Wyzilla wrote: It doesn't matter how ridiculous it is- your opinion on its ridiculous nature is irrelevant, canon's canon. If author X declares something has X Biiggatons in a novel, it has X amount of biggatons. That's the end of it, because the author has the final say on their material, or at least until enough time has passed that it becomes public property and death of the author takes actual effect, although even then the legitimacy of people's opinions concerning what the author penned are debatable.
It's canon, but it's nonsense. And it can't be used in a discussion like this because there's nothing to compare to. What does "THE BATTALSHIPS MAXIMAM SPEED IS ERWOIJ$WJU$#)(U$#)(UT()$#TJ)$#T$#OGFBIO$#OI$JGOI$EGJ" even mean? How does that translate into acceleration, typical combat speed, etc? What can we actually get from this canon quote besides "the author doesn't understand how space works"?
asorel wrote: Still ignoring the part about your own hypocrisy, I see.
I am rejecting a canon number because it is incoherent nonsense. It's like claiming "the battleship's guns have a firepower of 9999999 meters per square volt", it doesn't matter if the words are canon or not because the meaning of those words is so obviously not a reasonable thing to say.
It doesn't matter how ridiculous it is- your opinion on its ridiculous nature is irrelevant, canon's canon. If author X declares something has X Biiggatons in a novel, it has X amount of biggatons. That's the end of it, because the author has the final say on their material, or at least until enough time has passed that it becomes public property and death of the author takes actual effect, although even then the legitimacy of people's opinions concerning what the author penned are debatable. What's debatable if people's own calculations made entirely separate of the official material turn out nonsensical (like "vaporization" calcs) or if there's a canon policy that renders something invalid- for example under the old canon policy of Star Wars (movies > tv show > comics, books, and videogames) and a book like the ICS AOTC mentions 200 gigatons, which conflicts directly with the visuals of the movies (because there are no gigatons to be seen outside of the Death Star). Although that's an old, ooolllld matter with the retcon basically resetting the clock when it comes to figuring out just how big the booms are in Star Wars to the 1990's and early 00's.
Okay Wyzilla, if canon is canon, how do you reconcile GWs official stance that everything is canon, but one third is true, one third is lies and the last third is exaggeration. Which means that two thirds of your facts are in-fact wrong when arguing for the GW universe.
If the author uses a nonexistent unit of measurement (such as Lasguns firing 19 megathules of energy), while meaningless to us, it is a quantifiable thing.
On the other hand, if the author uses units that are in use today (for example, saying a light bulb emits 22 ohms), it is assumed they are talking about real life fe measurements at which point the information should be ignored because it is meaninglessm
Mozzyfuzzy wrote: Don't a lot of the 40k canon space battle take place at stupidly short range (I recall the World Eaters having space ship grapples or something ridiculous) ?
Yeah, a bit.
Its a bit more reasonable in BFG though, iirc.
I recall there being a little passage that even though they are close on the table, the models are actually very far apart.
Mozzyfuzzy wrote: Don't a lot of the 40k canon space battle take place at stupidly short range (I recall the World Eaters having space ship grapples or something ridiculous) ?
Yeah, a bit.
Its a bit more reasonable in BFG though, iirc.
I recall there being a little passage that even though they are close on the table, the models are actually very far apart.
Well yeah. The actual model doesn't have any rules significance. All measurements are made to the stem of the flying base, which represents the immediate area around the ship itself.
Mozzyfuzzy wrote: Don't a lot of the 40k canon space battle take place at stupidly short range (I recall the World Eaters having space ship grapples or something ridiculous) ?
Angron's flagship has them - and yep they are awesome Tyranids use them a lot and pump termagaunts and worse organisms into your ship whilst attached.
Martel732 wrote: As I said, WW II infantry is way more dangerous than these assclowns.
Which universe did you talk about? The one where only the elite of the elite use specialized melee weapons or the one where even the basest mooks not only have a combat knife but will probably be thrown into close combat? ;-)
asorel wrote: Still ignoring the part about your own hypocrisy, I see.
I am rejecting a canon number because it is incoherent nonsense. It's like claiming "the battleship's guns have a firepower of 9999999 meters per square volt", it doesn't matter if the words are canon or not because the meaning of those words is so obviously not a reasonable thing to say.
It doesn't matter how ridiculous it is- your opinion on its ridiculous nature is irrelevant, canon's canon. If author X declares something has X Biiggatons in a novel, it has X amount of biggatons. That's the end of it, because the author has the final say on their material, or at least until enough time has passed that it becomes public property and death of the author takes actual effect, although even then the legitimacy of people's opinions concerning what the author penned are debatable. What's debatable if people's own calculations made entirely separate of the official material turn out nonsensical (like "vaporization" calcs) or if there's a canon policy that renders something invalid- for example under the old canon policy of Star Wars (movies > tv show > comics, books, and videogames) and a book like the ICS AOTC mentions 200 gigatons, which conflicts directly with the visuals of the movies (because there are no gigatons to be seen outside of the Death Star). Although that's an old, ooolllld matter with the retcon basically resetting the clock when it comes to figuring out just how big the booms are in Star Wars to the 1990's and early 00's.
Okay Wyzilla, if canon is canon, how do you reconcile GWs official stance that everything is canon, but one third is true, one third is lies and the last third is exaggeration. Which means that two thirds of your facts are in-fact wrong when arguing for the GW universe.
Cheers
Andrew
No it isn't. GW doesn't even have a policy to speak of, and there's no "muh thirds" at all mentioned, anything may be true or false, and that's the end of it. And there's a conflicting statement from one of the chief editors that the "everything is full of lies" is of itself misinterpreted.
Not that it matters, because you experience with fiction must be incredibly limited if you even think internal consistency exists in anything fictional. Star Wars, Star Trek, Doctor Who, Lord of the Rings, just to name the big names have absolutely zero consistency in any regard to events within them, and some can't even decide what timeline they're on (coughdoctorwhocough).
If the author uses a nonexistent unit of measurement (such as Lasguns firing 19 megathules of energy), while meaningless to us, it is a quantifiable thing.
On the other hand, if the author uses units that are in use today (for example, saying a light bulb emits 22 ohms), it is assumed they are talking about real life fe measurements at which point the information should be ignored because it is meaninglessm
Wat. We have no reason to ignore the author if he or she specifically mentions a modern unit of measurement, because they clearly are quantifying that event in literal definitions.
Wyzilla wrote: Wat. We have no reason to ignore the author if he or she specifically mentions a modern unit of measurement, because they clearly are quantifying that event in literal definitions.
You do if it is contradicted by another modern unit of measurement in a different publication.
Let's cut straight to the chase. Every 40k vs "other" always devolves back down to the "petaton yield" weapons needed for surface scouring exterminatus. You'll have those that hinge their entire argument on the raw damage calcs needed to remove entire continents, and pack that into a battlecruiser, and you'll have those that argue that exterminatus as a feat is unreliable as it's usually described by some onlooker with some degree of hyperbole.
Personally, I think that there is absolutely no question that 40k capital ship weaponry is more powerful than Star Wars capital ship weaponry. I don't think that it's more than 10x more powerful however. I base this rationalization on the fact that IIRC, torps are rated at 600gt in BFG (meaning that having 100x terra and petaton weapons is idiotic, if they are 1000's of times more powerful than your torps) and more tellingly, Space Orks are known to use unshielded asteroids (which we can calculate energy needed to destroy), and as these are not an insignifcant threat to the Imperium we can only conclude that the petaton-terraton power calcs are totally out to lunch.
In conclusion: I would think that factions with FTL travel, able to bring sizable numbers of capital ships to bear with weapons in the 10x to 100x gigaton range should be able to put up some sort of fight, although IMO, I think logistics and supply lines are going to be the difference between winning and losing for both sides - and in with this in mind, the Empire has the more reliable system.
If the author uses a nonexistent unit of measurement (such as Lasguns firing 19 megathules of energy), while meaningless to us, it is a quantifiable thing.
On the other hand, if the author uses units that are in use today (for example, saying a light bulb emits 22 ohms), it is assumed they are talking about real life fe measurements at which point the information should be ignored because it is meaninglessm
Wat. We have no reason to ignore the author if he or she specifically mentions a modern unit of measurement, because they clearly are quantifying that event in literal definitions.
I didn't say to ignore the author because they mentioned a modern unit of measurement. I said to ignore the author if the usage of the measurement makes no sense - such as using ohms (a measurement of resistance) instead of watts (a measurement of power).
If I told you that a car had a top speed of 22 megajoules, how would you react?
Wyzilla wrote:
No it isn't. GW doesn't even have a policy to speak of, and there's no "muh thirds" at all mentioned, anything may be true or false, and that's the end of it. And there's a conflicting statement from one of the chief editors that the "everything is full of lies" is of itself misinterpreted.
Not that it matters, because you experience with fiction must be incredibly limited if you even think internal consistency exists in anything fictional. Star Wars, Star Trek, Doctor Who, Lord of the Rings, just to name the big names have absolutely zero consistency in any regard to events within them, and some can't even decide what timeline they're on (coughdoctorwhocough).
However those themes are subject to another conversation and I'd address those in the same way. However, as to cannon....
Re Canon, GW and BL.
Marc Gascoigne of the Black Library;
Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...
Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.
Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.
I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it.
Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note that answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends".
But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.
It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nucelar war; that nails it for me.
Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy.
To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you.
This is about the closest GW/BL comes to a canon policy.
Personally, I think that there is absolutely no question that 40k capital ship weaponry is more powerful than Star Wars capital ship weaponry. I don't think that it's more than 10x more powerful however. I base this rationalization on the fact that IIRC, torps are rated at 600gt in BFG (meaning that having 100x terra and petaton weapons is idiotic, if they are 1000's of times more powerful than your torps) and more tellingly, Space Orks are known to use unshielded asteroids (which we can calculate energy needed to destroy), and as these are not an insignifcant threat to the Imperium we can only conclude that the petaton-terraton power calcs are totally out to lunch.
The only direct quote for weapon yields was from 1st edition Space Hulk. It was for an exterminates level weapon, which was a mirv and each warhead had a 6 GT yield.
Depends on the situation.
-At long range the AT-AT hammers it with heavy firepower while only taking some minor damage because of its heavier armour.
-At short range the dreadnought gets past its field of fire, the AT-AT can't maneuver to get a bead on it, The dreadnought smashes its legs with fist attacks or pours firepower into weaker underside, destroying it with ease.
-At long range the AT-AT hammers it with heavy firepower while only taking some minor damage because of its heavier armour.
Assuming of course there is nothing to provide cover to the Dreadnought. If the battlefield is anything besides completely flat the AT-AT always will lose.
Assuming of course there is nothing to provide cover to the Dreadnought. If the battlefield is anything besides completely flat the AT-AT always will lose.
At long range my money would be on the AT-AT, unless their was a serious amount of cover for the dread to close the distance with. Those walkers can pump out a good rate of powerful shots and imperial gunners are no slouches -they didn't attend the same school of gunnery as the stormtroopers it would seem!
Assuming of course there is nothing to provide cover to the Dreadnought. If the battlefield is anything besides completely flat the AT-AT always will lose.
At long range my money would be on the AT-AT, unless their was a serious amount of cover for the dread to close the distance with. Those walkers can pump out a good rate of powerful shots and imperial gunners are no slouches -they didn't attend the same school of gunnery as the stormtroopers it would seem!
Except its only guns are on the head, and those walkers turn like glaciers. If the dreadnought has any sort of cover, it can circle around the back of the AT-AT, then plink away at the side and rear armor without being disturbed.
Eh, there's a scene during Hoth battle where an AT-AT managed to track and shoot a snowspeeder out of the air with not much issues. And its not like Dreadnaught are speedsters, either.
Bobthehero wrote: Eh, there's a scene during Hoth battle where an AT-AT managed to track and shoot a snowspeeder out of the air with not much issues. And its not like Dreadnaught are speedsters, either.
I stand corrected then. It's been a while since I last watched Empire. However, can you recall if it was just the neck moving, or was the transport as a whole rotating?
As for Dreadnoughts, they walk at least as fast as infantry, and can pivot 180° on the spot to meet oncoming opponents charging into combat. Yes, I know I'm using game mechanics in a fluff discussion, but I think these are enough to show that dreadnoughts are at least somewhat nimble.
Bobthehero wrote: Neck moving, still, trying to dance around the AT-AT is suicide if you try to do so while its facing you.
No more suicidal than standing still in front of it, I'd wager. As stated before, the outcome of this fight is reliant almost entirely on the presence of cover and engagement range. If the Dreadnought can reliably avoid fire long enough to get out of the neck's arc (which I'd estimate is 45 degrees each way), the AT-AT is finished. If the dread is on an open plane, or far enough away that it would take more than one or two solid hits from the AT-AT before completing the maneuver, the dreadnought is finished. The dreadnought has better accuracy, and the AT-AT better armored, but the encounter is so binary neither of these factors come into play.
Except its only guns are on the head, and those walkers turn like glaciers. If the dreadnought has any sort of cover, it can circle around the back of the AT-AT, then plink away at the side and rear armor without being disturbed.
If the dread had a pretty continuous row of buildings, high walls, trees or other serious cover then it could do that. Otherwise the AT-AT just holds fire until then and then lets rip once it becomes visible. Also worth considering is AT-AT's have a surprisingly high end speed (60kph) so if I was being outmaneuvered I'd put her into full speed reverse to keep thedistance open, all the time blasting away.
There are rules for Star Wars conventional forces in 40k
Not GW but a former GW employee
I would have thought that the AT-AT would be matched against a Stompa, Imperial Knight, the new Tau giant suit - sorry "creature" ? Maybe a Warhound Titan........... Don't ATAT's have some sort of shields?
Nope, no shielding on AT-ATs. They just have relatively thick armor, for Star Wars anyway.
Their design is completely impractical. They're slow, cannot turn even remotely fast, their cockpit is completely exposed, and their weaponry can only fire forward.
Even the worst maneuverability numbers for 40k Titans are far superior to an AT-AT. They can at least turn quickly and have weapons that can fire in every direction.
Everything in Star Wars, much like 40K is design to look cool and not for practicality. It's cool to shoot hypen lasers, even though a sub machine gun is better firepower. It's cool to dress your mook in white armor, even though that armor does nothing, even against primitives the size of human children. Trying to analyze such a genre in good faith is impossible. It's whatever the author of that particular story says it is. This is why something like Bablylon 5 is consistent: one main author.
Psienesis wrote: The main difference between an AT-AT and a Titan is that AT-ATs can be fielded in large numbers, and losing one, or a hundred, isn't that big a deal.
Losing a hundred Titans is something the Imperium cannot replace.
It can, just not at insanely quickly. And it depends on what sort of Titan it is, the nature of the losses, the temporal spacing of the losses, and what, if anything, those sacrifices netted the Imperium.
Given that Titans are relics of the Great Crusade and the Golden Age, I don't think the Imperium has any it can afford to lose. The difference being that the Galactic Empire can crank out an AT-AT through droid manufacturing in a matter of weeks, where any Titan the Imperium will build requires centuries.
The turbo-lasers on the AT-AT are at least on par with a Shadowsword or other Titan-killing 40k tank, with a vastly higher rate of fire, which will serve them well against a Titan's Void Shields.
Depending on the battlefield, the AT-AT may also be able to take advantage of terrain that the Titan cannot (AT-AT are tall, but not as tall as the tallest Titans).
As far as quickly turning? The film ESB shows them turning fairly quickly, when Veers' AT-AT turns to target the shield generator. It turns by doing a bit of a side-step maneuver... if it wants to turn left, the left-side legs "step in" (to be under the main body) while the right legs then step out, and it repeats this maneuver until it comes fully about.
It is not as fast as a biped like a Titan, of course, but not as slow as turning a naval battleship, as has been implied ITT. They also, likewise depicted on-screen in ESB, have the ability to adjust the positioning of the legs to permit a limited "torso twist" which, combined with the head's ability to turn, provides essentially a 180 degree firing arc.
Grey Templar wrote: Given that the Galactic Empire's army only numbered a few million soldiers total, at most, I don't think AT-ATs outnumber Titans. Not even close.
According to Wookiepedia:
The Imperial I-class Star Destroyer was a model of Imperial-class Star Destroyer in the service of the Imperial Navy. A wedge-shaped capital ship, it was bristling with weapons emplacements. Its ventral hangar could launch land assault troops, boarding crafts, and TIE fighters. In the heyday of the Empire, its command bridge was staffed by the finest crewmen in the navy.
At first, Star Destroyers were deployed to sectors and systems caught in the aftermath of the Clone Wars, where they would crush any signs of sedition. During the Galactic Civil War the Destroyer's roles changed to hunting down high value Rebel targets and bases. They fought in such battles as the secret mission to Tatooine, Battle of Hoth, and Battle of Endor. At the peak of the Empire, over 25,000 of these ships were in existence.
Thats the Imperial Navy. Which in a galactic setting is going to outnumber ground forces usually. Those complement numbers are only its transport capacity, its not what every star destroyer has at all times.
25,000 Capital ships is also a painfully low number. The Imperium has more warships than that defending Terra alone. Furthermore, the vast bulk of those ships would be tied up maintaining order across the Empire, they couldn't devote more than a handful to any actual war effort(in the EU, this was one reason, albeit not a great one, given that the Rebellion was successful with so few soldiers)
And even if they did, 20 AT-ATs are worthless. A single Warhound could probably take them all out and suffer little to no damage.
It is not as fast as a biped like a Titan, of course, but not as slow as turning a naval battleship, as has been implied ITT. They also, likewise depicted on-screen in ESB, have the ability to adjust the positioning of the legs to permit a limited "torso twist" which, combined with the head's ability to turn, provides essentially a 180 degree firing arc.
So in order to fire beyond 45 degrees, it has to compromise its mobility to brace itself so it can overextend and turn its head to bear. As we saw in the movies, that maneuver took several seconds. Seconds during which time you've already been smacked with a Turbolaser or have just had the Warhound circle completely around to the rear. And the Warhound has been pummeling you the entire time.
The AT-ATs have no shields, so their legs are completely vulnerable to being shot at. The only reason that was never a problem was because Blasters are terrible weapons in general, so instead it took some 1 gauge wire and a harpoon. Titans will simply kneecap every AT-AT they encounter from long range, while also being able to take advantage of cover. Even if AT-AT armor can actually withstand any direct hits, they'll almost certainly get knocked over by the impacts even if they survive. Or the troops inside get turned to jelly.
Grey Templar wrote: Given that the Galactic Empire's army only numbered a few million soldiers total, at most, I don't think AT-ATs outnumber Titans. Not even close.
According to Wookiepedia:
The Imperial I-class Star Destroyer was a model of Imperial-class Star Destroyer in the service of the Imperial Navy. A wedge-shaped capital ship, it was bristling with weapons emplacements. Its ventral hangar could launch land assault troops, boarding crafts, and TIE fighters. In the heyday of the Empire, its command bridge was staffed by the finest crewmen in the navy.
At first, Star Destroyers were deployed to sectors and systems caught in the aftermath of the Clone Wars, where they would crush any signs of sedition. During the Galactic Civil War the Destroyer's roles changed to hunting down high value Rebel targets and bases. They fought in such battles as the secret mission to Tatooine, Battle of Hoth, and Battle of Endor. At the peak of the Empire, over 25,000 of these ships were in existence.
It seems to me the GE is significantly larger than 'a few million soldiers'.
That's only a couple hundred million Stormtroopers total at full complement, still miniscule by the IG's quadrillions. And only 750,000 AT-ATs at full complement, which isn't bad, but consider that every Forge World has an entire Titan Legion, and the sheer number of Forge Worlds in the Imperium.
