Daemons and CSM used to all be rolled into one book so it's not a stretch to ally them together now.

As stated, that's very legion dependent. And meta dependent. A lot of the older metas still frown on things like allies and formations, since they are relatively new and blamed for the unbalanced state of the game.

Akiasura wrote:
As stated, that's very legion dependent. And meta dependent. A lot of the older metas still frown on things like allies and formations, since they are relatively new and blamed for the unbalanced state of the game.

but if we are blaming unbalance on relatively new things then perhaps chaos suffers unbalance because of the relatively new split they had into daemons and marines?

nareik wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
As stated, that's very legion dependent. And meta dependent. A lot of the older metas still frown on things like allies and formations, since they are relatively new and blamed for the unbalanced state of the game.

but if we are blaming unbalance on relatively new things then perhaps chaos suffers unbalance because of the relatively new split they had into daemons and marines?

That's certainly part of it. Chaos has been on a severe downwards trend since the 3.5 dex, which did allow demon summoning. It was an incredibly fluffy option, although it did promote a strong build (siren bomb).

But to be clear, when I said unbalance I was speaking towards the game state, not chaos in particular. I should have been more clear considering the topic of discussion.

Don't worry, you were understood perfectly, I just chose to use the word again but in a different context to show unbalance runs both ways, so creating general rules (like 'no allies') punishes weaker options more than the stronger options which are already strong before adding further synergies.

It's like how WHFB tournaments used to say 'no double rares' when they meant no double steam tanks/abominations/hydras... sure those things were powerful, but what about weaker rares like giants which really needed to be doubled up on to have sufficient saturation to even get into combat.

I really don't like unnecessarily generic and arbitrary house rules against all large grey animals when we all know the elephant in the room. Think of the rhinos!

Well if you think about it in those terms, the traitor legions lost a feth load when they split from the Imperium. Ie, Mechanicum support and resources, loyalty and back up from other Astartes groups and majority of the Imperial Guard/Army. With that in mind it really is Daemons and Chaos that's holding the traitors up to the Loyalists, fluffwise. A lot of their gear is outdated, or developed after their betrayal, such as Centurians or Stormravens for example. In that sense, those Legions should be requiring Daemonic assistance to take loyalists on. Look at which legions have the most power in the setting. Black Legion and Word Bearers, which have Daemonic assistance. The other legions like World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Emperor's Children are all upgraded by their god with enhanced toughness, berserker fury or speed in some form or another. Iron Warriors rely on vehicles but are matched by loyalist who have not only Vindicators, Predators and Land Raiders but also support from Imperial Guard and new designs like Crusader or Hunter/Stalkers. Alpha Legion don't really do upfront assault and Night Lords don't even have a Primarch or Abaddon to lead them so their pretty on-par with Loyalists.

Daemons and Chaos power is what gives Chaos an edge.

nareik wrote:
Don't worry, you were understood perfectly, I just chose to use the word again but in a different context to show unbalance runs both ways, so creating general rules (like 'no allies') punishes weaker options more than the stronger options which are already strong before adding further synergies.

It's like how WHFB tournaments used to say 'no double rares' when they meant no double steam tanks/abominations/hydras... sure those things were powerful, but what about weaker rares like giants which really needed to be doubled up on to have sufficient saturation to even get into combat.

I really don't like unnecessarily generic and arbitrary house rules against all large grey animals when we all know the elephant in the room. Think of the rhinos!

Huh, I don't remember the double rares. I ran multiple hydras for a while, never ran into an issue with it at a tournament. What edition was this?

Allies pretty much benefit every army and push them to crazy levels. There are a few that don't do this, Necrons and Nids mainly, but for a long time most of the competitive armies used allies (DA w/IG for a IG blob, Baron in an Eldar list, Inquisition everywhere). I don't think the game was ever designed with allies in mind, and it really shows.
Even daemons benefit from a few CSM models. Granted, very few, but still. It's not really needed.

Formations are even more out of control. While some are okay, and some problems aren't related to formations (deathstars mainly), most of the power armies have at least 1 formation that make them go from good to great, while those that don't are sitting there collecting dust.

Removal of GMC, Formations, Grav Weapons, D weapons, Invisibility, and Allies outside of few exceptions (some codexes are obvious supplements) does a lot to improve the game. It's not perfect, but its certainly better than where it is now.

Discount dreadclaw = buy a drop pod and turn the fins upside down then stick icons and spikes all over it.

Too bad though it is much more expensive points wise than a normal drop pod.

 Deadshot wrote:
Well if you think about it in those terms, the traitor legions lost a feth load when they split from the Imperium. Ie, Mechanicum support and resources, loyalty and back up from other Astartes groups and majority of the Imperial Guard/Army. With that in mind it really is Daemons and Chaos that's holding the traitors up to the Loyalists, fluffwise. A lot of their gear is outdated, or developed after their betrayal, such as Centurians or Stormravens for example. In that sense, those Legions should be requiring Daemonic assistance to take loyalists on. Look at which legions have the most power in the setting. Black Legion and Word Bearers, which have Daemonic assistance. The other legions like World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Emperor's Children are all upgraded by their god with enhanced toughness, berserker fury or speed in some form or another. Iron Warriors rely on vehicles but are matched by loyalist who have not only Vindicators, Predators and Land Raiders but also support from Imperial Guard and new designs like Crusader or Hunter/Stalkers. Alpha Legion don't really do upfront assault and Night Lords don't even have a Primarch or Abaddon to lead them so their pretty on-par with Loyalists.

Daemons and Chaos power is what gives Chaos an edge.

I don't disagree with your assessment. This is an issue of the way GW chooses to write the codex. The codex is basically written like no Space marines have fallen to Chaos since the heresy or, if they have, they just dropped all of their new fangled equipment, I guess because it's missing the spikes. The second problem with the way the book is written is the assumption that the Chaos forces wouldn't see all the new stuff their counterparts were developing and wouldn't make any upgrades or new equipment of their own or commandeer some after a battle.......

One of the great things about FW now is they have all the Chaos equivalents for the most part.

CSM and daemons naturally go together and actually lots of armies can summons now. From a background pov is perfectly okay for CSM to summons.

Konrax wrote:Just compare possessed to the new Wolfen units then lets continue this discussion.

Yeah, they don't grenades, buts thats okay, you can buy them a grenade launcher and they count as having grenades.
They have AP2 Str+1 LC's..., yeah they really needed this.
That ridiculous Axe that gives +3Str and strike at Init 5 the turn they assault?...hahaha...
And since when does SW do in mutations?, i mean cal me crazy but that thing about the Wulfen curse and the 2 random charts?..., and they get all sweet as feth bonuses...

HoundsofDemos wrote:I think we can divide this into two views.

Those that feel that via allies and forgeworld that Chaos as an over all faction is fine.

and Those that are upset that Codex Chaos Space marine has become Codex Nurgle.

If your a thousand suns, undivided or Slanneesh player I feel so hard for you because your book doesn't work

Thats something that people are missing, there is the Chaos faction, like IoM faction, but the Poster child for Chaos Faction, Chaos Space Marines, are nowhere close to Space Marines, so you basically have like 6 to 8 factions in IoM and apart 3 of them( BA's, IG's and Sistas) the rest works marvelous.

Then you have Chaos faction with 2 books that works (Deamons and KDK, and its really depending on the lists used) and then CSM and his childs are like, some kind of dirty red head that no one wants to come close or touche, even with a 20feet pole..., then you have IA 13 and Vraks that is also highly dependend on the lists and units you use, so it can range from mediocre to awesome.

Dozer Blades wrote:Daemons and CSM used to all be rolled into one book so it's not a stretch to ally them together now.

Yeah but at the time Bloodletters had T4, fearless, Str5 3+ save and could assault the turn they where summoned, BT's where fething Str8 and had 4++ save with their 3+, Deamons where very different then now, and you had somekind of synergie between Marines and Deamons.

At the time i always had at least one unit of letters, and i always was playing either a BT or a Dprince, now?, its been since 4th that i don't use DPrinces or BT's and Letters are only when i need a 80pts unit to fill a gap in my list.

I don't expect Letters to become the murderers they where back then, i know it will not happen, since GW decided that Deamons should be a cheap rip off of Nids without anything cool( for the few cool things that Nids have at least).

But at least give BT's their dignity back with their Str 8?, its the only model in the game that had a high native Str since RT, and for some reason they nerfed it to Str6, why?, because Imperial players where fed up to loose their Chaper Masters and IC's from a Str 8 strike, thats why.

The most Bad Ass and Ripp of all Greater Deamons only has 1 point of Strenght higher then Posseseds and DPrinces, but on the other hand you have LoS that can go all Shaolin style with their staffs and have Str8?...

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

The most Bad Ass and Ripp of all Greater Deamons only has 1 point of Strenght higher then Posseseds and DPrinces, but on the other hand you have LoS that can go all Shaolin style with their staffs and have Str8?...

lmao, exalted for truth ^^

 Deadshot wrote:
Well if you think about it in those terms, the traitor legions lost a feth load when they split from the Imperium. Ie, Mechanicum support and resources, loyalty and back up from other Astartes groups and majority of the Imperial Guard/Army. With that in mind it really is Daemons and Chaos that's holding the traitors up to the Loyalists, fluffwise. A lot of their gear is outdated, or developed after their betrayal, such as Centurians or Stormravens for example. In that sense, those Legions should be requiring Daemonic assistance to take loyalists on. Look at which legions have the most power in the setting. Black Legion and Word Bearers, which have Daemonic assistance. The other legions like World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Emperor's Children are all upgraded by their god with enhanced toughness, berserker fury or speed in some form or another. Iron Warriors rely on vehicles but are matched by loyalist who have not only Vindicators, Predators and Land Raiders but also support from Imperial Guard and new designs like Crusader or Hunter/Stalkers. Alpha Legion don't really do upfront assault and Night Lords don't even have a Primarch or Abaddon to lead them so their pretty on-par with Loyalists.

Daemons and Chaos power is what gives Chaos an edge.

I'm sorry but this just plain wrong, and yet again, highlights the sheer hypocrisy of the Loyalist fan base...

Yes, the Traitor Legions lost their original support bases when they fled to the Eye. But, half the entire ****ing IoM went rogue with them!
We had millions of traitor Imperial Army units and their entire mobile support staff, the Dark Mechanicus who fled Mars, vast parts of entire star systems (including whole Forgeworlds) who packed up and fled as well, etc... All these assets either set-up within the Eye itself, or else scattered across the broken Imperium to form outlying stronghold within wilderness space.
Even within the Eye itself, there are entire Daemon worlds that are chaotic version of Imperial forgeworlds, whole planets of mutants & human renegades. Dark pacts are constantly sworn between the likes of the Dark Mechanicus or Fabius Bile to keep the Traitor Legions and various Chaos warbands well supplied.

This entire idea that Chaos Marines should have no toys of their own because, "lols, you guys left the Imperium" is just BS.

Look at the Iron Warriors daemonworld of Medrengard: the entire planet is pretty much just one massive series of fortress after fortress (each ruled by a Warsmith, who in turn still owes fealty to Purterabo), and these fortresses do nothing but churn out wargear, war machines & new potential Marines every single day!
And that's just ONE daemonworld.

If anything, Chaos should have bucketloads more unique and weird warp-fueled toys than Imperials, because the Imperium has stagnated and regressed for nearly 10,000 years
But nope, instead we have Imperials who are constantly "discovering" new (but totally old and we had it all along!) tech, on top of constantly stealing almost every single unique rule & toys that used to define Chaos. (Ironclads, Centurions, Grav, Librarian Conclaves, Skyhammer DS + Charge, now Wulfen being better Possessed)

And instead, when Chaos players rightly point out how spoiled Imperials have become, all we get are snide comments about how we have Daemons (which are literally down to about 3-5 viable choices now), and Khornekin (which is simply the Blood Tithe table and Hounds), and told off that we have all the tools we need.

