Am I reading these leaked rules right? It says any unit containing at least one model generates blood tithe points. Then it says when you spend them all blood tithe units gain certain abilities. Would an allied IC attached to a blood tithe unit gain the benefits such as FNP?

If you can provide the rules in question, then we could have a more profitable discussion. Otherwise, it's probably best to wait for the codex to actually be released.

I'm sure that the Blood Tithe special rules gives instructions about which specific models may receive the Tithe benefits.

http://forum.spikeybits.com/showthread.php?20775-Chaos-Space-Marines-Rumor-Roundup

Scroll to the bottom of the first post.

Yes you get both based on where the comma is in that sentence.

A Blood Tithe point is generated each time...

(snip other reason)

A character with the Blood for the Blood God! special rule is slain, or slays an enemy character in a challenge.

Whats posted on the other forum is likely a poorly written summery of the rules and is muddling some of the finer points.

Going on wording given, yes IC gains bonus whilst joined. Indeed join a Daemonkin IC to a nondaemonkin unit and they would benefit. The issue being taking allies reduces opportunities for gain blood tithe points in the first place...

I am thinking allied CSM sorcerers gaining FNP in a Daemonkin unit could be a thing. Put him on a bike in a group of hounds. Now you have psychic shriek giving blood tithe points and potential FNP on sorcerer for perils.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DJGietzen wrote:
Whats posted on the other forum is likely a poorly written summery of the rules and is muddling some of the finer points.

There are images of the codex at the bottom.

That appears to be the case.

I was thinking it was a poor summery because it suggested models and units could have the special rule interchangeably. This is likely a mistake from GW. Not having a datasheet in front of me its not clear if its a special rule units have(as the table suggests) or a special rule a model in a unit can have (as the rules for accruing tithe points suggests).

OP did you change your question completely? Because my answer no longer makes any sense...

No. I did not understand your answer either lol. I edited the original question just to add the word "allied" in front of IC for clarity.

This is not really related to this thread, but I just realized that a Sorcerer on Bike joined to a unit of FleshHounds would get at least a 3+ Deny the Witch, or a 2+ if the Sorcerer has a higher ML that the enemy psyker.

Drakkol wrote:
No. I did not understand your answer either lol. I edited the original question just to add the word "allied" in front of IC for clarity.

Well this is embarrassing. I think I started answering before I even read the whole thing. My apologies.

Out of interest then... is there any restriction on a character with a mark different to khorne, joining some fearless daemons of khorne?


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Cos my nurgle biker lord would be quite happy with some fleshhounds.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Out of interest then... is there any restriction on a character with a mark different to khorne, joining some fearless daemons of khorne?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cos my nurgle biker lord would be quite happy with some fleshhounds.

No restrictions exist, though not the CSM restriction of not joining units with a different mark still count (so you couldn't add a Daemonkin juggerlord to the same unit).

After a bit of research it seems, at least from my interpretation of the rules, that a DPrince or BT summoned via the Blood Tithe can switch his flight mode the same turn it comes in DS.

Pages 68, you see the rules for FMC and DS, it says"...a FMC that comes in DS from RESERVES, is treated has beenin swooping mode".

I looked at the scans of the Blood Tithe pages of the codex, it simply says that Deamons summoned with the Blood Tithe arrive via DS, no mention of reserves or anything.

So first, Deamons from the Blood Tithe arn't in reserves for the obvious reason that they don't exist before the game.

But you can argue that it is the same with Deamons summoned with Malefic powers, so i checked how the Powers where written, it simply said that its an Summon/Evocation( dunno in english whats the term used, in french its Invocation), so i checked page 26 for those, it clearly says "...Summoned units, arrive using the DS rules, this unit is under controle of the player who used the power and its treated like coming from the reserves for rules purposes..."

No where in the Blood tithe rules is there a mention such as this, no where does it says "...units summoned via Blood Tithe, are treated as coming from reserves for rules purpose..." or anything the like.

And a FMC is treated to be in swooping mode only if it comes in DS from reserves.

So if i'm not mistaken a BT or Dp summoned via the Blood Tithe can switch flight modes the turn it comes in DS.

There is also the fact that DS happens at the beginning of the turn, and you change flight mode at the start of your movement phase, and a good thing with 7th Ed( one of the few) is that they made a difference between beginning of the turn, and movement phase, unlike precedent editions.

I'm not certain I agree.. but lets have a think further.

Blood points are used at the start of any friendly turn.
(The axe of ruin however can summon in any phase).

A summoned unit, arrives immediately via deep strike.

The turn Summary (p17 BRB) has the start of the turn as a phase before the movement phase.


Ok deep strike- 162

The first para is about coming from reserves, which doesn't apply so we will ignore that.

The rules for placing models are fine, and will work the same for each bullet.

Ok- "In the Movement Phase during which they arrive, Deep striking units may not move further, other than to disembark from a deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one"

This is a biggy, summoned units aren't coming in the movement phase, so there is a question as to whether this restriction even applies.

The next para about ruins applies.

The next para about shooting phases and assault phases assumedly apply.

transports we can ignore, Mishaps would work the same way.

We also need FMC deployment.

If a FMC arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in swooping mode (I hate this rule)

I don't think the difference in wording between 'Deep Strike Reserve' and 'Deep Strike' is relevant here.

But I do think that as summoning happens before the movement phase, there is no restriction on moving in the movement phase after summoning. So you could change flight modes (but not assault).

That's clearly a loophole.

But then again regular reserves also come in at the start of the turn- so the wording doesn't work for normal deep strike.

The thing is that nothing says that a FMC cannot change its flight mode when it DS.

it just says that it is treated as been swooping, it doesn't say that you can't change, just that if you don't do anything, it stays like this.

Its something i think that was implemented so that people would stop have arguments if one of them forgot to declare that the FMC that came from DS, was actually swooping or not.

i saw many arguments starting because of that, when one player had a DPrince coming in DS, when the shooting phase of the foe came, the guy says that he will Jink and that he only hits on 6's, while no one heard him declare that the Prince was swooping or that he forgot, because for him it was natural to have the prince in swooping mode when it came via DS.

But with the FMC paragraphe on the deployement methode no where does it says that you can't change flight mode in the same turn or that you need to be able to move to do so.

Simply that by defaults, it is in swooping mode.

" at the start of its move, a FMC must declare whether it is swooping or gliding until the start of its next turn"

"If a FMC arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in swooping mode"

"in the movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.. "

It is an odd conflict about FMC needing to move to continue swooping; however the rules are quite clear. Before any movement occurs, you need to declare whether you are swooping or gliding. To deep strike, you must declare that you are swooping. This will then be in effect until your next turn. Oddly and poorly thought out for the Daemonkin, as it would seem rather inefficient. However, it's also quite clear and unambiguous. There's also the greater restriction on charging the turn you come in from reserves, which is effectively what is happening. So no way are you getting a charge off, no matter what you do, on the turn you are conjured.

Thats not what i'm saying, of course the Ds rules are clear on that.

What i'm saying si that a FMC thats comes into play via DS, doesn't have to wait two turns before being able to assault.

Also nothing makes you declare that the FMC is swooping, nothing says that you have to declare it as swooping, it just says that you treat it like it is swooping like in" allready swooping from precedent turn".

Also its not because something cannot move during the movement phase that it ignore the movement phase and that its prohibited to do anything, it just cannot move, switching flight modes doesn't require you to move, it only require you to declare what you do.

An example would be that if a FMC is swooping since the precedent turn and you switch to gliding, you don't have to move the model.

In a more concrete way; Turn1 FMC is in swooping, and move 18", turn 2, change to gliding and doesn't move.

The fact that you don't move doesn't prohibite you to switch to gliding, so why would it be different when you DS?, nothing prevents you of doing so.

The way the FMC and DS rule is written is that the model counts as been allready in swooping mode, not that you are obligated to declare it.

Also Deamons from the Deamonkin are not conjured like Deamons from the malefic powers, they simply DS and doesn't count has coming from reserves, contrary to Deamons from malefic powers where it does say that they count as comin from reserves.

Now where i'm going with this is not that you can assault the same turn you DS'ed that would be absurde to claim that, but you don't have to wait two whole turns before been able to assault like people though.

No one is arguing for charging the turn they arrive. They are arguing for a charge the turn after they arrive instead of the turn after that. If you can't change modes of travel the turn they arrive, have fun charging in two more turns, probably after the game is over. If you can change modes the turn you arrive, you'll be able to charge that next turn, which is more than likely going to be turn five.

greytalon666 wrote:
No one is arguing for charging the turn they arrive. They are arguing for a charge the turn after they arrive instead of the turn after that. If you can't change modes of travel the turn they arrive, have fun charging in two more turns, probably after the game is over. If you can change modes the turn you arrive, you'll be able to charge that next turn, which is more than likely going to be turn five.

I think the point he is making is that since bloodtithe summoning happens BEFORE the movement phase, the model deep strikes before the movement phase as well. Therefore, it counts as swooping before the movement phase begins. Once the movement phase starts, you must declare the FMCs flight mode, and you can switch to gliding.

Yes, I agree with that, but Luke1705 does not. He was thinking everyone wanted tithe charges on the first turn lol

Just wanted to be clear on what we were saying.

Took a closer look at it and this is what I've come to:

Both the declaration of your flight mode and the expenditure of blood tithe points occur at the "beginning of your turn". What this means is that you could opt to expend blood points first, and then declare flight modes after that for the summoned models. I don't believe that there is anything prohibiting you from switching flight modes in that manner

Changing flight modes must be declared at the start of your move. Is this permissible if you are not allowed to move?

Actually upon further examination I have to redact my previous statement. This is because changing flight modes says "at the start of [the model's] move" and deep strike into the table is obviously a move. So can you do something "at the start of your move" before you move onto the table? You could, except for the fact that you have to be swooping when you deep strike onto the table. Therefore, you're already locked into swooping for that turn since you didn't declare gliding at the start of your move (which again, you couldn't since you had to be swooping to arrive via deep strike)

To sum up the sequence of events:

1) bloodthirster is summoned at the start of the turn via blood tithe, before movement phase

2) bloodthirster must declare swooping to come in via deep strike

3) bloodthirster moves onto the table via deep strike

4) since bloodthirster has already moved this turn, the "start of its move" has already passed and it must wait to alter flight mode until next turn

 luke1705 wrote:
Actually upon further examination I have to redact my previous statement. This is because changing flight modes says "at the start of [the model's] move" and deep strike into the table is obviously a move. So can you do something "at the start of your move" before you move onto the table? You could, except for the fact that you have to be swooping when you deep strike onto the table. Therefore, you're already locked into swooping for that turn since you didn't declare gliding at the start of your move (which again, you couldn't since you had to be swooping to arrive via deep strike)

To sum up the sequence of events:

1) bloodthirster is summoned at the start of the turn via blood tithe, before movement phase

2) bloodthirster must declare swooping to come in via deep strike

3) bloodthirster moves onto the table via deep strike

4) since bloodthirster has already moved this turn, the "start of its move" has already passed and it must wait to alter flight mode until next turn

Could also turn it around. Deep Striking only prevents you from moving "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move further ..."

If the summoning-deep-strike happens outside/before the movement phase, the restriction does not apply.

Thus

1) bloodthirster is summoned at the start of the turn via blood tithe, before movement phase

2) bloodthirster must declare swooping to come in via deep strike

3) bloodthirster is moved onto the table via deep strike

-- Movement phase begins --

4) since the bloodthirster has performed his deep strike outside the movement phase, he can move normally during the movement phase, thus he declares a switch to glide mode AND may move up to 12" as a jump monstrous creature (but still not charge, due to having changed "modes").

Yep I can see both sides; however I tend to try and take the least advantageous side until I'm certain of how it works. Also, just a feeling here, but I doubt that GW intended for a pre-movement phase deep strike. RAW that may be how they wrote it; however it's a bit of a stretch to me to think that it's actually RAI. That's merely my HIWPI, though, and not a rules stance of course. It just tips me over to the one side. Who knows, maybe GW will release a FAQ one day and clarify it (ha)


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I mean, it's not so crazy to think that it could work that way - it's just a rather vague line in the sand to draw and say "I deep strike before the movement phase starts and therefore can act as if I didn't deep strike in at all, except for charging restrictions".

FWIW, I do hope that's how they clarify it to work (or TOs rule it to work) as it goes a long way towards the viability of that army in general

Not saying this is how it should be played. Just saying it could be read that way.

And it could be relevant with to late-game summoning-for-objectives too. Good blood tithe-points to spare in turn 6? Summon some Flesh Hounds AND move them 12" and fleet-run them? Sounds like good reach for objectives or line breaker, if that is how the rule could be interpreted.

Well you guys seems to make a confusion.

be it through the blood tithe summon or norma Deep Strike, The units comes into play in the Beginning of the turn "phase", wich GW was really lazy to name since other games with this system name it "Upkeep phase" "Initiative phase" or something else.

If you read page 17 of the rule book you see that a turn is segmented in 6 phases.

1-beginning of the turn.
2-Movement phase
3-Psychic phase.
4-Shooting phase.
5-Assault phase( wich contains the fight sub-phase)
6-End of the turn.

Units with the Deep strike rule, come into play in the Begining of the Turn "phase", thats when the "movement" of the DS happens.

Then the unit enters the movement phase, now just to be clear, there is no way that the model that DS'ed can Move further or assault the same turn, the DS rules are very clear on that.

But eve, though the DS rules says that you can't move during the movement phase, it doesn't say that the model cannot do anything else in the movement phase, or that it ignores the movement phase, or that the model doesn't get a movement phase.

Just "don't move", wich is not a requirement to be able to switch flight mode.

Also the rules about FMC in DS, doesn't say " the player have to declare that the FMC is in swooping", it says that the FMC is TREATED as been swooping.

Just like a FMC that was deployed on the table goes, turn 1 in swooping and then at the beginning of its movement phase turn 2, it is treated as Swooping still, and you simply declare that you change or not.

All this only means that a BT or DP or even any other FMC for the matter that comes in DS, can assault next turn like any other unit that DS, and is not obligated to wait an Extra turn before been able to do so.

If you read P162 of the BRB, it says that you need to Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves.

So, if you are stating that they are in reserve, if they are being summoned, then you can bring them in on a 3+ roll?

Or are the Bloodthirsters not in reserve and therefore not in Deep strike reserve? And if they arent in Deep Strike Reserve, then they dont need to be swooping (putting aside the valid argument of changing flight modes after deepstriking.)

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
[...]Then the unit enters the movement phase, now just to be clear, there is no way that the model that DS'ed can Move further or assault the same turn, the DS rules are very clear on that.[...]

I think you are wrong there. There is no rule prohibiting the Bloodthirster to move.
BRB on Deep Striking:
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one."

The Bloodthirster didn't arrive during a Movement phase, so there is no "[...] Movement phase during which they arrive. [...]". So the Movement phase after that non-existing Movement phase, there is no restriction on moving.

 Hansisaf wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
[...]Then the unit enters the movement phase, now just to be clear, there is no way that the model that DS'ed can Move further or assault the same turn, the DS rules are very clear on that.[...]

I think you are wrong there. There is no rule prohibiting the Bloodthirster to move.
BRB on Deep Striking:
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one."

The Bloodthirster didn't arrive during a Movement phase, so there is no "[...] Movement phase during which they arrive. [...]". So the Movement phase after that non-existing Movement phase, there is no restriction on moving.

So that line is entirely irrelevant in all situations? Or could they have possibly meant the movement of the turn in which they arrive *an entirely possible meaning to that sentence that doesn't completely invalidate it in all situations).

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Hansisaf wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
[...]Then the unit enters the movement phase, now just to be clear, there is no way that the model that DS'ed can Move further or assault the same turn, the DS rules are very clear on that.[...]

I think you are wrong there. There is no rule prohibiting the Bloodthirster to move.
BRB on Deep Striking:
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one."

The Bloodthirster didn't arrive during a Movement phase, so there is no "[...] Movement phase during which they arrive. [...]". So the Movement phase after that non-existing Movement phase, there is no restriction on moving.

So that line is entirely irrelevant in all situations? Or could they have possibly meant the movement of the turn in which they arrive *an entirely possible meaning to that sentence that doesn't completely invalidate it in all situations).

It doesn't invalidate in all situations. You'll be Deep Striking during the Movement phase usually (Deep Striking normal Reserve units).

RAW, the way I see it, it doesn't apply.
RAI, I believe GW just forgot about that FMC's are in Swooping mode when they arrive, so they probably intended for the Bloodthirster to be around for one turn before it can charge. Same goes for any other FMC being summoned.

