So, when do people think questions will be "answered" ("answered" in this case meaning some sort of response to silence the filthy peasants) and when will the questions be answered (answered in this case meaning cherry picked to answer only questions that they feel like answering)?
I'm going for "answered" Friday if the PBWU is late from its usual Thursday slot, and a week later for cherry-picked answers to the equivalent of "Carmen, if you were a RIFTS(TM) character, what OCC would you be? And you can't say Juicer you buff bastard!"
if you are referring to Carmen's attempted Suicide that was no longer personal or private when Kevin blasted it on the open internet, furthermore it is a very serious factor to consider when backing a project by the same person since such an action can effect the outcome of said project. also on a side note you have to remember that Carmen and his collaborators and anyone with access to that project controls, have access to your e-mail and address and other personal information, thankfully not your credit card info.
Certainly, as to being “no longer private,” you are right. As to being personal, you are 101% incorrect, the act at hand, is very personal thing.
Whether it is shared publically or not, should be at the sole discretions of the person experiencing it. While many have said, that it was inappropriate for Kevin Siembieda to make a remark on the event… It’s also easy to forget, that we must (heavy opinion) even take care in how we approach those remarks, based on our comments of them…
I’m not worried about an act, which I cannot confirm or deny as *proof* of anything. That makes no sense, since the act is technically still in question.
As others have said we are not even sure if the act itself is authentic. But if there is even a 1% chance that it actually occurred, I have to respect it and do my best to tread carefully. That is my choice.
What I think about, is why the act was publically remarked on in the RRT Kickstarter to begin with. *Speculation time!*
At this point, whether things have occurred or not occurred I’m of the strong believe that Palladium is running a looooong con. They are out of money and cannot complete the project. If I was in this position and I was evil. Their behavior, very much reflects what I would do.
It makes sense to not do the right thing and end RRT, to continue on with platitudes and the like because the longer it goes, no matter how much money each individual backer pitched in the less connected those backers will be to the project.
Most Backers don’t comment to much over at the RRT comments parade and if they do most only 3 or four times a year… Many admit, their disinterest in the project. A lot of Kickstarter backers reference getting (late) packages of Kick Starters they have forgot they backed! Worse others are the white knights of Palladium Books, who are willing to eat any of the poop that Palladium produces.
Gawd, I mean you all know the updates over there better than I do, and I’ve been following it a lot…
if you are referring to Carmen's attempted Suicide that was no longer personal or private when Kevin blasted it on the open internet, furthermore it is a very serious factor to consider when backing a project by the same person since such an action can effect the outcome of said project. also on a side note you have to remember that Carmen and his collaborators and anyone with access to that project controls, have access to your e-mail and address and other personal information, thankfully not your credit card info.
Certainly, as to being “no longer private,” you are right. As to being personal, you are 101% incorrect, the act at hand, is very personal thing.
Whether it is shared publically or not, should be at the sole discretions of the person experiencing it. While many have said, that it was inappropriate for Kevin Siembieda to make a remark on the event… It’s also easy to forget, that we must (heavy opinion) even take care in how we approach those remarks, based on our comments of them…
I’m not worried about an act, which I cannot confirm or deny as *proof* of anything. That makes no sense, since the act is technically still in question.
As others have said we are not even sure if the act itself is authentic. But if there is even a 1% chance that it actually occurred, I have to respect it and do my best to tread carefully. That is my choice.
What I think about, is why the act was publically remarked on in the RRT Kickstarter to begin with. *Speculation time!*
At this point, whether things have occurred or not occurred I’m of the strong believe that Palladium is running a looooong con. They are out of money and cannot complete the project. If I was in this position and I was evil. Their behavior, very much reflects what I would do.
It makes sense to not do the right thing and end RRT, to continue on with platitudes and the like because the longer it goes, no matter how much money each individual backer pitched in the less connected those backers will be to the project.
Most Backers don’t comment to much over at the RRT comments parade and if they do most only 3 or four times a year… Many admit, their disinterest in the project. A lot of Kickstarter backers reference getting (late) packages of Kick Starters they have forgot they backed! Worse others are the white knights of Palladium Books, who are willing to eat any of the poop that Palladium produces.
Gawd, I mean you all know the updates over there better than I do, and I’ve been following it a lot…
"Alex! Edit these in later… but, first draw my bath minion!"
After writing that, I forgot my point… But it made me laugh writing it so I win.
the thing is, it is still information that is tantamount for an investor to know, and trust me big time investors dig up everything, furthermore the thing that should worry everyone is you saw how Andrew Cooke acted now remember he and several others of probable like mindedness have access to our personal information, if that does not give you pause nothing will.
Different strokes for different folks... But the thing is Palladium is such an irrational master of absolute ineptitude, that asking a few well placed legit questions, will get the job done with a clean conscience... Such is the effort and trouble that distinguish decent people, from Palladium Books and their associates.
WithintheDungeon wrote: What I think about, is why the act was publically remarked on in the RRT Kickstarter to begin with. *Speculation time!*
I thought it was 'cuz Kevin cannot distinguish between his own personal life and his business. So it follows that he does not see the same for others.
Speaking of following, I've always followed Hanlon's Razor: :"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity", although I usually say incompetence rather than stupidity. And, in Kevin's case, lack of awareness.
I occasionally see small-company KS creators explain a delay with a personal emergency (saying more than "because of personal emergencies"), so I didn't react as negatively as others did to Kevin mentioning Carmen's suicide.
I'm sure others do not share the same view, but, since I want to know anything that might impact a project, I am definitely interested in any personal problems a creator might have,
So they've finally uploaded pictures of the painted miniatures on the KS page and seriously, I can't even believe how sloppily they did it. At least when the original painted uploaded them here, they were clear and brightly lit. You could see all the miniatures clearly. On the KS page...it's dark and out of focus...wtf
How do you botch up EVEN this????
Spoiler:
I mean, compare these pics to page 2 on this thread. And these are the ONLY pictures available on the KS page.
I like that they couldn't even be bothered to straighten the guns on half the minis to make at least LOOK like they were made from decent quality material.
Hey, I was happy he could show something besides renders!
But, yeah, it's been one amateurish mistake after another. Another visual mistake they made was the background of the game play. Don't use banners that distract the viewer from the game and are so busy that it's hard to see the game board!
Sining wrote: So they've finally uploaded pictures of the painted miniatures on the KS page and seriously, I can't even believe how sloppily they did it. At least when the original painted uploaded them here, they were clear and brightly lit. You could see all the miniatures clearly. On the KS page...it's dark and out of focus...wtf
How do you botch up EVEN this????
I mean, compare these pics to page 2 on this thread. And these are the ONLY pictures available on the KS page.
Honestly, with the polish the rest of the page had, and that (as far as I'm aware) the pics weren't on that page until today, I think it was a last minute, rushed attempt to show "hey guys, don't worry - this isn't a bunch of renders - we've got real product RIGHT HERE!!!!" and try to cut off any appearance that it is vaporware like RRT Wave 2.
Reminds me of that KS where people asked for a pic of a mini against a tape measure to show scale, so they posted a pic of a tape measure laying next to a mini...
I mean how hard is it to take a proper photo of a miniatures? I've taken amateur photos of my painted pics all the time and they're way better than that. Especially since you can just look at the pic immediately after taking it and saying 'nah, I can retake it'.
Instead, this was...good enough for them? They decided, heck I can't spare 2s to redo the picture. Better get that graphic up now.
WithintheDungeon wrote: Different strokes for different folks... But the thing is Palladium is such an irrational master of absolute ineptitude, that asking a few well placed legit questions, will get the job done with a clean conscience... Such is the effort and trouble that distinguish decent people, from Palladium Books and their associates.
Normally I'd agree if this was some random individual on the Internet or even someone like Wayne who's an employee off to the side; that's a very personal thing that shouldn't really be discussed by the general public who don't know any of the people or their families.
However, Carmen is coming to that general public with his hand out asking to be taken at his word that he's going to follow through. If Rogue Heroes is as small as we're supposed to believe, then his personal business can readily become fair game. Was Kevin an insane donkeycave for broadcasting details to the world? Absolutely; as one co-worker put it "so not only is he a terrible businessman, he's a terrible human being too." Now that it's out there though, it IS a pertinent fact that one of, if not THE, principals of the project is in treatment for mental illness (or at least should be; one doesn't recover from that deep-rooted of an issue in the short time that's passed...and if he isn't that's categorically worse).
What is their contingency plan if Carmen's healthcare professional says he has to stop working on the project? While I dislike thinking someone would be so reprehensible, that would be an awfully convenient "walk away" excuse that the project is on "indefinite hold" because a person's life is more important than a board game. While the latter part is true, it would fall under the "then he wasn't in a state to be taking people's money in the first place" which loops us back to it being highly relevant thanks to Kevin's insanely poor judgement and multi-year mishandling of an existing project since it would have never happened had PB not screwed up so royally as to produce that ire.
I don't even want to think about the possibility of PB lying about the incident; that prospect is too disgusting to put properly into words.
WithintheDungeon wrote: Different strokes for different folks... But the thing is Palladium is such an irrational master of absolute ineptitude, that asking a few well placed legit questions, will get the job done with a clean conscience... Such is the effort and trouble that distinguish decent people, from Palladium Books and their associates.
However, Carmen is coming to that general public with his hand out asking to be taken at his word that he's going to follow through. If Rogue Heroes is as small as we're supposed to believe, then his personal business can readily become fair game. Was Kevin an insane donkeycave for broadcasting details to the world? Absolutely; as one co-worker put it "so not only is he a terrible businessman, he's a terrible human being too." Now that it's out there though, it IS a pertinent fact that one of, if not THE, principals of the project is in treatment for mental illness (or at least should be; one doesn't recover from that deep-rooted of an issue in the short time that's passed...and if he isn't that's categorically worse).
Assuming, of course, it's not all a steaming load of crap.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ...oh, and from their video, I'm not buying that "millions" have played Rifts(c)(r)(tm).
But anyway, I think we should all order a copy so that we can battle against the nefarious forces of the "Coalitio". Maybe that's what they call themselves closer to the Mexican border?
@elizabeth The starting box has 20 miniatures, but we hope to a successful Kickstarter will have a final box count of 40 minatures -- 8 heroes and 32 Coalition troops (Dead Boys, Dog Boys, and Skelebots). See tomorrow's revealed stretch goals.
Hindsight is 20/20 but they probably should have led with *THAT* and increased the initial funding goal until an actual industry comparable board game was offered. It does them no good to put out an anemic half model count box with B&W rules (probably 2 column rpg style formating) and thin paper mats. I understand the need for stretch goals and the psychology behind funding early but I'm not sure it was the best course of action in this case.
I'm surprised frankly it hasn't funded. I'll admit I was a bit salty when the Rifts RPG funded so quickly and to the amount that it did but I suppose that was a testament to the long standing *GOOD* reputation of the PEG folks overcoming the bad association inherent in anything Palladium related. I chalked it up last year to folks just not caring about Robotech backers as long as they got their goodies and I still stand by that lack of gamer solidarity but it does seem that the message at least somewhat got through about just how shady this endeavor is. I still don't think any sizeable number of folks are staying away out of solidarity with Robotech backers but at least they seem to be looking out for their own well being.
warboss wrote: A tid bit from my last check of the comments...
Andrew Cooke Collaborator 22 minutes ago
@elizabeth The starting box has 20 miniatures, but we hope to a successful Kickstarter will have a final box count of 40 minatures -- 8 heroes and 32 Coalition troops (Dead Boys, Dog Boys, and Skelebots). See tomorrow's revealed stretch goals.
Hindsight is 20/20 but they probably should have led with *THAT* and increased the initial funding goal until an actual industry comparable board game was offered. It does them no good to put out an anemic half model count box with B&W rules (probably 2 column rpg style formating) and thin paper mats. I understand the need for stretch goals and the psychology behind funding early but I'm not sure it was the best course of action in this case.
I'm surprised frankly it hasn't funded. I'll admit I was a bit salty when the Rifts RPG funded so quickly and to the amount that it did but I suppose that was a testament to the long standing *GOOD* reputation of the PEG folks overcoming the bad association inherent in anything Palladium related. I chalked it up last year to folks just not caring about Robotech backers as long as they got their goodies and I still stand by that lack of gamer solidarity but it does seem that the message at least somewhat got through about just how shady this endeavor is. I still don't think any sizeable number of folks are staying away out of solidarity with Robotech backers but at least they seem to be looking out for their own well being.
Yeah, well, there's two facets to that.
First, as you said, PEG had some standing and are quite loved. So, there was not a whole lot of gak-stirring inflicted on that KS. I know I never even bothered to poke my head in the comments.
Two, PEG wasn't PB. RH absolutely is, and not only did they hide it badly, they hid it insultingly badly. Have you noticed they haven't even defended themselves against it? They just ignore it, because they know it's so fething transparent.
warboss wrote: A tid bit from my last check of the comments...
Andrew Cooke Collaborator 22 minutes ago
@elizabeth The starting box has 20 miniatures, but we hope to a successful Kickstarter will have a final box count of 40 minatures -- 8 heroes and 32 Coalition troops (Dead Boys, Dog Boys, and Skelebots). See tomorrow's revealed stretch goals.
Hindsight is 20/20 but they probably should have led with *THAT* and increased the initial funding goal until an actual industry comparable board game was offered. It does them no good to put out an anemic half model count box with B&W rules (probably 2 column rpg style formating) and thin paper mats. I understand the need for stretch goals and the psychology behind funding early but I'm not sure it was the best course of action in this case.
I'm surprised frankly it hasn't funded. I'll admit I was a bit salty when the Rifts RPG funded so quickly and to the amount that it did but I suppose that was a testament to the long standing *GOOD* reputation of the PEG folks overcoming the bad association inherent in anything Palladium related. I chalked it up last year to folks just not caring about Robotech backers as long as they got their goodies and I still stand by that lack of gamer solidarity but it does seem that the message at least somewhat got through about just how shady this endeavor is. I still don't think any sizeable number of folks are staying away out of solidarity with Robotech backers but at least they seem to be looking out for their own well being.
As painful as it is, I think this will eventually fund, though just barely - unless they really stick their foot in their mouth (and they do seem to be heading that way at every turn).
I don't trust the "extra mini's" comment - I very much doubt they had plans to increase the mini count originally for fear of what happened to RRT, but appear to be rushing to the error because of the funding slowdown. I think that if they could get it to about 25-30 minis (say, 5-6 heroes - you're not likely to run more than that in delving game at once - and 20 bad guys) that'd be the design sweet spot.
Stormonu wrote: As painful as it is, I think this will eventually fund, though just barely - unless they really stick their foot in their mouth (and they do seem to be heading that way at every turn).
I, for one, hope that it funds $1 over the goal, and not a penny more.
What would happen if it funds, and say 10k worth of people just withdraw their pledges and don't pay for them? Does KS still collect the money? Is Carmen even legally obliged to go through with the KS if after collecting payments, only 90k of 100k has been collected?
Sining wrote: What would happen if it funds, and say 10k worth of people just withdraw their pledges and don't pay for them? Does KS still collect the money? Is Carmen even legally obliged to go through with the KS if after collecting payments, only 90k of 100k has been collected?
If the KS *funds* KS attempts to collect the pledges. KS only gives the creator what KS collected. Great.
