_ghost_ wrote:
So you see the Space Marine Armour as a default male one

No.

I don't.

Astartes power armor is a very distinct set of power armor, and regardless of what mark you're using it has a very different feel to it than other armors in 40k, regardless of if they're worn by males or females. Including Sororitas power armor, which looks markedly different with or without boob-cup. You keep ranting about how "they're the same if you take the bling off!", except... that's still not true, unless you-- you, specifically-- are saying every armor looks like Astartes armor. I don't need to be looking at the chest of a Sororitas model to tell instantly that they are Adepta Sororitas. Why do you?

 Melissia wrote:

 _ghost_ wrote:
So you see the Space Marine Armour as a default male one

No.

I don't.

Astartes power armor is a very distinct set of power armor, and regardless of what mark you're using it has a very different feel to it than other armors in 40k, regardless of if they're worn by males or females. Including Sororitas power armor, which looks markedly different with or without boob-cup. You keep ranting about how "they're the same if you take hte bling off!", except... that's still not true, unless you-- you, specifically-- are saying every armor looks like astartes armor.

So i guess ur ready now.

Well there are differences. But if you break it down then the differences between a boobfree SoB Armour and a SM armour become prety minor. at a scale comparable to the amount of differences between a Mark I and a Mark II and so on.
Thing dont have to be 100% the same to say " hey thats pretty much this.."

edit: Well. at wich pont of our debate we talked about your personal needs? Or mine ? It seems like you try to use a strawman here.

unfortunatly i have to go off now.

 _ghost_ wrote:
Well there are differences. But if you break it down then the differences between a boobfree SoB Armour and a SM armour become prety minor

If you break it down enough, the differences between Striking Scorpion armor and Astartes armor are "pretty minor" by the definition you're using, but very few people have problems telling the two apart.

Your argument flat out falls apart because, ultimately, all types of armor are, at the core, a sheet of some kind of protective material or energy that covers important parts of the body protecting it from harm; reducing to absurd extremes the details of any two armor types will make them look more and more similar.

 _ghost_ wrote:
So you see the Space Marine Armour as a default male one. ... Based on proportions that are made on a unrealistic scale,.. matching modified humans with abnormal proportions.
Well done.
Eldar are not here to debate. we are talking about human armour.

Kamoulox?

 _ghost_ wrote:
You are right this stuff sets SoB apart from other things of the IoM but the bling bling doesn't make them obviously female.

Well, I am pretty sure Melissia does not see them not being obviously female as a problem.
Do you see this as a problem, Melissia? I know I do not. If they are obviously part of a different organization than marines, one that was inspired by the excess of the Catholic church, I am fine with this.
Similarly, the Astartes armor does not come out as obviously male. I do not see this as a problem. Do you see it as a problem, ghost? And what about you, Melissia?

 _ghost_ wrote:
But if you break it down then the differences between a boobfree SoB Armour and a SM armour become prety minor. at a scale comparable to the amount of differences between a Mark I and a Mark II and so on.

No. The various marks of power armor are all quiet similar. They share the staples of marines power armor. For instance, they all share approximately the same shoulderpad shape. None of them include clothes, or leather gloves. Actually they are so similar that the fluff insist they are compatible with each other…

Indeed, I have also never stated that I don't want the Sororitas armor being "obviously female". Rather, I debated what was necessary for the model to be "obviously female". If they're going to be "obviously female", it doesn't have to be through "give them giant boobs!".

So can we just call this derailed and move on?

To be fair, the question was answered on page one, in numerous ways. The specific topic left by the OP wasn't very ripe for discussion.

 Melissia wrote:
To be fair, the question was answered on page one, in numerous ways. The specific topic left by the OP wasn't very ripe for discussion.

Yeah, and when we have a SoB thread that isn't sufficiently ripe for discussion instead of just letting it die a natural death we can instead derail it with boob plate... because we haven't already discussed that in 50 other SoB threads (and occasionally non-SoB threads) and it's not the exact same handful of posters discussing it like the other 50 threads.

(sarcasm in case it wasn't obvious)

ERJAK wrote:
So can we just call this derailed and move on?

I've already reported it once. Maybe someone else could hit the yellow triangle of friendship and get this thing locked?

I'm not sure if it counts as off-topic, since all Sisters threads become boobplate threads. It's like Dakka gravity, irresistable.

Hybrid, I was not 'triggered' (I believe that is yet another SJW term), I am just getting fed up of every single thing that I like being infiltrated by SJW's and feminazis.

It is a 28mm figure. Let. It. Be.
Leave the boob armour and the corseting, it is a familiar look and a style that should not change.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
To be fair, the question was answered on page one, in numerous ways. The specific topic left by the OP wasn't very ripe for discussion.

Yeah, and when we have a SoB thread that isn't sufficiently ripe for discussion instead of just letting it die a natural death we can instead derail it with boob plate... because we haven't already discussed that in 50 other SoB threads (and occasionally non-SoB threads) and it's not the exact same handful of posters discussing it like the other 50 threads.

(sarcasm in case it wasn't obvious)

It'd be nice if we had enough happening to have fifty threads. But we don't Thus all conversations about sisters tend to gravitate between one thread at a time, plus the sisters tactica thread.

It's obnoxious, but i'm sure the mods have already looked through it and if they don't see a problem then meh. The original topic was addressed, and then we heard how awesome sisters are with the undertone of how it must be a great mystery why nothing has been done with them. Add a little boobplate for seasoning. Just need rumours now of a release that could happen any time and then we'll be done.

TBH this whole "boob plate" discussion (or should it be, boob plate "discussion") may play a role in GW's seeming reluctance to turn out new Sisters models. I mean, can you imagine if GW released some models just to get jumped all over for portraying women in a way that someone, somewhere with an internet connection could find disagreeable? Don't tell me that GW is too niche for that kind of controversy. I remember when Kickstarter pulled Tentacle Bento because of bad press from tumblristas who knew nothing about tabletop gaming generally, nothing Soda Pop specifically, nothing about the genre in question, nor even the first thing about the actual game they were protesting. I don't think any GW decision makers bother to read Dakka but if they did they could find plenty of reasons in this thread alone to leave Sisters just as they are.

I have a hard time imagining GW's bigshots even knowing what Tumblr is.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Hybrid, I was not 'triggered' (I believe that is yet another SJW term), I am just getting fed up of every single thing that I like being infiltrated by SJW's and feminazis.

It is a 28mm figure. Let. It. Be.
Leave the boob armour and the corseting, it is a familiar look and a style that should not change.

I'd like the Sisters line to be released as a Codex that demonstrates how and why they are the Inquisition's first choice in decapitating renegade Astartes Chapters. I'd like the product line to reflect the fact that they are not simply "skinny Space Marines". I'd like the fluff to reflect that there are other Imperial factions capable of being as bad-ass, or moreso, than Space Marines when the situation calls for it.

I am just getting fed up of every single thing that I like being infiltrated by MRAs and meninists.

 Melissia wrote:
I have a hard time imagining GW's bigshots even knowing what Tumblr is.

Agreed but Tumblr is just one (quite specific) element in a wider paradigm that executives are likely to know about and want to avoid.

 Psienesis wrote:
I'd like the Sisters line to be released as a Codex that demonstrates how and why they are the Inquisition's first choice

Full stop. This is where I get off the train. Any take on Sisters that focuses on their connection to the Inquisition is a step in the wrong direction. (Although I get your point about wanting GW to depict SoB as badasses rather than Chaos fodder.) Sisters of Battle are an important faction in their own right first and foremost and at the service of the Inquisition as a secondary matter.

Eh, given how much flak they got over changes like Age of Sigmar or the Eldar release, I'm not sure they'd really care that much, unless it was just to use it as an excuse to do nothing.

To my way of thinking, that they are the Inquisition's "first choice" doesn't specifically position them as specifically at the Inquisition's service (though, technically, everyone in the Imperium is at the Inquisition's service). Rather, the Inquisition sees an issue (Renegade Marines) and needs the right tool for the job... so they call the Sisterhood.

Referencing the in-universe fluff-quotes from an Inquisitor who had Sororitas assistance in purging a Hive:

Inquisitor Scallen, Ordo Hereticus wrote:

Most Revered Prioress Helena,
My commendations go to your Sisters of the Order of the Valorous Heart in their undertakings against the heretical infidels infesting Hive Tumulus on Farglum. The Holy Order's response to my request was most prompt, making planetfall less than a week after my entreaty was directed to them.
The fury of their righteous anger was exemplary, and countless souls were returned to the Emperor through the purifying fire of their weapons and strength of their unyielding faith. Through their actions, the hive was purged of its blasphemous perversions, and the so-called Cult Epicurean was all but eradicated. The last few of its foul 'prophets' and apostates have fled deep within the abyss of the underhive, where my companions and I pursue them still.
The holy fury displayed by the Canoness Brigitta and her sisters was devastating to the unholy cultists. An inspiration to behold! The terror they induced amongst the corrupted hivers caused a wave of devotion to spread through the hive. Praise be to the Emperor! The sacred Order of the Valorous Heart are a credit to the Ecclesiarchy, and indeed to the Imperium as a whole.
-0425085.M41

 Melissia wrote:
flak they got over changes like Age of Sigmar or the Eldar release

Those kind of criticisms don't register in the wider media. Charges of sexism do.

 Psienesis wrote:
To my way of thinking ...

Right I edited my post to clarify that I appreciate your point about wanting GW to acknowledge that SoB are supremely capable as opposed to yet another faction that fails while the SM are on the way.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Hybrid, I was not 'triggered' (I believe that is yet another SJW term)

Yeah, I was gently mocking you.

 master of ordinance wrote:
I am just getting fed up of every single thing that I like being infiltrated by SJW's and feminazis.

Damn, that sound just AWFUL! Were you the guy that wrote this article? I am going to give you a secret internet tip. If you are fed up by SJW and feminazis, stop reading them! Hit the little red button that will close the tab and move on.

 Melissia wrote:
I have a hard time imagining GW's bigshots even knowing what Tumblr is.

You missed the thing about how feminazi control the WORLD! It's the main reason why most state leaders are men.

 Psienesis wrote:
I am just getting fed up of every single thing that I like being infiltrated by MRAs and meninists.

MRA and meninists are not that numerous. Those who are REALLY annoying are the status quo warrior. So self-righteous, and with such a low willingness to have any shadow of critical analysis of anything beside “Things are 100% perfectly fine and awesome as they are now and any change is bad”… They make me irate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Those kind of criticisms don't register in the wider media. Charges of sexism do.

Do you mean this as in “Free advertisement for the company that have no advertisement budget”?

In my defense, I tend to ignore posts that use the word "feminazi" in a non-ironic manner. After all, without exception, they never have anything of value.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Hybrid, I was not 'triggered' (I believe that is yet another SJW term), I am just getting fed up of every single thing that I like being infiltrated by SJW's and feminazis.

It is a 28mm figure. Let. It. Be.
Leave the boob armour and the corseting, it is a familiar look and a style that should not change.

You used the term "feminazis". You lose the argument.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Those kind of criticisms don't register in the wider media. Charges of sexism do.

Do you mean this as in “Free advertisement for the company that have no advertisement budget”?

In the best case, the boost you get from polarizing media attention is short term. But you get saddled with long term negative associations that tend to reach people who have no other reason to know about your company other than to dislike it because of such associations.

Sad thing is I would love it if the Sister's line was re-done. At this point I frankly don't care if they change the aesthetic or not, the line just needs an update in general, if they did I'd actually have a reason to start up a Sisters army, what little of their fluff I've read I've actually liked (the Soul Drinkers omnibus had some)

I don't see the fear of feminist make sense, all people want is GW to take the metal models, make them them plastic, cut them up onto a sprue and sell them. I don't see that leading to protests.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Hybrid, I was not 'triggered' (I believe that is yet another SJW term), I am just getting fed up of every single thing that I like being infiltrated by SJW's and feminazis.

It is a 28mm figure. Let. It. Be.
Leave the boob armour and the corseting, it is a familiar look and a style that should not change.

You used the term "feminazis". You lose the argument.

To be fair though, feminazis are a thing.

The problem comes when people think all feminists are feminazis when they're very different...

EDIT: In case it wasn't clear, I'm not actually calling anyone in this thread a feminazi, I'm just saying they exist in this world and they're a problem as they give feminists a bad image.

I don't think feminized armor does anything wrong; it's simply stylized armor just like the Blood Angel Honour Guard's chest plates but toned down from that. Everything from depictions of mythological valkyries to Xena warrior princess portray styalized female armor in a way similar to SoB. Nothing about 40k is truly realistic; if SoB armor has boob plates it's because the SoB want everyone to know a bunch of women are kicking butt. If that isn't an empowered perspective there just isn't such a thing.

Christ, it's actually disgusting how all these terms like ' feminazis' and 'SJW' are being brought up just because a few women dislike the model design. This name calling needs to stop, it's shameful and you should be ashamed.

The link for those who haven't been involved between the boob plate and bringing SoB back revolves around (as some have realised) that if SoB were to return, they wouldn't be in the form they currently are and would need re-modelling.

I suggested remodelling based on sensible armour from both an aesthetic view (I don't want unrealistic cartoon breasts because I've grown past that point) and from a realistic point (yes this is Sci-Fi, but I still want some realism in it to make it believable).

Manchu hit the nail on the head with their post. This topic is scub and some people will undoubtedly be upset.

The perhaps unsurprising thing is it's actually the boys who want boobs who are getting rude.

 Wulfmar wrote:
Christ, it's actually disgusting how all these terms like ' feminazis' and 'SJW' are being brought up just because a few women dislike the model design. This name calling needs to stop, it's shameful and you should be ashamed.

The link for those who haven't been involved between the boob plate and bringing SoB back revolves around (as some have realised) that if SoB were to return, they wouldn't be in the form they currently are and would need re-modelling.

I suggested remodelling based on sensible armour from both an aesthetic view (I don't want unrealistic cartoon breasts because I've grown past that point) and from a realistic point (yes this is Sci-Fi, but I still want some realism in it to make it believable).

Manchu hit the nail on the head with their post. This topic is scub and some people will undoubtedly be upset.

The perhaps unsurprising thing is it's actually the boys who want boobs who are getting rude.

I can pretty much agree with this, but at this point I would just like them to get updated models period, so I don't have to sell a kidney to (eventually) start Sisters.

I don't think giant boobs are necessary. Subtlety can work. Like I said earlier, simple body proportions will work wonderfully. Some of the more realistic armor that doesn't have boob plates can still be feminine. (Feminine =/= sexualized)
People are dealing in absolutes. "If you like feminine features you're a 12 year old porn addict.)
And it's not "If don't want boob armor your a feminazi!"
I want feminine features to be clear. End of opinion. Don't try to tack on "You just want big boobs!" to anything I say.

I don't want them to look like "skinny Marines" or "Marines with ponytails". I think that sacrifices a lot of the aesthetic of the army and somewhat "genericizes" them. Without the space-gothic look to the armor, it sort of visually relegates them to "girl Marines", rather than "warrior-nuns".

Could the same image be achieved in a different style? Certainly, but the ideas for such that I've seen bandied about don't sit well with me.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I don't see the fear of feminist make sense, all people want is GW to take the metal models, make them them plastic, cut them up onto a sprue and sell them. I don't see that leading to protests.

Sure, I would hope not. And I certainly would be exceedingly glad and grateful to see plastic versions of the current design.

Is this warrior male or female? What gave it away? Big breasts?

Essentially, there are signifiers of gender that don't have to be OTT

You know what would make them actually look feminine? Having hips and a rear end - as opposed to having hips like a boy, giving an over appearance of a blow-up doll.

 Psienesis wrote:
I don't want them to look like "skinny Marines" or "Marines with ponytails". I think that sacrifices a lot of the aesthetic of the army and somewhat "genericizes" them. Without the space-gothic look to the armor, it sort of visually relegates them to "girl Marines", rather than "warrior-nuns".

Could the same image be achieved in a different style? Certainly, but the ideas for such that I've seen bandied about don't sit well with me.

How about instead of boob-cups, it's a single breastplate of the same general proportions, just no inward-sloping cleavage? That'd look like something similar to what I posted earlier, and would match with the rest of their armor's medieval / gothic plate style.

I don't 'think boob-cups are necessary to give the idea of femininity.

 Melissia wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
I don't want them to look like "skinny Marines" or "Marines with ponytails". I think that sacrifices a lot of the aesthetic of the army and somewhat "genericizes" them. Without the space-gothic look to the armor, it sort of visually relegates them to "girl Marines", rather than "warrior-nuns".

Could the same image be achieved in a different style? Certainly, but the ideas for such that I've seen bandied about don't sit well with me.

How about instead of boob-cups, it's a single breastplate of the same general proportions, just no inward-sloping cleavage? That'd look like something similar to what I posted earlier, and would match with the rest of their armor's medieval / gothic plate style.

I don't 'think boob-cups are necessary to give the idea of femininity.

This, so much this.

 Manchu wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I don't see the fear of feminist make sense, all people want is GW to take the metal models, make them them plastic, cut them up onto a sprue and sell them. I don't see that leading to protests.

Sure, I would hope not. And I certainly would be exceedingly glad and grateful to see plastic versions of the current design.

Indeed, I would vastly prefer plastic sisters in the current design (though preferably of hte same utility as modern plastics-- posable and swappable parts and so on), myself. That'd be infinitely better than our current situation. That I think it can be done better certainly doesn't mean I wouldn't accept a lesser, but still fantastic result.

ERJAK wrote:
So can we just call this derailed and move on?

Threads like this exist to prove that Sisters players are the most pissy and bitter, not CSM players!

Why not just keep the models as they are except make them in plastic?

 Manchu wrote:
Why not just keep the models as they are except make them in plastic?

We could have something better. Even if we keep the same style, we could at least have poseable limbs, multiple bitz in the sprue, more conversion option fodder, better quality sculpts, more variety in hairstyle for the helmetless models, etc.

Yes, I am up for all of those improvements, what I meant is, why not just keep the existing design. This:

Because I think we can go better. I'd settle with the current design (a better sculpt of it, especially), but I still think we can do better.

The problem then Melissia is how you define better. Poseable limbs, bits etc are all well and good but what about the existing design 'can go better'?

I put no stock in that kind of argument because what is better for one is worse for another. I don't like Sisters of Battle because of what they could be, if GW would just design miniatures especially for my personal tastes or (even more bizarre) my political ideology, but rather because of what they already are in terms of their background and what they already look like and do in terms of their current design.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Hybrid, I was not 'triggered' (I believe that is yet another SJW term), I am just getting fed up of every single thing that I like being infiltrated by SJW's and feminazis.

It is a 28mm figure. Let. It. Be.
Leave the boob armour and the corseting, it is a familiar look and a style that should not change.

You used the term "feminazis". You lose the argument.

To be fair though, feminazis are a thing.

The problem comes when people think all feminists are feminazis when they're very different...

EDIT: In case it wasn't clear, I'm not actually calling anyone in this thread a feminazi, I'm just saying they exist in this world and they're a problem as they give feminists a bad image.

I think they are so rare as to be a non-sequitur. Also, it's a term coined by Rush, so it's automatic fail.

The boob cups are dumb, as are the heels. They need to go. And the corsets.

The "x is dumb" argument does not work in 40k.

 Manchu wrote:
The "x is dumb" argument does not work in 40k.

It should.

Martel732 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
The "x is dumb" argument does not work in 40k.

It should.

That just gets us back to the "my ideal 40k would be like ..." style of argument. Not every IP is going to work for everyone. I disagree with the attitude of approaching an IP and declaring, "well if you want me to like this then X, Y, and Z have to go!" The proper response is, it's okay if you don't like it. Not everyone has to like it. You personally don't have to like it. It's okay to like some aspects of an IP and not others. It really sucks that Sisters especially get this treatment, where people feel like they are licensed to step in and "fix" the faction as if it is a problem. It's really not a problem.

 jasper76 wrote:
I think the concept of Battle Nuns is cool, but maybe the appeal is too limited to justify a revamp.

Hell, they never even printed their new codex in hardback.

Toughest Girls of the Galaxy proved that wrong with their latest kickstarter... just saying.

 Carnikang wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
I think the concept of Battle Nuns is cool, but maybe the appeal is too limited to justify a revamp.

Hell, they never even printed their new codex in hardback.

Toughest Girls of the Galaxy proved that wrong with their latest kickstarter... just saying.

They got like 1 and a half million only... I wonder how much of that was even profit?

I think you are over estimating that kick starters popularity and money making potential compared to GW and what they likely sell.

Agreed, Swatsakowey. That KS offered a boutique line. Sisters probably need to sell much better than that. And maybe they would. But if GW is trying to raise profitability right now there are more pressing/promising projects (Horus Heresy stuff) than revamping SoB.

 Manchu wrote:
but rather because of what they already are in terms of their background

What makes you think I believe that this is any different than how I want them to look? How I envision them in their ideal form matches VERY well with this. Though as you very well know, we disagree upon what "they already are in terms of their background"

Martel732 wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Hybrid, I was not 'triggered' (I believe that is yet another SJW term), I am just getting fed up of every single thing that I like being infiltrated by SJW's and feminazis.