Chaos players have a damn good reason to be eternally peeved, as we've been reduced to comedic Saturday morning cartoon villain for over a decade now. And guaranteed, the 'new' rules & formations that are coming in the CotW campaign book are going to do nothing to help out the major issues Daemons now have. (especially poor Tzeentch)

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Well if you think about it in those terms, the traitor legions lost a feth load when they split from the Imperium. Ie, Mechanicum support and resources, loyalty and back up from other Astartes groups and majority of the Imperial Guard/Army. With that in mind it really is Daemons and Chaos that's holding the traitors up to the Loyalists, fluffwise. A lot of their gear is outdated, or developed after their betrayal, such as Centurians or Stormravens for example. In that sense, those Legions should be requiring Daemonic assistance to take loyalists on. Look at which legions have the most power in the setting. Black Legion and Word Bearers, which have Daemonic assistance. The other legions like World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Emperor's Children are all upgraded by their god with enhanced toughness, berserker fury or speed in some form or another. Iron Warriors rely on vehicles but are matched by loyalist who have not only Vindicators, Predators and Land Raiders but also support from Imperial Guard and new designs like Crusader or Hunter/Stalkers. Alpha Legion don't really do upfront assault and Night Lords don't even have a Primarch or Abaddon to lead them so their pretty on-par with Loyalists.

Daemons and Chaos power is what gives Chaos an edge.

I'm sorry but this just plain wrong, and yet again, highlights the sheer hypocrisy of the Loyalist fan base...

Yes, the Traitor Legions lost their original support bases when they fled to the Eye. But, half the entire ****ing IoM went rogue with them!
We had millions of traitor Imperial Army units and their entire mobile support staff, the Dark Mechanicus who fled Mars, vast parts of entire star systems (including whole Forgeworlds) who packed up and fled as well, etc... All these assets either set-up within the Eye itself, or else scattered across the broken Imperium to form outlying stronghold within wilderness space.
Even within the Eye itself, there are entire Daemon worlds that are chaotic version of Imperial forgeworlds, whole planets of mutants & human renegades. Dark pacts are constantly sworn between the likes of the Dark Mechanicus or Fabius Bile to keep the Traitor Legions and various Chaos warbands well supplied.

This entire idea that Chaos Marines should have no toys of their own because, "lols, you guys left the Imperium" is just BS.

Look at the Iron Warriors daemonworld of Medrengard: the entire planet is pretty much just one massive series of fortress after fortress (each ruled by a Warsmith, who in turn still owes fealty to Purterabo), and these fortresses do nothing but churn out wargear, war machines & new potential Marines every single day!
And that's just ONE daemonworld.

If anything, Chaos should have bucketloads more unique and weird warp-fueled toys than Imperials, because the Imperium has stagnated and regressed for nearly 10,000 years
But nope, instead we have Imperials who are constantly "discovering" new (but totally old and we had it all along!) tech, on top of constantly stealing almost every single unique rule & toys that used to define Chaos. (Ironclads, Centurions, Grav, Librarian Conclaves, Skyhammer DS + Charge, now Wulfen being better Possessed)

And instead, when Chaos players rightly point out how spoiled Imperials have become, all we get are snide comments about how we have Daemons (which are literally down to about 3-5 viable choices now), and Khornekin (which is simply the Blood Tithe table and Hounds), and told off that we have all the tools we need.

Chaos players have a damn good reason to be eternally peeved, as we've been reduced to comedic Saturday morning cartoon villain for over a decade now. And guaranteed, the 'new' rules & formations that are coming in the CotW campaign book are going to do nothing to help out the major issues Daemons now have. (especially poor Tzeentch)

Except, y'know, I have a Chaos army (that can fit into CSM, BL, CS and KDK all at the same time), the fact that humans that turned with the legions are all dead because they have a lifespan of 80 years and are used as meatshields and sacrifices, the Dark Mechanicum don't have access to STCs or Forge World resources, and no matter how much they raid they cannot match the industrial output of a billion worlds all churning out soldiers. Plus, what you are actually building are dinobots, which are Daemons. And the fact the Imperium are REGRESSING, not REGRESSED. They are losing stuff all the time, but they are still able to repair stuff. Chaos Legions never had Razorbacks or Stormravens. Then you have the whiners who say "I want to play Chaos Legions!" But then whine about not having X new gear, which the Legions didn't have and scream "But renegades all the time!"
Also, Daemons ARE CHAOS' NICHE THING. Whether or not they are "viable" is a subjective term created by an increasingly competitive meta that just "has to win." All units are viable when used correctly, against the right enemy (except Mechanicus who suck balls). Just because you or others mathhammer to death everything to get the "optimal, take most universally useful list" doesn't make units useless. You say "KDK just gives us Bloodhounds" but that's bs too. You also get Bloodcrushers, Bloodthirsters (3 of them), Letters, Heralds, character versions, and Soul Grinders without dipping into your allies. Bloodhounds migtht be the best of them, but they are not the only things you get out of KDK.

Also, Tzeentch sucks and should stay in the ground along with Slaanesh, Blood for the Blood God

 Deadshot wrote:
Also, Tzeentch sucks and should stay in the ground along with Slaanesh, Blood for the Blood God

I couldn't think of a better way to top such a post, either.

Sigh.

You also seem a bit lost on some issues. Of course the portion of the imperial army that turned renegade during the Heresy should be dead by now (and I say "should" because things work differently in the Eye), but Imperial Guard regiments are constantly turning renegade, all the time. It's even stated in the fluff that entire platoons of imperial guardsmen going rogue are much more common than actual space marines doing so. The Dark Mechanicum not having access to STCs or "Forge World resources" is quite a bland statement, since at this stage the Dark Mechanicum has built its own Forge Worlds inside the Eye, and they've had 10.000 years to endlessly experiment, research old technologies and develop new nasty toys. Actually Chaos Space Marines should have access to way nastier and more destructive gear than Loyalists, even if also more unstable and dangerous. The only new toys CSM got in the last 15 years of game development were the Heldrake and the Dinobots; only the Dinobots are stated to be an actual "creation", and even then it seems to be a thing from the Iron Warriors alone, not the Dark Mechanicum.

For all its unending potential, CSM have received virtually nothing since the 3.5 codex, with the exception of Heldrakes in 6th edition, an overpowered and poisoned gift that shone like a diamond in the mud at the time of its release, and turned 6th edition Chaos into an almost monobuild codex (it was either Heldrake spam or going full Nurgle since the other marks suck). Then 7th edition came along and the Heldrake was rightfully nerfed. The Dinobots would have been incredible in 5th edition, the edition the 6th ed. CSM codex was written for, but arrived at a time when the tables had brutally turned for vehicles in general. As a whole, the current CSM codex is basically a codex from two-three editions ago.

Meanwhile, Loyalist Marines keep getting new shiny toys and new shiny models one edition after another. I think CSM players have earned the right to, at least, call this unfair.

 Deadshot wrote:
Except, y'know, I have a Chaos army (that can fit into CSM, BL, CS and KDK all at the same time), the fact that humans that turned with the legions are all dead because they have a lifespan of 80 years and are used as meatshields and sacrifices, the Dark Mechanicum don't have access to STCs or Forge World resources, and no matter how much they raid they cannot match the industrial output of a billion worlds all churning out soldiers. Plus, what you are actually building are dinobots, which are Daemons. And the fact the Imperium are REGRESSING, not REGRESSED. They are losing stuff all the time, but they are still able to repair stuff. Chaos Legions never had Razorbacks or Stormravens. Then you have the whiners who say "I want to play Chaos Legions!" But then whine about not having X new gear, which the Legions didn't have and scream "But renegades all the time!"
Also, Daemons ARE CHAOS' NICHE THING. Whether or not they are "viable" is a subjective term created by an increasingly competitive meta that just "has to win." All units are viable when used correctly, against the right enemy (except Mechanicus who suck balls). Just because you or others mathhammer to death everything to get the "optimal, take most universally useful list" doesn't make units useless. You say "KDK just gives us Bloodhounds" but that's bs too. You also get Bloodcrushers, Bloodthirsters (3 of them), Letters, Heralds, character versions, and Soul Grinders without dipping into your allies. Bloodhounds migtht be the best of them, but they are not the only things you get out of KDK.

Also, Tzeentch sucks and should stay in the ground along with Slaanesh, Blood for the Blood God

And no Marines have fallen to Chaos since the Heresy, right? Or the ones that have just said "huh, what's this thing I'm holding? Oh I shouldn't take this to the Eye with me, it's not spiky enough." Not to mention forgeworlds have fallen to Chaos, y'know where they manufacture this stuff, but I'm sure when they fell all of the stuff there just up and disappeared or was eaten by the forces of Chaos. Not to mention, CSM fight against the new fangled tech all the time and I guess they've decided it's better to lose to it then to adapt at all. We don't need exactly what SM get in regards to vehicles, but some dark, twisted similar version and what CSM get should be comparable to what's in C:SM for the same point value. And unless Chaos goes all to one book, it doesn't matter if Daemons are the "niche" thing, they are not in the CSM book, and that book should be able to stand by itself.

"Then you have the whiners who say "I want to play Chaos Legions!" But then whine about not having X new gear, which the Legions didn't have and scream "But renegades all the time!"

This !!!

 Dozer Blades wrote:
"Then you have the whiners who say "I want to play Chaos Legions!" But then whine about not having X new gear, which the Legions didn't have and scream "But renegades all the time!"

This !!!

Which is why there should be separate lists for Renegades and Legions

 Korinov wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Also, Tzeentch sucks and should stay in the ground along with Slaanesh, Blood for the Blood God

I couldn't think of a better way to top such a post, either.

Sigh.

You also seem a bit lost on some issues. Of course the portion of the imperial army that turned renegade during the Heresy should be dead by now (and I say "should" because things work differently in the Eye), but Imperial Guard regiments are constantly turning renegade, all the time. It's even stated in the fluff that entire platoons of imperial guardsmen going rogue are much more common than actual space marines doing so. The Dark Mechanicum not having access to STCs or "Forge World resources" is quite a bland statement, since at this stage the Dark Mechanicum has built its own Forge Worlds inside the Eye, and they've had 10.000 years to endlessly experiment, research old technologies and develop new nasty toys. Actually Chaos Space Marines should have access to way nastier and more destructive gear than Loyalists, even if also more unstable and dangerous. The only new toys CSM got in the last 15 years of game development were the Heldrake and the Dinobots; only the Dinobots are stated to be an actual "creation", and even then it seems to be a thing from the Iron Warriors alone, not the Dark Mechanicum.

For all its unending potential, CSM have received virtually nothing since the 3.5 codex, with the exception of Heldrakes in 6th edition, an overpowered and poisoned gift that shone like a diamond in the mud at the time of its release, and turned 6th edition Chaos into an almost monobuild codex (it was either Heldrake spam or going full Nurgle since the other marks suck). Then 7th edition came along and the Heldrake was rightfully nerfed. The Dinobots would have been incredible in 5th edition, the edition the 6th ed. CSM codex was written for, but arrived at a time when the tables had brutally turned for vehicles in general. As a whole, the current CSM codex is basically a codex from two-three editions ago.

Meanwhile, Loyalist Marines keep getting new shiny toys and new shiny models one edition after another. I think CSM players have earned the right to, at least, call this unfair.

Of course you can call this unfair. But some CSM players take it a step further and keep bashing Loyalist players, like we can control what GW does with our army

 Sersi wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Chaos has all the tools needed to dominate melee and its nothing new.

Okay...so we want to do it easier, better, cheaper, pick two. You know like all the loyalists do, without crutches like FW or allies.

If by "all the loyalists" you mean Thunderwolf Superfriends, sure. You try dominating someone in melee with Black Templars and then tell me how awesome and great the loyalist melee options are.

