happens "In the movement phase".
Well, i'd go for the first, while other read the second. Will anyone have RaW support for either?
Or is it maybe down to interpretation of the same rule, so neither side will be "100% correct, mark yours as HYWPI"?
Could we accept both exist and might be correct?
This is still how i'm seeing it. The way the rules are written:
BlackTalos wrote:Arriving by Deep Strike contains instructions for arrival (during Reserves), and then three points:
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from (...).
In that turn’s Shooting phase, these units can fire (or Run, Turbo-boost or move Flat Out) as normal, and count (...)
In that turn’s Assault phase, however, these units cannot charge. This also applies to units that have disembarked from Transports that arrived by Deep Strike that turn.
Clearly, those rules are relevant to those Phases only (and would not apply for the previous paragraph...)
Would seem to point at interpretation #1: The rule about the movement phase is a constant that applies to all Deep Striking Units, not a Rule that enforces arrival during the Movement phase which Blood Tithe then conflicts with... (Version #2)
But if you take Version #2 at face value (with the assumption that the piece of RaW quoted is now forcing all Deep Striking Units to arrive during the movement Phase "only") then i do not see any RaW being broken either...
The only ones that were used for support can be (validly) interpreted as applying to the Reserves Dice rolls (which are definitely not in the movement Phase, for both #1 and #2):
Captyn_Bob wrote:"automatically arrives at the start of the fourth turn", I can see how this can be read two ways, but I don't think you have to leave anything out.
Normally at the start of the turn, you would make a reserve roll. however turn 4, you will not, so it will 'automatically arrive'.
It supports the other interpretation I agree, but not so strongly as to make all deployment moves happen outside of the movement phase.
I might be alone in seeing a difference between "arriving at the start of the Turn" = / = "deploying at the start of the Turn" and how "arriving at the start of the Turn" does not preclude "deploying during the movement phase" which is what Version 2 is doing (Forcing deployment of DSing units to the mvt phase) Automatically Appended Next Post: rigeld2 wrote: BlackTalos wrote:Wow, talk about getting everyone arguing and confused......
I'm actually second-guessing my position again....., especially with this now: "Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move."
The underlined is creating a timing break where the movement phase could start?
Going to need to think about this some more before a next post......
Why does it mean anything other than what it says? So you know what arrived before any of it deploys...
That doesn't change anything at all with the argument.
Sorry, back to replying to this, and why the RaW above was important: It support version #2's basis that (as underlined above) Arriving =/= Deploying.
22508
Post by: FlingitNow
I might be alone in seeing a difference between "arriving at the start of the Turn" = / = "deploying at the start of the Turn" and how "arriving at the start of the Turn" does not preclude "deploying during the movement phase" which is what Version 2 is doing (Forcing deployment of DSing units to the mvt phase)
So arriving does not mean deploying. However all the relevant rules are not concerned with how/when you deploy but how/when you arrive. So this distinction still invalidates version 2, as that was based on a rule making you ARRIVE during the movement phase (not deploy). So I think you have absolutely categorically disproven version 2.
81346
Post by: BlackTalos
FlingitNow wrote: I might be alone in seeing a difference between "arriving at the start of the Turn" = / = "deploying at the start of the Turn" and how "arriving at the start of the Turn" does not preclude "deploying during the movement phase" which is what Version 2 is doing (Forcing deployment of DSing units to the mvt phase)
So arriving does not mean deploying. However all the relevant rules are not concerned with how/when you deploy but how/when you arrive. So this distinction still invalidates version 2, as that was based on a rule making you ARRIVE during the movement phase (not deploy). So I think you have absolutely categorically disproven version 2.
I see what you mean.
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive", per Version #2, would force "arrival", not "deployment", during the movement phase.
"automatically arrives at the start of the fourth turn" cannot then be followed (Rule broken), because it forces "arrival" at the start of the fourth turn, which cannot be the movement phase.
I think we've finally reached the destination lol
22508
Post by: FlingitNow
BlackTalos wrote: FlingitNow wrote: I might be alone in seeing a difference between "arriving at the start of the Turn" = / = "deploying at the start of the Turn" and how "arriving at the start of the Turn" does not preclude "deploying during the movement phase" which is what Version 2 is doing (Forcing deployment of DSing units to the mvt phase)
So arriving does not mean deploying. However all the relevant rules are not concerned with how/when you deploy but how/when you arrive. So this distinction still invalidates version 2, as that was based on a rule making you ARRIVE during the movement phase (not deploy). So I think you have absolutely categorically disproven version 2.
I see what you mean.
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive", per Version #2, would force "arrival", not "deployment", during the movement phase.
"automatically arrives at the start of the fourth turn" cannot then be followed (Rule broken), because it forces "arrival" at the start of the fourth turn, which cannot be the movement phase.
I think we've finally reached the destination lol
Yeah I think we're all there now (whether or not everyone will admit to it).
81346
Post by: BlackTalos
I'd rather let anyone still "on Version #2", that is still in the mind that Blood Tithe summoned Blood Thirsters could change flight mode on arrival, come forward with any arguments after having at least read the above 4 posts.
Now i've got a clearer mind on this i think i can explain why that is not how the RaW can be interpreted. (Rather than "No, you're wrong!" ) 
56924
Post by: Captyn_Bob
BlackTalos wrote: FlingitNow wrote: I might be alone in seeing a difference between "arriving at the start of the Turn" = / = "deploying at the start of the Turn" and how "arriving at the start of the Turn" does not preclude "deploying during the movement phase" which is what Version 2 is doing (Forcing deployment of DSing units to the mvt phase)
So arriving does not mean deploying. However all the relevant rules are not concerned with how/when you deploy but how/when you arrive. So this distinction still invalidates version 2, as that was based on a rule making you ARRIVE during the movement phase (not deploy). So I think you have absolutely categorically disproven version 2.
I see what you mean.
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive", per Version #2, would force "arrival", not "deployment", during the movement phase.
"automatically arrives at the start of the fourth turn" cannot then be followed (Rule broken), because it forces "arrival" at the start of the fourth turn, which cannot be the movement phase.
I think we've finally reached the destination lol
Whichever way you look at it, one statement doesn't make sense. Which is why I believe "automatically arrives at the start of the fourth turn" is referring to the Reserves Roll automatically passing. Which when read in context of the paragraph, males perfect sense.
81346
Post by: BlackTalos
I would also add that i've been thinking of Version #3:
The one where the Start of the Turn (right after the end of the previous Turn) is already the Movement Phase, but then that also means that the BTBT arrives in the movement phase along with every other reserve...
22508
Post by: FlingitNow
Whichever way you look at it, one statement doesn't make sense. Which is why I believe "automatically arrives at the start of the fourth turn" is referring to the Reserves Roll automatically passing. Which when read in context of the paragraph, males perfect sense.
So you at best have arriving =/= arriving and therefore this restriction that has nothing to do with when reserves arrive can be used to make reserves arrive in the movement phase...
56924
Post by: Captyn_Bob
BlackTalos wrote:I would also add that i've been thinking of Version #3:
The one where the Start of the Turn (right after the end of the previous Turn) is already the Movement Phase, but then that also means that the BTBT arrives in the movement phase along with every other reserve...