It is a 28mm figure. Let. It. Be.
Leave the boob armour and the corseting, it is a familiar look and a style that should not change.

You used the term "feminazis". You lose the argument.

To be fair though, feminazis are a thing.

The problem comes when people think all feminists are feminazis when they're very different...

EDIT: In case it wasn't clear, I'm not actually calling anyone in this thread a feminazi, I'm just saying they exist in this world and they're a problem as they give feminists a bad image.

I think they are so rare as to be a non-sequitur. Also, it's a term coined by Rush, so it's automatic fail.

The boob cups are dumb, as are the heels. They need to go. And the corsets.

In number they may be rare, but they are also more vocal/physical (in terms of how loud they yell to get noticed) than feminists.

Generally, a feminist would talk to you to try to get you to understand their points of view. A feminazi would yell at you to try to shut you up without actually changing your opinion. That or punch you and brag about it on social media.
They're rare, but vocal enough that they give true feminists a bad name.

As to the background, I am going by what I have read out of GW, BL, and FFG publications. Not to say there is no room for individual interpretation. Their visual design, by contrast, simply is what it is.

Some of the language being used here is irking me.
link to an interesting article on some of the terms being used on this thread

I strongly recommend people read the whole article. It is long, but it will hopefully help people rethink things.
Don't take this personally and feel indignant after the first few lines of text - consider the implications of what is said in the article as it's actually rather sad.

Okay, please consider the whole "feminazi" tangent officially off-bounds from now on. The term has zero use or relevance to this thread topic. Further posts on the matter will be deleted and warnings/suspensions assigned as necessary.

I think Game of Throne's "Brienne of Tarth" is a good start for how to go about doing a Sisters of Battle line.



Unfortunately, my opinion is that GW won't do it because they are stuck in the mindset that "Girls are icky" to their customers.

 Stormonu wrote:
I think Game of Throne's "Brienne of Tarth" is a good start for how to go about doing a Sisters of Battle line.



Unfortunately, my opinion is that GW won't do it because they are stuck in the mindset that "Girls are icky" to their customers.

Except that armor is impossible to tell apart from smearing yourself in dogshit and self hate. It's SOOOO ugly and SOOOOO boring. So the boobplates are unnecessary and mysoginistic. At least they're interesting.

Incidentally, am I the only one who ever looked at SoB armour and thought it had to be superior to SM armour? It provides the same level of protection but appears to be significantly thinner/lighter.

Yes that conversation, like pretty much everything ITT, has been had a thousand times on Dakka. It goes like this: one camp says that can't possibly be true and it only "appears" true vis-a-vis stats because the rules of 40k are not granular enough to account for the difference. The other camp appeals to fluff sources that say, yes SoB armour is just as good. Welcome to the Hotel California. For the bathroom, turn right at the pic of Brienne of Tarth.

I dissagree with this.
Following this we end up with a possibly cool miniature. but not a Sororita.

That sums it up nicely, ghost. Following that line of thought, one can imagine how annoying such suggestions are to people who actually like Sisters of Battle (as opposed to fan fiction).

Martel732 wrote:
The boob cups are dumb, as are the heels. They need to go. And the corsets.

The only heels are in a Blanche painting. The models also don't have corsets, it's called something else (it's a decorative garment over armor) which at the moment escapes me.

 Melissia wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
I don't want them to look like "skinny Marines" or "Marines with ponytails". I think that sacrifices a lot of the aesthetic of the army and somewhat "genericizes" them. Without the space-gothic look to the armor, it sort of visually relegates them to "girl Marines", rather than "warrior-nuns".

Could the same image be achieved in a different style? Certainly, but the ideas for such that I've seen bandied about don't sit well with me.

How about instead of boob-cups, it's a single breastplate of the same general proportions, just no inward-sloping cleavage? That'd look like something similar to what I posted earlier, and would match with the rest of their armor's medieval / gothic plate style.

I don't 'think boob-cups are necessary to give the idea of femininity.

Well, the Sister you posted earlier in the side-by-side with the Marine is still in the traditional boob-cup armor with the leather corset buckled over her midsection. Yes, the pauldrons are different (hers more useful, too, she can raise her arms above shoulder level), but not so much, I think, that it really stands out or "defines" the set as Sororitas PA. After all, the pauldrons I could see showing up on, say, a Night Lord or one of the Emperor's Children (who also like flange-y, wingy, spikey armor) and seeming a perfect fit. The pauldrons, alone, don't say "Sororitas" to me.

Now, I could go with a design that de-emphasises the boob-cup, and sticks with the corset look or maybe mixes in a tabard to give it that robe/habit vibe. A breastplate designed something along these lines (though obviously ceramite power armor and not cuir bolli):


Or something like this layered on top of more ceramite (I hate the open cleavage look):

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Actually, I stole the latter part of that quote ("It's like..." from someone else's signature. Manchu maybe? Can't remember.

It's from here:

 Manchu wrote:
I'd say it's their defining feature. It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" So instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in that power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch.

Pure. Badass.

Man, hard to believe that has been 3+ years ago now.

Where and whoever the original quote came from, it sounded better than anything I could come up with on my own.

Good writers borrow, great writers steal.

 Psienesis wrote:
Where

The thread I linked.

 Psienesis wrote:
whoever

Me.

Such is my passionate fandom!

Heh, I know you wrote it, I read that, I was referencing Furyo and I's previous exchange on the topic.

I tried to find an image of a chibi sororita looking all determined to show I was joking but no joy. Interwebz really needs more SoB stuff.

Maybe one of these?

 Manchu wrote:
In the best case, the boost you get from polarizing media attention is short term. But you get saddled with long term negative associations that tend to reach people who have no other reason to know about your company other than to dislike it because of such associations.

You'll get to be the hero of Gamergate! They'll buy dozens of armies each to SUPPORT ARTISTIC FREEDOM OF SPEECH!
(Well, actually they would mostly follow GW on Twitter, except GW has no account on Twitter, so…)

 aka_mythos wrote:
if SoB armor has boob plates it's because the SoB want everyone to know a bunch of women are kicking butt. If that isn't an empowered perspective there just isn't such a thing.

Is “empower” a buzzword that only ever applies to women? I want to know, because I think I never saw it applied to men. And what is it supposed to mean? Would Sisters of Battle be less “empowering” if they had no boobplates? And how?

 MWHistorian wrote:
I want feminine features to be clear. End of opinion.

But do you want them to be clear on Sisters of Battle, or on literally every female model ever? And if the second, why do you hate unisex armor so much?

 Stormonu wrote:
I think Game of Throne's "Brienne of Tarth" is a good start for how to go about doing a Sisters of Battle line.

Unfortunately, my opinion is that GW won't do it because they are stuck in the mindset that "Girls are icky" to their customers.

As awesome as Brienne is.... I don't think it'd translate well to 28mm, especially GW's 28mm uber heroic scale.

So, it went from "Why are the SoB neglected ?" to "Meh, boob armour."

A good approach would be to have both ornamented and unornamented (without boob armour) versions of the SoB. Of course, I don't think it would be profitable for GW.

In al honesty (and an attempt to get back on topic) I just want to see the SoB line turned into multi part plastic. The same armour and look that we have now but with better castings and better head sculpts that look less masculine. I would also like to see them get a new codex with better options and a more competitive feel.
I am not going to lie to you here people, I have wanted to play Sisters now for a long time, even as an allied detachment for my IG. I really want too. But the lack of decent models in multipart plastic combined with the fact that the moulds are now ancient and prices that are crazy by even GW's standards (over £50 for ten sisters. Ten!) has kept me away from them for some time now.
I just want my sisters back. I want the crazy bolter gals in their cool semi medieval looking power armour - boob cups, corset bit and all - and I want them to be badass. And in plastic. And at sane prices.

That and those pauldrons would make building these T45 power armoured fallout themed marines a bit easier.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
if SoB armor has boob plates it's because the SoB want everyone to know a bunch of women are kicking butt. If that isn't an empowered perspective there just isn't such a thing.

Is “empower” a buzzword that only ever applies to women? I want to know, because I think I never saw it applied to men. And what is it supposed to mean? Would Sisters of Battle be less “empowering” if they had no boobplates? And how?

It was a pun. Seemingly only people with power armor are empowered in 40k.

Empowerment does not just apply to women; it ultimately has to do with state of personhood and their self agency. The general lack of attribution to men is because modern perception is that society has already empowered us and thus we can't really claim a greater degree of agency.

In the grim dark future few people have agency. In 40k consider the state of the average guardsmen, some are female, the vast majority are drafted or given as tithes to support the Imperium's war machine. SoB however are powered by faith, will power, and belief in what they're doing and that power of their's doesn't really work without agency. Thus relative to the average Imperial citizen they are empowered.

I think "boob plate" is an important aspect of who the SoB are. Contextually within the setting it's important the Ecchlisiarchy lets everyone know SoB are women since it's not suppose to maintain a standing army of men; it could be said its propaganda. Ultimately it plays into the same classic motifs and styles prevelant to the game and setting. GW invented the SoB but aspects of their appearance definitely play into classical depictions of females in armor.

 master of ordinance wrote:
In al honesty (and an attempt to get back on topic) I just want to see the SoB line turned into multi part plastic. The same armour and look that we have now but with better castings and better head sculpts that look less masculine. I would also like to see them get a new codex with better options and a more competitive feel.
I am not going to lie to you here people, I have wanted to play Sisters now for a long time, even as an allied detachment for my IG. I really want too. But the lack of decent models in multipart plastic combined with the fact that the moulds are now ancient and prices that are crazy by even GW's standards (over £50 for ten sisters. Ten!) has kept me away from them for some time now.
I just want my sisters back. I want the crazy bolter gals in their cool semi medieval looking power armour - boob cups, corset bit and all - and I want them to be badass. And in plastic. And at sane prices.

That and those pauldrons would make building these T45 power armoured fallout themed marines a bit easier.

Pretty much this, similar sentiment for me.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
because GW doesn't do market research aka they are a poorly run company. It's their only majority female line, if they marketed that right they would bring in new player

I highly doubt having a whole female army would bring in loads of new gamers to their stores..... there is power armor not bikinis ...

 aka_mythos wrote:
Contextually within the setting it's important the Ecchlisiarchy lets everyone know SoB are women since it's not suppose to maintain a standing army of men

You act like people would know about the decree passive…
Have you read the fluff about Sebastian Thor's trial?

Why would people not know about the Decree Passive? (I mean other than simple ignorance.) It wasn't a secret.

So I've read this whole thread (phew) and I'm almost scared to post anything at this point but hey I'll give it a shot.

So staying OT I have a hard time imagining that it'd be too difficult for GW to reboot the line in plastic. Our rhino and immo is already a plastic kit (and it's fantastic IMO), exorcist only needs a plastic top to go on the already mass-produced rhino chassis. As for the sisters themselves we have the advantage of having mostly one body and loadout determines battlefield role. I imagine a box set much like the tempestus scions would work wonderfully: 5 bodies, one of each special and heavy weapon, 5 un-helmeted heads, 5 helmeted heads, flag for simulacrum imperialis and lastly some bits to convert them into the command squad/celestians. One box covers retribultors, dominions, celestians, BSS, command squad.

At that point you'd need a separate kit for the seraphim, repentia and penitent engines. It's not as small a release as the tempestus scions were but it's roughly on par with the skitarii release. I have no evidence to back it up but I feel that a plastic SoB force would do fine for GW, I'm not saying it'll blow sales outta the water and make them massive profits but I feel it'd be a well received and welcomed addition to their line-up. They won't lose money over it what I'm saying.

On to the design choices. I'm going to tread this minefield and I want to say first that this is my opinion, I'm not trying to change minds or anything I just want to say a couple things based on my observations.

Firstly I see both sides of the armor design argument. I think female soldiers who look like soldiers first are awesome (Brienne of Tarth is one of my favourite characters in any book/show I look forward to seeing her in the new Star wars too) and I think they can be very badass. Those Eisenkern models someone linked to are great models and very tastefully shows off how female soldiers can be modelled. The flip side is that I also love the aesthetic of the current gothis SoB design. They seem equal parts soldier and church adornment and I think that fits their roles quite well. I believe the word "sexualisation" has been thrown around unnecessarily here as it gives too strong a sense of the issue. Pardon the pun but it's making mountains out of molehills. The BSS models aren't suggestively posed or missing convenient armor plates to show off "assets", that is sexualisation. The pointy boob plates are not there to make us lust after our models, I feel this is a poor example of "sexualisation". The current models have one feature (two if you want to get technical) that is exaggerated and could be toned down in a plastic kit. I feel the "boob plates" could stay but be tastefully modelled to maintain the SoB design aesthetic but also not be so prominent and noticeable.

One poster has stated that he doesn't want to have "sexy SoB" but that he wants them to still be recognizable as females on the table top without much difficulty. Ultimately I agree with this and would be happy with a plastic kit that accomplishes this goal while maintaining the core style of their armor.

SoB helmets are my favourite helmet design of the entire 40K line. I'd love to have the option to have more of them on my units.

TLDR: Sisters could be a welcome reboot army and a kit similar to the Scions kit should work for a good deal of their needs.

 aka_mythos wrote:

I think "boob plate" is an important aspect of who the SoB are. Contextually within the setting it's important the Ecchlisiarchy lets everyone know SoB are women since it's not suppose to maintain a standing army of men; it could be said its propaganda. Ultimately it plays into the same classic motifs and styles prevelant to the game and setting. GW invented the SoB but aspects of their appearance definitely play into classical depictions of females in armor.

I think that, beyond simply growling about sexism / SJW's running over my cat, the question of "boobplate" does touch on a few interesting aspects.

First, the 40K universe is exaggerated and impractical by nature. The Repentia never struck me as especially ridiculous, because they came out around the same time as the immortal disciples of the forbidden god of excess, who fight by wailing on their guitars so hard that your head explodes. Exaggeration and stylisation has been applied fairly evenly across the range (lately, to a degree I find offputting), but when that is applied to armour being worn by a woman, the assumption is likely (making no judgement on if the assumption is right) to be inappropriate sexualisation. Which ties into....

Another thing is, the lines between an image or aesthetic being "impressive", "attractive" and "sexualised". It's one of those areas where everyone has slightly different standards, but will tend to insist that their own lines are obvious, common sense, etc. One thing that I think is worth considering is that people will be much quicker to label an image of a woman as "sexualised" if she's seen as being impractically dressed, striking a certain pose, etc, whereas an image of a man needs to go to real extremes to get the same label.

 Manchu wrote:
Why would people not know about the Decree Passive? (I mean other than simple ignorance.) It wasn't a secret.

Consider the situation during the trial of Sebastian Thor, and you'll get a good idea why they did not advertise it to the average citizen. The people that know about the decree are people that could have to enforce it. Inquisitors, high-ranked members of the Administratum, …
But those people do not need boobplate to know Sisters are women. They knew Sisters before the Decree was even thought of. So…


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elemental wrote:
One thing that I think is worth considering is that people will be much quicker to label an image of a woman as "sexualised" if she's seen as being impractically dressed, striking a certain pose, etc, whereas an image of a man needs to go to real extremes to get the same label.

I do not agree. I think women are much more often sexualized, because they are much more often impractically dressed in ways that put a deliberate emphasis on body part is conventionally considered sexually attractive, striking poses that do the same, than men. Especially true if we look at ratio of images doing so rather than sheer number…

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elemental wrote:
One thing that I think is worth considering is that people will be much quicker to label an image of a woman as "sexualised" if she's seen as being impractically dressed, striking a certain pose, etc, whereas an image of a man needs to go to real extremes to get the same label.

I do not agree. I think women are much more often sexualized, because they are much more often impractically dressed in ways that put a deliberate emphasis on body part is conventionally considered sexually attractive, striking poses that do the same, than men. Especially true if we look at ratio of images doing so rather than sheer number…

Your Point and the one Elemental made are different. His is more about quality while yours is linked to quantity. i think bth points are right

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
The people that know about the decree are people that could have to enforce it.

I disagree entirely. The Ecclesiarchy went from enlisting millions of men to enlisting none. Plus, the decree was part of Thor's reform package. It would not have been poorly received and there is no reason for it to be a secret. That said,

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
But those people do not need boobplate to know Sisters are women.

This is quite true. So far as we know, SoB have always looked the way the way they currently look. It's not like Thor was like, here wear this so people aren't confused.

It strikes me as entirely pointless to talk about "sexualization," which is just another buzzword loaded with all kinds of inapplicable baggage and unaccounted for assumptions.

The conversation is really simple: if you don't like the Sisters models, that's fine. It means you don't like Sisters. You like something else, a personal vision of them. This is where for any other army people would just be content to go out and find proxies. But for Sisters, solely because they are women, people get totally confused, acting like the topic has some kind of moral or political significance.

Wyzilla wrote:
That's a feature, not a bug.

Yes, that was my point. The Marines are sexualised.

The problem is that sexualising a guy is pretty difficult, because guys are trained from a young age to stand with their pelvises thrust forwards to show off their manly attributes. It's hard to see sexualisation when sexualisation of the male form is normal, while sexualisation of the female form has always been admonished.

It's part of an ancient double standard that women must never allow themselves to be sexualised, but must always accept being treated as sex objects. Trying to get round this is how you end up with feminists who declare that women should wear long skirts to avoid provoking the male gaze.

Personally, my take on why the Sororitas armour involves corsets and wetlook is that the Fabricator General took one look at Thor's request for a new set of armour for the Sororitas, to replace the inappropriate armour used by the Brides, and told him to make do with the last lot the Mechanicus designed for the Ecclesiarchy in disgust.

There's been legions of books written on this topic of the sexualization of women, but I could name the number of people on Dakka that I suspect might have honestly and deliberately (without it being required as reading material by a college class) read even one or two of them on a single hand

For my part, I propose that it's not noticed as often when men are sexualized, because male is considered to be default, and men are in western society usually supposed to be defined by what they do (or don't do). Thus, men are sexualized to be sure, but because things are assumed to be default to begin with, it's usually quite tame-- and furthermore, it's not usually done for the purpose of titillation, but to emphasize the traits involved in what the man does (especially in a wargame).

Females, meanwhile, are deemed an exception to the male norm. This shouldn't be a controversial point, either-- people in this very thread have expressed the fear that if they don't emphasize and sexualize female miniatures, no one will be able to tell they're female, important to them because otherwise they'll assume the person is male. And what do they suggest to emphasize the feminine characteristics? Giant boobs, fetishwear, and sultry poses-- traits and fashions which titillate and draw attention to how sexually desirable the person or miniature is.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elemental wrote:
One thing that I think is worth considering is that people will be much quicker to label an image of a woman as "sexualised" if she's seen as being impractically dressed, striking a certain pose, etc, whereas an image of a man needs to go to real extremes to get the same label.

I do not agree. I think women are much more often sexualized, because they are much more often impractically dressed in ways that put a deliberate emphasis on body part is conventionally considered sexually attractive, striking poses that do the same, than men. Especially true if we look at ratio of images doing so rather than sheer number…

I feel the issue of sexualisation is far too broad and grey to truly cover in a thread on the internet. It runs far too deep into our cultures and societal norms. I agree with elemental that what one person views as sexualisation may not be perceived as such by another. Neither person is wrong as it's a matter of opinion. Consider what some people find attractive amongst cultures that have more conservative clothing for the women amongst them. You could even look at it chronologically, what was considered sexy in the 1950's is now far too tame for todays standards, bathing suits come to mind for this, every year they get smaller and smaller in order to maintain their sexiness. I also don't think looking at the ratio of male to female sexualized content is fair either as it seems to me (my opinion based on personal observations mind you) that the demand to see sexualised women is greater than the demand to see sexualised men. Simple supply and demand would tell us that we should expect these ratios to exist. It's hard to draw a direct comparison amongst the sexualisation of men and women too since what would be seen as blatant sexualisation varies wildly across the genders. If a man strikes the poses sexualized women make then it's a parody, it's just not sexy.

It's hard to draw lines to say what is and isn't sexualisation because that varies wildly depending on who/when/where you are. All we can do as consumers is make our own decisions on what we like and invest our money into based on our own tastes. Will GW design a plastic SoB kit that appeals to everyone? Absolutely not, to some it'll always be either too sexy, not sexy enough, needs thicker armor, don't like the concept of a pipe organ pretending it's a missile launcher, penitent engines don't make sense why wouldn't you just shoot the unprotected guy in it's centre, ughh SoB haircuts are awful, oooh SoB haircuts are so practical, their faces are too manly, their faces are great they look like mean warrior women. It's all taste and opinions, a war you will never win but can only hope that as a company you fight well enough in to turn a profit. Looking at the wishlisting for the SoB re-design in plastic (or simple conversion to plastic with little to no re-design) it's clear that GW won't please us all, too many varying tastes, but what they can do is still try to make something awesome that appeals to enough people (or is easy enough to convert to what you want) that the army becomes a welcome addition to their stock shelves in stores.

