I don't know that outrage is necessarily the correct word. For instance, I did reply showing that I didn't care for the direction they had decided to go. I expressed it but I don't think it was outrage, let alone even close to being a passionate response. If anything disappointment was what I was personally feeling towards the preview.
I will say right now, that if they have cobbled something together in short order in response, then I have to wonder how much consideration they've given this new direction. I'm not saying it will be terrible or unplayable or anything like that but I just don't know that I would trust it to be particularly well developed.
To be fair I think the strong disagreement over what game people beileve mantic should be developing did derail the whole alpha thread on the mantic forums. I still think mantic didn't prepare themselves for the ammount of dissent and discourse that the wp 3.0 rules would produce.
I am looking forward to seeing the second ruleset that they announced they are creating, although I do feel at this point its going to split the fan base and be seen by many as not something mantic really want to produce.
The biggest problem was that Mantic pulled a GW. They should have revealed the Warpath rules on their own terms. Instead, they allowed it to leak through whispers out of a paywall, and people jumped to conclusions.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: The biggest problem was that Mantic pulled a GW. They should have revealed the Warpath rules on their own terms. Instead, they allowed it to leak through whispers out of a paywall, and people jumped to conclusions.
People didn't jump to conclusions though, the people who posted the most and strongest objections all had the alpha rules in hand, and the paywall was an especially thin one as you should know
The legs could have done with some armour plates. It kind of looks like you could cripple them easily with a couple of legs shots.
Also, and this is just me being picky, the drill arms could have done with been less outstretched and being more bunched up to show off the drills weight.
I'll definitely be considering 3 or 4 sprues of them in the pm, dependant of course on the wp 3.0 beta
kow2 pm is closed latest comment on the ks comments.
Guess I won't be buying any abyssals, succubi, salamanders, naiads or tyrant king Blaines.
Good thing I still have my 1st edition book, too.
I really did think they'd open it again once we saw some more renders but apparently they needed final numbers for production. I was pretty much going to dump another $150+ when it reopened.
Mantic may finally be realising that the continual PM re-opening is hurting their retail sales, as well as messing with their production numbers
I suspect this is a test to see how much better/worse sales are if they don't
and as for mantic saying one thing and doing another, it's par for the course, 'we'll show you actual minis befor closing the PM', 'the PM will be open on X', 'we'll use this art to base the minis on' especially if it's Ronnie talking about things as he does get carried away by enthusiasm
I thought they backtracked on a promise for a second PM already with Dreadball Xtreme? This just follows the pattern. Even before this promising a second chance at the pledge manager then not doing it after all nonsense, second-round PMs often didn't have the same deals, or some of the miniatures wouldn't be offered anymore.
If I know I want something, I get it on the first go around. If I have to wait to know if I want something, I skip it.
I may be the only one, but I'm glad they aren't reopening the PM, because if the did I'd probably spend more money that would be better spent one something besides minis.
JoshInJapan wrote: I may be the only one, but I'm glad they aren't reopening the PM, because if the did I'd probably spend more money that would be better spent one something besides minis.
To quote the Tick, you're going sane in a crazy world.
kow2 pm is closed latest comment on the ks comments.
Guess I won't be buying any abyssals, succubi, salamanders, naiads or tyrant king Blaines.
Good thing I still have my 1st edition book, too.
Won't FLGSs be getting those units/models or were they KS exclusives?
My FLGSs don't order Mantic minis any more. Miniature Market may liquidate those minis before I get a chance to order them, and they don't seem to restock KoW minis. The direct price will probably not be in line with reasonable expectations, artificially high in the expectation that no one will buy them without a 20 or 30% discount. Retail is not Mantic's friend here.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:Mantic may finally be realising that the continual PM re-opening is hurting their retail sales, as well as messing with their production numbers
I suspect this is a test to see how much better/worse sales are if they don't
and as for mantic saying one thing and doing another, it's par for the course, 'we'll show you actual minis befor closing the PM', 'the PM will be open on X', 'we'll use this art to base the minis on' especially if it's Ronnie talking about things as he does get carried away by enthusiasm[/quote]
At the very least Kings of War, Dreadball, Deadzone and Mars Attacks are real, are actually fully realised games, and are actually fun, which is just a whole other level compared to Molyneux
At the very least Kings of War, Dreadball, Deadzone and Mars Attacks are real, are actually fully realised games, and are actually fun, which is just a whole other level compared to Molyneux
Molyneux used to make really fun games. Fun games that didn't do half of the things he claimed they would so disappointing but fun none the less. Now days they just disappointing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah I have seen several game stores that just don't stock most mantic stuff because it just doesn't sell there.
My FLGSs don't order Mantic minis any more. Miniature Market may liquidate those minis before I get a chance to order them, and they don't seem to restock KoW minis. The direct price will probably not be in line with reasonable expectations, artificially high in the expectation that no one will buy them without a 20 or 30% discount. Retail is not Mantic's friend here.
Yeah I have seen several game stores that just don't stock most mantic stuff because it just doesn't sell there.
True, but on the other hand, retailers are asking for 40%-50% discount of RRP as wholesale so that they actually can sell it with 20% discount and still make profit after expenses, plus possibly return-clauses for stock that hasn't shifted.
Kickstarter takes 5%, Amazon Payment another 3% or so, maybe 5%-10% off/in freebies to wet the appetite of backers, but in turn the company also gains the interest earned on money they get in advanced and save on the interest on loans or forgoes interest potentially earned on advance money invested into moulds, etc.. Not even counting the promotional bonus and/or overspending kickstarter-backers.
I'm all for getting retailers back into the loop a bit more, but the reality of economics means retailers will also need to actually offer producers a deal that'll not leave Mantic & co with considerably worse margins than Kickstarter. No company can afford to continuously just turn down the better deal out of the goodness of their heart.
I understand kickstarter gets mantic more profit per product but I wonder if that night be short term profits for long term losses. If retail doesn't stock it then there tends to be a huge post kickstarter drop off with people not playing an unsupported game in their local stores no community being built around the game and player drop off. With the eighth retail support low could be hugely popular as it's a fantastic game however I think their kicksrarter heavy model may be preventing that.
Not saying mantic have do anything out of the goodness of their heart just thinking they be be sacrificing long term growth for short term profits. That's jot certain btw I am not claiming any of it as fact just something worth considering
My FLGSs don't order Mantic minis any more. Miniature Market may liquidate those minis before I get a chance to order them, and they don't seem to restock KoW minis. The direct price will probably not be in line with reasonable expectations, artificially high in the expectation that no one will buy them without a 20 or 30% discount. Retail is not Mantic's friend here.
Yeah I have seen several game stores that just don't stock most mantic stuff because it just doesn't sell there.
True, but on the other hand, retailers are asking for 40%-50% discount of RRP as wholesale so that they actually can sell it with 20% discount and still make profit after expenses, plus possibly return-clauses for stock that hasn't shifted.
Kickstarter takes 5%, Amazon Payment another 3% or so, maybe 5%-10% off/in freebies to wet the appetite of backers, but in turn the company also gains the interest earned on money they get in advanced and save on the interest on loans or forgoes interest potentially earned on advance money invested into moulds, etc.. Not even counting the promotional bonus and/or overspending kickstarter-backers.
Is that because everyone buys everything they want on kickstarter and not at retail, so they don't bother anymore?
No, it's because they were unable to sell most of their very first shipment, which arrived before Kickstarter was even a thing. For other FLGSs, I gather it just doesn't sell. I buy Mantic if it has a reasonably discounted price, especially the newer overpriced stuff, but just don't see it locally any more.
there are just way too many ways to get Mantic for well under retail that MSRP has lost a lot of meaning.
It's a pity about the Pledge Manager. Like most people, I was holding off on the abyssals until I saw sculpts. While I like them enough for the KS prices, I'm not sure i'll be buying them retail. I guess we'll see.
Is that because everyone buys everything they want on kickstarter and not at retail, so they don't bother anymore?
This is what I've observed at stores from Virginia, Maryland, Pennsylvania and now Phoenix, AZ area.
Hard for FLGS to compete with KS and deep discount online retail.
So it's a good thing that they've switched to one-shot pledge managers then, because a game needs retail presence to thrive, and if they keep opening it up like they did with Deadzone too many people will get everything they need well before looking at retail.
It's not so good for people who were expecting a second go at the KoW 2nd PM, especially if they were expecting one - I was hoping for one, but never did see Mantic answer yes or no until now, just stalling, which is why I locked away the $50 pledge first up to be sure. Just means that I'll get a Nature army from a FLGS some time in the future (when I can better afford it)
Polonius wrote: there are just way too many ways to get Mantic for well under retail that MSRP has lost a lot of meaning.
It's a pity about the Pledge Manager. Like most people, I was holding off on the abyssals until I saw sculpts. While I like them enough for the KS prices, I'm not sure i'll be buying them retail. I guess we'll see.
Yeah, I would have bought the Abyssals for the price they had them for on the KS. Quite a lot of them. But now I won't be spending a dime on them other than the $1 I put into the KS. This is time number 2 I've been burned by Mantic with their Pledge Managers so I think I'm good from here on out with them.
Hulksmash wrote: Yeah, I would have bought the Abyssals for the price they had them for on the KS. Quite a lot of them. But now I won't be spending a dime on them other than the $1 I put into the KS. This is time number 2 I've been burned by Mantic with their Pledge Managers so I think I'm good from here on out with them.
You do realise I'm not agreeing with your position right? Mantic and retailers want you to buy them from retailers, do you always refuse to buy kickstarter products anywhere but the kickstarter itself?
"My FLGS won't stock them anymore because they don't sell, everyone got them in the kickstarter, why are you so terrible to retailers Mantic?"
"So you're not opening the pledge manager for me to buy another round of minis again to encourage retail sales, why are you so terrible to me Mantic?"
Hulksmash wrote: Yeah, I would have bought the Abyssals for the price they had them for on the KS. Quite a lot of them. But now I won't be spending a dime on them other than the $1 I put into the KS. This is time number 2 I've been burned by Mantic with their Pledge Managers so I think I'm good from here on out with them.
You do realise I'm not agreeing with your position right? Mantic and retailers want you to buy them from retailers, do you always refuse to buy kickstarter products anywhere but the kickstarter itself?
Fixed my last comment for clarity. That said yes I do sometimes refuse to buy products outside of kickstarter. I buy models based on their value to me and their usefulness. At even 20% off 90% of Mantics range isn't worth a look from me. Add in the fact that I dislike being told I'll be able to see all the sculpts before I order them and then making that not possible. Mantic has a bit of a history of not producing decent items. So to each their own
As for stocking them none of mine will because their game doesn't have recognition and it would cannibalize WFB sales. At least from the 1-2 I've talked to about it.
In this particular case, Mantic's retail strategy excuses nothing. If they wanted customers to buy from retail instead of during a 2nd go on a pledge manager, no problem, but then they never should have said that pledgers would get a second crack at the pledge manager. Simple.
On the Chilling Wargamers recording of the second Q&A at open day... I think... Ronnie spoke about how they'll never be able to have the 'own store' retail presence of GW, but in the future they plan to try and work with retailers more proactively to establish their own space, their own corner of the store, etc. He also went for the fancy book box for Dungeon Saga because he wants 10x the number of KS sales at retail, and it's likely the reason behind the redone art for KoW retail packages, and presumably they'll redo Warpath as well. So yes it is Mantic's view, at least from here onwards.
Vermonter wrote: In this particular case, Mantic's retail strategy excuses nothing. If they wanted customers to buy from retail instead of during a 2nd go on a pledge manager, no problem, but then they never should have said that pledgers would get a second crack at the pledge manager. Simple.
Let's lok seriously at this. IF they wanted retail sales to increase, why did they take existing army bundles and put them in the kickstarter? Seriously, any store that did stock the army bundles just got screwed even worse. Mantic could care less about retailers
Vermonter wrote: In this particular case, Mantic's retail strategy excuses nothing. If they wanted customers to buy from retail instead of during a 2nd go on a pledge manager, no problem, but then they never should have said that pledgers would get a second crack at the pledge manager. Simple.
Let's lok seriously at this. IF they wanted retail sales to increase, why did they take existing army bundles and put them in the kickstarter? Seriously, any store that did stock the army bundles just got screwed even worse. Mantic could care less about retailers
They didn't. In fact they specifically made the armies available different to those sold at retail, as well as refusing to put individual units up (despite how much ackers were asking for it). I think (as in might be wrong) that people even stated that some of the army deals were worse value than those on retail. The Kings of War range is getting a compete overhaul to make it easier to sell in stores and almost everything funded by kickstarter will be available at retail.
Oh and sorry to be that guy, but couldn't care less.
I understand kickstarter gets mantic more profit per product but I wonder if that night be short term profits for long term losses. If retail doesn't stock it then there tends to be a huge post kickstarter drop off with people not playing an unsupported game in their local stores no community being built around the game and player drop off. With the eighth retail support low could be hugely popular as it's a fantastic game however I think their kicksrarter heavy model may be preventing that.
Not saying mantic have do anything out of the goodness of their heart just thinking they be be sacrificing long term growth for short term profits. That's jot certain btw I am not claiming any of it as fact just something worth considering
Perhaps in 2012/2013 but the overwhelming success of things like Dreadball post-KS throw that out the window
Right now, both Golden/Warpath and Alliance are going crazy over Dwarf King's Quest. Ask any FLGS owner about all the promo stuff Golden has ready for DKQ, including demo kits and huge launch packs. Apparently preorders have been insane
Automatically Appended Next Post:
privateer4hire wrote: This is what I've observed at stores from Virginia, Maryland, Pennsylvania and now Phoenix, AZ area.
Hard for FLGS to compete with KS and deep discount online retail.
Dragons Den in Richmond, VA is gearing up to carry Kings of War 2 as there's literally no one interested in Warhammer 9, but there's been a lot of buzz about KoW2 from people who want to dust their armies off.
Three weeks ago Warpath returned, with a set of alpha rules released exclusively to Beasts of War backstage pass holders. However, we couldn’t hold them back from the masses forever, so today we are putting the alpha rules on general release!
warpath logo final with TMThis is the new iteration of the Warpath mass-battle sci-fi game – a game that has been nearly five years in the making. To get an understanding of what we are trying to achieve, please read the previous blog here.
The alpha period so far has been fantastic, with over 150 comments on the feedback thread, and lots of games going on, and I’m really looking forward to a new wave of players entering the fold and letting us know what they think. To be clear, the game is still very much in an alpha stage – we’re still playing around with things to improve the game, as you’ll see later. We’ll keep the game at this stage for another month or two, and then we’ll pool together all of the feedback and polish it into a beta version, to start fine-tuning the detail.
For those of you who have already read and played through the Beasts of War version, you’ll want to know what’s changed. All of the changes have been listed here. There were some excellent suggestions and comments from the community, so you may see some of your own influence in there.
Vehicular Combat
Last time we talked about Warpath, we showed off the Enforcer Interceptor, which went down a storm! This time around we’ve got concept art of the Forge Father Tank for your feedback – an assault variant and an APC. There will be additional weapons for the assault version too.
Warpath Firefight
One of the biggest areas for discussion has been about the general scope of Warpath, and what people are actually looking for in a sci-fi battle game. Opinion has been divided between those who are excited about playing big battles with whole units, and those who are looking for something with fewer models and more granularity and detail for the individual figures. This is addressed in the discussion on Warpath ‘Firefight’ – which you can find below. Have a read and let us know what you think.
Essentially, we want to create an alternate version of the game, scaling down the same mechanics to provide the individual casualty removal and detail that people are looking for, while keeping the game as slick and fast as possible. This game will have a sweet spot of 30-50 models, so smaller than the core Warpath rules, but closer to some of the other games on the market – hopefully providing a viable alternative for those who are looking for it. We haven’t fully developed this alternate version yet, but I have made some comments on the original rules to explain how it would work.
Check out the initial thoughts here: Download Warpath Firefight (PDF)
That should give you plenty to digest for now – I’m really looking forward to hearing what you think. Over the next few weeks we’ll put out more army lists, and we’ll be on the forums to answer your questions.
Since they asked for feedback on the tank, here's an idea: replace the turret with an unmanned weapon pod that can be stowed for transport, like the APC in Aliens. I'd also make the hull wider, but I didn't put that in the picture.
Edit, ok so I've opened the firefight rules on my tablet and their identical to the alpha? Am I missing something?