In general gameplay this would make no difference , however he definition of Start of turn , does state that things that happen at the start of turn occur before the movement phase. I'm sure there are a large number of examples where this is important
81346
Post by: BlackTalos
Captyn_Bob wrote: BlackTalos wrote: FlingitNow wrote: I might be alone in seeing a difference between "arriving at the start of the Turn" = / = "deploying at the start of the Turn" and how "arriving at the start of the Turn" does not preclude "deploying during the movement phase" which is what Version 2 is doing (Forcing deployment of DSing units to the mvt phase)
So arriving does not mean deploying. However all the relevant rules are not concerned with how/when you deploy but how/when you arrive. So this distinction still invalidates version 2, as that was based on a rule making you ARRIVE during the movement phase (not deploy). So I think you have absolutely categorically disproven version 2.
I see what you mean.
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive", per Version #2, would force "arrival", not "deployment", during the movement phase.
"automatically arrives at the start of the fourth turn" cannot then be followed (Rule broken), because it forces "arrival" at the start of the fourth turn, which cannot be the movement phase.
I think we've finally reached the destination lol
Whichever way you look at it, one statement doesn't make sense. Which is why I believe "automatically arrives at the start of the fourth turn" is referring to the Reserves Roll automatically passing. Which when read in context of the paragraph, males perfect sense.
I dunno, Version #1 make complete sense to me, have you read the 3rd quote in my long post above?
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further" applies to any Deep Striking Units arriving (Blood Tithe, Demonic summoning, Deep Strike Reserves...) and the "In the Movement phase" just states when the Rule actually applies (it's not about when the "Deep Striking units" actually arrive)
As for a Version #2, and the rule about Reserves arriving, it must imply the "arrival" of all Deep Striking units is in the movement phase. But "Arriving from Reserve" and "Moving On From Reserve" (Arriving V Deploying) are quite clear. IE in your position even if "If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn." applies only to the Roll being passed, it is still the same "arrival" mentioned in the Deep Strike section.
As opposed to the Deployment refered to in the Deep Strike section (which i'm still considering could be during a movement phase)
So, in the end, a Blood Thirster kept in Reserves would be an exact duplicate (by RaW) to the one summoned by Blood Tithe. You would have to play one how you play the other (allowing flight mode switching and possibly more movement)
56924
Post by: Captyn_Bob
So hypothetically. If a friendly unit arrived by deep strike at the end of the opponents turn , would it equally be unable to move? The same arguments would apply.
81346
Post by: BlackTalos
Captyn_Bob wrote:So hypothetically. If a friendly unit arrived by deep strike at the end of the opponents turn , would it equally be unable to move? The same arguments would apply.
In that Turn's Movement phase, yes, they would be unable to move (3 Phases prior to the actual arrival that would be, though) ED: But the Deep Strike rules clearly assume you do Deployment, followed by a set of restrictions listed (technically coming later), but we are now in the area where these restrictions might be happening before the arrival, such as summoning (Demonic). So the restrictions are in the past.
56924
Post by: Captyn_Bob
So your interpretation is that 'during' should be expanded to 'during the turn'? That does make things a lot neater.
I still can't see why arriving in the same phase makes the blood tithe identical to reserves.
I'm not saying it's the wrong way to play it, but it feels more like a HIWPI argument , than a strict RAW ruling.
Of course I love HIWPI arguments , but anyone making one on this forum seems to get shouted down immediately.
22508
Post by: FlingitNow
I still can't see why arriving in the same phase makes the blood tithe identical to reserves.
So if they arrive at the same time how does Blood Tithe differ from arriving via Deep strike reserves such that a BT summoned FMC can change flight mode and the other can't.
56924
Post by: Captyn_Bob
The arrival of reserves is laid out quite clearly , stating that you move your arriving reserves, and then move your other units.
This inherently precludes deep strikes reserves from moving again. This would include changing flight modes.
The blood tithe has no such clarity.
22508
Post by: FlingitNow
So is there inherent permission to move again in the movement that you believe is removed by the and then move your other units? Is that your current stance? That the DS restriction is irrelevant to units arriving by deep strike reserve or anyone else arriving by deep strike during the start of the turn.
Is this correct?
56924
Post by: Captyn_Bob
The rule as written applies to units that arrive during the movement phase.
81346
Post by: BlackTalos
Captyn_Bob wrote:So your interpretation is that 'during' should be expanded to 'during the turn'? That does make things a lot neater.
I still can't see why arriving in the same phase makes the blood tithe identical to reserves.
I'm not saying it's the wrong way to play it, but it feels more like a HIWPI argument , than a strict RAW ruling.
Of course I love HIWPI arguments , but anyone making one on this forum seems to get shouted down immediately.
I don't think that "during" needs to be expanded, but i do think it is implicit, yes.
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive". If i say "they arrive in the shooting phase", i don't think saying "In the Movement phase during which they arrive" about that specific unit is "Wrong".
"during which" is linked to the movement phase and when the rule applies, not linked to the specific time of arrival.
Captyn_Bob wrote:The arrival of reserves is laid out quite clearly , stating that you move your arriving reserves, and then move your other units.
This inherently precludes deep strikes reserves from moving again. This would include changing flight modes.
The blood tithe has no such clarity.
But when does the Blood Tithe model arrive? because the rule "In the Movement phase during which they arrive" is talking about arrival, and Reserves arrive at the start of the Turn. If two things happen "at the Start of the Turn" are they not simultaneous (and "the Same") ? As the player who's Turn it is, you could choose which one you do first, but the timing of the actions if still (both) before the Movement phase start.
56924
Post by: Captyn_Bob
I cannot think of any other examples of deep strike that happen at the start of turn. I can think of several that happen in the movement phase
(deploying from some flyers, the veil of darkness,,)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BlackTalos wrote: If two things happen "at the Start of the Turn" are they not simultaneous (and "the Same") ? As the player who's Turn it is, you could choose which one you do first, but the timing of the actions if still (both) before the Movement phase start.
Simultaneous, does not mean the same.. why would it? lots of stuff can be simultaneous.
I would interpret Bloodtithe arriving before reserves, but in your interpretation, yes the controlling player would choose.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Khaine's Wrath wrote:Firstly, I don't see how they are being allowed to move twice. If it comes in from deep strike it cannot move. That rule we all know. Although changing flight modes happens in the movement phase, it isn't a move.
This is false. Reread the FMC rules please.
Secondly, although coming in via deep strike, the unit isn't coming in from reserve. So the way it works as per the blood tithe summon is in fact inherently different from a unit purposefully placed in reserve.
Not in the way that's been presented this entire thread.
Now those two points will likely be decimated with people sat in front of rule books picking out specific sentences and words to suit and defend their own arguments. I'm at work and unfortunately don't have that luxury. But ignoring all specifics and semantics for a moment, it simply doesn't make sense that the writter intended for a predominantly combat orientated unit to arrive as per a summoning from the blood tithe table, and not be able to assault until it's third turn on the board. Why would that ever make sense? How could that ever be a logical intent?
No, it doesn't make sense that they intended that with literally no evidence pointing to that being the case!
And if you're going to argue rules without having a rulebook, please just don't.
You are suggesting that they have released a book that is clearly designed to boost the sales of the chaos units that are currently under performing in the sales department. And then present you with some promise with a specific rule set for those models, only to then snatch away any sort of competitive edge that rule set is giving you.
Yes. Absolutely. It wouldn't be the first time.