3. Problem: The cash didn’t come through
This is a hopefully rare but troubling problem. Stacy Davidson was seeking $56,000 for a video game project, and he hit his goal. But when Kickstarter ran the investors' credit cards, a few of the pledges turned out to be bogus, including one whopping $10,000 one. Kickstarter funds projects based on pledges, not actual cash collected, so that left Davidson with a significant shortfall to cover. But since completed Kickstarter campaigns can’t be reopened or added to, Davidson ended up asking for private donations to help fill in the gap.
Lesson learned: Don’t rest on your laurels just because you’ve hit your goal. Keep promoting your project until the time is up, no matter how far over goal you are.
As for obligations, they can only be "legally obtained" if you pay a lawyer enough money. Which is never the case, unless the lawyer will work for free. I only know of two cases where this happened, and, in both, the lawyer worked free because he was a backer. Search on the Hansfree KS project. The Asylum Bicycle card case, although the Attorney General received all the credit, if you can find the interview, it turns out the artist and a lawyer who backed the project did the work and handed it over to the AG. I remember someone on the Robotech KS who said he was going to do some sort of legal action, but he seems to have disappeared? If anyone can provide more information or an update, I'd appreciate it.
Merijeek wrote: So, when do people think questions will be "answered" ("answered" in this case meaning some sort of response to silence the filthy peasants) and when will the questions be answered (answered in this case meaning cherry picked to answer only questions that they feel like answering)?
It's hard to say. If I were them I'd really start counting the $ in regards to the people who are saying they are going to leave, if details aren't forthcoming. What is the biggest (and by that, I mean most annoying, because they don't want to divulge it) question over there? What is the biggest beef?
1) Who is manufacturing the miniatures?
2) The progress and outline of the campaign itself.
With those two things in mind as I look over the comments of the last 12-ish hours, by an estimate there should be at least $1500-$2K of funds which are by backers which have raised concerns and said either: not revealing the miniatures manufacture is tantamount to them likely withdrawing their pledge and/or so far as to the campaign... If it does not improve they will likely withdraw the pledge.
The bottom line is. RH won't reveal the miniature manufacture because they don't have it or they are planning to handle it direct with Palladium Books.... Panda was contacted by Wayne, can't remember where I saw that in regards to wave 2 of RRT ( if KS wasn't blowing smoke), but since that didn't get through seems unlikely they will be approached for RBG. If Kevin was not just blowing smoke (which is certainly possible). I think pledges need to start dropping in high number before they actually reveal anything...
In hindsight, we should have known that wasn't going to end as he predicted as he can't even capitalize the first word in a sentence, and his 'price for silence' was rather low.
I mean they'd have been stupid to have not just paid him off and ended that before it started.
As for this campaign?
It doesn't look good, and unless it overfunds by a ton, I can't see it being successfully delivered.
And then, if it does overfund by a ton, that would be another whole set of issues which would probably sink it too.
Speaking of reading the comments, it's evident that some backers want this KS to succeed, but not-Palladium isn't doing a good job with the campaign.
Sean O'Hayer about 15 hours ago
More add-ons then stretch goals... and the only stretch goal currently available is to add color to the rulebook, something that should be standard.
The longer I watch all of this happening, the less inclined I feel to keep my pledge. This KS feels like it wasn't thought through well...
I'll hang on as long as I can, hoping for things to improve.
Michael Caldwell about 14 hours ago
@tgmoore I could agree, to an extent, but it's not purely conjecture. As a project/program manager myself, if one of my staff committed a gaff like that in such a public way I would simply reassign them; they obviously don't have the temperament to perform in that specific role.
That gaff, added to the small yet numerous other concerns, is (to me) indicative of a)management issues b)disorganization and c)leadership issues.
I'm not poking at anyone. I want this to succeed because of a love for Rifts, something everyone here shares. I hope things do shape up; we need this not only to fund, but to follow through to project completion. We as backers can absolutely make or break this so it is important that we support it, but we need confidence in the creators. I think Carmen's vision is awesome, but he might need some more help.
@Pete well said.
Todd Ferrullo about 14 hours ago
I am not sure what is less professional, Andrew Cooke's comment about not wanting to answer the questions from $1 backers, Carmen deciding to bail on the comments on his KS before even two days have passed or the absurd excuses about not revealing the miniature manufacturer.
I am starting to lose what little faith I have in this project and I am unsure that I will retain my pledge unless things improve (as I expect many other folks are also considering).
Graham Bailey about 3 hours ago
@daquack I'm right there with you, I own all of the Rifts books from PB, and all of the new Savage Worlds stuff too. I've been playing & GM-ing Rifts for decades, and I was very excited by this project as I really wanted to get my hands on quality sculpted Rifts miniatures .However, I feel at the moment that the project isn't being managed in an open, respectful, transparent or respectful manner and this makes me fearful for a positive outcome for this game. Also, it's not great value for money in comparison with other, more successful Kickstarter campaigns. However, it's early days yet and it *may* gather steam, if the 'creators' get motivated to actually respond to concerns and smarten up their behaviour and responses on here. I'm still hopeful that they can deliver a quality product that I'm happy to play and own.
Iain Row 19 minutes ago
Well, here we are. I have no opinion either way on RRT, beyond the careful note I have taken of the concerns made very clear by certain backers. I am relieved to see that seems to have died down a bit, we have all seen it and we don't need to be reminded every 5 minutes.
What I have a problem with is the objective attributes of this KS compared to other miniatures based board / skirmish / dudes on a map games. - A black and white rulebook. What? Haven't seen one of them since the 90s - 20 miniatures, human size. What? Mythic Battles (ignore stretch goals) has packed 37 into their base game, 8 of which are epic monsters/gods. - A laminated paper gaming mat. What? I can only assume that this is essentially a Paizo flip mat product. These are terrible, they never lie flat, give bad glare in artificial light, and look cheap. - No indication of game mechanics. Levelling up? Equipment? The campaign mode? - No stretch goals. A colour rulebook is not a stretch goal, it is a minimum. Maybe Carmen expected this game to go like CMON games, where the funding is so fast that they sneak in parts upgrades and alternate sculpts in to soak up the first few $100k and the "real" stretch goals start coming in around $300k or more. In which case we could be in for a situation where the game isn't "finished" until funding has hit $160k or higher, and that is just not going to happen at this speed. - No reviews. All other games send advance copies to well-known reviewers like Rahdo, Undead Viking. Nothing here. - Beta rulebook. Not only not available, confirmed as not even going to be available at any point during the KS. That means it isn't written yet. - No manufacturer provided. Endure the Stars went out of their way to reassure backers that they had Ludofact on board, and their CEO even penned a long piece on how they planned to help this new company realise their vision. - No detailed component breakdown. Probably because it is not yet written. In fact, I highly doubt anything is ready even as a mock-up/prototype except the basic combat rules and a gang-fight scenario. - No promotion. Beasts of War did a legthy piece with the Myth guys about how to launch a successful KS in this new age. Carmen seems to have missed it. Mythic went on roadshows all around France, testing their game in FLGSs. Monolith did the same with Conan. A PB open house is not the same thing. Once again, this demonstrates Carmen has nothing to show anyone.
I strongly suspect that the only things in existence right now are some 3D renders, a handful of painted test sculpts from an unknown manufacturer (the same one used on RRT perhaps?) and the items Carmen showed in his photo. That is so far short of being a full game it is not even funny.
In his defence, I assume that is why he has put 2 years down for delivery. That is basically enough time for him to design the game and produce it. But that is the problem I have here...they are not showing us a product and asking for funds to help make it a reality. They are showing us an idea for a game from someone who has never made such a game in the past (he has written RPG sourcebooks and fiction...how is that even remotely like writing a board game? Unless this game turns out to be Rifts played with figures, which would be hilarious!)
I don't wish him or the company ill, I love Rifts and would love to back it. But right now, the creator and collaborators are asking us to place our money on complete trust. This is why the track record and the involvement of PB matters, and I really hope all the shillers and people who are going to call me a troll (who probably haven't read this far anyway) take this one point away from this post and concede IT MATTERS ONLY BECAUSE IT IS ALL WE HAVE TO GO ON.
I would be with you in telling all the RRT crowd to pipe down and keep it to their own project, and would have some sympathy for your slightly Putin-like interpretation of all criticism and questioning as a plot or conspiracy against your game, or "revenge", if the KS offering was a professional one. But to be quite honest I have never seen anything so amateurish outside of those hand-drawn ones that get $1
I am amazed it has gotten as much as it has with these issues, and I can only assume it is because of the love so many people have for Rifts. Which is a real shame if they get let down. PLEASE put these things right. Vampire Hunters had criticism, they cancelled and came back a year later with a manufacturer confirmed, a beta rulebook, a fully planned out path to all their expansions and a business plan.
I CANNOT recommend highly enough that Rogue heroes does the same, relaunch when you are ready or show us that you have more than you are letting us see right now. You need to look credible, if only because the only way people get massive amounts of money right now is courting the ebay flippers who treat this like a business. I don't like it any more than you do, but there is no doubt they pile in in large size for things like CMON knowing they will get delivered. They might be scum, but they are dispassionate and will pile in and fund this baby regardless of RRT revenge issues if they are confident they will get a product they can sell at a margin to Rifts superfans on the secondary market.
In hindsight, we should have known that wasn't going to end as he predicted as he can't even capitalize the first word in a sentence, and his 'price for silence' was rather low.
I mean they'd have been stupid to have not just paid him off and ended that before it started.
As for this campaign?
It doesn't look good, and unless it overfunds by a ton, I can't see it being successfully delivered.
And then, if it does overfund by a ton, that would be another whole set of issues which would probably sink it too.
Ugh.
That's because over at Palladium the glass is neither half full or half empty... It must be absolutely mind boiling being them... huh?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alpharius wrote: Plus, aside from the license fee, do we think Palladium gets a cut of everything here, and all future 'sales' (Heh!) too?
Steve Dubya and I tried to make sense of that on the Palladium Books forums... If you can make any sense of some of Carmen's responses You'll be the first.
As they are listed as Collaborators, I'm tempted to ask when Kevin and Wayne are on deck for communication duties, as clearly it won't take away from their busy schedule of not communicating on their own project.
Steve Dubya wrote: As they are listed as Collaborators, I'm tempted to ask when Kevin and Wayne are on deck for communication duties, as clearly it won't take away from their busy schedule of not communicating on their own project.
Are we voting on this cause I would like to vote 1,000 times. Please do it... Please please, please!
You know as I sit here contemplating Kevin's posting of Carmen's attempted suicide I can't help wondering if we will see this situation down the road.
the RBG project is funded, 2 years down the road, nothing to show for it, Carmen has a relapse and almost attempts to kill himself again Kevin says because of that Carmen needs to take time off form the RBG game to recuperate, the fan friends are gushing all over Carmen with hopes of him getting better and a small go fund me is started for him to help him with bills and such.
Meanwhile in another undelivered kickstarter corner you can here RRT backers saying we told you so
by the way noticed they changed the first stretch goal and judging by the stretch goals posted they are getting very nervous about funding, not too mention losing most of the money to the Government and KS.
me think the ship is sinking and its time to many the life rafts.
For those of you doing the work of informing potential backers about the real but hidden risks of this kickstarter, don't forget to calmly post the facts once in each update's comments. There is no real reason to post/rehash the details every 5 minutes in the general comments but a single reminder in each update is probably a good idea for the health of the community.
warboss wrote: For those of you doing the work of informing potential backers about the real but hidden risks of this kickstarter, don't forget to calmly post the facts once in each update's comments. There is no real reason to post/rehash the details every 5 minutes in the general comments but a single reminder in each update is probably a good idea for the health of the community.
Alas I was banned before the 1st. update showed but think the interested backers are doing enough now that the whole operation is under question. and something tells me the questions they will answer in the next update are going to be very cherry picked and they will lose some backers.
Lol, a white knight who visits dakka is definitely posting there as I just tried catching up and saw a Swordfist Buttwiper profile name. He's apparently not brave enough to post here because he won't have NMI or Wayne to wipe away all reasonable dissent/facts/discussion with red text and warnings when he's proven to be wrong like over on the Megaversal forums or facebook.
warboss wrote: Lol, a white knight who visits dakka is definitely posting there as I just tried catching up and saw a Swordfist Buttwiper profile name. He's apparently not brave enough to post here because he won't have NMI or Wayne to wipe away all reasonable dissent/facts/discussion with red text and warnings when he's proven to be wrong like over on the Megaversal forums or facebook.
did you see what his cost analysis was? he honestly thinks that project will make that much in the last day? he is seriously high on something, me i'm thinking the project will go from $80-90K when all is said and done. hes expecting last minute push, problem is he fails to realize those last minute pushes are for stretch goals worthy of getting, this project has none.
warboss wrote: Lol, a white knight who visits dakka is definitely posting there as I just tried catching up and saw a Swordfist Buttwiper profile name. He's apparently not brave enough to post here because he won't have NMI or Wayne to wipe away all reasonable dissent/facts/discussion with red text and warnings when he's proven to be wrong like over on the Megaversal forums or facebook.
In the spirit of having stones... I've entered the fray.
Also I've started thread over at Kicksnarker g+ Here is the link:https://plus.google.com/communities/117630024819014429962
If you post a question over there in my topic, such as you're not participating in the KS... If It passes my "morality" smell test I will post it on the Rifts Board Game Kickstarter. If you don't know what a morality smell test is google it (I'd be surprised to know myself).
You may post it here, but even though this thread is growing on me like a fungus among us (and I like it more each day) I will not post the question.
This is also my official commitment to back the project if the principle satisfies my needs, my needs are few and I have my doubts they will be capable... But if they do, I will back it!
Steve Dubya and I tried to make sense of that on the Palladium Books forums... If you can make any sense of some of Carmen's responses You'll be the first.
warboss wrote: Lol, a white knight who visits dakka is definitely posting there as I just tried catching up and saw a Swordfist Buttwiper profile name. He's apparently not brave enough to post here because he won't have NMI to wipe away all reasonable dissent/facts/discussion with red text and warnings when he's proven to be wrong.
I give it 50/50 that hes fake white knighting, since his earlier posts were under a different name and were more critical, and then he went into Andrew Dice Clay mode for a while. However it REALLY is hard to tell, given just how fething stupid Palladium fanboys are. If you criticize anything you're a "bully" or "meanie", which is pretty funny to hear from a grown man. Kevin Siembieda has always attracted a particularly unhinged crowd (I guess that's why every book has the "disclaimer" that magic and monsters arent real), so it really is hard to tell.
That's what's extra funny is that the Palladium end is gagged because if Wayne or Kevin put on their six shooters and come in to 'straighten the towering inferno out' Steve McQueen style they will get inundated with so many Robotech questions that they'll have basically crap their collective pants and run back to the Palladium submarine and wish they'd just kept their mouthes shut.
I can imagine Kevin and Wayne both doubled over from stress ulcers that they can't come in both guns blazing and start blasting people.
I feel for Carmen because Palladium is forcing him into the kickstarter because licensing is expiring and he's unprepared. But also Carmen could have done research into ANY board game project to know what is expected rather than listen to Palladium's two decades out of touch advice.
I'm guessing the black and white rulebook was going to be printed on Palladium's standard... What was it? A wax press printer than Kevin is faster at using than a computer? I can't remember what archaic printer Palladium uses and declares that old, broke down, two column rule books is what Palladium fans want because they can't handle modernization in rulebook design.
