Round 1: 1 Space Marine vs 1 Storm Trooper (Star Wars)
Round 2: 10 Space Marines vs 100 Storm Troopers
Round 3: 1 Space Marine Terminator vs 10 Emperor's Guard
Round 4: 1 Space Marine Chapter including vehicles vs Stormtrooper Regiment (2500 Stormtroopers plus vehicles)
Round 5: All resources from the Imperium (1 million Space Marines, billions of Guardsmen, and so on) vs all soldiers and military units portrayed in the Star Wars movies (Stormtroopers, Clones, Rebels, and so on)
Firstly, both sides have way too many forces to effectively deploy them all to a single system. You'd end up with troops and ships queuing like a theme park on holiday weekend.
Secondly, setting it in the SW galaxy puts the advantage on the empire.
IoM ships need to use the warp for interstellar travel and they won't have the astronomicon for guidance. Are they even going to be able to get to Hoth?
If you set it in the IoM galaxy (i.e. ours) then you reverse the situation until the empire manage to get hold of a good set of navigational data.
Clone/Storm Troopers can't even hit a target at 10 meters... The only reason they won the Clone Wars is because the battle droids were even worse at fighting No wonder the Empire was defeated by a bunch of rebels led by a farmer with a lightsaber.
It is not a fair fight because power levels diverge so wildly.
Round 1: Bolter round to the Stormtrooper's chest before he's even had time to line up a shot. Gets turned into a red stain on the ground.
Round 2: Stormtroopers gunned down. One or two lucky shots may incapacitate a Space Marine.
Round 3: Emperor's Guard whack their staves harmlessly on the Terminator's armor. They get turned into chunky salsa by his power fist.
Round 4: An entire drop pod assault obliterates the Regiment. Stormtroopers lose their entire command within a couple of minutes of the drop and the confused remnants are blown to pieces.
Round 5: Imperium wins. The Imperial Guard alone could mop up the Star Wars forces. Did you know the Grand Army of the Republic only had a couple of million fighting men at any one time? Pathetically low numbers.
As others have said, this isn't a fair fight in the slightest. For one thing, basically everyone in SW are running around with the equivalent of lasguns... except that you can conceivably see a blaster shot coming and dodge it. Comparatively, even a standard bolter will absolutely shred apart a Stormtrooper, while Stormtroopers will struggle to even hurt a Space Marine. Plus Space Marines are superhuman, whereas Storm Troopers are just trained individuals, but otherwise normal humans (or clones for some of them). Add in the fact that Space Marines like getting up close whereas Stormtroopers don't even have melee protection, and standard Stormtroopers don't stand a chance. 40k technology is just significantly more advanced than the Empire's.
Throwing in Jedi/Sith would be a little more interesting though. In such a case, they would probably be on par with a talented 40k psyker armed with a power/force weapon. They would certainly take out quite a few Space Marines on their own, but Jedi and Sith are very limited throughout the Star Wars galaxy, especially during the Galactic Civil war period and even moreso compared to the number of Librarians available to the Space Marines (not to mention that even Guardsmen sergeants have access to power weapons, which can at least stand a chance vs a lightsaber).
Space battles would be a different story though. A standard Star Destroyer is comparable to an Imperium light cruiser and only a little smaller than a battleship. If we're talking a pure-Space Marine fleet though, then they just won't have the firepower or numbers to deal with an Imperial fleet without support from an Imperial fleet - Space Marines are meant to be ground-based force multipliers and their advantages are wasted in space. That's not even counting super-weapons such as the Death Star which the Empire has available. If space combat is put into play then it can shift the balance of the battle significantly, but you know that Space Marines would target the Death Star itself rather than be stupid enough to go onto a planet and then get blown up. They would also likely conduct boarding actions against the Imperials and, short of blowing up sections of the ship to stop the Marines, they won't have much to deal with them.
Bottom-line: I think that Space Marines would win just because Imperial technology is far beyond that of Star Wars.
The "Grand Army of the Republic" is usually quoted as being 3 million strong. 1 Space Marine can take more than 3 Stormtroopers. The Adeptus Astartes curbstomp the Empire on their lonesome.
Yeah, i think guard vs storm troopers would be more effective; guard have more boom boom but the Republic do have the air of speed. Also they both play with torches.
Imperium wins on the ground, the Empire wins in space. Star Wars ships are roughly comparable in firepower and durability, but have an obscene advantage in strategic mobility. A Star Wars ship can cross the entire galaxy in a matter of hours, with no concerns about being off-target or delayed for a few thousand years. The war would be over before the Imperium is even able to realize it has started, as key planets are destroyed by orbital bombardment and any attempt to deploy the Imperium's own ships is met with overwhelming force.
No but they need maps for hyperspace routes so they don't die, get lost or have a similar accident. They have no maps of the Imperium therefore no hyperdrive.
Once there are maps then they can go nuts.
Peregrine wrote: Imperium wins on the ground, the Empire wins in space. Star Wars ships are roughly comparable in firepower and durability, but have an obscene advantage in strategic mobility. A Star Wars ship can cross the entire galaxy in a matter of hours, with no concerns about being off-target or delayed for a few thousand years. The war would be over before the Imperium is even able to realize it has started, as key planets are destroyed by orbital bombardment and any attempt to deploy the Imperium's own ships is met with overwhelming force.
On the other hand, in Star Wars by the time of the Galactic Empire, about half of the galaxy still remained completely uncharted...
Spoiler:
Hyperspace travel in Star Wars is hardly without danger. It needs very precise calculations, which is why you can't just jump to an unknown or uncharted point. Or as Han Solo said:
"Without precise calculations, we'd fly right through a star, bounce too close to a supernova, and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"
Without proper star charts, the Empire isn't going to be able to travel anywhere.
On the other hand, in the Star Wars universe, the Imperium would face the same problem, since they can't travel through the Warp without the light of the Astronomican to lock onto.
asorel wrote: The "Grand Army of the Republic" is usually quoted as being 3 million strong. 1 Space Marine can take more than 3 Stormtroopers. The Adeptus Astartes curbstomp the Empire on their lonesome.
As badly scaled as 40k is, Star Wars is a franchise that is actually WAY worse. The clone wars began with 200,000 troops. That is pretty small even by modern standards on Earth, we don't even have a term for how pathetically small that is for a galaxy wide conflict.
pm713 wrote: Except the Star Wars ships can't actually go anywhere in the Imperium. So their ships can be as good as anything and be useless.
This is actually incorrect. The hyperdrives of the SW universe are equivalent to the inertialess drives of the Necrons, and do not utilize the Warp in anyway.
pm713 wrote: Except the Star Wars ships can't actually go anywhere in the Imperium. So their ships can be as good as anything and be useless.
This is actually incorrect. The hyperdrives of the SW universe are equivalent to the inertialess drives of the Necrons, and do not utilize the Warp in anyway.
In the "can't go anywhere" bit. You don't need a destination to engage your hyperdrive. The sensor systems tell you where all celestial bodies are within a given number of LY. You tell your astromech droid, or your nav-comp, to calculate the jump to the limit of your sensors, and you jump. Rinse, repeat.
It's not fast, but SW sensor technology is superior to that of 40K, by an extremely large margin. In so doing, you will eventually arrive at a populated system or be able to get a pretty good "map" of the sector, not to mention identify Forge and Hive Worlds by the background "noise" of their industrial centers, radio communications, and so forth.
Iron_Captain wrote: Clone/Storm Troopers can't even hit a target at 10 meters... The only reason they won the Clone Wars is because the battle droids were even worse at fighting No wonder the Empire was defeated by a bunch of rebels led by a farmer with a lightsaber.
Hey now, in the American Revolution the British Empire was beaten by a bunch of rebels led by a farmer with false teeth.
Styormtroopers are roughly IG quality\equivalent on a per body basis. but the Imperium has many, MANY more. The SM would ignore the conflict on the ground - leaving that to the Guard, and take the Empire's ships away via boarding actions.
carldooley wrote: Styormtroopers are roughly IG quality\equivalent on a per body basis. but the Imperium has many, MANY more. The SM would ignore the conflict on the ground - leaving that to the Guard, and take the Empire's ships away via boarding actions.
Stormtroopers are more equivalent to Stormtroopers - well, Scions - actually.
Thing is, Stormtroopers know what will happen if their blaster bolts actually go near anyone wielding a lightsaber, so they miss on purpose.
The blasters of SW, although they are plasma weapons, have terrible range in-universe compared to real-world slugthrowers (and even in-universe slugthrowers), and are wildly inaccurate in most cases.
Turns out, throwing a round ball of plasma at someone is subject to all kinds of atmospheric effects that can cause shots to drift wildly.
Psienesis wrote: In the "can't go anywhere" bit. You don't need a destination to engage your hyperdrive. The sensor systems tell you where all celestial bodies are within a given number of LY. You tell your astromech droid, or your nav-comp, to calculate the jump to the limit of your sensors, and you jump. Rinse, repeat.
It's not fast, but SW sensor technology is superior to that of 40K, by an extremely large margin. In so doing, you will eventually arrive at a populated system or be able to get a pretty good "map" of the sector, not to mention identify Forge and Hive Worlds by the background "noise" of their industrial centers, radio communications, and so forth.
That is not true. Star Wars hyperdrives need nav computers to function (pilots are not able to make the complicated calculation on their own) and nav computers need the proper star charts to function. Sensors do not work in hyperspace, and even if they did, the speed would be too fast. The moment they'd detect an object you'd already be right in the middle of it. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperspace#Navigation
Technically, you could just insert random coordinates into your nav computer, but doing so would be extremely dangerous and stupid. Even if you'd survive, you would likely just end up in empty space.
Space Marines could be naked with no weapons and still win all of those, but add the layers of plasteel/adamantium/ceramite plus their various weapons and vehicles and this is an absolute bloodbath
Psienesis wrote: In the "can't go anywhere" bit. You don't need a destination to engage your hyperdrive. The sensor systems tell you where all celestial bodies are within a given number of LY. You tell your astromech droid, or your nav-comp, to calculate the jump to the limit of your sensors, and you jump. Rinse, repeat.
It's not fast, but SW sensor technology is superior to that of 40K, by an extremely large margin. In so doing, you will eventually arrive at a populated system or be able to get a pretty good "map" of the sector, not to mention identify Forge and Hive Worlds by the background "noise" of their industrial centers, radio communications, and so forth.
That is not true. Star Wars hyperdrives need nav computers to function (pilots are not able to make the complicated calculation on their own) and nav computers need the proper star charts to function. Sensors do not work in hyperspace, and even if they did, the speed would be too fast. The moment they'd detect an object you'd already be right in the middle of it.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperspace#Navigation
Technically, you could just insert random coordinates into your nav computer, but doing so would be extremely dangerous and stupid. Even if you'd survive, you would likely just end up in empty space.
Han Solo and Chewbacca both program their nav-comps manually. Astromech droids make it simpler, but it is possible to do the math yourself (insanely risky, however).
You don't use the sensors while in transit. You scan the area, find a blank spot, jump to it, drop out, scan again, rinse, repeat.
Psienesis wrote: In the "can't go anywhere" bit. You don't need a destination to engage your hyperdrive. The sensor systems tell you where all celestial bodies are within a given number of LY. You tell your astromech droid, or your nav-comp, to calculate the jump to the limit of your sensors, and you jump. Rinse, repeat.
It's not fast, but SW sensor technology is superior to that of 40K, by an extremely large margin. In so doing, you will eventually arrive at a populated system or be able to get a pretty good "map" of the sector, not to mention identify Forge and Hive Worlds by the background "noise" of their industrial centers, radio communications, and so forth.
That is not true. Star Wars hyperdrives need nav computers to function (pilots are not able to make the complicated calculation on their own) and nav computers need the proper star charts to function. Sensors do not work in hyperspace, and even if they did, the speed would be too fast. The moment they'd detect an object you'd already be right in the middle of it. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperspace#Navigation
Technically, you could just insert random coordinates into your nav computer, but doing so would be extremely dangerous and stupid. Even if you'd survive, you would likely just end up in empty space.
Han Solo and Chewbacca both program their nav-comps manually. Astromech droids make it simpler, but it is possible to do the math yourself (insanely risky, however).
You don't use the sensors while in transit. You scan the area, find a blank spot, jump to it, drop out, scan again, rinse, repeat.
The nav computer still does the calculating for Han and Chewie, though. Some can fly without nav computer, but they do use it. And that is not how sensors work in Star Wars. You can't just scan places that are many lightyears away and then jump there (the Millennium Falcon's sensors only had a range of half a million kilometres, a light year is about 9 trillion kilometres). The only way to get to an uncharted place is to send out probes to chart those places and any hazards along the way. This is why exploration in Star Wars is so slow and half of the galaxy hasn't even been discovered yet.
Psienesis wrote: In the "can't go anywhere" bit. You don't need a destination to engage your hyperdrive. The sensor systems tell you where all celestial bodies are within a given number of LY. You tell your astromech droid, or your nav-comp, to calculate the jump to the limit of your sensors, and you jump. Rinse, repeat.
It's not fast, but SW sensor technology is superior to that of 40K, by an extremely large margin. In so doing, you will eventually arrive at a populated system or be able to get a pretty good "map" of the sector, not to mention identify Forge and Hive Worlds by the background "noise" of their industrial centers, radio communications, and so forth.
That is not true. Star Wars hyperdrives need nav computers to function (pilots are not able to make the complicated calculation on their own) and nav computers need the proper star charts to function. Sensors do not work in hyperspace, and even if they did, the speed would be too fast. The moment they'd detect an object you'd already be right in the middle of it.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperspace#Navigation
Technically, you could just insert random coordinates into your nav computer, but doing so would be extremely dangerous and stupid. Even if you'd survive, you would likely just end up in empty space.
Han Solo and Chewbacca both program their nav-comps manually. Astromech droids make it simpler, but it is possible to do the math yourself (insanely risky, however).
You don't use the sensors while in transit. You scan the area, find a blank spot, jump to it, drop out, scan again, rinse, repeat.
The nav computer still does the calculating for Han and Chewie, though. Some can fly without nav computer, but they do use it.
And that is not how sensors work in Star Wars. You can't just scan places that are many lightyears away and then jump there (the Millennium Falcon's sensors only had a range of half a million kilometres, a light year is about 9 trillion kilometres). The only way to get to an uncharted place is to send out probes to chart those places and any hazards along the way. This is why exploration in Star Wars is so slow and half of the galaxy hasn't even been discovered yet.
The Falcon is a light frigate, and one of the smallest examples of that class of ship in the setting. A SSD, as well as many other classes of ships has much greater sensor range but what you're talking about is a ship's ability to detect things more or less its own size, not mass-shadows like planets and stars (which you can see from millions of LY away. Go outside at night and look at the sky, there you go.). For the purposes of this exercise, that's all you're worried about. "If I make this jump, will I hit the mass-shadow of a planet, star, or other massive object? No? Hit it." Smaller objects (like other ships) don't normally have the mass to create a shadow in hyperspace worth worrying about (Interdictors being the obvious exception).
Half the galaxy is not unexplored in SW. There's a dwarf galaxy that is currently merging with the main SW galaxy (the Rishi Drift, descending from above the galactic plane, and canted almost perpendicular to it) which is largely unexplored, but the only part of the main galaxy that is virtually unexplored is the aptly-named Unknown Region on the western edge of the galaxy. The Core, Hutt Space, the Seat of the Empire, the Mid-Rim and the Outer Rim are all *quite* mapped and settled, excepting the Outer Rim which, while settled, is some of the most-recently discovered regions in space (despite there being worlds there with civilizations thousands of years old).
But, for purposes of this exercise, using one or the other's settings means the invading group loses. The Imperium in the SW galaxy? There's no Warp. There's no Astronomican. They cannot Navigate, because their Navigators are blind. Their psykers are useless because there's no Warp. They sit in deep space, having only standard, sub-luminal drives, and eventually starve.
Psienesis wrote: In the "can't go anywhere" bit. You don't need a destination to engage your hyperdrive. The sensor systems tell you where all celestial bodies are within a given number of LY. You tell your astromech droid, or your nav-comp, to calculate the jump to the limit of your sensors, and you jump. Rinse, repeat.
It's not fast, but SW sensor technology is superior to that of 40K, by an extremely large margin. In so doing, you will eventually arrive at a populated system or be able to get a pretty good "map" of the sector, not to mention identify Forge and Hive Worlds by the background "noise" of their industrial centers, radio communications, and so forth.
If the Empires spies manage to steal a good set of navigational data then they're back to normal operation.
The Imperium isn't going to be setting up another astronomicon...
Matthew wrote: Round 1: 1 Space Marine vs 1 Storm Trooper (Star Wars)
Round 2: 10 Space Marines vs 100 Storm Troopers
Round 3: 1 Space Marine Terminator vs 10 Emperor's Guard
Round 4: 1 Space Marine Chapter including vehicles vs Stormtrooper Regiment (2500 Stormtroopers plus vehicles)
Round 5: All resources from the Imperium (1 million Space Marines, billions of Guardsmen, and so on) vs all soldiers and military units portrayed in the Star Wars movies (Stormtroopers, Clones, Rebels, and so on)
Location: The Hoth system.
GO!
I'm going to be really picky here, because I love me some Star Wars:
Round 1: What generation are we talking? BBY or ABY? Are they a clone trooper or the rank and file conscripts? Clone trooper is the only fair match, both Clones and Astartes are bred for war, and are genetically superior to the average rank and file. A Stormtrooper is more akin to a guardsmen. (For instance, Captain Rex and Commander Cody in Clone Wars are F'ing awesome)
Round 2: This depends on what Round 1 is based on, 100 Astartes V 100 Clones, that's a good match right there. Otherwise you might aswell just pitch 10 Astartes to 100 IG (see above)
Round 3: Do you know what the Emperor's Guard are? I'm guessing not, because a single one can easily handle a single terminator. These are the Elite of the Elite, trained in all arts of warfare including Saber techniques, blasters, etc. They can stand up against Sith Lords and Jedi Masters fyi.
Round 4: I'm going to keep saying this, Stormtroopers are the IG of the SW universe, so yeah...
Round 5: Entire of Imperium Vs All known forces of the SW "Lucas" canon? 2 Death Stars + Non-idiot-FTL travel + Palpatine + Samuel L Jackson = SW Win. Now, you open this up to all EU canon, and SW won't even break a sweat
Nah, in False Emperor, the Emperor's Guard are carved through like butter. They're good against mooks, even really good mooks, but they've nothing against a Space Marine.
Psienesis wrote: Nah, in False Emperor, the Emperor's Guard are carved through like butter. They're good against mooks, even really good mooks, but they've nothing against a Space Marine.
You mean the Flashpoint in SW:TOR? Because if so mobs in a dungeon don't really count (I mean c'mon, Malgus and Revan being brought down by 5 people? Silliness).
In the lore, the Emperor's Guard are badasses, even Dark Council members are scared of them and they handily beat Dark Council members a few times with little effort.
Oh, and if we can use the EU (since 40K lore vs the sliver of SW lore in the films alone is unfair), Emperor Vitiate alone would destroy planets without an army, and not forgetting the Planet sized force storm Palpatine can conjure. Or the absolute martial prowess of Tulak Hord, or Exar Kun, or Mace Windu, who would put 99% of the 40K universe to shame. And as far as psykers go, Force users aren't prone to getting their minds destroyed by the warp for using their powers.
Although, SW characters V their 40K analogues would be far more interesting
Rogal Dorn V Obi Wan Kenobi, the two most defensive combatants in either canon slogging it out
Oh please, this again? WH40K wins hands down if it's a fight mano-a-mano (or a ground battle). Star Wars, even without preset navmaps, has so much faster FTL drive that space battles are decided before the IoM even knows they're in a space battle.
Ashiraya wrote: A more fair fight would be something like Eisenhorn VS Obi-Wan.
I am also pretty sure clone troopers are really not Space Marines...
I did think of Eisenhorn tbf.
Clone Troopers were cloned from the best stock available in the Galaxy, Jango Fett was a Mandolorian after all (And if there's one race of people possibly better at warfare then Space Marines, it's Mandolorians). They were artificially aged, the training was intense and started from when they were children, and they were good enough to take down Jedi Masters when Order 66 came about and during the Jedi Purge after.
And their equipment was the best available in the Republic at the time (unlike Stormtroopers, their armour could stop a blaster bolt ).
Ashiraya wrote: A more fair fight would be something like Eisenhorn VS Obi-Wan.
I am also pretty sure clone troopers are really not Space Marines...
I did think of Eisenhorn tbf.
Clone Troopers were cloned from the best stock available in the Galaxy, Jango Fett was a Mandolorian after all (And if there's one race of people possibly better at warfare then Space Marines, it's Mandolorians). They were artificially aged, the training was intense and started from when they were children, and they were good enough to take down Jedi Masters when Order 66 came about and during the Jedi Purge after.
And their equipment was the best available in the Republic at the time (unlike Stormtroopers, their armour could stop a blaster bolt ).
See the parallels?
Mandolorians, for all their prowess, are still humans. Astartes have training that is at least as tough, likely more so, and bioengineering on top of that. And stormtroopers are just the clone legions with a different aesthetic. Order 66 due to the clones having a great numerical advantage over their generals, and the benefit of a surprise attack.
Stormtroopers are not clones; the cloning facility on Kamino, along with the gene banks, were destroyed by the rebels not long after Palpatine took power. Also, the Emperor disbanded the clone troopers in favour of conscripting the Imperial populace.
Bioengineering aside, I think both Mandolorians and Astartes are evenly matched (The mandolorians don't bioengineer, but love them some cyber augments). The tipping point would be that Mandolorians also have access to one of the rarest things in the Star Wars universe; Mandolorian Iron, which is to Terminator armour as Terminator armour is to Ork T-shirts.
But hey, I see Mandolorians and Astartes getting along very well; Mandolorian Astartes, the most OP force ever made!
Completely different universes and settings, along with degrees of power and technology levels. 40k setting is just way too advanced compared to SW's
E.g - SW's Death Star was the defining terror weapon and was regarded as the epitome of technology... and there was one in the Galaxy. Any Astartes Battle Barge can do exactly the same thing, but may take just a tad longer. On the other hand a Blackstone Fortress can wipe out entire systems.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Completely different universes and settings, along with degrees of power and technology levels. 40k setting is just way too advanced compared to SW's
E.g - SW's Death Star was the defining terror weapon and was regarded as the epitome of technology... and there was one in the Galaxy. Any Astartes Battle Barge can do exactly the same thing, but may take just a tad longer. On the other hand a Blackstone Fortress can wipe out entire systems.
Agreed. I think 40k weapons would wipe the floor with SW, especially when the Virus Bombs come out to play
we are getting sidetracked. system destroying weapons likely wouldn't be used in the OP's initial encounter, unless you want both fleets to die as they arrive.
**edit**well if you used the Sun Crusher's torpedoes to make the system's star go nova. how do blackstone fortresses destroy systems?
Izural wrote: Stormtroopers are not clones; the cloning facility on Kamino, along with the gene banks, were destroyed by the rebels not long after Palpatine took power. Also, the Emperor disbanded the clone troopers in favour of conscripting the Imperial populace.
Bioengineering aside, I think both Mandolorians and Astartes are evenly matched (The mandolorians don't bioengineer, but love them some cyber augments). The tipping point would be that Mandolorians also have access to one of the rarest things in the Star Wars universe; Mandolorian Iron, which is to Terminator armour as Terminator armour is to Ork T-shirts.
But hey, I see Mandolorians and Astartes getting along very well; Mandolorian Astartes, the most OP force ever made!
Didn't know that about the clones, I'll keep it in mind. I deliberately avoided making a Beskar'Gam/ceramite comparison, because that would literally be comparing plot armor. Both are fictional materials that are the best protection available in their respective settings. However, it should be noted that Mandolorian armor doesn't have the strength-boosting abilities of power armor, nor is it linked directly to the nervous system. Additionally, as OP specified the Galactic Empire, beskar is in short supply this era. The Imperials strip-mined Mandalor, discovered they didn't know how to smith it, and didn't give it back. No new veins would be discovered until the Yuzhang Vong bombardment 30 years later.