56924
Post by: Captyn_Bob
Actually i can think of a good example for this,
Say you have a unit with a daemonkin chaos lord in deep strike reserve, and 8 points on your blood tithe.
Can you deploy your lord, and then apply the blood tithe to transform him into the BTBT?
If both events happen at the start of the turn, then that is allowed.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Captyn_Bob wrote:Actually i can think of a good example for this,
Say you have a unit with a daemonkin chaos lord in deep strike reserve, and 8 points on your blood tithe.
Can you deploy your lord, and then apply the blood tithe to transform him into the BTBT?
If both events happen at the start of the turn, then that is allowed.
Sure, absolutely.
Why - did you expect a different answer?
Just like a Synapse creature arriving from Reserves that covers a non-Synapse unit means that the non-Synapse unit doesn't have to take a Synapse test.
92852
Post by: harkequin
I think so. Controlling players choice, however iirc, there is a caveat in the brb, that models can't use "at the start of turn" items, when they arrive from reserves. As BTBT is a special rule it should be okay
56924
Post by: Captyn_Bob
The actual rule, P 136
" a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserves."
22508
Post by: FlingitNow
I cannot think of any other examples of deep strike that happen at the start of turn. I can think of several that happen in the movement phase
(deploying from some flyers, the veil of darkness,,)
So can you think of an example of a unit that arrives by deepstrike during the movement phase (not deploys but arrives).
92852
Post by: harkequin
a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserves."
Well, there you have it. You can't use it on him despite them arriving at the start of the turn. They explicitly forbid it. It's a pity.
56924
Post by: Captyn_Bob
FlingitNow wrote: I cannot think of any other examples of deep strike that happen at the start of turn. I can think of several that happen in the movement phase
(deploying from some flyers, the veil of darkness,,)
So can you think of an example of a unit that arrives by deepstrike during the movement phase (not deploys but arrives).
You appear to be making a point using wordplay..
I have already given two examples of units that can arrive by deep strike during the movement phase, which are not reserves. Automatically Appended Next Post: harkequin wrote:a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserves."
Well, there you have it. You can't use it on him despite them arriving at the start of the turn. They explicitly forbid it. It's a pity.
Yeah, that question was a lot simpler than I thought it was when i posed it. But it still caught some people out, so we have learned!
47462
Post by: rigeld2
harkequin wrote:a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserves."
Well, there you have it. You can't use it on him despite them arriving at the start of the turn. They explicitly forbid it. It's a pity.
No, they don't. The Lord isn't using the Blood Tithe ability to turn into a BTBT. The Lord isn't using any special rule.
What's forbidding it?
56924
Post by: Captyn_Bob
I would consider it the use of a special ability .
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Is the unit that is arriving from Reserves using a special ability? Please cite rules support.
77440
Post by: Khaine's Wrath
@Captyn_bob, give up arguing with him. It's pointless. He reverts to petty name calling and childish insults anyway. He is clearly incapable of accepting anyone else's view point on this matter. He claims it's clear cut and proven. But 12 pages seem to disagree. I think you and I are in agreement on how we would play this rule until it is clarified. Automatically Appended Next Post: rigeld2 wrote:
Is the unit that is arriving from Reserves using a special ability? Please cite rules support.
Yes, the unit isn't actually arriving from reserves. It is arriving due to a rule that no other army has.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Khaine's Wrath wrote:@Captyn_bob, give up arguing with him. It's pointless. He reverts to petty name calling and childish insults anyway.
I do? Please, prove it. I'm begging you to. If I had, of course, you'd have reported me to the mods for breaking rule #1 - but I haven't.
He is clearly incapable of accepting anyone else's view point on this matter. He claims it's clear cut and proven. But 12 pages seem to disagree. I think you and I are in agreement on how we would play this rule until it is clarified.
I guarantee I could argue with you for 12 pages about the color of the sky, or the mathematical value of 2+2. That doesn't mean it's not clear cut.
rigeld2 wrote:
Is the unit that is arriving from Reserves using a special ability? Please cite rules support.
Yes, the unit isn't actually arriving from reserves. It is arriving due to a rule that no other army has.
The Lord that's being nuked for the BTBT isn't arriving from Reserves? Because that's what this part of the conversation is talking about.
56924
Post by: Captyn_Bob
sorry Rigeld, khaine seems to have missed your point.
The special rule being invoked is Blood For the Blood God. I believe that is applicable.
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Post by: rigeld2
Captyn_Bob wrote:sorry Rigeld, khaine seems to have missed your point.
The special rule being invoked is Blood For the Blood God. I believe that is applicable.
But is the arriving unit the one invoking it? That's the question.
If so, then you're right.
If not (and I'm pretty sure no one unit invokes BFTBG to trade in blood points) then there's no restriction.
56924
Post by: Captyn_Bob
Blood for the blood god! is certainly involved at one end of the other, so I think the restriction will apply, being sensible.
77440
Post by: Khaine's Wrath
Rigeld2, the first part of my post wasn't aimed at you my friend but at another. The reply to your comment was the only part meant to address yourself. My apologies.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Captyn_Bob wrote:Blood for the blood god! is certainly involved at one end of the other, so I think the restriction will apply, being sensible.
Yes, a special rule is involved. You're obviously not understanding what I'm saying.
Does the Lord's unit invoke BFTBG to trade in blood points, or does the army do it as a whole? Should be a trivial question to answer using actual rules, and not your feelings.
77440
Post by: Khaine's Wrath
I'm not sure I understand either. The army has the BFTBG special rule and it is applied at the very start of the controlling players turn.
Is this the answer you're after?
56924
Post by: Captyn_Bob
The target must have the rule for the active effect to take place. Which falls under the blanket statement of 'use'.
'Invoke ' isn't mentioned .
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Khaine's Wrath wrote:I'm not sure I understand either. The army has the BFTBG special rule and it is applied at the very start of the controlling players turn.
Is this the answer you're after?
Possibly. You're clearly not actually following the conversation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Captyn_Bob wrote:The target must have the rule for the active effect to take place. Which falls under the blanket statement of 'use'.
'Invoke ' isn't mentioned .
I don't have my book with me so I apologize for asking.
Is the Bloodthirster summon worded "Select a character in your army. That character spends 8 blood tithe points and explodes into a BT" or something similar? Or is it more similar to "Select a character in your army - that character explodes into a BT."?
Do you understand why the different wording is relevant?
56924
Post by: Captyn_Bob
The points are spent by the army, and the reward applied.
the exact wording;
"choose one friendly character with the Blood for the Blood god Rule special rule",
That character must immediately take a Leadership test..." and so on
I'm not sure I understand the difference in wording, either way the character is using the special rule, either directly or indirectly.
77440
Post by: Khaine's Wrath
I clearly am following the conversation thank you very much. I just do not understand the route you are following now. It seems I am not the only one.
81346
Post by: BlackTalos
Just thought i'd put in a comment here: what Rigeld was saying is quite clear to me.
We are now talking about this rule:
"a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserves."
Make sure you take note of the underlined.
What does this Rule say? that any Unit arriving from Reserves cannot use abilities or special rules (that must be used at the start of the turn).
So, is the Lord (Unit) who arrived from reserves, allowed to use one of his abilities (that must be used at the start of the turn)?
