Grand.Master.Raziel wrote: So, maybe Repentias could have an act of faith that allowed them to assault out of a Sisters of Battle transport. That'd seem to fix their issues.
It'd fix ONE of their issues.
The other issues being overwatch is super deadly to them, and that even a 5 man squad of marines kill 3 before they get to swing kf they don't get their fnp. Oh and if the transport blows up you'll usually lose like 6-7 out of a ten girl squad.
Grand.Master.Raziel wrote: So, maybe Repentias could have an act of faith that allowed them to assault out of a Sisters of Battle transport. That'd seem to fix their issues.
Maybe Sisters of Battle will have a codex assault vehicle?
Grand.Master.Raziel wrote: So, maybe Repentias could have an act of faith that allowed them to assault out of a Sisters of Battle transport. That'd seem to fix their issues.
Maybe Sisters of Battle will have a codex assault vehicle?
Why would they want that? Their best assault unit is a Jump Infantry character who can't board transports, and the second-best assault unit is a Walker that can't board transports and would still suck even if it could. Having an Assault Vehicle wouldn't convince me to bring Warbands (only the DCAs are worth anything in a fight and even they're not worth taking because they don't get grenades) or Repentia (die like flies every turn, which would be fine if they weren't so overcosted).
Not sure if anyone has said it but... I think it would be frigging awesome if they gave the nuns not just bikes, but Jet bikes. I mean, why not? Space marines have not used them for about 9,000 years or so.
OIIIIIIO wrote: Not sure if anyone has said it but... I think it would be frigging awesome if they gave the nuns not just bikes, but Jet bikes. I mean, why not? Space marines have not used them for about 9,000 years or so.
Umm... have you seen the heresy era jet bikes? They look a bit... phallic. Not the direction you'd want to with your space nuns if you were trying to be a kinder, gentler games company.
A Meltagun that ignores cover and can't miss? Sounds balanced to me! Put a chainfist attachment on it as well, one that strikes at Initiative and grants an extra attack in close combat.
I was thinking more of a meltagun with an attached Flamethrower, you can choose which one to fire per turn. But an Ignores Cover Melta would be really fun
One Fan-dex I've seen has "Trinity Weapons"... Imagine Armor Piercing Melta Boltgun rounds.
Strength 5, AP 2 with Armorbane, Gets Hot!, and basically the Space Wolf Frost effect. Comes in Pistols, Guns, and Rifles... each with their own range band.
Anpu-adom wrote: One Fan-dex I've seen has "Trinity Weapons"... Imagine Armor Piercing Melta Boltgun rounds.
Strength 5, AP 2 with Armorbane, Gets Hot!, and basically the Space Wolf Frost effect. Comes in Pistols, Guns, and Rifles... each with their own range band.
Not a bad idea, might need a couple of numbers shifted around but cool. I personally like the idea of a melta torpedo. 36-48 inch range S6 ap 4 assault 3 if fired at half range or less heavy 2 S8 ap1 armourbane if further than half range or some similar effect. sort of like a complicated conversion beamer.
Anpu-adom wrote: One Fan-dex I've seen has "Trinity Weapons"... Imagine Armor Piercing Melta Boltgun rounds.
Strength 5, AP 2 with Armorbane, Gets Hot!, and basically the Space Wolf Frost effect. Comes in Pistols, Guns, and Rifles... each with their own range band.
If Celestians had access to something like that it'd give them a purpose again. Plus it's thematic; Sisters are a mechanised shooting army, they should be shooting Orks and Tyranids, not running out of Assault Vehicles to try and punch them.
Pretty much all the Sororitas wargear is modified Astartes Wargear. I don't see it being much of a stretch for them to get some of the new Deathwatch Toys that fit their theme.
Combination Heavy Bolter/Heavy Flamer
Specialty ammo that involves fire
Corvus Blackstar Flyer
Pretty much every other, non Dark Angels Flyer, gets a sales boost by being usable by most of the Space Marines Chapters, where the Corvus sales are tied exclusively to Deathwatch.
The Sororitas could use a flyer, and a transport that isn't a Rhino variant. Seems like a win/win situation. Sororitas get a decent vehicle, and GW doesn't have to invest in designing an entirely new model.
master of ordinance wrote: How about a Heavy Bolter with Heavy Flamer and MultiMelta attachments?
That is Assault?
And can fire all three weapon modes at the same time?
How about we make that an X-in-1 kit with the Pengine:
- may replace each DNCCW flamer with a CCWHB, CCWHF, or CCWMM;
- may add a shoulder mounted HB or MM
master of ordinance wrote: In all honesty, with the power creep being more of a power sprint these days I dont really think it is that bad of an idea.
See, if they want to address power creep, they should do it the way they did for the Genestealer Cults. That book is crazy; you can build full, well-rounded army lists at 750pts using the Cult Insurrection Detachment that take full advantage of the army's special rules while still being fluffy and thematic. There's nothing unbeatable or cheesy abut the armies, they just work properly and have reasonable unit costings.
If I'm honest my number one vainest hope for the next Sisters Codex is that it's written by the same people who did Codex: GSC.
BBAP wrote: If I'm honest my number one vainest hope for the next Sisters Codex is that it's written by the same people who did Codex: GSC.
If that's the case, you should ship a couple thousand points of a pre-assembled, pre-painted Sisters army to the author, so that he'll be invested in playing it. Because that's how GW works. Each Codex that gets printed is someone's "pet" projects for the army that they own and play. If nobody in the studio owns and plays the army on a regular basis, then they just let it slide.
BBAP wrote: If I'm honest my number one vainest hope for the next Sisters Codex is that it's written by the same people who did Codex: GSC.
If that's the case, you should ship a couple thousand points of a pre-assembled, pre-painted Sisters army to the author, so that he'll be invested in playing it. Because that's how GW works. Each Codex that gets printed is someone's "pet" projects for the army that they own and play. If nobody in the studio owns and plays the army on a regular basis, then they just let it slide.
I'm sure we could get a Kickstarter going for this
BBAP wrote: If I'm honest my number one vainest hope for the next Sisters Codex is that it's written by the same people who did Codex: GSC.
If that's the case, you should ship a couple thousand points of a pre-assembled, pre-painted Sisters army to the author, so that he'll be invested in playing it. Because that's how GW works. Each Codex that gets printed is someone's "pet" projects for the army that they own and play. If nobody in the studio owns and plays the army on a regular basis, then they just let it slide.
...who/how was playing genestealer cult at GW before the new codex?
I'll go on record that ALL I care about in a new Sisters codex is that all the 3rd Ed. units get represented, and make the transition to plastic, so I can get a Sisters army to use in Classichammer. Past that, nothing GW does ruleswise right now can get a rise out of me.
It would be nice to have the Palatine back, but beyond that all the Sisters units from 3rd Edition are still there. The Inquisition units have been thoroughly molested beyond hope of salvation by Ward and Cruddace, so I don't mind if they don't return.
Because they're not in the Codex. That's my excuse. I don't even know how Fortifications work, or where to find rules for them. there's that many books in the Black Library I wouldn't know where to start.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Why does nobody use the fortification networks for sisters? You can pile up huge amounts of anti-aircraft and long range heavy weapons on those...
Also because they're largely over-priced and very easy to destroy. And as much as people have talked about having anti-air there's no way any flyer GW puts out for the Sisters would be any good. Pretty much the only usable flyer in the game is the heldrake, not counting flying monstrous creatures. A good AA platform that isn't useless against ground targets or a flyer that's actually priced appropriately would be nice but ultimately not super necessary.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Why does nobody use the fortification networks for sisters? You can pile up huge amounts of anti-aircraft and long range heavy weapons on those...
Because I play Classichammer, and there are no rules for them in there.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: Why does nobody use the fortification networks for sisters? You can pile up huge amounts of anti-aircraft and long range heavy weapons on those...
Most people just don't use fortifications period. Either because they are not familiar with them, or the formations they are running don't include options for including fortifications.
Presonally, I love fortifications, but I only ever run them with Orks. Ork boyz love Bunkers with Escape hatches.
I would like a tweak to the faith mechanic. Largely it's yawn worthy right now with the only faith worth using being the one's for the seraphim and Dominions. I'd like to see some better acts of faith that aren't just USR. Maybe something like a miracle mechanic worked in- when an act of faith is passed then a miracle counter us gained and you have a selection of miracles that cost x amount if miracle counters to happen. Miracles could be things like armour sv being invo sv for a turn or other suitably sweet things like that.
Oh! Take a page from soulstorm where the Cannoness had an ability for the souls of martyrd sisters to return briefly to fight. Make that a miracle and then BAM! You've got a new mechanic, a new rule and fluff and a new unit and model!
If we're culling stuff from Dawn of War I want an Immolator that can fire its Heavy Flamer templates in a 360 degree arc around itself. Also a Saint that makes everyone invincible within a certain radius. And Gorgutz or Bludflagg as "Battle Brother" Allies.
I think they should do more with the (formerly) living saints. Some of the only people to actually have full audience with the Emperor since he was interred in the golden throne, and all but 1 have died in gruesome ways. I think either giving them some sort of impact via AoF or bringing Arabella, who I believe is the only one left, back and giving her Calgar/Abaddon/CM SmashFether level combat stats would be awesome.
Praxedes of Ophelia! I think she's still kicking around in the 40k-verse somewhere. Give her Eternal Warrior and a Storm Shield and let her smite the heretics once more.
I suppose I could see that working similar but fluff wise more as a manifestation of concentrated faith.
Mechanically ID see it as a cool bonus unit that appears for a turn and then vanishes the next.
Saint Arabella the Liberator WS7 BS7 S4 T4 W4 A7 I7 LD10 2+3++
Fearless Fear H&R EW Jump Infantry Rage CounterAttack Grenades
Last of the Six: Saint Arabella channels the pain of the loss of her sisters into devastating fury, Saint Arabella's melee attacks(Don't know how to word it but basically her Melee hits and wounds go through like normal but for every successful to wound roll she fires out a heavy flamer that can be placed over friendly models but doesn't wound them)
Beacon of Faith:12in AOF leadership bubble.
AOF Faith Unflinching: This act of faith may only be used at the start your opponents shooting or assault phase, for the duration of the phase Saint Arabella ignores all saving throw modifiers(Including Armor Penetration, 6 on the D Table, Xenophase blade) and may reroll her saving throws.This AoF may only be used a single time regardless of any modifiers.
Weapon: Blade of Mourning, S+3 AP2 Mastercrafted Two-Handed, Also a S6 AP4 Heavy Flamer.
Some way to actually resist Psykers would be nice. Across-the-board Admantium Will kind of sucks when you have no Warp Charges to use actually denying the witch.
Maybe we could some kind of Psuedo-warp charge that can only be used for DtW?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ERJAK wrote: Saint Arabella the Liberator WS7 BS7 S4 T4 W4 A7 I7 LD10 2+3++
Fearless Fear H&R EW Jump Infantry Rage CounterAttack Grenades
Last of the Six: Saint Arabella channels the pain of the loss of her sisters into devastating fury, Saint Arabella's melee attacks(Don't know how to word it but basically her Melee hits and wounds go through like normal but for every successful to wound roll she fires out a heavy flamer that can be placed over friendly models but doesn't wound them)
Beacon of Faith:12in AOF leadership bubble.
AOF Faith Unflinching: This act of faith may only be used at the start your opponents shooting or assault phase, for the duration of the phase Saint Arabella ignores all saving throw modifiers(Including Armor Penetration, 6 on the D Table, Xenophase blade) and may reroll her saving throws.This AoF may only be used a single time regardless of any modifiers.
Weapon: Blade of Mourning, S+3 AP2 Mastercrafted Two-Handed, Also a S6 AP4 Heavy Flamer.
210pts
Hahaha, that is insanely overpowered. Incredibly, insanely, ridiculously overpowered.
Let's just go down the list:
For 75 more points than Celestine, she has everything Celestine gets except her act of faith. (Then again, the AoF you list here is miles better than Celestines, making her effectively indestructible for a turn.) Her HF is +1 S, she is +1 T, +3 S, AP2, +1 wound, +2 A, and she gets Fear, Fearless, Rage, and Counter-Attack. And AP2. Oh, and a crapton of free template hits in Melee. She could bring some Primarchs to a draw. This is NOT a 210pt character.
Edit: Oh, and EW. Of course.
Waaaghpower wrote: Some way to actually resist Psykers would be nice. Across-the-board Admantium Will kind of sucks when you have no Warp Charges to use actually denying the witch.
Maybe we could some kind of Psuedo-warp charge that can only be used for DtW?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ERJAK wrote: Saint Arabella the Liberator WS7 BS7 S4 T4 W4 A7 I7 LD10 2+3++
Fearless Fear H&R EW Jump Infantry Rage CounterAttack Grenades
Last of the Six: Saint Arabella channels the pain of the loss of her sisters into devastating fury, Saint Arabella's melee attacks(Don't know how to word it but basically her Melee hits and wounds go through like normal but for every successful to wound roll she fires out a heavy flamer that can be placed over friendly models but doesn't wound them)
Beacon of Faith:12in AOF leadership bubble.
AOF Faith Unflinching: This act of faith may only be used at the start your opponents shooting or assault phase, for the duration of the phase Saint Arabella ignores all saving throw modifiers(Including Armor Penetration, 6 on the D Table, Xenophase blade) and may reroll her saving throws.This AoF may only be used a single time regardless of any modifiers.
Weapon: Blade of Mourning, S+3 AP2 Mastercrafted Two-Handed, Also a S6 AP4 Heavy Flamer.
210pts
Hahaha, that is insanely overpowered. Incredibly, insanely, ridiculously overpowered.
Let's just go down the list:
For 75 more points than Celestine, she has everything Celestine gets except her act of faith. (Then again, the AoF you list here is miles better than Celestines, making her effectively indestructible for a turn.) Her HF is +1 S, she is +1 T, +3 S, AP2, +1 wound, +2 A, and she gets Fear, Fearless, Rage, and Counter-Attack. And AP2. Oh, and a crapton of free template hits in Melee. She could bring some Primarchs to a draw. This is NOT a 210pt character.
Edit: Oh, and EW. Of course.
T4, 4W, and no save interactions beyond the Act? Powerful yes, 'insanely overpowered' maybe. (Also she'd probably tie Angron (the worst Primarch in one-on-one duels), but most Primarchs would be able to batter past her four wounds a lot faster than she could batter past their 6-7.)
(Apologies to Erjak but the free flamer shots are pretty dumb; one stomp attack at -1 on the stomp table is a much, much shorter and less broken implementation of the concept. Drop attacks to 5, the sword to S+1 or S+2, either make the saves 2+/4++ and make the Act '2+ invul for a turn' or write a different Act, and pump the price to 250-275ish and she might work)
Waaaghpower wrote: Some way to actually resist Psykers would be nice. Across-the-board Admantium Will kind of sucks when you have no Warp Charges to use actually denying the witch.
Maybe we could some kind of Psuedo-warp charge that can only be used for DtW?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ERJAK wrote: Saint Arabella the Liberator WS7 BS7 S4 T4 W4 A7 I7 LD10 2+3++
Fearless Fear H&R EW Jump Infantry Rage CounterAttack Grenades
Last of the Six: Saint Arabella channels the pain of the loss of her sisters into devastating fury, Saint Arabella's melee attacks(Don't know how to word it but basically her Melee hits and wounds go through like normal but for every successful to wound roll she fires out a heavy flamer that can be placed over friendly models but doesn't wound them)
Beacon of Faith:12in AOF leadership bubble.
AOF Faith Unflinching: This act of faith may only be used at the start your opponents shooting or assault phase, for the duration of the phase Saint Arabella ignores all saving throw modifiers(Including Armor Penetration, 6 on the D Table, Xenophase blade) and may reroll her saving throws.This AoF may only be used a single time regardless of any modifiers.
Weapon: Blade of Mourning, S+3 AP2 Mastercrafted Two-Handed, Also a S6 AP4 Heavy Flamer.
210pts
Hahaha, that is insanely overpowered. Incredibly, insanely, ridiculously overpowered.
Let's just go down the list:
For 75 more points than Celestine, she has everything Celestine gets except her act of faith. (Then again, the AoF you list here is miles better than Celestines, making her effectively indestructible for a turn.) Her HF is +1 S, she is +1 T, +3 S, AP2, +1 wound, +2 A, and she gets Fear, Fearless, Rage, and Counter-Attack. And AP2. Oh, and a crapton of free template hits in Melee. She could bring some Primarchs to a draw. This is NOT a 210pt character.
Edit: Oh, and EW. Of course.
T4, 4W, and no save interactions beyond the Act? Powerful yes, 'insanely overpowered' maybe. (Also she'd probably tie Angron (the worst Primarch in one-on-one duels), but most Primarchs would be able to batter past her four wounds a lot faster than she could batter past their 6-7.)
(Apologies to Erjak but the free flamer shots are pretty dumb; one stomp attack at -1 on the stomp table is a much, much shorter and less broken implementation of the concept. Drop attacks to 5, the sword to S+1 or S+2, either make the saves 2+/4++ and make the Act '2+ invul for a turn' or write a different Act, and pump the price to 250-275ish and she might work)
I didn't say tie, I said bring them to a draw. As in, they'd both stand around doing nothing except hitting each other until the game ended. (You missed the other thing with the Act: No save interactions INCLUDING AP, and you get rerolls. You can throw her up against a Reaver Battle Titan with a D-fist, or get her locked with any of the most powerful Deathstars in the game, and she wouldn't take a scratch. 2++ rerollable, and the few sources that might get past that are also ignored.)
It's worth mentioning that T4, 4W, EW 2+3++ is what's given to almost all of the 'Unkillable hero' level models in the game. You can get T5 if you take a build-a-bear Chapter Master, but that's about it. Logan Grimnar? T4, 4W, Ew, 2+4++. (He also doesn't deal nearly this much damage in combat, moves much more slowly, and costs more points.) Marneus Calgar? 2+4++, Ew, 2+4++ (He can at least compete, damage-wise, but is still slow, ungainly, and costs more.)
Heck, just for fun, let's compare a build-a-bear Chapter Master. We can get a very similar build to our saint here by giving him the Armor Indominus (Not as good as 2++ Rerollable Unmodifiable, but still a 2++,) the Burning Blade (It lacks the Flamer and can hurt the weilder, but offers the same stats in Melee) and the Shield Eternal, with a Jump Pack. That costs 310 points, and while he does get an Orbital Bombardment (Which is nice,) he has zero shooting, no free extra damage in Melee, lower WS, BS, A, and I, and no version of Chapter Tactics is ever going to be as good as Fearless, Fear, Rage, and Counter Attack.
9 Ws7 S7 I7 AP2 attacks on the charge will kill anything except the most powerful tanks in the game. (Or literal tanks with AV14.) Especially since she rerolls a to-hit roll every turn, just for fun. She'll kill entire 30-boy Ork Hordes in a single round. If this character existed, people would take detachments of Sisters of Battle just to take her as a LoW. (Even if the rest of your SoB army sat on the side of the board and collected dust, she'd be worth the 200-ish point model tax you're paying to get her.)
The only thing that might balance her is if she was a Monstrous Creature. At least then she couldn't also get access to a retinue to ensure even massed fire couldn't kill her. (Even then, several other things would need toned down, but it'd be a good start.)
That was the point, it was supposed to be a fun 'ha ha wouldn't it be funny if sisters got a crazy broken character!' thing.thank you for your attempts to kill it you boring people you.
The base state I checked (five Attacks with AP2, a Strength of at least 6, and WS higher than 3) takes around six combat rounds to drop her (most of them are at least a bit better than that). You have to get into melee in the first half of the game but if you do they'd probably be able to finish before the game ended. Last I checked the current Codex the Act is a 1/game thing, she doesn't get it every turn.
I don't know if you read past the first line of my post but you may note that I recommended neutering or dropping the flamer rules, backing off on the melee beatstickery and the save, and increasing the cost significantly, I'm not disagreeing with you on any particular here.
On the subject of MCs/model size I think S/T4 MCs (along the lines of 3e Daemonhosts) wouldn't be a bad way to represent Living Saints, but we need GW to remember they're basically human and not try and give us a foot-tall model covered in parchment tentacles.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ERJAK wrote: That was the point, it was supposed to be a fun 'ha ha wouldn't it be funny if sisters got a crazy broken character!' thing.thank you for your attempts to kill it you boring people you.
I still had fun with it.
Hey, I thought "one Stomp attack at -1 on the table" was an interesting idea that came out of trying to doctor it.
AnomanderRake wrote: The base state I checked (five Attacks with AP2, a Strength of at least 6, and WS higher than 3) takes around six combat rounds to drop her (most of them are at least a bit better than that). You have to get into melee in the first half of the game but if you do they'd probably be able to finish before the game ended. Last I checked the current Codex the Act is a 1/game thing, she doesn't get it every turn.
I don't know if you read past the first line of my post but you may note that I recommended neutering or dropping the flamer rules, backing off on the melee beatstickery and the save, and increasing the cost significantly, I'm not disagreeing with you on any particular here.
On the subject of MCs/model size I think S/T4 MCs (along the lines of 3e Daemonhosts) wouldn't be a bad way to represent Living Saints, but we need GW to remember they're basically human and not try and give us a foot-tall model covered in parchment tentacles.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ERJAK wrote: That was the point, it was supposed to be a fun 'ha ha wouldn't it be funny if sisters got a crazy broken character!' thing.thank you for your attempts to kill it you boring people you.
I still had fun with it.
Hey, I thought "one Stomp attack at -1 on the table" was an interesting idea that came out of trying to doctor it.
That would be a stupid thing to have. The only reason anyone cares about the stomp table at all is because of the six. OOOH I get a 1/3 chance to do nothing and a 2/3 chance to do effectively nothing. Honestly I'd want the model to cost LESS points if it got that. If you want to make a serious character in line with the sisters codex then fine:
BS5 WS4 S3 T3 W3 A3 I4 LD 10 2+4++ Warlord Trait: Executioner of Heretics. Fearless EW. AoF gives her Stealth. Wargear: Grenades Bolt pistol Powersword. Named Character so no upgrades..
ERJAK wrote: That was the point, it was supposed to be a fun 'ha ha wouldn't it be funny if sisters got a crazy broken character!' thing.thank you for your attempts to kill it you boring people you.
I still had fun with it.
