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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:
Both enforcer kits were solid, quality plastic kits as well. So were the plague zombies. Forgefather plastics turned out solid too, from what I gather. They seem to have the plastics worked out pretty well now.

Well, they were good enough. They weren't great. They certainly weren't on par with Renedra, Wargames Factory or Games Workshop. Mostly, this is probably due to Mantic's inexperience on sculpting minis for plastic production, but there were also spots of melty-soft detail, poor fit, and poorly placed connection points/mold split. The type of plastic is also harder than most HIPS, and responds poorly to 'plastic glue' meant for polystyrene kits (but works fine with plastic weld). They certainly weren't $4-per-mini quality plastics. I feel 5 for $10 is about the most I'd spend on the new Mantic plastics per mini.

They also haven't learned that a suit of armour needs to fit around the wearer. A helmet needs to be bigger than your head so that you can wear it, while the placement of joints in a segmented exoskeleton must align with those of the wearer so that the wearer's body and the armour can move together.

Well, yeah. The designs Mantic likes these days tend not to match real life anatomy. Still, they work as robots...silly robots.

lol, it's funny.. I backed the White Dragon KS and the whole time I kept thinking Mantic must've had a hand in the design of that big ass mecha.

 MLaw wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:
...So suddenly what you phrased as a specific dig at mantic was apparently just a generic platitude regarding any company, ever. Right.

But keep not-quite-accusing me of arguing from preconceived notions.

The thing is, my comment was, as it happens directed at Mantic. It was not directed at you. However, your response was specifically directed at me so I returned in kind. If you would like to avoid that in the future, I would advise refraining from taking shots at me, especially when the comment in question was my own musings as they relate to a public entity. What you're proposing is that people should not be allowed to express their views towards public entities if it clashes with your own. I would wonder if you are named Kim and posting from a country whose name rhymes with North Tortilla.

Funny thing about forums out here on this newfangled internet thingy is that if you say something that doesn't make sense, this tends to get pointed out to you. To reciprocate the sentiment: if you don't appreciate that, stick with comments-disabled macrame youtube videos

 Bolognesus wrote:

 MLaw wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:
...So suddenly what you phrased as a specific dig at mantic was apparently just a generic platitude regarding any company, ever. Right.

But keep not-quite-accusing me of arguing from preconceived notions.

The thing is, my comment was, as it happens directed at Mantic. It was not directed at you. However, your response was specifically directed at me so I returned in kind. If you would like to avoid that in the future, I would advise refraining from taking shots at me, especially when the comment in question was my own musings as they relate to a public entity. What you're proposing is that people should not be allowed to express their views towards public entities if it clashes with your own. I would wonder if you are named Kim and posting from a country whose name rhymes with North Tortilla.

Funny thing about forums out here on this newfangled internet thingy is that if you say something that doesn't make sense, this tends to get pointed out to you. To reciprocate the sentiment: if you don't appreciate that, stick with comments-disabled macrame youtube videos

My comments didn't make sense to you because you took them out of context. Then after the context was explained to you, you stamped your feet like a kid and said "nu-uh". Unless of course you know what my intended message was better than I do? If you would imply that I would be so cowardly as to passive-aggressively attack anyone, I will say this. I don't typically operate that way. As a veteran, a father, a college grad, and a husband of 14 years, I have enough balls to say exactly what I mean. I will also say that since you are so eager to try to stomp on my toes, here they are big boy but you need to make sure you bring some mighty big shoes. Internet tough guys trying to jockey people they don't know and twist what they say is nothing new but you have done it with probably the least grace, tact, or intelligence that I have ever seen it perpetrated with and if you really want to make potential friends into enemies every time someone you don't know pops up then let's keep going that way otherwise keep your ignorant trap shut unless I directly address you.

Seriously guys.

IF you see a post you think is against the rules of the site - report it.

Don't Break/continue to break the rules of the site by:

1) going against Rule #1
2) posting off topic stuff for 'laughs'
3) etc.

So, warnings given for Rule #1, Off Topic, Spam, etc.

So please, back on topic here - thanks!

 Alpharius wrote:
Seriously guys.

IF you see a post you think is against the rules of the site - report it.

Don't Break/continue to break the rules of the site by:

1) going against Rule #1
2) posting off topic stuff for 'laughs'
3) etc.

So, warnings given for Rule #1, Off Topic, Spam, etc.

So please, back on topic here - thanks!

Just to be clear.. you do recognize that I didn't actually start this right? This guy has been hounding me for 2 or 3 pages..

His point is "Everyone stop it" and doesn't mention any names, so don't get too concerned that someone is trying to harsh your buzz.

If you think they were hounding you and breaking the rules follow the "report it" request and everyone is golden.