The "3 million" value is the most commonly cited one, and I believe is derived from the prequel films, which quoted the total strength of the Grand Army of the Republic.
McNinja wrote: It's probably already been mentioned, but the Empire has extremely quick and reliable hyperspace travel. That alone is worth a great deal.
Hyperspace is reliable, but its also very limited. You cannot jump just anywhere. You have to travel along predefined routes, and you have to have Hyperspace routes actually heading to your destination. There are many areas in the SW galaxy where Hyperspace does not exist, or its uncharted, or its so tangled up in knots that you just hop out where you started. Its sort of analogous to the Webway, it is fast and safe, but only if you know your route and have a map. It doesn't go everywhere and if you don't have charts you are jumping blind.
Really, Star Wars Hyperspace travel is only reliable because they've spent thousands and thousands of years mapping out the existing routes. Mapping new routes would take them a huge amount of time, and lots of lives and lost ships.
The Imperium has more warships than that defending Terra alone.
Citation needed.
It is unlikely that the Imperium has 25,000 capital-class vessels in all of space. Sector battle-groups tend to have 5-10 such vessels, and there's a limited number of sectors to consider.
Grey Templar wrote: Nope, no shielding on AT-ATs. They just have relatively thick armor, for Star Wars anyway.
Their design is completely impractical. They're slow, cannot turn even remotely fast, their cockpit is completely exposed, and their weaponry can only fire forward.
Even the worst maneuverability numbers for 40k Titans are far superior to an AT-AT. They can at least turn quickly and have weapons that can fire in every direction.
Depends on what that design is meant to do. I presume the number one priority on nearly every Imperial design is intimidation. There are certainly better ship layouts than a wedge for a Star Destroyer...a perfect sphere would give weapon points FAR better LOS, your shielding would be more effective, etc. But a big ball isn't intimidating.
As far at the AT-AT goes, yes, you have speed (what is it, 60+ kph?) instead of manueverability. But, the speed does give you something, the ability to charge faster than weak units can retreat, and the ability to back up and open the range against better CC units. It can also shoot accurately at full speed with Str D main guns and Str ? secondary guns. It has enough armor to ignore probably anything but Str D itself over most of the hull (neck joint is a weak point).
Personally, I think they would deal with 40k-esque walkers by advancing in formation; so even if an enemy vehicle/squad/etc got "inside" the lead AT-AT, the AT-AT on it's rear flank could still engage those targets. Use classic cavalry formations. 4 AT-ATs arranged in a diamond. Smaller, more manueverable vehicles (AT-STs) to the far flanks and rear.
The tactic to defeat an AT-AT formation would be to target the rear/flank AT-ATs first, which would allow the Stompas/Warhounds/Dreds/etc to take the initial casualties on the charge, close with the front line and use multimeltas/Str D/etc.
Grey Templar wrote: Nope, no shielding on AT-ATs. They just have relatively thick armor, for Star Wars anyway.
Their design is completely impractical. They're slow, cannot turn even remotely fast, their cockpit is completely exposed, and their weaponry can only fire forward.
Even the worst maneuverability numbers for 40k Titans are far superior to an AT-AT. They can at least turn quickly and have weapons that can fire in every direction.
Depends on what that design is meant to do. I presume the number one priority on nearly every Imperial design is intimidation. There are certainly better ship layouts than a wedge for a Star Destroyer...a perfect sphere would give weapon points FAR better LOS, your shielding would be more effective, etc. But a big ball isn't intimidating.
That's no moon, it's not even an intimidating space station
For all the talk of Titans vs AT-ATs... I find it somewhat amusing that nobody brought up the following points:
1. Logistical issues such as deployment. I for one have no idea how Titans are actually deployed. If you read any of the fluff on Titans in general, they all describe how the Titans are +big +armored +dakka, but no comments on how the stupid things are transported from place to place. It goes without saying that because they are +big +armored they need dedicated orbital lift vehicles to deploy, since I'm pretty sure that IoM ships aren't atmospheric travel capable. On the other hand, Star Destroyer class ships have been shown to be atmospheric capable (Acclamator and Venator from Ep2-3)
2. Everything from the #1 (+1big +armored +dakka +quantity) is meaningless if you can't achieve space superiority.
3. One advantage that IoM has over the Galactic Empire is their doctrine of PURGE THE XENOS. There will be no discussion, no hesitation, go straight to EXTERMINATUS, proceed to next system - so I think the deployment of ground troops isn't even really a factor. I have a feeling that the Empire might want to capture facilities intact if possible.
keezus wrote: For all the talk of Titans vs AT-ATs... I find it somewhat amusing that nobody brought up the following points:
1. Logistical issues such as deployment. I for one have no idea how Titans are actually deployed. If you read any of the fluff on Titans in general, they all describe how the Titans are +big +armored +dakka, but no comments on how the stupid things are transported from place to place. It goes without saying that because they are +big +armored they need dedicated orbital lift vehicles to deploy, since I'm pretty sure that IoM ships aren't atmospheric travel capable. On the other hand, Star Destroyer class ships have been shown to be atmospheric capable (Acclamator and Venator from Ep2-3)
2. Everything from the #1 (+1big +armored +dakka +quantity) is meaningless if you can't achieve space superiority.
3. One advantage that IoM has over the Galactic Empire is their doctrine of PURGE THE XENOS. There will be no discussion, no hesitation, go straight to EXTERMINATUS, proceed to next system - so I think the deployment of ground troops isn't even really a factor. I have a feeling that the Empire might want to capture facilities intact if possible.
Some PSI-Titans can teleport to the surface apparently - I think it was mentioned again in one of the Knight Codexes.............. they usually enter the atmosphere on vast conveyors - the fluff seems to vary if these are just transports or the really big Adeptus Mechanicus battle barge equivalents.
Grey Templar wrote: Given that the Galactic Empire's army only numbered a few million soldiers total, at most, I don't think AT-ATs outnumber Titans. Not even close.
And numbers don't matter much when they wouldn't do jack squat to any Titan. They're outmaneuvered and outgunned.
Why would the Empire deploy AT-ATs against larger Titans they couldn't out-fight, when they could just use TIE bombers or the orbiting Star Destroyer that dropped off the AT-ATs?
The Imperium has more warships than that defending Terra alone.
Citation needed.
It is unlikely that the Imperium has 25,000 capital-class vessels in all of space. Sector battle-groups tend to have 5-10 such vessels, and there's a limited number of sectors to consider.
Depends on who is writing it - the Space Wolves alone have something like 200-300 warships........... and that's with only about 1500-2000 marines and not being a Space borne Chapter.....
MeanAss_Demasoni wrote: A blast from a TIE fighter main gun didn't even destroy R2D2 beyond repair, he was fixed up in time for the ceremony in the first movie.
Yeah, the same TIE main gun that can blow apart an X-wing or Y-wing hitting the unshielded rear just pops a few circuits on R2D2. The same blaster pistol that insta-kills Greedo only scorches Luke's leather glove. The same blaster rifles that can blast chunks out of concrete only singes Leia's shoulder.
Apparently the heroes have an Armor Save of 10 and 2+ Invul, or the midichlorians in charge of the force depower any blaster shots headed toward our intrepid heroes.
Well, except for C3PO. Not sure how he missed out, but he walked into the wrong room and got all 4 limbs and head seperated from his torso by a blast.
MeanAss_Demasoni wrote: A blast from a TIE fighter main gun didn't even destroy R2D2 beyond repair, he was fixed up in time for the ceremony in the first movie.
Yeah, the same TIE main gun that can blow apart an X-wing or Y-wing hitting the unshielded rear just pops a few circuits on R2D2. The same blaster pistol that insta-kills Greedo only scorches Luke's leather glove. The same blaster rifles that can blast chunks out of concrete only singes Leia's shoulder.
Apparently the heroes have an Armor Save of 10 and 2+ Invul, or the midichlorians in charge of the force depower any blaster shots headed toward our intrepid heroes.
Well, except for C3PO. Not sure how he missed out, but he walked into the wrong room and got all 4 limbs and head seperated from his torso by a blast.
Plot shields care nothing for reality - they are the best kind of shields
The empire and rebel combined star fighter fleets would be an absolute nightmare for the imperiums titans, and I think numbers alone, the star wars universe is going to easily have air superiority, let alone a good argument that the star wars universe fighters are better than anything the imperium has, the only issue they would have is on the ground air defences which I admit can be formidable....
Star wars capital ships wouldn't hold up to the imperious though, so keeping those star fighters armed, maintained and fuelled is going to be difficult, though hyperspace is infinitely more reliable and faster to initialise than warp travel, so ambushes are going to be back in favour of the star wars universe. An imperium armada turns up on their scanners and they run away, quite fast and quite easily.
It would be an interesting war, but there is absolutely no contest on the ground, the imperium would control all planetary targets in little to no time at all and hold them with ease. The only chance the star wars universe army would have would be to control space superiority and starve the imperium of resources.
Grey Templar wrote: 25,000 Capital ships is also a painfully low number. The Imperium has more warships than that defending Terra alone.
Yeah seriously, only 25000 capital ships IN THE ENTIRE GALAXY is pretty pitifully small. The galaxy is HUGE. That's not even a single capital ship per million worlds.
Grey Templar wrote: 25,000 Capital ships is also a painfully low number. The Imperium has more warships than that defending Terra alone.
Yeah seriously, only 25000 capital ships IN THE ENTIRE GALAXY is pretty pitifully small. The galaxy is HUGE. That's not even a single capital ship per million worlds.
I don't know how many worlds in Star Wars are inhabited, but since defending uninhabited worlds seems pretty pointless, so 25 000 ships might be plenty. -edit- looks like they have a cap-ship for every 2 star systems. Sector <= 50 inhabited systems, sector fleet ~ 24 cap warships, 1600 support ships.
Really, I think any space engagement depends on logistics, ability to concentrate power and communications. Logistics is always an issue IMHO for the IoM since the plot of the GRIMDARK FUTURE WHERE THERE IS ONLY WAR, never talks in detail about supply lines, food and water for the INNUMERABLE SOLDIERS OF THE IMPERIUM. They just concentrate on the ++dakka and the +++men the Imperium has at its disposal... never much talk on how much ammo is needed for the ++dakka and food/water/supplies for the +++men. As ridiculous as it sounds, attrition is also an issue for the IoM should they not win an engagement right away, since the Adeptus Mechanicus is pretty much restricted to burning incense and singing Kumbaya to the machine spirits when faced with any catastrophic damage.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Addendum: According to Warhammer Wikia: You're looking at sector level fleet consisting of ~50-75 capital ships w/ support craft for every 8 million cubic light years of space. Sub-sector being 2-8 systems 10 light radius space (i.e. around 525 cubic light years of space). This would suggest that Star Wars might have substantively heavier fleet density in the populated worlds, and the IoM might have substantively SLOWER reaction time due to the vastness of each sector.
Automatically Appended Next Post: -edit 2: Even the Armageddon Battlefleet suggests that it not number above 75 capital ships and it is defending one the most heavily defended zones in the Imperium.
The Galactic Empire's territory at its peak consisted of some one and a half million member and conquered worlds, as well as sixty-nine million colonies, protectorates and puppet states spread throughout the entire galaxy, stretching from the borders of the Deep Core to at least Wild Space.
The Galactic Empire's territory at its peak consisted of some one and a half million member and conquered worlds, as well as sixty-nine million colonies, protectorates and puppet states spread throughout the entire galaxy, stretching from the borders of the Deep Core to at least Wild Space.
So 1.5 million worlds directly controlled and then another 69 million ancillary worlds under indirect control.
That means there is approximately 1 Star Destroyer for every 2,820 planets.
If we toss those under indirect control that means each Star Destroyer only needs to control 60 planets.
Good info to know!
Using 40k's numbers: Assuming a conservative 2 inhabited worlds per system, and use the maximum of 8 systems per subsector, we have 16 worlds / subsector. A sector is 8 million cubic light years containing15238 subsectors, for 243809 worlds. At max fleet size, you have one cruiser/battlecruiser for every 3250 worlds. Well... so much for the romanticized ideas of fleet density of thousands of warships.
This is only distribution though... in 40k - there's fething 8 segmentums, each containing (Emperor knows how) many sectors...
Looks like based on fleet distribution, you would have the sector fleets separated into subgroups of 1-3 capital ships with escorts / support craft scattered in the hub zones available for redeployment. Realistically, first response in any invasion situation would be one of those sub-groups, if not an even smaller squadron of patrol craft / frigates. IMHO, first contact would likely involve an overwhelming curb-stomp by the attackers just through concentration of strength alone. Both Star Wars and 40k planets of strategic value seem to use a mix of orbital and ground based defensive weaponry (moreso in 40k) and large scale shielding for protection.
Based on the progress of the Tyranid Fleets and the Yuuzhan Vong in Star Wars - the sheer size of the galaxy allows for significant maneuvering space to retreat and regroup. With regards to communications and fleet organization, and somewhat denser fleet distribution (ergo, quicker response times), I think the Empire has moderate advantage in logistics, and 40k has a moderate advantage in firepower.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: The empire and rebel combined star fighter fleets would be an absolute nightmare for the imperiums titans, and I think numbers alone, the star wars universe is going to easily have air superiority, let alone a good argument that the star wars universe fighters are better than anything the imperium has, the only issue they would have is on the ground air defences which I admit can be formidable....
Star wars capital ships wouldn't hold up to the imperious though, so keeping those star fighters armed, maintained and fuelled is going to be difficult, though hyperspace is infinitely more reliable and faster to initialise than warp travel, so ambushes are going to be back in favour of the star wars universe. An imperium armada turns up on their scanners and they run away, quite fast and quite easily.
It would be an interesting war, but there is absolutely no contest on the ground, the imperium would control all planetary targets in little to no time at all and hold them with ease. The only chance the star wars universe army would have would be to control space superiority and starve the imperium of resources.
Why would it be no contest on the ground?
Once we accept that due to the logistics of hyperspace versus warp travel the Empire can mass quickly,giving them a clear advantage at decisive points, we know that orbit will be controlled by the Empire.
Since orbit is controlled by the Empire, they will control where or even if dropships can deploy. The can bombard fixed positions (the largest titans, gun emplacements, etc) with relative impunity.
Given that, we now know that it's not just an Astartes chapter and a few regiments of Militarium against stormtroopers and AT-ATs...it's the stormtroopers and AT-ATs backed up with bombers...bombers which are designed to take out enemy capital ships, space stations, etc. Since the storms and AT-ATs can be picked up and re-dropped as required, they will be the ones dictating when and where ground battles take place. If the Imperium chooses good ground, masses and fortifies it, it gets bombarded from orbit. If they stay in small detachments spread out, the Empire can drop superior forces (since they control orbit).
In other words, the Astartes will have their own tactics being used against them. They can't hop in Thunderhawks and return to orbit to be drop-podded to decisive points, and they can't mass for a heroic stand.
In the weeks or months it will take the Imperium to send reinforcements the battle will be decided, and when they do show up they will drop out of warp into a system which the Empire mined on it's way out.
The marines haven't changed tactics in LITERALLY 10,000 years. I find it hard to believe that they can beat anyone. I don't care what the stupid novels say. The rule of cool does not make for effective fighting forces.
Most of you have probably thought about this a lot already, but allow me to illustrate how unpracitcal and absurd things are in all but the most grounded sci-fi.
In both universes ships have the firepower to obliterate entire armies. So why don't they? Why is there even ground fighting at all except to mop up the enemy? Because a handful of anti-ship guns, which would pale in firepower compared to an enemy ship, keep them at bay? No, that doesn't add up. Really, it's because it's cool to punch a carnifex in the face with a high tech fist, even though you could blow it up from orbit from the safety of a couch. Because it would be boring if the foot soldiers were just there to mop up. And because there'd be no exciting battle reports in white dwarf then.
Again why would titans or any large war machine be of prominent value when those ships should be able to turn them to piles of molten slag at the flick of a button? Answer -because big war machines are cool and because GW and Lucas Arts decided that ships shouldn't dominate them.
Why are particular weapons shown to be inconsistent in their power throughout various screen and book depictions? Because it's artistic licence and because the creator's put less thought into it than the folks analysing it on this thread.
Why do the same creators give figures and facts about these weapons that clearly contradict what we see and read? Because they make things up.
Which universe wins in an all out war? Whichever's creator is writing the story I imagine.
So It's all a load of bollox. Entertaining, detailed, but completely absurd. As much as it can be fun to discuss a Star Destroyer and a strike cruiser mashing it out, I believe it's a waste of time getting into technicalities.
Alarak in SCII: LotV even questions why the protoss didn't nuke all the Zerg from orbit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
thegreatchimp wrote: Most of you have probably thought about this a lot already, but allow me to illustrate how unpracitcal and absurd things are in all but the most grounded sci-fi.
In both universes ships have the firepower to obliterate entire armies. So why don't they? Why is there even ground fighting at all except to mop up the enemy? Becasue a handful of anti-ship guns, which would pale in firepower compared to an enemy ship, keep them at bay? No, that doesn't add up. Really, it's because it's cool to punch a carnifex in the face with a high tech fist, even though you could blow it up from orbit from the safety of his couch. Because it would be boring if the foot soldiers were just there to mop up. And because there'd be no exciting battle reports in white dwarf then.
Again why would titans or any large war machine be of prominent value when those ships should be able to turn them to piles of molten slag at the flick of a button? Answer -because big war machines are cool and because GW and Lucas Arts decided that ships shou;dn't dominate them.
Why are particular weapons shown to be inconsistent in their power throughout various screen and book depictions. Because it's artistic licence and because the creator's didn't put too much thought into it.
Why do the same creators give figures and facts about these weapons that clearly contradict what we see and read. Because they make things up.
Which universe wins in an all out war? Whichever's creator is writing the story I imagine.
So It's all a load of bollox. Entertaining, detailed, but completely absurd. As much as it can be fun to discuss a Star Destroyer and a strike cruiser mashing it out, I believe it's a waste of time getting into technicalities.
Season's Greetings
Chimp
Or we can say the Shadows won despite not being a choice. Because they are that badass.
The Galactic Empire's territory at its peak consisted of some one and a half million member and conquered worlds, as well as sixty-nine million colonies, protectorates and puppet states spread throughout the entire galaxy, stretching from the borders of the Deep Core to at least Wild Space.
So 1.5 million worlds directly controlled and then another 69 million ancillary worlds under indirect control.
That means there is approximately 1 Star Destroyer for every 2,820 planets.
If we toss those under indirect control that means each Star Destroyer only needs to control 60 planets.
Good info to know!
Using 40k's numbers: Assuming a conservative 2 inhabited worlds per system, and use the maximum of 8 systems per subsector, we have 16 worlds / subsector. A sector is 8 million cubic light years containing15238 subsectors, for 243809 worlds. At max fleet size, you have one cruiser/battlecruiser for every 3250 worlds. Well... so much for the romanticized ideas of fleet density of thousands of warships.
This is only distribution though... in 40k - there's fething 8 segmentums, each containing (Emperor knows how) many sectors...
Looks like based on fleet distribution, you would have the sector fleets separated into subgroups of 1-3 capital ships with escorts / support craft scattered in the hub zones available for redeployment. Realistically, first response in any invasion situation would be one of those sub-groups, if not an even smaller squadron of patrol craft / frigates. IMHO, first contact would likely involve an overwhelming curb-stomp by the attackers just through concentration of strength alone. Both Star Wars and 40k planets of strategic value seem to use a mix of orbital and ground based defensive weaponry (moreso in 40k) and large scale shielding for protection.