No
But can an army-wide rule (that must be used at the start of the turn) be used on the Lord? (BFTBG)
Yes
Because it is not an ability that the Lord (Unit) is using. It's like the Daemon Codex table that affect everything on the board: it is also a "(that must be used at the start of the turn)" effect, but it could affect Units that arrived from reserves (if they arrived before you rolled on the table <= if that is even possible)
47462
Post by: rigeld2
BlackTalos wrote:Just thought i'd put in a comment here: what Rigeld was saying is quite clear to me.
We are now talking about this rule:
"a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserves."
Make sure you take note of the underlined.
What does this Rule say? that any Unit arriving from Reserves cannot use abilities or special rules (that must be used at the start of the turn).
So, is the Lord (Unit) who arrived from reserves, allowed to use one of his abilities (that must be used at the start of the turn)?
No
But can an army-wide rule (that must be used at the start of the turn) be used on the Lord? (BFTBG)
Yes
Because it is not an ability that the Lord (Unit) is using. It's like the Daemon Codex table that affect everything on the board: it is also a "(that must be used at the start of the turn)" effect, but it could affect Units that arrived from reserves (if they arrived before you rolled on the table <= if that is even possible)
Exactly. Automatically Appended Next Post: Captyn_Bob wrote:The points are spent by the army, and the reward applied.
the exact wording;
"choose one friendly character with the Blood for the Blood god Rule special rule",
That character must immediately take a Leadership test..." and so on
I'm not sure I understand the difference in wording, either way the character is using the special rule, either directly or indirectly.
No, indirectly isn't enough. The unit is not using the special rule - the army is. Which is very relevant when the restriction is on the unit using the special rule.
56924
Post by: Captyn_Bob
Alright , you disagree. It's clearly intended to be a blanket statment to establish sequencing. But ultimately I don't care, as I think reserves arrive in the movement phase not the start of turn. but you guys play how you want. I think I have at least found an instance where the the difference matters. Amazingly still found disagreement. Never mind.
I think I'm done with this thread.
The only remaining dilemma is do I glue wings onto my daemon Prince or not...
I guess I'll pin them. :-)
59251
Post by: Dozer Blades
Captain Bob is right where or not some are willing to admit it. There's really no point in any further discussion.
89074
Post by: Angrygrot
Something that might add to this conversation. In the tactical objectives the objective card Murder Call makes a clear distinction between deep strike reserve and daemon summoning through the blood tithe.
This might give more evidence for thediceabide's arguement
The card grants a victory point if a daemon was summoned via deep strike -reserve- or if one was summoned via the blood tithe table. If deep strike reserve was no different from deep strike/blood tithe, wouldn't that extra bit about the blood tithe be redundant?
87123
Post by: stormcraft
I think it is very clear that RAI is not that your BT has to way 3 bloody tuns to charge.
RAW are pretty unclear and clearly worth a lot of discussion, and maybe RAW he really has to wait 3 turns.
But if anyone really thinks GW intended its core shiny BT in this codex to get shot for three rounds after it was summond is delusional, sorry.
Its again just crappy rule writing imho.
22508
Post by: FlingitNow
Angrygrot wrote:Something that might add to this conversation. In the tactical objectives the objective card Murder Call makes a clear distinction between deep strike reserve and daemon summoning through the blood tithe.
This might give more evidence for thediceabide's arguement
The card grants a victory point if a daemon was summoned via deep strike -reserve- or if one was summoned via the blood tithe table. If deep strike reserve was no different from deep strike/blood tithe, wouldn't that extra bit about the blood tithe be redundant?
Yes they are 2 different things. No that doesn't make a jot of difference to this situation. Automatically Appended Next Post: stormcraft wrote:I think it is very clear that RAI is not that your BT has to way 3 bloody tuns to charge.
RAW are pretty unclear and clearly worth a lot of discussion, and maybe RAW he really has to wait 3 turns.
But if anyone really thinks GW intended its core shiny BT in this codex to get shot for three rounds after it was summond is delusional, sorry.
Its again just crappy rule writing imho.
Sorry but RaI is clearly that a BT arriving via Blood Tithe has the same restrictions as one that arrives via deepstrike reserve. Why? Because they have not told us to treat it any differently at all. A good basis for RaI is maintain the status quo unless instructed otherwise. There is nothing in Blood Tithe that even hints at it being treated differently.
GW wouldn't release a model with poor rules? Well an Insensate BT is still very strong and the summoned ones are free so the fact they come with downsides is hardly surprising. However a quick History lesson for you:
Harlequin Codex just got released nothing in there is really competitive.
Go back BAs got new plastic assault terminators with nothing making them any good with a poor banner option. They also got new tac marines, the heavy flamer helped but tac marines are still dump.
Orks got the Gorkanaught/Morkanaught neither are competitive.
Guard got a new Hydra that is worse than the old one.
Tyranids: toxicrene is just about useable the Maleceptor is completely terrible. It's power costs tripple the Warp Charge of Psychic Shriek for a power that is worse than Psychic Shriek in every way. Haruspex is just awful. Then the big new Hiveguard/Tyrantguard kit. So they change the Tyrant so the better build of Dakkaflyrant got cheaper and improved Bs so the already best choice that meant no Tyrantguard got better making it a completely no brainer when they took away the 2+ save to mean there was absolutely no reason to take a walking Flyrant with guard. What about the other half well Hiveguard were the best shooty Elite slot. So they make venonthropes and Zoanthropes better (the later also useful for WC generation and synapse), they make Hiveguard lower Bs and increase their points by 5, then they given them a new gun that is worse than their old gun and yet more points. They did everything they could rulewise to make that new kit worthless.
So yes GW frequently release new models with poor rules. The new BT kit isn't even one of those cases as one version will see a lot of play.
49515
Post by: WarlordRob117
FlingitNow wrote:Angrygrot wrote:Something that might add to this conversation. In the tactical objectives the objective card Murder Call makes a clear distinction between deep strike reserve and daemon summoning through the blood tithe.
This might give more evidence for thediceabide's arguement
The card grants a victory point if a daemon was summoned via deep strike -reserve- or if one was summoned via the blood tithe table. If deep strike reserve was no different from deep strike/blood tithe, wouldn't that extra bit about the blood tithe be redundant?
Yes they are 2 different things. No that doesn't make a jot of difference to this situation.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
stormcraft wrote:I think it is very clear that RAI is not that your BT has to way 3 bloody tuns to charge.
RAW are pretty unclear and clearly worth a lot of discussion, and maybe RAW he really has to wait 3 turns.
But if anyone really thinks GW intended its core shiny BT in this codex to get shot for three rounds after it was summond is delusional, sorry.
Its again just crappy rule writing imho.
Sorry but RaI is clearly that a BT arriving via Blood Tithe has the same restrictions as one that arrives via deepstrike reserve. Why? Because they have not told us to treat it any differently at all. A good basis for RaI is maintain the status quo unless instructed otherwise. There is nothing in Blood Tithe that even hints at it being treated differently.
GW wouldn't release a model with poor rules? Well an Insensate BT is still very strong and the summoned ones are free so the fact they come with downsides is hardly surprising. However a quick History lesson for you:
Harlequin Codex just got released nothing in there is really competitive.
Go back BAs got new plastic assault terminators with nothing making them any good with a poor banner option. They also got new tac marines, the heavy flamer helped but tac marines are still dump.
Orks got the Gorkanaught/Morkanaught neither are competitive.