Females are deemed an exception to the male norm depending on the context.

Military context females are an exception to the norm. So it makes sense.

For nurses, we have to break the female norm by stating "male nurse" and so on.

Ultimately it all comes down to context and until women start pulling a big share in military matters it will be seen as a male thing for a long time, especially when talking about combat. So it makes sense to point out and say "hey, this army is different to the norm" and go from there. After all many TV shows, movies and books are based on the premise of "someone out of place doing things you would not normally see" and often these characters need emphasis to differentiate them from the group they are in.

Like in those baby sitter movies where the baby sitter is a super buffed dude, normally a soldier (Arnold Swartznager etc) having to do something like look after children or teach at kindergarten. Males in young child care is not the norm, so their maleness is exaggerated and their jobs are a sharp contrast to the world of child care so often their military past is exaggerated.

It would be the same in any gender reversal, specie reversal, time reversal idea etc.

Of course, the amount of exaggeration is up to you, but in a setting a person is not normally found in their differences are often exaggerated so it's clear that these are not what you assume they are. You may not like the level of exaggeration but it does need to be there.

So lets not cry unfairness, if I was a male nurse I Would understandably be annoyed at how male nurses are portrayed (because they aren't the norm) in media too. But it's all in context.

Ultimately it's just a matter of taste how much exaggeration is needed in these cases.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
So I've read this whole thread (phew) and I'm almost scared to post anything at this point but hey I'll give it a shot.

So staying OT I have a hard time imagining that it'd be too difficult for GW to reboot the line in plastic. Our rhino and immo is already a plastic kit (and it's fantastic IMO), exorcist only needs a plastic top to go on the already mass-produced rhino chassis. As for the sisters themselves we have the advantage of having mostly one body and loadout determines battlefield role. I imagine a box set much like the tempestus scions would work wonderfully: 5 bodies, one of each special and heavy weapon, 5 un-helmeted heads, 5 helmeted heads, flag for simulacrum imperialis and lastly some bits to convert them into the command squad/celestians. One box covers retribultors, dominions, celestians, BSS, command squad.

At that point you'd need a separate kit for the seraphim, repentia and penitent engines. It's not as small a release as the tempestus scions were but it's roughly on par with the skitarii release. I have no evidence to back it up but I feel that a plastic SoB force would do fine for GW, I'm not saying it'll blow sales outta the water and make them massive profits but I feel it'd be a well received and welcomed addition to their line-up. They won't lose money over it what I'm saying.

On to the design choices. I'm going to tread this minefield and I want to say first that this is my opinion, I'm not trying to change minds or anything I just want to say a couple things based on my observations.

Firstly I see both sides of the armor design argument. I think female soldiers who look like soldiers first are awesome (Brienne of Tarth is one of my favourite characters in any book/show I look forward to seeing her in the new Star wars too) and I think they can be very badass. Those Eisenkern models someone linked to are great models and very tastefully shows off how female soldiers can be modelled. The flip side is that I also love the aesthetic of the current gothis SoB design. They seem equal parts soldier and church adornment and I think that fits their roles quite well. I believe the word "sexualisation" has been thrown around unnecessarily here as it gives too strong a sense of the issue. Pardon the pun but it's making mountains out of molehills. The BSS models aren't suggestively posed or missing convenient armor plates to show off "assets", that is sexualisation. The pointy boob plates are not there to make us lust after our models, I feel this is a poor example of "sexualisation". The current models have one feature (two if you want to get technical) that is exaggerated and could be toned down in a plastic kit. I feel the "boob plates" could stay but be tastefully modelled to maintain the SoB design aesthetic but also not be so prominent and noticeable.

One poster has stated that he doesn't want to have "sexy SoB" but that he wants them to still be recognizable as females on the table top without much difficulty. Ultimately I agree with this and would be happy with a plastic kit that accomplishes this goal while maintaining the core style of their armor.

SoB helmets are my favourite helmet design of the entire 40K line. I'd love to have the option to have more of them on my units.

TLDR: Sisters could be a welcome reboot army and a kit similar to the Scions kit should work for a good deal of their needs.

I like this.

I also want to add that they are likely going to need to write them a better set of rules than what they currently have. Right now the army plays similar to the older IG veteran leafblower lists, and historically, they've just been guard in a space marine kit with identical weapons. Although I love the models, it really lacks imagination which is why I would imagine they have never sold well.

If they got primary and special weapons unique to the church, similar to how the AdMech, although being in the imperial fold, use and maintain a weapon list with mechanics completely unique to themselves, it would go a long way in making them feel like their own thing, and not just a lazy meshing of two armies.

I, too, adore the Sororitas helmet. It's probably the best looking helmet design in 40k, really..

Yeah to see new rules come out with the models would be great. I'm more or less ok with them having bolters, I like the holy trinity concept but having some unique weapons would be fun too. I think a unique melta variant, bolter variant (kind of have that in the condemner I suppose) and flamer variant that have special rules would be fun.

I'd also like to see the AoF rule changed. Perhaps instead of a once per game per unti rule maybe run it more like the khorne daemonkin blood tithe system? A set of conditions that increases your faith points and a set of bonuses or abilities you can "purchase" at the beginning of a round using your faith points. I really like the formation in daemonkin that allows you to use blood tithe to get one bonus and get a lower tier bonus for free as well. This would open up some fun options for formation and how they interact with faith generation.

Another idea is instead of the psyker phase we could have something called a "communion" phase or something like that. We can use faith powers in the psyker phase using our own variant rules. Just a thought anyways.

So with a plastic sisters release would you kind folks like to see another digital codex or have GW release a hardcover book? Personally I prefer to have a book. I'm not as worried about it as I am with my ipad and it may sound weird but there's just no replacement for manually flipping through pages with your fingers and using three fingers to bookmark pages as you search up rules and stats.

What was the sororitas helmet called again? Sabbat pattern? It reminds me a lot of the old Sallet helmets of which I am also a fan. I like the hard gorget guard that many sallet helmets had to protect the lower portion of the wearers neck and chin as a Sallet helmet only covered you to your lips. It's an interesting design as it gives you freedom of speech, movement and breathing with just the helmet or you can wear the gorget too for added protection. That design would be fun to model and give extra head options for the SoB models.

 Melissia wrote:

Females, meanwhile, are deemed an exception to the male norm.

Well, that's kinda funny because genetically it's the complete opposite.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elemental wrote:
One thing that I think is worth considering is that people will be much quicker to label an image of a woman as "sexualised" if she's seen as being impractically dressed, striking a certain pose, etc, whereas an image of a man needs to go to real extremes to get the same label.

I do not agree. I think women are much more often sexualized, because they are much more often impractically dressed in ways that put a deliberate emphasis on body part is conventionally considered sexually attractive, striking poses that do the same, than men. Especially true if we look at ratio of images doing so rather than sheer number…

But is it the case that such images of men don't exist, or that they do exist, and I just instinctively reject the "sexualised" label when looking at them, in favour of "impressive"? Again, I run into my feeling that my standards are just common sense, and anyone who disagrees with them is prudish / objectifying. I can readily think of images of men where they're nearly naked and in a showcasing pose, with loving detail drawn to each detail of their body and the way that each leather strap cleaves to their skin....but interestingly, I don't instinctively think "sexualised", like I would with a woman depicted in the same manner. So that says to me that either my standards for a sexualised woman are too low, or my standards for a sexualised male are too high. Possibly linked to the values I've inherited that place taboos on either women or men openly admiring male beauty, for fear of being thought of as promiscuous or homosexual.

 Melissia wrote:
For my part, I propose that it's not noticed as often when men are sexualized, because male is considered to be default, and men are in western society usually supposed to be defined by what they do (or don't do). Thus, men are sexualized to be sure, but because things are assumed to be default to begin with, it's usually quite tame.

Being "manly" is all well and good until you become too manly, as in you like men instead of women. Then it's suddenly no longer fun and games, it's a serious attack on the real true male masculinity of all real men. ;-)

A man's man is more manly than any other man on the planet. That's why they are manly men, with beards that put all other men's beards to shame, and enjoy wrestling with bears and eating twink... ees.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The problem is that sexualising a guy is pretty difficult

http://bikiniarmorbattledamage.tumblr.com/post/134970898893/elf-warrior-by-zeilyan-truly-everything-about
https://youtu.be/lGXT_icWZok?t=38m45s
You welcome.

 Manchu wrote:
I disagree entirely. The Ecclesiarchy went from enlisting millions of men to enlisting none.

Yeah, but I am not sure they cared to explain why to people.

 Manchu wrote:
Plus, the decree was part of Thor's reform package.

Do you mean to say it was imposed on him? Just like he was forced to accept the title despite his will?

 Manchu wrote:
It would not have been poorly received and there is no reason for it to be a secret.

It's not a secret. That does not mean average people know about it. Many people in the Imperium do not even know that interstellar travel is possible… Planetary governor? Sure, their ancestors back then should have heard of it at some point. Anyone belonging to the Ecclesiarchy? Should have heard of it too. Arbites? They know about it. Random Imperial Guard #156465134? She's here to follow order, nothing more. Hive workers? Even more so.

 Melissia wrote:
There's been legions of books written on this topic of the sexualization of women, but I could name the number of people on Dakka that I suspect might have honestly and deliberately (without it being required as reading material by a college class) read even one or two of them on a single hand

Oooooh who ?

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Consider what some people find attractive amongst cultures that have more conservative clothing for the women amongst them. You could even look at it chronologically, what was considered sexy in the 1950's is now far too tame for todays standards, bathing suits come to mind for this, every year they get smaller and smaller in order to maintain their sexiness.

And yet, when watching Faster Pussycat! Kill! Kill!, the sexualization (of basically the whole women cast and of Vegetable (yes, that's the name of one of the male characters)) is pretty goddamn obvious (it's pretty refreshing to see they did it to Vegetable too btw). Similarly, if I see this nose art done in 1944, it's pretty obvious sexualization. Yet, when I watch Kirikou, no amount of naked breast is going to convince anyone but the most bigot that there is any sexualization going on. Or, say, this music video. The amount of flesh that is socially acceptable to show vary, but that's irrelevant to spotting sexualization…

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
I also don't think looking at the ratio of male to female sexualized content is fair either as it seems to me (my opinion based on personal observations mind you) that the demand to see sexualised women is greater than the demand to see sexualised men. Simple supply and demand would tell us that we should expect these ratios to exist.

And do you just stop at this? You do not feel like trying to understand why the demand is different, you leave it as “It's only natural”?

It seems to me that society focuses a lot more on women's appearance than men's appearance. For instance, why is it socially expected for women to put on make-up, but not for men? Is there not many more stories where the female love interest's desirability is basically all contained in her being beautiful and not a total jerk, while the male protagonist has to demonstrate his own desirability by his actions, than the other way around? Or is it just my bias speaking here?
More specifically about sex, when and how is the male body used to advertise sex? The female body is used to advertise sex in tons of place. From daemonettes being the only daemons with a clear gender indicator, to the totally-idiotic assumptions that goddesses are inherently sexually attractive and linked to sex (Yeah, Kali is NOT linked in any way to sex, and that guy is a goddamn idiot for not fact-checking his assumptions when the internet exist. Also neither is Nemesis, but on the other hand Zeus is a goddamn sex machine, and not exactly a monogamous or consensual one at that, but you would not tell from his in-game appearance…).
“Women's magazine” very often have pictures of naked women on them because they have articles inside telling them how they could look like that. “Men's magazine” tend to have pictures of naked women for the guys to ogle at (though, it's true, there are also men's magazine that do the same a women's magazine now, like Men's health).
Would you disagree that our society pushes men to make advances to women rather than the other way around too?
Do you think all this is due to “biological differences” rather than the influence of societal norms we are exposed to all our lives?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The problem is that sexualising a guy is pretty difficult

http://bikiniarmorbattledamage.tumblr.com/post/134970898893/elf-warrior-by-zeilyan-truly-everything-about
https://youtu.be/lGXT_icWZok?t=38m45s
You welcome.

Really, Oxy?

The rest of my sentence reads "because sexualised men are the standard".

Read the rest of my damn post rather than trying to paint me as some kind of apologist, will you?

 Melissia wrote:
I, too, adore the Sororitas helmet.

We all do!

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
So with a plastic sisters release would you kind folks like to see another digital codex or have GW release a hardcover book?

A printed book. 100%. Digital is a pita.

 Elemental wrote:
But is it the case that such images of men don't exist, or that they do exist, and I just instinctively reject the "sexualised" label when looking at them, in favour of "impressive"?

If you are able to reject the level, the sexualization is tame compared to heroic fantasy standards, I guess. If you see an image of a guy with a lot of armor on irrelevant body parts, but strategically placed holes, with pierced nipples, and camera angles that cannot stop to linger on his ass, his pecs, … I think you'll notice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The rest of my sentence reads "because sexualised men are the standard".

Those seems quite a lot more sexualized than the standard…

 Melissia wrote:
I, too, adore the Sororitas helmet. It's probably the best looking helmet design in 40k, really..

Most definitely. The Soritas helmet has that coll medieval look whilst at the same time being science fiction with a bit of win thrown in there. I love it and only wish that the Guard came with it.

Sororitas: join us, we have the best hats!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Those seems quite a lot more sexualized than the standard…

Really? Looks pretty standard to me. I guess we move in different artistic circles.

As for hats... I have this to say*;



*Note that this was pre-firing. I don't have a photo of it post-firing - the extra-pale blue is gloss white, and the pink is actually a very dark red.

Nice but… how are you going to see anything ^^?

 Melissia wrote:
I, too, adore the Sororitas helmet. It's probably the best looking helmet design in 40k, really.

Totally agree. They really struck on something cool by using the sallet.

Those seems quite a lot more sexualized than the standard…

Have you... not seen a men's underwear advertisement lately? An ad for men's deodorant? An ad for a pick-up truck?

These all depict big, brawny dudes doing big, brawny dude things, often in some state of undress (more or less, depending on the specific product), telling the people watching the ad that if you want to be a man, you have to look like this and buy this thing, or that if your man doesn't and isn't, then he isn't a real man. The Old Spice commercials that came out a few years ago were rather blatant about it, but they leavened it with humor... and quite effectively so.

Advertisement has always used sex and sex-appeal to sell products, it's basically the defining feature of the industry, and its sole means and purpose of existing. This is Marketing in its entirety, the end-all and be-all of the art.

I mean, hell, the Rolling Stones had a song about this fifty years ago!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Sororitas: join us, we have the best hats!

Pretty good motto for the Sisters to draw players to the army.

"Join the Sisters of Battle, we have the best hats!"

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Nice but… how are you going to see anything ^^?

It's a decoration, don't be obtuse :p

In true GW fashion, the whole helmet is the same size as my actual head, lol.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Consider what some people find attractive amongst cultures that have more conservative clothing for the women amongst them. You could even look at it chronologically, what was considered sexy in the 1950's is now far too tame for todays standards, bathing suits come to mind for this, every year they get smaller and smaller in order to maintain their sexiness.

And yet, when watching Faster Pussycat! Kill! Kill!, the sexualization (of basically the whole women cast and of Vegetable (yes, that's the name of one of the male characters)) is pretty goddamn obvious (it's pretty refreshing to see they did it to Vegetable too btw). Similarly, if I see this nose art done in 1944, it's pretty obvious sexualization. Yet, when I watch Kirikou, no amount of naked breast is going to convince anyone but the most bigot that there is any sexualization going on. Or, say, this music video. The amount of flesh that is socially acceptable to show vary, but that's irrelevant to spotting sexualization…

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
I also don't think looking at the ratio of male to female sexualized content is fair either as it seems to me (my opinion based on personal observations mind you) that the demand to see sexualised women is greater than the demand to see sexualised men. Simple supply and demand would tell us that we should expect these ratios to exist.

And do you just stop at this? You do not feel like trying to understand why the demand is different, you leave it as “It's only natural”?

It seems to me that society focuses a lot more on women's appearance than men's appearance. For instance, why is it socially expected for women to put on make-up, but not for men? Is there not many more stories where the female love interest's desirability is basically all contained in her being beautiful and not a total jerk, while the male protagonist has to demonstrate his own desirability by his actions, than the other way around? Or is it just my bias speaking here?
More specifically about sex, when and how is the male body used to advertise sex? The female body is used to advertise sex in tons of place. From daemonettes being the only daemons with a clear gender indicator, to the totally-idiotic assumptions that goddesses are inherently sexually attractive and linked to sex (Yeah, Kali is NOT linked in any way to sex, and that guy is a goddamn idiot for not fact-checking his assumptions when the internet exist. Also neither is Nemesis, but on the other hand Zeus is a goddamn sex machine, and not exactly a monogamous or consensual one at that, but you would not tell from his in-game appearance…).
“Women's magazine” very often have pictures of naked women on them because they have articles inside telling them how they could look like that. “Men's magazine” tend to have pictures of naked women for the guys to ogle at (though, it's true, there are also men's magazine that do the same a women's magazine now, like Men's health).
Would you disagree that our society pushes men to make advances to women rather than the other way around too?
Do you think all this is due to “biological differences” rather than the influence of societal norms we are exposed to all our lives?

I see what you're saying about Faster pussycat but my point was simply that depending on who/where/when you are your predispositions about what is sexualisation and what is not will wildly differ. Some things are so far overboard on it that almost universally (note I said almost because there are always exceptions) people can agree that it is sexualisation but then there are other instances where it is much more subtle and some will think it is while others won't. My point stands that sexualisation is a big grey area and depending on the individual they will perceive it as such, there isn't a clear line in the sand that separates sexualized things from those that are not. For the nose art on warplanes I think it would be prudent to ask those involved what they think about it. The artists, the pilots, gunners, those dogfighting with them. Their perceptions on whether they believe it to be sexualisation may differ from yours now, but most importantly it's what you think of it, if you think it is sexualisation then to you it is, if they don't think it is then to them it isn't. I'm not trying to tell you what to think is sexualisation but merely trying to say that it's up to YOU whether you believe it to be and to make decisions based on that. same goes for Kirikou and that music video, I don't perceive any sexualisation out of them because for Kirikou I know enough about African cultures to know that nudity is a norm there and so I try to see it emphatically as they do. The music video is depicting some tribal motif, again where nudity is a norm and so I see it through that lens and don't see it as sexualisation. that's MY interpretation and it may differ from the opinion of another individual. Their view is no less valid than mine and I would respect it even if I don't agree with it.

On to the second point: The statement I made about supply and demand I stand by and the reason I did not continue that thought is because as I stated earlier this topic is far too large to cover in this thread. I stopped there because I felt further explanation was unnecessary to make my point about the differing ratios. I'm always open to further discussion and more information concerning the WHY of this topic but I just felt it didn't belong on dakka. I have my views on why the demand for female sexualisation is more common than the demand for male sexualisation but given that this is a tabletop wargaming community I felt those views and the discussion about them is best left to other venues designed more for this conversation. I would like to clear one thing up though: I feel you seem to think that I believe it is only natural that the ratio is skewed one way and that this is ok. In fact I believe it is a combination of many things but very strongly our societal norms play a huge role in this. If our societal norms were to change and the demand for male sexualisation was demanded more then to see the ratio shift would make sense. In fact I think our cultural norms in north America are shifting because movies like Magic Mike are coming out and they even do quite well for themselves and get sequels, this may be the pre-cursor to a shift showing the rise of male sexualisation in the more traditional sense that it has been happening to women and we may see a bridge between the demand ratios. But I digress... Please don't misunderstand me and say that I said "it's only natural" concerning WHY the demand is different, I never said that at all, but what I was trying to say is that if the demand is higher for sexualisation of women then it is natural that the supply would be higher to match it.

To answer a couple of your questions at the end there: I can't speak to your region of the world but I know in my region it is the norm for the male to express interest in the female first when it comes to asking someone on a date and as is traditional I'm sure in many places for the man to ask the girl to marry him. In recent years however I have noticed that more and more girls are asking guys to date them and I even know one couple now where the female proposed to the male. Second question: I don't pretend to know enough about human biology or how our brains work to give a full response other than to say that it is possible that our biological difference may influence our desires for sexualised material, maybe it does but truthfully I don't know. Societal norms are a key player in what is sexualised and informing demand and I think you can objectively look at that by viewing other cultures and seeing how, despite being human like everywhere else, they have different views on sexualisation.

I don't pretend to have all the answers Hybrid, and I don't mean to offend with anything I post and I hope you don't take it that way. I simply shared some of my thoughts on the subject.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That's an awesome helmet Furyou, you make that yourself? What materials were used?

It's funny how as old as the SoB models are I feel they aged much better than some of the other models of their era. Anyone else feel this way?

 Psienesis wrote:
Have you... not seen a men's underwear advertisement lately? An ad for men's deodorant? An ad for a pick-up truck? These all depict big, brawny dudes doing big, brawny dude things.