Izural wrote: Round 3: Do you know what the Emperor's Guard are? I'm guessing not, because a single one can easily handle a single terminator. These are the Elite of the Elite, trained in all arts of warfare including Saber techniques, blasters, etc. They can stand up against Sith Lords and Jedi Masters fyi.
Does anyone have a value for rounds per minute fired from a storm bolter? Let's see and Emperor's Guard dodge/parry THAT
Izural wrote: Round 3: Do you know what the Emperor's Guard are? I'm guessing not, because a single one can easily handle a single terminator. These are the Elite of the Elite, trained in all arts of warfare including Saber techniques, blasters, etc. They can stand up against Sith Lords and Jedi Masters fyi.
Does anyone have a value for rounds per minute fired from a storm bolter? Let's see and Emperor's Guard dodge/parry THAT
Apparently Kantor's Storm Bolter can pump out 300 rounds per minute, but that qualifies as an astounding weapon. So, let's say 200 rounds per minute?
Iron_Captain wrote: Clone/Storm Troopers can't even hit a target at 10 meters... The only reason they won the Clone Wars is because the battle droids were even worse at fighting No wonder the Empire was defeated by a bunch of rebels led by a farmer with a lightsaber.
Hey now, in the American Revolution the British Empire was beaten by a bunch of rebels led by a farmer with false teeth.
Don't underestimate a properly-equipped farmer.
That really really was not how it worked - given how much men, ships, money and equipment the French poured into that war. Most revolutions simply don't work without outside assistance.
Round 1: 1 Space Marine vs 1 Storm Trooper (Star Wars)
Quick and easy - dead Storm Trooper, the Astartes are quicker, stronger, more accurate and more resilient with a more powerful weapon at range and much more deadly in h-t-h.
Round 2: 10 Space Marines vs 100 Storm Troopers
More interesting fight but I would think this should go to the Astartes
Round 3: 1 Space Marine Terminator vs 10 Emperor's Guard
Don't know enough about the Guards melee weapons to call this one.
Round 4: 1 Space Marine Chapter including vehicles vs Stormtrooper Regiment (2500 Stormtroopers plus vehicles)
Much like the first one - a Full Space marine Chapter has everything from its own warships to superheavies. Short and brutal fight.
Round 5: All resources from the Imperium (1 million Space Marines, billions of Guardsmen, and so on) vs all soldiers and military units portrayed in the Star Wars movies (Stormtroopers, Clones, Rebels, and so on)
Location: The Hoth system.
too much stuff in too small a space - they amount of mass likely turns it into a black hole A Crusade versus an Imperial Battlegroup would be a interesting battle/novel.
carldooley wrote: we are getting sidetracked. system destroying weapons likely wouldn't be used in the OP's initial encounter, unless you want both fleets to die as they arrive.
**edit**well if you used the Sun Crusher's torpedoes to make the system's star go nova. how do blackstone fortresses destroy systems?
Anyway I am just using these as examples to point out what the greatest achievements of each civilization is. Through those alone we can have a good idea of what civilization has the most advanced run of the mill "standardized" technology.
Anyway:
Round 1: 1 Space Marine vs 1 Storm Trooper (Star Wars)
The Stormtrooper doesn't stand a chance, really. He will only dent the Astartes' power armour... if he's lucky to get a shot out.
Round 2: 10 Space Marines vs 100 Storm Troopers
Same. If the Troopers concentrate fire, a couple of marines may be killed. This is assuming there are no Blaster Cannons/Heavy Bolters around, and no Terminators.
Round 3: 1 Space Marine Terminator vs 10 Emperor's Guard
Head to head the Terminator would win quite easily, courtesy of your trusty Stormbolter.
Round 4: 1 Space Marine Chapter including vehicles vs Stormtrooper Regiment (2500 Stormtroopers plus vehicles)
As with everything above, the Astartes will win through vastly superior firepower and technology.
Round 5: All resources from the Imperium (1 million Space Marines, billions of Guardsmen, and so on) vs all soldiers and military units portrayed in the Star Wars movies (Stormtroopers, Clones, Rebels, and so on)
The resources of Imperial Navy alone could dominate the Galactic Empire, with or without the Death Star. Adding the Astartes Navy would make it overkill.
Round 3: 1 Space Marine Terminator vs 10 Emperor's Guard
Everything else is woefully in the Space Marines' favour, but this one is sharply in the other direction.
The only depiction I've seen of the Emperor's Guard doing anything was in Dark Empire. And in that they are the Sue-est Mary Sues that ever Sued. Soloing a storm trooper contingent, blocking blasters with his staff, shooting a tie that's on a collision course right for him through the cockpit in such a way that it stops and careens over a hill on top of another contingent of storm troopers.
the ones in the red armor in the movie? everything that I've ever read suggested that they were force sensitives rescued by palpatine from the purges, with loyalty similar to Vader's. but as Lithlandis mentioned, the fluff for them is non-canon now.
strip the canon from SW, why not strip the cannon from SM?
Round 3: 1 Space Marine Terminator vs 10 Emperor's Guard
Everything else is woefully in the Space Marines' favour, but this one is sharply in the other direction.
The only depiction I've seen of the Emperor's Guard doing anything was in Dark Empire. And in that they are the Sue-est Mary Sues that ever Sued. Soloing a storm trooper contingent, blocking blasters with his staff, shooting a tie that's on a collision course right for him through the cockpit in such a way that it stops and careens over a hill on top of another contingent of storm troopers.
The problem is... how effectively can they deflect 3 bolter rounds per second with their staves?
Just a question, wouldn't just the Imperial Navy plus a few Chapter ships dominate the entire Empire? Since, well, the Empire has one thing capable of destroying planets/ships. The Imperium? Hundreds.
Round 3: 1 Space Marine Terminator vs 10 Emperor's Guard
Everything else is woefully in the Space Marines' favour, but this one is sharply in the other direction.
The only depiction I've seen of the Emperor's Guard doing anything was in Dark Empire. And in that they are the Sue-est Mary Sues that ever Sued. Soloing a storm trooper contingent, blocking blasters with his staff, shooting a tie that's on a collision course right for him through the cockpit in such a way that it stops and careens over a hill on top of another contingent of storm troopers.
The problem is... how effectively can they deflect 3 bolter rounds per second with their staves?
They're force sensitive, they'll just wave the bullets away. It doesn't work vs blasters because they're not solid projectile.
And they could probably force-choke the Terminator.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Completely different universes and settings, along with degrees of power and technology levels. 40k setting is just way too advanced compared to SW's
E.g - SW's Death Star was the defining terror weapon and was regarded as the epitome of technology... and there was one in the Galaxy. Any Astartes Battle Barge can do exactly the same thing, but may take just a tad longer. On the other hand a Blackstone Fortress can wipe out entire systems.
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that a Battle Barge is capable of destroying the rock a planet is made from.
Battle Barges can perform Exterminatus, but they cannot destroy the planets themselves - merely make them unlivable.
I-class Star Destroyers have the same ability, called a Base Delta Zero Operation, by which through turbolaser bombardment, they strip a planet of its atmosphere and destroy all ground installations.
Later Super Star Destroyers had Super-lasers, like the one on the Death Star, which while only having something like 20% of the Death Star Superlaser's damage output were still more than capable of destroying a battlecruiser in one shot - the Death Star 2 shot that destroyed the Mon Cal cruiser in Return of the Jedi was only firing at 5% power.
I don't believe the Imperium could beat anyone due to its structure. And their tech is rather gakky as well, or IG tanks would hit more than half the time.
As presented in the fluff, space marine chapters would be trivially eliminated by nuclear strikes from orbit or tactical nuclear weapons. Futuristic combat is very boring indeed.
Martel732 wrote: I don't believe the Imperium could beat anyone due to its structure. And their tech is rather gakky as well, or IG tanks would hit more than half the time.
As presented in the fluff, space marine chapters would be trivially eliminated by nuclear strikes from orbit or tactical nuclear weapons. Futuristic combat is very boring indeed.
The rules, especially something with the low granularity of a d6 system, do not perfectly correspond to the fluff.
In what context would this nuclear strike take place? When would Space Marines just be standing around defenseless in open ground, open to bombardment?
Right after landing in their pods, as long as you have something that's worth sacrificing, you can just aim your nukes at it, wait till the SM's jump on it and then slag the entire site.
And while the d6 has flaws, its a good indication of what's better than what.
And don't forget to go slag their home planets, too. The concept of space marines is utterly absurd to begin with. It only works in a starship troopers style implementation. And guess what they used? Nukes.
Martel732 wrote: I don't believe the Imperium could beat anyone due to its structure. And their tech is rather gakky as well, or IG tanks would hit more than half the time.
As presented in the fluff, space marine chapters would be trivially eliminated by nuclear strikes from orbit or tactical nuclear weapons. Futuristic combat is very boring indeed.
The rules, especially something with the low granularity of a d6 system, do not perfectly correspond to the fluff.
In what context would this nuclear strike take place? When would Space Marines just be standing around defenseless in open ground, open to bombardment?
Doesn't really matter. Both the Imperium and Marines are imbeciles regardless of the claims in the fluff. Largely because the authors of the IP are also imbecilic and horrible futurists.
Bobthehero wrote: Right after landing in their pods, as long as you have something that's worth sacrificing, you can just aim your nukes at it, wait till the SM's jump on it and then slag the entire site.
And while the d6 has flaws, its a good indication of what's better than what.
You only have boots on the ground when there's something worth fighting for. If the enemy could afford to just destroy everything in the general area, more often than not the same would be true of the Imperials, and they would have done the same instead of sending in ground troops.
I never disputed that the d6 system is fine for telling relative power, but the actual probabilities don't stand on their own. Power armor doesn't actually fail one every three hits, for instance.
Bobthehero wrote: Right after landing in their pods, as long as you have something that's worth sacrificing, you can just aim your nukes at it, wait till the SM's jump on it and then slag the entire site.
And while the d6 has flaws, its a good indication of what's better than what.
You only have boots on the ground when there's something worth fighting for. If the enemy could afford to just destroy everything in the general area, more often than not the same would be true of the Imperials, and they would have done the same instead of sending in ground troops.
I never disputed that the d6 system is fine for telling relative power, but the actual probabilities don't stand on their own. Power armor doesn't actually fail one every three hits, for instance.
But it does. Because the mathematical model says it does. If you wanted power armor to be better, it would be better.
Space marine are irreplaceable if they are exterminated. Some patches of dirt are very replaceable.
Bobthehero wrote: Right after landing in their pods, as long as you have something that's worth sacrificing, you can just aim your nukes at it, wait till the SM's jump on it and then slag the entire site.
And while the d6 has flaws, its a good indication of what's better than what.
You only have boots on the ground when there's something worth fighting for. If the enemy could afford to just destroy everything in the general area, more often than not the same would be true of the Imperials, and they would have done the same instead of sending in ground troops.
I never disputed that the d6 system is fine for telling relative power, but the actual probabilities don't stand on their own. Power armor doesn't actually fail one every three hits, for instance.
But it does. Because the mathematical model says it does. If you wanted power armor to be better, it would be better.
So what's your reaction when the rules change from one edition to the next? Or when official fluff, released in the same publication as these rules, contradicts it? When the hull points were introduced, did every vehicle in-universe suddenly get less durable?
When the discussion doesn't concern the in-game values, insistently bringing them up is asinine and serves the discussion in no way.
Bobthehero wrote: Right after landing in their pods, as long as you have something that's worth sacrificing, you can just aim your nukes at it, wait till the SM's jump on it and then slag the entire site.
And while the d6 has flaws, its a good indication of what's better than what.
You only have boots on the ground when there's something worth fighting for. If the enemy could afford to just destroy everything in the general area, more often than not the same would be true of the Imperials, and they would have done the same instead of sending in ground troops.
I never disputed that the d6 system is fine for telling relative power, but the actual probabilities don't stand on their own. Power armor doesn't actually fail one every three hits, for instance.
But it does. Because the mathematical model says it does. If you wanted power armor to be better, it would be better.
So what's your reaction when the rules change from one edition to the next? Or when official fluff, released in the same publication as these rules, contradicts it? When the hull points were introduced, did every vehicle in-universe suddenly get less durable?
When the discussion doesn't concern the in-game values, insistently bringing them up is asinine and serves the discussion in no way.
The in-game model diverges so far from the fluff text, that one must be rejected. Given that my personal reality is being shot off the table by Eldar, I don't see how any of the BA fluff is remotely feasible given how gakky they are. Edition changes are literally a new reality. So yes, tanks did just become more fragile. Because the model says so. The fluff doesn't help me vs Eldar, so it is basically dead to me.
Bobthehero wrote: Right after landing in their pods, as long as you have something that's worth sacrificing, you can just aim your nukes at it, wait till the SM's jump on it and then slag the entire site.
And while the d6 has flaws, its a good indication of what's better than what.
You only have boots on the ground when there's something worth fighting for. If the enemy could afford to just destroy everything in the general area, more often than not the same would be true of the Imperials, and they would have done the same instead of sending in ground troops.
I never disputed that the d6 system is fine for telling relative power, but the actual probabilities don't stand on their own. Power armor doesn't actually fail one every three hits, for instance.
But it does. Because the mathematical model says it does. If you wanted power armor to be better, it would be better.
So what's your reaction when the rules change from one edition to the next? Or when official fluff, released in the same publication as these rules, contradicts it? When the hull points were introduced, did every vehicle in-universe suddenly get less durable?
When the discussion doesn't concern the in-game values, insistently bringing them up is asinine and serves the discussion in no way.
The in-game model diverges so far from the fluff text, that one must be rejected. Given that my personal reality is being shot off the table by Eldar, I don't see how any of the BA fluff is remotely feasible given how gakky they are. Edition changes are literally a new reality. So yes, tanks did just become more fragile. Because the model says so. The fluff doesn't help me vs Eldar, so it is basically dead to me.
The discussion in question concerns fluff. If crunch were being discussed, it would be as simple a matter as tossing some X-wing models on one side of a table and some 40k models on the other.
The answer is almost always going to involve weapons of mass destruction, not heroic duels. That's another problem with fluff arguments. That's on top of my inability to take anything GW writes about their own setting seriously in any way.
Ashiraya wrote: I really feel you may have found the wrong game, Martel. In the grim darkness of the far future, there are only psykers and chainswords!
Yeah, I found it in 1994, though. It seemed really cool, then!
Ashiraya wrote: ...But back in 1994, wasn't there just as many psykers and chainswords as today?
Yes, but I hadn't read nearly as many good sci-fi books. I was gonna quit, too, but then 3rd ed came out. That's what losing every game in 2nd ed will do for you.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Completely different universes and settings, along with degrees of power and technology levels. 40k setting is just way too advanced compared to SW's
Huh? If anything it's the other way around. The SW galaxy has long since been topped out on what they can actually use technology to do, as in hyperspace travel, but new applications can be devastating. The 40K Milky Way is locked in a genocidal apocalyptic war where no one can create anything new anymore and even the really advanced guys are just a sidenote in a SW history book.
Both genres have massive tech gaps that are inexplicable in the face of FTL. Realizing that Lucas made Star War fight choreography off of WWII fighter battles explains a lot, though.
DarknessEternal wrote: The only fictional setting's military that could match up to the Imperium happens to be the other one with a God-Emperor.
That's probably not even close to true given how primitive 40k tactics are. Any genre with truly futuristics weapons probably the inanity that is grimdark.
Emperor Vitiate, aboard his invisible space-station, devours them all through the Force, as he did to the entire populace of the Imperial Crown-world of Ziost.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Completely different universes and settings, along with degrees of power and technology levels. 40k setting is just way too advanced compared to SW's
E.g - SW's Death Star was the defining terror weapon and was regarded as the epitome of technology... and there was one in the Galaxy. Any Astartes Battle Barge can do exactly the same thing, but may take just a tad longer. On the other hand a Blackstone Fortress can wipe out entire systems.
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that a Battle Barge is capable of destroying the rock a planet is made from.
Battle Barges can perform Exterminatus, but they cannot destroy the planets themselves - merely make them unlivable.
I-class Star Destroyers have the same ability, called a Base Delta Zero Operation, by which through turbolaser bombardment, they strip a planet of its atmosphere and destroy all ground installations.
Later Super Star Destroyers had Super-lasers, like the one on the Death Star, which while only having something like 20% of the Death Star Superlaser's damage output were still more than capable of destroying a battlecruiser in one shot - the Death Star 2 shot that destroyed the Mon Cal cruiser in Return of the Jedi was only firing at 5% power.
That I did not know and is quite interesting. But is it canon?
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Completely different universes and settings, along with degrees of power and technology levels. 40k setting is just way too advanced compared to SW's
Huh? If anything it's the other way around. The SW galaxy has long since been topped out on what they can actually use technology to do, as in hyperspace travel, but new applications can be devastating. The 40K Milky Way is locked in a genocidal apocalyptic war where no one can create anything new anymore and even the really advanced guys are just a sidenote in a SW history book.
40k is in a proccess of rediscovering their prime.
And as for genocide... the countless Force Sensitive wars are what? Anyway, the problem remains - what is and isn't canon for SW?
Ashiraya wrote: I don't know the setting well but I've been told that the Culture can do it as well.
The Culture has the tech, but not the heart or sheer manpower to match up to the Imperium.
It doesn't need manpower. A single Culture warship could take on the combined forces of the entire 40k galaxy simultaneously and win in less time than it took me to write this sentence. And it can turn entire planetary masses into combat drones if, for some reason, it wishes to engage in ground combat.
Ashiraya wrote: I don't know the setting well but I've been told that the Culture can do it as well.
The Culture has the tech, but not the heart or sheer manpower to match up to the Imperium.
Anyone claiming the Culture could not win a war is missing on the point of the Culture. They are the antagonist that simply cannot be beaten, under any circumstances. And to say that they do not have the heart to engage the Imperium is just plain wrong : they've annihilated all atoms of contested planets simply to put across their point.
Seems to me that in a SW vs Imperium war, the SW forces simply have to remain spaceborne and will never have a problem. Imperium ships takes 30 minutes to load a single broadside and a few hours to do a full 180.
It also doesn't take a genius to go around the lack of starcharts. Capturing a single enemy vessel should already help a lot toward this.
Ashiraya wrote: I don't know the setting well but I've been told that the Culture can do it as well.
The Culture has the tech, but not the heart or sheer manpower to match up to the Imperium.
It doesn't need manpower. A single Culture warship could take on the combined forces of the entire 40k galaxy simultaneously and win in less time than it took me to write this sentence. And it can turn entire planetary masses into combat drones if, for some reason, it wishes to engage in ground combat.
Various Minds might have to have a bit of heart to heart about the appropriate way to deal with the Imperium and the social / political aftermath but militarily there would be no contest............
Orks would be an interesting one for them to consider - they are a bit like the Afront..............
The Necrons having time travel might cause issues with the Culture - who are not infallible - but not far off.
Anyone claiming the Culture could not win a war is missing on the point of the Culture. They are the antagonist that simply cannot be beaten, under any circumstances.
Not quite true - they nearly lost their last big war and there are more advanced civilisations than them in their own galaxy - many of which have sublimed but not all.
Blaster weapons seem somewhat survivable by normal humans, comparable to the small arms of today or the lasguns of 40k, so they shouldn't do all that much against PA.
Blaster weapons seem somewhat survivable by normal humans, comparable to the small arms of today or the lasguns of 40k, so they shouldn't do all that much against PA.
Its weird because you see holes being blasted in wall and metal and whatnot, but then you have the scene where Leia gets shot in the arm and she's fine-ish.
Matthew wrote: How long could a Space Marine company survive an infinite stream of Stormtroopers then?
Between the poor aim of Stormtroopers, the very low velocity of blaster bolts, Astartes' superhuman reflexes, the Astartes' Power Armor, and blaster bolts only being strong enough to mildly burn the arm of an Alderaanian princess, I'd say they would hold out until the pile of stormtrooper corpses becomes high enough to block the passage of anything else. At which point the Astartes would go into sus-an to fend off starvation until such time as reinforcements could arrive.
Think about it, we've seen people get shot with the Blasters and survive (to the arm/leg, Leia even survives a hit from an AT-ST!). Meanwhile, if you were hit in the arm with a Bolter, being alive wouldn't really be a thing.
And yet stormtroopers as well as rebels die to their own blasters shots all the time. But of course, lets ignore that, because god forbids the Muhreens gets displayed in a bad light, right?
Bobthehero wrote: And yet stormtroopers as well as rebels die to their own blasters shots all the time. But of course, lets ignore that, because god forbids the Muhreens gets displayed in a bad light, right?
They've have the potential to be lethal, they just don't have anything like the destructive power of the bolter. Even the lasgun tends to cause minor flesh explosions as the water evaporates and expands. Blasters, in contrast, seem to be no more destructive than modern day small arms fire. Also, ceramic compounds (like ceramite) are very good at dissipating heat.
It's not so much Marine famboying as the simple disparity of the two forces. One side has genetic enhancements that are the brainchild of a near godlike being, armed and armored with the best available, and the product of over a decade of training. The other is mass-produced, with less powerful weapons and deals in intimidation much more often than actual warfare.
You ignore the part about blasters blasting rather large holes (far bigger than a 5.56mm round could do, trust me).
Its very easily on par with lasgun, even more so.
As for Ceramite and heat, the best weapons to beat PA with are heat based, at least on the IOM side, plasma guns, hellguns, hotshot volley rifles. All heat based weapon, all punch through PA/Ceramite.
Ashiraya wrote: I don't know the setting well but I've been told that the Culture can do it as well.
The Culture has the tech, but not the heart or sheer manpower to match up to the Imperium.
It doesn't need manpower. A single Culture warship could take on the combined forces of the entire 40k galaxy simultaneously and win in less time than it took me to write this sentence. And it can turn entire planetary masses into combat drones if, for some reason, it wishes to engage in ground combat.
I've only read one Culture book, but this does seem to be true. In the Culture, they engage in battle at such a ridiculous long range that it wouldn't even be entertaining to watch them fight one of the other Universes. But really, the limitations are what make fiction interesting. The Q Continuum from Star Trek would annihilate any other fictional world for example, but their power is so limitless they are only interesting as side characters that create challenges.
Ashiraya wrote: I don't know the setting well but I've been told that the Culture can do it as well.
The Culture has the tech, but not the heart or sheer manpower to match up to the Imperium.
It doesn't need manpower. A single Culture warship could take on the combined forces of the entire 40k galaxy simultaneously and win in less time than it took me to write this sentence. And it can turn entire planetary masses into combat drones if, for some reason, it wishes to engage in ground combat.
I've only read one Culture book, but this does seem to be true. In the Culture, they engage in battle at such a ridiculous long range that it wouldn't even be entertaining to watch them fight one of the other Universes. But really, the limitations are what make fiction interesting. The Q Continuum from Star Trek would annihilate any other fictional world for example, but their power is so limitless they are only interesting as side characters that create challenges.
Well, that's the issue with comparing fiction, some of them are pretty convoluted in areas - like the Culture (which I'm not familiar with) or the Q.. At least Warhammer is pretty up front about it and consistent.
Ashiraya wrote: I don't know the setting well but I've been told that the Culture can do it as well.
The Culture has the tech, but not the heart or sheer manpower to match up to the Imperium.
It doesn't need manpower. A single Culture warship could take on the combined forces of the entire 40k galaxy simultaneously and win in less time than it took me to write this sentence. And it can turn entire planetary masses into combat drones if, for some reason, it wishes to engage in ground combat.