You have to open them in adobe and not just your browser, the rules are the same but the document is studded with comment boxes explaining where and what the current planned and potential differences are going to be
Edit, ok so I've opened the firefight rules on my tablet and their identical to the alpha? Am I missing something?
You have to open them in adobe and not just your browser, the rules are the same but the document is studded with comment boxes explaining where and what the current planned and potential differences are going to be
ok can't do that on my tablet can someone explain the differences and please I hope it just not make one model count as a team of one or I rage quit mantic
edlowe wrote: ok can't do that on my tablet can someone explain the differences and please I hope it just not make one model count as a team of one or I rage quit mantic
Can do chief, I'll copy over the comments. Buckle up, it's a little bit of a slab all at once, each bit is preceded by the subtitle it's attached to on the page if you want to cross reference
Spoiler:
Teams - This is the most fundamental change - teams do not exist. The statlines will be for a single figure, and 'units' will be made up of these single figures. Throughout the rest of the rules, just read 'team' as 'model'.
Hubs - See the other comments throughout on hubs. Either they need to be integral or be deleted entirely. It depends on the level of granularity that people are looking for.
Positioning - All models must be within 2" of another model in the unit, and there is no requirement in relation to the hub. The rules about entering within 1" of another unit or a terrain piece remain the same.
LoS - For simplicity, I think line of sight should be drawn from the hub of the unit as before - the rules remain the same. Individually checking for each model would slow the game down, and in most cases wouldn't make a difference. However, I understand that this might be a sticking point for people who want to focus on the detail of how to place their models. Something to discuss.
Unit statistics - Instead of a statline for each team, there will be a statline for each model. In the case of a Corporation Marine, it would be:
Spd 5
Acc 4+
Def 4+
Brk 1
Weaponry
Laser Rifle: Range 24", Power 1, AP -
Assault: Range A, Power 1
There is a good case for revamping the statline entirely for WP Firefight - putting melee attacks into the main statline, and having weapons listed separately. The unit entry would then list all the statlines and tell you how many of each type of model you could have, in the same way that WH40K does. Potentially there would be another stat to interact with Suppression - see later in the document. The unit selection and statline is the area of the rules that would need the most radical change in Firefight. Its interaction with the rules would be largely the same, but we would redo the army list. In the case of a heavy weapons team or any other model consisting of multiple figures on a single base, the simplest method would be to list the figures separately. However, this would be awkward if the damage caused was only enough to kill one of them. For Firefight it would probably make sense to add a rule for how to allocate damage on a unit with varying break points. We'll just need to work out a way to do this without it slowing the game down.
Break point - This would be a single number rather than a series, and any damage caused would remove that many Break Points' worth of models. This stat could move to the individual statline rather than the overall unit statline, which would be cleaner especially if there were varying break points within a unit. At that point it might just be more elegant to just have individual statlines for everyone as mentioned previously. It would be ok to then have varying Accuracy stats within a unit, but varying Speed or Defence would require additional rules to be added to the game, which I would prefer to avoid. One problem with this change is that it does lose some of the subtlety of the stats. In Firefight, an Enforcer and a Corp Marine will both have a Break Point of 1, so the only difference is the Defence value. In Warpath, an Enforcer has a Break Point of 0.8 and a Corp Marine 0.6, and Forge Guard have a Break Point of 1. Using fractions is far too mathematical for what is supposed to be a quick game, so Firefight will have to use whole numbers only. To differentiate between troop types, new special rules will have to be added, or I will have to come up with a new stat to represent the element of morale/nerve/leadership that is currently part of the Break Point. See Suppression.
Move short action - Movement is one of the simple parts of Warpath that will probably need to be changed for Firefight. There are two options: Movement is still measured from the hub and carried out exactly as it is now. However, this will mean that there has to be a limit on how far models can be from the hub, or it would be open to hugely exploitable leapfrog moves. Restricting how far models can be from the hub limits unit sizes and formation shapes. Alternatively, movement is measured for each model. This is cleaner and far less exploitable, but physically slower to do. I think this is the more practical option for Firefight, and it will be the area where the speed of the game has to be compromised for the required granularity. If we go with the second option, it is one less thing that hubs are required for. There comes a point where they could be done away with altogether - if we changed line of sight to also be measured for every model, hubs wouldn't be needed, but this would be another thing to slow the game down. How far do people want to go?
Range - Currently, range is measured separately for each team within a unit, this would simply change to being separate for each model within a unit. Remove casualties - As discussed previously, a number of models would be removed based on how many Break Points' worth of damage was done. So, if each model had a Break Point of 1, and the unit took 9 damage, 9 models would be removed. If each model had a Break Point of 2 and took 9 damage, 4 models would be removed. In addition, casualties would have to be restricted to only models within range and line of sight - other models cannot be hurt.
Suppression test - As detailed in the Changes document, I am considering removing this entirely for WP. It will definitely be removed for Firefight.
Flee - Unlike Shooting, I would want to leave this section in for Assault, to keep them brutal. However, the actual mechanic would have to be reworked depending on how Suppression is addressed.
Suppression - The rules for Suppression could actually be kept largely he same if we wished - as there are no more teams, a unit would be Suppressed if it had more suppression tokens than every 5 Break Points' worth of models in the unit, rounding up. So, a unit with a combined Break Point of 6-10 would be Suppressed if it had 3 or more tokens; and a unit with a combined Break Point of 11-15 would be Suppressed on 4 or more tokens. However, this is a little clunky to write, and to calculating it mid-game may be awkward for units with Break Points higher than 1. I think the better solution for Firefight would be to add some sort of morale/nerve/leadership stat, and base suppression and grounding on that.
Recovery - Recovery exists in the first place to provide a way to kill units that are too tough for you to reach their break point normally. Considering that Break Points will be lower in Firefight, it is no longer needed and the rule can just be ignored.
Combined attack - The original purpose of this order was to allow units to overwhelm enemies even if they couldn't beat their break points individually. However, with individual casualties the order is far less useful. In Firefight I would add to it so that taking fire from multiple directions causes more Suppression. It would inflict 1 point for being hit by each unit, another point if there were more hits than models, and another point if there were twice as many hits as models.
edlowe wrote: ok can't do that on my tablet can someone explain the differences and please I hope it just not make one model count as a team of one or I rage quit mantic
Can do chief, I'll copy over the comments. Buckle up, it's a little bit of a slab all at once, each bit is preceded by the subtitle it's attached to on the page if you want to cross reference
Spoiler:
Teams - This is the most fundamental change - teams do not exist. The statlines will be for a single figure, and 'units' will be made up of these single figures. Throughout the rest of the rules, just read 'team' as 'model'.
Hubs - See the other comments throughout on hubs. Either they need to be integral or be deleted entirely. It depends on the level of granularity that people are looking for.
Positioning - All models must be within 2" of another model in the unit, and there is no requirement in relation to the hub. The rules about entering within 1" of another unit or a terrain piece remain the same.
LoS - For simplicity, I think line of sight should be drawn from the hub of the unit as before - the rules remain the same. Individually checking for each model would slow the game down, and in most cases wouldn't make a difference. However, I understand that this might be a sticking point for people who want to focus on the detail of how to place their models. Something to discuss.
Unit statistics - Instead of a statline for each team, there will be a statline for each model. In the case of a Corporation Marine, it would be:
Spd 5
Acc 4+
Def 4+
Brk 1
Weaponry
Laser Rifle: Range 24", Power 1, AP -
Assault: Range A, Power 1
There is a good case for revamping the statline entirely for WP Firefight - putting melee attacks into the main statline, and having weapons listed separately. The unit entry would then list all the statlines and tell you how many of each type of model you could have, in the same way that WH40K does. Potentially there would be another stat to interact with Suppression - see later in the document. The unit selection and statline is the area of the rules that would need the most radical change in Firefight. Its interaction with the rules would be largely the same, but we would redo the army list. In the case of a heavy weapons team or any other model consisting of multiple figures on a single base, the simplest method would be to list the figures separately. However, this would be awkward if the damage caused was only enough to kill one of them. For Firefight it would probably make sense to add a rule for how to allocate damage on a unit with varying break points. We'll just need to work out a way to do this without it slowing the game down.
Break point - This would be a single number rather than a series, and any damage caused would remove that many Break Points' worth of models. This stat could move to the individual statline rather than the overall unit statline, which would be cleaner especially if there were varying break points within a unit. At that point it might just be more elegant to just have individual statlines for everyone as mentioned previously. It would be ok to then have varying Accuracy stats within a unit, but varying Speed or Defence would require additional rules to be added to the game, which I would prefer to avoid. One problem with this change is that it does lose some of the subtlety of the stats. In Firefight, an Enforcer and a Corp Marine will both have a Break Point of 1, so the only difference is the Defence value. In Warpath, an Enforcer has a Break Point of 0.8 and a Corp Marine 0.6, and Forge Guard have a Break Point of 1. Using fractions is far too mathematical for what is supposed to be a quick game, so Firefight will have to use whole numbers only. To differentiate between troop types, new special rules will have to be added, or I will have to come up with a new stat to represent the element of morale/nerve/leadership that is currently part of the Break Point. See Suppression.
Move short action - Movement is one of the simple parts of Warpath that will probably need to be changed for Firefight. There are two options: Movement is still measured from the hub and carried out exactly as it is now. However, this will mean that there has to be a limit on how far models can be from the hub, or it would be open to hugely exploitable leapfrog moves. Restricting how far models can be from the hub limits unit sizes and formation shapes. Alternatively, movement is measured for each model. This is cleaner and far less exploitable, but physically slower to do. I think this is the more practical option for Firefight, and it will be the area where the speed of the game has to be compromised for the required granularity. If we go with the second option, it is one less thing that hubs are required for. There comes a point where they could be done away with altogether - if we changed line of sight to also be measured for every model, hubs wouldn't be needed, but this would be another thing to slow the game down. How far do people want to go?
Range - Currently, range is measured separately for each team within a unit, this would simply change to being separate for each model within a unit. Remove casualties - As discussed previously, a number of models would be removed based on how many Break Points' worth of damage was done. So, if each model had a Break Point of 1, and the unit took 9 damage, 9 models would be removed. If each model had a Break Point of 2 and took 9 damage, 4 models would be removed. In addition, casualties would have to be restricted to only models within range and line of sight - other models cannot be hurt.
Suppression test - As detailed in the Changes document, I am considering removing this entirely for WP. It will definitely be removed for Firefight.
Flee - Unlike Shooting, I would want to leave this section in for Assault, to keep them brutal. However, the actual mechanic would have to be reworked depending on how Suppression is addressed.
Suppression - The rules for Suppression could actually be kept largely he same if we wished - as there are no more teams, a unit would be Suppressed if it had more suppression tokens than every 5 Break Points' worth of models in the unit, rounding up. So, a unit with a combined Break Point of 6-10 would be Suppressed if it had 3 or more tokens; and a unit with a combined Break Point of 11-15 would be Suppressed on 4 or more tokens. However, this is a little clunky to write, and to calculating it mid-game may be awkward for units with Break Points higher than 1. I think the better solution for Firefight would be to add some sort of morale/nerve/leadership stat, and base suppression and grounding on that.
Recovery - Recovery exists in the first place to provide a way to kill units that are too tough for you to reach their break point normally. Considering that Break Points will be lower in Firefight, it is no longer needed and the rule can just be ignored.
Combined attack - The original purpose of this order was to allow units to overwhelm enemies even if they couldn't beat their break points individually. However, with individual casualties the order is far less useful. In Firefight I would add to it so that taking fire from multiple directions causes more Suppression. It would inflict 1 point for being hit by each unit, another point if there were more hits than models, and another point if there were twice as many hits as models.
Thanks NTrabbit, those changes actually sound pretty good, I'd prefer to see them as a complete pdf on their own but I think its not a bad direction for the firefight rules.
I still fear mantic are splitting the fan base and gane. I was instantly put off by the original alpha once I read through it. Far too much of an abstract and simplistic (for the sake of selling more models) game.
I'm actually impressed they seem to have considered that some people (me included) want a good 40k alternative and not some bloated 'mass battles' system. I feel more comfortable filling out my dzi pledge for mt vermyn army now. I just hope mantic don't sell either scale of game short now they've decided on these route.
AlexHolker wrote: Since they asked for feedback on the tank, here's an idea: replace the turret with an unmanned weapon pod that can be stowed for transport, like the APC in Aliens. I'd also make the hull wider, but I didn't put that in the picture.
That is an awesome idea.
Glad they are releasing some tanks for the Forge Fathers, as it stands the Ramshackle Games tanks are probably the best things out there style-wise for the faction.
I look forward to seeing what are considered Massive Infantry, since their rules sound similar to vehicles.
I'm guessing stuff like Striders and Iron Ancestors, but I'm hoping for bigger and crazier things.
Between Mars Attacks, Deadzone, and Deadzone Infestation, I feel I should have a good amount of stuff to properly try Warpath out in terms of both terrain and armies.
And on that note, I do hope we see rules for Martians in Warpath. Lord knows I've got enough of them...
That Tank looks exactly as I'd imagined a FF tank would look. I didn't like the shredder render until I started thinking about them as vermin supermutants. I wonder if anyone has had a game or two of the Mars attack wargaming supplement? I imagine Warpath Firefight will be the same in quality but with maybe the addition of QC the rules committee brings. Probably a good time to get some games in if you want to help shape WPF! Neat that they had a play at deadzone scales.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: I look forward to seeing what are considered Massive Infantry, since their rules sound similar to vehicles.
I'm guessing stuff like Striders and Iron Ancestors, but I'm hoping for bigger and crazier things.
The only massive infantry listed so far are the plague Aberration, Plague Terraton and the 1st Gen. Striders and Iron Ancestors are vehicles. The Night Terror and Broodmother are likely candidates for massive infantry.
AlexHolker wrote: Since they asked for feedback on the tank, here's an idea: replace the turret with an unmanned weapon pod that can be stowed for transport, like the APC in Aliens. I'd also make the hull wider, but I didn't put that in the picture.
That is an awesome idea.
I cross-posted it to Mantic's Forgefather sub-forum. If you'd like to see it happen, giving it a thumbs-up over there would probably help.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: I look forward to seeing what are considered Massive Infantry, since their rules sound similar to vehicles.
I'm guessing stuff like Striders and Iron Ancestors, but I'm hoping for bigger and crazier things.
The only massive infantry listed so far are the plague Aberration, Plague Terraton and the 1st Gen. Striders and Iron Ancestors are vehicles. The Night Terror and Broodmother are likely candidates for massive infantry.
What about the Plague 1st Gen? (Sometimes called the "Plague Lord.")
I really hope the FF tanks end up as two separate hulls. I know it's more expensive for Mantic, but I can't stand how GW has based so many things off of the Rhino.. I would hate to see Mantic adopt that practice.
MLaw wrote: I really hope the FF tanks end up as two separate hulls. I know it's more expensive for Mantic, but I can't stand how GW has based so many things off of the Rhino.. I would hate to see Mantic adopt that practice.
Real armies do the same thing. As long as the vehicles are good, being based on the same chassis is fine.
Same as how the Enforcer flyers are one hull with different belly mounted mission pods, and Plague vehicles are going to be the Corp ones but with an extra sprue of plaguey replacement parts like the Strider, just too expensive to do it any differently.
MLaw wrote: I really hope the FF tanks end up as two separate hulls. I know it's more expensive for Mantic, but I can't stand how GW has based so many things off of the Rhino.. I would hate to see Mantic adopt that practice.
Real armies do the same thing. As long as the vehicles are good, being based on the same chassis is fine.
A main battle tank would NEVER be built on the same chassis as an APC.
MLaw wrote: I really hope the FF tanks end up as two separate hulls. I know it's more expensive for Mantic, but I can't stand how GW has based so many things off of the Rhino.. I would hate to see Mantic adopt that practice.
Real armies do the same thing. As long as the vehicles are good, being based on the same chassis is fine.
A main battle tank would NEVER be built on the same chassis as an APC.
*disclaimer - I'm probably wrong*
You're wrong. The Israeli Merkava is not just a shared chassis, it's a main battle tank that can carry six infantry or two stretchers and life support (they also have a variant which removes the main armament to function as a dedicated APC, the Namer).
And really, this is even more thematically appropriate for the Forgefathers. The stereotypical dwarf is someone who regards chainmail as everyday wear and doesn't use the words "heavy armour" to describe anything that can't no-sell a cannonball. If anyone's going to use their MBT chassis to build a suitably indestructible APC, it's the space dwarves.
