Byte wrote: -snip-
Cute list? Smug much? Seems you have a very high opinion of your game. Good for you I guess. You got it all figured out.
"Cute list" is a praise, not an insult-at least from the way of speaking in my area. maybe it sounds differently when written over the internet.
What I was practically saying (and wrote clearly in the end of the post), is that its a pretty darn solid list. it has a few weaknesses I pointed out-but its strong.
Arson Fire wrote: Incorrect. MCs do not get two penetration dice.
IF they smash (giving them a single attack), they can re-roll the penetration dice. Otherwise they just get a single dice like everyone else.
My apologies. Not having any MCs, I didn't notice this rule change. Now I wonder if I've been cheated in some of my games. I suspect so, given the rate at which MCs have been penetrating my dreads.
Now I have having a dreaded suspicion.
Martel, this MC rules are not around from the days of 5th. MC smashing also reduces to 1 attack in 7th. (and 7th is around for quite a while)
What are the odds that many of the things that we suggested and you outright called to not work, were because you are using a mash of old and new rules that greatly reduce their effectiveness?
Understood. Every list is going to have holes. Particularly getting a preview or being able to tailor. Adding the drone net at 2k adds a lot of utility for sure.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I know Blood Angels are in a gak spot, but I didn't realize Martel was being cheated against either.
Martel732 wrote:It's actually been a while since I closely paid attention to the dice that MCs were throwing against vehicles/walkers. It's not like the Eldar ever have to assault a furioso. It's partially my fault for assuming MCs murder everything they touch without trying hard.
Even though you may have been cheated against (to give the other person the benefit of the doubt, perhaps unintentionally), I don't think it would have made a huge difference. Like you said, it's not like MCs assault dreads or tanks very often anyhow, but really, it's almost always no contest if they do. It's just being crapped on even harder
Mass dreads won't work because of shooty reasons. Riptides are bullies in cc and would only charge crippled squads. Using a dread to cc a riptide was never going to happen to begin with.
I think it is Tau player's holding on to the idea they are still weak in close combat from previous editions. They really aren't anymore. The shift in 7th to a primarily shooting game means close combat armies suffer a lot of attrition getting to the enemy. If a unit does manage to assault it is unlikely to still be viable after that. Most of my units are no longer combat effective after their first assault.
Arson Fire wrote: Incorrect. MCs do not get two penetration dice.
IF they smash (giving them a single attack), they can re-roll the penetration dice. Otherwise they just get a single dice like everyone else.
My apologies. Not having any MCs, I didn't notice this rule change. Now I wonder if I've been cheated in some of my games. I suspect so, given the rate at which MCs have been penetrating my dreads.
Knowing the rules is a first step to having opinions, I believe. Your frequent rants about the Fragility of AV 13 may have been somewhat affected by this misunderstanding. Maybe. I don't know.
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Crimson Devil wrote: I think it is Tau player's holding on to the idea they are still weak in close combat from previous editions. They really aren't anymore. The shift in 7th to a primarily shooting game means close combat armies suffer a lot of attrition getting to the enemy. If a unit does manage to assault it is unlikely to still be viable after that. Most of my units are no longer combat effective after their first assault.
anyone who claims we're not weak in combat is lying. That's a fact. Attrition happened in every edition ever. this is a totally false argument.
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I agree it is very unlikely, and people telling you to melee a Riptide with a Dreadnought don't seem to get how stupid an idea that is.
Your lack of adaptability, not the instruction, are the problem here Slayer-Fan. if you simply refuse to embrace this solution, you are going to lose a lot of game to the Tau Empire and spend a lot of time in a perpetual online hate-fest wit hthe Codex. That's your choice but it isn't fair minded.
You're making me regret taking you off my ignore list.
I'm not lying. You obviously don't know how to play Tau well.
Once an assault unit get through all of the bubble wrap around your Riptides, there simply not much left to hit you with. And that's assuming you haven't counter assaulted first.
I'm not lying. You obviously don't know how to play Tau well.
Once an assault unit get through all of the bubble wrap around your Riptides, there simply not much left to hit you with. And that's assuming you haven't counter assaulted first.
Those are two completely different things. Just because you say the tau may SHOOT and kill the assault unit before it arrives does NOT mean the Tau are good in CClol
"Your frequent rants about the Fragility of AV 13 may have been somewhat affected by this misunderstanding."
No, not really. I take a huge percentage of my losses in the shooting phase. Also remember that the Furioso sides are only 12. And the Tau get a formation that only hits rear armor. I get that you think spamming Furiosos (which are overcosted) is good, I get that.
I'm not lying. You obviously don't know how to play Tau well.
Once an assault unit get through all of the bubble wrap around your Riptides, there simply not much left to hit you with. And that's assuming you haven't counter assaulted first.
Those are two completely different things. Just because you say the tau may SHOOT and kill the assault unit before it arrives does NOT mean the Tau are good in CClol
They are good against the remnants of crippled squads. That's the point.
I'm not lying. You obviously don't know how to play Tau well.
Once an assault unit get through all of the bubble wrap around your Riptides, there simply not much left to hit you with. And that's assuming you haven't counter assaulted first.
I'm not good with Tau? Dang.
On the subject of bubble wrapping, I have a Batrep that is between my Dark Eldar and Imprial Guard which illustrates pretty well why bubble wrapping is kind of a better concept than it is a reality. But sure. If there was enough of it at the perfect angle and it was mobile enough to keep up with the Riptide (which i assume you're panning on moving at some point) and all kinds of things were true, sure.
Two ways to eliminate the bubble wrap and both work fine: assault from an angle that pulls the bubble wrap, clearing a path for unit B. Option two: simple expedient of a couple flamers/Heavy flamers /Liquifiers/whatever gets it done without the need to "actually" target the intervening unit. Option C: Multicharge. There is literally no reason not to multicharge Tau empire. You absolutely positively must because their overwatch is hitting you whether you like it or not and one extra attack is less impactful than tying up their shooting for the entire next round.
My Retributors do it for me all the time when my Battle Conclave needs to get somewhere. The Dark Eldar Wracks and/or Grotesques do it for me as well. And in the case of Space marines ,well, no problem there either. Winning a combat or losing it with the offending bubble wrap is cool, but you're really doing it to get at the real target right?
So if you ARE concerned about bubble wrap, do the ame thing you should always do. Saturate, pull the offending bubble wrap out of the way and go on in. Or flaminate it. Or both. Yeah the Heavy flamer wont hurt the Riptide often but that's not really why you did it right?
Have you looked at the vehicle armor diagram? The sides are HUGE and the front is small. It's very easy for units to get on the AV 12 sides. Especially when the thing is close.
Have you looked at the vehicle armor diagram? The sides are HUGE and the front is small. It's very easy for units to get on the AV 12 sides. Especially when the thing is close.
I'm uh...pretty sure... I've seen a dreadnought. yes Martel. i am pretty confident i am familiar with the geometry there. I Also know that I can premeasure how far the Riptide and what not can move...and angle accordingly.
Have you looked at the vehicle armor diagram? The sides are HUGE and the front is small. It's very easy for units to get on the AV 12 sides. Especially when the thing is close.
I'm uh...pretty sure... I've seen a dreadnought. yes Martel. i am pretty confident i am familiar with the geometry there. I Also know that I can premeasure how far the Riptide and what not can move...and angle accordingly.
You can too.
I think your're missing the point of why the Furioso is not a good unit in general.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Being weak in combat is moot when most units won't see combat.
Thats on the opposig General...not Tau empire.
Pretty sure anyone playing Tau is allowed to use JSJ, Overwatch, and HYMP.
I'm pretty sure the board isnt unlimited in size?. Mine isn't. maybe we have a different meta here that ues smaller boards. lol.
So.. What you're saying is that you need to kill the High Yield Missile Pods? Is the question whether you should or not? I'm not understanding your comment. I think its fairly obvious that the plan would be to simply hit them with the crushing weight of the army in melee, undertanding that you will in fact lose some. Right?
So you're asking me what to do if they happen to take the incredibly common High Yield missils Pods intheir force? Same answer.
Have you looked at the vehicle armor diagram? The sides are HUGE and the front is small. It's very easy for units to get on the AV 12 sides. Especially when the thing is close.
I'm uh...pretty sure... I've seen a dreadnought. yes Martel. i am pretty confident i am familiar with the geometry there. I Also know that I can premeasure how far the Riptide and what not can move...and angle accordingly.
You can too.
I think your're missing the point of why the Furioso is not a good unit in general.
I think i answered your question, did i not? premeasure and angle it? Write that down and use it. Its good information.
NAW: riptides cannot self buff by 2. either they are 3 units firing together to get +1 bs, or they are 3 in 1 unit, to get fire teams +1 bs. by wording on the rules, you'd need 9 riptides all firing at the same thing to have them self buff by 2.
This depends on how you play CFP. RAW 3 separate riptides all firing together using CFP would get +2
Exactly. This is how I'd play them. But I don't want to field any firewarriord, so I'm stuck with drone.net and the wing.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Being weak in combat is moot when most units won't see combat.
True, but suits aren't actually that weak compared to stuff that's not CC oriented to begin with. My Tau buddy does at times see it as advantageous to charge my SoB with his suits, like when he would only get shot up despite using the special jump move. Overwatch from a decimated squad rarely kills a suit, and then he's at least protected from further shooting.
Then again, he has had to adopt other unothodox tactics against me. Fish of Fury in his army means he drives Devilfish at me so I can blow them up and lose girls to the explosions. :-)
I think i answered your question, did i not? premeasure and angle it? Write that down and use it. Its good information.
A patronising attitude will do you no favours.
Him shooting past what i said and not acknowledging it doesnt do him any.
99% of the forum shoots down what you say because it is ridiculous or doesn't help or shows off an ego that isn't deserved. It can also be a combination of all the above.
Your posts are usually long paragraphs just to say L2P.
I think i answered your question, did i not? premeasure and angle it? Write that down and use it. Its good information.
A patronising attitude will do you no favours.
Him shooting past what i said and not acknowledging it doesnt do him any.
99% of the forum shoots down what you say because it is ridiculous or doesn't help or shows off an ego that isn't deserved. It can also be a combination of all the above.
Your posts are usually long paragraphs just to say L2P.
And yours are short ones appealing to higher authority and showing a bunch of non-tactical theory hammering as "proof".
You think that my Tau Empire have not felt the sting of the things I am telling you to try? They have and that's why I am telling you to try it. I haven't seen an army yet that could outshoot us. I have seen a hundred armies that could punch us squarely in the jaw and i have seen even more that could have and didn't...and died because of that choice.
So you go right on trying to outshoot us OR... you take my advice and punch the Tau Empire in the face. I hope you find some way to prove to me that we cvan be outshot. Go ahead. And while you're at it show us how black is actually white.
Until then, I think people would be well advised not to worry about shooting Tau. Get in there and annihilate us with what every army owns: the tools to win cloe combat against nigh any unit we have.
I think i answered your question, did i not? premeasure and angle it? Write that down and use it. Its good information.
A patronising attitude will do you no favours.
Him shooting past what i said and not acknowledging it doesnt do him any.
99% of the forum shoots down what you say because it is ridiculous or doesn't help or shows off an ego that isn't deserved. It can also be a combination of all the above.
Your posts are usually long paragraphs just to say L2P.
And yours are short ones appealing to higher authority and showing a bunch of non-tactical theory hammering as "proof".
You think that my Tau Empire have not felt the sting of the things I am telling you to try? They have and that's why I am telling you to try it. I haven't seen an army yet that could outshoot us. I have seen a hundred armies that could punch us squarely in the jaw and i have seen even more that could have and didn't...and died because of that choice.
So you go right on trying to outshoot us OR... you take my advice and punch the Tau Empire in the face. I hope you find some way to prove to me that we cvan be outshot. Go ahead. And while you're at it show us how black is actually white.
Until then, I think people would be well advised not to worry about shooting Tau. Get in there and annihilate us with what every army owns: the tools to win cloe combat against nigh any unit we have.
This. It really annoys me when people complain that Tau kill other armies in a shooting match. They SHOULD. An army that is essentially an auto lose in CC and has zero psychic abilities or defense SHOULD be able to outshoot other armies.
Jancoran, you're slipping past patronising to rude. Reel it in. This thread in general needs to also reconsider some of what you're posting. Just ease up a bit guys and girls, they're toy soldiers.
@notredameguy No, it shouldn't. In an ideal world. it should have tools to counter close combat units like defensive grenades and grav wave generators and the like (though in practice it counters melee simply because it shoots melee before it gets there). It is not at all fair for it to roll over other shooting armies like IG just because Tau are bad at close combat which IG doesn't like either!
Ashiraya wrote: @notredameguy No, it shouldn't. In an ideal world. it should have tools to counter close combat units like defensive grenades and grav wave generators and the like (though in practice it counters melee simply because it shoots melee before it gets there). It is not at all fair for it to roll over other shooting armies like IG just because Tau are bad at close combat which IG doesn't like either!
Than that's a problem with IG, not Tau. An army that has no other strengths other than shooting SHOULD be better at shooting than other armies that have good CC and/or psychic options
Ashiraya wrote: @notredameguy No, it shouldn't. In an ideal world. it should have tools to counter close combat units like defensive grenades and grav wave generators and the like (though in practice it counters melee simply because it shoots melee before it gets there). It is not at all fair for it to roll over other shooting armies like IG just because Tau are bad at close combat which IG doesn't like either!
Than that's a problem with IG, not Tau. An army that has no other strengths other than shooting SHOULD be better at shooting than other armies that have good CC and/or psychic options
In a rule set that so heavily favours shooting, being good at it is a disproportionate advantage.
Ashiraya wrote: @notredameguy No, it shouldn't. In an ideal world. it should have tools to counter close combat units like defensive grenades and grav wave generators and the like (though in practice it counters melee simply because it shoots melee before it gets there). It is not at all fair for it to roll over other shooting armies like IG just because Tau are bad at close combat which IG doesn't like either!
Than that's a problem with IG, not Tau. An army that has no other strengths other than shooting SHOULD be better at shooting than other armies that have good CC and/or psychic options
In a rule set that so heavily favours shooting, being good at it is a disproportionate advantage.
So what? you're saying an army that is one of the worst in the game at CC (beaten maybe only by IG) and IS the worst in the game at both psychic and psychic defense (Having ZERO), they shouldn't be the best at shooting lol?
No, I'm saying that being the best at the thing that is most efficient in terms of removing enemy models is a disproportionate advantage.
I'm not sure I could have said it any more clearly.
Building a competitive assault army is near impossible, building a successful psychic one about as hard, shooting is where it's at. It's not Tau's problem in isolation, it's due to GW's relentless campaign to neuter assault for the last few editions, there's no reason why a poor CC army shouldn't be better at shooting in theory.
Azreal13 wrote: No, I'm saying that being the best at the thing that is most efficient in terms of removing enemy models is a disproportionate advantage.
I'm not sure I could have said it any more clearly.
Building a competitive assault army is near impossible, building a successful psychic one about as hard, shooting is where it's at. It's not Tau's problem in isolation, it's due to GW's relentless campaign to neuter assault for the last few editions, there's no reason why a poor CC army shouldn't be better at shooting in theory.
Ok I agree with that. I agree that assault should be more viable. I was merely stating it shouldn't be a surprise that an army that is horrible at CC and has zero psychic phase is good at shooting.
Martel732 wrote: When I army swapped with Tau, I won most of my CCs. It's pretty easy for a Ritpide to step on two DC or four tac marines.
Yeah eventually lol. On average you will kill 1 per turn. I would gladly have 4 of my tac marines tie up a riptide for several turns lol
The tac marines only lasted two assault phases, so I didn't even miss a shooting phase with the Riptide.
Again, that was from your experience. But on average, only 1 would die per turn. Tying up a 225 point model with less than 60 points of models for the majority of the game is well worth it
WS2 and 3 attacks at I2 is terrible, even with Str 6 AP2
Martel732 wrote: When I army swapped with Tau, I won most of my CCs. It's pretty easy for a Ritpide to step on two DC or four tac marines.
Yeah eventually lol. On average you will kill 1 per turn. I would gladly have 4 of my tac marines tie up a riptide for several turns lol
The tac marines only lasted two assault phases, so I didn't even miss a shooting phase with the Riptide.
Again, that was from your experience. But on average, only 1 would die per turn. Tying up a 225 point model with less than 60 points of models for the majority of the game is well worth it
WS2 and 3 attacks at I2 is terrible, even with Str 6 AP2
You say that, but the math is on your side. Assaulting with a Riptide gave me 4 attacks that hit on 4's, heavily weighted to two hits that wound on 2's and ignore armor. That can be counted on to kill 2 marines very reliably. In future turns, 3 attacks generates 1.5 hits, not 1 on average. The 1.5 hits generates an average of 1.25 wounds, not 1, but that makes it MUCH more likely to generate 2 than if the average were only 1. The Riptide is not as bad in CC as you make it out to be. Again, S6 AP 2 is really good. Each Riptide hit is as valuable as five marine hits vs meqs. That means a Riptide punches like 15 tactical marines at WS 2. It punches like 20 tac marines when it charges. I don't see how you can say that's bad, given that it can shoot first.
"WS2 and 3 attacks at I2 is terrible, even with Str 6 AP2"
You are completely wrong, as WS is the least valuable stat in the game and init doesn't matter on a unit that never dies. The Str and AP completely trump the WS and init. In fact, WS 2 is not really much different than WS 3, because WS 5 is pretty rare in this game. If they really wanted to make Tau bad a CC, then fire warriors would be Str 2 and the Riptide Str 4. THEN they'd be bad.
Martel732 wrote: When I army swapped with Tau, I won most of my CCs. It's pretty easy for a Ritpide to step on two DC or four tac marines.
Yeah eventually lol. On average you will kill 1 per turn. I would gladly have 4 of my tac marines tie up a riptide for several turns lol
The tac marines only lasted two assault phases, so I didn't even miss a shooting phase with the Riptide.
Again, that was from your experience. But on average, only 1 would die per turn. Tying up a 225 point model with less than 60 points of models for the majority of the game is well worth it
WS2 and 3 attacks at I2 is terrible, even with Str 6 AP2
That is funny...cause if you just make that WS3 you just described Tyranid MCs...
Just saying, just because the Riptide doesn't compete with a Dreadknight, doesn't mean it is completely worthelss in CC. Tac Marines are actually one of the best things to tie a Riptide up in CC with because ATSKNF is amazing at just keeping it in place stepping on a marine or two for a couple of turns...but seriously, if Tac Marines get into CC with a Riptide the Tau player has failed at some point or all the marine player has left are Tac Marines, so it isn't really a loss.