Robotech's disaster may be blamed but it comes down to Carmen hanging out with Palladium too much and not realizing it's not 1993 anymore. Palladium tries to pretend digital photography is hard as well. Hey, we'll get pictures up as soon as the pics get back from the Fox Photo Booth! Kevin is driving across town to pick them up now!
Carmen should have done his homework, simple as that. Should have looked at what other projects were doing. He's been working on this for anywhere from 5-10 years or something? During that time he couldn't look at Kickstarter and go hmmm, what is this Dark Souls boardgame?
You'd think the last game the guy opened was Panzer Blitz! by Avalon Hill and thinking, "Whoah! I can do better than this!" Only what they're offering is not much better I can promise you Panzer Blitz! is playable while gRifts rules are apparently nebulous at best.
I'm not completely trying to kick Rogue Heroes in the teeth but there's SO MUCH basic research they should have done. As is they seemed to think RIFTS! and people would just throw hundreds of thousands of dollars at them with no questions at all. Four years ago Kickstarter was new and exciting. In those four years a LOT of people have been ripped off by a lot of projects and people know the questions to ask. Questions Rogue Heroes was completely oblivious that they'd have to answer. Or they simply forget that you can not communicate or use obfuscated platitudes until AFTER you have the money.
Like I said, Robotech will get the blame, but this is totally a bungled Palladium/Rogue Heroes deal as they are showing they have ideas, but no plan and want the money to start figuring out the plan because Palladium is telling them to pass fecal matter or get off the pot. Like usual, the real villain is Kevin Siembieda treating business as business and friendship as a commodity he can use in business.
Steve Dubya and I tried to make sense of that on the Palladium Books forums... If you can make any sense of some of Carmen's responses You'll be the first.
FYI: Carmen doesn't understand that cut and percentage.... represent the same idea!
Man, also on the thread ... *on PB's own site* 55% said they wouldn't back a board game and they still went through with the KS?
Double Ugh
Let's be fair though... Palladium's metric for success only goes to 98%... so 55% of that, is much... more oh! wait... No, it is even worse isn't it...
I agree with you, it's a bad situation for Carmen. He is being forced to do this before fully prepared and it seems like he has given in to pressure from Palladium to let them handle a lot, if not nearly all, of the details just because he's stuck.
Perhaps Kevin offered his "help", because he has so much "experience" and is such a "great friend". 'Use the warehouse, set up another corp that I will handle, let me run the KS, etc.'
Carmen is losing control of this.
I feel bad for him. We all know what it is like to step up to something new and big, look for guidance from experienced hands and get all sorts of meddling and bad advice in return. Carmen should have chosen better mentors. He shouldn't be adopting the PB customer relations method of ignoring anything other than rainbows and sunshine, or letting his staff/partners insult financial supporters.
Perhaps easier said than done, but as I had told him previously, this is all on him, his decisions, his responsibility. Kevin isn't going to be there to clean up the mess, Kevin only makes messes.
n815e wrote: I agree with you, it's a bad situation for Carmen. He is being forced to do this before fully prepared and it seems like he has given in to pressure from Palladium to let them handle a lot, if not nearly all, of the details just because he's stuck.
Perhaps Kevin offered his "help", because he has so much "experience" and is such a "great friend". 'Use the warehouse, set up another corp that I will handle, let me run the KS, etc.'
Carmen is losing control of this.
I feel bad for him. We all know what it is like to step up to something new and big, look for guidance from experienced hands and get all sorts of meddling and bad advice in return. Carmen should have chosen better mentors. He shouldn't be adapting the PB customer relations method of ignoring anything other than rainbows and sunshine, or letting his staff/partners insult financial supporters.
Perhaps easier said than done, but as I had told him previously, this is all on him, his decisions, his responsibility. Kevin isn't going to be there to clean up the mess, Kevin only makes messes.
Kevin sees this situation as a win win for him, he has nothing to lose and everything to gain, its not his neck on the line, nor is it his reputation on the line it is Carmen's and only Carmen's and Carmen can't say a darn thing cause of those pesky NDA's.
also someone might want to let Arete know that i may be the reason he is not posting, according to someone who claims to be in contact with Carmen:
I was talking to Carmen in person at the time through messenger
trust me you got into his head he wont respond to anyone on that page at this point
Either Kevin is a puppeteer... or totally inept... You guys switch your theories, like fishwives at the butchers table... Glad I'm in the right place. I thought I was the only one.
Either Kevin is a puppeteer... or totally inept... You guys switch your theories, like fishwives at the butchers table... Glad I'm in the right place. I thought I was the only one.
I haven't been following this much but wow, that comments page...
I feel bad for Carmen too. It's clear he loves the game/IP/whatever and wants to make a cool miniatures game for it, but he's probably limited by what PB will let him do and had to make it a rush job I guess if the license is about to expire. I think this will still fund though, it'll trickle it's way up unless there's a huge mass exodus.
Personally I think they would have had much better luck sticking with metal or resin minis and doing a skirmish game or warmachine-sized battle game, rather than the boxed game route. Then they could have had everything produced domestically and much lower funding goals. Then if it's successful and they really wanted a board game, come back for round 2 after everything is delivered with boxed game that's fully compatible with the minis from the first campaign.
Necros wrote: I haven't been following this much but wow, that comments page...
I feel bad for Carmen too. It's clear he loves the game/IP/whatever and wants to make a cool miniatures game for it, but he's probably limited by what PB will let him do and had to make it a rush job I guess if the license is about to expire. I think this will still fund though, it'll trickle it's way up unless there's a huge mass exodus.
Personally I think they would have had much better luck sticking with metal or resin minis and doing a skirmish game or warmachine-sized battle game, rather than the boxed game route. Then they could have had everything produced domestically and much lower funding goals. Then if it's successful and they really wanted a board game, come back for round 2 after everything is delivered with boxed game that's fully compatible with the minis from the first campaign.
Well, the problem is, say Carmen collect $100K on this project, IRS takes a bite, then KS takes a bite, Amazon (or whoever is collecting the monies) takes a bite, then Carmen has to pay Kevin for the Rifts books and such that sold on the add-ons then he has to pay to renew the IP license and after all that me thinks Carmen will be left with very little if any monies. so like I said carmen is better off if this project does not get funded.
TwoGunBob wrote: I'll be curious how Kickstarter handles this one. Given their penchant for siding with creators they'll likely slap Drew on thie wrist, tell him to behave, and ban the guy called out for his bid.
well you know they will delete the post but it has been screenshotted and it could cause a serious backlash for KS if they do nothing about it, imagine the press, project collaborator releases private information about a backer and kickstarter does nothing about it but delete the incriminating evidence
meanwhile what Andrew just did might have killed the kickstarter anyway, some new voice I never saw before are speaking up now and calling him on that.
Either Kevin is a puppeteer... or totally inept... You guys switch your theories, like fishwives at the butchers table... Glad I'm in the right place. I thought I was the only one.
I view him as both. He's a hustler who has cultivated a small group of saps, including Carmen who apparently has mental health issues which Kevin decided to make public to misdirect blame for the RRT mismanagement. At the same time, he's demonstrably crappy at business, game design, production... you name it. Palladium is constantly on the verge of insolvency, bailed out only by the members of his bizarre cult of personality.
Exactly, if anything, for Kevin/Palladium this is basically a litmus test to see if his sorry carcass can come back to Kickstarter and start rolling out projects for books, Heroes Unlimited coasters, D-Bee keychains, etc. The Savage Worlds KS wet Kevin's appetite for more sweet, sweet obligation free Kickstarter money and he's using Carmen to see how much brand damage Robotech really caused him.
To Kevin, I think he's seeing it as still actively hostile. People are asking questions, real questions that can't be dispelled as Robotech haters begone! People want a game plan, not to finance a DREAM that Carmen has apparently spent more time doing the dreaming portion and not doing the business portion. His plants that are all throwing rainbows and bobbing their collective heads and saying 'JUICY' and 'Mouth Wateringly AWESOME' aren't gaining any traction and really standing out from general backers in much the same way Robotech backers kind of stand out.
At the end of the day I hope Carmen knows that no one hates him. Hell, the guy would probably be able to run a' Kevin Siembieda ruined my finances with his licensing fees and left me when I was in the lurch' gofundme and possibly get a chance to recover some of the money he lost to Kevin and Palladium because it became a poisoned well. He just followed way too much Palladium advice and is finding out it's been all bad advice.
But still, as I say, Carmen had plenty of time to do market research on his own. He's stuck in mad scrambling mode now to present an average board game kickstarter. Hope he manages to pull out and knows that no one hates him as a person. He just needs to really reevaluate and definitely talk to some people in gaming that are not related to Palladium to get his bearings on where he needs to go whether the kickstarter funds or not.
TwoGunBob wrote: I'll be curious how Kickstarter handles this one. Given their penchant for siding with creators they'll likely slap Drew on thie wrist, tell him to behave, and ban the guy called out for his bid.
well you know they will delete the post but it has been screenshotted and it could cause a serious backlash for KS if they do nothing about it, imagine the press, project collaborator releases private information about a backer and kickstarter does nothing about it but delete the incriminating evidence
meanwhile what Andrew just did might have killed the kickstarter anyway, some new voice I never saw before are speaking up now and calling him on that.
ced1106 wrote: Speaking of reading the comments, it's evident that some backers want this KS to succeed, but not-Palladium isn't doing a good job with the campaign.
Sean O'Hayer about 15 hours ago
More add-ons then stretch goals... and the only stretch goal currently available is to add color to the rulebook, something that should be standard.
The longer I watch all of this happening, the less inclined I feel to keep my pledge. This KS feels like it wasn't thought through well...
I'll hang on as long as I can, hoping for things to improve.
Michael Caldwell about 14 hours ago
@tgmoore I could agree, to an extent, but it's not purely conjecture. As a project/program manager myself, if one of my staff committed a gaff like that in such a public way I would simply reassign them; they obviously don't have the temperament to perform in that specific role.
That gaff, added to the small yet numerous other concerns, is (to me) indicative of a)management issues b)disorganization and c)leadership issues.
I'm not poking at anyone. I want this to succeed because of a love for Rifts, something everyone here shares. I hope things do shape up; we need this not only to fund, but to follow through to project completion. We as backers can absolutely make or break this so it is important that we support it, but we need confidence in the creators. I think Carmen's vision is awesome, but he might need some more help.
@Pete well said.
Todd Ferrullo about 14 hours ago
I am not sure what is less professional, Andrew Cooke's comment about not wanting to answer the questions from $1 backers, Carmen deciding to bail on the comments on his KS before even two days have passed or the absurd excuses about not revealing the miniature manufacturer.
I am starting to lose what little faith I have in this project and I am unsure that I will retain my pledge unless things improve (as I expect many other folks are also considering).
Graham Bailey about 3 hours ago
@daquack I'm right there with you, I own all of the Rifts books from PB, and all of the new Savage Worlds stuff too. I've been playing & GM-ing Rifts for decades, and I was very excited by this project as I really wanted to get my hands on quality sculpted Rifts miniatures .However, I feel at the moment that the project isn't being managed in an open, respectful, transparent or respectful manner and this makes me fearful for a positive outcome for this game. Also, it's not great value for money in comparison with other, more successful Kickstarter campaigns.
However, it's early days yet and it *may* gather steam, if the 'creators' get motivated to actually respond to concerns and smarten up their behaviour and responses on here. I'm still hopeful that they can deliver a quality product that I'm happy to play and own.
Iain Row 19 minutes ago
Well, here we are. I have no opinion either way on RRT, beyond the careful note I have taken of the concerns made very clear by certain backers. I am relieved to see that seems to have died down a bit, we have all seen it and we don't need to be reminded every 5 minutes.
What I have a problem with is the objective attributes of this KS compared to other miniatures based board / skirmish / dudes on a map games.
- A black and white rulebook. What? Haven't seen one of them since the 90s
- 20 miniatures, human size. What? Mythic Battles (ignore stretch goals) has packed 37 into their base game, 8 of which are epic monsters/gods.
- A laminated paper gaming mat. What? I can only assume that this is essentially a Paizo flip mat product. These are terrible, they never lie flat, give bad glare in artificial light, and look cheap.
- No indication of game mechanics. Levelling up? Equipment? The campaign mode?
- No stretch goals. A colour rulebook is not a stretch goal, it is a minimum. Maybe Carmen expected this game to go like CMON games, where the funding is so fast that they sneak in parts upgrades and alternate sculpts in to soak up the first few $100k and the "real" stretch goals start coming in around $300k or more. In which case we could be in for a situation where the game isn't "finished" until funding has hit $160k or higher, and that is just not going to happen at this speed.
- No reviews. All other games send advance copies to well-known reviewers like Rahdo, Undead Viking. Nothing here.
- Beta rulebook. Not only not available, confirmed as not even going to be available at any point during the KS. That means it isn't written yet.
- No manufacturer provided. Endure the Stars went out of their way to reassure backers that they had Ludofact on board, and their CEO even penned a long piece on how they planned to help this new company realise their vision.
- No detailed component breakdown. Probably because it is not yet written. In fact, I highly doubt anything is ready even as a mock-up/prototype except the basic combat rules and a gang-fight scenario.
- No promotion. Beasts of War did a legthy piece with the Myth guys about how to launch a successful KS in this new age. Carmen seems to have missed it. Mythic went on roadshows all around France, testing their game in FLGSs. Monolith did the same with Conan. A PB open house is not the same thing. Once again, this demonstrates Carmen has nothing to show anyone.
I strongly suspect that the only things in existence right now are some 3D renders, a handful of painted test sculpts from an unknown manufacturer (the same one used on RRT perhaps?) and the items Carmen showed in his photo. That is so far short of being a full game it is not even funny.
In his defence, I assume that is why he has put 2 years down for delivery. That is basically enough time for him to design the game and produce it. But that is the problem I have here...they are not showing us a product and asking for funds to help make it a reality. They are showing us an idea for a game from someone who has never made such a game in the past (he has written RPG sourcebooks and fiction...how is that even remotely like writing a board game? Unless this game turns out to be Rifts played with figures, which would be hilarious!)
I don't wish him or the company ill, I love Rifts and would love to back it. But right now, the creator and collaborators are asking us to place our money on complete trust. This is why the track record and the involvement of PB matters, and I really hope all the shillers and people who are going to call me a troll (who probably haven't read this far anyway) take this one point away from this post and concede
IT MATTERS ONLY BECAUSE IT IS ALL WE HAVE TO GO ON.
I would be with you in telling all the RRT crowd to pipe down and keep it to their own project, and would have some sympathy for your slightly Putin-like interpretation of all criticism and questioning as a plot or conspiracy against your game, or "revenge", if the KS offering was a professional one. But to be quite honest I have never seen anything so amateurish outside of those hand-drawn ones that get $1
I am amazed it has gotten as much as it has with these issues, and I can only assume it is because of the love so many people have for Rifts. Which is a real shame if they get let down.
PLEASE put these things right. Vampire Hunters had criticism, they cancelled and came back a year later with a manufacturer confirmed, a beta rulebook, a fully planned out path to all their expansions and a business plan.