The British Centurion, Conqueror and Chieftain also served as the basis for engineering vehicles, recovery vehicles, artillery (planned), and APCs; the Conqueror in particular was the heavy tank component of the proposed FV200 'Universal Tank' series, while the Centurion chassis has been turned into every kind of military vehicle you could possibly imagine.
They are in a minority though.
Still, it doesn't really matter, because an entirely different hard plastic kit for each vehicle is beyond affordable for anyone in this industry.
NTRabbit wrote: The British Centurion, Conqueror and Chieftain also served as the basis for engineering vehicles, recovery vehicles, artillery (planned), and APCs; the Conqueror in particular was the heavy tank component of the proposed FV200 'Universal Tank' series, while the Centurion chassis has been turned into every kind of military vehicle you could possibly imagine.
They are in a minority though.
Still, it doesn't really matter, because an entirely different hard plastic kit for each vehicle is beyond affordable for anyone in this industry.
Aha!
I get to be right for a minute..
GW has a Chimera AND a Leman Russ.. Granted the Chimera is basis for a gazillion things but the Leman Russ MBT is it's own beast with it's own set of variants. (one of GW's few practices that I actually do like).
I never wanted everything to have it's own kit btw, I would prefer APCs and MBTs not be from the same kit.. that's all. If they want a heavy tank and a light tank which serves as a flexible platform.. cool.. I just really don't like the idea of simply popping a turret on a vehicle and calling it a MBT.
I really appreciate that Dreamforge plans on having a STuG kit that's separate from it's APC. Anyway.. I am excited about the art they showed for planned releases. It's LOADS better than the stuff we saw a while back (the wolf jeep thing..eesh). While I might grumble, I will very likely be purchasing some of these kits.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Yeah, these kits look like exactly the kind of thing I would buy ...through a pledge manager after seeing some production prototypes or something.
lol, yeah.. Mantic.. when they get it right.. wow.. but when they get it wrong.. whoah.. Hopefully, they stick to their word on the next Kickstarter.
GW has a Chimera AND a Leman Russ.. Granted the Chimera is basis for a gazillion things but the Leman Russ MBT is it's own beast with it's own set of variants. (one of GW's few practices that I actually do like).
Well, that is true for Imperial Guard yes, and Necrons have 4 chassis for 7 tank-equivalents as well.
On the other hand, the Rhino is the base for nearly everything in both the Space Marine and Chaos Space Marine armies, every Eldar tank is a Falcon, and the Tau are all Devilfish
GW has a Chimera AND a Leman Russ.. Granted the Chimera is basis for a gazillion things but the Leman Russ MBT is it's own beast with it's own set of variants. (one of GW's few practices that I actually do like).
Well, that is true for Imperial Guard yes, and Necrons have 4 chassis for 7 tank-equivalents as well.
On the other hand, the Rhino is the base for nearly everything in both the Space Marine and Chaos Space Marine armies, every Eldar tank is a Falcon, and the Tau are all Devilfish
True.. though if you look at Forgeworld there are quite a few more chassis being used by both armies. Even within the GW house SMs have Land Raiders and I would consider Land Speeders to be a light attack vehicle.. granted it hovers but other than that, I would say it's battlefield role is similar to that of a light tank or armoured scout vehicle.
I think the beauty of it is, we can have it both ways. There are enough models out there that are similar enough to the FF aesthetic that I can choose to use different styles while people who are fussed can just roll with the default. win/win
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kodos wrote: Some nations use different tanks for different task, while others use "one for all".
That actually brings up another good point which was already discussed.. the resources and more importantly the mentality of the army/society being discussed. If the resources are in great abundance but population not so much, they may place greater value on ensuring the safety of their troops. Where a society with less resources and an abundance of bodies would be strained to provide decent armor for all transports and would want to ensure that artillery/tanks are durable so that they don't have to be replaced.. hmm..
So we don't have to muck about with the DBX social networking minigame before every match, I did all the work upfront and made a cost sheet for all the players for all the sponsors. Well, so far still missing the mutants and scrapheap challenge robots, free agents and MVPs, but I am halfway there.
Ah, the color of the price indicates which of the 3 hiring costs the sponsor is paying, so you know if you're getting a good deal or not.
TBH, I don't know if I'll play much DBX, despite having all the KS stuff. Gave it a go once and the extra setup and team selection was just too complex to be worth it over playing regular dreadball.
Also, the player manual took far too long to come out, should have been there 6 months ago, don't know if anyone is interested in playing it, even though regular DB is massively popular.. most of the excitement has been over the release of the season 4,5 and 6 team rules.
With all of this debate regarding mass battles and firefight I think the simplest way to see what people prefer is to make it visual. Here is a poll I made where you can vote on which version of the game you want to play. Feel free to share your opinion!
Well Mantic is going to get to keep my $1 pledge, they can use it to offset the shipping . I'm going to wait to see my Dungeon Saga and KOW2 stuff first before I give over any more money. Besides my pledges for Zombicide, MODcube and others have drained my limited gaming reserve.
DaveC wrote: The PM is only open today for EB Quarantine backers the others will go out from Monday.
I'm curious about the increased shipping costs the update doesn't give monetary details.
A naked Lockdown pledge is $30 shipping
To Australia? They guesstimated that a Quarantine would be $25 to Australia, and Lock Down is twice a heavy so I guess it's actually a better deal than expected?
Quarantine and Lockdown with no add ons were both $30 to me in Australia so yeah, I think for us at least most pledges will fall into one bigass weight category
The drone is much less terrible, but still pretty bad. And the proportions on the female soldier at the front are crap - they made the hips and waist narrower instead of the chest, the exact opposite of how you sculpt a woman.
That drone looks pretty silly, I prefer the more practical and less "cool transformer dog" look of the original. The pathfinders look ace though! ...but what's up with that poor girl's waist? Is she wearing a corset?
Going from the photo alone, deciding to do male and female pathfinder enforcers in the same batch with interchangeable torsos was a mistake.
The dog is a classic "almost," and I say that as someone who's tired of that meme, but if the meme fits. . . Give it a slight walking / stalking pose, tone down the ham-fisted enforcer shoulder pad design reference, replace the back-mounted gun turret with one that looks like it belongs there (that Enforcer heavy gun only looks good when an Enforcer is holding it - I wish they'd stop mounting it on drones, buildings, and vehicles), and it would have looked awesome and the kit would have sold better. In the short term they made a deadline, over the long term they're stuck with having to store / sell / Crazy Christmas box umpteen copies of the thing.
Depending on how one-piece solid / hard to cut it is, the dog might have potential for those willing to put in the time to modify it.
Vermonter wrote: Going from the photo alone, deciding to do male and female pathfinder enforcers in the same batch with interchangeable torsos was a mistake.
The dog is a classic "almost," and I say that as someone who's tired of that meme, but if the meme fits. . . Give it a slight walking / stalking pose, tone down the ham-fisted enforcer shoulder pad design reference, replace the back-mounted gun turret with one that looks like it belongs there (that Enforcer heavy gun only looks good when an Enforcer is holding it - I wish they'd stop mounting it on drones, buildings, and vehicles), and it would have looked awesome and the kit would have sold better. In the short term they made a deadline, over the long term they're stuck with having to store / sell / Crazy Christmas box umpteen copies of the thing.
Depending on how one-piece solid / hard to cut it is, the dog might have potential for those willing to put in the time to modify it.
So, out of curiosity, what are the sales figures for the kit that hasn't been sold yet? I'm dying to know.
The shoulder pads, head and tail really make that model look goofy. It looks like one episode reject from Rescue Bots. However, if those parts are easy to cut off, the drone will look pretty good for what I would want.
I wonder how they would look next to Robotech or DZC mecha.
Well the pledge manager openning on monday for now eb backers has me in a conundrum. I'm still waiting to hear or see whats happening with the wp:ff rules and if they are definitely being developed. I'm not sure if I still want to pick up some vermyn because their cheaper now or wait till we hear more.
I'm thinking of just grabbing some of the plastics as going to be much cheaper now than post ks.
Does anyone have a link to the spreadsheet someone made to track which minis were included in what add on? I may have posted this before, but I can't see it anywhere.
Kind of a long shot here but does anyone know of a site in the UK that sells individual Battlezones sprues? I need a Fortification sprue A (or more specifically, the large gate and gate post) before Tuesday night since I managed to miscount the number I already have.
eBay used to be awash with single sprues but these days, not so much. I guess I could ask Mantic themselves but I'd be lucky if someone actually replied to my mail before August..
Ugh.. just got my robot team in from DBX.. they pulled the same crap they did in the DZ KS. A small bag with parts for all the robots all in one bag, off the sprue. It's gotta be 100 little parts with no way of knowing what goes where or what these things are supposed to be. It appears to be restic, and there's freaking air bubbles and badly clipped sprue sections, resulting in warping all over the place. I'm moderately pissed at Mantic right now.
Thanks DaveC, I'll have to make sure and log on with my tablet later and download that. This is annoying.. I don't know why I expected anything different outta Mantic.
MLaw wrote: Thanks DaveC, I'll have to make sure and log on with my tablet later and download that. This is annoying.. I don't know why I expected anything different outta Mantic.
The robots were advertized from day 1 as build-your-own kits for advanced modelers, so I don't know what you expected.
MLaw wrote: Thanks DaveC, I'll have to make sure and log on with my tablet later and download that. This is annoying.. I don't know why I expected anything different outta Mantic.
The robots were advertized from day 1 as build-your-own kits for advanced modelers, so I don't know what you expected.
Ah, well.. I originally just went in for the sci-fi civillian types and added them in during pledge manager. However.. dismissing me because I didn't know that doesn't change the fact that
a)they were crappily removed from the sprue creating major problems with the components
b)they were all thrown into the same baggy haphazardly, meaning I have to sort through and dig out all of the arms, legs, heads, etc
c)they are in restic and have quality control issues which have been present before.
All your comment says is that yes.. they were in fact going to be a multi-part kit.. which ... surprise.. most of the models I build are. What most of the models I build are not, is lacking in quality and slapped haphazardly into a bag after being damaged by the people removing them from the sprues. Anything else you want to point out?
lololololol.. no. I backed DZ1.
I don't know why I thought the robots were going to be in something other than restic.. but Mantic was also mentioning that they had "improved" restic or somesuch.. all I remember is that they offered reassurances that the problems with DZ restic wouldn't resurface..
And then changes their mind when they have our money.
Well they got my $1 for the DZ:infestation, and that's all they are getting. Especially if they still don't give the Renaldo the Bard figure to the KOW2 backers like it was promised.
Also, Mantic stated right in the email to backers that this is the ONLY time the PM will be open. No half truths or wrong impressions it might reopen. Very straight forward "only right now, until the 27th". That's it. No second PM, just this one.
Not a huge fan of the wide-spray chem-thrower, but the regular supersoaker sprayer and the remaining minis look great. I'll stick with my plastics for now, but as soon as Progenitors are released in plastics, if they look the same as those sculpts I may end up picking up a couple boxes!
Yeah I don't like those rats at all, too much Cartoon Network/children's toys and not enough grimdark. It's baffling that the Enforcers and Pathfinders are so well done yet both design wise and sculpting wise yet almost all other Warpath/Deadzone minis look really bad...
Mymearan wrote: Yeah I don't like those rats at all, too much Cartoon Network/children's toys and not enough grimdark. It's baffling that the Enforcers and Pathfinders are so well done yet both design wise and sculpting wise yet almost all other Warpath/Deadzone minis look really bad...
Deadzone: Infestation Pledge Manager closing in a week.
With one week to go before the Deadzone: Infestation Pledge Manager closes time is running short to get your pledge confirmed or upgrade to the Lockdown Pledge.
We worked out that is set contains around $600 worth of stuff (See the pic below) and even we were surprised at just how good this deal was!
The Pledge Manager closes at midnight BST 27-Jul-2015 and there will be no second chances for this Pledge Manager as we will be sending the order numbers shortly after if closes.
Thank you all for you support in making this Kickstarter succeed.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Some very cool pieces there. Love those pipes and guardrails. By the time these sets drop there's going to be a lot of variety on my DZ board.
Makes me antsy for Mantic to come up with a fantasy equivalent one of these days.
Manic fantasy terrain would all be huge doors with embarrassingly low doorknobs.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Some very cool pieces there. Love those pipes and guardrails. By the time these sets drop there's going to be a lot of variety on my DZ board.
Makes me antsy for Mantic to come up with a fantasy equivalent one of these days.
Manic fantasy terrain would all be huge doors with embarrassingly low doorknobs.
I feel like they would all taper at the bottom too..
So the scenery which we already know that Mantic can do well they show us. The stuff that has proven repeatedly problematic in the past hard plastic infantry is very purposefully not being shown. Feels like a bait and switch to me.
If the pledge manager window being so narrow is justified by production windows there surely must be more stuff ready to show even if its just sprue renders. We know there's a painted prototype of the new dog drone as they use an incredibly tiny picture of it used on the pledge manager store so why can't they show it to us properly?
I know Kings of War is exploding at the moment, and I'm sure thats quite sensibly where the companies focus is. I know Mantic has kickstarter ADHD on an institutional level but this is just getting ridiculous with the lack of attention Deadzone is receiving.
David Clarke wrote: So the scenery which we already know that Mantic can do well they show us. The stuff that has proven repeatedly problematic in the past hard plastic infantry is very purposefully not being shown. Feels like a bait and switch to me.
If the pledge manager window being so narrow is justified by production windows there surely must be more stuff ready to show even if its just sprue renders. We know there's a painted prototype of the new dog drone as they use an incredibly tiny picture of it used on the pledge manager store so why can't they show it to us properly?
I know Kings of War is exploding at the moment, and I'm sure thats quite sensibly where the companies focus is. I know Mantic has kickstarter ADHD on an institutional level but this is just getting ridiculous with the lack of attention Deadzone is receiving.
There is a dog drone picture like two pages back in this thread and on a load of mantic and kickstarter mailshots.
You've seen masters of the pathfinders and DOG, you've seen renders of the two kinds of rat, if that's not enough you're fully entitled to not buy anything in the PM.
Having all of their most recent plastic sprues in hand - Enforcer, Peacekeeper, Forge Guard, SciFi Zombie - I'm fully confident in their ability to deliver quality product, and have bought accordingly.
David Clarke wrote: So the scenery which we already know that Mantic can do well they show us. The stuff that has proven repeatedly problematic in the past hard plastic infantry is very purposefully not being shown. Feels like a bait and switch to me.
dragqueeninspace wrote: There is a dog drone picture like two pages back in this thread and on a load of mantic and kickstarter mailshots.
The same low res picture being repeated ad nauseam does not an update make. I have read every update and kept up to date with this thread. The model exists and I would just like to see something other than a quick dodgy photoshop job so I can see it actually in scale with the other models. If the model exists why on earth wouldn't Mantic want to show it to us properly? Its their creation so surely they must be proud of it?
Don't quite know what you are getting at there mate, so I'll explain myself to see if we are not misunderstanding one another. Mantic's Deadzone scenery whilst having a crap connector system, has everywhere I've been has been received positively as good modular plastic terrain and one of the best things to come out of the first kickstarter. Mantic's hard plastic infantry production as far as I am aware has been mainly a tail of woe and poor reviews. I know some kits have come out fine those original skeletons for kings of wars were a thing of beauty and as far as I am aware the more recent Enforcer kits have been at an acceptable standard. But then there were kits like the Basilean men at arms or the original steel warriors that just didn't deliver or the ForgeGuard whose production problems set back one of the Deadzone release waves by several months. When I'm shown a new version of a product that I've heard only good about and am met with stony silence on the subject that could be a potential major fail my spider senses start telling me that someone is trying to pull one over on me.
I know kickstarter is more than an elaborate pre-order system and a lot has to be taken on faith. Guess what one of the best ways to inspire that kind of faith is? Open and honest communication. The more I know the better decisions I can make and I'll be much more comfortable parting with my money. I get that theres a lot people with more money and an overabundance of good will/fondness for risk taking than me, that's great we're all different people. Is it really that wrong to want to be able to make a reasonably informed decision before entering a speculative financial arrangement with a partner who you know to have engaged in dubious practices in the past?
That terrain looks great. After Renedra failed completely to deliver decent fantasy ruins in plastic, maybe Mantic could get something done up to the same standard as the Deadline stuff has been.