In that case, this is one of those instances where the parody was so close to reality that it's hard to tell. I have seen a lot of oblivious people try and pass off house rules as broken as yours and call them 'Legit' and 'Balanced'. If you're going to make a crazy broken character, you kind of have to be obvious about it or it'll be mistaken for the real deal.
(Also, if you want a serious living saint in line with the Sisters codex, well... They kind of already have one. Celestine. She's pretty good.)
AnomanderRake wrote: The base state I checked (five Attacks with AP2, a Strength of at least 6, and WS higher than 3) takes around six combat rounds to drop her (most of them are at least a bit better than that). You have to get into melee in the first half of the game but if you do they'd probably be able to finish before the game ended. Last I checked the current Codex the Act is a 1/game thing, she doesn't get it every turn.
I don't know if you read past the first line of my post but you may note that I recommended neutering or dropping the flamer rules, backing off on the melee beatstickery and the save, and increasing the cost significantly, I'm not disagreeing with you on any particular here.
On the subject of MCs/model size I think S/T4 MCs (along the lines of 3e Daemonhosts) wouldn't be a bad way to represent Living Saints, but we need GW to remember they're basically human and not try and give us a foot-tall model covered in parchment tentacles.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ERJAK wrote: That was the point, it was supposed to be a fun 'ha ha wouldn't it be funny if sisters got a crazy broken character!' thing.thank you for your attempts to kill it you boring people you.
I still had fun with it.
Hey, I thought "one Stomp attack at -1 on the table" was an interesting idea that came out of trying to doctor it.
That would be a stupid thing to have. The only reason anyone cares about the stomp table at all is because of the six. OOOH I get a 1/3 chance to do nothing and a 2/3 chance to do effectively nothing. Honestly I'd want the model to cost LESS points if it got that. If you want to make a serious character in line with the sisters codex then fine:
BS5 WS4 S3 T3 W3 A3 I4 LD 10 2+4++ Warlord Trait: Executioner of Heretics. Fearless EW. AoF gives her Stealth. Wargear: Grenades Bolt pistol Powersword. Named Character so no upgrades..
185pts.
There, look upon your creation and weep.
...I'm sorry, have I fallen asleep through another two editions of power creep? Free S6/AP4 hits/free penetrating hits on vehicles are now terrible because they aren't 'RFP everything under a small blast template'? Why'd you give the model the free flamer shots if S6/AP4 is "effectively nothing"?
1. I know about Saint Celestine, I love her dearly but she dies to a wet fart and her only retinue option in the codex is okay but ultimately not worth losing out on a dominion slot.
2. Because it fails on a 1 or a 2. Why not just give her 1 additional S6 ap 4 hit and call it a day, the most hits you'll ever get are 3-4 anyway and I'd rather have 1 guaranteed hit than to have to increase a character's point cost to fail 1/3rd of the time.
The idea behind the templates was totally just thematic, 'oh she swings her sword so hard that she tears a massive crater in a line along the ground!' It's obviously not a mechanic you can give a character without making it like S2 but it was a fun image.
ERJAK wrote: 1. I know about Saint Celestine, I love her dearly but she dies to a wet fart and her only retinue option in the codex is okay but ultimately not worth losing out on a dominion slot.
2. Because it fails on a 1 or a 2. Why not just give her 1 additional S6 ap 4 hit and call it a day, the most hits you'll ever get are 3-4 anyway and I'd rather have 1 guaranteed hit than to have to increase a character's point cost to fail 1/3rd of the time.
The idea behind the templates was totally just thematic, 'oh she swings her sword so hard that she tears a massive crater in a line along the ground!' It's obviously not a mechanic you can give a character without making it like S2 but it was a fun image.
...You know all melee attacks fail on a 1 or a 2, right?
...You know all melee attacks fail on a 1 or a 2, right?
Kharn.
Moving on, sisters of silence being rolled into the codex would be really awesome fore the army but I don't think the people who really enjoy the fluff would like it as much. I don't know much about SoS fluffwise but I think that'd be a hard sell.
The key observation is that female models are a hard sell no matter what. GW didn't even have enough faith in their new SoS to make boxes of the alternate gear / units that have been shown to date, whereas Custodes are getting a special Dread and special vehicles from FW. If SoS dont' sell, what does that say about a SoB relaunch?
SoS seem pretty specialist to me. I don't see them having a codex worth of variants, dreadnaughts, special vehicles, etc.
I would like to see them in the Adepta Sororitas codex, as an elite choice. Sororitas may have been a 30K thing, but I could see them training Pariahs in the Adepta Sororitas in the 40K timeline.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The key observation is that female models are a hard sell no matter what. GW didn't even have enough faith in their new SoS to make boxes of the alternate gear / units that have been shown to date, whereas Custodes are getting a special Dread and special vehicles from FW. If SoS dont' sell, what does that say about a SoB relaunch?
To make a counter-point, SoS have radically outsold custodes for 40k players because Custodes are useful but not amazing, whereas SoS are insanely strong, almost mandatory in imperial lists.
Secondly, GW isn't making either custodes or SoS and they really aren't a big part of 40k. FW was always going to make a custodes army for 30k. Comments from FW have suggested that they weren't sure about SoS and wanted to see how the prospero ones did before they committed to the full army. Since the sisters have been very well recieved, they said they planned to offer a full 30k force(a small one but still).
Finally, is it hard to sell female miniatures? From what I understand Lilith, Denegrah, Sorcha, The female infinity models, the female malifaux models, and the female guildball models have all sold quite well.
To make a counter-point, SoS have radically outsold custodes for 40k players because Custodes are useful but not amazing, whereas SoS are insanely strong, almost mandatory in imperial lists.
Secondly, GW isn't making either custodes or SoS and they really aren't a big part of 40k. FW was always going to make a custodes army for 30k. Comments from FW have suggested that they weren't sure about SoS and wanted to see how the prospero ones did before they committed to the full army. Since the sisters have been very well recieved, they said they planned to offer a full 30k force(a small one but still).
Finally, is it hard to sell female miniatures? From what I understand Lilith, Denegrah, Sorcha, The female infinity models, the female malifaux models, and the female guildball models have all sold quite well.
The most impressive thing about SoS for me has been just how insanely useful they are. Even paired up with SoB. In my local meta, I've been forced to run sisters in rhinos just to get them across the board alive. With SoS I can literally take a blob of them and they live for 3-4 turns just marching and shooting. People are actually SCARED of the sisters just due to one unit of 10 girls
ERJAK wrote: ...Finally, is it hard to sell female miniatures? From what I understand Lilith, Denegrah, Sorcha, The female infinity models, the female malifaux models, and the female guildball models have all sold quite well.
It doesn't hurt that Deneghra was two of the three strongest warcasters in MkII (the third was Haley, who hasn't been a slouch selling models herself).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
adamsouza wrote: SoS seem pretty specialist to me. I don't see them having a codex worth of variants, dreadnaughts, special vehicles, etc.
I would like to see them in the Adepta Sororitas codex, as an elite choice. Sororitas may have been a 30K thing, but I could see them training Pariahs in the Adepta Sororitas in the 40K timeline.
They should make variants, dreadnaughts, special vehicles, et cetera. The models are fantastic.
(In the 40k timeline the Sisters of Silence fly the Black Ships around collecting psykers to bring back to Terra and train up/feed to the Emperor; they're definitely still around, even if we haven't seen them on the battlefield. If they were going to be anywhere an Ordo Hereticus/Battle Sisters setting is definitely the place to put them.)
ERJAK wrote: ...Finally, is it hard to sell female miniatures? From what I understand Lilith, Denegrah, Sorcha, The female infinity models, the female malifaux models, and the female guildball models have all sold quite well.
It doesn't hurt that Deneghra was two of the three strongest warcasters in MkII (the third was Haley, who hasn't been a slouch selling models herself).
This sort of reinforces the point, rules trump gender, always.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The key observation is that female models are a hard sell no matter what.
It's an even harder sell when you're not producing them.
As other people have pointed out, female models aren't necessarily harder to shift than male ones as long as the rules back them up - the old female Shadowseer was a must-have for anyone who wanted to run Harlequins, which a fair few Eldar players did, but the new male one is unlikely to sell quite as well because it's part of a trash supplement and including one as an Ally comes with a ridiculous tax.
Sisters aren't selling right now for similar reasons. The Codex has been Crud-Warded and is therefore garbage, which deters new players from picking up the army, while most people who play Sisters already have a full army and are unlikely to buy any more models unless they produce some variants. I know I'm not going to buy the same "Sister with Meltagun" another four or six times to bring my army up to 1850pts.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The key observation is that female models are a hard sell no matter what.
It's an even harder sell when you're not producing them.
As other people have pointed out, female models aren't necessarily harder to shift than male ones as long as the rules back them up - the old female Shadowseer was a must-have for anyone who wanted to run Harlequins, which a fair few Eldar players did, but the new male one is unlikely to sell quite as well because it's part of a trash supplement and including one as an Ally comes with a ridiculous tax.
Sisters aren't selling right now for similar reasons. The Codex has been Crud-Warded and is therefore garbage, which deters new players from picking up the army, while most people who play Sisters already have a full army and are unlikely to buy any more models unless they produce some variants. I know I'm not going to buy the same "Sister with Meltagun" another four or six times to bring my army up to 1850pts.
Compound that with the fact that sisters models are priced horrifically and have a terrible number of poses/options available at retail, and are direct only so no discounts. Most Sisters models are priced like character clampacks, a basic troops squad with 1 useful weapon option(meltagun) is 2x the price of a tac marine box, a 10 girl squad of seraphim is 140$, which again is close to double the space marine equivalent. Only the new Genestealer 5man boxes are close to that bad and at least those models are awesome with TONS of bits and you can get 15-25% off from most FLGS or online retailers.
dan2026 wrote: TRAITOR LEGIONS 'Nine is the magic number this month, as within this 136-page softback supplement to Codex Space Marines are army special rules, exclusive Detachments, Warlord Traits, Tactical Objectives and Chaos Artefacts for each of the Traitor Legions - the nine legions who followed their Primarchs into treachery and heresy as they turned from the Emperor's light. (avail 10 Dec)
IMPERIAL AGENTS Loyal sons and daughters of the Imperium take heart, as whilst the Ruinous Powers may seek to be in ascendance as the year wanes, the God-Emperor's most righteous agents stalk the stars ready to enact his will.
Codex: Imperial Agents contains nine subfactions of the Imperial war-machine, from agents of the Inquisition to Wyrdvane Psykers of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica to reinforce your armies of the Imperium. After all, Deathwatch Kill Teams and Imperial Assassins are just as likely to be found working alongside regiments of the Astra MIlitarum or Space Marine strike forces as they are working by themselves, giving the Armies of the Imperium increased tactical choice and scope to conquer any foe.
Within this volume you'll find background and rules for using nine smaller factions alongside your existing armies of the Imperium, from the Grey Knight Terminator squads to the BATTLE SISTERS OF THE ADEPTA SORORITAS.
Grey Knights
Sisters of Battle
Custodes
Sisters of Silence
Inquisition
Assasins
Deathwatch
Astra Telepathica
Astra Militarum
Space Marines...
Either this book is huge (250 plus pages) because it is also background AND rules, or you get only a very select few units.
If you only get a very select few units from each, then is this the opening salvo of 8th Edition 40k? Has GW realized that Battle Brothers and combining of squad and IC rules from different books is causing the problem? Is this book the patch that will allow the flavor without the problems of full-on allies?
In either case, I don't think that this is the full Sisters redo that we are hoping for. :-(
Mr Morden wrote: MPERIAL AGENTS Loyal sons and daughters of the Imperium take heart, as whilst the Ruinous Powers may seek to be in ascendance as the year wanes, the God-Emperor's most righteous agents stalk the stars ready to enact his will.
Codex: Imperial Agents contains nine subfactions of the Imperial war-machine, from agents of the Inquisition to Wyrdvane Psykers of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica to reinforce your armies of the Imperium. After all, Deathwatch Kill Teams and Imperial Assassins are just as likely to be found working alongside regiments of the Astra MIlitarum or Space Marine strike forces as they are working by themselves, giving the Armies of the Imperium increased tactical choice and scope to conquer any foe.
Within this volume you'll find background and rules for using nine smaller factions alongside your existing armies of the Imperium, from the Grey Knight Terminator squads to the BATTLE SISTERS OF THE ADEPTA SORORITAS.
Well that's... something. Glad I've still got most of my old DH/WH armies left.`
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anpu-adom wrote: Either this book is huge (250 plus pages) because it is also background AND rules, or you get only a very select few units.
It doesn't look like the former, but none of these armies currenlty have huge numbers of units anyway (Sisters have 9), so it shouldn't be difficult to fit a few more in here and there.
But yeah. It's not going to be an overhaul, I don't think.
In either case, I don't think that this is the full Sisters redo that we are hoping for. :-(
If this isn't just a rule that allows you to combine all those different armies in the same list without getting brow beat by the troop tax. Maybe the Sisters will keep the units they have currently with a small step towards fixing the couple of lackluster units in the Dex?
If on the other hand this means they don't bother to bring AoF up on par with other 7ed rules. Or that I won't be getting to buy SoB themed tactical cards. And If they just copy paste combi drop the SoB just so the Sisters rules will finally be printed "on paper". I will be grumpy.
If all of you "I would SoB so hard if they were just plastic with a paper dex!!!" are responsible for such a travesty of a mockery of a sham. I will be grumpy. And I will waste no time in annoyingly reminding you of what comes of hoping.
All the while praying that such a transgression against the Emperor really is the beginning of 40k End Times on the road to an Age of Sigmar galaxy wide collapse where only the Tau survive.
As predicted, Sisters are going to get screwed again, no new models, copy-pasted rules with fewer units, and absolutely zero effort from GW.
*sigh* Yeah, let's just ignore the fact that this is scheduled for a December release while the reliable rumormongers pegged the Sisters re-release for Jan-Feb.
As predicted, Sisters are going to get screwed again, no new models, copy-pasted rules with fewer units, and absolutely zero effort from GW.
Sadly highly likely
A formation or two would be something I guess. See what happens as just ordered some Grishnark War Maidens but do want some GW ones given the recent models for other ranges.
As predicted, Sisters are going to get screwed again, no new models, copy-pasted rules with fewer units, and absolutely zero effort from GW.
*sigh* Yeah, let's just ignore the fact that this is scheduled for a December release while the reliable rumormongers pegged the Sisters re-release for Jan-Feb.
Not to mention the way it's worded, while really terrible, does imply it's saying Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle are the armies of the Imperium the Imperial Agents would be allied with. I'm not sure why people keep thinking this book is going to include strange things like astra militarium and such...
I am sorry, the wording makes it clear that they would be the allies added to the main force. Because last time I checked Grey Knight Terminator Squads is no the name of a faction…
Grey Knights ARE a faction. It's not saying those specific units are being added to the book. It would be extremely stupid to try and say "Grey Knight Terminators" are a SUB-FACTION. The book is all about sub-factions. It mentions that.
By your logic the book is going to include the terminators of Grey Knights and the standard Battle Sister Squad of Sisters of battle... That makes literally no sense.
Well, I might be wrong, but the way I am reading it, the book will indeed allow you to include a single unit of Grey Knights terminators in your army, without any other Grey Knights, like in Old Times™ before Grey Knight got Codex: Daemonhunter. Just like I expect the only forces from the Adeptus Astra Telepathica to be available will be the Wyrdwane Psykers unit.
Barely. We're two elite melee units from the Daemonhunters faction that someone decided needed to be stretched into a standalone Codex. It'd be fabulous to get the old Inquisition lists back
As predicted, Sisters are going to get screwed again, no new models, copy-pasted rules with fewer units, and absolutely zero effort from GW.
*sigh* Yeah, let's just ignore the fact that this is scheduled for a December release while the reliable rumormongers pegged the Sisters re-release for Jan-Feb.
Rumormongers have been wrong about Sisters releases for over a decade. Sisters of Battle predictions have been the most consistent failure in rumormongering in all of Games Workshop history, except for those who were wise enough to say "it's not gonna happen".
I imagine we'll see all the digital only dataslates for Inquisition, Assassins, and Sorroritas updated and in print.
New dataslates to cover new stuff like the Wyrdvane Psykers.
Grey Knights are a toss up. They could list Grey Knight options, and then tell you to look at Codex: Grey Knights for stats, or they include the 23 Dataslates from Codex: Grey Knights, and not bother to reprint Codex Grey Knights any further.
I still feel like a Sisters codex would be something they release alongside the plastic models. They could release the codex in with this book, but with the expensive (and in my opinion hideous) pewter models, they would be missing out on the huge push in sales. If they release a sisters codex or even a codex containing sisters models once the plastic ones come out, they will easily push those models right off the shelves.
I simply cannot imagine a business bent around pushing as many new models as possible would sabotage their own efforts just to include a sisters codex in some weird Age of Sigmar styled book. It just doesn't make sense at all. At most they may include a squad of battle sisters and a cannoness or some such thing, but it won't be the entire sisters of battle line up.
Honestly 'Agents of the Imperium' is more likely to be Inquisition, Custodes, Sisters of Silence, and Assassins with the Sisters, Deathwatch, and GK left separate.
As an aside, a December release is "close enough" to a Jan/Feb release for the rumormongers to be considered correct, at least insofar as the date is concerned.
Release schedules shift all the time, and there is usually at least a 30 day (if not 60 or more) delay between printing and shipping to stores/online buyers, in just about every industry that deals with these sorts of things.
The Codex looks beefy. If the SoB are contained entirely within, and not just a part of it ala the Grey Knights, I'll be disappointed. Everything else about the codex excites me.
Melissia wrote: They've apparently already mentioned specific units from GK and DW that will be in it, so I don't know why you think it's so unlikely.
After four editions of my Daemonhunters/Witch Hunters army getting split across five-six books I thought it'd be unlikely they'd make anything convenient for me. I haven't seen anything concrete on the inclusion of GK and DW in Imperial Agents, we may have to wait and see.
dracpanzer wrote: If all of you "I would SoB so hard if they were just plastic with a paper dex!!!" are responsible for such a travesty of a mockery of a sham. I will be grumpy. And I will waste no time in annoyingly reminding you of what comes of hoping.
People saying that because they think it'll be cheaper in plastic might want to remember who we're dealing with. Genestealer Cults are all plastic as far as I can see, and GW want 600 quid for an 1850pt army.
Melissia wrote: They've apparently already mentioned specific units from GK and DW that will be in it, so I don't know why you think it's so unlikely.
After four editions of my Daemonhunters/Witch Hunters army getting split across five-six books I thought it'd be unlikely they'd make anything convenient for me. I haven't seen anything concrete on the inclusion of GK and DW in Imperial Agents, we may have to wait and see.
I've seen it mentioned specifically, for example, that there will be Grey Knights Terminators-- that that's an actual name for a unit in the book. No idea if that's correct, but yeah.
dracpanzer wrote: If all of you "I would SoB so hard if they were just plastic with a paper dex!!!" are responsible for such a travesty of a mockery of a sham. I will be grumpy. And I will waste no time in annoyingly reminding you of what comes of hoping.
People saying that because they think it'll be cheaper in plastic might want to remember who we're dealing with. Genestealer Cults are all plastic as far as I can see, and GW want 600 quid for an 1850pt army.
You want to guess what an 1850pt Sisters army is today at 8$+/model with the $60 tank kit the only way to get the transport parts?
(The most Sisters army I could find over in the army lists section of the forum was 1,320pts of Sisters and 524pts of Deathwatch, I came out at $625 US (about 500 quid) plus the two Repressors (which are out of print and go for $100+ on Ebay). 600 quid for a complete 1850pt army would be quite a step up.)
dracpanzer wrote: If all of you "I would SoB so hard if they were just plastic with a paper dex!!!" are responsible for such a travesty of a mockery of a sham. I will be grumpy. And I will waste no time in annoyingly reminding you of what comes of hoping.
People saying that because they think it'll be cheaper in plastic might want to remember who we're dealing with. Genestealer Cults are all plastic as far as I can see, and GW want 600 quid for an 1850pt army.
You want to guess what an 1850pt Sisters army is today at 8$+/model with the $60 tank kit the only way to get the transport parts?
(The most Sisters army I could find over in the army lists section of the forum was 1,320pts of Sisters and 524pts of Deathwatch, I came out at $625 US (about 500 quid) plus the two Repressors (which are out of print and go for $100+ on Ebay). 600 quid for a complete 1850pt army would be quite a step up.)
And that $8 per model is leaving out the $14 or more for every special weapon and every model of seraphim (to which your options are limited by single pose/weapon models), $13+ for each superior, and all the models you'd have to ebay because they keep going out of stock or are out of production.
So what we have is a combined arms codex, and no other news? No verification or official denial of SOB plastics? No proof that it's impossible to field an all-SOB army? Right, so maybe we can stop the doomsaying until we have verification.
dracpanzer wrote: If all of you "I would SoB so hard if they were just plastic with a paper dex!!!" are responsible for such a travesty of a mockery of a sham. I will be grumpy. And I will waste no time in annoyingly reminding you of what comes of hoping.
People saying that because they think it'll be cheaper in plastic might want to remember who we're dealing with. Genestealer Cults are all plastic as far as I can see, and GW want 600 quid for an 1850pt army.
Now, now. Plastic GSC are $40 USD for 5 models, same $8/model as SoB. Metal Daemonettes are $40 for 10. Guess how many Daemonettes GW is expecting to sell over the next week...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anpu-adom wrote: Either this book is huge (250 plus pages) because it is also background AND rules, or you get only a very select few units.
Well, let's just count from the press release:
Codex: Imperial Agents contains nine subfactions of the Imperial war-machine, from agents of the Inquisition to Wyrdvane Psykers of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica to reinforce your armies of the Imperium. After all, Deathwatch Kill Teams and Imperial Assassins are just as likely to be found working alongside regiments of the Astra MIlitarum or Space Marine strike forces as they are working by themselves, giving the Armies of the Imperium increased tactical choice and scope to conquer any foe. Within this volume you'll find background and rules for using nine smaller factions alongside your existing armies of the Imperium, from the Grey Knight Terminator squads to the BATTLE SISTERS OF THE ADEPTA SORORITAS.