Based on the progress of the Tyranid Fleets and the Yuuzhan Vong in Star Wars - the sheer size of the galaxy allows for significant maneuvering space to retreat and regroup. With regards to communications and fleet organization, and somewhat denser fleet distribution (ergo, quicker response times), I think the Empire has moderate advantage in logistics, and 40k has a moderate advantage in firepower.
At best, 40k is going to have an average of 1 inhabited world per system.
Sectors are built based on a set measurement of space. Each sector is a cube approximately 200 lightyears x 200 lightyears.
We don't have any concrete numbers for 40k ship numbers, but each Battlefleet is said to consist of between 50 and 75 ships on average. And each protects a Sector.
The Milky Way is approximately 120,000 light years in diameter. Which means you could, at maximum density, be 600 sectors wide and 600 sectors deep. or 360 thousand sectors.
Now the Imperium doesn't control the entire galaxy or have it all divided into sectors. But given this map http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Segmentum. They do have a good chunk of it mapped out.
So lets assume the Imperium has only 1/4 the possible sectors you could fit in the galaxy. 90 thousand sectors, protected by 90 thousand battlefleets.
90 thousand battlefleets, at 50-75 ships each(on average) means the Imperium has between 4.5 and 6.75 million ships total.
If the ratio of escorts to cruisers to battleships is 1/2 to 1/3 to 1/6, that means that at lowest estimations the Imperium has 2.25 million Escorts, 1.5 million cruisers, and 750,000 Battleships.
The Imperium doesn't even have a quarter of the galaxy. It has a million worlds out of potentially-billions (there's 100 billion stars in the Milky Way).
Psienesis wrote: The Imperium doesn't even have a quarter of the galaxy. It has a million worlds out of potentially-billions (there's 100 billion stars in the Milky Way).
A million habitable worlds; the number of dead rocks is far higher. If one looks at a 2-dimensional map of the Milky Way, the Imperium appears to cover far more.
Yes, it claims that much territory, but within it are countless worlds controlled, contested, or owned outright by xenos, chaos, rebels, or those who have simply never heard of the Imperium.
MeanAss_Demasoni wrote: A blast from a TIE fighter main gun didn't even destroy R2D2 beyond repair, he was fixed up in time for the ceremony in the first movie.
Yeah, the same TIE main gun that can blow apart an X-wing or Y-wing hitting the unshielded rear just pops a few circuits on R2D2.
I mean they have 1/4 of the potential sectors the galaxy could hold(a sector is a roughly standardized area of space). That doesn't mean they own all the stars in those sectors or that they all have habitable worlds. Just that 1/4 of possible sectors have an Imperial presence to warrant a battlefleet.
Melissia wrote: Yeah seriously, only 25000 capital ships IN THE ENTIRE GALAXY is pretty pitifully small. The galaxy is HUGE. That's not even a single capital ship per million worlds.
It's a small number, but remember that hyperspace allows a fleet to cross the galaxy in a matter of hours, days at most. And the Star Wars galaxy is largely at peace, so most of those 25,000 ships can be deployed to fight in a region with an active war while still being able to quickly respond to a crisis on the other side of the galaxy if necessary. The Empire simply doesn't need the Imperium's vast horde of ships because they don't have to put independent fleets in every corner of the galaxy to compensate for the fact that there are millions of separate wars happening and reinforcements might not arrive for centuries.
MeanAss_Demasoni wrote: A blast from a TIE fighter main gun didn't even destroy R2D2 beyond repair, he was fixed up in time for the ceremony in the first movie.
The obvious conclusion, outside of character shields, is that the shot was mostly stopped by the x-wing's shields and only a tiny percentage of it managed to burn through and hit R2-D2.
Martel732 wrote: The marines haven't changed tactics in LITERALLY 10,000 years. I find it hard to believe that they can beat anyone. I don't care what the stupid novels say. The rule of cool does not make for effective fighting forces.
Well, they can beat Orks, Eldar, Tyranids and other groups who haven't changed tactics in 10,000 years, either.
Which is the second insurmountable problem for the IoM (cross-galaxy travel in hours versus months is the other).
The Empire built 25,000 Star Destroyers, a few SSDs and 2 Death Stars in 20 years. Not sure how long it takes a forge world to turn out a unit of, say Baneblades (by the time the techs are done praying to the machine gods over every circuit, bolt and doo-dad) and they have, quite literally, forgotten how to build actually strategic items like battlecruisers. Sure, the Astartes alone have 3-4,000 of them, but they are never getting any more. If they exchange 1 for 1 with the Empire over the course of a year, the Astartes' entire fleet has been wiped out and the Empire has replaced 1,000 of their losses. Every 10 years (on average) the Empire builds a planet-killing Death Star that can hyperspace from system to system. "Which chapter's homeworld are we going to destroy today? Oh, how about the space wolves? They have a fleet with 1,000 ships. Yeah, but only a few battlecruisers...we Admiral Ackbar'ed them a couple of times with a fleet of Star Detroyers and now they don't have any. Okay, engage the hyperdrive. <6 hours later> Okay, we're at Fenris. Fire at will. <insert sound of blowing up Fenris with one shot>. Hey, we detect life on those other planets. Should we notify General Poobah to ready his AT-AT transporters? No, the superlaser will be recharged in an hour. Hey, won't these Imperium folks find out there's dust cloud where Fenris used to be? Not for a year or so. They don't believe in talking on a daily basis. They never had a boss who could choke you to death on videoconference if you screwed up, did they? Not in their wildest dreams. Anyways, in a year we will have wiped out a third of their homeworlds, even stopping for lunch. We will have have wiped out a third of the Astartes in a year? No, more like half. We will have destroyed all their fleet based chapters by then, too. Our losses? 10%, with 30% of those reconstituted. Acceptable."
Psienesis wrote: I believe one of Luke's lines shortly before that shot lands is to tell R2 to stabilize that rear deflector shield.
I thought it was a rear stabilizer. The overall attack leader (can't remember if it was Red or Gold) directed the group to set shields double front, (pulling shield power from the rear) as they would need the shielding against tubolasers on their approach. Gold somebody (one of the Y-wing pilots) told them to stabilize rear deflectors when the turbolaser fire stopped (knew TIEs were inbound). So, after pulling shield power back to the rear, they would have less overall shielding after facing some turbolaser fire. I would presume the Y-wings would have all their power distributed to shields and engines (mostly to engines), while the X-wings would have to split it three ways, mostly to their engines and guns.
So, I would presume Luke didn't have much, if any rear shielding by the time Vader popped him. Hence, my view that the midichlorians intervened to save Luke (as that shot would have normally gone right through R2's dome and into the back of Luke's canopy) so he could become a Jedi and redeem Anakin/Vader.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: "Well, they can beat Orks, Eldar, Tyranids and other groups who haven't changed tactics in 10,000 years, either.
"
If that's true, then those groups couldn't beat anyone, either.
Concur, which is why they'll be locked in a 6-way stalemate until the last Loyalist, Ork, Heretic, Eldar, Necron and Dark Eldar kill each other using a 10,000+ year old piece of gear. Leaving everything to the Tau, who will have probably developed Str D disintegrator rifles and WS6 targeting as standard infantry gear in the next hundred years. Or 8th edition.
Grey Templar wrote: I mean they have 1/4 of the potential sectors the galaxy could hold(a sector is a roughly standardized area of space). That doesn't mean they own all the stars in those sectors or that they all have habitable worlds. Just that 1/4 of possible sectors have an Imperial presence to warrant a battlefleet.
It doesn't matter that the Imperium has more ships. The issue here is that they are WAY more spread out than the Empire, meaning that reaction times are terrible, as the sub-sector sized areas are stated as being "maximum size that they can reasonably patrol". Ergo, once you smash the forces in a single sub-sector - if they can do it fast enough, the Imperium will never be able to mass forces fast enough to counter-attack. In 40k the IoM has always had enough durability in its forces to drag the fight out long enough for reinforcements to arrive. In the cases where it can't, the enemy always manages to blitzkrieg deep into IoM territory until it hits a fortress world, or is intercepted by a specially formed battlefleet task-force.
Regarding unchanged tactics: Unsure that tactics need to be changed, if they are clearly working as intended: Three of the factions listed as not-changing-tactics are:
Eldar: These guys are a dying race, and subscribe to a doctrine of indirect, asymetric / information warfare. I'd say its working pretty good considering that they are immeasurably outnumbered by EVERYTHING that wants to kill them. The fact that they're not extinct after 10k years of war would suggest they are doing something right.
Tyranids: These guys haven't even begun to properly invade the IoM. Considering their home galaxy came out second best against their unchanging tactics, and the fact that their regular tactics, employed by their scouting and reconnaissance forces are pretty much giving the IoM all it can handle... I'd say these guys are probably playing to their strengths as well.
Orks: TAKTIKS R FOR HUMIES. ORKSES KRUMP DA ENEMIES WITH KUNNING AND STRENGTH... (I always point to the IoM's inability to beat the disorganized, technologically inferior, and randomly traveling Ork warbands as the ultimate evidence that the IoM would struggle against organized threat. (I'm discounting Chaos as an organized threat, since they seem to be playing a huge joke on their followers: being perfectly OK letting Abbadon attempt the same thing over-and-over again. What... Black Crusades 1-12 didn't work? 13th time the charm!)
Orks: TAKTIKS R FOR HUMIES. ORKSES KRUMP DA ENEMIES WITH KUNNING AND STRENGTH... (I always point to the IoM's inability to beat the disorganized, technologically inferior, and randomly traveling Ork warbands as the ultimate evidence that the IoM would struggle against organized threat. (I'm discounting Chaos as an organized threat, since they seem to be playing a huge joke on their followers: being perfectly OK letting Abbadon attempt the same thing over-and-over again. What... Black Crusades 1-12 didn't work? 13th time the charm!)
Does that mean that the Roman legion is terrible, as they eventually lost against the barbarian hordes? What about today's conventional military against guerilla insurgent tactics? Would they suffer against an organised conventional force?
Never underestimate the effectiveness of numbers and bloodlust, and unexpected maneuvers.
13 tries is pretty laughable, but then again, Cadia is pretty well fortified.
Martel732 wrote: The marines haven't changed tactics in LITERALLY 10,000 years. I find it hard to believe that they can beat anyone. I don't care what the stupid novels say. The rule of cool does not make for effective fighting forces.
Well, they can beat Orks, Eldar, Tyranids and other groups who haven't changed tactics in 10,000 years, either.
Which is the second insurmountable problem for the IoM (cross-galaxy travel in hours versus months is the other).
The Empire built 25,000 Star Destroyers, a few SSDs and 2 Death Stars in 20 years. Not sure how long it takes a forge world to turn out a unit of, say Baneblades (by the time the techs are done praying to the machine gods over every circuit, bolt and doo-dad) and they have, quite literally, forgotten how to build actually strategic items like battlecruisers. Sure, the Astartes alone have 3-4,000 of them, but they are never getting any more. If they exchange 1 for 1 with the Empire over the course of a year, the Astartes' entire fleet has been wiped out and the Empire has replaced 1,000 of their losses. Every 10 years (on average) the Empire builds a planet-killing Death Star that can hyperspace from system to system. "Which chapter's homeworld are we going to destroy today? Oh, how about the space wolves? They have a fleet with 1,000 ships. Yeah, but only a few battlecruisers...we Admiral Ackbar'ed them a couple of times with a fleet of Star Detroyers and now they don't have any. Okay, engage the hyperdrive. <6 hours later> Okay, we're at Fenris. Fire at will. <insert sound of blowing up Fenris with one shot>. Hey, we detect life on those other planets. Should we notify General Poobah to ready his AT-AT transporters? No, the superlaser will be recharged in an hour. Hey, won't these Imperium folks find out there's dust cloud where Fenris used to be? Not for a year or so. They don't believe in talking on a daily basis. They never had a boss who could choke you to death on videoconference if you screwed up, did they? Not in their wildest dreams. Anyways, in a year we will have wiped out a third of their homeworlds, even stopping for lunch. We will have have wiped out a third of the Astartes in a year? No, more like half. We will have destroyed all their fleet based chapters by then, too. Our losses? 10%, with 30% of those reconstituted. Acceptable."
It takes a few years to build a Capital Class warship - dependant on the type and the resources - at least one feral world helped build an entire Battlecruiser in the fairly recent Gothic wars.
The Mechanicus can and do build warships - they have absolutely not forgotten how to do so - some Space Marine Chapters can do the same - so yeah they can get more. The mechanicus itself has its own powerful fleets ranging for hunter killers (frigates) to battlebarge and bigger - they also have planet destroying weapons. In fact all races do............
The entire resources of the Galactic Empire (in peacetime), managed to build one and nearly build a second Death Star whilst failing to deal with a small rebel force.
The rest of the post is quite amusing
Oh, how about the space wolves? They have a fleet with 1,000 ships. Yeah, but only a few battlecruisers
well not that many ships - about 200-300 I would say and two massive star forts.
Hey, won't these Imperium folks find out there's dust cloud where Fenris used to be? Not for a year or so. They don't believe in talking on a daily basis.
Astropaths say hello. The Imperium can send very fast messages - now actually acting on it - that depends on the plot etc.............
They never had a boss who could choke you to death on videoconference if you screwed up, did they? Not in their wildest dreams.
Er They really do..............
As others have said - you really can't compare universes - they both operate in their own universes with their own rules of cool.
Then a Culture Mind merely disproves the existence of both realities and they both disappear...........
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Does that mean that the Roman legion is terrible, as they eventually lost against the barbarian hordes?
What about today's conventional military against guerilla insurgent tactics? Would they suffer against an organised conventional force.
To be fair, the Legions eventually lost more-so due to political and economic reasons than military ones, just as I'm sure the IoM is constrained by bureaucracy, superstition and logistical problems. While the IoM has the power to curbstomp, it ranges from being somewhat disadvantaged to severely limited in many non-firepower aspects.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Does that mean that the Roman legion is terrible, as they eventually lost against the barbarian hordes? What about today's conventional military against guerilla insurgent tactics? Would they suffer against an organised conventional force.
To be fair, the Legions eventually lost more-so due to political and economic reasons than military ones, just as I'm sure the IoM is constrained by bureaucracy, superstition and logistical problems. While the IoM has the power to curbstomp, it ranges from being somewhat disadvantaged to severely limited in many non-firepower aspects.
There were still military engagements that the Roman Legion lost. Teutoberg forest comes to mind. Also, the Orks aren't as simplistic as you think. Whilst they aren't tactical geniuses, they still understand the effectiveness of ambushes.
Did a quick skim re: Teutoberg Forest. Defeat at Teutoberg Forest seems to have hinged on anti-Roman leadership having Roman education, citizenship and had infiltrated the Roman chain of command. While it was a serious defeat at the height of Rome's power, I'm not sure that its exactly illustrative of how Rome's defeats are usually authored, nor do I think that this occurred on a regular basis.
Regarding Ork Strategy and Kunnin'. There are a multitude of Orks in the galaxy. The proportion of Warbosses of exceptional ability vs. your run of the mill warband is few and far between. The Orks in general do not succumb willingly to chain of kommand - usually the biggest 'uns are the bosses. It takes an Ork of exceptional Size and Kunnin' to survive the assassination attempts of the big 'uns to become the boss of a Waaagh. Once in a while, a Warboss of exceptional ability will form a Waaaagh of note. Even Gazzgkhul, who's considered the penultimate boss abandoned his siege of Armageddon out of boredom!
The fact of the matter is that the Eldar method of redirecting the Waaaghs is much more effective than the IoM's method of facing them head-on. In fact, the best method of controlling the Orks is by redirecting the Waaaghs onto one another or assassinating the bosses of great ability.
It takes a few years to build a Capital Class warship - dependant on the type and the resources - at least one feral world helped build an entire Battlecruiser in the fairly recent Gothic wars.
The Mechanicus can and do build warships - they have absolutely not forgotten how to do so - some Space Marine Chapters can do the same - so yeah they can get more. The mechanicus itself has its own powerful fleets ranging for hunter killers (frigates) to battlebarge and bigger - they also have planet destroying weapons. In fact all races do............
The entire resources of the Galactic Empire (in peacetime), managed to build one and nearly build a second Death Star whilst failing to deal with a small rebel force.
The rest of the post is quite amusing
So, in the time it takes the mechanicus to build one battlecruiser for a Chapter, the Empire cranks out 5,000. Not sure the build time on deathstars after they got the bugs worked out on their prototypes.
Yeah, I got it, astropaths can communicate instantly as well. The point was, just because the IoM can do something, doesn't mean they actually do so. That they have Crusades, companies, etc off on their own for a year plus incommunicado. Part of the grimdark thing, I guess, but when a Chapter has an entire Company out of contact for a year, nothing is thought about it...they are off doing the Emporer's Will, after all. Scale it up...the IoM has 1,000 +/- Chapters at any given time, part of the fluff is they can't keep track of all of them. Some vanish or turn to Chaos and nobody knows, because nobody bothers to check, the records detailing the Chapter's existence are destroyed, etc. I suppose using the SW as an example was a little extreme, but point is, given the IoM's whatever-we-want-to-call-it regarding commo and coordination, and warp versus hyperspace travel times, they have some serious issues.
Same with planet destroying weapons. Sure, everyone has them. Only one, though, can move them from system to system in a matter of hours versus months. So, sure. over a year-long war the Empire will lose a few planets. The IoM will lose hundreds. In a year. I grant the 40K world is dark, and worlds, chapters, etc are lost regularly, but the IoM isn't losing a significant planet (like a forge world, Chapter homeworld, etc) every day.
The whole point about the Empire not taking out the small rebellion is that the Empire never took it seriously. The Empire didn't show up to Yavin with at least a couple of frigates and a SD to provide a screen. They hit Hoth with a single fleet, figure 6 or so SDs? They had a larger fleet at the second deathstar, but not a big one. A SSD and couple dozen or so SDs? Every time they are going to "crush the rebellion", they bring a tiny fraction of their power. Which, I suppose, is the counter point to the IoM having it's own issues. I'd think the Empire would have a fleet or two get waxed before they figured things out.
Same with planet destroying weapons. Sure, everyone has them. Only one, though, can move them from system to system in a matter of hours versus months. So, sure. over a year-long war the Empire will lose a few planets. The IoM will lose hundreds. In a year. I grant the 40K world is dark, and worlds, chapters, etc are lost regularly, but the IoM isn't losing a significant planet (like a forge world, Chapter homeworld, etc) every day.
Wrong. The Death Star destroys a few worlds before a huge Imperial fleet shows up and destroys it. Its huge and cumbersome, it would get destroyed very quickly and the Empire could never recover from a loss like that.
The main issues really root back to politically correct/ feel good restriction when the creators of Star wars wrote the universe. The IoM doesn't seem to suffer from this because, warhammer was written with a gritty mindset.
I don't think the star wars universe stands a chance in an actual war vs many factions of the warhammer universe; SW is simply not written that way.
Grey Templar wrote: Wrong. The Death Star destroys a few worlds before a huge Imperial fleet shows up and destroys it. Its huge and cumbersome, it would get destroyed very quickly and the Empire could never recover from a loss like that.
The Death Star has a hyperdrive. It is as mobile as any Star Destroyer.
Same with planet destroying weapons. Sure, everyone has them. Only one, though, can move them from system to system in a matter of hours versus months. So, sure. over a year-long war the Empire will lose a few planets. The IoM will lose hundreds. In a year. I grant the 40K world is dark, and worlds, chapters, etc are lost regularly, but the IoM isn't losing a significant planet (like a forge world, Chapter homeworld, etc) every day.