If Reaper Miniatures are to be believed.. then Mantic is already being dishonest by using Kickstarter to sell existing products (in DZ:I they sold DZ sets and all of KoW was existing minis +new rules..that..are free). So either Reaper miniatures is lying about KS requiring project creators to only offer new items as rewards or Mantic is violating a core rule of kickstarter campaigns. This is definitely a chin-scratcher for me..
As to Mantic delivering or not.. I have absolutely no doubt Mantic will deliver products. The quality of that product however is not guaranteed. They have product ranging from worst Heroclix sculpt level quality all the way up to "holy crap that's awesome!" quality.
David Clarke makes some interesting points but the delay from the FF set doesn't pertain to the final quality of those products, just Mantic hitting a (IMO fairly typical) production snag that they did make an effort to smooth over.
At the end of the day, Mantic is in the business of creating models (and games I guess) to make money. They've never been shy about the fact that they're riding on GWs' coat-tails and using the growing swell of players fleeing that sinking ship to float their own boats. If you think a business who builds their model around that kind of philosophy is at their core, good, honest, and to be trusted, then I have a bridge to sell you. It's right next to this toy shop in the North Pole.. fantastic view.
Both enforcer kits were solid, quality plastic kits as well. So were the plague zombies. Forgefather plastics turned out solid too, from what I gather. They seem to have the plastics worked out pretty well now.
Bolognesus wrote: Both enforcer kits were solid, quality plastic kits as well. So were the plague zombies. Forgefather plastics turned out solid too, from what I gather. They seem to have the plastics worked out pretty well now.
Yeah, they're plastic tooling is on par with GW in most of the newest instances I've seen. It's their sculpts that I keep finding wanting. Tiny foot syndrome is an unfortunate truth for many of their figures. With a small donation equal to a cup of coffee, you could proved regular feet to one lucky miniature. In return, we'll send you.. this hand towel with our logo and your model will write you a heartfelt thank you note for bringing them the gift of regular sized feet.
MLaw wrote: If Reaper Miniatures are to be believed.. then Mantic is already being dishonest by using Kickstarter to sell existing products (in DZ:I they sold DZ sets and all of KoW was existing minis +new rules..that..are free). So either Reaper miniatures is lying about KS requiring project creators to only offer new items as rewards or Mantic is violating a core rule of kickstarter campaigns. This is definitely a chin-scratcher for me..
Or Reaper is just wrong.
Can I offer rewards that aren't produced by me or my project?
All rewards should be produced directly by you or your project. If your project is a collaborative effort, offering rewards produced by your collaborators is fine too!
Rewards not produced by the creator - We prohibit rewards not designed or produced by the creator. If your project is a collaborative effort, offering rewards produced by your collaborators is fine. We also allow creators to offer branded swag as rewards, though we don't recommend it. They tend to be much less compelling than unique rewards that speak to the spirit of your project. Additionally, offering experiential rewards (a trip somewhere with the band, a prop from the film, the guitarist's signed guitar), is within our rules.
As long as Mantic is only selling stuff they make, the rules seem to allow offering existing items.
Bolognesus wrote: Both enforcer kits were solid, quality plastic kits as well. So were the plague zombies. Forgefather plastics turned out solid too, from what I gather. They seem to have the plastics worked out pretty well now.
Yeah, they're plastic tooling is on par with GW in most of the newest instances I've seen. It's their sculpts that I keep finding wanting. Tiny foot syndrome is an unfortunate truth for many of their figures. With a small donation equal to a cup of coffee, you could proved regular feet to one lucky miniature. In return, we'll send you.. this hand towel with our logo and your model will write you a heartfelt thank you note for bringing them the gift of regular sized feet.
...You realise there's, like, actual renders of most of the plastic stuff available, as it already was while the KS was still running?
then there's this naive doozy from your previous post:
. They've never been shy about the fact that they're riding on GWs' coat-tails and using the growing swell of players fleeing that sinking ship to float their own boats. If you think a business who builds their model around that kind of philosophy is at their core, good, honest, and to be trusted, then I have a bridge to sell you. It's right next to this toy shop in the North Pole.. fantastic view.
Right. Because making derivatives of products of complacent industry giants is bad now? Good grief, that's where most innovation comes from. Additionally, and staying within the tabletop gaming industry here, compare and contrast Paizo with Palladium. Palladium's product tends to be very, very original (probably some of the least derivative RPG's of the last decades AFAIK) - and they're **horrible** as a company. I mean, seriously, look it up. They're infamously bad. Paizo makes pathfinder (and let's face it, a closer analogy to KoW hitching a ride on WHFB and/or that AoS monstrosity would be hard to even imagine) - and guess what? They do it by actually listening to their core audience and delivering a product that that core audience wants.
Paizo bad now, too?
Sorry if mr Renton apparently wee'ed in your cheerios sometime in the recent past, but let's cut at least the obviously inane arguments, shall we?
Bolognesus wrote: Both enforcer kits were solid, quality plastic kits as well. So were the plague zombies. Forgefather plastics turned out solid too, from what I gather. They seem to have the plastics worked out pretty well now.
Well, they were good enough. They weren't great. They certainly weren't on par with Renedra, Wargames Factory or Games Workshop. Mostly, this is probably due to Mantic's inexperience on sculpting minis for plastic production, but there were also spots of melty-soft detail, poor fit, and poorly placed connection points/mold split. The type of plastic is also harder than most HIPS, and responds poorly to 'plastic glue' meant for polystyrene kits (but works fine with plastic weld). They certainly weren't $4-per-mini quality plastics. I feel 5 for $10 is about the most I'd spend on the new Mantic plastics per mini.
Most companies seem to be offering up older and existing stock these days, often at some sort of promo price or deal, since those funds are going to help fund whatever their current endeavor on Kickstarter is.
I see no harm if Mantic offers up existing terrain or armies to help fund new pieces.
I've been pretty happy with their newer plastics. My biggest gripe with some of the newer pieces is how certain torsos only seemed to match up to certain pairs of legs, when I'd rather everything be a lot more flexible. A little extra variety never hurts.
Bolognesus wrote: Both enforcer kits were solid, quality plastic kits as well. So were the plague zombies. Forgefather plastics turned out solid too, from what I gather. They seem to have the plastics worked out pretty well now.
Yeah, they're plastic tooling is on par with GW in most of the newest instances I've seen. It's their sculpts that I keep finding wanting. Tiny foot syndrome is an unfortunate truth for many of their figures. With a small donation equal to a cup of coffee, you could proved regular feet to one lucky miniature. In return, we'll send you.. this hand towel with our logo and your model will write you a heartfelt thank you note for bringing them the gift of regular sized feet.
...You realise there's, like, actual renders of most of the plastic stuff available, as it already was while the KS was still running?
then there's this naive doozy from your previous post:
. They've never been shy about the fact that they're riding on GWs' coat-tails and using the growing swell of players fleeing that sinking ship to float their own boats. If you think a business who builds their model around that kind of philosophy is at their core, good, honest, and to be trusted, then I have a bridge to sell you. It's right next to this toy shop in the North Pole.. fantastic view.
Right. Because making derivatives of products of complacent industry giants is bad now? Good grief, that's where most innovation comes from.
Additionally, and staying within the tabletop gaming industry here, compare and contrast Paizo with Palladium. Palladium's product tends to be very, very original (probably some of the least derivative RPG's of the last decades AFAIK) - and they're **horrible** as a company. I mean, seriously, look it up. They're infamously bad. Paizo makes pathfinder (and let's face it, a closer analogy to KoW hitching a ride on WHFB and/or that AoS monstrosity would be hard to even imagine) - and guess what? They do it by actually listening to their core audience and delivering a product that that core audience wants.
Paizo bad now, too?
Sorry if mr Renton apparently wee'ed in your cheerios sometime in the recent past, but let's cut at least the obviously inane arguments, shall we?
So.. here's the thing. I didn't say Mantic was bad. I understand the "defend the brand" type of mentality fans take I do. The problem is, a lot of fans for companies like Mantic, Reaper, GW, WotC, etc forget that these businesses have to put their bottomline first. They aren't your friend. They aren't your relatives or your bud. Just like Mr Renton did not relieve himself in my breakfast, I would assume he also has not joined you for dinner. These are all just businesses and they're all just hustling the best they can, which is getting harder with a lot more fish in the sea.
As to seeing the renders prior to deciding whether or not to purchase. Why, yes.. I am aware of that. If you look a page or three back, you'll see that I made note of my perception of that latest batch of renders we saw of the Veermyn and how it and other previews resulted in my reducing my initially planned Infestation purchase down to a smaller buy of things that are already tooled or that fit my needs. One problem people have though, is that Mantic has on occasion shown us one thing (concept art, renders, or masters) and delivered something.. less than the expectations they set. The most recent example of this is the earth elemental looking thing but there are many others.
Bolognesus wrote: Both enforcer kits were solid, quality plastic kits as well. So were the plague zombies. Forgefather plastics turned out solid too, from what I gather. They seem to have the plastics worked out pretty well now.
Well, they were good enough. They weren't great. They certainly weren't on par with Renedra, Wargames Factory or Games Workshop. Mostly, this is probably due to Mantic's inexperience on sculpting minis for plastic production, but there were also spots of melty-soft detail, poor fit, and poorly placed connection points/mold split. The type of plastic is also harder than most HIPS, and responds poorly to 'plastic glue' meant for polystyrene kits (but works fine with plastic weld). They certainly weren't $4-per-mini quality plastics. I feel 5 for $10 is about the most I'd spend on the new Mantic plastics per mini.
They also haven't learned that a suit of armour needs to fit around the wearer. A helmet needs to be bigger than your head so that you can wear it, while the placement of joints in a segmented exoskeleton must align with those of the wearer so that the wearer's body and the armour can move together.
They also haven't learned that a suit of armour needs to fit around the wearer. A helmet needs to be bigger than your head so that you can wear it, while the placement of joints in a segmented exoskeleton must align with those of the wearer so that the wearer's body and the armour can move together.
To be fair I don't think GW have learned that either and they've been at it alot longer.
Bolognesus wrote: ...So suddenly what you phrased as a specific dig at mantic was apparently just a generic platitude regarding any company, ever. Right.
But keep not-quite-accusing me of arguing from preconceived notions.
The thing is, my comment was, as it happens directed at Mantic. It was not directed at you. However, your response was specifically directed at me so I returned in kind. If you would like to avoid that in the future, I would advise refraining from taking shots at me, especially when the comment in question was my own musings as they relate to a public entity. What you're proposing is that people should not be allowed to express their views towards public entities if it clashes with your own. I would wonder if you are named Kim and posting from a country whose name rhymes with North Tortilla.
They also haven't learned that a suit of armour needs to fit around the wearer. A helmet needs to be bigger than your head so that you can wear it, while the placement of joints in a segmented exoskeleton must align with those of the wearer so that the wearer's body and the armour can move together.
They also haven't learned that a suit of armour needs to fit around the wearer. A helmet needs to be bigger than your head so that you can wear it, while the placement of joints in a segmented exoskeleton must align with those of the wearer so that the wearer's body and the armour can move together.
This isn't really the place to talk about GW.
lol, this is funny. Made me think of West Side Story
"Zima is a clear, lightly carbonated, alcoholic beverage, that was made and distributed by the Coors Brewing Company. "
There is nothing in that sentence which is not an affront to humanity.
I actually liked it as a starter drink when you didn't want to actually taste the alcohol (which maybe for my slavik vodka laddled tongue wasn't perceptible) or as a "maintenance" drink when you already had a good "I can dance" buzz but didn't want to get "I love you guys! *BARF*" drunk.
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Bolognesus wrote: Additionally, and staying within the tabletop gaming industry here, compare and contrast Paizo with Palladium. Palladium's product tends to be very, very original (probably some of the least derivative RPG's of the last decades AFAIK) - and they're **horrible** as a company. I mean, seriously, look it up. They're infamously bad. Paizo makes pathfinder (and let's face it, a closer analogy to KoW hitching a ride on WHFB and/or that AoS monstrosity would be hard to even imagine) - and guess what? They do it by actually listening to their core audience and delivering a product that that core audience wants.
Did someone bash palladium? I feel like I should join in strangely but I'm fresh out of spite until the next robotech non-update.
Bolognesus wrote: Both enforcer kits were solid, quality plastic kits as well. So were the plague zombies. Forgefather plastics turned out solid too, from what I gather. They seem to have the plastics worked out pretty well now.
Well, they were good enough. They weren't great. They certainly weren't on par with Renedra, Wargames Factory or Games Workshop. Mostly, this is probably due to Mantic's inexperience on sculpting minis for plastic production, but there were also spots of melty-soft detail, poor fit, and poorly placed connection points/mold split. The type of plastic is also harder than most HIPS, and responds poorly to 'plastic glue' meant for polystyrene kits (but works fine with plastic weld). They certainly weren't $4-per-mini quality plastics. I feel 5 for $10 is about the most I'd spend on the new Mantic plastics per mini.
They also haven't learned that a suit of armour needs to fit around the wearer. A helmet needs to be bigger than your head so that you can wear it, while the placement of joints in a segmented exoskeleton must align with those of the wearer so that the wearer's body and the armour can move together.
Well, yeah. The designs Mantic likes these days tend not to match real life anatomy. Still, they work as robots...silly robots.
Bolognesus wrote: Both enforcer kits were solid, quality plastic kits as well. So were the plague zombies. Forgefather plastics turned out solid too, from what I gather. They seem to have the plastics worked out pretty well now.
Well, they were good enough. They weren't great. They certainly weren't on par with Renedra, Wargames Factory or Games Workshop. Mostly, this is probably due to Mantic's inexperience on sculpting minis for plastic production, but there were also spots of melty-soft detail, poor fit, and poorly placed connection points/mold split. The type of plastic is also harder than most HIPS, and responds poorly to 'plastic glue' meant for polystyrene kits (but works fine with plastic weld). They certainly weren't $4-per-mini quality plastics. I feel 5 for $10 is about the most I'd spend on the new Mantic plastics per mini.
They also haven't learned that a suit of armour needs to fit around the wearer. A helmet needs to be bigger than your head so that you can wear it, while the placement of joints in a segmented exoskeleton must align with those of the wearer so that the wearer's body and the armour can move together.
Well, yeah. The designs Mantic likes these days tend not to match real life anatomy. Still, they work as robots...silly robots.
lol, it's funny.. I backed the White Dragon KS and the whole time I kept thinking Mantic must've had a hand in the design of that big ass mecha.
Bolognesus wrote: ...So suddenly what you phrased as a specific dig at mantic was apparently just a generic platitude regarding any company, ever. Right.
But keep not-quite-accusing me of arguing from preconceived notions.
The thing is, my comment was, as it happens directed at Mantic. It was not directed at you. However, your response was specifically directed at me so I returned in kind. If you would like to avoid that in the future, I would advise refraining from taking shots at me, especially when the comment in question was my own musings as they relate to a public entity. What you're proposing is that people should not be allowed to express their views towards public entities if it clashes with your own. I would wonder if you are named Kim and posting from a country whose name rhymes with North Tortilla.
Funny thing about forums out here on this newfangled internet thingy is that if you say something that doesn't make sense, this tends to get pointed out to you. To reciprocate the sentiment: if you don't appreciate that, stick with comments-disabled macrame youtube videos
Bolognesus wrote: ...So suddenly what you phrased as a specific dig at mantic was apparently just a generic platitude regarding any company, ever. Right.
But keep not-quite-accusing me of arguing from preconceived notions.
The thing is, my comment was, as it happens directed at Mantic. It was not directed at you. However, your response was specifically directed at me so I returned in kind. If you would like to avoid that in the future, I would advise refraining from taking shots at me, especially when the comment in question was my own musings as they relate to a public entity. What you're proposing is that people should not be allowed to express their views towards public entities if it clashes with your own. I would wonder if you are named Kim and posting from a country whose name rhymes with North Tortilla.