EDIT: Just to give an idea;
A Trygon has WS3 S6 I4 5A 3+, Riptide has WS2 S6 I2 3A 2+/5++(5+++)
Against each other, Trygon will win in CC more than likely, but against Tac Marines the Trygon is more likely to die to Krak Grenades and is only doing on average 3 wounds to the Riptides 1.5 wounds. Is this acceptable when you compare what is supposed to be a CCMC vs a pure ranged MC? You are going to get a hell of a lot more mileage out of the Riptide lobbing pie plates and cleaning up small units on the charge than you are with the Trygon and the Trygon cost more points. This becomes less favorable if you compare it to other Tyranid MCs....
EDIT:
Also, just going back to an old point. Are people seriously suggesting that you pin a Riptide? I suggest you go take a look at the rules again...
Martel732 wrote: The sad part is that the Riptide is almost as a good as a dreadknight against Tac marines.
Why is that a "sad part". Dread knight with both a Heavy Psycannon and a Heavy Incinerator has just as much damage output (if not more) than a riptide in shooting and costs less points. Its not meant to be amazing at CC either
Martel732 wrote: The sad part is that the Riptide is almost as a good as a dreadknight against Tac marines.
Why is that a "sad part". Dread knight with both a Heavy Psycannon and a Heavy Incinerator has just as much damage output (if not more) than a riptide in shooting and costs less points. Its not meant to be amazing at CC either
No, it doesn't. The heavy psycannon and incinerator are far inferior to an IA. The DK basically has to suicide itself to use the incinerator, as well. It's not even remotely as good.
Martel732 wrote: The sad part is that the Riptide is almost as a good as a dreadknight against Tac marines.
Why is that a "sad part". Dread knight with both a Heavy Psycannon and a Heavy Incinerator has just as much damage output (if not more) than a riptide in shooting and costs less points. Its not meant to be amazing at CC either
No, it doesn't. The heavy psycannon and incinerator are far inferior to an IA. The DK basically has to suicide itself to use the incinerator, as well. It's not even remotely as good.
Yeah beg to differ. They are both used for different things and that combo on a dread knight can do serious damage. I have done more damage with my dread knights than I have done with my riptides.
Martel732 wrote: When I army swapped with Tau, I won most of my CCs. It's pretty easy for a Ritpide to step on two DC or four tac marines.
Yeah eventually lol. On average you will kill 1 per turn. I would gladly have 4 of my tac marines tie up a riptide for several turns lol
The tac marines only lasted two assault phases, so I didn't even miss a shooting phase with the Riptide.
Again, that was from your experience. But on average, only 1 would die per turn. Tying up a 225 point model with less than 60 points of models for the majority of the game is well worth it
WS2 and 3 attacks at I2 is terrible, even with Str 6 AP2
That is funny...cause if you just make that WS3 you just described Tyranid MCs...
Just saying, just because the Riptide doesn't compete with a Dreadknight, doesn't mean it is completely worthelss in CC. Tac Marines are actually one of the best things to tie a Riptide up in CC with because ATSKNF is amazing at just keeping it in place stepping on a marine or two for a couple of turns...but seriously, if Tac Marines get into CC with a Riptide the Tau player has failed at some point or all the marine player has left are Tac Marines, so it isn't really a loss.
EDIT: Just to give an idea;
A Trygon has WS3 S6 I4 5A 3+, Riptide has WS2 S6 I2 3A 2+/5++(5+++)
Against each other, Trygon will win in CC more than likely, but against Tac Marines the Trygon is more likely to die to Krak Grenades and is only doing on average 3 wounds to the Riptides 1.5 wounds. Is this acceptable when you compare what is supposed to be a CCMC vs a pure ranged MC? You are going to get a hell of a lot more mileage out of the Riptide lobbing pie plates and cleaning up small units on the charge than you are with the Trygon and the Trygon cost more points. This becomes less favorable if you compare it to other Tyranid MCs....
EDIT:
Also, just going back to an old point. Are people seriously suggesting that you pin a Riptide? I suggest you go take a look at the rules again...
Not to rain on your parade or anything, but a Trygon is Weapon Skill 5 and has 6 Attacks base - 5 on its profile and then plus one for having two close combat weapons for a total of 6 base - so it's actually doing 4 wounds on average to Tactical Marines.
Also, the comparisons between Dreadknights and Riptides are amusing to say the least. Without Markerlight support, a Dreadknight is far and away superior to a Riptide at shooting; a Torrent Strength 6 AP4 template that can be on a model that can do a once-per-game 30" move and will usually be moving 12" is brutal, and 6 Strength 7 AP4 Rending shots are better at tank hunting than the Ion Accelerator too while the optional Strength 7 AP4 Rending Large Blast is nice.
Martel732 wrote: The sad part is that the Riptide is almost as a good as a dreadknight against Tac marines.
Why is that a "sad part". Dread knight with both a Heavy Psycannon and a Heavy Incinerator has just as much damage output (if not more) than a riptide in shooting and costs less points. Its not meant to be amazing at CC either
No, it doesn't. The heavy psycannon and incinerator are far inferior to an IA. The DK basically has to suicide itself to use the incinerator, as well. It's not even remotely as good.
Yeah beg to differ. They are both used for different things and that combo on a dread knight can do serious damage. I have done more damage with my dread knights than I have done with my riptides.
I find this incomprehensible since DKs are almost always instantly killed once they are within range. A Riptide gets to fire the entire game.
Martel732 wrote: The sad part is that the Riptide is almost as a good as a dreadknight against Tac marines.
Why is that a "sad part". Dread knight with both a Heavy Psycannon and a Heavy Incinerator has just as much damage output (if not more) than a riptide in shooting and costs less points. Its not meant to be amazing at CC either
No, it doesn't. The heavy psycannon and incinerator are far inferior to an IA. The DK basically has to suicide itself to use the incinerator, as well. It's not even remotely as good.
Yeah beg to differ. They are both used for different things and that combo on a dread knight can do serious damage. I have done more damage with my dread knights than I have done with my riptides.
I find this incomprehensible since DKs are almost always instantly killed once they are within range. A Riptide gets to fire the entire game.
The effective range of a Torrent weapon is 20" before accounting for movement. The Heavy Psycannon has a 24" range. A Dreadknight can very easily give itself a 4+ invulnerable save due to Sanctuary. Your point was?
Martel732 wrote: When I army swapped with Tau, I won most of my CCs. It's pretty easy for a Ritpide to step on two DC or four tac marines.
Yeah eventually lol. On average you will kill 1 per turn. I would gladly have 4 of my tac marines tie up a riptide for several turns lol
The tac marines only lasted two assault phases, so I didn't even miss a shooting phase with the Riptide.
Again, that was from your experience. But on average, only 1 would die per turn. Tying up a 225 point model with less than 60 points of models for the majority of the game is well worth it
WS2 and 3 attacks at I2 is terrible, even with Str 6 AP2
That is funny...cause if you just make that WS3 you just described Tyranid MCs...
Just saying, just because the Riptide doesn't compete with a Dreadknight, doesn't mean it is completely worthelss in CC. Tac Marines are actually one of the best things to tie a Riptide up in CC with because ATSKNF is amazing at just keeping it in place stepping on a marine or two for a couple of turns...but seriously, if Tac Marines get into CC with a Riptide the Tau player has failed at some point or all the marine player has left are Tac Marines, so it isn't really a loss.
EDIT: Just to give an idea;
A Trygon has WS3 S6 I4 5A 3+, Riptide has WS2 S6 I2 3A 2+/5++(5+++)
Against each other, Trygon will win in CC more than likely, but against Tac Marines the Trygon is more likely to die to Krak Grenades and is only doing on average 3 wounds to the Riptides 1.5 wounds. Is this acceptable when you compare what is supposed to be a CCMC vs a pure ranged MC? You are going to get a hell of a lot more mileage out of the Riptide lobbing pie plates and cleaning up small units on the charge than you are with the Trygon and the Trygon cost more points. This becomes less favorable if you compare it to other Tyranid MCs....
EDIT:
Also, just going back to an old point. Are people seriously suggesting that you pin a Riptide? I suggest you go take a look at the rules again...
Not to rain on your parade or anything, but a Trygon is Weapon Skill 5 and has 6 Attacks base - 5 on its profile and then plus one for having two close combat weapons for a total of 6 base - so it's actually doing 4 wounds on average to Tactical Marines.
Also, the comparisons between Dreadknights and Riptides are amusing to say the least. Without Markerlight support, a Dreadknight is far and away superior to a Riptide at shooting; a Torrent Strength 6 AP4 template that can be on a model that can do a once-per-game 30" move and will usually be moving 12" is brutal, and 6 Strength 7 AP4 Rending shots are better at tank hunting than the Ion Accelerator too while the optional Strength 7 AP4 Rending Large Blast is nice.
It's not superior because it usually dies after one turn of shooting.
Martel732 wrote: The sad part is that the Riptide is almost as a good as a dreadknight against Tac marines.
Why is that a "sad part". Dread knight with both a Heavy Psycannon and a Heavy Incinerator has just as much damage output (if not more) than a riptide in shooting and costs less points. Its not meant to be amazing at CC either
No, it doesn't. The heavy psycannon and incinerator are far inferior to an IA. The DK basically has to suicide itself to use the incinerator, as well. It's not even remotely as good.
Yeah beg to differ. They are both used for different things and that combo on a dread knight can do serious damage. I have done more damage with my dread knights than I have done with my riptides.
I find this incomprehensible since DKs are almost always instantly killed once they are within range. A Riptide gets to fire the entire game.
The effective range of a Torrent weapon is 20" before accounting for movement. The Heavy Psycannon has a 24" range. A Dreadknight can very easily give itself a 4+ invulnerable save due to Sanctuary. Your point was?
How is this thread still going on? It's clear that the people who hate the riptides are going to keep complaining about it until its nerfed to utter uselessness and the people defending it are not going to change their stance on it.
Also the Dreadknight is superior to the Riptide if the Riptide has no supporting units or marker lights, but it won't matter because as usual the Riptide is invincible and nothing can beat it except for God himself. Time to end this pointless discussion that's not going to solve anything.
The Dreadknight is never superior because it has to move into range of every AP 2 weapon in the game to do anything. A small detail that the Tau posters always ignore. It's incredibly important.
Effective range is also why the scatterlaser is amazeballs and the shuriken cannon is just okay.
If you move forward smartly you don't have to worry about taking as much incoming fire a point that is often ignored as well. And from several claims already it apparently seems that you play an infinitely long table boards since for some reason you can't seem to catch a monstrous creature who only moves 6 inches with an additional random movement on an enormous base. Not going to matter though because once again you will claim that it is all superior in every single category and is utterly undefeatable ect.....
gmaleron wrote: If you move forward smartly you don't have to worry about taking as much incoming fire a point that is often ignored as well. And from several claims already it apparently seems that you play an infinitely long table boards since for some reason you can't seem to catch a monstrous creature who only moves 6 inches with an additional random movement on an enormous base. Not going to matter though because once again you will claim that it is all superior in every single category and is utterly undefeatable ect.....
Can it fire from 60" or not? That's the only stat that ends up mattering, because the few weapons that reach that far will never kill a Riptide. Grav and the like have to get past the Kroot, firewarriors, missilesides, and now the horridly OP Stormsurge. It's often suicide to get close enough to do any of these "counters".
If you deepstrike something close, the Tau kill it with interceptor or on their turn.
gmaleron wrote: If you move forward smartly you don't have to worry about taking as much incoming fire a point that is often ignored as well. And from several claims already it apparently seems that you play an infinitely long table boards since for some reason you can't seem to catch a monstrous creature who only moves 6 inches with an additional random movement on an enormous base. Not going to matter though because once again you will claim that it is all superior in every single category and is utterly undefeatable ect.....
Can it fire from 60" or not? That's the only stat that ends up mattering, because the few weapons that reach that far will never kill a Riptide. Grav and the like have to get past the Kroot, firewarriors, missilesides, and now the horridly OP Stormsurge. It's often suicide to get close enough to do any of these "counters".
If you deepstrike something close, the Tau kill it with interceptor or on their turn.
60" is great if there's nothing within charge distance. Hehehe.
Sadly, that isn't what's going to happen for very long. Fun while it lasts though.
Can it fire from 60" or not? That's the only stat that ends up mattering, because the few weapons that reach that far will never kill a Riptide. Grav and the like have to get past the Kroot, firewarriors, missilesides, and now the horridly OP Stormsurge. It's often suicide to get close enough to do any of these "counters".
If you deepstrike something close, the Tau kill it with interceptor or on their turn.
First of all if you're playing on a table where the Riptide can use its max range of 60 inches maybe that's your problem to begin with? And I refuse to believe the argument that the Riptide is always out of range especially on a standard 6 X 4 gaming table so the argument of a 60 inch range is pointless unless you happen to roll the long deployment specific mission. And guess what you can still shoot over said units to get at the Riptide it's not impossible and that is why you deep strike as close as you possibly can or to your opponent's units. You will be surprised how often a Tau player will not intercept if you are a literally an inch away from some of their forces they do not want to risk the scatter.
Can it fire from 60" or not? That's the only stat that ends up mattering, because the few weapons that reach that far will never kill a Riptide. Grav and the like have to get past the Kroot, firewarriors, missilesides, and now the horridly OP Stormsurge. It's often suicide to get close enough to do any of these "counters".
If you deepstrike something close, the Tau kill it with interceptor or on their turn.
First of all if you're playing on a table where the Riptide can use its max range of 60 inches maybe that's your problem to begin with? And I refuse to believe the argument that the Riptide is always out of range especially on a standard 6 X 4 gaming table so the argument of a 60 inch range is pointless unless you happen to roll the long deployment specific mission. And guess what you can still shoot over said units to get at the Riptide it's not impossible and that is why you deep strike as close as you possibly can or to your opponent's units. You will be surprised how often a Tau player will not intercept if you are a literally an inch away from some of their forces they do not want to risk the scatter.
They just intercept with non-blast weapons, like HYMP. It's one of the most frustrating experiences in the game. And then you lose the assault because you've got 2 marines vs 50 Tau.
The Riptide might be in range of 48" guns, but there are no 48" guns that can effectively engage a Riptide. It takes way more lascannon shots than an IoM list will ever get off before they are tabled.
The Riptide is in range of 24 inch guns as well on the first turn it's not impossible at all. Also the Riptide does not have access to the HYMP you are banking on your opponent potentially having broadsides in this argument, even then it's not impossible.
gmaleron wrote: The Riptide is in range of 24 inch guns as well on the first turn it's not impossible at all. Also the Riptide does not have access to the HYMP you are banking on your opponent potentially having broadsides in this argument, even then it's not impossible.
They always have HYMP missile sides. Tau players are silly not to bring those. If I had a unit half as good, I'd always use it, too. The stupid part is that they usually don't even need interceptor. My guys come in with pods or deep strike, and stand around a turn looking idiotic. Yeah, they can shoot, but it's not shooting that matters. And then they all die. So regular shooting works well.
Maybe in your local metal but I don't play with broadsides as I'd rather be mobile then static so you are still banking on your opponent always bringing broadsides (HYMP is a no-brainer loadout for them). Even then it's not impossible to weather the storm of fire, and you're also banking on them taking interceptor as their support system. And if they are such a threat I would imagine you would target them when you would come in as you would have a whole turn of shooting before they could retaliate, that comes with target priority.
gmaleron wrote: Maybe in your local metal but I don't play with broadsides as I'd rather be mobile then static so you are still banking on your opponent always bringing broadsides (HYMP is a no-brainer loadout for them). Even then it's not impossible to weather the storm of fire, and you're also banking on them taking interceptor as their support system.
Yeah, it's pretty much impossible. Tau can remove 1,200 pts of BA in one turn of shooting. I've watched them do it. That's 2/3 of my list gone in one turn. Before overwatch. Even Eldar at least have to come step on me with WK to make that happen.
Here's my problem. You're using Graviton to say that a Dreadknight will die quickly but not a Riptide, but here's what your forgetting; most sources of Graviton are either in Drop Pods, Scouting up in Rhinos or using Gate of Infinity to teleport around. The same rules apply to both the Dreadknight and a Riptide on a standard 6x4 table where distances close FAST. Additionally, many players use their Riptides as forward scouting units to grab objectives because they are the natural tanks of the army, ergo, they will be up in the midfield quite often as much of the rest of a Tau army can't wither firepower like Riptides can. Now, going off that train of thought, what are the stat differences between the two? Dreadknight: T6 W4 2+ 5++ Riptide: T6 W5 2+ 5++ The former can freely give itself a 4++, the Riptide can risk losing a wound to get a 3++ and pay a lot of points for a further 5+ Feel No Pain. If you make use of line of sight blocking terrain, the Dreadknight is also smaller than the Riptide. Honestly, I'm not sure what the hell your argument is other than "waaaaaaaaah".
Caederes wrote: Here's my problem. You're using Graviton to say that a Dreadknight will die quickly but not a Riptide, but here's what your forgetting; most sources of Graviton are either in Drop Pods, Scouting up in Rhinos or using Gate of Infinity to teleport around. The same rules apply to both the Dreadknight and a Riptide on a standard 6x4 table where distances close FAST. Additionally, many players use their Riptides as forward scouting units to grab objectives because they are the natural tanks of the army, ergo, they will be up in the midfield quite often as much of the rest of a Tau army can't wither firepower like Riptides can. Now, going off that train of thought, what are the stat differences between the two? Dreadknight: T6 W4 2+ 5++ Riptide: T6 W5 2+ 5++ The former can freely give itself a 4++, the Riptide can risk losing a wound to get a 3++ and pay a lot of points for a further 5+ Feel No Pain. If you make use of line of sight blocking terrain, the Dreadknight is also smaller than the Riptide. Honestly, I'm not sure what the hell your argument is other than "waaaaaaaaah".
I have never seen someone use Riptides the way you describe for the exact reason you describe.
You can drop or scout or what have you, but the grav wielding units have to survive interceptor at the very least. Yes, centstar is a thing. BA seem to be fresh out of those though. Or grav cannons entirely. You'll never kill these things with regular grav guns.
And the dreadknight runs afoul of more than grav. It catches every plasma and meltagun, too if it tries to come assault. Weapons that never get to fire at Riptides because they die before they get within range.
Also, Tau don't need early objectives. They just shoot your army to death and win by tabling or by walking onto empty objectives.