Or in some cases they just use something manly and let you understand that this is the manliest manly thing you could have, and without it you're just not a man. Your balls were left somewhere before the real manly advertisement.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/emma-gray/bushmaster-rifle-ad-masculinity-gun-violence-newtown-adam-lanza_b_2317924.html

It's debatable whether "sexualization" is really germane to this topic. It is in my judgment certain, however, that the current tangent is off-topic. Anyone wishing to further discuss "sexualization" should do so in the Off-Topic forum. Thanks!

 Furyou Miko wrote:
It's a decoration, don't be obtuse :p

I thought it was for cosplay. Hard to tell from a picture, because I have no idea which material is used and I cannot gauge the size of it ^^.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
For the nose art on warplanes I think it would be prudent to ask those involved what they think about it. The artists, the pilots, gunners, those dogfighting with them.

I am pretty sure they were universally considered pinups…

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
same goes for Kirikou and that music video, I don't perceive any sexualisation out of them because for Kirikou I know enough about African cultures to know that nudity is a norm there and so I try to see it emphatically as they do. The music video is depicting some tribal motif, again where nudity is a norm and so I see it through that lens and don't see it as sexualisation.

Honestly I think it is more about how it is treated by the camera (and the story in Kirikou) than the context. I am pretty sure other music videos with a tribal motif would look very sexualized to you and me ^^.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
I'm always open to further discussion and more information concerning the WHY of this topic but I just felt it didn't belong on dakka.

I don't know, how do the mods feel about it?

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
It's funny how as old as the SoB models are I feel they aged much better than some of the other models of their era. Anyone else feel this way?

Yes . Especially
, best mini evar!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I don't know, how do the mods feel about it?

See above.

 Manchu wrote:
It's debatable whether "sexualization" is really germane to this topic.

Germane? What does Germany has to do with it ?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
It's debatable whether "sexualization" is really germane to this topic.

Germane? What does Germany has to do with it ?

Full Definition of germane
1
obsolete : closely akin
2
: being at once relevant and appropriate : fitting <omit details that are not germane to the discussion>
ger·mane·ly adverb

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
It's debatable whether "sexualization" is really germane to this topic.

Germane? What does Germany has to do with it ?

germane
adjective
relevant to a subject under consideration.

 Melissia wrote:
And what do they suggest to emphasize the feminine characteristics? Giant boobs, fetishwear, and sultry poses-- traits and fashions which titillate and draw attention to how sexually desirable the person or miniature is.

And those of us who point out that it's possible to feminize a mini without those things by focusing on the more subtle cues that a figure is not male get more or less ignored or shouted down. Being able to tell someone is female in armor =/= boob plate. But instead we get people demanding either no difference at all (not realistic [remember folks, they took some effort to get the actress into that outfit for Brienne of Tarth and felt she was still 'too pretty' even with all they did] + not interesting) or 'huge tracts of land' and high heels. (Over sexualized + over done)

It's highly annoying..


edit: sorry, posted from a page back, this thread moves too fast. Apologies Manchu.

NP, just trying to get the conversation moving past this intractable issue.

Hybrid, we will leave this topic discussion alone then, suffice to say I feel we got a good discussion and it was, to my perceptions, handled fairly maturely especially given the subject matter. Thank you kind Sir or Madam for an enjoyable internet discussion with me that didn't devolve horrendously, those seem rare nowadays looking at many comments sections on the internet. I tip my hat to you. Also is that one of your models that you painted? It looks good, I used that model as my sister superior for my retributor squad, minus the flames on her power pack of course.


Manchu, I apologize for the OT discussion and thank you for your patience. I'm sure as a mod you cringed as this topic came up fearing what it may become. Thank you as well Sir or Madam.

BaronIveagh, I completely agree with you, the two extremes tend to be the loudest and the people with very valid, very sane ideas get lost in the middle. I feel a plastic re-design done somewhere in the middle as you suggest could work very well and keep many people happy.

So if they do re-release plastic sisters how do you guys feel about tanks like the exorcist? Would you want them to make a plastic pipe organ top piece or re-design the tank to perhaps look more like a missile platform?

Came here to read about people thoughts on why GW too slowed to remake SoB and it now became :

10% people actually discussing ops question
25% SoB have sweg hats
65% sexualisation thingny thing.

this ain't reddit, wtf going on here.


to respond to the real question :

its obvious gw doesnt care about sob and would rather expand on the armies that work already rather then revamping an old army in the hopes they might get sales of of it. i dont think gw thinks of making a big money hit with the sob line so they dont bother with it.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
It's a decoration, don't be obtuse :p

I thought it was for cosplay. Hard to tell from a picture, because I have no idea which material is used and I cannot gauge the size of it ^^.

Oh, lol. I thought it was pretty obvious from the stuff on the table around it and the comment about firing that it was clay. ^^; Sorry.

 Melissia wrote:
....people in this very thread have expressed the fear that if they don't emphasize and sexualize female miniatures.....

For someone who took exception to the idea that people were "bothered" by boob plate, I would have thought you would be more careful using a term like "fear".

People aren't "afraid" their models will be mistaken for males, they simply think it'd be better if their female models were visually distinctive. And visually distinctive doesn't have to mean fetishwear and sultry poses.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 drunken0elf wrote:
Came here to read about people thoughts on why GW too slowed to remake SoB and it now became :

10% people actually discussing ops question
25% SoB have sweg hats
65% sexualisation thingny thing.

this ain't reddit, wtf going on here.


to respond to the real question :

its obvious gw doesnt care about sob and would rather expand on the armies that work already rather then revamping an old army in the hopes they might get sales of of it. i dont think gw thinks of making a big money hit with the sob line so they dont bother with it.

Welcome to every SoB thread ever Actually the hat thing is new, lol.

"Sexualized" is in the eye of the beholder. Catachans are a Tom of Finland fantasy (look it up, I'm not going to describe it on a gaming forum ).

In an attempt to move the discussion forwards I suggest a new topic: In terms of gameplay what could be emphasised to make SoB more different compared to Space Marines?

pm713 wrote:
In an attempt to move the discussion forwards I suggest a new topic: In terms of gameplay what could be emphasised to make SoB more different compared to Space Marines?

That fate based thing they already have?
also that they are T3.

I think sisters are already quite different then marines. When you consider that there is space in the lineup for red/grey/blue/silver/spiky/etc marines, they have more then enough to distinguish themselves.

They are the masters of the close range firefight. They have a number of specialist units. Army specific special rules (AoF). I did prefer the version of faith where you started with a number based on faithful units, spent from that pool, and got more back when sisters were martyred. Made the army start strong, as your initial faith brought you to battle, the crisis of faith in the middle, where you had spent most of it, were mostly mauled, but not martyred yet, and then the heroic final stands where the survivors pulled out some miracles at the end, avenging their sisters.

I think at the core, power armored sisters are in a pretty good spot. It’s all the other stuff in the codex that could use a little work. If things like repenta and penitent engines were more viable, you would see a lot more of the crazed zealot side of the army on the table. There are a lot of things that could be looted from marine lists, but the more you do that, the less distinct the army gets. Same for the guard. The eclisiarchy is crazy rich and influential. If there is hardware they need/want, fluff-wise they should be able to get it. If I could add one new thing it would be mobs of faithful rabble.

I completely agree with Nevelon's headline point: Sisters are already distinct. I quibble only with the idea of having a Faith Point pool based on quantity of Faith-producing units in the list. That could use revision. Thematically, Acts of Faith are most dramatic when they come into play against the odds. Faith, after all, is what the Sisters rely upon at their core, when all else fails.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Hybrid, we will leave this topic discussion alone then, suffice to say I feel we got a good discussion and it was, to my perceptions, handled fairly maturely especially given the subject matter. Thank you kind Sir or Madam for an enjoyable internet discussion with me that didn't devolve horrendously, those seem rare nowadays looking at many comments sections on the internet.

Thanks to you too .

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Also is that one of your models that you painted? It looks good, I used that model as my sister superior for my retributor squad, minus the flames on her power pack of course.

Thanks, it is, and I use it for the very same purpose . Great mind think alike.
The backpack is all thanks to me starting the army early, back when one could order any separate part from any model from GW. I got one of those for each of my Sister Superior (except the one to which I added a cape) and one with just one big flame in the middle for my canoness (old sculpt, which I like a lot more than the new one).

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
So if they do re-release plastic sisters how do you guys feel about tanks like the exorcist? Would you want them to make a plastic pipe organ top piece or re-design the tank to perhaps look more like a missile platform?

Definitely pipe organ for me. And I would love to see them get tons of crazy thinks like this.

 drunken0elf wrote:
Came here to read about people thoughts on why GW too slowed to remake SoB and it now became :

10% people actually discussing ops question
[…]
to respond to the real question :

its obvious […]

The problem with the original question, and the reason why there is so much of topic, is that just like you say, we can only state the obvious. None of us has any inside sources in GW, so we are stuck with “They do not think it will give them loads of money” (which is not exactly a big reveal) and we have no idea why they think so, we have no sales figure, we have no basis to check if they are right or wrong on that, or even if it's the real reason…

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Oh, lol. I thought it was pretty obvious from the stuff on the table around it and the comment about firing that it was clay. ^^; Sorry.

I was not sure what firing meant. ESL.

pm713 wrote:
In an attempt to move the discussion forwards I suggest a new topic: In terms of gameplay what could be emphasised to make SoB more different compared to Space Marines?

Faith powers, frateris milita/redemptionists to go along with priests as crazy zealous civilans-turned-murdering-maniacs, crazy machines like the exorcist but more crazier.

Money, backlash from SJWs, lack of skill with female models?

 Brennonjw wrote:
backlash from SJWs

Honestly, I'll never understand that one. And I think this whole paranoia is pretty recent too…

pm713 wrote:
In an attempt to move the discussion forwards I suggest a new topic: In terms of gameplay what could be emphasised to make SoB more different compared to Space Marines?

1. Don't mess with the holy trinity of weapons: adding plasma and grav and lascannons just because reasons.
2. Faith has to be an integral part of the army: don't make it random (hurr moar dice) and make it scale with list size.
3. Make our CC units functional: Repentia and Pengines should be legitimate choices.

But this is god-tier wishlisting. If GW revisits the Sisters, they'll butcher them.

pm713 wrote:
In an attempt to move the discussion forwards I suggest a new topic: In terms of gameplay what could be emphasised to make SoB more different compared to Space Marines?

Overall I think they are just different enough to be outside the realm of "Just another marine army" but if I was to start getting greedy I would say perhaps we get some unique weapons. Maybe one unique weapon for each weapon of the holy trinity and one unique melee weapon. Perhaps some sort of flail with the burning ashes of a revered SoB in it. For each unsaved wound caused in combat with it the user and any allied SoB model in combat with her get a bonus for that round? I'd also like to see new priest models, I'm not a fan of the current offerings from GW and think they could design a much more interesting space priest model. I'm not a fan of the current AoF system, it's ok but it takes some bookkeeping and it just doesn't feel epic enough. The systems described above me sound more fun with a total tally at the beginning and then more at the end as your sisters are martyred. Any idea how to get that out of being an MSU spam tactic though?

 Manchu wrote:
I completely agree with Nevelon's headline point: Sisters are already distinct. I quibble only with the idea of having a Faith Point pool based on quantity of Faith-producing units in the list. That could use revision. Thematically, Acts of Faith are most dramatic when they come into play against the odds. Faith, after all, is what the Sisters rely upon at their core, when all else fails.

I like the army-wide pool. Having it based off of faithful units makes it scale better then the 1d6 version. In this day and age of allies everywhere, I think it also works better then a scale based on points value.

With a point system you can have a few units burn hot, and spend more then their share of faith. I have fond memories of sisters refusing to fall, standing defiant against foes that should have snuffed them. Very thematic. But when the faith ran out, they crumpled. Managing the pool was an important part of the battle. GW is still doing this kind of system, over in the khorn demonkin book with blood points. So it’s not just an antiquated relic from back in 3rd.

On the topic of the exorcist, it’s baroque over the top nature is very much in the aesthetic of the army. Even though it’s basically a variant of the predator, it feels completely different. While I think things like the Baal pred would fit in just fine with the SoB mechanically, I like the fact they they have their own look.

 Nevelon wrote:
But when the faith ran out

Yesh so if I was somehow put in charge of developing SoB my design would not allow for their faith to "run out." I am thinking of some kind of system where individual units get tougher as armywide synergies fail.

 the_Armyman wrote:

pm713 wrote:
In an attempt to move the discussion forwards I suggest a new topic: In terms of gameplay what could be emphasised to make SoB more different compared to Space Marines?

1. Don't mess with the holy trinity of weapons: adding plasma and grav and lascannons just because reasons.
2. Faith has to be an integral part of the army: don't make it random (hurr moar dice) and make it scale with list size.
3. Make our CC units functional: Repentia and Pengines should be legitimate choices.

But this is god-tier wishlisting. If GW revisits the Sisters, they'll butcher them.

Heh. Every time GW mentions sisters they get butchered. Good points overall!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
backlash from SJWs

Honestly, I'll never understand that one. And I think this whole paranoia is pretty recent too…

Just ask Josh Wheedon after he got chased off of twitter by SJW's after Avengers 2.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:

pm713 wrote:
In an attempt to move the discussion forwards I suggest a new topic: In terms of gameplay what could be emphasised to make SoB more different compared to Space Marines?

Overall I think they are just different enough to be outside the realm of "Just another marine army" but if I was to start getting greedy I would say perhaps we get some unique weapons. Maybe one unique weapon for each weapon of the holy trinity and one unique melee weapon. Perhaps some sort of flail with the burning ashes of a revered SoB in it. For each unsaved wound caused in combat with it the user and any allied SoB model in combat with her get a bonus for that round? I'd also like to see new priest models, I'm not a fan of the current offerings from GW and think they could design a much more interesting space priest model. I'm not a fan of the current AoF system, it's ok but it takes some bookkeeping and it just doesn't feel epic enough. The systems described above me sound more fun with a total tally at the beginning and then more at the end as your sisters are martyred. Any idea how to get that out of being an MSU spam tactic though?

I would take it even further. Their flavor/style seems unique, but that's likely for those of us that have been around the hobby long enough to know they exist. Anyone that's gotten into the hobby in the last few years(maybe even 6 or 7 years) has likely never seen any SoB models on store shelves. When they do go look at the model range, what they see is another army wearing power army, carrying bolters as their main weapon, with special/heavy weapons options that are identical to marines and guard. Even their unit organization is too similar to marines with equivalents to assault squads and devastator squads. Their transports are again basically the same as marines. I love the SoB...but it's just not that different, which is likely why GW has never put a whole lot of effort into the army.

Like the AdMech, I feel the emperors church deserves a set of unique weapons manufactured for purging the emperors foes with faith. Perhaps primary weapons that are fire based to fit into their cleansing nature? Giving their power armor a new name to fit the faith motif that comes with a 6++. Gothic looking transports that air lift the sisters into battle (I imagine a small scale looking BFG ships). Seraphim with proper wings that have rules making them living saints appearing from the heavens. Overhauled acts of faith.

There's so much cool stuff they can do with this army to make them a clearly distinct arm of the imperium and not just another token force wielding bolters riding around in rhinos. The AdMech mass produce weapons/vehicles for the armies of the imperium, yet they don't share any weapons with them. I'm sure the could give the emperors church the same kind of treatment.

Seraphim jump packs already echo wings, and they're some of the nicest backpack pieces in the entire game. I hate it when people try and give them feathery wings because hurr durr angels.

Seraphim are human, even if they are lightly touched by the Emperor and trained in Gun Kata.

As far as unique weapons are concerned, when was the last time you actually saw an honest to Emperor melta gun in a Marine army? Some time two codices ago before Grav, right?

What we need is something that poses a credible thread to Gargantuans, and for the rest of our range to be actually available.

The fact is that with the current Faith system, points costs and gear in the books, the Sisters army is bloody powerful against everything else. We have one of the best fliers in the game (Avenger), almost anything you care to point Dominions at dies, and we have some of the best resilience-per-point-cost ObSec in the whole game.

Inevitable_Faith wrote:The systems described above me sound more fun with a total tally at the beginning and then more at the end as your sisters are martyred. Any idea how to get that out of being an MSU spam tactic though?

IIRC some acts of faith you needed to roll higher then the number of sisters in the squad to activate, others lower. So some powers would be rough to fire off on a 5 sister squad. It’s been years, so I forget a lot of the fine details. Plus all of my contact with SoB has either been on the paintbench or across the table. Admittedly, a lot of both, as they were my best friend’s army. But I don’t own the books or have studied them deeply. Just a lot of games, and a lot of chatting.

Manchu wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
But when the faith ran out

Yesh so if I was somehow put in charge of developing SoB my design would not allow for their faith to "run out." I am thinking of some kind of system where individual units get tougher as armywide synergies fail.

Running out of points doesn’t necessarily mean that the unit’s faith has broken, but I see your point. Faith will see you through a lot, but after the 4th or 5th swing, that thunder hammer is going to make it to your skull. I just like the interaction of faith and martyrdom that the old system had. The new DE system gives army wide bonuses as the game progresses IIRC. You could run with something like that. I’m not as fond of that idea, but it could work.

At the end of the day, it’s what GW decides to go with next time. They do change faith every codex.


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 Furyou Miko wrote:

What we need is something that poses a credible thread to Gargantuans

I think blessed bolter ammo (either as an AoF or wargear for celestions) that always wounds on a X+ might be a decent answer.

On that note: how do rending HBs do? The once/twice a game thing limits the ability to spam, but you are chucking a lot of dice.

SoB can also spam melta like nobody’s business, which solves a lot of problems. And as long as your dice aren’t too fickle, exorcists also put out a lot of S8 AP1 firepower. And judging by recent codexes, should be able to squadron next time you get an update, which should help with the congested HS slot. Of course, formations will also affect that.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Seraphim jump packs already echo wings, and they're some of the nicest backpack pieces in the entire game. I hate it when people try and give them feathery wings because hurr durr angels.

Seraphim are human, even if they are lightly touched by the Emperor and trained in Gun Kata.

As far as unique weapons are concerned, when was the last time you actually saw an honest to Emperor melta gun in a Marine army? Some time two codices ago before Grav, right?

I stand by what I want for the army and seraphim. If you want them to remain basically marine offshoots, that's your business. I simply would prefer for them to keep the core of their fluff and gothic style, while getting weapons and units as unique as the newest AdMech release.

Additionally, I see meltaguns everytime I play against a Salamanders SM army, which is fairly common in my meta. Lots of marines armies here also like taking combimelta command squads in a drop pod for insta popping a tank or high priority target from the get go, regardless of chapter.

I feel like seraphim have their own niche thanks to gunslinger and hand flamers. Some other special rules to make them stand out would be lovely too. Do they come standard with hit and run or is that a celsestine thing?

As for their jump packs, I'm indifferent either way. Personally I would prefer not to have actual wings, I feel DE already have them and there's lots of other armies with winged units too. Blood angels and Eldar I can think of off the top of my head. Maybe a "wings of light" thing they did for the sigmarite winged dude would be cool, just on a smaller scale? Even if they keep the pack as it is now I'd be happy too, it's not ugly by any stretch either way. At the end of the day though I totally understand the desire to convert angel wings on them and I've seen some that are ridiculously gorgeously converted (using DE wings I believe). People should make their models exactly what they want them to be, you spent good money, time and effort on them to get them on the table so they should be something you are proud of, angel wings or jump pack are both valid options.

nevelon you mentioned blessed ammunition, I gotta say that got me thinking and maybe a way to make our elite slot celestians worth taking? So all celestians have blessed ammunition, and the ammunition functions differently based on what prayers you recite.You could have one prayer for each of the weapons in the holy trinity. For example:

-Prayer of Purging: All bolters with blessed ammunition change their weapon type to Torrent S3 AP6
-Hymn of Purity: All bolters with blessed ammunition change their weapon type to Salvo 3/5 S4 AP5
-Litanies of Annihilation: All bolters with blessed ammunition change their weapon type to Assault 1 Melta S4 AP1 18" range

So the idea is the celestians in our elite slot now have a very versatile and unique role and we could even extend the option to upgrade any veteran sister superior to have blessed ammunition for a points cost. I like the mental image of a unit of decked out celestians marching into battles reciting prayers while firing their weapons and in unison switching prayers on the fly and having their weapons bark out different flavours of the emperors holy justice. Obviously the stats I put above are just ballparking any semblance of balance but what do you guys think? Is this a good way to make celestians feel better than one shot combi-weapon monkeys like the chaos chosen are?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Faith powers, frateris milita/redemptionists to go along with priests as crazy zealous civilans-turned-murdering-maniacs, crazy machines like the exorcist but more crazier.