 Deadshot wrote:
Well if you think about it in those terms, the traitor legions lost a feth load when they split from the Imperium. Ie, Mechanicum support and resources, loyalty and back up from other Astartes groups and majority of the Imperial Guard/Army. With that in mind it really is Daemons and Chaos that's holding the traitors up to the Loyalists, fluffwise. A lot of their gear is outdated, or developed after their betrayal, such as Centurians or Stormravens for example. In that sense, those Legions should be requiring Daemonic assistance to take loyalists on. Look at which legions have the most power in the setting. Black Legion and Word Bearers, which have Daemonic assistance. The other legions like World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Emperor's Children are all upgraded by their god with enhanced toughness, berserker fury or speed in some form or another. Iron Warriors rely on vehicles but are matched by loyalist who have not only Vindicators, Predators and Land Raiders but also support from Imperial Guard and new designs like Crusader or Hunter/Stalkers. Alpha Legion don't really do upfront assault and Night Lords don't even have a Primarch or Abaddon to lead them so their pretty on-par with Loyalists.

Daemons and Chaos power is what gives Chaos an edge.

Yeah, I can see why loyalists would be better equipped. It's too bad this game doesn't have any kind of balancing mechanism to account for this. If only there were some way of assigning a higher value to units with better equipment so that they couldn't be taken in the same quantities as lesser units. If only... oh well!

 Deadshot wrote:
Then you have the whiners who say "I want to play Chaos Legions!" But then whine about not having X new gear, which the Legions didn't have and scream "But renegades all the time!"

I want to play Chaos legions. I don't want any new gear. I want OLD gear. Shifting the focus from the legions to random renegade warbands was the worst thing that ever happened to CSM. I liked CSM when they were Heresy-era badasses. The legions had character. Now they're just faceless mooks for the goodguys to kill.

So we get the worst of both worlds. No modern equipment because they only have Heresy-era tech (which for some reason seems to = modern tech minus the good stuff plus autocannons), but no veteran abilities because they're all recently turned renegades. But that's ok. The badguys don't need to make sense - just shoot them!

I hate renegades too. It is in my mind a screw over by Jervis Johnson supported by Phil Kelly. It's all about the legions and their fractured warbands. Thankfully there are other designers and Khorne is making a new splash. A smeg like Kelly does not have the necessary grey matter required to write good rules for Khorne. The new Bloodletters are a travesty.

Don't let the Kelly fan-boys hear you!

Those bastards !!! T3 1A Bloodletters... :(

nareik wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
As stated, that's very legion dependent. And meta dependent. A lot of the older metas still frown on things like allies and formations, since they are relatively new and blamed for the unbalanced state of the game.

but if we are blaming unbalance on relatively new things then perhaps chaos suffers unbalance because of the relatively new split they had into daemons and marines?

New? It was like 8 years and two codices ago in the 4th edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Sersi wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Chaos has all the tools needed to dominate melee and its nothing new.

Okay...so we want to do it easier, better, cheaper, pick two. You know like all the loyalists do, without crutches like FW or allies.

If by "all the loyalists" you mean Thunderwolf Superfriends, sure. You try dominating someone in melee with Black Templars and then tell me how awesome and great the loyalist melee options are.

Nope. I play Black Templars to brother! They might be worse that White Scars and Ultramarines, but come on. CSM don't even have a Landraider Crusader, or any assault vehicles really. Or Ironclade Dreadnoughts in drop pods, or Gladius, or........I could gone on for all day. Now I'll give you the Black Tide isn't easy mode but its not the only play templars. Try doing something other than melee with CSM and watch as you get shot off the board.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:

 Korinov wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
How is that so? I have had really good experience with these units. I can post up a list.

I can't wait for other one of those CSM lists of yours that so clearly prove the CSM codex is not that bad.

The Codex is bad, but that's not to say that there aren't ways to make some synergistic combos and to make lists that will win. I'm surprised this thread hasn't blown the servers with salted motherboards from all the tears of those who think it's unplayable. Like Dozer Blades, I play a CSM list that is quite competitive. Not LVO/Adepticon Championships competitive, but at any lesser event it would do just fine when played well. Too many people want a point-click, "I win" army. Go play Eldar if that's what you want, it's super easy; been there, done that.

I love how so many of the "your codex is fine - just L2P" arguments inevitably always accuse us of simply wanting an OP, 'I-Win' button codex like smEldar...

Here's a shocking concept: not Everyone wants to be shoehorned into playing Nurgle all the time just to stand a chance at even having a close game with actual Chaos Space Marines!

I just want to be able to field a Tzeentch army that doesn't get laughed off the table by even unoptimised Guard or Blood Angels for once...
I want to have options for once that allow me to field my army based off of Tzeentch's affinity for burning everything in sight. (seriously, why no Heavy + Hand flamers for us?)
I'd love to have a reason to take my Possessed & Warptalons as part of an actual CSM army, instead of them only being viable when taken as rejects within a Codex: Daemons army.

Most of all, I just want to see Chaos for once be treated with the same love & attention that every other MEQ army gets, instead of us continuously being gakked on with our identity forever being 'Marines -10'.
If Loyalists can get Chapter Tactics, then why can't we have similar fluffy rules for our iconic Undivided Legions/infamous Renegades? Where are our new toys? Why do Loyalists keep getting significantly better versions of our unique units?

But apparently, wanting to simply be treated as being equal to all the other Marine books automatically makes us a bunch of WaaC's TFG's.

I already said I acknowledge the Codex isn't good. However, that doesn't mean people want to hear all the internet uber-Generals complain. Work with what you have, get creative, and practice to become a better player. You want to play Tzeentch? Get creative and come up with some combos that play off that. My Alpha Legion isn't "shoehorned into playing Nurgle". I don't have a single marked unit in my list. I wanted to make a competitive list that fit within my vision for my Alpha Legion, and I did; the units synergize well and I play it well, and therefore I win more than I lose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:
The hostility probably came about due to his generalizations about people who disagree with him.

Nah, my generalizations were about people who complain without actually putting forth the effort to be better players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Battlesong wrote:
Basically as a CSM player, I ask for a level of parity. No, in a game like this there is no way to have perfect parity and I wouldn't want that anyway, but all of the codices should be able to at least compete on their own against other codices without having to add any other books. The CSM codex cannot stand on its own against a good portion of the other armies that are out there and that's the crux of the issue.

With help from Forgeworld, I feel like it can at least hang out in the shallower end of the big kids pool, lol.

I'm afraid it can't do that, since it drowned in a rainwater puddle.

I don't see how taking forge world makes you a better player, or suggesting that the csm codex is bad makes you a worse one.

The codex is what it is. Allies help, FW helps, sure. I don't think anyone is going to deny any of that.

But the csm codex is bad. I own a lot of armies and it's one of the worst armies I have on the table despite is being my favorite and best looking. Most of its options are just worst marine options outside of a few gems (spawn, bikes, demon allies).

I don't see how effort can be put forth to make the csm any better, or its players better. Unless you want a repeat of the mutilator thread, or people chiming in that warp talons are working as intended.

Well duh, of course. Haven't you noticed the large showing of CSM in tournaments where they use Alpha Legion and then supplement the Warp Talons and Mutilators?

OR you can actually look at the big picture instead of your CAAC locals.

BA sure are spoiled. Being part of IoM sure has worked out for them. BA: a list where warp talons and mutilators are fearsome opponents.

Oh come on Martel, don't buy into that Mutilators/Warp Talon garbage.

It's too late, he already has.

It 'confirms' his belief that BA with their grav weapons are actually worse than us...

"Oh, but you've got Daemon allies! Look at how Allies fixes everything for the Imperium and l2p"

Yeah, that's nice and all, but all the broken ally shenanigans comes from putting characters into units and allowing rules interactions where they were never intended. You can't do that with CSM and daemons because of daemonic instability and you can't do that with KDK unless you're just allying more khorne or undivided since marked units can't join other differently marked units.

What other codex actively punishes you for taking options in the dex? Crap like the Tzeentch table being utter trash bar doombolt, paying 10 points for the nurgle icon (handing out fear) on a unit with the daemon special rule already like possessed, or paying for an icon of vengance on a fearless unit, or paying points for mark of slaanesh on oblits who can only ever have powerfist attacks and can't take the FNP icon, or making the banner of blood the same price for berserkers who already get half the bonuses, the examples of basic crap like this just don't end.

Where I play, forgeworld is a no-on unless it's Apoc, and even then there's a limit on how much is acceptable, so no IA13 for me.

So no, when the outcome of a game is determined not by player skill, not by dice luck, not even by list advantage but purely and utterly by what codex my opponent is bringing? Yeah, nah, CSM is not relevant to anything anymore unless you're playing against BA, Guard or non-MC spam 'nids.

CSM don't have delivery options? Dakka please, CSM don't have options for anything except for sucking and losing.

Oh come on, lets be honest the 10 points for fear on a fear causing unit isn't really for fear, but is for the +1 combat res. You're not paying 10 points for absolutely nothing. Also on a per squad basis MoS is cheap for obliterators, even if it doesn't allow for much other than better running away success (and blinding avoidance?).

I'm not saying these upgrades are priced right, but they aren't completely tax for no reason.

If people are making arbitrary rules in games against you that you feel badly effect your army, perhaps you should do the same to them?

I guess banner of blood is a KDK thing? otherwise, if by banner of blood you mean icon of wrath, well then Zerker's do get a discount on that one, and the bonuses they do get are decent (improved charges, improvements to attached characters, combat resolution bonus).

nareik wrote:
Oh come on, lets be honest the 10 points for fear on a fear causing unit isn't really for fear, but is for the +1 combat res.

I routinely hear about the constant dangers of CSM losing in assault without ATSKNF (at LD9). I routinely hear about the difficulty in sweeping Necrons in assault (at LD10).

I can't say I ever hear about Icons though.

 Homeskillet wrote:


I already said I acknowledge the Codex isn't good. However, that doesn't mean people want to hear all the internet uber-Generals complain. Work with what you have, get creative, and practice to become a better player. You want to play Tzeentch? Get creative and come up with some combos that play off that. My Alpha Legion isn't "shoehorned into playing Nurgle". I don't have a single marked unit in my list. I wanted to make a competitive list that fit within my vision for my Alpha Legion, and I did; the units synergize well and I play it well, and therefore I win more than I lose.

Out of curiosity, what is your list?

Synergy doesn't help when you get wiped from the board first turn. Cover be damned.

Yoyoyo wrote:

nareik wrote:
Oh come on, lets be honest the 10 points for fear on a fear causing unit isn't really for fear, but is for the +1 combat res.

I routinely hear about the constant dangers of CSM losing in assault without ATSKNF (at LD9). I routinely hear about the difficulty in sweeping Necrons in assault (at LD10).

I can't say I ever hear about Icons though.

Because they aren't a significant counter to losing combat. Since CSM aren't durable they often lose by more then a few wounds against units that are actually going to be assaulting them (unlike necrons who are so durable that they barely lose combat if at all)

 CrownAxe wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

nareik wrote:
Oh come on, lets be honest the 10 points for fear on a fear causing unit isn't really for fear, but is for the +1 combat res.

I routinely hear about the constant dangers of CSM losing in assault without ATSKNF (at LD9). I routinely hear about the difficulty in sweeping Necrons in assault (at LD10).

I can't say I ever hear about Icons though.

Because they aren't a significant counter to losing combat. Since CSM aren't durable they often lose by more then a few wounds against units that are actually going to be assaulting them (unlike necrons who are so durable that they barely lose combat if at all)

Then there's also the fact that the Icons are almost entirely useless for you actual assault specialists... The only one of any worth is the Slaanesh FnP icon.