Codex: Imperial Agents contains
1. Agents of the Inquisition
2. Wyrdvane Psykers
3. Deathwatch Kill Teams
4. Imperial Assassins
5. Grey Knight Terminators
6. Battle Sisters
That leaves 3 more smaller factions, and the most obvious 2 are:
7. Custodes
8. Sisters of Silence
The last?
9. Stormtroopers
This is not a standalone Sisters of Battle Codex. It is, instead, the last gasp of 40k 7E before 8E releases. That means there will *not* be a standalone Sisters of Battle Codex. GW obviously lacks any faith that Sisters will sell on their own for 7E.
At this point, the best hope is that GW throws a handful of Sisters into the 8E 40k starter box, like the current 30k box. Otherwise, it's going to be a while...
mmzero252 wrote: You want to guess what an 1850pt Sisters army is today at 8$+/model with the $60 tank kit the only way to get the transport parts?
They'll be cheaper than metal, sure, but from what I remember of pricing up other armies the usual price point for 1850 is about 400 quid. You can get the best part of a War Convocation for 400-ish including the Knight, and a half-decent Eldar army is less than 450 all-in if you start from scratch.
JohnHwangDD wrote: GW obviously lacks any faith that Sisters will sell on their own for 7E.
Which makes sense, if you think about it. Sisters run one of two ways - light mech or horde footslogging - and neither are working for this edition. Any new Codex is a full redesign/ reboot, and they're not lucrative enough for that to be worthwhile.
BBAP wrote: Which makes sense, if you think about it. Sisters run one of two ways - light mech or horde footslogging - and neither are working for this edition. Any new Codex is a full redesign/ reboot, and they're not lucrative enough for that to be worthwhile.
Nothing sells if you don't make even the slightest effort. So of course Sisters haven't been selling. That's like driving your car around every day with no signs on it and never getting it repaired and then wondering why nobody makes you an offer to buy it. Nobody knows it's for sale, nobody wants it because it's run down and old, and there's been no effort put in.
Right, but would that change even if GW pushed Sisters harder? They're not a very exciting army to play - they're solid, reliable performers who always give a good account of themselves, but their options are limited and they only really do one thing well (mid-range light mech). That's not the kind of army you can sell to new players. If you want to change that, you need a full reboot of the faction and its fluff, which costs money. You'd need to justify that expense, which you could do if all the existing players who say they'd play Sisters "if only" are serious, but I don't think they are.
BBAP wrote: Right, but would that change even if GW pushed Sisters harder? They're not a very exciting army to play - they're solid, reliable performers who always give a good account of themselves, but their options are limited and they only really do one thing well (mid-range light mech). That's not the kind of army you can sell to new players. If you want to change that, you need a full reboot of the faction and its fluff, which costs money. You'd need to justify that expense, which you could do if all the existing players who say they'd play Sisters "if only" are serious, but I don't think they are.
So, we are where we are.
If they pushed them they could be exciting - the many (and not so varied) marine armies are pretty similar - it is only relatively recently they have suddenly had an explosion of flavour units - like wolf men riding wolves holding wolf blades etc.
re cost of new range: I think that's a astraw man given that we have recently had Genestealer Cults, Deathwatch, Harlequins, Sisters of Silence, Custodians as well as a half hearted attempt at Adeptus Mechanicus
It would seem logical to keep adding new and different armies and units rather than either slightly different coloured marines or ones with outrageous "flavour units.
Again and again we go back to - if you make cool stuff and give it cool rules - people will buy it.
If they had made plastic Dominions, made them a bit cheaper (in price and pts) and then added the usual formation cheese on top - how many competitive players would have bought them?
Exactly. You can't just say sisters are boring and that's why nobody buys them as justification for GW not to sell them. It's GW's fault they seem boring in the first place. Again, if they put forth any effort...people would buy them. In my opnion Space marines are so much more boring than Sisters, but those sell in droves. Why? GW has poured all their money into them. Sisters would see sales with a rework and halfway decent models.
mmzero252 wrote: Exactly. You can't just say sisters are boring and that's why nobody buys them as justification for GW not to sell them. It's GW's fault they seem boring in the first place. Again, if they put forth any effort...people would buy them. In my opnion Space marines are so much more boring than Sisters, but those sell in droves. Why? GW has poured all their money into them. Sisters would see sales with a rework and halfway decent models.
Forum Rule... Don't Feed the Trolls. You are feeding the Trolls... stop it!
It is easy for them to target those who are excited by any sisters news or speculation.
mmzero252 wrote: Exactly. You can't just say sisters are boring and that's why nobody buys them as justification for GW not to sell them. It's GW's fault they seem boring in the first place. Again, if they put forth any effort...people would buy them. In my opnion Space marines are so much more boring than Sisters, but those sell in droves. Why? GW has poured all their money into them. Sisters would see sales with a rework and halfway decent models.
It's not that Sisters are "boring" - it's that they have very few options when it comes to how you run the army. With Sisters you either put a few girls in a metal box and give them special weapons, or you take lots of girls in big squads with heavy weapons. The latter isn't a good idea because it's a lot of eggs in a basket that sucks in CC and is Sweep-able, whereas the former isn't a good way to run an army in 7th Edition. Those are, however, your only options.
On the other hand, as a Space Marines player you have tonnes of options for army builds, plus tonnes more in the various supplements that are released every 10 days. You can build almost any kind of army you want, that plays however you want it to play, with all the gimmicks and toys of the universe, and you're not denied access to any of the other stuff you could've had instead. That's a much easier sell to new players than "here's six Immolators and 30 Battle Sisters, push them around the table and shoot stuff".
We agree that GW hasn't put enough effort into making the Sisters dynamic, and that it could easily be done. That requires GW to spend money though, and they're not going to do that unless the return can justify the investment, either by convincing existing players to start a new army or by helping GW attract new players to the game. Making the Sisters more dynamic without screwing up the faction would require a serious overhaul, and unless it's done properly I doubt it would convince enough existing players to switch - despite what people say, old sculpts and high cost aren't the only things keeping people from playing Sisters.
The question then becomes, could Sisters of Battle help GW attract more players to the game if they were pushed a bit harder? I think they probably could. That's not what GW is doing, however, so ho hum.
BBAP wrote: ...It's not that Sisters are "boring" - it's that they have very few options when it comes to how you run the army. With Sisters you either put a few girls in a metal box and give them special weapons, or you take lots of girls in big squads with heavy weapons. The latter isn't a good idea because it's a lot of eggs in a basket that sucks in CC and is Sweep-able, whereas the former isn't a good way to run an army in 7th Edition. Those are, however, your only options...
I could say the same of GK, Harlequins, Skitarii, KDK, MT...pretty much everyone that isn't a big main-sequence book or the Deathwatch. Sisters are far from alone in having poor internal balance or limited options (and at least they've got HQ choices and multiple options in some slots so they don't need to take exactly the same units in exactly the same proportions the way Harlequins do).
mmzero252 wrote: Exactly. You can't just say sisters are boring and that's why nobody buys them as justification for GW not to sell them. It's GW's fault they seem boring in the first place. Again, if they put forth any effort...people would buy them. In my opnion Space marines are so much more boring than Sisters, but those sell in droves. Why? GW has poured all their money into them. Sisters would see sales with a rework and halfway decent models.
It's not that Sisters are "boring" - it's that they have very few options when it comes to how you run the army. With Sisters you either put a few girls in a metal box and give them special weapons, or you take lots of girls in big squads with heavy weapons. The latter isn't a good idea because it's a lot of eggs in a basket that sucks in CC and is Sweep-able, whereas the former isn't a good way to run an army in 7th Edition. Those are, however, your only options.
On the other hand, as a Space Marines player you have tonnes of options for army builds, plus tonnes more in the various supplements that are released every 10 days. You can build almost any kind of army you want, that plays however you want it to play, with all the gimmicks and toys of the universe, and you're not denied access to any of the other stuff you could've had instead. That's a much easier sell to new players than "here's six Immolators and 30 Battle Sisters, push them around the table and shoot stuff".
We agree that GW hasn't put enough effort into making the Sisters dynamic, and that it could easily be done. That requires GW to spend money though, and they're not going to do that unless the return can justify the investment, either by convincing existing players to start a new army or by helping GW attract new players to the game. Making the Sisters more dynamic without screwing up the faction would require a serious overhaul, and unless it's done properly I doubt it would convince enough existing players to switch - despite what people say, old sculpts and high cost aren't the only things keeping people from playing Sisters.
The question then becomes, could Sisters of Battle help GW attract more players to the game if they were pushed a bit harder? I think they probably could. That's not what GW is doing, however, so ho hum.
By that (I would contend) flawed reasoning - GW should not have made anything other than Marines - and yet we have recently we have brand new Harlequins, Genstealer Cults, Ad Mech etc.
GW did not have to spend money to give Sisters formations - a few minutes is all they usually spend on these things. They could have done this in Shield of Baal when they actually spent money on commissioned artwork and fluff writing - but no rules - for no reason.
AnomanderRake wrote: I could say the same of GK, Harlequins, Skitarii, KDK, MT...pretty much everyone that isn't a big main-sequence book or the Deathwatch.
Right. Which is why GW don't use those factions to sell the game. They use Spice Maroons, because they have lots of toys and options that will appeal to new players and help them shift models.
As an aside, Harlequins seem like a textbook example of the risks inherent in trying to design an army that will sell to existing players. Brand new sculpts, brand new units, all kinds of hype and fanfare - then the Codex sucks. It sucks so hard you can't even take Harlies as Allies without damaging your army's effectiveness. That's a massive shame. The models are gorgeous and they deserve better rules.
AnomanderRake wrote: I could say the same of GK, Harlequins, Skitarii, KDK, MT...pretty much everyone that isn't a big main-sequence book or the Deathwatch.
Right. Which is why GW don't use those factions to sell the game. They use Spice Maroons, because they have lots of toys and options that will appeal to new players and help them shift models.
As an aside, Harlequins seem like a textbook example of the risks inherent in trying to design an army that will sell to existing players. Brand new sculpts, brand new units, all kinds of hype and fanfare - then the Codex sucks. It sucks so hard you can't even take Harlies as Allies without damaging your army's effectiveness. That's a massive shame. The models are gorgeous and they deserve better rules.
'Spice Maroons' are also designed to be cheap to start and easy to paint. GW tries to push whatever's new with more powerful rules, it's just that Space Marines are new more frequently.
As an aside to the aside Harlequins are a key ingredient in the Ld-shenanigans-stacking list that makes everything the other guy's got s**t their pants and run for the hills (and can RFP Wraithknights with no save and no chance of failure), a reasonable excuse for the power of some of the Eldar book ("I need a crutch to prop up the Harlequins!"), and otherwise mostly odd.
Mr Morden wrote: By that (I would contend) flawed reasoning - GW should not have made anything other than Marines
Not sure how you reached that conclusion. GW use Marines to sell the game to new players and impulse-buyers; they bring in the best return, so they get the most investment. The other factions add variety; they generally sell to existing players or people who've done a bit of reading around, which is a smaller return, hence less investment overall.
GW did not have to spend money to give Sisters formations - a few minutes is all they usually spend on these things.
Even supposing the person writing the Codex is on an hourly rate, he/she has to stop whatever else they're doing and come up with a Formation that is game-legal and uses units from the Codex. That's GW spending money - or rather **wasting** money, since it isn't likely to fix the Sisters and hence isn't likely to attract new buyers for the old sculpts. That's why so little changed between 5th and 6th Ed. I'm not even sure why they bothered to be honest.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AnomanderRake wrote: As an aside to the aside Harlequins are a key ingredient in the Ld-shenanigans-stacking list that makes everything the other guy's got s**t their pants and run for the hills (and can RFP Wraithknights with no save and no chance of failure), a reasonable excuse for the power of some of the Eldar book ("I need a crutch to prop up the Harlequins!"), and otherwise mostly odd.
That's less a "crutch", more a prosthetic leg. I've never seen the Ld-stacking-shenanigans list, but if it calls for Harlequins it's probably an expensive, fragile shenanigan, especially now Veil of Tears isn't an auto-bubble anymore.
AnomanderRake wrote: As an aside to the aside Harlequins are a key ingredient in the Ld-shenanigans-stacking list that makes everything the other guy's got s**t their pants and run for the hills (and can RFP Wraithknights with no save and no chance of failure), a reasonable excuse for the power of some of the Eldar book ("I need a crutch to prop up the Harlequins!"), and otherwise mostly odd.
That's less a "crutch", more a prosthetic leg. I've never seen the Ld-stacking-shenanigans list, but if it calls for Harlequins it's probably an expensive, fragile shenanigan, especially now Veil of Tears isn't an auto-bubble anymore.
It's more comedic than powerful given how unreliable/expensive it is (it takes in excess of 500pts and you need a specific set of 3-4 powers off of three different disciplines); you need a Mask of Secrets Shadowseer, an Armour of Misery DEHQ (with a Webway portal for delivery, most likely), and a Seer Council. Plonk it next to a deathstar you don't like and it's passively at -4Ld, add a cast of Horrify and you've now got a Ld 3 (at most) enemy unit. Mirror of Minds auto-RFPs a chosen model (since you keep rolling until the other guy's d6+3 result is higher than your d6+10 result you just keep going until he's dead, no matter how many saves he makes), and Fearless/ATSKNF doesn't affect Dominate so they'll need to roll a 3 or under on 2d6 to do anything.
That requires GW to spend money though, and they're not going to do that unless the return can justify the investment, either by convincing existing players to start a new army or by helping GW attract new players to the game
As we keep saying - exactly as they did with Genestealers, Harlequins, Ad Mech - if they did that with those - which were as big or more of a risk why not Sisters?
Also they plough the vast majority of the resources into Marines - which is a major reason they sell wellm, when makes them spend more time on them , and guess what they sell more - its a circle. GW are cashing in on their IP at their moment - all the good old stuff - and hopefully (apparently) doing well.
Even supposing the person writing the Codex is on an hourly rate, he/she has to stop whatever else they're doing and come up with a Formation that is game-legal and uses units from the Codex. That's GW spending money - or rather **wasting** money, since it isn't likely to fix the Sisters and hence isn't likely to attract new buyers for the old sculpts. That's why so little changed between 5th and 6th Ed. I'm not even sure why they bothered to be honest.
Again ten minutes given they don't care about balance and as I said they already spent much much more on the new artwork and large amount of fluff writing about the Sisters - it made Zero sense to then not give new rules - esp when a new fluff Special character is clearly based on a current model.
Yes in fact formations might have helped sell to more competitive players - some of the SOB units were strong before the 7.5 cheese dexes - dominions were envied by those Marine players who played against them - 4 melta guns in a scouting vehicle with its own MM and they can ignore cover.
Add in a formation that say allows re-rolls to hit and auto pass AOF and they start to become more like the cheese units that sell so well.
Not sure I actually like the way the AoF changed over time from how they were in WH. Would be nice if it went back a bit to where it's a set of powers and you have faith points generated by the superiors to use for it. The rolling higher or lower was a bit of burden of knowledge but not that bad if you played against sisters often enough. Kind of similar a little to how psykers work now, but to me it felt more useful for the sisters to basically pray depending on the situation rather than the tacked on special rules each unit has now instead.
I like the flavor of Sisters having special and heavy weapons almost everywhere. That does mean, however, that we are usually spending twice the cost of the model on weapons for her. *shrug*
The one turn powers... weak. It leaves the sisters overcosted. I liked how the WD codex worked... as long as you were playing with less than 750 points of sisters. Scaling the number of points would have been clunky, but better than this.
When it comes to SoB I think their faith and powers through miracles and such should be a persistent ability that situationally gets better as things turn more dire... making them into a force you can't count out in the late game.
Mr Morden wrote: As we keep saying - exactly as they did with Genestealers, Harlequins, Ad Mech - if they did that with those - which were as big or more of a risk why not Sisters?
Were they as big of a risk? There's always been a big demand for official AdMech stuff as far as I remember, and the Genestealer Cult are older than the hills, they just haven't had a Codex since 2nd Edition. Everyone who's been playing for any length of time remembers that ridiculous limo (which they replaced with Tonka trucks - I want my limo, damnit!).
Sisters, on the other hand, have always just sort of... been there. The people who play them are really ardent devotees, but despite that there's never really been much demand for them. It's growing, which is good, but still. To my mind, the only one of those armies where the risk is comparable would be Harlequins - that needed to be built from scratch with new sculpts and rules and everything, and given how dross that Codex was, I'm pretty sure it never made its money back. Why would GW risk that happening again?
To be honest I'm finding it hard to be unhappy with what we've got here. Old-school 3rd Ed Inquisition armies were a ton of fun to play, and if they bring that back I'll be happy enough. if there's a bit of competitive steel down the spine I'll be even happier.
Also they plough the vast majority of the resources into Marines - which is a major reason they sell wellm, when makes them spend more time on them , and guess what they sell more - its a circle.
That's not how I see it. GW uses Marines to push the game; they're the poster boys, so they get the most investment. They sell more because they're actively promoted to curious browsers. You disagree. Neither of us know for sure.
GW are cashing in on their IP at their moment - all the good old stuff - and hopefully (apparently) doing well.
Yeah... apparently. Far as I know their bottom line has recovered to the same place it was in 2011 after a few years of shrinkage. I don't even think they paid a share dividend in 2013/14. That's a story for another time, though.
Again ten minutes given they don't care about balance
That's not how you run a business. If you're paying someone for that ten minutes, you want ten minutes' productive work out of it. The rest of the Codex was more or less a cut and paste job; they shuffled some deckchairs around and incorporated some stuff from FW rulesets, just enough to make it different enough from the WD centrefold that you'd have to buy it to play Sisters, but that was all they did. It was all they needed to do. It wasn't done to sell Sisters - it was done to rake in a bit of cash from people who already own the army and want to keep playing it.
and as I said they already spent much much more on the new artwork and large amount of fluff writing about the Sisters - it made Zero sense to then not give new rules - esp when a new fluff Special character is clearly based on a current model.
Who's the "new" fluff special character you're referring to? It's not Jacobus - he was in the 2nd Edition Codex, if I remember right. They chucked him because he was worthless, and because they needed to fit the Ordo hereticus units in somewhere. Celestine was in the 3rd Edition book.
Yes in fact formations might have helped sell to more competitive players - some of the SOB units were strong before the 7.5 cheese dexes
They still are. I'd take Battle Sisters, Dominions and Retributors as Allies any day of the week, TLMM Immolators are a bargain, and Saint Celestine is pretty amazing for her points. As a whole though, the army hasn't been strong since The Cruddening in 5th Edition.
Give St Celestine Eternal Warrior
Everyone says this, but I don't think people appreciate just what an absolute monster Celestine is already. Jump Infantry (so 12" move per turn and no way to block her with transports etc.), Hit and Run (immune to clogging), six attacks on the charge, hitting most everything on a 3+ thanks to WS7, killing most everything on a 3+ thanks to S5 AP3 (which is high enough to reliably hurt most vehicles), almost always striking first thanks to I7 and grenades (so half your squad is dead before they even get to swing back). Defensively she has a HF for Overwatch, five attacks at I7, a 2+/4++ save, and even supposing you manage to kill her she comes back from the dead with all of her wounds restored if she passes her AoF on Ld10... and now you want to give her full immunity to powerfists, instead of just the partial immunity she already has? She's undercosted as it is - you stick EW in there and she'd need to cost 200-odd points.
Anpu-adom wrote: I like the flavor of Sisters having special and heavy weapons almost everywhere. That does mean, however, that we are usually spending twice the cost of the model on weapons for her. *shrug*
I agree that the $ 16-ish Heavy / Special models are fairly priced at twice the cost of the $8 basic Sister. Pushing more of the $16 models per squad is good for GW's bottom line.
I was tossing ideas around with my brother and this occurred to me....
What if Sisters don't get the Rhino?
Hold on with me.
The rest of their vehicles could be based on the Chimera instead. Repressor... on Chimera frame. Immolator... on Chimera frame... Exerorcist... on Chimera frame.
It would be distinct from the Space Marines, tie it closer to the rest of the Inquisition.
Mr Morden wrote: As we keep saying - exactly as they did with Genestealers, Harlequins, Ad Mech - if they did that with those - which were as big or more of a risk why not Sisters?
Were they as big of a risk? There's always been a big demand for official AdMech stuff as far as I remember, and the Genestealer Cult are older than the hills, they just haven't had a Codex since 2nd Edition. Everyone who's been playing for any length of time remembers that ridiculous limo (which they replaced with Tonka trucks - I want my limo, damnit!).
Sisters, on the other hand, have always just sort of... been there. The people who play them are really ardent devotees, but despite that there's never really been much demand for them. It's growing, which is good, but still. To my mind, the only one of those armies where the risk is comparable would be Harlequins - that needed to be built from scratch with new sculpts and rules and everything, and given how dross that Codex was, I'm pretty sure it never made its money back. Why would GW risk that happening again?
To be honest I'm finding it hard to be unhappy with what we've got here. Old-school 3rd Ed Inquisition armies were a ton of fun to play, and if they bring that back I'll be happy enough. if there's a bit of competitive steel down the spine I'll be even happier.
Also they plough the vast majority of the resources into Marines - which is a major reason they sell wellm, when makes them spend more time on them , and guess what they sell more - its a circle.
That's not how I see it. GW uses Marines to push the game; they're the poster boys, so they get the most investment. They sell more because they're actively promoted to curious browsers. You disagree. Neither of us know for sure.
GW are cashing in on their IP at their moment - all the good old stuff - and hopefully (apparently) doing well.
Yeah... apparently. Far as I know their bottom line has recovered to the same place it was in 2011 after a few years of shrinkage. I don't even think they paid a share dividend in 2013/14. That's a story for another time, though.
Again ten minutes given they don't care about balance
That's not how you run a business. If you're paying someone for that ten minutes, you want ten minutes' productive work out of it. The rest of the Codex was more or less a cut and paste job; they shuffled some deckchairs around and incorporated some stuff from FW rulesets, just enough to make it different enough from the WD centrefold that you'd have to buy it to play Sisters, but that was all they did. It was all they needed to do. It wasn't done to sell Sisters - it was done to rake in a bit of cash from people who already own the army and want to keep playing it.
and as I said they already spent much much more on the new artwork and large amount of fluff writing about the Sisters - it made Zero sense to then not give new rules - esp when a new fluff Special character is clearly based on a current model.