Also, killing the High Yield Missile pods is possible. so I mean... Do that first if that's where you see the most phantoms.
Story from the front lines:
My Adepta Sororitas Rhinos typically carry Hunter Killer missiles. Fired nine (edit: 8 i believe) of them off and killed the Boradsides on the way in. First Blood. Shoulda took Drones. He didn't. Relied on his Aegis to protect them and kept his commander back to give them the ignores cover shenanigans. I get why he did it but... Also killed a Riptide turn one with melta shots and other shots.
Got smacked around by the two remaining Riptides (as you'd expect), but most were in Rhinos so it wasn't bad, mostly hull points, but Crisis teams and Fire Warriors finished blowing some Dominion out. Didn't care, they were close enough at that point and made their morale. Since it was hull pointed out, he couldnt get his flood of Ethereal fueled shots on the actual Dominion like he was hoping.
I went in and swarmed the Non-Riptides turn three after hiding behind Rhinos to flame/melta the Markerlights and Crisis teams to death in round two (angled them 45 degrees basically so only my targets could see me to the extent possible) and the Conclave came out to make ready in turn two. That was the sphincter moment. A lot of decisions were hinging on whether or not they could take some fire. if yes, then assault and be merry. if no, Kill the Riptides and use tanks to obscure me, while my Heavy flmers came to do their grisly work a second time.. So I had the Eternal Warrior Canoness join up with them (Battle Conclave) to protect them just in case and the one with 2+ armor up front so that I could pass wounds back to the other one if the STr on it was too high. It's a fantastic use of a Canoness if you want to have your conclave survive a round like that. The 2+ armor one then split off when the assault occurred to tie up more stuff and take more overwatch, which worked well.
At the end of the game he only had two wounded Riptides alive (mostly wounds he did to himself) plus a falling back Crisis team (effectively destroyed). I was similarly torn up but I had pinned him so thoroughly that my few remnant found it easy to get to objectives eventually over the course of time.
Going in armored like that was huge for my chances. I needed the armor to hide me when i popped out (or was forced out). Dominion scouting was, obviously ,awesome because it took a lot of pressure off other elements and kind of forced fire on them. The Retributor Squad was frightening when it got its chance to shine because I had bracket'd him in with only his riptides and eventually a Crisis team ranging free (admittedly a fair number of points there, but I'm just saying)
The Crisis team that deep struck behind me did damage but was too late to do enough and eventually ran.
Thinking overall, He had to make extremely tough choices about targets. On one side of his line were four heavy flamers that just scoured his lines, In the middle the inevitable Conclave and Canness assaults with Dominion. or on the left center were Dominion that could kill more Riptides. Crappy choices.
I think if he had gone after the Battle Conclave Rhino first and risked his Riptides more, he would have lost all the Riptides but he might have had a better chance overall of stopping my charges turn three. Hard to tell which way was better but i think he saw the Riptides as his money shot and losing one in turn one before it could Nova Charge its shields? It probably influenced him to try and preserve the Riptides as long as possible. Once the Canoness was in the Conclave unit, I knew Dominion would be his target but you never know what a guy might try.
The Battle Conclave was great. I slew two units on the initial charge and they stayed in combat because of another Ethereal casting his spell of stubborness.
Anywho, just passing on some practical application. Interesting test case.
Martel732 wrote: When I army swapped with Tau, I won most of my CCs. It's pretty easy for a Ritpide to step on two DC or four tac marines.
Yeah eventually lol. On average you will kill 1 per turn. I would gladly have 4 of my tac marines tie up a riptide for several turns lol
The tac marines only lasted two assault phases, so I didn't even miss a shooting phase with the Riptide.
Again, that was from your experience. But on average, only 1 would die per turn. Tying up a 225 point model with less than 60 points of models for the majority of the game is well worth it
WS2 and 3 attacks at I2 is terrible, even with Str 6 AP2
That is funny...cause if you just make that WS3 you just described Tyranid MCs...
Just saying, just because the Riptide doesn't compete with a Dreadknight, doesn't mean it is completely worthelss in CC. Tac Marines are actually one of the best things to tie a Riptide up in CC with because ATSKNF is amazing at just keeping it in place stepping on a marine or two for a couple of turns...but seriously, if Tac Marines get into CC with a Riptide the Tau player has failed at some point or all the marine player has left are Tac Marines, so it isn't really a loss.
EDIT: Just to give an idea;
A Trygon has WS3 S6 I4 5A 3+, Riptide has WS2 S6 I2 3A 2+/5++(5+++)
Against each other, Trygon will win in CC more than likely, but against Tac Marines the Trygon is more likely to die to Krak Grenades and is only doing on average 3 wounds to the Riptides 1.5 wounds. Is this acceptable when you compare what is supposed to be a CCMC vs a pure ranged MC? You are going to get a hell of a lot more mileage out of the Riptide lobbing pie plates and cleaning up small units on the charge than you are with the Trygon and the Trygon cost more points. This becomes less favorable if you compare it to other Tyranid MCs....
EDIT:
Also, just going back to an old point. Are people seriously suggesting that you pin a Riptide? I suggest you go take a look at the rules again...
Not to rain on your parade or anything, but a Trygon is Weapon Skill 5 and has 6 Attacks base - 5 on its profile and then plus one for having two close combat weapons for a total of 6 base - so it's actually doing 4 wounds on average to Tactical Marines.
Also, the comparisons between Dreadknights and Riptides are amusing to say the least. Without Markerlight support, a Dreadknight is far and away superior to a Riptide at shooting; a Torrent Strength 6 AP4 template that can be on a model that can do a once-per-game 30" move and will usually be moving 12" is brutal, and 6 Strength 7 AP4 Rending shots are better at tank hunting than the Ion Accelerator too while the optional Strength 7 AP4 Rending Large Blast is nice.
Yeah, sorry you are right. I forgot the WS5 but I did account for the 6 attacks, I just didn't write it down. Newborn baby has left me super tired, but still the Trygon is killing just 2.5 Tac Marines more than the Riptide in CC and that to me is a bit silly. If we were to compare it to things like the Haruspex, Carnifex, Tervigon, and the Malceptor it gets so much worse for the Tyranid MCs. A good comparison to the Ripdtide for Tyranids would be the Exocrine and Tyrannofex because those are the two units that are closest to the same role as the Riptide. The Exocrine has WS3 S6 5W I3 3A 3+, looks fairly similar to the Riptide but is less survivable by a not insignificant margin. The Tyrannofex is WS3 S6 6W I2 3A 2+ so it is even closer to the Riptide stat line but it has no invul save, no access to FNP outside of psychic support which is honestly to be expected in a Tyranid list if the Tyranid player gets it on the roll, and not a single weapon even close to the HBC let alone the IA.
Now I do think that the Riptide needs a nerf, mostly to its defensive abilities rather than its offensive abilities, ideally it would be a walker because...it is a giant machine but that is how I fall on the MC/Walker debate of a lot of the modern releases. But more importantly I think that Tyranid MCs need some major chagnes to make them more viable.
riptide is better than a NDK in every way except for CC (which doesnt matter) even without marker light support. Interceptor alone makes it a more valuable shooter.
Yoyoyo wrote: Trying to shoot more is attacking strength rather than attacking weakness.
Kill markerlights, get good cover saves, eliminate Obsec, win on VPs.
If only this was viable...
I play Tau and CSM and my friend also plays Tau. Killing each others Markerlights means nothing when you still have a 1/3 chance of getting a Direct hit on a Nova Charged IA Large Blast. Thats still a squad of Dead Bikers, Terminators and the likes. Markerlights aren't the staple of what make Tau good. They just add bullcrap to the already under costed army that obliterates everything they shoot at. Coupled with the new Boosted BS potential and not for anything, but there just isn't much reason to NOT Bandwagon and play Tau indefinitely.
Ashiraya wrote: 9 missiles, 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 2+ armor?
Less than one wound inflicted on average?
I don't remember what T value Broadsides have but even if it is T4 for ID it's still not very impressive.
Jancoran literally ignores math you present to him simply because he plays CAAC games where things that'll happen once will happen once.
No, you're not going to kill a Riptide in a single turn with Melta in an actual, realistic setting where your opponents aren't brain dead.
You're wrong, as usual.
My opponent wasn't brain dead. There's nothing you can do when that many dominion scout up, move and disembark, then fire with Ignores Cover. Sorry, "smart guy" but There's just nothing you can do.
I've done it to Wraith Knights, I've done it to Imperial KNights, it is what it is. If I get to go first, someone is going to have a very expensive first round. 11 Melta shots (plus a few bolters) = Dead Riptide. I didn't even get out with all the Dominion to do it. Didn't need to. I just fired from inside with some of them (and then got blown out).
GoliothOnline wrote: Killing each others Markerlights means nothing when you still have a 1/3 chance of getting a Direct hit on a Nova Charged IA Large Blast
I'm thinking more of something like Jink+Shrouded Bikes for 2+ cover or T6 Nurgle Spawn with a 4+ in Ruins and 4+++ FNP.
You don't think it could work? You'd be cutting 75-80% of the damage output.
Jancoran wrote: Broadsides are T4. Failed two saves. last one killed by the meltas.
I infallibly think they're T5. I ought to remember that for the future, HKMs are great on Taurox Primes.
Bharring wrote: Janc,
Don't Riptides take 13.5 Meltas on average?
Math questikn, of course.
I know I fired 11 plus Bolters. Since this isn't theory hammering but an actual game I don't know, but I suppose I can grab a pen. Lol.
According to my calculation: 11 Meltas creates 6.1111 wounds before the Invul. The Bolters/grenade adds to that potentially but just the Meltas themselves, thats what you get. After invul save that would be 4.07 unsaved wounds. He had no time to raie his shield so it was only 5+ or I would have risked more dominions.
So given infinite opportunities, it would avarage 4.07 unsaved wounds from that, plus what the Bolters/grenade randomly adds to that (which is very little). EDIT: two Bolters would add .07% and the Grenade .05% so if you add that in you're at another .12, a total of 4.19).
If that were the median average then 50% of your games would see more and 50% would see less. 4+ wounds is a reasonable expectiation (fractions dont exist on a 6 sider)
I personally took my chances there because I wanted to keep some of the Dominions in rhinos to force him to have to blow me out. 11 shots seemed about as much as I should risk in the first go on the Riptide without exposing them given his other two Riptides were a little too far to engage due to deployment.
GoliothOnline wrote: Killing each others Markerlights means nothing when you still have a 1/3 chance of getting a Direct hit on a Nova Charged IA Large Blast
I'm thinking more of something like Jink+Shrouded Bikes for 2+ cover or T6 Nurgle Spawn with a 4+ in Ruins and 4+++ FNP.
You don't think it could work? You'd be cutting 75-80% of the damage output.
Jancoran wrote: Broadsides are T4. Failed two saves. last one killed by the meltas.
I infallibly think they're T5. I ought to remember that for the future, HKMs are great on Taurox Primes.
Nope. Broadsides are just T4. So HK's are a good idea for them if you have enough. I have enough. Great for First Blood hunting. Plus like i say: lot of alpha striking fire power in Adepta Sororits.
Bharring wrote: Janc,
Don't Riptides take 13.5 Meltas on average?
Math questikn, of course.
Assuming BS 4, I think it's
2/3*5/6*2/3 (5++) * 2/3 (FnP) so 40/162, so roughly 4 shots per wound. Dominions, which I believe we are talking about here, have Ignore Cover AoF so a better cover save won't help.
So, being 5 wounds, it would take 20 Meltas assuming the enemy doesn't go for the 3++ save. I'm assuming the 5+ FnP because I personally always take it, and I always see it taken.
Assuming dominions and no wounds on the riptide, it would take roughly 3-4 squads of them firing to kill a riptide (Assuming 4 meltas and a combi, plus immolator tank). I believe it's closer to 3 since the immolator has twinlinked then 4, but I didn't run the numbers so I could be wrong.
Each dominion squad usually costs roughly 200 points with immolator (obviously it can swing either way by 10-15%, but 200 is a nice round value). Figure it costs 600-800 points of melta to kill a riptide.
Which isn't bad. If dominions had longer range weapons, and riptides couldn't dash away, they would probably be a very effective counter.
I could be wrong, I'm going from memory and sisters is one of the few armies I don't own or play often. I know last time I ran the dominions numbers I was told it was incorrect but it was never stated why it was incorrect. Most likely it's some equipment on a HQ I'm unaware of.
I misunderstood you, Janc. I thought you were saying that that amount of firepower will typically drop a riptide. These things happen, and you risk what you have to risk in-game.
Having an EV of 4.19 is fairly good. But anything less than an EV of 5 should leave the Riptide alive more than half the time (in games not yet played, of course). However, a Riptide at 1W can be finished off by something else. And, failing that, at least the Riptide is very unlikely to Nova Charge.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm not sure ignoring the decimal place is that useful.
An EV of 4 is much less likely to leave a Riptide with only one wound than an EV of 4.19. Especially when a lot of rolls are involved.
Jancoran wrote: Not exactly accurate. you cant multiply hits that never happen.
In any event, it takes 11 to average over 4 wounds and 14 (since there are no fractional dice) to avergae over 5.
Feel No Pain wasn't an issue in this case. If he had FnP, I could have brought more meltas out. I didn't need to in this case.
I'm guessing your numbers are assuming no FnP?
2/3*5/6*2/3= 20/54, so 3 meltas easily cause a wound. 12 meltas would cause over 4 wounds on average. (little less than 4.5 I believe)
Maybe if you round up constantly you get something else? I'm not sure what you mean by "multiply hits that never happen". Maybe if you posted your calculations? I'm using simple math assuming no standard deviation or anything, there certainly isn't a bell curve being produced. I would imagine the deviation is quite high since it's relatively little weapons being used.
If FnP wasn't an issue, that would help quite a bit. I've never not seen it taken, it really helps quite a bit with weapons like plasma and melta that get through the save.
Agree that once a Riptide is at 1-2W it becomes a lot weaker. It's normally scared to Nova charge, although FnP does help with this to an extent.
Bharring wrote: I misunderstood you, Janc. I thought you were saying that that amount of firepower will typically drop a riptide. These things happen, and you risk what you have to risk in-game.
Having an EV of 4.19 is fairly good. But anything less than an EV of 5 should leave the Riptide alive more than half the time (in games not yet played, of course). However, a Riptide at 1W can be finished off by something else. And, failing that, at least the Riptide is very unlikely to Nova Charge.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm not sure ignoring the decimal place is that useful.
An EV of 4 is much less likely to leave a Riptide with only one wound than an EV of 4.19. Especially when a lot of rolls are involved.
I'm just relating a battle to learn from. I'm telling you what happened. Someone else brought up the math. I probably knew on some level how many I needed to have a solid shot at it and i protected the rest for later.
Jancoran wrote: Not exactly accurate. you cant multiply hits that never happen.
In any event, it takes 11 to average over 4 wounds and 14 (since there are no fractional dice) to avergae over 5.
Feel No Pain wasn't an issue in this case. If he had FnP, I could have brought more meltas out. I didn't need to in this case.
I'm guessing your numbers are assuming no FnP?
2/3*5/6*2/3= 20/54, so 3 meltas easily cause a wound. 12 meltas would cause over 4 wounds on average. (little less than 4.5 I believe)
Maybe if you round up constantly you get something else? I'm not sure what you mean by "multiply hits that never happen". Maybe if you posted your calculations? I'm using simple math assuming no standard deviation or anything, there certainly isn't a bell curve being produced. I would imagine the deviation is quite high since it's relatively little weapons being used.
If FnP wasn't an issue, that would help quite a bit. I've never not seen it taken, it really helps quite a bit with weapons like plasma and melta that get through the save.
Agree that once a Riptide is at 1-2W it becomes a lot weaker. It's normally scared to Nova charge, although FnP does help with this to an extent.
(11/6) *4 = 7.33 hits.
becomes 6.111111 wounds.
That becomes 4.07 unsaved wounds.
And he had no FnP. Its expensive and when you're not risking a lot in the Riptide Formation, it makes even more sense not ot take FnP. But sure, he could have and it would have cost him 105 points somewhere else. I don't think, given how the battle went, that he could have afforded that gladly.
And in the end, he lost only one riptide so I mean... Honestly I don't know that it would have been worth it in retrospect either.
Hard to say. You could argue that FnP would have saved the riptide, easily earning it's points back (even with all 3 taking it). You could then argue that being 105 down would result in more units reaching the rip tides resulting in more wounds anyway.
What's the trend with tournaments? I hardly ever see riptide without FnP, but that's locally and on these forums. It'd be nice to have a baseline.
4.07 isn't bad, I suppose I'd like a more sure thing then barely over 4 since I tend to roll low, but on average you can think it'll get the job done.
Yip and once the battle has started, we never know what side of average we will be on, on any given roll, so thats why we play the game. And the Bolters and Grenades do push it to 4.19 o I mean... It's there forr the taking if you were to math hammer it out. The risk reward equation is one that is very hard to quantify anyways and i opted for less risk and hoped (intuitively) that 4.19 would get the job done while having made prudent provision for if it did not (in other words, cowering with some of them firing from the Rhino).
Xenomancers wrote: riptide is better than a NDK in every way except for CC (which doesnt matter) even without marker light support. Interceptor alone makes it a more valuable shooter.
Again, I have used both for years and I beg to differ. My Dreadknights have always done much more damage than my riptides ever have. Yes they die more often but after they have done way more points of damage than the riptides due for the course of the game.
1.) If I remember correctly, you play mono-Blood Angels. That is an active choice that has associated opportunity costs with it. It is widely acknowledged as a weak codex. By choosing to do so, you are choosing to play a less competitive army. Should it be that way? Absolutely No! But that is how it is and it should be a consideration in your army selection process. Personally, I don't play WHite Scars CT because I don't like that style of play. So I know I won't be as competitive.
2.) Practically the only good unit in the BS codex are Drop Pods. So I'm assuming that is an integral part of your strategy. You couldn't design a better hard counter to drop pods then the an Iontide with EWO. Do you really expect the scissors to perform well against the rock? I get it though. When all you have is a pair of scissors, you are going to learn to hate that rock with a passion.
3.) The Riptide is a great unit. Very few people could genuinely argue that it isn't. Personally, I wish they would switch the ranges between the IA and the HBC. But that is because I like the HBC and because it would make it a more attractive choice. It might make the HBC more competitive too if they made the S8AP2 large blast available only with the Nova Charge. But in all fairness, I doubt that is going to happen.