Funny thing about forums out here on this newfangled internet thingy is that if you say something that doesn't make sense, this tends to get pointed out to you. To reciprocate the sentiment: if you don't appreciate that, stick with comments-disabled macrame youtube videos
My comments didn't make sense to you because you took them out of context. Then after the context was explained to you, you stamped your feet like a kid and said "nu-uh". Unless of course you know what my intended message was better than I do? If you would imply that I would be so cowardly as to passive-aggressively attack anyone, I will say this. I don't typically operate that way. As a veteran, a father, a college grad, and a husband of 14 years, I have enough balls to say exactly what I mean. I will also say that since you are so eager to try to stomp on my toes, here they are big boy but you need to make sure you bring some mighty big shoes. Internet tough guys trying to jockey people they don't know and twist what they say is nothing new but you have done it with probably the least grace, tact, or intelligence that I have ever seen it perpetrated with and if you really want to make potential friends into enemies every time someone you don't know pops up then let's keep going that way otherwise keep your ignorant trap shut unless I directly address you.
They also haven't learned that a suit of armour needs to fit around the wearer. A helmet needs to be bigger than your head so that you can wear it, while the placement of joints in a segmented exoskeleton must align with those of the wearer so that the wearer's body and the armour can move together.
To be fair I don't think GW have learned that either and they've been at it alot longer.
It's not ignorance, it's artistic license. Realistically sized helmets would make space marines look like bobble heads and terminators impossible.
Comparing proportions to GW minis doesn't make any sense. GW's minis are not intended to be in perfect scale. They are designed in a specific style, and they are very, very good at hitting that style (usually). Mantic minis used to be truescale. Then they went Rackham. Then they waffled a bit. No matter which scale they are intended to be, they always seem a little bit off the mark, probably due to weak artistic direction and the famous Mantic Art Director Vacuum.
GW minis are like Bruce Timm's artwork:
Stylized, but informed.
Mantic minis are often more like Liefeld artwork:
More realistic in scope, but failing in the execution.
Now, Liefeld's drawings are probably closer to real life human beings in terms of absolute proportions, measurements, facial construction and detail, while Timm's is obviously more cartoonish and unrealistic, but no one would consider Liefeld's artwork superior to Timm's in execution.
In short, saying that Mantic does on accident what GW does on purpose (and better) is not doing Mantic any favors.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: The type of plastic is also harder than most HIPS, and responds poorly to 'plastic glue' meant for polystyrene kits (but works fine with plastic weld).
Really? I've used the pretty standard, and frequently recommended for all polystyrenes, Tamiya Extra Thin Cement on mine, and haven't had any problems at all.
Well, after some hard introspection I decided to just go for some accessory sprues, the printed mission book and maybe one of the mats for a change of scenery.
Normally I'm a sucker for hardcover rulebooks, but after I got the 'deluxe' hardback from Kickstarter 1 and now finding it to be more or less obsolete after about 1.5 years, I'm not willing to invest much more - I remember reading somewhere that KS1 backers will get a PDF of the new rules, won't they?
I don't really care about the new teams, and most of the somewhat interesting new single models are still in a sketchbook state - which is too much of a risk when Mantic are involved...
So I just got another Darklands starter from the Metal Age KS instead.
MLaw wrote: If Reaper Miniatures are to be believed.. then Mantic is already being dishonest by using Kickstarter to sell existing products (in DZ:I they sold DZ sets and all of KoW was existing minis +new rules..that..are free). So either Reaper miniatures is lying about KS requiring project creators to only offer new items as rewards or Mantic is violating a core rule of kickstarter campaigns. This is definitely a chin-scratcher for me..
Reaper could be taking a literal view of the kickstarter rules, but some very high profile campaigns have included existing products.
What Reaper is really trying to do is protect their distributor and retail network, which is something that Mantic needs to learn to do. By only including new product in the pledge, Reaper can look retailers in the eyes and tell them they aren't cannibalizing business.
If you ask around, Reaper aren't protecting their distributors so much as they are desperately trying to apologise to them - they've been actively sabotaging the supply chain as punishment for Reaper daring to cut them out by shipping KS product straight to backers.
MLaw wrote: If Reaper Miniatures are to be believed.. then Mantic is already being dishonest by using Kickstarter to sell existing products (in DZ:I they sold DZ sets and all of KoW was existing minis +new rules..that..are free). So either Reaper miniatures is lying about KS requiring project creators to only offer new items as rewards or Mantic is violating a core rule of kickstarter campaigns. This is definitely a chin-scratcher for me..
Reaper could be taking a literal view of the kickstarter rules, but some very high profile campaigns have included existing products.
I posted the rules above. Even a literal reading allows existing product to be sold.
. They've never been shy about the fact that they're riding on GWs' coat-tails and using the growing swell of players fleeing that sinking ship to float their own boats. If you think a business who builds their model around that kind of philosophy is at their core, good, honest, and to be trusted, then I have a bridge to sell you. It's right next to this toy shop in the North Pole.. fantastic view.
Right. Because making derivatives of products of complacent industry giants is bad now? Good grief, that's where most innovation comes from.
Sorry if mr Renton apparently wee'ed in your cheerios sometime in the recent past, but let's cut at least the obviously inane arguments, shall we?
So.. here's the thing. I didn't say Mantic was bad. I understand the "defend the brand" type of mentality fans take I do.
The hilarious part is that Ronnie, Alessio, Rick, Jervis, et al, still get together and play games and get drinks at the pub together.
GW may be some big evil corporation but Jervis Johnson plays Black Powder with Rick Priestley and John Stallard while Alessio and Ronnie have a joke about Age of Sigmar
Bolognesus wrote: Both enforcer kits were solid, quality plastic kits as well. So were the plague zombies. Forgefather plastics turned out solid too, from what I gather. They seem to have the plastics worked out pretty well now.
Well, they were good enough. They weren't great. They certainly weren't on par with Renedra, Wargames Factory or Games Workshop. Mostly, this is probably due to Mantic's inexperience on sculpting minis for plastic production, but there were also spots of melty-soft detail, poor fit, and poorly placed connection points/mold split. The type of plastic is also harder than most HIPS, and responds poorly to 'plastic glue' meant for polystyrene kits (but works fine with plastic weld). They certainly weren't $4-per-mini quality plastics. I feel 5 for $10 is about the most I'd spend on the new Mantic plastics per mini.
I dunno dude, I love 'em. the Enforcers and Peacekeepers are my favorite sci fi plastic infantry on the market. And methyl ethyl ketone works just fine on 'em.
But I do agree about $2 per mini, which is what my personal max is for new plastics anyway. $4 is dumb.
I don't really understand what issues people seem to be having with gluing the enforcers either. I've used several 'regular' plastic glues and they work perfectly fine (all the sprued enforcers, of course - the restic requires superglue or plastic-weld).
As for price, yeah, I agree.
Oh, and quoting the troll after a warning so people can't properly respond seems poor form, but whatever.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: The type of plastic is also harder than most HIPS, and responds poorly to 'plastic glue' meant for polystyrene kits (but works fine with plastic weld).
Really? I've used the pretty standard, and frequently recommended for all polystyrenes, Tamiya Extra Thin Cement on mine, and haven't had any problems at all.
I use Humberto poly precision for my HIPS minis and it was not very effective on the Men at Arms or Peacekeepers, but I also didn't spend a whole lot of time trying to make it work. The second time a joint hardened without melding, I just reached for the hard stuff.
NobodyXY wrote: You say they have no artist direction yet the vermin all have a very strong direction. Not everyone likes that direction but it's there.
This is exactly right. Unfortunately, some people believe that everyone is supposed to love that direction just because Mantic is associated. All we can do is vote with our wallets and voice our opinions, and hope that our sentiment isn't drowned out by the cries of the man-babies.
. They've never been shy about the fact that they're riding on GWs' coat-tails and using the growing swell of players fleeing that sinking ship to float their own boats. If you think a business who builds their model around that kind of philosophy is at their core, good, honest, and to be trusted, then I have a bridge to sell you. It's right next to this toy shop in the North Pole.. fantastic view.
Right. Because making derivatives of products of complacent industry giants is bad now? Good grief, that's where most innovation comes from.
Sorry if mr Renton apparently wee'ed in your cheerios sometime in the recent past, but let's cut at least the obviously inane arguments, shall we?
So.. here's the thing. I didn't say Mantic was bad. I understand the "defend the brand" type of mentality fans take I do.
The hilarious part is that Ronnie, Alessio, Rick, Jervis, et al, still get together and play games and get drinks at the pub together.
GW may be some big evil corporation but Jervis Johnson plays Black Powder with Rick Priestley and John Stallard while Alessio and Ronnie have a joke about Age of Sigmar
I follow Andy Chambers and even he still has a pretty "worldly" view of the whole thing. Occasionally, he mentions Gav Thorpe, who from how it seems washed his hands of most of the miniature gaming scene, but it does seem like they stay in touch. Again, my sentiment is that these companies are all just doing what they can and really what they know. Mantic is not better or worse than GW, Warlord, etc. I own product from almost every games company I can think of. I buy the product I like and try not to get hung up too much in idolizing companies who all have their own skeletons, all take whatever shortcuts they need, and all hustle however they can to try to turn a profit.
NobodyXY wrote: You say they have no artist direction yet the vermin all have a very strong direction. Not everyone likes that direction but it's there.
This is exactly right. Unfortunately, some people believe that everyone is supposed to love that direction just because Mantic is associated. All we can do is vote with our wallets and voice our opinions, and hope that our sentiment isn't drowned out by the cries of the man-babies.
Er wut? I'm in favour of the new direction. Thanks for calling me names though. I disagree with you and found your comparison a few pages back just petty and laughable. Not everyone is going to like the same things, shocker I know.
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Know look I get that you don't like mantic. I don't really like GW. The difference? I don't have to announce it in all related threads. GW fans are fine in my book. The Local guys seem really nice even. Just not my game. Not sure why you feel the need to be rude. If you don't like mantic maybe it's time to move on?
The biggest problems I've had with DZ minis has been having release agent on a Marauder troop booster. Washed off well enough. The resitc enforcers are very small pieces and the mold lines can be a pain around the knees and shoulder pads . A quick thin wash is really helpful. The zombies went together fairly well.
I'm in for $1, and I guess I should figure out if I want to spend anymore. I still have a ton of unassembled Deadzone from KS1, and neither the rats or the Pathfinders are really calling my name. The only thing that's really appealing to me is the new terrain (I want to get into Infinity!). Is the $100 terrain only pledge remotely worth it?
I'd also be up for the new rules, but I don't really need them in hardcover - hopefully they'll be available cheaper at retail.
Perhaps we mean different things. I see the new Veermyn have a coherent look, and that's great, but the marauders don't. The various human factions don't have the same proportions or style. There are many sculpts that could have used a second draft with some specific feedback.
It feels to me like Mantic uses a lot of freelancers who may be responsible for the look of one or two particular ranges, which sometimes works out pretty well, but there is no one overriding voice that is responsible for making sure all the ranges mesh well and make sense together. For example, the zombie corp marines do not scale with the living corp marines. Then there are the sculpts that are just plain bad (or marmite since there always seem to be some people who will buy anything). The dog drone was changed (arguably for the better, even) because the backers made a lot of noise, yet the Enforcer Scouts still look the same, because apparently ensuring you have a great sculpt instead of a not-too-bad sculpt before you spend tens of thousands on tooling is outside of Mantic's art director's purview. Or there is no art director.
I got a lot of flack for saying similar things about Medge's Epirian Contractors, but for Mantic it's an even bigger issue. Mantic is not a small group of guys making their first minis anymore. They keep making rookie mistakes or communicating worse than a Polish company trying to sidestep copyright laws. They keep screwing up the small things and almost screwing up the big things. When GW hands them a golden opportunity, they hand it right back, saying, "no, thanks." I love Mantic, I want to see them succeed, but I would do them no favors by letting them get away with such incompetence without calling them on it.
I dunno dude, I love 'em. the Enforcers and Peacekeepers are my favorite sci fi plastic infantry on the market. And methyl ethyl ketone works just fine on 'em.
But I do agree about $2 per mini, which is what my personal max is for new plastics anyway. $4 is dumb.
I'm not sure how I would rank them. I love the design of the Enforcers, especially the Peacekeepers, but the execution reduced my joy. Same thing with Sedition Wars' Samaritans. DFG's Valkir were more complicated minis, and a real pleasure to assemble, but their designs are limited to not-GW and not-Star Wars, at least for now. GW's minis are brilliant, but too expensive to love. If DG were still making UAMC, I'd probably be buying them along with WGF WW2 plastics to make all kinds of conversions.
Reapers' Bones Bathalians and Kulathi minis are my favorite alien minis on the market right now, and no one but DFG seems interested in making any viable competition for them. If Alien Host or Sentinel Games got into gear, we'd probably get to see Mantic and other established companies forced to up their game for alien minis. Of all the Warpath alien races to get the HIPS treatment, I have no idea why Mantic went with Veermyn first. (Well, third if you count the Forgefathers and orx, which were more like half-sci fi minis, and definitely part of an older paradigm about what sci fi minis gamers want.)
Is ethyl ketone what is in Humbrol Poly? I guess I must be using the wrong stuff, because it works fine for GW, WGF and Renedra, but doesn't work on the newer Mantic plastics for me. Not without really dousing the joins with enough glue to melt their little faces off. As someone who is chemically sensitive, I try not to use the modelling glues from my childhood. I had a lot of fun back then, but those fumes were something else. It probably didn't help that we did all the modelling in the dining room.
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NTRabbit wrote: The Deadzone Marauders do have a consistent look though, so I'm not really following you.
Also I think the old DOG drone is miles better than the new one they sculpted up.
1. The HIPS marauders and Dreadball marauders don't match them, though.
2. That's why I said arguably. I also liked the earlier version more.
In what way don't the Dreadball Marauders match them? I have them side by side on the shelf at the moment, and the Orcs and Goblins look exactly the same, just one lot are in military uniform, and the other are in sports uniform.
The old hard plastic ones sure, but those were made to be not-Boyz, they're the old direction that need fluff fiddling to fit into the new one, same as the old Stormrage and Steel Warriors.
I thought their faces were different. I have the dreadball orx, and their faces look more blunt and hulkish, whereas the DZ orx look like they have more apish, plastic orxy faces.
I dunno dude, I love 'em. the Enforcers and Peacekeepers are my favorite sci fi plastic infantry on the market. And methyl ethyl ketone works just fine on 'em.
But I do agree about $2 per mini, which is what my personal max is for new plastics anyway. $4 is dumb.
I'm not sure how I would rank them. I love the design of the Enforcers, especially the Peacekeepers, but the execution reduced my joy. Same thing with Sedition Wars' Samaritans. DFG's Valkir were more complicated minis, and a real pleasure to assemble, but their designs are limited to not-GW and not-Star Wars, at least for now. GW's minis are brilliant, but too expensive to love. If DG were still making UAMC, I'd probably be buying them along with WGF WW2 plastics to make all kinds of conversions.
I honestly can't think of better plastic sci fi dudes. Well, I love the SST Mobile Infantry designs, but they were a pain to put together. the plastic Skinnies were great, too. Defiance were good despite limitations... but in terms of still commercially available, I think Mantic's are just the best plastic sci fi generic infantry hard/power armor dudes. There's no GW sci fi dude that I like anymore. Maybe if they made reasonably priced Elysian plastics or something.
Is ethyl ketone what is in Humbrol Poly? I guess I must be using the wrong stuff, because it works fine for GW, WGF and Renedra, but doesn't work on the newer Mantic plastics for me. Not without really dousing the joins with enough glue to melt their little faces off. As someone who is chemically sensitive, I try not to use the modelling glues from my childhood. I had a lot of fun back then, but those fumes were something else. It probably didn't help that we did all the modelling in the dining room.
MEK is usually the thinner stuff that you brush on and it melts plastics together. Been using it for years. Tamiya, Testors, Plastruct, etc, all have vaguely different formulations.
Plastruct is what I consider to be the hard stuff. The fumes keep me from using it for any minis I don't need it for.
I'm not saying the Enforcers are bad or shouldn't be your favorite. I just see room for improvement, especially with the legs and hips, the limited number of fully helmeted heads, the CC hands, the sprue labelling, and some of the detail areas (less a problem on the Peacekeeper sprues, IMO). The Forgeguard seem to suffer more from some of these weaknesses, yet I still like the models.
All in all, I am happy with my KS purchases, but I would have been unhappy if I had paid MSRP, or even 20% off. I bought more HIPS from DZ2, because the prices were right. For a dollar per mini, I'm much more forgiving.
I'm in the camp of loving the Enforcers designs (most of them). The Pathfinders have some issues and Peacekeepers have tiny foot syndrome IMO, but on the whole, they are one of my favorite mass produced sci-fi models.