Who's the "new" fluff special character you're referring to? It's not Jacobus - he was in the 2nd Edition Codex, if I remember right. They chucked him because he was worthless, and because they needed to fit the Ordo hereticus units in somewhere. Celestine was in the 3rd Edition book.
Yes in fact formations might have helped sell to more competitive players - some of the SOB units were strong before the 7.5 cheese dexes
They still are. I'd take Battle Sisters, Dominions and Retributors as Allies any day of the week, TLMM Immolators are a bargain, and Saint Celestine is pretty amazing for her points. As a whole though, the army hasn't been strong since The Cruddening in 5th Edition.
Give St Celestine Eternal Warrior
Everyone says this, but I don't think people appreciate just what an absolute monster Celestine is already. Jump Infantry (so 12" move per turn and no way to block her with transports etc.), Hit and Run (immune to clogging), six attacks on the charge, hitting most everything on a 3+ thanks to WS7, killing most everything on a 3+ thanks to S5 AP3 (which is high enough to reliably hurt most vehicles), almost always striking first thanks to I7 and grenades (so half your squad is dead before they even get to swing back). Defensively she has a HF for Overwatch, five attacks at I7, a 2+/4++ save, and even supposing you manage to kill her she comes back from the dead with all of her wounds restored if she passes her AoF on Ld10... and now you want to give her full immunity to powerfists, instead of just the partial immunity she already has? She's undercosted as it is - you stick EW in there and she'd need to cost 200-odd points.
As I said GW really don't care about Balance - if they made a new St Celestine model along the lines of the main Stormcast guy - she would be undercosted / overpowered - just like all the other cool models these days - Wraithknights et al. They have a business model of "selling the models - with some rules if you want them I guess".
The new fluff character I mentioned was Cannoness Magda Grace, The Martyr Saint of Lysios who the artist obviously based on the current Cannoness model - complete with the book St. Lucius.
Spoiler:
It was then that the Lictors attacked…… Atop the hull of the exorcist missile tank she had chosen for her pulpit, Magda Grace suddenly pitched forwards with a cry of surprise. A long limbed beast loomed out of the shadows of the tank’s missile array to stoop over her, blade-like limbs stabbing down fast. They clanged from metal alone, for the cannoness had rolled with the impetus of the beasts previous blow instead of fighting it. She clattered down the front if the exorcist to land in a loose crouch. Without looking she drew her engraved bolt pistol, reached back over her head and pulled the trigger. Her instincts were true. The bolt plunged right between the creature’s eyes and detonated, painting the front of the Exorcist with contents of its cranium
Yes I agree that the current AS list is not awful, it has units that work, some as you note work very, very well - but as I said - add in the usual 7.5 edition cheese like super formations and the like and then you would see more sales.
Everyone says this, but I don't think people appreciate just what an absolute monster Celestine is already. Jump Infantry (so 12" move per turn and no way to block her with transports etc.), Hit and Run (immune to clogging), six attacks on the charge, hitting most everything on a 3+ thanks to WS7, killing most everything on a 3+ thanks to S5 AP3 (which is high enough to reliably hurt most vehicles), almost always striking first thanks to I7 and grenades (so half your squad is dead before they even get to swing back). Defensively she has a HF for Overwatch, five attacks at I7, a 2+/4++ save, and even supposing you manage to kill her she comes back from the dead with all of her wounds restored if she passes her AoF on Ld10... and now you want to give her full immunity to powerfists, instead of just the partial immunity she already has? She's undercosted as it is - you stick EW in there and she'd need to cost 200-odd points.
HAhAHAHAHAHahaHAHAHAHAHAH! No. At 135 points Celestine seems really good because the other HQ options are terrible, but ultimately she's still over costed for what she is, a character that dies to a wet fart and can't do anything against 2+ armor. I would say eternal warrior would put her at about 145pts if she stayed AP3. If she got bumped up to AP 2 on top of that then you'd be in the 180-190 range. Without some kind of special squad buff, she's never break 200 though. I mean CM Smashfether is only 220 for S8 Ap2 T5 Bike(Better than Jumppack) 4 attacks WS 6 4 wounds EW, +2 to FNP, 2+3++, oh and 15 more points gets you the same number of attacks at the same weapon profile as a secondary option, oh and a S10 Ap2 Large Blast. Sure, in 4th she might have been extremely powerful but in 7th she's just a useful CC character.
Is that still legal with only one relic per model? Otherwise agree re St C - she is great but either give her EW or make her AOF multi use
He only ever had 1 relic, it was MURDERWINGS that used 2. He takes the Gorgon's Chain, a powerfist and a bike and he's pretty much unstoppable outside of Dshots and Stomps. Oh IWND forgot about that too.
Mr Morden wrote: As I said GW really don't care about Balance - if they made a new St Celestine model along the lines of the main Stormcast guy - she would be undercosted / overpowered - just like all the other cool models these days - Wraithknights et al. They have a business model of "selling the models - with some rules if you want them I guess".
I disagree with your assessment of GW's game design policies, I disagree that Wraithknights are OP/ undercosted, and I think you're just wrong in general - but I've said all this before. I think we're done on this point.
The new fluff character I mentioned was Cannoness Magda Grace, The Martyr Saint of Lysios who the artist obviously based on the current Cannoness model - complete with the book St. Lucius
Right. Your argument is that GW spent loads of money producing this character and her artwork, hence they could've spent a bit more updating the SoB rules. What I see is some corny spiel about a woman in power armour somersaulting off a tank and one-shotting a Lictor with a bolt pistol. This was clearly written by C.S. Goto at 4:55pm on Christmas Eve. I haven't seen the artwork, but you can commission a digital artist for a couple of hundred quid per image. Paying game designers to redo a Codex is more expensive than that, whether or not you care about game balance.
Yes I agree that the current AS list is not awful, it has units that work, some as you note work very, very well - but as I said - add in the usual 7.5 edition cheese like super formations and the like and then you would see more sales.
No doubt, but would the increased sales justify the cost of redoing the Codex? That's the question I want a proper answer to. I haven't had one yet.
ERJAK wrote: HAhAHAHAHAHahaHAHAHAHAHAH! No. At 135 points Celestine seems really good because the other HQ options are terrible
Define "terrible". The Canoness seems fine to me. A bit overpriced maybe, but she is what she is.
but ultimately she's still over costed for what she is, a character that dies to a wet fart and can't do anything against 2+ armor.
She's I7 Jump Infantry with grenades, puts out 6 S5 AP3 attacks on the charge, has a 2+/4++ save, a Heavy Flamer, and she comes back to life if she's killed. Try building that character for 135pts in any other Codex. Two wounds (to represent the chance of a Scatterlaser killing her), 2+/4++, all the other stuff Celestine has, for 135pts. Let me see it.
"Overcosted". You can fit her and some Seraphim in an army alongside 11 tanks. She's not even remotely overcosted.
I would say eternal warrior would put her at about 145pts if she stayed AP3
She comes back to life. You want a six 2+/4++ wounds on Celestine for 145pts.
No. Just no.
Celestine is not Smashfether. She's not going to kill Smashfether, or a Wraithknight, or a First Curse. She will, however, tear a big angel-shaped hole through 90-odd percent of the units in the game, including light vehicles, for 135pts. I'm happy with that. Very happy indeed. I'll take that all day long if I'm building a CC unit.
If you want Smashfether, you must pay Smashfether points.
Why is everyone getting their power armor in a bunch over this agents of the imperium book? It's going to be just like angels of death and traitors hate. It will be a collection of assorted formations and units that were previously released in independant dataslates. It will probably have all of the inquisition it, and a few select units from other factions, ie GK termies and SoB battle sisters, so you have options other than henchmen. All we can really hope for, is that it *may* have a couple new formations, but I doubt it. It looks like it's going to be the new 'Codex Inquisition', except rebranded.
The rest of their vehicles could be based on the Chimera instead. Repressor... on Chimera frame. Immolator... on Chimera frame... Exerorcist... on Chimera frame.
It would be distinct from the Space Marines, tie it closer to the rest of the Inquisition.
If the Sisters don't get the Rhino, then they will NOT get alternate turret Chimera / Hellhound models.
Instead, they would get an all-new vehicle that is unique and distinct to the Sisters. Just as the Stormtroopers got their ridiculous new tank, and GSC got their new truck, the Sisters will get something special all to themselves. The fact that people would have to buy the official models is only a good thing for GW's revenue.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
deviantduck wrote: Why is everyone getting their power armor in a bunch over this agents of the imperium book? It's going to be just like angels of death and traitors hate. It will be a collection of assorted formations and units that were previously released in independant dataslates. It will probably have all of the inquisition it, and a few select units from other factions, ie GK termies and SoB battle sisters, so you have options other than henchmen. All we can really hope for, is that it *may* have a couple new formations, but I doubt it. It looks like it's going to be the new 'Codex Inquisition', except rebranded.
What I really hope is that Agents of the Imperium is the only Battle Brothers choice for Imperial Armies, and all others get bumped down a notch to regular Allies.
Anpu-adom wrote: I was tossing ideas around with my brother and this occurred to me....
What if Sisters don't get the Rhino?
Hold on with me.
The rest of their vehicles could be based on the Chimera instead. Repressor... on Chimera frame. Immolator... on Chimera frame... Exerorcist... on Chimera frame.
It would be distinct from the Space Marines, tie it closer to the rest of the Inquisition.
Doubtful. For once, i feel Hwang is rogjt. More likely sisters will get their own vehicle if we dont get the rhino.
Mr Morden wrote: As I said GW really don't care about Balance - if they made a new St Celestine model along the lines of the main Stormcast guy - she would be undercosted / overpowered - just like all the other cool models these days - Wraithknights et al. They have a business model of "selling the models - with some rules if you want them I guess".
I disagree with your assessment of GW's game design policies, I disagree that Wraithknights are OP/ undercosted, and I think you're just wrong in general - but I've said all this before. I think we're done on this point.
The new fluff character I mentioned was Cannoness Magda Grace, The Martyr Saint of Lysios who the artist obviously based on the current Cannoness model - complete with the book St. Lucius
Right. Your argument is that GW spent loads of money producing this character and her artwork, hence they could've spent a bit more updating the SoB rules. What I see is some corny spiel about a woman in power armour somersaulting off a tank and one-shotting a Lictor with a bolt pistol. This was clearly written by C.S. Goto at 4:55pm on Christmas Eve. I haven't seen the artwork, but you can commission a digital artist for a couple of hundred quid per image. Paying game designers to redo a Codex is more expensive than that, whether or not you care about game balance.
Yes I agree that the current AS list is not awful, it has units that work, some as you note work very, very well - but as I said - add in the usual 7.5 edition cheese like super formations and the like and then you would see more sales.
No doubt, but would the increased sales justify the cost of redoing the Codex? That's the question I want a proper answer to. I haven't had one yet.
ERJAK wrote: HAhAHAHAHAHahaHAHAHAHAHAH! No. At 135 points Celestine seems really good because the other HQ options are terrible
Define "terrible". The Canoness seems fine to me. A bit overpriced maybe, but she is what she is.
but ultimately she's still over costed for what she is, a character that dies to a wet fart and can't do anything against 2+ armor.
She's I7 Jump Infantry with grenades, puts out 6 S5 AP3 attacks on the charge, has a 2+/4++ save, a Heavy Flamer, and she comes back to life if she's killed. Try building that character for 135pts in any other Codex. Two wounds (to represent the chance of a Scatterlaser killing her), 2+/4++, all the other stuff Celestine has, for 135pts. Let me see it.
"Overcosted". You can fit her and some Seraphim in an army alongside 11 tanks. She's not even remotely overcosted.
I would say eternal warrior would put her at about 145pts if she stayed AP3
She comes back to life. You want a six 2+/4++ wounds on Celestine for 145pts.
No. Just no.
Celestine is not Smashfether. She's not going to kill Smashfether, or a Wraithknight, or a First Curse. She will, however, tear a big angel-shaped hole through 90-odd percent of the units in the game, including light vehicles, for 135pts. I'm happy with that. Very happy indeed. I'll take that all day long if I'm building a CC unit.
If you want Smashfether, you must pay Smashfether points.
1. The canoness is about 45 points more expensive than she should be. Pretty much the only thing you're paying for is LD 10 and the ability to take wargear. She's irrelevant in CC and only funcitonally has 1 wound if you don't buy the 25 point EW upgrade.
2. I don't have to build that character for any other codex because the vast majority of other codex have better options. Eldar take scatt bikes or warps spiders, SM take 4 grav Cannons, Necrons take a decent buffing HQ, all the good books in the game have a better way of spending 135 points for a models that might take out one squad of tactical marines.
3. You pretty much get locked into taking seraphim who are fine, but are not going to do much other than bodyblock for celestine against most meta/semi-meta armies. They're very similar in power (+-8%) assault marines and no one takes those either.
4. Culexus assasin is 140pts and not only beats Celestine in CC 50-60% of the time but has INSANE utility compared to her.
5. Overcosted doesn't mean 'can't fit her in' it mean 'Can get better value elsewhere' and to be frank, most of the good codexes can. 1 Thunderwolf with a +1 S weapon and a SS beats her in combat pretty much every time.
6. I'm not saying she's not good, she is, for about half the codexes in the game she'd be really awesome; BUT that doesn't change the fact that if she was in Eldar, Chaose Demons, Space Wolves, Space Marines, Necrons, Chaos renegades, Dark Angels, WarCon, or Tau, the only time you'd ever see her is if if they need hit and run for something.
She's a close combat beatstick that dies to a stiff breeze and CAN FAIL her get-back-up, in an era where CC beatstick models are for TANKING rather than doing damage. Ultimately she's fine but she could be better without ever reaching broken.
ERJAK wrote: 1. The canoness is about 45 points more expensive than she should be. Pretty much the only thing you're paying for is LD 10 and the ability to take wargear. She's irrelevant in CC and only funcitonally has 1 wound if you don't buy the 25 point EW upgrade.
I don't disagree - she's a cheap minimum HQ with no utility, so she should cost less. As it stands reducing her price wouldn't really allow me to bring anything I don't already have in spades, so I'm fine with it.
2. I don't have to build that character for any other codex because the vast majority of other codex have better options.Eldar take scatt bikes or warps spiders, SM take 4 grav Cannons, Necrons take a decent buffing HQ, all the good books in the game have a better way of spending 135 points for a models that might take out one squad of tactical marines.
You're trying to shift the goalposts here. Of course there are "better" ways to spend 135pts than Celestine - but there are "better" ways to spend 220pts than powerfist Smashfether. Point is, for what Celestine gives you, she's worth paying for, and if you want utility then she's got more of that than Smashfether.
3. You pretty much get locked into taking seraphim who are fine, but are not going to do much other than bodyblock for celestine against most meta/semi-meta armies. They're very similar in power (+-8%) assault marines and no one takes those either.
I'm not "locked" into anything. I can run her in a unit of Seraphim if I like, or I can not do that. I can DS her in front of an opponent so he kills her - then she comes back next turn and removes one of his squads from play. Or maybe he doesn't kill her and she removes two of his squads. That also works if you run her on her own; whatever is shooting at her isn't shooting at the rest of your army.
I can also bring her as part of an Invisible deathstar so the whole unit gets HnR and can reroll charges if she walks. I can DS her for an all-but guaranteed Electrodisplacement - kill her if you like, she'll come back from the dead next turn and then I'm in your backline. I can split her off from the deathstar to either kill or soften up stuff like Genestealers - which she can hold her own against, unlike most 135pt ICs - or grab objectives without having to break up Conclaves etc.
There's tonnes of stuff you can do with her. She's a steal for what she costs.
4. Culexus assasin is 140pts and not only beats Celestine in CC 50-60% of the time but has INSANE utility compared to her.
Against Invisible deathstars he has "INSANE utility". Against anyone else he's about as good as Celestine, except he doesn't come back from the dead and can be boxed off by transports. There's nothing sadder than watching a Culexus walking his Lycra ass all the way around a pair of Rhinos, stopping occasionally to plink away with his sad little Speculum and mabye kicking the back doors really hard to no noticeable effect. Celestine just glides right over that nonsense.
Again though, it's not an either-or. If you have a need you can bring them both.
5. Overcosted doesn't mean 'can't fit her in' it mean 'Can get better value elsewhere'
If we're talking in general terms then yeah, I could swap Celestine for a Subterranean Uprising or a Leman Russ Vanquisher or anything else that would make more sense in whatever army I'm running. What I'm saying is that Celestine really isn't a bad way to spend 135pts if you have a need, especially considering what you get.
1 Thunderwolf with a +1 S weapon and a SS beats her in combat pretty much every time.
So don't charge her at Thunderwolves. You're not bringing Celestine to have one-on-one fights with souped-up melee ICs or tough . You're bringing her to carve up infantry and do tricks. She can do that just fine.
6. I'm not saying she's not good, she is, for about half the codexes in the game she'd be really awesome; BUT that doesn't change the fact that if she was in Eldar, Chaose Demons, Space Wolves, Space Marines, Necrons, Chaos renegades, Dark Angels, WarCon, or Tau, the only time you'd ever see her is if if they need hit and run for something.
Indeed - but Smashfether wouldn't fit in many of those lists either unless they were built around him. I'm not saying she's an auto-include. I'm saying for what she costs, she's worth bringing.
She's a close combat beatstick that dies to a stiff breeze and CAN FAIL her get-back-up, in an era where CC beatstick models are for TANKING rather than doing damage. Ultimately she's fine but she could be better without ever reaching broken.
I don't disagree with any of this - in fact at the start of this exchange I was the one saying "she's fine", whereas you were the one saying she's overcosted or whatever. I don't disagree that she could be better - but she's plenty nasty as she is. She doesn't need to be better, and if she was better she'd need to cost more points.
BBAP wrote: Right, but would that change even if GW pushed Sisters harder? They're not a very exciting army to play - they're solid, reliable performers who always give a good account of themselves, but their options are limited and they only really do one thing well (mid-range light mech). That's not the kind of army you can sell to new players. If you want to change that, you need a full reboot of the faction and its fluff, which costs money. You'd need to justify that expense, which you could do if all the existing players who say they'd play Sisters "if only" are serious, but I don't think they are.
So, we are where we are.
That sounds pretty much what dark eldar were before their reboot...Which sold pretty well then.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BBAP wrote: Right. Your argument is that GW spent loads of money producing this character and her artwork, hence they could've spent a bit more updating the SoB rules. What I see is some corny spiel about a woman in power armour somersaulting off a tank and one-shotting a Lictor with a bolt pistol. This was clearly written by C.S. Goto at 4:55pm on Christmas Eve. I haven't seen the artwork, but you can commission a digital artist for a couple of hundred quid per image. Paying game designers to redo a Codex is more expensive than that, whether or not you care about game balance.
You know they don't have to redo whole codex to give new rules...There's you know alternatives:
a) redo old digital codex. Keep's the fluff and layout pretty much as it is. Just add in couple pages for formations and maybe some new wargear. Fix units.
b) utilize old codex but give them say new special character and couple formations in the campaign that had that art. It's just couple pages more. Any game designer who isn't too concerned about balance(that's every GW designer therefore) can do that much quickly. Cheaper than the art most likely since it's quicker to do. Doubtful game designer hourly rate is higher than artist. Pretty sure it's actually reverse as it seems that game designer wages are pretty low on priority.
tneva82 wrote: That sounds pretty much what dark eldar were before their reboot...Which sold pretty well then.
In 5th Edition that was all you needed to succed 9/10ths of the time. Nowadays it's not enough - hence why nobody plays Sisters or DEldar anymore. Sisters need to be retooled for 7th if you want people to play them, which seems to be what's happening.
You know they don't have to redo whole codex to give new rules...There's you know alternatives:
a) redo old digital codex. Keep's the fluff and layout pretty much as it is. Just add in couple pages for formations and maybe some new wargear. Fix units.
Unless the Formations give the vehicles extra HP or make Immolators free then it's unlikely to increase their viability in competitions, and neither would change the "push and shoot" style of play.
b) utilize old codex but give them say new special character and couple formations in the campaign that had that art. It's just couple pages more. Any game designer who isn't too concerned about balance(that's every GW designer therefore) can do that much quickly.
So you don't care about balance either, because you're suggesting this as a poitential redesign strategy. Again, they **could** do this, but fixing a faction is only worth the commitment in time and money if it's going to bring in a return. That's just how it works if you have investors to pay.
Cheaper than the art most likely since it's quicker to do. Doubtful game designer hourly rate is higher than artist. Pretty sure it's actually reverse as it seems that game designer wages are pretty low on priority.
You're looking at it wrong. You don't have to hire an artist onto staff; just go to deviantart or somewhere similar and commission one. A couple of pictures won't cost you more than a few hundred quid or so. The game designers, on the other hand, are salaried staff members who probably have other things to do when they're not designing the rules for a single faction. Their time doesn't just cost you money; it costs you productivity in other areas.
This is all moot now, though. New Codex in Jan/ Feb next year. i predict the Sisters will still be "push and shoot" units, but they'll have enough back-up to make that stick. I'm looking forward to it.
Formations for Sisters would be freakin' easy, is the thing.
If you take their Decurion style, everyone gets +1 to their Shield of Faith invuln and a second Act of Faith. (And Warlord Trait rerolls, I guess.)
1-3 Exorcists and 1-3 Priests would grant, say, a re-roll on number of shots fired, or else maybe the ability to pool all their missiles and gain some special rule. (Re-rolls to hit?)
1+ Peninent Engines and 2+ units of Repentia gives you Fleet or maybe Crusader, and Furious Charge for the Repentia.
One Cannoness and a Command Squad gives everyone involved +1 WS and Fearless.
2+ Seraphim units give, say, re-rolls on their Deep Strike and Re-rolls to hit on the turn they come in from reserve. (So that way there's a reason to go for Inferno Pistols.)
Since you need a big, large troop-centric detachment, 3-6 units of Battle Sisters, a Cannonness, 1-3 units of Dominions, 1-3 Retributors, 0-1 Celestians, 0-3 Priests. (Uriah can be taken instead of one of the priests.) Everyone involved gets an extra Act of Faith, and the Cannonness's AoF becomes a 12" bubble instead of only affecting her unit.
This took like, five minutes to throw together. It's not overwhelmingly powerful, but it does provide a lot more utility to certain units, bump Sisters durability to something at least half decent, and gives players a reason to take some units they might otherwise avoid.