 Dawnbringer wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

They also haven't learned that a suit of armour needs to fit around the wearer. A helmet needs to be bigger than your head so that you can wear it, while the placement of joints in a segmented exoskeleton must align with those of the wearer so that the wearer's body and the armour can move together.

To be fair I don't think GW have learned that either and they've been at it alot longer.

It's not ignorance, it's artistic license. Realistically sized helmets would make space marines look like bobble heads and terminators impossible.

To be fair, enforcer helmets are worse than space marine helmets in that regard.

Comparing proportions to GW minis doesn't make any sense. GW's minis are not intended to be in perfect scale. They are designed in a specific style, and they are very, very good at hitting that style (usually). Mantic minis used to be truescale. Then they went Rackham. Then they waffled a bit. No matter which scale they are intended to be, they always seem a little bit off the mark, probably due to weak artistic direction and the famous Mantic Art Director Vacuum.

GW minis are like Bruce Timm's artwork:
Stylized, but informed.

Mantic minis are often more like Liefeld artwork:
More realistic in scope, but failing in the execution.

Now, Liefeld's drawings are probably closer to real life human beings in terms of absolute proportions, measurements, facial construction and detail, while Timm's is obviously more cartoonish and unrealistic, but no one would consider Liefeld's artwork superior to Timm's in execution.


In short, saying that Mantic does on accident what GW does on purpose (and better) is not doing Mantic any favors.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

That tumour looks inoperable.

You say they have no artist direction yet the vermin all have a very strong direction. Not everyone likes that direction but it's there.

I like all the small terrain bits the best. I hope going forward for the Scifi battlezone stuff they focus on more bits like those.

I think the move to a weekly overall update could be good assuming that each kickstarters got large updates once in a while.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
The type of plastic is also harder than most HIPS, and responds poorly to 'plastic glue' meant for polystyrene kits (but works fine with plastic weld).

Really? I've used the pretty standard, and frequently recommended for all polystyrenes, Tamiya Extra Thin Cement on mine, and haven't had any problems at all.

Well, after some hard introspection I decided to just go for some accessory sprues, the printed mission book and maybe one of the mats for a change of scenery.

Normally I'm a sucker for hardcover rulebooks, but after I got the 'deluxe' hardback from Kickstarter 1 and now finding it to be more or less obsolete after about 1.5 years, I'm not willing to invest much more - I remember reading somewhere that KS1 backers will get a PDF of the new rules, won't they?

I don't really care about the new teams, and most of the somewhat interesting new single models are still in a sketchbook state - which is too much of a risk when Mantic are involved...

So I just got another Darklands starter from the Metal Age KS instead.

 MLaw wrote:
If Reaper Miniatures are to be believed.. then Mantic is already being dishonest by using Kickstarter to sell existing products (in DZ:I they sold DZ sets and all of KoW was existing minis +new rules..that..are free). So either Reaper miniatures is lying about KS requiring project creators to only offer new items as rewards or Mantic is violating a core rule of kickstarter campaigns. This is definitely a chin-scratcher for me..

Reaper could be taking a literal view of the kickstarter rules, but some very high profile campaigns have included existing products.

What Reaper is really trying to do is protect their distributor and retail network, which is something that Mantic needs to learn to do. By only including new product in the pledge, Reaper can look retailers in the eyes and tell them they aren't cannibalizing business.

If you ask around, Reaper aren't protecting their distributors so much as they are desperately trying to apologise to them - they've been actively sabotaging the supply chain as punishment for Reaper daring to cut them out by shipping KS product straight to backers.

 Polonius wrote:

 MLaw wrote:
If Reaper Miniatures are to be believed.. then Mantic is already being dishonest by using Kickstarter to sell existing products (in DZ:I they sold DZ sets and all of KoW was existing minis +new rules..that..are free). So either Reaper miniatures is lying about KS requiring project creators to only offer new items as rewards or Mantic is violating a core rule of kickstarter campaigns. This is definitely a chin-scratcher for me..

Reaper could be taking a literal view of the kickstarter rules, but some very high profile campaigns have included existing products.

I posted the rules above. Even a literal reading allows existing product to be sold.

 MLaw wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:

. They've never been shy about the fact that they're riding on GWs' coat-tails and using the growing swell of players fleeing that sinking ship to float their own boats. If you think a business who builds their model around that kind of philosophy is at their core, good, honest, and to be trusted, then I have a bridge to sell you. It's right next to this toy shop in the North Pole.. fantastic view.

Right. Because making derivatives of products of complacent industry giants is bad now? Good grief, that's where most innovation comes from.
Sorry if mr Renton apparently wee'ed in your cheerios sometime in the recent past, but let's cut at least the obviously inane arguments, shall we?

So.. here's the thing. I didn't say Mantic was bad. I understand the "defend the brand" type of mentality fans take I do.

The hilarious part is that Ronnie, Alessio, Rick, Jervis, et al, still get together and play games and get drinks at the pub together.