Wrong. The Death Star destroys a few worlds before a huge Imperial fleet shows up and destroys it. Its huge and cumbersome, it would get destroyed very quickly and the Empire could never recover from a loss like that.
It took the loss of two Death Stars and more importantly Emperor Palpatine for the empire to splinter, but not completely fall.
Spoiler:
Hell, it sounds like they have a far more powerful super weapon now on the range of a Tau star burster.
It doesn't matter how far you travel with a hyperdrive, it always takes 1d6 days multiplied by your hyperdrive rating. The Death Star only has an x4 Hyperdrive, A Star Destroyer has a x2 Hyperdrive (so contrary to Perry's estimations, it actually takes them between two and twelve days to reach the destination, not a handful of hours).
It doesn't matter how far you travel with a hyperdrive, it always takes 1d6 days multiplied by your hyperdrive rating. The Death Star only has an x4 Hyperdrive, A Star Destroyer has a x2 Hyperdrive (so contrary to Perry's estimations, it actually takes them between two and twelve days to reach the destination, not a handful of hours).
I would rephrase that to near planetary, stupid gravity wells. And to be fair, every FTL drive goes screwy too close to a gravity well, even 40k's Warp Drives have their own complications there.
I was more referring to the fact that it takes a SW hyperdrive the same amount of time to travel between, for example, Earth and Pluto as it would for the same hyperdrive to travel between Earth and Coruscant.
This makes it singularly useless when calculating a ship's combat manoeuvrability, because if a Star Destroyer attempted a Picard Maneuver, it wouldn't reappear for at least two days even though it was only travelling 100 metres.
Then you don't maneuver in-system. You drop out of hyperspace, destroy a planet, and jump back into hyperspace to go destroy the next one.
It doesn't matter how far you travel with a hyperdrive, it always takes 1d6 days multiplied by your hyperdrive rating. The Death Star only has an x4 Hyperdrive, A Star Destroyer has a x2 Hyperdrive (so contrary to Perry's estimations, it actually takes them between two and twelve days to reach the destination, not a handful of hours).
Game mechanics =/= canon. Canon evidence from the films is that hyperspace travel is a matter of hours, maybe a day or so for an exceptionally long trip. And that's being really generous to 40k. If you want to take the high-end numbers a drug smuggler with a half-broken ship is able to go from a middle-of-nowhere planet to an important core world in a matter of minutes.
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Furyou Miko wrote: if a Star Destroyer attempted a Picard Maneuver, it wouldn't reappear for at least two days even though it was only travelling 100 metres.
Canon evidence disagrees with you. The rebel fleet jumps to Endor in the time it takes the rebel ground troops to hike a fairly short distance to the back door of the bunker. So please don't cite obviously incorrect game mechanics again.
Furyou Miko wrote: I was more referring to the fact that it takes a SW hyperdrive the same amount of time to travel between, for example, Earth and Pluto as it would for the same hyperdrive to travel between Earth and Coruscant.
This makes it singularly useless when calculating a ship's combat manoeuvrability, because if a Star Destroyer attempted a Picard Maneuver, it wouldn't reappear for at least two days even though it was only travelling 100 metres.
I wouldn't rely on RPG rules as they have been notoriously wrong in the past.
Canon evidence disagrees with you. The rebel fleet jumps to Endor in the time it takes the rebel ground troops to hike a fairly short distance to the back door of the bunker. So please don't cite obviously incorrect game mechanics again.
If hyperdrives are that fast, how did Luke manage to go through enough Jedi training on Dagobah to go from "in danger of killing himself switching his saber on" to "can last ten minutes duelling the greatest swordsman since Mace Windu" in the time it took the Falcon to get from the asteroid field to Bespin?
Canon evidence disagrees with you. The rebel fleet jumps to Endor in the time it takes the rebel ground troops to hike a fairly short distance to the back door of the bunker. So please don't cite obviously incorrect game mechanics again.
If hyperdrives are that fast, how did Luke manage to go through enough Jedi training on Dagobah to go from "in danger of killing himself switching his saber on" to "can last ten minutes duelling the greatest swordsman since Mace Windu" in the time it took the Falcon to get from the asteroid field to Bespin?
The trip most likely took a few hours (by the note they started to play Dejarik*) to at most one day as they didn't know each other that well, and the Falcon is too small not to interact with the crew.
Furyou Miko wrote: If hyperdrives are that fast, how did Luke manage to go through enough Jedi training on Dagobah to go from "in danger of killing himself switching his saber on" to "can last ten minutes duelling the greatest swordsman since Mace Windu" in the time it took the Falcon to get from the asteroid field to Bespin?
Remember the whole "our hyperdrive isn't working" thing? It was kind of a major plot point.
Furyou Miko wrote: If hyperdrives are that fast, how did Luke manage to go through enough Jedi training on Dagobah to go from "in danger of killing himself switching his saber on" to "can last ten minutes duelling the greatest swordsman since Mace Windu" in the time it took the Falcon to get from the asteroid field to Bespin?
Remember the whole "our hyperdrive isn't working" thing? It was kind of a major plot point.
Hence going to Bespin. It was close enough for subluminal speeds, and Han was friends with the guy in charge.
Same with planet destroying weapons. Sure, everyone has them. Only one, though, can move them from system to system in a matter of hours versus months. So, sure. over a year-long war the Empire will lose a few planets. The IoM will lose hundreds. In a year. I grant the 40K world is dark, and worlds, chapters, etc are lost regularly, but the IoM isn't losing a significant planet (like a forge world, Chapter homeworld, etc) every day.
Wrong. The Death Star destroys a few worlds before a huge Imperial fleet shows up and destroys it. Its huge and cumbersome, it would get destroyed very quickly and the Empire could never recover from a loss like that.
Except they did? They were half-finished (and had full functionality) of a second Death Star within a decade of the first one being blown up. That fully-functional battlestation would be wiping battle-barges and Gothic-class cruisers out of the sky like bugs from a windshield, because when a 40k capital ship explodes, it tends to damage (or destroy) other ships near it when its plasma reactor and/or Warp Drive blows.
Same with planet destroying weapons. Sure, everyone has them. Only one, though, can move them from system to system in a matter of hours versus months. So, sure. over a year-long war the Empire will lose a few planets. The IoM will lose hundreds. In a year. I grant the 40K world is dark, and worlds, chapters, etc are lost regularly, but the IoM isn't losing a significant planet (like a forge world, Chapter homeworld, etc) every day.
Wrong. The Death Star destroys a few worlds before a huge Imperial fleet shows up and destroys it. Its huge and cumbersome, it would get destroyed very quickly and the Empire could never recover from a loss like that.
Except they did? They were half-finished (and had full functionality) of a second Death Star within a decade of the first one being blown up. That fully-functional battlestation would be wiping battle-barges and Gothic-class cruisers out of the sky like bugs from a windshield, because when a 40k capital ship explodes, it tends to damage (or destroy) other ships near it when its plasma reactor and/or Warp Drive blows.
Not even a decade. Return of the Jedi is 4 years after A New Hope.
Except they did? They were half-finished (and had full functionality) of a second Death Star within a decade of the first one being blown up. That fully-functional battlestation would be wiping battle-barges and Gothic-class cruisers out of the sky like bugs from a windshield, because when a 40k capital ship explodes, it tends to damage (or destroy) other ships near it when its plasma reactor and/or Warp Drive blows.
I suppose I should clarify they'd never recover while also engaged in total war along the entirety of their border. They could recover if they were only fighting a small disparate force of rebels who are little more than an annoyance in the grand scheme of things, not another galaxy spanning empire which horrendously outnumbers them in both men and material.
If the Empire manages to make a 40k ship explode that means whatever fleet they had engaged with that ship also gets annhilated. The Star Wars ships will be at danger close ranges due to the pathetic ranges of their weaponry if that is the case. Meaning their ships have zero chance of surviving such an event. And the Imperium can afford to lose ships, Star Wars cannot.
Or better yet, we'll get to find out what happens to a Force User when they get thrown in to the Warp, if one of those ships detonates its warp engines in a self-sacrifice maneuver.
Grey Templar wrote: I suppose I should clarify they'd never recover while also engaged in total war along the entirety of their border. They could recover if they were only fighting a small disparate force of rebels who are little more than an annoyance in the grand scheme of things, not another galaxy spanning empire which horrendously outnumbers them in both men and material.
With respect. You are assuming that the IoM has sufficient coordination and planning to simultaneously assault the entirety of the Empire's galactic border. There are a number of prior posts in this thread that talk about how much space is actually empty and the enormous distances we are talking about. Both sides have the capability to trade territory for time, and IMHO winning the engagement relies entirely on force concentration, communications and logistics. The Empire definitely has the stronger reconnaissance arm. Its access to small hypderdrive equipped craft and potentially legions of probe droids should, in theory let it map enemy territory and identify key worlds in a way that the IoM can not match.
Grey Templar wrote: If the Empire manages to make a 40k ship explode that means whatever fleet they had engaged with that ship also gets annhilated. The Star Wars ships will be at danger close ranges due to the pathetic ranges of their weaponry if that is the case. Meaning their ships have zero chance of surviving such an event. And the Imperium can afford to lose ships, Star Wars cannot.
I am interested to better understand the lore on which you base this assertion. What is the expected yield of a reactor detonation? What's the damage radius? On what basis do you make the claim that the reactor overload will automatically destroy all enemy ships within the engagement zone? Does this reactor overload also destroy all friendly ships? Is the difference in durability 10x? 100x? 1000x+?
I believe the assertion that the Imperium can afford to lose ships is false. Its been oft stated that battlecruiser class ships are priceless and depending on pattern, may be impossible to replace. Example: The Apocalypse-class Battleship is a rare but extremely powerful Battleship currently in service to the Imperial Navy. The Apocalypse-class is no longer produced at Adeptus Mechanicus Forge World shipyards due to the aging design and lost technical specifications over the millennia. The vessels now in service with the Imperial Navy have either been in service since they were built or were recovered as Space Hulks and retrofitted back into working order so as to continue the fight for the Imperium. The main issue with the IoM is that production is entirely tied to specific Forgeworlds due to the specialized facilities required. While major facilities are needed in Star Wars as well, they are not nearly so restrictive.
believe the assertion that the Imperium can afford to lose ships is false. Its been oft stated that battlecruiser class ships are priceless and depending on pattern, may be impossible to replace. Example: The Apocalypse-class Battleship is a rare but extremely powerful Battleship currently in service to the Imperial Navy. The Apocalypse-class is no longer produced at Adeptus Mechanicus Forge World shipyards due to the aging design and lost technical specifications over the millennia. The vessels now in service with the Imperial Navy have either been in service since they were built or were recovered as Space Hulks and retrofitted back into working order so as to continue the fight for the Imperium. The main issue with the IoM is that production is entirely tied to specific Forgeworlds due to the specialized facilities required. While major facilities are needed in Star Wars as well, they are not nearly so restrictive.
Specific classes of vessel are no longer produced - either becuase they can't or won't - some classes are apparently inherently much easier to be corrupted.
They can build starships in quite a few places - including Forgeworlds.
I'd love to see a proper ground /space battle with roughly even forces- back in the day we heve played a few BFG games with Trek and Star Wars fleet versus various 40k fleets - greta fun
Plus there are the 40k Star Wars Codexes out there
Same with planet destroying weapons. Sure, everyone has them. Only one, though, can move them from system to system in a matter of hours versus months. So, sure. over a year-long war the Empire will lose a few planets. The IoM will lose hundreds. In a year. I grant the 40K world is dark, and worlds, chapters, etc are lost regularly, but the IoM isn't losing a significant planet (like a forge world, Chapter homeworld, etc) every day.
Wrong. The Death Star destroys a few worlds before a huge Imperial fleet shows up and destroys it. Its huge and cumbersome, it would get destroyed very quickly and the Empire could never recover from a loss like that.
Except they did? They were half-finished (and had full functionality) of a second Death Star within a decade of the first one being blown up. That fully-functional battlestation would be wiping battle-barges and Gothic-class cruisers out of the sky like bugs from a windshield, because when a 40k capital ship explodes, it tends to damage (or destroy) other ships near it when its plasma reactor and/or Warp Drive blows.
Not just that, it wasn't that long. I expect the Empire follows the rule of government procurement for military systems "why buy just one once your R&D is a sunk cost?" Deathstar 1 was a test bed. Hence, the Emporer himself not aboard. He was only at Deathstar 2 to help turn Luke. It took the Rebellion years to find Deathstar 2. Why wouldn't they have more?
Same with planet destroying weapons. Sure, everyone has them. Only one, though, can move them from system to system in a matter of hours versus months. So, sure. over a year-long war the Empire will lose a few planets. The IoM will lose hundreds. In a year. I grant the 40K world is dark, and worlds, chapters, etc are lost regularly, but the IoM isn't losing a significant planet (like a forge world, Chapter homeworld, etc) every day.
Wrong. The Death Star destroys a few worlds before a huge Imperial fleet shows up and destroys it. Its huge and cumbersome, it would get destroyed very quickly and the Empire could never recover from a loss like that.
Except they did? They were half-finished (and had full functionality) of a second Death Star within a decade of the first one being blown up. That fully-functional battlestation would be wiping battle-barges and Gothic-class cruisers out of the sky like bugs from a windshield, because when a 40k capital ship explodes, it tends to damage (or destroy) other ships near it when its plasma reactor and/or Warp Drive blows.
Not just that, it wasn't that long. I expect the Empire follows the rule of government procurement for military systems "why buy just one once your R&D is a sunk cost?" Deathstar 1 was a test bed. Hence, the Emporer himself not aboard. He was only at Deathstar 2 to help turn Luke. It took the Rebellion years to find Deathstar 2. Why wouldn't they have more?
Because it was a one off terror weapon with a massive flaw that they then had to re build from scratch......
Can it effectively pivot at all? Otherwise if you know its operational you maneuverer so the super laser is not aimed at you - the rebel fleet did not know it was working, although jumping onto the other side of the gun might have been a better move and raised suspicions when they pivoted it to face you.......
The entire resources of the Galatic Empire at peace built one very ten years or so - but it was never designed to be a war machine but a symbolic instrument of terror. The money and resources would be better spent in wartime on fleets - far more flexible and less vulnerable.
Grey Templar wrote: I suppose I should clarify they'd never recover while also engaged in total war along the entirety of their border. They could recover if they were only fighting a small disparate force of rebels who are little more than an annoyance in the grand scheme of things, not another galaxy spanning empire which horrendously outnumbers them in both men and material.
With respect. You are assuming that the IoM has sufficient coordination and planning to simultaneously assault the entirety of the Empire's galactic border. There are a number of prior posts in this thread that talk about how much space is actually empty and the enormous distances we are talking about. Both sides have the capability to trade territory for time, and IMHO winning the engagement relies entirely on force concentration, communications and logistics. The Empire definitely has the stronger reconnaissance arm. Its access to small hypderdrive equipped craft and potentially legions of probe droids should, in theory let it map enemy territory and identify key worlds in a way that the IoM can not match.
Grey Templar wrote: If the Empire manages to make a 40k ship explode that means whatever fleet they had engaged with that ship also gets annhilated. The Star Wars ships will be at danger close ranges due to the pathetic ranges of their weaponry if that is the case. Meaning their ships have zero chance of surviving such an event. And the Imperium can afford to lose ships, Star Wars cannot.
I am interested to better understand the lore on which you base this assertion. What is the expected yield of a reactor detonation? What's the damage radius? On what basis do you make the claim that the reactor overload will automatically destroy all enemy ships within the engagement zone? Does this reactor overload also destroy all friendly ships? Is the difference in durability 10x? 100x? 1000x+?
I believe the assertion that the Imperium can afford to lose ships is false. Its been oft stated that battlecruiser class ships are priceless and depending on pattern, may be impossible to replace. Example: The Apocalypse-class Battleship is a rare but extremely powerful Battleship currently in service to the Imperial Navy. The Apocalypse-class is no longer produced at Adeptus Mechanicus Forge World shipyards due to the aging design and lost technical specifications over the millennia. The vessels now in service with the Imperial Navy have either been in service since they were built or were recovered as Space Hulks and retrofitted back into working order so as to continue the fight for the Imperium. The main issue with the IoM is that production is entirely tied to specific Forgeworlds due to the specialized facilities required. While major facilities are needed in Star Wars as well, they are not nearly so restrictive.
-edited for grammar and spelling-
Only specific types of ships are no longer/can no longer be produced. The vast majority of Imperial ship designs can still be produced. I believe all of the ships with the armored prow are newer designs and can thus be replicated with ease.
As I recall, the Empire only has a few worlds which have facilities capable of producing Star Destroyers and other Capitol class warships. Kuat producing the vast majority of the Navy's ships. That is a severe vulnerability, one the Imperium doesn't have as the Imperium has thousands of forge worlds and other planets capable of producing warships(all of which outclass and outgun Star Wars ships)
As for reactor detonations, they are powerful enough to annihilate entire Tyranid hive fleets. Almost the entirety of Hive Fleet Behemoth was destroyed from a single warp drive detonation. This would well encompass the ranges of Star Wars ships. Because in order for them to have blown up a 40k ship, they would have to have been in weapons range(duh). That means their fleet is well inside the blast radius.
Not just that, it wasn't that long. I expect the Empire follows the rule of government procurement for military systems "why buy just one once your R&D is a sunk cost?" Deathstar 1 was a test bed. Hence, the Emporer himself not aboard. He was only at Deathstar 2 to help turn Luke. It took the Rebellion years to find Deathstar 2. Why wouldn't they have more?
Because it was a one off terror weapon with a massive flaw that they then had to re build from scratch......
Can it effectively pivot at all? Otherwise if you know its operational you maneuverer so the super laser is not aimed at you - the rebel fleet did not know it was working, although jumping onto the other side of the gun might have been a better move and raised suspicions when they pivoted it to face you.......
The entire resources of the Galatic Empire at peace built one very ten years or so - but it was never designed to be a war machine but a symbolic instrument of terror. The money and resources would be better spent in wartime on fleets - far more flexible and less vulnerable.
Huh? If it takes 10 years to build one, the 2nd (after correcting the major flaw) wouldn't be 90% complete in just 4 years.
It would make more sense (and, apart from hero plot armor, the things the Empire did made a lot of sense, especially compared to the stagnation and superstition in the IoM over the last, oh, 10,000 years) if the Empire, once they began construction, to start laying down the keel of Deathstar 2 (and 3, and 4, and 5). The idea of the Deathstars was to keep systems in line. If you're dealing with a million+ systems, it stands to reason to make as many as you can crew. They certainly didn't stop at one SSD.
Maybe there was a reason they didn't jump to the far side of Endor, orbit to the back side of the moon, destroy the shield generator with y-wing fighter-bombers and assault Deathstar 2 from the moon side, with the capital ships using the moon as a screen just in case the deathstar's superlaser is operational. Force DS2 to use its first shot destroying the moon (useless now with the shield generator destroyed). It will take enough time to recharge that your capital ships can adjust. Oh, yeah, I know...George Lucas having creative control, that's why. You have to have bunch of teddy bears wipe out an elite ground force (that even had AT-ATs on the ground, at the site of the shield generator).
Only specific types of ships are no longer/can no longer be produced. The vast majority of Imperial ship designs can still be produced. I believe all of the ships with the armored prow are newer designs and can thus be replicated with ease.