I think you need to recheck when reserves happen.

 luke1705 wrote:
Actually upon further examination I have to redact my previous statement. This is because changing flight modes says "at the start of [the model's] move" and deep strike into the table is obviously a move. So can you do something "at the start of your move" before you move onto the table? You could, except for the fact that you have to be swooping when you deep strike onto the table. Therefore, you're already locked into swooping for that turn since you didn't declare gliding at the start of your move (which again, you couldn't since you had to be swooping to arrive via deep strike)

To sum up the sequence of events:

1) bloodthirster is summoned at the start of the turn via blood tithe, before movement phase

2) bloodthirster must declare swooping to come in via deep strike

3) bloodthirster moves onto the table via deep strike

4) since bloodthirster has already moved this turn, the "start of its move" has already passed and it must wait to alter flight mode until next turn

When you say it is "obvious" that deep striking is a move. Where in the rules does it say deep striking is a move? Or is that just your interpretation? Also the rules say you switch modes "at the start of your move" not "when your model moves" which to me sounds like at the start of one's movement step where he moves his models, which happens after blood tithe is spend and bloodthirster is summoned..therefore it can change.

You cannot move further requires that ds is a move.

Just called customer service...while they told me they cannot directly rule on things, but I presented both sides of the arguement to him and he strongly implied that the blood tithe summoning bloodthirster is a unique rule and that it should be treated differently from the usual deep strike rule in the rulebook, due to when it occurs and that it trumps rulebook.

You do realize that GW's customer service has no special insight into the rules? That's why the forum tenets say that only the rulebooks and the current FAQs are official sources of information.

 Ghaz wrote:
You do realize that GW's customer service has no special insight into the rules? That's why the forum tenets say that only the rulebooks and the current FAQs are official sources of information.

It may not be the answer to the discussion but it is worth noting at least. At least I appreciated hearing it. Now whether that actually changes my opinion (it doesn't because that's what I thought the entire time) is something different. It's just food for thought.

But he should have said such along with that experience.

Yeah sorry I was not trying to present it as a reliable source or anything ( the rep told me as much) just wanted to add to the conversation.

The rep ultimately brought up the arguement of codex trumping rulebook,which i didnt consider before (and i did not see it discussed yet )

Sorry again

Angrygrot wrote:
Yeah sorry I was not trying to present it as a reliable source or anything ( the rep told me as much) just wanted to add to the conversation.

The rep ultimately brought up the arguement of codex trumping rulebook,which i didnt consider before (and i did not see it discussed yet )

Sorry again

Codex vs Rulebook wasn't brought up because it is entirely irrelevant. The codex says nothing about what the BT can or can't do after he DSs in. Only the rulebook tells us this and it says no further movement and you arrive swooping. Case closed.

Taken from thediceabide

"It’s important to note that while similar to summoning Daemons using the conjuration type spells found in Daemonology, it is NOT the same. Conjuration psychic powers specifically state that they treat the models as if it’s coming in from Reserves, hence when you summon a winged greater daemon using Daemonology, it will be swooping (Deep Strike Reserves). This is not the case for the Blood Tithe table, the model does not come from Deep Strike Reserves, nor is it said that it is treated as coming in from reserves in any way, so it does not need to Swoop (Swooping is required when coming in from Deep Strike Reserves), meaning your Bloodthrister can charge the turn after it is summoned (Deep Strike still prevents charging the same turn), instead of 2 turns later as with standard Daemonology."


Food for thought

How do you deep strike without triggering the DS Reserves rules?

Codex trumps rulebook? Codex says deep strike not deep strike reserves, therefore the swooping rule is invalid? Loophole?

Does the codex say you don't use the DS reserves rules or is it silent on the matter? The codex has to tell you to do something that the BRB forbids for codex vs rulebook to come into it.

From 'Deep Strike' in the Warhammer 40K main rulebook:

In order for a unit to Deep Strike, all the models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.

In order for their to be a conflict, the codex would have to specifically state that they are Deep Striking even though they did not start the game in Reserve.

 Ghaz wrote:
From 'Deep Strike' in the Warhammer 40K main rulebook:

In order for a unit to Deep Strike, all the models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.

In order for their to be a conflict, the codex would have to specifically state that they are Deep Striking even though they did not start the game in Reserve.

That seems to apply to units with the deep strike rule that are not summoned...that would imply that my bloodthirster that I may or may not summon needs to be put in reserve just in case I do? Ehhhhh....

No. It applies to all units using the Deep Strike rule unless specifically stated otherwise. Please provide where that exception is stated.

In the codex it says the unit immediately deep strikes...not from reserves...

Angrygrot wrote:
Codex trumps rulebook? Codex says deep strike not deep strike reserves, therefore the swooping rule is invalid? Loophole?

Also if you're trying to find ways to make your interpretation correct you are on dangerous grounds. You're not trying to figure out how the rules work your trying to find a loophole to abuse which is not a great attitude to have. The rules here are clear, are they what Daemonkin players wantthem to be? No. Is the wanted rule OP? Again no. But it is not the rules, I want tac marines to have relentless, its not OP and fixes one of 40k's most iconic units. However it is not the rules.


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Angrygrot wrote:
In the codex it says the unit immediately deep strikes...not from reserves...

It doesn't say not from reserves, it remains silent on reserves. We know it is something they do immediately so we know we don't have to roll for them and didn't have to declare they Werner in DS reserve during deployment. These are the things that the codex contradicts and therefore overrides. Not whether they are coming from DS reserve.

Angrygrot wrote:
In the codex it says the unit immediately deep strikes...not from reserves...

And the rules for Deep Strike says from Reserves, regardless of whether the codex mentions Reserves or not. So are you intentionally ignoring a part of the Deep Strike rules with nothing telling you that you can?

Another way to try to explain this. The codex says CSMs are Bs4, does this override snap shots? It says they are BS4 and doesn't mention snap shots. Your line of thinking would result in literally everyone always snap shooting at full BS...

Whether the unit was placed in reserve or not is irrelevant. The rules for Deep Strike clearly equate "arriving by Deep Strike" with arriving by "Deep Strike Reserve":

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

The designer's note for units being summoned clearly states:

"When a rule indicates that a unit is summoned, a new unit under your control immediately arrives via Deep Strike..."

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Whether the unit was placed in reserve or not is irrelevant. The rules for Deep Strike clearly equate "arriving by Deep Strike" with arriving by "Deep Strike Reserve":

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

The designer's note for units being summoned clearly states:

"When a rule indicates that a unit is summoned, a new unit under your control immediately arrives via Deep Strike..."

Your first quote is telling players that they must declare the Deep Strike intent when they are placing the unit in Reserves, which you do not do.

The rule says to immediately place a Bloodthirster via Deep Strike. Not Deep Strike Reserves, Deep Strike. Deep Strike Reserves adds an entirely new level of rules that disallows certain actions. Deep Strike is different than Deep Strike Reserves. I know your first quote appears to say otherwise, but it only references them as the same when you are placing a unit in Reserves, which you never do with the Bloodthirster.

Don't have the book in front of me, but if i recall,

1. the rule book says that they may not make a move after deep striking
2. flight mode is determined as they begin moving.

then it seems they are set to swoop by default to answer that issue, since they are not allowed to make a further movement and need to have a flight mode.

slamma wrote:
Don't have the book in front of me, but if i recall,

1. the rule book says that they may not make a move after deep striking
2. flight mode is determined as they begin moving.

then it seems they are set to swoop by default to answer that issue, since they are not allowed to make a further movement and need to have a flight mode.

Correct. A unit that arrives via Deep Strike in the Movement Phase may not make any additional moves. However, the unit does not arrive in the Movement Phase, it arrives immediately in the Start of Your Turn Phase. Normal units arriving from Reserves must move onto the table- often by Deep Strike- and so cannot move further. But because the Bloodthirster does not arrive in the Movement Phase AND is not a Reserves the act of Deep Strike does not cause a move. Therefore, it may change its flight mode.

what units can arrive by deep strike during the movement phase?
perhaps the 'thirster summoned by that special axe could, but all of the rest (to my knowledge) come in before the movement phase or in the psychic phase. (it is possible for units to arrive during the shooting phase with the warp storm, but if i recall, the heralds and such are not specifically deep striking)

what am i missing here?
it appears the blood tithed 'thirster is the same as any other FMC arriving via deep strike, and is stuck unable to move and defaulted to swooping. it can't switch flight modes because it is unable to begin a movement…

that seems super lame for something like a bloodthirster to be a bit worthless due to that, especially since the army has a special rule that rewards you with a bloodthirster by collecting 8 points… but it does appear to be rules as written.

On the matter of summonings been conjurations.

Conjurations is a type of Psy power, in the corresponding page it specificaly says that a unit conjured enter play via Deep Strike and that it counts as coming from the reserves for rules purposes.

Now this rule here give a specific on where the Summons comes from, reserves.

Blood Tithe isn't a Psy power, neither is it a conjuration ir is there any mention of the conjuration rules, it simply says that units summoned with the Blood tithe enters play via DS immediatly( so in the beginning of the turn phase, since its when you spend yur Blood tithe points).

Now it absolutly don't mean that units coming in like this ignores the usual restrictions from deep strike.

My point is that, you still can change your flight mode when you DS a FMC, since the change doesn't require you to be able to move, the rule also don't force the player to declare he is swooping, the FMC is trated has been allready in swooping mode, and nothing prevents you to do something else if you can in a given phase, for example, if a unit/model is affected by a rule or power or anything during the game that says " the model/unit cannot shoot during the shoothing phase" does it prevents you from running?, no.

The Flight mode change is the same, but you still cannot move further and cannot assault in the same turn.

it just means that you only wait one turn after DS to be able to assault not two.

slamma wrote:what units can arrive by deep strike during the movement phase?
perhaps the 'thirster summoned by that special axe could, but all of the rest (to my knowledge) come in before the movement phase or in the psychic phase. (it is possible for units to arrive during the shooting phase with the warp storm, but if i recall, the heralds and such are not specifically deep striking)

what am i missing here?
it appears the blood tithed 'thirster is the same as any other FMC arriving via deep strike, and is stuck unable to move and defaulted to swooping. it can't switch flight modes because it is unable to begin a movement…

that seems super lame for something like a bloodthirster to be a bit worthless due to that, especially since the army has a special rule that rewards you with a bloodthirster by collecting 8 points… but it does appear to be rules as written.

It comes in via Deep Strike before the Movement Phase as all units that Deep Strike do.

Now. The difference is, those other units that arrive via Deep Strike come in from Reserves, which have a different set of rules that our Bloodthirster does not follow because it is not in Reserves, nor was it placed in Reserves, nor was it ever placed in Reserves, nor could it even be in Reserves. Reserves is where the whole movement thing comes in. Deep Striking is not a move, it never says it is in the rules. Deep Striking From Reserves is a move because Reserves specifically state that the unit moves. The Bloodthirster is not in Reserves so its move never starts until the Movement Phase, where it may change its flight mode to Gliding.

sorry to be an awful piggy back double posting monsterperson, but in case people are not reading both threads, perhaps this is noteworthy to add here:


on page 26, under conjuration, which if i recall is how the blood tithe works, the text reads (in bold in my book):
"the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike (pg 162)… and is treated as having arrived from reserves for all rules purposes."

what the Deep Strike rules actually say is that the deep striking unit counts as having moved in the Movement Phase. The BRB also explicitly defines actions occurring at the start of the turn to be resolved separately to, and before the Movement Phase. So when summoned by the Blood Tithe the Bloodthirster deep strikes in at the start of the turn (and is swooping) and has therefore not yet moved.

Whether you consider the "counts as having moved" part of the Deep Strike rules as the model actually moving (despite remaining physically stationary on the table) is another issue, but if you think that this is the case then there is nothing to prevent the Bloodthirster changing flight modes in the movement phases as per the rules for FMC, as the start of its move occurs during this phase. If you consider the Bloodthirster not to have actually moved in the movement phase but just "counts as", then there's nothing to stop it changing flight modes in the Assault phase as part of a Run move (which would then be the start of its move).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

slamma wrote:
sorry to be an awful piggy back double posting monsterperson, but in case people are not reading both threads, perhaps this is noteworthy to add here:


on page 26, under conjuration, which if i recall is how the blood tithe works, the text reads (in bold in my book):
"the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike (pg 162)… and is treated as having arrived from reserves for all rules purposes."

Summoning a Bloodthirster via the Blood Tithe has nothing to do with Conjuration. Khorne hates psykers.

ah, i stand corrected there on the conjuration issue.

still, the daemonkin book does use "arrives via deep strike" (http://forum.spikeybits.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3557&d=1427378627).

and i still see another hole...

we have the text on BRB page 162:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for reserves (pg 135)…"

slamma wrote:
ah, i stand corrected there on the conjuration issue.

still, the daemonkin book does use "arrives via deep strike" (http://forum.spikeybits.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3557&d=1427378627).

and i still see another hole...

we have the text on BRB page 162:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for reserves (pg 135)…"

The Daemonkin Codex (and more specifically the footnote at the bottom of the Blood Tithe table) gives the summoned unit permission to "immediately arrive" via Deep Strike. Codex takes precedence over the BRB and no roll is necessary.

The Daemonkin Codex (and more specifically the footnote at the bottom of the Blood Tithe table) gives the summoned unit permission to "immediately arrive" via Deep Strike. Codex takes precedence over theBRB and no roll is necessary.

Agreed no roll is made as it is automatically passed due to the immediately arrives clause. Where are they arriving from? (Hint: Deepstrike rules tell you the answer)

so the issue can be solved very easily by just checking what the rules referenced actually do:

THE PROBLEM: "If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves, it always counts as being in Swooping mode" (BRB 68)
and also: "At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn."" (ibidem, "Changing flight mode")

Codex: Khorne Daemonkin (appendix, designers note under blood tithe) explicitly states: "When a rule indicates that a unit is summoned, a new unit under your control immediately arrives via Deep Strike within range of the specified unit(s) on the board."

"Arriving by Deep Strike" (BRB 162) tells us to "Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves (pg. 135) and then deploy them as follows: [...]"


So, how does "Arriving from Reserves" then work? BRB 135, referenced above, says: "When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving onto the table as describes below [...] you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move".

Rolling is skipped because summoned units arrive "immediately". Deployment after arrival is explicitly stated to be a move.

CONCLUSION: a summoned FMC "arrives" in Swooping mode, but then moves to deploy on the table, immediately declaring what flight mode to use until the start of its next turn.
It cannot charge during the same turn it was summoned (for two reasons: coming from reserves and changing flight modes), but is free to do so next turn.

END OF ARGUMENT------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The reason that there is a "default" mode for arriving FMCs is simply to prevent the paradox that otherwise it would have no mode at all if not changed.

Because not all units arrive during the start of the player's turn, they would then have "skipped" the moment to decide, which is not elegible.

The intent seems to be to always let the player decide what mode to use, but grant the enemy 1 turn (not 2!) of shooting before charges (as it is with all other forms of deployment).

the argument about the phrase "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one." (BRB 162) [amended: does have nothing to do with this argument]

Note that a BT summoned from the axe of ruin during the enemy turn thus arrives and moves (changing modes) to deploy even before his own turn.



simple really.

 Nehekhare wrote:
so the issue can be solved very easily by just checking what the rules referenced actually do:

(BRB 162) is based on a misunderstanding: the beginning of the turn is not a phase by itself, but only a singular point within and thus a part of the first phase of the turn (the movement "phase") as per BRB 17, so everything happening at the start of the turn also happens during the movement phase. It is synchronous with the beginning of the movement phase and as such subject to "sequencing" (same page). This btw is further evidence for deep strike deployment being a unit's move for that turn. .

simple really.

During the movement phase?

From P17 under "The Start and End of a Turn"

"During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens 'at the start of your turn'. These are always resolved before your Movement phase."

The Blood Tithe happans at the start of the turn, using the rules, this is before the Movement Phase.

The reason that there is a "default" mode for arriving FMCs is simply to prevent the paradox that otherwise it would have no mode at all if not changed.

The problem I have with your argument is that if, by design, they only wanted a single turn penalty to charging they could have easily have made the default mode gliding.

 Aeon wrote:

 Nehekhare wrote:
so the issue can be solved very easily by just checking what the rules referenced actually do:

(BRB 162) is based on a misunderstanding: the beginning of the turn is not a phase by itself, but only a singular point within and thus a part of the first phase of the turn (the movement "phase") as per BRB 17, so everything happening at the start of the turn also happens during the movement phase. It is synchronous with the beginning of the movement phase and as such subject to "sequencing" (same page). This btw is further evidence for deep strike deployment being a unit's move for that turn. .

simple really.