I've only read one Culture book, but this does seem to be true. In the Culture, they engage in battle at such a ridiculous long range that it wouldn't even be entertaining to watch them fight one of the other Universes. But really, the limitations are what make fiction interesting. The Q Continuum from Star Trek would annihilate any other fictional world for example, but their power is so limitless they are only interesting as side characters that create challenges.
Well, that's the issue with comparing fiction, some of them are pretty convoluted in areas - like the Culture (which I'm not familiar with) or the Q.. At least Warhammer is pretty up front about it and consistent.
Consistent? Where a single las gun can have no problem going through a sheet of metal, yet cannot puncture a piece of paper (I am exaggerating a bit). Where land raiders turn into razorbacks and back? Eldar worship Slaanesh, steal tanks from Imperial forces, and cannot grasp the human language. The only consistency in 40K is that there is no consistency.
Bobthehero wrote: You ignore the part about blasters blasting rather large holes (far bigger than a 5.56mm round could do, trust me).
Its very easily on par with lasgun, even more so.
As for Ceramite and heat, the best weapons to beat PA with are heat based, at least on the IOM side, plasma guns, hellguns, hotshot volley rifles. All heat based weapon, all punch through PA/Ceramite.
The plasma bolts of a SW blaster, however, are not on par with the plasma weapons of 40k. They aren't even on par with the plasma rifles of the Tau. They're also wildly inaccurate.
I dunno, Ceramite is pretty good against heat. If FW is to be believed, having a vehicle be built with ceramite makes it incredibly resistant to melta weapons.
You'll never need to consider handheld weapons, honest. The SW guys have insanely much faster FTL even without prepared maps, and their ships aren't exactly pushovers. They can concentrate forces on a scale the IoM can never dream of, and even a single ISD (or comparable capital ship) is capable of glassing a planet in a matter of hours. A Space Marine Chapter Fleet is gone before the marines know they're being shot at.
Spetulhu wrote: You'll never need to consider handheld weapons, honest. The SW guys have insanely much faster FTL even without prepared maps, and their ships aren't exactly pushovers. They can concentrate forces on a scale the IoM can never dream of, and even a single ISD (or comparable capital ship) is capable of glassing a planet in a matter of hours. A Space Marine Chapter Fleet is gone before the marines know they're being shot at.
In a void conflict, the Empire undoubtedly holds the advantage by way of mobility, I wouldn't be so quick to always give the upper hand to ISDs if they're unlucky enough to jump into a more even conflict. I'm not an expert by any means, but it seems like SW vessels are much more reliant on energy fields than physical armor, while the Imperium makes judicious use of both. This ultimately lot means that ISDs are better at offense due to the wedged hull allowing all guns to be brought to bear, while IoM vessels are better at taking hits. However, it doesn't look like the Galactic Empire makes any real use of boarding torpedoes, teleportora, or similar tech.
I need a star wars defender to answer these for me real quick:
Size of SW ships in rough estimate KM, since we know these numbers for 40k, we can compare ship size, additionally, armament as well for the SW ships.
On the ground, in all honesty, the battle always goes to the Imperium, more numbers, better elites, seemingly much MUCH longer ranged weapons, etc. From what I can see, general conscientious is IoM wins land battles, SW wins space battles, but I'm not sure on that one. Yes, you have speed, but that only accounts for so much in these "close system" battles that the OP hinted at. Before we even consider who wins in space, actual numbers would be nice from SW since we have them for IoM.
Brennonjw wrote: I need a star wars defender to answer these for me real quick:
Size of SW ships in rough estimate KM, since we know these numbers for 40k, we can compare ship size, additionally, armament as well for the SW ships.
On the ground, in all honesty, the battle always goes to the Imperium, more numbers, better elites, seemingly much MUCH longer ranged weapons, etc. From what I can see, general conscientious is IoM wins land battles, SW wins space battles, but I'm not sure on that one. Yes, you have speed, but that only accounts for so much in these "close system" battles that the OP hinted at. Before we even consider who wins in space, actual numbers would be nice from SW since we have them for IoM.
With regards to armament, I think the best we can do is assume ships of equal size have about the same total armament, but not necessarily the same broadside weight etc.. The reason for this is that the "canonical" energy values are insanely high, even by 40k standards. The number of extra zeros at the end of those numbers means SW weapons would turn the entire "battlefield" incandescent from excess radiation alone.
Brennonjw wrote: I need a star wars defender to answer these for me real quick:
Size of SW ships in rough estimate KM, since we know these numbers for 40k, we can compare ship size, additionally, armament as well for the SW ships.
On the ground, in all honesty, the battle always goes to the Imperium, more numbers, better elites, seemingly much MUCH longer ranged weapons, etc. From what I can see, general conscientious is IoM wins land battles, SW wins space battles, but I'm not sure on that one. Yes, you have speed, but that only accounts for so much in these "close system" battles that the OP hinted at. Before we even consider who wins in space, actual numbers would be nice from SW since we have them for IoM.
SIze: Obviously varies on the class, with the smallest (TIE Fighters being roughly 9 m long) and the largest (discounting the Death Stars) being up to 19,000 m.
Armaments, again depends on the ship. However, from the Tech Guide (specifically Star Wars Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections), The Acclamator Troop Transport:
Light guns: 300 million GW (6 megatons per shot, 24 guns, assume 1 shot every 2 seconds for time-averaged power output rather than peak output)
Heavy guns: 2.4 million megatons (200 gigatons per shot from each turret, 12 turrets)
Sublight acceleration: 3500G
Operational range: 250,000 light-years (before refueling)
Shield heat dissipation: 70 trillion GW peak
Reactor power: 200 trillion GW max
Max hyperspace speed: not stated (however, the ability to travel "halfway across the galaxy" in a matter of hours as demonstrated in ANH, TPM, and AOTC requires speeds in the range of 10 million to 100 million times c).
Of course an Acclamator is not a particularly powerful warship by Imperial standards (an Imperial Star Destroyer is roughly 10 times larger (by volume) than an Acclamator and presumably 10 times more powerful, even if we disregard the fact that an Acclamator is just a transport).
Brennonjw wrote: I need a star wars defender to answer these for me real quick:
Size of SW ships in rough estimate KM, since we know these numbers for 40k, we can compare ship size, additionally, armament as well for the SW ships.
On the ground, in all honesty, the battle always goes to the Imperium, more numbers, better elites, seemingly much MUCH longer ranged weapons, etc. From what I can see, general conscientious is IoM wins land battles, SW wins space battles, but I'm not sure on that one. Yes, you have speed, but that only accounts for so much in these "close system" battles that the OP hinted at. Before we even consider who wins in space, actual numbers would be nice from SW since we have them for IoM.
SIze: Obviously varies on the class, with the smallest (TIE Fighters being roughly 9 m long) and the largest (discounting the Death Stars) being up to 19,000 m.
Armaments, again depends on the ship. However, from the Tech Guide (specifically Star Wars Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections), The Acclamator Troop Transport:
Light guns: 300 million GW (6 megatons per shot, 24 guns, assume 1 shot every 2 seconds for time-averaged power output rather than peak output)
Heavy guns: 2.4 million megatons (200 gigatons per shot from each turret, 12 turrets)
Sublight acceleration: 3500G
Operational range: 250,000 light-years (before refueling)
Shield heat dissipation: 70 trillion GW peak
Reactor power: 200 trillion GW max
Max hyperspace speed: not stated (however, the ability to travel "halfway across the galaxy" in a matter of hours as demonstrated in ANH, TPM, and AOTC requires speeds in the range of 10 million to 100 million times c).
Of course an Acclamator is not a particularly powerful warship by Imperial standards (an Imperial Star Destroyer is roughly 10 times larger (by volume) than an Acclamator and presumably 10 times more powerful, even if we disregard the fact that an Acclamator is just a transport).
Are you sure on the length and sizes? from what I've dug up, the Eclipse is one of the largest at just under 18 km, or am i missing something?
Brennonjw wrote: Are you sure on the length and sizes? from what I've dug up, the Eclipse is one of the largest at just under 18 km, or am i missing something?
The Vengeance class and Executor class were both 19 km.
asorel wrote: Size of SW ships in rough estimate KM, since we know these numbers for 40k, we can compare ship size, additionally, armament as well for the SW ships.
Ship size doesn't tell you very much. For example, a Culture warship is much smaller than a 40k battleship, but could destroy the entire combined fleets of 40k in less time than it took to write this sentence.
asorel wrote: With regards to armament, I think the best we can do is assume ships of equal size have about the same total armament, but not necessarily the same broadside weight etc.. The reason for this is that the "canonical" energy values are insanely high, even by 40k standards. The number of extra zeros at the end of those numbers means SW weapons would turn the entire "battlefield" incandescent from excess radiation alone.
Why should we assume that they are equal? The fact that Star Wars firepower numbers are insane even by 40k standards just means that Star Wars weapons outgun 40k weapons by a huge margin. You don't get to nerf one side just because they're too powerful to give you the outcome you want.
Why should we assume that they are equal? The fact that Star Wars firepower numbers are insane even by 40k standards just means that Star Wars weapons outgun 40k weapons by a huge margin. You don't get to nerf one side just because they're too powerful to give you the outcome you want.
It has nothing to do with the "outcome I want," I couldn't care less who wins this imaginary cross-franchise battle. I am merely pointing out that the weapon's stated energy output levels are ludicrous. In fact, one may create a canonical argument that those values may be disregarded using the Star Wars hierarchy of canon. The G-canon space battle scenes in the films clearly contradict the listed energy values in the C-canon blueprint book, by way of those scenes being something other than monotonic white light. As the G-canon overrides the C-canon, one may safely assume that these values are noncanonical.
asorel wrote: I am merely pointing out that the weapon's stated energy output levels are ludicrous.
So what? The fact that they're absurdly high doesn't mean that they aren't true. After all, Culture firepower numbers are even more obscenely high and yet there's no reasonable argument that they're "really" just 40k-level.
The G-canon space battle scenes in the films clearly contradict the listed energy values in the C-canon blueprint book, by way of those scenes being something other than monotonic white light.
On the other hand the example of a star destroyer's light point defense guns vaporizing asteroids with single shots pretty strongly suggests that the firepower numbers are accurate. The most reasonable way to resolve this is to assume that in those battle scenes the overwhelming flash is toned down by the camera so that the audience can see what is happening.
Well, C-canon is now L-Canon and therefore only useful when discussing the L-verse. Which only leaves us with G-canon telling us that a Star Destroyer's point defence gun can obliterate an asteroid a tenth the length of the whole ship with a single shot.
hold on. I was under the impression that an Impstar Deuce (the Imperial Star Destroyer Mark II) from Return of the Jedi ran about a kilometer in length, and the SSD (Super Star Destroyer) Executor was 10 kilometers long.
The planet destroying power of the Star Destroyer class of starships was sustained fire from their turbolaser batteries that would destroy the biospheres of the targeted planets, but it was never employed in the movies and is non-canon.
I am reminded of the initial space battles between the Tau Empire and the IoM. Small and maneuverable starships versus the Imperium's battlewagons. anyone else getting deja vu?
"Long ago in a galaxy far away" Star wars takes place in our past, so by they time they encounter each other the Star Wars Universe might have achieved singularity.
Although if there was some kind of time warp where they intersect, i just think dudes that are tougher than Captain America in Iron Man suits would have the edge.
carldooley wrote: hold on. I was under the impression that an Impstar Deuce (the Imperial Star Destroyer Mark II) from Return of the Jedi ran about a kilometer in length, and the SSD (Super Star Destroyer) Executor was 10 kilometers long.
1.6km for a star destroyer, ~18km for the Executor. There was an old ~10km number for the Executor, but it was invented in some random RPG supplement and directly contradicted on-screen evidence from the movies.
The planet destroying power of the Star Destroyer class of starships was sustained fire from their turbolaser batteries that would destroy the biospheres of the targeted planets, but it was never employed in the movies and is non-canon.
Even if you have a "movies only" position on canon similar firepower numbers are supported by the fact that a star destroyer's light point defense guns were seen vaporizing asteroids with single shots. When you do the math on how much energy would be required for that and scale it up proportionally based on the size of the main guns you get up in to the "destroy all life on a planet" range pretty easily.
Why should we assume that they are equal? The fact that Star Wars firepower numbers are insane even by 40k standards just means that Star Wars weapons outgun 40k weapons by a huge margin. You don't get to nerf one side just because they're too powerful to give you the outcome you want.
Instead of using stated firepower, because neither universe's writers know their head from their butts in terms of realistic damage outputs, we should use what has been demonstrated within the canon of each universe.
If the Star Wars firepower calculations are to be believed, the Imperial Fleet should have had no issues with the Rebel base's shield generator on Hoth. They could have just blown the planet itself to bits around the base and not bothered with ground troops. Who needs Death Stars when a couple Star Destroyers could do the same thing? Yet in contrast we constantly see 40k ships obliterating ground targets, and any ship that has Torpedo tubes can potentially be used to destroy a planet if you have the Life Eater Virus and/or some Clyclonic Torpedoes around.
Blasters should be disintegrating anybody who gets hit by them, or at least throwing them like ragdolls. Yet in the films and fiction we see them being demonstrably worse than even antiquated firearms. heck, even the in-universe black powder weapons actually outperform blasters in terms of damage, especially since it seems nobody makes body armor that can resist kinetic impact.
Grey Templar wrote: If the Star Wars firepower calculations are to be believed, the Imperial Fleet should have had no issues with the Rebel base's shield generator on Hoth. They could have just blown the planet itself to bits around the base and not bothered with ground troops.
And killed Luke in the process. Remember how Vader's goal was to capture Luke, not simply kill all of the rebels?
Also, let's not forget that the same applies to 40k. If 40k firepower numbers are to be believed then why don't they use orbital bombardments to wipe out whole armies?
Who needs Death Stars when a couple Star Destroyers could do the same thing?
The death star can destroy a planet through planetary shielding that could hold off a star destroyer or two. And the death star turns a planet into a cloud of dust, it doesn't "merely" kill everything on the surface. That's an important difference for a terror weapon.
Blasters should be disintegrating anybody who gets hit by them, or at least throwing them like ragdolls.
They do throw their targets around pretty frequently, when they aren't hitting main characters. And, again, you can say the same about 40k weapons: if they're so much better than blasters then why does the canon (or at least the closest thing to canon in 40k) visual example of bolter combat look pretty much exactly like blaster combat but with some extra blood splatter effects?
Always wondered what's up with these threads. 40k Fluff is all about mary sue one upmanship, it's the most extreme and over the top saturday morning cartoon out there. Isn't that why we like it? Also yes Imperium every instance.
Grey Templar wrote: If the Star Wars firepower calculations are to be believed, the Imperial Fleet should have had no issues with the Rebel base's shield generator on Hoth. They could have just blown the planet itself to bits around the base and not bothered with ground troops.
And killed Luke in the process. Remember how Vader's goal was to capture Luke, not simply kill all of the rebels?
True, but at the time that is Vader's personal goal. Not the goal of the fleet.
At the very least there would have been dialogue to the following effect when General Veers reported in to Vader,
"Comm Scan has detected an energy shield protecting an area of the 5th planet of the Hoth system, the field is strong enough to deflect any bombardment. The Fleet is preparing to maneuver to begin a perimeter bombardment to blast the plan..."
"NO! We will not bombard the planet. We must capture Skywalker alive! Prepare to land your forces beyond the energy shield and engage a surface attack."
que Admiral Hozzle getting chocked to death.
The death star can destroy a planet through planetary shielding that could hold off a star destroyer or two. And the death star turns a planet into a cloud of dust, it doesn't "merely" kill everything on the surface. That's an important difference for a terror weapon.
Cyclonic Torpedoes do basically the same thing. Not as fast to be sure, but if anything that is more effective as a terror weapon. And since just about every 40k ship has Torpedo tubes it could be done anywhere at any time. Not just one place in 1 ship which the Empire obviously spent way too much to build.
They do throw their targets around pretty frequently, when they aren't hitting main characters. And, again, you can say the same about 40k weapons: if they're so much better than blasters then why does the canon (or at least the closest thing to canon in 40k) visual example of bolter combat look pretty much exactly like blaster combat but with some extra blood splatter effects?
I don't mean push them back. I mean they should literally be evaporating in red mist or getting launched 30-40 meters into the air. Even if your body armor can withstand that your body is going to be pulped by the kinetic impact.
Leia should have been killed outright just from the shock of her entire arm disappearing.
Grey Templar wrote: True, but at the time that is Vader's personal goal. Not the goal of the fleet.
But it's a pretty safe assumption that the rest of the fleet was told that they need to be taking prisoners. After all, it's not very helpful to have a stormtrooper shoot Luke because nobody mentioned that rebel officers are to be taken alive. The most likely explanation is that Vader made it clear that the rebels were to be taken alive whenever possible, but presented it as "we need survivors to interrogate to find the rest of the rebel bases" instead of "my son is there".
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Grey Templar wrote: Cyclonic Torpedoes do basically the same thing. Not as fast to be sure, but if anything that is more effective as a terror weapon. And since just about every 40k ship has Torpedo tubes it could be done anywhere at any time. Not just one place in 1 ship which the Empire obviously spent way too much to build.
But a cyclonic torpedo is a technobabble gimmick weapon that destroys a planet by space magic. The death star just shoots a really powerful gun at it and kills it by sheer firepower, just like a star destroyer obliterates all life on a planet with its normal guns.
I don't mean push them back. I mean they should literally be evaporating in red mist or getting launched 30-40 meters into the air. Even if your body armor can withstand that your body is going to be pulped by the kinetic impact.
Ok, let's assume this is true. If it is then all you've established is that Star Wars blasters are around bolter-level firepower, not vastly superior.
I don't mean push them back. I mean they should literally be evaporating in red mist or getting launched 30-40 meters into the air. Even if your body armor can withstand that your body is going to be pulped by the kinetic impact.
A man-portable weapon that does this has a similar effect on the firer. Newtonian physics is not avoided by using lasers over solid projectiles.
Enough force forward to throw someone 30-40 meters generates enough force backwards to throw someone (in this case the poor bastard holding the weapon) 30-40 meters.
Psienesis wrote: A man-portable weapon that does this has a similar effect on the firer. Newtonian physics is not avoided by using lasers over solid projectiles.
Enough force forward to throw someone 30-40 meters generates enough force backwards to throw someone (in this case the poor bastard holding the weapon) 30-40 meters.
I think you're misunderstanding here. A laser does not throw its target back because of physical momentum, it throws the target back because part of the target is vaporized and the explosion flings everything away. The laser itself, no matter how much energy it delivers, will never have any recoil for the shooter because the beam is not a physical object and has no momentum.
And bolters would have a similar effect since their primary damage is done by the shell exploding, not by the kinetic energy delivered by its impact with the target.
Bolters don't blow the target into smithereens, or even small pieces. They blow big chunks out of the target, yes, but not to the point of having only a pair of smoking boots left.
What bolters cause is massive tissue damage and wound-cratering. Get shot center-mass, and the exploding shell is likely to shred both lungs and the heart (and all intervening tissue) of a human target. It is not turning their entire upper body, head and arms into Ragu.
Grey Templar wrote: Blasters should be disintegrating anybody who gets hit by them, or at least throwing them like ragdolls. Yet in the films and fiction we see them being demonstrably worse than even antiquated firearms. heck, even the in-universe black powder weapons actually outperform blasters in terms of damage, especially since it seems nobody makes body armor that can resist kinetic impact.
Depends on what a blaster "round" actually is. A bolter round is an AP rocket-boosted explosive round. A blaster "round" is an "energized particle", and it seems the damage is an effect of the little packet of energy hitting ceramic/plasteel/flesh/etc and making a mess of it. I doubt any kinetic energy; the film example of Han shooting Greedo, and Greedo just collapsing on the table, leaving "a mess". So, I don't think it's a coherent laser, but rather an energy bolt with would superheat a chunk of the target. So, a double-handful of Greedo's torso was just insta-cooked. I'd guess a shot into a smaller portion (such as a head) would be messy as there would be less surrounding mass to absorb the boiled-off liquid. Same with vehicle blaster rounds hitting vehicles; there is some "impact", but not much. Same with blaster shots hitting a wall and blowing out a chunk, leaving little burning bits. So by that measure, they are very effective. I would almost think of them as plasma pistols and plasma guns, without gets hot, rather than a lasgun.
So, IMO at the infantry level the Astartes/Empire mathhammer would be equivalent to 3 IG wearing carapace armor and armed with plasmaguns against each Astertes.
It then comes down to bolter ROF, power armor resilency and superhuman accuracy against weapons which will penetrate armor and kill the wearer.
Against IG, equal size forces I give it to the Empire (plasmaguns as wargear versus lasguns), with reinforcements eventually the Empire loses the battle of attrition.
Grey Templar wrote: Blasters should be disintegrating anybody who gets hit by them, or at least throwing them like ragdolls. Yet in the films and fiction we see them being demonstrably worse than even antiquated firearms. heck, even the in-universe black powder weapons actually outperform blasters in terms of damage, especially since it seems nobody makes body armor that can resist kinetic impact.
Depends on what a blaster "round" actually is. A bolter round is an AP rocket-boosted explosive round. A blaster "round" is an "energized particle", and it seems the damage is an effect of the little packet of energy hitting ceramic/plasteel/flesh/etc and making a mess of it. I doubt any kinetic energy; the film example of Han shooting Greedo, and Greedo just collapsing on the table, leaving "a mess". So, I don't think it's a coherent laser, but rather an energy bolt with would superheat a chunk of the target. So, a double-handful of Greedo's torso was just insta-cooked. I'd guess a shot into a smaller portion (such as a head) would be messy as there would be less surrounding mass to absorb the boiled-off liquid. Same with vehicle blaster rounds hitting vehicles; there is some "impact", but not much. Same with blaster shots hitting a wall and blowing out a chunk, leaving little burning bits. So by that measure, they are very effective. I would almost think of them as plasma pistols and plasma guns, without gets hot, rather than a lasgun.
So, IMO at the infantry level the Astartes/Empire mathhammer would be equivalent to 3 IG wearing carapace armor and armed with plasmaguns against each Astertes.
It then comes down to bolter ROF, power armor resilency and superhuman accuracy against weapons which will penetrate armor and kill the wearer.
Against IG, equal size forces I give it to the Empire (plasmaguns as wargear versus lasguns), with reinforcements eventually the Empire loses the battle of attrition.
I believe he means that the energy should be vaporizing anything it hits if the "canonical" energy readings are to be believed.
Exactly. We might not know the properties of fancy space armor, but we do know the properties of human flesh, rocks, and trees. Blaster round don't do all that much to those, not to where we can believe the canon power outputs.
Go watch saving Private Ryan. Then watch any Star Wars film. Then tell me who was better small arms: WWII armies or the stupid-ass SW fictional people. Then realize 2015 weapons are much more lethal than WWII weapons. Lucas is an idiot. And he was an idiot when we wrote Star Wars. He's a know-nothing that didn't understand how weapons really work.
Martel732 wrote: Go watch saving Private Ryan. Then watch any Star Wars film. Then tell me who was better small arms: WWII armies or the stupid-ass SW fictional people. Then realize 2015 weapons are much more lethal than WWII weapons. Lucas is an idiot. And he was an idiot when we wrote Star Wars. He's a know-nothing that didn't understand how weapons really work.
Which is a key factor in enjoying a fiction film isn't it.
Martel732 wrote: Go watch saving Private Ryan. Then watch any Star Wars film. Then tell me who was better small arms: WWII armies or the stupid-ass SW fictional people. Then realize 2015 weapons are much more lethal than WWII weapons. Lucas is an idiot. And he was an idiot when we wrote Star Wars. He's a know-nothing that didn't understand how weapons really work.
IOW, just like most of science fiction, 40k included.
Martel732 wrote: Go watch saving Private Ryan. Then watch any Star Wars film. Then tell me who was better small arms: WWII armies or the stupid-ass SW fictional people. Then realize 2015 weapons are much more lethal than WWII weapons. Lucas is an idiot. And he was an idiot when we wrote Star Wars. He's a know-nothing that didn't understand how weapons really work.