And then you get stupidity like Tzeentch Possessed who have 0 shooting weapons, having the option to pay for an Icon who's bonus is to give Soul Blaze to all their non-existant Bolt pistols/Bolters/Heavy bolters!
Or Nurgle units causing Fear - easily the single most useless USR in the game, since over half the armies in the game outright ignore it.

Plus the Crimson Slaughter hands out Fear. For free.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Plus the Crimson Slaughter hands out Fear. For free.

And Nurgle Slaughter, (Snotty Slaughter?! Mucus Murderers!?), can pay for double the pointlessness!

You don't understand! +1 to combat resolution is SOOOO worth the points!

CSM was the first sixth edition codex... Of course it's very dated and overall not competitive. For some of us it is a fun and challenging codex to use. Comments like using allies or FW is lame is pretty hilarious... Sure we should fight with both hands tied behind our back. It's really easy to point out all the flaws. One thing I really like about CSM is it a true challenge rather than more super cheese.

Is that code word for "terrible internal and external balance"?

What are you talking about? Khorne trucks no salt.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
CSM was the first sixth edition codex... Of course it's very dated and overall not competitive. For some of us it is a fun and challenging codex to use. Comments like using allies or FW is lame is pretty hilarious... Sure we should fight with both hands tied behind our back. It's really easy to point out all the flaws. One thing I really like about CSM is it a true challenge rather than more super cheese.

But your lists have virtually no csm in them, so how is that a challenge?

It's still possible to do good with mostly csm. Khornate or Slaaneshits. Nurgle's just too expensive for current meta imo.

It's not so much Nurgle's too expensive, it just too expensive to spam on everything.

You're not going to convince me that t4 Cultists or t5 Basic CSM are worth two more points with all the Mid to high power shots nowadays

But on a Spawn squad/ Biker Blob, stuff like that...


TBH I tend to go mostly Undivided. I can get just about another Marine or another squad of cultists for the cost of Marks and most of the bonuses just aren't worth putting on every unit.

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:

TBH I tend to go mostly Undivided. I can get just about another Marine or another squad of cultists for the cost of Marks and most of the bonuses just aren't worth putting on every unit.

That's the thing, marks aren't / weren't / shouldn't be about making a unit objectively better than it was for the points than an unmarked unit, as then it's a case of punishing 1/2 the legion players for playing Undivided legions as well as punishing the 3 gods whose mark isn't as good. They're meant to be about giving the unit a theme and a bit of an advantage against some things and a weakness to others.

Unfortunately, the base units are trash for the most part and +1 toughness is so much better than everything else that it's either nurgle (because +1T is great on some units) or nothing (because even +1T doesn't help if you're still wounded on 2's so you might as well get more models). Doesn't help that it's just a stat change instead of modifying how the unit works either, nor that most marks (and upgrades like votlw) are quite overpriced.

 Drasius wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
CSM was the first sixth edition codex... Of course it's very dated and overall not competitive. For some of us it is a fun and challenging codex to use. Comments like using allies or FW is lame is pretty hilarious... Sure we should fight with both hands tied behind our back. It's really easy to point out all the flaws. One thing I really like about CSM is it a true challenge rather than more super cheese.

But your lists have virtually no csm in them, so how is that a challenge?

Exactly. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt .

 Homeskillet wrote:

 Battlesong wrote:
Basically as a CSM player, I ask for a level of parity. No, in a game like this there is no way to have perfect parity and I wouldn't want that anyway, but all of the codices should be able to at least compete on their own against other codices without having to add any other books. The CSM codex cannot stand on its own against a good portion of the other armies that are out there and that's the crux of the issue.

With help from Forgeworld, I feel like it can at least hang out in the shallower end of the big kids pool, lol.

And that's my point, the 'dex needs outside help to even start to stand on its own

That's not really a big deal if you want to play Chaos. It's the oldest sixth edition codex so of course it lags behind newer books.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
That's not really a big deal if you want to play Chaos. It's the oldest sixth edition codex so of course it lags behind newer books.

Except that the book was generally not very good even when it was new. My playgroup at that point laughingly dubbed it "Codex: Heldrake Delivery System" as that's pretty much all it had. So, you're argument holds much less weight because its age is not why it's bad, it just exacerbates the situation......

It is so good to see so many people point out how weak CSM is. Finaly people know my pain. Its like watching newbies play dark souls and getting curb stomped by the tutorial boss.

Most people move on and start a different army. I did that and regret not choosing Eldar... I wasted my money yet again. If I wanted to win, I should have bought eldar net list or necron decurion, or SM gladius, or tau tide wing.

 Filch wrote:
I wasted my money yet again. If I wanted to win, I should have bought eldar net list or necron decurion, or SM gladius, or tau tide wing.

Chaos won TSHFT with "renegades, chaos knight and a smattering of tzeentch daemons. All zombies and Thudd guns with rapiers for the renegades".

Don't you have a bunch of Chaos Knights and Zombies already? Save yourself some money.

Do you have an actual list? I was unable to find one and if CSM won I'd certainly like to see it.

I can't give point-for-point but It apparently had something like this:

ML3 Sorc
Zombies
9 thudd guns
Rapier laser batteries
Daemon knight
Tz Horror and Herald for demon summoning (Grimoire?)
VSG

Copying netlists is overrated, it helps throw people off balance when you show up with something unexpected.

Well, the netlists that you see floating around are harmed a lot by the ITC rules, which this tournament used. Things like the centstar, eldar and their strength D, and the Tau formations are nerfed quite a bit in the ITC format, so you end up seeing other armies cropping up.

That being said, this doesn't really take much from the CSM codex, though it does show the strength of the FW options. Which no one is denying, they are strong. But this isn't what I would call a CSM list...it has 2 units from the CSM dex? Unless the zombies were spammed, and it doesn't look like they could be overly much, the majority of the dex is not CSM.

Which is sad, but about what I expected...

 Dozer Blades wrote:
That's not really a big deal if you want to play Chaos. It's the oldest sixth edition codex so of course it lags behind newer books.

Some of us don't want to play chaos, they want to play csm (ie. No Daemons) and some further still aren't allowed forgeworld in their meta. As others have said, the only really good thing csm had was the heldrake, and even then it got a nerfing and is not worth the points in many matches.

Regardless of age, you have been arguing that the book is fine, but now you've said it lags behind the newer dexes (ie. All of them). So which is it? The CSM codex (and its 2 virtually identical supplements) is just fine on its own with no forgeworld or Daemon Allies, or the CSM codex (and its 2 virtually identical supplements) is so uncompetitive as to be virtually unplayable without forgeworld and Daemon Allies?

CSM is competitive with allies and Forgeworld. I recently went 3-0 at a local RTT not too long ago. Like I've said make due with all the tools you have available. Forgeworld has become much more mainstream so it's not an issue for many of us.

The upfront cost is.

"You can run competitive armies out of this single Eldar codex."

Compared to.

"You can run competitive armies out of this Chaos Marine Codex, and this Expansion Codex, and this Daemon Codex, and this Forgeworld online only book, and this additional Forgeworld online only Expansion book."

 Dozer Blades wrote:
CSM is competitive with allies and Forgeworld. I recently went 3-0 at a local RTT not too long ago. Like I've said make due with all the tools you have available. Forgeworld has become much more mainstream so it's not an issue for many of us.

A) That wasn't the question. The question was, Is the CSM book (including black legion and Crimson Slaughter supplements) playable on its own without forgeworld units or Daemon Allies? Yes or no?

B) While it's fine for you and others who can use forgeworld, what about those who can't? Simply saying "buy 90% of your units from forgeworld" doesn't work if ALL forgeworld is banned.

C) If you are taking Daemon Allies, why not just take more Daemons and less csm and you'd have a stronger list, to the point where you're running pure Daemons (or Be'lakor and 10 cultists because you can't self ally)? There's virtually nothing in csm that strengthens Daemons, to the point where having any CSM just means diluting your list.

 Drasius wrote:

A) That wasn't the question. The question was, Is the CSM book (including black legion and Crimson Slaughter supplements) playable on its own without forgeworld units or Daemon Allies? Yes or no?

Definitely Yes.

It's playable in a casual meta, which is what pretty much all of the battle reports and army lists I've seen or been linked to suggest.

The second the game starts getting competitive, the army becomes mostly daemon, FW, or people just grab another army entirely like Eldar or SoB.

That seems to be the trend. I'd love to see a game where a CSM force goes up against a competitive list and wins but that just doesn't seem to be the case.

Unit to unit comparisons show that the CSM codex, outside of a few units which still aren't as good as the other codexes best stuff, is lagging behind the newer codexes by quite a ways. It's hard to argue that its anything close to a level playing field with anything more than "Well, I said so!".

Was Dark Angels competitive before their new codex ?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Was Dark Angels competitive before their new codex ?

No. I can't say I heard or saw a single DA army before January 2013, and even after that they're codex was lackluster, especially after Space Marines got their update later that year, Grey Knights and Wolves the following year and Blood Angels and Space Marines again.

DA had a brief moment when their dex released. They also had a moment I'm 6th where they were taken as allies for an Ig bubble involving their special character. I believe this was one of the first abuses of the allies matrix and people weren't thrilled about it, despite it not being too unfluffy.

Usually DA is seen as marines - 1 like csm. BA and SW are usually seen as marines +1 although I'm not saying either is the case currently.

Currently I think DA are back to ally status.

 welshhoppo wrote:
The upfront cost is.

"You can run competitive armies out of this single Eldar codex."

Compared to.

"You can run competitive armies out of this Chaos Marine Codex, and this Expansion Codex, and this Daemon Codex, and this Forgeworld online only book, and this additional Forgeworld online only Expansion book."

didn't Eldar have to pay twice for a codex though?

 koooaei wrote:

 Drasius wrote:

A) That wasn't the question. The question was, Is the CSM book (including black legion and Crimson Slaughter supplements) playable on its own without forgeworld units or Daemon Allies? Yes or no?

Definitely Yes.

Definitely not, as you haven't shown anything outside CAAC games where the results were still close. Then there's a matter of them just not showing up at tournaments for a reason.

So what. You can still play and win with pure csm against other pure codexes. It's just harder.

 koooaei wrote:
So what. You can still play and win with pure csm against other pure codexes. It's just harder.

If it makes you feel any better I played the first set of games in my club's kill team campaign last night. My first game was myself (Alpha Legion CSM) vs another person, also playing Alpha Legion CSM

I won that game, and also my second game against Orks. The other CSM player lost his second game against Harlies.

So now my CSM are both joint first (alongside another player who won two games with his Ultramarines), and the other CSM player is joint last (along with Orks, who lost both their games).

I guess that means that using this vast dataset, CSM are somewhere in the middle?

Well against orks, csm, csm, harlies I would imagine csm have to land somewhere in the middle

 koooaei wrote:
So what. You can still play and win with pure csm against other pure codexes. It's just harder.

Oh yeah, so long as the math skews in your favor heavily. Unfortunately, the other 66% of the time the math will be average or skewing in the opponent's favor.

Is it REALLY hard to accept that the codex is poorly written and not worth the paper it is printed on? The CSM codex has some of the most rewrites in the Proposed Rules subforum for a reason. Nobody wants an easy win; they want a codex that can fight evenly with the others and has no junk units. If you were to look at the internal balance of Necron, Eldar, and Space Marines codices you'll see that there's VERY few units not worth taking (Eldar codex has Storm Guardians and Wraithlords, and some say Vypers. The Necron codex has C'Tan and Monoliths. The Space Marines has Terminator variants and Land Raiders).

Every codex has units not worth taking. For example terminators are crap now. There are solid units in the CSM units - level 3 sorcerer on bike - oblits - plague zombies - heldrakes - a lot of the special characters - black mace prince. Personally I think Khorne has really come on strong lately with the new KDK.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
a lot of the special characters

You're joking, right?

I use Kharn a lot - he shreds SHW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nurgle Spawn are rock solid too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
So what. You can still play and win with pure csm against other pure codexes. It's just harder.