As I recall, the Empire only has a few worlds which have facilities capable of producing Star Destroyers and other Capitol class warships. Kuat producing the vast majority of the Navy's ships. That is a severe vulnerability, one the Imperium doesn't have as the Imperium has thousands of forge worlds and other planets capable of producing warships(all of which outclass and outgun Star Wars ships)
As for reactor detonations, they are powerful enough to annihilate entire Tyranid hive fleets. Almost the entirety of Hive Fleet Behemoth was destroyed from a single warp drive detonation. This would well encompass the ranges of Star Wars ships. Because in order for them to have blown up a 40k ship, they would have to have been in weapons range(duh). That means their fleet is well inside the blast radius.
Well, if we get back to "Space Marines versus the Empire", not every chapter has capital warship-building forge worlds. Matter of fact, I'd go out on a limb and say few if any do, as the High Lords need naval superiority as a check against the Adeptus Astartes. So, let's throw capital ship production out the window.
Next, I doubt all Astartes warships outclass and outgun all Imperial warships. There's some room to manuever within 40K fluff, but I doubt an Astartes destroyer or frigate outclasses and outguns a SD. The larger ships do, sure, but not all of them.
Third, when dealing with fleet sizes, let's keep in mind about the maximum size force the Astartes would put together for the Great Crusade against the Empire. Several chapters at most. It's not like all of them are going to abandon centuries-long campaigns agaisnt xenos, heretics and rebels. So, what? Ten chapters? 100? In any event, it won't be all of them. It certainly won't be all of them, plus the entire Imperium. We got to take 40K, warts and all. Cyclonic torpedoes come with a healthy dose of "unwilling to abandon lost causes and ally with other xenos in order to maximize efforts and wipe out Tyranids once and for all". So, it won't be all the chapters. Canon forbids it.
At it's peak, the Empire has 25,000 SDs. Figure 100 chapters on this crusade, each chapter is responsible for 2500 SDs. Yeah, a battle barge outclasses and outguns a SD. It doesn't outgun 1,000 of them.
jwr wrote: Huh? If it takes 10 years to build one, the 2nd (after correcting the major flaw) wouldn't be 90% complete in just 4 years.
Unless of course during the construction of the first one, Palpatine was still consolidating his power and thus was keeping the movement of mass materials and workers on the downlow. With the second death star Palpatine has fully taken control (hence dissolving the Senate in Episode 4) and there was no need for the secrecy.
It would make more sense (and, apart from hero plot armor, the things the Empire did made a lot of sense, especially compared to the stagnation and superstition in the IoM over the last, oh, 10,000 years) if the Empire, once they began construction, to start laying down the keel of Deathstar 2 (and 3, and 4, and 5). The idea of the Deathstars was to keep systems in line. If you're dealing with a million+ systems, it stands to reason to make as many as you can crew. They certainly didn't stop at one SSD.
Return of the Jedi disagrees. From the title crawl:
"Little does Luke know that the
GALACTIC EMPIRE has secretly
begun construction on a new
armored space station even
more powerful than the first
dreaded Death Star."
Maybe there was a reason they didn't jump to the far side of Endor, orbit to the back side of the moon, destroy the shield generator with y-wing fighter-bombers and assault Deathstar 2 from the moon side, with the capital ships using the moon as a screen just in case the deathstar's superlaser is operational.
Yes there was a reason. The Sanctuary moon and Death Star were both protected by a planetary shield. Planetary shields that were the reason the Death Star was designed in the first place, since even the shield the rebels used on Hoth was capable of withstanding the combined fire of 5 ISD and 1 SSD.
Martel732 wrote: You can't keep something like that a secret. Star Wars writers are really, really stupid.
How do you figure? Endor is in a relatively remote location. Rebels had no reason to travel in that area. The movies do not show who is doing the actual construction, but the EU says it was Stormtroopers (which is stupid). According to Clerks it would have been contractors (and they would have known the risks, so if they got killed it was their own fault). The hardest thing to hide would have been the material movement.
Just read that 1; Storm Trooper armour can take everything that isn't .50 cal or higher, and 2; if the armour isn't penetrated, the blast will spread throughout the armour, leaving the soldier severely wounded but not dead. Say a Lasgun is comparable to a normal Blaster, which will kill/wound on a direct hit. This means that a Bolter will rip a Stormtrooper apart. Are there any real estimates of the number of Stormtroopers at the height of the Empire?
Kuat Drive Yards is just one of literally-hundreds of major shipyards in the galaxy. These are yards that produce multiples of capital ships at a time. There are scores of ship-manufacturers in the SW Galaxy that own comparable facilities. Corellia, the planet, is home to dozens of such industries, it is what made them famous.
Grey Templar wrote: As for reactor detonations, they are powerful enough to annihilate entire Tyranid hive fleets. Almost the entirety of Hive Fleet Behemoth was destroyed from a single warp drive detonation. This would well encompass the ranges of Star Wars ships. Because in order for them to have blown up a 40k ship, they would have to have been in weapons range(duh). That means their fleet is well inside the blast radius.
Ah. You are referring to a Warp Drive detonation. I believe that the use of this vs the hive fleet at McCragge was done on purpose rather than a side effect of being destroyed. I'm pretty sure that if this happened every time the first warp capable ship was destroyed in a formation, you'd have not much of a fleet left as the warp vortex would murder all friendly ships as well. The other question is how fast the vortex occurs. It may be possible for enemy ships to flee before the vortex has been established.
Grey Templar wrote: As for reactor detonations, they are powerful enough to annihilate entire Tyranid hive fleets. Almost the entirety of Hive Fleet Behemoth was destroyed from a single warp drive detonation.
Which then raises the question of how the Tyranids can possibly be a threat if blowing up a warp drive is enough to annihilate a hive fleet. Why do they even bother to fight wars against the Tyranids instead of just flying a ship into the middle of the fleet and hitting the self-destruct button?
Grey Templar wrote: As for reactor detonations, they are powerful enough to annihilate entire Tyranid hive fleets. Almost the entirety of Hive Fleet Behemoth was destroyed from a single warp drive detonation.
Which then raises the question of how the Tyranids can possibly be a threat if blowing up a warp drive is enough to annihilate a hive fleet. Why do they even bother to fight wars against the Tyranids instead of just flying a ship into the middle of the fleet and hitting the self-destruct button?
Because "hitting the self-destruct button" may or may not incur a huge-as-hell Daemon invasion, as well as a slew of Daemonic Possessions.
dusara217 wrote: Because "hitting the self-destruct button" may or may not incur a huge-as-hell Daemon invasion, as well as a slew of Daemonic Possessions.
So then how can the Imperium risk having space combat at all? If the likely consequence of having a starship destroyed is a massive demon invasion then it's almost guaranteed that the demonic threat would be worse than whatever the Imperium is trying to fight, and the only sensible thing to do would be to run away. And yet somehow we see space battle after space battle without the Imperium vs. Tau story turning into "everyone tries to survive as reality itself is unmade". So clearly the destruction of a starship opening warp portals or whatever is an incredibly rare event.
dusara217 wrote: Because "hitting the self-destruct button" may or may not incur a huge-as-hell Daemon invasion, as well as a slew of Daemonic Possessions.
So then how can the Imperium risk having space combat at all? If the likely consequence of having a starship destroyed is a massive demon invasion then it's almost guaranteed that the demonic threat would be worse than whatever the Imperium is trying to fight, and the only sensible thing to do would be to run away. And yet somehow we see space battle after space battle without the Imperium vs. Tau story turning into "everyone tries to survive as reality itself is unmade". So clearly the destruction of a starship opening warp portals or whatever is an incredibly rare event.
You do realize that Warp Drives don't just up and detonate, correct? It is either the direct result of sabatoge or a final act of a desperate Captain who doesn't want his ship to die in vain. There is a reason that battles ending with detonated Warp Drives make up a solid minority of Void Battles, in 40k.
EDIT: Also, in order for it to incur a Daemon INvasion, there first needs to be a Daemon Army arrayed at the point of detonation. Usually, it just results in more Possessions, however, were it to become common practice, then there would be Daemon Armies lining up at the door every time the Imperial Navy got into a Space Battle. Of course, any Tzeentchian Fateweaver would likely be able to see the potential for such holes in the Warp to occur, and use them accordingly (even without them becoming commonplace), which is why it always bugs me when people use that strategy and nothing bad happens.
dusara217 wrote: You do realize that Warp Drives don't just up and detonate, correct? It is either the direct result of sabatoge or a final act of a desperate Captain who doesn't want his ship to die in vain. There is a reason that battles ending with detonated Warp Drives make up a solid minority of Void Battles, in 40k.
Ok then. This is now the end of the "every time a 40k ship is destroyed the warp drive explodes and destroys everything nearby, so Star Wars fleets will be annihilated as soon as they kill a single ship" argument.
dusara217 wrote: You do realize that Warp Drives don't just up and detonate, correct? It is either the direct result of sabatoge or a final act of a desperate Captain who doesn't want his ship to die in vain. There is a reason that battles ending with detonated Warp Drives make up a solid minority of Void Battles, in 40k.
Ok then. This is now the end of the "every time a 40k ship is destroyed the warp drive explodes and destroys everything nearby, so Star Wars fleets will be annihilated as soon as they kill a single ship" argument.
I'm amazed that something like that even became an argument XD
Grey Templar wrote: As for reactor detonations, they are powerful enough to annihilate entire Tyranid hive fleets. Almost the entirety of Hive Fleet Behemoth was destroyed from a single warp drive detonation. This would well encompass the ranges of Star Wars ships. Because in order for them to have blown up a 40k ship, they would have to have been in weapons range(duh). That means their fleet is well inside the blast radius.
Ah. You are referring to a Warp Drive detonation. I believe that the use of this vs the hive fleet at McCragge was done on purpose rather than a side effect of being destroyed. I'm pretty sure that if this happened every time the first warp capable ship was destroyed in a formation, you'd have not much of a fleet left as the warp vortex would murder all friendly ships as well. The other question is how fast the vortex occurs. It may be possible for enemy ships to flee before the vortex has been established.
Warp Drives can detonate due to damage the ship sustains. Or they can be deliberately detonated. Either way its not good for anybody in the area.
And even if the warp drive doesn't detonate, the ship's main reactors exploding is still not good for any ships nearby. And the fact its weaker doesn't save Star Wars vessels, they're toast if caught in the blast radius as its still going to temporarily make a sizable area of space like the surface of a star.
This is also why 40k ship formations are quite spread out(unlike Star Wars). They have both larger weapon ranges and they need to maintain safe distances in case reactors explode, though they don't always stay that far away(and a ship with full void shields can still potentially survive). Star Wars space battles all take place at extremely close ranges, and its not just for cinematic visuals. They're going to be basically right next to any ship they manage to explode, close enough to where they'd have zero chance of survival.
Well, if we get back to "Space Marines versus the Empire", not every chapter has capital warship-building forge worlds. Matter of fact, I'd go out on a limb and say few if any do, as the High Lords need naval superiority as a check against the Adeptus Astartes. So, let's throw capital ship production out the window.
Next, I doubt all Astartes warships outclass and outgun all Imperial warships. There's some room to manuever within 40K fluff, but I doubt an Astartes destroyer or frigate outclasses and outguns a SD. The larger ships do, sure, but not all of them.
Third, when dealing with fleet sizes, let's keep in mind about the maximum size force the Astartes would put together for the Great Crusade against the Empire. Several chapters at most. It's not like all of them are going to abandon centuries-long campaigns agaisnt xenos, heretics and rebels. So, what? Ten chapters? 100? In any event, it won't be all of them. It certainly won't be all of them, plus the entire Imperium. We got to take 40K, warts and all. Cyclonic torpedoes come with a healthy dose of "unwilling to abandon lost causes and ally with other xenos in order to maximize efforts and wipe out Tyranids once and for all". So, it won't be all the chapters. Canon forbids it.
At it's peak, the Empire has 25,000 SDs. Figure 100 chapters on this crusade, each chapter is responsible for 2500 SDs. Yeah, a battle barge outclasses and outguns a SD. It doesn't outgun 1,000 of them.
If you reread the OP, the situation is not a crusade of space marines vs the entire Empire. its the entire Imperium vs the Galactic empire.
Remember, the Empire was defeated by a few thousand freedom fighters and teddy bears.
Well, if we get back to "Space Marines versus the Empire", not every chapter has capital warship-building forge worlds. Matter of fact, I'd go out on a limb and say few if any do, as the High Lords need naval superiority as a check against the Adeptus Astartes. So, let's throw capital ship production out the window.
Next, I doubt all Astartes warships outclass and outgun all Imperial warships. There's some room to manuever within 40K fluff, but I doubt an Astartes destroyer or frigate outclasses and outguns a SD. The larger ships do, sure, but not all of them.
Third, when dealing with fleet sizes, let's keep in mind about the maximum size force the Astartes would put together for the Great Crusade against the Empire. Several chapters at most. It's not like all of them are going to abandon centuries-long campaigns agaisnt xenos, heretics and rebels. So, what? Ten chapters? 100? In any event, it won't be all of them. It certainly won't be all of them, plus the entire Imperium. We got to take 40K, warts and all. Cyclonic torpedoes come with a healthy dose of "unwilling to abandon lost causes and ally with other xenos in order to maximize efforts and wipe out Tyranids once and for all". So, it won't be all the chapters. Canon forbids it.
At it's peak, the Empire has 25,000 SDs. Figure 100 chapters on this crusade, each chapter is responsible for 2500 SDs. Yeah, a battle barge outclasses and outguns a SD. It doesn't outgun 1,000 of them.
If you reread the OP, the situation is not a crusade of space marines vs the entire Empire. its the entire Imperium vs the Galactic empire.
Remember, the Empire was defeated by a few thousand freedom fighters and teddy bears.
Rounds 1-4 were just Astartes, which means by the time the entire Imperium shows up, the Empire would've had time to begin developing new weapons and tactics, which the Imperium will steadfastly refuse to do themselves. There isn't much they would have to do. Hop up the engines in TIE Interceptors so they could catch Thunderhawks in atmospheric flight. Crank out more TIE-As so they have hyperspace capable attack craft to respond to smaller demi-company size actions until the SDs show up. Besides, there is no way in the world the Imperium can keep it together when 999 chapters (since 1 was wiped out in round 4) would keep it together when confronted by an entire galaxy filled with xenos. They would mindlock like a bunch of unsupervised servitors. Then they would blast off in 999 different directions, most of which would be wastes of time. Just like on Hoth. They'll run into that first Wampa, and they'll be scouring the whole planet to wipe them out in the name of the Emporer, and the Empire won't care. Endor's moon. Furry little stone-age squats. The Empire doesn't care. Repeat that hundreds of times. Hundreds of chapters wasting their time exterminating "worthless" (to the Empire) xenos, and with warp versus hyperspace travel times, time is the one thing the IoM doesn't have.
Also, nowhere, not in the canon, fluff, etc was the Empire defeated by the rebels and some teddy bears. The Empire lost their two top leaders, DS2, an SSD and about a dozen SDs. Out of a total fleet of tens of thousands. The whole premise of the 3 sequel movies features the renamed and undefeated Empire.
Even Lucas admitted the whole teddy bear thing was a stretch, but we can even go with the teddys beat about a company of stormtroopers...the rest of the legion was on smoke break with their AT-AT.
Round 1: 1 Space Marine vs 1 Storm Trooper (Star Wars)
Round 2: 10 Space Marines vs 100 Storm Troopers
Round 3: 1 Space Marine Terminator vs 10 Emperor's Guard
Round 4: 1 Space Marine Chapter including vehicles vs Stormtrooper Regiment (2500 Stormtroopers plus vehicles)
This is what rounds 1-4 were.
And no, it wasn't meant to be some sort of escalation/first contact thing. It was just what happens if these situations occur in a vacuum.
And no, the Empire was most definitely defeated. They didn't go away, but they were soundly defeated. The Rebellion/New Republic managed to take control of most of the inner systems after the battle of Endor and the war between them and the remaining Empire continued for a while till the Empire sued for peace. In the current timeframe the Empire and Republic have both created shadow organizations to wage proxy war(First Order and the Resistance). The First Order is NOT the Galactic Empire, the Resistance is NOT the Republic.
I think the disparity in manpower shown in the Force Awakens between the First Order and the Resistance suggests that the Rebel Alliance miscalculated after deposing the Emperor. The Republic was restored, as they had hoped, but in an anemic (and now destroyed) state. Instead of filling the power vacuum like they had hoped, they seem to have been pushed to the fringes instead. Considering that they lost a significant proportion of their total manpower at Endor (and from the sounds of it, their remaining fleet was pressed into service as the now destroyed Republic fleet), this isn't terribly surprising.
On a side note: The Empire was aware that the Rebel fleet was massing near Sullust in preparation to attack the Death Star II. They could have obliterated the Rebels at that point, except for the Emperor's hubris.
And no, the Empire was most definitely defeated. They didn't go away, but they were soundly defeated. The Rebellion/New Republic managed to take control of most of the inner systems after the battle of Endor and the war between them and the remaining Empire continued for a while till the Empire sued for peace. In the current timeframe the Empire and Republic have both created shadow organizations to wage proxy war(First Order and the Resistance). The First Order is NOT the Galactic Empire, the Resistance is NOT the Republic.
The only thing the rebels managed to do was not get wiped out, and in the process, kill the individual who had a hard-on for Luke Skywalker. The Rebellion was never taken seriously as an organization that had to be destroyed at all costs. They were only ever a side project. The empire had thousands of systems to worry about, hence the construction of multiple deathstars and superlaser-equipped SSDs. They were so "soundly defeated" that 30 years later, they are still causing grief.
It's like saying the Ultramarines "soundly defeated" the Tyranids after destroying hive fleet kraken. No, they defeated some tyranids, secured a local area against them, didn't even do it all by themselves, and lost no few of their own forces doing it.
Matthew wrote: Round 1: 1 Space Marine vs 1 Storm Trooper (Star Wars)
Round 2: 10 Space Marines vs 100 Storm Troopers
Round 3: 1 Space Marine Terminator vs 10 Emperor's Guard
Round 4: 1 Space Marine Chapter including vehicles vs Stormtrooper Regiment (2500 Stormtroopers plus vehicles)
Round 5: All resources from the Imperium (1 million Space Marines, billions of Guardsmen, and so on) vs all soldiers and military units portrayed in the Star Wars movies (Stormtroopers, Clones, Rebels, and so on)
Location: The Hoth system.
GO!
Apart from round 5, yes Imperium wins every time.
But on round 5 I don't think so. People say Sith are equivalent to Psykers, but they are not. A single Psyker never blew up a star system, unless you count Tzeentch.
Sith have been said able too do this in SW fluff using the Force.
Also, all of the Space Marines would be unable to fight a Sith Lord to begin with because he could induce the Horror Force power.
Plus the Death Star.
So yeah I'm giving round 5 to the Empire for the Death Star, Vader and Sidious.
keezus wrote: @Chaos Spawn: Considering that the expanded universe is no longer considered canon, I think that uber-jedi/sith powers are to be discounted.
Since certain of the uber-Sith/Jedi are mentioned in the still-canon films, I don't think that's the case.
Palpatine implies that Plageius could create life. However, we don't know if he actually had a hand in Anakins conception, or if Palpatine was saying something to turn Anakin.
Matthew wrote: Round 1: 1 Space Marine vs 1 Storm Trooper (Star Wars)
Round 2: 10 Space Marines vs 100 Storm Troopers
Round 3: 1 Space Marine Terminator vs 10 Emperor's Guard
Round 4: 1 Space Marine Chapter including vehicles vs Stormtrooper Regiment (2500 Stormtroopers plus vehicles)
Round 5: All resources from the Imperium (1 million Space Marines, billions of Guardsmen, and so on) vs all soldiers and military units portrayed in the Star Wars movies (Stormtroopers, Clones, Rebels, and so on)
Location: The Hoth system.
GO!