GW may be some big evil corporation but Jervis Johnson plays Black Powder with Rick Priestley and John Stallard while Alessio and Ronnie have a joke about Age of Sigmar


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:
Both enforcer kits were solid, quality plastic kits as well. So were the plague zombies. Forgefather plastics turned out solid too, from what I gather. They seem to have the plastics worked out pretty well now.

Well, they were good enough. They weren't great. They certainly weren't on par with Renedra, Wargames Factory or Games Workshop. Mostly, this is probably due to Mantic's inexperience on sculpting minis for plastic production, but there were also spots of melty-soft detail, poor fit, and poorly placed connection points/mold split. The type of plastic is also harder than most HIPS, and responds poorly to 'plastic glue' meant for polystyrene kits (but works fine with plastic weld). They certainly weren't $4-per-mini quality plastics. I feel 5 for $10 is about the most I'd spend on the new Mantic plastics per mini.

I dunno dude, I love 'em. the Enforcers and Peacekeepers are my favorite sci fi plastic infantry on the market. And methyl ethyl ketone works just fine on 'em.
But I do agree about $2 per mini, which is what my personal max is for new plastics anyway. $4 is dumb.

I don't really understand what issues people seem to be having with gluing the enforcers either. I've used several 'regular' plastic glues and they work perfectly fine (all the sprued enforcers, of course - the restic requires superglue or plastic-weld).

As for price, yeah, I agree.

Oh, and quoting the troll after a warning so people can't properly respond seems poor form, but whatever.

 NTRabbit wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
The type of plastic is also harder than most HIPS, and responds poorly to 'plastic glue' meant for polystyrene kits (but works fine with plastic weld).

Really? I've used the pretty standard, and frequently recommended for all polystyrenes, Tamiya Extra Thin Cement on mine, and haven't had any problems at all.

I use Humberto poly precision for my HIPS minis and it was not very effective on the Men at Arms or Peacekeepers, but I also didn't spend a whole lot of time trying to make it work. The second time a joint hardened without melding, I just reached for the hard stuff.

 NobodyXY wrote:
You say they have no artist direction yet the vermin all have a very strong direction. Not everyone likes that direction but it's there.

This is exactly right. Unfortunately, some people believe that everyone is supposed to love that direction just because Mantic is associated. All we can do is vote with our wallets and voice our opinions, and hope that our sentiment isn't drowned out by the cries of the man-babies.

Mine all went together fine with the tried and true Testors orange plastic cement tubes.

I don't think I can ever stop using the danged stuff either. The smell alone gets me all nostalgic for building models when I was a kid.

 judgedoug wrote:

 MLaw wrote:

 Bolognesus wrote:

. They've never been shy about the fact that they're riding on GWs' coat-tails and using the growing swell of players fleeing that sinking ship to float their own boats. If you think a business who builds their model around that kind of philosophy is at their core, good, honest, and to be trusted, then I have a bridge to sell you. It's right next to this toy shop in the North Pole.. fantastic view.

Right. Because making derivatives of products of complacent industry giants is bad now? Good grief, that's where most innovation comes from.
Sorry if mr Renton apparently wee'ed in your cheerios sometime in the recent past, but let's cut at least the obviously inane arguments, shall we?

So.. here's the thing. I didn't say Mantic was bad. I understand the "defend the brand" type of mentality fans take I do.

The hilarious part is that Ronnie, Alessio, Rick, Jervis, et al, still get together and play games and get drinks at the pub together.

GW may be some big evil corporation but Jervis Johnson plays Black Powder with Rick Priestley and John Stallard while Alessio and Ronnie have a joke about Age of Sigmar

I follow Andy Chambers and even he still has a pretty "worldly" view of the whole thing. Occasionally, he mentions Gav Thorpe, who from how it seems washed his hands of most of the miniature gaming scene, but it does seem like they stay in touch. Again, my sentiment is that these companies are all just doing what they can and really what they know. Mantic is not better or worse than GW, Warlord, etc. I own product from almost every games company I can think of. I buy the product I like and try not to get hung up too much in idolizing companies who all have their own skeletons, all take whatever shortcuts they need, and all hustle however they can to try to turn a profit.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Mine all went together fine with the tried and true Testors orange plastic cement tubes.

I don't think I can ever stop using the danged stuff either. The smell alone gets me all nostalgic for building models when I was a kid.

Well, maybe I just use the wrong glue.

 MLaw wrote:

 NobodyXY wrote:
You say they have no artist direction yet the vermin all have a very strong direction. Not everyone likes that direction but it's there.

This is exactly right. Unfortunately, some people believe that everyone is supposed to love that direction just because Mantic is associated. All we can do is vote with our wallets and voice our opinions, and hope that our sentiment isn't drowned out by the cries of the man-babies.