I CANNOT recommend highly enough that Rogue heroes does the same, relaunch when you are ready or show us that you have more than you are letting us see right now. You need to look credible, if only because the only way people get massive amounts of money right now is courting the ebay flippers who treat this like a business. I don't like it any more than you do, but there is no doubt they pile in in large size for things like CMON knowing they will get delivered. They might be scum, but they are dispassionate and will pile in and fund this baby regardless of RRT revenge issues if they are confident they will get a product they can sell at a margin to Rifts superfans on the secondary market.
Peace.
In the real world, we call this "Champaign Dreams on a Colt 45 budget."
The thing of it is that they are relying on their Palladium super-fan club to stifle and counter spin past actions, and business practices that, honestly- cannot be excused. They see a project that they "Think" they know will look like, not as it will really appear.
When you have to grease it as hard as they have, there honestly is an issue in there somewhere that they are not discussing.
Like I have said, AVOID THIS ONE AT ALL COSTS. There is something wrong here that I cannot put my finger on, aside from the simple fact that Palladium is involved with it. ( Which should be enough.)There is some bad mojo all around this project, and there is more to this then just a simple, "Hey I need such and such amount to cast a few minis for a tabletop miniatures game."
The thing of it is that they are relying on their Palladium super-fan club to stifle and counter spin past actions, and business practices that, honestly- cannot be excused. They see a project that they "Think" they know will look like, not as it will really appear.
When you have to grease it as hard as they have, there honestly is an issue in there somewhere that they are not discussing.
Like I have said, AVOID THIS ONE AT ALL COSTS. There is something wrong here that I cannot put my finger on, aside from the simple fact that Palladium is involved with it. ( Which should be enough.)There is some bad mojo all around this project, and there is more to this then just a simple, "Hey I need such and such amount to cast a few minis for a tabletop miniatures game."
as it goes their super-fan club has probably turned away more backers then any of the RRT crazies have, imagine you are a backer looking to back this project, you see people asking reasonable questions, then you see the slavering PB mob pounce on them calling them names and such for asking reasonable questions, what would you think? to me it would feel like the whole project is a scam.
Necros wrote: Personally I think they would have had much better luck sticking with metal or resin minis and doing a skirmish game or warmachine-sized battle game, rather than the boxed game route.
Probably true. Carmen is trying to straddle as many target audiences as he can and it's not working. The target audiences want different things:
Wargamers: Want RIFTS minis they can use in other systems. They want top quality plastics that don't cost a bazillion dollars. This doesn't offer that.
Boardgamers: Want a board game with good mechanics and replay-ability. We haven't seen if it offers that.
RIFTS Fans: Probably want minis they can use to play the RIFTS RPG with. This doesn't offer enough variety to do that.
Honestly, a 15mm RIFTS wargame could have satisfied the Wargamers and RIFTS fans and the boardgame market has a lot of very steep competition. At 15mm he could bring in vehicles and big monsters at reasonable costs.
At this point, what Carmen is straddling is unknown beings the chair infront of his computer where he should be fielding questions, must have been thrown out the window the day before yesterday. I'm such a wimp... I hope he is ok.
TwoGunBob wrote: I feel for Carmen because Palladium is forcing him into the kickstarter because licensing is expiring and he's unprepared. But also Carmen could have done research into ANY board game project to know what is expected rather than listen to Palladium's two decades out of touch advice.
When you create/devote a youtube channel to espousing the beauty and elegance of the Palladium rules system like Carmen did, you're not exactly particularly discerning nor keeping up with the current trends. If the pinnacle of RPG rules development in Carmen's mind (at least 5 years or so ago) was a cobbled together scifi unbalanced mess of a 1st ed D&D clone largely intact since Ronald Reagan's presidency, you shouldn't realistically expect him to be caught up in another genre either. He seems like he's making a pre-FFG/kickstarter era board game with less than the production value of a $20 D&D minis starter set from 2004ish (at least that was in color!). Part of it is indeed that he can't simply afford to do better without getting the funds first (an admittedly chicken and egg scenario) but the main part feels like despite apparently having the license from his dear friend Kevin for years that he's woefully unprepared. No gameplay video to start? No downloadable quick start demo rules and paper minis to show off the system? No BGG entry? No ready answers to questions that most all similar kickstarted games get asked? No apparent lessons learned from YOUR previous kickstarter experience in Robotech except how to disclaimer everything to the point where you could put out a 4 page pdf and consider the $100k kickstarter fulfilled? The only thing Kevin and Carmen seemed to have learned is how to further cover their asses in their current project (not that they need it given the lack of legal repercussions with Robotech... kiddie pool legal tsunami included). This campaign just smells of a quick attempt to crowdfund before the license expires and Palladium requires another paycheck to keep the dream alive.
WithintheDungeon wrote: At this point, what Carmen is straddling is unknown beings the chair infront of his computer where he should be fielding questions, must have been thrown out the window the day before yesterday. I'm such a wimp... I hope he is ok.
well according to someone who allegedly has Carmen's ear I might be the reason he is not posting, according to someone who claims to be in contact with Carmen:
I was talking to Carmen in person at the time through messenger
trust me you got into his head he wont respond to anyone on that page at this point
but too be honest not sure what I said that got into his head which hasn't already been said by Kevin.
WithintheDungeon wrote: I lost track of that... Is there more than one someone? One a someone who has your ear and Carmen's ear... seriously that was confusing.
TwoGunBob wrote: I'll be curious how Kickstarter handles this one. Given their penchant for siding with creators they'll likely slap Drew on thie wrist, tell him to behave, and ban the guy called out for his bid.
well you know they will delete the post but it has been screenshotted and it could cause a serious backlash for KS if they do nothing about it, imagine the press, project collaborator releases private information about a backer and kickstarter does nothing about it but delete the incriminating evidence
meanwhile what Andrew just did might have killed the kickstarter anyway, some new voice I never saw before are speaking up now and calling him on that.
I didn't even consider that the license fee may be up a thte kickstarter conclusion and Kevin may well immediately dip his hands into the $100k for a renewal fee immediately. As if the taxes, overheads, Amazon/KS fee, having Kevin take another slice immediately would even further cause issues.
All the more reason to see a pie chart. How much goes back to Palladium as licensing fee as well? I think that the sting of failed Kickstarter would be much easier on Carmen once the ego wound subsides rather than trying to forge ahead with minimum backing and so many hands reaching into the kitty right after conclusion. I'm speculating of course but it's honestly because I'm worried about the guy. I'd hate to think his production budget was written on a cocktail napkin with Kevin Siembieda over a couple glasses of sweet tea, you know?
TwoGunBob wrote: I didn't even consider that the license fee may be up a thte kickstarter conclusion and Kevin may well immediately dip his hands into the $100k for a renewal fee immediately. As if the taxes, overheads, Amazon/KS fee, having Kevin take another slice immediately would even further cause issues.
All the more reason to see a pie chart. How much goes back to Palladium as licensing fee as well? I think that the sting of failed Kickstarter would be much easier on Carmen once the ego wound subsides rather than trying to forge ahead with minimum backing and so many hands reaching into the kitty right after conclusion. I'm speculating of course but it's honestly because I'm worried about the guy. I'd hate to think his production budget was written on a cocktail napkin with Kevin Siembieda over a couple glasses of sweet tea, you know?
thats why I said it would be better for Carmen if the project does not fund, true he will not get to see his dream come true, but better to not see it come true then to see it not come true with people banging down his door and being treated like Kevin is now a pariah.
Sining wrote: What would happen if it funds, and say 10k worth of people just withdraw their pledges and don't pay for them? Does KS still collect the money? Is Carmen even legally obliged to go through with the KS if after collecting payments, only 90k of 100k has been collected?
If the KS *funds* KS attempts to collect the pledges. KS only gives the creator what KS collected.
Most KS have around a 10% non-collection rate, and I'm sure that Palladium factored that into their $100k goal, based on their experience with RRT.
That, BTW, is why I want it to fund $1 over goal. They'll be obliged to deliver their $100k project with roughly $80k in bank, after their various fees. Then, as it becomes readily apparent that the project will fail, oh, the sweetly delicious tears to be savored...
Ordering from Palladium books directly rewarded you with a card that allows Early Bird access to this kickstarter, even if all the early bird slots are taken.
Which seems strange to me, if Palladium has nothing to do with the project as claimed.
But.. if you really want the early bird access and didn't get in. you 'can' if you order a book from Palladium.
So, ordering direct from Palladium (a totally different company... we pinky swear!) gets you a discount and special access to this kickstarter? Is that on the promotional flyer (sp?) they sent out that was mentioned a week or two ago?
warboss wrote: Does anyone have a link or pic to confirm this?
Arete 20 minutes ago
Just in case people don't know.
Ordering from Palladium books directly rewarded you with a card that allows Early Bird access to this kickstarter, even if all the early bird slots are taken.
Which seems strange to me, if Palladium has nothing to do with the project as claimed.
But.. if you really want the early bird access and didn't get in. you 'can' if you order a book from Palladium.
So, ordering direct from Palladium (a totally different company... we pinky swear!) gets you a discount and special access to this kickstarter? Is that on the promotional flyer (sp?) they sent out that was mentioned a week or two ago?
if true they are trying to sidestep and/or avoid kickstarters fees, if evidence comes up Kickstarter might be interested in that since they don't like people sidestepping their fees.
Sining wrote: What would happen if it funds, and say 10k worth of people just withdraw their pledges and don't pay for them? Does KS still collect the money? Is Carmen even legally obliged to go through with the KS if after collecting payments, only 90k of 100k has been collected?
If the KS *funds* KS attempts to collect the pledges. KS only gives the creator what KS collected.
Most KS have around a 10% non-collection rate, and I'm sure that Palladium factored that into their $100k goal, based on their experience with RRT.
That, BTW, is why I want it to fund $1 over goal. They'll be obliged to deliver their $100k project with roughly $80k in bank, after their various fees. Then, as it becomes readily apparent that the project will fail, oh, the sweetly delicious tears to be savored...
Our community is too small to celebrate something like that.
Given what the Palladium faithful have been saying about how RRT should be treated, I completely disagree. Nothing would be better than to have Karma come back on them, and see how the like it when the shoe's on the other foot.
Sining wrote: What would happen if it funds, and say 10k worth of people just withdraw their pledges and don't pay for them? Does KS still collect the money? Is Carmen even legally obliged to go through with the KS if after collecting payments, only 90k of 100k has been collected?
If the KS *funds* KS attempts to collect the pledges. KS only gives the creator what KS collected.
Most KS have around a 10% non-collection rate, and I'm sure that Palladium factored that into their $100k goal, based on their experience with RRT.
That, BTW, is why I want it to fund $1 over goal. They'll be obliged to deliver their $100k project with roughly $80k in bank, after their various fees. Then, as it becomes readily apparent that the project will fail, oh, the sweetly delicious tears to be savored...
Don't forget that there are people who can request a refund IN FULL up to 14 days after the KS ends. Everything is returned even if it dips into their pockets.
TwoGunBob wrote: I'll be curious how Kickstarter handles this one. Given their penchant for siding with creators they'll likely slap Drew on thie wrist, tell him to behave, and ban the guy called out for his bid.
well you know they will delete the post but it has been screenshotted and it could cause a serious backlash for KS if they do nothing about it, imagine the press, project collaborator releases private information about a backer and kickstarter does nothing about it but delete the incriminating evidence
meanwhile what Andrew just did might have killed the kickstarter anyway, some new voice I never saw before are speaking up now and calling him on that.
That has nothing to do with what the Andrew guy did. If all the "personal information" released was that someone was a $1 backer... Well, that's not personal information at all. Name, address, phone number, etc. is personal information. gakky move sure, but not the release of personal information.
Not that these gak bags need any defending, but let's be at least intellectually honest in our criticisms.
TwoGunBob wrote: I'll be curious how Kickstarter handles this one. Given their penchant for siding with creators they'll likely slap Drew on thie wrist, tell him to behave, and ban the guy called out for his bid.
well you know they will delete the post but it has been screenshotted and it could cause a serious backlash for KS if they do nothing about it, imagine the press, project collaborator releases private information about a backer and kickstarter does nothing about it but delete the incriminating evidence
meanwhile what Andrew just did might have killed the kickstarter anyway, some new voice I never saw before are speaking up now and calling him on that.
That has nothing to do with what the Andrew guy did. If all the "personal information" released was that someone was a $1 backer... Well, that's not personal information at all. Name, address, phone number, etc. is personal information. gakky move sure, but not the release of personal information.
Not that these gak bags need any defending, but let's be at least intellectually honest in our criticisms.
~Eric
yeah what Andrew did violates kickstarters own rules and was just wrong, furthermore it appear funding on the project has hit a brickwall. could the project be dead or dying already?
JohnHwangDD wrote: Given what the Palladium faithful have been saying about how RRT should be treated, I completely disagree. Nothing would be better than to have Karma come back on them, and see how the like it when the shoe's on the other foot.
And that's why you're just a dollar robotech comment troll, John. If you were a real "palladium faithful*TM, you'd know that they'd collectively answer "Yes, thank you sir. Please may I have another!?!" and realize that your actions are in vain. Duh!
Yeah, that's kind of underwhelming. Three different range bands on the cyborg's weapon, each doing different levels of damage, and two different levels of critical hits. Equipment is on separate cards from the characters, which makes no sense given all Dead Boys will be wearing...Dead Boy armor and using Coalition guns. Way over-complicated for 'board game', which this is not. It's a grid based skirmish game with card mechanics (you can use cards to up your dodge roll) on top of opposed dice rolls.
No wonder they didn't post this sooner, this is bad.
yeah what Andrew did violates kickstarters own rules and was just wrong, furthermore it appear funding on the project has hit a brickwall. could the project be dead or dying already?
Whatever man. I seriously doubt they'll see it that way. I also seriously doubt you're capable of understanding why. Totally a dick move for sure, but I don't think it breaks the rules.
This project, to keep it somewhat on topic needs cancelled and a year of polish, at least, before trying again. Carmen also needs to do major research on how to setup, present, and run a Kickstarter.
TwoGunBob wrote: I feel for Carmen because Palladium is forcing him into the kickstarter because licensing is expiring and he's unprepared. But also Carmen could have done research into ANY board game project to know what is expected rather than listen to Palladium's two decades out of touch advice.
When you create/devote a youtube channel to espousing the beauty and elegance of the Palladium rules system like Carmen did, you're not exactly particularly discerning nor keeping up with the current trends. If the pinnacle of RPG rules development in Carmen's mind (at least 5 years or so ago) was a cobbled together scifi unbalanced mess of a 1st ed D&D clone largely intact since Ronald Reagan's presidency, you shouldn't realistically expect him to be caught up in another genre either. He seems like he's making a pre-FFG/kickstarter era board game with less than the production value of a $20 D&D minis starter set from 2004ish (at least that was in color!). Part of it is indeed that he can't simply afford to do better without getting the funds first (an admittedly chicken and egg scenario) but the main part feels like despite apparently having the license from his dear friend Kevin for years that he's woefully unprepared. No gameplay video to start? No downloadable quick start demo rules and paper minis to show off the system? No BGG entry? No ready answers to questions that most all similar kickstarted games get asked? No apparent lessons learned from YOUR previous kickstarter experience in Robotech except how to disclaimer everything to the point where you could put out a 4 page pdf and consider the $100k kickstarter fulfilled? The only thing Kevin and Carmen seemed to have learned is how to further cover their asses in their current project (not that they need it given the lack of legal repercussions with Robotech... kiddie pool legal tsunami included). This campaign just smells of a quick attempt to crowdfund before the license expires and Palladium requires another paycheck to keep the dream alive.