The Marauders.. are the complete opposite end of the spectrum from me. I have come to despise a lot of the GW aesthetic of late, save for their orks.. who I do enjoy greatly. Because of that, and how close Mantic's Marauders are to them, I can't help but draw comparisons and that forces it to boil down to personal opinion/taste.. and for me that does not go towards the Marauders. I do like that they are not hodge-podge like the GW stuff though, so I like their gear better than the GW Orks if that makes sense. Maybe I guess if you painted up Marauders to look like the aliens from Fifth Element (Mangalore)http://aliens.wikia.com/wiki/Mangalore and I like to pretend the Mawbeasts never happened.
I really like the designs of some of the sci-fi creatures that appear in the rebel faction in in various places in Dreadball. I think in that regard, Mantic has done a lot for sci-fi gaming that other companies have been reluctant to do. Some of it is a bit over the top but I think it's really the exception and not the rule where Dreadball is concerned.
The Corporation models are IMO where it starts to fall apart. I haven't been keeping up with concept art or rumors around this but I really hope the Rangers and other models from that line get an overhaul. They are not indicative of what you see from Enforcers or Forgefathers.
The sprue of Forgefathers I got with my DZ stuff completely won me over towards them. I am not normally a fan of squats, Grymm, or whatever name you give space dwarves, but their design and execution for the hard plastics was a homerun IMO. I haven't had time to assemble them yet but the sprues look amazing. After I get moved in to my new place they're high on the list.. and the concept art is looking promising. My DZ:Infestation order actually consisted of most of what I would presume I would need for a Forgefather army.
The zombies that most people are in love with are decent in my book. I think.. again.. they have tiny feet and some things about how they are clothed and the way they are meant to be assembled aren't really where I would've gone but that's a personal taste thing. For what they are and the prices we're able to get them at, they are a really good buy and a much needed change of pace for anyone trying to do sci-fi zombies. I like Sedition Wars for it's zombies too but I think the Mantic zombies do offer a more traditional zombie without all the techno-organic stuff.
As to loving this company, hating that company etc. For me personally, investing emotions in a company is a one-way street that goes nowhere. I keep trying to say I don't love or hate any individual company which... I think some people are not understanding. I like some products of a company, I like some game systems. I don't judge or condemn an entire company based on one thing or another. I don't even judge the company.. I just buy their stuff if I like it and if I don't I won't. Me talking about companies being honest or not has more to do with me explaining WHY I don't invest emotions into companies.. it has nothing to do with any specific company. If you don't agree with it, that's your choice and you can believe whatever you like. For me, the emotionally healthy thing to do has been to stay detached from the companies and enjoy the stuff I like. Seems pretty simple to me.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Re: Art direction
Perhaps we mean different things. I see the new Veermyn have a coherent look, and that's great, but the marauders don't.
The Marauders are getting reworked again I think? In any case the DZ stuff does have a coherent look.
Then there are the sculpts that are just plain bad (or marmite since there always seem to be some people who will buy anything). The dog drone was changed (arguably for the better, even) because the backers made a lot of noise, yet the Enforcer Scouts still look the same, because apparently ensuring you have a great sculpt instead of a not-too-bad sculpt before you spend tens of thousands on tooling is outside of Mantic's art director's purview. Or there is no art director.
You say they have no art direction yet, everything render from the DZI KS says different. The Enforcers art theme is well set. the Dorfs are getting troops to better match the current FF stuff. The veermyn stuff aside from the Nightmares and old Nightspawn all follow the same direction. Then there's the Demons for KOW and the Nature stuff looks right on point as well. You mention terrible sculpts and assuming you're not just disagreeing with the design choices I'd like to see these universally hated mantic models. Goblins? That seems up for debate. Elves? Comes down to style choices. maybe KOM stuff but I haven't looked too closely at those. The enforcers themselves seem like they had to be scaled down slightly to fit the target scale, But I agree that they don't fit in with the other humans well at all at the moment.
ME guardsmen were the same size as the heavily armed not aliens right? I could see that being a harder sell as they seemed to have plastics already done up.
I got a lot of flack for saying similar things about Medge's Epirian Contractors, but for Mantic it's an even bigger issue.
ME guardsmen were the same size as the heavily armed not aliens right? I could see that being a harder sell as they seemed to have plastics already done up
Mantic is not a small group of guys making their first minis anymore. They keep making rookie mistakes or communicating worse than a Polish company trying to sidestep copyright laws. They keep screwing up the small things and almost screwing up the big things. When GW hands them a golden opportunity, they hand it right back, saying, "no, thanks." I love Mantic, I want to see them succeed, but I would do them no favors by letting them get away with such incompetence without calling them on it.
They do seem to be in a bit of a rush, but you're overstating their problems. They didn't say no thanks to GW. They said hey guys retailers won't stock something you can get for free! Shocking. They have weaknesses like any business does. We knew months in advance that Veermyn were up next. Mantic heard folks on WP and are addressing that as well. Hate restic? Boom gone. ( I didn't like this personally but understand it.). Mantic addresses their failings. They've made strides in sorting out KS issues as well. Smaller campaign + The Pledge manager isn't perfect but seems to work well in all but a few edge cases. Do they have problems? yes. Are some of their ranges in a transitional period? also yes.
The weekly update if it takes would address communication as well.
At the end of the day, Mantic is in the business of creating models (and games I guess) to make money. They've never been shy about the fact that they're riding on GWs' coat-tails and using the growing swell of players fleeing that sinking ship to float their own boats. If you think a business who builds their model around that kind of philosophy is at their core, good, honest, and to be trusted, then I have a bridge to sell you. It's right next to this toy shop in the North Pole.. fantastic view.
Would you also say the same about Vic Minis, Raging Heroes, Scibor, Maxmini, Kromlech, Puppetswar, Mad Robot, Anvil Industries, Shieldwolf, Avatars or War, (and many more). They're all primarily in the business of selling not-GW models, which is to say riding GW's coat-tails. Are they all bad, dishonest and not to be trusted?
What about PlayStation and XBox? They were both built on being alternatives to the Nintendo and Sega-dominated console space. We could spend all day coming up with more, of course.
Because I'm not sure how you think openly providing an alternative to a very popular thing is inherently dishonest or untrustworthy.
MLaw wrote: If Reaper Miniatures are to be believed.. then Mantic is already being dishonest by using Kickstarter to sell existing products (in DZ:I they sold DZ sets and all of KoW was existing minis +new rules..that..are free). So either Reaper miniatures is lying about KS requiring project creators to only offer new items as rewards or Mantic is violating a core rule of kickstarter campaigns. This is definitely a chin-scratcher for me..
Or Reaper is just wrong.
Can I offer rewards that aren't produced by me or my project?
All rewards should be produced directly by you or your project. If your project is a collaborative effort, offering rewards produced by your collaborators is fine too!
Rewards not produced by the creator - We prohibit rewards not designed or produced by the creator. If your project is a collaborative effort, offering rewards produced by your collaborators is fine. We also allow creators to offer branded swag as rewards, though we don't recommend it. They tend to be much less compelling than unique rewards that speak to the spirit of your project. Additionally, offering experiential rewards (a trip somewhere with the band, a prop from the film, the guitarist's signed guitar), is within our rules.
As long as Mantic is only selling stuff they make, the rules seem to allow offering existing items.
Nah. Kickstarter just selectively enforces their own "rules". It's to stop you or me offering GW Dreadnoughts or unboxed Sigmarines or Cans of Coke or whatever as backer rewards. KS are quite happy for Mantic, who are a big, repeat "customer" who makes them quite a lot of money to offer 4-Ground scenery and SWM Tablescapes and their own existing products as optional add-ons
They also haven't learned that a suit of armour needs to fit around the wearer. A helmet needs to be bigger than your head so that you can wear it, while the placement of joints in a segmented exoskeleton must align with those of the wearer so that the wearer's body and the armour can move together.
To be fair, proportion and being able to move inside your armour is a far older and wider issue in this industry, and not one that anyone seems keen on sorting out. It's unfair to single out Mantic on this. And I've agreed with you and pointed out their pinheads before.
MLaw wrote: If Reaper Miniatures are to be believed.. then Mantic is already being dishonest by using Kickstarter to sell existing products (in DZ:I they sold DZ sets and all of KoW was existing minis +new rules..that..are free). So either Reaper miniatures is lying about KS requiring project creators to only offer new items as rewards or Mantic is violating a core rule of kickstarter campaigns. This is definitely a chin-scratcher for me..
Or Reaper is just wrong.
Can I offer rewards that aren't produced by me or my project?
All rewards should be produced directly by you or your project. If your project is a collaborative effort, offering rewards produced by your collaborators is fine too!
Rewards not produced by the creator - We prohibit rewards not designed or produced by the creator. If your project is a collaborative effort, offering rewards produced by your collaborators is fine. We also allow creators to offer branded swag as rewards, though we don't recommend it. They tend to be much less compelling than unique rewards that speak to the spirit of your project. Additionally, offering experiential rewards (a trip somewhere with the band, a prop from the film, the guitarist's signed guitar), is within our rules.
As long as Mantic is only selling stuff they make, the rules seem to allow offering existing items.
Nah. Kickstarter just selectively enforces their own "rules". It's to stop you or me offering GW Dreadnoughts or unboxed Sigmarines or Cans of Coke or whatever as backer rewards. KS are quite happy for Mantic, who are a big, repeat "customer" who makes them quite a lot of money to offer 4-Ground scenery and SWM Tablescapes and their own existing products as optional add-ons
Pretty simple, neither you nor I produced GW Dreadnoughts or Sigmarines or Coke. And neither you nor I are partnered with the companies which do produce them The other stuff from other companies tends to be produced for the project or in collaboration with Mantic for the project.
MLaw wrote: If Reaper Miniatures are to be believed.. then Mantic is already being dishonest by using Kickstarter to sell existing products (in DZ:I they sold DZ sets and all of KoW was existing minis +new rules..that..are free). So either Reaper miniatures is lying about KS requiring project creators to only offer new items as rewards or Mantic is violating a core rule of kickstarter campaigns. This is definitely a chin-scratcher for me..
Or Reaper is just wrong.
Can I offer rewards that aren't produced by me or my project?
All rewards should be produced directly by you or your project. If your project is a collaborative effort, offering rewards produced by your collaborators is fine too!
Rewards not produced by the creator - We prohibit rewards not designed or produced by the creator. If your project is a collaborative effort, offering rewards produced by your collaborators is fine. We also allow creators to offer branded swag as rewards, though we don't recommend it. They tend to be much less compelling than unique rewards that speak to the spirit of your project. Additionally, offering experiential rewards (a trip somewhere with the band, a prop from the film, the guitarist's signed guitar), is within our rules.
As long as Mantic is only selling stuff they make, the rules seem to allow offering existing items.
Nah. Kickstarter just selectively enforces their own "rules". It's to stop you or me offering GW Dreadnoughts or unboxed Sigmarines or Cans of Coke or whatever as backer rewards. KS are quite happy for Mantic, who are a big, repeat "customer" who makes them quite a lot of money to offer 4-Ground scenery and SWM Tablescapes and their own existing products as optional add-ons
Pretty simple, neither you nor I produced GW Dreadnoughts or Sigmarines or Coke. And neither you nor I are partnered with the companies which do produce them The other stuff from other companies tends to be produced for the project or in collaboration with Mantic for the project.
Okay, I'll play.
And you're wrong. So very wrong.
Produced for KoW? Produced in collaboration with Mantic (for this or any Mantic project)? Nope. Nope. These aren't the "DeadZone boards" - which would fit your criteria. It's a case of "We've partnered with our friends to offer their existing product as part of out kickstarter". Which is fine, but not what you're trying to justify via KS T&C. We all know KS selectively follow/enforce their own "rules" so I'm not sure why you're even bothering trying to prove otherwise.
@AzazelX - (you typed a lot to other people and I don't feel like trying to trim all of that out) I don't trust any company. Why should I or anyone? Outside of providing things for us to buy, what role are companies supposed to play in our lives? Being trustworthy has nothing to do with their ability to produce things I want to buy. I would say EXACTLY the same thing about all of those companies you listed. Would I still buy from them, and Mantic.. yup. My point is more about the amount of emotional investment people are placing in companies rather than the products created by them. I love the way the Dodge Challengers look. Do I trust Dodge as a company? It's weird to me how dearly a lot of people hold companies. This isn't directed at fans of Mantic specifically, just a general observation about the whole ideology of this type of thing. I feel the same way towards people who are in this camp towards GW, Marvel vs DC, Pepsi vs Coke, Miller vs Coors or whatever.. People treat companies and businesses like they are family members but I don't know the last time any of these businesses did anything outside of offering their product for us to purchase.
A further and slightly separate thought. It's funny to me, that people would attack one another over any of this, physically or verbally, or any other form. This is meant to be a community and a place for meaningful conversation. However, when people who are emotionally invested in any topic become involved, they tend to shout loudly at anyone with differing views as to avoid hearing anything that isn't praise towards their beloved company. Again.. this isn't specific to Mantic.. I see this with GW, Reaper, DnD vs Pathfinder, Xbox vs Playstation, Ford vs Chevy, etc etc. When someone posts this long winded response just to say they don't agree with something, is anyone at all shocked? Is any meaningful discussion even possible when everyone is treated as adversarial? Come on guys.. we're better as a species and society than this.
Mantic has products that I like. That is a fact about my opinion. Mantic has products and practices that I don't like. Also a fact about my opinion. Arguing about anyone's opinion really doesn't do a whole lot. Constructively pointing out some things a person might have missed, sure.. that could be helpful. Telling a person they're just wrong or calling them a troll, or flame-baiting and sicking the mods on them? None of that accomplishes anything good. Mantic is the only one that can completely turn around their view. In the meantime, people seeking to act as emissaries for them should consider the public face they're putting forward.
MLaw, it's like the modern version of a Demon Haunted World. I want to believe that corporations are not soulless, meaningless, cold edifices of pure greed built by exploitation. No, some of them are magical gestalts of good ideas, pure intentions and rainbow puppy fairies.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Re: Art direction
Perhaps we mean different things. I see the new Veermyn have a coherent look, and that's great, but the marauders don't.
The Marauders are getting reworked again I think? In any case the DZ stuff does have a coherent look.
Then there are the sculpts that are just plain bad (or marmite since there always seem to be some people who will buy anything). The dog drone was changed (arguably for the better, even) because the backers made a lot of noise, yet the Enforcer Scouts still look the same, because apparently ensuring you have a great sculpt instead of a not-too-bad sculpt before you spend tens of thousands on tooling is outside of Mantic's art director's purview. Or there is no art director.
You say they have no art direction yet, everything render from the DZI KS says different. The Enforcers art theme is well set. the Dorfs are getting troops to better match the current FF stuff. The veermyn stuff aside from the Nightmares and old Nightspawn all follow the same direction. Then there's the Demons for KOW and the Nature stuff looks right on point as well. You mention terrible sculpts and assuming you're not just disagreeing with the design choices I'd like to see these universally hated mantic models. Goblins? That seems up for debate. Elves? Comes down to style choices. maybe KOM stuff but I haven't looked too closely at those. The enforcers themselves seem like they had to be scaled down slightly to fit the target scale, But I agree that they don't fit in with the other humans well at all at the moment.
I'm glad to hear the marauders are getting reworked again. I remember the initial backer reaction during the first Deadzone kickstarter. Still, my point was that Mantic is clearly struggling to find a coherent design philosophy, something they should have done before sinking hundreds of thousands on tooling molds, making packaging, etc..
The renders from DZI do not show one cohesive art direction (although they are a vast improvement over KoW, KoW2, and so on). They show that the Enforcers were mostly designed by one guy, possibly all sculpted digitally by the same guy, and that he had his own aesthetic. The Veermyn have a noticeably different aesthetic, even if they are consistent with each other. The characters seem to be somewhat variable. The forgefather reboot is a positive step, but it wouldn't have been necessary if someone had just said "That won't work" in the first place.
My main complaint should probably be the lack of an axe man. I think that falls under the art director's job, so I call him an art director. But there should be someone who tells artists, sculptors, and machinists when their work isn't up to snuff. The new Greater Obsidian Golem, for example, is widely (although not universally, to my surprise) recognized as a subpar model, especially for $40. The Enforcer Pathfinders have noticeable problems with their torsos that have been commented on, and usually dismissed as not being a dealbreaker. And then there's their little dog, too. I'm not talking about Mantic scrapping whole designs or changing their entire aesthetic (well, maybe for the Golem), but simply tightening up the sculpts, giving things another pass, fixing a few minor flaws that should be much faster and cheaper to fix in CAD now than by issuing another "Forgefather re-do".