... maybe as side units, but if I wanted to play freakshow armies I'd play Inquisition rather htan sisters. I don't really want freak units to be necessary parts of my core, complete Sisters of Battle army. Optional parts to add variations to the list, but I'd hate it if they became a "must have". My mental image of Sisters of Battle are Paladins of the Ecclesiarchy, merging the professional soldier and the holy warrior in to something unique and interesting. Ideally, the Sisters of Battle and the Ecclesiarchy both would get some love, both be able to be used independently as complete armies, and also work well together. But I don't want Sisters to absolutely need the freakshow that is the church's bizarre contraptions.

Church-tank Super-Heavy firing D-strength Large Blasts (it chucks/shoots a melta-shell the size of a city bus). Expensive? Yes, but this is the Ecclesiarchy, you cannot attach a price-tag to Faith.

Center-piece Reliquary, functioning similar to banners, KFF or Doom-bells or similar items in the GW product line that provide a buff/effect to allies/enemies within a given bubble-radius around it, depending on the specific Relic. Some are defensive (6" 3++ save to all allies, for example), some are offensive (Center a blast marker on a unit within 12" once per turn on a roll of 4+, deals a S8 AP2 hit on models under the marker as they get struck with divine lightning), depending on which Saint the relic is from.

Minor Relics carried by Veteran Sisters/Sister Superiors that provide a minor buff to her unit while she's alive (+1 BS, +1 T, +1 LD, whatever... there could be a laundry list of these).

More unit variety (Biker Nuns with Guns needs to happen. Again.), an Ecclesiarchal Valkyrie (come on, it's right there in the name!). Maybe striking a bit too close to the modern world, but some variations on Repentia. Instead of Eviscerators, they carry melta-bombs or incendiary explosives. Run into melee, blow yourself up. Center small blast on the model, hits any enemy model under the template. The balance there is making sure they don't reach your lines. Could even be a Faith Power, "Gift of the Martyr" that increases the damage or size of the blast (here she comes, she has a present for you... surprise! It's an overcharged melta-bomb! Lucky you.).

Sisters Oblatia. Sort of a reverse to the Repentia, who are atoning for a personal sin, the Oblatia accept the burden of someone else's transgression. Gains... something... when targeted by Psychic Powers. Need to think on that one some more.

I halfway agree. Unlike SM or IG, SoB are not an autonomous institution. They are the Ecclesiarchy's battlefield presence. Trying to pry apart Sisters and the Ecclesiarchy is a mistake. That said, Sisters should have their own book rather than be a sideshow in some half-baked Codex Ecclesiarchy. The solution here is pretty simple, I think. You write a complete dex that features Celestians, Dominions, Serpahim, Repentia, and your mainline Sisters, and you make that totally self-sufficient. Then you add whatever else, like mobs of the faithful or Penitent Engines or Ecclesiarchy friars or whatnot, and you don't make any of it conditional to Sisters doing their job on the tabletop. The other simple solution is to reinvision Sisters slightly so that they are the forefront troops of a crusade; sort of like a battlion of Joan of Arcs. That is their classic image anyhow. You have small, tough, expensive units of Sisters leading blobs of the faithful forward. This solution is really my preference.

I would like to see seraphim gain a new special rule which allows them to exchange all their attacks for two attacks using their pistols weapons profile. Hand flamers either do not work in assualt, do d3 attacks or just the one.

I would also like to see the cannoness be able to take artificer armour and jump packs again and rename her a palatine with the option to upgrade her to a cannoness ala the space marine chapter master.

For celestians I believe that games workshop needs to stop trying to make them normal sisters who are better at assaults. Allow them to take artificer armour as an upgrade, take combi weapons and possibly steal the spiecal ammunition from the stern guard.

finally regarding the sister oblatia idea, I would make it an elite choice single model unit like the lone wolf, with the ability to take relics, rosarius, jump pack, artificer armour and weapons from the heavy, special, ranged and melee weapon lists

I want to see Acts of Faith tied into the martyrdom idea. As Sisters fall, the faith of the remaining is bolstered. I think that things like Simulacrum should still exist and give you a "set" amount of faith that you can modify in list building but the core of it comes from fighting back when the odds are against you. Maybe something like the Blood Tithe is called for but I actually like each unit having its own unique act of faith, so maybe a combination of both?

I think that Celestians need to be better at assault, first and foremost give them storm bolters standard. Second, and this point extends to ALL armies, stop pricing power weapons like everyone is a Chapter Master or Chaos Lord. A T3 1W model should not pay the same for a power sword as a T4 4W model, it makes no sense what so ever.

Keep the Trinity holy, I love unleashing waves of bolters and flamers at my enemies and washing them away, Sisters are one of the few armies that I feel play exactly like their fluff suggest largely because of the Trinity.

I want to see Repentia and Penitent Engines get some kind of mad buff, maybe a more reliable FNP for Repentia and...well walkers in general need help, so help all of them to help Penitent Engines!

So much more but I am to tired to think of it all right now...

Money and lack of a playerbase.
I would love to play the Nuns with Guns but they are more expensive than ForgeWorld.

Seriously, I can get a cheaper ForgeWorld army than I can with SoB.

 Nurgle wrote:
Money and lack of a playerbase.
I would love to play the Nuns with Guns but they are more expensive than ForgeWorld.

Seriously, I can get a cheaper ForgeWorld army than I can with SoB.

Sadly I feel this sums up a huge problem with a remake of SoB currently. GW doesn't want to reboot them because they don't sell well, they don't sell well because the model line is old pewter and super expensive, GW doesn't want to reboot them cause... you get the point. It's one big spiral that unless buying up ALL the old pewter stock becomes a huge trend amongst the player base and demand sky-rockets we won't see any interest from GW in re-booting them in plastic. Or maybe GW does plan to anyways and we just don't have the slightest inkling as to their insane release schedule for when they think would be a good time to drop them out. I have heard that they tend to sit on completed sculpts for a very long time before finally releasing them, the Eldar jetbike comes to mind for this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and btw nurgle I love your user pic. That's an adorable little nurgling from one of my favourite Nurgle based artworks from the old chaos codex. If memory serves there was about 3 or 4 adorable nurglings from that image, one had huge black eyes and was eating something. Good choice of image all the same.

finally regarding the sister oblatia idea, I would make it an elite choice single model unit like the lone wolf, with the ability to take relics, rosarius, jump pack, artificer armour and weapons from the heavy, special, ranged and melee weapon lists

Ooh, I like that idea...

riburn3 wrote:

I stand by what I want for the army and seraphim. If you want them to remain basically marine offshoots, that's your business. I simply would prefer for them to keep the core of their fluff and gothic style, while getting weapons and units as unique as the newest AdMech release.

Additionally, I see meltaguns everytime I play against a Salamanders SM army, which is fairly common in my meta. Lots of marines armies here also like taking combimelta command squads in a drop pod for insta popping a tank or high priority target from the get go, regardless of chapter.

See, I just disagree outright with the idea that Sisters are 'just marine offshoots' as they are now.

 Manchu wrote:
You have small, tough, expensive units of Sisters leading blobs of the faithful forward. This solution is really my preference.

I'd prefer the core of the army to be Sisters, Sisters, and more Sisters. And the freakshow just being add-ons you can take if you really want to. I really don't 'want to be forced to take some ugly mismatched monstrosity or mob of idiots in my Sororitas army.

Even Inquisition and Dark Eldar don't HAVE to play a Freakshow army unless they really want to (granted, Inquisition less so, since it's mostly there to ally in to other armies)

pm713 wrote:
In an attempt to move the discussion forwards I suggest a new topic: In terms of gameplay what could be emphasised to make SoB more different compared to Space Marines?

Fire in the sky!

A soulblaze-esque mechanic depicting people being set on fire, and weapons to deliver this effect on unfortunate foes. Short-range ordinance that drops it in cover-ignoring pie plates, a tank turret or sponson that can only ever glance vehicles it hits, but delivers that effect to the models being transported inside. A relic or upgrade that confers that effect on a bolter, perhaps does something worse to psykers.

Each sisters unit generates faith points and either selects a specific act of faith beforehand or opts not to take any act of faith for the ability to generate still more faith points.

Battle Sisters priced in some way to encourage taking larger blobs of them,

A general sense of suicidal overconfidence, something that encourages aggressive play. A Sisters army should need to stick its neck out to do damage and expect to take a lot of damage in return.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
backlash from SJWs

Honestly, I'll never understand that one. And I think this whole paranoia is pretty recent too…

Just ask Josh Wheedon after he got chased off of twitter by SJW's after Avengers 2.

Did you missed the memo? GW cannot be chased off twitter because they have no account. And if they did, they would be chased by their own fans, no need for SJW. Seriously, the average Dakka user harbor more ill-will toward GW than the average SJW against Whedon.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Do they come standard with hit and run or is that a celsestine thing?

Standard with hit and run, and that his a big part of their identity. Marines uses jump packs to just reach you faster and apply axe to face. Seraphims uses jump pack to just dance around you, just out of reach, while filling you with bolts and prometheum and melta akimbo style.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Personally I would prefer not to have actual wings, I feel DE already have them and there's lots of other armies with winged units too.

And Sisters place a lot of importance on being just “pure” humans with no modifications. Even Celestine does not have wings in the real model.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
nevelon you mentioned blessed ammunition, I gotta say that got me thinking and maybe a way to make our elite slot celestians worth taking? So all celestians have blessed ammunition, and the ammunition functions differently based on what prayers you recite.You could have one prayer for each of the weapons in the holy trinity. For example:

-Prayer of Purging: All bolters with blessed ammunition change their weapon type to Torrent S3 AP6
-Hymn of Purity: All bolters with blessed ammunition change their weapon type to Salvo 3/5 S4 AP5
-Litanies of Annihilation: All bolters with blessed ammunition change their weapon type to Assault 1 Melta S4 AP1 18" range

Give all Celestians artificier armor, power swords and make all their weapons master-crafted. With a special version of mastercrafted so that you do not have to roll individually for all model or something. Done.

 Melissia wrote:
... maybe as side units

Frateris Militia and Redemptionists as side unit. But the crazy machines as part of the Sisters, just like the Exorcist is.

Penitent Engines aren't part of the Sisters though, they're more like Arco-Flagellants than they are like Repentia. That's always been the case outside of people who don't read properly.

What with penitent engine? I mentioned the Exorcist, which looks and feels very different from the penitent engine…

It's the only thing I thought you could possibly mean when you said "crazy machines".

Sadly Hybrid I don't see those changes to celestians making them worthwhile at all. They lack a good delivery method, they have no true mobility outside of a transport, S3 T3 isn't an impressive fighter without some other nice benefits added. I just have a hard time imagining they'd ever make their points back or do anything other than get blown out of their transport then spend all game getting kited while they try to chase units down that are just going to move 6" a turn and fire. They'd need a lot more than just artificer armor and power weapons to make them good at melee, or getting there for that matter.

I understand the sentiment of wanting them to be good at melee but I just don't see GW making the huge changes to them necessary for that to happen, I think blessed ammunition seems much more likely as there is a unit for SM that functions similarly that I could see GW basing them on. Unless GW wants to base them on something like striking scorpions or howling banshees (which I see as unlikely) I can't imagine them being good at melee or getting into melee.

I also don't see much fluff about sisters ever wanting to get into melee with an enemy, they seem like a shooting army to me. I think GW should just make the changes to repentia and penitent engines to make them useable and we can use those as our melee units.

I know a couple people have also mentioned changing repentia to be essentially suicide bombers. Whether I think this is in poor taste or not (I think it is in poor taste btw) is irrelevant to the fact that it really doesn't fit the fluff for them. The idea for some repentia (not all) is that they can be redeemed by their actions as a repentia and be accepted back into the fold. I read of one cannoness who willingly threw away her armor and joined the ranks of the repentia to prove to herself and her sisters that she is worthy of them. She felt if the emperor had plans for her then he would carry her through and she would be able to repent and be accepted back into the sisterhood. She survived her stint as repentia and later became a cannoness. Surviving being a repentia is designed to be incredibly unlikely but if you do it's made to redeem oneself and join the sisterhood again. Strapping bombs to oneself does not have the same sentiments that repentia are made to showcase in my opinion.

Just my two cents

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Sadly Hybrid I don't see those changes to celestians making them worthwhile at all. They lack a good delivery method, they have no true mobility outside of a transport, S3 T3 isn't an impressive fighter without some other nice benefits added. I just have a hard time imagining they'd ever make their points back or do anything other than get blown out of their transport then spend all game getting kited while they try to chase units down that are just going to move 6" a turn and fire. They'd need a lot more than just artificer armor and power weapons to make them good at melee, or getting there for that matter.

They do not need to be in melee to use their master-crafted melta and flamers to kill stuff dead with being able to take quite a beating thanks to a 2+ armor save…
The power sword is the icing on the cake.


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 Furyou Miko wrote:
It's the only thing I thought you could possibly mean when you said "crazy machines".

I literally mentionned the exorcist…
Does it look like a sane design to you?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Sadly Hybrid I don't see those changes to celestians making them worthwhile at all. They lack a good delivery method, they have no true mobility outside of a transport, S3 T3 isn't an impressive fighter without some other nice benefits added. I just have a hard time imagining they'd ever make their points back or do anything other than get blown out of their transport then spend all game getting kited while they try to chase units down that are just going to move 6" a turn and fire. They'd need a lot more than just artificer armor and power weapons to make them good at melee, or getting there for that matter.

They do not need to be in melee to use their master-crafted melta and flamers to kill stuff dead with being able to take quite a beating thanks to a 2+ armor save…
The power sword is the icing on the cake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
It's the only thing I thought you could possibly mean when you said "crazy machines".

I literally mentionned the exorcist…
Does it look like a sane design to you?

If by not sane you mean awesome, then no, it doesn't look sane at all.
I love the exorcist. I don't know about you, but a missile launching organ sounds pretty rad.
I wonder if it plays toccata and fugue.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Sadly Hybrid I don't see those changes to celestians making them worthwhile at all. They lack a good delivery method, they have no true mobility outside of a transport, S3 T3 isn't an impressive fighter without some other nice benefits added. I just have a hard time imagining they'd ever make their points back or do anything other than get blown out of their transport then spend all game getting kited while they try to chase units down that are just going to move 6" a turn and fire. They'd need a lot more than just artificer armor and power weapons to make them good at melee, or getting there for that matter.

They do not need to be in melee to use their master-crafted melta and flamers to kill stuff dead with being able to take quite a beating thanks to a 2+ armor save…
The power sword is the icing on the cake.

Power Swords does make them look like Melee specialists, but yeah, as a backup weapon to help them handle things when their 2" optimum firing range fails to wipe the target out they sound pretty awesome.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
It's the only thing I thought you could possibly mean when you said "crazy machines".

I literally mentionned the exorcist…
Does it look like a sane design to you?

Yes.

That's the boring version.
Decorated Piano of death is best piano

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Frateris Militia and Redemptionists as side unit. But the crazy machines as part of the Sisters, just like the Exorcist is.

Arco-Flagellants, Death Cultists, and Penitent Engines are not part of the Sisters of Battle. They are assets used by the Ecclesiarchy. Penitent Engines are not "crazy machines". They're a tank with a missile launcher on it.

 Melissia wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Frateris Militia and Redemptionists as side unit. But the crazy machines as part of the Sisters, just like the Exorcist is.

Arco-Flagellants, Death Cultists, and Penitent Engines are not part of the Sisters of Battle. They are assets used by the Ecclesiarchy. Penitent Engines are not "crazy machines". They're a tank with a missile launcher on it.

I think you're getting a bit too literal here. SOB use PE's and they're in the codex. Where they requisition stuff is of no real importance.
Also, I think you meant, Excorcist.
I hated the pipe organ thing and went with something else instead.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Frateris Militia and Redemptionists as side unit. But the crazy machines as part of the Sisters, just like the Exorcist is.

Arco-Flagellants, Death Cultists, and Penitent Engines are not part of the Sisters of Battle. They are assets used by the Ecclesiarchy. Penitent Engines are not "crazy machines". They're a tank with a missile launcher on it.

I think you're getting a bit too literal here. SOB use PE's and they're in the codex.

No, I'm not. In the lore, the Ecclesiarchy uses them. They need a priest, not a Battle Sister, to control them. They're not "used by the sisters".


And yes I meant the exorcist. Also there's only one C in exorcist.

 Melissia wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Frateris Militia and Redemptionists as side unit. But the crazy machines as part of the Sisters, just like the Exorcist is.

Arco-Flagellants, Death Cultists, and Penitent Engines are not part of the Sisters of Battle. They are assets used by the Ecclesiarchy. Penitent Engines are not "crazy machines". They're a tank with a missile launcher on it.

I think you're getting a bit too literal here. SOB use PE's and they're in the codex.

No, I'm not. In the lore, the Ecclesiarchy uses them. They need a priest, not a Battle Sister, to control them. They're not "used by the sisters".


And yes I meant the exorcist. Also there's only one C in exorcist.

Oh, the tried and true tactic of last resort. Correcting spelling and grammar. I bow down to your superior knowledge.
I know the fluff, I'm saying, the PE is in the codex and is used on the table by SOB. No priest needed. I'm talking game wise. So, game wise, by all intents and purposes, the PE is a SOB unit.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
And yes I meant the exorcist. Also there's only one C in exorcist.

Oh, the tried and true tactic of last resort. Correcting spelling and grammar. I bow down to your superior knowledge.

The last sentence of my post was not the only sentence of my post. For someone who complains about others supposedly using shifty tactics, you're shamelessly using one of the most pathetic ones in attempting to shift the topic to that.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I'm talking game wise..

Which is what makes your argument completely and utterly irrelevant. Priests are in the same codex as Penitent Engines, are you going to argue that all ministorum priests are sisters, too? The codex includes units from both the Sisters and the Ecclesiarchy. Though the two groups are intertwined, they are not the same thing.

All Sisters are members of the Ecclisiarchy.
Not all members of the Ecclisiarchy are Sisters.

 Melissia wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
And yes I meant the exorcist. Also there's only one C in exorcist.

Oh, the tried and true tactic of last resort. Correcting spelling and grammar. I bow down to your superior knowledge.

The last sentence of my post was not the only sentence of my post. For someone who complains about others supposedly using shifty tactics, you're shamelessly using one of the most pathetic ones in attempting to shift the topic to that.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I'm talking game wise..

Which is what makes your argument completely and utterly irrelevant. Priests are in the same codex as Penitent Engines, are you going to argue that all ministorum priests are sisters, too? The codex includes units from both the Sisters and the Ecclesiarchy. Though the two groups are intertwined, they are not the same thing.

Umm...I did mention more than just your last quote. I addressed the rest. In fact, you even quoted (some of it) it right up there. Are there two of you posting under the same name?
And that doesn't change that attacking spelling instead of argument kind of makes you look petty.
SOB are a part of the Ecclisiarchy. They're the strong arm of the church. So, SOB use tools of the church. Otherwise it would be like saying the Army and Army Aviation are completely different organizations.
Either way. I think you're arguing to argue and I'm done.

 MWHistorian wrote:
And that doesn't change that attacking spelling

On the contrary, no one but you even pretends to care.

 MWHistorian wrote:
SOB are a part of the Ecclisiarchy. They're the strong arm of the church.

On the contrary, they're not merely the militant arm of the church, they also regulate it. You're basically making the same argument that someone might make when they say that, because imperial guard has psykers, that means that psykers are imperial guard.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Either way. I think you're arguing to argue and I'm done.

I'm arguing because I'm right. If you want to quit because you're not, go ahead.

the way I see it the sisters are the main armed force of the ecclesiarchy with the militia acting as auxiliaries, filling roles where a sister would be just to valuable to waste. these roles would be things like manning artillery, holding backfield objective and acting as a speed-bump against assault units.

regarding celestians, I am completely against giving them all power weapons, power weapons are expensive and are the tools of heavy duty assault units, which the celestians aren't and should never be. If the celestians use assault it should be defensively with rules such as counter attack and defensive grenades. I am much more in favor of making celestians fill a specialized shooting role, acting tactically to remove specific threats, this can be achieved by giving them blessed ammunition to respond to certain threats and the precision shot special rule.

The sisters have two veteran units, seraphim and celestians, with the seraphim being the exceedingly faithful, jumping from low orbit with flamer in each hand into a mob of orks, while the celestians are the more tactically minded veterans, hence why they are where the cannoness and palatines are drawn from instead of the seraphim.

That's not quite it at all, Vandire.

The Sororitas are the only military force the Ecclesiarchy is allowed to control.

The Sororitas are also the watchdog placed upon the Ecclesiarchy. They're the Army, and the FBI, and Internal Affairs, and the Secret Service, all rolled into one.

The Frateris Militia are just ordinary Imperial citizens who have formed a mob at the behest of a priest - usually a Missionary or Confessor - and are in the army because that's where the fight is.

The Battle Conclaves are... awkward. Arco-Flagellants are criminals who have been remanded into Ecclesiarchy custody to live out their sentence. Crusaders are cultists who have attached themselves to a given priest as self-appointed bodyguards. Death Cult Assassins are... well, Death Cultists, who have decided to follow the Priest for their own reasons.