Oh yeah, so long as the math skews in your favor heavily. Unfortunately, the other 66% of the time the math will be average or skewing in the opponent's favor.

Is it REALLY hard to accept that the codex is poorly written and not worth the paper it is printed on? The CSM codex has some of the most rewrites in the Proposed Rules subforum for a reason. Nobody wants an easy win; they want a codex that can fight evenly with the others and has no junk units. If you were to look at the internal balance of Necron, Eldar, and Space Marines codices you'll see that there's VERY few units not worth taking (Eldar codex has Storm Guardians and Wraithlords, and some say Vypers. The Necron codex has C'Tan and Monoliths. The Space Marines has Terminator variants and Land Raiders).

It's not so much that the CSM codex is horribly written...

The book was/is clearly still a mostly 5th edition codex. If it came out before 6th dropped, it would have played a lot better than it ever did from day 1.
Instead, it's always felt like 6th was pushed ahead, and thus, instead of holding back on the CSM codex and reworking it to properly fit into the new game system, GW decided to just forge ahead, and forced a few hastily bolted on rules to shoehorn a 5th edition book into the test best for 6th.
There's not much any writer could do when you're basically told to just 'slap on some extra bitz and who cares!'


Most of all, GW has left our model line to rot for over 10-15+ years when the book initially released.
Thanks to the Chapterhouse ruling, GW had already implemented the strict policy of not releasing any rules for models they don't/won't make. Our biggest issue that is our model kits are still stuck firmly in 3rd/4th edition as if we're still playing the same game that we did in the early 2000's!

Kelly had no ability to add in more options to our armoury, and that's our biggest downfall... While everyone else is able to load up on Grav guns, Scatter lasers, HYMP's, etc..., we're stuck with Autocannons and Plasma guns because that's the only thing available within our current model line up!
Likewise, we don't have any actual delivery systems, because unlike Loyalists, we don't have any model/s for things like a Chaos Drop Pod or 'Assault' class Rhino variant, let alone *any* potential Land Raider variant.

Instead, the model department gave us Dinobots, which while cool and finally begins the long process of differentiating us from those Loyalist scum, ended up with 5th ed scaled rules because our book was never designed around 6th edition like the later Tau/Daemon/Eldar books were. (and let's face it, that Forgefiend would have been nasty in 5th!)


We can keep going around in circles all day long, but the problem with Chaos Marines is quite simple:
1. The army is still shoehorned into playing the defunct 'Rhino Rush' infantry assaults of 3rd/4th edition.

2. The model line is absolutely ancient and lacks any form of modern weaponry.

The only way we can play a purely CSM list nowadays is to beg opponents to build an equally retro list and play down to our level. Otherwise, enjoy Codex: Nurgle + FW & Daemon friends.
Too bad if you're part of the other 90%+ of the Chaos fanbase who don't want to play exclusively Nurgle or superfriends.

Oh gosh we do have viable delivery systems... it is not drop pods or LR variants.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Filch wrote:
I wasted my money yet again. If I wanted to win, I should have bought eldar net list or necron decurion, or SM gladius, or tau tide wing.

Chaos won TSHFT with "renegades, chaos knight and a smattering of tzeentch daemons. All zombies and Thudd guns with rapiers for the renegades".

Don't you have a bunch of Chaos Knights and Zombies already? Save yourself some money.

Yeah because its logical that EVERYONE wants to play Zombies and Knights...

Dozer Blades wrote:CSM is competitive with allies and Forgeworld. I recently went 3-0 at a local RTT not too long ago. Like I've said make due with all the tools you have available. Forgeworld has become much more mainstream so it's not an issue for many of us.

But like we said a few times, not everywhere FW is welcome, and even in some places where they tolerate FW, you get a nasty look when you play a FW unit, even though its not that powerfull.

Dozer Blades wrote:Was Dark Angels competitive before their new codex ?

Bad example, since DA's are basically CSM...

Dozer Blades wrote:I use Kharn a lot - he shreds SHW.

.

For once i agree with you, still don't get why he lost his 2+ save from back then and EW and got down from 4W to 3...

Dozer Blades wrote:Every codex has units not worth taking. For example terminators are crap now. There are solid units in the CSM units - level 3 sorcerer on bike - oblits - plague zombies - heldrakes - a lot of the special characters - black mace prince. Personally I think Khorne has really come on strong lately with the new KDK.

There is a difference when a codex with 30 units as 5 bad ones, and a codex where they have 35 units but they have 13 bad ones...

And once again you give us the units that Works, but that people doesn't want as a CSM.

I play World Eaters( wich i will recap is not KDK, as it is stated in the Codex), should i play Sorcerors and Zombies because those are good units in your opinion?

What about the guy who wants to play Iron Warriors?, what good will zombies do for him?

Thats the problem, you quote 4 units that works in the whole codex on a competitive level, and thats whats wrong with this codex, it should be the other way around.

If the only lists/instance of a working and winning competitive CSM list you can give me as no CSM, and all revolve around Sorcerors, SHW, zombies and FW artillery units, then it is proof that the codex doesn't work on a competitive level without the NEED( not the option but need) of using outsiders, and thats what the topic is about.

Darn it barely works on a fluff/casual level.

KDK works because of BftBG and gak loads of Hounds, in some regards its exatcly the same BftBG=Sorceror, Hounds=Zombies...

I don't ever remember Kharn being 4W EW. For 160 points he gets the job done. Smashfecker clocks in at 250 points with all the toys so yeah Kharn is a great bargain for what he does.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I dont ever rememner Kharn being 4W EW. For 160 points he gets the job done. Smashfecker clocks in at 250 points with all the toys so yeah Kharn is a great bargain for what he does.

Kharn dies to a round of Krak Missiles EASILY. That's not a bargain.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I dont ever rememner Kharn being 4W EW. For 160 points he gets the job done. Smashfecker clocks in at 250 points with all the toys so yeah Kharn is a great bargain for what he does.

Kharn dies to a round of Krak Missiles EASILY. That's not a bargain.

Who ever puts Kharn by himself against a 'round' of krak missiles?

Exactly !

A big issue is that half the book is terrible and half the gods are really bad.

Lords are decent with certain builds but it's narrow
Sorcerers are good
Demon Princes again need a very specific build and pretty much has to be nurgle.
Warpsmiths are terrible over costed
Dark apostles are meh and at least 15 points to expensive.

Chaos Space Marines are terrible. There tactical squads with no grav weapons. Marks and Icons can make them better but they quickly become very expensive
Cultists are good for sitting on an objective and being a tarpit, that's pretty much it.

Chosen are over costed
Possessed are crappy
Chaos terminators are good for one thing, Suicide combi bombs. Great way to treat your vets.
Hellbrutes are meh as most walkers are
Mutilators are meh
Berzerkers are over costed and become more so with chain axes
Thousand Sons are horribly over costed
Plague Marines are good
Noise Marines are hamstrung due to the salvo rule

Rhinos are good
Chaos Bikes are good
Spawn are good
Raptors are meh
Warp Talons may be the worst unit in the game
Heldrake is still good

Havocs are meh
Obliterators are good but pretty much need a mark of nurgle
The defiler is horrible over costed
the Dino bots are pretty good
Land raiders are over costed.

All in All unless you want to play Nurgle your pretty much screwed at a competitive level. If you want to play Khorne at least you have another book, but Tzeentch and Slaanesh. Every power armor body you take in this codex is hurting you.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I don't ever remember Kharn being 4W EW. For 160 points he gets the job done. Smashfecker clocks in at 250 points with all the toys so yeah Kharn is a great bargain for what he does.

Before 4th Ed codex Kharn was.

4Wounds, 6Attacks, +D3 on the assault, Fnp 4+, 2+/5++, EW, could Run+Assault, Furious Charge was +1Str and Init at the time.

He was 180pts at the time, could only be taken in an army with at least one unit marked to Khorne.

Him in a unit of fully geared Chosen of Khorne in a Khorne dedicated Land Raider was the incarnation of Rape-Train, and there was no brakes on it...

To be fair though, back then, you could charge from one combat into another. That alone made any melee unit about a billion times better than today, and it rewarded you for taking off any brakes.

Inb4 mutilators and warp talons are good.

please tell that is sarcasm

HoundsofDemos wrote:
please tell that is sarcasm

It's either sarcasm or trolling....

Don't bring up the holy grail again, it will only bring tears.

We had a good delivery system for deepstiking as well with the marker and summon system. And my lovely armour and invulnerable ignoring daemon Prince......

But yeah. Kharn used to be bonkers, but then you were completely restricted in the Book of Khorne then, so no other marks at all for you.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I dont ever rememner Kharn being 4W EW. For 160 points he gets the job done. Smashfecker clocks in at 250 points with all the toys so yeah Kharn is a great bargain for what he does.

Kharn dies to a round of Krak Missiles EASILY. That's not a bargain.

Who ever puts Kharn by himself against a 'round' of krak missiles?

That's without the cost of a retinue. If you look at the Kharn's cost with his durability, it is junk. He only has a 3+, 5++, W3, and no EW. Even IF he strikes at AP2 I5, it isn't good. Even Azrael, who isn't a killing machine whatsoever, can kill Kharn within a few rounds.

You can always say a character won't be by themselves, but that's just refusing to acknowledge the downsides to a character.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I don't ever remember Kharn being 4W EW. For 160 points he gets the job done. Smashfecker clocks in at 250 points with all the toys so yeah Kharn is a great bargain for what he does.

Before 4th Ed codex Kharn was.

4Wounds, 6Attacks, +D3 on the assault, Fnp 4+, 2+/5++, EW, could Run+Assault, Furious Charge was +1Str and Init at the time.

He was 180pts at the time, could only be taken in an army with at least one unit marked to Khorne.

Him in a unit of fully geared Chosen of Khorne in a Khorne dedicated Land Raider was the incarnation of Rape-Train, and there was no brakes on it...

Was this second or third edition ?

 Battlesong wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
please tell that is sarcasm

It's either sarcasm or trolling....

What are you referring to?

That Multilators and Warp Talons could be described as anything but bad.

You must have missed the 20+ page thread on mutilators, or Koooaei's interjections into random threads.

There are certainly people who believe these units are good despite all evidence to the contrary.

When someone starts mentioning CSM are bad someone will comment that mutilators are good and the thread will get derailed. I was hoping to avoid it

I'm aware of the other thread, I've posted in it a few times.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
That Multilators and Warp Talons could be described as anything but bad.

It's tragic, because fluff wise, both Mutilators & Warptalons are amongst the coolest units in the entire codex imho.

And yet, alongside 1kSons, they form the unholy "triumvirate of vomit-inducing uselessness."

Experiment 626 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
That Multilators and Warp Talons could be described as anything but bad.

It's tragic, because fluff wise, both Mutilators & Warptalons are amongst the coolest units in the entire codex imho.

And yet, alongside 1kSons, they form the unholy "triumvirate of vomit-inducing uselessness."

Possessed didn't make the cut? I think mutilators are better than possessed.
And Khorne Berzerkers.
Really it needs to be a pentagr-WAIT A MINUTE

Mutilators are terrible compared to Possessed. Possessed from the Crimson Slaughter can capture objectives at a faster rate and can actually sweep whatever they catch in melee...

Akiasura wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
That Multilators and Warp Talons could be described as anything but bad.

It's tragic, because fluff wise, both Mutilators & Warptalons are amongst the coolest units in the entire codex imho.

And yet, alongside 1kSons, they form the unholy "triumvirate of vomit-inducing uselessness."

Possessed didn't make the cut? I think mutilators are better than possessed.
And Khorne Berzerkers.
Really it needs to be a pentagr-WAIT A MINUTE

Possessed are bad, but Crimson Slaughter Possessed have some utility uses.
Berserkers are simply about 5pts/model overcosted when given their Chainaxes (which should simply be included as part of the basic package). Give them the charge though, and they can **** stuff up.