During the movement phase?

From P17 under "The Start and End of a Turn"

"During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens 'at the start of your turn'. These are always resolved before your Movement phase."

The Blood Tithe happans at the start of the turn, using the rules, this is before the Movement Phase.

And it is quite clear it's before the Movement Phase.

Nehekhare is right for literally every other instance I can think of for Deep Striking. However, in this case it's different.

The summoning of a Bloodthirster via Conjuration is different from Daemonkin because it clearly states that it is having counted as being in Reserves. However, the Daemonkin one does not. Therefore it is not in Reserves. Everything you've quoted has to do with putting units into Reserves and the process of bringing them on from Reserves. I saw nothing in there that stated that a Bloodthirster Deep Striking without being placed in Reserves counts as coming on from Reserves. Why would the Conjuration Bloodthirster specifically be noted as having came from Reserves, yet this one would not at all? There is an important distinction here that I feel is being lost.

I don't get how this conversation has gone on so long. Tyranid, Daemon and CSM players all tolled over the rules for hours trying to figure out how to make assault FMCs as good as they were in 6th. Daemons have been summoning greater daemons since 7th dropped, and the rules haven't changed since then. You arrive in the air, you land next turn, you assault the turn after that. This is why the black mace prince, melee hive tyrants, combat LoC and bloodthirsters are all but gone. The only flying MCs you see now either hop around with shrouded or shoot/summon.

This book has no new rules on how the FMC arrives, if GW wanted it to be able to assault the turn after it came in, or allow FMCs to change flight mode on the turn they arrive from deep strike, it would be more clear in the rules.

Aeon wrote:
From P17 under "The Start and End of a Turn"

"During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens 'at the start of your turn'. These are always resolved before your Movement phase."

you are right! the misunderstanding was on my part luckily, it doesn't impact the main argument at all.

Ignatius wrote:
The summoning of a Bloodthirster via Conjuration is different from Daemonkin because it clearly states that it is having counted as being in Reserves. However, the Daemonkin one does not. Therefore it is not in Reserves.

That is a logical fallacy. A missing yes does not equal a no.

I already solved this agument in my sidenote (spoiler) above. C:KDK does not need to mention Reserves *again* because units arriving from deep strike are generally considered to "always begin the game in Reserve" (BRB162).
Deep Strike itself is stated there as "sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve". Conjuring mentioning it explicitly is actually superfluous, yet can be considered as precedence.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
This book has no new rules on how the FMC arrives, if GW wanted it to be able to assault the turn after it came in, or allow FMCs to change flight mode on the turn they arrive from deep strike, it would be more clear in the rules.

Perhaps you missed the new rule detailing how a Bloodthirster summoned via the Blood Tithe arrives at the start of the turn before the movement phase, the implications of which for changing flight modes within that turn have been spelled out numerous times above. Or perhaps you're just ignoring it because you don't like it.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Perhaps you missed the new rule detailing how a Bloodthirster summoned via the Blood Tithe arrives at the start of the turn before the movement phase, the implications of which for changing flight modes within that turn have been spelled out numerous times above. Or perhaps you're just ignoring it because you don't like it.

Implications are not new rules. Start of phase, psychic phase, movement phase it doesn't matter. Arriving via deepstrike is a Flying MC's movement for that turn and they come in soaring.

If they wanted Flying MCs to charge next turn, Flying MCs would come in gliding.

 adamsouza wrote:

The problem I have with your argument is that if, by design, they only wanted a single turn penalty to charging they could have easily have made the default mode gliding.

no need. it can't charge anyway because of entering from reserves.
But it makes sense to DS swooping because it thus avoids mishaps from being placed over other models (BRB 69).
I think the idea behind it was flying creatures entering play from the skies above, not suddenly popping up close to the ground (although the latter might very well apply to summoned daemons).
Think of it as the DoW1 animation of the Bloodthirster summoning, slowly rising to the sky, then exploding in a shower of gore, deciding whether to stay aloft or fall to the ground afterwards.

However, maybe ask the other way around: why do you think would they prevent FMCs 2 turns from charging when everything else in the game and all other ways of deployment only has a 1 turn penalty?

 Nehekhare wrote:

However, maybe ask the other way around: why do you think would they prevent FMCs 2 turns from charging when everything else in the game and all other ways of deployment only has a 1 turn penalty?

Change up the meta and sell some more models is my guess. Same reason for every big rules change that comes through.


On topic, reserves come in before the movement phase, placing them on the table is their movement. In the case of a bloodthirster, its movement is deep strike, in which is always must arrive flying. I wish it wasn't so, I would love to plop down BTs that could do something aside from get shot to death. There is no ands ifs or buts about it. This is almost as bad as the thread where a dude was arguing that a pen hit (before cover save) would take out quantum shielding.

EDIT: I've re-read the rules and flight modes can never be declared twice for one turn even if you were allowed to move. DS deployment as a move is irrelevant,

 gwarsh41 wrote:

Change up the meta and sell some more models is my guess. Same reason for every big rules change that comes through.

On topic, reserves come in before the movement phase, placing them on the table is their movement. In the case of a bloodthirster, its movement is deep strike, in which is always must arrive flying. I wish it wasn't so, I would love to plop down BTs that could do something aside from get shot to death. There is no ands ifs or buts about it. This is almost as bad as the thread where a dude was arguing that a pen hit (before cover save) would take out quantum shielding.

the BRB was written long before the new BT and i doubt that making him worse would boost sales.

on topic i don't see where you would base your identification of arrival and deployment move on when the rules as written place them in a very clear and precise order:

"When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving onto the table as describes below [...] you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move". (BRB 135)

if deployment move happens after the (swooping) arrival, as you yourself state above, it obviously is an elegible "move" for deciding to change your flight mode.

 Nehekhare wrote:
However, maybe ask the other way around: why do you think would they prevent FMCs 2 turns from charging when everything else in the game and all other ways of deployment only has a 1 turn penalty?

I would just like to point out that this was a thing ever since 7th Edition came out, not something brand new in this Codex.

FMC need 2 Turns to charge if they are swooping. That is just 7th ed ruling, so they are not "worse"?

Well, would anyone then care to elaborate what rule exactly prohibits an FMC to change his flight mode in the same turn it arrived?

Because the deployment paragraph on BRB 68 sure only taks about starting modes at arrival, which obviously happens before a "move", where change is declared.

 Nehekhare wrote:

Aeon wrote:
From P17 under "The Start and End of a Turn"

"During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens 'at the start of your turn'. These are always resolved before your Movement phase."

you are right! the misunderstanding was on my part luckily, it doesn't impact the main argument at all.

Ignatius wrote:
The summoning of a Bloodthirster via Conjuration is different from Daemonkin because it clearly states that it is having counted as being in Reserves. However, the Daemonkin one does not. Therefore it is not in Reserves.

That is a logical fallacy. A missing yes does not equal a no.

I already solved this agument in my sidenote (spoiler) above. C:KDK does not need to mention Reserves *again* because units arriving from deep strike are generally considered to "always begin the game in Reserve" (BRB162).
Deep Strike itself is stated there as "sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve". Conjuring mentioning it explicitly is actually superfluous, yet can be considered as precedence.

GENERALLY considered. It's not stated as such in the Daemonkin codex so why are you applying it here? There is a precedent for the requirement for the "Reserves" part being added to the end of "Deep Strike" as it is with Conjuration. It's not there in this case yet you want to just add it on for convenience?

1. What does the rule tell you to do? Deep Strike.

2. Does it tell you to Deep Strike from Reserves like it does in other rules? No. So what do you do. You Deep Strike.

3a. Does the Bloodthirster Deep Strike from Reserves? No.

3b. Does it Deep Strike? Yes.

4a. Is Deep Striking from Reserve a move? Yes.

4b. Is Deep Striking a move? No.

5. Has it started its move? No, because it came in as a Deep Strike, not a Deep Strike from Reserves.

So while it can't move or assault, it hasn't begun its movement phase yet and may change its flight mode.

 Ignatius wrote:
3b. Is Deep Striking a move? No.

It's not?
Are you really sure about that?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
3b. Is Deep Striking a move? No.

It's not?
Are you really sure about that?

Here's my argument why it's not:

Arriving from Reserve
...When Reserves arrive, pick one of your units and deploy it, MOVING it onto the table as described below...

Moving on From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's table edge.

This passage tells us that there are specific verbages used to describe this process. Arrives, is NOT the same as moving, and is also not the same as deploying. When Reserves arrive, they are forced to make their move immediately. Deep Striking Reserves also happen before the Movement, but because of the usage of "Reserves" in the rule, they must also make a move onto the board, regardless of what the Deep Strike rule itself says.

So let's look at Deep Strike, which our Bloodthirster does.

Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows (My note here: we do not roll for our Bloodthirster, so we do not follow this part of the rule and rolling for Reserves. Our unit is not a Reserve because we do not declare it as such in the deployment phase, (which is necessary to have a Reserve) or must be specifically mentioned like the "Conjuration" Malefic Power says)
-First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model's final position...
-Next, the unit's remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact... (yada yada yada)
-Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain

There is no mention in the Deep Strike rule of moving, rather Deep Strike units usually move due to the requirement to do so in the "Reserves" section I quoted above. As such, arriving via Deep Strike does not in itself cause a unit to move. Rather arriving from Deep Strike Reserve does, which our Bloodthirster does not do.

I feel that many are getting confused because Deep Striking from Reserves happens so often in the context that it is just assumed to mean the same thing as Deep Strike.

 Ignatius wrote:

1. What does the rule tell you to do? Deep Strike.

2. "Deep strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)" (BRB 162)

why do you insist these are different rule?

 Ignatius wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
3b. Is Deep Striking a move? No.

It's not?
Are you really sure about that?

Here's my argument why it's not:

You're missing the fact that Deep Striking often has nothing to do with Reserves (unless you think Gate of Infinity temporarily pops you into Reserves, the the Necron teleport-thingy).
You're also missing a rules quote from the Deep Strike rules:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

If you cannot move "any further" that means what has happened is a move.

Nehekhare wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

1. What does the rule tell you to do? Deep Strike.

2. "Deep strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)" (BRB 162)

why do you insist these are different rule?

Because in the context the rule is being used is for Reserves. If a unit arrives via Deep Strike in Reserves, of course it's sometimes going to be called Deep Strike Reserves. If it's not Reserves, it's not going to be called that.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
3b. Is Deep Striking a move? No.

It's not?
Are you really sure about that?

Here's my argument why it's not:

You're missing the fact that Deep Striking often has nothing to do with Reserves (unless you think Gate of Infinity temporarily pops you into Reserves, the the Necron teleport-thingy).
You're also missing a rules quote from the Deep Strike rules:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

If you cannot move "any further" that means what has happened is a move.

I've made great pains to illustrate that Deep Striking often has nothing to do with Reserves. I've said that a couple times- and am still being contended on it (see first part of my response).

You have uncovered the only part of my argument that I have no real answer for, as I am looking for a reason that "further" would be in there. Stand by and I'll find something. If not, then I will understand the limitation of my argument and will say it as such.

I dunno, people have been talking about this since the start of 7th…

the deep striking rules clearly say that "deep strike" and "deep strike reserves" are the same thing. that deep striking follows the rules for reserves, and then the rules for deep striking. there is also a precedent that arriving from reserves is a move. and there is declaring flight modes at the start of a movement, but deep striking models can't make a movement. the FMC needs to have a mode to be in though, so it is set to swoop.

it appears that if you are playing the deep strike game, you are always going to be involved with reserves.

the better precedent might be set by heralds that result from rolling an 11 on the warp storm table, which says nothing about deep striking. those units do simply appear if i recall correctly. the wording in that case is quite different (and, thankfully, they don't have wings….).

i want to be able to use a 'thirster that way too. i think the rule is lame, but it just seems to be the case here that the tithed 'thirster needs to wait a while.

out of curiosity, what happens to the tithed 'thirster if it mishaps and rolls 4+ on the table? does it go into ongoing reserves?

 Ignatius wrote:
Our unit is not a Reserve because we do not declare it as such in the deployment phase, (which is necessary to have a Reserve)

it's exactly the other way around: "In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, [...] the unit must start the game in Reserve (pg 135)." (BRB 162)

Arrival per deep strike is declared "when placing the unit in reserve" (BRB 162), i.e. when summoning it.

Such are the rules for Deep Strike. There is no other Deep Strike besides it.

 Ignatius wrote:
I've made great pains to illustrate that Deep Striking often has nothing to do with Reserves. I've said that a couple times- and am still being contended on it (see first part of my response).

You have uncovered the only part of my argument that I have no real answer for, as I am looking for a reason that "further" would be in there. Stand by and I'll find something. If not, then I will understand the limitation of my argument and will say it as such.

You are correct, on both points. Arriving by Deep Strike (not necessarily from Reserves) is indeed considered as a move, by the word "Further". It may arguably not be a "standard" move but a "Deep Strike move", but it is most definitely "a move", at least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nehekhare wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Our unit is not a Reserve because we do not declare it as such in the deployment phase, (which is necessary to have a Reserve)

it's exactly the other way around: "In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, [...] the unit must start the game in Reserve (pg 135)." (BRB 162)

Arrival per deep strike is declared "when placing the unit in reserve" (BRB 162), i.e. when summoning it.

Such are the rules for Deep Strike. There is no other Deep Strike besides it.

I would recommend you read the rules for the Space Marine Storm Raven, and then re-consider the assertion that you can only Deep Strike from Reserves

 Nehekhare wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Our unit is not a Reserve because we do not declare it as such in the deployment phase, (which is necessary to have a Reserve)

it's exactly the other way around: "In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, [...] the unit must start the game in Reserve (pg 135)." (BRB 162)

Arrival per deep strike is declared "when placing the unit in reserve" (BRB 162), i.e. when summoning it.

And? I already understand that a unit is declared as Deep Striking when it is placed into reserve. I think you're misunderstanding the rule you've quoted.

You never place the Bloodthirster into Reserves, so it's not a reserve.

Also even if the Deep Strike is a move, there's nothing saying it cannot change flight modes. Changing of flight modes is forbidden for an FMC coming from Reserves: "If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves, it always counts as being in Swooping mode".

The Bloodthirster doesn't arrive from reserves, so is only limited to not being able to move or assault as the Deep Strike rule says.

 Ignatius wrote:
You never place the Bloodthirster into Reserves, so it's not a reserve.

Then you can't use the Deep Strike rules, because they require a model to start the game in Reserve and you have no rule that specifically overrides that requirement.

 Ignatius wrote:

 Nehekhare wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Our unit is not a Reserve because we do not declare it as such in the deployment phase, (which is necessary to have a Reserve)

it's exactly the other way around: "In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, [...] the unit must start the game in Reserve (pg 135)." (BRB 162)

Arrival per deep strike is declared "when placing the unit in reserve" (BRB 162), i.e. when summoning it.

And? I already understand that a unit is declared as Deep Striking when it is placed into reserve. I think you're misunderstanding the rule you've quoted.

You never place the Bloodthirster into Reserves, so it's not a reserve.

Also even if the Deep Strike is a move, there's nothing saying it cannot change flight modes. Changing of flight modes is forbidden for an FMC coming from Reserves: "If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves, it always counts as being in Swooping mode".

The Bloodthirster doesn't arrive from reserves, so is only limited to not being able to move or assault as the Deep Strike rule says.

The problem with tha rule, as i highlighted in another thread is that there is no such thing as:

Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves

A) Flying Monstrous Creature arrives from Deep Strike Reserves.
B) Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves.

Pick your poison, but i'd go with "B" from the large amount of precedent.

When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike,

If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike,

Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Perhaps you missed the new rule detailing how a Bloodthirster summoned via the Blood Tithe arrives at the start of the turn before the movement phase, the implications of which for changing flight modes within that turn have been spelled out numerous times above. Or perhaps you're just ignoring it because you don't like it.

Implications are not new rules. Start of phase, psychic phase, movement phase it doesn't matter. Arriving via deepstrike is a Flying MC's movement for that turn and they come in soaring.

If they wanted Flying MCs to charge next turn, Flying MCs would come in gliding.

No, the new rule is that the Bloodthirster arrives before the movement phase. Stop twisting other peoples words. And the existing rules are that any movement associated with Deep Strike happens during the movement phase. As the model is on the table before this happens you can elect to change flight mode at the start of that move.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
You never place the Bloodthirster into Reserves, so it's not a reserve.

Then you can't use the Deep Strike rules, because they require a model to start the game in Reserve and you have no rule that specifically overrides that requirement.

I would be quite curious as to how you follow the rules in "Skies of Fury", Space Marine Codex, StormRaven Gunships?