4.) 40k is terribly balanced. Your best hope is for either a different game or pray they give the Blood Angles a worthy detachment formation and/or a new codex. Obviously, a new codex seems unlikely. But who knows?
3.) The Riptide is a great unit. Very few people could genuinely argue that it isn't. Personally, I wish they would switch the ranges between the IA and the HBC. But that is because I like the HBC and because it would make it a more attractive choice. It might make the HBC more competitive too if they made the S8AP2 large blast available only with the Nova Charge. But in all fairness, I doubt that is going to happen.
nova is s9ap2 ordinance large blast, overcharge is s8ap2 large blast gets hot, and regular is s7ap2 heavy 3
Why do you like the HBC? 8 s6 ap5 shots, or 12 gets hot s6 ap5 shots rending (with nova charge roll on top to self wound), you'll get hot as often as you'll rend. and s6 isn't a terribly useful strength when you have ready access to s7
3.) The Riptide is a great unit. Very few people could genuinely argue that it isn't. Personally, I wish they would switch the ranges between the IA and the HBC. But that is because I like the HBC and because it would make it a more attractive choice. It might make the HBC more competitive too if they made the S8AP2 large blast available only with the Nova Charge. But in all fairness, I doubt that is going to happen.
nova is s9ap2 ordinance large blast, overcharge is s8ap2 large blast gets hot, and regular is s7ap2 heavy 3
Why do you like the HBC? 8 s6 ap5 shots, or 12 gets hot s6 ap5 shots rending (with nova charge roll on top to self wound), you'll get hot as often as you'll rend. and s6 isn't a terribly useful strength when you have ready access to s7
What I was saying is that the large blast S8AP2 blast should only be available if you Nova Charge or just remove it and leave the S9 one the same. I rarely Nova Charge for the S9 blast which allows me to use it solely for the 3++ or the 4d6 Jetpack move. The Burstide basically has to use it's Nova Charge for the gun profile to make it viable. That is bad design in my opinion when one option is vastly better than the other. Personally, I just like the look of the HBC better. Silly reason, I know. But there is really no comparing the two right now.
Ashiraya wrote: 9 missiles, 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 2+ armor?
Less than one wound inflicted on average?
I don't remember what T value Broadsides have but even if it is T4 for ID it's still not very impressive.
Jancoran literally ignores math you present to him simply because he plays CAAC games where things that'll happen once will happen once.
No, you're not going to kill a Riptide in a single turn with Melta in an actual, realistic setting where your opponents aren't brain dead.
You're wrong, as usual.
My opponent wasn't brain dead. There's nothing you can do when that many dominion scout up, move and disembark, then fire with Ignores Cover. Sorry, "smart guy" but There's just nothing you can do.
I've done it to Wraith Knights, I've done it to Imperial KNights, it is what it is. If I get to go first, someone is going to have a very expensive first round. 11 Melta shots (plus a few bolters) = Dead Riptide. I didn't even get out with all the Dominion to do it. Didn't need to. I just fired from inside with some of them (and then got blown out).
Incorrect.
Even with just the 5++ you're looking at 4.07 wounds done, which doesn't kill a Riptide. You aren't allowed to ignore decimals just because you don't like them. With FNP you're looking at 3.06 instead. Why the FNP wasn't purchased I'll never know, as that 35 points basically gives you 2 more wounds for all intents and purposes.
NOW we can look at Bolters. You need an average of 54 Bolters to actually cause a single wound, and that's without FNP again. So you had something happen that was out of the ordinary and you propose it as a way to counter Riptides. To do all of this your opponent does has to be braindead at deployment because a simple counterdeployment is easy against anything carrying something like Meltas, especially you're having to use Rhinos.
3.) The Riptide is a great unit. Very few people could genuinely argue that it isn't. Personally, I wish they would switch the ranges between the IA and the HBC. But that is because I like the HBC and because it would make it a more attractive choice. It might make the HBC more competitive too if they made the S8AP2 large blast available only with the Nova Charge. But in all fairness, I doubt that is going to happen.
nova is s9ap2 ordinance large blast, overcharge is s8ap2 large blast gets hot, and regular is s7ap2 heavy 3
Why do you like the HBC? 8 s6 ap5 shots, or 12 gets hot s6 ap5 shots rending (with nova charge roll on top to self wound), you'll get hot as often as you'll rend. and s6 isn't a terribly useful strength when you have ready access to s7
In the riptide wing, I actually prefer the HBC. Rerolling nova charges means you will be far less likely to fail and you will get the nova charged version of the HBC (12 S6 AP4 shots with rending). Thats 10 hits at BS5 and almost 2 rends. Thats amazing for taking out armor or MC. IA is better at taking out groups of 2+/3+ armor save units
Incorrect.
Even with just the 5++ you're looking at 4.07 wounds done, which doesn't kill a Riptide. You aren't allowed to ignore decimals just because you don't like them. With FNP you're looking at 3.06 instead. Why the FNP wasn't purchased I'll never know, as that 35 points basically gives you 2 more wounds for all intents and purposes.
NOW we can look at Bolters. You need an average of 54 Bolters to actually cause a single wound, and that's without FNP again. So you had something happen that was out of the ordinary and you propose it as a way to counter Riptides. To do all of this your opponent does has to be braindead at deployment because a simple counter deployment is easy against anything carrying something like Meltas, especially you're having to use Rhinos.
What I'm allowed to do is point out the obvious... The number of shots stopped mattering when it died. lol.
I didn't have tio ignore decimals (but you did. Its actually 4.19 in this case)) because dice don't HAVE decimals. True story. Its only useful for looking at possibilities, not realities; and it requires infinite games in order to reach that supposed "average" so ultimately I don't know what your point really is.
It happened. I got .81 more wounds than the average but that's okay. Because aagin... it was NEVER going to be 4.19. So what we know is that the odds are... that I will do more than 4 wounds. and that is what happened. And we know that if probability holds, we won't ALWAYS do more than 4. We know that too.
You have got to come to grips with the REALITY. The dice dont have decimals but the odds tell you that the wounds caused are usually greater than 4.
In this case it tells us that its usually 4, and will sometimes, but very rarely, be higher. In most cases, thr Riptide will still be alive.
If the correct average is 4.19 (im not double checking any numbers here) then you can expect 4 wounds, and about every 5th go around you can expect to sneak in a 5th wound on average.
Statistics fail. Anecdotes in no way influence the reality of statistical analysis. In a generalized discussion, personal reality is not really applicable.
Martel732 wrote: Statistics fail. Anecdotes in no way influence the reality of statistical analysis. In a generalized discussion, personal reality is not really applicable.
Correct. So you will average more than 4 wounds always.
EDIT: which ceases to be an issue once the body stops moving.
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Vaktathi wrote: In this case it tells us that its usually 4, and will sometimes, but very rarely, be higher. In most cases, thr Riptide will still be alive.
If the correct average is 4.19 (im not double checking any numbers here) then you can expect 4 wounds, and about every 5th go around you can expect to sneak in a 5th wound on average.
No. The average tells us that 4 is too low. But it can only act in absolute numbers. So just ONE unlucky roll is all it takes... in either direction. Thats hardly an odd thing to see in a game.
Plus you're essentially trying to argue the Riptide back to life. that's not going to happen.
Martel732 wrote: Statistics fail. Anecdotes in no way influence the reality of statistical analysis. In a generalized discussion, personal reality is not really applicable.
Correct. So you will average more than 4 wounds always.
EDIT: which ceases to be an issue once the body stops moving.
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Vaktathi wrote: In this case it tells us that its usually 4, and will sometimes, but very rarely, be higher. In most cases, thr Riptide will still be alive.
If the correct average is 4.19 (im not double checking any numbers here) then you can expect 4 wounds, and about every 5th go around you can expect to sneak in a 5th wound on average.
No. The average tells us that 4 is too low. But it can only act in absolute numbers. So just ONE unlucky roll is all it takes... in either direction. Thats hardly an odd thing to see in a game.
Plus you're essentially trying to argue the Riptide back to life. that's not going to happen.
yes...one lucky roll is all it takes..but that goes both ways, and for basically anythjng. You cannot rely on that however.
On average you're looking at 4 wounds. The riptide will survive *most* of the time. Occasionally, you'll get that 5th, significantly more often than you'll only get three, but the average is telling you that you should expect 4 wounds, not 5, the overwhelmingly vast majority of the time. That is exactly what that average is telling you.
Expecting to kill the riptide that way routinely and on an average roll, is incorrect. It will be an exception.
Yip. So most of the time you count on more than 4. It takes one die in... 7? Yeah. One in 7 has to go the wrong way. not bad. dont stress over it. The victory was so complete that this hardly matters.
It is provided for your information. The take away you might get here is that killing all the Riptides doesn't need to be the goal.
Other take away: it is as i said: saturate and then punch the Tau Empire in the face.
Most of the time, you should be expecting 4, not more than 4. The 4.19 average means that, on average you'll do 4 and every 5th iteration or so of the scenario you can expect a 5th wound to sneak in. If you're counting on doing more than 4 wounds as a matter of course, you're doing to get bit back a majority of the time.
4.19 average wounds is not going to equal a dead riptide most of the time, you'd need an average above 4.5 for that. Sometimes you will get that extra wound, but usually you will not, and must plan and play accordingly.
I get that you're saying that you don't always need to kill the riptide, and that's potentially true in many instances, and that's a fair point to make, but the main thing I'm taking issue with is the assertion that counting on that riptide being dead after one such fusillade is erroneous.
Vaktathi, I sincerely admire your effort to argue against Jancoran and explain where you're coming from but he has shown, emphatically, that he won't listen to any opinion but his own.
Trying to convince him of something other than his own opinion or show him the errors of his thought process is akin to trying to move an ocean with a teacup. I.E. find something more productive to do with your time.
That said, Riptides are point for point one of the most durable Monstrous Creatures in the game. For me, the 'trick' I'm leaning toward trying is to drop pod some kind of Librarian (be it a Librarian Dreadnought in a pod, Librarian in Terminator Armor in a pod attached to a squad, etc) with the Fear of the Darkness power with my Blood Angels. The downside to this are that one, I only get two chances to roll the power on the Sanguinary psychic discipline unless I run two Librarians (Or Mephiston and a Librarian) and have to weather the hail of fire coming in from any potential interceptor. Also, the Librarian and/or squad is going to get picked up next turn. Also, the Tau player can deploy his Riptide(s) forward or jump forward a full 12" if they go first and that renders the Fear of the Darkness trick moot, as they'll fall back and won't hit table edge unless I can get my pods in first before the Tau player moves.
That also doesn't address the fact that many Tau players will have at least a pair of these things on the tabletop, some having as many as three of them.
It's a tough problem to tackle. Of course punching them in melee is always an option but any Tau player worth his salt is going to make sure that if you try to charge any part of their force, you'll get massive amounts of overwatch fire that will potentially blunt the assault all together.
Jancoran's math is off. 11 Melta shots is 7.333 shots landed, which is 6.111 wounds, which is 4.074 wounds Inflicted, as per Mathhammer's site just so I didn't have to bring out a calculator.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Jancoran's math is off. 11 Melta shots is 7.333 shots landed, which is 6.111 wounds, which is 4.074 wounds Inflicted, as per Mathhammer's site just so I didn't have to bring out a calculator.
My math is right and i already explained that it includes the bolter shots and a Grenade.
I already showed you how many Bolter shots it takes to take a wound off a Riptide. A single Krak will inflict .06 wounds. Don't tout this stuff as effective again please.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Jancoran's math is off. 11 Melta shots is 7.333 shots landed, which is 6.111 wounds, which is 4.074 wounds Inflicted, as per Mathhammer's site just so I didn't have to bring out a calculator.
My math is right and i already explained that it includes the bolter shots and a Grenade.
Show your work then?
T:6, with a 2+/5++ and Feel no Pain on top of it (more often than not, they're going to have this ugrade) giving a further 5+ save once a save is failed mean that it will take an EXORBITANT amount of firepower to kill a Riptide. And that's in the open. If it's in cover, then the numbers get even higher.
Offering Melta as a viable way to kill a Riptide is... Laughable?... No that's not the right word.. Stupid? .... No, still not right...
Ignorant! That's the word.
Only a literal handful of units (Squads or Vehicles) in the game have any way to bring more than two to three melta shots to bear on a target and that's usually within 12" of the target and at a pretty sizable points investment to boot when you factor in the cost of a transport to get the squad and their melta weaponry in close enough to actually do the work.
Please stop perpetuating this as a viable way to deal with something like a riptide. It'll hurt it, sure, and it may even kill one every so often, but that doesn't make it good, or viable.
3.) The Riptide is a great unit. Very few people could genuinely argue that it isn't. Personally, I wish they would switch the ranges between the IA and the HBC. But that is because I like the HBC and because it would make it a more attractive choice. It might make the HBC more competitive too if they made the S8AP2 large blast available only with the Nova Charge. But in all fairness, I doubt that is going to happen.
nova is s9ap2 ordinance large blast, overcharge is s8ap2 large blast gets hot, and regular is s7ap2 heavy 3
Why do you like the HBC? 8 s6 ap5 shots, or 12 gets hot s6 ap5 shots rending (with nova charge roll on top to self wound), you'll get hot as often as you'll rend. and s6 isn't a terribly useful strength when you have ready access to s7
The HBC has much higher damage output when nova'd than the IA, unless the latter is fired into a tightly packed group (or maybe an AV14 vehicle -- haven't done the math on that).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Why the FNP wasn't purchased I'll never know, as that 35 points basically gives you 2 more wounds for all intents and purposes.
Because it costs 35pts that could be spent on offense elsewhere, it costs a support system slot with desired utility like VT, it won't save a Riptide from D-weapons or ID, it's more points lost when locked in combat and swept, it doesn't protect against LD warfare, and it doesn't protect against certain debuffs. It's good but not an auto-take, and in fact neither of the top LVO Tau finishers used it either.
Red__Thirst wrote: T:6, with a 2+/5++ and Feel no Pain on top of it (more often than not, they're going to have this ugrade) giving a further 5+ save once a save is failed mean that it will take an EXORBITANT amount of firepower to kill a Riptide. And that's in the open. If it's in cover, then the numbers get even higher.
...
Only a literal handful of units (Squads or Vehicles) in the game have any way to bring more than two to three melta shots to bear on a target and that's usually within 12" of the target and at a pretty sizable points investment to boot when you factor in the cost of a transport to get the squad and their melta weaponry in close enough to actually do the work.
That wasn't the situation, though. Jancoran was fighting a Riptide without FNP, which I'm sure affected the choice to attack it. He had some of the best Melta output in the game on some of the best platforms. Sisters have exorbitant firepower, he took some low percentage shots and it paid off. He can afford to do that, because Riptide damage is blunted when shooting at a 35hp Rhino. It's not that hard to follow.
It's not an answer to Riptides. It's just information. Most armies won't find it simple to produce double digits of Melta on T1, that aren't subject to Interceptor and potentially Ignore Cover. So all you can do is ask :
- why did it work ;
- is it replicable ;
- can it work in a different army.
I don't see this working on BA but the information is still useful, even if it was an above average shooting round.
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Vaktathi wrote: In this case it tells us that its usually 4, and will sometimes, but very rarely, be higher. In most cases, thr Riptide will still be alive.
If the correct average is 4.19 (im not double checking any numbers here) then you can expect 4 wounds, and about every 5th go around you can expect to sneak in a 5th wound on average.
Wouldn't it be in every 5 rolls, there would be one wound.
But that doesn't mean the wound won't be in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th position, right?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Why the FNP wasn't purchased I'll never know, as that 35 points basically gives you 2 more wounds for all intents and purposes.
Because it costs 35pts that could be spent on offense elsewhere, it costs a support system slot with desired utility like VT, it won't save a Riptide from D-weapons or ID, it's more points lost when locked in combat and swept, it doesn't protect against LD warfare, and it doesn't protect against certain debuffs. It's good but not an auto-take, and in fact neither of the top LVO Tau finishers used it either.
While that's true, the other Tau lists did take it.
What's more worrying to me is that nearly every tau list took a Riptide Wing, and we are arguing if its too good or not I believe the reason FnP wasn't taken is due to the Riptide wing, which prevents the Nova Reactor problem from happening. It's always been a big reason to take it, since it's nearly guaranteed to save 1 wound a game between shooting and the reactor.
Interceptor was also commonly taken. Should we assume that every riptide is going to be in a wing, have interceptor, and half the time have FnP? If you are trying to convince everyone the riptide is not OP, starting from how it is seen in the LVO doesn't help your argument. The formation it gets is easily one of the best in the game, and the Triptide wasn't exactly rare before.
Red__Thirst wrote: T:6, with a 2+/5++ and Feel no Pain on top of it (more often than not, they're going to have this ugrade) giving a further 5+ save once a save is failed mean that it will take an EXORBITANT amount of firepower to kill a Riptide. And that's in the open. If it's in cover, then the numbers get even higher.
...
Only a literal handful of units (Squads or Vehicles) in the game have any way to bring more than two to three melta shots to bear on a target and that's usually within 12" of the target and at a pretty sizable points investment to boot when you factor in the cost of a transport to get the squad and their melta weaponry in close enough to actually do the work.
That wasn't the situation, though. Jancoran was fighting a Riptide without FNP, which I'm sure affected the choice to attack it. He had some of the best Melta output in the game on some of the best platforms. Sisters have exorbitant firepower, he took some low percentage shots and it paid off. He can afford to do that, because Riptide damage is blunted when shooting at a 35hp Rhino. It's not that hard to follow.
It's not an answer to Riptides. It's just information. Most armies won't find it simple to produce double digits of Melta on T1, that aren't subject to Interceptor and potentially Ignore Cover. So all you can do is ask :
- why did it work ;
- is it replicable ;
- can it work in a different army.
I don't see this working on BA but the information is still useful, even if it was an above average shooting round.
Well, for the most part, it worked because Sisters are unique in how they spam melta and can get up the board so quickly without interceptor being an issue and have Ignores cover. Off hand, I can't think of a unit that can manage all 3 in another unit outside of grav cents, who still can't ignore cover but can remove a riptide turn 1 and not worry about interceptor too much.
I'm not sure what the rest of Jan's opponent was fielding, but I've never seen Tau struggle with rhinos. Str 5 base guns, certain formations, broadsides, and crisis suits are all adept at destroying rhinos easily. This might be different for the gladius strike force, but an army coming in two waves like sisters tend to be a lot easier to manage, imo. But my experience with sisters is limited, but I imagine a rhino is a rhino. A unit doesn't have to be effective against every target after all, as long as its a decent majority and the other units can shore up the weakness, its fine.