Which is a key factor in enjoying a fiction film isn't it.
Not for me. Fiction does not equal complete and utter nonsense. Which is what Lucas is asking me to swallow.
Martel732 wrote: Go watch saving Private Ryan. Then watch any Star Wars film. Then tell me who was better small arms: WWII armies or the stupid-ass SW fictional people. Then realize 2015 weapons are much more lethal than WWII weapons. Lucas is an idiot. And he was an idiot when we wrote Star Wars. He's a know-nothing that didn't understand how weapons really work.
IOW, just like most of science fiction, 40k included.
There is science fiction way more believable than Lucas or 40K. Trying to compare them is the intellectual equivalent of making pew-pew noise with toy soldiers. I'm wiling to buy fantastical technology as long as what transpires make sense. Nothing in SW or in 40K makes any sense at all.
Grey Templar wrote: Exactly. We might not know the properties of fancy space armor, but we do know the properties of human flesh, rocks, and trees. Blaster round don't do all that much to those, not to where we can believe the canon power outputs.
You mean from the examples of movies? Blaster rounds do a lot when they aren't hitting characters. They blow trees apart, they blow chucks out of walls, they blow chunks out of droids, they blow open gun emplacements, they blow chunks out of vehicles or initiate catastrophic destruction. They only thing they don't blow chunks out of is people, in order to maintain a PG rating. A shot that blows a fist-size chunk out of a solid wall would certainly make a mess of a rebel trooper. A vehicle mounted blaster that can blow apart a gun turret or knock down a snowspeeder with one shot would almost certainly blow a person, ewok, etc apart, but that wouldn't be PG. The canon isn't limited to PG visual effects.
What would bolter rounds do in the 40K movie, video games, etc if they had to have a PG effect? A whole lot of "nothing". Whoever got shot would just fall down with a little black mark on their skin or armor, and we would all bitch about the effects not being "canon".
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Martel732 wrote: Go watch saving Private Ryan. Then watch any Star Wars film. Then tell me who was better small arms: WWII armies or the stupid-ass SW fictional people. Then realize 2015 weapons are much more lethal than WWII weapons. Lucas is an idiot. And he was an idiot when we wrote Star Wars. He's a know-nothing that didn't understand how weapons really work.
Star Wars movies are a children-acceptable PG. Saving Private Ryan wasn't.
As badly scaled as 40k is, Star Wars is a franchise that is actually WAY worse.
Yep, and it's very inconsistent too. Part of the problem of having dozen of different writers working on the expanded universe.They can't even remember the correct size of certain ships.
Grey Templar wrote: Exactly. We might not know the properties of fancy space armor, but we do know the properties of human flesh, rocks, and trees. Blaster round don't do all that much to those, not to where we can believe the canon power outputs.
You mean from the examples of movies? Blaster rounds do a lot when they aren't hitting characters. They blow trees apart, they blow chucks out of walls, they blow chunks out of droids, they blow open gun emplacements, they blow chunks out of vehicles or initiate catastrophic destruction. They only thing they don't blow chunks out of is people, in order to maintain a PG rating. A shot that blows a fist-size chunk out of a solid wall would certainly make a mess of a rebel trooper. A vehicle mounted blaster that can blow apart a gun turret or knock down a snowspeeder with one shot would almost certainly blow a person, ewok, etc apart, but that wouldn't be PG. The canon isn't limited to PG visual effects.
What would bolter rounds do in the 40K movie, video games, etc if they had to have a PG effect? A whole lot of "nothing". Whoever got shot would just fall down with a little black mark on their skin or armor, and we would all bitch about the effects not being "canon".
Except those "chunks out of walls/trees/droids..." aren't all that impressive. And certainly not in line with what they should be doing if they had the canon levels of energy. With what we see them do to those inanimate objects is well below many modern day firearms, and definitely below what any 40k weapon does.
So our only conclusion is that Star Wars blasters are about on par with modern day firearms.
Grey Templar wrote: Exactly. We might not know the properties of fancy space armor, but we do know the properties of human flesh, rocks, and trees. Blaster round don't do all that much to those, not to where we can believe the canon power outputs.
You mean from the examples of movies? Blaster rounds do a lot when they aren't hitting characters. They blow trees apart, they blow chucks out of walls, they blow chunks out of droids, they blow open gun emplacements, they blow chunks out of vehicles or initiate catastrophic destruction. They only thing they don't blow chunks out of is people, in order to maintain a PG rating. A shot that blows a fist-size chunk out of a solid wall would certainly make a mess of a rebel trooper. A vehicle mounted blaster that can blow apart a gun turret or knock down a snowspeeder with one shot would almost certainly blow a person, ewok, etc apart, but that wouldn't be PG. The canon isn't limited to PG visual effects.
What would bolter rounds do in the 40K movie, video games, etc if they had to have a PG effect? A whole lot of "nothing". Whoever got shot would just fall down with a little black mark on their skin or armor, and we would all bitch about the effects not being "canon".
Except those "chunks out of walls/trees/droids..." aren't all that impressive. And certainly not in line with what they should be doing if they had the canon levels of energy. With what we see them do to those inanimate objects is well below many modern day firearms, and definitely below what any 40k weapon does.
So our only conclusion is that Star Wars blasters are about on par with modern day firearms.
It's very impressive since a round from a modern 30 cal machinegun will only knock a divot the size of half a dollar out of a concrete floor.
On a glancing blow. Blasters, due to being energy weapons, aren't going to deflect off of concrete. Their blast marks should be large enough to walk through.
Grey Templar wrote: Exactly. We might not know the properties of fancy space armor, but we do know the properties of human flesh, rocks, and trees. Blaster round don't do all that much to those, not to where we can believe the canon power outputs.
You mean from the examples of movies? Blaster rounds do a lot when they aren't hitting characters. They blow trees apart, they blow chucks out of walls, they blow chunks out of droids, they blow open gun emplacements, they blow chunks out of vehicles or initiate catastrophic destruction. They only thing they don't blow chunks out of is people, in order to maintain a PG rating. A shot that blows a fist-size chunk out of a solid wall would certainly make a mess of a rebel trooper. A vehicle mounted blaster that can blow apart a gun turret or knock down a snowspeeder with one shot would almost certainly blow a person, ewok, etc apart, but that wouldn't be PG. The canon isn't limited to PG visual effects.
What would bolter rounds do in the 40K movie, video games, etc if they had to have a PG effect? A whole lot of "nothing". Whoever got shot would just fall down with a little black mark on their skin or armor, and we would all bitch about the effects not being "canon".
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Martel732 wrote: Go watch saving Private Ryan. Then watch any Star Wars film. Then tell me who was better small arms: WWII armies or the stupid-ass SW fictional people. Then realize 2015 weapons are much more lethal than WWII weapons. Lucas is an idiot. And he was an idiot when we wrote Star Wars. He's a know-nothing that didn't understand how weapons really work.
Star Wars movies are a children-acceptable PG. Saving Private Ryan wasn't.
Grey Templar wrote: On a glancing blow. Blasters, due to being energy weapons, aren't going to deflect off of concrete. Their blast marks should be large enough to walk through.
Depends on how much energy is liberated when the bit of plasma hits the target.
True, heavy ship-mounted blasters can superheat and vaporize a 30 meter asteroid. But, the amount of gas which can be converted into plasma and accelerated to the target would be far higher for a capital ship versus a fighter versus a crew-served gun versus a personal blaster. So, the "standard" E-11 blaster can only vaporize a first-size chuck of wall.
It would work the same way with a glancing hit as well; the plasma isn't all going directly into the target; some of it will (and superheat a small portion of the target), some of it will continue on the path it was accelerated toward. Same with a bullet that hits concrete directly (most energy breaks apart the concrete, some breaks apart the bullet, some converted into heat and sound, etc) versus a glance. But also, keep in mind that bullet isn't vaporizing the concrete, just breaking it up. The star wars blaster (let's call them plasma guns, since they are pretty much described that way) bolts are very efficient at converting their energy into heat upon impact with a solid object.
Now, it takes an incredible amount of energy to superheat a chuck of rock so fast it turns into dust and vapor, far more than can be duplicated by a modern firearm. 7.5 Megajoules for 1 kg of rock/concrete/iron (a fist-size chuck of wall). Which, is about half the energy of a tank round.
So, back to the unimpressive E-11 blaster rifles which will be facing our stalwart Astartes. Two shots from the stormtrooper plasma rifle are the energy equivalent of being shot point blank range by an M1A1 tank. There may be some difference if that E-11 plasma bolt was converting it's energy into something else upon impact.
But, again...only unimpressive when blasters hit Greedo, stormtroopers, rebels, Ewoks, etc. Which would be superheated from room temperature to slightly under 100,000 degrees since water is so efficient at storing heat. Of course there's not enough pressure to contain the vaporizing rebel and allow the poor chap to continue to heat, so I'd assume a non-PG effect would be the area around the impact "pops" as flesh/blood/bone is near-instantly converted to steam, and most of the plasma bolt returns to gas and dissipates as there's not enough pressure to contain the target vapor and allow it to continue to rise in temperature until it converts to plasma.
Anyways, I agree...Star Wars movie blasters don't do jack when they hit rebels. But, they do have effects when they hit "stuff", that effect can be measured in joules, and those joules can be used to say what would happen if Star Wars wasn't PG and it can be compared to modern kinetic energy weapons.
I wouldn't pay much attention to the actual figure either -we're talking about a universe in which a capital ship's shields can soak up turbolaser bombardment, yet can be pierced by the guns of a single seat fighter..take your pick. Also where teddy bears with spears can beat up crack troops in full armour with laser weapons. It's for inconsistencies like this that sci-fi should be enjoyed for what it is, and not keep us awake at night worrying about whether our chapter master would get beat up by Darth Vader.
thegreatchimp wrote: I wouldn't pay much attention to the actual figure either -we're talking about a universe in which a capital ship's shields can soak up turbolaser bombardment, yet can be pierced by the guns of a single seat fighter..take your pick. Also where teddy bears with spears can beat up crack troops in full armour with laser weapons. It's for inconsistencies like this that sci-fi should be enjoyed for what it is, and not keep us awake at night worrying about whether our chapter master would get beat up by Darth Vader.
Examples for small one-man fighters making it through shields and not turbolasers (which, contrary to popular belief are not lasers), despite the fact that SW shields practically hug the the ship?
Hundreds of teddy bears with spears and many died to bring about that victory.
Examples for small one-man fighters making it through shields and not turbolasers (which, contrary to popular belief are not lasers), despite the fact that SW shields practically hug the the ship?
Hundreds of teddy bears with spears and many died to bring about that victory.
ROTJ: 2 fighters blow up an Imperial Star Destroyer's shields 2 fighters then knock out the Star Dreadnoughts shield generators, with most of the rebel capital ships bombarding it seemingly without making a scratch.
X-Wing Iron Fist, 2 wings of B-wing's take out Star Dreadnought Razor's Kiss' shield generators
And many more instances throughout the books that I can't recall off the top of my head...
re: turbolasers. Yes, I remember reading that -Star Wars lasers are actually plasma if I recall correctly?
Examples for small one-man fighters making it through shields and not turbolasers (which, contrary to popular belief are not lasers), despite the fact that SW shields practically hug the the ship?
Hundreds of teddy bears with spears and many died to bring about that victory.
ROTJ: 2 fighters blow up an Imperial Star Destroyer's shields 2 fighters then knock out the Star Dreadnoughts shield generators, with most of the rebel capital ships bombarding it seemingly without making a scratch.
X-Wing Iron Fist, 2 wings of B-wing's take out Star Dreadnought Razor's Kiss' shield generators
And many more instances throughout the books that I can't recall off the top of my head...
re: turbolasers. Yes, I remember reading that -Star Wars lasers are actually plasma if I recall correctly?
The bolts are "Tibanna Gas" that is charged until it ionizes. So functionally plasma, yes.
Happyjew wrote: Hundreds of teddy bears with spears and many died to bring about that victory.
Nope, just one. At least according to the original film. Lucas discussed it in a later interview and admitted that the ewoks should have been massacred, but in order to keep the 'happy goodguy vibe' only one actually died.
Grey Templar wrote: Exactly. We might not know the properties of fancy space armor, but we do know the properties of human flesh, rocks, and trees. Blaster round don't do all that much to those, not to where we can believe the canon power outputs.
You mean from the examples of movies? Blaster rounds do a lot when they aren't hitting characters. They blow trees apart, they blow chucks out of walls, they blow chunks out of droids, they blow open gun emplacements, they blow chunks out of vehicles or initiate catastrophic destruction. They only thing they don't blow chunks out of is people, in order to maintain a PG rating. A shot that blows a fist-size chunk out of a solid wall would certainly make a mess of a rebel trooper. A vehicle mounted blaster that can blow apart a gun turret or knock down a snowspeeder with one shot would almost certainly blow a person, ewok, etc apart, but that wouldn't be PG. The canon isn't limited to PG visual effects.
What would bolter rounds do in the 40K movie, video games, etc if they had to have a PG effect? A whole lot of "nothing". Whoever got shot would just fall down with a little black mark on their skin or armor, and we would all bitch about the effects not being "canon".
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Martel732 wrote: Go watch saving Private Ryan. Then watch any Star Wars film. Then tell me who was better small arms: WWII armies or the stupid-ass SW fictional people. Then realize 2015 weapons are much more lethal than WWII weapons. Lucas is an idiot. And he was an idiot when we wrote Star Wars. He's a know-nothing that didn't understand how weapons really work.
Star Wars movies are a children-acceptable PG. Saving Private Ryan wasn't.
I don't care about PG.
Neither do I, but I understand that's why a movie blaster rifle can vaporize rock but barely singe a human when your goal is to sell millions of dollars worth of tickets, toys and licensing rather than being accurate about thermodynamics
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Happyjew wrote: Question, where are people getting the energy output for blasters?
An educated estimate as to the composition of rocks and asteroids which are vaporized by ship or personal blasters, and the amount of time the "blast" impacts the rock. There is a formula for how much power is required to vaporize "average" rock, iron, water, etc. That power (in watts) divided by time of exposure gives energy in joules. Given different specific heats (of rock versus water) you can calculate how many kilograms of human, iron, etc can be vaporized by a shot that can vaporize x kilograms of rock. There are a couple of sites that estimate the size of asteroids vaporized by the star destroyers searching the Hoth asteroid belt in Empire Strikes Back. I used a guestimate of the chucks of wall vaporized by stormtrooper rifles in a couple of the movies.
There's some estimation involved, of course, but it gives some useful figures.
Joules also converts to foot-pounds and other measures of energy, so you can compare the energy of a plasma gun capable of vaporizing x amount of iron to modern kinetic energy projectiles.
The useful ideal taken away is that it takes a lot of energy to vaporize things with low specific heats.
Examples for small one-man fighters making it through shields and not turbolasers (which, contrary to popular belief are not lasers), despite the fact that SW shields practically hug the the ship?
Hundreds of teddy bears with spears and many died to bring about that victory.
ROTJ: 2 fighters blow up an Imperial Star Destroyer's shields 2 fighters then knock out the Star Dreadnoughts shield generators, with most of the rebel capital ships bombarding it seemingly without making a scratch.
X-Wing Iron Fist, 2 wings of B-wing's take out Star Dreadnought Razor's Kiss' shield generators
And many more instances throughout the books that I can't recall off the top of my head...
re: turbolasers. Yes, I remember reading that -Star Wars lasers are actually plasma if I recall correctly?
X-Wing Iron Fist is no longer canon.
RotJ: As you said the Imperial ships were under heavy bombardment before the shields failed. Besides, seeing as how shields can be brought back online, it would make sense to blow the generators (though technically those were sensor globes that got destroyed).
RotJ: As you said the Imperial ships were under heavy bombardment before the shields failed.
Yeah I think that was the official line on it in the books. But the comparetive damage output of a dozen capital ship's weapons and a pair of starfighters lasers and torpedoes... doesn't really hold under examination. And then an out of control starfighter takes out half the bridge tower, which is supposedly heavily enough armoured that it'd take sustained turbolaser bombardment to punch through.
Yeah, I remember when they changed the shield gens to sensor domes. Sensible retcon. They kept them as shield gens in games though.
RotJ: As you said the Imperial ships were under heavy bombardment before the shields failed.
Yeah I think that was the official line on it in the books. But the comparetive damage output of a dozen capital ship's weapons and a pair of starfighters lasers and torpedoes... doesn't really hold under examination. And then an out of control starfighter takes out half the bridge tower, which is supposedly heavily enough armoured that it'd take sustained turbolaser bombardment to punch through.
Yeah, I remember when they changed the shield gens to sensor domes. Sensible retcon. They kept them as shield gens in games though.
Actually you'll notice that the out of control A-wing crashes through the window of the Command Bridge.
Actually you'll notice that the out of control A-wing crashes through the window of the Command Bridge.
Aren't those windows supposed to be as strong as the hull? Transpareant alloys or suchlike? It is of course possible I'm confusing that with another universe...
Peregrine wrote: Imperium wins on the ground, the Empire wins in space. Star Wars ships are roughly comparable in firepower and durability, but have an obscene advantage in strategic mobility. A Star Wars ship can cross the entire galaxy in a matter of hours, with no concerns about being off-target or delayed for a few thousand years. The war would be over before the Imperium is even able to realize it has started, as key planets are destroyed by orbital bombardment and any attempt to deploy the Imperium's own ships is met with overwhelming force.
No they don't. The Imperium's ships have gigaton and teraton level firepower. The Empire's turbolasers are only comparable to nukes in the height of the Cold War or slightly above (we've seen fights in-atmosphere between the CIS and Republic, there are no nuclear fireballs despite there being oxygen to supply such things outside of space), the only thing special about Star Wars ships are the super weapons like the Death Star. Outside of that pound-for-pound they're laughably outgunned.
Remember people, the EU is retconned and shoved off to a non canon alternate universe. It's dead Jim.
carldooley wrote: Styormtroopers are roughly IG quality\equivalent on a per body basis. but the Imperium has many, MANY more. The SM would ignore the conflict on the ground - leaving that to the Guard, and take the Empire's ships away via boarding actions.
Stormtroopers are more equivalent to Stormtroopers - well, Scions - actually.
Thing is, Stormtroopers know what will happen if their blaster bolts actually go near anyone wielding a lightsaber, so they miss on purpose.
No they aren't. Stormtrooper Plastoid armor is comparable to flak in terms of protection- it prevents them from dying from fragmenation such as grenades or general explosives, but completely folds with kinetic based attacks as seen in the Clone Wars or on Endor. Scion Armor meanwhile is capable of even tanking glancing shots from bolters, which is extremely impressive given that getting hit by a bolter is similar to being struck by an APHE 20mm or 30mm cannon and not getting organs turned into jello.
Stormtrooper Blasters meanwhile are only comparable to a standard lasgun, and not hotshot/hellguns.
Iron_Captain wrote: Clone/Storm Troopers can't even hit a target at 10 meters... The only reason they won the Clone Wars is because the battle droids were even worse at fighting No wonder the Empire was defeated by a bunch of rebels led by a farmer with a lightsaber.
Hey now, in the American Revolution the British Empire was beaten by a bunch of rebels led by a farmer with false teeth.
Don't underestimate a properly-equipped farmer.
I understand this is sarcasm, but the British Empire lost because a proxy war against the French Empire just after a massive true first world war (the seven year's war) across the Atlantic simply was not feasible with the single purpose of keeping the colonies as a captive market for trade.
Psienesis wrote: Nah, in False Emperor, the Emperor's Guard are carved through like butter. They're good against mooks, even really good mooks, but they've nothing against a Space Marine.
You mean the Flashpoint in SW:TOR? Because if so mobs in a dungeon don't really count (I mean c'mon, Malgus and Revan being brought down by 5 people? Silliness).
In the lore, the Emperor's Guard are badasses, even Dark Council members are scared of them and they handily beat Dark Council members a few times with little effort.
Oh, and if we can use the EU (since 40K lore vs the sliver of SW lore in the films alone is unfair), Emperor Vitiate alone would destroy planets without an army, and not forgetting the Planet sized force storm Palpatine can conjure. Or the absolute martial prowess of Tulak Hord, or Exar Kun, or Mace Windu, who would put 99% of the 40K universe to shame. And as far as psykers go, Force users aren't prone to getting their minds destroyed by the warp for using their powers.
Although, SW characters V their 40K analogues would be far more interesting
Rogal Dorn V Obi Wan Kenobi, the two most defensive combatants in either canon slogging it out
Angron V Darth Malgus, RAEG v Rage
I could keep going forever
Primarchs are stupidly more powerful than Jedi, to the point that it would be debatable if lightsabers would even pose a serious threat. Primarch flesh for exmaple is strong enough to suffer minor bruises from blows that shatter power armor or tank armor, not to mention the Primarchs themselves move faster than most Jedi.
Jedi Knights would be given a tough fight by normal Space Marines, and normal Librarians would probably kill most Masters and Sith when push comes to shove. Primarchs would kill them in the opening blow after the supersonic boom of their movement.
Grey Templar wrote: On a glancing blow. Blasters, due to being energy weapons, aren't going to deflect off of concrete. Their blast marks should be large enough to walk through.
Depends on how much energy is liberated when the bit of plasma hits the target.
True, heavy ship-mounted blasters can superheat and vaporize a 30 meter asteroid. But, the amount of gas which can be converted into plasma and accelerated to the target would be far higher for a capital ship versus a fighter versus a crew-served gun versus a personal blaster. So, the "standard" E-11 blaster can only vaporize a first-size chuck of wall.
It would work the same way with a glancing hit as well; the plasma isn't all going directly into the target; some of it will (and superheat a small portion of the target), some of it will continue on the path it was accelerated toward. Same with a bullet that hits concrete directly (most energy breaks apart the concrete, some breaks apart the bullet, some converted into heat and sound, etc) versus a glance. But also, keep in mind that bullet isn't vaporizing the concrete, just breaking it up. The star wars blaster (let's call them plasma guns, since they are pretty much described that way) bolts are very efficient at converting their energy into heat upon impact with a solid object.
Now, it takes an incredible amount of energy to superheat a chuck of rock so fast it turns into dust and vapor, far more than can be duplicated by a modern firearm. 7.5 Megajoules for 1 kg of rock/concrete/iron (a fist-size chuck of wall). Which, is about half the energy of a tank round.
So, back to the unimpressive E-11 blaster rifles which will be facing our stalwart Astartes. Two shots from the stormtrooper plasma rifle are the energy equivalent of being shot point blank range by an M1A1 tank. There may be some difference if that E-11 plasma bolt was converting it's energy into something else upon impact.
But, again...only unimpressive when blasters hit Greedo, stormtroopers, rebels, Ewoks, etc. Which would be superheated from room temperature to slightly under 100,000 degrees since water is so efficient at storing heat. Of course there's not enough pressure to contain the vaporizing rebel and allow the poor chap to continue to heat, so I'd assume a non-PG effect would be the area around the impact "pops" as flesh/blood/bone is near-instantly converted to steam, and most of the plasma bolt returns to gas and dissipates as there's not enough pressure to contain the target vapor and allow it to continue to rise in temperature until it converts to plasma.
Anyways, I agree...Star Wars movie blasters don't do jack when they hit rebels. But, they do have effects when they hit "stuff", that effect can be measured in joules, and those joules can be used to say what would happen if Star Wars wasn't PG and it can be compared to modern kinetic energy weapons.
It doesn't matter if Blasters are even capable of megajoule level shots, because we know two things-
1) Everybody in Star Wars is too damn stupid to use those firepower settings against anything that isn't a wall, much like phasers in Star Trek. It doesn't matter how powerful the weapon is if the blockhead using it doesn't even remember how to properly use it in the first place without breaking out of character.