Did Asterios take over your account for that post?
I think Carmen approached this with the belief he was going to be in the driver's seat, but relinquished it after the comments started rolling to ride shotgun. He was then quickly put in the back seat and thrown to the trunk by now. He should shortly be out and under the bus by the next PBWU. Want to take bets on how Kevin espouses how quickly "his" KS's fund and plead for fans to "help his friend" make "a dream come true"?
I do think the best thing the KS could do at this time would be to cancel, re-organize and try again - and put more distance between themselves and PB (moreso like the gulf between Pinnacle and PB). It really looks like Carmen had done the superficial work to put up the front page content, but apparently thought he could just sit back and (pleasantly) chat with backers as the money rolled itself in. The poor, hastly assembled mini pics graphic and the lack of a graphic AT ALL for the "revised" (and probably last-minute scramble to come up with) stretch goals tells me little to no thought went into anticipating how to properly market the KS - or what sort of questions and expectations the backers would have.
This thing really needs a do-over, but likely due to licensing concerns, it's going to have to struggle and hope it makes it across the goal line. Hoping Carmen luck with his business, but only if he wises up and puts more distance between himself and PB - he's got too many of their bad habits.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Given what the Palladium faithful have been saying about how RRT should be treated, I completely disagree. Nothing would be better than to have Karma come back on them, and see how the like it when the shoe's on the other foot.
Still not cool.
There are a lot of people who aren't Palladium Super-Fan-Friends, regular Forum goers, etc. that would get swept up in something like that.
Again, better that it doesn't fund at all. Period.
Sining wrote: What would happen if it funds, and say 10k worth of people just withdraw their pledges and don't pay for them? Does KS still collect the money? Is Carmen even legally obliged to go through with the KS if after collecting payments, only 90k of 100k has been collected?
If the KS *funds* KS attempts to collect the pledges. KS only gives the creator what KS collected.
Most KS have around a 10% non-collection rate, and I'm sure that Palladium factored that into their $100k goal, based on their experience with RRT.
That, BTW, is why I want it to fund $1 over goal. They'll be obliged to deliver their $100k project with roughly $80k in bank, after their various fees. Then, as it becomes readily apparent that the project will fail, oh, the sweetly delicious tears to be savored...
Don't forget that there are people who can request a refund IN FULL up to 14 days after the KS ends. Everything is returned even if it dips into their pockets.
That 14-day cooling off period is with CMoN, a reputable company. Palladium follows the Laws of Acquisition.
KS does not require or provide cooling off period, nor does the FTC 3-day cooling off period apply.
Taarnak wrote: This project, to keep it somewhat on topic needs cancelled and a year of polish, at least, before trying again. Carmen also needs to do major research on how to setup, present, and run a Kickstarter.
~Eric
Apply as needed.
IIRC, Carmen before his mental breakdown and suicide attempt mentioned (on the palladium forums?) that the KS needed to be done now and couldn't wait. The subtext most read into that was that after working on it for years that the deadline was coming up and he'd have to repay Kevin for the rights for another set period. Again, that's conjecture based off of what he wrote (and was probably deleted in the Great Carmen Purge of the Palladium forums after his suicide attempt if that's where it was). Again, season as needed. If true, he can't work on it for another year to polish it up without the funds (a catch 22). Of course, if that's true, his good friend, mentor, boss, and collaborator Kevin could always defer that payment or remove it entirely since he professes to believe in Carmen and the project so much in the weekly murmurs. Surely it'll be a smash hit, right!?
JohnHwangDD wrote: Given what the Palladium faithful have been saying about how RRT should be treated, I completely disagree. Nothing would be better than to have Karma come back on them, and see how the like it when the shoe's on the other foot.
And that's why you're just a dollar robotech comment troll, John. If you were a real "palladium faithful*TM, you'd know that they'd collectively answer "Yes, thank you sir. Please may I have another!?!" and realize that your actions are in vain. Duh!
I've not put a penny into RH. Not a fething penny.
There are a lot of people who aren't Palladium Super-Fan-Friends, regular Forum goers, etc. that would get swept up in something like that.
Again, better that it doesn't fund at all. Period.
Karma's a bitch.
If they're so stupid as to get caught up in this, despite the ample warnings in the Comments, they completely deserve it. No sympathy for fools.
No, better that the Palladium Faithful get a good heaping tablespoon of their own medicine. At this point, I would like nothing better than to see Palladium and Kevin bankrupt.
Did Asterios take over your account for that post?
If Rick has been posting like that as of late then he's much improved or a poor quality flash clone. The real Asterios is the guy that called me a deep cover palladium double agent/mole when I didn't cackle with glee about old man Kev getting run over by a car nor agree with his nuanced diagnosis and care plan for the injury for the subsequent injury based solely on his own childhood..
yeah what Andrew did violates kickstarters own rules and was just wrong, furthermore it appear funding on the project has hit a brickwall. could the project be dead or dying already?
Whatever man. I seriously doubt they'll see it that way. I also seriously doubt you're capable of understanding why. Totally a dick move for sure, but I don't think it breaks the rules.
This project, to keep it somewhat on topic needs cancelled and a year of polish, at least, before trying again. Carmen also needs to do major research on how to setup, present, and run a Kickstarter.
~Eric
actually it is covered under Kickstarters rules regarding Collaborator's and giving out any private info including pledge amount is a no no.
Sining wrote: What would happen if it funds, and say 10k worth of people just withdraw their pledges and don't pay for them? Does KS still collect the money? Is Carmen even legally obliged to go through with the KS if after collecting payments, only 90k of 100k has been collected?
If the KS *funds* KS attempts to collect the pledges. KS only gives the creator what KS collected.
Most KS have around a 10% non-collection rate, and I'm sure that Palladium factored that into their $100k goal, based on their experience with RRT.
That, BTW, is why I want it to fund $1 over goal. They'll be obliged to deliver their $100k project with roughly $80k in bank, after their various fees. Then, as it becomes readily apparent that the project will fail, oh, the sweetly delicious tears to be savored...
Don't forget that there are people who can request a refund IN FULL up to 14 days after the KS ends. Everything is returned even if it dips into their pockets.
That 14-day cooling off period is with CMoN, a reputable company. Palladium follows the Laws of Acquisition.
KS does not require or provide cooling off period, nor does the FTC 3-day cooling off period apply.
It's on their Kickstarter main page at the bottom that they will give refunds in full up to 14 days after close of the KS.
"We are happy to refund you within 14 days of the campaign’s end, fees included. After that, you are committed to backing the Rifts® Board Game. Please remember, you are backing a project, not buying a product. We are a start-up company, so once we have a successful Kickstarter with your help, those funds are committed to paying artists, sculptors, manufacturers, etc., and we will no longer be able to offer refunds.
This Kickstarter project is being funded in USD, and any refunds will also be paid in USD for the exact amount received in USD, excluding any applicable fees depending on the time of the refund being processed."
This Kickstarter project is being funded in USD, and any refunds will also be paid in USD for the exact amount received in USD, excluding any applicable fees depending on the time of the refund being processed."
Did Asterios take over your account for that post?
If Rick has been posting like that as of late then he's much improved or a poor quality flash clone. The real Asterios is the guy that called me a deep cover palladium double agent/mole when I didn't cackle with glee about old man Kev getting run over by a car nor agree with his nuanced diagnosis and care plan for the injury for the subsequent injury based solely on his own childhood..
guess again. don't think I had much to comment about Kevins running into a jeep other then Karma is a you know what.
Theophony wrote: Don't forget that there are people who can request a refund IN FULL up to 14 days after the KS ends. Everything is returned even if it dips into their pockets.
That 14-day cooling off period is with CMoN, a reputable company. Palladium follows the Laws of Acquisition.
KS does not require or provide cooling off period, nor does the FTC 3-day cooling off period apply.
It's on their Kickstarter main page at the bottom that they will give refunds in full up to 14 days after close of the KS.
"We are happy to refund you within 14 days of the campaign’s end, fees included.
This Kickstarter project is being funded in USD, and any refunds will also be paid in USD for the exact amount received in USD, excluding any applicable fees depending on the time of the refund being processed."
You forget you're dealing with someone who put money into RRT, based on the things they had written on the RRTKS page...
But if honestly believe that, well, then, go ahead and put your money on the barrel! No risk, right? Palladium's word is ironclad, and you can take that to the bank.
Let's see now... taking per day is down, backers per day is down, I saw some blurb of this on TTGN, didn't seem to help. The only thing up is comments per day, and having flipped through them at work, I can say they aren't the "excited about the project" kind of comments.
My initial reaction to the new Stretch Goals was "Eh, they think 10k is enough to cut steel for 5 Skelebots + manufacturing? Optimistic aren't they?"
Now that I look over the numbers they are asking for in the SG, they sort of makes no sense. $20K extra to put one more squad of Dog Boys in at the $200k mark. Dog Boys is stated to be $33 retail. Assume $11 to make, and you'd need to add that for roughly 2000 units, so the cost would be $22K... so your SG would actually set you back for $2K? Eh, what?
Overall the project has enough mismatches that I'm not very confident of the team. It's a bit blotched together, which is not really a great sign. Workable but the Boardgame crowd is notoriously fickle about ruleset, which there's not much to go on right now.
EDIT: Also, yeah, just to add on.. I think I saw a comment here earlier about the target audience? Yeah this one has that feel. not quite focused enough, trying to appeal to too many people. Need to prioritize -- showcase and playtest the rules? Develop the minis more fully? Work out a card game mechanics more? There's room here for ideas but ideas need to be executed to be worthwhile, and to execute, needs focus.
oh lord Carmen just did a Kevin type of update to answer the backers questions, all about Carmen and his company but nothing about the game itself, that is not going to go over well me thinks.
There have been a lot of questions and some concerns about my company, Rogue Heroes LLC and my relationship with Palladium Books. I’m happy to answer for the sake of clarity.
Why did I as the owner of Rogue Heroes choose the RIFTS® license for my first Kickstarter?
I am a gamer geek. I LOVE games! All kinds of games, but especially role-playing games, miniature games and board games! I have purchased and backed more Kickstarters than I can count off the top of my head, certainly more than me and my wife can find space for.
It turns out I also have a good mind for game design and I love doing it. As I got more involved in writing for RPGs and then creating miniatures games and board games, I found I was even better at designing those types of games. I began to design my own miniature games for fun, including a Robotech game that I ran at the 2012 Palladium Open House using the old Matchbox toys as the figures. Everyone had a blast. I have also been working on a number of other ideas for miniature games of my own. One has been optioned by Upper Deck and another one I’m keeping for myself. My meeting with Upper Deck led to me doing freelance work them. They have been keeping me very busy, but a non-disclosure agreement prevents me from talking about the games I’ve worked on. Sorry. I would love to tell you all about them, but I can’t at this time.
For me Rifts presents a HUGE opportunity for Rogue Heroes as a start-up company. Rifts was a smash hit in the RPG market, and still has an established fan base. Millions of people know about Rifts. That’s why Rogue Heroes is interested in Rifts, and why Disney, Pinnacle Entertainment Group, Nokia, and numerous other companies have sought various licensing deals or continue to seek to do work with the Rifts IP. There are a ton of cool things that I simply enjoy in Rifts that I know will be awesome as a miniatures game. And as a fan, it is a game world I know well and love to run games in. The board game starting in Chi-Town is just the beginning. A friendly intro-point for what I have in mind for the future.
So please understand:
- The Rifts® board game is all my idea. I was the one who came to Kevin about making this game back in 2015. Not the other way around.
- I am launching my own company, Rogue Heroes Publishing with this Kickstarter. Better to start with a well-known intellectual property (IP) that has an established fan base than one that doesn't. At least that is how I feel.
- I licensed the game rights for Rifts® from Palladium, just like any other company would do. Just like Pinnacle did for Savage Rifts. Just like Fantasy Flight Games did with Disney for Star Wars. I paid for the license. I am contracted with the license. I intend to use it.
- I am not Palladium Books. I am Carmen Bellaire, a gamer and fan boy who became a freelance writer and game designer. I now have 15 years of experience working in the gaming industry.
- I've invested my own hard earned money to get this game to the point where it is nearly ready to go into manufacturing. Around $40,000 dollars so far and I have been working on it for about 2 years now. The sculptors for about a year. I’m the guy who chose to make this game and this Kickstarter. It is my time, my vision and my effort, and that of my hardworking team. This is a shared dream with a number of people involved. And now we need your financial support to make it a reality. If you don't want to support it, then I can respect that. Don't support it and respectfully dismiss yourselves. Just please stop harassing the backers who choose to support this game. Everyone is entitled to their choice.
- Palladium Books is not my partner and does not own any part of my company.
- Rogue Heroes Publishing is a Canadian company, but I also have a Michigan-based LLC for the Kickstarter because the Canadian dollar is currently weak compared to the US dollar, and I do not want currency fluctuations to hurt the production of the Rifts Board Game. I live in Windsor. Michigan is across the river. Setting up an LLC in Michigan is the closest and most convenient location for me in the USA. A short trip to the bank. Livonia was just a convenient location for my USA address.
- My goal is to make an awesome, high-quality, miniatures games for Rifts. And more than what you currently see on the Kickstarter page. My hope is that the Kickstarter gets big enough to double the number of miniatures in the core game, so I can make a full miniatures game with 40 figures, more cards, more maps, more tiles and more dice. More of everything. And there are expansion packs too. A lot of expansions. I have always imagined Rifts as a miniatures game. My ultimate dream for the future is to make Rifts into a wargame, but I’m starting small and reasonable with this first game and plan to grow Rogue Heroes’ Rifts game line with expansion sets and additional games with new settings and adversaries.
- I’m doing a Rifts board game because I love the characters and the world. Love Kevin or hate him for whatever reason, it doesn’t change the fact that he created an awesome game world with Rifts. That’s my opinion and I know there are thousands and thousands of you who feel the same way, or I would not have wasted my time making this game. This is the game I want to see as a fan of Rifts and as a miniatures gamer.
What is your relationship with Palladium Books?
My relationship with Palladium Books is pretty simple and no secret. I have been playing numerous RPGs (including many produced by Palladium) long before I ever met anyone at Palladium Books. Back around 2002, I had a friend in my Heroes Unlimited campaign who convinced me that I should submit a bunch of the superpowers I had created for my own use in a game. A gamer and mutual friend introduced me to Kevin Siembieda, creator of Rifts and owner of Palladium Books. Long story short, Kevin liked my work so much that when I said I had ideas for a lot more, he had me write them up and turned my work into the Powers Unlimited sourcebook. The first of three books I would write for the Heroes Unlimited RPG series.
I went on to write more and contribute to a number of Palladium products, including creating the Splicers® RPG. As a freelance writer, I work from my home in Windsor, Canada. Over time, Kevin and I became good friends. Most freelancers who work for Palladium often become friends with Kevin. This is not just a "Palladium" thing, such friendships often happen in most businesses, especially when it is a hobby that you both share and love, and your boss creates a friendly atmosphere of cooperation. All my work for Palladium has been freelance, just like the 20+ other writers and artists that have done work for them over the years. I have never been an employee of Palladium Books. I also ran games at the Palladium Open Houses, have gamed a few times with Kevin, though always at conventions, and I’ve even been to a half dozen Christmas parties over the years.