Mutilators are made of rank fecal matter even in the most optimal situations.
Warptalons work somewhat when used in a mono-Tzeentch Daemons list of all things.
1kSons have simply been in dire need of a hug for going on 15+ years now. (I don't think *ANY* unit in the game has been so routinely crap for nearly its entire existence!)

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I don't ever remember Kharn being 4W EW. For 160 points he gets the job done. Smashfecker clocks in at 250 points with all the toys so yeah Kharn is a great bargain for what he does.

Before 4th Ed codex Kharn was.

4Wounds, 6Attacks, +D3 on the assault, Fnp 4+, 2+/5++, EW, could Run+Assault, Furious Charge was +1Str and Init at the time.

He was 180pts at the time, could only be taken in an army with at least one unit marked to Khorne.

Him in a unit of fully geared Chosen of Khorne in a Khorne dedicated Land Raider was the incarnation of Rape-Train, and there was no brakes on it...

Was this second or third edition ?

The only edition that mattered, everything after that was insulting

God I miss that Codex :(

Are you sure he was EW?

Yoyoyo wrote:
I can't give point-for-point but It apparently had something like this:

ML3 Sorc
Zombies
9 thudd guns
Rapier laser batteries
Daemon knight
Tz Horror and Herald for demon summoning (Grimoire?)
VSG

Copying netlists is overrated, it helps throw people off balance when you show up with something unexpected.

...That's 2 things from the CSM codex.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Every codex has units not worth taking. For example terminators are crap now. There are solid units in the CSM units - level 3 sorcerer on bike - oblits - plague zombies - heldrakes - a lot of the special characters - black mace prince. Personally I think Khorne has really come on strong lately with the new KDK.

A lot of special characters? What? Do you often play against Leman Russ battle tanks or SMs with grav? Ever played Tau? CSMs in PA get rekt 10/10 times the second we get out of our transports.

KDK ain't part of the CSM codex.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Oh gosh we do have viable delivery systems... it is not drop pods or LR variants.

Our Rhinos are decent, but do you notice that nothing on the list of what you said we had was good actually goes in a Rhino, bar special characters?

Oh, and Loyalists take Rhinos for free these days. Sure, can't take Dirge Casters or Havoc Launchers, but they take Razorbacks instead, and then their MSUs and mobility rek us.

Akiasura wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
That Multilators and Warp Talons could be described as anything but bad.

It's tragic, because fluff wise, both Mutilators & Warptalons are amongst the coolest units in the entire codex imho.

And yet, alongside 1kSons, they form the unholy "triumvirate of vomit-inducing uselessness."

Possessed didn't make the cut? I think mutilators are better than possessed.
And Khorne Berzerkers.
Really it needs to be a pentagr-WAIT A MINUTE

Here, have an exalt, you glorious thing!

Mutilators are better than many things when used right.

 koooaei wrote:
Mutilators are better than many things when used right.

Everything seems good when used in the exact right situation.

Unfortunately the exact right situation for Mutilators almost never shows up.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

The only edition that mattered, everything after that was insulting

Agree with the second statement, not with the first one. CSM true golden age was actually in 2nd edition, when you could pick whatever Loyalist piece of equipment you wanted by paying an extra 50% points price. Raptors didn't exist back then, but you could get them from the SM codex. And Landspeeders. And other toys. Doomrider was around too.

Regarding Kharn, I don't see EW in his 3.5 rules. He had a 2+ save though.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Unfortunately the exact right situation for Mutilators almost never shows up.

The thread about muties is still up in general discussion
So is the batrep in Battle reports.

Ah when we had the equivalent of artificer. Apparently we lost all our armour in the intervening years...

to be fari, the 3.5dex while intersting was horribly written (figuring points cost for a unit could be 5 or 6 pages easily, if you had legion rules to cope with) and a bit of mess, and had something like 2 stealth reprints to deal with the glaive silliness and Oblit toughness issues. Still, loved it. I remember my crazy bezerker chosen all with power weapons, daemonic strength and visage on my champion and feel no pain... glorious waste of points

We tried the 3.5 codex using the 7th ed rules and kept rules that only existed in the codex, like True Grit, or updated these to the latest 7th version, like Counter Attack. The game went ok but we both felt that it lacked a certain punch. Maybe because we were playing Nurgle and Night Lords.

With the 3.5 dex we liked that we had the ability to choose and create our own champions and the like. We also liked it's variety, but the new dex with stuff like Plague Marines and the Daemon Princes already being made for us are better than the ones we could take back then. But it was nice being able to create a T6 Prince, even if it lacked in other regards. Same as having a 2+ armour save on a Lord.

If the new codex has a combination of the current codex rules, with a drop in points, but the flexibility of the 3.5 dex, I think we could be on to a winner. But i'm not going to hold my breath after the 4th and 6th edition ones.

I think the humble Rhino is a fairly reasonable delivery system but the Land Raider has an identity crisis. We shouldn't also have to rely upon other books to have an alternative method to the 2 we have.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Are you sure he was EW?

He had a Deamonic Rune.

"The Chaos Champion as been gifted with a Deamonic Rune, a mighty symbol of the Powers of the Dark Gods.
Their power flows through the Rune, demonstrating the favour confered onto such Champion.
Such an individual as been marked for greatness and cannot be easely killed."

Unsaved attacks whose Strenghts are at least double the models thoughness, will cause a single Wound instead of an Instant Death.

Wich for the time correspond with EW, since there was no USR and each codex had each of their rules written in it, wich would occure in multiple versions or interpretations of the same rule/effect.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ah when we had the equivalent of artificer. Apparently we lost all our armour in the intervening years...

to be fari, the 3.5dex while intersting was horribly written (figuring points cost for a unit could be 5 or 6 pages easily, if you had legion rules to cope with) and a bit of mess, and had something like 2 stealth reprints to deal with the glaive silliness and Oblit toughness issues. Still, loved it. I remember my crazy bezerker chosen all with power weapons, daemonic strength and visage on my champion and feel no pain... glorious waste of points

Well, we currently have artificer armour again. Except they went out of their way to not let us choose it freely XD.

Roknar wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ah when we had the equivalent of artificer. Apparently we lost all our armour in the intervening years...

to be fari, the 3.5dex while intersting was horribly written (figuring points cost for a unit could be 5 or 6 pages easily, if you had legion rules to cope with) and a bit of mess, and had something like 2 stealth reprints to deal with the glaive silliness and Oblit toughness issues. Still, loved it. I remember my crazy bezerker chosen all with power weapons, daemonic strength and visage on my champion and feel no pain... glorious waste of points

Well, we currently have artificer armour again. Except they went out of their way to not let us choose it freely XD.

yep, Chaos got screwed in the armour department. 6th Ed Marines and Chaos were similar. Both had Power Armour, 3+, and Terminator Armour (2+/5++, deepstrike, relentless, no sweeps), and then Artificer and Fleshmetal which gave 2+. Except Space Marine Captains got Artificer as an upgrade to 2+ for less than TDA, getting better options and cheaper (both points and model as you could just paint fancy PA), and Chaos Lords can only get Power or Terminator Armour, with the only units to get Fleshmetal are Warpsmiths, Oblits and Mutes. Sure, Libbies and Sorcerors can both get TDA, but so can Chaplains, and DA can't.
The only armour is Scout Armour and Improvised Armour. Which is 4+ vs 6+ so got screwed. Even compared to Imperial Guardsmen, of which cultists were clones in every other way, they have lower armour.

To be fair Cultists are cheaper and can be surprising in some instances( MoK cultists that delivers 4A each).

My beef with Cultists is that aparts for their cheapness, they don't have anything else.

In 3rd and 3.5( yeah i know again), at least they could be infiltrators/scouts and be equiped with plasmas/meltas.

For some reasons they don't have infiltrator, when its the whole point of Cultists..., they lie in wait of a Chaos incursion somewhere in the depth of a Hivecity and strike when you least expect them when the time is right.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
To be fair Cultists are cheaper and can be surprising in some instances( MoK cultists that delivers 4A each).

My beef with Cultists is that aparts for their cheapness, they don't have anything else.

In 3rd and 3.5( yeah i know again), at least they could be infiltrators/scouts and be equiped with plasmas/meltas.

For some reasons they don't have infiltrator, when its the whole point of Cultists..., they lie in wait of a Chaos incursion somewhere in the depth of a Hivecity and strike when you least expect them when the time is right.

Cultists aren't cheap though. Compare them to guardsmen. Same cost, worse equipment and options.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Are you sure he was EW?

He had a Deamonic Rune.

"The Chaos Champion as been gifted with a Deamonic Rune, a mighty symbol of the Powers of the Dark Gods.
Their power flows through the Rune, demonstrating the favour confered onto such Champion.
Such an individual as been marked for greatness and cannot be easely killed."

Unsaved attacks whose Strenghts are at least double the models thoughness, will cause a single Wound instead of an Instant Death.

Wich for the time correspond with EW, since there was no USR and each codex had each of their rules written in it, wich would occure in multiple versions or interpretations of the same rule/effect.

As written, Daemonic Rune has no effect on Force Weapons or weapons that simply have the Instant Death special rule.

Now, he has immunity to Instant Death from Force Weapons but not double-toughness. So it is really just a different kind of EW, and fluffier now to boot.

I didn't think he had true EW. Lucius was a better character back then.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
To be fair Cultists are cheaper and can be surprising in some instances( MoK cultists that delivers 4A each).

My beef with Cultists is that aparts for their cheapness, they don't have anything else.

In 3rd and 3.5( yeah i know again), at least they could be infiltrators/scouts and be equiped with plasmas/meltas.

For some reasons they don't have infiltrator, when its the whole point of Cultists..., they lie in wait of a Chaos incursion somewhere in the depth of a Hivecity and strike when you least expect them when the time is right.

Cultists aren't cheap though. Compare them to guardsmen. Same cost, worse equipment and options.

Also, cultists are 4PPM, 20% cheaper than Guardsmen.

They have to pay 1 point for a better gun though so it ends up evening out.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
They have to pay 1 point for a better gun though so it ends up evening out.

They lose an extra attack in the process though. The gun is not strictly better.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Are you sure he was EW?

He had a Deamonic Rune.

"The Chaos Champion as been gifted with a Deamonic Rune, a mighty symbol of the Powers of the Dark Gods.
Their power flows through the Rune, demonstrating the favour confered onto such Champion.
Such an individual as been marked for greatness and cannot be easely killed."

Unsaved attacks whose Strenghts are at least double the models thoughness, will cause a single Wound instead of an Instant Death.

Wich for the time correspond with EW, since there was no USR and each codex had each of their rules written in it, wich would occure in multiple versions or interpretations of the same rule/effect.

As written, Daemonic Rune has no effect on Force Weapons or weapons that simply have the Instant Death special rule.

Now, he has immunity to Instant Death from Force Weapons but not double-toughness. So it is really just a different kind of EW, and fluffier now to boot.

At the time there was no Instant Death USR, and Force Weapons rule was "...if the model is wounded, it is removed from play...", there was no safefail Vs Force weapons back then, since Force Weapons was a rare equipement, exception of Collars of Khorne who gave their bearers immunity to Force Weapons and could ignore Psy Powers on a 2+ roll, wich Kharn obviously had.

Its with the 4th Ed codex that the Collars dissapeared, and that Kharn gained the Blood God Blessing instead, wich does exactly the same thing.

Let me rephrase this, KHARN WAS BETTER, for just 20points extra, i would have been okay if he kept his rules and wargear as they where and costed 190-200 personaly.

The only two things he gained that he did not have back then is the Hatred and the second D6 to penetrate armors.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
They have to pay 1 point for a better gun though so it ends up evening out.

They lose an extra attack in the process though. The gun is not strictly better.