2) Those megajoule level shots are questionable in the first place considering the unarmored humans standing near those shots do not suddenly ignite/melt. Not to mention that blasters actually have kick, so firing off megajoule shots should definitely have a very visible effect on their shoulders.
If we use some EU sources, its also shown that Jedi have issues with solid projectile weaponry as they cannot deflect the projectiles as easy as blaster bolts. And the first jedi who tries to block a Bolt shell is going to end up with a face full of shrapnel. Not to mention he'd be fighting an opponent with better base reflexes and at best the Force lets him move equally fast, if he specialized in enhancement force powers that is.
If we talk ground forces in general, Star Wars has a chronic lack of actual military ground forces and equipment. Star Wars 'Armies' that would be dwarfed by the entire armed forces of most European countries take entire star systems full of billions of people. The Star Wars universe is basically full of wussies. The Imperium has lost more men taking single cities than made up the entire Grand Army of the Republic and the Separatist forces combined.
Star Wars vehicles make 40k seem immensely practical. The AT-AT, the most powerful assault walker in Star Wars, is basically a sitting duck. Its slow, is chronically under-gunned, has a turning radius the size of a city block, and doesn't even have shielding to compensate for it being a bullet sponge. Titans at least have insanely powerful shields and decent speed and maneuverability to cover them being so large.
Grey Templar wrote: If we use some EU sources, its also shown that Jedi have issues with solid projectile weaponry as they cannot deflect the projectiles as easy as blaster bolts. And the first jedi who tries to block a Bolt shell is going to end up with a face full of shrapnel. Not to mention he'd be fighting an opponent with better base reflexes and at best the Force lets him move equally fast, if he specialized in enhancement force powers that is.
If we talk ground forces in general, Star Wars has a chronic lack of actual military ground forces and equipment. Star Wars 'Armies' that would be dwarfed by the entire armed forces of most European countries take entire star systems full of billions of people. The Star Wars universe is basically full of wussies. The Imperium has lost more men taking single cities than made up the entire Grand Army of the Republic and the Separatist forces combined.
Star Wars vehicles make 40k seem immensely practical. The AT-AT, the most powerful assault walker in Star Wars, is basically a sitting duck. Its slow, is chronically under-gunned, has a turning radius the size of a city block, and doesn't even have shielding to compensate for it being a bullet sponge. Titans at least have insanely powerful shields and decent speed and maneuverability to cover them being so large.
Not even that. If a Jedi tried to block a solid slug with his lightsaber, IE a normal bullet, the lightsaber would vaporize the bullet... but the hot gas the bullet turned into would maintain momentum. So all the Jedi would do is get scalding air puffing into his face giving him/her third or second degree burns.
Wyzilla wrote: No they don't. The Imperium's ships have gigaton and teraton level firepower. The Empire's turbolasers are only comparable to nukes in the height of the Cold War or slightly above (we've seen fights in-atmosphere between the CIS and Republic, there are no nuclear fireballs despite there being oxygen to supply such things outside of space), the only thing special about Star Wars ships are the super weapons like the Death Star. Outside of that pound-for-pound they're laughably outgunned.
The EU numbers only confirmed what was already known from analyzing the films. Getting rid of the EU means losing the exact answer, but there's still pretty clear evidence that Star Wars ship weapons are in the same general class as 40k weapons.
Also, you do realize that this "we don't see extinction-level events" argument applies just as well to 40k, right? We see 40k starships firing at ground targets all the time and the effect often seems to be barely more than some real-world mortar shells.
Remember people, the EU is retconned and shoved off to a non canon alternate universe. It's dead Jim.
This is a serious misunderstanding of a vague quote. We know that Disney will not hesitate to contradict EU material in the future, but they haven't explicitly said that the old EU material is all discarded. In fact the old EU books/games/etc are still being sold, things from the old EU are still being referenced in current licensed products, and Disney seems to be perfectly happy to have a 40k-style canon policy where everything is true from a certain point of view and the individual fan gets to decide what is in their personal version of Star Wars.
Grey Templar wrote: If we talk ground forces in general, Star Wars has a chronic lack of actual military ground forces and equipment. Star Wars 'Armies' that would be dwarfed by the entire armed forces of most European countries take entire star systems full of billions of people.
Grey Templar wrote: If we talk ground forces in general, Star Wars has a chronic lack of actual military ground forces and equipment. Star Wars 'Armies' that would be dwarfed by the entire armed forces of most European countries take entire star systems full of billions of people.
So, just like 40k.
No, 40k armies are massive. Millions, or sometimes billions, of guardsmen will be deployed to take a single planet.
Overall the IG consists of billions upon billions of soldiers, and the Imperium alone has so many people living in it they cannot even count them all.
Grey Templar wrote: No, 40k armies are massive. Millions, or sometimes billions, of guardsmen will be deployed to take a single planet.
Overall the IG consists of billions upon billions of soldiers, and the Imperium alone has so many people living in it they cannot even count them all.
And then, contrasting with that, we have things like the siege of Vraks where 14 million dead guardsmen in 17 years is considered a really huge number despite being less than the casualties in WWI and spread out over three times longer. Or the idea that a squad or two of space marines can conquer an entire planet.
Wyzilla wrote: No they don't. The Imperium's ships have gigaton and teraton level firepower. The Empire's turbolasers are only comparable to nukes in the height of the Cold War or slightly above (we've seen fights in-atmosphere between the CIS and Republic, there are no nuclear fireballs despite there being oxygen to supply such things outside of space), the only thing special about Star Wars ships are the super weapons like the Death Star. Outside of that pound-for-pound they're laughably outgunned.
The EU numbers only confirmed what was already known from analyzing the films. Getting rid of the EU means losing the exact answer, but there's still pretty clear evidence that Star Wars ship weapons are in the same general class as 40k weapons.
No it doesn't. The EU gives triple digit gigatons as yields for some of the weakest ships in the Clone Wars, when anybody with a brain can clearly see in the Clone Wars TV show this is not the case given the lack of fireballs obscuring the entire screen from view.
Here we clearly see the capital ships of the Republic Navy slugging it out with CIS frigates in-atmosphere, and there is a very clear lack of terrific fireballs preventing us from seeing anything, at all.
Also, you do realize that this "we don't see extinction-level events" argument applies just as well to 40k, right? We see 40k starships firing at ground targets all the time and the effect often seems to be barely more than some real-world mortar shells.
Or you've suddenly forgotten the number one rule of all combat in 40k- planets are sacred and to slag them is the most heinous crime unless there is absolutely no other option. Not even Chaos is often willing to slag planets because they actually want something they can use after the battle, although we still have plenty of examples of gigaton or teraton levels of firepower. Or have you forgotten that the Night Lords Fleet managed to completely blow up Nostrmo merely with concentrated lance fire for a day?
(Not to mention that Nostramo blew up in such a terrific fashion that you can find chunks of it over two hundred lightyears from its original point, which speaks for some truly hilarious acceleration from the explosion.)
Remember people, the EU is retconned and shoved off to a non canon alternate universe. It's dead Jim.
This is a serious misunderstanding of a vague quote. We know that Disney will not hesitate to contradict EU material in the future, but they haven't explicitly said that the old EU material is all discarded. In fact the old EU books/games/etc are still being sold, things from the old EU are still being referenced in current licensed products, and Disney seems to be perfectly happy to have a 40k-style canon policy where everything is true from a certain point of view and the individual fan gets to decide what is in their personal version of Star Wars.
Only if your primary language isn't English. Disney directly retconned the EU, to the point it made actual headlines of some online papers and on twitter they made it even clearer that the EU is no longer canon- it's part of the Legends universe which is the old continuity onto itself, and is no longer being updated. It's dead. Disney/Lucasfilm doesn't give a flying feth about what the fans think concerning the continuity of the old universe, they wiped it clean for the new movies, new books, new shows, and new games.
And of course they're still being sold, DIsney wants money. That has nothing to do with them being canon. There's no 40k 'well it's whatever you like policy', they brought the hammer down on the old EU, and you'd know this if you weren't living under a rock.
The only way stuff from the EU is reappearing in Star Wars is if shows like Rebels or the new officially approved books basically cannibalize the old material and rip off the work of previous authors.
As of today, the official, canonical story of Star Wars consists of "the six Star Wars episodes, and the many hours of content [George Lucas] developed and produced in Star Wars: The Clone Wars." (This includes the upcoming Darth Maul comic adapted from TCW material.)
Wyzilla wrote: No it doesn't. The EU gives triple digit gigatons as yields for some of the weakest ships in the Clone Wars, when anybody with a brain can clearly see in the Clone Wars TV show this is not the case given the lack of fireballs obscuring the entire screen from view.
Or you've suddenly forgotten the number one rule of all combat in 40k- planets are sacred and to slag them is the most heinous crime unless there is absolutely no other option. Not even Chaos is often willing to slag planets because they actually want something they can use after the battle, although we still have plenty of examples of gigaton or teraton levels of firepower. Or have you forgotten that the Night Lords Fleet managed to completely blow up Nostrmo merely with concentrated lance fire for a day?
I see. So "they don't use their full firepower when they might damage planets beyond repair" applies to 40k, but nobody could possibly use the same principle in Star Wars?
Disney directly retconned the EU, to the point it made actual headlines of some online papers and on twitter they made it even clearer that the EU is no longer canon- it's part of the Legends universe which is the old continuity onto itself, and is no longer being updated.
The fact that some news sources were very loud about their misunderstanding doesn't make it correct. Did you actually read the announcement you linked to? I'll copy/paste the important part for you here:
While the universe that readers knew is changing, it is not being discarded.
So I think I'll take an official statement that the EU is not discarded over fan theories that it is.
It looks bleak for the SW universe, but let's not forget plot armour. I would put jar-jar binks against a chapter of space marines and expect him to accidentally come out on top. Mesa do that?
There are three possible canons you could use to debate this,
1. New Canon. Which is the movies, the clone wars TV show, and anything made after Disney's acquisition. It's pretty grim for the Star Wars Galaxy in this canon.
2. The Old Expanded Universe. The entire 40k galaxy is in trouble.
3. The Expanded Universe + Qualifying Infinities story lines. Eh feth this one. We didn't even count infinities when the expanded universe was a thing. But probably even more ultra fethed depending on which infinity universe your using. They were essentially one of what if stories. So hypothetically if someone chose this from a debate point they could.
Mallich wrote: Did the Stormtroopers graduate from the Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy? If so they'll all have a Ballistic Skill of minus 2.
Lets look at instances of Stormtroopers shooting that we know of:
A New Hope
Battle on the Tantive IV: Stormtroopers are expert marksmen, killing and stunning with the best of them
Hunting the droids on Tatoonie: disabling a Sandcrawler, slaughtering countless Jawa and killing Beru and Owen
Mos Eisley Spaceport: Shots land on the Falcon but miss Han
Death Star encounters: Keeping up with Leia, Luke and Han as they make way to the dock
Battle of Yavin: Every single fighting is destroyed or damaged except for Luke
Empire Strikes Back
The Battle of Hoth: Obvious Imperial victory, Stormtroopers are extremely successful. Rebel ships escape due to the ion cannon, which was unknown to the Empire.
Escape from Hoth: The Falcon escapes Imperial capture by luck and skill of Han
Cloud City: The troopers constantly miss hitting Luke. Lando, Leia and Chewie escape because the Cloud City guards intervene against the Empire, whom they outnumbered.
Return of the Jedi
Speeder Bike chase on Endor: Luke and Leia survive and kill several scouts
Shield Generator: The Rebels win thanks to the Ewoks and get in. Discovered that it was a trap and they were captured.
Battle over Endor: Rebels get their butts handed to them by the Imperial Fleet.
Battle over Endor part 2: Rebels win and destroy the Death Star once the shield was brought down.
Now, here's the point. In ANH, all the times we see the Empire sucking at combat was on the Death Star as the trio made their escape. Their escape, aboard the Falcon that had been outfitted with a tracking device, a tracking device that led the Empire to the Rebel base on Yavin. They were allowed to escape because that escape took the Empire to where the Rebellion leadership was, and in one move they would have crippled the Rebellion. The Battle of the First Death Star was an evenly matched fight, barely won by the Rebels due to them finding a weakness in the station that the Empire didn't consider significant.
In ESB, the only time the Empire sucks at fighting is on Cloud City, against Luke. Due to their fighting Luke ended up in the Freezing Chamber where Vader was waiting for him. Ever think that maybe that was their orders, lead him to where Vader wanted him so that he could try and turn him? Lando and Leia only got away because of the Cloud City Guards, who outnumbered the Empire.
In RTJ the Empire loses at the Shield Generator and in the Battle of the Second Death Star. The Battle of the Second Death Star was only lost due to the Shield Generator going down, otherwise it would have ended in a defeat for the Rebellion, a major defeat. The Rebels winning at the generator was only due to the Ewoks, which the Empire didn't consider a threat and didn't anticipate being part of the battle. Even still, the Empire would have still won because they captured Han and his team in the Generator Station. That was only turned around because Chewie had managed to capture and take control of an AT-ST earlier. Had Chewie not gotten into that AT-ST the rebels would have never destroyed the generator and by extension the Death Star.
The point of all this? The only times the Stormtroopers (and whole of the Empire) does poorly was when it benefited the plans of Vader and the Emperor. The only exception to this was the Battle on Endor, which was because they underestimated the Ewoks and were unprepared for them and their style of combat. So, in the end, no, the Stormtroopers and Empire were not bad shots, in fact, it's the opposite.
Psienesis wrote: They killed Owen and Beru by setting the house on fire. They didn't shoot them, they were blackened corpses on the ground.
The bodies weren't bound, and the house wasn't that badly destroyed. They were probably shot first, and the fire was started by accident. Remember, the Stormies were there for information, it wasn't a terror attack.
Round 1: 1 Space Marine vs 1 Storm Trooper (Star Wars)
SPACE MARINE
Round 2: 10 Space Marines vs 100 Storm Troopers
SPACE MARINE
Round 3: 1 Space Marine Terminator vs 10 Emperor's Guard
EMPEROR"S GUARD
Round 4: 1 Space Marine Chapter including vehicles vs Stormtrooper Regiment (2500 Stormtroopers plus vehicles)
SPACE MARINES
Round 5: All resources from the Imperium (1 million Space Marines, billions of Guardsmen, and so on) vs all soldiers and military units portrayed in the Star Wars movies (Stormtroopers, Clones, Rebels, and so on)
Location: The Hoth system.
IMPERIAL FLEET (star wars) WIPES THE FLOOR WITH IMPERIUM FLEET WHO DON"T EVEN KNOW HOW THIER SHIPS FULLY WORK. BOOTS ON GROUND DON'T MATTER IMPERIAL FORCES LAUGH AND LEAVE SPACE MARINES AND OTHER FORCES TO DIE OF STARVATION AND COLD EXPOSURE AFTER BOMBING THE HELL OUT OF ANY SPACECRAFT SO THEY CAN"T ESCAPE.
K. Just wondering, what weapons do the SW ships have? Since pretty much all bigger SM ships can call Exterminatus. One method for this are plasma rockets, which will destroy everything you point it at.
Not even that. If a Jedi tried to block a solid slug with his lightsaber, IE a normal bullet, the lightsaber would vaporize the bullet... but the hot gas the bullet turned into would maintain momentum. So all the Jedi would do is get scalding air puffing into his face giving him/her third or second degree burns.
I'd say space combat is a wash. The Empire's vessels can potentially bring all of their firepower to bear due to the wedge shape, and have gravity well generators and other high-tech hijinks. The Imperium has superior armor on their ships (SW ships rely almost completely on shields) in addition to void shields, and makes use of boarding torpedoes.
Edit: That's assuming everyone just dukes it out over Hoth. In a wider conflict, SW vessels have advantage in mobility.
asorel wrote: That's when you switch to Dragonfire rounds. Or send in a Culexus.
The rounds would still get force swept away, and force users aren't psykers.
It's an energy that flows through all living things and the domain of the dead. Certain individuals are attuned to it, and know how to harness that energy. That's the Realm of Souls (pre war in heaven Warp) in a nutshell.
Another thought about a situation where the 2 Universes get connected by some kind of passage is that the Universes are not unfied. You would actually get a spliting of factional alliances.
I could see Sith and Chaos colluding for example. What about Eldar, Tau, and Orks? Tyranids might start pouring into the Star Wars galaxy and F their S up.
Matthew wrote: K. Just wondering, what weapons do the SW ships have? Since pretty much all bigger SM ships can call Exterminatus. One method for this are plasma rockets, which will destroy everything you point it at.
Also, what weapons do the Emperor's Guard have?
Ion Cannons several different types for different roles
Turbo Lasers same as above (from massive devastating short range blasts to long range steady barrages)
Some Super Star Destroyer's had a single death star laser equipped on them B.D. (Before Disney who know if its still canon)
Quad Gun Turrets for anti squadron
Cluster Bombs for the same
Ordnances include:
Assault Concussion Missiles (designed to destroy shielding faster)
Proton Torpedoes (different types, some designed to bypass shielding some for massive yield)
Others
Electronic counter measures and point defense systems to defend ship from incoming ordinance.
specialized well trained crews
Sun Crusher tech B.D.
Stealth technology and cloaking
standard TIE is superior to standard Imperium navy fighter
Emperor's Guard (not to confused with similar elite guard of the old republic for the Chancellors) we're force sensitive and trained via force for combat only, they wielded staves that were probably like a power maul while not overly powerful. The force speed and strength would be overwhelming.
I'd say a terminator would at least put a dent in them before he fell. certainly a few to half would be soup to the power fist.
You would think they could just use the force to telekenetically stop it in the air or adjust it's trajectory away from them.
Yet the demonstrations from the EU show that Jedi have issues doing that with solid slug weaponry.
Then why do they keep using blasters to fight them? I always find it funny when they use futuristic weaponry in Sci Fi when it often seems at best on par with conventional weapons and usually has some kind of majore drawback.
It reminds me of the Star Trek movie where Picard lures the Borg onto the holodeck and uses a tommygun to mow down scores of borg and their shields are useless. Why not replicate projectile weapons instead whenever fighting the borg?
You would think they could just use the force to telekenetically stop it in the air or adjust it's trajectory away from them.
Yet the demonstrations from the EU show that Jedi have issues doing that with solid slug weaponry.
Then why do they keep using blasters to fight them? I always find it funny when they use futuristic weaponry in Sci Fi when it often seems at best on par with conventional weapons and usually has some kind of majore drawback.
It reminds me of the Star Trek movie where Picard lures the Borg onto the holodeck and uses a tommygun to mow down scores of borg and their shields are useless. Why not replicate projectile weapons instead whenever fighting the borg?
Partly to make the jedi/force sensitives look better/cooler, the other major reason is likely because its a waste of resources to make slug-throwers when its only really useful against force sensitives which are a tiny part of the population compared to all the other guys you have to face where blasters are more effective.
Partly to make the jedi/force sensitives look better/cooler, the other major reason is likely because its a waste of resources to make slug-throwers when its only really useful against force sensitives which are a tiny part of the population compared to all the other guys you have to face where blasters are more effective.
Storm Trooper armor doesn't seem to offer any protection against blasters, and even Ewok arrows/slingshots seem to decimate Storm Troopers. So what are blasters better at doing?
Storm Trooper armor doesn't seem to offer any protection against blasters, and even Ewok arrows/slingshots seem to decimate Storm Troopers. So what are blasters better at doing?
Repurposing old gun props without it being 100% obvious that they were previously used by Nazis and Daleks.
As for ground battles..... Storm troopers got beaten by bears with spears. A single SM would wade thru the entire ewok population without thinking about it.
Matthew wrote: K. Just wondering, what weapons do the SW ships have? Since pretty much all bigger SM ships can call Exterminatus. One method for this are plasma rockets, which will destroy everything you point it at.
Also, what weapons do the Emperor's Guard have?
Star Wars ships are armed with turbolasers (funky technobabble plasma), ion cannons (ionized plasma), concussion torpedoes (ship mounted, only appearing in Legends IIRC), and proton torpedoes. Legends has more variety than this, but the basic armament of all ships will have a variety of these four types.
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asorel wrote: I'd say space combat is a wash. The Empire's vessels can potentially bring all of their firepower to bear due to the wedge shape, and have gravity well generators and other high-tech hijinks. The Imperium has superior armor on their ships (SW ships rely almost completely on shields) in addition to void shields, and makes use of boarding torpedoes.
Edit: That's assuming everyone just dukes it out over Hoth. In a wider conflict, SW vessels have advantage in mobility.
It doesn't matter what firepower the Galactic Empire can bring to bear. IOM ships are a OOM greater when it comes to firepower they dish out and firepower they can tank.
asorel wrote: That's when you switch to Dragonfire rounds. Or send in a Culexus.
The rounds would still get force swept away, and force users aren't psykers.
Culexus will still stop a Jedi cold. They cause all life to start gibbering in madness due to the horror of meeting something that literally is a soulless monstrosity. This works even against Tau.
While there's a broad variety of warheads and missile-types, yeah, it's basically "some big guns" "some small guns" "some missiles and/or bombs" and "some weird space-magic weapon" (tractor beams, gravity rays, etc).
Matthew wrote: K. Just wondering, what weapons do the SW ships have? Since pretty much all bigger SM ships can call Exterminatus. One method for this are plasma rockets, which will destroy everything you point it at.
Also, what weapons do the Emperor's Guard have?
Ion Cannons several different types for different roles
Turbo Lasers same as above (from massive devastating short range blasts to long range steady barrages)
Some Super Star Destroyer's had a single death star laser equipped on them B.D. (Before Disney who know if its still canon)
Quad Gun Turrets for anti squadron
Cluster Bombs for the same
Ordnances include:
Assault Concussion Missiles (designed to destroy shielding faster)
Proton Torpedoes (different types, some designed to bypass shielding some for massive yield)
Others
Electronic counter measures and point defense systems to defend ship from incoming ordinance.
specialized well trained crews
Sun Crusher tech B.D.
Stealth technology and cloaking
standard TIE is superior to standard Imperium navy fighter
Emperor's Guard (not to confused with similar elite guard of the old republic for the Chancellors) we're force sensitive and trained via force for combat only, they wielded staves that were probably like a power maul while not overly powerful. The force speed and strength would be overwhelming.
I'd say a terminator would at least put a dent in them before he fell. certainly a few to half would be soup to the power fist.
The Royal Guard aren't even capable of damaging terminator armor dude. You also don't seem to understand just how fast Space Marines move, because Astartes are speedsters themselves and can pluck supersonic munitions out of the air. A Terminator will be just as fast as the Royal Guard, only single hits from him will instantly kill any Red Guard they hit, same with the Terminator's weapons. Royal Guard armor will certainly not stand up to bolter shots, as even if they somehow fail to penn, the pure kinetic energy of a .75 supersonic mini rocket will turn organs into jello.
As for ground battles..... Storm troopers got beaten by bears with spears. A single SM would wade thru the entire ewok population without thinking about it.
That chart is incorrect and also forgets to incorporate the bigger IOM flagships. Which are in the twenty kilometer ballpark.
(Also for that matter, star forts, which are semi-mobile and sometimes have their own warp drives, and can be the size of continents. These also can be mass produced.)
Partly to make the jedi/force sensitives look better/cooler, the other major reason is likely because its a waste of resources to make slug-throwers when its only really useful against force sensitives which are a tiny part of the population compared to all the other guys you have to face where blasters are more effective.
Storm Trooper armor doesn't seem to offer any protection against blasters, and even Ewok arrows/slingshots seem to decimate Storm Troopers. So what are blasters better at doing?
Stormtrooper armor is for protection against shrapnel, like real life body armor. It can possibly at least reduce the lethality of a blaster strike to a wounded casualty (we don't know if the guys in the movies are actually dead), but is very good at absorbing shockwaves from explosions. In the new Rebel series we see starfighters running strafing runs near stormtroopers and bombs going off right by them without dying instantly.