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Perhaps you missed the new rule detailing how a Bloodthirster summoned via the Blood Tithe arrives at the start of the turn before the movement phase, the implications of which for changing flight modes within that turn have been spelled out numerous times above. Or perhaps you're just ignoring it because you don't like it.

Implications are not new rules. Start of phase, psychic phase, movement phase it doesn't matter. Arriving via deepstrike is a Flying MC's movement for that turn and they come in soaring.

If they wanted Flying MCs to charge next turn, Flying MCs would come in gliding.

No, the new rule is that the Bloodthirster arrives before the movement phase. Stop twisting other peoples words. And the existing rules are that any movement associated with Deep Strike happens during the movement phase. As the model is on the table before this happens you can elect to change flight mode at the start of that move.

Which, if you take that argument forward, means that all FMCs are able to switch movement modes the turn they arrive. As Reserves arrive prior to the movement phase, etc.

This argument literally ignores the rule that Deep Striking is movement, and you're prohibited from moving further. Since you cannot move further you cannot change flight modes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ignatius wrote:
Also even if the Deep Strike is a move, there's nothing saying it cannot change flight modes. Changing of flight modes is forbidden for an FMC coming from Reserves: "If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves, it always counts as being in Swooping mode".

The Bloodthirster doesn't arrive from reserves, so is only limited to not being able to move or assault as the Deep Strike rule says.

And when would the Bloodthirster change flight modes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
You never place the Bloodthirster into Reserves, so it's not a reserve.

Then you can't use the Deep Strike rules, because they require a model to start the game in Reserve and you have no rule that specifically overrides that requirement.

I would be quite curious as to how you follow the rules in "Skies of Fury", Space Marine Codex, StormRaven Gunships?

You and I (and others) have gone over this multiple times before. Please don't derail this thread any further.

rigeld2 wrote:
You and I (and others) have gone over this multiple times before. Please don't derail this thread any further.

No attempt at derailing, but i will answer if the question of "arriving by Deep Strike" forcing a trip to reserves is brought up.

I do not think that being in any form of Reserves is relevant to the current argument as much as the question of "at the start of any of his Turns" being simultaneous with further movement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for an actual "Call" on the matter at hand:

By RaW: You are Deep Striking. The BrB forces Deep Striking FMC to be swooping. In you next movement phase you may elect to Glide, and charge the Turn after that.

By HIWPI: The FMC rule for Deep Striking is assuming you are flying onto the field. Blood Tithe works for a non-FMC Daemon ("summoning"). I do not see why it would be forced to Swoop when being summoned. They might FAQ when pigs fly

"Via" is the means of arrival, "from" is the starting location. the text in the rulebook most often uses the word "via" when referring to deep strike.

the book details that "deep strike" and "deep strike reserves" are the same thing.

there is no new rule that i know of, deep strike always happened before the movement phase.

there is a discrepancy where it talks about deep striking during the movement phase, its around the same spot as where it outlines the movement phase early in the rule book (sorry, don't have the book on me and can't point to specifics. my guess is it's in the 20's pages) perhaps you could draw an argument from that paragraph?

(maybe i'm feeding this argument unnecessarily, but i'm trying to act from a neutral space of curiosity)

 Nehekhare wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

1. What does the rule tell you to do? Deep Strike.

2. "Deep strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)" (BRB 162)

why do you insist these are different rule?

Holy out of context quote bat man!

Let me fix that for you:
“When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).”


Now I will rephrase that for you.

"When making cookies, you must declare if they contain chocolate chips (sometimes called chocolate chip cookies)."

Your argument that all cookies are chocolate chip cookies is severely flawed. Not all cookies have chocolate chips, and not all chocolate chips are in cookies, but when used together, they have a specific name, chocolate chip cookies.


There are many mechanics in the game that allow a unit to Deep Strike, very few of them specify Reserves (though it is important to note that the ones which are intended to be treated like reserves are clearly labeled as such, which would be totally redundant if you were correct), so are you arguing that Veil of Darkness, Skies of Blood and Grav-chute insertion allow interceptor? Are you arguing that the old necron FAQ was incorrect and that Deathmarks got to declare a new target every turn? For you to argue that Bloodthirsters must swoop means you must argue that GW intentionally misled us with a FAQ, intended for Interceptor to work on units not entering from Reserves, and that GW thinks all cookies are chocolate chip.

slamma wrote:
the book details that "deep strike" and "deep strike reserves" are the same thing.

This:

 minionboy wrote:

 Nehekhare wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

1. What does the rule tell you to do? Deep Strike.

2. "Deep strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)" (BRB 162)

why do you insist these are different rule?

Holy out of context quote bat man!

Let me fix that for you:
“When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).”


Now I will rephrase that for you.

"When making cookies, you must declare if they contain chocolate chips (sometimes called chocolate chip cookies)."

Your argument that all cookies are chocolate chip cookies is severely flawed. Not all cookies have chocolate chips, and not all chocolate chips are in cookies, but when used together, they have a specific name, chocolate chip cookies.


There are many mechanics in the game that allow a unit to Deep Strike, very few of them specify Reserves (though it is important to note that the ones which are intended to be treated like reserves are clearly labeled as such, which would be totally redundant if you were correct), so are you arguing that Veil of Darkness, Skies of Blood and Grav-chute insertion allow interceptor? Are you arguing that the old necron FAQ was incorrect and that Deathmarks got to declare a new target every turn? For you to argue that Bloodthirsters must swoop means you must argue that GW intentionally misled us with a FAQ, intended for Interceptor to work on units not entering from Reserves, and that GW thinks all cookies are chocolate chip.

"deep strike" and "deep strike reserves" are proven to be two different things.

As such, by current definitions,

 BlackTalos wrote:

The problem with tha rule, as i highlighted in another thread is that there is no such thing as:

Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves

A) Flying Monstrous Creature arrives from Deep Strike Reserves.
B) Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves.

Pick your poison, but i'd go with "B" from the large amount of precedent.

I just wanted to add my 2c I couldn't get to sleep so I got rules reading.

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike(sometimes Deep Strike reserve)."
I believe this to mean that it is refering to the fact that placing them in Reserve at the beginning of the game and wanting to deep strike them is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve.

Immediately after this sentence it says
"Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike."
I believe this to be units that you have started with on your army list for units such as Legion of the Damned.

Now lets assume your FMC had to begin the Game in reserve. Before turn 4 that would mean your FMC would potentially take 3 turns to get into combat from earning the Bloodthirster.

Another interesting thing to point out is Blood Tithe happens before Reserves are done and checking whether your Reserves arrive is before the movement phase but coming from reserves counts as moving because you see if any, all or none of your reserves come on, move your reserves onto the board, then you can move every other unit. I believe the transition from to see if your reserves arrive and having your reserves put on the board is the transition between Reserves and Movement phase. But the Blood Tithe is before this. Blood Tithe summoning is not put into reserves and then they appear. I also believe under deep strike where it says. "In the movement phase during which they arrive." Would make things easier if it actually said during which the turn they arrive. Alas it doesn't.

Just my thoughts Im tired it's 3am. Couldn't get to sleep so did some reading on rulings most of it was about amount of Artefacts allowed per HQ. It's all confusing. GW needs more FAQ releases. I'll be coming back to this to see how far it's progressed when i wake up. sorry for a long post

Edit: Another thing I forgot about is when I started reading this before it become about FMC deep striking. Is yes Chaos Sorcerers can be put into units with Mark or Daemons of Khorne, however if he has a Mark he can only join units with Daemon of Khorne. On top of that Daemons of Slaanesh, Tzeentch or Nurgle with the IC special rule may join units with the Mark of Khorne but not Daemons of Khorne. Only 2 units with both are Warp Talons and Possessed so they can't join them.

 Ignatius wrote:

 Nehekhare wrote:
"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, [...] the unit must start the game in Reserve (pg 135)." (BRB 162)

I already understand that a unit is declared as Deep Striking when it is placed into reserve.

read the exact wording of the rule again: it is rather inversely the unit being placed into reserve when declared to Deep Strike.

 minionboy wrote:

Holy out of context quote bat man!

Let me fix that for you:

No thank you, I prefer the rules as written to paraphrasing.
you will find the full context in my first post: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/641693.page#7713698

 minionboy wrote:
There are many mechanics in the game that allow a unit to Deep Strike, very few of them specify Reserves (though it is important to note that the ones which are intended to be treated like reserves are clearly labeled as such, which would be totally redundant if you were correct),

how do you know which ones are intended to be treated as such? And yes, it is redundant.

 minionboy wrote:
so are you arguing that Veil of Darkness, Skies of Blood and Grav-chute insertion allow interceptor? Are you arguing that the old necron FAQ was incorrect and that Deathmarks got to declare a new target every turn? For you to argue that Bloodthirsters must swoop means you must argue that GW intentionally misled us with a FAQ, intended for Interceptor to work on units not entering from Reserves, and that GW thinks all cookies are chocolate chip.

I am simply quoting the rules, chocolate chip cookies are what happens when you paraphrase. Whatever may have been the issue with interceptor under previous editions of rules may not necessarily apply to the current edition.

btw I am not arguing BTs must swoop, much to the contrary - imo they arrive swooping from reserves but may change flight modes at the start of their deployment move.

Without quoting everything above, you're creating a false dichotomy there BlackTalos.

Deep Strike Reserves is a compound phrase, it is broken down to mean, "being in Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike" as per the rules which define Deep Strike Reserves. When we put that definition into the sentence it makes complete sense, "Flying Monstrous Creature arrives from being in Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike."

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Nehekhare wrote:
"Deep strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)" (BRB 162)

"deep strike" and "deep strike reserves" are proven to be two different things.

I believe it to be quite a logical accomplishment to combine both these statements in one post!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 minionboy wrote:
"Flying Monstrous Creature arrives from being in Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike."

read your review, great as always!

but I think you're unnecessarily creating a paradox here.

Answer me please: according to your interpretation of the rules, what flight mode does an FMC arriving from Deep Strike use before it is allowed to change flight modes?

if the answer is "none", you created a situation where rules are unclear (e.g. for mishaps by scattering onto other models).

 Nehekhare wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Nehekhare wrote:
"Deep strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)" (BRB 162)

"deep strike" and "deep strike reserves" are proven to be two different things.

I believe it to be quite a logical accomplishment to combine both these statements in one post!

Simply because your quote is missing important parts.
Deep strike = sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve
is not a True statement.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent [that it will be arriving by Deep Strike] = sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve
Is the Rules.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
You never place the Bloodthirster into Reserves, so it's not a reserve.

Then you can't use the Deep Strike rules, because they require a model to start the game in Reserve and you have no rule that specifically overrides that requirement.

I would be quite curious as to how you follow the rules in "Skies of Fury", Space Marine Codex, StormRaven Gunships?

Actually that is where the argument Ignatius put forward leads to. My position is that if you use the rules for Deep Striking, then you use those rules regardless. If you want to claim that you can ignore one part of the rules because you weren't in Reserve, then it just smacks of cherry picking the rules to use another rule that requires you to be in Reserve in the first place,

 minionboy wrote:
Without quoting everything above, you're creating a false dichotomy there BlackTalos.

Deep Strike Reserves is a compound phrase, it is broken down to mean, "being in Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike" as per the rules which define Deep Strike Reserves. When we put that definition into the sentence it makes complete sense, "Flying Monstrous Creature arrives from being in Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike."

"Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via being in Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike."

A) Arriving via being in reserves does not mean anything per the rules.
B) The statement is only true if: all Deep Strike Reserves = being in Reserves and arriving by Deep Strike. Which is demonstrably false.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
You never place the Bloodthirster into Reserves, so it's not a reserve.

Then you can't use the Deep Strike rules, because they require a model to start the game in Reserve and you have no rule that specifically overrides that requirement.

I would be quite curious as to how you follow the rules in "Skies of Fury", Space Marine Codex, StormRaven Gunships?

Actually that is where the argument Ignatius put forward leads to. My position is that if you use the rules for Deep Striking, then you use those rules regardless. If you want to claim that you can ignore one part of the rules because you weren't in Reserve, then it just smacks of cherry picking the rules to use another rule that requires you to be in Reserve in the first place,

Of course, which is why i also disagreed with the argument Ignatius put forward. Sorry i did not follow the train of thought leading to the incorrect conclusion and just disagreed with the single statement.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I don't get how this conversation has gone on so long. Tyranid, Daemon and CSM players all tolled over the rules for hours trying to figure out how to make assault FMCs as good as they were in 6th. Daemons have been summoning greater daemons since 7th dropped, and the rules haven't changed since then. You arrive in the air, you land next turn, you assault the turn after that. This is why the black mace prince, melee hive tyrants, combat LoC and bloodthirsters are all but gone. The only flying MCs you see now either hop around with shrouded or shoot/summon.

This book has no new rules on how the FMC arrives, if GW wanted it to be able to assault the turn after it came in, or allow FMCs to change flight mode on the turn they arrive from deep strike, it would be more clear in the rules.

Exactly but people really want their Daemonkin codex to be better.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
You never place the Bloodthirster into Reserves, so it's not a reserve.

Then you can't use the Deep Strike rules, because they require a model to start the game in Reserve and you have no rule that specifically overrides that requirement.

I would be quite curious as to how you follow the rules in "Skies of Fury", Space Marine Codex, StormRaven Gunships?

Actually that is where the argument Ignatius put forward leads to. My position is that if you use the rules for Deep Striking, then you use those rules regardless. If you want to claim that you can ignore one part of the rules because you weren't in Reserve, then it just smacks of cherry picking the rules to use another rule that requires you to be in Reserve in the first place,

Of course, which is why i also disagreed with the argument Ignatius put forward. Sorry i did not follow the train of thought leading to the incorrect conclusion and just disagreed with the single statement.

Hmm. I don't really see how not using parts of rules that are clearly not used is cherry picking, but I've really said all I have to say on the subject. If I didn't convince anyone than that's fine. But I'm still failing to see a majority of the counter argument either through pure genius (not likely) or stubbornness. Either way I'll just have to wait for an FAQ. Maybe if I email GW Customer Services enough they'll get the hint.

 BlackTalos wrote:
The problem with that rule, as i highlighted in another thread is that there is no such thing as:

Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves

A) Flying Monstrous Creature arrives from Deep Strike Reserves.
B) Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves.

Pick your poison, but i'd go with "B" from the large amount of precedent.

When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike,

If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike,

Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.

You are indeed free to select "A", but that limits the rule. You may be correct though.

 BlackTalos wrote:
The problem with that rule, as i highlighted in another thread is that there is no such thing as:

Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves

A) Flying Monstrous Creature arrives from Deep Strike Reserves.
B) Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves.

Pick your poison, but i'd go with "B" from the large amount of precedent.

When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike,

If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike,

Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.

Also, I'd go with B too.

But the rules do literally say "Flying Monstrous Creatures arrive via Deep Strike Reserves". So maybe I'm understanding your claim that "there is no such thing" when that's what the rulebook says verbatim.

 Ignatius wrote:
Also, I'd go with B too.

But the rules do literally say "Flying Monstrous Creatures arrive via Deep Strike Reserves". So maybe I'm understanding your claim that "there is no such thing" when that's what the rulebook says verbatim.

Indeed, it is written as quoted in the book. But (to me anyway) that rule is an impossibility.

Just as there is no such rule as "Deep Strike Reserve": (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). If something is "sometimes called", is that really a rule then?
But many Codices refer to an item called "Deep Strike Reserve", so it should be a defined term...

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Also, I'd go with B too.

But the rules do literally say "Flying Monstrous Creatures arrive via Deep Strike Reserves". So maybe I'm understanding your claim that "there is no such thing" when that's what the rulebook says verbatim.

Indeed, it is written as quoted in the book. But (to me anyway) that rule is an impossibility.

Just as there is no such rule as "Deep Strike Reserve": (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). If something is "sometimes called", is that really a rule then?
But many Codices refer to an item called "Deep Strike Reserve", so it should be a defined term...

Ah okay that makes sense to me. For what it's worth, I agree with you.

 Ignatius wrote:
Hmm. I don't really see how not using parts of rules that are clearly not used is cherry picking, but I've really said all I have to say on the subject. If I didn't convince anyone than that's fine. But I'm still failing to see a majority of the counter argument either through pure genius (not likely) or stubbornness. Either way I'll just have to wait for an FAQ. Maybe if I email GW Customer Services enough they'll get the hint.

 Ignatius wrote:
You have uncovered the only part of my argument that I have no real answer for, as I am looking for a reason that "further" would be in there. Stand by and I'll find something. If not, then I will understand the limitation of my argument and will say it as such.