If you want a list of Mantic's unpopular minis, I can get you started with this very much not comprehensive list: Men at Arms, GOG, Drakon Riders, Twilight Kin Assassin, Werewolves, pee-pee-dance Ogres, Trolls, Chainsaw Maw Beast, Orx hero, any restic mini that was pulled from the mold early and twisted off its sprue, plague stage 3, Sistrhood sisters, Sisterhood cathorses, original Veermyn, and putting the mooning grot on most common orc sprue instead of a useful grot. Some were early mistakes, but at this point I consider it a chronic failure on Mantic's part that they keep releasing obvious duds that someone should have rejected.
ME guardsmen were the same size as the heavily armed not aliens right? I could see that being a harder sell as they seemed to have plastics already done up.
I got a lot of flack for saying similar things about Medge's Epirian Contractors, but for Mantic it's an even bigger issue.
ME guardsmen were the same size as the heavily armed not aliens right? I could see that being a harder sell as they seemed to have plastics already done up
Mantic is not a small group of guys making their first minis anymore. They keep making rookie mistakes or communicating worse than a Polish company trying to sidestep copyright laws. They keep screwing up the small things and almost screwing up the big things. When GW hands them a golden opportunity, they hand it right back, saying, "no, thanks." I love Mantic, I want to see them succeed, but I would do them no favors by letting them get away with such incompetence without calling them on it.
They do seem to be in a bit of a rush, but you're overstating their problems. They didn't say no thanks to GW. They said hey guys retailers won't stock something you can get for free! Shocking. They have weaknesses like any business does. We knew months in advance that Veermyn were up next. Mantic heard folks on WP and are addressing that as well. Hate restic? Boom gone. ( I didn't like this personally but understand it.). Mantic addresses their failings. They've made strides in sorting out KS issues as well. Smaller campaign + The Pledge manager isn't perfect but seems to work well in all but a few edge cases. Do they have problems? yes. Are some of their ranges in a transitional period? also yes.
The weekly update if it takes would address communication as well.
TL;DR
I disagree.
If I am overstating their problems, it is because they keep having the same problems and refuse to fix them. It makes me a lot less generous towards the company and any of their new releases.
They refused the golden opportunity by miscommunicating with backers. It is understandable that they wouldn't want to give everything away that they want retailers to sell, however, their fans and even their rules committee had the impression and shared it for weeks that the rules would be full and complete enough for WHFB users to use them. Mantic screwed up in how they handled the situation, as well as all the other broken promises they've made recently.
The steps you mention would go a long way towards making me happier with them. I really hope DZ 2 is the kickstarter where everything goes right for them (and for me as a backer). However, I've heard a lot of promises since KoW1, and while Mantic is making progress, it seems painfully slow for a company with regular high-funding kickstarters. Every time it seems like they have something sorted, they find some other way to "almost". They seem like a company full of good people trying to do a good job, so I'm pulling for them. They make a lot of great products and have a sense of fun in their communications. But I'm not pledging more than a dollar until I see some prototypes or convincing renders anymore.
Quality control and communication are probably mantics biggest problem. They totally need people to send stuff back to the factory, sculpts back to the sculptor and art back to the artists.
carlos13th wrote: They totally need people to send stuff back to the factory, sculpts back to the sculptor and art back to the artists.
They do though. They sent the Enforcers and Forge Guard back to the factory, they (wrongly imo) sent the DOG drone back to the sculptor to be redone, and they sent the art for Valendor and Bael back to be redone a couple times, and those are just the ones I can remember.
What you're saying is that you fault them for not sending back to be redone the stuff you didn't personally like, which isn't a legitimate grievance.
carlos13th wrote: They totally need people to send stuff back to the factory, sculpts back to the sculptor and art back to the artists.
They do though. They sent the Enforcers and Forge Guard back to the factory, they (wrongly imo) sent the DOG drone back to the sculptor to be redone, and they sent the art for Valendor and Bael back to be redone a couple times, and those are just the ones I can remember.
What you're saying is that you fault them for not sending back to be redone the stuff you didn't personally like, which isn't a legitimate grievance.
Giving him the benefit of the doubt, I think he means they should have started doing it sooner. When they were smaller, they didn't want to step on toes or offend. Now they're getting bigger and telling people "fix it, or we ain't paying". Basically, Mantic learned from mistakes in the past and has worked to correct them. Have they found new mistakes? Sure.*
*regardless of what SOME individuals think, smaller legs and bigger upper bodies are not mistakes. They're the art direction Mantic chose to go with. Whining will not change that. Don't like it, don't buy it. Got it? Great. After all, that's just common sense-if you hate something, you don't buy it (unless it's required to live). If you buy an unnecessary item you hate (for yourself), you're an idiot.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: My main complaint should probably be the lack of an axe man.
If you want a list of Mantic's unpopular minis, I can get you started with this very much not comprehensive list: Men at Arms, GOG, Drakon Riders, Twilight Kin Assassin, Werewolves, pee-pee-dance Ogres, Trolls, Chainsaw Maw Beast, Orx hero, any restic mini that was pulled from the mold early and twisted off its sprue, plague stage 3, Sistrhood sisters, Sisterhood cathorses, original Veermyn, and putting the mooning grot on most common orc sprue instead of a useful grot. Some were early mistakes, but at this point I consider it a chronic failure on Mantic's part that they keep releasing obvious duds that someone should have rejected.
Those are all 2013 though, so that's a good sign.
Axe man = Professional Naysayer, btw. A lot of people need them. George Lucas did, Spielberg does, etc. People whose sole purpose in life is to point out that what they're doing is totally dumb.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: My main complaint should probably be the lack of an axe man.
If you want a list of Mantic's unpopular minis, I can get you started with this very much not comprehensive list: Men at Arms, GOG, Drakon Riders, Twilight Kin Assassin, Werewolves, pee-pee-dance Ogres, Trolls, Chainsaw Maw Beast, Orx hero, any restic mini that was pulled from the mold early and twisted off its sprue, plague stage 3, Sistrhood sisters, Sisterhood cathorses, original Veermyn, and putting the mooning grot on most common orc sprue instead of a useful grot. Some were early mistakes, but at this point I consider it a chronic failure on Mantic's part that they keep releasing obvious duds that someone should have rejected.
Those are all 2013 though, so that's a good sign.
Axe man = Professional Naysayer, btw. A lot of people need them. George Lucas did, Spielberg does, etc. People whose sole purpose in life is to point out that what they're doing is totally dumb.
It is a good sign. Most of their DZ2 and KOW2 stuff looks good to great in renders. I would have bought a lot of Naiads, Succubi, Salamanders and Abyssals in plastic if the pledge manager had reopened. I'll be getting some of each of the DZ2 plastics, even the Veermyn, to see what I think of them in person. When my DS stuff comes in, I'll see how they handled the board game plastic. If they can keep it at MA Tiger Corps level, then I would love to see them move entirely into HIPS and board game plastic for everything.
@Timetowaste - Complaining about something we don't like could be seen as whining. Or.. It could be seen as providing feedback. Was everyone whining when they read the released alpha rules and got Mantic to backpedal?
I think they're still going to stick with metal for small run stuff, and resin for small run stuff that's way too big to be made in metal.
I hope they don't abandon restic entirely, because while it's pretty naff for my smaller Rebs and Asterians, it's perfect for Ogres, Marauder Orks and larger. The formula they used on my DBX stuff is pretty good imo.
MLaw wrote: @Timetowaste - Complaining about something we don't like could be seen as whining. Or.. It could be seen as providing feedback. Was everyone whining when they read the released alpha rules and got Mantic to backpedal?
"These rules are broken when this unit can do this, these guys are missing an option that those guys have, and the magic list has been neutered horribly from last edition." All complaints that have a valid point and reflect on mistaken rules (honestly, these are generic 'gripes' I just typed up, I don't actually remember the issues with Alpha)
"I don't like models that have larger upper torsos and smaller legs. You guys seriously messed these models up. Even though multiple other companies do it and there's clearly a market for it! You guys shouldn't do it because I don't like it!" Not a worthwhile complaint. It comes down to subjective vs objective. Even if there are hundreds of people voicing the same concerns, if there is already a market for such an item, it won't please everyone. It just has to please a majority.
Badly written rules that are easily broken or messed up by players are objectively bad. Model appearances are entirely subjective, and there is a clear audience for the body style they went with, as can be seen in comics dating back to the 80s, Privateer Press and other model companies. Blaming them and criticizing them for a subjective opinion against what they and multiple others have decided is their art medium is foolish and childish.
I bought, and regret, Basilean sisters. I think they're bad. But others are scooping them up and using them. Mine haven't left the box. My subjective opinion is that they suck. Others have the subjective opinion that they're great, good, or okay for their purposes. Do I wish they were better? Hell yes. But if Mantic is selling them in decent quantities and people are buying them...well, my opinion is my opinion. I can bitch about a line I dislike or I can focus on things I do like.
Right.. but if popular opinion is that this looks silly or that looks silly it might give Mantic something to go off of if they're trying to understand why sales of a particular set are low or similar. Again.. there are a lot of their sets that I own and like a lot. I'm not here to bash them or troll as people keep trying to say. I'm sharing my opinion just like anyone. For instance.. I can't stand the KoW dwarves. Their heads look weird, their feet.. just their proportions in general are wonky to me. I have seen other people post similar. That doesn't mean people can't like that look... I like a lot of models others think are ugly (I like Mantics Trolls a lot but I know that's not popular opinion) but when you see Mantic release Forgefathers who have more traditional proportions, it tells me that maybe they heard that feedback and adjusted their approach a little. I don't want to get long-winded again so I'll just ask one more question. How is Mantic, a company who I've heard is good at listening to their customers, supposed to be able to listen to us if we don't offer them feedback?
The renders from DZI do not show one cohesive art direction (although they are a vast improvement over KoW, KoW2, and so on). They show that the Enforcers were mostly designed by one guy, possibly all sculpted digitally by the same guy, and that he had his own aesthetic. The Veermyn have a noticeably different aesthetic, even if they are consistent with each other. The characters seem to be somewhat variable. The forgefather reboot is a positive step, but it wouldn't have been necessary if someone had just said "That won't work" in the first place.
I'm not... what? Shouldn't each race follow it's own aesthetic? Super Mutant rats and Enforcers can't exist together? Did WP1 go to KS? Did they have the funds to design it from the ground up? I assumed the hybrid kits were a necessity at the time. The old FF may not be to your liking and are a bit limited but they weren't "shut it down" bad.
My main complaint should probably be the lack of an axe man. I think that falls under the art director's job, so I call him an art director. But there should be someone who tells artists, sculptors, and machinists when their work isn't up to snuff. The new Greater Obsidian Golem, for example, is widely (although not universally, to my surprise) recognized as a subpar model, especially for $40. The Enforcer Pathfinders have noticeable problems with their torsos that have been commented on, and usually dismissed as not being a dealbreaker. And then there's their little dog, too. I'm not talking about Mantic scrapping whole designs or changing their entire aesthetic (well, maybe for the Golem), but simply tightening up the sculpts, giving things another pass, fixing a few minor flaws that should be much faster and cheaper to fix in CAD now than by issuing another "Forgefather re-do".
I agree that assuming they can hire, a what like 50-70kk/yr director they should. I just don't think they can. I have no idea if the cost is proportional, are there similar sized resin beasts to compare too? I don't actually play fantasy, but haven't heard universally bad things about it. I've heard some early criticism. I thought that model isn't out yet. In my opinion I disagree with it's aesthetic. I like to point out that the Golem came out pretty close to the concept art though. The enforcer female torso is the only problem I've seen so far, but if The sprue is set up the same as Zombies (Moar Torsos!) It can be avoided. I'm not sure having it on the sprue is worth it to be honest, but Mantic does need more female minis in their Sci-fi. Also no boob windows/bikini armour puts it miles ahead of a lot of companies mini's in my opinion.
If you want a list of Mantic's unpopular minis, I can get you started with this very much not comprehensive list: Men at Arms, GOG, Drakon Riders, Twilight Kin Assassin, Werewolves, pee-pee-dance Ogres, Trolls, Chainsaw Maw Beast, Orx hero, any restic mini that was pulled from the mold early and twisted off its sprue, plague stage 3, Sistrhood sisters, Sisterhood cathorses, original Veermyn, and putting the mooning grot on most common orc sprue instead of a useful grot. Some were early mistakes, but at this point I consider it a chronic failure on Mantic's part that they keep releasing obvious duds that someone should have rejected.
I don't like Men at arms faces but they at least look like a person proportionally speaking. I had a look but can't for the life of me figure out what GOG is. I couldn't find Drakon riders in the store but found three pictures on google. So i guess mantic agrees? Or is this unit getting a re-sculpt/being replaced? The assassin is pretty bad I agree. Werewolves are less hairy than I'd like but don't seem like bad sculpts. I assume this is about the ogres not splaying their legs like the hero one right? I'd still prefer them over the GW. There maybe one set of legs that have very slightly inward pointing knees for the warriors. The trolls I don't like personally but they don't seem bad just a weird humanoid. Little too gorilla for my tastes. Orx hero I assume KOW? The Hero isn't the most eye catching and the neck from the studio photo angle looks under sculpted.. That banner bearer is beautiful in my opinion though. Chainsaw mawbeasts... What a horrible existence. I agree that the Chainsaw was too much but I willing to ignore that because the mawbeast themselves are pretty neat in my opinion. The Cats aren't a great sculpt I agree here. The riders are fine. The only thing I don't like about the sisters is their knee pads. Veermyn I like obviously but the sculpts were limited but really, really cool in my opinion. I don't have an opinion on the grots except why don't scifi get any!? All in all that was fun! Some sculpts weren't great but a lot were good to great in my opinion. Thanks!
If I am overstating their problems, it is because they keep having the same problems and refuse to fix them. It makes me a lot less generous towards the company and any of their new releases.
They fixed a lot of their problems, but I can agree that their not perfect and have some areas where improvement would make for a happier community. better communication essentially.
They refused the golden opportunity by miscommunicating with backers. It is understandable that they wouldn't want to give everything away that they want retailers to sell, however, their fans and even their rules committee had the impression and shared it for weeks that the rules would be full and complete enough for WHFB users to use them. Mantic screwed up in how they handled the situation, as well as all the other broken promises they've made recently.
The only two 'broken' promises that I remember in the short term is that and the bard fig. both were answered quickly by mantic. Someone more knowledgeable mentioned that the free KOW1 rules were a tapered release. Any reason why that won't happen again? I'd much rather retailers feel better about investing in mantic products than 100% free rules before they even hit retail. I agree in regards to lack of communication. But even in this they did better Ronnie cleared up misconceptions the next day on a saturday right? I mean thats better turn around isn't it?
The steps you mention would go a long way towards making me happier with them. I really hope DZ 2 is the kickstarter where everything goes right for them (and for me as a backer). However, I've heard a lot of promises since KoW1, and while Mantic is making progress, it seems painfully slow for a company with regular high-funding kickstarters. Every time it seems like they have something sorted, they find some other way to "almost". They seem like a company full of good people trying to do a good job, so I'm pulling for them. They make a lot of great products and have a sense of fun in their communications. But I'm not pledging more than a dollar until I see some prototypes or convincing renders anymore.
The steps I've mentioned are all recent actions so not sure what you mean there. I'm not sure of the size at mantic. like 6 or 7 employees? For me that makes producing and supporting 4 games punching well above their weight. Didn't you already go in on this KS? Why would you, considering we haven't seen prototypes yet? I'm not taking shots at you just wondering what made you go in then? Dorfs right? To bad they don't menace with spikes.
carlos13th wrote: They totally need people to send stuff back to the factory, sculpts back to the sculptor and art back to the artists.
They do though. They sent the Enforcers and Forge Guard back to the factory, they (wrongly imo) sent the DOG drone back to the sculptor to be redone, and they sent the art for Valendor and Bael back to be redone a couple times, and those are just the ones I can remember.
What you're saying is that you fault them for not sending back to be redone the stuff you didn't personally like, which isn't a legitimate grievance.