Also, all of the Space Marines would be unable to fight a Sith Lord to begin with because he could induce the Horror Force power.
For starters, Space Marines wouldn't need to be close to a Sith Lord for the opportunity kill him, but even if they were and a Sith tried using Horror, many Space Marines would be able to withstand this because of strength of will and fearlessness. Also, things like Skitarii and Battle Servitors would be completely unaffected by Force powers that affect the mind!
There are psychic powers in 40k which directly mimic Horror. Normal humans can resist both variants in either universe. Given the indoctrination that Marines undergo they are fairly likely to be unaffected by either, being super humans.
The things that would horrify a Space Marine aren't the same as what normal people would find horrifying. The thing is that their indoctrination actually makes them more susceptible to certain kinds of manipulation. Say for example that you try to plant the idea in their minds that their battle brothers have turned to heresy. A marine would ignore that initially, because that idea is extremely unlikely... But the problem is, due to their training, they know it isn't completely impossible... So they step up their vigilance. Trouble is, that as their paranoia ratchets upwards, they'll begin to perceive the similar paranoia of their battle brothers as hiding their guilt. With such misgivings, they would never share their fears with their brethren... who knows how deep the heresy runs! Once the first bolter shot is fired... (not necessarily even started by a Marine) It's only a matter of time before it is brother vs brother, or straight up Inquisitorial review, or even exterminatus. Even if the Inquisition finds no heresy... the fact that such a breakdown could occur in the Astartes needs to be swept under the rug.
The IoM is its own worst enemy. It doesn't take much of nudge to bring down that mountain of superstition and mistrust.
For every squad of storm troopers, the Imperium can drop a million imperial guard on them. The empire can blow planets up? The Imperium can shift a planet off its axis by piling on enough dead bodies on it.
It's the same reason that space marines would lose a war against imperial guard: because they'd be outnumbered like, 1 space marine to 1 million Guard.
@keezus - that's why you have commissars and inquisitors. To shoot all the people who stray too far (that is, 0.01 micron) from the Emperor's path. Where one falls, a legion rises to fill his shoes. Damn humans breed like rabbits 38,000 years from now, and they're harder to wipe out than cockroaches!
Matthew wrote: Round 1: 1 Space Marine vs 1 Storm Trooper (Star Wars)
Round 2: 10 Space Marines vs 100 Storm Troopers
Round 3: 1 Space Marine Terminator vs 10 Emperor's Guard
Round 4: 1 Space Marine Chapter including vehicles vs Stormtrooper Regiment (2500 Stormtroopers plus vehicles)
Round 5: All resources from the Imperium (1 million Space Marines, billions of Guardsmen, and so on) vs all soldiers and military units portrayed in the Star Wars movies (Stormtroopers, Clones, Rebels, and so on)
Location: The Hoth system.
GO!
Putting in my two cents...
ROUND 1!
It would go to the SM.
Giving the ST every benefit possible, such as...
(1) assuming their armor is not flimsy, but a product of advanced futuristic armor design and technology,
(2) their training is on par with IG/AM storm troopers (better than standard troops, which the Galactic Empire did have),
(3) negating the "Stormtroopers can't hit anything" rule from the movies,
In the end what you have is an equal to an IG/AM stormtrooper with a hotshot lasgun (blaster rifle). The SM beats the ST in every category, having better armor, better physique and physical traits, arguably better weaponry (boltguns still fire miniature explosive rounds!), better training (SMs are usually from world's where they have fought to survive their entire lives, and that's before they are trained, both before and after SM enhancement, in a training regimen that is far superior than that of any normal humans), and arguably better gear.
Truthfully, a clone trooper would stand a better chance or last longer, and that's only because clones were trained at birth (though technically they were also modified to be less independent and worked better when working together), but it would still go to the SM.
Winner: Space Marine.
ROUND 2!
Potentially the same result as Round 1, as quality often trumps quantity.
HOWEVER, numbers CAN count for something, as is often the case when a bunch of weak IG/AM guys with flashlights decide to gang up on a more powerful enemy and light them up. There have been several eye-witnessed accounts of IG lighting up a Greater Daemon of Korne with flashlights, and winning, and this is often done with base troop platoon squads, not stormtroopers. "Death by a thousand cuts", and other such historical quotes on tactics and strategy could easily come into play here. By the rules, both stand good chance depending n how they are used. By the fluff, it would probably go to SMs, because they would probably have the superior tactics (other things about them are superior, yes, but their tactics are what would win the day here).
Winner: Space Marines.
ROUND 3!
This one is, honestly, up for debate and depends on the situation.
If this fight happens in an open space, no cover whatsoever, just a straight up fight, then the Terminator probably has it. They would mow down the Imperial Royal Guardsmen with the standard storm bolter before they go close. If any Royal Guards did get close, they would be agile and fast enough to dodge the close attacks of the Terminator (because something that big will be slow, clumsy and difficult to maneuver in tight quarters and CQB, despite what the fluff might say).
In CQB, the Royal Guardsmen with their superior training to stormtroopers and armed with blasters and force pikes and/or vibroblades (which may be able to count as power weapons, meant to be more powerful than standard melee weapons, but not quite as good as lightsabers/force weapons), a Royal Guard in CQB with a terminator "might" be able to take out a terminator, as long as they use their superior speed and mobility to avoid the terminator's power fist.
So, at range, not much of a contest, but in close, the Royal Guard stands a decent chance as the fight comes down to speed and agility VS durability. If it came down to stamina, which one would wear out first, the terminator would win.
However, what if this fight did not happen out in the open? Imperial Royal Guardsmen are the cream of the crop, not stupid, and fight tactically, and are more unified in combat, much like SMs. If faced by a terminator, they would more than likely draw the terminator into a combat area more in favor for the Royal Guardsmen, and the terminator may more than likely be too proud to turn down such a challenge. In this fight, Royal Guards would have the advantage, making use of all available cover and superior group tactics against a single terminator. The Royal Guardsmen also would not be above sacrificing their own members (by their own choice because they love their Emprah too!) to defeat an enemy, especially if their own Emperor is threatened.
And lets not forget that all Stormtroopers have a Thermal Detonator as standard equipment for each trooper, technocally equal to a melta bomb, and the Royal Guardsmen would have this too, as well as "other hidden weapons". With their superior tactics, chosen battle area, superior numbers, and THIS WEAPON, the Royals Guardsmen would beat a single terminator, probably sacrificing their own members to draw the terminator's attention to make an opening in its defence, or walk up to it and JIHAD bomb it outright (though Royal Guardsmen are also good enough, that they could easily sneak up, dodge melee combat, slap the bomb on the terminator, and get away before it blows up).
Winner: Star Wars Imperial Royal Guardsmen.
NOTE!: Some Royal Guardsmen were also trained in the Force and were at varying levels of power. Even light Force abilities would vastly turn the tide in this fight.
ROUND 4!
Same result as Round 2.
While the numbers are much more numerous, with much more resources and vehicles, it comes back down to quality VS quantity, with the SMs having superior tactics, as well as the ability to outlast the Stormtrooper regiment. This fight would come down to which is better at playing the long game. SMs, while ideal for lightning strikes, are no strangers to full blown campaigns of war, where their lightning tactics STILL work in their favor. The STs would face mounting losses, as well as eventual loss of morale and any and every kind of fatigue one can imagine.
On the flip side, SMs have actually been designed, enhanced and trained to be resistant, if not outright immune, to all of these. An SMs long lifespan also gives them an experience and patience that STs lack, and makes SMs perfect for approaching such a campaign already being several moves ahead of the enemy and having planned that enemy's defeat from the very beginning of the campaign.
Winner: Space Marines.
ROUND 5!
Wow. Everything Imperium VS EVERYTHING in Star Wars? All stormtroopers, clone troopers, droid army, rebel alliance, and even Jedi and Sith? (I'm throwing Jedi/Sith in there, because even though they are not military, they're needed to counter psykers, magic, warp stuff, etc).
The best way to approach this is to break it down into categories, and judge which one is superior in that category, then add it all up, and see who wins.
(1) Who has the most manpower?
The Imperium of Man. Here's why...
Where the Galactic Empire has a vast amount of troops, they DO NOT have the manpower to maintain a presence on every inhabitable world in the galaxy. Instead, they maintain a permanent presence on key locations with garrisons and such, and have fleets of ships that patrol and travel the vastness of the (known regions) of the galaxy. The Empire has power wherever these ships, like Star Destroyers, happen to be roaming, and in theory this power is everywhere, but in reality that power receeds and does not exist when those ships leave that are of space. The Galactic Empire, while they do enact a draft on certain world's, this draft is not galaxy wide, again referring to the previously mentioned statement about the Empire's power and presence. Even with the military might of the clones, rebels and droids, they would not have the manpower to match the widespread galactic presence and power of the Imperium of Man.
On the flip side, the Imperium of Man DOES maintain some form of presence on every inhabitable world that they are aware of, including a military presence at least in the form of an armed local militia or planetary defense force. The Imperium also maintains a constant draft across the galaxy, which while it takes different forms, every world of the Imperium does supply troops to the Imperium's military.
Also, the Star Wars militaries exist in a political system that can still operate somewhat efficiently and has yet to grow too big to be bogged down by it's own weight. The Imperium of Man has so much military might and manpower, so many inhabited worlds, so large and wide of a presence in their galaxxy, that the Imperium's government is bogged down and slowed by it's own shear weight. While slower than Star Wars' Republic(s)/Empire, they DO have superior manpower!
Winner: Imperium of Man.
(2) Who has the more efficient infrastructure and logistics?
Star Wars, for all the same reasons previously mentioned.
This would allow the combined military of Star Wars to better deploy, retreat, redeploy, distribute and redistribute supplies and weapons, as well as keep better logistics of records and numbers for commanding officers to make accurate decisions in the use of their forces.
Winner: Star Wars.
(3) Who has the superior firepower?
Just about all troops in Star Wars have blaster weapons, which could be seen as equal to lasguns and other las weapons in the IG/AM. Star Wars does have other kinds of weapons, but the blaster is their go-to weapon, and is the standard.
The Imperium, however, while they do use las weapons equal to blasters, they have more of these. Also, while this is the standard weapon of the IG/AM, it is not the standard weapon of the other militant branches of the Imperium, these branches having more powerful weapons, such as the bolt gun (which shoots shells that are like grenades going off with every hit), as well as many others. The Imperium's arsenal also has much more variety, which would allow them to have potentially better weapon options for specific combat situations. The Imperium's variety of weapons also gives way to much more powerful weapons. While Star Wars has blasters and lasers of varying scale, as well as a few types of missiles, they have very little variety, leading to a set power level, with their more powerful weapons being very rare at best (Death Star?). Whereas the Imperium has a variety of weapons that far surpass blasters, lasers and missiles, and tend to be quite nastier when doing damage (melta/plasma to the face!).
Winner: Imperium of Man.
(4) Who has the better Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMDs)?
Star Wars has the Death Star, a moon-sized battle station armed with many ships, soldiers, weapons, and most important of all, the Axis Superlaser that can destroy an entire planet in one shot. This station is also mobile and can travel around the galaxy, and used to inspire fear in the galactic population to better control them (since they lack that manpower mentioned earlier).
In the Imperium, wiping out entire planets and their population is not a rare and scary event meant to inspire fear, but a common practice performed by the IF/AM, SMs, Inquisition, and other militant branches of the Imperium. Instead of this being horrid and unmentionable, they call it "Exterminatus" as a standard order given by higher ranking officers and inquisitors. The Imperium does not commit Exterminatus to inspire fear among the galactic population and force them in line; they perform Exterminatus because they don't like you, the way you look, talk, use the bathroom, or any other excuse they can come up with on a whim, whenever it suits them.
Where Star Wars must house this kind of power in a moon-sized battle station, the Imperium has weapons of this magnitude in their larger capital class ships. These weapons come in varieties of power and effect, from being able to scour all life from the surface of a planet, to destroying the planet outright and obliterating it.
Star Wars would be shocked and horrified as the Imperium would be using Exterminatus on them en masse until they surrender, and the Star Wars galaxy probably wouldn't have enough manpower, ships and firepower to resist and repress the Exterminatus firepower of the Imperium fleet.
Meanwhile, the Death Star would be assaulted by at minimum a few squads, or maximum a company, or space marines, who would push their way through the battle station until they either take control of it, or destroy it from within to deny a superweapon from the united Star Wars forces.
Winner: Imperium of Man.
(5) Who has the better starships?
Starfighters would be similar in power. But the Imperium has much bigger capital class ships, able to carry more starfighters, many other smaller ships, a wider variety of weapons, as well as more powerful weapons than the Star Wars turbolaser (see WMDs, above), a well as arguably thicker hulls, better shields (void shields) and overall better durability.
Where a Star Destroyer may be able to devastate the surface of a planet with its turbolasers and missiles, over an extended period of time, capital ships of the Imperium have specific weapons that can achieve the same results rather instantly with one shot.
Where Star Wars has super class ships, like super star destroyers of various types, these are always rare and unique and take a long time to build over many years. The Imperium has entire fleets of vessels this size, spread across the galaxy, armed to the teeth.
Winner: Imperium of Man.
(6) Who has the better Faster Than Light (FTL) travel?
Star Wars has the Hyperdrive, which allows FTL flight across the galaxy, and who's only flaw is when improper calculations can lead to traveling too close to the gravity well of a stellar objects (or interdiction fields), which can knock a ship out of Hyperspace or destroy it outright (but this is a rare occurrence, and hyperdrive space travel is quite common and has led to a galactic culture that uses hyperdrives to get around as commonly as a person taking a drive or hopping a bus to go from one city to another.
The Imperium uses the "Warp Drive"(?), which allows it to access the dimension of the Warp for FTL flight. This can allow FTL flight across the whole of the galaxy, but can arguably take a bit longer to get around. Also, navigating the Warp depends on having a psychic Navigator on board, a mutation of humanity created for this specific purpose, and that the Navigator vcan detect the galactic level psychic light/presence of The Emperor on the Golden Throne, who is kept alive only by that Golden Throne, has been kept "alive" in this state for 10,000 years, has led to humanity becoming utterly dependent on this light to navigate by across the galaxy. If this light ever goes out (and it will eventually), humanity would no longer have a way to navigate the Warp, their ONLY means of traveling FTL, and humanity would effectively be stranded on whatever world's they find themselves on if/when that happens, and thereby making humanity vulnerable to the other numerable threats in their galaxy, many of which destroy/devour entire worlds of which they would never be able to escape.
This is not to mention the general threats of traversing the Warp, where demonic monstrosities await the chance to invade the hull of ships and devour the flesh and souls of their crew and passengers. This is a constant threat when entering the Warp, held back only by Void Shields, which are known to fail from time to time. Though these shields can be brought back up in an instant, that brief moment could be enough to lead to the slaughter of the entire crew of the ship.
Winner: Star Wars.
(7) Who has the better quality troops?
The Imperium, because of Space Marines, for all the obvious reasons, and probably a few others not so obvious. The Imperium also has more of these elite supersoldiers than Star Wars has of their elite troops.
Winner: Imperium.
(8) Who has the better "Powered" troops?
Star Wars has Jedi and Sith who use The Force for a variety of effects. The Force is usually a more subtle power, with effects in combat that can enhance the user's physical abilities and combat prowess. In the films, The Force can be used to project lightning at an enemy, though the Expanded Universe implies other uses in combat, but the majority of these effects are still more subtle than overt. Jedi/Sith are also armed with lightsabers, which may equal an Imperium's psyker force weapon in damage.
The Imperium has SM Librarians and sanctioned Psykers of various types. These psykers draw their power from the Warp which is chaos and unreality itself. When the Warp is drawn on for combat, it's effects are almost always much more overt, powerful and destructive than any Force ability shown in the films, and most Force abilities depicted in the Expanded Universe (most, not all). Also, while psyker powers can often mimic the abilities of The Force, and the more common psykers should be a match for Jedi and Sith, psykers in the Imperium are known to gain vast amounts of power that can arguably surpass the power of The Force in raw destructive power. Psykers also have a wider variety of gear and weapons to use, where Jedi and Sith often do not. Psyker's powers also have a very dangerous quality in that, as they tap into the Warp, there is always the chance that they will lose control, being possessed by a daemon or die in an explosion of Warp energy that would no doubt affect the surrounding area and possibly take their enemy (Jedi/Sith) with them in death.
Alsso, as grimdark as the Imperium is, every psyker should be assumed to be with the Dark Side, and potentially able to give the Sith lessons in what true evil really is.
Winner: Imperium of Man.
(9) Who has the better tactics and is more lethal?
The Imperium of Man. The Imperium's tactics and lethality are much more brutal than the worst that Star Wars has to offer, even making the Sith look good by comparison. And in the Imperium and the grimdark universe of 40k, THIS is considered the good guys!
Winner: Imperium of Man.
(10) Who is more advanced technologically?
Debatable. While Star Wars is steadily advancing their technology (though slowly, as it is happening over a vast galactic scale), the Imperium has actually forgotten more technology than Star Wars will probably ever know. Much of this tech is remembered and maintained by the Adeptus Mechanicus, including yet MORE devastating superweapons, both for the battlefield on a planet, and in space against planets, and even stars.
Where Star Wars has a set standard on technology, the Imperium has a wider variety of tech, which would allow them to do much more with it in battle.
Star Wars tech has a certain degree of durability and even has energy shields. However, the Imperium's technology seems to be built for even more durability and sturdiness, much of their more impressive tech being centuries to millennia old, as well as energy shileds, from personal to capital ship scale, that are meant to be resistant to weapons much more powerful than those used in Star Wars.
The Imperium also has a wide variety of tech meant for use in conjunction with psyker abilities. Star Wars has shown a few examples of tech in relation to The Force, but the integration is far less pronounced.
Actually the Exterminatus is not a standard order. A simple imperial general or even a space marine chapter master lacks such authorization. An exterminatus can only be declared by the Inquisition or the High Lords of Terra, and only in dire cases; ie Demonic incursions, mass heresy, and ork/tyranid infestation. In other words, when they are losing hard, and there is no chance of retaking that world.
The IoM does blow up more planets than the GE, and they do have more of the means to do so, but they aren't as flippant about it as you make it out to be.
Its more "feth this, feth you, this is bs! *flips the table and fires a doomsday device" than "they looked at me funny *fires a doomsday device*"
(4) Who has the better Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMDs)?
(5) Who has the better starships?
I'm just going to ignore all the parts about ground troops, as it has already been stated many times that without winning the space theatre, the side on the ground gets an automatic loss. The major issue that I have with 40k feats is how inconsistent the writers are. Those arguing for the strength of the Imperium's space fleet always boils down to two main factors:
1. Ridiculous numbers of ships
2. Exterminatus Level Weaponry
Let's look at the assertion that a IoM capital ship can one shot the surface of a planet. I'm going to be conservative and say that you're only removing say... North America, and only down 100m. Vaporization energy for that amount of planet crust requires energy output of 17-34 petatons. Well... that certainly is a hefty number. Certainly, nothing in Star Wars can tank that kind of firepower. Begs the question, if the IoM (and by extension, the forces of Chaos) have this level of firepower, why aren't they trotting it out every battle, one-shotting each other. The usual response is VOID SHIELDS. This raises a whole other conundrum, that if Void Shielding is strong enough to tank a shot of that level, why the hell do ships have regular weapons batteries? Even if the disparity in firepower level is say... 1000x (down to the low gigatons, which is still plenty to destroy the surface of a planet)... the batteries would be so weak against shields to be practically useless, and conversely, if the shields are OK vs batteries, something 10 000x more powerful is going to one-shot whatever ship you bring.