(And yes, BTW, I know that the +1 Invuln could stack with the Warlord Trait which does the same. I don't see one unit getting a 4+ Invuln as all that bad. Even with Allied psykers giving Sanctuary, there's no way to get a save better than 3++, and Seraphim can't get better than a 4++ rerollable unless they slow down to foot traffic speed.)
I disagree that Wraithknights are OP/ undercosted, and I think you're just wrong in general - but I've said all this before. I think we're done on this point.
Wraith Knights are fine and not OP / undercosted - hmm - really?? - what is you opinion on multiple Riptides, Eldar jet bikes - fair and balanced?- as in Fox News style Fair and balanced?
Your argument is that GW spent loads of money producing this character and her artwork, hence they could've spent a bit more updating the SoB rules. What I see is some corny spiel about a woman in power armour somersaulting off a tank and one-shotting a Lictor with a bolt pistol. This was clearly written by C.S. Goto at 4:55pm on Christmas Eve. I haven't seen the artwork, but you can commission a digital artist for a couple of hundred quid per image. Paying game designers to redo a Codex is more expensive than that, whether or not you care about game balance.
Ah now you are twisting things - you were the one who said that GW would not spend any money on Sisters without a return - I showed that they had in fact spent money - on multiple pieces of artwork and whatever your own opinion of the text - someone to write lots of words. I hate the current Wolfy mcWolf riding a wolf with a wolf sword version of the Spacec Wolves - byu your reasoning that means they should not be there? The entire Space Wolves fluff has gone for cool to (IMO) dire.
Asd you say you haev not seen the art work - I have - its clearly taken from the specific mdoel they sell - as is now usually thee case and So easily lends it so
And someone could not have spent 2 mintues creating a coupe of formations to go woth that stuff - I do not believe that would haev cost more than they spent on art and text.
If you want to believe they care about balance you are not reading their own articles or posts - they don't care as they donlt see it as a important elemnt of the hobby - which for them is buying, making and paiting the models, then maybe messing about with them a bit.
BBAP wrote: ...I can also bring her as part of an Invisible deathstar so the whole unit gets HnR and can reroll charges if she walks...
Not true anymore. Only Celestine gets the reroll, now per new BRBFAQ.
Mr Morden wrote: ...I hate the current Wolfy mcWolf riding a wolf with a wolf sword version of the Spacec Wolves - byu your reasoning that means they should not be there? The entire Space Wolves fluff has gone for cool to (IMO) dire wolf.
Mr Morden wrote: Wraith Knights are fine and not OP / undercosted - hmm - really?? - what is you opinion on multiple Riptides, Eldar jet bikes - fair and balanced?- as in Fox News style Fair and balanced?
As in "play against them with a decent army and they're fine" balanced. These units are fine. If you're taking Battleforce armies in cack-hand Formations and whining because they roll you... I dunno what to tell you. Git gud, maybe.
Ah now you are twisting things - you were the one who said that GW would not spend any money on Sisters without a return
My position hasn't changed. Nothing has been twisted.
I showed that they had in fact spent money
You showed a cheesy sidebar story of the kind they chuck into all the splatbooks as an afterthought.
on multiple pieces of artwork and whatever your own opinion of the text - someone to write lots of words.
What you wanted was an investment of time and effort to retool the faction such that it can work as a top-tier 7th Edition army. What you got was a few pieces of fluff in splatbooks that were going to be written anyway. These books aren't about the Sisters; the Sisters are merely relevant to them, so whoever was writing them chucked a few sidebar stories in there and comissioned a few images. Now here you are trying to pretend that because GW sometimes remembers the Sisters exist, there's no reason they shouldn't make a significant investment of time and effort to produce new rules for them.
Nothing is being twisted. You're clutching at straws is what's happening.
I hate the current Wolfy mcWolf riding a wolf with a wolf sword version of the Spacec Wolves - byu your reasoning that means they should not be there?
My reasoning is that GW haven't made the effort to retool Sisters as a stand-alone faction because the potential for a return isn't there. How is what you or I dislike relevant to that in any way?
Asd you say you haev not seen the art work - I have - its clearly taken from the specific mdoel they sell - as is now usually thee case and So easily lends it so
So you think, what - that they made this piece of artwork to try and punt the model? Is that the only feasible explanation here? Did the artist maybe use the model as a reference for the picture?
What point are you trying to make here?
And someone could not have spent 2 mintues creating a coupe of formations to go woth that stuff - I do not believe that would haev cost more than they spent on art and text.
Depends how good you want them to be, I suppose. You seem to think you can chuck a usable Formation together in the time it takes to write a cacky sidebar story. I'd suggest that's not the case, and it's evidently not what GW does. Frankly if they're going to put out gak-ass nonsense I'd prefer they just not bother.
If you want to believe they care about balance you are not reading their own articles or posts - they don't care as they donlt see it as a important elemnt of the hobby - which for them is buying, making and paiting the models, then maybe messing about with them a bit.
I know from their AGM that they don't consider gamers an important sales demographic (or at least Tom Kirby didn't - he was all about the impulse buyers, or "collectors" as he calls them), but that doesn't mean they don't balance units against one another when designing the game. They evidently do, considering balanced armies hold up reasonably well against other balanced armies. gak-ass armies get rolled hard by balanced armies, which is fine - that's how it should be. If the game was poorly balanced then there'd be units which insta-win against everything. No such units exist.
inb4 Wraithknights/ Imperial Knights - If I can't ignore them, then my Claw-Morphs and Acolyte Hybrids will kill them. So will Invisible deathstars. So will Grav weapons.
inb4 Invisible deathstars - massively expensive, have almost no hope of winning missions against balanced armies that are played well, easy to pin down and chip to death, die like flies to D weapons.
inb4 D weapons - Go ahead and fire your D weapons at my 24 GSC squads or one of the 7 Rhinos in my Gladius. See if I care.
inb4 Gladius - Tough opponents for GSC but Scatbike Eldar, WarCon, and Invisible deathstars will smush them.
GW cares about balance. You don't think they do. That's fine. Doesn't change the fact that they do.
As in "play against them with a decent army and they're fine" balanced. These units are fine. If you're taking Battleforce armies in cack-hand Formations and whining because they roll you... I dunno what to tell you. Git gud, maybe.
That this is even a consideration should tell you that they're fundamentally broken. That an army can be considered "decent" or "not decent" should tell you that they're broken. That the game is in this state is all the evidence required that GW could not write a balanced game if you put a bolter to their head.
I generally agree with BBAP on all points above. It's not an accident that the top tier of long-popular armies with new Codices has decent external balance among themselves. If GW believed Sisters of Battle would justify the investment, they would already be in plastic today.
I, for one, look forward to Exodites, Hrud, and Kroot Mercs.
Psienesis wrote: That this is even a consideration should tell you that they're fundamentally broken.
You think the fact you can't beat certain armies with your Battleforce means the game is not balanced correctly? I disagree.
That an army can be considered "decent" or "not decent" should tell you that they're broken.
No, it **should** tell you that the army contains an inappropriate assortment of units/ Formations and is therefore not balanced. 40k is balanced around armies, not individual units; when designing your army you need to make sure you have a means to meet any threat the opponent can hold over you, and that your army is capable of covering its own weaknesses. The fact some Codexes can't manage this is a problem with those specific books, not the game system.
That the game is in this state is all the evidence required that GW could not write a balanced game if you put a bolter to their head.
"Balanced". You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
tneva82 wrote: That sounds pretty much what dark eldar were before their reboot...Which sold pretty well then.
In 5th Edition that was all you needed to succed 9/10ths of the time. Nowadays it's not enough - hence why nobody plays Sisters or DEldar anymore. Sisters need to be retooled for 7th if you want people to play them, which seems to be what's happening.
Dark eldars got new codex and entire line pretty much redone. Do the same with sisters and why you think it wouldn't succeed where de did?
You're looking at it wrong. You don't have to hire an artist onto staff; just go to deviantart or somewhere similar and commission one. A couple of pictures won't cost you more than a few hundred quid or so.
Couple formations and rules for special character costs like one or two hours(and that's giving them leeway for taking coffee break or two in between). How high hourly salary rule designers have? Hundreds of quids per hour?
tneva82 wrote: Dark eldars got new codex and entire line pretty much redone. Do the same with sisters and why you think it wouldn't succeed where de did?
Did DE succeed? Some people bought new armies, sure - but was it enough to offset the cost of development? That's what I'm asking.
Even supposing it did, for every such success story there's also a failure. Harlequins springs to mind immediately.
Couple formations and rules for special character costs like one or two hours(and that's giving them leeway for taking coffee break or two in between).
Yes, but doing it that way will produce a cack-handed Formation that's likely to be awful. If they're going to do that, I'd prefer they not bother.
How high hourly salary rule designers have? Hundreds of quids per hour?
Two hours they spend doing that is two hours they don't spend doing something else. If that two hours produces something that'll shift models - great, that's a productive expenditure. If it produces a gak-ass Formation for the Sisters of Battle? Not so much.
Does your boss often have you spend a quarter of your working day doing stuff you don't need to do? If not, why do you think that is?
Yes, but doing it that way will produce a cack-handed Formation that's likely to be awful. If they're going to do that, I'd prefer they not bother.
You're kidding, right? That's how every formation has been produced so far. In fact, if it took them two hours to come up with 99% of the legal formations, the developers belong nowhere near a game company.
I wonder how much effort it'd take to write a bot that'd detect when people say "40k is not balanced" in some fashion and post some kind of cliche alert.
(Before I get reported this is idle speculation, would violate forum rules against spamming, and none of us should try to do it)
GW's players policing themselves doesn't work at all because you've got Eldar players who won't acknowledge how crazy their base codex is.
I don't think that's really fair to say Martel732. I'm an Eldar player, started them in 6th. I knew wave serpent spam was a problem going in so I built my initial purchases around a themed army I wanted to do that didn't have any wave serpents. I still don't own any serpents. When 7th dropped I was the first to look at the new elder jetbike rules and point out to my local group how stupid it was that they let every jetbike take a special weapon. I wholeheartedly agree that the WK is undercosted (particularly the dual D-cannon variant) and I'm not a fan of our aspect host formations ability to be abused (spamming one particular type of aspect warrior in triplicate with +1 ws/bs is too good). The aspect host could be fun if it was a little bit more restrictive or if it just took away the +1 ws/bs so what you gain from it is the flexibility to field the aspect warriors you want without a CAD limiting you. I'd also say that while we have some ridiculous standout units I feel a lot of our codex is actually really well written (balanced on par with other strong 7th edition codexes, not necessarily others like orks or DE) and I feel our 7th edition dex has some of the most fun rules I've played with added to our force. Aspect warriors are a good example of this, the exarchs all come with a bonus special rule for either themselves or their unit if you pay the points to upgrade one and it helps the fluff of the unit come to life. This is a feature I'd love to see added to all the other codexes, special rules unique to a unit as opposed to trying to shoehorn many USR on a unit to try and make them feel unique.
Eldar are also not the only codex with ridiculous units/formations. Tau have them, riptides are still ridiculously good and there's formations that make them better for no cost whatsoever, SM formations can be devastating and depending on your force the necron Decurion can be effectively invincible with their layered saves. The problem isn't unique to Eldar, it's a player problem, regardless of what army they play. Definitely not every player, many of them are very cognitive of the cheese of their army and are ok tailoring down to fight a more casual force but yes there are some bad apples out there but the army you play doesn't dictate whether you are one or not.
I used Eldar as example. But I can go dig up posts from this site where people don't think the WK is busted as hell. Eldar are just the most glaring example. It's easier to convince people that gladius is broken than scatbikes/WK for some reason.
GW's players policing themselves doesn't work at all because you've got Eldar players who won't acknowledge how crazy their base codex is.
I've seen many, many more players whining about how Eldar players are all d***bags who won't admit their Codex is dumb than actual Eldar players not admitting their Codex is dumb. I'm sorry your playgroup is terrible but that's no reason to insult the rest of us.
I'm actually referring to many of the posters here.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BBAP wrote: "I can't play muh Blood Angels!" is not evidence that the game is imbalanced or that certain units are OP.
Okay, how about non-gladius non-deathstar vanilla marines. When you only have two viable builds out of the codex with the most models, that's imbalance.
Martel732 wrote: I used Eldar as example. But I can go dig up posts from this site where people don't think the WK is busted as hell. Eldar are just the most glaring example. It's easier to convince people that gladius is broken than scatbikes/WK for some reason.
If you want to use a subgroup as an example to strengthen a point then I'm fine with that. Maybe I read it wrong but my inference from your original post was that you were lumping all elder players into the same group when saying we don't accept arguments that our codex has some OP selections. I think if a reliable survey could be done then most Eldar players would agree with you about certain options in our codex being OP/undercosted.
All I'd ask is that when you mention a subgroup as an example you also clarify that not everyone belonging to the larger group also thinks that way, it's stereotyping and pushes this sentiment of odd 40k quasi-racism (oh you play elder? well that means your a WWAC d**** who plays an OP army). I've seen discrimination against players on this site before based entirely on their army choice or seen peoples ideas and opinions completely dismissed based on their army. Things like "you're not allowed to say the riptide is OP because you have the WK in your codex" is something I've actually read here. There are good, friendly Eldar players with valid opinions and who would get behind a nerf for many things in our codex just as I'm sure there are good players of any force that would be ok with having their codex nerfed for the sake of game balance. Lumping people into groups based on the army they play just isn't fair to the community as a whole, players should be judged based on their words and actions individually, not based on what army they play.
There are specific posters on here that have blatantly claimed the WK is fair as currently implemented. That was my point. Not all Eldar players, or even a majority. But the fact that we have to drag up the math on WKs and Riptides over and over and over and then there is still explaining away and handwringing is absurd. And why GW's "talk to your opponent" thing doesn't work. Because too many people either can't do math or willfully ignore it.
Martel732 wrote: Okay, how about non-gladius non-deathstar vanilla marines. When you only have two viable builds out of the codex with the most models, that's imbalance.
... in that Codex. It's imbalance in the Codex. In the Codex. Not the game. The Codex.
"But but but muh Codex is part of the game so imbalance"--- etc etc. It's part of the game. Not the whole game. Imbalance in a few units does not mean the game system is balanced improperly, it means those units are bad. Codex sucks? Codex is bad. Not game system. Can't possibly make an army that auto-wins against everything else = game system is balanced.
Martel732 wrote: Okay, how about non-gladius non-deathstar vanilla marines. When you only have two viable builds out of the codex with the most models, that's imbalance.
... in that Codex. It's imbalance in the Codex. In the Codex. Not the game. The Codex.
"But but but muh Codex is part of the game so imbalance"--- etc etc. It's part of the game. Not the whole game. Imbalance in a few units does not mean the game system is balanced improperly, it means those units are bad. Codex sucks? Codex is bad. Not game system. Can't possibly make an army that auto-wins against everything else = game system is balanced.
The game system makes cover useless for marines, but epic for models with poor armor. The game system allows massive tanks to be one shotted, but not any T6 MC. The Weapon skill chart. The absurd number of random rolls. Invisibility existing. The system is terrible.
Exactly. BBAP isn't wrong with he says that the OP (among others) needs to L2P; however, red's correct that it's not particularly helpful in remarking that the Emprah's running around with his butt in the breeze...
As for "balance,", if people want to say "40k isn't balanced", they probably need to define the word "balance", because it clearly means different things to different people. People used to say, "oh, Warmachine is so balanced", and that was a total crock of gak. Warmachine has never has perfect internal and external balance because there have always been glaring internal imbalances with every single edition of the game, but those imbalances would be glossed over by the fact that it was possible to be competitive with each faction, even if every one of those builds was rather specific in composition. That, and the OP-ness of Feats allowed for players to pull off lucky wins, regardless of actual tactics. Thus, if we say that Warmachine is "balanced", then have to conclude that 40k is also "balanced" - there are at least 4 factions which have similar external balance to remain top-level competitive with each other.
Finally, the WK is a clearly fair model; anybody who disagrees need to follow BBAP's advice, as quoted by red, in red, above.
Before going back to the actual topic I'd like to remind Martel that the 'ignore' button is probably a better solution than generalizing a troll's beliefs across all Eldar players.
So with the Legion list as precedent I'm getting back behind the possibility of Sororitas bikes with flamers/meltaguns on the front instead of bolters. Possibly with some kind of extra Hammer of Wrath hits and/or immunity to fire resulting from driving forward in the middle of a giant fireball.
JohnHwangDD wrote: As for "balance,", if people want to say "40k isn't balanced", they probably need to define the word "balance", because it clearly means different things to different people.
This is part of the problem, I think. People think "balanced" means "I can bring this zero-Synapse Tyranids army I found in the bin to a GT and I have as much chance of winning with it as I do with anything else". The game system requires you to make choices when designing an army list, and if you make sensible choices while doing that and play that army well, you can win. It's not easy to win against similarly tuned up armies - but it shouldn't be easy to win.
AnomanderRake wrote: So with the Legion list as precedent I'm getting back behind the possibility of Sororitas bikes with flamers/meltaguns on the front instead of bolters. Possibly with some kind of extra Hammer of Wrath hits and/or immunity to fire resulting from driving forward in the middle of a giant fireball.
Where exactly do SoB Bikes fit into an SoB army, though? The concept is cool, but I think Sisters cover the "fast Melta" base pretty comprehensively already.
JohnHwangDD wrote: As for "balance,", if people want to say "40k isn't balanced", they probably need to define the word "balance", because it clearly means different things to different people.
This is part of the problem, I think. People think "balanced" means "I can bring this zero-Synapse Tyranids army I found in the bin to a GT and I have as much chance of winning with it as I do with anything else".
In theory, if points were perfect, one could do that.
In practice, points are not even close to perfect, so it doesn't work.
JohnHwangDD wrote: In theory, if points were perfect, one could do that.
In practice, points are not even close to perfect, so it doesn't work.
Yeah, because there's no centralised system for valuing unit abilities. That'd produce a more consistent game and help obviate the problem of Blood Angels-style fail-books - but even there you'd get whining-ass Chapter Masters complaining about Zomgop units.
Where exactly do SoB Bikes fit into an SoB army, though? The concept is cool, but I think Sisters cover the "fast Melta" base pretty comprehensively already.
I would say that they don't fit. The dex has plenty of fast attack, plenty of close range fire power and even a very nice heavy support section with rending hvy bolters and the exorcist.
The weaknesses in the dex remain to be in hth. Repentia lack a delivery device that can get them into an assault before being obliterated just before they get to charge.
5++ and FnP for repentia all the time and an AoF that allows them to assault after disembarking from a transport will go a long ways towards making them viable. PenEngines getting the 4 wound dread upgrade as well as a 5++ and IWND might make them worth taking.
A formation that gives them all invuln re-rolls and a scout move before the game would be interesting.
Where exactly do SoB Bikes fit into an SoB army, though? The concept is cool, but I think Sisters cover the "fast Melta" base pretty comprehensively already.
I would say that they don't fit. The dex has plenty of fast attack, plenty of close range fire power and even a very nice heavy support section with rending hvy bolters and the exorcist.
The weaknesses in the dex remain to be in hth. Repentia lack a delivery device that can get them into an assault before being obliterated just before they get to charge.
5++ and FnP for repentia all the time and an AoF that allows them to assault after disembarking from a transport will go a long ways towards making them viable. PenEngines getting the 4 wound dread upgrade as well as a 5++ and IWND might make them worth taking.
A formation that gives them all invuln re-rolls and a scout move before the game would be interesting.
In trying to make them fit my thought processes keep leading me back to making said fire-bikes into an assault unit. The army has plenty of close-range firepower but if there were melta-bikes specifically for blowing open transports and then charging the passengers, or fire-bikes built to drive a wall of burning fuel through the middle of something with the attendant mass Hammer of Wrath I think they'd manage to be something other than a slight variation on Dominions.
See, cool as that sounds I just don't know that Sisters need that kind of unit. Murdering infantry and light mech has never been an issue for Sisters - what they're lacking is reliable long-range firepower, resilient mobility, and any way to avoid close combat beatsticks that doesn't involve throwing away vehicles (i.e. your only source of mobility).
JohnHwangDD wrote: In theory, if points were perfect, one could do that.
In practice, points are not even close to perfect, so it doesn't work.
Yeah, because there's no centralised system for valuing unit abilities. That'd produce a more consistent game and help obviate the problem of Blood Angels-style fail-books - but even there you'd get whining-ass Chapter Masters complaining about Zomgop units.
There is a good case for balancing C:SM against itself and then balancing everything else against C:SM. It's a floating base that works at the core, and ensures that, at the very worst, the game is only devolves to RPS games when no MEQs are involved. That is, SM, Necrons, Eldar & Tau would all go 50-50 against SM; however Eldar (easily) autowin Necrons autowin Tau (barely) autowin Eldar in true RPS fashion. If Orks & GSC also autowin Necrons, coinflip each other, but autolose Eldar & Tau, that would also be OK.
BBAP wrote: See, cool as that sounds I just don't know that Sisters need that kind of unit. Murdering infantry and light mech has never been an issue for Sisters - what they're lacking is reliable long-range firepower, resilient mobility, and any way to avoid close combat beatsticks that doesn't involve throwing away vehicles (i.e. your only source of mobility).
The easiest fix is to allow give Sisters a 3" Move to break out of CC. Then they can just step back & flame away....
Maybe... but we are talking about an Army of the Imperium. Just take someone who does it better... White Scars, Ravenguard, or Ravenwing. Why clutter up the codex with things that are poor imitations of something else. (Yes, the difference between T4 and T5 on a bike is huge... and important).
Why aren't there more close combat bikers in the game in general? Eldar bikers are JSJ-artillery, Corsair bikers are incredibly expensive kitted for melee, Marine/CSM bikers are generalists who mostly exist to be ablative wounds for the biker characters who do the actual killing...
The only proper bike-lancers around are Shining Spears (Deathwatch bikes, Marine command squads, and Black Knights exist, but they're all too expensive, much better at shooting, and/or unavailable in quantity), serious melee bikes could be a thing unique to the Sisters.
I guess bikes do make sense... most Cathedrals aren't on Death Worlds like Sanctuary 101. Bikes are a good mode of transport in a Hive City.
Still... I do want a Plastic Repressor Kit. Could be the reason that the announced Forgeworld Repressor hasn't actually been released yet.