So... anything? You still think you're right, despite my "uncover[ing] the only part of [your] argument that [you] have no real answer for" and then not addressing that?

Ive got a better question, even if you could move in the movement phase would you still be allowed to change your flight mode? Your allowed to move in the shooting phase via a run (per the deep strike rule).

The rules for flight mode are only described only under "Changing Flight Mode" where it describes that a flight mode is selected until the start of your next turn.

Blood Thirster arrives via (apparently nothing) and gets put into swooping (I'm sorry counts as swooping because some how that also makes people feel like it's a different rule)

The deep strike move happens the start of which was the arrival which specifies you must choose swooping, not sure where the confusion is but hey lets just say that is didn't work that way. The FMC rule states you count as swooping which is only described in that one section where it also clearly states that it can't be changed until the start of your next turn.

So to get it to work that way we have to overlook that the start of the deep strike move is the arrival which is where the FMC rule actually states it makes the choice for you, then overlook the fact that your not allowed to change flight modes once its been set for a turn, then ignore the "Always" in the FMC rule which typically would imply an effect that should last at least until the end of the turn (so that even if you could change it, it would not matter because for all rules purposes it would still count as swooping).

Edit - for grammer

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Perhaps you missed the new rule detailing how a Bloodthirster summoned via the Blood Tithe arrives at the start of the turn before the movement phase, the implications of which for changing flight modes within that turn have been spelled out numerous times above. Or perhaps you're just ignoring it because you don't like it.

Implications are not new rules. Start of phase, psychic phase, movement phase it doesn't matter. Arriving via deepstrike is a Flying MC's movement for that turn and they come in soaring.

If they wanted Flying MCs to charge next turn, Flying MCs would come in gliding.

No, the new rule is that the Bloodthirster arrives before the movement phase. Stop twisting other peoples words. And the existing rules are that any movement associated with Deep Strike happens during the movement phase. As the model is on the table before this happens you can elect to change flight mode at the start of that move.

Which, if you take that argument forward, means that all FMCs are able to switch movement modes the turn they arrive. As Reserves arrive prior to the movement phase, etc.

Do you have a quote for that because the Deep Strike rules actually say "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.." (Emphasis mine)
This clearly demonstrates that normally, Deep Striking units arrive during the Movement Phase. Otherwise it would say something along the lines of "In the Movement phase during the turn on which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.." You only make the actual roll for Reserves during the start of turn phase.

The Daemonkin Codex however gives the summoned units permission to arrive during the start of your turn phase:
The Blood for the Blood God! rules tell us Blood Tithe points are expended at the start of the turn by picking a reward from the table.
The Fury Unbound reward says "That character must immediately take a Leadership test". (Emphasis mine)
If the test is passed and a unit is summoned the footnote to the table says "a new unit under your control immediately arrives..." (Emphasis mine)

So to reiterate, the Bloodthirster arrives before the movement phase and is not yet considered to have moved - going back to the Deep Strike rules they tell us the unit "count as having moved in the previous Movement phase". So if the model is on the table at the start of the movement phase and hasn't yet moved it can surely elect to change flight modes at the start of its move as per the FMC rules.

All this thread boils down to at this point is this:

Is deep strike a move?


If it is, then FMC cannot change flight modes because they have already started their move by deep striking, and they are locked into swooping because they have to declare their mode before starting their move, and deep strike necessitates swooping to be utilized for that kind of deployment.

If it isn't, then the FMC hasn't started its move yet, and is free to change flight modes. Note that this would have much wider implications than just the Daemonkin Codex.

If, as some think, deep strike isn't a move, then why do the deep strike rules state that a unit which deep strikes cannot move any FURTHER in the movement phase? If anyone can answer that, I am open to the possibility of changing flight modes being RAW, but as it stands I just don't see it

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Do you have a quote for that because the Deep Strike rules actually say "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.." (Emphasis mine)
This clearly demonstrates that normally, Deep Striking units arrive during the Movement Phase. Otherwise it would say something along the lines of "In the Movement phase during the turn on which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.." You only make the actual roll for Reserves during the start of turn phase.

Sigh. Despite the fact that this hasn't changed in a long time, people still fail to understand how Reserves work.

At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn.

We know the unit arrives this turn.

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below.

When they arrive, deploy them. Not in a later phase, but when they arrive.

This means that when the roll is successful, the unit moves on. Not later in the turn in a different phase.

So to reiterate, the Bloodthirster arrives before the movement phase and is not yet considered to have moved - going back to the Deep Strike rules they tell us the unit "count as having moved in the previous Movement phase". So if the model is on the table at the start of the movement phase and hasn't yet moved it can surely elect to change flight modes at the start of its move as per the FMC rules.

The Deep Strike rules state that you can move no further. This means that Deep Striking is movement. As I showed earlier in the thread.
Please cite permission to move a unit twice.

Is changing flight modes listed as a form of movement/requiring you to have not yet moved or merely done during the movement phase?

 Eldarain wrote:
Is changing flight modes listed as a form of movement/requiring you to have not yet moved or merely done during the movement phase?

It's done "[a]t the start of its move".

It also lasts until the start of your next turn.

this thread sure is fun to read ;D

 luke1705 wrote:
All this thread boils down to at this point is this:

Is deep strike a move?

If it is, then FMC cannot change flight modes because they have already started their move by deep striking, and they are locked into swooping because they have to declare their mode before starting their move, and deep strike necessitates swooping to be utilized for that kind of deployment.

If it isn't, then the FMC hasn't started its move yet, and is free to change flight modes. Note that this would have much wider implications than just the Daemonkin Codex.

3rd possibility: "arriving" via deep strike isn't, but subsequent "deployment" from deep strike reserve is (because it is a variant of moving onto the table from reserves).

This means DSing FMCs arrive swooping but may immediately change modes at the start of their deployment "move".

This is a copy paste of my previous poste. I think it got skipped over cause i took awhile to write it and people were reading the bottom. If you read the previous post I did skip this.

I just wanted to add my 2c I couldn't get to sleep so I got rules reading.

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike(sometimes Deep Strike reserve)."
I believe this to mean that it is refering to the fact that placing them in Reserve at the beginning of the game and wanting to deep strike them is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve.

Immediately after this sentence it says
"Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike."
I believe this to be units that you have started with on your army list for units such as Legion of the Damned.

Now lets assume your FMC had to begin the Game in reserve. Before turn 4 that would mean your FMC would potentially take 3 turns to get into combat from earning the Bloodthirster.

Another interesting thing to point out is Blood Tithe happens before Reserves are done and checking whether your Reserves arrive is before the movement phase but coming from reserves counts as moving because you see if any, all or none of your reserves come on, move your reserves onto the board, then you can move every other unit. I believe the transition from to see if your reserves arrive and having your reserves put on the board is the transition between Reserves and Movement phase. But the Blood Tithe is before this. Blood Tithe summoning is not put into reserves and then they appear. I also believe under deep strike where it says. "In the movement phase during which they arrive." Would make things easier if it actually said during which the turn they arrive. Alas it doesn't.

It's all confusing. GW needs more FAQ releases. I'll be coming back to this to see how far it's progressed when i wake up. sorry for a long post

Edit: Another thing I forgot about is when I started reading this before it become about FMC deep striking. Is yes Chaos Sorcerers can be put into units with Mark or Daemons of Khorne, however if he has a Mark he can only join units with Daemon of Khorne. On top of that Daemons of Slaanesh, Tzeentch or Nurgle with the IC special rule may join units with the Mark of Khorne but not Daemons of Khorne. Only 2 units with both are Warp Talons and Possessed so they can't join them.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Do you have a quote for that because the Deep Strike rules actually say "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.." (Emphasis mine)
This clearly demonstrates that normally, Deep Striking units arrive during the Movement Phase. Otherwise it would say something along the lines of "In the Movement phase during the turn on which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.." You only make the actual roll for Reserves during the start of turn phase.

Sigh. Despite the fact that this hasn't changed in a long time, people still fail to understand how Reserves work.

At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn.

We know the unit arrives this turn.

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below.

When they arrive, deploy them. Not in a later phase, but when they arrive.

This means that when the roll is successful, the unit moves on. Not later in the turn in a different phase.

So to reiterate, the Bloodthirster arrives before the movement phase and is not yet considered to have moved - going back to the Deep Strike rules they tell us the unit "count as having moved in the previous Movement phase". So if the model is on the table at the start of the movement phase and hasn't yet moved it can surely elect to change flight modes at the start of its move as per the FMC rules.

The Deep Strike rules state that you can move no further. This means that Deep Striking is movement. As I showed earlier in the thread.
Please cite permission to move a unit twice.

Its still a bit dubious whether Deep Strike occurs during the Start of Turn phase, or during the Movement phase. Rolling for reserves occurs at Start of Turn, but only specifies that the models arrive 'this turn'. Then Deep Strike says 'during the movement phase that they arrive...' and 'counts as having moved' ...

FFS GW why can't you just write a damn 'Control Phase' or 'Maintenance Phase', or write Deep Strike rules independent from reserves as there seem to be more deep striking from not-reserves than from reserves these days.

How is it dubious? I quoted the rules that say the unit arrives, and when it arrives it's moved on.

Not in a later phase. Not at some random time during the turn.

On the joining a unit thing. You can't join a unit with a different mark. And you can't join a unit with a different daemon of X rule. You also can't join a unit with daemonic instability if you don't have it.

This rules out a lot of things. However you can for example join a soreror with the mark of nurgle to daemonkin flesh hounds without breaking any of those restrictions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Herald of slaanesh and nurgle have the daemonic instability rule ,so can never join a non codex daemon unit or a codex daemon unit of a different alignment.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Do you have a quote for that because the Deep Strike rules actually say "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.." (Emphasis mine)
This clearly demonstrates that normally, Deep Striking units arrive during the Movement Phase. Otherwise it would say something along the lines of "In the Movement phase during the turn on which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.." You only make the actual roll for Reserves during the start of turn phase.

Sigh. Despite the fact that this hasn't changed in a long time, people still fail to understand how Reserves work.

At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn.

We know the unit arrives this turn.

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below.

When they arrive, deploy them. Not in a later phase, but when they arrive.

This means that when the roll is successful, the unit moves on. Not later in the turn in a different phase.

So to reiterate, the Bloodthirster arrives before the movement phase and is not yet considered to have moved - going back to the Deep Strike rules they tell us the unit "count as having moved in the previous Movement phase". So if the model is on the table at the start of the movement phase and hasn't yet moved it can surely elect to change flight modes at the start of its move as per the FMC rules.

The Deep Strike rules state that you can move no further. This means that Deep Striking is movement. As I showed earlier in the thread.
Please cite permission to move a unit twice.

Sigh. You still haven't managed to provide a quote to back up your claim that reserves arrive before the movement phase. All you've managed to establish is that they arrive that turn. And in any case I don't even know why you're clouding the issue by bringing reserves into it. Summoning via the Blood Tithe has nothing to do with Reserves. If it did the rules would state the summoned units are considered as arriving from Reserves like the rules for Conjured units.

So even if Deep Striking is movement, that movement is considered to happen in the movement phase as the rules state. This isn't any different for Blood Tithe summons. The difference is that the Blood Tithe summons arrive during the previous phase (start of turn) and can therefore elect to change flight modes at the start of that move.

And it's quite easy to move twice in a turn - it's called a Run move.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Sigh. You still haven't managed to provide a quote to back up your claim that reserves arrive before the movement phase. All you've managed to establish is that they arrive that turn. And in any case I don't even know why you're clouding the issue by bringing reserves into it. Summoning via the Blood Tithe has nothing to do with Reserves. If it did the rules would state the summoned units are considered as arriving from Reserves like the rules for Conjured units.

Oh I can help with that: BRB135, "Arriving from Reserves":
"[...] At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, the unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn"
a bit further down on the same page: "Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any ariving Reserves, before any other units can move"...all at the start of the turn, no mention of a movement phase whatsoever.

as for why deep strike always necessitate reserves and equals deep strike reserves, look at page 162. I won't repeat the quote, you will find all relevant information here (spoiler): http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/641693.page#7713698

Still need to address the FMC rule that flight modes are locked in until the start of your next turn.
And the duration of the Swooping restriction from arriving via Deep strike

To be clear: I want this to work, I would love to see the return of the bloodthirster

Kisada II wrote:
Still need to address the FMC rule that flight modes are locked in until the start of your next turn.
And the duration of the Swooping restriction from arriving via Deep strike

To be clear: I want this to work, I would love to see the return of the bloodthirster

There is no duration restriction. It only says "it always counts as being in Swooping mode" when arriving. it's just a default state.

Nothing is locked until modes are declared: "At the start of its move, a Flying monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn" (BRB 68)

This would be the deployment "move" immediately after "arrival" from deep strike reserves (BRB 135).

 Nehekhare wrote:

Kisada II wrote:
Still need to address the FMC rule that flight modes are locked in until the start of your next turn.
And the duration of the Swooping restriction from arriving via Deep strike

To be clear: I want this to work, I would love to see the return of the bloodthirster

There is no duration restriction. It only says "it always counts as being in Swooping mode" when arriving. it's just a default state.

Nothing is locked until modes are declared: "At the start of its move, a Flying monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn" (BRB 68)

This would be the deployment "move" immediately after "arrival" from deep strike reserves (BRB 135).

It's basically in Swooping Mode until the start of your next move. Since it always counts as being in Swooping mode when arriving, you'll have to wait until your next move to declare that it's going to be gliding instead.

 Nehekhare wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Sigh. You still haven't managed to provide a quote to back up your claim that reserves arrive before the movement phase. All you've managed to establish is that they arrive that turn. And in any case I don't even know why you're clouding the issue by bringing reserves into it. Summoning via the Blood Tithe has nothing to do with Reserves. If it did the rules would state the summoned units are considered as arriving from Reserves like the rules for Conjured units.

Oh I can help with that: BRB135, "Arriving from Reserves":
"[...] At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, the unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn"
a bit further down on the same page: "Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any ariving Reserves, before any other units can move"...all at the start of the turn, no mention of a movement phase whatsoever.

as for why deep strike always necessitate reserves and equals deep strike reserves, look at page 162. I won't repeat the quote, you will find all relevant information here (spoiler): http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/641693.page#7713698

Yeah there's also no mention of the start of the turn phase, unless you're counting those coming in automatically on turn 4.

The view that arriving via deep strike always involves coming from reserves is a common misconception arising from being unable to distinguish between the act of deep striking and being placed in deep strike reserves at the start of the game. Just consider Gate of Infinity. Again, units summoned via the blood tithe aren't coming from reserve otherwise it would say so.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
The view that arriving via deep strike always involves coming from reserves is a common misconception arising from being unable to distinguish between the act of deep striking and being placed in deep strike reserves at the start of the game.

I think you have hereby proven yourself as unable to distinguish between being placed in Reserves "at the start of the game" and units "starting" or "beginning the game" in deep strike reserves.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Again, units summoned via the blood tithe aren't coming from reserve otherwise it would say so.

I'm not saying they do.

I'm saying that any argument that allows Blood Tithe'd FMCs to assault the turn after they arrive can be used for any Deep Striking FMC.

The problem with your entire argument is that it hinges on Blood Tithe'd FMCs as "special" and that they can ignore rules because you want them to.

 Nehekhare wrote:

Kisada II wrote:
Still need to address the FMC rule that flight modes are locked in until the start of your next turn.
And the duration of the Swooping restriction from arriving via Deep strike

To be clear: I want this to work, I would love to see the return of the bloodthirster

There is no duration restriction. It only says "it always counts as being in Swooping mode" when arriving. it's just a default state.

Nothing is locked until modes are declared: "At the start of its move, a Flying monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn" (BRB 68)

This would be the deployment "move" immediately after "arrival" from deep strike reserves (BRB 135).

Nothing is locked in until modes are declared, but the rules declare it's in swooping mode when it arrives.
You keep stating that it's just the "default state" like it's a special state that exists outside of all rules but can you give some rules to back this up?

In my book it doesn't read "It always counts as swooping when it arrives but this swooping is considered to have happened in the previous turn so you can change it this turn"

The rules seem clearly intended for using moving in from reserves (that deployment move you keep mentioning), otherwise the rule literally does nothing at all.

By your interpretation it arrives in "Swooping mode" (different from the only definition for swooping mode for FMC's because that one lasts until the start of the next turn) but then makes a deployment move which then MUST declare it's mode because it's starting a move, so where is this "default state" getting applied and for what purpose. Everyone stating that it's just in case someone doesn't say which mode they are in, but that wouldn't apply because upon setting it on the table (deployment move) they MUST declare?