Andrew C already noted earlier in this thread that the old Space Hulk rulebook indicated that exterminatus level warheads are 6 gigatons in power - this would be consistent with cratering energy for a planet. If that is correct for an exterminatus level weapon: this suggests that regular ship firepower is quite a bit lower by magnitude of possibly up to 1000x less - anything lower - say in the 10x range suggests that you could easily conduct a slower, less thorough exterminatus with your conventional arms. IMHO, this is unlikely, as you wouldn't need =I= approval to scour with your regular guns, nor would trotting out an exterminatus weapon be such a great deal if it wasn't a great deal more powerful than your regular weapons. KEEP IN MIND, 40K... MANY SHIPS BATTERIES ARE PROJECTILE GUNS! The literature states that the guns "accelerate fusion warheads to an appreciable fraction of the speed of light"... however at 0.5C and a 1 ton warhead, this ends up meaning that your regular cannon is as strong as your exterminatus weapon... which comes back to the assumed yield being nonsense... (I would theorize that appreciable fraction represents maybe 1%C? That's still plenty fast, and gives a yield of 2MT which is more consistent with my next point...
Since 40k canon acknowledges Orks as being a legitimate threat, and indigenous Ork ship weapons basically fire chunks of asteroid at their opponents - AND Ork ships CAN damage IoM ships with their weapons... one might note that Void Shielding CAN NOT be that great, and by extension, IoM weapons aren't as insane as the narrators in various 40k fiction make them out to be, more likely being in the high KT (100x) to /low (1x) MT range (especially since lobbing rocks at your opponents WORKS... i.e. point defense can't destroy them all!!!). This suggests that firepower-wise, ships in Star Wars and in the IoMMAY BE ON SIMILAR FOOTING, and the Death Star is magnitudes of power greater than anything the IoM has at their disposal.
I just wanted to extend the INCONSISTENCY of 40k logic.
1. A space marine in power armor armed with a powerfist can punch a tank to death. Ergo, a powerfist punch = tank round.
2. A normal joe punches at ~300J.
2b. A M829 kicks out around 51.87 MJ
2c. The difference in power is 172911x
3. Even if we assume that a Space Marine in base form is 100x stronger than a human (unlikely, based on the limits of physiology), and power armor augments them by a further 100x (also unlikely, since the power armor is a sheath, which bonds to the space marine's black carapace - again, limits of physiology)... the Space Marine's punch is still ends up being less than 2/3 as strong as the tank round.
This leads us to the conclusion that maybe tank armor isn't so good in the 41st millenium. My favourite example guys, the Orks beat tanks using improvised mines and panzerfausts, and can also punch tanks to death if wearing a power klaw IN BASE FORM (non-mega armored form)... so... eh... you'll have to draw your own conclusions here.
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Psienesis wrote: Apart from a Nova Cannon, the blast radius of which is measured in AU, that would probably be accurate.
The IoM has quite a large number of these as its standard armament on quite a number of battlecruiser and cruiser patterns... one might think that given their "exceptional" power, they'd be slaughtering the gak out of their opposition via one-shots. This is the only thing that bothers me about ascribing any super-high yield to a commonly fielded gun.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Second thought; If the blast radius is in AU... why don't they just use the novacannon for exterminatus... it would easily melt all the surface structures off the side of the planet it was aimed at.
Nova Cannons aren't *that* common, considering that they basically build the cannon, and then build a ship around it. There's also not that many cruiser-class (minimum tonnage needed to carry it) vessels in the Imperium, as we demonstrated earlier ITT.
With regards to the Powerfist/Powerklaw... the math you put there is way off, because you're forgetting that it's the powerfield of the powerfist that's doing most of the work. That energy field destroys matter on a molecular level. Touch p-fist to tank, tank gets a fist-sized hole in it. You don't need much actual force behind the swing to effectively employ power weapons.
Psienesis wrote: Nova Cannons aren't *that* common, considering that they basically build the cannon, and then build a ship around it. There's also not that many cruiser-class (minimum tonnage needed to carry it) vessels in the Imperium, as we demonstrated earlier ITT.
"The Nova Cannon is one of the most exceptionally powerful weapons employed by the military forces of the Imperium of Man. Mounted below the heavily armoured prows of Imperial Navy Cruisers and Battleships, Nova Cannons have few equals in terms of their range or destructive power. Very few weapons are capable of creating a blast effect that can encompass multiple Warp-capable starships. These rare and massive weapons are distinguished by that capacity. "
"The Mars-class Battlecruiser is a powerful starship of the Imperial Navy and a very common and respected sight across Imperial space. It represents the apex of human engineering in space combat and it is a truly multi-role vessel capable of engaging and defeating a large variety of threats to Imperial dominance in the Milky Way Galaxy... ...The Mars-class is well armed and equipped for its multiple roles and it mounts a Nova Cannon, a lance battery, fighter/bomber launch bays and multiple other point defense weapons batteries. "
Not *that* common = *pretty* common? To differentiate from not *ubiquitous* or *always present*? YMMV.
As the Novacannon is super common we have two scenarios. Either, it's not really orders of magnitude more powerful than the IoM weapons, and properly shielded ships CAN survive a shot from it, thus explaining why the Imperium is gripped in a grim darkness that knows only war, instead of an endless cavalcade of victories... or the Empire is doomed since the IoM has a Novacannon in every garage. (Mars Class was in the BFG starter IIRC... so pretty common... i.e. in every Imperial fleet... multiples even..!)
The novacannon vs weapon batteries. Both descriptions claim that the projectiles are accelerated to a proportion near light speed (novacannon, almost light speed, and weapon batteries a "appreciable fraction of lightspeed". At that level of speed, the tonnage of the shot is almost irrelevant (we're talking insiginficant % yield difference between 1 projectile and on that's 1000 times larger mass due to the kinetic power that is imparted from the speed.
Psienesis wrote: With regards to the Powerfist/Powerklaw... the math you put there is way off, because you're forgetting that it's the powerfield of the powerfist that's doing most of the work. That energy field destroys matter on a molecular level. Touch p-fist to tank, tank gets a fist-sized hole in it. You don't need much actual force behind the swing to effectively employ power weapons.
If the powerfield is doing all the work like you suggest - it shouldn't matter what the strength of the wielder is, nor should it matter if it is a fist or a sword. The obvious response would be that it depends on the size of the field, and the powerplant feeding it. This makes no sense at all, considering that one would expect terminator powerfists to be more powerful, and power weapons/fists powered off power armor to be of similar strength. That is NOT how the use / effect is described in the background fiction though. I don't have any issues with the fluff "claiming" certain power levels - the issue is that the fluff is very inconsistent...
Its not that a powerfist has equal punch to a battlecannon. Its that it can target weak spots that a ranged weapon couldn't normally hit, thus it has a similar effect.
If the powerfield is doing all the work like you suggest - it shouldn't matter what the strength of the wielder is, nor should it matter if it is a fist or a sword. The obvious response would be that it depends on the size of the field, and the powerplant feeding it. This makes no sense at all, considering that one would expect terminator powerfists to be more powerful, and power weapons/fists powered off power armor to be of similar strength. That is NOT how the use / effect is described in the background fiction though. I don't have any issues with the fluff "claiming" certain power levels - the issue is that the fluff is very inconsistent...
Considering Gaunt fethed up a Dreadnought in close-quarters combat with his powersword... the strength of the wielder doesn't actually matter so much, no. Gaunt's a tall dude, athletic, too, but he's no Space Marine. It is quite possible, however, that a bigger power-plant can provide a bigger matter-destroying energy field, but I'm not certain if anything exists to provide that explanation.
Not *that* common = *pretty* common? To differentiate from not *ubiquitous* or *always present*?
Lexicanum wrote: Battlefleet:
A Battlefleet comprises the vessels responsible for protecting a sector of the Imperium. A battlefleet is commanded by a Lord Admiral and is the largest operational naval organisation, usually consisting of between 50 and 75 ships of varying size.
So in the entire Imperium, assuming every Sector Battlefleet has nothing but Mars-Class Cruisers and larger vessels, and that all of them are equipped with Nova Cannons, we're seeing a few thousand, in total, at the absolute outside. There's almost as many Marines in a Space Marine Chapter as there are Nova Cannons in the entire galaxy.
Psienesis wrote: So in the entire Imperium, assuming every Sector Battlefleet has nothing but Mars-Class Cruisers and larger vessels, and that all of them are equipped with Nova Cannons, we're seeing a few thousand, in total, at the absolute outside. There's almost as many Marines in a Space Marine Chapter as there are Nova Cannons in the entire galaxy.
So, yeah, they're pretty fething rare.
Uh... ok. rare compared to what? Lasguns? I mean, its stated that it's a common battlecruiser pattern. That suggests that it's present in most battlefleets. Probably multiples... even if it were 20% Mars Class, that would suggest that it's going to be present in any naval engagement, multiples possibly. All I'm saying is that if the IoM is bringing Novacannon to each major engagement, and if it is a superweapon (10x?? 100x? more powerful than regular lance / weapon batteries)... they should be winning out-right correct??? With planet sized blast radius: it should be auto-killing every enemy fleet it looks at! Xenos like Orks and Tau shouldn't stand a chance against a weapon of such magnitude, and as a splash damage weapon, holofields don't do gak against that. Since this is NOT the case, the novacannon is probably no more than double the strength of all the other weapons at most.
I stand corrected on the power weapons. Clearly, since these are much more available... never mind Nova Cannons... it just means that we'll have guardsmen destroying AT-ATs with power weapons. The Empire is doomed.
So in the entire Imperium, assuming every Sector Battlefleet has nothing but Mars-Class Cruisers and larger vessels, and that all of them are equipped with Nova Cannons, we're seeing a few thousand, in total, at the absolute outside. There's almost as many Marines in a Space Marine Chapter as there are Nova Cannons in the entire galaxy.
So, yeah, they're pretty fething rare.
Wrong, as I already demonstrated before. The Imperium has tens of thousands of sectors at a bare minimum, assuming they control only a tiny fraction of the galaxy.
OK gents... The IoM has innumerable Nova Cannon ships. Bearing that in mind, I'd theorize that they are more powerful than normal guns, but not substantively more, and definitely not an order of magnitude more powerful... This suggests that the Empire's fleet and the IoM can fight on relatively equal footing on a ship vs ship engagement.
Ignoring the whole ship quantity thing for a minute... In a galaxy vs galaxy engagement, I actually see the Empire having the advantage in terms of troop movements and recon. In fact - if they: Imperial Agents, ever determined the location of Holy Terra - destruction of the Astronomicon pretty much guarantees the Empire's victory.
Regarding how one would destroy the Astronomicon? The quick and dirty way would be to drop a Star Destroyer out of lightspeed inside Holy Terra's atmosphere and use it as a relavatistic kill vehicle. If they had time, fitting hyperdrives to a moon would be more of a guarantee.
How to find Holy Terra? I'm sure the Empire could win at least one minor engagement vs the IoM starfleet... especially against one of the early advance wave - and all IoM ships would contain star charts of their territory. Theoretically, they could map out the hyperspace routes using hyperdrive equipped droid ships. The Empire would have to run from battles they can't win in the mean time, but they have the empty space to do so.
I think the IoM's intelligence gathering is going to be heavily limited due to its paranoia about risking "contamination". In fact, the standard of living in the Empire is so much better than the oppressed masses in the Imperium that should this information become common knowledge - turning traitor might not be out of the question - especially if the IoM's victory is less than certain. Its not like this is without precedence as Imperial Citizens were noted to have joined the Tau Greater Good.
Psienesis wrote: So in the entire Imperium, assuming every Sector Battlefleet has nothing but Mars-Class Cruisers and larger vessels, and that all of them are equipped with Nova Cannons, we're seeing a few thousand, in total, at the absolute outside. There's almost as many Marines in a Space Marine Chapter as there are Nova Cannons in the entire galaxy.
So, yeah, they're pretty fething rare.
Uh... ok. rare compared to what? Lasguns? I mean, its stated that it's a common battlecruiser pattern. That suggests that it's present in most battlefleets. Probably multiples... even if it were 20% Mars Class, that would suggest that it's going to be present in any naval engagement, multiples possibly. All I'm saying is that if the IoM is bringing Novacannon to each major engagement, and if it is a superweapon (10x?? 100x? more powerful than regular lance / weapon batteries)... they should be winning out-right correct??? With planet sized blast radius: it should be auto-killing every enemy fleet it looks at! Xenos like Orks and Tau shouldn't stand a chance against a weapon of such magnitude, and as a splash damage weapon, holofields don't do gak against that. Since this is NOT the case, the novacannon is probably no more than double the strength of all the other weapons at most.
I stand corrected on the power weapons. Clearly, since these are much more available... never mind Nova Cannons... it just means that we'll have guardsmen destroying AT-ATs with power weapons. The Empire is doomed.
An AU is an "Astronomical Unit", meaning a unit 1000km across, not... planetary in size, however you arrived at that conclusion. That's not "whole fleet in size", or even remotely close, and reloading a Nova Cannon takes hours (combat turns in BFG are each thirty minutes long "in universe"). Now, if you happen to be on the ship that gets hit by a Nova Cannon, yes, you're more fethed than Fulgrim's latest toy, or if you are within 3AU of that ship, you're also basically fethed, since you're caught in the blast-radius of the cannon (though your ship may survive, just be very heavily damaged) Then again, so was everyone onboard that Mon Cal cruiser that ate the DS2's first shot... which has a much higher rate of fire than a Nova Cannon.
Then, of course, there's actually aiming the damned thing. It's a prow-pointing weapon that runs along the spine of the ship. If you're fighting, say, Eldar, you will almost never get that behemoth to come about in time before the Eldar are on your flanks and raining plasma into your eyes. Necrons are much the same story, their ships are faster and more maneuverable than anything the Imperium fields... and they regenerate... and pack even scarier firepower.
Forget what dude up there said, there's not "thousands of sectors" in the Imperium with sector fleets at full strength. Many of the Sectors the Imperium lays claim to are devoid of human presence, save for some Feral World with a Planetary Governor residing in a star fortress in orbit, or some half-forgotten Mechanicus facility orbiting a dying star for research purposes and various Inquisitorial black-ops projects. Further, the Imperium just isn't that big; it lays claim to 1 million worlds which is only 1% of all the stars in the galaxy (less any the Necrons have snuffed lately), and we know that the Imperium has *many* systems it claims with multiple worlds orbiting a single star (such as the Cadian system), and multiple multi-planet stars within single Sectors. It's also got sectors so ravaged in recent warfare that their Sector Fleets are down to a couple tug-boats, four laundry-haulers and a conscripted pleasure-yacht (again, Cadia). Feasibly, there's a couple hundred Sectors in the Imperium, with vast reaches of Wild Space between each one.
Last but not least? There's 50 to 75 vessels in a full-strength Sector Battlefleet of all classes of ships. So for every battleship, you've got 2 to 5 escorts, like a Sword-class Frigate, destroyers, massive troop-haulers for the ground troops (no, the IG *cannot* transport its own people from planet to planet), corvettes, so on and so forth. Let's not forget that the Mars-class battle-cruiser is among the largest of vessels the Imperium constructs, with only the Grand Cruiser and Battleship-class being larger classes of vessels (and Grand Cruisers are mostly relics at this point, the class having been phased out in favor of the battle-cruiser). So at the end of the day? Each of those Sector Battlefleets might have 5 ships that are even capable of carrying a Nova Cannon. The rest of those ships in the fleet aren't redundant, they all serve a vital role. Those smaller vessels serve as a screen and escort for the larger vessels, protecting it from enemy craft while they set up to bring the Nova Cannon (or whatever else they pack) to bear, while others are recovery vessels, supply-haulers, Mechanicus repair vessels, and so on. A capital ship without an escort or a fighter-screen is a sitting duck, just asking to get boarded and taken prize.
Though, yes, you could destroy an AT-AT with a power weapon. They're on par with a lightsaber, which we saw Luke use to carve into one in ESB. Why the hell he didn't just cut one of its feet off, I don't know, but I suppose it was more visually-interesting to climb up it and cut its belly open. For 40k, a set of Lightning Claws and a Space Marine on a bike would be all you need. Zip by, take the ankle out, maybe the other on the same side if the target presents itself, AT-AT falls over. You could attain the same results with a melta-bomb or a missile launcher firing a melta-rocket, though with such a weapon I would go for the head.
No, an AU is a clearly defined measurement of approx 150 million KM. (the distance from the sun to the earth in old money). Please stop using AU as your definition isn't everyone else's.
Re the sector fleets. That number of 50 to 75 ships only count the warp capable fighting ships, and doesn't include the non warp capable system ships. The tug boats and laundry haulers that you describe. IIRC the ratio is 1 BS to 3 Cruisers to 6 Escorts. So for a fleet of 70 ships, 28 of them are capable of carrying a nova cannon. That's 40% of the fleet.
So no, a nova cannon is not a rare artefact, but a rather common one.
@keezus - you are absolutely right about the inconsistency and the absurdity of scale of 40k writing. In (pseudo-)reality, like you said, if you can't win in space, the planetary battle should be meaningless.
But... this kind of goes along with the nonsensical nature of 40k writing.
There are places like Cadia, where it's mostly overrun by Chaos, but space is completely controlled by the Imperium. I mean, you'd think it'd be easy to evacuate your people (or not, there's several trillion waiting to repopulate it anyhow), burn the planet to a crisp from orbit and then fix it up after. But this doesn't happen Instead, they constantly fight on the ground.
In fact, in 40k, *most* battles should be pointless, as the space-based weapons are just far too powerful for single marines, primarchs, avatars, and all that to even matter. The whole void shield thing is also contradictory. If they're strong enough to stave off planetary bombardment by weapons potentially powerful enough to blow up, well, a planet, it should be impossible to successfully assault a fortress city with any amount of ground troops and siege robots.... RIGHT?
In terms of the AT-AT, this is one of the most ridiculous constructs ever to hit science fiction, because who in their right mind would build a weapons platform like that? You know, when you have technology to make the top platform just float (like jabba's barge), instead of being supported by spindly legs. But it doesn't matter, because they're just THAT awesome
With a lot of this stuff, it's not so much a suspension of reality that you need to enjoy it, but a suspension of logic
Talys wrote: @keezus - you are absolutely right about the inconsistency and the absurdity of scale of 40k writing. In (pseudo-)reality, like you said, if you can't win in space, the planetary battle should be meaningless.
But... this kind of goes along with the nonsensical nature of 40k writing.
There are places like Cadia, where it's mostly overrun by Chaos, but space is completely controlled by the Imperium. I mean, you'd think it'd be easy to evacuate your people (or not, there's several trillion waiting to repopulate it anyhow), burn the planet to a crisp from orbit and then fix it up after. But this doesn't happen Instead, they constantly fight on the ground.
In fact, in 40k, *most* battles should be pointless, as the space-based weapons are just far too powerful for single marines, primarchs, avatars, and all that to even matter. The whole void shield thing is also contradictory. If they're strong enough to stave off planetary bombardment by weapons potentially powerful enough to blow up, well, a planet, it should be impossible to successfully assault a fortress city with any amount of ground troops and siege robots.... RIGHT?
In terms of the AT-AT, this is one of the most ridiculous constructs ever to hit science fiction, because who in their right mind would build a weapons platform like that? You know, when you have technology to make the top platform just float (like jabba's barge), instead of being supported by spindly legs. But it doesn't matter, because they're just THAT awesome
With a lot of this stuff, it's not so much a suspension of reality that you need to enjoy it, but a suspension of logic
I think the reason why they don't just nuke Cadia to oblivion is because there is irreparable hardware they want to keep down there.