The Royal Guard aren't even capable of damaging terminator armor dude. You also don't seem to understand just how fast Space Marines move, because Astartes are speedsters themselves and can pluck supersonic munitions out of the air. A Terminator will be just as fast as the Royal Guard, only single hits from him will instantly kill any Red Guard they hit, same with the Terminator's weapons. Royal Guard armor will certainly not stand up to bolter shots, as even if they somehow fail to penn, the pure kinetic energy of a .75 supersonic mini rocket will turn organs into jello.
What are you basing this on that Terminators can move that fast? Aren't they still limited by the physical constraints of their body/power armor even as enhanced as it might be? Can't the force be used to mess with the power armor too?
The Royal Guard aren't even capable of damaging terminator armor dude. You also don't seem to understand just how fast Space Marines move, because Astartes are speedsters themselves and can pluck supersonic munitions out of the air. A Terminator will be just as fast as the Royal Guard, only single hits from him will instantly kill any Red Guard they hit, same with the Terminator's weapons. Royal Guard armor will certainly not stand up to bolter shots, as even if they somehow fail to penn, the pure kinetic energy of a .75 supersonic mini rocket will turn organs into jello.
What are you basing this on that Terminators can move that fast? Aren't they still limited by the physical constraints of their body/power armor even as enhanced as it might be? Can't the force be used to mess with the power armor too?
Actually I'll to retract that, I was mis-remembering the Blood Gorgon's trilogy when it was the Chaos Lord in PA grabbing bolts and smacking them out of the air, not the Nurglite Lord in terminator armor. Although the armor can't slow them down that much considering Terminators can still duel power armor dressed Astartes wielding power swords without being turned into adamantium wrapped sushi.
But the Royal Guard doesn't even carry weapons that can penetrate power armor, let alone terminator plate, so it isn't much an issue to begin with. Force Pikes won't do anything to power armor as power armor is non-conductive (On Murder Astartes were tanking lightning strikes that vitrified the ground and causes massive craters without any harm, only getting knocked off their feet) and they lack the ability to carve through armor.
Battle over Endor: Rebels get their butts handed to them by the Imperial Fleet.
There are moments when stormtroopers are shown to be badass -the storming of Leia's ship at the beginning of Ep 4 for example, but they're portrayed as less than impressive in subsequent fights, whatever their true abilities in the fluff.
Still that's a good list, very estensive and fair play.
The one thing I'll have to just say "No!" to is the above mention of the space battle at Endor. The Empre outpowered the rebels by 15:1, not including a certain fully armed and operational battle station. Despite that the Rebels managed to incapacitate the Star Dreadnought Executor and take out several accompanying Star Destoyers. That is as much as quoted in Heir to the Empire by Timothy Zahn. In short the empire did woefully considering the forces at thier disposal.
Psienesis wrote: They killed Owen and Beru by setting the house on fire. They didn't shoot them, they were blackened corpses on the ground.
Source? All that is known is that they were burned corpses when Luke arrived. I submit that the Empire shot them when they wouldn't tell were Luke was and then burned the corpses along with the homestead.
The toss up is the Emperor's Guard v the Terminator.
I assume equal martial prowess on a man-to-man basis and force-sensitivity by the EG, The EG are "handpicked from the very best of his forces. Out of millions of soldiers, they are unsurpassed." Sounds kind of like a Marine.
If the EG are Force-sensitives, they would win based on numbers and vibrostaff/force pike technology which is basically the same as a power weapon.
So I'd say the terminator is in pretty big trouble...you can only roll so many 2s.
Wyzilla wrote: You also don't seem to understand just how fast Space Marines move, because Astartes are speedsters themselves and can pluck supersonic munitions out of the air.
And yet when GW showed us what space marine combat looks like we don't see any of this speed. In fact, space marines seem to move slower than normal humans, with their heavy armor apparently giving them protection and raw strength at the expense of speed and agility.
The toss up is the Emperor's Guard v the Terminator.
I assume equal martial prowess on a man-to-man basis and force-sensitivity by the EG, The EG are "handpicked from the very best of his forces. Out of millions of soldiers, they are unsurpassed." Sounds kind of like a Marine.
If the EG are Force-sensitives, they would win based on numbers and vibrostaff/force pike technology which is basically the same as a power weapon.
So I'd say the terminator is in pretty big trouble...you can only roll so many 2s.
FFS people. Force Pikes and vibro weapons are NOTHING like power weapons. Vibrostaffs can only cut through that which they can sonically excite, and force pikes literally won't do anything to power armor. They're a glorified taser stick.
Wyzilla wrote: You also don't seem to understand just how fast Space Marines move, because Astartes are speedsters themselves and can pluck supersonic munitions out of the air.
And yet when GW showed us what space marine combat looks like we don't see any of this speed. In fact, space marines seem to move slower than normal humans, with their heavy armor apparently giving them protection and raw strength at the expense of speed and agility.
Yes, and in those novels we quite clearly see them smacking aside supersonic munitions. Peregrine, why are you even still here? I remember you specifically stating you were done with 40k, yet you came back and still try to instill this hilarious "reasonable" 40k on a franchise that makes as much sense as Marvel. Give up trying to apply any sense or logic to 40k, it doesn't work.
Transhuman dread. Aximand had heard iterators talk of the condition. He’d heard descriptions of it from regular Army officers too. The sight of an Adeptus Astartes was one thing: taller and broader than a man could ever be, armoured like a demigod. The singularity of purpose was self-evident. An Adeptus Astartes was designed to fight and kill anything that didn’t annihilate it first. If you saw an Adeptus Astartes, you knew you were in trouble. The appearance alone cowed you with fear. But to see one move. Apparently that was the real thing. Nothing human-shaped should be so fast, so lithe, so powerful, especially not anything in excess of two metres tall and carrying more armour than four normal men could lift. The sight of an Adeptus Astartes was one thing, but the moving fact of one was quite another. The psychologists called it transhuman dread. It froze a man, stuck him to the ground, caused his mind to lock up, made him lose control of bladder and bowel. Something huge and warlike gave pause: something huge and warlike and moving with the speed of a striking snake, that was when you knew that gods moved amongst men, and that there existed a scale of strength and speed beyond anything mortal, and that you were about to die and, if you were really lucking, there might be just enough time to piss yourself first.
-Age Of Darkness Page 163
Combat reflexes took over and Rafen drew his bolt pistol in a fraction of a second, his other hand snatching at the hilt of the battle knife resting in a sheath along the line of his spine. He fired a single shot at the High Chaplain, aiming low, aiming to wound, to slow him down. But he might well have called out his intentions in a shout. Astorath swept his blade aside and intercepted the bolt mid-flight with a crack of sound, the round blasting harmlessly into the dirt. Rafen dodged to one side as the weapon’s fast, fluid arc bisected the space where he had been standing, and he rolled, tumbling over red dirt and half-buried rocks.
-Hammer and Bolter. Redeemed Page 231-232
As the shell seared past, Rangar threw himself flat behind the low pile of rubble trying to make himself as small a target as possible. That had been close, too close. The shot had almost parted his hair. Only his lightning quick reflexes, and the microsecond's warning provided by his superhuman senses had got him out of the way. If he had ducked half a heartbeat later, his head would have been an exploding fountain of gore and bone.
- Space Wolf Omnibus Page 269
Before they could finish their initial screams of surprise, Barsabbas swept his forearm and pinned the closest against the wall, crushing his spine. The rest backed away, yelling loud, panicked words. One of them began to fumble with a lasrifle, but he was unfamiliar with it beyond ceremonial purpose. He attempted to fire on Barsabbas with the safety still caught. Like a great fish breaking the surface, Barsabbas tossed a sentry away and flung him down the corridor. Hastily lashed shock mauls bounced off his unyielding hide. The remaining three men were tossed about like bushels of grain. Each surge of Barsabbas’s steel bound limbs threw them from wall to wall, bouncing them, breaking them. The Blood Gorgon was simply playing with them
-Blood Gorgons Page 153
Also this one from Blood Gorgons is important, as the resistance of Astartes shock mauls bouncing off his flesh calls into question if Royal Guard force pikes could even seriously hurt a space marine.
But anyway, point being that GW has oversight over every single book, more-so than any video made for Dawn of War or a movie because it doesn't cost thousands of dollars to do a re-shoot if they don't like something, and supersonic scenes are far easier to do in text than an extremely low budget direct-to-tv movie release that nobody cares about (because it's horribly inaccurate on the most basic things of space marines) and short promotional videos done for Dawn of War.
The toss up is the Emperor's Guard v the Terminator.
I assume equal martial prowess on a man-to-man basis and force-sensitivity by the EG, The EG are "handpicked from the very best of his forces. Out of millions of soldiers, they are unsurpassed." Sounds kind of like a Marine.
If the EG are Force-sensitives, they would win based on numbers and vibrostaff/force pike technology which is basically the same as a power weapon.
So I'd say the terminator is in pretty big trouble...you can only roll so many 2s.
FFS people. Force Pikes and vibro weapons are NOTHING like power weapons. Vibrostaffs can only cut through that which they can sonically excite, and force pikes literally won't do anything to power armor. They're a glorified taser stick.
Which should be disregarded entirely, I think, because it couldn't have happened. Its very premise is contradictory to all established lore.
It's also just as canon as anything else GW produces for 40k. You can make your arguments for throwing it out, but in the end you're just creating your own personal version of 40k that works the way you want it to. Wyzilla's quotes of high-end marine speed are no more valid than the Ultramarines movie demonstrating much slower speeds.
Lamest depiction of space marines in the film. There was literally nothing that made a new audience aware their superhuman nature. They may as well have been ordinary men in armoured suits. Even their armour was next to useless!
Still Peregrine's point stands. GW constantly make contradictory depictions of and statements about space marines. While 40k is a well written and in depth universe, like a lot of long-running, expansive sci-fi settings, the truth is the makers probably just change stuff to suit them as they go along. And sometimes they forget that those changes invalidate earlier things.
Wyzilla wrote:
FFS people. Force Pikes and vibro weapons are NOTHING like power weapons. Vibrostaffs can only cut through that which they can sonically excite, and force pikes literally won't do anything to power armor. They're a glorified taser stick.
While we never see a Force Pike being used, the Electrostaffs used by their Droid predecessors have been used, onscreen, to parry lightsabers - which absolutely are equivalent to power weapons, and have been stated to only be blockable by certain specialist materials or by energy fields.
Other than that, we have literally no idea what Force Pikes are or do, other than that they are silver rods with some kind of device that looks a little bit like a lightsaber on the bottom end, and were employed by a unit specifically trained to stop "Jedi" assassins.
According to Saga Edition, they are "1-meter-long poles topped with power tips. A two-setting power dial located near the bottom of the pike allows the user to set the weapon to "lethal" or "stun". Although primarily a vibro weapon, the force pike also delivers and electrical shock through its tip, dealing both piercing and energy damage."
Of course, the idea of a vibro-weapon designed to stab rather than cut is idiotic at best, but despite the name they appear to basically be Power Rapiers.
How come no-one ever mentions Space Marine Librarians in these discussions?
Librarian > Jedi
Power armour augments a space marine's already superhuman speed and strength. Power armour is heat resistant (terminator armour even more so) and light Sabres are heat based weapons. Force swords have cutting/blocking power presumably about the same as light Sabres. Except the slightest cut from a force weapon instakills (an always unarmoured) Jedi, while an armoured space marine will likely survive a blow from a light sabre.
Librarians have all the abilities of Jedi (divination, biomancy, telekinesis, telepathy) and more (eg: SW, DA and BA powers).
Librarians outnumber Jedi too. If every SM chapter had only ten librarians, there would be 10,000 librarians.
Wyzilla wrote:
FFS people. Force Pikes and vibro weapons are NOTHING like power weapons. Vibrostaffs can only cut through that which they can sonically excite, and force pikes literally won't do anything to power armor. They're a glorified taser stick.
While we never see a Force Pike being used, the Electrostaffs used by their Droid predecessors have been used, onscreen, to parry lightsabers - which absolutely are equivalent to power weapons, and have been stated to only be blockable by certain specialist materials or by energy fields.
Other than that, we have literally no idea what Force Pikes are or do, other than that they are silver rods with some kind of device that looks a little bit like a lightsaber on the bottom end, and were employed by a unit specifically trained to stop "Jedi" assassins.
According to Saga Edition, they are "1-meter-long poles topped with power tips. A two-setting power dial located near the bottom of the pike allows the user to set the weapon to "lethal" or "stun". Although primarily a vibro weapon, the force pike also delivers and electrical shock through its tip, dealing both piercing and energy damage."
Of course, the idea of a vibro-weapon designed to stab rather than cut is idiotic at best, but despite the name they appear to basically be Power Rapiers.
While a Force pike, if its been made with a cortosis weave, can parry a lightsaber, it does not have the same cutting properties and is really not much better at cutting than a regular sword. Given the chronic lack of body armor in the star wars universe that is effective against melee weapons it doesn't matter much in their universe of course.
It doesn't matter if Blasters are even capable of megajoule level shots, because we know two things-
1) Everybody in Star Wars is too damn stupid to use those firepower settings against anything that isn't a wall, much like phasers in Star Trek. It doesn't matter how powerful the weapon is if the blockhead using it doesn't even remember how to properly use it in the first place without breaking out of character.
2) Those megajoule level shots are questionable in the first place considering the unarmored humans standing near those shots do not suddenly ignite/melt. Not to mention that blasters actually have kick, so firing off megajoule shots should definitely have a very visible effect on their shoulders.
Two things:
1) It's been pointed out the effect a megajoule shot would have on a human torso is not PG, thus, it was not used. Messy results of blaster shots are described in books.
2) No. You can stand next to a considerable local heat source and not spontaneously ignite. People using plasma cutters don't spontaneously ignite. The "recoil" is just a stunt effect so the FX crew knows to insert the "blaster shot" at a particular point. The megajoule of energy is contained thermal energy, not imparted kinetic energy.
The toss up is the Emperor's Guard v the Terminator.
I assume equal martial prowess on a man-to-man basis and force-sensitivity by the EG, The EG are "handpicked from the very best of his forces. Out of millions of soldiers, they are unsurpassed." Sounds kind of like a Marine.
If the EG are Force-sensitives, they would win based on numbers and vibrostaff/force pike technology which is basically the same as a power weapon.
So I'd say the terminator is in pretty big trouble...you can only roll so many 2s.
I agree, 1-2 Emperors Guard would get crushed by a single Terminator.
I' gonna call in the Fremen and Leto II to crush both genres....
The toss up is the Emperor's Guard v the Terminator.
I assume equal martial prowess on a man-to-man basis and force-sensitivity by the EG, The EG are "handpicked from the very best of his forces. Out of millions of soldiers, they are unsurpassed." Sounds kind of like a Marine.
If the EG are Force-sensitives, they would win based on numbers and vibrostaff/force pike technology which is basically the same as a power weapon.
So I'd say the terminator is in pretty big trouble...you can only roll so many 2s.
FFS people. Force Pikes and vibro weapons are NOTHING like power weapons. Vibrostaffs can only cut through that which they can sonically excite, and force pikes literally won't do anything to power armor. They're a glorified taser stick.
Vibro weapon...mono-molecular blade with a energy source that allows a blade weapon to vibrate sonically slicing through armor with ease... sounds like a power weapon to me.
Imperial ships are plagued with technology that they forgot how to use, and need chain gangs of 100's of slaves just to reload 1 missile silos or 1 broadside weapon.
Wyzilla wrote: FFS people. Force Pikes and vibro weapons are NOTHING like power weapons. Vibrostaffs can only cut through that which they can sonically excite, and force pikes literally won't do anything to power armor. They're a glorified taser stick.
While we never see a Force Pike being used, the Electrostaffs used by their Droid predecessors have been used, onscreen, to parry lightsabers - which absolutely are equivalent to power weapons, and have been stated to only be blockable by certain specialist materials or by energy fields.
Which does not mean they're lethal at all. IG-100 Electrostaffs are not inherently lethal, they're also just stun wepaons and can parry lightsabers due to being made out of phrik. Although stuff blocking lightsabers in Star Wars was nothing new, not even in the movies. In The Empire Strikes Back, Luke's lightsaber bounces off a guard-rail during the duel, and Vader's armor also tanks a strike to the shoulder that would have cleaved him from shoulder to pubis. In Legends this gets even worse as lightsaber resistant materials just pop out of the woodwork everywhere.
Other than that, we have literally no idea what Force Pikes are or do, other than that they are silver rods with some kind of device that looks a little bit like a lightsaber on the bottom end, and were employed by a unit specifically trained to stop "Jedi" assassins.
Yes, it is confusing as the only information on them is from Legends... but I actually don't remember if the comic on the Emperor's Royal Guard actually featured them using force pikes at all. Rather they seem to primarily be running around with vibrostaves.
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Rune Stonegrinder wrote: Imperial ships are plagued with technology that they forgot how to use, and need chain gangs of 100's of slaves just to reload 1 missile silos or 1 broadside weapon.
Doesn't matter when Star Wars ships are neither capable of scratching the shields and that those reloads by the crew actually only take a couple minutes. Meanwhile lance batteries can also fire freely.
The toss up is the Emperor's Guard v the Terminator.
I assume equal martial prowess on a man-to-man basis and force-sensitivity by the EG, The EG are "handpicked from the very best of his forces. Out of millions of soldiers, they are unsurpassed." Sounds kind of like a Marine.
If the EG are Force-sensitives, they would win based on numbers and vibrostaff/force pike technology which is basically the same as a power weapon.
So I'd say the terminator is in pretty big trouble...you can only roll so many 2s.
I agree, 1-2 Emperors Guard would get crushed by a single Terminator.
I' gonna call in the Fremen and Leto II to crush both genres....
The toss up is the Emperor's Guard v the Terminator.
I assume equal martial prowess on a man-to-man basis and force-sensitivity by the EG, The EG are "handpicked from the very best of his forces. Out of millions of soldiers, they are unsurpassed." Sounds kind of like a Marine.
If the EG are Force-sensitives, they would win based on numbers and vibrostaff/force pike technology which is basically the same as a power weapon.
So I'd say the terminator is in pretty big trouble...you can only roll so many 2s.
FFS people. Force Pikes and vibro weapons are NOTHING like power weapons. Vibrostaffs can only cut through that which they can sonically excite, and force pikes literally won't do anything to power armor. They're a glorified taser stick.
Vibro weapon...mono-molecular blade with a energy source that allows a blade weapon to vibrate sonically slicing through armor with ease... sounds like a power weapon to me.
Vibro Weapons are nothing like power weapons. Power weapons have an energy field that actively destroys the molecular bonds of all materials it comes in contact with- it has the same cutting power as a lightsaber, only superior in that it has an actual blade with weight behind it (using a weightless blade against a weighted one will quickly lead to you eating your weightless blade in a parry).
It doesn't matter if Blasters are even capable of megajoule level shots, because we know two things-
1) Everybody in Star Wars is too damn stupid to use those firepower settings against anything that isn't a wall, much like phasers in Star Trek. It doesn't matter how powerful the weapon is if the blockhead using it doesn't even remember how to properly use it in the first place without breaking out of character.
2) Those megajoule level shots are questionable in the first place considering the unarmored humans standing near those shots do not suddenly ignite/melt. Not to mention that blasters actually have kick, so firing off megajoule shots should definitely have a very visible effect on their shoulders.
Two things:
1) It's been pointed out the effect a megajoule shot would have on a human torso is not PG, thus, it was not used. Messy results of blaster shots are described in books.
"Messy results in the books" do not come anywhere close to being shot by megajoulse of energy. Messy results can happen merely from kilojoules, or are you unfamiliar with just what mere 7.62x39mm does to a human body? I'd post pictures, but then I'd get banned because of the excessive gore. Messily killing people does not mean we should ever jump to something as absurd as megajoule blasters (which never were valid mind you, because even prior to the Disney retcon, Movie Canon was the highest and superior to everything else).
2) No. You can stand next to a considerable local heat source and not spontaneously ignite. People using plasma cutters don't spontaneously ignite. The "recoil" is just a stunt effect so the FX crew knows to insert the "blaster shot" at a particular point. The megajoule of energy is contained thermal energy, not imparted kinetic energy.
People using plasma cutters are also not unleashing more energy than a Abrams tank right by their face. And blasters carry both kinetic and thermal energy, they are not pure energy weapons as they have visible kick.
Rune Stonegrinder wrote:Imperial ships are plagued with technology that they forgot how to use, and need chain gangs of 100's of slaves just to reload 1 missile silos or 1 broadside weapon.
To be fair, that information comes from Battlefleet Gothic, which was published when the GW writers were in full grimderp mode. Nothing in the official books explicitly contradicts it as far as I'm aware, but it isn't thematically in line with the fluff as we know it today. Regardless, IoM ships in warfare don't seem to be the worse for wear in space battles despite this hurdle if it exists.
There's a lot of off-the- bat statements about power weapons being equivalent to lightsabres. Though I'm not invested in trying to convince anyone of the superiority of either universe, I'd just like to point out that from any depictions I've seen or read, a lighsabre is far deadlier than a power weapon.
Edit: And from similar observations I would'n't say vibro weapons are at the same level of effectiveness as power weapons either.
thegreatchimp wrote: There's a lot of off-the- bat statements about power weapons being equivalent to lightsabres. Though I'm not invested in trying to convince anyone of the superiority of either universe, I'd just like to point out that from any depictions I've seen or read, a lighsabre is far deadlier than a power weapon.
Edit: And from similar observations I would'n't say vibro weapons are at the same level of effectiveness as power weapons either.
How so? Both are some sort of energy field and/or plasma shaped into blade form and used to cut things, the difference is that 40k power weapons have a physical blade inside. And there are examples of "energy-only" power weapons, such as the one Inquisitor Eisenhorn carried, though these excruciatingly rare archaeotech.
Given that all Star Wars space battles occur within visual range of each other we thus know that Turbolasers have terrible ranges and/or Star Wars ships are incapable of targeting anything farther than a few hundred kilometers from themselves. Meanwhile, 40k ships engage each other at distances of hundreds of thousands of kilometers.
Also, the slowest Imperial Navy ship has a sublight speed of roughly 240,000 kilometers per hour. Which makes them way way way faster than any Star Wars ship.
Grey Templar wrote: Also, the slowest Imperial Navy ship has a sublight speed of roughly 240,000 kilometers per hour. Which makes them way way way faster than any Star Wars ship.
Uh, no. That makes no sense at all and is nothing more than a clueless author who doesn't understand what they're talking about.
Grey Templar wrote: Also, the slowest Imperial Navy ship has a sublight speed of roughly 240,000 kilometers per hour. Which makes them way way way faster than any Star Wars ship.
Uh, no. That makes no sense at all and is nothing more than a clueless author who doesn't understand what they're talking about.
So why is it that you're allowed to disregard obviously ludicrous numerical values while others are not?
Grey Templar wrote: Also, the slowest Imperial Navy ship has a sublight speed of roughly 240,000 kilometers per hour. Which makes them way way way faster than any Star Wars ship.
Uh, no. That makes no sense at all and is nothing more than a clueless author who doesn't understand what they're talking about.
No, thats what was said by GW when BFG was still around. They said the conversions of the speeds and distances in BFG were "to scale", with a turn lasting 5 minutes.
An Earth sized planet in BFG is 5" in diameter(or 12.7 centimeters).
Battleships, the slowest type of vessel outside of a few unique cases, typically move 20 centimeters in a turn.
Earth, quite conveniently, has a diameter of 12,756 kilometers. This means that a centimeter on the tabletop is roughly equal to 1,000 kilometers.
So a ship with a speed of 20 centimeters moves at 20,000 kilometers per 5 minutes. 20,000 x 12 five minute segments in an hour = 240,000 KPH, for a slow battleship.