So either the rule has does nothing what so ever and only exists to create confusion and arguments, or it puts you in swooping mode for that deployment which would then last until the start of your next turn.

Just a little thing to add...

I actually just quickly combed Deep Strike Reserve through all the epubs that GW produces and what I've found is that on the rules where they clearly intend you to be coming from reserves, such as Planet Strike Objectives, Conjuration psychic powers, Descent of Angels Warlord Trait, and so on, they've explicitly stated Deep Strike Reserves. Places where they do not intend reserves (Grav-chute insertion, Skies of Blood, Veil of Darkness, etc.), they have only said Deep Strike.

 minionboy wrote:
Just a little thing to add...

I actually just quickly combed Deep Strike Reserve through all the epubs that GW produces and what I've found is that on the rules where they clearly intend you to be coming from reserves, such as Planet Strike Objectives, Conjuration psychic powers, Descent of Angels Warlord Trait, and so on, they've explicitly stated Deep Strike Reserves. Places where they do not intend reserves (Grav-chute insertion, Skies of Blood, Veil of Darkness, etc.), they have only said Deep Strike.

They've also said Deep Strike is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves, so their wording tends to be all over the place.

To go further on this, you Arrive from reserves when you make the roll, are summoned or whatever, your move is the deep strike placement, or the move onto the table. Reserves is clear that your reserve move is walking on, or deep striking.

Here is a thing that can potentially hold this together.
The Rule Intereceptor allows you to shoot at a unit that has arrived from reserve after the movement phase.

Someone mentioned this before. Stormraven Gunships have a special rule called Skies of Fury.
If the Stormraven has moved more than 6", passengers can still disembark but they do as follows:
Nominate any point over which the Stormraven moved that turn adn deploy the squad as if it were deep striking onto that point. If the unit scatters, every disembarking model must immediately take a Dangerous Terrain tests. If any of the models cannot be deployed, the entire unit is destroyerd. Models that disembark using the skies of fury special rule cannot charge in the turn that they do so.

So lets say you disembark like this the turn after the stormraven arrives. This would mean that the models disembarking would somehow be classified as coming in from reserves but this can't be true because they are technically classified as on the board.

Kisada II wrote: the rules declare it's in swooping mode when it arrives.
The rules seem clearly intended for using moving in from reserves (that deployment move you keep mentioning), otherwise the rule literally does nothing at all.
So either the rule has does nothing what so ever and only exists to create confusion and arguments, or it puts you in swooping mode for that deployment which would then last until the start of your next turn.

The rule simply sets a default state to apply when there would otherwise be none at all, and if you read carefully, you'll see that it does only apply to "arriving" FMCs, not "moving" (which, as per the rules for reserves, happens after arrival and allows for change of modes). There would be more arguments without such a state (such as: what happens when the FMC scatters onto other models...mishap or ignore, neither or both?).

minionboy wrote:
I actually just quickly combed Deep Strike Reserve through all the epubs that GW produces and what I've found is that on the rules where they clearly intend you to be coming from reserves, such as Planet Strike Objectives, Conjuration psychic powers, Descent of Angels Warlord Trait, and so on, they've explicitly stated Deep Strike Reserves. Places where they do not intend reserves (Grav-chute insertion, Skies of Blood, Veil of Darkness, etc.), they have only said Deep Strike.

The rule simply sets a default state to apply when there would otherwise be none at all, and if you read carefully, you'll see that it does only apply to "arriving" FMCs, not "moving" (which, as per the rules for reserves, happens after arrival and allows for change of modes). There would be more arguments without such a state (such as: what happens when the FMC scatters onto other models...mishap or ignore, neither or both?). 

Arriving by DS is moving the rules are 100% clear on this. So we are forced to declare the FMC is swooping before it moves onto the table. How long does that declaration last. Using actual rules not made up stuff.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Arriving by DS is moving the rules are 100% clear on this. So we are forced to declare the FMC is swooping before it moves onto the table. How long does that declaration last. Using actual rules not made up stuff.

I'm afraid you made up the arriving part yourself. the rest is correct.

"deployment" is a move, "arriving" is not. The reserve rules (BRB 135) make that very clear:

"When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move."

INTERPRETATION:
"Arrive" only means a unit is now ready to be deployed (determined either by rolling for reserves or by effects that cause units to "arrive immediately", eg. summoning).
It thus also means the unit is technically either still in Reserves, or now placed in Reserves (in case it didn't exist before).
This is when FMCs arriving via deep strike are in Swooping mode.

There is no restriction whatsoever about how long this mode must be kept, only that it "counts as being in Swooping mode" (BRB 68) at arrival.
Just like it would be in gliding mode at the start of the turn if it chose to use it last turn.

Immediately after arrival, the unit is deployed. This is a move as per the reserve rules above.
Because it is the very first "move" made by a deep striking FMC, it may now change flight modes from the default swooping to gliding, which is kept until next turn:

"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn." (BRB 68)

And a deep striking FMC has no opportunity to move the turn it arrives in, hence the relevance of the default state.

 Nehekhare wrote:
Immediately after arrival, the unit is deployed.

You mean as part of arrival. When a unit arrives, do X means that X is part of arriving.

This is a move as per the reserve rules above.
Because it is the very first "move" made by a deep striking FMC, it may now change flight modes from the default swooping to gliding, which is kept until next turn:

So where's your permission to move twice in a turn? Deep Striking is absolutely a move, and you're attempting to do another move.

 Nehekhare wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Arriving by DS is moving the rules are 100% clear on this. So we are forced to declare the FMC is swooping before it moves onto the table. How long does that declaration last. Using actual rules not made up stuff.

I'm afraid you made up the arriving part yourself. the rest is correct.

"deployment" is a move, "arriving" is not. The reserve rules (BRB 135) make that very clear:

"When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move."

INTERPRETATION:
"Arrive" only means a unit is now ready to be deployed (determined either by rolling for reserves or by effects that cause units to "arrive immediately", eg. summoning).
It thus also means the unit is technically either still in Reserves, or now placed in Reserves (in case it didn't exist before).
This is when FMCs arriving via deep strike are in Swooping mode.

There is no restriction whatsoever about how long this mode must be kept, only that it "counts as being in Swooping mode" (BRB 68) at arrival.
Just like it would be in gliding mode at the start of the turn if it chose to use it last turn.

Immediately after arrival, the unit is deployed. This is a move as per the reserve rules above.
Because it is the very first "move" made by a deep striking FMC, it may now change flight modes from the default swooping to gliding, which is kept until next turn:

"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn." (BRB 68)

Cool just a few concequences of your argument. First Coteaz IBEY rule never works as it is triggered by arrival within 12" and according to the deployment not being part of arrival argument you would never arrive on the board. Also my statement remains true you are declared swooping just before deploying (i.e. moving) onto the table and are thus stuck swooping until the start of your following turn.

Alright, I think I have come up with an answer to satisfy pure RAW

Under FMC right under the header it states:

"Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional rules."

The Daemonkin codex states the BT arrives by deepstrike, no more no less. Under deep strike it states:

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."
-so, the first condition "When placing a unit in Reserve" is not met and therefore the condition "called Deep Strike Reserve" is not applied

Under FMC deployment there is actually no case for special deployment to a FMC that is performing 'Deep Strike', so technically the FMC follows the deployment rules for a Monstrous Creature and at this point swooping nor gliding can be declared as this rule has not been triggered yet because it has not moved yet (which is the trigger for the flight change rule)

Under flight modes it says "Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding."

Deep strike counts as a move (many good arguments made from your previous posts) so at this point the 'Changing Flight Mode' comes into effect:

"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until
the start of its next turn."

So, at the start of the 'deep strike move' Swooping or Gliding is declared, this lasts until the start of the next turn.

Comments?

My only comment is that you should have read the thread before posting.

rigeld2 wrote:
My only comment is that you should have read the thread before posting.

Can you please point me to where someone in the whole thread has the same idea that a FMC uses MC rules for deployment because 'Deep Strike' is not a case under FMC deployment rules? And thus swooping or gliding can be declared before the deep strike move? Cause I read the whole thread before posting and pretty sure it is an original idea (though I could be mistaken)

EDIT - The special point I am making here is several times it was mentioned that there is not 'deep strike' option under FMC deployment rule...but there IS if you consider that the FMC is a MC and so deep strike would just follow the normal rules for a MC deep striking, which would mean that swooping is not declared for the rest of the turn

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641693.page#7706381
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/641693.page#7713698

While not literally the same argument, your argument also hinges on arriving by Deep Strike not triggering the restriction to arrive Swooping. Which is what's been argued.

Arguing that they're MCs for this is both incorrect and irrelevant.

rigeld2 wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641693.page#7706381
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/641693.page#7713698

While not literally the same argument, your argument also hinges on arriving by Deep Strike not triggering the restriction to arrive Swooping. Which is what's been argued.

Arguing that they're MCs for this is both incorrect and irrelevant.

But it IS relevant because 'Deep Strike' is not a case under FMC rules only 'Deep Strike Reserve' which is not what the Daemonkin codex states, so the FMC in this case uses its parent MC rules to deepstrike and so swoop is not auto declared and before the deep strike move is made, as per the changing flight modes rule, swoop OR glide can be declared.

chaosmarauder wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641693.page#7706381
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/641693.page#7713698

While not literally the same argument, your argument also hinges on arriving by Deep Strike not triggering the restriction to arrive Swooping. Which is what's been argued.

Arguing that they're MCs for this is both incorrect and irrelevant.

But it IS relevant because 'Deep Strike' is not a case under FMC rules only 'Deep Strike Reserve' which is not what the Daemonkin codex states, so the FMC in this case uses its parent MC rules to deepstrike and so swoop is not auto declared and before the deep strike move is made, as per the changing flight modes rule, swoop OR glide can be declared.

No, the real crux of your argument is that the FMC Swooping rule doesn't apply.
Which is the same as the crux of the other arguments.

 Nehekhare wrote:

Kisada II wrote: the rules declare it's in swooping mode when it arrives.
The rules seem clearly intended for using moving in from reserves (that deployment move you keep mentioning), otherwise the rule literally does nothing at all.
So either the rule has does nothing what so ever and only exists to create confusion and arguments, or it puts you in swooping mode for that deployment which would then last until the start of your next turn.

The rule simply sets a default state to apply when there would otherwise be none at all, and if you read carefully, you'll see that it does only apply to "arriving" FMCs, not "moving" (which, as per the rules for reserves, happens after arrival and allows for change of modes). There would be more arguments without such a state (such as: what happens when the FMC scatters onto other models...mishap or ignore, neither or both?).

But you are saying that it's not in swooping mode for that scatter, if Deployment from Deep strike is separate from arrival and actually counts as "it's move" (not saying it does) then when you place the model (deployment) you MUST declare the flight mode (it's not optional) so you wouldn't have that swooping part apply.

So how does that rule help clarify what happens when you scatter on top of another unit?

FlingitNow wrote: First Coteaz IBEY rule never works as it is triggered by arrival within 12" and according to the deployment not being part of arrival argument you would never arrive on the board. Also my statement remains true you are declared swooping just before deploying (i.e. moving) onto the table and are thus stuck swooping until the start of your following turn.

a) good one! but I didn't argue that they are separate or exclusive, only that they are subsequent. All conditions of IBEY are met at the moment when a unit "arriving from reserves" is deployed within 12".
b) yes, you arrive swooping, but no: there is no rule that leaves you stuck on a flight mode you never declared. there is no duration given for the default mode.

chaosmarauder wrote:
"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."
-so, the first condition "When placing a unit in Reserve" is not met and therefore the condition "called Deep Strike Reserve" is not applied
[...]
So, at the start of the 'deep strike move' Swooping or Gliding is declared, this lasts until the start of the next turn.

the conclusion is correct, but the premise is false: "when placing..." is a condition only for the verbal act "you must tell", while "sometimes called deep strike reserve" is a relative clause that refers to the expression "deep strike" alone.
when x, then y. y is done by ds. ds is sometimes called dsr. you could leave out the rest of the sentence and the relative clause would still be true.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kisada II wrote:
if Deployment from Deep strike is separate from arrival and actually counts as "it's move" (not saying it does) then when you place the model (deployment) you MUST declare the flight mode (it's not optional) so you wouldn't have that swooping part apply.

So how does that rule help clarify what happens when you scatter on top of another unit?

Default Swooping at arrival would still apply when not changed at the start of the deployment move.

You're still under the impression that the "deployment move" is a distinct thing from "arriving" despite evidence otherwise?

Ooookay.

a) good one! but I didn't argue that they are separate or exclusive, only that they are subsequent. All conditions of IBEY are met at the moment when a unit "arriving from reserves" is deployed within 12". 
b) yes, you arrive swooping, but no: there is no rule that leaves you stuck on a flight mode you never declared. there is no duration given for the default mode. 

A) So you admit the deployment is part of arriving. Great.
B) please answer these 3 questions:

1) Is deploying moving? (remember to mark your post HYWPI if you say No).
2) Are you told in the FMC rules that you must be swooping when DSing? (remember to mark your post HYWPI if you say No).
3) Do the rules state that declaring a flight mode before moving means you are stuck in that flight mode until the start of your next turn? (remember to mark your post HYWPI if you say No).

 FlingitNow wrote:

A) So you admit the deployment is part of arriving. Great.
B) please answer these 3 questions:

1) Is deploying moving? (remember to mark your post HYWPI if you say No).
2) Are you told in the FMC rules that you must be swooping when DSing? (remember to mark your post HYWPI if you say No).
3) Do the rules state that declaring a flight mode before moving means you are stuck in that flight mode until the start of your next turn? (remember to mark your post HYWPI if you say No).

A) obvious strawman argument.

B)
1) which kind of deployment? Do you mean the "standart deployment method" at the start of the game or deployment from reserves? The more exact your questions, the more exact your answers. As for the latter: "When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table" (BRB 135).
2) is this exact wording how you would play it? you should mark your post as such then, because the rules as written beg to differ: "If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode." (BRB 68)
3) is this exact wording how you would play it? you should mark your post as such then, because the rules as written beg to differ: "At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn." (BRB 68)

1) context should tell you I was talking about deploying from reserves.
2) glad you agree
3) glad you agree

Then QED.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Again, units summoned via the blood tithe aren't coming from reserve otherwise it would say so.

I'm not saying they do.

I'm saying that any argument that allows Blood Tithe'd FMCs to assault the turn after they arrive can be used for any Deep Striking FMC.

The problem with your entire argument is that it hinges on Blood Tithe'd FMCs as "special" and that they can ignore rules because you want them to.

Then your interpretation is wrong because normal FMCs deep strike in the movement phase, which is why they can't assault next turn. As demonstrated.

The blood tithe FMCs are special in this regard because they arrive before the movement phase. No rules are ignored.

Then your interpretation is wrong because normal FMCs deep strike in the movement phase, which is why they can't assault next turn. As demonstrated. 

The blood tithe FMCs are special in this regard because they arrive before the movement phase. No rules are ignored.

What a confused post? Did that make any sense to you when you wrote it? His interpretation is wrong because start of the turn is in the movement phase but FMCs are special because start of the turn is before the movement phase?

What are you on?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Then your interpretation is wrong because normal FMCs deep strike in the movement phase, which is why they can't assault next turn. As demonstrated. 

The blood tithe FMCs are special in this regard because they arrive before the movement phase. No rules are ignored.

What a confused post? Did that make any sense to you when you wrote it? His interpretation is wrong because start of the turn is in the movement phase but FMCs are special because start of the turn is before the movement phase?

What are you on?

Can we keep this polite? Assuming your opponent is taking drugs isn't polite. I thought his post made perfect sense in the context of this thread. The real question is whether or not a FMC who arrives BEFORE the Movement phase is allowed to move or change from Swooping to Gliding in the same turn's Movement phase.

 FlingitNow wrote:

1) context should tell you I was talking about deploying from reserves.
2) glad you agree
3) glad you agree

Then QED.

1) A) should have told you I don't fall for cheap strawman arguments, so ...
2)/3) I agree that the way you play it has no foundation in the rules as written

do you know what q.e.d. means?

You agreed what the rules say. Therefore we know the result or you are not arguing RaW. Actually on 1 I've dropped because it wasn't that necessary since you effectively conceded with the rest of your post. Do you agree that arriving by deepstrike can happen within 12" of a model (this is the same as agreeing deploying by DS is part of arriving by DS).

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Again, units summoned via the blood tithe aren't coming from reserve otherwise it would say so.

I'm not saying they do.

I'm saying that any argument that allows Blood Tithe'd FMCs to assault the turn after they arrive can be used for any Deep Striking FMC.