Er wut? I'm in favour of the new direction. Thanks for calling me names though. I disagree with you and found your comparison a few pages back just petty and laughable. Not everyone is going to like the same things, shocker I know.




The biggest problems I've had with DZ minis has been having release agent on a Marauder troop booster. Washed off well enough. The resitc enforcers are very small pieces and the mold lines can be a pain around the knees and shoulder pads . A quick thin wash is really helpful. The zombies went together fairly well.

I'm in for $1, and I guess I should figure out if I want to spend anymore. I still have a ton of unassembled Deadzone from KS1, and neither the rats or the Pathfinders are really calling my name. The only thing that's really appealing to me is the new terrain (I want to get into Infinity!). Is the $100 terrain only pledge remotely worth it?

I'd also be up for the new rules, but I don't really need them in hardcover - hopefully they'll be available cheaper at retail.

Re: Art direction.

Perhaps we mean different things. I see the new Veermyn have a coherent look, and that's great, but the marauders don't. The various human factions don't have the same proportions or style. There are many sculpts that could have used a second draft with some specific feedback.

It feels to me like Mantic uses a lot of freelancers who may be responsible for the look of one or two particular ranges, which sometimes works out pretty well, but there is no one overriding voice that is responsible for making sure all the ranges mesh well and make sense together. For example, the zombie corp marines do not scale with the living corp marines. Then there are the sculpts that are just plain bad (or marmite since there always seem to be some people who will buy anything). The dog drone was changed (arguably for the better, even) because the backers made a lot of noise, yet the Enforcer Scouts still look the same, because apparently ensuring you have a great sculpt instead of a not-too-bad sculpt before you spend tens of thousands on tooling is outside of Mantic's art director's purview. Or there is no art director.

I got a lot of flack for saying similar things about Medge's Epirian Contractors, but for Mantic it's an even bigger issue. Mantic is not a small group of guys making their first minis anymore. They keep making rookie mistakes or communicating worse than a Polish company trying to sidestep copyright laws. They keep screwing up the small things and almost screwing up the big things. When GW hands them a golden opportunity, they hand it right back, saying, "no, thanks." I love Mantic, I want to see them succeed, but I would do them no favors by letting them get away with such incompetence without calling them on it.

The Deadzone Marauders do have a consistent look though, so I'm not really following you.

Also I think the old DOG drone is miles better than the new one they sculpted up.

 judgedoug wrote:

I dunno dude, I love 'em. the Enforcers and Peacekeepers are my favorite sci fi plastic infantry on the market. And methyl ethyl ketone works just fine on 'em.
But I do agree about $2 per mini, which is what my personal max is for new plastics anyway. $4 is dumb.

I'm not sure how I would rank them. I love the design of the Enforcers, especially the Peacekeepers, but the execution reduced my joy. Same thing with Sedition Wars' Samaritans. DFG's Valkir were more complicated minis, and a real pleasure to assemble, but their designs are limited to not-GW and not-Star Wars, at least for now. GW's minis are brilliant, but too expensive to love. If DG were still making UAMC, I'd probably be buying them along with WGF WW2 plastics to make all kinds of conversions.

Reapers' Bones Bathalians and Kulathi minis are my favorite alien minis on the market right now, and no one but DFG seems interested in making any viable competition for them. If Alien Host or Sentinel Games got into gear, we'd probably get to see Mantic and other established companies forced to up their game for alien minis. Of all the Warpath alien races to get the HIPS treatment, I have no idea why Mantic went with Veermyn first. (Well, third if you count the Forgefathers and orx, which were more like half-sci fi minis, and definitely part of an older paradigm about what sci fi minis gamers want.)

Is ethyl ketone what is in Humbrol Poly? I guess I must be using the wrong stuff, because it works fine for GW, WGF and Renedra, but doesn't work on the newer Mantic plastics for me. Not without really dousing the joins with enough glue to melt their little faces off. As someone who is chemically sensitive, I try not to use the modelling glues from my childhood. I had a lot of fun back then, but those fumes were something else. It probably didn't help that we did all the modelling in the dining room.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NTRabbit wrote:
The Deadzone Marauders do have a consistent look though, so I'm not really following you.

Also I think the old DOG drone is miles better than the new one they sculpted up.

1. The HIPS marauders and Dreadball marauders don't match them, though.

2. That's why I said arguably. I also liked the earlier version more.

In what way don't the Dreadball Marauders match them? I have them side by side on the shelf at the moment, and the Orcs and Goblins look exactly the same, just one lot are in military uniform, and the other are in sports uniform.

The old hard plastic ones sure, but those were made to be not-Boyz, they're the old direction that need fluff fiddling to fit into the new one, same as the old Stormrage and Steel Warriors.

I thought their faces were different. I have the dreadball orx, and their faces look more blunt and hulkish, whereas the DZ orx look like they have more apish, plastic orxy faces.