Grey Templar wrote: Also, the slowest Imperial Navy ship has a sublight speed of roughly 240,000 kilometers per hour. Which makes them way way way faster than any Star Wars ship.
Uh, no. That makes no sense at all and is nothing more than a clueless author who doesn't understand what they're talking about.
No, thats what was said by GW when BFG was still around. They said the conversions of the speeds and distances in BFG were "to scale", with a turn lasting 5 minutes.
An Earth sized planet in BFG is 5" in diameter(or 12.7 centimeters).
Battleships, the slowest type of vessel outside of a few unique cases, typically move 20 centimeters in a turn.
Earth, quite conveniently, has a diameter of 12,756 kilometers. This means that a centimeter on the tabletop is roughly equal to 1,000 kilometers.
So a ship with a speed of 20 centimeters moves at 20,000 kilometers per 5 minutes. 20,000 x 12 five minute segments in an hour = 240,000 KPH, for a slow battleship.
And yet your evidence now directly contradicts your earlier post about weapon ranges for IOM ships. The max range for BFG was 60 cms, so the effective range is only 60,000kms? Hardly the hundreds of thousands posted earlier. I'd also point out that there is at least one book in which ranges are posted at only hundreds of kms.
GW have absolutely no consistency on the matter so it becomes impossible to make these comparisons.
Grey Templar wrote: Also, the slowest Imperial Navy ship has a sublight speed of roughly 240,000 kilometers per hour. Which makes them way way way faster than any Star Wars ship.
Uh, no. That makes no sense at all and is nothing more than a clueless author who doesn't understand what they're talking about.
No, thats what was said by GW when BFG was still around. They said the conversions of the speeds and distances in BFG were "to scale", with a turn lasting 5 minutes.
An Earth sized planet in BFG is 5" in diameter(or 12.7 centimeters).
Battleships, the slowest type of vessel outside of a few unique cases, typically move 20 centimeters in a turn.
Earth, quite conveniently, has a diameter of 12,756 kilometers. This means that a centimeter on the tabletop is roughly equal to 1,000 kilometers.
So a ship with a speed of 20 centimeters moves at 20,000 kilometers per 5 minutes. 20,000 x 12 five minute segments in an hour = 240,000 KPH, for a slow battleship.
And yet your evidence now directly contradicts your earlier post about weapon ranges for IOM ships. The max range for BFG was 60 cms, so the effective range is only 60,000kms? Hardly the hundreds of thousands posted earlier. I'd also point out that there is at least one book in which ranges are posted at only hundreds of kms.
GW have absolutely no consistency on the matter so it becomes impossible to make these comparisons.
Cheers
Andrew
I believe they did state this was only for movement speed. Weapon ranges were not to scale.
And even if that was not the case, tens of thousands of kilometers would still outrange Star Wars by several orders of magnitude, not to mention be way faster to boot.
Grey Templar wrote: No, thats what was said by GW when BFG was still around. They said the conversions of the speeds and distances in BFG were "to scale", with a turn lasting 5 minutes.
An Earth sized planet in BFG is 5" in diameter(or 12.7 centimeters).
Battleships, the slowest type of vessel outside of a few unique cases, typically move 20 centimeters in a turn.
Earth, quite conveniently, has a diameter of 12,756 kilometers. This means that a centimeter on the tabletop is roughly equal to 1,000 kilometers.
So a ship with a speed of 20 centimeters moves at 20,000 kilometers per 5 minutes. 20,000 x 12 five minute segments in an hour = 240,000 KPH, for a slow battleship.
The point is that talking about maximum speed in space is just demonstrating that you have no clue how things move in space. Since the statement of maximum speed makes about as much sense as saying "1+1=purple" it must be discarded.
Also, you probably don't want to be using game mechanics to provide fluff answers or you're stuck with power armor that fails 33% of the time when a normal human punches it with bare fists. And you thought the ewoks were embarrassing...
Grey Templar wrote: No, thats what was said by GW when BFG was still around. They said the conversions of the speeds and distances in BFG were "to scale", with a turn lasting 5 minutes.
An Earth sized planet in BFG is 5" in diameter(or 12.7 centimeters).
Battleships, the slowest type of vessel outside of a few unique cases, typically move 20 centimeters in a turn.
Earth, quite conveniently, has a diameter of 12,756 kilometers. This means that a centimeter on the tabletop is roughly equal to 1,000 kilometers.
So a ship with a speed of 20 centimeters moves at 20,000 kilometers per 5 minutes. 20,000 x 12 five minute segments in an hour = 240,000 KPH, for a slow battleship.
The point is that talking about maximum speed in space is just demonstrating that you have no clue how things move in space. Since the statement of maximum speed makes about as much sense as saying "1+1=purple" it must be discarded.
Also, you probably don't want to be using game mechanics to provide fluff answers or you're stuck with power armor that fails 33% of the time when a normal human punches it with bare fists. And you thought the ewoks were embarrassing...
Except unlike 4ok, BFG was made to reflect the fluff.
Sure, there is no theoretical maximum speed in space. But there is a speed to which you can reliably still perform combat maneuvers, and not kill your crew with the g-forces involved. BFG does allow ships to perform an All ahead full order, which lets them move significantly faster with some penalties.
So 240,000 kilometers per hour is the combat speed of a 40k Battleship. The speed at which is can exert full control over its movement.
And heck, if we are going to be extremely pedantic about things, the sheer fact 40k ships are larger than Star Wars ships means they will be faster due to having larger engines and able to mount more powerful weaponry. In reality, in space combat Bigger will always be better.
I believe they did state this was only for movement speed. Weapon ranges were not to scale.
And even if that was not the case, tens of thousands of kilometers would still outrange Star Wars by several orders of magnitude, not to mention be way faster to boot.
So what your saying is that, according to GW, 1cm =1000kms when moving, but its more than that when firing? Nice to see GW are keeping the consistency there.
Except unlike 4ok, BFG was made to reflect the fluff.
Sure, there is no theoretical maximum speed in space. But there is a speed to which you can reliably still perform combat maneuvers, and not kill your crew with the g-forces involved. BFG does allow ships to perform an All ahead full order, which lets them move significantly faster with some penalties.
So 240,000 kilometers per hour is the combat speed of a 40k Battleship. The speed at which is can exert full control over its movement.
And heck, if we are going to be extremely pedantic about things, the sheer fact 40k ships are larger than Star Wars ships means they will be faster due to having larger engines and able to mount more powerful weaponry. In reality, in space combat Bigger will always be better.
No bigger is most definitely not better. Unfortunately things like inertia and momentum get in the way. And as for a ship attempting to turn when its engines are at the back.......
Grey Templar wrote: But there is a speed to which you can reliably still perform combat maneuvers, and not kill your crew with the g-forces involved.
That also doesn't make any sense.
In reality, in space combat Bigger will always be better.
Only at equivalent tech levels. A Culture warship is smaller than most 40k capital ships, but could annihilate the combined fleets of the entire 40k setting in less time than it took you to read this sentence.
Grey Templar wrote: But there is a speed to which you can reliably still perform combat maneuvers, and not kill your crew with the g-forces involved.
That also doesn't make any sense.
Yes it does. If you are going too fast to change direction fast enough you cannot meaningfully contribute to a battle, or changing direction too quickly would cause your ship to tear itself in half. Alternately, maybe your ship can make a turn, but your crew would be killed by the deceleration/acceleration. So you have to go slower than the ship's maximum capabilities.
Most modern fighters can pull some insane speeds and turns, but their pilots would never survive what the plane could actually do.
Only at equivalent tech levels. A Culture warship is smaller than most 40k capital ships, but could annihilate the combined fleets of the entire 40k setting in less time than it took you to read this sentence.
I suppose. Unfortunately for Star Wars that goes to 40k as well.
Except unlike 4ok, BFG was made to reflect the fluff.
Sure, there is no theoretical maximum speed in space. But there is a speed to which you can reliably still perform combat maneuvers, and not kill your crew with the g-forces involved. BFG does allow ships to perform an All ahead full order, which lets them move significantly faster with some penalties.
So 240,000 kilometers per hour is the combat speed of a 40k Battleship. The speed at which is can exert full control over its movement.
And heck, if we are going to be extremely pedantic about things, the sheer fact 40k ships are larger than Star Wars ships means they will be faster due to having larger engines and able to mount more powerful weaponry. In reality, in space combat Bigger will always be better.
No bigger is most definitely not better. Unfortunately things like inertia and momentum get in the way. And as for a ship attempting to turn when its engines are at the back.......
Cheers
Andrew
Yes it is, because you need large engines to achieve faster speeds.
In reality, "fighters" will never be a thing in space. If you have two ships and one is larger and has a bigger engine, it will be the faster ship.
Grey Templar wrote: Yes it does. If you are going too fast to change direction fast enough you cannot meaningfully contribute to a battle, or changing direction too quickly would cause your ship to tear itself in half. Alternately, maybe your ship can make a turn, but your crew would be killed by the deceleration/acceleration. So you have to go slower than the ship's maximum capabilities.
Sure, there will be some practical limits on how fast you'll want to be moving if you want to have an extended exchange of shots instead of a quick pass followed by a long period of maneuvering to set up the next pass. But it makes no sense to refer to that as a ship's maximum speed, since that implies an actual limit rather than a tactical choice to stay slow.
Most modern fighters can pull some insane speeds and turns, but their pilots would never survive what the plane could actually do.
Aircraft maneuvering and starship maneuvering have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Don't use this analogy.
I suppose. Unfortunately for Star Wars that goes to 40k as well.
{citation needed}
Film evidence shows that Star Wars ships are capable of at least roughly comparable firepower (and, implicitly, defense) along with vastly superior speed (both tactical and strategic). Maximum range is somewhat more ambiguous, but unlikely to be relevant given the decisive speed advantage of Star Wars ships. The two universes are certainly not in the same situation as the Culture vs. 40k.
If you have two ships and one is larger and has a bigger engine, it will be the faster ship.
Wrong again. Maximum speed in space is nonsense, and acceleration depends on engine size relative to total mass, not engine size alone.
Except I have already demonstrated that 40k ships have a speed advantage where it matters, in battle. Star Wars only has a nominal FTL advantage, but only if they are traveling to premapped Hyperspace coordinates, and there are literally areas where hyperspace doesn't exist and they cannot travel to. Thats why one portion of the Star Wars galaxy is totally uncharted, hyperspace doesn't go there. You literally cannot travel there. 40k ships can travel pretty much anywhere.
Hyperspace is sort of like traveling on a railroad. You can only go where there are rails. 40k is like traveling by horseback, its slower than a train but you are far less limited in where you can travel to.
Aircraft maneuvering and starship maneuvering have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Don't use this analogy.
G-forces still apply, and that is what the issue here is.
Wrong again. Maximum speed in space is nonsense, and acceleration depends on engine size relative to total mass, not engine size alone.
Fuel matters as well. You could have 90% of your mass be engine but you won't carry enough fuel to make it matter. Again, a larger ship can have a larger engine and more fuel. Not to mention you just have more space to put weaponry.
Given that Star Wars weaponry is, by its canon demonstrations of power, often weaker than many modern day weapons it is hugely outclassed by 40k. Blasters aren't any better at killing something than modern firearms, and roughly comparable to lasguns in terms of effectiveness.
It's hardly "nominal". Star Wars ships can cross the galaxy in a matter of hours, days at most. 40k ships take months/years/centuries to do that, if they even arrive at all.
40k ships can travel pretty much anywhere.
As long as you have the Emperor shining a nice bright "you are here" sign for everyone. Take that away and you're stumbling around blindly in the dark, hoping not to get devoured by a literal demon from hell, and wondering why you're committing suicide like this. The reasonable thing to do, to allow the battle to actually happen, is to assume that both sides have their required navigational references available (at least until the Star Wars fleet kills the Emperor).
G-forces still apply, and that is what the issue here is.
They don't apply the same way. G-forces on a turning aircraft and a starship are completely different because they use completely different methods of turning. You can not make this analogy.
Fuel matters as well. You could have 90% of your mass be engine but you won't carry enough fuel to make it matter. Again, a larger ship can have a larger engine and more fuel. Not to mention you just have more space to put weaponry.
This is an engineering question, not an inherent law of physics. And it's really an engineering question for things like weapons. For example, if virtually any hit is a one-hit kill against any ship, no matter how large, then building really big ships is suicidally stupid and you want to build a swarm of smaller ships.
Plus, as I pointed out earlier, this "rule" is completely irrelevant when comparing ships from two different universes with two different levels of technology, strategic roles, etc.
Given that Star Wars weaponry is, by its canon demonstrations of power, often weaker than many modern day weapons it is hugely outclassed by 40k. Blasters aren't any better at killing something than modern firearms, and roughly comparable to lasguns in terms of effectiveness.
Fortunately blasters won't matter very much as the war will be over in a few days and fought entirely in space. The Empire is not going to fight a war of attrition over planets, it's going to use its superior strategic mobility to wipe out key targets and cripple the Imperium's ability to react. Any attempt to land ground troops can be stopped by a fleet of star destroyers jumping in from halfway across the galaxy in the time it takes the landing craft to get from their warp exit to planetary orbit. Meanwhile the Imperium's fleets can only watch helplessly as those star destroyers jump in, unload a salvo of extinction-level firepower onto a key planet, and jump out before the shells of any return fire can reach their targets.
Except those Star Destroyers have zero ability to use Hyperspace in the 40k galaxy because its unmapped and/or Hyperspace doesn't exist there(its not an alternate dimension like the warp and adjacent to all other dimensions)
Meanwhile, because the Warp is an alternate dimension, it exists in Star Wars as well. Thus it can be used to travel there.
Fortunately blasters won't matter very much as the war will be over in a few days and fought entirely in space. The Empire is not going to fight a war of attrition over planets, it's going to use its superior strategic mobility to wipe out key targets and cripple the Imperium's ability to react. Any attempt to land ground troops can be stopped by a fleet of star destroyers jumping in from halfway across the galaxy in the time it takes the landing craft to get from their warp exit to planetary orbit. Meanwhile the Imperium's fleets can only watch helplessly as those star destroyers jump in, unload a salvo of extinction-level firepower onto a key planet, and jump out before the shells of any return fire can reach their targets.
Except those Star Destroyers don't have extinction levels of firepower. They're barely stronger than WW2 battleships. Furthermore, the people of Star Wars are completely pathetic that an army of only a few million people is capable of holding the galaxy in the grip of fear. They'd simply have no stomach for real warfare that 40k would bring to them.
Grey Templar wrote: Except those Star Destroyers have zero ability to use Hyperspace in the 40k galaxy because its unmapped and/or Hyperspace doesn't exist there(its not an alternate dimension like the warp and adjacent to all other dimensions)
Meanwhile, because the Warp is an alternate dimension, it exists in Star Wars as well. Thus it can be used to travel there.
So you're going to assume that the warp exists but hyperspace doesn't? That's pretty blatantly dishonest in rigging the game in favor of 40k. Why even discuss the scenario if you're going to give special favors to one side?
And, again, 40k also has the "mapping" problem because they depend on the Emperor's magic "you are here" sign to navigate. Take that away (as you have to do if you're assuming that the other side has no navigational references in the new territory) and 40k is screwed.
Except those Star Destroyers don't have extinction levels of firepower. They're barely stronger than WW2 battleships.
Canon evidence from the films disagrees with you.
Furthermore, the people of Star Wars are completely pathetic that an army of only a few million people is capable of holding the galaxy in the grip of fear. They'd simply have no stomach for real warfare that 40k would bring to them.
40k won't bring them any real warfare because the "war" will be over before most of the population of the Star Wars galaxy is even aware that one is happening. As I said, strategic mobility wins this easily. And it's quite easy for a small force to hold a galaxy when the small force has a monopoly on civilization-destroying warships and is perfectly willing to use them to end any attempt at rebellion. One guard can hold off a prison full of inmates if the guard has a fortified tower, a machine gun with plenty of ammunition, and orders to shoot anyone who looks like they might be up to something.
So you're going to assume that the warp exists but hyperspace doesn't? That's pretty blatantly dishonest in rigging the game in favor of 40k. Why even discuss the scenario if you're going to give special favors to one side?
That is simply applying the rules of both methods of FTL.
Hyperspace is tangled up in knots, and took thousands and thousands of years, and billions of lives, to map out. and it does not extend beyond the star wars galaxy. Otherwise the people of Star Wars would have expanded to other galaxies by now.
The Warp is an infinite alternate parallel dimension. It is adjacent to every point in reality. Now your point about the Astronomicon is valid, however its not a big deal. The Warp is only difficult to navigate because of Chaos, but in this situation Chaos isn't part of the equation. Because if they are, then Star Wars has to deal with them too, and that is definitely not a fight they win.
Canon evidence from the films disagrees with you.
That is what shows they only have the firepower of WW2 battleships. They simply do not do anything remotely impressive, relative to other Sci-fi.
40k won't bring them any real warfare because the "war" will be over before most of the population of the Star Wars galaxy is even aware that one is happening. As I said, strategic mobility wins this easily. And it's quite easy for a small force to hold a galaxy when the small force has a monopoly on civilization-destroying warships and is perfectly willing to use them to end any attempt at rebellion. One guard can hold off a prison full of inmates if the guard has a fortified tower, a machine gun with plenty of ammunition, and orders to shoot anyone who looks like they might be up to something.
As shown above, Star Wars has no strategic mobility, and even then strategic mobility only means something if you actually have firepower of note, which Star Wars does not have.
Grey Templar wrote: and it does not extend beyond the star wars galaxy. Otherwise the people of Star Wars would have expanded to other galaxies by now.
The warp does not extend beyond the 40k galaxy. Otherwise the people of 40k would have expanded to other galaxies by now.
That is what shows they only have the firepower of WW2 battleships. They simply do not do anything remotely impressive, relative to other Sci-fi.
While being fun to argue, there is really no defining proof that any genre is superior than another. Each relies on its own set of rules and assumptions about space travel, energy weapons and shielding. They also have their own rules about what is possible and what's not when it comes to physics, metallurgy, and Engineering. They truly cant really be compared. Its all fanboy/fangirl preference.
How so? Both are some sort of energy field and/or plasma shaped into blade form and used to cut things, the difference is that 40k power weapons have a physical blade inside. And there are examples of "energy-only" power weapons, such as the one Inquisitor Eisenhorn carried, though these excruciatingly rare archaeotech.
I'm not questioning the similarities in how they work. Just saying that in depictions on screen or on page, lighsabres are more effective. Which is not 100% conclusive of course, but I'll trust observation of something in action, far more than statements and figures which half the time don't add up and it seems the writer just pulled out of their a*s!!) In summary I'd say lightsabres are shown to be better at chopping things up than power swords or axes.
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Rune Stonegrinder wrote: While being fun to argue, there is really no defining proof that any genre is superior than another. Each relies on its own set of rules and assumptions about space travel, energy weapons and shielding. They also have their own rules about what is possible and what's not when it comes to physics, metallurgy, and Engineering. They truly cant really be compared. Its all fanboy/fangirl preference.
Baha! Sorry [composes self]. How in the name of Xenu do you come to that conclusion?!
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Grey Templar wrote: Given that all Star Wars space battles occur within visual range of each other we thus know that Turbolasers have terrible ranges and/or Star Wars ships are incapable of targeting anything farther than a few hundred kilometers from themselves.
That's artistic licence and it's used In 99% of sci-fi space battles ships. The ships need to be shown within visual range of eachother, becasue if they were to be shown at their "proper" distance, they would either be invisible on the screen (boring), or the camera would have to alternate between shots of each (not ideal either).
"Messy results in the books" do not come anywhere close to being shot by megajoulse of energy. Messy results can happen merely from kilojoules, or are you unfamiliar with just what mere 7.62x39mm does to a human body? I'd post pictures, but then I'd get banned because of the excessive gore. Messily killing people does not mean we should ever jump to something as absurd as megajoule blasters (which never were valid mind you, because even prior to the Disney retcon, Movie Canon was the highest and superior to everything else).
2) No. You can stand next to a considerable local heat source and not spontaneously ignite. People using plasma cutters don't spontaneously ignite. The "recoil" is just a stunt effect so the FX crew knows to insert the "blaster shot" at a particular point. The megajoule of energy is contained thermal energy, not imparted kinetic energy.
People using plasma cutters are also not unleashing more energy than a Abrams tank right by their face. And blasters carry both kinetic and thermal energy, they are not pure energy weapons as they have visible kick.
Okay, I'll take another swing at this, but I know what the result will be. But, I'm stubborn. Maybe I have the relentless special rule.
I made the jump to a megajoule equivalent because of the amount of thermal energy needed to vaporize a hole in a "concrete" wall big enough to put your fist into. I estimated 1 kilogram. I estimated the walls in a star wars hanger or whatnot would be equivalent to concrete. Duracrete, plasteel, whatever it is they describe. In any event, even given estimations, there is a HUGE amount of energy required to vaporize something with a low specific heat.
Apply that energy to something with a high specific heat (such as a human torso), you would have catastophic effect. Yes, there are messy effects from being shot with a kilojoule of kinetic energy. So, one can infer that a megajoule *(of thermal energy in this case) would exceed a torso's ability to contain it. Like a piece of sodium metal allowed to react at the center of a bucket of water. The whole volume doesn't absorb the thermal energy liberated by the reaction; you get a "gas burst" effect.
So....to the blaster. That megajoule packet of energy is electromagnetically contained until it hits the target, at which time containment is violently lost. Regarding our plasma cutter example, it depends on how long you operate one. Yes, the output per second is measured in kilojoules. Say, a 7.62x39 round of energy per second. But, it's still a 45,000 degree jet, right next to your face. If you operate one for an hour (3600 seconds), you HAVE exposed your face to megajoules. Amazingly, nobody ignites, because air is a gakky conductor of heat.
To visit recoil one more time: a blaster (according to star wars) uses a little bit of high energy gas, converted to plasma and accelerated toward the target. Recoil is a function of momentum. Mass times velocity. The SW universe, the velocity of that little gas packet is slow. Slow enough to visually track. Movie analysis gives about 60 meters per second, but let's use 100 since it's a nice round number. Now, our little packet of tibanna gas. Not sure the mass per liter of tibanna gas, but tibanna can't be too massive, because the little 100 shot cartridge going in our blaster can't weigh that much. Half a pound sound reasonable? Thats 500 grams. So, each shot is 5 grams of gas, accelerated to a velocity of 100 mps. 5 grams is 75 grains. That's 2 each 22 rimfire bullets. 22 pistol recoil? Well, not quite. The blaster is one third the velocity. So, a blaster would have 2/3 the recoil (twice the mass, one third the velocity) of a 22 rimfire.
Anyways, that's what happens when we apply math to Star Wars. Next I can do 40K bolter math.
Considering both Universes have some kind of artificial gravity on their ships, we can also assume some kind of inertial dampers like they have on Star Trek. So the passengers would not be crushed by the fast changes in direction on their ships.
thegreatchimp wrote: That's artistic licence and it's used In 99% of sci-fi space battles ships. The ships need to be shown within visual range of eachother, becasue if they were to be shown at their "proper" distance, they would either be invisible on the screen (boring), or the camera would have to alternate between shots of each (not ideal either).
Except in the case of Star Wars its not artistic license.
2 Star Destroyers collide trying to chase the Millennium Falcon.
Lando orders the Alliance fleet to engage the opposing Star Destroyers at point blank range. We see a Star Destroyer and a Mon Cal Cruiser duking it out well within 100 meters of each other shortly afterwards.
Just as above, we see Federation and Republic cruisers in battle above Coruscant at similar ranges.
During the Battle of Endor, an A-wing crashes through the observation deck of a super star destroyer. Which then proceeds to crash into the Death Star mere seconds later. So not only are they at extremely close ranges to each other, apparently the bridges of Star Wars ships are extremely weak and can be broken into by a lightweight fighter, and in vulnerable positions on the ship's exterior instead of deep inside the vessel.