Guard got a new Hydra that is worse than the old one.
Tyranids: toxicrene is just about useable the Maleceptor is completely terrible. It's power costs tripple the Warp Charge of Psychic Shriek for a power that is worse than Psychic Shriek in every way. Haruspex is just awful. Then the big new Hiveguard/Tyrantguard kit. So they change the Tyrant so the better build of Dakkaflyrant got cheaper and improved Bs so the already best choice that meant no Tyrantguard got better making it a completely no brainer when they took away the 2+ save to mean there was absolutely no reason to take a walking Flyrant with guard. What about the other half well Hiveguard were the best shooty Elite slot. So they make venonthropes and Zoanthropes better (the later also useful for WC generation and synapse), they make Hiveguard lower Bs and increase their points by 5, then they given them a new gun that is worse than their old gun and yet more points. They did everything they could rulewise to make that new kit worthless.
So yes GW frequently release new models with poor rules. The new BT kit isn't even one of those cases as one version will see a lot of play.
My apologies up front but you are all over the place and are not making one lick of sense
How in one hand can you say that the datacard that was presented as evidence for a seperate game mechanic is dismissable as proof and then turn around saying that no proof exists?
May want to take a good long look in the mirror when telling people to cite their speech as opinion, because right now... we have two very reliable pieces of evidence that the bloodthirster should be able to charge the turn after it arrives from DS in the White Dwarf Battle report and now in datacards, making your argument less valid.
Also, who are to say that certain models rules are garbage when they are routinely used? The new harlequin stuff is highly compettitive and borderline bananas with some of the rules. (A solitaire killing 2 daemon princes on average dice rolls is an example).
BA Marines are still marines and do more work for their points than many other basic infantry do
the toxicrene is a nightmare to terminator armies, including grey knights (argued to still be one of the best codices on the market)
the goranaut is routinely used in my META due to how tough to crack it can be.
just because you have bad luck with dice doesnt mean certain models are bad.
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Post by: BlackTalos
Angrygrot wrote:Something that might add to this conversation. In the tactical objectives the objective card Murder Call makes a clear distinction between deep strike reserve and daemon summoning through the blood tithe.
This might give more evidence for thediceabide's arguement
The card grants a victory point if a daemon was summoned via deep strike -reserve- or if one was summoned via the blood tithe table. If deep strike reserve was no different from deep strike/blood tithe, wouldn't that extra bit about the blood tithe be redundant?
As FlingitNow has said, i do not see this as support for being able to choose flight modes in the Movement phase.
If anything, it support my point of view that a Unit summoned via the blood tithe table does not, actually, come from Deep Strike Reserves.
The data card is making it seem like there is a difference in arriving by Deep Strike from Deep Strike Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike via the blood tithe table (so not coming from Reserves).
That is all the difference it makes.
Both arriving by Deep Strike from Deep Strike Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike via the blood tithe table happen at the same time: At the start of the Turn. As can be seen in the Reserves Rules.
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Post by: rigeld2
Angrygrot wrote:Something that might add to this conversation. In the tactical objectives the objective card Murder Call makes a clear distinction between deep strike reserve and daemon summoning through the blood tithe.
This might give more evidence for thediceabide's arguement
The card grants a victory point if a daemon was summoned via deep strike -reserve- or if one was summoned via the blood tithe table. If deep strike reserve was no different from deep strike/blood tithe, wouldn't that extra bit about the blood tithe be redundant?
No one is really saying the BTBT comes from Reserves - please stop with the straw man argument.
People have asserted that the BTBT can change modes because it's a special snowflake that arrives at a different time. The Reserves discussion is to prove otherwise.
stormcraft wrote:I think it is very clear that RAI is not that your BT has to way 3 bloody tuns to charge.
RAW are pretty unclear and clearly worth a lot of discussion, and maybe RAW he really has to wait 3 turns.
But if anyone really thinks GW intended its core shiny BT in this codex to get shot for three rounds after it was summond is delusional, sorry.
Its again just crappy rule writing imho.
No, the RAI isn't "very clear". It's literally wishful thinking. It's not delusional to treat a FMC the same as literally every other FMC in the game.
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Post by: Dozer Blades
So yeah just pretend the data card has nothing to do with resolving this discussion .
81346
Post by: BlackTalos
 Dozer Blades wrote:So yeah just pretend the data card has nothing to do with resolving this discussion .
It does, but just not in the way proposed. It's not being ignored, i addressed why they would make a difference (on the card), and so has Rigeld.
It just does not change how the Blood Tithe summons differ from standard FMC, regarding time of arrival. It addresses method, yes, but not timing....
22508
Post by: FlingitNow
How in one hand can you say that the datacard that was presented as evidence for a seperate game mechanic is dismissable as proof and then turn around saying that no proof exists?
May want to take a good long look in the mirror when telling people to cite their speech as opinion, because right now... we have two very reliable pieces of evidence that the bloodthirster should be able to charge the turn after it arrives from DS in the White Dwarf Battle report and now in datacards, making your argument less valid.
Also, who are to say that certain models rules are garbage when they are routinely used? The new harlequin stuff is highly compettitive and borderline bananas with some of the rules. (A solitaire killing 2 daemon princes on average dice rolls is an example).
BA Marines are still marines and do more work for their points than many other basic infantry do
the toxicrene is a nightmare to terminator armies, including grey knights (argued to still be one of the best codices on the market)
the goranaut is routinely used in my META due to how tough to crack it can be.
just because you have bad luck with dice doesnt mean certain models are bad.
How is the datacard evidence that you can change flight mode? Seriously how?
White Dwarf battle reports get rules wrong all the time (for instance they had Pask on his own in one, they also shot full Bs at a FMC after grounding it in that turn) and don't give us the detail any more to accurately see what happened.
There is no evidence as yet provided that even hints that a summoned Blood Thirster can move after deepstriking (which is what the change flight mode argument requires you to be able to do).
As for my luck that is irrelevant. I'm talking about what is taken on the tournament scene and what is competitive. The Solitaire dies on average to 10 boltgun marines. If you're dumb enough to let him fight stuff like a DP that's your fault not an effective unit. His main role is area denial but in a meta with Drop Pods, Dakkaflyrants and Broadsides he should never see combat.
As for my dice I don't
49515
Post by: WarlordRob117
rigeld2 wrote:Angrygrot wrote:Something that might add to this conversation. In the tactical objectives the objective card Murder Call makes a clear distinction between deep strike reserve and daemon summoning through the blood tithe.
This might give more evidence for thediceabide's arguement
The card grants a victory point if a daemon was summoned via deep strike -reserve- or if one was summoned via the blood tithe table. If deep strike reserve was no different from deep strike/blood tithe, wouldn't that extra bit about the blood tithe be redundant?
No one is really saying the BTBT comes from Reserves - please stop with the straw man argument.
People have asserted that the BTBT can change modes because it's a special snowflake that arrives at a different time. The Reserves discussion is to prove otherwise.
stormcraft wrote:I think it is very clear that RAI is not that your BT has to way 3 bloody tuns to charge.
RAW are pretty unclear and clearly worth a lot of discussion, and maybe RAW he really has to wait 3 turns.
But if anyone really thinks GW intended its core shiny BT in this codex to get shot for three rounds after it was summond is delusional, sorry.
Its again just crappy rule writing imho.