The problem with your entire argument is that it hinges on Blood Tithe'd FMCs as "special" and that they can ignore rules because you want them to.

Then your interpretation is wrong because normal FMCs deep strike in the movement phase, which is why they can't assault next turn. As demonstrated.

No, you've failed to demonstrate that.
I've shown that arriving is simultaneous to deploying (when speaking of reserves). I've shown that arriving happens when you roll a 3+ on the die.

Reserves arrive before the movement phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nehekhare wrote:

A) obvious strawman argument.

How is it a Strawman? Please, elaborate rather than ignore his point.

FlingitNow wrote:You agreed what the rules say. Therefore we know the result or you are not arguing RaW. Actually on 1 I've dropped because it wasn't that necessary since you effectively conceded with the rest of your post. Do you agree that arriving by deepstrike can happen within 12" of a model (this is the same as agreeing deploying by DS is part of arriving by DS).

you dropped 1 because I didn't fall for an imprecise question intended to goad people into absurd consequences.
you dropped 2 because your paraphrasing of the DS rules was proven wrong by simply quoting the rules (which is quite ironic considering your constant -pointless- accusations of rules bending)
you dropped 3 because you constructed a duration for a default state but failed to provide evidence for its existence.

and you'll drop this last question when I simply repeat my first anwer:

All conditions of IBEY are met at the moment when a unit "arriving from reserves" is deployed within 12"

to elaborate:

"arriving" is a status that logically precedes deployment and which is kept until deployment, as indicated by the following quote:
"When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table." (BRB 135)

The default flight mode triggered "if a FMC arrives via Deep strike reserves" (BRB 68) has no set duration and does in no way prohibit changing modes "at the start of its move" (ibd.), which is the deployment move.

So please forgive me. I want confirmation the main discussion is whether or not a summoned FMC can be in glide mode the same turn it arrives. Y'all leave no stone unturned.

So you agree to the following:

1) Deploying by deepstrike is part of the arriving by deepstrike process.
2) Deploying from reserves is moving, and deploying by deepstrike is moving.
3) A Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
4) At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.
5) Arriving by Deepstrike happens in the start of the turn phase.

Do we all agree on the 5 above. If you disagree with any please let me know.

Might this help...

BRB, "The Turn" section...

"The Start and End of a Turn
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘at the start of your turn’. These are always resolved before your Movement phase. Likewise, any rule that says an action or event happens ‘at the end of your turn’ is always resolved after your Assault phase has finished, but before your opponent’s next turn (if any) starts."

If the Blood Tithe FMC is summoned at the start of the turn, he will be on the table and the deep strike process will be fully completed BEFORE the Movement phase has occurs. He would be present on the table when he is forced to choose between Swooping and Gliding. I'm not going to get into whether or not he's allowed to move in the Movement phase (I think he should be able to), but he should certainly be able to change to Gliding on the same turn that he's summoned.

 Kriswall wrote:
Might this help...

BRB, "The Turn" section...

"The Start and End of a Turn
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘at the start of your turn’. These are always resolved before your Movement phase. Likewise, any rule that says an action or event happens ‘at the end of your turn’ is always resolved after your Assault phase has finished, but before your opponent’s next turn (if any) starts."

If the Blood Tithe FMC is summoned at the start of the turn, he will be on the table and the deep strike process will be fully completed BEFORE the Movement phase has occurs. He would be present on the table when he is forced to choose between Swooping and Gliding. I'm not going to get into whether or not he's allowed to move in the Movement phase (I think he should be able to), but he should certainly be able to change to Gliding on the same turn that he's summoned.

Regular deep striking is also done at the start of the turn before the movement phase. It makes no difference.

 Kriswall wrote:
Might this help...

BRB, "The Turn" section...

"The Start and End of a Turn
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘at the start of your turn’. These are always resolved before your Movement phase. Likewise, any rule that says an action or event happens ‘at the end of your turn’ is always resolved after your Assault phase has finished, but before your opponent’s next turn (if any) starts."

If the Blood Tithe FMC is summoned at the start of the turn, he will be on the table and the deep strike process will be fully completed BEFORE the Movement phase has occurs. He would be present on the table when he is forced to choose between Swooping and Gliding. I'm not going to get into whether or not he's allowed to move in the Movement phase (I think he should be able to), but he should certainly be able to change to Gliding on the same turn that he's summoned.

So you think the same is true for all Deepstriking FMCs as they all arrive during start of the turn phase.

Ah, I see my confusion. The decision to swoop or glide is made at the start of its move and not at the start of the Movement phase. I think I misread a post. Ignore me!

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Might this help...

BRB, "The Turn" section...

"The Start and End of a Turn
During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens ‘at the start of your turn’. These are always resolved before your Movement phase. Likewise, any rule that says an action or event happens ‘at the end of your turn’ is always resolved after your Assault phase has finished, but before your opponent’s next turn (if any) starts."

If the Blood Tithe FMC is summoned at the start of the turn, he will be on the table and the deep strike process will be fully completed BEFORE the Movement phase has occurs. He would be present on the table when he is forced to choose between Swooping and Gliding. I'm not going to get into whether or not he's allowed to move in the Movement phase (I think he should be able to), but he should certainly be able to change to Gliding on the same turn that he's summoned.

So you think the same is true for all Deepstriking FMCs as they all arrive during start of the turn phase.

Actually, Deep Strike rules say they arrive in the movement phase. Blood Tithe FMCs are an exception to this as their rules give them permission to arrive in the start of turn phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Again, units summoned via the blood tithe aren't coming from reserve otherwise it would say so.

I'm not saying they do.

I'm saying that any argument that allows Blood Tithe'd FMCs to assault the turn after they arrive can be used for any Deep Striking FMC.

The problem with your entire argument is that it hinges on Blood Tithe'd FMCs as "special" and that they can ignore rules because you want them to.

Then your interpretation is wrong because normal FMCs deep strike in the movement phase, which is why they can't assault next turn. As demonstrated.

No, you've failed to demonstrate that.
I've shown that arriving is simultaneous to deploying (when speaking of reserves). I've shown that arriving happens when you roll a 3+ on the die.

No, you've failed to show that.

Actually, Deep Strike rules say they arrive in the movement phase. Blood Tithe FMCs are an exception to this as their rules give them permission to arrive in the start of turn phase.

Really? I want a quote for that. Do you agree with the following:

1) Deploying by deepstrike is part of the arriving by deepstrike process. 
2) Deploying from reserves is moving, and deploying by deepstrike is moving. 
3) A Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode. 
4) At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn. 
5) Arriving by Deepstrike happens in the start of the turn phase. 

 FlingitNow wrote:

Actually, Deep Strike rules say they arrive in the movement phase. Blood Tithe FMCs are an exception to this as their rules give them permission to arrive in the start of turn phase.

Really? I want a quote for that.

Since you've clearly not been following the thread and you've demanded so politely, that's not a problem.

The Deep Strike rules say "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.." (Emphasis mine)
This clearly demonstrates that normally, Deep Striking units arrive during the Movement Phase. I really don't see any other way you could interpret this rule although I'm sure you'll give it a go.

N.B. The rules don't say something along the lines of "In the Movement phase during the turn on which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.." In which case it would certainly be less obvious in which phase they were arriving.

The Deep Strike rules say "In the Movement phase , Deep Striking units may not move any further.." (Emphasis mine)
This clearly demonstrates that normally, Deep Striking units arrive during the Movement Phase. I really don't see any other way you could interpret this rule although I'm sure you'll give it a go. 

Cool so arriving according to this happens in the movement phase. This is your interpretation correct? Arriving happens in the movement phase.

 FlingitNow wrote:
So you agree to the following:

1) Deploying by deepstrike is part of the arriving by deepstrike process.
2) Deploying from reserves is moving, and deploying by deepstrike is moving.
3) A Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode.
4) At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.
5) Arriving by Deepstrike happens in the start of the turn phase.

Do we all agree on the 5 above. If you disagree with any please let me know.

if the rules disagree, they care not for appeals to the public.

1) is paraphrased to the point of imprecision where identity or subordination is implied rather than sequency/causation. Remember: "When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving onto the table as describes below [...] you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move"
2) is actually a conclusion missing the second premise: deploying from deep strike is deploying from reserves (which I'd agree with!).
3) and 4) are direct rules quotes and therefore unaffected by agreement or disagreement.
5) is true for units that were kept in reserves at the start of the game, but there are other ways for units to arrive via deep strike (reserves), e.g. veil (movement phase), skies of blood (movement phase), conjuration (psychic phase), blood tithe (start of the game), axe of ruin (any phase, even during opponent's turn). Also, there is no "start of the turn phase"

So walls of text aside, what is the general consensus, can the summoned bloodthirster assault the turn its out?

A simple yes or no will suffice, a show of hands if you will

 Formosa wrote:
So walls of text aside, what is the general consensus, can the summoned bloodthirster assault the turn its out?

A simple yes or no will suffice, a show of hands if you will

no, but It can charge the turn thereafter.

 Formosa wrote:
So walls of text aside, what is the general consensus, can the summoned bloodthirster assault the turn its out?

A simple yes or no will suffice, a show of hands if you will

Yes

I don't think anyone is saying it can assault the turn its summoned. The issue is if it can assault the turn after ,or the turn after that (having had to change flight modes the intermediate turn) ..

For the show of hands ,the rules are clear to me that a BT summoned at the start of a turn through the blood tithe will have to wait two turns before it can assault. (T1 swoop , T2 transition to glide, T3 assault).

It does suck a lot.

Haha, two turns after summoning anyone? We need to complete the picture!

 Formosa wrote:
So walls of text aside, what is the general consensus, can the summoned bloodthirster assault the turn its out?

A simple yes or no will suffice, a show of hands if you will

Nope nor can it change flight mode, which means unless it is grounded it may not assault the turn after either.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Again, units summoned via the blood tithe aren't coming from reserve otherwise it would say so.

I'm not saying they do.

I'm saying that any argument that allows Blood Tithe'd FMCs to assault the turn after they arrive can be used for any Deep Striking FMC.

The problem with your entire argument is that it hinges on Blood Tithe'd FMCs as "special" and that they can ignore rules because you want them to.

Then your interpretation is wrong because normal FMCs deep strike in the movement phase, which is why they can't assault next turn. As demonstrated.

No, you've failed to demonstrate that.
I've shown that arriving is simultaneous to deploying (when speaking of reserves). I've shown that arriving happens when you roll a 3+ on the die.

No, you've failed to show that.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641693.page#7715521
Your response to this was "You still haven't managed to provide a quote to back up your claim that reserves arrive before the movement phase. All you've managed to establish is that they arrive that turn. " which I actually address in my post if you'd have bothered to read it.

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below.

When they arrive, deploy them. When do they arrive?

If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.

Well, unless you're saying that Reserves arrive at a different time on turn 4 than any other turn, or Ongoing Reserves arrive at a different time, they arrive at the start of the turn.
Saying that they arrive in the movement phase has no basis in fact and is wishful thinking.

^ you cant get any more plain and simple than that honestly.

I'd recommend those that are looking at this from the perspective of those who play 40K regularly. There are clear and defined phases that occur in order, starting with:

Beginning of the turn: All kinds of funky, rules hazy stuff happens
Movement: Normal moving stuff
Psychic: Khorne don't like this stuff no how! (roll for warp points anyway)
- Psychic subphase: resolve each power
Shooting: Kill stuff
Assault Phase: Declaring assaults
- Assault Sub-phases: resolve each combat
End of turn phase: tally up points and any other loose end shenanigans

I would venture a guess that same people that are arguing against being able to switch at movement are the same people that got hung up and confused when resolving the Assault phase when 6th hit and things got a little wonky.
You are trying to say a duck and a chicken are the same because feathers and thats not how the rules a written.

At this point we may have successfully established that everyone keeps to his own opinion, but mine still wins because: "pewpew, you're dead!" (citation needed)

1) is paraphrased to the point of imprecision where identity or subordination is implied rather than sequency/causation. Remember: "When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving onto the table as describes below [...] you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move" 
2) is actually a conclusion missing the second premise: deploying from deep strike is deploying from reserves (which I'd agree with!). 
3) and 4) are direct rules quotes and therefore unaffected by agreement or disagreement. 
5) is true for units that were kept in reserves at the start of the game, but there are other ways for units to arrive via deep strike (reserves), e.g. veil (movement phase), skies of blood (movement phase), conjuration (psychic phase), blood tithe (start of the game), axe of ruin (any phase, even during opponent's turn). Also, there is no "start of the turn phase"

1) so is deploying by deepstrike part of arriving by deepstrike or are they two distinct things? Yes or No.
2) So you agree with the conclusion does the lack of explanation of the premises change that?
3) so you agree
4) and again
5) is true for all relevant parts of this argument correct?

 Nehekhare wrote:
At this point we may have successfully established that everyone keeps to his own opinion, but mine still wins because: "pewpew, you're dead!" (citation needed)

No opinions needed boss... thats what the rules say

if it were, this model cannot run or charge but can do X, it would be different, but it doesnt. It just says using the deep strike special rule. This occurs, according to the rule book, before any movement takes place, at the same time when you draw cards and so on. Just because it used to be played one way for several editions does not mean it is played this way.

If you, for example, tried to resolve some of your shooting during the assault phase, utilizing the rules for shooting and not having permission to do so, I would like at you like you have no idea what you are doing. So when you try to say the same thing at us when the rules give you permission to do so, we are again going to look at you like you have no clue.

The rules state the FMC comes in via deepstrike at the start of the player turn, before movement phase, the creature because it is swooping will be somewhat protected from interceptor (balance emphasis), and also because it has no other choice.
When it finally gets to the movement phase, it declares whether it is gliding or swooping, as it has permission to do so for the reason that it was on the table before the movement phase.

The rules state the FMC comes in via deepstrike at the start of the player turn, before movement phase, the creature because it is swooping will be somewhat protected from interceptor (balance emphasis), and also because it has no other choice. 
When it finally gets to the movement phase, it declares whether it is gliding or swooping, as it has permission to do so for the reason that it was on the table before the movement phase.

And you believe this is true for all FMCs deepstriking from reserve. Is that correct?

 FlingitNow wrote:

The rules state the FMC comes in via deepstrike at the start of the player turn, before movement phase, the creature because it is swooping will be somewhat protected from interceptor (balance emphasis), and also because it has no other choice. 
When it finally gets to the movement phase, it declares whether it is gliding or swooping, as it has permission to do so for the reason that it was on the table before the movement phase.

And you believe this is true for all FMCs deepstriking from reserve. Is that correct?

Just the ones from codex: Khorne Daemonkin... Yup

 FlingitNow wrote:

1) is paraphrased to the point of imprecision where identity or subordination is implied rather than sequency/causation. Remember: "When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving onto the table as describes below [...] you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move" 
2) is actually a conclusion missing the second premise: deploying from deep strike is deploying from reserves (which I'd agree with!). 
3) and 4) are direct rules quotes and therefore unaffected by agreement or disagreement. 
5) is true for units that were kept in reserves at the start of the game, but there are other ways for units to arrive via deep strike (reserves), e.g. veil (movement phase), skies of blood (movement phase), conjuration (psychic phase), blood tithe (start of the game), axe of ruin (any phase, even during opponent's turn). Also, there is no "start of the turn phase"

1) so is deploying by deepstrike part of arriving by deepstrike or are they two distinct things? Yes or No.
2) So you agree with the conclusion does the lack of explanation of the premises change that?
3) so you agree
4) and again
5) is true for all relevant parts of this argument correct?

1) can't answer since "part of" is too imprecise and may imply anything. The rules say : "When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it [...] Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. [...] you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves", so what must be acknowledged is the following:
- deployment from DS ("move") necessitates previous arriving ("roll")
- arriving is a condition that may still apply to a unit that is on the board
2) I agree with both premises and the conclusion.
3)/4) yes.
5) no, since different ways/phases are relevant for this argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WarlordRob117 wrote:


No opinions needed boss... thats what [I think what] the rules say

When it finally gets to the movement phase, it declares whether it is gliding or swooping, as it has permission to do so for the reason that it was on the table before the movement phase.

fixed that for you.

And that is what the rules really say:

"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn." (BRB 68)

 WarlordRob117 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

The rules state the FMC comes in via deepstrike at the start of the player turn, before movement phase, the creature because it is swooping will be somewhat protected from interceptor (balance emphasis), and also because it has no other choice. 
When it finally gets to the movement phase, it declares whether it is gliding or swooping, as it has permission to do so for the reason that it was on the table before the movement phase.

And you believe this is true for all FMCs deepstriking from reserve. Is that correct?