Crusaders and DCA aren't really part of the Ecclesiarchy, and Arco-Flagellants and Penitent Engines aren criminals and witches who have been given to the Ecclesiarchy to be worked to death.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
That's not quite it at all, Vandire.

The Sororitas are the only military force the Ecclesiarchy is allowed to control.

The Sororitas are also the watchdog placed upon the Ecclesiarchy. They're the Army, and the FBI, and Internal Affairs, and the Secret Service, all rolled into one.

The Frateris Militia are just ordinary Imperial citizens who have formed a mob at the behest of a priest - usually a Missionary or Confessor - and are in the army because that's where the fight is.

The Battle Conclaves are... awkward. Arco-Flagellants are criminals who have been remanded into Ecclesiarchy custody to live out their sentence. Crusaders are cultists who have attached themselves to a given priest as self-appointed bodyguards. Death Cult Assassins are... well, Death Cultists, who have decided to follow the Priest for their own reasons.

Crusaders and DCA aren't really part of the Ecclesiarchy, and Arco-Flagellants and Penitent Engines aren criminals and witches who have been given to the Ecclesiarchy to be worked to death.

the sororitas is the only OFFICIAL military force the ecclesiarchy is allowed to control, big difference.
in the book faith and fire, their is mention of a saint called Ivar who was once a member of the planetary defense force but pledged himself to saint celestine as a milita and served under her for many years before returning to his home-world. from this we can see that not all milita serve only for the duration of a battle. As for the crusaders, they are a brotherhood of professional close combatants usually found on shrine worlds and funded partially out of generous donations from both the ecclesiarchy and the wealthy nobility. members join through invitation only and are drawn from former militia who proved themselves on the field of battle. since they are not technically part of the ecclesiarchy proper they can get away with this and not be a direct breech of the decree passive. besides, haven't you wondered how a group of cultists could afford power weapons and storm shields, usually weapons solely of the domain of the space marines and other elite warriors of the imperium.

even if you accept that they are not part of the ecclesiarchy, they can still be reliably called upon as a levy when the need arises by the priesthood to aid the sororitas as required. I guess it depends on your definition of a milatary force

I also never claimed that the main orders militant of the sororitas don't act as internal affairs within the ecclesiarchy

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
If by not sane you mean awesome, then no, it doesn't look sane at all.

I literally just asked for more of this in the army, so… yes, I do mean awesome .

 Melissia wrote:
Arco-Flagellants, Death Cultists, and Penitent Engines are not part of the Sisters of Battle. They are assets used by the Ecclesiarchy. Penitent Engines are not "crazy machines". They're a tank with a missile launcher on it.

Okay, I think I still managed to not make myself clear. Let's try again. The Exorcist is a tank with a church organ that shoots missile. This is some pretty crazy design. Does not look practical or sensible in the slightest. But it is also definitely a Sisters of Battle tank. It is manned by a Sister, covered in Sororitas emblems, …
I would love to get more Sororitas tanks (or walkers, or… stuff) that are completely Sister stuff, but have crazy designs in the same vein.

Priest, frateris militia, redemptionists, arcoflagellants and penitent engine are something else entirely, and are indeed not part of the Sororitas. I was never found of the penitent engine design, because with the driver strapped in the front with no protection, it should have T3 no svg. Unless you add techno-magic to the mix, but then it's not a disposable heretic being recklessly sacrificed as a punishment… I would gladly exchange the PE for frateris militia. I mean, just read this comic book! and tell me you don't want to have him on the battlefield .

Maybe in necromunda....

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
That's the boring version.
Decorated Piano of death is best piano

Someone somewhere called it the 5lbs home defense version. I laughed quite a bit.

 Vandire651 wrote:

the sororitas is the only OFFICIAL military force the ecclesiarchy is allowed to control, big difference.

OK.. no. Just stop.

I'm not sure you even understand what 'official' means in this context.

If they were allowed to control them, they would be official. They are not allowed to control unofficial military forces. What they have is a rabble of ordinary people who are in no way a military force.

in the book faith and fire, their is mention of a saint called Ivar who was once a member of the planetary defense force but pledged himself to saint celestine as a milita and served under her for many years before returning to his home-world. from this we can see that not all milita serve only for the duration of a battle.

Yes, and in Faith and Fire, we also have a Celestian Superior who breaks orders, brings down a loyalist cathedral, destroys an entire holy archive, and then gets a slap on the wrist and given her free choice of assignments as a "punishment" so she can go off and live with her girlfriend.

As for the crusaders, they are a brotherhood of professional close combatants usually found on shrine worlds and funded partially out of generous donations from both the ecclesiarchy and the wealthy nobility. members join through invitation only and are drawn from former militia who proved themselves on the field of battle. since they are not technically part of the ecclesiarchy proper they can get away with this and not be a direct breech of the decree passive. besides, haven't you wondered how a group of cultists could afford power weapons and storm shields, usually weapons solely of the domain of the space marines and other elite warriors of the imperium.

even if you accept that they are not part of the ecclesiarchy, they can still be reliably called upon as a levy when the need arises by the priesthood to aid the sororitas as required. I guess it depends on your definition of a milatary force.

They're still not a military force of the ecclesiarchy. Clearly, the Sisterhood agrees with this, because there are still Crusaders around who have not been purged by the holy bolter.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Vandire651 wrote:

the sororitas is the only OFFICIAL military force the ecclesiarchy is allowed to control, big difference.

OK.. no. Just stop.

I'm not sure you even understand what 'official' means in this context.

If they were allowed to control them, they would be official. They are not allowed to control unofficial military forces. What they have is a rabble of ordinary people who are in no way a military force.

in the book faith and fire, their is mention of a saint called Ivar who was once a member of the planetary defense force but pledged himself to saint celestine as a milita and served under her for many years before returning to his home-world. from this we can see that not all milita serve only for the duration of a battle.

Yes, and in Faith and Fire, we also have a Celestian Superior who breaks orders, brings down a loyalist cathedral, destroys an entire holy archive, and then gets a slap on the wrist and given her free choice of assignments as a "punishment" so she can go off and live with her girlfriend.

As for the crusaders, they are a brotherhood of professional close combatants usually found on shrine worlds and funded partially out of generous donations from both the ecclesiarchy and the wealthy nobility. members join through invitation only and are drawn from former militia who proved themselves on the field of battle. since they are not technically part of the ecclesiarchy proper they can get away with this and not be a direct breech of the decree passive. besides, haven't you wondered how a group of cultists could afford power weapons and storm shields, usually weapons solely of the domain of the space marines and other elite warriors of the imperium.

even if you accept that they are not part of the ecclesiarchy, they can still be reliably called upon as a levy when the need arises by the priesthood to aid the sororitas as required. I guess it depends on your definition of a milatary force.

They're still not a military force of the ecclesiarchy. Clearly, the Sisterhood agrees with this, because there are still Crusaders around who have not been purged by the holy bolter.

heres a qoute from dark heresy book, blood of martyrs regarding the militia

the Frateris Militias
While the dictates of the Decree Passive forbid the
Ecclesiarchy to maintain standing armies, provision is
made for the defence of its holdings in time of crisis.
The offcers of the Adeptus Ministorum are authorised
to raise bodies called ‘Frateris Militias’ from their
congregations, arming them however they are able, and
commanding them to defend the Ecclesiarchy against
invaders and unbelievers. The Frateris Militias are not
standing bodies of troops, and their members might be
anything from farmers to scribes. Some may have prior
military experience thanks to service in a planetary
defence unit, while others may never have seen a firearm
up close or at all. What the Frateris Militias lack in
training and discipline (they are wont to fight amongst
themselves if left for too long) they make up for with
zeal. When a War of Faith is called, the militias gather
into vast armies of the faithful, who by belief alone may
conquer any enemy.

seems like a pretty standard levy force to me, not professional other then the crusaders, but still a military force, if irregular.

as for the book fire and faith, the deacon was a heretic, harboring multiple witch and dreaming of becoming a pskyer himself. how is killing him a treasonous act. also the celestian wasn't slapped on the wrist, she was busted down to the lowest rank possible and sent on a supposedly backwater assignment rebuilding a destroyed convent, and the only reason she wasn't executed or forced to join the repentia was due to the deacon the orders originated from was a heretic.

finnally it's the ordo hereteculus that watchs for breaches of the decree passive, sisters role in internal affairs are more making sure that the cardinals and lower priesthood follow the decrees set by the ecclesiarch and not go rogue or engage in heretical beliefs

I do agree however that the word official is a poor choice of words regarding the militia since I was more talking about the crusader houses then the militia, the sororitas is the only OFFICIAL PROFESSIONAL military force the ecclesiarchy is allowed to control
is probably better worded

Ahem: "The Frateris Militias are not standing bodies of troops"

They are an ad-hoc militia. Not a proper army of soldiers.

Sororitas are still not the "official army commanded by the Ecclesiarchy". The Church works with the Sisterhood, but ultimately, the Sisterhood also regulates the Church and in its best times keeps the Church from its excesses. The Church is technically not allowed any standing army, at all-- thus the Sororitas' independence.

 Melissia wrote:
Ahem: "The Frateris Militias are not standing bodies of troops"

They are an ad-hoc militia. Not a proper army of soldiers.

Achem.

That would depend on where they were raised from. The Maccabian Militia is a frateris militia, strictly speaking, but it also doubles as the PDF for the shrine world of Maccabeus Quintus.

They're known for their frankly suicidal level of discipline, and are the recruiting ground for the Maccabian Janissaries IG regiments.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Ahem: "The Frateris Militias are not standing bodies of troops"

They are an ad-hoc militia. Not a proper army of soldiers.

Achem.

That would depend on where they were raised from. The Maccabian Militia is a frateris militia, strictly speaking, but it also doubles as the PDF for the shrine world of Maccabeus Quintus.

As they are the Planetary Defense Force, they are not the standing army of the Ecclesiarchy. PDFs fall under the Departmento Munitorum, not the Ecclesiarchy. While they can call upon the PDF to follow their rule, at any time, the Munitorum may exert its official control. Whether or not this means anything in the story depends entirely on the writer, of course, but the Munitorum has official control, not the Ecclesiarchy. The Ecclesiarchy is explicitly and specifically disallowed from having a standing army. The Sisters have been allowed to flourish by the Imperium at large not because they're some standing army of the Ecclesiarchy-- It's really hard to describe them as such regardless-- but rather, because of a technicality in the rules, as well as the fact that they regulate the greatest excesses of the Ecclesiarchy and assist the Inquisition in hunting down heretics.

The irony is not lost on some of us that squabbling about the Frateris Militia is being conducted by some of Dakka's own versions of Frateris Militia: so full of righteous zeal, blinded by their own beliefs, and never willing to back down from even the most insignificant conflict

The difference is here there's no bloodshed. Just the occasionally bruised ego.

Guys, stop arguing. Melissa is right about everything, just ask her. If you keep arguing she'll start an English lesson.

Oi. Attack the post, not the poster.

Blood of Martyrs also gives Sisters light power armour, civilian bolters, and eye lasers, but hey, whatever floats your boat. Murders the rest of the fluff.

Hybrid: I'd worry then with power weapons, artificer armour and then loaded up with master crafted range weapons the celestians would come at an unholy points cost. Looking at the history of GW points costs for things such as melta guns, which are a standard price to equip on almost any IoM model, then the points cost for celestians would reach crazy high numbers and at the end of the day they are still a S3 T3 W1 model. Even with a 2+ save I don't think they'd have the survivability to make back the points they'd cost.

A fair points cost can justify almost any unit but in all honesty I see a celestian with artificer armour and power weapon to probably be priced around the 25 points mark. Add in any special weapons cost, like the suggested meltagun and suddenly you're at 35 points for the model assuming the master crafted rule comes for free. An Eldar fire dragon is 22 points a model and while having a melta gun himself he also has melta bombs and a unit-wide rule that makes them even more amazing at popping vehicles. I just have a hard time imagining celestians ever being worth their points investment like this.

I think my greatest gripe however is that ultimately they would feel bland. Celestians with melta guns? Why not dominions then? Celestians with heavy weapons? Why not retributors instead? They wouldn't add anything unique to the army. Now celestians with power weapons and artificer armor still has all the drawbacks of current assault rules, delivery method and mobility being two huge ones coupled with S3 T3 W1, they wouldn't hold a candle to some of the other solid melee units out there.

I'd like to see clestians fill a unique role within the SoB army that makes them a fun option to play. The variable blessed ammunition rule I proposed sounds fun to me and makes them unique and greatly versatile. I'm open to hearing other suggestions about ways to make them a desirable option, including options to make them our premiere SoB melee unit without going into repentia. Ultimately what I feel they need is to be unique and fun to play while still filling a role that may otherwise be left open by our army.

As for those discussing the fluff and Frateris Militia stuff. It's been my observation across many threads when fluff is involved that a few things stick out. Given that these are works of fiction of the written word some people get different impressions of the same subject matter, it's not a matter of who's right or wrong but a matter perspective and peoples interpretations of our language. Secondly is that many people tend to cite sources, which I think is fantastic, but quite often two sources of fluff from different mediums and authors will contradict each other. GW is not innocent of breaking their own fluff and so it depends on which book you read as to what version of fluff you'll be presented. With a universe as large as the 40K universe with as many writers as it has I think it's near impossible not to break your own fluff every once in a while. Or depending on how far back you go into the history of 40K like RT days certain aspects of fluff are brushed under the carpet as if they never happened because it is no longer the image GW desires for their Grimdark universe even though they don't officially state it is no longer cannon. Just in short I think many arguments concerning fluff may be best served by simply admitting you have differing perspectives on the subject and then moving on from it.

Just my opinion anyways, carry on.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Hybrid: I'd worry then with power weapons, artificer armour and then loaded up with master crafted range weapons the celestians would come at an unholy points cost. Looking at the history of GW points costs for things such as melta guns, which are a standard price to equip on almost any IoM model, then the points cost for celestians would reach crazy high numbers and at the end of the day they are still a S3 T3 W1 model. Even with a 2+ save I don't think they'd have the survivability to make back the points they'd cost.

Nah given recent 7.5 codexs - if they did a compartive codex Sororitas would be cheaper, with more options and formation and deatchment buffs

so you'd be looking at Artifcer/power weapon Celestains cheaper than honour Guard - you could choose one unit with a cannoness and banner and give them +1 WS and Shred or something. The main detachment woud get +1 to Sheild fo Faith and re-rolls etc...

Exocists would get to fire twice if they did not move

you know the same cheese as everyone else who is a 7.5 Codex

RULE #1 - MANDATORY, NOT OPTIONAL!

Do NOT attack individual posters - debate their points, by all means, but leave it at that.

Thanks!

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
I'd like to see clestians fill a unique role within the SoB army that makes them a fun option to play. The variable blessed ammunition rule I proposed sounds fun to me and makes them unique and greatly versatile.

Aye, something like the SM Sternguard special bolter ammo might be good. Sisters did have access to holy ammo for vehicle heavy bolters at some point, as I recall - they had Ignore Cover? Celestians that had access to a few special rounds could be both useful and fluffy. An ignore cover round, something that puts stuff on fire and maybe some anti-infantry firepower in a round that produces a small blast? We're sorely lacking in blasts anyway.

I don't really see how making their bullets a little more bling makes them stand out particularly that well. Even going with the Sternguard comparison, most people take Sternguard for the combiweapons, the ammo is just a bonus.

 Melissia wrote:
I don't really see how making their bullets a little more bling makes them stand out particularly that well.

OK, how about Strength D bolters then? Every serious army should have D guns so maybe Celestians is the way to get that for the SoB?

Spetulhu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I don't really see how making their bullets a little more bling makes them stand out particularly that well.

OK, how about Strength D bolters then? Every serious army should have D guns so maybe Celestians is the way to get that for the SoB?

Take me now Golden throne, I beseech thee!

It'd make it far more interesting if, say, they reworked the Sarissas rules and made them a general purpose assault / shooting unit. Something that can be good at both.

Give them their old WS4 / I4, make Sarissas let them be able to charge after using Rapid Fire, give them access to power weapon upgrades, for example. There's tons of ways one can do this, really.

 Melissia wrote:

As they are the Planetary Defense Force, they are not the standing army of the Ecclesiarchy. PDFs fall under the Departmento Munitorum, not the Ecclesiarchy.

No, they serve in the place OF a PDF. Not that they ARE a PDF. Hence 'Maccabian Militia' instead of MPDF. Maccabeus Quintus is a Tithe Grade: Non Shrine World. The whole planet was given over to the Ecclesiarchy, and the IG units raised from it are stated to consider the service to the Departmento as a form of Pilgrimage.

I tend to view the decree passive like the part where Space Marines are not allowed to have warships penned by the Primarchs after the Heresy: Filled with exceptions and contradictions big enough to hide a battleship in (literally in the latter case).

 BaronIveagh wrote:
I tend to view the decree passive like the part where Space Marines are not allowed to have warships penned by the Primarchs after the Heresy: Filled with exceptions and contradictions big enough to hide a battleship in (literally in the latter case).

Over the course of ten thousand years, the rules have been bent and broken quite a bit, yes. But that is the rule officially.

 Melissia wrote:
I don't really see how making their bullets a little more bling makes them stand out particularly that well. Even going with the Sternguard comparison, most people take Sternguard for the combiweapons, the ammo is just a bonus.

If I wanted to take a squad with combi weapons I would take a command squad, not sternguard. Hell I would just give the command squad the special weapon they need. You take Sternguard for the Ammo, not combi weapons

 Melissia wrote:
It'd make it far more interesting if, say, they reworked the Sarissas rules and made them a general purpose assault / shooting unit. Something that can be good at both.

Give them their old WS4 / I4, make Sarissas let them be able to charge after using Rapid Fire, give them access to power weapon upgrades, for example. There's tons of ways one can do this, really.

I said this once and i'll say it again, celestians are not assault units and should never be. they simply lack the stat line and equipment for it. if you want to make them better at assault do it defensively with rules like counter attack. celestians should be portrayed as they are in the fluff, veteran sister squads with a more tactical mindset. This can be achieved by letting them get a greater range of equipment like the blessed ammunition and perhaps artificer Armour and +1 ballistic skill. this gives them greater tactical flexibility since they can change their ammo on the battle field to deal with specific threats as they arise.

sarissas are chain bayonets attached to the bottom of the bolter, in other words they are basic close combat weapons, think spending two point per model to give them an extra attack in melee

 Vandire651 wrote:
I said this once and i'll say it again, celestians are not assault units and should never be. they simply lack the stat line

They used to have WS4 I4, which alongside acts of faith and their 3+ armor, would make them assault units. They can be again. Living in steadfast denial of this makes your argument laughably unconvincing.

And they definitely should be. They are literally described as the Order's best fighters. What you want them to be is "100% the same as battle sisters, but with fancy wargear". Which is kind of boring. We already have that in Dominions. Celestians need something different.

Also, Sarissas are vicious spiked add-ons that work in place of a bayonet according to most lore. Though that said, the only picture we have of them though makes them look like serrated axe-bayonets; suffice it to say, the lore on them is inconsistent. They could easily use that to justify re-rolling of wounds or the ability to charge after shooting.

 Melissia wrote:

 Vandire651 wrote:
I said this once and i'll say it again, celestians are not assault units and should never be. they simply lack the stat line

They used to have WS4 I4, which alongside acts of faith and their 3+ armor, would make them assault units. They can be again.

And they definitely should be. They are literally described as the Order's best fighters. What you want them to be is "100% the same as battle sisters, but with fancy wargear". Which is kind of boring. We already have that in Dominions. Celestians need something different.

Also, Sarissas are vicious spiked add-ons that work in place of a bayonet. They could easily use that to justify re-rolling of wounds or the ability to charge after shooting.

having WS4 and I4 doesn't help make up for S3, T3, and only 2 attacks, against dedicated assault units like bezerkers or even a standard assault squad they simply don't stand a chance.

celestians are described as the orders best warriors yes, but these doesn't necessarily mean they are close quarter combatants, it is also a tad strange that celestians, after decades of service in line squads focusing on firing bolters and flamers would suddenly switch over to charging the enemy with power weapons in hand. that isn't the purpose they have been trained for and experienced over their decades of service.

I don't want them to be a carbon copy of sister squads. dominion squads are usually armed with only melta guns or maybe flamers and sent in the vanguard to take down assigned threats. this makes them very good at their assigned role but makes them tactically inflexible when their target has been eliminated. celestians however would be able to switch their roles as the match goes on, switching from dragon fire rounds to deal with hordes in cover to vengeance rounds to deal with power armored elites.

the sarrissa is a bayonet, usually a chain bayonet, attached to the bottom of the bolter. imperial guard also has a bayonet at the bottom of their lazguns. some space marines chooce to attach chain bayonets to their bolters, especially traitor legions and loyalists before and during the horus heresy. notice how they don't get rerolling wounds or charge after shooting, they only thing the legions get for grabbing bayonets are an extra close combat weapon

 Vandire651 wrote:
celestians are described as the orders best warriors yes, but these doesn't necessarily mean they are close quarter combatants

It doesn't have to no. But it does mean more than your idea, given that you suggest their only combat prowess over normal Battle Sisters is they get shiny new bullets.