No, the RAI isn't "very clear". It's literally wishful thinking. It's not delusional to treat a FMC the same as literally every other FMC in the game.
you mean treat it like every FMC can be brought into the game via blood tithe? Cause thats what you are saying, and you'd be wrong
The blood tithe mechanic introduces a new precendent in deep strike/deployment that involves a FMC, so again, we are not arguing the model, but the delivery system.
(@FlingitNow)
the data cards present two different methods of deepstrike deployment involving the blood tithe mechanic and deep strike reserves. These are not the same thing and should be treated as such... clearly... thats seriously how.
Again... did you ever stop to think that perhaps we as the players are playing something wrong? There are several rules that seem to make no sense to us but make every bit of sense to GW. Im not brainwashed by any means but I also refuse to think that a bunch of geeks who pride themselves on attention to detail made a mistake playing an army for which the wrote the rules for. The same goes for this instance.
Cite the rule for changing flight modes please... verbatim...
I dont care what you are talking about... its still your opinion... people lose due to bad dice rolls all the time, that is something you cant change, doesnt make a model bad, especially when you think Im dumb for running an elite CC model against another elite (tricked out) CC model. How about you use the model how you want to use it and stop bad mouthing peoples success, mmmk Pumpkin?
you dont what?
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Post by: rigeld2
 WarlordRob117 wrote:you mean treat it like every FMC can be brought into the game via blood tithe? Cause thats what you are saying, and you'd be wrong
No, I mean treat it like every FMC that arrives via Deep Strike.
The blood tithe mechanic introduces a new precendent in deep strike/deployment that involves a FMC, so again, we are not arguing the model, but the delivery system.
No, it doesn't introduce a new precedent. Asserting that it does is wishful thinking.
Again... did you ever stop to think that perhaps we as the players are playing something wrong? There are several rules that seem to make no sense to us but make every bit of sense to GW. Im not brainwashed by any means but I also refuse to think that a bunch of geeks who pride themselves on attention to detail made a mistake playing an army for which the wrote the rules for. The same goes for this instance.
Except for the fact that there have been numerous times they literally broke rules in White Dwarf battle reports, and that they've said - again, numerous times, that they do them for the narrative and bend/break rules if it makes the narrative better.
Cite the rule for changing flight modes please... verbatim...
It's been cited multiple times in this thread. And it's absolutely clear in the rulebook.
You change flight modes before your move. Which means you must be able to move to change flight modes.
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Post by: BlackTalos
WarlordRob117 wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Angrygrot wrote:Something that might add to this conversation. In the tactical objectives the objective card Murder Call makes a clear distinction between deep strike reserve and daemon summoning through the blood tithe.
This might give more evidence for thediceabide's arguement
The card grants a victory point if a daemon was summoned via deep strike -reserve- or if one was summoned via the blood tithe table. If deep strike reserve was no different from deep strike/blood tithe, wouldn't that extra bit about the blood tithe be redundant?
No one is really saying the BTBT comes from Reserves - please stop with the straw man argument.
People have asserted that the BTBT can change modes because it's a special snowflake that arrives at a different time. The Reserves discussion is to prove otherwise.
stormcraft wrote:I think it is very clear that RAI is not that your BT has to way 3 bloody tuns to charge.
RAW are pretty unclear and clearly worth a lot of discussion, and maybe RAW he really has to wait 3 turns.
But if anyone really thinks GW intended its core shiny BT in this codex to get shot for three rounds after it was summond is delusional, sorry.
Its again just crappy rule writing imho.
No, the RAI isn't "very clear". It's literally wishful thinking. It's not delusional to treat a FMC the same as literally every other FMC in the game.
you mean treat it like every FMC can be brought into the game via blood tithe? Cause thats what you are saying, and you'd be wrong
The blood tithe mechanic introduces a new precendent in deep strike/deployment that involves a FMC, so again, we are not arguing the model, but the delivery system.
(@FlingitNow)
the data cards present two different methods of deepstrike deployment involving the blood tithe mechanic and deep strike reserves. These are not the same thing and should be treated as such... clearly... thats seriously how.
Again... did you ever stop to think that perhaps we as the players are playing something wrong? There are several rules that seem to make no sense to us but make every bit of sense to GW. Im not brainwashed by any means but I also refuse to think that a bunch of geeks who pride themselves on attention to detail made a mistake playing an army for which the wrote the rules for. The same goes for this instance.
Cite the rule for changing flight modes please... verbatim...
I dont care what you are talking about... its still your opinion... people lose due to bad dice rolls all the time, that is something you cant change, doesnt make a model bad, especially when you think Im dumb for running an elite CC model against another elite (tricked out) CC model. How about you use the model how you want to use it and stop bad mouthing peoples success, mmmk Pumpkin?
you dont what?
I'm not sure i can understand an argument from this?
Blood Tithe summoning and a FMC in Reserves are obviously different.....?
They both arrive at the start of the Turn, they both arrive by Deep Strike, and they are both forbidden to move further by this rule:
"In the movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further,"
Where is there an issue with this set of rules?
56924
Post by: Captyn_Bob
You are applying a rule which specifies arriving in the movement phase to units not arriving in the movement phase, how can you not see an issue?
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Captyn_Bob wrote:You are applying a rule which specifies arriving in the movement phase to units not arriving in the movement phase, how can you not see an issue?
So you're still stuck on the incorrect perception that Reserves arrive in the movement phase, despite the evidence we've shown?
And the fact that your assertion means you get to move twice with many units?
I just want to make sure I understand your position.
14
Post by: Ghaz
Captyn_Bob wrote:You are applying a rule which specifies arriving in the movement phase to units not arriving in the movement phase, how can you not see an issue?
Telling someone he can't move further in the Movement phase doesn't mean he had to have moved in the Movement phase. He moved at the start of the turn and can't move further in the Movement phase.
81346
Post by: BlackTalos
Captyn_Bob wrote:You are applying a rule which specifies arriving in the movement phase to units not arriving in the movement phase, how can you not see an issue?
The thing is, i used to agree to that Version. But it was proven impossible for "normal" FMC in Reserves to arrive in the movement phase.
No one can arrive in the movement phase. That's what was proven. So either:
1) The rule means absolutely nothing, and everyone can move.
2) The rule applies to any Unit that "arrived"
59251
Post by: Dozer Blades
The crux of the matter is the summoned BT arrives prior to the start of the movement phase. This cannot be disputed - sure you can back slap each other that disagree but that's all it is. The data card shows us explicit intention and you can't get around that either.
56924
Post by: Captyn_Bob
rigeld2 wrote:Captyn_Bob wrote:You are applying a rule which specifies arriving in the movement phase to units not arriving in the movement phase, how can you not see an issue?
So you're still stuck on the incorrect perception that Reserves arrive in the movement phase, despite the evidence we've shown?
And the fact that your assertion means you get to move twice with many units?
I just want to make sure I understand your position.
That is the opposite of what I said. I won't talk about Reserves, as reserves are completely irrelevant to the Blood Tithe.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Captyn_Bob wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Captyn_Bob wrote:You are applying a rule which specifies arriving in the movement phase to units not arriving in the movement phase, how can you not see an issue?
So you're still stuck on the incorrect perception that Reserves arrive in the movement phase, despite the evidence we've shown?
And the fact that your assertion means you get to move twice with many units?