As for it being repeatable...I don't think so, not often anyway. It was already shown that it requires FnP not being taken (so looking at the LVO, roughly a 50% chance, maybe less), the Riptide being in melta range of a units, and rolling above average. The last factor surely makes it not likely to have a repeat showing.
The other issue is that it destroyed only 1 Riptide and left the sister vulnerable after. There were 2 more, I believe...it's not a true BR so its a bit hard to follow, that were not killed and seemed to be one of the last units left standing. Doesn't this also speak to their toughness?
We can also say Jan's experience doesn't reflect what is seen at the LVO, unless his opponent also used a Riptide wing formation (they did take 3, but I'm not sure if they did). The increase to their toughness and firepower the formation grants is a little absurd.
Vaktathi wrote: In this case it tells us that its usually 4, and will sometimes, but very rarely, be higher. In most cases, thr Riptide will still be alive.
If the correct average is 4.19 (im not double checking any numbers here) then you can expect 4 wounds, and about every 5th go around you can expect to sneak in a 5th wound on average.
Wouldn't it be in every 5 rolls, there would be one wound.
But that doesn't mean the wound won't be in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th position, right?
Correct. However, that does mean you'd have to fire it 5 times to see a 5th wound on average. Seeing it on the first or second try is still low odds, <50%, so shouldn't be relied on. Keep in mind that even an average of 5 doesn't mean you'll always do five, as I'm sure we've all seen. It just means there are good odds that you'll do five wounds.
What we do on the forums is a kind of "bastard stats", because it's very very simple to do. We don't include standard deviation, which with this set up is probably pretty big being so few dice, we don't include a real probability of getting +/-1, and we don't look at what the numbers are telling us too closely.
Instead it's more of a loose way of looking at it that backs up an argument, since a lot of times someone's gut feeling is way off base, like we've seen in many threads before. It also serves as a way to validate anecdotal evidence.
So a 4.19 means, basically, You have a good chance to cause 4 wounds, a low chance to cause 5 wounds, a very low chance to cause 3, and an extremely low chance to cause 6 or 2. It doesn't mean "over 4 wounds, round up to 5".
I think Jan's original point that bringing a Riptide down to 1 wound makes it a lot weaker since, especially without FnP, it would be afraid to Nova. Riptides want to Nova.
However, looking at the LVO lists and how common the Wing is, I don't think this point applies any longer. Even at 1 wound, the Riptide is free to Nova quite a bit, and with the other bonuses the firepower will be very impressive.
Akiasura wrote: Should we assume that every riptide is going to be in a wing, have interceptor, and half the time have FnP? If you are trying to convince everyone the riptide is not OP, starting from how it is seen in the LVO doesn't help your argument. The formation it gets is easily one of the best in the game, and the Triptide wasn't exactly rare before.
Yes. 3/4 of the Tau lists in the Top 50 played Riptide Wing, the other list included 2 Riptides anyway (with one being the FW Yvahra). A lot of FNP showed up in the other 2x lists when there wasn't a VT or TL that took priority. So, accurate assumption this time Aki. It's a top-tier unit and the formation itself dominated Tau list construction.
Trying to take on Formations/Detachments with CAD units is a lost cause, that's another lesson here. Nobody fielded large amounts of CAD units unless they wanted a specific choice that's otherwise inaccessible.
FYI Martel, I was looking at the top 50, BA show up (barely) at 21st place as allies to a GK primary. This is what adapting to a competitive Meta looks like I guess, there are something like 14 units and 8 of them are rocking Force Weapons, along with 17WC.
Blood Angels CAD:
Meph
5x Tactical in Drop Pod, w/Melta/Combi-Melta
5x Tactical in Drop Pod, w/Melta/Combi-Melta
5x Tactical in Drop Pod, w/Melta/Combi-Melta
Decurion, Aspect Host, War Convocation, Gladius, RW super-friends?
Or CAD Blood Angels, IG, and CSM without allies?
It's kind of a perspective thing.
Against the vast list of options available of course. Like ever discussion revolving around if a model is worth taking.
It's hard to think of many examples of lists the riptide wing struggles against (gladius? Any others?). It offers a ton of benefits and the riptide is a model with a range of applications.
What's more worrying to me is that nearly every tau list took a Riptide Wing, and we are arguing if its too good or not I believe the reason FnP wasn't taken is due to the Riptide wing, which prevents the Nova Reactor problem from happening. It's always been a big reason to take it, since it's nearly guaranteed to save 1 wound a game between shooting and the reactor.
Interceptor was also commonly taken. Should we assume that every riptide is going to be in a wing, have interceptor, and half the time have FnP? If you are trying to convince everyone the riptide is not OP, starting from how it is seen in the LVO doesn't help your argument. The formation it gets is easily one of the best in the game, and the Triptide wasn't exactly rare before.
You know why thats the case? Because ITC nerfed the other competitive options in the codex (When I say competitive I mean top level LVO play). You would have seen some lists with the hunter contingent if ITC hadn't nerfed it. You would have seen more Optimized Stealth Cadres if ITC hadn't nerfed it at the last second. You may have even seen a piranha wing if ITC hadn't nerfed it.
You don't like that everyone uses riptides/riptides wings? Blame ITC
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I already showed you how many Bolter shots it takes to take a wound off a Riptide. A single Krak will inflict .06 wounds. Don't tout this stuff as effective again please.
Again, intentionally NOT listening. i was correcting your math to account for them. Not making a statement about them.
Why DO you even participate if you can't keep up? Just to antagonize or what?
Well, for the most part, it worked because Sisters are unique in how they spam melta and can get up the board so quickly without interceptor being an issue and have Ignores cover. Off hand, I can't think of a unit that can manage all 3 in another unit outside of grav cents, who still can't ignore cover but can remove a riptide turn 1 and not worry about interceptor too much.
I'm not sure what the rest of Jan's opponent was fielding, but I've never seen Tau struggle with rhinos. Str 5 base guns, certain formations, broadsides, and crisis suits are all adept at destroying rhinos easily. This might be different for the gladius strike force, but an army coming in two waves like sisters tend to be a lot easier to manage, imo. But my experience with sisters is limited, but I imagine a rhino is a rhino. A unit doesn't have to be effective against every target after all, as long as its a decent majority and the other units can shore up the weakness, its fine.
As for it being repeatable...I don't think so, not often anyway. It was already shown that it requires FnP not being taken (so looking at the LVO, roughly a 50% chance, maybe less), the Riptide being in melta range of a units, and rolling above average. The last factor surely makes it not likely to have a repeat showing.
The other issue is that it destroyed only 1 Riptide and left the sister vulnerable after. There were 2 more, I believe...it's not a true BR so its a bit hard to follow, that were not killed and seemed to be one of the last units left standing. Doesn't this also speak to their toughness?
We can also say Jan's experience doesn't reflect what is seen at the LVO, unless his opponent also used a Riptide wing formation (they did take 3, but I'm not sure if they did). The increase to their toughness and firepower the formation grants is a little absurd.
Vaktathi wrote: In this case it tells us that its usually 4, and will sometimes, but very rarely, be higher. In most cases, thr Riptide will still be alive.
If the correct average is 4.19 (im not double checking any numbers here) then you can expect 4 wounds, and about every 5th go around you can expect to sneak in a 5th wound on average.
Wouldn't it be in every 5 rolls, there would be one wound.
But that doesn't mean the wound won't be in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th position, right?
Correct. However, that does mean you'd have to fire it 5 times to see a 5th wound on average. Seeing it on the first or second try is still low odds, <50%, so shouldn't be relied on. Keep in mind that even an average of 5 doesn't mean you'll always do five, as I'm sure we've all seen. It just means there are good odds that you'll do five wounds.
What we do on the forums is a kind of "bastard stats", because it's very very simple to do. We don't include standard deviation, which with this set up is probably pretty big being so few dice, we don't include a real probability of getting +/-1, and we don't look at what the numbers are telling us too closely.
Instead it's more of a loose way of looking at it that backs up an argument, since a lot of times someone's gut feeling is way off base, like we've seen in many threads before. It also serves as a way to validate anecdotal evidence.
So a 4.19 means, basically, You have a good chance to cause 4 wounds, a low chance to cause 5 wounds, a very low chance to cause 3, and an extremely low chance to cause 6 or 2. It doesn't mean "over 4 wounds, round up to 5".
I think Jan's original point that bringing a Riptide down to 1 wound makes it a lot weaker since, especially without FnP, it would be afraid to Nova. Riptides want to Nova.
However, looking at the LVO lists and how common the Wing is, I don't think this point applies any longer. Even at 1 wound, the Riptide is free to Nova quite a bit, and with the other bonuses the firepower will be very impressive.
let me add perspective:
You say you don't "know too many" that can... then give an example as common as rain. Grav Cents. why would you say one, followed by the other? A lot of armies can bring to bear the weapons needed to nuke the one Riptide. But here is the more important factoid: I din't NEED to kill all the Ripides. because i did what I suggested: saturate and punch. Saturate and punch won this game, not some silly argument over one single dice roll going one way or another.
Second, the Tau (him) didnt "struggle with" my Rhinos. He blew a bunch up, which I mentioned. But they stopped being targets pretty much from round 3 onward (for the most part) because I was at that point punching his face. he had other fish to fry.
Also since you may not know, Our rhinos are not the same as other rhinos. they have a 6+ invul save. Just worthy of note. In fact everything in the army does.
I'm not really disposed to arguing with anyone any longer about the reality that the dice should average more than 4 wounds. Not less. More. there are no decimals on dice. So any one roll that he rolls below average dooms him if I also roll average. This is repeatable because it happens all the time. Average doesnt actually exist. Also: I suppose i could have shot it again if it was that big of a deal. I also could have unloaded more Dominions instead of firing from inside. So all of this fighting over one roll of a die in a Warhammer game is wasted energy, honestly. Again: you cant wish it back to life.
I killed one Riptide but i wasn't left "vulnerable" until round 3. At that point, I used Canoness to make me NOT vulnerable in a meaningful way. YES he killed some more stuff but he couldnt kill the thing that mattered the most.
He was forced to move to save his other two riptides in Round 2 so by the time he super duper fired (and he did eventually) it was a bit late to stop me from becoming entrenched. once entrenched it was all down hill.
This illustrates my point though: saturate and punch their faces. one other note. super duper ripple firing also doesn't do as much when the enemy units are smaller or less expensive as the case may be. MSU works better against Riptide Wing of course. He used it in rounds 3,4 and 5.
It was a good fight. It is worth mentioning, again and a hundred times after: Saturate and punch the Tau Empire.
You can't call grav cents, specifically th star, as common as rain. It's one unit in one codex and you're likely to see only 1-2 total in an army.
If it was plasma, for example, that's pretty common. Str 6 is common as well. But Grav and on a specific unit? Not common, by definition.
The rhino remark was someone else commenting that tides and tau struggled against. A 1/6 invul is nice but not a big deal. It's not beating cover for example.
Yoyoyo, so out of all the options in the game, 2 come to mind? Or a type of list that isn't popular, high av spam?
Yeah, think we can conclude that Riptides in a wing are quite strong.
Edit, jan, did he use the wing formation? Sorry if you mentioned it I couldn't tell.
Akiasura wrote: You can't call grav cents, specifically th star, as common as rain. It's one unit in one codex and you're likely to see only 1-2 total in an army.
If it was plasma, for example, that's pretty common. Str 6 is common as well. But Grav and on a specific unit? Not common, by definition.
The rhino remark was someone else commenting that tides and tau struggled against. A 1/6 invul is nice but not a big deal. It's not beating cover for example.
Yoyoyo, so out of all the options in the game, 2 come to mind? Or a type of list that isn't popular, high av spam?
Yeah, think we can conclude that Riptides in a wing are quite strong.
Edit, jan, did he use the wing formation? Sorry if you mentioned it I couldn't tell.
Grav Cents are one unit in one codex that itself is common as rain. Lol. and it can be allied in. and frequently is!
I wasn't claiming any greatness for the rhino. I was correcting his thought that the "rhinos are rhinos". the 6+ saved me two (total) hull points during the game which is a big deal sometimes. It can be the difference between ONE riptide trying to kill it vs. one Riptide and Fire Warriors squad for example. Not a big deal on a forum. BIG deal when its an actual battle.
And i think we, none of us, said it wasn't strong. the thread is dedicated to what you can do ABOUT it. I have illustrated one thing you can do about it. I might add, using an army no one thinks much of. I disagree, of course, but thats the common opinion.
So if Martel is willing, then he may see some virtue in what i did and attempt to emulate it in the way his army allows. We understand that he cannot exactly emulate it. Given. But it is one way to skin the cat. So I skinned it.
BA are fast. Faster than any other marine chapter, actually, even the White Scars. I can get an entire list into my opponent's deployment zone with two movement phases. It's disgusting that this is not fast enough against Tau in general.
As I said somewhere, I'm gonna try more stormshields.
Sure, in sm they are commonly taken (despite what was said in other threads). I think we just disagree on the term common, but I see your point and agree with it.
Rhinos I agree. I don't think rhinos, outside of gladius, are a problem for tau. Someone, not you, claimed that. I don't think your 6 invul made the tau player suddenly freak out about your rhinos either. I think a riptide most likely won't fire at the rhino, but if it had to, the wing helps a lot. That formation is absurd.
You may not be arguing that the riptide isn't too strong, but many others are. Sorry, wasn't directed at you.
yes, the FW can glance it at 30", a full FW squad shooting their 12 shots, hitting 6 glancing front armor on 6s is a very real threat. but 1 glance average per squad on a troop delivery system, that costs 35 points, (i guess 45 for BA, but can move 12 and flat out another 12 being fast) should get you pretty close in 1 turn, and have ablative wounds that take out a very expendable rhino over your damage dealing troops.
if you play the standard deployment, there are 24" between your deployment zones (12" off center line) your BA rhinos should be on the edge of enemies deployment zone first turn. and then waste the Fire power to pop them. if they are wrecked instead of destroyed (guaranteed if glanced to death, or pened with the ap4 broadsides you fear), you can use the hull to block LOS to other more damaging units. even if you score hits and wounds, if you have no los you cannot allocate wounds and any extra go to waste.
pumaman1 wrote: yes, the FW can glance it at 30", a full FW squad shooting their 12 shots, hitting 6 glancing front armor on 6s is a very real threat. but 1 glance average per squad on a troop delivery system, that costs 35 points, (i guess 45 for BA, but can move 12 and flat out another 12 being fast) should get you pretty close in 1 turn, and have ablative wounds that take out a very expendable rhino over your damage dealing troops.
if you play the standard deployment, there are 24" between your deployment zones (12" off center line) your BA rhinos should be on the edge of enemies deployment zone first turn. and then waste the Fire power to pop them. if they are wrecked instead of destroyed (guaranteed if glanced to death, or pened with the ap4 broadsides you fear), you can use the hull to block LOS to other more damaging units. even if you score hits and wounds, if you have no los you cannot allocate wounds and any extra go to waste.
There's also HYMP, crisis suits and Stormsurge. These are obviously much bigger threats.
You have a nasty habit of going outside of the stated example to complain some more. Your complaint was about FW able to glance rhinos, so i commented on that. If it had been about missile sides can pen rhinos (cannot explode) i would have addressed it.
And again, hide your units behind your dead rhino, and they aren't allowed to allocate wounds to you, because they cannot see you. ignores cover doesn't ignore LOS, only SMS can, and you'll get armor saves.
and if a unit of missile sides shoots at you, it is likely to be a unit of 3 (all with ewo so no target lock to split, because max 1 support) that is 210 points to kill 1 rhino. you won that encounter.
if a storm surge is shooting at your rhino.. why? at 360 points it should be targeting devastators/hq/cent squads, or have its own distraction units. and every 3 HP is a victory point for you being a low.
I will agree with you Martel, successful tau lists require working together to get the most/enough out of the units. As an army, its more clear/straightforward that it is required/how to do it.
pumaman1 wrote: I will agree with you Martel, successful tau lists require working together to get the most/enough out of the units. As an army, its more clear/straightforward that it is required/how to do it.
BA don't even get a librarian conclave, so there's very little synergy.
Martel732 wrote: Rhinos are good vs Riptides, but are poor vs the rest of the Tau army. Their troops can glance it out at 30". Only the Eldar are better.
Rhinos aren't acary. they are just extremely good at ablation. That is the true power of the Battle company as well. It ablates enemy fire incredibly well. I will point out that in ITC missions which put a much bigger focus on the number of things killed, they aren't as good as say pure eternal war missions where essentially only one mission disadvantages them. So it is fair to say.
The Rhinos for Sisters of Battle are an absolute necessity in 7E. I went from an army of Sisters that literally had zero armor in it to an army that now has NINE Rhino in it. That is how drastic the change has been for them. Adapt or die though, so that's what I did.
Bharring wrote: I don't often advocate using multiple books, but what's to stop you from saying "These Libbys? Yeah, they're Iron Hands" with your BA models?
The fact that he wants to strictly run Blood Angels?
Honestly, if I were going to suggest he do something like that--I would advocate just using the Librarius Conclave formation that they released for Dark Angels.
I dont care what Martel wants to play as long as he's willing to adapt. But he takes particular joy in flaggelating himself over and over by rejecting any and all suggestions to help and of course... will not give GW "a dime" in order to change.
My suggestion to literally anyone who isn't willing to change is to be ready for consequences. They are coming. I don't think that's arrogant to say. I think its tough love. At some point someone has to tell him what he needs to hear and in my opinion what he needs to hear is that his enjoyment of complaining is holding him back.
I think martel seems like a very nice person who is very VERY down on his faction and he wants worse than anything for it to be what it was in 5E. And it was a juggernaut in 5E. Good generals splattered people all over the place with them, playing them like Necrons. Lol.
Those days are gone and I want Martel to start splattering people again, but he has GOT to listen to successful stories and he has got to adapt. Most importantly he needs to stop for a moment RIGHT before he hits the SUBMIT button and read what he's about to submit and ask himself whether or not its a "Blood Angels suck" comment. Then if he finds it to be one, erase it. No one needs to be told what the struggle is a hundred times. We need the solutions.
I don't often agree with him but that was well said.
Wait till the day when you embrace the awesomeness that is Mutilators
Akiasura wrote: Yoyoyo, so out of all the options in the game, 2 come to mind? Or a type of list that isn't popular, high av spam?
Yeah, think we can conclude that Riptides in a wing are quite strong.