I took some measurements and it'd be theoretically possible to do a pretty impressive multi-kit within the constraints of three frames on the current vehicle frame form factor. Rhino base, with sculpted extra armour panels, two different upper hulls (Repressor and the more general one), two turret configurations (Exorcist tubes, Immolator turret), and you'd probably have space left for a main turret/sponsons to make a Predator or Predator variant out of it, you'd end up with five possible builds and some weapon variants out of the one kit.
I took some measurements and it'd be theoretically possible to do a pretty impressive multi-kit within the constraints of three frames on the current vehicle frame form factor. Rhino base, with sculpted extra armour panels, two different upper hulls (Repressor and the more general one), two turret configurations (Exorcist tubes, Immolator turret), and you'd probably have space left for a main turret/sponsons to make a Predator or Predator variant out of it, you'd end up with five possible builds and some weapon variants out of the one kit.
I'd take it... specifically, I'd take about 11 of it.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The easiest fix is to allow give Sisters a 3" Move to break out of CC. Then they can just step back & flame away....
I've been saying that for ages - some kind of "jink" to avoid CC, like Spiders get against shooting. It'd save you having to throw vehicles away to avoid being charged.
They'd still have range issues, though. Some form of reliable long range shooting and mobility would be nice.
I'm also hoping for some kind of multi-melta armed assault shuttle (explained away as a converted transport to dodge the Decree Passive). Put the fear of fire into the heretics.
Indeed. It'd take some careful tweaking but it's definitely possible-- and they'd be similar, in my mind, to mounted knights, armed with power lances and chainswords and having a lot of attacks, better defense (T3(4) is actually useful against most close combat attacks, unlike against shooting attacks), and charge bonses. Sure, there's gonna be other units better at doing charges... but it's not the point to make something better than everything else, the point is to make something interesting that adds to the Sororitas army.
AnomanderRake wrote: serious melee bikes could be a thing unique to the Sisters.
Until Orks and their Warbikers get a facelift, that is. Although I guess they don't have lance type weaponry
Still, SoB bikes would be... interesting. I'd have to see how such a model would be sculpted without looking a bit weird or funky; I'm sure the talent over at Citadel would work something out though.
Melissia wrote: Indeed. It'd take some careful tweaking but it's definitely possible-- and they'd be similar, in my mind, to mounted knights, armed with power lances and chainswords and having a lot of attacks, better defense (T3(4) is actually useful against most close combat attacks, unlike against shooting attacks), and charge bonses
T4 is good enough for close combat units designed to kill "chaff" infantry, but Sisters do that just fine already.
Sure, there's gonna be other units better at doing charges... but it's not the point to make something better than everything else, the point is to make something interesting that adds to the Sororitas army.
I get that - but if the unit sucks, what's it adding to the Sororitas other than another unit that nobody will use? Sisters have enough of those already.
If we really want a close combat unit, why settle for a dinky one that can kill chaff infantry but nothing else? Why not a legitimate deathstar that puts the fear of Empra into everything?
Melissia wrote: Indeed. It'd take some careful tweaking but it's definitely possible-- and they'd be similar, in my mind, to mounted knights, armed with power lances and chainswords and having a lot of attacks, better defense (T3(4) is actually useful against most close combat attacks, unlike against shooting attacks), and charge bonses
T4 is good enough for close combat units designed to kill "chaff" infantry, but Sisters do that just fine already.
Sure, there's gonna be other units better at doing charges... but it's not the point to make something better than everything else, the point is to make something interesting that adds to the Sororitas army.
I get that - but if the unit sucks, what's it adding to the Sororitas other than another unit that nobody will use? Sisters have enough of those already.
If we really want a close combat unit, why settle for a dinky one that can kill chaff infantry but nothing else? Why not a legitimate deathstar that puts the fear of Empra into everything?
Shock units may be hard to put together in an environment where immunity to getting run down is the norm, true. Bigger lances, shields, maybe an oversized bike with a passenger to justify higher Toughness or extra Wounds/Attacks?
Personally, I'd like to see the book be split into three sub armies--the Witch Hunters, the Eclesiarchy, and the Arbites. I'd like enough variety between the three of them to allow people to go pure if they really, really wanted to.
I mean, the Inquisition could take Inquisitors and their retinue, Inquisitorial Sto--Vanguard, Assassins, etc.
The Ecclesiarchy is our good ole Sororitas backed up by up by priestly goodness, arco flagellents, etc.
And the Arbites...aren't Aribites supposed to be a more badass version of Judge Dredd? Lots of potential there.
I'd like to see the Sororitas buffed out a little, and their unique units--like the Seraphim--made even more unique. I don't want them to just be smaller, weaker versions of space marines.
I would also dearly like Celestians to ride cybernetic gothic style horse mounts. Just because I like the idea.
AnomanderRake wrote: Shock units may be hard to put together in an environment where immunity to getting run down is the norm, true. Bigger lances, shields, maybe an oversized bike with a passenger to justify higher Toughness or extra Wounds/Attacks?
I mean yeah, you could do that, but if we're wishlisting and we're insisting on a close combat unit then I want something scary. I don't want a Rough Riders or Shining Spears-style one and done unit that takes a wound off a Wraithknight and then dies. I want a proper hymn-singing, flaming-chainsword-wielding, cool-as-all-hell 350-point deathstar that not only fits in with the Sisters fluff-wise but makes sense in the context of the army; i.e. capable of drawing vast quantities of bullets away from your tanks and single-handedly keeping your other units out of combat because it kicks so much ass that nobody wants to go near it.
That's the kind of CC unit Sisters need if they're going to get one - something tough, deadly, and mobile. Either that or massive mobs of cheap, low-grade, high-Ld tarpit bubblewrap, like the Zealots they used to be able to take in 3rd/4th Edition, stuff you can push across the table en masse and not care if it dies. Your only option at the moment is Repentia, who are halfway between both concepts but fail to be either, or Allies, which are depressing.
I think you could make a pretty cool deathstar unit using Command Squad slots and Jump Packs, given the right options and buffs. I think if you're going to do Bikes you're better off taking advantage of their Relentlessness than trying to make them T4 CC units, considering they'll probably be competing with Dominions for Fast Attack slots, which means you're giving up MM Immolators and Meltaguns to fit them in.
... has anyone mentioned "Exorcist-Bikes" yet? Like Attack Bike-style things with an organ-launcher on the sidecar? That would be awesome.
JohnHwangDD wrote: As for "balance,", if people want to say "40k isn't balanced", they probably need to define the word "balance", because it clearly means different things to different people.
This is part of the problem, I think. People think "balanced" means "I can bring this zero-Synapse Tyranids army I found in the bin to a GT and I have as much chance of winning with it as I do with anything else".
In theory, if points were perfect, one could do that.
In practice, points are not even close to perfect, so it doesn't work.
Perfect balance is not a good thing to shoot for. If everything is exactly as good as everything else, why does it matter what you bring?
To get back to sister though, I think trying to shoehorn in CQC is the wrong way to go (although biker repentia would be awesome) I think the niche sisters have now that could be expanded is them as a shotgun army. Sisters function best in 12-18 inch range which is a rather thrilling place to be for a shooting army that sucks in combat. I think if sisters got something to get them into their effective range faster(but not instantly), keep them out of CC better(without eliminating the risk altogether), and blow serious gak up harder, they would be an excellent, unique, fun army to play. Make Sisters the most brutal shooting army in the game sub 12 inches and see what really good players can do with them.
So why do Sisters have to get shoehorned in to being cripplingly overspecialized with no variety, where other armies aren't? The Sisters concept allows for far more than just "shotgun AND NOTHING ELSE" like you're arguing for. Even Tau have more variety than that, and they have an excuse in the lore.
Melissia wrote: So why do Sisters have to get shoehorned in to being cripplingly overspecialized with no variety, where other armies aren't? The Sisters concept allows for far more than just "shotgun AND NOTHING ELSE" like you're arguing for. Even Tau have more variety than that, and they have an excuse in the lore.
Excellent example of a Straw man! You should teach a class!
What I'm arguing is that expanding the Sisters nasent niche of being Shotgun fighters with special rules, abilities, and even new weapons that enhance their effectiveness in the 2-18 inch range would be superior to improving their CQC ability in terms of the armies playstyle and theme. I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to do any close combat or any long range fire, I'm saying that there should be a significant portion of the army that thrives at close range and that portion, when built, supported, and played properly, should be EXTREMELY scary for other armies to deal with. It's not about gimping the rest of the army it's about buffing the shotgun part.
That said, assault is tied for the least interesting part of 40k with the psychic phase for me and I personally wouldn't mind much if Sisters assault ability went down to 'Celestine+1 Dedicated CC squad.' BUT I do understand other people feel differently and would want different things.
ERJAK wrote: What I'm arguing is that expanding the Sisters nasent niche
No, you're not. You're saying "stay in the box while I paint it to make the box shiny, pay no mind that everyone else gets to step out of their box every now and then". Your argument that close combat is the least interesting part of 40k is your problem, not mine, and clearly biases you against things that otherwise might fit in with the army.
Me, I still remember third edition, when Sisters had one of the best tarpit-type close combat unit in the game at the time, and weren't really all that bad in assault-- solidly mid-tier. Celestians actually hit more often in CC than Astartes did, and GW did them a serious disservice with the changes made later on, and Seraphim were excellent with hit and run tactics, shooting, charging, hit-and-running, then repeating-- in fact, Seraphim at the time were better at it than either Eldar faction.
Sisters of Battle have plenty of room for more close combat, both in lore and in gameplay, and should not be shoehorned in to a single playstyle with no alternatives like you want them to be-- they should have variety, and you should be able to field them in multiple interesting ways. "No CC units or ranged units, give them more shotguns" is what you're saying, to me, but that's just not very interesting.
I think the idea of keeping sisters as a shotgun army would be pretty neat. Some sort of "stay in the 12-18 inch range" of an army. A way you could do that and still keep them unique in the imperium armies would be giving them the eldar battle focus. Move, shoot, move away. But at the same time that wouldn't make much sense for sisters. They don't exactly retreat in battle.Maybe some form of innate grav-inhibitor drone? Where anyone charging them has a negative d3 to their charge range due to their intense faith or some gak.
All of that could be limited to only the shooting units as well. If they recieved any real cqc units, they would be able to be charged as normal. But I agree that some sort of repentia squad on bikes would be AMAZING.
ERJAK wrote: What I'm arguing is that expanding the Sisters nasent niche of being Shotgun fighters with special rules, abilities, and even new weapons that enhance their effectiveness in the 2-18 inch range would be superior to improving their CQC ability in terms of the armies playstyle and theme. I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to do any close combat or any long range fire, I'm saying that there should be a significant portion of the army that thrives at close range and that portion, when built, supported, and played properly, should be EXTREMELY scary for other armies to deal with. It's not about gimping the rest of the army it's about buffing the shotgun part.
Did you not see how many meltaguns you can pack into a Sisters army? I field my Sisters with 24 ignores cover, scouting in AV 13 transports that have fire points for every one of them. I would agree to buffing their AoF to usable every turn until they fail an AoF check, Simulacrum gives a re-roll though Other than a logical buff to AoF bringing them up to snuff with SM Chapter Tactics I don't see where they aren't already what you want to turn them into.
The Sisters real shortcoming is in their AoF mechanic. They already have the rules to make their existing units great at their given role (apart from their three stinker units...) Who doesn't want Retributors that could rend EVERY TURN without gobbling up every Faith Point the player gets throughout the game. If they can keep using the AoF till they fail the check, you could finally remove a lot of the book keeping by keeping a Faith token with the unit until they fail.
What I would do about their three stinker units.
1. Give Repentia a 5+ FnP base and change their AoF to allow them to charge in the same turn they disembark.
2. Give Pen Engines 4 wounds, IWND and Shrouded. CC hits granting additional attacks like they used too would be great, but if you gave me the rest I could say goodbye to them forever.
3. Celestians, the Dex's only real problem children. If and when the Sisters get a new Dex GW doesn't fix Celestians I will just continue to play a bunch of sisters with power swords grouped with a bunch with flamers as "counts as" Sisters of Silence. Personally I think they got every rule the Celestians needed to give the Sisters a good Elite unit that helps with CC and in the psychic phase. Can't ride in a Sisters transport, but they are at least aimed at where the Sisters weaknesses are.
If I could redesign the Celestians I would drop their bolters. Give them a Protectiva for a 4++ and Flaming Maces with rules as a power maul except they count as a hand flamer when issuing defensive fire. AoF for Celestians would grant their attacks the psi-shock rule during CC. Squad could be upgraded with a Superior who could upgrade to carry an Eviscerator. Squad could also upgrade one Celestian to a Hospitaller for FnP. Each Celestian squad on the table grants one dice to your pool during your OPPONENTS psychic phase.
I would love to give them infiltrate rule where they can only infiltrate under the usual rules but also only on to an objective. The idea being that they are shrine guardians who regularly defend places of worship. Just my personal favorite for them, I would be open to others, but they need to be aimed in the direction of fixing the Sisters major weaknesses. They suffer in the CC phase and in the Psychic phase. Buff their AoF and somehow address these weaknesses and they would be a force to be reckoned with.
Bikes would conflict with Dominions for FA slots, not good considering how good Doms are.
JohnHwangDD wrote: "Zealots"? What are those? Frateris Militia, perhaps?
They were a WD unit, if I remember right. A bunch of peasants with rusty pitchforks and "mob weapons" (shotguns with Gets Hot) led by a Priest. You could take them in stacks of 20 and they fulfilled essentially the same role as Conscripts do for the Guard.
ERJAK wrote: Perfect balance is not a good thing to shoot for. If everything is exactly as good as everything else, why does it matter what you bring?
It doesn't. That's the point. Under a system with perfect balance I can run my Penitengines and old-school metal Wulfen and Callidus Assassins, and all these other awesome models I love but can't use in "srs bzns" games that I want to win. I could beat face with an army that makes me happy, not just one that I've been forced to buy because it fits the meta. Sounds good to me.
Unfortunately GW seems to want to go the other way by removing "competitive" from the game, probably because it's cheaper to develop rules if you're not worried about competition or balance. They haven't succeeded yet, thankfully, but I reckon when they do they'll start dying in earnest, because who wants to play a game where there's nothing at stake? I know I don't.
Melissia wrote: Sisters of Battle have plenty of room for more close combat, both in lore and in gameplay, and should not be shoehorned in to a single playstyle with no alternatives like you want them to be-- they should have variety, and you should be able to field them in multiple interesting ways. "No CC units or ranged units, give them more shotguns" is what you're saying, to me, but that's just not very interesting.
Right, but I mean, nobody else gets that. Want to run AdMech and win? War Convocation for you. Eldar? Scatbikes and Wraithknights. Want to step out of the box and run Aspect Warriors that aren't Warp Spiders for a change? You can do it, but you're going to lose games. I'd rather have a specialised army that's **good** at its specialism than an army that tries to be everything and ends up sucking at it all. That's where Space Marines are right now. They are successful because they have a Formation that allows them to spam their sucky units so hard that the suck gets diluted to a workable level, but their units still suck.
The problem Sisters have isn't that they're not good at what they do - they're capable of putting out ferocious amounts of damage at 18" already. The problem is, that's not good enough to be competitive in a meta where vehicles - which Sisters rely upon for mobility - are a liability and everyone else can dunk you from 24-36 inches away. Long range shooting and resilient mobility would sort that out. You could probably fix it with close combat units, but they'd need to make sense in the context of the army if they were going to be useful. Judging by the number of melee HQs that sit neglected in the Space Marine Codex alone, just bringing back Praxedes of Ophelia wouldn't be enough.
For what it's worth I agree that that Sisters don't have a very engaging style of play (it's not boring or dull by any means but it's nowhere near as dynamic as, say, Scatbike Eldar or Genestealer Cults). Changing how the army plays to inject more variety and dynamism would require more than just a few new units or special rules here and there. You'd need to retool the whole Codex, and I doubt whatever we came up with would look anything like the Sisters I know from the fluff.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dracpanzer wrote: Bikes would conflict with Dominions for FA slots, not good considering how good Doms are.
+1
They'd need to be providing something really special to convince me to drop my Doms.
Also Sisters don't use Bikes. They use Jump Packs and tanks. Bikes are cool, and quite powerful in 7th, but Sisters don't use them. If we're going to turn them into T3 Marines then why bother wishlisting? Just use them as counts-as Codex:SM so they can be T4 and have Bikes.
Melissia wrote: Really, your argument is that EVERY single codex there's only ONE way to build.
It's not a question of army building. It's a meta-game thing; mobility is powerful as it always has been, but vehicles suck now so Infantry just aren't cutting it any more unless you're bringing a tonne of them. You either build an army that can cope with that meta or you get tuned up by armies that can. Sisters cope better than most, but they don't have the mobility or range to beat fast, hard-hitting armies.
That's an argument which not only you take seriously, but you endorse.
I actually don't. Read what I wrote about perfect balance in 40k.
If you want variety for the sake of having it, fine. Just know it's not a lack of variety that cripples Sisters, so it's not going to fix the book.
BBAP wrote: Right, but I mean, nobody else gets that.
Really, your argument is that EVERY single codex there's only ONE way to build. That's an argument which not only you take seriously, but you endorse.
After coming off an extremely long argument around this very point elsewhere I'd suggest you guys get what "way to build" means nailed down pretty quickly, anything afterwards is just shouting if you're working from different definitions.
JohnHwangDD wrote: "Zealots"? What are those? Frateris Militia, perhaps?
They were a WD unit, if I remember right. A bunch of peasants with rusty pitchforks and "mob weapons" (shotguns with Gets Hot) led by a Priest. You could take them in stacks of 20 and they fulfilled essentially the same role as Conscripts do for the Guard.
ERJAK wrote: Perfect balance is not a good thing to shoot for. If everything is exactly as good as everything else, why does it matter what you bring?
Um, perfect balance doesn't mean every unit does EXACTLY what every other unit does, or that every Troop unit across the board is specifically identical to every other Troops unit stat and rules wise. Balance comes from the fact that 1,500 pts. from ANY direction should equal 1,500 pts. from any OTHER direction. Granted, if you had 1,500 pts. of Chaos Land Raiders vs. 1,500 pts. of Grots there is a bit of a rules disparity preventing it from being an even match up, but that is why you have OTHER balancing tools like the FOC. Also, knowing armor is a possibility, you build around having at least a couple of options for dealing with it, so the chances of seeing such a one sided match is slim. Not none, but slim. Unbound makes that sort of match up possible, but that is why you had so much blowback from Unbound appearing in the first place. Perfect balance isn't achievable since there are too many variables in the game, but you can get pretty damn close, and that IS something to strive for.
My thought is that I just want to see plastics of what is coming in the codex, period. As long as at least the 3rd Ed. units are rendered in plastic, I'll be good.
Some people on here have no idea on what balance is. Balance is not everything being functionally identical. It's when every unit has a reasonable number of scenarios where their cost is justified.
ERJAK wrote: Perfect balance is not a good thing to shoot for. If everything is exactly as good as everything else, why does it matter what you bring?
Um, perfect balance doesn't mean every unit does EXACTLY what every other unit does, or that every Troop unit across the board is specifically identical to every other Troops unit stat and rules wise. Balance comes from the fact that 1,500 pts. from ANY direction should equal 1,500 pts. from any OTHER direction.
Correct. Balance means that once can choose to take X points of Tactical / Assault / Devastator units, and have equivalent chances of winning across the breadth of scenarios, assuming that one plays each unit correctly. That is, each choice averages a .500 overall win rate across the full range of opponents playing each of the various missions in turn. Where a unit might be weaker in one scenario, or against one opponent, it is comparably stronger in another scenario, against a different opponent. Strengths and weaknesses offset.
In such a situation, balance means that you play what you like, according to your personal playstyle, and it doesn't impact your ability to win.
In other news, apparently, we've been very good, because, at long last, we're finally getting the definitive Sisters model:
One can only imagine Melissa's delight at this coming to pass...
That said, want I want is a flyer and more importantly an assault transport, and really just give us the Land Raider Redeemer. It's perfect for the Sisters, it's got flamey and melta death and it's the perfect thing to ram down my opponent's throat when it's full of Repentia. Also a female tech-priestess would be nice since I went through the trouble of making my own.
ERJAK wrote: Perfect balance is not a good thing to shoot for. If everything is exactly as good as everything else, why does it matter what you bring?
Um, perfect balance doesn't mean every unit does EXACTLY what every other unit does, or that every Troop unit across the board is specifically identical to every other Troops unit stat and rules wise. Balance comes from the fact that 1,500 pts. from ANY direction should equal 1,500 pts. from any OTHER direction.
Correct. Balance means that once can choose to take X points of Tactical / Assault / Devastator units, and have equivalent chances of winning across the breadth of scenarios, assuming that one plays each unit correctly. That is, each choice averages a .500 overall win rate across the full range of opponents playing each of the various missions in turn. Where a unit might be weaker in one scenario, or against one opponent, it is comparably stronger in another scenario, against a different opponent. Strengths and weaknesses offset.
In such a situation, balance means that you play what you like, according to your personal playstyle, and it doesn't impact your ability to win.
This is such a ridiculous notion that I'm having a hard time expressing all the ways it doesn't make any sense. A big one is that it wouldn't stop the game from FEELING unfair, even if it was fair. Say you only have 3 opponents available to you and all 3 of them use strategies that are in the pool that have advantage over you, or you all play missions that your army is weaker in without doing so intentionally. You're still going to lose >50% of the time and you're still going to moan on forums about it. If you play someone who is simply better than you at the game, human psychology says you will blame one or both player's list before you ever acknowledge that it's your play and then you're back whining on the forums. Also, losing 50% of your games is going to make you feel as if your army is poor as the losses naturally crowd out the wins in your memory, again due to basic psychology and again, to the forums.
Creating custom missions becomes almost impossible, with that razors edge of balance something as simple as the number of objectives could tip the scale radically in one armies direction.
All armies would have to be the exact same level of difficulty to use properly, each army would have to have the exact same margin for error, if any army was even slightly more difficult to play it would get left in the dust; a relic for players who could have won with anything to handicap themselves with.