For someone trying to act like a stickler to the lore, you're advocating disregarding old lore and creating new lore so that you can add something quite boring and unimaginative instead in the form of shiny bullets.

 Vandire651 wrote:
the sarrissa is a bayonet, usually a chain bayonet, attached to the bottom of the bolter.

It's a special piece of wargear unique to the Sisters of Battle, which was at one point given special rules letting them reroll to-wound rolls in close combat. At one point, there was no difference between power swords, power axes, and power lances, but now there is. Acting like we can't create some small benefit to Sarissas for Celestians is kind of silly given that you're suggesting brand new rules as it is.

 Melissia wrote:

 Vandire651 wrote:
celestians are described as the orders best warriors yes, but these doesn't necessarily mean they are close quarter combatants

It doesn't have to no. But it does mean more than your idea, given that you suggest their only combat prowess over normal Battle Sisters is they get shiny new bullets.

For someone trying to act like a stickler to the lore, you're advocating disregarding old lore and creating new lore so that you can add something quite boring and unimaginative instead in the form of shiny bullets.

 Vandire651 wrote:
the sarrissa is a bayonet, usually a chain bayonet, attached to the bottom of the bolter.

It's a special piece of wargear unique to the Sisters of Battle, which was at one point given special rules letting them reroll to-wound rolls in close combat. At one point, there was no difference between power swords, power axes, and power lances, but now there is. Acting like we can't create some small benefit to Sarissas for Celestians is kind of silly given that you're suggesting brand new rules as it is.

say that you have a 10 sister celestian squad with WS4 and I4, you load them up with sarrissas and power weapons at 2 points per sarissa and 5 points per power weapon that still ends up as 210 points. a full squad of space marine honor guard spends that much and we both know the honor guard are going to crump the celestians with or without faith. you either give the celestian power axes and go for hand of the emperor, in which case you have the ap and the strength to do damage but you still have T3 and the honor guard strike first. if you go for power maces and the passion you go first, but you now have to go through their artificer Armour and your still T3. trying to make the celestians a dedicated assault unit will simply not work.

if you want to improve the celestians assault game you have to do it defensibly, let the enemy charge you and eat the over watch, if you have to give the sarrissa (which is basically a bayonet, a weapon type that practically every imperial force gets) a special rule make it counter attack to represent the sisters bracing a bayonet line against the heretics, maybe even give them defensive grenades, say it is from the same STC fragments the immolator came from to explain why other imperial forces don't get it.

the point is that I at least don't see the sisters as a generalist army like the space marines, able to both charge into melee or shoot from range. I see them more like storm troopers with better equipment and increased zeal, you don't want to engage in melee, you want to draw out the shooting phase and use assault defensibly.

regarding making celestians unique, other then the above suggestion i have already suggested letting them get artificer Armour, special ammunition and increased BS to represent their years of experience and their elite status within the sisterhood, I've also suggested earlier i this thread to give them precision shot rule to allow them to take out specific threats within enemy squads. also sternguard are regarded as unique from the basic tactical squad and all they have is access to combi-weapons and special ammunition, I think the celestians will be doing fine in the unique department.

 Vandire651 wrote:
regarding making celestians unique, other then the above suggestion i have already suggested letting them get artificer Armour, special ammunition and increased BS to represent their years of experience and their elite status within the sisterhood, I've also suggested earlier i this thread to give them precision shot rule to allow them to take out specific threats within enemy squads. also sternguard are regarded as unique from the basic tactical squad and all they have is access to combi-weapons and special ammunition, I think the celestians will be doing fine in the unique department.

So basically turn them in to sniper squads?

That really doesn't work for a bodyguard unit.

Also? Just because I want Celestians to return to the glory that they used to have doesn't mean I want Sisters to be generalists. Celestians were actually really damned good at close combat until their nerf.

 Melissia wrote:

 Vandire651 wrote:
regarding making celestians unique, other then the above suggestion i have already suggested letting them get artificer Armour, special ammunition and increased BS to represent their years of experience and their elite status within the sisterhood, I've also suggested earlier i this thread to give them precision shot rule to allow them to take out specific threats within enemy squads. also sternguard are regarded as unique from the basic tactical squad and all they have is access to combi-weapons and special ammunition, I think the celestians will be doing fine in the unique department.

So basically turn them in to sniper squads?

That really doesn't work for a bodyguard unit.

Only celestians in the command squad serve as bodyguards, though I admit precision shot is perhaps not the best special rule to apply to the celestians(I was trying to find a way to represent there more tactical mindset)
If you find a better rule for the celestians I am happy to hear suggestions.


P.S sorry for the late reply on the last bit but you finished editing it when I was first replying

 Melissia wrote:


Also? Just because I want Celestians to return to the glory that they used to have doesn't mean I want Sisters to be generalists. Celestians were actually really damned good at close combat until their nerf.

From earlier posts about making celestians dedicated assault units and giving them power swords I made assumptions about your goal regarding celestions, reading back I seems like you are just trying to give them a greater degree of flexibility by letting them take better close combat weapons and upgrading their weapon skill and initiative. For jumping the gun, I apologize.

I would still preach however that celestians should focus on tactical flexibility with a focus on shooting and that if you want to make them good at assault then it should be done by making them better at acting defensibly and absorbing a charge, instead of just giving them all power weapons, artificer armour and master crafted special weapons and calling it a day like hybrid is talking about(if I've got this wrong hybrid, I apologize)

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Hybrid: I'd worry then with power weapons, artificer armour and then loaded up with master crafted range weapons the celestians would come at an unholy points cost. Looking at the history of GW points costs for things such as melta guns, which are a standard price to equip on almost any IoM model, then the points cost for celestians would reach crazy high numbers and at the end of the day they are still a S3 T3 W1 model. Even with a 2+ save I don't think they'd have the survivability to make back the points they'd cost.

So are you saying this solution is bad because if it is badly costed it won't work?

The idea is to have them be both efficient in cc and in shooting. Imagine a squad of Celestian shooting melta at some big tyranid creature, and then charging to finish it off, would that not look very cool?

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
I think my greatest gripe however is that ultimately they would feel bland. Celestians with melta guns? Why not dominions then? Celestians with heavy weapons? Why not retributors instead?

Because of the 2+ armor save and power weapons and all that? Both (heavy) flamers and meltas are assault weapons.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Now celestians with power weapons and artificer armor still has all the drawbacks of current assault rules, delivery method and mobility being two huge ones coupled with S3 T3 W1

Counter-charge unit? And their act of faith can give them the special rule that makes them stand out. Like, say, “ignore invulnerable save” or something.
Also the lack of delivery method can be solved by adding a new fast assault vehicle to the army…

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Hybrid: I'd worry then with power weapons, artificer armour and then loaded up with master crafted range weapons the celestians would come at an unholy points cost. Looking at the history of GW points costs for things such as melta guns, which are a standard price to equip on almost any IoM model, then the points cost for celestians would reach crazy high numbers and at the end of the day they are still a S3 T3 W1 model. Even with a 2+ save I don't think they'd have the survivability to make back the points they'd cost.

So are you saying this solution is bad because if it is badly costed it won't work?

The idea is to have them be both efficient in cc and in shooting. Imagine a squad of Celestian shooting melta at some big tyranid creature, and then charging to finish it off, would that not look very cool?

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
I think my greatest gripe however is that ultimately they would feel bland. Celestians with melta guns? Why not dominions then? Celestians with heavy weapons? Why not retributors instead?

Because of the 2+ armor save and power weapons and all that? Both (heavy) flamers and meltas are assault weapons.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Now celestians with power weapons and artificer armor still has all the drawbacks of current assault rules, delivery method and mobility being two huge ones coupled with S3 T3 W1

Counter-charge unit? And their act of faith can give them the special rule that makes them stand out. Like, say, “ignore invulnerable save” or something.
Also the lack of delivery method can be solved by adding a new fast assault vehicle to the army…

the problem with trying to make celestians good at both assaulting other units and shooting them is that you end up with a unit with a large point cost but can be beaten by dedicated units with relative ease at the same amount of points. like i posted above, 10 celestian squad with 10 power weapons and all artificer Armour, if you say for example that both upgrades are 5 points each then you end up at a point cost of 240, if you give the all melta guns at the current price it will jump to 340 points. a ten man honour guard squad armed with power axes nullify the artificer Armour and is two thirds of the cost, with a better stat line to boot. This means you wouldn't assault them and instead try to kite them with meltas(which would be doomed to fail but moving on), at which point you realize you just spend 50 points giving them power weapons to try and make them decent in assault and then not use them due to being out competed by dedicated melee weapons. the same applies to shooting, where you realize you are doomed in a shooting match and try to assault, which is when you realize you might as well save 100 points by dumping the melta guns making them a dedicated assault unit, which I have shown above will not be able to compete with dedicated assault units any way and still cost more if you keep the artificer Armour.
also, if your idea of how to use them as a counter charge unit then you do realize you would be going up against dedicated melee units which would crump them, and be out ranged by standard bolters due to only having meltas, meaning they will be just standing there being shoot at until a dedicated assault unit comes to wipe them, worse spending of 340 points ever.

finely, while i am all for grabbing a unit cause it's cool, either in the fluff or the model itself, I generally want my army to be mildly competitive.

 Vandire651 wrote:
if you say for example that both upgrades are 5 points each then you end up at a point cost of 240, if you give the all melta guns at the current price it will jump to 340 points.

If those point cost do not work, then change the point costs/

 Vandire651 wrote:
a ten man honour guard squad armed with power axes nullify the artificer Armour and is two thirds of the cost, with a better stat line to boot.

Yeah, but after being master crafted melta away, there will be, what, one or two marine standing? Then charge and wipe the guy out.

 Vandire651 wrote:
the same applies to shooting, where you realize you are doomed in a shooting match and try to assault, which is when you realize you might as well save 100 points by dumping the melta guns making them a dedicated assault unit, which I have shown above will not be able to compete with dedicated assault units any way and still cost more if you keep the artificer Armour.

Are you saying that shooting 10 master-crafted at the unit you are charging is useless?

Seriously, I get that putting heavy bolters/multi-melta and power weapons on the same unit is a waste, because you will use either one or the other. But usually, when you are using melta guns or flamers, you are in charge range. That means you will use both against melee enemy, and you will use both against shooty enemy. Instead of doing all your damage in one phase, you will do it in two phases.

Rule 1 of playing an assault army: If you kill the enemy unit in your assault phase and not theirs, you're doing it wrong.
Rule 2: If you kill enough of them in the shooting phase to make charging highly likely to fail, you're doing it wrong.

10 meltaguns firing first before the charge makes it more likely for you to fail your charge range or more likely to wipe them out before their turn. Either way your unit will get shot to death in the enemy turn.

A unit with 10 power weapons and meltaguns would not only be expensive, their mix of weapons would be a terrible combination in a strategic sense.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Vandire651 wrote:
if you say for example that both upgrades are 5 points each then you end up at a point cost of 240, if you give the all melta guns at the current price it will jump to 340 points.

If those point cost do not work, then change the point costs/

 Vandire651 wrote:
a ten man honour guard squad armed with power axes nullify the artificer Armour and is two thirds of the cost, with a better stat line to boot.

Yeah, but after being master crafted melta away, there will be, what, one or two marine standing? Then charge and wipe the guy out.

 Vandire651 wrote:
the same applies to shooting, where you realize you are doomed in a shooting match and try to assault, which is when you realize you might as well save 100 points by dumping the melta guns making them a dedicated assault unit, which I have shown above will not be able to compete with dedicated assault units any way and still cost more if you keep the artificer Armour.

Are you saying that shooting 10 master-crafted at the unit you are charging is useless?

Seriously, I get that putting heavy bolters/multi-melta and power weapons on the same unit is a waste, because you will use either one or the other. But usually, when you are using melta guns or flamers, you are in charge range. That means you will use both against melee enemy, and you will use both against shooty enemy. Instead of doing all your damage in one phase, you will do it in two phases.

you are seriously suggesting that after giving the celestion master crafted meltas, artificer armour, power weapons and quite possibly ignore invulnerable saves if your past comment was in any way serious. You then make them cheaper to the point where they can match both dedicated shooting units and dedicated assault units point for point. at that point what you have is no longer a balanced unit, you have one of the most overpowered units in the entire game, which can destroy anythiing from primarchs to titans in a single volley of the guns, then charge and expect them to not only come out on top, but to absolutly decimate them. at this point there is no need for any other unit and the entire codex becoumes a question of how many celestians you can pump out.

as for withstanding meltas, that is why you would either charge a weaker unit in first to absorb over watch or get units which can withstand it, like vanguard veterans with storm shields and power axes, which actually adds up to 340 points, the same cost as 10 sister celestians with artificer armour, power weapons and meltas. notice how I didn't mention the meltas being master crafted, that would cost even more points which might even allow the vanguard veterns to equip jump packs.

kiting would also be a major issue since outside of the standard bolter or storm bolter they wouldn't have any long range weapons, just stay 18 inches away from the celestians and the celestians won't be able to do anything, and if they are keeping the 340 point tag or at least something approaching sensible then they will easily be facing enough anti tank fire to dismount them and they would then be focused down with everything the opponent has, as something that powerful simply cannot be allowed to live.

finally, if you have 10 master crafted meltas, why the heck are you using it as an assault unit, i'd just use it as overpowered dominions and forget about giving them power weapons and artificer armour, those are points better spent getting anouther squad of 10 master crafted meltas. charging anything with them would be a waste anyhow outside of cleaning up greatly weakened units after firing, since even with artificer armour and power weapons they still make poor assault units due to having 3S, 3T and 3I.

at this point my only hope is that you are trolling.

 Vandire651 wrote:
You then make them cheaper to the point where they can match both dedicated shooting units and dedicated assault units point for point.

Taking into account that they would deal damage both during the shooting phase and during the close combat phase.

 Vandire651 wrote:
as for withstanding meltas, that is why you would either charge a weaker unit in first to absorb over watch or get units which can withstand it, like vanguard veterans with storm shields and power axes, which actually adds up to 340 points, the same cost as 10 sister celestians with artificer armour, power weapons and meltas.

The same as your made up cost that poped out of nowhere with any playtesting and balancing . Woah. So, there would be counters? Incredible!

I am also at loss at why you insist the only kit possible would be a ten-women squad with only melta…

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Vandire651 wrote:
You then make them cheaper to the point where they can match both dedicated shooting units and dedicated assault units point for point.

Taking into account that they would deal damage both during the shooting phase and during the close combat phase.

 Vandire651 wrote:
as for withstanding meltas, that is why you would either charge a weaker unit in first to absorb over watch or get units which can withstand it, like vanguard veterans with storm shields and power axes, which actually adds up to 340 points, the same cost as 10 sister celestians with artificer armour, power weapons and meltas.

The same as your made up cost that poped out of nowhere with any playtesting and balancing . Woah. So, there would be counters? Incredible!

I am also at loss at why you insist the only kit possible would be a ten-women squad with only melta…

as matt.kingsly explained above, you won't be able to charge after firing your master crafted flamers or meltas since you would kill too many models to make the charge, and if you somehow do make the charge then you would likely kill the extremly weakened squad in a single round, leading to the celestians being out in the open to be focused down by the opposing army, since any unit with 10 master crafted meltas and 10 power weapons simply has to die.

I was using the vanguard veterans as an example of a dedicated assault unit. I was doing so to show how an equel amount of points spent on either a dedicated assault unit or a dedicated shooting unit(plasma guns and laz cannons would make short work of celestians and do it for a much lower point cost) would out compete celestians if you made them a jack of all trades.

the cost I got was by getting the price for a basic 10 sister celestian squad, getting the price of powerswords from the space marine codex, vanguard veteran, then I got the price of the melta from the adepta sororitas codex, this added up to 290. granted I got the price of artificer armour by copying the price of the power sword, but that is also inclueded the price of master crafting the meltas and I had to start from somewhere. this added up to a grand total of 340 points.

you also have to find a way to get your super unit of celestians to the front lines and able to charge, if you take a rhino then you would have to wait a turn to assault, which would never happen due to being shot at by the equivalent of 340 points of dakka, at which point you might as well drop the swords to save points. you could take a land raider but sisters don't get them, you'll have to ally them in at which point you lose another 200 points plus points for allies.

the reason why i am only uses meltas is due to any other option being a waste of points. 10 meltas will kill just about every thing, master crafting them just sweetens the deal. you could get storm bolters but at S4 and ap5 they just don't have the omph needed, flamers are another option but they also lack the strength and ap needed and changes charging from extremely improbable to a flat out impossibility, it also makes power swords redundant as no one will willing charge 10 master crafted flamers

 Vandire651 wrote:
I was doing so to show how an equel amount of points spent on either a dedicated assault unit or a dedicated shooting unit(plasma guns and laz cannons would make short work of celestians and do it for a much lower point cost) would out compete celestians if you made them a jack of all trades.

So, you are saying that dedicated assault unit will beat a mixed unit in close combat and a dedicated shooting unit will beat a mixed unit in a shooting contest. Yeah, but the mixed unit will beat the close combat unit in shooting, and will beat the dedicated shooting unit in close combat. So…

 Vandire651 wrote:
the cost I got was by getting the price for a basic 10 sister celestian squad, getting the price of powerswords from the space marine codex, vanguard veteran, then I got the price of the melta from the adepta sororitas codex, this added up to 290. granted I got the price of artificer armour by copying the price of the power sword, but that is also inclueded the price of master crafting the meltas and I had to start from somewhere. this added up to a grand total of 340 points.

In other word, just hokus pokus costing rather than trying to get a balanced cost.
No surprise it does not work.

 Vandire651 wrote:
you also have to find a way to get your super unit of celestians to the front lines and able to charge

Do you mean like they could add new vehicles at the same time they change the Celestians?

 Vandire651 wrote:
the reason why i am only uses meltas is due to any other option being a waste of points.

Why do you assume no bolters? Why do you assume 10-women squads?
10 meltas seems quite a bit overkill to me. How often do you want to shoot 10 melta at the same target…

 Vandire651 wrote:
flamers are another option but they also lack the strength and ap needed and changes charging from extremely improbable to a flat out impossibility

Yeah, the way the charge rules are written make this very hard but it sucks…

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Vandire651 wrote:
I was doing so to show how an equel amount of points spent on either a dedicated assault unit or a dedicated shooting unit(plasma guns and laz cannons would make short work of celestians and do it for a much lower point cost) would out compete celestians if you made them a jack of all trades.

So, you are saying that dedicated assault unit will beat a mixed unit in close combat and a dedicated shooting unit will beat a mixed unit in a shooting contest. Yeah, but the mixed unit will beat the close combat unit in shooting, and will beat the dedicated shooting unit in close combat. So…

 Vandire651 wrote:
the cost I got was by getting the price for a basic 10 sister celestian squad, getting the price of powerswords from the space marine codex, vanguard veteran, then I got the price of the melta from the adepta sororitas codex, this added up to 290. granted I got the price of artificer armour by copying the price of the power sword, but that is also inclueded the price of master crafting the meltas and I had to start from somewhere. this added up to a grand total of 340 points.

In other word, just hokus pokus costing rather than trying to get a balanced cost.
No surprise it does not work.

 Vandire651 wrote:
you also have to find a way to get your super unit of celestians to the front lines and able to charge

Do you mean like they could add new vehicles at the same time they change the Celestians?

 Vandire651 wrote:
the reason why i am only uses meltas is due to any other option being a waste of points.