Well, Beasthunter ABG Vanquishers can do it, or Tzeentch psykers with the D-shot, or ID and Force weapons, or Mirror of Minds and LD debuffs, or a lot of other crap, but I'm not nearly pedantic enough to list everything in the game.
It's a very strong unit in an even stronger formation (in other news water is wet), this is the kind of stuff that used to be Apoc only and GW has been slowly working into 40k. You know what? I don't think a Warhound Titan would be out of place at this point. I don't see things ever changing back, if you want to play "classic hammer" we need new list construction restrictions, where poor bloody infantry are troops (not bikes, not 15pt spore mines), and strong non-troops choices are extremely limited. "Free points" are another indicator of Apoc-style bloat, games at 1850pts aren't finishing at tournaments because it effectively translates into more models. Bravo GW, pretty sneaky.
Seriously -- how many of Martel's firepower and survivability issues would be solved by a Titan? It might be fighting 2 Stormsurges anyway. The game has reached that level of craziness, 100%.
If he could squeeze a Warhound into his list, it would go a long way to solving a lot of problems. It's not exactly polite, but when you start flinging around D weapons, even things that are as tough as Riptides have to sit up and take notice. It would certainly take all the fire off of his BA too. Who shoots at assault marines with high STR/AP weapons when there's a Warhound on the table and shooting back?
Martel732 wrote: BA are fast. Faster than any other marine chapter, actually, even the White Scars. I can get an entire list into my opponent's deployment zone with two movement phases. It's disgusting that this is not fast enough against Tau in general.
What's disgusting to me is that most people won't be happy until they can be in assault with a Tau army on turn one. People are going to cry if Tau get to shoot at all.
Akiasura wrote: Yoyoyo, so out of all the options in the game, 2 come to mind? Or a type of list that isn't popular, high av spam?
Yeah, think we can conclude that Riptides in a wing are quite strong.
Well, Beasthunter ABG Vanquishers can do it, or Tzeentch psykers with the D-shot, or ID and Force weapons, or Mirror of Minds and LD debuffs, or a lot of other crap, but I'm not nearly pedantic enough to list everything in the game.
We covered many of these.
The beasthunter is interesting, although it requires selecting from a list that isn't great and suffers from being a tank against the tau. It's also part of a high AV spam list.
Force weapons and Tzeentch psyker powers are still short ranged compared to the riptide. WC 3 and a to hit roll means you need a psyker spam army, I'm not sure its actually better than just going with something fast and melee focused instead.
Similar issues with the LD equipment, too short ranged and on few units.
Outside of the beast hunter, none of these are a counter for 3, which we seem to be seeing in tournaments. The ITC nerfs to destroyer weapons don't help.
Regardless, it does some like high AV spam is the surest counter. You could argue the beasthunter fits into the previously mentioned list style.
I'm not saying it doesn't have counters, just that there aren't many out there. Centstar for one, probably a screamer star too.
It's a very strong unit in an even stronger formation (in other news water is wet), this is the kind of stuff that used to be Apoc only and GW has been slowly working into 40k. You know what? I don't think a Warhound Titan would be out of place at this point. I don't see things ever changing back, if you want to play "classic hammer" we need new list construction restrictions, where poor bloody infantry are troops (not bikes, not 15pt spore mines), and strong non-troops choices are extremely limited. "Free points" are another indicator of Apoc-style bloat, games at 1850pts aren't finishing at tournaments because it effectively translates into more models. Bravo GW, pretty sneaky.
You say that, but we've had several posters saying the Riptide is fine throughout the thread. That's what the discussion was about.
It's toughness came up since the biggest point of contention about the piece is how hard it is to remove. If it had less wounds, a 3+ save, less range (one of those) the complaints would die down.
I'd be all for a 4+ save personally. That would make you seriously think about how you use your nova charges and when you use it to boost a weapon the riptide is actually vulnerable for a turn.
4+ makes no sense whatsoever, though. It's bigger and has heavier armor than any of the smaller battlesuits but it has a worse save?
I'd also find it incredibly difficult to justify the armor saves for a lot of units in 40k if people seriously think the riptide should have a 4+. A riptide is a titanic robot with tank armor and a tank gun strapped to its arm that can easily step on a Space Marine with a 3+ armor save. If the riptide isn't at least as hard as the Marine then that's just bullgak, straight-up.
Personally I'd rather knock wounds off or just get rid of the nova charge mechanic altogether than give it the same armor save as a fething infantrymen wearing some padding.
Who cares about armour when you've got a 3++ unless you choose to boost a weapon.
If you really want to use fluff as an excuse to justify stats - it's an enormous jetpack unit. Armour is light to keep weight down. Plus it has huge exposed joint mechanisms.
Martel732 wrote: BA are fast. Faster than any other marine chapter, actually, even the White Scars. I can get an entire list into my opponent's deployment zone with two movement phases. It's disgusting that this is not fast enough against Tau in general.
What's disgusting to me is that most people won't be happy until they can be in assault with a Tau army on turn one. People are going to cry if Tau get to shoot at all.
They always fething have, too.
While true, Tau shouldn't get to turn the Assault phase into a second Shooting phase.
Martel732 wrote: BA are fast. Faster than any other marine chapter, actually, even the White Scars. I can get an entire list into my opponent's deployment zone with two movement phases. It's disgusting that this is not fast enough against Tau in general.
What's disgusting to me is that most people won't be happy until they can be in assault with a Tau army on turn one. People are going to cry if Tau get to shoot at all.
They always fething have, too.
As long as Tau can come close to tabling another army with one turn of shooting, the crying is justified.
As long as Tau can come close to tabling another army with one turn of shooting, the crying is justified.
I think what Sidstyler was implying was that this expectation (or crying as you put it) has been going on long before 6th edition and has always followed the Tau around to some degree or another.
Martel732 wrote: Yeah, the 4 th ed tau codex was totally dominant. /snark
4th had the gimmicky fish of fury lists, but even in 3rd and 5th there was always a strangely large amount of players that felt Tau shouldn't be allowed to stop or compete in close combat (which basically means that they didn't want Tau to ever be competitive). Despite having a pretty strong player base from their introduction in 3rd, Tau have always been one of the most hated factions.
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Martel732 wrote: Fish of fury was good, but not nearly as good as they are now.
Indeed, and by the end of 4th even fish of fury wasn't enough to truly compete against some of the more competitive lists. Tau in 4th were a lot like Tyranids in 6th. They had a generally bad codex that was propped up by a single unit (flyrants/devilfishes).
Akiasura wrote: If you guys ever want to hit the goal post we'd set early on in the thread, I'd listen
It wasn't a problem of wanting, it was getting the opposition to show up! The spectre of possible defeat and ensuing public ridicule can be quite discouraging
Akiasura wrote: ...we've had several posters saying the Riptide is fine throughout the thread. That's what the discussion was about.
They are fine if you're playing against 5x Wraithknights, and that's a 100% legal battleforged 40k list. Devil's advocate, right?
At the end of the day GW does not exercise tight control over how players set up the game, points are not a qualitative measure of effectiveness and you can't dynamically tailor your army like in an RTS. Apocalypse-style formations which were meant to help "small toy" units against "big toy" GMCs and SHVs don't balance anything against a 40kCAD, and in certain cases GW writers are straight up copy-pasting entries across. Of course it's broken. Look at auxiliaries within faction detachments. Let's just give Deathmarks and Flayed Ones a 4+ RP, because.... well who cares about reasons? That's power creep baby! There is no baseline of comparison at all anymore. The CAD has been abandoned and nothing really restricts choices (5 Flyrants? Really?). There's no longer the same focus on core troops that evens out balance between factions. Meanwhile, formation special rules jack up power at the whims of the GW rules teams, and obviously deadlines and the coffee machine running dry will affect quality. It's the apocalypse dude!
Riptide Wing exists within the perspective of these other problems. You cannot take an army of 2x Stormsurges, 3x Riptides, and a Marker Drone formation against a BACAD with 5th edition TAC choices and call that balance. I mean you could play it but narratively, wouldn't you at least try and set up an interesting scenario that's not a shooting gallery?
You can tailor like crazy for meta but this is still either bad design, an outdated update model causing frustration, players not accepting reality, or a mix of all three. That said, as the player your only option is to pass through these stages:
Denial - I used to win a lot, my poor outdated army can still compete. I'm gonna manage
Anger - I really want to smash Wraithknights and Riptides with a mallet. Feth you all
Bargaining - Maybe I can get a Knight Warden
Acceptance - My army is not competitive. Let's play kill team instead
Martel732 wrote: Yeah, the 4 th ed tau codex was totally dominant. /snark
4th had the gimmicky fish of fury lists, but even in 3rd and 5th there was always a strangely large amount of players that felt Tau shouldn't be allowed to stop or compete in close combat (which basically means that they didn't want Tau to ever be competitive). Despite having a pretty strong player base from their introduction in 3rd, Tau have always been one of the most hated factions.
To an extent, it had a lot to do with the perception that they were just an "anime" styled faction. There's a lot of people who love them because of that reason and hate them for the same reason.
I cannot genuinely think of anyone suggesting that Tau shouldn't be allowed to compete in close combat beyond Tau players trying to use that as an excuse as to why their shooting abilities needed to be buffed up significantly.
Prior to the last two Tau books, Tau did not have a way to "stop close combat" beyond shooting an enemy to death in the shooting phase. It's gotten really out of hand with the addition of Supporting Fire for Overwatch. Tau units, coupled with gimmicks like the Ethereal Invocation of Elements and its "Storm of Fire" from an embarked Ethereal in a Devilfish and the Fireblade's "Volley Fire" ability, put out an absurd amount of fire in the Shooting phase.
Add in the fact that the "Storm of Fire" ability also affects Overwatch and things like the Longshot Pulse Rifle and they're putting out as much fire as an equivalent points of Guardsmen with far less model count.
I cannot genuinely think of anyone suggesting that Tau shouldn't be allowed to compete in close combat beyond Tau players trying to use that as an excuse as to why their shooting abilities needed to be buffed up significantly.
As a tau player that often allies Daemons to my lists I get it all the time. When I don't ally daemons I hear people complain Tau are boring since it reduces the game to just their shooting phase which is a fair point, so I add daemons, and then I get people complaining that Tau shouldn't have good assault units because it removes the one weakness they had (despite every point I spend on daemons being a point i'm not spending on Tau firepower). Even back in 3rd edition when Chapter Approved released the Kroot Kindred's Mercenary list I used to moan how other armies now had access to better Kroot than Tau did. The argument I would hear is that allowing Tau access to kroot kindreds would give Tau access to winged Kroot, and shapers that could take eviscerators, and that giving the Tau some decent assault options would make them overpowered. (Despite Tau being one of the worst armies in 3rd).
Prior to the last two Tau books, Tau did not have a way to "stop close combat" beyond shooting an enemy to death in the shooting phase.
In 5th Tau were one of the worst factions.
It's gotten really out of hand with the addition of Supporting Fire for Overwatch. Tau units, coupled with gimmicks like the Ethereal Invocation of Elements and its "Storm of Fire" from an embarked Ethereal in a Devilfish and the Fireblade's "Volley Fire" ability, put out an absurd amount of fire in the Shooting phase.
Add in the fact that the "Storm of Fire" ability also affects Overwatch and things like the Longshot Pulse Rifle and they're putting out as much fire as an equivalent points of Guardsmen with far less model count.
I agree a lot of Tau units and abilities could use a nerf, I never claimed otherwise, my initial point was explaining Sidstyler's comment of Tau being hated on by an unfortunately large group of people whether they are overpowered or not.
If I knew I were playing Tau, and I owned the SRs, I'd use it all the time. However, since I don't know my opponents, I never saw a reason to get the SRs for that formation.
That relic jump pack does wonders for making sure units stick on the board and don't get intercepted by that s8ap2 blast. Last game I played against Tau with my blood angels I won. I used DC in a spartan with ceramite, 10 strong sanguinary guard with Dante and a Priest w/ relic jump pack, 2x fragioso dreads in pods, and some tac squads in pods w/ heavy flamer. The tau list had missilesides with buffmander, riptide, pathfinders, kroot, firewarriors, and other bits and bobs. It did not have a ghostkeel or stormsurge.
Turn one I dropped a dread and the heavy flamer squad and he killed most of the heavy flamer squad in intercept but I positioned correctly and the flamer lived and roasted marker drones. The fragioso didn't get intercepted and roasted a ton of pathfinders, as the riptide went after the marines and the broadsides decided to wait because tank hunter from the buffmander wasn't active yet (I went first). Turn 1 I had removed 90% of his marker light sources before he got to use them. When Dante showed up, I deep struck them in ruins for the 4+ cover which the Tau player couldn't remove as he had lost too many marker lights. Another furioso came down and gave the tau player fits because Tau have a real hard time dealing with av13 in intercept. Turn 3 I multi-assaulted everything in his deployment zone and wiped all everything out.
The take-aways from this anecdotal story is as follows: Tau have a hard time versus land raiders that are melta-proof. The Relic JP is amazing at making sure your scary jump unit sticks the landing and lives through the snap shot intercept. Burn ALL the markerlights with (heavy) flamers (heavy flamers for drones, frag cannons/flamers for pathfinders). Present multiple threats and you can overwhelm their shooting.
Also, from previous experience versus Tau, Imperial Knights give them fits. The combo of AV13 and a 4++ in the direction of their scary guns makes it a high priority target that absorbs a TON of fire before it goes down.
This thread is ridiculous. Mods please close this.
Martel, If you don't want to play BA because you lose all the time, then give up on them. Don't sell them because you still love them. Shelve the army until the BA's get a new codex.
As a side note, Have you even posted everything you own for BA? Perhaps people can help your lists if they knew what you had.
Next, Martel, Like others have said, you seem to complain a lot but don't seem to want to update your models, play style or tactics.
We have a tau player in our FLGS who bought a whole blood angels army and loves playing them. HE HAS ALSO BOUGHT more models for the army. AND HE WINS, against other armies that are power armies.
HOW? MSU. Drops 9 drop pods with meltas, plasma and flamers. and uses LOS blocking cover to his advantage. Ignores most tau armor. Ignores MCs or ties them up in combat.
Lastly. What kind of terrain do you play on? If you can't seemingly do anything because you are getting shot off the board in turn 1, you do not have enough terrain for this game. Or you're really bad at deployment.
I play tau. loved tau from DOW games. they were my first army. the first year of gaming was done in my basement against my friend. He was also new and gravitated towards chaos and tyrannids.
I lost a lot of games. far more than i ever won. Why? Lots of Terrain, MSU and SPEED! I had too many things to shoot at. He was in my face to fast. Wiped out most units in close combat. I couldn't shoot easily, there were 3 pieces of terrain per 1x1 square. At least 1 LOS blocking piece per 2x2 square.
Play to the mission. Stop playing Eternal war. Tau are terrible at capturing objectives.
Yoyoyo,
If you're just going to ignore everyone's points and insuinate things about people, I think it's best you go on the ignore list. Clearly you aren't interested in a debate but instead some pseudo intellectual measuring contest.
First time I've ever had to use that in all my years on any forum. I suppose that's an accomplishment.
Martel,
I would be interested in what you own as well.
Martel732 wrote: BA are fast. Faster than any other marine chapter, actually, even the White Scars. I can get an entire list into my opponent's deployment zone with two movement phases. It's disgusting that this is not fast enough against Tau in general.
What's disgusting to me is that most people won't be happy until they can be in assault with a Tau army on turn one. People are going to cry if Tau get to shoot at all.
They always fething have, too.
As long as Tau can come close to tabling another army with one turn of shooting, the crying is justified.
Mulletdude wrote: That relic jump pack does wonders for making sure units stick on the board and don't get intercepted by that s8ap2 blast. Last game I played against Tau with my blood angels I won. I used DC in a spartan with ceramite, 10 strong sanguinary guard with Dante and a Priest w/ relic jump pack, 2x fragioso dreads in pods, and some tac squads in pods w/ heavy flamer. The tau list had missilesides with buffmander, riptide, pathfinders, kroot, firewarriors, and other bits and bobs. It did not have a ghostkeel or stormsurge.
Sounds as though you did a good job of exploiting Tau weaknesses against a pretty friendly Tau list. From what you've described, your opponent wasn't playing anything close to what someone might call competitive. You're absolutely right about the effectiveness of the Spartan, outside of Hammerhead railguns there is almost nothing in the Tau army that can even dent the front armour of a ceramite Spartan. It's expensive but it will ensure you get your deathstar to where it needs to be.
Almost all Tau shooting is highly reliant on its markerlights to be of any use. Most armies have tools capable of removing markerlights from the board enmasse. People talk about the riptide have T6 5W 2+/5+/5++ and complain it's tough but seem to be oblivious to the fact that it can neutered by removing the markerlights. It's not a 225 pt mosterous creature with S8 AP2 large blast that ignores cover. It needs other unit's synergy to ignore cover. It's like saying Khorne Hounds are OP because they can be Invisible, or that they are too tough and should be nerfed because they can be invisible.
Mulletdude wrote: That relic jump pack does wonders for making sure units stick on the board and don't get intercepted by that s8ap2 blast. Last game I played against Tau with my blood angels I won. I used DC in a spartan with ceramite, 10 strong sanguinary guard with Dante and a Priest w/ relic jump pack, 2x fragioso dreads in pods, and some tac squads in pods w/ heavy flamer. The tau list had missilesides with buffmander, riptide, pathfinders, kroot, firewarriors, and other bits and bobs. It did not have a ghostkeel or stormsurge.
Sounds as though you did a good job of exploiting Tau weaknesses against a pretty friendly Tau list. From what you've described, your opponent wasn't playing anything close to what someone might call competitive. You're absolutely right about the effectiveness of the Spartan, outside of Hammerhead railguns there is almost nothing in the Tau army that can even dent the front armour of a ceramite Spartan. It's expensive but it will ensure you get your deathstar to where it needs to be.
Almost all Tau shooting is highly reliant on its markerlights to be of any use. Most armies have tools capable of removing markerlights from the board enmasse. People talk about the riptide have T6 5W 2+/5+/5++ and complain it's tough but seem to be oblivious to the fact that it can neutered by removing the markerlights. It's not a 225 pt mosterous creature with S8 AP2 large blast that ignores cover. It needs other unit's synergy to ignore cover. It's like saying Khorne Hounds are OP because they can be Invisible, or that they are too tough and should be nerfed because they can be invisible.
THIS GUY 100%.
Kill the marker lights. 5 man pathfinder squad has 5 wounds, T3 and 5+ armor.