The Kevin I know is not the guy some people would like to paint him as. He’s the guy who gave me my start and helped me to believe in myself. He has been a friend to me in every sense of the word. Kevin, Wayne and the guys at Palladium have been there for me, rooting me on for years, and especially now with this game. I may not agree with every decision that he has made, but what friend ever does? Palladium Books is Kevin's company and I have only worked as a freelancer (providing work for hire) for Palladium Books. I do not make policy or have any say on how Kevin runs his business.
As a businessman, myself, I have a licensing agreement with Palladium Books to use the Rifts intellectual property for the miniatures board game market. Like most companies that have entered into a license agreement, I have to be respectful with the IP. That’s easy because this is one of my favorite games and a dream opportunity. My representation of the IP has to be reviewed and approved by Palladium. This is nothing new in licensing. With that being said, this is a Rogue Heroes product, being designed, developed and produced by me. Rogue Heroes is the company that is liable for the Rifts board game creation and fulfillment. Not Palladium Books.
Will my Rifts board game make Palladium Books money? Of course it will, just like any license makes the Licensor money. Nobody gives you the right to make a game based on their intellectual property unless you pay them a royalty. If that bothers you, I don’t know what to tell you. I guess you will not support this game. Of course, that is your decision.
I would not have invested my hard earned money nor offered this Kickstarter if I was not confident that me and my team at Rogue Heroes could deliver it.
My Involvement with Robotech RPG Tactics
I got involved with Robotech RPG Tactics (RRT) in 2013, when Kevin asked me to help the Ninja guys develop the game's rules. I was paid a flat fee for that work, like the rest of the freelancers who worked on the game.
I understand why some people are angry about how Palladium has handled RRT and Wave Two, but go complain to them about RRT. Not on my Kickstarter page. I don’t mean to be rude about it, but Palladium is not my company. I have no control over what Palladium Books does, has done or will do with RRT. I’m friends with Kevin and grateful for this opportunity, but Rogue Heroes and Palladium are two completely different companies. Please do not bring the Palladium RRT issues and arguments here, they have no bearing on what I am trying to do. I don’t know everything that has transpired with RRT and Palladium, because I wasn’t around the office much. I had other obligations and I was working toward my career shift into designing miniature games.
Why the 2 year Delivery Date for this Kickstarter:
I listed the delivery date as two years from now because I didn’t want to over promise like other long overdue Kickstarters did (there are plenty of them out there). As a backer of many Kickstarters, I have tried to learn from their mistakes. I thought a two year lead time would be seen as transparent, reasonable and responsible. Better to come in six months or a year early than to be late was my philosophy. Maybe I was too worried about that. I am so far along on the game, that the release is most likely way under 2 years from now. I’m new to this, so I’m trying to be conservative and do right by Rogue Heroes' backers.
My Personal Life and Ordeal:
Early this year, I found myself in a bad place and I tried to commit suicide. My family and I live with that terrible choice every day. I am getting the professional help I need and am feeling more and more like my old self, every day. I’m learning how to better cope with stress, frustration, and matters beyond my control. The encouragement and support that I received from numerous family members, friends, gamers, backers, etc., really means a lot to me. My work on the Rifts® Board Game and preparations for this Kickstarter have been very therapeutic and is actually helping keep me inspired, motivated, grounded and in good spirits. Seeing the game and the miniatures come to life is part of my dream and the reason why I chose Rifts in the first place. So please respect that and leave my personal life and ordeal out of the Kickstarter discussions going forward. You may not agree with me or my choices, and some of you may not like who I have licensed my game from, but it’s my choice. And it is a choice that the Rogue Heroes backers want to see fulfilled. Please be respectful to them and to my company, Rogue Heroes Publishing.
I hope this answers a lot of questions. I will continue to post and be as transparent as possible. Thank you for your support and please spread the word about this Kickstarter.
Yeah that's a pretty solid FAQ right there. Totally ignores the fact that there are plenty of actual backers asking actual questions that were promised actual answers only to get an update where he's addressing totally different people.
actually it is covered under Kickstarters rules regarding Collaborator's and giving out any private info including pledge amount is a no no.
Do you have a link to that?
All I'm seeing is in the TOS under the heading "Things You Definitely Shouldn't Do" is the following:
"Don’t abuse other users’ personal information. When you use Kickstarter — and especially if you create a successful project — you may receive information about other users, including things like their names, email addresses, and postal addresses. This information is provided for the purpose of participating in a Kickstarter project: don’t use it for other purposes, and don’t abuse it."
Which again, I'm pretty sure the jerk in question is clear of violating.
I'm starting to understand why there were no ripples in the mud puddle...
Asterios wrote: oh lord Carmen just did a Kevin type of update to answer the backers questions, all about Carmen and his company but nothing about the game itself, that is not going to go over well me thinks.
There have been a lot of questions and some concerns about my company, Rogue Heroes LLC and my relationship with Palladium Books. I’m happy to answer for the sake of clarity.
Why did I as the owner of Rogue Heroes choose the RIFTS® license for my first Kickstarter?
I am a gamer geek. I LOVE games! All kinds of games, but especially role-playing games, miniature games and board games! I have purchased and backed more Kickstarters than I can count off the top of my head, certainly more than me and my wife can find space for.
It turns out I also have a good mind for game design and I love doing it. As I got more involved in writing for RPGs and then creating miniatures games and board games, I found I was even better at designing those types of games. I began to design my own miniature games for fun, including a Robotech game that I ran at the 2012 Palladium Open House using the old Matchbox toys as the figures. Everyone had a blast. I have also been working on a number of other ideas for miniature games of my own. One has been optioned by Upper Deck and another one I’m keeping for myself. My meeting with Upper Deck led to me doing freelance work them. They have been keeping me very busy, but a non-disclosure agreement prevents me from talking about the games I’ve worked on. Sorry. I would love to tell you all about them, but I can’t at this time.
For me Rifts presents a HUGE opportunity for Rogue Heroes as a start-up company. Rifts was a smash hit in the RPG market, and still has an established fan base. Millions of people know about Rifts. That’s why Rogue Heroes is interested in Rifts, and why Disney, Pinnacle Entertainment Group, Nokia, and numerous other companies have sought various licensing deals or continue to seek to do work with the Rifts IP. There are a ton of cool things that I simply enjoy in Rifts that I know will be awesome as a miniatures game. And as a fan, it is a game world I know well and love to run games in. The board game starting in Chi-Town is just the beginning. A friendly intro-point for what I have in mind for the future.
So please understand:
- The Rifts® board game is all my idea. I was the one who came to Kevin about making this game back in 2015. Not the other way around.
- I am launching my own company, Rogue Heroes Publishing with this Kickstarter. Better to start with a well-known intellectual property (IP) that has an established fan base than one that doesn't. At least that is how I feel.
- I licensed the game rights for Rifts® from Palladium, just like any other company would do. Just like Pinnacle did for Savage Rifts. Just like Fantasy Flight Games did with Disney for Star Wars. I paid for the license. I am contracted with the license. I intend to use it.
- I am not Palladium Books. I am Carmen Bellaire, a gamer and fan boy who became a freelance writer and game designer. I now have 15 years of experience working in the gaming industry.
- I've invested my own hard earned money to get this game to the point where it is nearly ready to go into manufacturing. Around $40,000 dollars so far and I have been working on it for about 2 years now. The sculptors for about a year. I’m the guy who chose to make this game and this Kickstarter. It is my time, my vision and my effort, and that of my hardworking team. This is a shared dream with a number of people involved. And now we need your financial support to make it a reality. If you don't want to support it, then I can respect that. Don't support it and respectfully dismiss yourselves. Just please stop harassing the backers who choose to support this game. Everyone is entitled to their choice.
- Palladium Books is not my partner and does not own any part of my company.
- Rogue Heroes Publishing is a Canadian company, but I also have a Michigan-based LLC for the Kickstarter because the Canadian dollar is currently weak compared to the US dollar, and I do not want currency fluctuations to hurt the production of the Rifts Board Game. I live in Windsor. Michigan is across the river. Setting up an LLC in Michigan is the closest and most convenient location for me in the USA. A short trip to the bank. Livonia was just a convenient location for my USA address.
- My goal is to make an awesome, high-quality, miniatures games for Rifts. And more than what you currently see on the Kickstarter page. My hope is that the Kickstarter gets big enough to double the number of miniatures in the core game, so I can make a full miniatures game with 40 figures, more cards, more maps, more tiles and more dice. More of everything. And there are expansion packs too. A lot of expansions. I have always imagined Rifts as a miniatures game. My ultimate dream for the future is to make Rifts into a wargame, but I’m starting small and reasonable with this first game and plan to grow Rogue Heroes’ Rifts game line with expansion sets and additional games with new settings and adversaries.
- I’m doing a Rifts board game because I love the characters and the world. Love Kevin or hate him for whatever reason, it doesn’t change the fact that he created an awesome game world with Rifts. That’s my opinion and I know there are thousands and thousands of you who feel the same way, or I would not have wasted my time making this game. This is the game I want to see as a fan of Rifts and as a miniatures gamer.
What is your relationship with Palladium Books?
My relationship with Palladium Books is pretty simple and no secret. I have been playing numerous RPGs (including many produced by Palladium) long before I ever met anyone at Palladium Books. Back around 2002, I had a friend in my Heroes Unlimited campaign who convinced me that I should submit a bunch of the superpowers I had created for my own use in a game. A gamer and mutual friend introduced me to Kevin Siembieda, creator of Rifts and owner of Palladium Books. Long story short, Kevin liked my work so much that when I said I had ideas for a lot more, he had me write them up and turned my work into the Powers Unlimited sourcebook. The first of three books I would write for the Heroes Unlimited RPG series.
I went on to write more and contribute to a number of Palladium products, including creating the Splicers® RPG. As a freelance writer, I work from my home in Windsor, Canada. Over time, Kevin and I became good friends. Most freelancers who work for Palladium often become friends with Kevin. This is not just a "Palladium" thing, such friendships often happen in most businesses, especially when it is a hobby that you both share and love, and your boss creates a friendly atmosphere of cooperation. All my work for Palladium has been freelance, just like the 20+ other writers and artists that have done work for them over the years. I have never been an employee of Palladium Books. I also ran games at the Palladium Open Houses, have gamed a few times with Kevin, though always at conventions, and I’ve even been to a half dozen Christmas parties over the years.
The Kevin I know is not the guy some people would like to paint him as. He’s the guy who gave me my start and helped me to believe in myself. He has been a friend to me in every sense of the word. Kevin, Wayne and the guys at Palladium have been there for me, rooting me on for years, and especially now with this game. I may not agree with every decision that he has made, but what friend ever does? Palladium Books is Kevin's company and I have only worked as a freelancer (providing work for hire) for Palladium Books. I do not make policy or have any say on how Kevin runs his business.
As a businessman, myself, I have a licensing agreement with Palladium Books to use the Rifts intellectual property for the miniatures board game market. Like most companies that have entered into a license agreement, I have to be respectful with the IP. That’s easy because this is one of my favorite games and a dream opportunity. My representation of the IP has to be reviewed and approved by Palladium. This is nothing new in licensing. With that being said, this is a Rogue Heroes product, being designed, developed and produced by me. Rogue Heroes is the company that is liable for the Rifts board game creation and fulfillment. Not Palladium Books.
Will my Rifts board game make Palladium Books money? Of course it will, just like any license makes the Licensor money. Nobody gives you the right to make a game based on their intellectual property unless you pay them a royalty. If that bothers you, I don’t know what to tell you. I guess you will not support this game. Of course, that is your decision.
I would not have invested my hard earned money nor offered this Kickstarter if I was not confident that me and my team at Rogue Heroes could deliver it.
My Involvement with Robotech RPG Tactics
I got involved with Robotech RPG Tactics (RRT) in 2013, when Kevin asked me to help the Ninja guys develop the game's rules. I was paid a flat fee for that work, like the rest of the freelancers who worked on the game.
I understand why some people are angry about how Palladium has handled RRT and Wave Two, but go complain to them about RRT. Not on my Kickstarter page. I don’t mean to be rude about it, but Palladium is not my company. I have no control over what Palladium Books does, has done or will do with RRT. I’m friends with Kevin and grateful for this opportunity, but Rogue Heroes and Palladium are two completely different companies. Please do not bring the Palladium RRT issues and arguments here, they have no bearing on what I am trying to do. I don’t know everything that has transpired with RRT and Palladium, because I wasn’t around the office much. I had other obligations and I was working toward my career shift into designing miniature games.
Why the 2 year Delivery Date for this Kickstarter:
I listed the delivery date as two years from now because I didn’t want to over promise like other long overdue Kickstarters did (there are plenty of them out there). As a backer of many Kickstarters, I have tried to learn from their mistakes. I thought a two year lead time would be seen as transparent, reasonable and responsible. Better to come in six months or a year early than to be late was my philosophy. Maybe I was too worried about that. I am so far along on the game, that the release is most likely way under 2 years from now. I’m new to this, so I’m trying to be conservative and do right by Rogue Heroes' backers.
My Personal Life and Ordeal:
Early this year, I found myself in a bad place and I tried to commit suicide. My family and I live with that terrible choice every day. I am getting the professional help I need and am feeling more and more like my old self, every day. I’m learning how to better cope with stress, frustration, and matters beyond my control. The encouragement and support that I received from numerous family members, friends, gamers, backers, etc., really means a lot to me. My work on the Rifts® Board Game and preparations for this Kickstarter have been very therapeutic and is actually helping keep me inspired, motivated, grounded and in good spirits. Seeing the game and the miniatures come to life is part of my dream and the reason why I chose Rifts in the first place. So please respect that and leave my personal life and ordeal out of the Kickstarter discussions going forward. You may not agree with me or my choices, and some of you may not like who I have licensed my game from, but it’s my choice. And it is a choice that the Rogue Heroes backers want to see fulfilled. Please be respectful to them and to my company, Rogue Heroes Publishing.
I hope this answers a lot of questions. I will continue to post and be as transparent as possible. Thank you for your support and please spread the word about this Kickstarter.
Thank you,
Carmen
OK, please, sentences start with capital letters - I can tell your shift key works, so please pay attention to this!
The word is 'methinks' - and as much as I hate that word - go ahead and use it, just spell it correctly.
Now, as for this update, this is clearly an attempt to provide some 'distance' from Palladium and KS.
It isn't going to work, but I can see why he's trying...
That latest update (#4) is bizarre, to say the least. Too buddy/buddy with Kevin and/or putinng him on a pedestal. Does the exact opposite of making Rogue Heroes look like it is a seperate entity. In the end, the whole thing comes across too eerily similar to Kevin's "History of Everything" two-update rant, and this KS has just begun.
Did I also catch that Carmen apparently fronted $40K of his own funds for this endeavour so only about $25K is actual backer investment? If so, that really makes me doubt this will successfully fund at all.
I kinda feel sorry for how the KS seems to be going, but he has made his own bed and seems to be quickly turning it into a grave for himself, sadly. I don't think this is going to end happily at all - but hopefully only a "lesson learned".