Why do you assume no bolters? Why do you assume 10-women squads?
10 meltas seems quite a bit overkill to me. How often do you want to shoot 10 melta at the same target…

 Vandire651 wrote:
flamers are another option but they also lack the strength and ap needed and changes charging from extremely improbable to a flat out impossibility

Yeah, the way the charge rules are written make this very hard but it sucks…

if i want to kill a dedicated assault unit at range I do so with a dedicated shooting unit, vice versa for dealing with a dedicated shooting unit. a mixed role unit will be shoot off the board by a dedicated shooting unit and assaulted to death by a dedicated assault unit which is designed to withstand a greater amount of shooting by a dedicated shooting unit then a mixed unit could ever hope to put out. in other words if i want to deal damage at range, I do it with a unit meant specifically for shooting, same for assault, I do not a unit meant to do both in a half competent manner

i agree that the point costing is a tad hockus pocus, but i had to start from somewhere and games workshop tends to keep the point cost for upgrades similar from codex to codex. also a 5 man squad of celestians with meltas costs 120 points at the current pricing, a dominion squad with 5 meltas costs 115. this means that dominions are not only cheaper but also more able to do their role due to having the scout rule. this means while dominions can deploy after the enemy deploys and do a turn 1 alpha strike with a 12 inch scout, 6 inch move, 6 inch deploy from transport and 12 inch shooting, totaling a 36 threat range, the celestians are stuck with a 24 inch threat range, at which point they are shoot off the board due to not getting in range of the opponent fast enough to shoot them first turn and the opponent focusing them down due to the threat they represent.

in other words they are sub standard dominions except they have power swords, which they will never use effectively due to lack of an assault vehicle, wiping out to many enemy models with their master crafted meltas/flamers meaning they can't make the charge and finally no one being stupid enough to charge them except with a dedicated assault unit which would crump them. their only value is their artificer armour, everything else they either cannot do or dominions do it better

regarding the use of bolters, standard bolters are rapid fire meaning they can't charge after shooting, storm bolters are better, but with a total of 20 shoots per 10 sister celestian squads, they will either do enough damage to hordes to make you unable to make the charge, or you are dealing with elites like termenators, in which case meltas are better. meltas also have greater versetility in being able to take care of tanks.



if I want a 5 sister squad with meltas I will go with dominions, dominions are cheaper and more focused to the role with the scout rule

I really feel like rather than trying to see if we could make this work and how, you are 100% focusing on “Let's imagine one specific version and show how it can never be useful”…

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I really feel like rather than trying to see if we could make this work and how, you are 100% focusing on “Let's imagine one specific version and show how it can never be useful”…

I just don't want celestians to become either generalist super unit which can deal with anything you throw at them, or dominions with artificer armour.

as for my take on celestians, the above argument I had with Melissa already under lines my suggestion. basically celestians should be of a more tactical mindset, able to deal with various threats as they arise on the battle field. you can give them special ammunition to represent this as well as artificer armour to help show how they are the elite of the sisterhood, wearing only the finest armour they have available. if you want them to be better at the assault game you don't do it by giving them all power weapons, instead you make them better at acting defensivly and absorbing the charge. you can achieve this by allowing them to take sarissas which grant an extra close combat weapon and the counter attack special rule for around 2 points, hell why you are at it why not let the superior take a defensive grenade, say it is a relic found on the same STC fragments that the immolator and exorcist came from.

 Vandire651 wrote:
basically celestians should be of a more tactical mindset, able to deal with various threats as they arise on the battle field.

So rather than being generalists, they are instead tactically minded and able to deal with various threat as they arise on the battlefield…

Also why do you want them to be defensive?


I think sarissa needs new models to work. Here, with the current model… well, it does not even exist, and given that most weapons have literally no special rules, they need to look impressive to give a special bonus! Frankly, if it is going to be defensive, I'd rather have them use mini-flamethrower under the bolter that can only shoot as overwatch and do one hit.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Vandire651 wrote:
basically celestians should be of a more tactical mindset, able to deal with various threats as they arise on the battle field.

So rather than being generalists, they are instead tactically minded and able to deal with various threat as they arise on the battlefield…

Also why do you want them to be defensive?


I think sarissa needs new models to work. Here, with the current model… well, it does not even exist, and given that most weapons have literally no special rules, they need to look impressive to give a special bonus! Frankly, if it is going to be defensive, I'd rather have them use mini-flamethrower under the bolter that can only shoot as overwatch and do one hit.

to quote myself from the earlier conversation with Melissa on the previous page

 Vandire651 wrote:

the point is that I at least don't see the sisters as a generalist army like the space marines, able to both charge into melee or shoot from range. I see them more like storm troopers with better equipment and increased zeal, you don't want to engage in melee, you want to draw out the shooting phase and use assault defensibly.

the sarrissa is a chain bayonet attached to the bottom of the bolter, the counter attack rule is meant to represent the sisters bracing into a bayonet line to absorb the charge.

I know what a sarissa is. The thing is, it is definitely less efficient than a plain chainsword, so why give it better rules?

And I would like my Sisters to have some melee unit. I guess that is the real reason why you are trying to bash my suggestions. Not crunch reasons, just that you dislike it from a flavor point of view. Then please do not disguise this as crunch.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I know what a sarissa is. The thing is, it is definitely less efficient than a plain chainsword, so why give it better rules?

And I would like my Sisters to have some melee unit. I guess that is the real reason why you are trying to bash my suggestions. Not crunch reasons, just that you dislike it from a flavor point of view. Then please do not disguise this as crunch.

it's more of a crunch issue regarding the power swords then a flavor issue. power swords have always been the mark of a dedicated assault unit or character, giving them to a mixed unit just feels out of place to me. making celestians a dedicated assault unit doesn't work due to their stat line with having 3S, 3T and 3I. you could theoretically increase their stat line, especially with regard to initiative, but at that point their stat line no longer represents relatively normal human beings, they are space marine stats. that said I won't lie and claim it is purely crunch, I would prefer the sisters of battle remain a shooty army and not a choopy one, but that is just my opinion.

if you do want an assault unit, I would recommend focusing on the seraphim rather then the celestians, the seraphim have a jump pack to grant them hammer of wrath and they also have two close combat weapons in the form of bolt pistols and the hit and run rule. all that is needed to make them an acceptable assault unit is upgrading their initiative to a 4 and allowing them to exchange their attacks in order to make two attacks using the profile of their two pistols. this will mean that their basic attack would hit at strength 4 and inferno pistols at a monsterous S8 AP 1. regarding flame pistols, i would either make it so they do D3 attacks or just the one

it also fits more in line with the fluff due to both the seraphim and the celestians being veterns, the difference being that the seraphim are the exceedingly faithful veterans who train in the use of duel bolt pistols in close combat, usually in the form of point blank head-shoots, while the celestians are the more tactically minded and pragmatic veterans, hence why the orders cannoness and palatines are drawn from the celestians

Above discussion demonstrates why they won't necessarily do it, and why they haven't done it. For alot of effort you would be alienating at least half the fanboi sisters players with every decision. So they cba. Which is understandable

 ntdars wrote:
After seeing how successful the AdMech releases were, I can only imagine that any Sisters of Battle casts would sell insanely well. What do you think GW's reasoning is behind them not printing a whole army update (Dark Eldar is another great example)

People are going to jump down my throat here for this, but I have always noticed GW really has always had something against female miniatures, aside from DE, CWE and SOB. They really don't have any other 40K female models, In other armies to talk about or worth mentioning. I honestly think the are sexist.

thanks to other vendors there are plenty of female IG/AM around

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I really feel like rather than trying to see if we could make this work and how, you are 100% focusing on “Let's imagine one specific version and show how it can never be useful”…

That's exactly what he's doing. He refuses to imagine a points cost other than his own, because otherwise his entire argument would fall apart liek the house of rotting cards that it is.

Hell, we could always just give Celestians Sarissas for free. Make them "reroll to-wound rolls when charging or when charged". Boom, it's useful both in a shooting context and in a melee context, especially when combined with WS4/I4. Celestians don't need to be just some lame-ass short-ranged snipers that Vandire's trying to make them be.

 Melissia wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I really feel like rather than trying to see if we could make this work and how, you are 100% focusing on “Let's imagine one specific version and show how it can never be useful”…

That's exactly what he's doing. He refuses to imagine a points cost other than his own, because otherwise his entire argument would fall apart liek the house of rotting cards that it is.

Hell, we could always just give Celestians Sarissas for free. Make them "reroll to-wound rolls when charging or when charged". Boom, it's useful both in a shooting context and in a melee context, especially when combined with WS4/I4. Celestians don't need to be just some lame-ass short-ranged snipers that Vandire's trying to make them be.

I have nothing against the idea of giving celestians sarissas for free, the problem I am having is giving the all power weapons and master crafted special weapons.

I actually think that the sarissas are a good idea and while re roll to wound would be bit redundant due to priests rolling for war hymns it is better then nothing. While your at it why not let the basic sister squad take them as well. Of course the design should be changed slightly to justify why sisters get spiecal rules like reroll to wound while all the legion list gets is an extra attack. I also wouldn't mind letting celestians start with sarissas for free.

I admit that precision shot is perhaps not the best rule to apply to celestians(I was trying to find a way to represent their tactical mindset at the time and didn't think it through properly) if you can find a better rule for them I am open to suggestions.

Vandire is right, this is GW whe're talking about here and they price almost all wargear statically.

There is one unit in the game that can upgrade their melee weapons at a reduced cost to every other unit in the game, and that unit is Vanguard Veterans. Even then they only get a 5 point discount.
There is no way in heaven or hell that GW will change this just for Sisters. Now, if they made Celestians a dual unit kit with some new melee-focused unit that has power weapons by default you'd most likely get a more affordable melee unit points-wise.
SM Honour Guard get cheap power weapons because they start with them as base wargear. If they started with chainswords and had to upgrade like Vanguard Veterans they'd cost way more. Such is GWs stupid points system...

 Vandire651 wrote:
the problem I am having is giving the all power weapons and master crafted special weapons.

I never suggested either of those. I suggested giving htem access to power weapons, but never said ALL of them should get them. And I never mentioned master-crafted things, that was someone else. what I had in mind was more along the lines of "up to two Celestians can purchase a power weapon", alongside "up to two Celestians can purchase a special or heavy weapon", letting the player determine how they want to build the squad's equipment but not letting them go overboard-- at most, two Celestians with special weapons and three with power weapons, including the Superior.

 Vandire651 wrote:
priests rolling for war hymns

Sisters shouldn't have to take priests in order to function properly.

 Vandire651 wrote:
While your at it why not let the basic sister squad take them as well.

I wouldn't object, but my main focus is making Celestians good again. Battle Sisters Squads are actually already in a fairly decent place and I don't want to touch them too much except in terms of what they can do in Acts of Faith.

 Vandire651 wrote:
Of course the design should be changed slightly to justify why sisters get spiecal rules like reroll to wound while all the legion list gets is an extra attack. I also wouldn't mind letting celestians start with sarissas for free.

Why would it matter what the Legion list gets or doesn't 'get? They're not Sisters. The internal balance of the Sisters codex requires things that don't make any sense to do in a Legion list, and vice versa.

 Vandire651 wrote:
I admit that precision shot is perhaps not the best rule to apply to celestians(I was trying to find a way to represent their tactical mindset at the time and didn't think it through properly) if you can find a better rule for them I am open to suggestions.

I do.

Give up on trying to make them uberspecialawesome ranged attackers. Make them good ranged attackers who also are a decent melee unit, able to destroy ranged attackers and at least tie up or countercharge melee attackers. That's far more valuable to Sisters. The best we have for melee is repentia, and they're a berserker unit that's kind of fragile but hits hard if it doesn't get wiped out first. Celestians could easily be far more of a tarpit than them, especially with acts of faith. In fact, Celestians in 3rd edition were one of the best tarpit units in the game, because of the 2+ invulnerable save act of faith and their WS4/I4. This in spite of them being only T3. True, the game has changed since then, but the thing is, I'm not saying Celestians need to dominate the battlefield as a melee unit. They just need to open up more tactical options than just "this unit shoots hard, and this one shoots REALLY hard".

We're Imperials, not Tau.

 Melissia wrote:

 Vandire651 wrote:
the problem I am having is giving the all power weapons and master crafted special weapons.

I never suggested either of those. I suggested giving htem access to power weapons, but never said ALL of them should get them. And I never mentioned master-crafted things, that was someone else. what I had in mind was more along the lines of "up to two Celestians can purchase a power weapon", alongside "up to two Celestians can purchase a special or heavy weapon", letting the player determine how they want to build the squad's equipment but not letting them go overboard-- at most, two Celestians with special weapons and three with power weapons, including the Superior.

 Vandire651 wrote:
priests rolling for war hymns

Sisters shouldn't have to take priests in order to function properly.

 Vandire651 wrote:
While your at it why not let the basic sister squad take them as well.

I wouldn't object, but my main focus is making Celestians good again. Battle Sisters Squads are actually already in a fairly decent place and I don't want to touch them too much except in terms of what they can do in Acts of Faith.

 Vandire651 wrote:
Of course the design should be changed slightly to justify why sisters get spiecal rules like reroll to wound while all the legion list gets is an extra attack. I also wouldn't mind letting celestians start with sarissas for free.

Why would it matter what the Legion list gets or doesn't 'get? They're not Sisters. The internal balance of the Sisters codex requires things that don't make any sense to do in a Legion list, and vice versa.

 Vandire651 wrote:
I admit that precision shot is perhaps not the best rule to apply to celestians(I was trying to find a way to represent their tactical mindset at the time and didn't think it through properly) if you can find a better rule for them I am open to suggestions.

I do.

Give up on trying to make them uberspecialawesome ranged attackers. Make them good ranged attackers who also are a decent melee unit, able to destroy ranged attackers and at least tie up or countercharge melee attackers. That's far more valuable to Sisters. The best we have for melee is repentia, and they're a berserker unit that's kind of fragile but hits hard if it doesn't get wiped out first. Celestians could easily be far more of a tarpit than them, especially with acts of faith. In fact, Celestians in 3rd edition were one of the best tarpit units in the game, because of the 2+ invulnerable save act of faith and their WS4/I4. This in spite of them being only T3. True, the game has changed since then, but the thing is, I'm not saying Celestians need to dominate the battlefield as a melee unit. They just need to open up more tactical options than just "this unit shoots hard, and this one shoots REALLY hard".

I wouldn't mind letting celestian squads take two power weapons to increase their tactical flexibility, I was talking earlier regarding hybrids idea, not yours. Also it seems you didn't bother reading the response I gave at the end of our previous discussion

 Vandire651 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:


Also? Just because I want Celestians to return to the glory that they used to have doesn't mean I want Sisters to be generalists. Celestians were actually really damned good at close combat until their nerf.

From earlier posts about making celestians dedicated assault units and giving them power swords I made assumptions about your goal regarding celestions, reading back I seems like you are just trying to give them a greater degree of flexibility by letting them take better close combat weapons and upgrading their weapon skill and initiative. For jumping the gun, I apologize.

I would still preach however that celestians should focus on tactical flexibility with a focus on shooting and that if you want to make them good at assault then it should be done by making them better at acting defensibly and absorbing a charge, instead of just giving them all power weapons, artificer armour and master crafted special weapons and calling it a day like hybrid is talking about(if I've got this wrong hybrid, I apologize)

Sorry for missing a huge chunk of this convo but I'll try and clarify my stance here a bit.

First of all I have no problems with celestians being an assault unit, my concerns were only that unless they got significant changes beyond wargear they wouldn't be able to do it effectively and that compared to the blessed ammunition idea the melee variant seemed boring to me, that was my opinion. Adding a new assault transport (and not a land raider because those are way too expensive and too much of an investment for a passable melee unit) had not been mentioned yet and so it was not something a had considered. If they had access to jump packs or a viable assault transport then that solves the delivery method problem. They need something that makes up for S3 T3, striking scorpions come base at S4 thanks to their weapons and they have a great number of attacks including one that auto-wounds anything on a 4+ at I10. Howling banshees deny overwatch and come base with dual power swords for a good bargain and they have great mobility for a foot slogging unit.

I mentioned the points cost for the clestians loadout for melee and that concern was from my opinion that GW would not likely put a fair point cost on them. There is a breaking point where the unit would be worth taking for their points but I don't know what that is.

Matt Kingsley hit the nail on the head concerning wargear though. Giving the squad tons of options for wargear such as melta guns or flamers and such would get very expensive very fast. GW prices these weapons statically, they cost the same for anyone to take, whereas if a weapons is part of your basic loadout they tend to be cheaper. If clestians are to be a generalist melee/ranged unit then I think they would be best served having a static loadout with artificer armor, power weapon and combi-weapon or something. Maybe a special bolter? Oh and a bolt pistol for +1 A to offset for S3. Then they could be fairly costed as a unit and PPM and since you're not tacking on weapon options that cost 1/2 the points of the model they are equipped to the cost of the unti can be equal to it's effectiveness (theoretically speaking). they'd still need a delivery method or boost to mobility somehow.

I agree with Vandire though on a few points, one of which I'll mention here. Generalist run into a problem against focus units. In this case our generalist Celestians wouldn't be able to take on a dedicated melee unit of equal points cost in CC and likely wouldn't be able to shoot them off the table sufficiently to save their butts if they get assaulted. Likewise they don't have the ranged firepower to shoot against dedicated ranged units and don't have the built in mobility to get to those units to hurt them in melee (or by the time they get there so many of them are shot to death that there isn't enough o win in assault). Could they be given the special rules and equipment to do both effectively and be worth their points? Absolutely, but this is a precarious balancing act and I'm not sure if GW is up to task on this.

Another issue I have with the melee loadout with ranged weapon options is that it would make sense to give them all the same weapon to focus a target, all flamers or all meltas. Truth be told I find this boring because we already have dominions that we use in this manner, they just lack the melee option. I say if we make celestians a melee unit then that should be what they're good at and should be focused on it, if we make them a ranged unit then give them fun ranged weapons rules that distinguish them from dominions, retributors and BSS.

At the end of the day I suppose I don't care what GW does to celestians as long as they:
A) Make them a unique unit from other units in the codex
B) Make them fun to use
C) Make them effective at what they should be doing so they are a desirable addition to the codex.

melee or shooting or generalist as long as they tick those three boxes I'll be happy. I feel a good example of this is perhaps all the different aspect warriors in the CWE codex. They fill a role unique to themselves, do it effectively and each unit has one rule for the unit that is unique and one rule for the exarch that is unique. I find this to be a good example of codex writing (balance aside for the sake of this convo, note I'm not talking about jetbikes or wraithknights, just the aspect warriors).

 Vandire651 wrote:
making celestians a dedicated assault unit doesn't work due to their stat line with having 3S, 3T and 3I. you could theoretically increase their stat line, especially with regard to initiative, but at that point their stat line no longer represents relatively normal human beings, they are space marine stats.

There are many ways around this using special rules and special wargear…

 Vandire651 wrote:
that said I won't lie and claim it is purely crunch, I would prefer the sisters of battle remain a shooty army and not a choopy one, but that is just my opinion.

While I would rather the focus of the army stays on shooting, I would not mind having a few melee units.

 Vandire651 wrote:
if you do want an assault unit, I would recommend focusing on the seraphim rather then the celestians

Well, the Seraphim already have a strong identity that works pretty well (and that I really, really find badass). It already sets them apart both from other Sisters, and from their marines equivalent. Turning them into a melee unit would make them loose flavor and seem like a copy-paste of assault marines.
Celestians, though, for the moment do not have a strong identity that sets them apart…


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Vandire is right, this is GW whe're talking about here and they price almost all wargear statically.

There is one unit in the game that can upgrade their melee weapons at a reduced cost to every other unit in the game, and that unit is Vanguard Veterans. Even then they only get a 5 point discount.

So, you are saying they should add the power weapon right in the profile, like they do with DCA. I would be okay with this.

If they had access to jump packs or a viable assault transport then that solves the delivery method problem

Dominica-Pattern Drop Pod

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Vandire651 wrote:
if you do want an assault unit, I would recommend focusing on the seraphim rather then the celestians

Well, the Seraphim already have a strong identity that works pretty well (and that I really, really find badass). It already sets them apart both from other Sisters, and from their marines equivalent. Turning them into a melee unit would make them loose flavor and seem like a copy-paste of assault marines.
Celestians, though, for the moment do not have a strong identity that sets them apart…

So much this. Seraphim are Seraphim, they are dual pistol wielding jump packers who are more divinely blessed and know gun fu. They're actually completely unique in this regard, in 40k at least (Star Craft's Reapers eventually adopted the same idea).

Celestians, on the other hand, started out as "Seraphim with bolters instead of jump packs and bolt pistols", then turned into "Better Battle Sisters", then wobbled around "Assaulty Battle Sisters" and are now "Expensive Battle Sisters who can pretend to be slightly gakker Assault Marines". They don't have an identity and that's why in every edition they have sucked.

Maybe allowing Seraphim to shoot in close combat instead of making melee attacks would be an improvement?

Yes and no. It's an improvement in the sense “it makes them most powerful”. In term of flavor, it does not change their role. Fly around some unit, shoot at it, eventually charge it depending on how much hurt it can put on you and how likely you are to damage it, else be charged, then hit and run away to start shooting at something else.

 Vandire651 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Also? Just because I want Celestians to return to the glory that they used to have doesn't mean I want Sisters to be generalists. Celestians were actually really damned good at close combat until their nerf.

I would still preach however that celestians should focus on tactical flexibility with a focus on shooting and that if you want to make them good at assault then it should be done by making them better at acting defensibly and absorbing a charge, instead of just giving them all power weapons, artificer armour and master crafted special weapons and calling it a day like hybrid is talking about(if I've got this wrong hybrid, I apologize)

The thing is, my idea makes them better defensively, too. So I honestly didn't see a reason to include a response to this bit. For example, sarissas giving to-wound rerolls on the charge-- or when receiving one. Compounding what I have suggested, they will have two attacks per model at WS4/I4, up to three models with power weapons (including the superior), overwatch with up to two special weapons, to-wound rerolls on their melee attacks for all members that don't have a power weapon, and all of this with the addition of acts of faith, letting htem get other bonuses such as invulnerable saves, or even higher initiative, or higher strength, depending on what is done with AoFs. This is not a broken unit. But it's not a bad unit, either.