Probably have something to do with the Pylons.
Sort of like why they don't nuke everything in Dropzone Commander; there are things they want to keep, and nuking the site from orbit would be counterproductive.
Also, I thought they already evacuated Cadia? Isn't everyone down there meant to be a soldier?
Talys wrote: In terms of the AT-AT, this is one of the most ridiculous constructs ever to hit science fiction, because who in their right mind would build a weapons platform like that? You know, when you have technology to make the top platform just float (like jabba's barge), instead of being supported by spindly legs. But it doesn't matter, because they're just THAT awesome
There are a couple of different reasons why making the AT-AT a skimmer would not work.
1. In some environments (such as the Forest Moon of Endor) a large bulky skimmer would not be useful and forced to hover around above the trees instead of just crushing the trees with its feet.
2. In TPM, at the Battle of Naboo, the AATs open fire (ineffectively) against the Gungan shields. At which point the MTTs unload the droids who have no problem walking through. This implies that shields can wreck havoc with skimmers. Otherwise the AATs would have just flown in (or in the case of Hoth the Imps would have sent in TIE Bombers to destroy the shield.
Though I do recall mention of a skimmer version of AT-ATs but can't remember where.
Talys wrote: With a lot of this stuff, it's not so much a suspension of reality that you need to enjoy it, but a suspension of logic
I think you hit the nail on the head. 40 is essentially WORLD WAR I... IN SPACE. Even by WWII, stupid crap like trench warfare, tanks without proper suspensions and battleships being the kings of the ocean had become obsolete. The writers basically took WWI era tech, put it in space and then described everything as being the most super awesome, without any thought to what happens when opposing super awesome meets. (i.e. irresistible force vs immovable object). And then there's ORKS, who are essentially super space ramshackle hillbillies, and the only remaining throwback race from the old days of Squats and mohawk Eldar.
There are only two fluff reasons why the IoM engages in land battles... logic-wise. Assaulting Xenos planets, its more like: Wipe out their space assets, proceed to Exterminatus.
1. Invasion Force / Task Force: To root out a xenos/chaos infestation on a world that has STRATEGIC VALUE. IMHO, this would be every world the Imperium holds, though some would be more valuable than others... Forgeworlds typically having STRATEGIC VALUE ABSOLUTE... and must be held at all costs.
2. Planetary Defense Force: To repel alien invaders when the local system fleet is overwhelmed and the Imperial Sector Fleet needs to be mustered to combat them in space. Reaction times can be quite slow, or quite fast, depending on the speed at which the writer requires.
Note: Even in the fluff, the Eldar / Dark Eldar only do surgical strikes. The Tyranids descend on a planet to NOM it, irrespective of whether it has won space, and the Orks just don't know any better.
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Psienesis wrote: An AU is an "Astronomical Unit", meaning a unit 1000km across, not... planetary in size, however you arrived at that conclusion. That's not "whole fleet in size", or even remotely close, and reloading a Nova Cannon takes hours (combat turns in BFG are each thirty minutes long "in universe"). Now, if you happen to be on the ship that gets hit by a Nova Cannon, yes, you're more fethed than Fulgrim's latest toy, or if you are within 3AU of that ship, you're also basically fethed, since you're caught in the blast-radius of the cannon (though your ship may survive, just be very heavily damaged) Then again, so was everyone onboard that Mon Cal cruiser that ate the DS2's first shot... which has a much higher rate of fire than a Nova Cannon.
Niggle about the novacannon blast radius:
The Nova Cannon itself is massive; the barrel is the length of all but the largest Imperial vessels. The projectiles have a diameter of at least 50 metres and are fired at close to light speed after being accelerated by gravimetric coils. When the projectile has travelled the predetermined distance, the warhead implodes with a force equivalent to several plasma bombs. This creates a blast zone the size of a small planet, powerful enough to destroy a Light Cruiser in a single hit or cripple even a Battleship.
Here's another part that I find pretty funny:
The primary effect of the Nova Cannon is derived from the explosive force of its projectile, which is produced by an unknown method, though it is presumably a very large thermonuclear fusion warhead. Due to the lethal nature of their warheads, Nova Cannon shells are not armed for a fraction of a second after firing, allowing them to travel many tens of thousands of kilometres through the void before they become truly deadly. For these reasons, a Nova Cannon is only fired from an Imperial warship according to specific rules which do not apply to other naval weapons.
THERMONUCLEAR FUSION WARHEAD?!??? I don't think that the 40k writers understand fusion the way it actually works. If we really boil it down, the laws of physics don't support how the fluff explains weapon works. Fusion is not some sort of infinite energy generator, considering that the projectile is moving at light speed, it would have to be a stupendously powerful explosion to overcome the kinetic potential of even 0.5C. There's a reason why in many other sci-fi universes, they've moved beyond fusion to anti-matter / matter annihilation and zero point energy / artificial singularities for their sci-fi witchcraft.
Mars Pattern Nova Cannon - Though Nova Cannons are quite rare, even by standards of starship construction, the Mars Pattern is the most common construction template. These massive cannons -- hundreds of metres in length -- fire an enormous shell that echoes a traditional explosive warhead, though on a much larger scale. These shells are accelerated to near relativistic velocities, causing an explosion that detonates with more force than dozens of plasma warheads.
Making a shell go fast != super explosion...
Anyhow... it's irrelevant... since they are enabled by super-high-technology unknowable and unfathomable to our (my) pedestrian 21st century brain. All we need to know is that there are many such light speed boom guns.
Forget what dude up there said, there's not "thousands of sectors" in the Imperium with sector fleets at full strength. Many of the Sectors the Imperium lays claim to are devoid of human presence, save for some Feral World with a Planetary Governor residing in a star fortress in orbit, or some half-forgotten Mechanicus facility orbiting a dying star for research purposes and various Inquisitorial black-ops projects. Further, the Imperium just isn't that big; it lays claim to 1 million worlds which is only 1% of all the stars in the galaxy (less any the Necrons have snuffed lately), and we know that the Imperium has *many* systems it claims with multiple worlds orbiting a single star (such as the Cadian system), and multiple multi-planet stars within single Sectors. It's also got sectors so ravaged in recent warfare that their Sector Fleets are down to a couple tug-boats, four laundry-haulers and a conscripted pleasure-yacht (again, Cadia). Feasibly, there's a couple hundred Sectors in the Imperium, with vast reaches of Wild Space between each one.
Last but not least? There's 50 to 75 vessels in a full-strength Sector Battlefleet of all classes of ships. So for every battleship, you've got 2 to 5 escorts, like a Sword-class Frigate, destroyers, massive troop-haulers for the ground troops (no, the IG *cannot* transport its own people from planet to planet), corvettes, so on and so forth. Let's not forget that the Mars-class battle-cruiser is among the largest of vessels the Imperium constructs, with only the Grand Cruiser and Battleship-class being larger classes of vessels (and Grand Cruisers are mostly relics at this point, the class having been phased out in favor of the battle-cruiser). So at the end of the day? Each of those Sector Battlefleets might have 5 ships that are even capable of carrying a Nova Cannon. The rest of those ships in the fleet aren't redundant, they all serve a vital role. Those smaller vessels serve as a screen and escort for the larger vessels, protecting it from enemy craft while they set up to bring the Nova Cannon (or whatever else they pack) to bear, while others are recovery vessels, supply-haulers, Mechanicus repair vessels, and so on. A capital ship without an escort or a fighter-screen is a sitting duck, just asking to get boarded and taken prize.
Alright dude, what is your justification for saying the Imperium only has a couple hundred sectors? A million worlds is small relative to the number of stars, but only a tiny fraction of stars are going to have planets in the first place. Let alone inhabitable planets. Besides, Sectors are a measurement of space, not populated worlds. A sector with 1 inhabited planet is just as large as one with 10. And you do realize that the 50-75 ships is an average across all sectors. So you can multiply that by the estimated number of sectors to get an approximate fleet strength.
Given the sheer size of the galaxy, even if the imperium only controls a tiny fraction they're going to have thousands upon thousands of sectors. Do some math, the galaxy is effing huge.
Talys wrote: In terms of the AT-AT, this is one of the most ridiculous constructs ever to hit science fiction, because who in their right mind would build a weapons platform like that? You know, when you have technology to make the top platform just float (like jabba's barge), instead of being supported by spindly legs. But it doesn't matter, because they're just THAT awesome
The Imperial Handbook states:
Walkers have advantages over treaded and repulsorlift vehicles, evidenced by their designation as all terrain. Walkers can react to changing surface conditions and shift their footing as a soldier would. Yet they remain firmly connected to the ground to brace against the recoil of their heavy weapons. Walkers can operate freely when atmospheric conditions-such as those on Jabiim or Drongar-prohibit the operation of repulsorlifts. They are immune to anti-repulsorlift jammers.
A weapon which gets trivially destroyed, just like the previous 2 super weapons. And unlike the Death Stars this one is stationary. Its objectively worse overall.
Grey Templar wrote: A weapon which gets trivially destroyed, just like the previous 2 super weapons. And unlike the Death Stars this one is stationary. Its objectively worse overall.
Is there evidence that this superweapon is stationary? There have been planets that are able to travel through both real and hyperspace (Source: The Crystal Star).
Grey Templar wrote: A weapon which gets trivially destroyed, just like the previous 2 super weapons. And unlike the Death Stars this one is stationary. Its objectively worse overall.
Is there evidence that this superweapon is stationary? There have been planets that are able to travel through both real and hyperspace (Source: The Crystal Star).
Also, it doesn't need to move as a result of its unlimited range.
Grey Templar wrote: A weapon which gets trivially destroyed, just like the previous 2 super weapons. And unlike the Death Stars this one is stationary. Its objectively worse overall.
Is there evidence that this superweapon is stationary? There have been planets that are able to travel through both real and hyperspace (Source: The Crystal Star).
Also, it doesn't need to move as a result of its unlimited range.
But it does need to move to find fuel to fire the weapon. As portrayed in the film it has 2 uses then you have a really ugly planet.
Grey Templar wrote: A weapon which gets trivially destroyed, just like the previous 2 super weapons. And unlike the Death Stars this one is stationary. Its objectively worse overall.
Is there evidence that this superweapon is stationary? There have been planets that are able to travel through both real and hyperspace (Source: The Crystal Star).
We would need evidence that it can move first, otherwise being a planet its kinda stuck where it is. Given the EU is gone(good riddance) we have zero ability to claim a planet could be moved through hyperspace.
Also, it doesn't need to move as a result of its unlimited range.
Is this true? Did they say it had unlimited range? Or is it maybe just capable of hitting half the planets in the galaxy? Or are we going to say its capable of hitting any point in the entire universe?
Still doesn't change the fact its a stationary target. It cannot run, and using it leaves a massive red trail pointing right to it.
Grey Templar wrote: Given the EU is gone(good riddance) we have zero ability to claim a planet could be moved through hyperspace.
EU is not gone. It's just not currently considered canon. However, even then OP said EU was an acceptable source for this discussion.
I'm not claiming it can move. I'm claiming there is the possibility of moving, either under it's own powers, or via external source such as Centerpoint Station.
Grey Templar wrote: We would need evidence that it can move first, otherwise being a planet its kinda stuck where it is. Given the EU is gone(good riddance) we have zero ability to claim a planet could be moved through hyperspace.
Is this true? Did they say it had unlimited range? Or is it maybe just capable of hitting half the planets in the galaxy? Or are we going to say its capable of hitting any point in the entire universe?
Still doesn't change the fact its a stationary target. It cannot run, and using it leaves a massive red trail pointing right to it.
Couple of points. 1 yes it has to be able to move, how many suns could a system actually have? The film seemed to imply that it destroyed the sun in order to charge the weapon. 2. On the question of range again yes it seemed to have unlimited range. Certainly it fired from a sunless system into a lit system, and again when firing at the resistance it had extinguished the sun, but the planet was still it by sunlight. 3. Who cares if it was stationary, the force field protecting it could only be penetrated by something that was travelling faster than light. A feat the Imperium cannot do.
Grey Templar wrote: We would need evidence that it can move first, otherwise being a planet its kinda stuck where it is. Given the EU is gone(good riddance) we have zero ability to claim a planet could be moved through hyperspace.
Is this true? Did they say it had unlimited range? Or is it maybe just capable of hitting half the planets in the galaxy? Or are we going to say its capable of hitting any point in the entire universe?
Still doesn't change the fact its a stationary target. It cannot run, and using it leaves a massive red trail pointing right to it.
Couple of points. 1 yes it has to be able to move, how many suns could a system actually have? The film seemed to imply that it destroyed the sun in order to charge the weapon. 2. On the question of range again yes it seemed to have unlimited range. Certainly it fired from a sunless system into a lit system, and again when firing at the resistance it had extinguished the sun, but the planet was still it by sunlight. 3. Who cares if it was stationary, the force field protecting it could only be penetrated by something that was travelling faster than light. A feat the Imperium cannot do.
1) Maybe it can consume a star outside of its current system. They didn't really explain it very well. Or maybe they really only could get 3-4 shots by consuming the nearby stars and were counting on that being enough to win the war.
2) Never did they say what its range was. Its definitely really long, but how long is it?
3) The reason the Falcon did their hyperspace stunt was so they would be undetected, not that they couldn't get through. The X-wings were able to get down to the planet, what they needed was for the shields on the heat modulator thingy to be down so they had a chance of damaging it. The Imperium wouldn't care about that. They kill planets on a daily basis, fairly casually. Though its more likely that they simply land a few million guardsmen on the base and capture it, the Mechanicus would love to get their hands on that. And we know Star Wars computers aren't the most secure things, given any nerf-herder seems to be able to hack military grade computers with only moderate difficulty.
Really the only reason the Imperium doesn't kill planets more often is that planets are valuable. Any of their fleets could wipe out a planet without difficulty, but that would be irresponsible and wasteful.
The X Wings were able to descend on to the planet because the shields were lowered by Captain Phasma. (Why they didn't raise them again is another issue). The Falcon went through the shields because at lightspeed, they fit between the shield refresh. Han explicitly says this... so its a bit of a stretch to for you to say that it was for stealth purposes only.
In addition, the Imperium would be unable to lay siege to Starkiller Base without knowing its location.
Once known, they would have to make a warp jump of indeterminate duration to go there. Given that Starkiller Base is mobile... there is no certainty that the base will be there when the Imperial Strike Force arrives.
You'll have to give an example of a nerf herder hacking. I don't recall this happening in the canon.
The X Wings were able to descend on to the planet because the shields were lowered by Captain Phasma. (Why they didn't raise them again is another issue). The Falcon went through the shields because at lightspeed, they fit between the shield refresh. Han explicitly says this... so its a bit of a stretch to for you to say that it was for stealth purposes only.
In addition, the Imperium would be unable to lay siege to Starkiller Base without knowing its location.
Once known, they would have to make a warp jump of indeterminate duration to go there. Given that Starkiller Base is mobile... there is no certainty that the base will be there when the Imperial Strike Force arrives.
You'll have to give an example of a nerf herder hacking. I don't recall this happening in the canon.
No, the shields were the shields protecting the heat sink thingy. The entire planet wasn't encased in shields.
And NO, there is zero evidence that Starkiller base had any kind of mobility. Till someone says it had a hyperdrive it has none and cannot move.
No, the shields were the shields protecting the heat sink thingy. The entire planet wasn't encased in shields.
And NO, there is zero evidence that Starkiller base had any kind of mobility. Till someone says it had a hyperdrive it has none and cannot move.
Re shields: Incorrect. The scene clearly shows Phasma dropping a planetary shield. If it was simply the heat sink that was encased there's no need for Hans' entry stunt. They could simply land on the planet and walk in, exactly the way the Empire did on Hoth.
Granted there's no evidence that SKB can move, but it does destroy the sun. It's stretching credulity to believe they'd build a weapon of that scale to fire two shots. It either has to move or it has to be able to draw energy from other stars (both ideas are absurd mind you).
As to the range of the gun, official maps put Hosnian Prime not too far from Corellia, near the core. Starkiller Base is located in the Unknown Regions, on the other side of the core from Hosnian Prime. Which means the demonstrated range- but no necessarily maximum- is at around 55 light years. It is shooting from the edge of the galaxy to a little over half way across it.
Plus all the other superweapons in the Empire, for example shock drums, mass shadow generators, torpedo spheres, visual electromagnetic intensifires, orbital nightcloaks, superlaser star destroyers, metal crystal phase shifters, omega frosts, world devastators and Death Stars.
No, the shields were the shields protecting the heat sink thingy. The entire planet wasn't encased in shields.
And NO, there is zero evidence that Starkiller base had any kind of mobility. Till someone says it had a hyperdrive it has none and cannot move.
Re shields: Incorrect. The scene clearly shows Phasma dropping a planetary shield. If it was simply the heat sink that was encased there's no need for Hans' entry stunt. They could simply land on the planet and walk in, exactly the way the Empire did on Hoth.
Granted there's no evidence that SKB can move, but it does destroy the sun. It's stretching credulity to believe they'd build a weapon of that scale to fire two shots. It either has to move or it has to be able to draw energy from other stars (both ideas are absurd mind you).
As to the range of the gun, official maps put Hosnian Prime not too far from Corellia, near the core. Starkiller Base is located in the Unknown Regions, on the other side of the core from Hosnian Prime. Which means the demonstrated range- but no necessarily maximum- is at around 55 light years. It is shooting from the edge of the galaxy to a little over half way across it.
There is a contradiction between what that screen shows and what they actually said in the movie.
And lol, only 55 lightyears? Is the Star Wars galaxy only 110 light years across?
I can't say I recall then saying the shield was exclusive to the heart sink. It's actually odd that a military base wouldn't have a planetary shield. Of course it's absurd the shield could be dropped without anyone noticing or taking action but that's about issue. Equally absurd such a critical facility would not have is own independent shield as well but hey.
My bad on the distance- the SW galaxy is about 100,000 light years across, slightly smaller than ours depending on which measurement you use. So it's 55,000 LY. Could be out has longer range but that's what we see.
@Grey Templar: That's a negatory. There is no contradiction. I believe that your recollection may be incorrect. Starkiller Base has a planetary shield. This is easily verifiable using the interwebs.
I think Kojiro is incorrect about the distance... he means 55k light years. The Star Wars galaxy is a 100k lightyear + galaxy per canon.
*ninja'd*
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Kojiro wrote: I can't say I recall then saying the shield was exclusive to the heart sink. It's actually odd that a military base wouldn't have a planetary shield. Of course it's absurd the shield could be dropped without anyone noticing or taking action but that's about issue. Equally absurd such a critical facility would not have is own independent shield as well but hey.
My bad on the distance- the SW galaxy is about 100,000 light years across, slightly smaller than ours depending on which measurement you use. So it's 55,000 LY. Could be out has longer range but that's what we see.
Spoiler:
To be fair... Looks like the First Order learned a thing or two from the failure of the Empire...
Hide the superweapon *check*
Use the superweapon to obliterate the enemy fleet before it is discovered *check*
Protect it with a planetary theatre shield generated from inside the shield. *check*
Armor the weak point, impervious to anything an X-Wing can carry? *check*
Under attack? Launch ALL THE FIGHTERS *check*
Going to blow up? RUN AWAY!???? *check*
Most importantly:
NO EWOKS ON THE PLANET?!???? *check* (I kid!)
Take away learning experience??? Have redundant shields. Have token fleet defense.
To be fair, the Resistance only blew up Starkiller Base due to hax.
Tyranids use them a lot and pump termagaunts and worse organisms into your ship whilst attached.
and that's with only about 1500-2000 marines and not being a Space borne Chapter.....