While that's better, there is still alot more room to improve communication. That should have been in the original campaign if they're laying claim to being honest and open... But it wasn't. Also, just a freelancer with no power to affect Robotech? That's not what you said two months ago, Carmen, albeit you obviously weren't of sound mind. It also neglects years of gencon demoing of the game and going to Beasts of War in Ireland to promo the game on their videos. Was Carmen the one working on the scenario book or was that Roach red duke? It also fails to address the myriad of palladium staff that are not just approving work already done but actually involved in creating the work in the first place up to and ncluding collaborating Kevin and Wayne amongst other. This is truly a joint venture with alot of the same people doing the same things they did with Robotech years earlier in stark contrast with real creative separation like with Peg and Savage Rifts.
It also doesn't begin to address many of the technical and production issues raised in comments but maybe that'll be in tomorrows updatr. All in all, this update feels like Kevin's 2 part history of the world update from years ago and both should have been honest and open sooner. I'll admit that 3 days is an improvement over the previous two years though. In tge end though, I'll be bowing out of the conversation at this point and wish the backers (real backers and not comment trolling palladium employee collaborators) the best of luck as they'll need it likely.
It read about like I said yesterday. Back this project because Carmen is a cool gamer dude that feels mouth wateringly juicy about Rifts, Palladium, and Kevin Siembieda. Nothing in the update is written to foster trust in the company and Carmen's vision for the company and the plan he has. It's so much fluff without anything concrete.
Honestly, I don't see how he can put Kevin on a pedestal to be admired when the guy is likely pressuring so hard about renewing that license.
Churchill Superbacker about 5 hours ago
I changed my pledge from $150 to $1. There's no way I can conceivably continue to back this project with the quantity of unanswered questions and quality of product that I will be getting.
When the major questions that have been asked ad nauseum finally get answered I may go back and update my pledge.
I remain cautiously optimistic.
Kopah about 5 hours ago
You went to a dollar pledge. Aw, they are never going to answer your questions now. :(
Kopah about 5 hours ago
Hell, they don't answer mine at $100.
Stormonu wrote: Did I also catch that Carmen apparently fronted $40K of his own funds for this endeavour so only about $25K is actual backer investment? If so, that really makes me doubt this will successfully fund at all.
He has invested $40k into the game over the last few years (licencing cost, art costs, sculpting costs, etc). The $65k on Kickstarter is actual backer investment.
Stormonu wrote: Carmen apparently fronted $40K of his own funds for this endeavour so only about $25K is actual backer investment?
No, he spend $40,000 of his own money on license fees, sculptors, etc. ignoring the value of his time. That's a sunk cost, money down the toilet. Assuming that it funds at $100k, the $80k he gets after fees will be used to pay for production costs, and hopefully, when all is done, he'll be able to recover his initial "investment" with interest.
If it fails to fund, then he gets nothing, but is hopefully smart enough to cut his losses at $40k. OTOH, he hitched his wagon to Palladium, and believes in Kevin, so we'll see... ____
Note, I sure hope he didn't take out any loans for this, that the $40k he spent is money he just happened to have lying around. If he staked his house to fund this game, his family will be homeless.
Stormonu wrote: Carmen apparently fronted $40K of his own funds for this endeavour so only about $25K is actual backer investment?
No, he spend $40,000 of his own money on license fees, sculptors, etc. ignoring the value of his time. That's a sunk cost, money down the toilet. Assuming that it funds at $100k, the $80k he gets after fees will be used to pay for production costs, and hopefully, when all is done, he'll be able to recover his initial "investment" with interest.
If it fails to fund, then he gets nothing, but is hopefully smart enough to cut his losses at $40k. OTOH, he hitched his wagon to Palladium, and believes in Kevin, so we'll see...
____
Note, I sure hope he didn't take out any loans for this, that the $40k he spent is money he just happened to have lying around. If he staked his house to fund this game, his family will be homeless.
You forgot taxes and such, which will probably be due shortly after the project funds if it does, and while a business can make write offs he will have no write offs to make till next year.
actually it is covered under Kickstarters rules regarding Collaborator's and giving out any private info including pledge amount is a no no.
Do you have a link to that?
All I'm seeing is in the TOS under the heading "Things You Definitely Shouldn't Do" is the following:
"Don’t abuse other users’ personal information. When you use Kickstarter — and especially if you create a successful project — you may receive information about other users, including things like their names, email addresses, and postal addresses. This information is provided for the purpose of participating in a Kickstarter project: don’t use it for other purposes, and don’t abuse it."
Which again, I'm pretty sure the jerk in question is clear of violating.
I'm starting to understand why there were no ripples in the mud puddle...
Information that’s shared with creators & collaborators
When you back a project, the project’s creator will know your account name, the amount you have pledged, and the reward you have selected. Creators never receive backers’ credit card details or other payment information.
If a project you have backed is successfully funded, the creator will receive the email address associated with your Kickstarter account. They may also send you a survey requesting information needed to provide your reward. (For instance, they may need your mailing address, or T-shirt size.) Any information you provide in such surveys will be received by the creator.
Creators have the option to appoint collaborators to help manage their project. These collaborators may be able to access some of the information available to creators (including backers’ names, email addresses, pledge amounts, reward selections, messages, and survey responses), and are required to treat backers’ personal information with the same care and respect as creators are.
Creators and their collaborators may also receive anonymized information about the ways people visit and interact with their project pages, in the form of routine traffic analytics. You can choose not to be included in Google Analytics here.
I dropped my $1 pledge. I was going to do a little trolling but this sad little dumpster fire isn't even that entertaining. It's actually a tad depressing to watch.
The comments section is so bitter and hostile on both sides. If somebody were trying to be genuinely helpful their post would likely be lost in the gakstorm. The response seems to be to wall up against the comments and assume a defensive stance which I can understand given some of the toxicity. However when you dismiss everything that isn't glowing praise as hate then you turn a deaf ear to people who have legit questions and suggestions that could help the KS perform better. Going into Kickstarter requires a strong plan before launch but you also have to make constant adjustments on the fly based on the backer feedback and questions as there will always be things that weren't anticipated or covered well enough in the original plan. So you need to remain open to the flow of ideas, if you shut down and wall off you lose a lot of that report and trust that you've worked so hard to establish.
Nothing can fully prepare you for running a kickstarter aside from having previously run one, so a first time kickstarter is going to be a very rough ride regardless of how much planning and preparation you think you've done. That means you have to keep your hand constantly on the pulse rather than letting go and backing away when things start to get a bit hot to the touch. The baiting and trolling probably sucks but based on all the comments from RRT and even on the PB forums it was obvious it was coming. Despite the looming storm it looks like there was no forethought on how to deal with it and a lot of the replies are being angrily snap fired from the hip. You can't provide a professional image if you are ranting at people, even if they are goading and poking the bear you need to stay even keeled and rise above it. By snapping on people and putting people on blanket ignore you are giving trolls exactly what they want and that's what's currently happening.
They need to step back and put personal ego aside so they can ask how does this impact the plan of action and do I need to make revisions? Yes some people are going to be rude and nasty but you need to ignore that and focus on how their questions relate to the project itself. Sometimes good advice can be a very bitter pill because it's not what you expected or want to hear.
Stormonu wrote: Did I also catch that Carmen apparently fronted $40K of his own funds for this endeavour so only about $25K is actual backer investment? If so, that really makes me doubt this will successfully fund at all.
He has invested $40k into the game over the last few years (licencing cost, art costs, sculpting costs, etc). The $65k on Kickstarter is actual backer investment.
Yesh, at 582 backers, that's over $1K average per backer. That's an insane amount to invest per person, methinks ( ).
Well, this thread is far more entertaining than the RRT and easier to keep track of than the 40K one, so I'll be here a bit more - watching at least. Probably until it hits its funding.
Stormonu wrote: Did I also catch that Carmen apparently fronted $40K of his own funds for this endeavour so only about $25K is actual backer investment? If so, that really makes me doubt this will successfully fund at all.
He has invested $40k into the game over the last few years (licencing cost, art costs, sculpting costs, etc). The $65k on Kickstarter is actual backer investment.
Yesh, at 582 backers, that's over $1K average per backer. That's an insane amount to invest per person, methinks ( ).
The current amount? You added an extra zero, it's $112 average per backer.
Stormonu wrote: Did I also catch that Carmen apparently fronted $40K of his own funds for this endeavour so only about $25K is actual backer investment? If so, that really makes me doubt this will successfully fund at all.
He has invested $40k into the game over the last few years (licencing cost, art costs, sculpting costs, etc). The $65k on Kickstarter is actual backer investment.
Yesh, at 582 backers, that's over $1K average per backer. That's an insane amount to invest per person, methinks ( ).
The current amount? You added an extra zero, it's $112 average per backer.
Obviously, I can't multiply - I only chestburst. That makes much more sense.
Information that’s shared with creators & collaborators
When you back a project, the project’s creator will know your account name, the amount you have pledged, and the reward you have selected. Creators never receive backers’ credit card details or other payment information.
If a project you have backed is successfully funded, the creator will receive the email address associated with your Kickstarter account. They may also send you a survey requesting information needed to provide your reward. (For instance, they may need your mailing address, or T-shirt size.) Any information you provide in such surveys will be received by the creator.
Creators have the option to appoint collaborators to help manage their project. These collaborators may be able to access some of the information available to creators (including backers’ names, email addresses, pledge amounts, reward selections, messages, and survey responses), and are required to treat backers’ personal information with the same care and respect as creators are.
Creators and their collaborators may also receive anonymized information about the ways people visit and interact with their project pages, in the form of routine traffic analytics. You can choose not to be included in Google Analytics here.
Thanks for the link.
I still don't think that particular complaint is gonna be treated how you think it will. I think we've gone down this rabbit hole far enough though, so I'll concede here that you might be correct, even if I have my doubts, and we'll let this tangent die.
Absolutely no questions answered in that "update". Seemed more a Palladium (read: Kevin Siembieda) fluff piece. I especially love how they still tout the movie and video game license (options?) from decades ago. And that Carmen's cred is basically stuff for Palladium and maybe something from Upper Deck; which amounts to just stuff for Palladium overall.
I'm especially flabbergasted as to why in the world they would use those crappy miniatures pictures when the painter has posted some very good ones online. I'm sure he would have given them permission to use them.
Information that’s shared with creators & collaborators
When you back a project, the project’s creator will know your account name, the amount you have pledged, and the reward you have selected. Creators never receive backers’ credit card details or other payment information.
If a project you have backed is successfully funded, the creator will receive the email address associated with your Kickstarter account. They may also send you a survey requesting information needed to provide your reward. (For instance, they may need your mailing address, or T-shirt size.) Any information you provide in such surveys will be received by the creator.
Creators have the option to appoint collaborators to help manage their project. These collaborators may be able to access some of the information available to creators (including backers’ names, email addresses, pledge amounts, reward selections, messages, and survey responses), and are required to treat backers’ personal information with the same care and respect as creators are.
Creators and their collaborators may also receive anonymized information about the ways people visit and interact with their project pages, in the form of routine traffic analytics. You can choose not to be included in Google Analytics here.
Thanks for the link.
I still don't think that particular complaint is gonna be treated how you think it will. I think we've gone down this rabbit hole far enough though, so I'll concede here that you might be correct, even if I have my doubts, and we'll let this tangent die.
Absolutely no questions answered in that "update". Seemed more a Palladium (read: Kevin Siembieda) fluff piece. I especially love how they still tout the movie and video game license (options?) from decades ago. And that Carmen's cred is basically stuff for Palladium and maybe something from Upper Deck; which amounts to just stuff for Palladium overall.
I'm especially flabbergasted as to why in the world they would use those crappy miniatures pictures when the painter has posted some very good ones online. I'm sure he would have given them permission to use them.
Truly amateur hour here.
~Eric
I'm still trying to figure out where they get the millions of people know of Rift's part from, I barely know of anyone here who knows of Rifts and mostly from me.
paulson games wrote: The baiting and trolling probably sucks but based on all the comments from RRT and even on the PB forums it was obvious it was coming. Despite the looming storm it looks like there was no forethought on how to deal with it and a lot of the replies are being angrily snap fired from the hip. You can't provide a professional image if you are ranting at people, even if they are goading and poking the bear you need to stay even keeled and rise above it. By snapping on people and putting people on blanket ignore you are giving trolls exactly what they want and that's what's currently happening.
Yeah, it was pretty fething stupid of Carmen "Casey" Bellaire to start his Rifts campaign by baiting the RRT backers in the RRT Comments, and poking them. He tangled with the bull, and he got the horns!
Hey John, it's their business, I NEED nothing from them as a backer, but as a consumer I WANT something. I'm not here to massage their egos, I want a quality RIFTS IP product. The onus is not in me to generate a community of happy spirited people who will "spread the word". I've offered to help but we're all still being ignored.
Rache Bartmoss 14 minutes ago
You guys are assuming so much. I don't want the kickstarter to fail. I want prospective backers to be aware of the risks involved so they make ibformed decisions.
There is nothing aggressive about that at all.
Talizvar about 2 hours ago
I will own my "vitriol".
I feel it is justified as a consumer.
Accountability for their actions is key.
Carmen needs his group to prove they are truly independent and not being used by PB.
They do that, I have no beef with them (other than giving PB money in any way... ;-) )
Also, there's this comment:
Arete about 2 hours ago
I'm still concerned about Carmen's lack of appearance here. A check shows he hasn't even logged onto Kickstarter at all today.
Not, "Hasn't commented" but... Hasn't logged on since yesterday.
Hasn't commented for a few days now. With -very- recent history, that's... highly concerning to me.
I'm not optimistic about this project, but, since the miniature sculpts have already been paid for and Savage Worlds: RIFTS has been published, mebbe PEG could get the files from Carmen and make the miniatures (PEG has various miniatures for their Savage World worlds, and the Savage Worlds rules can use miniatures). They'll be in metal, so will be more expensive than plastic, but at least they'll be made and can use the SW RIFTS ruleset.
This is what I tried to type by phone but rather failed.
"@RH How can you say with straight face that Palladium Books isn't involved with the kickstarter... Scroll to the bottom of this page and employees are list not as licensers, but as collaborators... Also, if there listing is in error than may I suggest you remove them... There have been trolls and legit questions please address the questions make a list... If you cannot tell, which questions are legit, which based on your update, may be the case-this project is doomed. The begining of a kickstarter is not about you first, it is about the project first... Your updates look like they are straight from the If I Did It Kevin Siembedia Handbook.... The difference being his KS was funded before he pulled this crap."
My initial reaction to the new Stretch Goals was "Eh, they think 10k is enough to cut steel for 5 Skelebots + manufacturing? Optimistic aren't they?"
Not at all, really. Going by the Heavy Gear KS, cutting a steel mold is around 10k. Thing is, one mold will cast well more than 5 figures, especially if they're one piece figures. At least if your casting company isn't blowing smoke up your behind about the need to have separate molds and a billion pieces per mini.
My initial reaction to the new Stretch Goals was "Eh, they think 10k is enough to cut steel for 5 Skelebots + manufacturing? Optimistic aren't they?"
Not at all, really. Going by the Heavy Gear KS, cutting a steel mold is around 10k. Thing is, one mold will cast well more than 5 figures, especially if they're one piece figures. At least if your casting company isn't blowing smoke up your behind about the need to have separate molds and a billion pieces per mini.
Problem is those cheap $10K molds are not designed for mass speed productions and usually break down pretty fast.