How could you possibly design a game where every strength is matched by an equivalent weakness when it's completely impossible to know how people are going to play? Games like League of legends and Dota spend huge amounts of money, thousands of man hours, and patch their games every few weeks and the best they can get to are a series of hard counters or a pool of slight overperformers. So go ahead, design that jetbike to be quick but fragile and lacking in killing power, if the playerbase decides that mobility is king, people are going to cry and moan about how OP it is until your ears bleed. So instead you make a unit that is very slow and pretty frail but shoots well, if the meta swings around to being all about gunlines now he's super OP. That's not even taking into account the fact that any 2 units are going to have entirely different curves on the skill-to-power ratio chart, the curve on something fast and fragile (like a reaver jetbike) will never be the same as something that sits back and shoots (Like a Leman Russ) How do you account for that kind of thing?
Now lets say you got a perfect system of balance, let's say you found a way to force everyone to play the exactly fair missions in the exactly fair set of games against exactly fair opponents and everyone realizes that you can play literally anything and win the exact same number of games on average, then what is even the point? If what you play doesn't impact your ability to win, then it doesn't matter what you bring. Your choice of army becomes largely irrelevant. If picking a specific unit, piece of wargear, or formation doesn't give you some kind of advantage then why bother even writing a list? You could show up at a tournament with a baggy full of bottle caps and plunk them on the table and have the exact same chance to win as anyone else.
ERJAK wrote: How could you possibly design a game where every strength is matched by an equivalent weakness when it's completely impossible to know how people are going to play?
I'd imagine you start by centralising the points values of things like inches moved per turn and strength of attack, then go from there, handicapping as necessary. It'd take serious investment (and a deep understanding of your own game system) at the start, but once it's done it's done forever and just needs tweaks.(FAQs, patches) from there on out. The job of the game system is to ensure that the rules are balanced enough that, with perfect play, anyone can win with whatever they bring.
You'll always have the zomgop whine brigade who think the universe is the problem, but that's not an excuse to neglect balance.
Just a heads up. This time around on the Made-to-Order are some Inquisition and Sisters Models. Particularly, there are a couple of priests and a Superior Seraphim with Power Sword.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Balance means that once can choose to take X points of Tactical / Assault / Devastator units, and have equivalent chances of winning across the breadth of scenarios, assuming that one plays each unit correctly. That is, each choice averages a .500 overall win rate across the full range of opponents playing each of the various missions in turn. Where a unit might be weaker in one scenario, or against one opponent, it is comparably stronger in another scenario, against a different opponent. Strengths and weaknesses offset.
In such a situation, balance means that you play what you like, according to your personal playstyle, and it doesn't impact your ability to win.
This is such a ridiculous notion that I'm having a hard time expressing all the ways it doesn't make any sense. A big one is that it wouldn't stop the game from FEELING unfair, even if it was fair. Say you only have 3 opponents available to you and all 3 of them use strategies that are in the pool that have advantage over you, or you all play missions that your army is weaker in without doing so intentionally. You're still going to lose >50% of the time and you're still going to moan on forums about it. If you play someone who is simply better than you at the game, human psychology says you will blame one or both player's list before you ever acknowledge that it's your play and then you're back whining on the forums. Also, losing 50% of your games is going to make you feel as if your army is poor as the losses naturally crowd out the wins in your memory, again due to basic psychology and again, to the forums.
Creating custom missions becomes almost impossible, with that razors edge of balance something as simple as the number of objectives could tip the scale radically in one armies direction.
All armies would have to be the exact same level of difficulty to use properly, each army would have to have the exact same margin for error, if any army was even slightly more difficult to play it would get left in the dust; a relic for players who could have won with anything to handicap themselves with.
How could you possibly design a game where every strength is matched by an equivalent weakness when it's completely impossible to know how people are going to play? Games like League of legends and Dota spend huge amounts of money, thousands of man hours, and patch their games every few weeks and the best they can get to are a series of hard counters or a pool of slight overperformers. So go ahead, design that jetbike to be quick but fragile and lacking in killing power, if the playerbase decides that mobility is king, people are going to cry and moan about how OP it is until your ears bleed. So instead you make a unit that is very slow and pretty frail but shoots well, if the meta swings around to being all about gunlines now he's super OP. That's not even taking into account the fact that any 2 units are going to have entirely different curves on the skill-to-power ratio chart, the curve on something fast and fragile (like a reaver jetbike) will never be the same as something that sits back and shoots (Like a Leman Russ) How do you account for that kind of thing?
Now lets say you got a perfect system of balance, let's say you found a way to force everyone to play the exactly fair missions in the exactly fair set of games against exactly fair opponents and everyone realizes that you can play literally anything and win the exact same number of games on average, then what is even the point? If what you play doesn't impact your ability to win, then it doesn't matter what you bring. Your choice of army becomes largely irrelevant. If picking a specific unit, piece of wargear, or formation doesn't give you some kind of advantage then why bother even writing a list? You could show up at a tournament with a baggy full of bottle caps and plunk them on the table and have the exact same chance to win as anyone else.
This is an awfully long-winded response that makes very little sense. Arguing that the feeling of unfairness is somehow worse than actual unfairness? That a small variance in power is worse than a large variance in power?
if what you play doesn't impact your ability to win, then games are won on skill.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Balance means that once can choose to take X points of Tactical / Assault / Devastator units, and have equivalent chances of winning across the breadth of scenarios, assuming that one plays each unit correctly. That is, each choice averages a .500 overall win rate across the full range of opponents playing each of the various missions in turn. Where a unit might be weaker in one scenario, or against one opponent, it is comparably stronger in another scenario, against a different opponent. Strengths and weaknesses offset.
In such a situation, balance means that you play what you like, according to your personal playstyle, and it doesn't impact your ability to win.
This is such a ridiculous notion that I'm having a hard time expressing all the ways it doesn't make any sense. A big one is that it wouldn't stop the game from FEELING unfair, even if it was fair. Say you only have 3 opponents available to you and all 3 of them use strategies that are in the pool that have advantage over you, or you all play missions that your army is weaker in without doing so intentionally. You're still going to lose >50% of the time and you're still going to moan on forums about it. If you play someone who is simply better than you at the game, human psychology says you will blame one or both player's list before you ever acknowledge that it's your play and then you're back whining on the forums. Also, losing 50% of your games is going to make you feel as if your army is poor as the losses naturally crowd out the wins in your memory, again due to basic psychology and again, to the forums.
Creating custom missions becomes almost impossible, with that razors edge of balance something as simple as the number of objectives could tip the scale radically in one armies direction.
All armies would have to be the exact same level of difficulty to use properly, each army would have to have the exact same margin for error, if any army was even slightly more difficult to play it would get left in the dust; a relic for players who could have won with anything to handicap themselves with.
How could you possibly design a game where every strength is matched by an equivalent weakness when it's completely impossible to know how people are going to play? Games like League of legends and Dota spend huge amounts of money, thousands of man hours, and patch their games every few weeks and the best they can get to are a series of hard counters or a pool of slight overperformers. So go ahead, design that jetbike to be quick but fragile and lacking in killing power, if the playerbase decides that mobility is king, people are going to cry and moan about how OP it is until your ears bleed. So instead you make a unit that is very slow and pretty frail but shoots well, if the meta swings around to being all about gunlines now he's super OP. That's not even taking into account the fact that any 2 units are going to have entirely different curves on the skill-to-power ratio chart, the curve on something fast and fragile (like a reaver jetbike) will never be the same as something that sits back and shoots (Like a Leman Russ) How do you account for that kind of thing?
Now lets say you got a perfect system of balance, let's say you found a way to force everyone to play the exactly fair missions in the exactly fair set of games against exactly fair opponents and everyone realizes that you can play literally anything and win the exact same number of games on average, then what is even the point? If what you play doesn't impact your ability to win, then it doesn't matter what you bring. Your choice of army becomes largely irrelevant. If picking a specific unit, piece of wargear, or formation doesn't give you some kind of advantage then why bother even writing a list? You could show up at a tournament with a baggy full of bottle caps and plunk them on the table and have the exact same chance to win as anyone else.
This is an awfully long-winded response that makes very little sense. Arguing that the feeling of unfairness is somehow worse than actual unfairness? That a small variance in power is worse than a large variance in power?
Obviously, dakka post formatting strikes again, and when he said,-
ERJAK wrote: This is such a ridiculous notion that I'm having a hard time expressing all the ways it doesn't make any sense.
-it was supposed to be about everything that FOLLOWED.
To move it back on what I want to see in the codex:
I'd like to see Sisters gain close-combat focused bikers-- think jousting knights, with power lances, stormshields, and chainswords or power swords.
I'd like to see Sisters gain additional tanks. In addition to having more options for the Exorcist (including a skyfire mode), I think Sisters deserve something along the lines of a tank with a boltcannon on it, for example.
I'd like to see a rework of Acts of Faith that doesn't limit acts of faith to particular units.
I'd like to see Sisters gain a flying transport that's a variant of the strikingly beautiful Aquila Lander, which would fit them very well.
I'd like to see Sisters gain more special and heavy weapons that are better than the standard weapons while staying true to the Bolter/Flamer/Melta standard they use-- melta missiles, torrent flamers, the aformentioned boltcannon, and so on.
I'd like to see Sisters gain a bolter-based sniper unit (preferably veterans, not initiates), because the stalker pattern boltgun is a thing and if sisters are going to be stuck in bolter/flamer/melta, they might as well use ALL of bolter/flamer/melta to their advantage.
And so on and so forth. I could go on, but I created two (2) fandexes in the past, so the amount of ideas in my head would take the entire thread to go through. There's so much that could be done with Sisters, GW has only scratched the surface of the concept.
I still have righteous "I told you so" feelings in my heart over th3 fact that I created the concept of the bolt cannon for sisters as a rotary high power bolt weapon well before gw did, and people were incredulous about it tyen.. but they accept ots existence now.
Melissia wrote: ...I think Sisters deserve something along the lines of a tank with a boltcannon on it, for example...
Went scanning through a variety of proposals both silly and serious on this front just for fun. I found (among other things) the supreme dakkamobile (Land Raider Avenger) off my build-your-own Land Raider thread (hull-mounted Avenger mega-bolter, six twin-linked heavy bolters in two sets of sponsons), the Salamanders fortress of BURNING (which is actually legal in 30k, take a Malcador Defender with Legion Crew and swap out all the heavy bolters to produce a 6-HP superheavy with seven S6 heavy flamers and a Demolisher cannon), and the easy/straightforward option of just borrowing the relic Predator with the flamestorm/blast multi-melta turret options.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote: I still have righteous "I told you so" feelings in my heart over th3 fact that I created the concept of the bolt cannon for sisters as a rotary high power bolt weapon well before gw did, and people were incredulous about it tyen.. but they accept ots existence now.
But that's neither here nor there.
When was this, out of curiosity? I'd thought the giant rotary bolter had been around since the start of Imperial Armour?
AnomanderRake wrote: When was this, out of curiosity? I'd thought the giant rotary bolter had been around since the start of Imperial Armour?
This was in fourth and fifth edition. At that time, the only bolt weapon larger than a heavy bolter was on a titan (the assault cannon which you're thinking of is not a bolt weapon).
Melissia wrote: This was in fourth and fifth edition. At that time, the only bolt weapon larger than a heavy bolter was on a titan (the assault cannon which you're thinking of is not a bolt weapon).
What is this new Rotary Bolt Cannon? The Soulreaper Cannon?
Melissia wrote: This was in fourth and fifth edition. At that time, the only bolt weapon larger than a heavy bolter was on a titan (the assault cannon which you're thinking of is not a bolt weapon).
What is this new Rotary Bolt Cannon? The Soulreaper Cannon?
There's two weapons with the name "boltcannon" at the moment, one on the new version of the Avenger strike fighter, and one utilized by the Legion Cybernetica on their Castellax robots. The Avenger one is a four barrel rotary arrangement.
There's two weapons with the name "boltcannon" at the moment, one on the new version of the Avenger strike fighter, and one utilized by the Legion Cybernetica on their Castellax robots. The Avenger one is a four barrel rotary arrangement.
Ah gotcha.
To be honest, I talked on and on about Orks needing a jet fighter smaller than the Fighta Bomma after the release of the DE Razorwing back in 5th, and guess what GW did a few months later?
I probably should lie about that one and said I campaigned on the internet for a plastic Ork Flyer (or Fast Skimmer back in those times) so that I can say I actually had influence over it. Oh well
AnomanderRake wrote: When was this, out of curiosity? I'd thought the giant rotary bolter had been around since the start of Imperial Armour?
This was in fourth and fifth edition. At that time, the only bolt weapon larger than a heavy bolter was on a titan (the assault cannon which you're thinking of is not a bolt weapon).
I was thinking of the one on the Stormlord (that's been around since before 4e Apocalypse, at least), but I just double-checked and it's actually the same one that comes on the Warhound.
There's two weapons with the name "boltcannon" at the moment, one on the new version of the Avenger strike fighter, and one utilized by the Legion Cybernetica on their Castellax robots. The Avenger one is a four barrel rotary arrangement.
Ah gotcha.
To be honest, I talked on and on about Orks needing a jet fighter smaller than the Fighta Bomma after the release of the DE Razorwing back in 5th, and guess what GW did a few months later?
I probably should lie about that one and said I campaigned on the internet for a plastic Ork Flyer (or Fast Skimmer back in those times) so that I can say I actually had influence over it. Oh well
Now if you campaign for a 40k-scale version of one of the Bommers from Epic/AI we'd be all set.
So, scanning through the most recent posts about Sisters over on BoLS, the Sisters codex is being printed in its entirety in Codex: Imperial Agents. That initially made me think they don't intend to change anything about them. Then I read this:
…this will not replace existing printed codexes for the Deathwatch or Grey Knights – this just means that, if you want to add a small strike force of Elite Space Marines to your Imperial army (perhaps requisitioned by an Inquisitor, or high ranking officer), this book makes it easy for you to do so.
That's a quote from GW, and it specifically didn't mention Sisters. I'll admit it's pretty thin, but it at least allows a slim sliver of hope Sisters will get some improved rules. One would think Sisters would at least get some sort of Decurion-style detachment, as everybody is getting them, and not giving one to Sisters would be a glaring omission. Plus, that ugly new Canoness mini is going to need some rules.
Speaking of Canoness Veridyan, it's impressive that GW was able to produce a mini that so accurately reproduces the cover of the 2nd ed codex, but I'm not sure the nostalgia value of it trumps the fact that the artwork wasn't that good in the first place, and the mini would just look silly on the tabletop. It's neither a dynamic pose, nor a particularly realistic one. I'd call the effort a near miss.
Melissia wrote: To move it back on what I want to see in the codex:
I'd like to see Sisters gain close-combat focused bikers-- think jousting knights, with power lances, stormshields, and chainswords or power swords.
I'd like to see Sisters gain additional tanks. In addition to having more options for the Exorcist (including a skyfire mode), I think Sisters deserve something along the lines of a tank with a boltcannon on it, for example.
I'd like to see a rework of Acts of Faith that doesn't limit acts of faith to particular units.
I'd like to see Sisters gain a flying transport that's a variant of the strikingly beautiful Aquila Lander, which would fit them very well.
I'd like to see Sisters gain more special and heavy weapons that are better than the standard weapons while staying true to the Bolter/Flamer/Melta standard they use-- melta missiles, torrent flamers, the aformentioned boltcannon, and so on.
I'd like to see Sisters gain a bolter-based sniper unit (preferably veterans, not initiates), because the stalker pattern boltgun is a thing and if sisters are going to be stuck in bolter/flamer/melta, they might as well use ALL of bolter/flamer/melta to their advantage.
And so on and so forth. I could go on, but I created two (2) fandexes in the past, so the amount of ideas in my head would take the entire thread to go through. There's so much that could be done with Sisters, GW has only scratched the surface of the concept.
Agreed - great post.
The Aquila is one the best flyer models they did in my opinion - love to see it as a uparmed proper Sisters transport
If Imperial Agents allows me to load up a Land Raider with a Priest and 19 Sisters I'll be very happy. I'll be even happier if the Sisters Codex allows me to do that!
Only BOLS is saying that. Everyone else is saying Jan/Feb for a full Sisters release... including Plastic infantry kits, 2-3 vehicle kits.
Heck... it'll probably be on the level with Grey Knights.
Grand.Master.Raziel wrote: So, scanning through the most recent posts about Sisters over on BoLS, the Sisters codex is being printed in its entirety in Codex: Imperial Agents. That initially made me think they don't intend to change anything about them. Then I read this:
BoLS is also..extremely unreliable..take everything they say with a metric ton of salt.
Grand.Master.Raziel wrote: So, scanning through the most recent posts about Sisters over on BoLS, the Sisters codex is being printed in its entirety in Codex: Imperial Agents. That initially made me think they don't intend to change anything about them. Then I read this:
BoLS is also..extremely unreliable..take everything they say with a metric ton of salt.
It would be great if it was but I agree it seems unlikely.
Grand.Master.Raziel wrote: So, scanning through the most recent posts about Sisters over on BoLS, the Sisters codex is being printed in its entirety in Codex: Imperial Agents. That initially made me think they don't intend to change anything about them. Then I read this:
BoLS is also..extremely unreliable..take everything they say with a metric ton of salt.
It would be great if it was but I agree it seems unlikely.
If there is an actual, new Sisters of Battle codex coming in the first quarter of 2017, why would GW actually print the current WD/Digital Codex the month before?
A scary thought has occurred to me. Some Sisters of Battle are popping up on the "Made to Order" GW page, and what if GW does reprint all what, six pages of the Codex in Imperial Agents? What if this is what GW thinks is the "new Sisters of Battle release"?
BoLS seems to be getting their information from the Warhammer Community page. I found this there:
Next week, they get much needed aid, in the form of Codex: Imperial Agents.
This is a book that compiles together loads of specialist forces that commonly operate alongside other armies within the Imperium – including agents from the Inquisition, Officio Assassinorum, Deathwatch, Grey Knights, Adepta Sororitas, Cult Mechanicus, Adeptus Astra Telepathica, Aeronautica Imperialis, and even the Legion of the Damned.
Much of this content is only available digitally at the moment, some of it is new, and much of it is updated.
Plus the aforementioned quote about GKs and Deathwatch not being new rules comes from there as well.
It seems strange that GW would release Imperial Agents with rules for the SoB, then release a SoB standalone a month or two later. Unless there's only rules for the base Sisters of Battle squad in Imperial Agents. This may be the case, because the one photo that has Sisters in it has them in the background, with other minis front-and-center. The Sisters are blurry, but they look like the existing minis. Could be bad news, or could mean they're holding off on showing new minis till they're specifically promoting the SoB book.
Melissia wrote: That quote doesn't say the entire Sisters codex is being reprinted in the book.
No it does not. Like I say, it could just be rules for a single squad. However, the whole current SoB dex wouldn't take very much space, and it's not like that book is going to have much other meat.
On the other hand, if GW has upgraded the Sisters rules and the Imperial Agents book has just the Battle Sisters squad, but with the new rules, it could act as a teaser for the full Sororitas release. I think that'd actually be pretty clever marketing on GW's part, assuming the rules for the Battle Sisters squad are any good.
Tamwulf wrote: If there is an actual, new Sisters of Battle codex coming in the first quarter of 2017, why would GW actually print the current WD/Digital Codex the month before?
A scary thought has occurred to me. Some Sisters of Battle are popping up on the "Made to Order" GW page, and what if GW does reprint all what, six pages of the Codex in Imperial Agents? What if this is what GW thinks is the "new Sisters of Battle release"?
There isn't ever going to be another "Codex: Sisters of Battle".
Codex: Imperial Agents replaces Codex: Sisters of Battle in its entirety. C:IA would be more accurately titled "Codex: Sisters of Battle with enough other stuff that you don't have to field any actual Sisters of Battle, because we know that Sisters don't sell on their own".
GW obviously has no faith in Sisters. That's why the most recent M2O has exactly ONE Sister of Battle model, against 2 Witchhunters and a half-dozen Ecclesiarch models. It's why IA also bundles rules for Custodes, GK, DW, Inquisition, and more!
GW obviously has no faith in Sisters. That's why the most recent M2O has exactly ONE Sister of Battle model, against 2 Witchhunters and a half-dozen Ecclesiarch models. It's why IA also bundles rules for Custodes, GK, DW, Inquisition, and more!
Or, the rumored plastics could be just around the corner, so there's no point in releasing the whole range in M2O.
Melissia wrote: That quote doesn't say the entire Sisters codex is being reprinted in the book.
No it does not. Like I say, it could just be rules for a single squad.
More likely, it will be one HQ and one squad, possibly one vehicle, just like GK are rumored to get an hq, terminators, and the dreadknight.
If I can bring dreadknights with my sisters easily..I'm so down. Some sort of scary close combat option that isn't a whole additional army sounds lovely.
JohnHwangDD wrote: If plastics are coming, then the entire range becomes unavailable.
Isn't that basically the case as is? There's almost nothing left on the webstore. I bet the molds have run their course at this point so they finally need to break out the new plastic molds.
JohnHwangDD wrote: If plastics are coming, then the entire range becomes unavailable.
Isn't that basically the case as is? There's almost nothing left on the webstore. I bet the molds have run their course at this point so they finally need to break out the new plastic molds.
Huh? The Sisters line was never particularly large, and as of this morning, all of the staples are still available.
Melissia wrote: I'd like to see Sisters gain close-combat focused bikers-- think jousting knights, with power lances, stormshields, and chainswords or power swords.
Would mechanical steeds be cool or lame?
JohnHwangDD wrote: Huh? The Sisters line was never particularly large, and as of this morning, all of the staples are still available.
Basic sisters are a staple (and absolutely required to have a legal army) and are out of stock in a bunch of place, including France.
JohnHwangDD wrote: There isn't ever going to be another "Codex: Sisters of Battle".
Codex: Imperial Agents replaces Codex: Sisters of Battle in its entirety. C:IA would be more accurately titled "Codex: Sisters of Battle with enough other stuff that you don't have to field any actual Sisters of Battle, because we know that Sisters don't sell on their own".