Giving him the benefit of the doubt, I think he means they should have started doing it sooner. When they were smaller, they didn't want to step on toes or offend. Now they're getting bigger and telling people "fix it, or we ain't paying". Basically, Mantic learned from mistakes in the past and has worked to correct them. Have they found new mistakes? Sure.*
*regardless of what SOME individuals think, smaller legs and bigger upper bodies are not mistakes. They're the art direction Mantic chose to go with. Whining will not change that. Don't like it, don't buy it. Got it? Great. After all, that's just common sense-if you hate something, you don't buy it (unless it's required to live). If you buy an unnecessary item you hate (for yourself), you're an idiot.
What you call "whining" is basically what 99% of Dakka (and any forum) consists of. Without it, this would be one empty place.
Want to write for a games company that's not GW.....
The sudden voice of the Brokkr in the silence broke the tension like a bubble bursting, and Skarn turned to see what had distracted him now. Again, he was staring fixated at a small puddle of fluid. Skarn walked over to him, gun still grasped firmly in his hand. As he approached, he saw that it wasn’t water, nor indeed lubricant. It had a deep, dark colour, flashing black under the floodlights of the chamber. It was blood. And in the same instant, he realised that it was not the fluid itself whichwas so captivating Brann, but what was happening to it – small ripples spreading outwards in concentric circles in an irregular rhythm.
Braafi’s shout spun him around in time to see the beast charge out of the darkness. Easily the height of three Dwarfs, it unleashed a roar of primal fury as it came, the sound resonating deep in Skarn’s gut. Behind it, a flood of human sized creatures followed, the scraps of their mining fatigues still clinging to distorted, grotesque frames. So that was what had happened to this damned place.
It's time to bring down Containment Protocol! When we smashed the 2100 backers goal, we promised to create a Deadzone: Infestation short story compilation. We've been itching to get started, so our editor is all lined up and we’ve already got some big-name support from Guy Haley and David Guymer! However, this is just the beginning.
This is your chance to join the ranks of our professional writers and get your name in lights – that’s right, we’re looking for submissions. If you’re a budding author then you’re in with a chance to win $250! We want to use these short stories to develop our universe, our characters, and ultimately, our games. Storytelling has always been at the heart of the hobby – it’s the epic tales of war that make tabletop gaming what it is. It's not just about moving plastic models around a board, but the desperate last-stand of the Pathfinders against the Veermyn tide closing in; the ships helplessly shot from orbit to prevent the rats from spreading; the clashing of different factions as they vie for the power and resources of a dying planet.
We commissioned a set of short stories during the Deadzone and DreadBall Xtreme Kickstarters now available on Mantic Digital, and the talent we’ve seen is unbelievable – you can relive the desperate gunfights, political intrigue and fantastical technology of our sci-fi universe. With every story I came away with thoughts of modelling projects, of new characters that I want to use in my games. Now I want to do that with Infestation!
Without further ado, if you want to take part, here’s what we need: ·
A 100 word synopsis for your story, which must be based around Deadzone. It can overlap with our other games if you like.
A 500 word writing sample so that we can get an understanding of your ability and style.
A signed copy of the following agreement: Mantic Short Story Agreement (300KB, PDF).
Please send your submission to our editor Greg Smith at greg995@googlemail.com.
Once the submission period has ended we will go through the entries, pick out the best, and get started on the stories! Stories picked for the following stages will be need to be approximately 6000 words. The top 10-12 that make it through to the final stages will be published in an anthology available through Mantic Digital, and may also be used in our upcoming rulebooks and expansions for the game. Furthermore, there are prizes!
The single best submission will win $250 cash!
All other stories picked for publication will win $100 worth of Mantic goodies!
The closing date is midnight on the 10th of August 2015. Pens at the ready, off you go!
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: A 100 word synopsis for your story, which must be based around Deadzone. It can overlap with our other games if you like.
A 500 word writing sample so that we can get an understanding of your ability and style.
A signed copy of the following agreement: Mantic Short Story Agreement (300KB, PDF).
Please send your submission to our editor Greg Smith at greg995@googlemail.com.
Once the submission period has ended we will go through the entries, pick out the best, and get started on the stories! Stories picked for the following stages will be need to be approximately 6000 words. The top 10-12 that make it through to the final stages will be published in an anthology available through Mantic Digital, and may also be used in our upcoming rulebooks and expansions for the game. Furthermore, there are prizes!
The single best submission will win $250 cash!
All other stories picked for publication will win $100 worth of Mantic goodies!
The closing date is midnight on the 10th of August 2015. Pens at the ready, off you go!
It's less terrible than their last contest (where the prize was providing unpaid labour, with the opportunity for more unpaid labour in the future), but they're talking about publishing a ~70,000 book and paying something in the region of $750 for the authors (assuming the CoGS is 50% of the retail price). That's still pretty stingy unless that book is going to be free.
Just got my Dreadball Xtreme last wave box and rifled through it. Overall I'm quite pleased. Here are some 1st impressions.
Mutants / Robots:
I wasn't entirely pleased with either one of these teams when I saw them painted and assembled in the online pictures. I was critical of the mutants in particular here on Dakka. Having seen them up close, I can say that I'm going to have tremendous fun with both sets.
My primary problem with the Plague aesthetic in general is the microcephaly thing. I just don't care for their tiny heads; for me, only the 1st gen pulls it off well. During the course of building my own Plague I've discovered how much fun it can be to alter / kitbash the suckers, and many of the 3rd Gens I originally didn't care for now look just fine or great with heads from other Mantic figures or other ranges. I know people go on about the 3rd gen "uber-torso," but that only spoils one or two of the most extreme 3rd Gen bodies for me - (the mortar crew) - the rest look good to me with a normal-sized head. Anyhow, from a kitbashing standpoint I'm looking at the mutants as a pile of very useful bits; I expect that when I'm finished mixing them up with other bits and bobs (and better scaled heads), I'll love these mutants.
The robots likewise. I don't know if I'll even build them as a DBX team, but it shouldn't be hard to use them as chassis for weapon arms / bits from other lines. Or as servitor robots with tools doing background civilian stuff.
Giants:
The Chovar is fantastic, and a great substitute if you don't want to field the metal one. The Iron Ancestor is pretty much exactly the same size as the standard Warpath one, so modding it and including it with your FF force is no problem. Personally I'd like to change the awkward right arm position, and hey, maybe I will. The San-Gar is absurd with his shark's head sticking out of a humanoid body, but he's fun. I think with some modifications - I'd smooth out the head transition with some more armor bits and give him a finned tail for balance, myself - he'd look great in a Sphyr military force. The Kravastor spider is odd, and could be a lot more menacing, but given that it's a Koris beast from their weirdo alternate dimension, its bizarrely muscled legs and cyber-whatever doodads work well enough. It looks more beast-of-burden than lethal predator to me, but fine.
Sponsors: I love these guys. Lots of character and no weapons, so they can be used in Deadzone / Warpath / etc. as civvies, commanders, or objectives, and stylistically they fit right in. If you've ever thought about modding up a Teraton strike force and thought Kraato Gon would add some flavor to it as a communications specialist or whatever, I think you'll be pleased. (Well, I did and am.)
Koris team:
I can't really comment fairly on these guys because I actually ordered the Tsudochan team and got the Koris by mistake. I was never entirely happy with the Koris model renders, which is why I didn't order them in the first place. Anyhow, this was Mantic's one mistake with my order, and I'll be contacting them about it.
Expandable board:
It's not a big deal for me, as realistically I may never get around to using them, but it does seem that some of my expandable boards are warped.
Looks like one of the Asterian droid figures for the Warpath KS slipped out a bit early. I don't think this has been posted here yet - (its from bruckenkopf.de)
In the end all I went in for was terrain, I figure Mantic will do a good deal on the game anyway but the cheap scatter terrain and parts are going to happen again. Gonna have to get one of those med-bots though, they turned out nice and wheres the Martian zombie from?
Well, crap, I was out last night, didn't get home til late, and the pledge manager closed. I messaged them; hopefully they'll let me pay for the items in my cart :(
judgedoug wrote: Well, crap, I was out last night, didn't get home til late, and the pledge manager closed. I messaged them; hopefully they'll let me pay for the items in my cart :(
Same for me. thought it closed midnight US East Coast time.
Well they got my $1, hopefully they will use it wisely. Still waiting on KOW2 and Dungeon Saga, and all my extra cash has already been spent on MODcubes, Conan, Blood Rage and Zombicide:Black Plague. Nothing really hit me with "must have" syndrome and I've got sooooo much that I need to not worry about "great deals" so much as get what I like..
I didn't even want the terrain and went in on the $5 jetbikes..
I did get a Forgefather army but that's more because I've seen the existing plastics and know what I'm getting.
I'm just not sold on the enforcer style. I'd rather spend the money on more zombies (planning crazy Zombicide:Black Plague pledge manager ) I never got into Zombicide before and in the past 2-3 weeks have picked up the main box, angry neighbors, toxic City mall, and a walk of the dead (actually all that in reverse order). I have been on a painting spree, which I've been uninspired for months, doing at least 5 minis a day has gotten the rotten juices flowing.
I bought the deadzone set post kickstarter and was disappointed in the models. I have also bought a couple sets of the terrain, but then got bored with scratch building and my only gaming opponent and I have been playing KOW, bloodbowl and Mordheim with me showing him Necromunda as well. He's not too keen on scifi. So I see the $1 I put down as a place holder as a minor loss. Mantic hasn't done anything to wrong me, they just didn't do anything to entice me more.
If I had the will to build another 40K-like army I'd be all over the forgefathers, but I have a few hundred marines gagging dust as it is.
MLaw wrote: I didn't even want the terrain and went in on the $5 jetbikes..
I did get a Forgefather army but that's more because I've seen the existing plastics and know what I'm getting.
I happen to be one of the few who likes the current Forgefather half-fantasy plastics, but Instill went in for a bunch of the new ones. The new Forge Guard have their issues, but their design is more than enough to make up for them to me.
MLaw wrote: I didn't even want the terrain and went in on the $5 jetbikes..
I did get a Forgefather army but that's more because I've seen the existing plastics and know what I'm getting.
I happen to be one of the few who likes the current Forgefather half-fantasy plastics, but Instill went in for a bunch of the new ones. The new Forge Guard have their issues, but their design is more than enough to make up for them to me.
Yeah me too. I did a quick comparison between the Hybrid and the Brokkrs and they look pretty close scale wise. Very slightly taller (1-3mm maybe).
I spent less because a starter on the KS in USD is 2 dollars away from retail cost in CAD.
After a lot of people (apparently) complained to Ronnie at GenCon, the DZI pledge manager has been reopened for loiterers and lackwits to get their pledge done.
You will have from 18:00 BST 05-Aug-2015 until Midnight BST 09-Aug-2015 to get your pledge in if you missed out.
I went in for I think 60 of the FF's. I hate the current sprues and would love to have an army of the crazy little buggers for 40k. 60 gets me a minimum size battle company plus a few extra dudes.
Hulksmash wrote: I went in for I think 60 of the FF's. I hate the current sprues and would love to have an army of the crazy little buggers for 40k. 60 gets me a minimum size battle company plus a few extra dudes.
Im thinking they'd be perfect in the Imperialis Militia list as Grenadiers with "Survivors of the Dark Age" (3+ saves) and "Abhuman Helots" (+1T). Hailstorm Cannon as Rapiers, Iron Ancestor as Ogryn maybe and the old/current plastics as Militia.
You can add to it by running through it again, but I have no idea if you can cancel an order and redo if it you're, for example, trying to up your pledge level
scarletsquig wrote: So.. Ronnie was showing off the new Deadzone rulebook to everyone at GenCon.
Did he say when they were going to share it on KS? Or anything else that you are allowed to tell us? I listened to an episode of the Podcast on a road trip and those guys seemed convinced that stat cards are on the way out. Anything?
I think it will look better as the bomber variant overall I like it but the troop transport section is a bit clunky especially at the back the boarding ramp section could have been better designed to make it look more sleek at least it looks like the troops can actually fit in and out of it
for completeness as these didn't get posted yet:
Hund the Bounty Hunter/Rin Nomad
Yeah the drop ship looks fine, won't get it though since I only play Deadzone. Now that I think about, it might still be really cool as a terrain piece...
Mymearan wrote: Yeah the drop ship looks fine, won't get it though since I only play Deadzone. Now that I think about, it might still be really cool as a terrain piece...
Gotta have something to stick on all those landing pad pieces...
The dropship is interesting. How much is it supposed to retail for? I like some parts (the eyeballs at cockpit remind me both of terminator helms and the old buck rogers hawkman fighter) and definitely not others (like both of the fins). I'd at a minimum change the direction of the wing and tail fins if not convert them to something else entirely.
Nothing they've done so far is really comparable the closest for plastic content is a Battlezone which was $35 in DZ:I and had 2 unique building sprues and 2 accessory sprues. The Interceptor could probably be done in 4 or 5 sprues so maybe in that price range? (for the KS no idea for retail) pure guess work though There will no doubt be bundle deals that will make it cheaper to get more.
I think it will be a flagship model for the Warpath KS (excuse the pun) and no doubt they will sell gakloads of them, especially if bundles are available.
I would be down for one for sure. If they make some kind of *really* tempting 2 or 3 pack... I may cave. Warpath is gonna have to be the kickstarter where I go in and get 'all the things' for only one or two factions. I don't foresee being able to top out on WP like I did DZ or MA. That ship though, definitely want at least one.
Really torn on Warpath myself. I have no doubt I'll love all the models but the current rules seem a bit weird to me, having to track all these hubs within units and such just seems to bog down a mass battle game for no particular reason.
Plus Mantic constantly changing their minds on rewards after the funding period is over has kinda pissed me off.
The dropship is interesting. How much is it supposed to retail for? I like some parts (the eyeballs at cockpit remind me both of terminator helms and the old buck rogers hawkman fighter) and definitely not others (like both of the fins). I'd at a minimum change the direction of the wing and tail fins if not convert them to something else entirely.
Ha! Thanks to your comment, I have just realized that the cockpit is a giant enforcer helmet! That's cool and/or ridiculous!
Has anyone looked at the smaller-scale rules for the warpath beta, was it firefight or something like that?
They were just a few notes added onto the main rules and not really fleshed out in anyway. It was clear they were looking at the mass battle rules rules first then they'd look at the smaller scale as an extra, which is a shame as the beta rules have really put me off warpath as it stands.
I think mantic are currently reevaluating the warpath rules after the beta feedback, there definitely was a split in the fan base over what type of game people wanted, about 70/30 in favour of the multi basing hubs vs individual stats and targeting. The beta forums been pretty dead for a couple of months now.
id recommend downloading the beta rules and seeing what you think yourself (Their on the mantic forum I believe)
Appreciate the information. I may even have them downloaded but this newborn is keeping me from getting much done I'm not entirely sure I'll actually get to play either iteration of the game, though the skirmishier size would be more possible.
Lol, the longer I look at that ship, the more it looks like they took a GW valkyrie cockpit, parts from one of the Space Marine flyers (can't remember the names) and the slapped on an Enforcer helmet and details from a 3up of that big fortification gun from DZ. I'm sure in person it will look better, especially with a slightly less obvious paint scheme.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I'm not a big fan of the hubs idea. I've played numerous games that have clumps like that (Epic, Warmaster, 5150, and a few other 15mm ones that I can't recall the names of without digging through my PDFs). It has the potential to have units move and shoot faster but it kills the sense of immersion and pushes more towards meta-gaming.
If it's for insanely large conflicts.. sure fine, whatever, I don't really go in for those types of endeavors any more. If it's closer to 30-80 models fighting it out.. then I much prefer individual figures on individual bases.
Changing subject from Warpath back to Dreadball for a moment, when was it we were supposed to contact them by about not receiving our pledges? I'm still waiting on Eclipse, Mechanites, and a Medibot and haven't even received as much as a shipping notice about them.
...I won't mention that my stuff showed up today then.
Naturally with something goofed.
Random extra teams tossed in with what seems a very random assortment of players... but not the stuff I paid for. Wanted to maximize the mutants and mechs since they'd be multi part figures, only got the basic stuff.
Whether I ever get to play a game using any of it remains to be seen...
latest comment on the 
can someone explain the differences and please I hope it just not make one model count as a team of one or I rage quit mantic 
Stylized, but informed.
More realistic in scope, but failing in the execution.
I'm not entirely sure I'll actually get to play either iteration of the game, though the skirmishier size would be more possible.