Just the ones from codex: Khorne Daemonkin... Yup

So why not from other codexes what makes the Khorne Daemonkin ones different?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

1) can't answer since "part of" is too imprecise and may imply anything. The rules say : "When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it [...] Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. [...] you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves", so what must be acknowledged is the following: 
- deployment from DS ("move") necessitates previous arriving ("roll") 
- arriving is a condition that may still apply to a unit that is on the board 
2) I agree with both premises and the conclusion. 
3)/4) yes. 
5) no, since different ways/phases are relevant for this argument.

So

1) Whilst deploying by deepstrike am I arriving by deepstrike? Or have I already arrived by deepstrike prior to deploying by deepstrike?
5) So units that started the game in DS reserve AND daemons summoned by the blood tithe both arrive by Deepstrike during the start of the turn phase. Is that correct?

 Formosa wrote:
So walls of text aside, what is the general consensus, can the summoned bloodthirster assault the turn its out?

A simple yes or no will suffice, a show of hands if you will

No.

 Nehekhare wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WarlordRob117 wrote:


No opinions needed boss... thats what [I think what] the rules say

When it finally gets to the movement phase, it declares whether it is gliding or swooping, as it has permission to do so for the reason that it was on the table before the movement phase.

fixed that for you.

And that is what the rules really say:

"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn." (BRB 68)

Why is it when doing this on the forum, they try to find the most condescending of trying to twist the argument?
I appreciate you attempting to fix something that didnt need to be fixed though.

Also, I fail to see how what you wrote is any different than what I wrote... I think I did a pretty good job at paraphrasing without having a BRB in front of me

And to the question about how the Daemonkin book is different than any other book as far as the rule of summoning goes, because it is the only rule of its kind. Perhaps we'll see it again in codex: tzeentch daemonkin or one of the other gods, but that is hypothetical. Even the one in the Codex: Chaos daemons is worded differently and is therefore a different rule with different permissions and restrictions.

I also validate that on the basis that according to what you say, if the chaos lord that holds the axe of ruin is killed and uses the summoning rule to bring into the game a blood thirster, then according to what you have said, because the bloodthirster is swooping when summoned and because he is already on the table due to the deepstrike special rules, he cannot change his movement until 2 turns from his appearance which is utter nonsense according to the BRB.

And to the question about how the Daemonkin book is different than any other book as far as the rule of summoning goes, because it is the only rule of its kind. Perhaps we'll see it again in codex: tzeentch daemonkin or one of the other gods, but that is hypothetical. Even the one in the Codex: Chaos daemons is worded differently and is therefore a different rule with different permissions and restrictions. 

I also validate that on the basis that according to what you say, if the chaos lord that holds the axe of ruin is killed and uses the summoning rule to bring into the game a blood thirster, then according to what you have said, because the bloodthirster is swooping when summoned and because he is already on the table due to the deepstrike special rules, he cannot change his movement until 2 turns from his appearance which is utter nonsense according to the BRB.

Have you got an actual answer to the question. Why using actual rules can you change flight mode the turn you arrive if summoned via blood tithe but not arrived from reserves. What about the summoning rules makes the answer different? Nothing in those rules changes anything about DS except you don't gave to start the game in reserve nor roll for arrival, nor does it say you can move in the movement phase in which you arrive. So why are you treating it differentl?

it does say you can move in the movement phase. It says quite clearly that the FMC chooses at the start of the movement phase whether it is gliding or swooping and then proceeds to move as little or as far as the rules allow.

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
it does say you can move in the movement phase. It says quite clearly that the FMC chooses at the start of the movement phase whether it is gliding or swooping and then proceeds to move as little or as far as the rules allow.

No, it does not say "at the start of the movement phase".

Please be correct about things you think are "quite clear" - paraphrasing things and getting them wrong leads to incorrect arguments.

So I have a point to make, but I don't want to get in the whole please state blah blah blah boring argument. I just want to make a point.

Forget RAW for a minute. And let's all live in a world where players play friendly games and common sense is applied. Common sense is the wording I choose to use for RAI. Why on earth would GW allow you to summon a unit, that on average you won't be able to summon until around turn three, and then make sure it can do a grand total of absolutely nothing up until after what could be the last turn? It makes literally no sense from a common sense point of view.

I have no doubt that they don't want you to assault the turn you arrive from being summoned. It sucks, but it was expected, but to suggest they'll allow you to summon a pure combat unit and not allow you to charge the turn afterwards is a little baffling. Common sense surely dictates that they wanted you to be able to charge the turn after it arrives. Surely that was GW's intention? I was in my local store today, and that's they way they told me it worked. I know that's not the sort of evidence that stands up in court. I know there are those of you out there that will choose to destroy this post because it makes you feel big and clever and you probably don't collect this army. But common guys, it's supposed to be a fun game.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Forget RAW for a minute. And let's all live in a world where players play friendly games and common sense is applied. Common sense is the wording I choose to use for RAI. Why on earth would GW allow you to summon a unit, that on average you won't be able to summon until around turn three, and then make sure it can do a grand total of absolutely nothing up until after what could be the last turn? It makes literally no sense from a common sense point of view.

Why on earth would GW allow you to Deep Strike FMCs ever if it's likely it can do a grand total of absolutely nothing up until after what could be the last turn? It makes literally no sense from a common sense point of view.

Blood Tithe'd Bloodthirsters arent special.

Also, accusations of bias are pretty rude. I'm sure you didn't intend that though.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
So I have a point to make, but I don't want to get in the whole please state blah blah blah boring argument. I just want to make a point.

Forget RAW for a minute. And let's all live in a world where players play friendly games and common sense is applied.

Absolutely this for every friendly game you want to play. But this is YMDC. Friendly gameplay doesn't apply here, only the cold hard letter of the rules

 WarlordRob117 wrote:
it does say you can move in the movement phase. It says quite clearly that the FMC chooses at the start of the movement phase whether it is gliding or swooping and then proceeds to move as little or as far as the rules allow.

Where does it say this in blood tithe? Or indeed anywhere? Still absolutely no reason given as to why you'd treat a summoned FMC differently to one that had simply DS'd from reserve at the same time. So I'll assume you have no answer for this. So why continue posting? What you want the rules to be is irrelevant. The rules are clear.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
So I have a point to make, but I don't want to get in the whole please state blah blah blah boring argument. I just want to make a point.

Forget RAW for a minute. And let's all live in a world where players play friendly games and common sense is applied.

Absolutely this for every friendly game you want to play. But this is YMDC. Friendly gameplay doesn't apply here, only the cold hard letter of the rules

Yeah, I get that. But I read these arguments and it's the unstoppable force meeting the immovable object. Hence I ask people to look at it from the RAI point of view.

And no intention to accuse bias. I'm never here to offend. But if you remover the RAW and don't break it down to the very last word, and then think what the intention was... I think most will then come out with the same answer.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
So I have a point to make, but I don't want to get in the whole please state blah blah blah boring argument. I just want to make a point.

Forget RAW for a minute. And let's all live in a world where players play friendly games and common sense is applied.

Absolutely this for every friendly game you want to play. But this is YMDC. Friendly gameplay doesn't apply here, only the cold hard letter of the rules

Yeah, I get that. But I read these arguments and it's the unstoppable force meeting the immovable object. Hence I ask people to look at it from the RAI point of view.

And no intention to accuse bias. I'm never here to offend. But if you remover the RAW and don't break it down to the very last word, and then think what the intention was... I think most will then come out with the same answer.

Except we do not (usually) know what the authors intent is. For example - The Sporocyte/Tyrannocyte has a special rule where each of its 5 guns can fire at different targets, and must target the nearest enemy unit (paraphrased slightly). The White Dwarf article which first introduced these units had a note that for the purposes of the shooting attacks, you basically treat the model like a vehicle - determine which unit is the nearest for each individual gun. However, when the rules were released online and in Shield of Baal, the designer note never made it into the publications. As such those who have seen the WD version know what the intent is. Everyone else is left guessing what was intended.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
So I have a point to make, but I don't want to get in the whole please state blah blah blah boring argument. I just want to make a point.

Forget RAW for a minute. And let's all live in a world where players play friendly games and common sense is applied.

Absolutely this for every friendly game you want to play. But this is YMDC. Friendly gameplay doesn't apply here, only the cold hard letter of the rules

Yeah, I get that. But I read these arguments and it's the unstoppable force meeting the immovable object. Hence I ask people to look at it from the RAI point of view.

And no intention to accuse bias. I'm never here to offend. But if you remover the RAW and don't break it down to the very last word, and then think what the intention was... I think most will then come out with the same answer.

I agree look at the intent. Literally nothing changes how summoning works in comparison to normal deepstrike (except you don't roll and don't start in DS reserve neither of which has a baring on this). Yes it may take you to turn 3 to summon but it is certainly possible to do it turn 2, particularly in a blood host (as you only need 5 kills to get a DP at that point) and it is possible to do it turn 1 (if you go 2nd and are against triple FBSC for example). Reserves often happen turn 3 or 4 so why treat them differently? Yes you choose what units go in reserve but BT units are free extra units so is it really that unlikely that they are meant to come with downsides? The same is true of summoned FMCs from psychic powers.

Also it is their clear design intent to give your opponent a turn of full Bs firing before you assault. Though a failed grounding test can see you in combat a turn earlier. Granted had it been up to me I'd have forced gliding on FMCs that arrive from DS. But it's not up to me. The rules are clear no matter how much people want them to be different.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Again, units summoned via the blood tithe aren't coming from reserve otherwise it would say so.

I'm not saying they do.

I'm saying that any argument that allows Blood Tithe'd FMCs to assault the turn after they arrive can be used for any Deep Striking FMC.

The problem with your entire argument is that it hinges on Blood Tithe'd FMCs as "special" and that they can ignore rules because you want them to.

Then your interpretation is wrong because normal FMCs deep strike in the movement phase, which is why they can't assault next turn. As demonstrated.

No, you've failed to demonstrate that.
I've shown that arriving is simultaneous to deploying (when speaking of reserves). I've shown that arriving happens when you roll a 3+ on the die.

No, you've failed to show that.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641693.page#7715521
Your response to this was "You still haven't managed to provide a quote to back up your claim that reserves arrive before the movement phase. All you've managed to establish is that they arrive that turn. " which I actually address in my post if you'd have bothered to read it.

I did read your post, and yes, you did attempt to address it. Unfortunately, as I said, all you managed to establish is that reserves arrive that turn, not that they arrive before the Movement phase. But why are you even continuing to discuss Reserves? You've already conceded that units summoned via the Blood Tithe aren't coming from reserve so it's really not relevant to the issue of the of the Bloodthirster being summoned this way. However, just to draw a line under this issue, I'll run you through the RAW.

rigeld2 wrote:

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below.

When they arrive, deploy them. When do they arrive?

Well, the rules state that they move "onto the table as described below". Let's then look below where the rules say "When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge". So when do we move units? In the Movement phase. The rules also state that "A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve". This is because it has missed the start of the turn phase, having entered play at the start of the Movement phase. We already know Deep Striking units arrive during the Movement Phase; why would it be any different for units in Reserve moving on from the board edge?

rigeld2 wrote:
Saying that they arrive in the movement phase has no basis in fact and is wishful thinking.

Again, where your argument falls down is that you're failing to distinguish between rolling for Reserves during the start of the turn, and when those units in Reserves actually arrive. As usual, they could have been better written, but if you read the rules for Reserves carefully, nowhere does it state that following the roll, the unit immediately arrives, or explicitly state that they do so during the start of the turn phase. It only says that they arrive that turn, which I have discussed above. To think that you have demonstrated conclusively that they arrive during the start of the turn phase has no basis in fact and is wishful thinking.

In actual fact, the way the Reserves rules are written is very compatible with them arriving during the Movement Phase and there are no rules or conflicts suggesting that this isn't the case. The only explicit restriction is that you must move all your arriving Reserves before moving your other units but this is not at all incompatible with the Reserves arriving during the Movement Phase; indeed if they were arriving during the start of the turn phase this instruction would be redundant and unnecessary.

Well wow. I think Tonberry7 had convinced me.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I did read your post, and yes, you did attempt to address it. Unfortunately, as I said, all you managed to establish is that reserves arrive that turn, not that they arrive before the Movement phase. But why are you even continuing to discuss Reserves? You've already conceded that units summoned via the Blood Tithe aren't coming from reserve so it's really not relevant to the issue of the of the Bloodthirster being summoned this way. However, just to draw a line under this issue, I'll run you through the RAW.

I wasn't the first person who brought it up. I was responding to you arguing about Reserves.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/641693/7715421.page

Well, the rules state that they move "onto the table as described below". Let's then look below where the rules say "When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge". So when do we move units? In the Movement phase. The rules also state that "A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve". This is because it has missed the start of the turn phase, having entered play at the start of the Movement phase. We already know Deep Striking units arrive during the Movement Phase; why would it be any different for units in Reserve moving on from the board edge?

So you are actually contending that Reserves that arrive on T4 arrive at a different time than those on turns 2 and 3? And Ongoing Reserves also arrive at a different time than normal Reserves?

In actual fact, the way the Reserves rules are written is very compatible with them arriving during the Movement Phase and there are no rules or conflicts suggesting that this isn't the case. The only explicit restriction is that you must move all your arriving Reserves before moving your other units but this is not at all incompatible with the Reserves arriving during the Movement Phase; indeed if they were arriving during the start of the turn phase this instruction would be redundant and unnecessary.

The fact that it's redundant doesn't mean anything.
It's a reminder more than anything else - that you can't move a unit out of the way and then move Reserves on.

I also love how you snipped part of my post out that addressed literally every word you typed in this one before you even typed it.

Do Reserves arrive on turn 4 at the same point in the turn that they do on turns 2 and 3? If you say no, be prepared to back up your answer with rules. I'd love an answer to this question.
Do Ongoing Reserves arrive at the same point in the turn as regular Reserves? If you say no, be prepared to back up your answer with rules. I'd love an answer to this question.

Regular reserves are rolled for in the start of turn phase, but arrive in the movement phase. Therefore the deep strike movement prohibition applies.

Blood Tithe summonings occur in the start of turn phase. The deepstrike movement prohibition does not apply (whether by intent or not I am not sure).

The assault prohibition will still apply.

FlingitNow wrote:
1) Whilst deploying by deepstrike am I arriving by deepstrike? Or have I already arrived by deepstrike prior to deploying by deepstrike?
5) So units that started the game in DS reserve AND daemons summoned by the blood tithe both arrive by Deepstrike during the start of the turn phase. Is that correct?

1) DSing FMCs are "arriving" (continuous present) until placed on (moving onto) on the board. Change of flight mode is declared at the start of this move. IF (not "when") they arrive (simple present) via DS reserve, FMCs always count as being in Swooping mode... until this change of modes.
5) the start of the turn is not a phase.

WarlordRob117 wrote:

 Nehekhare wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WarlordRob117 wrote:


No opinions needed boss... thats what [I think what] the rules say

When it finally gets to the movement phase, it declares whether it is gliding or swooping, as it has permission to do so for the reason that it was on the table before the movement phase.

fixed that for you.

And that is what the rules really say:

"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn." (BRB 68)

Why is it when doing this on the forum, they try to find the most condescending of trying to twist the argument?
I appreciate you attempting to fix something that didnt need to be fixed though.

Also, I fail to see how what you wrote is any different than what I wrote... I think I did a pretty good job at paraphrasing without having a BRB in front of me

maybe if you read your own post again, you'll be able to notice that you yourself did quite a good job at condescension, too.
If you read my response again, particularly the phrases marked in red, you may be able to notice, that there is indeed a difference: move does not equal movement phase - a unit can move onto the board from reserves, when running (shooting phase), when charging (assault phase) and sometimes even during the opponent's turn.

Regular reserves are rolled for in the start of turn phase, but arrive in the movement phase. Therefore the deep strike movement prohibition applies. 

Incorrect regular reserves arrive during the start of the turn phase. Check the reserves rules or read Rigeld's post.

 Nehekhare wrote:

5) the start of the turn is not a phase.

admittedly the start of turn is not called a phase, however..

"...an action or event happens 'at the start of your turn'. These are always resolved before your movement phase."

1) DSing FMCs are "arriving" (continuous present) until placed on (moving onto) on the board. Change of flight mode is declared at the start of this move. IF (not "when") they arrive via DS reserve, FMCsalways count as being in Swooping mode until this change of modes. 
5) the start of the turn is not a phase. 

So we agree that FMCs arrive swooping and are thus stuck doing that until their next turn. Everything else seems irrelevant but for a sense of completion what phase to Blood Tithe summoned FMCs arrive and how does this differ to normal DS reserves?