GW obviously has no faith in Sisters. That's why the most recent M2O has exactly ONE Sister of Battle model, against 2 Witchhunters and a half-dozen Ecclesiarch models. It's why IA also bundles rules for Custodes, GK, DW, Inquisition, and more!
pretre wrote: This 136-page full-colour Codex presents background and rules for a number of smaller Imperial factions, whose forces fight alongside other armies of the Emperor. Use the rules, datasheets, wargear and detachments included to add members of the following operatives to any army of the Imperium:
- A full army list for the Battle Sisters of the Adepta Sororitas
- Tech-Priest Enginseers and Servitors of the Adeptus Mechanicus
- Valkyries of the Aeronautica Imperialis
- Battle Psykers and Astropaths of the Astra Telepathica
- Priests of the Adeptus Ministorum
- Kill Teams and Corvus Blackstars of the Deathwatch
- Terminator Squads and Nemesis Dreadknights of the Grey Knights
- The Legion of the Damned
- Assassins of the Officio Assassinorum
- Inquisitors of the Inquisition
It's eerie how easy it is to predict how GW will treat Sisters, if you just turn the cynicism knob up to 11.
Of course, in that thread, I also predicted that the Sisters are going Failcrap resin instead of plastic:
JohnHwangDD wrote: The thing that people need to note is that the resin Cannoness is more than 50% more expensive than the current metal one. Obviously, the metal Sisters are grossly underpriced at $8/model, and should be something more like $13/model...
In that context, the upgrade from expensive metal to 5 "Finecast" resin models for $50 is a tremendous savings to the Customer.
Celestine appears to be gone - but you can take a Ministorum conclave for Redemptor Kyrinov! Or maybe a unit of Crusaders with their mighty 3-3-3-3 statline and a Storm Shield. CC? GW's got you covered.
Glad i already have my St Celestine. It hasn't come up on the Canadian site yet but from the UK site it seems the Immolator is back! Time to paint up that Dominion Squad I've had lying about.
Celestine is gone from the Imperial Agents codex, but she's still there in the still-valid Adepta Sororitas e-codex. So if you want to use her, use that. There's really sadly not any benefit to Sisters save for a forgettably weak formation rule (a single reroll of a 1 on a save per unit per game) for using the book, it's not a book meant for Sisters players, but for allying things in to other books.
Melissia wrote: (a single reroll of a 1 on a save per unit per game)
It's one unit once per game?! I thought it was the whole army all the time. That might've been worthwhile - not hugely cheesy, it's not quite as good as a TEQ save but it helps them survive longer outside their transports.
One unit once per game, though? I'll stick to the CAD I think.
No, the impression I got is each unit gets to reroll 1s once per game. Someone who has the codex actually in front of htem should confirm though once it's shipped. I could be wrong there's been several people saying different things about it.
I wonder what the tax will be? 80 Arco-Flagellants, maybe? 200 Repentia? I don't think GW have sold many of either so it'd give them an avenue to shift some stock.
There's reasonable bitterness, cynicism, and skepticism.. and then there's overblown hyperbole. Assuming you have to take a huge amount of units in a book that's all about smaller formations is kinda silly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's what hte person said:
In this section you will find a detachment that lets you take a single Ministorum priest, as well as a new detachment for the girls in armor called the “Vestal Task Force”. Which has the ability to give all units in the detachment the ability to reroll any saving throws of 1 once in a game. Awesome! You are forced to take a compulsory elite option, but it isn’t all that bad because GW gave the sisters access to Deathcult Assassins, Crusaders, and Arco-Flagellents.
The detachment includes a mandatory elite unit, said elite unit can include Arcos but doesn't HAVE to-- you can take Sororitas elites or other ones like DCAs and Crusaders. It's still kinda weak and certianly nowhere NEAR as powerful as the ones Space Marines have, of course. It might push Sisters to maybe be lower-mid-tier at best.
Melissia wrote: There's reasonable bitterness, cynicism, and skepticism.. and then there's overblown hyperbole. Assuming you have to take a huge amount of units in a book that's all about smaller formations is kinda silly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's what hte person said:
In this section you will find a detachment that lets you take a single Ministorum priest, as well as a new detachment for the girls in armor called the “Vestal Task Force”. Which has the ability to give all units in the detachment the ability to reroll any saving throws of 1 once in a game. Awesome! You are forced to take a compulsory elite option, but it isn’t all that bad because GW gave the sisters access to Deathcult Assassins, Crusaders, and Arco-Flagellents.
After scanning the uninspired (frequently effective, but unimaginative in spite of it) formations that make up Traitor Legions I wouldn't be that surprised.
Melissia wrote: There's reasonable bitterness, cynicism, and skepticism.. and then there's overblown hyperbole. Assuming you have to take a huge amount of units in a book that's all about smaller formations is kinda silly.
I may have been joking. Or maybe I wasn't. Fact still is there's an Arco-Flagellant tax on your once-per-game rerolls.
Didn't you say there was more scope for CC units in the Sisters book? Enjoy your Arco-Flagellants!
BBAP wrote: Fact still is there's an Arco-Flagellant tax on your once-per-game rerolls.
No, there isn't.
There is an *elite unit* tax. That is to say, you need to take at least one elite choice. Celestians would also work if you prefer to stay within the Sororitas, as would Repentia-- personally I'd go with Celestians because Repentia are in dire need of some method of assault after exiting a vehicle in order to be useful.
For feth's sake, I'm not even asking you to stop being bitter and cynical and skeptical. I'm asking you to look at reality as it actually is, rather than as a hyperbole. Yeah, I get it, this is a mediocre-at-best formation. I agree that it's lame. But knowingly spreading misinformation is unacceptable REGARDLESS.
adamsouza wrote: Can we have at least one Adpeta Sororitas thread that is positive ?
You want positivity? Fine.
A mech Sisters army built from the current Sisters Codex isn't that bad in competitive terms. The only reason it's not placing at GTs is because it has some hard counters, namely anything that can kill your army's transports out from under it before it can close into RF range and start chewing things up. It handles GSC fairly well, can bully Gladius players who are relying on Bikes and Grav Cannons to win the day, and if you pack it with TLMM Immos even Flyers aren't that much of an issue.
The fact this new book doesn't replace the old Codex is great - and who knows, there might be something you can do with the other factions that helps make up for the weaknesses in the current book and gives the Sisters a bit of a boost.
I'm still not pre-ordering it though. It's not for nothing that Sisters players complain so much.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote: For feth's sake, I'm not even asking you to stop being bitter and cynical and skeptical. I'm asking you to look at reality as it actually is, rather than as a hyperbole. Yeah, I get it, this is a mediocre-at-best formation. I agree that it's lame. But knowingly spreading misinformation is unacceptable REGARDLESS.
I'll put a smiley face at the end of my post next time I'm quipping, just so people know I don't actually think they'll force you to take 200 Repentia as a tax for your rerolls.
adamsouza wrote: I started this thread to get away from the same few people arguing about whether the codex will happen and how gak it will be.
You've stated your opinions on this ad nauseum.
Can we have at least one Adpeta Sororitas thread that is positive ?
To be fair its difficult be postive when you are constantly having crap poured on your head and then being told that "its all fine" - especially if those people happen to play Power Dexes.
Good things about the new CIA dex
There are the new Formations - I am happy that we can take a Inqusitor (or other IC?) and they are sanctified enough to have a Shield of Faith - can make soem nice fluff about that.
The other formation appears to allow save re-rolls - not clear if only armour or Shield of Faith as well and I assume that its not FNP. However it is something.
The new Canoness is cool - and has a least a single (apparently very weak) rule.
Thats about as positive as I can be given the k nown facts.
No, we're talking about Sisters of Battle, specifically, about wishlisting for what they could or should have.
So with that topic in mind, how does everyone feel Acts of Faith need to be?
I vastly preferred how they were in Codex: Witch Hunters, with you having a pool of points based on what units you picked ,and spending those points to use acts of faith depending on the size of your unit.
That system is a bit limited and weak in this edition of course, but it could easily be brought back in a stronger way, given that people are already having to keep track of psychic power points. Something similar to that but substantially different could work-- faith being more limited than psychic power, but also doesn't have to test for it and can't be opposed, perhaps?
I don't see what's wrong with just bringing back the old AoF mechanic, other than the fact nobody fields large units of Sisters in anger so you'd end up with half the powers being useless most of the time. It'd also give cacky units like Celestians some purpose again, and make the Canoness look a bit less lacklustre.
adamsouza wrote: Can we have at least one Adpeta Sororitas thread that is positive ?
I can think of several positive things:
1. Sisters haven't been Squatted.
2. Sisters got a new Canoness model
3. basic Sisters weren't really pulled from production.
4. basic Sisters are still metal
5. Immolator kit is back
6. Sisters are back in print under Imperial Agents.
As a Dogs of War player, all of that is pretty fantastic stuff. Dunno why people are bitching about any of it.
BBAP wrote: I don't see what's wrong with just bringing back the old AoF mechanic, other than the fact nobody fields large units of Sisters in anger so you'd end up with half the powers being useless most of the time
Weird... I think that the 5 Sister "Battle Sister Upgrade" pack is only $8 more than the 3 BS pack that it replaced. Do I have that right? 3 for $27 5 for $35
adamsouza wrote: Can we have at least one Adpeta Sororitas thread that is positive ?
We can have that when GW does something positive with the army instead of throwing them into a "random other stuff" book alongside Codex™: Valkyrie™ Assault™ Carrier™.
BBAP wrote: I don't see what's wrong with just bringing back the old AoF mechanic, other than the fact nobody fields large units of Sisters in anger so you'd end up with half the powers being useless most of the time
You answered your own question.
... with the inferrence that if fixed, the mechanic would be fine. Make big squads a reasonable investment or change it all to a roll-under/ Ld test mechanic. The old Acts were great and all squads having access to all Acts gave you flexibility.
Yeah... the only problem is that you never had enough faith points for an actual army... in an edition that didn't allow allies.
We'll see where sisters are after Imperial Agents... and then we'll see what the new year brings.
I hold out some hope... I'll be painting my metal sisters, buying and painting a few of the returning vehicles. Here's why I'm holding out hope.
As I mentioned earlier... Characters like Celestine were moved to Lord of War status in other books.. it makes sense that she would get similar treatment. I find it incredibly weird that she suddenly went "Last Chance to Buy", and also suddenly went to Sold Out. It is almost like someone thought better of closing out a model that will be obsolete and not in the most current version of the rules.
Second... the immolator's return makes me hopeful too. It has always been an extra sprue for the rhino and already in plastic. It doesn't make sense for it to have vanished from the store when the cost of the mold has already been paid for. Particularly since the Exorcist kit includes the Immolator sprue as well! Plus, this Immolator kit is well priced in comparison with the other available plastic kits.
Thirdly, the new Canoness character. GW clearly heard that people want it. It sold out in many areas within 10 minutes. Even before orders were open, GW announced that it would be made available as a Web Store Exclusive eventually. This shows GW that there is more demand for Sisters than they were likely expecting. (Then again, they seem to be metered in their releases... I can chat more about why I think that they have been doing this, but that is for another post.)
Finally, this whole Imperial Agents release seems to be a way to gauge interest in Sisters... between the "Made to Order" releases and redoing Sisters bundles. It is all advertizing for this line. The price of regular bolter sisters has come down somewhat (look at the 5 Bolters for $35 over what was once 3 for $27) and the prices for special weapons haven't increased. Hopefully, GW will see the interest in this release as increased sales.
No... I don't expect anyone else to be hopeful by these things. Feel free to think and feel what you will. I understand your cynicism and skepticism and know that it is truly justified by experience. I'll choose to be hopeful instead.
adamsouza wrote: Can we have at least one Adpeta Sororitas thread that is positive ?
We can have that when GW does something positive with the army instead of throwing them into a "random other stuff" book alongside Codex™: Valkyrie™ Assault™ Carrier™.
See it's actually worse than that since they didn't give the book it's own faction, nothing from the book that's isn't in the same faction as the valk already can start the game in it.
This is codex 'hey what's this thing way in the back here?' ' I don't know, take it if you want it.' 'Oh, no thanks.'
Anpu-adom wrote: Yeah... the only problem is that you never had enough faith points for an actual army... in an edition that didn't allow allies.
I dunno - at 1850pts it'd be a squeeze, but I never had that many "Faithful" units in my old Sisters list and I seemed to do okay. You don't have enough for a 3++ on everyone every turn - but you shouldn't have that anyway.
We'll see where sisters are after Imperial Agents...
Back in here, probably:
and then we'll see what the new year brings.
Finally, this whole Imperial Agents release seems to be a way to gauge interest in Sisters... between the "Made to Order" releases and redoing Sisters bundles. It is all advertizing for this line. The price of regular bolter sisters has come down somewhat (look at the 5 Bolters for $35 over what was once 3 for $27) and the prices for special weapons haven't increased.
I don't think it is. I think it's an attempt to consolidate all the minor Imperium factions into a single book, which may be the first step on the road to trimming down the number of full armies GW is writing Codexes for - or alternatively, it may provide an impetus for GW to start developing Sisters as a full army in their own right once again. Grey Knights too.
Either way, C:IA seems like another supplement aimed at Marines players to me, rather than an attempt to make Inquisition armies a legitimate choice in 40k.
Anpu-adom wrote: ...We'll see where sisters are after Imperial Agents...
In the exact same place, probably. BoLS posted scans of the Sisters' special rules page and the whole thing is just a copy-paste from the current book.
Sisters were never rumored to be coming out until 2017 and I could have sworn they said the Sisters stuff form this year is just a taste. It also makes no sense to release a 7th sisters dex so close to 8th.
Gamgee wrote: Sisters were never rumored to be coming out until 2017 and I could have sworn they said the Sisters stuff form this year is just a taste. It also makes no sense to release a 7th sisters dex so close to 8th.
There isn't going to be a codex. This is the last sisters release we'll see for 2-3 years if ever. They haven't even started working on models yet. The Magnus video was just a cruel joke.
Gamgee wrote: Sisters were never rumored to be coming out until 2017 and I could have sworn they said the Sisters stuff form this year is just a taste. It also makes no sense to release a 7th sisters dex so close to 8th.
There isn't going to be a codex. This is the last sisters release we'll see for 2-3 years if ever. They haven't even started working on models yet. The Magnus video was just a cruel joke.
I have to agree with this statement. These Sisters of Battle models have been out of production for years. Why would GW suddenly spend time, resources, and money on bringing them back into production and printing out their codex if they have a new line of plastic models and a new codex to be released within a couple months? It's not the first time GW has pulled a fast one on a Codex (Imperial Knight Titans comes to mind), but it would be a HUGE step back from the way GW has been operating for most of this year. GW would have to realize the backlash they would get for pulling such a move, considering their new foray into social media and actually starting to pay attention to what their player base says.
This 136-page full-colour Codex presents background and rules for a number of smaller Imperial factions, whose forces fight alongside other armies of the Emperor. Use the rules, datasheets, wargear and detachments included to add members of the following operatives to any army of the Imperium:
– A full army list for the Battle Sisters of the Adepta Sororitas – Tech-Priest Enginseers and Servitors of the Adeptus Mechanicus
– Valkyries of the Aeronautica Imperialis
– Battle Psykers and Astropaths of the Astra Telepathica
– Priests of the Adeptus Ministorum
– Kill Teams and Corvus Blackstars of the Deathwatch
– Terminator Squads and Nemesis Dreadknights of the Grey Knights
– The Legion of the Damned
– Assassins of the Officio Assassinorum
– Inquisitors of the Inquisition
So, full codex in print and the existing models back in boxes and in shops.
I'm happy about the book, not thrilled about the models.
About model pricing, GW can't keep GSC Acolytes on the shelves at $8 each for 8 point plastic models, so $8 for a metal sister isn't even that ridiculous any more.
About model pricing, GW can't keep GSC Acolytes on the shelves at $8 each for 8 point plastic models, so $8 for a metal sister isn't even that ridiculous any more.
With Acolytes you're paying £5/ $8 for brand new sculpts in fully poseable plastic kits, plus enough bits to cover all the options for a 5-model squad. With Sisters you get what you're given, which is a selection of ten year old sculpts in two-piece metal kits. They're fantastic models, don't get me wrong, but it's still pretty steep.
The GSC models are also backed up by a really strong Codex. Sisters, not so much.
This 136-page full-colour Codex presents background and rules for a number of smaller Imperial factions, whose forces fight alongside other armies of the Emperor. Use the rules, datasheets, wargear and detachments included to add members of the following operatives to any army of the Imperium:
– A full army list for the Battle Sisters of the Adepta Sororitas – Tech-Priest Enginseers and Servitors of the Adeptus Mechanicus
– Valkyries of the Aeronautica Imperialis
– Battle Psykers and Astropaths of the Astra Telepathica
– Priests of the Adeptus Ministorum
– Kill Teams and Corvus Blackstars of the Deathwatch
– Terminator Squads and Nemesis Dreadknights of the Grey Knights
– The Legion of the Damned
– Assassins of the Officio Assassinorum
– Inquisitors of the Inquisition
So, full codex in print and the existing models back in boxes and in shops.
I'm happy about the book, not thrilled about the models.
About model pricing, GW can't keep GSC Acolytes on the shelves at $8 each for 8 point plastic models, so $8 for a metal sister isn't even that ridiculous any more.
It also doesn't help that with Celestine gone there is NEVER a reason to buy or bring the most expensive group of models.
Seraphim were underwhelming before, without Celestine there is NEVER a reason to take them over dominions.
This 136-page full-colour Codex presents background and rules for a number of smaller Imperial factions, whose forces fight alongside other armies of the Emperor. Use the rules, datasheets, wargear and detachments included to add members of the following operatives to any army of the Imperium:
– A full army list for the Battle Sisters of the Adepta Sororitas – Tech-Priest Enginseers and Servitors of the Adeptus Mechanicus
– Valkyries of the Aeronautica Imperialis
– Battle Psykers and Astropaths of the Astra Telepathica
– Priests of the Adeptus Ministorum
– Kill Teams and Corvus Blackstars of the Deathwatch
– Terminator Squads and Nemesis Dreadknights of the Grey Knights
– The Legion of the Damned
– Assassins of the Officio Assassinorum
– Inquisitors of the Inquisition
So, full codex in print and the existing models back in boxes and in shops.
I'm happy about the book, not thrilled about the models.
About model pricing, GW can't keep GSC Acolytes on the shelves at $8 each for 8 point plastic models, so $8 for a metal sister isn't even that ridiculous any more.
It also doesn't help that with Celestine gone there is NEVER a reason to buy or bring the most expensive group of models.
Seraphim were underwhelming before, without Celestine there is NEVER a reason to take them over dominions.
I have to disagree. Seraphim bring 4 S3 shred templates for about 100 points. (Plus a few Bolt Pistols.) It's a little outdone by some other armies, sure, but what in the Sisters of Battle codex isn't?
Waaaghpower wrote: I have to disagree. Seraphim bring 4 S3 shred templates for about 100 points. (Plus a few Bolt Pistols.) It's a little outdone by some other armies, sure, but what in the Sisters of Battle codex isn't?
Dominions bring Scout, more vehicles, and special weapons that Ignore Cover once per game. Difficult to recommend Seraphim over that.
Waaaghpower wrote: I have to disagree. Seraphim bring 4 S3 shred templates for about 100 points. (Plus a few Bolt Pistols.) It's a little outdone by some other armies, sure, but what in the Sisters of Battle codex isn't?
Dominions bring Scout, more vehicles, and special weapons that Ignore Cover once per game. Difficult to recommend Seraphim over that.
You're also not always gonna have shred, with celestine gone it's only what 65-70% chance? Dominions you can take a laud hailer for 10 points and have multiple squads rerolling aof
I'm in the Dominion camp as well... REALLY don't like the metal Seraphim models.
It seems that the new decurion/composite detachment for sisters will allow them to automatically pass AOF and gives them ObSec. That's nice. Hopefully it is whole detachment has ObSec like the SM.
Really happy with the rumored formation for Exorcists... Bring 2, roll 2d6 take the highest for number of shots for both of them. It greatly increases the odds. By my math, you have an 86.1% chance of getting 3 or better shots! Much improved over the normal 66%.
Anpu-adom wrote: Weird...
I think that the 5 Sister "Battle Sister Upgrade" pack is only $8 more than the 3 BS pack that it replaced. Do I have that right?
3 for $27
5 for $35
3 for £10.75 versus 5 for £20 in the UK. So a bit more expensive now (+12%). I think you're just benefiting from the post-Brexit collapse of Sterling.
Mythantor wrote: so let me get this straight. The new sisters "Codex" is just a reprint with 1 of our 3 hq choices cut out?
What are you complaining about? Uriah Jacobus is still in there, and everyone knows the drunken old hobo with the shotgun is the iconic SoBHQ character!
Yeah... love the gender equity in the fact that the only all female army of the Imperium has NO female special characters and as many male characters as female characters.
This is a problem, GW.
Anpu-adom wrote: Yeah... love the gender equity in the fact that the only all female army of the Imperium has NO female special characters and as many male characters as female characters.
This is a problem, GW.
There's also the Imperial Guard, which is a very diverse organization that has plenty of women in it.
And it has a stripper-Commissar, an OOP Catachan with grenade launcher, and two female members of the Last Chancers.
Other than those four, all men.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Know what I'd like to see?
Anpu-adom wrote: Yeah... love the gender equity in the fact that the only all female army of the Imperium has NO female special characters and as many male characters as female characters.
This is a problem, GW.
There's also the Imperial Guard, which is a very diverse organization that has plenty of women in it.
And it has a stripper-Commissar, an OOP Catachan with grenade launcher, and two female members of the Last Chancers.
Other than those four, all men.
Not so. Cadian Guard are nearly all female. Same with Tallarn. You just can't tell because of the bulky, functional uniforms, unisex armoring, and service haircuts.
This is really an argument for boobplate, simply to make it clear to players like you which models are male, and which are female!
Anpu-adom wrote: Yeah... love the gender equity in the fact that the only all female army of the Imperium has NO female special characters and as many male characters as female characters.
This is a problem, GW.
There's also the Imperial Guard, which is a very diverse organization that has plenty of women in it.
And it has a stripper-Commissar, an OOP Catachan with grenade launcher, and two female members of the Last Chancers.
Other than those four, all men.
Not so. Cadian Guard are nearly all female. Same with Tallarn. You just can't tell because of the bulky, functional uniforms, unisex armoring, and service haircuts.
This is really an argument for boobplate, simply to make it clear to players like you which models are male, and which are female!
I appreciate the attempt at humor, but it's become very clear that Sisters of Battle will never receive their plastic models.
I'm just gonna quit 40k. Probably donate my models to some local store. Keep the sentimental conversions as art pieces.
There's no sense continuing to hold onto a game that will never give me what I need to enjoy it.
Other than a logical buff to 