Akiasura wrote: If you're just going to ignore everyone's points and insinuate things about people, I think it's best you go on the ignore list. Clearly you aren't interested in a debate but instead some pseudo intellectual measuring contest.
First time I've ever had to use that in all my years on any forum. I suppose that's an accomplishment.
LOL
You need to grow some thicker skin Aki.
Make good points and I'll prop you, I don't have a fragile ego and I don't hold grudges.
Naaris wrote: This thread is ridiculous. Mods please close this.
Martel, If you don't want to play BA because you lose all the time, then give up on them. Don't sell them because you still love them. Shelve the army until the BA's get a new codex.
As a side note, Have you even posted everything you own for BA? Perhaps people can help your lists if they knew what you had.
Next, Martel, Like others have said, you seem to complain a lot but don't seem to want to update your models, play style or tactics.
We have a tau player in our FLGS who bought a whole blood angels army and loves playing them. HE HAS ALSO BOUGHT more models for the army. AND HE WINS, against other armies that are power armies.
HOW? MSU. Drops 9 drop pods with meltas, plasma and flamers. and uses LOS blocking cover to his advantage. Ignores most tau armor. Ignores MCs or ties them up in combat.
Lastly. What kind of terrain do you play on? If you can't seemingly do anything because you are getting shot off the board in turn 1, you do not have enough terrain for this game. Or you're really bad at deployment.
I play tau. loved tau from DOW games. they were my first army. the first year of gaming was done in my basement against my friend. He was also new and gravitated towards chaos and tyrannids.
I lost a lot of games. far more than i ever won. Why? Lots of Terrain, MSU and SPEED! I had too many things to shoot at. He was in my face to fast. Wiped out most units in close combat. I couldn't shoot easily, there were 3 pieces of terrain per 1x1 square. At least 1 LOS blocking piece per 2x2 square.
Play to the mission. Stop playing Eternal war. Tau are terrible at capturing objectives.
When this individual loads up 9 drop pods full of BA, does he know he's playing Tau? Because that list sounds like suicide against say, GK.
Asura Varuna wrote: You're absolutely right about the effectiveness of the Spartan, outside of Hammerhead railguns there is almost nothing in the Tau army that can even dent the front armour of a ceramite Spartan. It's expensive but it will ensure you get your deathstar to where it needs to be.
Well, S9 AP2 Ordnance isn't exactly terrible. Plus these days you're potentially looking at D-Strength missiles too if a Stormsurge is kicking around.
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Martel732 wrote: When this individual loads up 9 drop pods full of BA, does he know he's playing Tau? Because that list sounds like suicide against say, GK.
As you said yourself Martel, it's all about picking your problems. If you want to defeat Tau, you are going to have to make adjustments.
I think I'd rather lose to Tau and keep doing okay against GK. If that's the choice I'm having to make. I think that drop pods for BA are a mistake in general, because it's not taking advantage of fast vehicles or furious charge.
Why does everyone care about this? It's absolutely useless to argue about. I've read both blood angel and tau codexes and the conclusion is that GW is gonna change the rules as they see fit.
Martel732 wrote: I think I'd rather lose to Tau and keep doing okay against GK. If that's the choice I'm having to make. I think that drop pods for BA are a mistake in general, because it's not taking advantage of fast vehicles or furious charge.
What is all this nonsense about tau being terrible at capturing objectives? Riptides are great at it even though they don't need to be. Devilfish are really hard to kill and objective secured to boot - kind like a cheaper waveserpent. Suits move quickly...you can make drone chains out of your immobile units to cap points. Deep strike is an option. Essentially the only immobile units in the tau army are broadsides and every army has units like that and they aren't called "terrible at capping objectives" They don't have 20 objective secured scatter bikes but dang - everyone looks immobile compared to that crap.
Martel732 wrote: I think I'd rather lose to Tau and keep doing okay against GK. If that's the choice I'm having to make. I think that drop pods for BA are a mistake in general, because it's not taking advantage of fast vehicles or furious charge.
Martel732 wrote: BA are fast. Faster than any other marine chapter, actually, even the White Scars. I can get an entire list into my opponent's deployment zone with two movement phases. It's disgusting that this is not fast enough against Tau in general.
What's disgusting to me is that most people won't be happy until they can be in assault with a Tau army on turn one. People are going to cry if Tau get to shoot at all.
They always fething have, too.
While true, Tau shouldn't get to turn the Assault phase into a second Shooting phase.
You mean the one army wide buff that Tau have lol? Sure just remove that too
Honestly vehicles suck this edition unless they're a SH. The fast vehicles are cool and fluffly, but ultimately bad because the only fast vehicles are rhino chassis. The chassis suffers from really wide side arcs and av11 on those arcs no matter which variant you get. Furious Charge is a joke and will never be that useful. All the good deathstars rely on high base attacks and strength (looking at you, wolves), so they can get away with multi-charging without losing much of anything. Trying to build a list to take advantage of the BA's special attributes is building a list to fail, I'm afraid.
The best thing I've found is to use the standouts in the codex and try to rely on their strength to get ahead. DC got nerfed from 5th to 7th, so I don't tend to run them (JP marines are bad, JPDC aren't that much better). Furioso's are the best unit in the codex because they can threaten a lot with their frag cannon (everything). Don't be tempted by Frag/Flamer on them, stick with the melta. Sang Guard are good too, but only with a Priest and Dante, then the unit ends up being some 700 points and takes up too large a chunk of your army. Honestly, the scariest BA list you can make @ 1850 is probably 10 Furioso's in pods with Frag/Melta and 2 libbys.
Martel732 wrote: I think I'd rather lose to Tau and keep doing okay against GK. If that's the choice I'm having to make. I think that drop pods for BA are a mistake in general, because it's not taking advantage of fast vehicles or furious charge.
I'm not sure i really see that.
Perhaps because you don't play BA.
I play AGAINST a BA player who makes extensive ue of pods, as I've mentioned. His list is very god at both choosing when to hold em and when to fold em. He is adept at its use. And I don't see the Pods adding to any lack of mobility nor being LESS effective against my Tau Empire.
I also have played a while.
You have said openly you won't change. That's fine. Let the consequences of that stand and be what they are.
Asura Varuna wrote: You're absolutely right about the effectiveness of the Spartan, outside of Hammerhead railguns there is almost nothing in the Tau army that can even dent the front armour of a ceramite Spartan. It's expensive but it will ensure you get your deathstar to where it needs to be.
Well, S9 AP2 Ordnance isn't exactly terrible. Plus these days you're potentially looking at D-Strength missiles too if a Stormsurge is kicking around.
Spartan reduces the S of any attacks against its front armour by 1 EDIT: ONLY with flareshield (thought that would in fact make it -2 S here). Not certain whether the 40k version even gets Flareshield /EDIT.
I thought "Destroyer Missiles" were S8 AP1 one use only (basically glorified seekers/hunterkillers). But yes you could potentially fire 2 D Strength shots from the Pulse Blast cannon if you're within 10". If you're unable to remove the markerlight support then that's likely going to be a kill even on a 5HP Spartan. You could also assault the Spartan with your Stormsurge and pray for a 6 on the stomp table. Or assault the Spartan with Firewarriors with EMP grenades - actually probably one of the best ways to bring it down actually, but rarely practical if you're trying to prevent it from delivering its payload of choppy melee troops.
You have said openly you won't change. That's fine. Let the consequences of that stand and be what they are.
I think you have it the wrong way around here, Jancoran. You should learn from Martel - he is a player who knows what he is doing and, since he doesn't know what he will face ahead of time, builds a list that is as TAC as possible instead of tailoring. Not only is tailoring kind of TFG in itself, it is also bad since in Martel's case it will lose him more against other enemies than it will gain him against Tau.
That he loses against Riptidetau is not his fault as a general, it is because Tau as a faction are by far stronger than BA.
IOW you should commend him on the decisions he makes and look up to him, not deride him.
Because I totally want drop Furiosos against Necrons. It must be nice to have S6/7 spam and not make these kinds of decisions.
I've got all kinds of lists. Lists with 30 scouts, lists with a bunch of AV 13 still (flesh tearer detachments make this happen), lists with a lot of bikes, etc. I change lists constantly. And now I've got archangel sanguine wing in the rotation.
You have said openly you won't change. That's fine. Let the consequences of that stand and be what they are.
I think you have it the wrong way around here, Jancoran. You should learn from Martel - he is a player who knows what he is doing and, since he doesn't know what he will face ahead of time, builds a list that is as TAC as possible instead of tailoring. Not only is tailoring kind of TFG in itself, it is also bad since in Martel's case it will lose him more against other enemies than it will gain him against Tau.
That he loses against Riptidetau is not his fault as a general, it is because Tau as a faction are by far stronger than BA.
IOW you should commend him on the decisions he makes and look up to him, not deride him.
You...dont think...he knows he will be facing Tau Empire? You think this entire thread didn't inform him well enough on that possibility?
"Tailoring" is a stupid term for what you aretalking about. It's not tailoring to be intelligent in list design and say to yourself "They're out there...better prepare".
You have said openly you won't change. That's fine. Let the consequences of that stand and be what they are.
I think you have it the wrong way around here, Jancoran. You should learn from Martel - he is a player who knows what he is doing and, since he doesn't know what he will face ahead of time, builds a list that is as TAC as possible instead of tailoring. Not only is tailoring kind of TFG in itself, it is also bad since in Martel's case it will lose him more against other enemies than it will gain him against Tau.
That he loses against Riptidetau is not his fault as a general, it is because Tau as a faction are by far stronger than BA.
IOW you should commend him on the decisions he makes and look up to him, not deride him.
You...dont think...he knows he will be facing Tau Empire? You think this entire thread didn't inform him well enough on that possibility?
"Tailoring" is a stupid term for what you aretalking about. It's not tailoring to be intelligent in list design and say to yourself "They're out there...better prepare".
He has OPENLY STATED that he has 0 idea what he faces before he arrives and has no option to the contrary. So no, he doesnt know he will be facing tau, any more tgan he knows if hes facing eldar, crons or CSM.
You...dont think...he knows he will be facing Tau Empire? You think this entire thread didn't inform him well enough on that possibility?
"Tailoring" is a stupid term for what you aretalking about. It's not tailoring to be intelligent in list design and say to yourself "They're out there...better prepare".
It really, REALLY isn't mate.
Most players in his meta are not Tau players. Preparing to fight Tau at the cost of becoming more vulnerable to other armies is not sound.
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Yoyoyo wrote: If it can't beat Tau, it's really not a TAC list is it?
Currently, I do agree that he should grab more fliers as no-one takes anti-air anymore. But, as he has said, he doesnt have that many and doesnt have the ability or will to buy more.
Most armies arent capable of making truly "TAC" lists anymore, where they stand a reasonable chance of victory against any opposing army. The 7.5E armies can, ones with ridiculous formation bonuses and hyped up units, but most pre 2015 armies cannot. You cant really take BA ir IG or CSM or GKs and build an army thats able to reasonably engage Knights, Tau, Eldar, Necrons, FMC spam, deathstars, and the like with a single list. They just dont have the capabilities, particularly without allies.
Vaktathi wrote: Most armies arent capable of making truly "TAC" lists anymore, where they stand a reasonable chance of victory against any opposing army. The 7.5E armies can, ones with ridiculous formation bonuses and hyped up units, but most pre 2015 armies cannot. You cant really take BA ir IG or CSM or GKs and build an army thats able to reasonably engage Knights, Tau, Eldar, Necrons, FMC spam, deathstars, and the like with a single list. They just dont have the capabilities, particularly without allies.
To be fair, even Eldar can't make true TAC any longer. They can deal with just about everything but it's always possible to tailor against them with Titans or the like.
The main problem is more that many armies can't even take TAFAOC (Take A Fair Amount Of Comers) anymore.
You have said openly you won't change. That's fine. Let the consequences of that stand and be what they are.
I think you have it the wrong way around here, Jancoran. You should learn from Martel - he is a player who knows what he is doing and, since he doesn't know what he will face ahead of time, builds a list that is as TAC as possible instead of tailoring. Not only is tailoring kind of TFG in itself, it is also bad since in Martel's case it will lose him more against other enemies than it will gain him against Tau.
That he loses against Riptidetau is not his fault as a general, it is because Tau as a faction are by far stronger than BA.
IOW you should commend him on the decisions he makes and look up to him, not deride him.
You...dont think...he knows he will be facing Tau Empire? You think this entire thread didn't inform him well enough on that possibility?
"Tailoring" is a stupid term for what you aretalking about. It's not tailoring to be intelligent in list design and say to yourself "They're out there...better prepare".
He has OPENLY STATED that he has 0 idea what he faces before he arrives and has no option to the contrary. So no, he doesnt know he will be facing tau, any more tgan he knows if hes facing eldar, crons or CSM.
It really, REALLY isn't mate.
Swampmist... Let me tell you right now: if you go to a tournament and you do not plan for Tau and Eldar, as well as Battle Companies, War Convocations and the list of other common winners at tournaments...
Well... I mean what do you really expect to happen to you? Seriously, I am asking you how you even plan to compete if you intentionally blind yourself to the possibility. Martel here has so much to say ABOUT Tau that I find it incomprehensible that he would not then have seen them on the field! What's he even talking about if he's not even fighting them? How does he even have an opinion in that case?
Anywho, Martel strikes me as a very nice person but he just does not want t o change and that's going to have consequences. I'm sorry. It will for anyone. He's no special snowflake. He doesn't get a pass on that. none of us do.
Most players in his meta are not Tau players. Preparing to fight Tau at the cost of becoming more vulnerable to other armies is not sound.
.
If preparing to fight Tau actually "made him vulnerable" you'd have a point.
You don't have a point, because it doesn't inherently nor automatically do that.
Also: if he's not playing Tau, then where is his opinion coming from? guessing? No. He plays against Tau. His opinion would be worthless if the opposite were true.
Swampmist wrote: Currently, I do agree that he should grab more fliers as no-one takes anti-air anymore. But, as he has said, he doesnt have that many and doesnt have the ability or will to buy more.
Will. Not ability. He has explicitly said he wont pay GW a dime more. You can't get on a forum and engage in a discussion wherein change is anathema to you.
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Ashiraya wrote: Why is it a bad thing when he refuses to weaken his army? Change is not automatically good.
He plans for Eldar, and Tau, and everything else, but he has to do all of it at the same time. Naturally that means he can't focus on a single thing.
"Weaken" it? No one told him to do that so again... if they had...you'd have a point. But no one did. So you dont.
Ok, I can. I play codex marines (both 40k and 30k) so its not hard for me. Melta Sallies, Smash Fether, and Talon strike force are all options I have. BA, without allies, don't. No if, ands, or butts about it. He doesn't have a aeapon that counters literally everything like Grav, atleast not in large enough quantities. To bring enough to reliably do well against tau he has to be prepared to lose horribly to an army like crons or gladius which plays very differently.
Ashiraya wrote: He does not ALWAYS fight against Tau. In fact, most of the time he doesn't.
Good. So plan for Tau anyways. they are coming. MOST things in most lists handle most things in most other lists.
The tweaks that you have to make for facing certain armies can be quite small.
Example: JUST got my butt handed to me last night by a Daemon Flying Circus. I think Ive beaten that army very few times. Not because it is inherently the most powerful thing ever, but that is the way it has turned out. I dont fill pages and pages and PAGES of different threads with "Wowa is me" about it.
But it is a truth that I haven't faced them often and when I have, I have come out on top far less times than I'd like. Very similar circumstance. The difference here is that I know I have to make a change. I get my beating from time to time and it reminds me that as much as I don't want to, I Do need some actually dedicated anti-air in the list to get me over the hump. I am vulnerable, unnecessarily so, when I don't, even though many armies do not have any air. I need to accept that, as few times as I see that list. I gotta' do something about it. I wasn't happy about my beating last night but on the other hand I went to my drawing board, altered the list slightly to compensate for my weakness and now i think if the same game were to happen again, I would probably win it. As it was, i did reasonably well despite the poor matchup in an even poorer mission choice (It was Big Guns Never Tire ITC mission, and I was the only one with a heavy Support, lol). It was what it was.
So Martel needs to use these "instructional" games to remind himself that change is just a necessity. He'll get beat hard every so often and realize "yeah...i really CAN afford to change if I want to play well". The rest of my army was able to kind of work (though when you're rolling with a grimoire and two Invisibility spells on flying stuff...well...) but it needed to be altered. It has been altered and I feel stronger for the reminder. His comment after the game was that the game had convinced him not to even try that list at the upcoming tournament because as good as winning felt, it was a lot closer than he wanted to be and had i been a little more prepared...just a little... It might easily have gone the other way (paraphrased).
lso, Im not gonna blame him for not wanting to buy anymore models, seeing as many BA players got gak on with the new codex when they made assault marines a FA and not a troop. I know that WS players would feel the same if bikers lost their ability to be troops.
Swampmist wrote: Ok, I can. I play codex marines (both 40k and 30k) so its not hard for me. Melta Sallies, Smash Fether, and Talon strike force are all options I have. BA, without allies, don't. No if, ands, or butts about it. He doesn't have a aeapon that counters literally everything like Grav, atleast not in large enough quantities. To bring enough to reliably do well against tau he has to be prepared to lose horribly to an army like crons or gladius which plays very differently.
Decurion is trumped by Obsec, speed and patience. You think these things are going to not fit in a fight with Tau? They will. Gladius can Obsec you to death. To counter that you need... Speed, obsec and... patience? Does this formula sound at all familiar?
If you face Eldar, you are going to need...Speed, board presence because of THEIR speed and speed bumps.
Wait... So the piece that is needed to fight one that isnt common necessarily to the others is...the speed bump unit? Yes! So the tweaks within an army that you have to make can be small.
The anti-air thing: bring some. In whatever form, but bring it. You need to even the odds a little. Yeah not everyone is flying all over you...but they can. And not planning for it is not a great idea. "ignore it" sy some people online and that isnt entirely a bad thing depending on your army but relying on an ability to ignore it and never attack the Air? mmm.... risky.
So you have to look at the army as a tool bag. YES it will look odd to some people but the sum is greater than the individual parts.
Oppressive board presence is a thing. Blood angels do it well. Assault is a thing. Blood Angels can do it well. Are they the worlds finest at either? no. They dont always have to be though so saying they arent isnt a dagger to the heart of your chances.
In this thread we are talking Riptides. anyne in this thread should be acknowledging that the riptide is there and you need to be able to face it...or find another thread that has nothing to do with Riptides!