That is what shows they only have the firepower of WW2 battleships. They simply do not do anything remotely impressive, relative to other Sci-fi.
Canon evidence from the films, combined with math, a single SD turbolaser battery has the energy to vaporize the mass of steel (50,000 tons) in a WW2 battleship in a couple of shots.
You can come up with silly stuff which points to design and engineering flaws, but on the other end, it takes a lot of energy to vaporize a 30 meter asteroid. When pointing out capital ships broadsiding each other with main batteries with that much energy, it demonstrates the effeciency of deflectors at dissipating the energy back into space (and how fast a ship would be destroyed after its shielding fell).
Given that Deathmarks emerge from this "Hyperspace" on a planets surface, while Star Wars Hyperspace is disrupted by gravity wells, I think its very safe to say they are not the same. You cannot enter Hyperspace in Star Wars too close to a large gravity source.
Because of your relative mass in a starship. The mass of a Deathmark Assassin is comparatively insignificant. As we saw in the prequel trilogy, you can drop out of hyperspace in near-orbit, provided the vessel is small enough.
Psienesis wrote: Because of your relative mass in a starship. The mass of a Deathmark Assassin is comparatively insignificant. As we saw in the prequel trilogy, you can drop out of hyperspace in near-orbit, provided the vessel is small enough.
Its not the mass of the ship that is the issue, its the mass of the object you are dropping out near. You certainly could never drop out on the planets surface, even with a human sized object.
Again, you need to prove they are the same thing and not merely two things having an identical name.
Psienesis wrote: Because of your relative mass in a starship. The mass of a Deathmark Assassin is comparatively insignificant. As we saw in the prequel trilogy, you can drop out of hyperspace in near-orbit, provided the vessel is small enough.
Its not the mass of the ship that is the issue, its the mass of the object you are dropping out near. You certainly could never drop out on the planets surface, even with a human sized object.
Again, you need to prove they are the same thing and not merely two things having an identical name.
Anakin and Obi-Wan drop out of hyperspace above a planet several times in Eps 2 and 3. The mass-shadow of the planets in question are obviously not so dangerous as to prevent close-range drops. We also see, in several places in SW, ships drop out of hyperspace within 25km of the surface of various planets. The drives, by default, have safety settings to prevent this, but these can be overridden by pilots (which is how Han Solo makes the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs, he's overriding the safety settings of his hyperdrive to make jumps near black holes, which have significantly higher gravity-shadows than any planet.).
Necron Hyperspace acts more like a folded reality than a halfway dimension.
Happyjew wrote: First, the two Imp Stars did not collide. They almost did, but there was no collision.
Second, in their defence, Han did pull off some maneuvers.
Granted, those were some sweet maneuvers, better than his “I know a few maneuvers” veering slightly to the left in the first movie.
Whether they collided or just got rocked by the jolt from avoiding the collision, why does the Imperial Navy have their ships so close to each other? They should have some kind of standard distance they maintain at all times. Rookie stuff isn't it?
Happyjew wrote: First, the two Imp Stars did not collide. They almost did, but there was no collision.
Second, in their defence, Han did pull off some maneuvers.
Granted, those were some sweet maneuvers, better than his “I know a few maneuvers” veering slightly to the left in the first movie.
Whether they collided or just got rocked by the jolt from avoiding the collision, why does the Imperial Navy have their ships so close to each other? They should have some kind of standard distance they maintain at all times. Rookie stuff isn't it?
Not necessarily, by maneuvering that close to each other, you can get overlapping fields of fire, which would help when you are trying to hit a much smaller, much faster, much more maneuverable ship.
Happyjew wrote: First, the two Imp Stars did not collide. They almost did, but there was no collision.
Second, in their defence, Han did pull off some maneuvers.
Granted, those were some sweet maneuvers, better than his “I know a few maneuvers” veering slightly to the left in the first movie.
Whether they collided or just got rocked by the jolt from avoiding the collision, why does the Imperial Navy have their ships so close to each other? They should have some kind of standard distance they maintain at all times. Rookie stuff isn't it?
Not necessarily, by maneuvering that close to each other, you can get overlapping fields of fire, which would help when you are trying to hit a much smaller, much faster, much more maneuverable ship.
I think it makes it easier for the smaller ship to weave between them and make them risk shooting or colliding with each other. They could still have a crossfire at a safer distance.
Don't a lot of the 40k canon space battle take place at stupidly short range (I recall the World Eaters having space ship grapples or something ridiculous) ?
"Messy results in the books" do not come anywhere close to being shot by megajoulse of energy. Messy results can happen merely from kilojoules, or are you unfamiliar with just what mere 7.62x39mm does to a human body? I'd post pictures, but then I'd get banned because of the excessive gore. Messily killing people does not mean we should ever jump to something as absurd as megajoule blasters (which never were valid mind you, because even prior to the Disney retcon, Movie Canon was the highest and superior to everything else).
2) No. You can stand next to a considerable local heat source and not spontaneously ignite. People using plasma cutters don't spontaneously ignite. The "recoil" is just a stunt effect so the FX crew knows to insert the "blaster shot" at a particular point. The megajoule of energy is contained thermal energy, not imparted kinetic energy.
People using plasma cutters are also not unleashing more energy than a Abrams tank right by their face. And blasters carry both kinetic and thermal energy, they are not pure energy weapons as they have visible kick.
Okay, I'll take another swing at this, but I know what the result will be. But, I'm stubborn. Maybe I have the relentless special rule.
I made the jump to a megajoule equivalent because of the amount of thermal energy needed to vaporize a hole in a "concrete" wall big enough to put your fist into. I estimated 1 kilogram. I estimated the walls in a star wars hanger or whatnot would be equivalent to concrete. Duracrete, plasteel, whatever it is they describe. In any event, even given estimations, there is a HUGE amount of energy required to vaporize something with a low specific heat.
Apply that energy to something with a high specific heat (such as a human torso), you would have catastophic effect. Yes, there are messy effects from being shot with a kilojoule of kinetic energy. So, one can infer that a megajoule *(of thermal energy in this case) would exceed a torso's ability to contain it. Like a piece of sodium metal allowed to react at the center of a bucket of water. The whole volume doesn't absorb the thermal energy liberated by the reaction; you get a "gas burst" effect.
So....to the blaster. That megajoule packet of energy is electromagnetically contained until it hits the target, at which time containment is violently lost. Regarding our plasma cutter example, it depends on how long you operate one. Yes, the output per second is measured in kilojoules. Say, a 7.62x39 round of energy per second. But, it's still a 45,000 degree jet, right next to your face. If you operate one for an hour (3600 seconds), you HAVE exposed your face to megajoules. Amazingly, nobody ignites, because air is a gakky conductor of heat.
To visit recoil one more time: a blaster (according to star wars) uses a little bit of high energy gas, converted to plasma and accelerated toward the target. Recoil is a function of momentum. Mass times velocity. The SW universe, the velocity of that little gas packet is slow. Slow enough to visually track. Movie analysis gives about 60 meters per second, but let's use 100 since it's a nice round number. Now, our little packet of tibanna gas. Not sure the mass per liter of tibanna gas, but tibanna can't be too massive, because the little 100 shot cartridge going in our blaster can't weigh that much. Half a pound sound reasonable? Thats 500 grams. So, each shot is 5 grams of gas, accelerated to a velocity of 100 mps. 5 grams is 75 grains. That's 2 each 22 rimfire bullets. 22 pistol recoil? Well, not quite. The blaster is one third the velocity. So, a blaster would have 2/3 the recoil (twice the mass, one third the velocity) of a 22 rimfire.
Anyways, that's what happens when we apply math to Star Wars. Next I can do 40K bolter math.
And where the hell are you getting "vaporization" from? Nothing is vaporized in the shootout in Docking Bay 94- we see chunks of the sandy stone flying out from the strikes of Han's blaster. There's absolutely no vaporization going on here.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furyou Miko wrote: Necron Hyperspace acts more like a folded reality than a halfway dimension.
Also it's unusable unless you like getting eaten by Daemons. The Necrons have largely abandoned it because its containment was breached.
Except in the case of Star Wars its not artistic license.
2 Star Destroyers collide trying to chase the Millennium Falcon.
Lando orders the Alliance fleet to engage the opposing Star Destroyers at point blank range. We see a Star Destroyer and a Mon Cal Cruiser duking it out well within 100 meters of each other shortly afterwards.
Just as above, we see Federation and Republic cruisers in battle above Coruscant at similar ranges
Templar, everything you've listed emphasises my point. There would have been zero tension from an audience If the two destroyers were shown to be within a mile of eachothers flight paths at 10,000k out. Likewise as I said, if said ships were duking it out at 10,000k that makes for camera action that is either dull or jarring. The engagement distances in the novels and reference books are stated to be far greater than what is shown on screen. Star Wars is no different to other sci-fi space battles with regard to condensing distances in visual depictions.
As for A wing taking out the Executor's bridge, that came up earlier and yeah it's pretty lame, and contradictory to the level of protection such a ship is shown to have against enemy capital ship weaponry. But discrepencies like this are commonplace in sci-fi: I'm reminded of something in the 2004 remake of Battlestar Galactica, wherein the ships hull took multiple hits from nuclear missiles without breeching, yet suffers explosive decompression from. yes, a HAND GRENADE going off in the interior!
Grey Templar wrote: You cannot enter Hyperspace in Star Wars too close to a large gravity source.
{citation needed}
When answering this question please provide a movie source, not an EU source, since you've decided to reject the EU numbers for firepower as "not canon".
Also it's unusable unless you like getting eaten by Daemons. The Necrons have largely abandoned it because its containment was breached.
You what? No, there are no daemons in the Necron hyperspace, and they have not abandoned their use of it, where on earth did you get that idea?
Peregrine wrote:
Grey Templar wrote: You cannot enter Hyperspace in Star Wars too close to a large gravity source.
{citation needed}
When answering this question please provide a movie source, not an EU source, since you've decided to reject the EU numbers for firepower as "not canon".
Battle of Hoth. They needed the Ion Cannon to disable the Star Destroyers because the transports couldn't go to Hyperdrive until they'd escaped the planet's gravity well, which meant getting past the blockade.
Furyou Miko wrote: Battle of Hoth. They needed the Ion Cannon to disable the Star Destroyers because the transports couldn't go to Hyperdrive until they'd escaped the planet's gravity well, which meant getting past the blockade.
Is this ever explicitly stated on-screen? I can't remember anyone saying it.
It's where the whole "ten parsecs" comes into play. He's talking about being able to swing the falcon as close as possible to the massive gravity sources in that sector, making the distance travelled far smaller.
welshhoppo wrote: It's where the whole "ten parsecs" comes into play. He's talking about being able to swing the falcon as close as possible to the massive gravity sources in that sector, making the distance travelled far smaller.
This is also an EU source. So, if you want to use it you can no longer discard the EU firepower numbers.
Grey Templar wrote: You cannot enter Hyperspace in Star Wars too close to a large gravity source.
{citation needed}
When answering this question please provide a movie source, not an EU source, since you've decided to reject the EU numbers for firepower as "not canon".
Much as I agree with you on the whole debate Peregrine, one of the latest episodes of Rebels introduced the first canon appearance of an Interdictor class star destroyer.
welshhoppo wrote: It's where the whole "ten parsecs" comes into play. He's talking about being able to swing the falcon as close as possible to the massive gravity sources in that sector, making the distance travelled far smaller.
This is also an EU source. So, if you want to use it you can no longer discard the EU firepower numbers.
No one as far as I'm aware is disregarding the entirety of the EU. The energy values are disregarded because they conflict with what is seen on-screen, and film canon trumps EU canon when there is a conflict, and only when there is a conflict. And if I recall correctly, you simply discarded a canonical value for a battleship's maximum operational speed on the grounds of it being ludicrous, without even bothering to make a canonical argument. If you're going to be a pedantic ass over what can and cannot be used as evidence, why don't you follow your own standards?
asorel wrote: The energy values are disregarded because they conflict with what is seen on-screen
They don't conflict. In fact, they're pretty well supported by the scene where a star destroyer's light point defense guns are vaporizing asteroids with single shots.
And if I recall correctly, you simply discarded a canonical value for a battleship's maximum operational speed on the grounds of it being ludicrous, without even bothering to make a canonical argument.
What canonical argument is there about this? Talking about maximum speed in space makes about as much sense as "THE BATTALSHIPS SDGFNLSDFKJGSFDLKJGLDFSGJ IS $W)(%)($#)R%))(W$%R". There's nothing to say to that besides "no, it doesn't work that way".
asorel wrote: The energy values are disregarded because they conflict with what is seen on-screen
They don't conflict. In fact, they're pretty well supported by the scene where a star destroyer's light point defense guns are vaporizing asteroids with single shots.
And if I recall correctly, you simply discarded a canonical value for a battleship's maximum operational speed on the grounds of it being ludicrous, without even bothering to make a canonical argument.
What canonical argument is there about this? Talking about maximum speed in space makes about as much sense as "THE BATTALSHIPS SDGFNLSDFKJGSFDLKJGLDFSGJ IS $W)(%)($#)R%))(W$%R". There's nothing to say to that besides "no, it doesn't work that way".
Still ignoring the part about your own hypocrisy, I see. And that one asteroid doesn't account for the other contradictions, such as turbo laser salvos not blinding everyone looking at the battle, or blasters not doing anything more than singing their targets. And I can twist that asteroid scene until it fits my arguments, too. Maybe the asteroid was porous. Maybe it was smaller than it appears on-screen, and camera work led you to believe it was larger.
I specifically said operational velocity. As in the maximum relative speed at which the vessel may still maneuver with precision, or the highest speed it can maintain relative to its targets while still being able to fire with accuracy.
Finally, this all avoids a more essential question: if you're so confident that SW can beat 40k in this pissing contest, why are you fighting so hard for the crutch of these clearly unreasonable values?
Also it's unusable unless you like getting eaten by Daemons. The Necrons have largely abandoned it because its containment was breached.
You what? No, there are no daemons in the Necron hyperspace, and they have not abandoned their use of it, where on earth did you get that idea?
Peregrine wrote:
Grey Templar wrote: You cannot enter Hyperspace in Star Wars too close to a large gravity source.
{citation needed}
When answering this question please provide a movie source, not an EU source, since you've decided to reject the EU numbers for firepower as "not canon".
Battle of Hoth. They needed the Ion Cannon to disable the Star Destroyers because the transports couldn't go to Hyperdrive until they'd escaped the planet's gravity well, which meant getting past the blockade.
Codex Necrons 5th Edition
"Necrons were ever masters of transcendant physics, pocket dimensions and hyper-geometry, and these sciences are put to full effect wherever they can serve useful function. Many Tomb Worlds and strongholds are far more vast within than they might appear from the outside, or are protected by energy labyrinths of impossible size. Some specialized troops, notably Deathmarks, regularly employ pocket dimensions as vantage points from which to hunt their foes, and the more accomplished nemesors can conceal entire armies and fleets in slivers of out-of-phase reality. Yet as confounding as these technologies might be to the other races of the galaxy, there is one enemy whom they are no defense. To the Daemons of the Warp, such technological conjurings are merely another flavour of existence to be corrupted and devoured."
Yes, Hyperspace has been compromised. It is no longer safe from Daemons.
asorel wrote: Still ignoring the part about your own hypocrisy, I see.
There is no hypocrisy because they are two completely different situations.
I am criticizing people for selectively applying the "the EU is no longer canon" argument to include EU sources that make Star Wars look bad but reject the ones with the best numbers.
I am rejecting a canon number because it is incoherent nonsense. It's like claiming "the battleship's guns have a firepower of 9999999 meters per square volt", it doesn't matter if the words are canon or not because the meaning of those words is so obviously not a reasonable thing to say.
And that one asteroid doesn't account for the other contradictions, such as turbo laser salvos not blinding everyone looking at the battle, or blasters not doing anything more than singing their targets.
Ok, sure, failing to blind everyone looking at the battle means the guns don't have that much firepower. Too bad this applies equally well to 40k, bringing their firepower down to the same level.
And I can twist that asteroid scene until it fits my arguments, too. Maybe the asteroid was porous. Maybe it was smaller than it appears on-screen, and camera work led you to believe it was larger.
Well yes, if you're going to twist your interpretation to fit your belief about which side should win you can come up with absurd arguments like "the asteroids could have been hollow balls of foam instead of rocks". But if you attempt to objectively analyze the film evidence without trying to force it to fit a particular conclusion then the numbers you get are much higher than you're claiming.
I specifically said operational velocity. As in the maximum relative speed at which the vessel may still maneuver with precision, or the highest speed it can maintain relative to its targets while still being able to fire with accuracy.
The number was specifically cited as a maximum speed, not typical combat speed.
Finally, this all avoids a more essential question: if you're so confident that SW can beat 40k in this pissing contest, why are you fighting so hard for the crutch of these clearly unreasonable values?
Because the numbers are accurate. The fact that they don't let 40k win like you want it to doesn't make the numbers unreasonable.
And I can twist that asteroid scene until it fits my arguments, too. Maybe the asteroid was porous. Maybe it was smaller than it appears on-screen, and camera work led you to believe it was larger.
Well yes, if you're going to twist your interpretation to fit your belief about which side should win you can come up with absurd arguments like "the asteroids could have been hollow balls of foam instead of rocks". But if you attempt to objectively analyze the film evidence without trying to force it to fit a particular conclusion then the numbers you get are much higher than you're claiming.
Well technically they weren't real asteroids, they were special effects.
Psienesis wrote: Then technically SW wins, because those aren't Stormtroopers, they're just film extras and stuntmen.
But those stuntmen and all the people in the films are on Earth which is part of the Imperium of Man universe. So no one actually lives in the Star Wars Universe to fight for that side, thus they lose by disqualification.
Psienesis wrote: But everyone and everything in 40k is, at most, a foot, maybe 2 feet tall. The vast majority of people being some two, two and a half inches.
You forget the legions of cosplayers. And remember, there are thousands of those 28mm men. And while those stuntmen may have Apocalyptic Blast stomp attacks, they're still only Toughness 3 with a 6+ t-shirt save.
Psienesis wrote: But everyone and everything in 40k is, at most, a foot, maybe 2 feet tall. The vast majority of people being some two, two and a half inches.
Humans on Earth are full size and alive. Earth is part of the Imperium of Man.
Psienesis wrote: But everyone and everything in 40k is, at most, a foot, maybe 2 feet tall. The vast majority of people being some two, two and a half inches.
Humans on Earth are full size and alive. Earth is part of the Imperium of Man.
The Imperium of Man isn't going to exist for four more cycles of the entirety of recorded human history.
The humans that live on Earth that are part of the Imperium of Man own the intellectual property that is the Star Wars Universe. They have god-like powers over that universe in fact. The toughest thing in the Star Wars galaxy can be destroyed by a mere publication by these humans.
Psienesis wrote: But everyone and everything in 40k is, at most, a foot, maybe 2 feet tall. The vast majority of people being some two, two and a half inches.
Humans on Earth are full size and alive. Earth is part of the Imperium of Man.
The Imperium of Man isn't going to exist for four more cycles of the entirety of recorded human history.
The Imperium of Man doesn't exist yet. Star Wars began a long, long time ago. Prior establishment clause dictates that another party cannot lay claim to the properties of a pre-existing entity.
Psienesis wrote: The Imperium of Man doesn't exist yet. Star Wars began a long, long time ago. Prior establishment clause dictates that another party cannot lay claim to the properties of a pre-existing entity.
Interesting twist, from a legal property stand point. However the humans still have control whether or not ownership is legitimate.
Also, the Emperor is the law.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Due to the heresy of this thread, Star Wars will be purged from the records of mankind and will no longer exist as an idea by the time of the 41st millennium. So at that time, Star Wars will be completed destroyed by the 40K Universe.
On the topic of hyperspace, in both the FIrst and Second Battle for Balmorra, the Republic used planetside hyperspace beacons to direct craft to drop out of hyperspace directly above key points of the planet. This was later used in the Second Sith Wars to drop assault teams directly onto planets, entire battalions of troops, support vessels and transports.
This was later used in TCW when Obi-Wan orders the Clone Troopers to follow Anakin to Yavin, they drop out of hyperspace in the atmosphere of the planet.
Psienesis wrote: On the topic of hyperspace, in both the FIrst and Second Battle for Balmorra, the Republic used planetside hyperspace beacons to direct craft to drop out of hyperspace directly above key points of the planet. This was later used in the Second Sith Wars to drop assault teams directly onto planets, entire battalions of troops, support vessels and transports.
This was later used in TCW when Obi-Wan orders the Clone Troopers to follow Anakin to Yavin, they drop out of hyperspace in the atmosphere of the planet.
The gravity well limitation is more for jumping out than jumping in. In all of those scenarios, ships dropped out of hyperspace near a planet, but you make no mention of a departure just as swift.
Gravity wells cause ships to drop out of hyperspace AND be unable to reenter. The recent episode or Rebels, with the Interdictor class Star Destroyer. For those who don't know, an Interdictor is a smaller SD with large gravity well generators. In the show the Interdictor not only pulls the rebels out of hyperspace unexpectedly (the ship is a new class at this point, never before seen) but also prevents escape while functional.
The question becomes how close you can get. In the show we see the ship that is pulled out of hyperspace does not simply drop out- they come out spinning. In the depths of space that's not such a big issue, plenty of room to reorient yourself. Doing so next to a planet or star could easily be disastrous.
That said, if you're expecting the drop out it can probably be far better mitigated. If you have some sort of beacon or guidance system even better. But clearly travelling around in SW style hyperspace with no astrological data is risky, which is probably what Han meant when he talked about ending Luke's trip real fast.
TheCustomLime wrote: The Imperial Guard alone could mop up the Star Wars forces. Did you know the Grand Army of the Republic only had a couple of million fighting men at any one time? Pathetically low numbers.
The Imperium has at least that many soldiers shamming off in the motor pool at any given time.
I am rejecting a canon number because it is incoherent nonsense. It's like claiming "the battleship's guns have a firepower of 9999999 meters per square volt", it doesn't matter if the words are canon or not because the meaning of those words is so obviously not a reasonable thing to say.
My personal problem with SW firepower, from various SD.net discussions, is that the numbers just don't seem to consistently reconcile with on screen effects.
Here's an upcoming Rebels episode preview (spoilers) where we see a TIE fighter get blasted by one of the turbo laser turrets. This is not a point defense weapon, such as those that destroy the asteroid. Like every other ship we see- including the one shot by the DS2- the thing does not vaporize. And a TIE has significantly less mass than an asteroid.
So, bigger gun, smaller mass target, no vaporization.
Which isn't to say I think the IoM would win the space battle- I don't. But I think that asteroid scene is a stand out and a product of special effect limitations of its day.
asorel wrote: Still ignoring the part about your own hypocrisy, I see.
I am rejecting a canon number because it is incoherent nonsense. It's like claiming "the battleship's guns have a firepower of 9999999 meters per square volt", it doesn't matter if the words are canon or not because the meaning of those words is so obviously not a reasonable thing to say.
It doesn't matter how ridiculous it is- your opinion on its ridiculous nature is irrelevant, canon's canon. If author X declares something has X Biiggatons in a novel, it has X amount of biggatons. That's the end of it, because the author has the final say on their material, or at least until enough time has passed that it becomes public property and death of the author takes actual effect, although even then the legitimacy of people's opinions concerning what the author penned are debatable. What's debatable if people's own calculations made entirely separate of the official material turn out nonsensical (like "vaporization" calcs) or if there's a canon policy that renders something invalid- for example under the old canon policy of Star Wars (movies > tv show > comics, books, and videogames) and a book like the ICS AOTC mentions 200 gigatons, which conflicts directly with the visuals of the movies (because there are no gigatons to be seen outside of the Death Star). Although that's an old, ooolllld matter with the retcon basically resetting the clock when it comes to figuring out just how big the booms are in Star Wars to the 1990's and early 00's.