I just want to make sure I understand your position.
That is the opposite of what I said. I won't talk about Reserves, as reserves are completely irrelevant to the Blood Tithe.
Except they're not.
And if it's the opposite of what you said, you agree that BTBTs can't change flight modes the turn they arrive?
56924
Post by: Captyn_Bob
BlackTalos wrote:Captyn_Bob wrote:You are applying a rule which specifies arriving in the movement phase to units not arriving in the movement phase, how can you not see an issue?
The thing is, i used to agree to that Version. But it was proven impossible for "normal" FMC in Reserves to arrive in the movement phase.
No one can arrive in the movement phase. That's what was proven. So either:
1) The rule means absolutely nothing, and everyone can move.
2) The rule applies to any Unit that "arrived"
The Reserves section is quite clear on who can move or not move. The rule applies to anything arriving by Deep Strike in the movement phase.
I can understand why you would interpret it differently and its a decent interpretation, but not the rule as written.
59251
Post by: Dozer Blades
Summoned BT arrives prior to the start of the movement phase. Normal deepstriking FMC arrives at the start of the movement phase .
5462
Post by: adamsouza
No one can arrive in the movement phase. That's what was proven. So either:
1) The rule means absolutely nothing, and everyone can move.
2) The rule applies to any Unit that "arrived"
So interpretation1, make NO SENSE, since it can not be applied
Interpretation 2 is on the only one that can be applied, so it is the viable option.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Captyn_Bob wrote:The rule applies to anything arriving by Deep Strike in the movement phase.
It's been proven, using actual rules, that this isn't the case - units do not arrive by Deep Strike in the movement phase (in general).
At this point you're making things up.
56924
Post by: Captyn_Bob
Dozer Blades wrote:Summoned BT arrives prior to the start of the movement phase. Normal deepstriking FMC arrives at the start of the movement phase .
I agree, but many don't. The Order of reserves remains irrelevant to the Blood Tithe however..
Perhaps a separate thread to discuss only reserves?
admittedly that would involve going around in circles.... Automatically Appended Next Post: rigeld2 wrote:Captyn_Bob wrote:The rule applies to anything arriving by Deep Strike in the movement phase.
It's been proven, using actual rules, that this isn't the case - units do not arrive by Deep Strike in the movement phase (in general).
At this point you're making things up.
Units arrive by deep strike in the movement phase all the time.
At this point, you are rewriting rules to read as you think they work.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Captyn_Bob wrote: Dozer Blades wrote:Summoned BT arrives prior to the start of the movement phase. Normal deepstriking FMC arrives at the start of the movement phase .
I agree, but many don't. The Order of reserves remains irrelevant to the Blood Tithe however..
No, it isn't. You can keep pretending it is, but it's not.
The crux of your argument - the entire reason you want to pretend the BTBT is special, is because you say he's the only unit that arrives in the Start of Turn.
That's been conclusively proven wrong. As such, you've shifted to "Reserves are irrelevant and can't be used to prove anything, the BTBT is just special because he is."
You've utterly failed to provide rules support for your assertions that hasn't been disproven.
5462
Post by: adamsouza
You decide to use Blood Tithe at the beggining of the phase.
The models arrival uses the Deep Strike Rules.
I've quoted the actual rules and pointed this out earlier.
NOTHING in the rules says the models Deep strike any differently than other models that deep strike. If they don't deep strike any differently than they are subject to the same limitations as everyone else who Deep Strikes.
56924
Post by: Captyn_Bob
rigeld2 wrote:Captyn_Bob wrote: Dozer Blades wrote:Summoned BT arrives prior to the start of the movement phase. Normal deepstriking FMC arrives at the start of the movement phase .
I agree, but many don't. The Order of reserves remains irrelevant to the Blood Tithe however..
No, it isn't. You can keep pretending it is, but it's not.
The crux of your argument - the entire reason you want to pretend the BTBT is special, is because you say he's the only unit that arrives in the Start of Turn.
That's been conclusively proven wrong. As such, you've shifted to "Reserves are irrelevant and can't be used to prove anything, the BTBT is just special because he is."
You've utterly failed to provide rules support for your assertions that hasn't been disproven.
Now your putting words in my mouth. And I remember why I quit this thread.
If people want to read "movement phase during which they arrive" as "Whenever I want to apply the restriction" then go ahead, but don't pretend its RAW.
14
Post by: Ghaz
Captyn_Bob wrote:Units arrive by deep strike in the movement phase all the time.
At this point, you are rewriting rules to read as you think they work.
Except they don't. You're the one who's rewriting rules to read how you think they work. Reserves arrive before the Movement phase.
81346
Post by: BlackTalos
Captyn_Bob wrote:The Reserves section is quite clear on who can move or not move. The rule applies to anything arriving by Deep Strike in the movement phase.
I can understand why you would interpret it differently and its a decent interpretation, but not the rule as written.
Captyn_Bob wrote:Units arrive by deep strike in the movement phase all the time.
At this point, you are rewriting rules to read as you think they work.
That is indeed that actual problem here.
Units arriving by Deep Strike from Deep Strike Reserves (all the "normal" Deep Strike) arrive at the start of the Turn, possibly even before you Spend Blood Tithe points (because "start of Turn" things can be played in the order you want).
No one Deep Strikes during the movement phase (from Reserves).
47462
Post by: rigeld2
Captyn_Bob wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Captyn_Bob wrote: Dozer Blades wrote:Summoned BT arrives prior to the start of the movement phase. Normal deepstriking FMC arrives at the start of the movement phase .
I agree, but many don't. The Order of reserves remains irrelevant to the Blood Tithe however..
No, it isn't. You can keep pretending it is, but it's not.
The crux of your argument - the entire reason you want to pretend the BTBT is special, is because you say he's the only unit that arrives in the Start of Turn.
That's been conclusively proven wrong. As such, you've shifted to "Reserves are irrelevant and can't be used to prove anything, the BTBT is just special because he is."
You've utterly failed to provide rules support for your assertions that hasn't been disproven.
Now your putting words in my mouth. And I remember why I quit this thread.
If people want to read "movement phase during which they arrive" as "Whenever I want to apply the restriction" then go ahead, but don't pretend its RAW.
Please, what words have I put in your mouth?
I'm asking you to correct me. And that's not how I'm reading it but thanks for the passive-aggressive insult.
49515
Post by: WarlordRob117
rigeld2 wrote:
Cite the rule for changing flight modes please... verbatim...
It's been cited multiple times in this thread. And it's absolutely clear in the rulebook.
You change flight modes before your move. Which means you must be able to move to change flight modes.
Ok... so where does it say that you have to be able to move to change flight modes?
Where in the rules does it say explicitly "In order to change flight modes, from swooping to gliding, the model must be able to move"?
Especially since we've already established that deploying is not moving
81346
Post by: BlackTalos
"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare..."
So, (Verbatim quote) you declare at the start of your move. When is this "move" ?
56924
Post by: Captyn_Bob
yeah this is pretty clear
47462
Post by: rigeld2
WarlordRob117 wrote:rigeld2 wrote:
Cite the rule for changing flight modes please... verbatim...
It's been cited multiple times in this thread. And it's absolutely clear in the rulebook.
You change flight modes before your move. Which means you must be able to move to change flight modes.
Ok... so where does it say that you have to be able to move to change flight modes?