So let's say a buy 2 more SRs. There are a ton of downsides to Angel's Fury. Look! TWC! I just lost. Because I've got 3 full tac squads that I'm relying on to punch things. That's why I don't have the models for Angel's Fury.
Vaktathi wrote: Most armies arent capable of making truly "TAC" lists anymore, where they stand a reasonable chance of victory against any opposing army. The 7.5E armies can, ones with ridiculous formation bonuses and hyped up units, but most pre 2015 armies cannot. You cant really take BA ir IG or CSM or GKs and build an army thats able to reasonably engage Knights, Tau, Eldar, Necrons, FMC spam, deathstars, and the like with a single list. They just dont have the capabilities, particularly without allies.
This is a recent battle report of the new RG detachments going against multiple Riptides:
Swampmist wrote: lso, Im not gonna blame him for not wanting to buy anymore models, seeing as many BA players got gak on with the new codex when they made assault marines a FA and not a troop. I know that WS players would feel the same if bikers lost their ability to be troops.
Wait. Wait. Wait. You wont BLAME him for it (which I am fine with) but you CAN blame him for complaining about a problem he can solve but chooses not to . THAT is blame worthy. You simply cannot get on a forum and complain about something you allegedly never see (in which case, stop complaining) nor can you complain about how "good they are' when you wont willingly use the Codex you do have (however woeful you may find it personally) to its fullest potential to give the enemy a good game.
And it is a game so i mean... Maybe he should play it for the cinematics. Skip the winning part. But if thats what he's going to do, no more complaining about the cinematics either! Lol.
How do You out speedy obsec a WS Gladius? No seriously, they have more obsec than anyone else, and with scout can be on the midfield holding objectives before anyone else. Fast vehicles are cool, but their not free.
Martel732 wrote: So let's say a buy 2 more SRs. There are a ton of downsides to Angel's Fury. Look! TWC! I just lost. Because I've got 3 full tac squads that I'm relying on to punch things. That's why I don't have the models for Angel's Fury.
Thunder Wolf Cavalry cant kill things that arent on the board. As it turns out. So maybe you need to consider that and plan accordingly? KiLLING the Thunderwolf Cavalry isn't the only way to win and they arent the only targets on the board. Just saying.
TAC doesn't exist. TAC hasn't existed for as long as I've played - there's always going to be some sort of lopsided list spamming X or Y that prevents TAC from working. In a lot of cases, codexes simply lack the tools to even consider taking a TAC list, or even tailoring for a specific threat. Perhaps that's poor game design. Perhaps that's a part of the inherent asymmetrical "balance" that makes 40k exciting.
Really though, BA have a lot of tools. Whether it's from their own codex or with their IoM allies they have a suitably diverse toolkit to deal with almost any particular list. (which is more than can be said for armies such as Orks...). However, a TAC list SHOULD NOT be able to beat every specialised list out there. If you load up on AA, you'll lose to ground troops, if you load up on anti tank, you can lose to infantry and vice versa. If you take a small sample of each, you'll likely lose to any of these lopsided lists. That is simply what 40k is.
If there was a list that was truly TAC, that would be completely and utterly gamebreakingly overpowered. (Basically 7.5 Eldar).
Swampmist wrote: How do You out speedy obsec a WS Gladius? No seriously, they have more obsec than anyone else, and with scout can be on the midfield holding objectives before anyone else. Fast vehicles are cool, but their not free.
Speed doesnt just come in the literal form of movement.
The scouting Battle company is one of the biggest errors of all time. I wont deny I have a disdain for the Battle company and this combination is indeed why Dropp pods were born. lol. Wont deny that one bit. Having said that I have mostly won my games against them (barely). The key was always having enough obsec (dont even leave home without 4-8 units like that), preserving my strength until needed, and then tying the objectives where needed, and i personally have used Outflanking, infiltrating and Deep Striking EXTENSIVELY in almost every army I play. Like a lot. So in the instances when I must, I can overwhelm a certain sector with firepower.
My goal is to simply use the least amount of effort to tie things and then make the end run count. Now this takes: patience. This takes Obsec. And this takes speed.
In my most "famous" build, nearly the entire army can be deployed in some fashion other than plopping it down. i use two Broadsides as my lures, one to each corner and everything else is playing the waiting game, coming in from all sides and doing what I do.
It is UP HILL. But if I dont have those tools, I am as prone to losing to broken things like Battle Companies as you are. Im not special. I lose sometimes. We asll do. But i try to make sure its not because I never could have won. Dice are a thing too.
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Swampmist wrote: Actually, generally people DO play lists made up of only TWC. Its kinda the only big competative build rn.
Well if thats the only one you ever see, you should be fine. their LD suuuuuuucks. attack it. Lol.
There's a difference between TAC "I will beat everyhing" and TAC "I at least have a chance against anything".
The latter was *mostly* possible for *most* armies in previous eras, even if if they were at a disadvantage, but its only possible for a few armies now and they tend to be more that former type. You didnt typically get the one sided buttstomps we often see now with anything near the same regularity.
Asura Varuna wrote: TAC doesn't exist. TAC hasn't existed for as long as I've played - there's always going to be some sort of lopsided list spamming X or Y that prevents TAC from working. In a lot of cases, codexes simply lack the tools to even consider taking a TAC list, or even tailoring for a specific threat. Perhaps that's poor game design. Perhaps that's a part of the inherent asymmetrical "balance" that makes 40k exciting.
Really though, BA have a lot of tools. Whether it's from their own codex or with their IoM allies they have a suitably diverse toolkit to deal with almost any particular list. (which is more than can be said for armies such as Orks...). However, a TAC list SHOULD NOT be able to beat every specialised list out there. If you load up on AA, you'll lose to ground troops, if you load up on anti tank, you can lose to infantry and vice versa. If you take a small sample of each, you'll likely lose to any of these lopsided lists. That is simply what 40k is.
If there was a list that was truly TAC, that would be completely and utterly gamebreakingly overpowered. (Basically 7.5 Eldar).
I would say this: TAC is not just a list. It's a method of using the list that makes them TAC. In other words, such as in the case of my Night Lords, i am not ideally equipped to handle any specific thing. i win through the tactics the build allows. It is EXTREMELY flexible to the situation. melee? done. Swamping things? Done. Ablation? Done. Board presence? done. Deployment shenanigans? Done. Critical killing ability? done. Obsec? Done. And so on.
Same for any list. In my opinion a TAC list is one that allows you to use tactics to do what the list components may not look ideal for, I know that the infinite terrain, matchups ansd dice rolls you can see played out in 40K (one of the things I love about it) do make planning "the perfect Deathstar to counter all deathstars" impossible. So maybe a TAC list isn't that. Maybe the definition of TAC is the problem.
Martel732 wrote: There are a ton of downsides to Angel's Fury. Look! TWC! I just lost. Because I've got 3 full tac squads that I'm relying on to punch things.
Well, you could figure out a way for the 800pts left in your list to help punch things, but that wouldn't produce as nearly a melodramatic and futile scenario.
No, Blood Angels do not have Grav Cannons or Grav Amps. The only Graviton Weapons in the BA codex are Grav Pistols, Grav Guns, and Combi-Gravs.
I'm getting real sick of the snark I'm seeing in this thread. Certain posters here may want to remember rule one, lest they find themselves with a polite reminder from a mod. You know who you are.
That said, even Grav is not a Garunteed kill versus a Riptide. Especially if it has the FnP upgrade.
Why do people keep going back to the "If I can't kill it in one turn of shooting its invincible" mentality?
Guess what, the riptide won't kill the centurions in one shot either-its not even in the realm of "not a garunteed kill", even with magical infinite markerlights. it will cause some damage, but won't remove the squad. or any other noteworthy unit for that matter (unless you hobble up for some reason with a T4 high-value unit and have no defenses what so ever with it, when it's purely your fault for exposing such weakness.)
If anything could kill anything in one turn, the game would be over REALLY quickly. OTK only happens between units who are vastly different in power scale, or with dedicated hard counter. (aka melta vs tank)
I love it how everything that the "nerf the riptide to hell" guys have to say is how BA can't find a good answer. (especially without changing lists from what they play currently. as if not everyone has to change lists as the meta changes.)
As if in the current situation the BA will be viable at a competitive level even if you remove the riptide, or even the entire tau codex from the game.
My Renegades don't really have a great answer in house either. Same for my CSMs. Short of bringing a bunch of allies, which some folks don't want to do for whatever reason (like how I don't want to ally Renegades and CSM because they synergize weirdly from a rules/fluff standpoint.)
Nerfing Riptides won't fix BA, or Renegades, or CSMs, but it will make Tau less broken, and that's all to the good, at the end of the day. Once we have the Riptide in its proper place as an AV13/12/12 walker, we'll move on to other things, like Eldar. Or Eldar. Or Marines.
My Renegades don't really have a great answer in house either. Same for my CSMs. Short of bringing a bunch of allies, which some folks don't want to do for whatever reason (like how I don't want to ally Renegades and CSM because they synergize weirdly from a rules/fluff standpoint.)
Nerfing Riptides won't fix BA, or Renegades, or CSMs, but it will make Tau less broken, and that's all to the good, at the end of the day. Once we have the Riptide in its proper place as an AV13/12/12 walker, we'll move on to other things, like Eldar. Or Eldar. Or Marines.
Exactly this, many armies don't have a great answer, including those listed, plus Orks, or Dark Eldar.
That's the rub I think. You can take Mono Tau, no formations, and absolutely wreck a lot of armies out there built with Mono codex and no formations.
I do like the idea of Making a Riptide similar in fashion to an Imperial Knight. Maybe 13 front, 12 side, 10 rear armor superheavy walker with the Heavy Burst Cannon option and a 5+ invulnerable save with upgrades available to help it. Give it the jump-shoot-jump ability it already has, and give it four hull points base, with the 'feel no pain' upgrade giving it a fifth hull point. That still keeps it difficult to kill with good damage output, gives it hammer of wrath, lets it be dangerous in Melee (Stomps) but does allow it to be a bit less tanky, but not a lot less, as you now need to throw something at least ST:7 at it's front arc to hurt it versus at least hoping for the random wound from boltguns.
BoomWolf wrote: Why do people keep going back to the "If I can't kill it in one turn of shooting its invincible" mentality?
Actually, the goal post set down was 2 turns costing 50% over the points of the riptide, but it has to be the first two turns.
A few things have hit the goal post, melta dominions only slight out of it and grav weapons, but not many things have.
Guess what, the riptide won't kill the centurions in one shot either-its not even in the realm of "not a garunteed kill", even with magical infinite markerlights. it will cause some damage, but won't remove the squad. or any other noteworthy unit for that matter (unless you hobble up for some reason with a T4 high-value unit and have no defenses what so ever with it, when it's purely your fault for exposing such weakness.)
Actually, a centstar is usually "hobbled up" since it's DSing around (the only way it reaches the riptide) and riptides in a wing can fire twice. This is one of the best units to target it, and they can take interceptor to counter as well (though can't fire the blast there).
Even without firing twice, 2 riptides cost less than the star and can cripple it. Cover saves don't help much with marker light support, so the only defense is avoid LoS, which is difficult on such a model, or have good invul saves. Flying also helps.
A large AP 2 blast will hit a decent number of models. The reason IG weapons aren't as good is simply because they don't ignore cover, are easier to remove having obvious counters, are often ap 3 or short ranged, and can't move quickly. The Tau don't suffer from these problems.
If anything could kill anything in one turn, the game would be over REALLY quickly. OTK only happens between units who are vastly different in power scale, or with dedicated hard counter. (aka melta vs tank)
True, it's something you see sometimes in these forums. But not in this thread.
Many of the counters being listed, like Melee and ID, won't stop the riptide until turn 4 with how fast it is and where it's usually found in the army.
4 turns of firing, with the Wing this is 5 turns of shooting, means the Riptide has probably already done it's job. Killing it is nice but most likely no longer important at this point. You need it dead by turn 2.
If it was only a defensive objective holder with mediocre firepower, killing it T4 would be fine.
I don't think the goalpost is unreasonable. There are few units in this game that only have a very small list of units that can reach such a goal post against them (and more often than not it's grav getting them there) and they are universally considered as OP (Centstar, Screamer Star, Wolfstar, WK, Riptide, Wraiths in Decurion)
I love it how everything that the "nerf the riptide to hell" guys have to say is how BA can't find a good answer. (especially without changing lists from what they play currently. as if not everyone has to change lists as the meta changes.)
As if in the current situation the BA will be viable at a competitive level even if you remove the riptide, or even the entire tau codex from the game.
I don't think anyone is saying "nerf the riptide to hell", simply that it's too good for the points. If the blast was AP 3 or 4, or the FnP and Wing formation didn't exist, or if it was a 3+ save, or if it had to nova to get an invul at all...relatively small changes that makes it less lethal or less tough and it would be fine. I play Tau and other armies, I never see a Tau army without a tide.
I mean, it certainly needs to be nerfed. At the LVO, it was in a lot of lists, usually 3 of them, and often in a wing. The only units you see that commonly taken are the broken ones.
Oh look. heres a BR where all 3 riptides are killed turn 2. yeah so invincible
I could show you mathematically how that army doesn't even have good odds to kill 1 riptide in 2 turns - but then I'd have to do a lot of math. Luck does happen but playing poorly has a lot more do do with losing 2 riptides in 2 turns anyways...you have 72" range and interceptor - you shouldn't even be getting shot at.
BA won't need Grav to kill Riptides... they need a 7.5th style update with special rules and updated costing.
When Vanguard Vets get a detachment bonus for DoA and free Jump Packs, formation bonus for charging from DS with snap shots only, 5pt power weapons, etc, Riptides are not going to look so scary.
A lot of you guys are hung up on trying to turn back the game to 7.0 power levels. GW's design team obviously has a direction they're going. The Riptide won't necessarily be broken by the end of the 7.5 style updates -- it's just a painful transition process, and above all for the armies that are getting updated last.
Yoyoyo wrote: BA won't need Grav to kill Riptides... they need a 7.5th style update with special rules and updated costing.
When Vanguard Vets get a detachment bonus for DoA and free Jump Packs, formation bonus for charging from DS with snap shots only, 5pt power weapons, etc, Riptides are not going to look so scary.
A lot of you guys are hung up on trying to turn back the game to 7.0 power levels. GW's design team obviously has a direction they're going. The Riptide won't necessarily be broken by the end of the 7.5 style updates -- it's just a painful transition process, and above all for the armies that are getting updated last.
Outside of riptide wing, riptides have been the same for a long time. They are still essentially the same as their 7.0 level - it's safe to say riptides have always been 7.5 level. They are still among the best units in the game for their points. I would even go as far as to say they are the best unit in the game that isn't a LOW - meaning they can be deployed unlimited and cheaply and now with formation bonuses. Or in other words...marines are always going to struggle with them because they are just too good at killing marine units and they have no real efficient counter - even at 7.5 level.
Xenomancers wrote: they are just too good at killing marine units and they have no real efficient counter - even at 7.5 level.
I was going to say 'grav' but the only grav weapons which are going to reach them are podded tacticals, skyhammer or Centurionstars (or in pods). The former is ineffective, the medium is horrifically fragile, and the latter is expensive.
Is this still going on? I think it's been made pretty much clear that the people who are anti Riptide are not going to be able to convince the people who are pro Riptide that the Riptide needs to be nerfed, especially to the ridiculous standards some of them are calling for. It's also been shown several times that there are pretty decent counters to the Riptide, even if it has FNP (throw math at it all you want I have seen Grav weapons consistently annihilate my Riptides every time).
Also the big thing people are failing to realize, guess what it's not going to be nerfed anytime soon, better to continue to find ways to beat the thing instead of constantly complaining about it and demanding nerfs because it's not going to happen anytime soon. I really don't understand the constant negativity about issues like this, every single new army has their own ridiculous shenanigans (Grav, free transports, super durable, insanely balance book ect.) Really time to stop complaining it's getting quite old.
Ashiraya wrote: Iwas going to say 'grav' but the only grav weapons which are going to reach them are podded tacticals, skyhammer or Centurionstars (or in pods). The former is ineffective, the medium is horrifically fragile, and the latter is expensive.
Don't forget the super cheap troop choices for Mechanicum, for a mere 165pts. You get eighteen 30in range Grav Cannons that can be made twin-linked. Grav is not hard to come by in any Imperial Army.
Tau don't need allies. IoM lists shouldn't, either.
Your personal anecdotes don't negate the math, either. Maybe you just forget to put your toe in cover. I trust math. I don't trust people's anecdotes, Batreps, or L2P arguments.
Tau don't nearly have access to the allies that you do and that is not an argument, demanding that another book cater to what another book lacks, every army is different. I'm actually pretty good about leaving my guys in cover, doesn't change the fact all of this non stop complaining isn't going to solve anything or make the Riptide get nerfed anytime soon.
Xenomancers wrote: Or in other words...marines are always going to struggle with them because they are just too good at killing marine units
That's an argument to make protection more important, because Riptides are resistant to alpha strikes. How about a Devastator team with 1x Grav Cannon? In two rounds of shooting with a Signum:
10(5/6)(35/36)(2/3) = 5.4W
So why not just flat out a Rhino into cover on T1, and then blast away for 2 turns? If he has 4+ cover add an Auspex, if he has FNP add another turn of shooting. Meanwhile assault units should be putting simultaneous pressure on the Tau army. How many points are you prepared to devote towards killing a Rhino?
Maybe the problem is less "Riptides are too tough" and more "I don't have enough protection or depth in my army"? Just throwing ideas out there.
Just because the way the riptide wing formations rules are being quoted keeps bothering me. The special 2 turns firing is the Riptide Hailfire rule, and can only be done of the riptide didn't move at all, fires 2ce (and can fire at different targets), and cannot move in the assault phase, and is a 1ce per game ability.
the way its being quoted makes it sound like i can do that every turn. maybe no one intended that, but it reads to me with that implication.
gmaleron wrote: Tau don't nearly have access to the allies that you do and that is not an argument, demanding that another book cater to what another book lacks, every army is different. I'm actually pretty good about leaving my guys in cover, doesn't change the fact all of this non stop complaining isn't going to solve anything or make the Riptide get nerfed anytime soon.
Tau have extreme amounts of allies available. Just because they can't get in your transports or join your squads doesn't make that less true.
BA have just as much access to grav cannons as tau have access to wraithknights and scatbikes, or orks to a riptide wing and drone net. But really at some point you're gonna look at that ork list and ask why the orks aren't just more tau, similar to the BA list where you'll eventually ask why the BA are even there when you could just take more white scars.