More of a reason they shouldn't have to pay for it. should be a free upgrade. Cultist need more options, as it stands they are crappy guardsmen.

Okay but like I said Lucius was better back then. Emperor's Children were in general very strong.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I dont ever rememner Kharn being 4W EW. For 160 points he gets the job done. Smashfecker clocks in at 250 points with all the toys so yeah Kharn is a great bargain for what he does.

Kharn dies to a round of Krak Missiles EASILY. That's not a bargain.

Who ever puts Kharn by himself against a 'round' of krak missiles?

That's without the cost of a retinue. If you look at the Kharn's cost with his durability, it is junk. He only has a 3+, 5++, W3, and no EW. Even IF he strikes at AP2 I5, it isn't good. Even Azrael, who isn't a killing machine whatsoever, can kill Kharn within a few rounds.

You can always say a character won't be by themselves, but that's just refusing to acknowledge the downsides to a character.

Thats not true, sometimes a character neither comes with a squad nor has the independent character rule (in this situation you can say the can't say the character won't be by themself). Characters joining units is a basic synergy in Warhammer, ignoring that is like ignoring devestators being able to upgrade to krak missile launchers!

You're right that we mustn't refuse to acknowledge the downsides to a character. Not being able to buddy up is a downside to a character; a downside which Kharn doesn't have. No, Kharn is able to buddy up, but truthfully he isn't TOO good at it (on account of his obsessive compulsion to take skulls in combat).

On the topic, one downside of Kharn is he can't use Nurgle Spawn as a congaline delivery system to hurry him into combat, instead he must travel with unarked or khorne spawn, bikes or jumpers to get a decent chance of early charging.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Okay but like I said Lucius was better back then. Emperor's Children were in general very strong.

My Copy of the codex disagree with you.


196pts, WS5 BS5 S5 T4 W3 I5 A3 LD10 SV3+.

Aura of acquisence, Armor of shrieking Souls, Lash of Torments, Power weapon, MoS, Combat Drugs.

Martial Pride; Lucius attacks are raised to 5 if he is in BtB with a model that has WS5 or more, he as 2 attacks if he is in BtB with a model that as WS2 or less.

Armor of Shrieking Souls, give him a 4++ save and counts as equipped with a Doom Siren.

Lash of Torment; inflict -1 on LD rolls if Lucius killed a model with the Lash, allows Lucius to hit models that are outside the danger zone( the 2" area around a model that is engaged).

Aura of acquisence Models that fails morale test Vs a model/unit with this rule, doesn't flee and stay locked in CC.

Combat Drugs; at the start of the assault phase, choose 3 effects from the drugs chart, they last until the end of the assault phase.
Roll a D6 for each power choosen, the model loss a wound on any double, this wound cannot be saved in anyway, if a triple is rolled the model Dies outright, if you roll only one die, there is obviously no way to harm the model.
-Move through terrain like rule( additional dice for moving in terrain)
-+1WS
-+1Str
- the model ignores the first wound caused to him during this phase as long that it is not inflicted by an "Instant Death"
-+1Attack.

...i really fail to see how Lucius was better...

And sonic weaponry was worse back then, the max was AP4 and doom siren was simply a flamer, Str4 Ap5.

blastmaster, Varied frequency 36" Str 5 AP 5 assault 2, pinning
Fixed frequency 36" Str8 AP4 Heavy 1 blast

Sonic blaster 24" Str4 Ap5 assault 2 or heavy 3.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
To be fair Cultists are cheaper and can be surprising in some instances( MoK cultists that delivers 4A each).

My beef with Cultists is that aparts for their cheapness, they don't have anything else.

In 3rd and 3.5( yeah i know again), at least they could be infiltrators/scouts and be equiped with plasmas/meltas.

For some reasons they don't have infiltrator, when its the whole point of Cultists..., they lie in wait of a Chaos incursion somewhere in the depth of a Hivecity and strike when you least expect them when the time is right.

Cultists aren't cheap though. Compare them to guardsmen. Same cost, worse equipment and options.

Also, cultists are 4PPM, 20% cheaper than Guardsmen.

That's what I was saying earlier. 20 Guardsmen w/Lasguns vs 20 Cultists with Autoguns. Same price, everything the same except save. On average these 2 units in a vaccuum will result in 1/6 more cultists dying every round because of that meaningless orky armour save. But when not in a vacuum, Guardsmen have tanks and orders out the wazoo, and Cultists have barely any vehicles or support apart from Typulhus

Combat drugs, always hits first, can hit enemy models at high inititiative when not engaged... Aura so you don't have to worry about getting shot up next turn...

 Deadshot wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
To be fair Cultists are cheaper and can be surprising in some instances( MoK cultists that delivers 4A each).

My beef with Cultists is that aparts for their cheapness, they don't have anything else.

In 3rd and 3.5( yeah i know again), at least they could be infiltrators/scouts and be equiped with plasmas/meltas.

For some reasons they don't have infiltrator, when its the whole point of Cultists..., they lie in wait of a Chaos incursion somewhere in the depth of a Hivecity and strike when you least expect them when the time is right.

Cultists aren't cheap though. Compare them to guardsmen. Same cost, worse equipment and options.

Also, cultists are 4PPM, 20% cheaper than Guardsmen.

That's what I was saying earlier. 20 Guardsmen w/Lasguns vs 20 Cultists with Autoguns. Same price, everything the same except save. On average these 2 units in a vaccuum will result in 1/6 more cultists dying every round because of that meaningless orky armour save. But when not in a vacuum, Guardsmen have tanks and orders out the wazoo, and Cultists have barely any vehicles or support apart from Typulhus

Do the 20 cultists with close combat weapons vs 20 guardsmen with lasguns in close combat. Cultists are cheaper, and have an extra attack but worst save. On average, these two units in a vacuum will result in... *does math* 5 wounds from the guardsmen to the cultists and 7 wounds from the cultists to the guardsmen, roughly. OMG! A cheaper unit is killing my more expensive unit! Guardsmen are so underpowered.

I hate direct unit comparisons like that. The Cultists have the option of being 20% cheaper than guardsmen, and are situationally better. Stop trying to force them into role they don't do well. Unless you want me to start complaining that Wyverns should be as good at close combat as Obliterators because they cost the same.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
To be fair Cultists are cheaper and can be surprising in some instances( MoK cultists that delivers 4A each).

My beef with Cultists is that aparts for their cheapness, they don't have anything else.

In 3rd and 3.5( yeah i know again), at least they could be infiltrators/scouts and be equiped with plasmas/meltas.

For some reasons they don't have infiltrator, when its the whole point of Cultists..., they lie in wait of a Chaos incursion somewhere in the depth of a Hivecity and strike when you least expect them when the time is right.

Cultists aren't cheap though. Compare them to guardsmen. Same cost, worse equipment and options.

Also, cultists are 4PPM, 20% cheaper than Guardsmen.

That's what I was saying earlier. 20 Guardsmen w/Lasguns vs 20 Cultists with Autoguns. Same price, everything the same except save. On average these 2 units in a vaccuum will result in 1/6 more cultists dying every round because of that meaningless orky armour save. But when not in a vacuum, Guardsmen have tanks and orders out the wazoo, and Cultists have barely any vehicles or support apart from Typulhus

Do the 20 cultists with close combat weapons vs 20 guardsmen with lasguns in close combat. Cultists are cheaper, and have an extra attack but worst save. On average, these two units in a vacuum will result in... *does math* 5 wounds from the guardsmen to the cultists and 7 wounds from the cultists to the guardsmen, roughly. OMG! A cheaper unit is killing my more expensive unit! Guardsmen are so underpowered.

I hate direct unit comparisons like that. The Cultists have the option of being 20% cheaper than guardsmen, and are situationally better. Stop trying to force them into role they don't do well. Unless you want me to start complaining that Wyverns should be as good at close combat as Obliterators because they cost the same.

Except that the Cultists now have half the range of the Guardsmen, and should they come into range to shoot their own pistols the Guardsmen have twice the firepower, plus the Cultists want that charge so Guardsmen can just keep kiteing. Then you have overwatch to consider.

Yeah, 20 guardsmen beat the 20 ccw cultists... the cultists never made it to cc.

How many cultist will die to overwatch before they even get to combat.

If you are attempting to assault with cultists you are definitely doing something wrong .

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Oh come on Martel, don't buy into that Mutilators/Warp Talon garbage.

Warp Talons are even more overcosted than SG, but BA have nothing like mutilators in terms of slot efficiency.

They should give cultist more gun options. It's a shame to see there sole use being sit on an objective and try not to die. At least in KDK them dying helps.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
It's too late, he already has.

It 'confirms' his belief that BA with their grav weapons are actually worse than us...

Regular grav guns fail me constantly between cover, lack of shots, and lack of ability to reroll wounds. Grav cannons are the real grav weapons, and BA don't have them.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
They should give cultist more gun options. It's a shame to see there sole use being sit on an objective and try not to die. At least in KDK them dying helps.

^^ This !!!

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If you are attempting to assault with cultists you are definitely doing something wrong .

Killed GK's marines with my cultists, they where KDK cultists but still.

PA GK's come close shoot at the poor sods, they manage to survive with a mix of lucky covers and FnP rolls, GK's fail the charge into the ruins, Cultists assault the GK's loose only one guy due to Overwatch, they manage to kill 3 Gk's!!!, GK's flee off the board, useless to say that everyone was suprised and that the Cultists had free acces to all the booze they could get their pawns on!

Sometimes things takes a turn in the most surprising ways.

Cultists can do well against units with relatively few quality attacks, especially if KDK. They just drown the enemies in attacks, and the WS chart ensures not enough hits get through to matter.

Really, that and going to ground is the only use for cultists I've seen. Their shooting is pretty limited against most targets, but that many attacks off the charge is nice.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If you are attempting to assault with cultists you are definitely doing something wrong .

Killed GK's marines with my cultists, they where KDK cultists but still.

PA GK's come close shoot at the poor sods, they manage to survive with a mix of lucky covers and FnP rolls, GK's fail the charge into the ruins, Cultists assault the GK's loose only one guy due to Overwatch, they manage to kill 3 Gk's!!!, GK's flee off the board, useless to say that everyone was suprised and that the Cultists had free acces to all the booze they could get their pawns on!

Sometimes things takes a turn in the most surprising ways.

Cultists are great for a low costed objective secured. I remember one time my Bloodthirster died to a lowly grot - we all have those stories.

Now if only KDK was in the CSM codex like it should be... along with all the other daemon-kin and god specific allies and forces...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Also, cultists are 4PPM, 20% cheaper than Guardsmen.

With CCW, not with the same equipment. I prefer to take them without autoguns

HoundsofDemos wrote:
They have to pay 1 point for a better gun though so it ends up evening out.

Base is higher though - 10 IG with lasguns and 5+ is 50 points, 10 Cultists with autoguns and 6+ is 60 points (50 +10 for autoguns).

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
They have to pay 1 point for a better gun though so it ends up evening out.

They lose an extra attack in the process though. The gun is not strictly better.

I prefer them without the autogun, mostly. However, as a cushion for Havocs they can be pretty decent, or simply to help them behind an Aegis Defence Line. 35 Cultists behind a 4+ cover takes time to clear.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Do the 20 cultists with close combat weapons vs 20 guardsmen with lasguns in close combat. Cultists are cheaper, and have an extra attack but worst save. On average, these two units in a vacuum will result in... *does math* 5 wounds from the guardsmen to the cultists and 7 wounds from the cultists to the guardsmen, roughly. OMG! A cheaper unit is killing my more expensive unit! Guardsmen are so underpowered.

I hate direct unit comparisons like that. The Cultists have the option of being 20% cheaper than guardsmen, and are situationally better. Stop trying to force them into role they don't do well. Unless you want me to start complaining that Wyverns should be as good at close combat as Obliterators because they cost the same.