Where in the rules does it say explicitly "In order to change flight modes, from swooping to gliding, the model must be able to move"?
Especially since we've already established that deploying is not moving
... Wait, you're actually still on this?
So you haven't read the thread?
Talos covered the rules quote for you but again - it's been covered in the thread multiple times and I thought we were well past that by now.
49515
Post by: WarlordRob117
BlackTalos wrote:"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare..."
So, (Verbatim quote) you declare at the start of your move. When is this "move" ?
can a model not move 0 inches?
Im pretty sure thats a thing... kinda like when a heavy weapon model moves 0 inches to be able to fire his heavy weapon at full BS
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Post by: rigeld2
WarlordRob117 wrote: BlackTalos wrote:"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare..."
So, (Verbatim quote) you declare at the start of your move. When is this "move" ?
can a model not move 0 inches?
Im pretty sure thats a thing... kinda like when a heavy weapon model moves 0 inches to be able to fire his heavy weapon at full BS
To have a start of a model's move, it must be able to move, agreed?
92852
Post by: harkequin
can a model not move 0 inches?
You can't start a move you never make ...
Heavy weapon models just don't move. If you move the model forward one inch, then back to where it was, it still moved 2".
The model is not allowed to move, therefore, it may not start (nor finish) a move.
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Post by: Dozer Blades
Best make up the rules to support your case I have ever seen here - absolutely brilliant.
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Post by: BlackTalos
To be fair, the thread is getting quite long and i would not jump in now and read the whole 15 pages.... I'll try to sum up the RaW: Flight modes: "At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare..."
So you must be able to move to changes Flight modes. When does a Blood Thirster summoned by Blood tithe arrive? a new unit under your control immediately arrives via Deep Strike within range of the specified unit(s) on the board
So "at the start of the Turn" When does a Blood Thirster in Deep Strike Reserves arrive? Arriving from Reserve
[Snip]If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.
So "at the start of the Turn" What restrictions do these models, who arrived by Deep Strike, have? In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from (...).
In that turn’s Shooting phase, these units can fire (or Run, Turbo-boost or move Flat Out) as normal, and count (...)
In that turn’s Assault phase, however, these units cannot charge. This also applies to units that have disembarked from Transports that arrived by Deep Strike that turn.
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Post by: WarlordRob117
rigeld2 wrote: WarlordRob117 wrote: BlackTalos wrote:"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare..."
So, (Verbatim quote) you declare at the start of your move. When is this "move" ?
can a model not move 0 inches?
Im pretty sure thats a thing... kinda like when a heavy weapon model moves 0 inches to be able to fire his heavy weapon at full BS
To have a start of a model's move, it must be able to move, agreed?
No I dont agree... so an immobolized vehicle has to move? A drop pod has to move? a sporocyte has to move?
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Post by: rigeld2
WarlordRob117 wrote:rigeld2 wrote: WarlordRob117 wrote: BlackTalos wrote:"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare..."
So, (Verbatim quote) you declare at the start of your move. When is this "move" ?
can a model not move 0 inches?
Im pretty sure thats a thing... kinda like when a heavy weapon model moves 0 inches to be able to fire his heavy weapon at full BS
To have a start of a model's move, it must be able to move, agreed?
No I dont agree... so an immobolized vehicle has to move? A drop pod has to move? a sporocyte has to move?
Um. No? I never said that?
Immobilized vehicles don't move, so they never have a "start of the model's move".
If you can't move a model, it never has a "At the start of the model's move..." you can do something.
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Post by: WarlordRob117
harkequin wrote:can a model not move 0 inches?
You can't start a move you never make ...
Heavy weapon models just don't move. If you move the model forward one inch, then back to where it was, it still moved 2".
The model is not allowed to move, therefore, it may not start (nor finish) a move.
Why cant you? I've told my opponents plenty of times "this model is moving zero inches" unless it has to move like a flier.
Tanks, infantry do not have to move their full distance during the movement phase
Its still considered movement regardless of whether the model moved or not... thats why its called the movement phase
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Post by: rigeld2
WarlordRob117 wrote:harkequin wrote:can a model not move 0 inches?
You can't start a move you never make ...
Heavy weapon models just don't move. If you move the model forward one inch, then back to where it was, it still moved 2".
The model is not allowed to move, therefore, it may not start (nor finish) a move.
Why cant you? I've told my opponents plenty of times "this model is moving zero inches" unless it has to move like a flier.
Tanks, infantry do not have to move their full distance during the movement phase
Its still considered movement regardless of whether the model moved or not... thats why its called the movement phase
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
You're never forced to move all of your units.
Note that you don’t have to move all (or any) of your units – indeed, there are several tactical advantages to remaining stationary, as we’ll explain later in the rules.
Reinforcing the fact that you don't have to move units.
That doesn't mean that models that can't move can be elected to move, and then do things like change flight modes. If you're forbidden from moving, you can't move.
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Post by: BlackTalos
WarlordRob117 wrote:harkequin wrote:can a model not move 0 inches?
You can't start a move you never make ...
Heavy weapon models just don't move. If you move the model forward one inch, then back to where it was, it still moved 2".
The model is not allowed to move, therefore, it may not start (nor finish) a move.
Why cant you? I've told my opponents plenty of times "this model is moving zero inches" unless it has to move like a flier.
Tanks, infantry do not have to move their full distance during the movement phase
Its still considered movement regardless of whether the model moved or not... thats why its called the movement phase
Unfortunately that is completely incorrect...
You *could* say you're moving 0.001", but you ARE still moving.
Drop Pods cannot do so.
Blood Thirsters that arrived from Reserves or Blood Tithe cannot do so....
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Post by: harkequin
Why cant you? I've told my opponents plenty of times "this model is moving zero inches" unless it has to move like a flier.
If you move a model with a heavy weapon , it snap fires, regardless of how far you move it. You always have the option of NOT moving it. You don't have to move anything in your army, so the whole " a drop pod has to move" thing is what you are arguing, that a drop pod still has to move (0") despite it NOT being allowed to move. You're actually arguing against yourself here.
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Post by: Dozer Blades
Looking elsewhere in regards to this discussion it looks like the general consensus is Khorne FMCs can switch to glide mode.
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Post by: BlackTalos
Dozer Blades wrote:Looking elsewhere in regards to this discussion it looks like the general consensus is Khorne FMCs can switch to glide mode.
I'd definitely let them arrive in Glide mode. That's HIWPI, yeah.
But then there's also the RaW.
And those are usually not followed by "internet consensus", so the YMDC Forum exists. And that's where we're currently posting. So no, Khorne FMCs cannot switch to glide mode.
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Post by: Dozer Blades
You're whole argument is based upon a really super nuisance of the rules.
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Post by: harkequin
The whole argument is based off RAW. No one here is trying to say how YOU should play it, just how the rules say. Houseruling is no problem if your flgs is okay with it, here it's just about what the rule book says.
Here, Technically correct is the best kind of correct, the letter of the law not the spirit.
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Post by: FlingitNow
Ok what is your argument? Why are they different to normal FMCs that arrive by Deepstrike from reserve?
Remembering they both arrive at the same time so the only differences are that you don't roll for reserves and you don't start in reserve. Why do those 2 things make a difference to when you can switch flight mode?
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Post by: Dozer Blades
Dont start with that nonsense again. You are going on my I list as of now .
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