20 Cultists would get shredded by lasgun fire.

Now, let's take 10 Cultist with CCWs - that's 50 points. Then take 10 IG. They start so the Cultists get within 24", then the IG fire a round of shooting. 9 shots=4.5 hits, equals 2.25 wounds(5/6) = 1.88 dead. Round up to 2 wounds. Cultists then move so they are within 12", but outside charge range. They fire 8 pistols =4 hits, 2 wounds(2/3)= 1.33, round down to 1.

Next round the IG open fire. 17 shots with lasguns = 8.5 hits, equals 4.25 wounds (5/6) = 3.54 dead, round up to 4. This triggers a LD test.

Cultists move up. The 4 remaining fire, 2 hits, 1 wound (2/3), likely one dead IG. They charge, IG fire overwatch with 15 shots. 2 hits, 1 wound (5/6), probably one dead. The Cultists make it into CC and go at the same time. There's now 3 Cultists and 8 IG.

Sure, the rounding doesn't help the Cultists, but if Cultists need to face IG fire for two rounds, they're gonna get shredded.

I do agree it's not a 100% fair comparison. I usually use my Cultists (as most people) to hold objectives in groups of 10-20, but I also enjoy the CCW variant, specifically with MoS. However, they rarely get into CC, and if they do, it's only because my opponent is very new. You don't want 35 CCW MoS Cultists with 3 flamers at 7" away from anything.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
How many cultist will die to overwatch before they even get to combat.

Against 10 IG? 10 Overwatch shouts - 1.5 hits, 0.75 wounds(5/6), so 0.625 Cultists per 10 IG.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If you are attempting to assault with cultists you are definitely doing something wrong .

I kind of agree. I run them the same reason you like Dreadclaws and Contemptors. They're fun, but they're not good. However, in the last half year I've taken down a Flyrant, Marneus Calgar, and a Daemon Prince with my 35-man CCW Cultist MoS squad.

"I kind of agree. I run them the same reason you like Dreadclaws and Contemptors. They're fun, but they're not good. However, in the last half year I've taken down a Flyrant, Marneus Calgar, and a Daemon Prince with my 35-man CCW Cultist MoS squad. "

Killed a Brother Captain with my 6 KDK cultist, after getting charged. Got FNP, he failed to get force off, and fluffed all but one attack, whcih i saved with FNP. DId 2 wounds back, he stays, following round do one wound, killing him. ABsolutely hilarious

I've also charged orks in the open - only 5 orks left, but 33 atacks (KDK again) gitting first, ittign on 4s and wounding on 5s was more than enough.

Do KDK cultists have furious charge ?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Do KDK cultists have furious charge ?

No they;re not Daemons of Khorne

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Do KDK cultists have furious charge ?

No they;re not Daemons of Khorne

They can get FC however, just only at the same time as fnp if in the big detachment.

That's pretty good for cultists.

I've once used them to strike like ork boyz. 7 cultists pulled 8 wounds on a power armored squad of 4 marines. Than all 8 wounds got saved, 1 cultist died and they got swept. But still. 7 dudes pulling 8 wounds in nice. People tend to underestimate them.

You know a melee squad sucks when they get dumpster'd by Tacticals, ahaha.

My Tactical marines have done surprisingly good in combat at times. I wouldn't discount them so easily.

I have also seen Avatars die to Gretchin overwatch.

 War Kitten wrote:
My Tactical marines have done surprisingly good in combat at times. I wouldn't discount them so easily.

Statistically, they are inferior to guardsmen if all guardsmen could get into combat.

I'm aware of that fact Martel. I'm just stating that I've had several instances where my Tactical Marines have won combats that they really shouldn't have. Just because they are the baseline unit for comparisons in many cases doesn't mean they should be discounted

This is why the Fire Emblem community has a phrase: PEMN. It stands for "Personal Experience Means Nothing". It is required when people go into a thread (or create a new one) defending bad characters

That's nice.

Regardless, experience matters a lot if you intend to win anything other than an argument on a web forum.

Ok then. I'll go away now. Sorry then

 War Kitten wrote:
Ok then. I'll go away now. Sorry then

Please don't.

Real-life experiences not conforming exactly to theoretical models is more common than not.

If your Tacs do fine in combat, it might be relevant to your own use and your meta. Which means we get to learn something.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Ok then. I'll go away now. Sorry then

Please don't.

Real-life experiences not conforming exactly to theoretical models is more common than not.

If your Tacs do fine in combat, it might be relevant to your own use and your meta. Which means we get to learn something.

Not in science, though I can easily see it being true in any type of social model (politics, economics...).
Regardless, personal experience only matters if it's
1) Relevant
2) Repeatable
because that usually indicates that something is not being accounted for in the "theoretical model", although I would strongly advise against calling mathhammer a model of any kind. It doesn't do anything but the simplest of probabilities. There is no standard deviation, which would give us a lot of information and explain why some people have great personal experiences with models and others perform poorly.

If your Tacs do well in combat, even without the personal story, it already tells us a few things that are most likely true about your meta
1) Your meta includes a lot of units that are shooty but awful at combat. Jetbikes, Dire Avengers, Tau everything, Guardsmen. There are units that break even or lose to Tacs in combat, they just aren't common or tacs are too slow and usually better off rapid firing due to plasma.
2) Your meta lacks things that are good at CC if they routinely do well. Wraiths, TWC, things of that nature are most likely absent.
3) Your Tac build could include a more CC loadout. Flamers/melta over plasma, CTs that help with assault, and possibly a good weapon on the sarge
4) You roll above average.
5) Your enemy rolls below average (like the time a WK whiffed a mutilator).

I'm not saying all of these are true, but from math hammer we can deduce that it's quite possible that a few of these are true and are getting glossed over. In this game, it's very rare that math hammer ends up being completely wrong, since the game is relatively straight forward and simple in terms of strategy. You never see something like "Okay, you activate and push this guy. Now you activate and use enrage. Now you activate and cast leash and feat. Now you activate and cast paralytic aura. Now you activate and cast rush. Now my really slow unit has +7 speed, +3 to hit and +2 to damage! " It's more "Okay, you get a re-roll" or "You re-roll 1's". Some armies do more, like Tau or formations, and those are quickly becoming abused and hard to account for (do we include them in the math? How often?).

There is a reason why every game discussion revolves around leaving personal experiences out of it. It's not unique to 40k. Personal experiences might cause us to re-look at numbers to see what was missed, but they aren't the key point in a discussion unless numbers are absent for some reason.


I'm not sure what I'm supposed to learn if a Gretchin overwatch kills an Avatar (was it on full wounds?) because the odds of that occurring are low enough where I'm likely never going to see it again personally. To Ashirya, how many times has gretchin overwatch killed an Avatar? I'll be surprised if it's more than 2 unless she's a very frequent player.

@Aki: Give me the dice. I will break your feeble science facts with my family's curse and my inability to roll 1's & 2's almost exclusively when playing Marines!
(I once got booted out of my Finite class for single-handedly skewing the entire classes results in a dice rolling experiment. )

I also tend to roll very poorly. My long fangs in 5th were known for having the worst aim and being forever drunk. I was lucky if I hit 1/3rd of the time with them.

That doesn't mean they were a bad unit however. It just means I didn't use them. I would still have recommended them to everyone playing SW in that edition.

@ Experiment : have you been building dice towers to render proper tribute to Tzeentch?

Only on my opponents turn

As it turns out, guardsmen AREN'T better in CC because you very rarely can get them all into CC. That's why the blob with axes works because you only need to get the axes in CC.

The real crime of tac marines is being way too generalist to the point of not being able to do anything well. Without a niche ability like bladestorm or Gauss, you are left trying to play the special weapon guessing game AND coughing up more points.

If tac marines could retroactively change their gear once the battle started, they'd be a lot more useful.

Tac marines deserve to have their combat knives recognised as part of their wargear.

So silly that it exists in fluff and models but not rules.

Akiasura wrote:
'm not sure what I'm supposed to learn if a Gretchin overwatch kills an Avatar (was it on full wounds?) because the odds of that occurring are low enough where I'm likely never going to see it again personally. To Ashirya, how many times has gretchin overwatch killed an Avatar? I'll be surprised if it's more than 2 unless she's a very frequent player.

It was on full wounds, and it only happened once, but it pretty much won the Ork player the game.

And nobody liked it beyond the initial laughs. We found it incredibly stupid that complete unpredictable randomess can so thoroughly screw someone over no matter how good they are.

That is yet another reason I find myself doing more computer gaming these days.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
'm not sure what I'm supposed to learn if a Gretchin overwatch kills an Avatar (was it on full wounds?) because the odds of that occurring are low enough where I'm likely never going to see it again personally. To Ashirya, how many times has gretchin overwatch killed an Avatar? I'll be surprised if it's more than 2 unless she's a very frequent player.

It was on full wounds, and it only happened once, but it pretty much won the Ork player the game.

And nobody liked it beyond the initial laughs. We found it incredibly stupid that complete unpredictable randomess can so thoroughly screw someone over no matter how good they are.

That is yet another reason I find myself doing more computer gaming these days.

I agree that it can be really annoying, especially since there isn't a whole lot you can do to mitigate that kind of fluke. Nothing reasonable anyway.

I really wish that 40k would move to a 2d6 system although it would become a long process to roll buckets of dice (80*2d6 for a big mob of boyz reaching CC? No thanks!). The bell curve that you get in games like WMH makes the luck factor a lot less, though it still comes up. It also gets you a target number to shoot for (usually you want a 6+ for whatever you are attempting, with 9+ being considered risky without boosting). In 40k it's a 3+, but you really want re-rolls or just buckets of numbers to force something to be closer to a statistical mean.

Very annoying. Then again, I get annoyed with games like X-Com and their RNG

nareik wrote:
Tac marines deserve to have their combat knives recognised as part of their wargear.

So silly that it exists in fluff and models but not rules.

No. no they don't.
If Loyalists get ccw's as part of their basic gear, then we may as well just go ahead an retcon Chaos Marines entirely, and re-release them instead as Chapter Tactics: Misunderstood Problem Marines.

Pistol/ccw option is literally the one and only thing Chaos Marines have left to them that can make them different, and potentially equal to those thieving Loyalist scum!

Yoyoyo wrote:
@ Experiment : have you been building dice towers to render proper tribute to Tzeentch?

I use blue & gold dice for my Tzeentch Daemons.

Oddly enough, whenever I play Daemons of any flavour, (except Nurgle 'cause screw Nurgle!), my dice are typically on fire - especially when rolling those basic 5++ saves. Yet whenever I play Marines of any flavour, suddenly my dice are cursed to never pass more than 30% of my armour saves. (and that's on a good day!)

It's obviously a part of Tzeentch's great plan, somehow...

I've also never once passed Cypher's old 4++ on 3D6 save. After failing it with a re-roll, my local store banned me from using the model again, as it was deemed too dangerous due to how everyone kept laughing until their sides hurt.

nareik wrote:
Tac marines deserve to have their combat knives recognised as part of their wargear.

So silly that it exists in fluff and models but not rules.

I'd oppose this since your now stepping on the tows of both chaos marines and space wolves.


Loyalist do have this option using the space shark chapter tactic from the IA books but at a heavy trade off.

Only stepping on the toes of space wolves and CSMs in regards to the fact that these factions marines actually remember how to use their combat knives after they graduate from scout school/wherever CSMs come from.

As I said, it is a fluff and modelling issue (not a game mechanic issue).

I think it really speaks of the problems that CSM have as a codex that one of the few perks they have over loyallists is that some remember how to use their combat knives (for a price).

CSMs deserve to be treated better than that and have a real perk, just as tactical marine basic equipment should match the fluff.

If tac marines were to get combat knives on their profile, I guess we could consider upgrading chainswords to AP5 (amongst other things).