My initial reaction to the new Stretch Goals was "Eh, they think 10k is enough to cut steel for 5 Skelebots + manufacturing? Optimistic aren't they?"
Not at all, really. Going by the Heavy Gear KS, cutting a steel mold is around 10k. Thing is, one mold will cast well more than 5 figures, especially if they're one piece figures. At least if your casting company isn't blowing smoke up your behind about the need to have separate molds and a billion pieces per mini.
Problem is those cheap $10K molds are not designed for mass speed productions and usually break down pretty fast.
Given the number of units they'll run I doubt that's a big issue.
My initial reaction to the new Stretch Goals was "Eh, they think 10k is enough to cut steel for 5 Skelebots + manufacturing? Optimistic aren't they?"
Not at all, really. Going by the Heavy Gear KS, cutting a steel mold is around 10k. Thing is, one mold will cast well more than 5 figures, especially if they're one piece figures. At least if your casting company isn't blowing smoke up your behind about the need to have separate molds and a billion pieces per mini.
Problem is those cheap $10K molds are not designed for mass speed productions and usually break down pretty fast.
Given the number of units they'll run I doubt that's a big issue.
you would be surprised on one batch we decided to up to a better mold at about $40K since it would save us more on the long run., also for a $10K mold its not steel but aluminum and its a simple flat 2 part mold for molding skinny items (about 1/4" max), we used those kind of molds for custom LEGO weapons and such, problem is the molds kept breaking down after 1,000 pressings.
ced1106 wrote: I'm not optimistic about this project, but, since the miniature sculpts have already been paid for and Savage Worlds: RIFTS has been published, mebbe PEG could get the files from Carmen and make the miniatures (PEG has various miniatures for their Savage World worlds, and the Savage Worlds rules can use miniatures). They'll be in metal, so will be more expensive than plastic, but at least they'll be made and can use the SW RIFTS ruleset.
That's my hope too. SW Rifts is the best thing to come out of the Rifts setting (I'm including the original RPG), and a miniatures line would be a great addition.
Asterios wrote: Problem is those cheap $10K molds are not designed for mass speed productions and usually break down pretty fast.
Given the number of units they'll run I doubt that's a big issue.
Exactly. It's not like Palladium needs to knock out a million copies. They simply need to produce 1,000. That $10k mold is easily good for 10,000 copies, and will still be crisp for the first 1k.
Asterios wrote: Problem is those cheap $10K molds are not designed for mass speed productions and usually break down pretty fast.
Given the number of units they'll run I doubt that's a big issue.
Exactly. It's not like Palladium needs to knock out a million copies. They simply need to produce 1,000. That $10k mold is probably good for 100,000 copies, and will still be crisp for the first 10k.
Problem is that $10K mold only gets you an aluminum mold with a gap space of 6"-8" square and maybe 1/2" depth so they will need to make more then one mold for certain groups and factions like dog boys and so on and thats if it is a very small base, remember these minis are on a base. now if they go with a soft plastic PVC system, it might be around that price but then you get cheap army men quality.
My initial reaction to the new Stretch Goals was "Eh, they think 10k is enough to cut steel for 5 Skelebots + manufacturing? Optimistic aren't they?"
I doubt they are planning on steel molds. They are doing one piece minis out of PVC material similar to what CMON uses for Zombicide or Reaper's Bones line. Those can be done in aluminum molds and typically run around $2-$3k for the molds. You can fit 3-4 models in a mold that size so with the right company you can get low volume PVC stuff milled & molded for a bit under $1k a model. They don't last as long so you might get around 5k pulls out of them but they are far more cost effective than using steel cut molds. Even if this KS funds I don't think they'll be producing anywhere near enough copies that they'd need to worry about mold blow out.
HIPS plastic multi part models (like GW or WGF) need steel molds and is a much more expensive milling process.
Silicone molds for resin are quite cheap but they don't last very long, they only last about 20-30 copies so you are constantly replacing them and it's very labor intensive as they are cut by hand. A mold to do a 28-32mm mini might be $5-10 in material, or less but you spend a lot of man hours on making and replacing them.
If you use spin cast resin you can use vulcanized rubber molds which last for hundreds and hundreds of copies but the result isn't as good as stuff that's done with a pressurized/vacuum system. Finecast uses spincast resin and while it's improved it's still substandard to stuff like FW that uses the pressure/vacuum set up. Spincast resin does significantly cut down the labor involved and you are talking maybe $70-100 a mold vs thousands. Spin cast resin is just a slightly modified version of pewter casting because of the price it's usually why most start up companies have used spincast metal for decades. Metal also wears less on the vulcanized spincast molds so you can get several thousand copies out of them. (Resin causes rubber and silicone to age and wear out faster).
Are you going to sell the miniatures with clear bases or in resin?
No. We are aiming to produce each miniature in plastic, and in one piece including its base.
My magic 8 ball says PVC since you can't do one piece models in HPS at least not if you want any of the poses or detail level they've shown. PVC will handle those elements just fine as it's boardgame piece quality. (Not wargaming style GW or WGF level minis). Zombicide and Star Wars Imperial Assault both use one piece PVC so it's not terrible but it's not all that great either. Bones has some stuff that's one piece but many of the models are multipart that are preassembled.
I'd ask for clarification on the material but I'm not a backer and apparently backing for only $1 means I'd be a dirty peasant hater troll and they wouldn't answer my question anyways
Oh and if this does fund I hope that they learn something from Sedition Wars, PVC has a pretty massive shrink rate of about 20% so if they don't scale up their minis approriately they are going to be rather undersized or end up with weird stretching issues. I'm sure that they'll be safe on that because they'd never stoop to using a cut rate manufacturer and whoever they use will certainly trouble shoot everything in advance for PB/RH.
Yeah, like Paulson said they will most likely go with PVC molds because they are cheap, problem is, you get cheap quality too, also Paulson remember they have the minis attached to the bases which is why I keep thinking of those plastic Army men you buy in bags for $1 at the dollar store, also Silicone molds would be crazy to do, those are ok for the home hobbyist, but not for making massive amount of minis.
Yeah the Rift games comment section is crazy... and I see that "Dakka Dakka Trolls" term used calling us out
means they have came here to read the things said about them.
Most of us realize that RTT is not Carmen's fight to battle; but he is fully aware of the problems it is causing.
Where is Kevin during all of this.. writing his next weekly updated of how juicy (Kevin's words not mine) his
weekly activities are going. but still no time line of where wave 2 is.
People have posted that the Rifts game is planned to bank roll RTT wave 2, then the profits off of it will produce it..
That is a rob Peter to pay Paul kind of thing.. and sounds really bad if smallest amount of truth to it. Trying to
balance something with a week foundation will never end well.
Putting that all aside and RTT didn't exist, would this kick-starter be a good bargain.. the sculpts are average
and linked to rifts only, the model count and quality of components are way below industry standard. The price
don't match with what you are getting..They say it will improve the more money they get... but what if they don't
that means a bunch of people bailing on the project the last day.
I don't feel that most people think Fantasy Flight and others are spoiling us.. we just can tell good from bad.
Yeah I expect them to go with PVC, not HIPS. At $3K, aluminium molds makes more sense. Looking at that number though, it seems the intent is more medium term.
Hypothetically, if this funds, you get 5k pulls out of each mold, you fulfill the 1k+ KS sets; leaving 3k+ sets for retail copies and probably expansion sets. That's not a lot of copies left to turn additional profits so that you can get another mold done to continue production -- especially if you use the normal distribution channels, and thus cannot reap the maximum differences between cost and MSRP.
RH FAQ wrote:Are you going to sell the miniatures with clear bases or in resin? No. We are aiming to produce each miniature in plastic, and in one piece including its base.
My magic 8 ball says PVC
I'd ask for clarification on the material but I'm not a backer and apparently backing for only $1 means I'd be a dirty peasant hater troll and they wouldn't answer my question anyways
Agreed. Zombicide-style plastic minis, but without CMoN's experience of designing for PVC shrinkage? This will end well.
RH won't even answer a $150 fan-friend if they're asking anything but softball questions. ____
Genoside07 wrote: Yeah the Rift games comment section is crazy... and I see that "Dakka Dakka Trolls" term used calling us out means they have came here to read the things said about them.
People have posted that the Rifts game is planned to bank roll RTT wave 2, then the profits off of it will produce it.. That is a rob Peter to pay Paul kind of thing.. and sounds really bad if smallest amount of truth to it.
Putting that all aside and RTT didn't exist, would this kick-starter be a good bargain..
The fan friends should be careful what they wish for. Most of Dakka hasn't bothered to jump into campaign for the comments. I for one, won't touch it. It's toxic, and I won't be associated with it. But from what I read, it's just typical warnings and stuff. Nobody's going /b on them. But if they want real trolling, I'd imagine the hot-headed types would be telling Casey to An Hero from $1 pledges. And the cold-blooded types would create dozens of dummy accounts to pump the campaign over the top without any real money behind it.
If RRT took Rifts money, that would be fair, given that Palladium appears to have used RRT money to finish Rifts NG1 & NG2, in violation of KSTOS.
It's obviously not even close to a good bargain. Now, in theory, it could grow into the $100 pledge, but I doubt it. At least, not without the help of fake pledges to unlock SGs.
So someone on BGG is claiming that the KS is basically copying the shipping paragraphs from CMONs past KS and using that as their own.
"Backers beware - this is a HUGE red flag....even the refund policy is copy and pasted. I'd be very very wary of pledging for this folks.
Pay attention, and do your research.
The latest CMoN shipping quote was pulled from Rising Sun, but the Rifts KS shipping is a virtual carbon-copy of the shipping section from Rise of Moloch. "
If true, I have no idea why they would do that unless CMON is doing the shipping for them. I doubt they can hit the kind of bulkrate CMON has going for them
Eh, I don't care how much money Kevin got, he'd never use it to finish RRT Wave 2 - it would go to some other "worthwhile" project - like maybe Rifts soap.
I'm afraid I don't understand the warning over shipping. If his "research" was to copy C'Mon on shipping cost, as long as it's accurate I don't see it as a problem. I'd only see it as an issue if he can't get that price and it sits at his "warehouse" cuz he don't have the fund to ship it out ala Prodos.
In the end, if I were to find this game in the bargain bin, I'd probably take home a copy. Won't be backing it, though - to many unknown if's on the way to retail, they don't appear to have their ducks in a row for this campaign.
The warning over shipping suggests that the creator didn't do his research -- or any research -- about shipping, so there's no reason whatsoever to believe it would be accurate.
Of course, KS shipping estimates are never accurate, since the more SG's are reached, the more stuff there is to ship, and the longer projects are delayed, the more shipping costs rise.
Then again, if the project doesn't get funded or runs out of money, shipping costs won't matter...!
Stormonu wrote: Eh, I don't care how much money Kevin got, he'd never use it to finish RRT Wave 2 - it would go to some other "worthwhile" project - like maybe Rifts soap.
I'm afraid I don't understand the warning over shipping. If his "research" was to copy C'Mon on shipping cost, as long as it's accurate I don't see it as a problem. I'd only see it as an issue if he can't get that price and it sits at his "warehouse" cuz he don't have the fund to ship it out ala Prodos.
In the end, if I were to find this game in the bargain bin, I'd probably take home a copy. Won't be backing it, though - to many unknown if's on the way to retail, they don't appear to have their ducks in a row for this campaign.
I'm pretty sure CMON gets bulk shipping rates. Plus they get those rates based on the volume metric of their initial offering, which is different from the RIFTs own volume. And that's not counting in the bulk discount. I feel like Carmen may be understating shipping costs if he's just using CMON as a standard.
Stormonu wrote: Eh, I don't care how much money Kevin got, he'd never use it to finish RRT Wave 2 - it would go to some other "worthwhile" project - like maybe Rifts soap.
I'm afraid I don't understand the warning over shipping. If his "research" was to copy C'Mon on shipping cost, as long as it's accurate I don't see it as a problem. I'd only see it as an issue if he can't get that price and it sits at his "warehouse" cuz he don't have the fund to ship it out ala Prodos.
In the end, if I were to find this game in the bargain bin, I'd probably take home a copy. Won't be backing it, though - to many unknown if's on the way to retail, they don't appear to have their ducks in a row for this campaign.
I'm pretty sure CMON gets bulk shipping rates. Plus they get those rates based on the volume metric of their initial offering, which is different from the RIFTs own volume. And that's not counting in the bulk discount. I feel like Carmen may be understating shipping costs if he's just using CMON as a standard.
So you are saying they will have to charge more for shipping if they ever ship it, considering shipping rates are already lined up to go up next year accross the board of the big 3 carriers and who knows what the year after that will be like.
Asterios wrote: So you are saying they will have to charge more for shipping if they ever ship it, considering shipping rates are already lined up to go up next year accross the board of the big 3 carriers and who knows what the year after that will be like.
Sounds right.
BTW, I'll just add that, even if backers pay shipping, that doesn't mean the money will be used for shipping. I've seen KS where the creator probably used shipping money to create additional retail product on the assumption that they would make enough money back to ship to backers. Robotech may have been one of them, although someone please remind me. I did read in the Palladium forum thread for gRIFTS that Carmen wants to make copies for retail sale (?). Assuming he has no more of his own money, and since money from KS funding doesn't explicitly covers retail copies (and often loses money), money reserved for shipping is tempting for creators to use to make retail copies at the same time as KS ones.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another post by a Palladium fan.
Salamandros about 3 hours ago
I paid my $1 to keep up with the Updates on this project initially.
I liked Rifts RPG setting, the system needed some work. I really liked Heroes Unlimited.
When someone had embezzled a bunch of cash from Palladium, I went in person and spent a few hundred dollars on product in hopes that they wouldn't go under.
I backed the Savage Rifts project despite some hesitancy.
So when I come here and the $1pledgers are diminished, that doesn't sit right. I acknowledge that there was a minimal apology, buried in the comments. This Kickstarter will probably fund, but man there re a lot of warning signs that this could be a dud. When you have close to 2000 comments, the Creator (or Collaborators) need to be active. They may have to answer the same question over and over, but that is just part of the deal.
They really need a consultant to help them get their act together
I think I quoted Talizvar before, but he clearly shows his love for Rifts.
Talizvar about 9 hours ago
Your motivations were never unclear but does not hurt to say again.
The staff and resources used unfortunately is so entangled it really is hard to differentiate your company from Palladium Books.
I would suggest a similar introduction of your associates and roles would help.
Then in broad strokes where the project is at and what is "the plan" as best you can reveal.
Unfortunately RRT is a shared burden by association.
I too loved Rifts and had many books that I gave to my younger brother.
I bought the fairly recent TMNT box which used to be a PB licensed product and reminds me of what your product could be. If you have not seen it please look, it too is around $100.
See what you can do to get those production values.
I wish you personally good luck.
Just please be careful of who you list as your "friends", I know something of your experience with my own past and you may have been maneuvered into this difficult situation.
With the addition of the cut and paste info, Information from Paulson Games, ( Which, incidentally had a successful run at casting, gaming, and production process.)
The project needs to honestly be pulled. There is no honest outcome that the project can hold water for less then $50,000.00 in a positive direction. (And I am being generous here.) I do not honestly even see this coming to positive conclusion, even if it DOES get funded.
No project management, no experience casting, no base material, but a hell of a lot of "Champagne Wishes and Caviar Dreams."
As Alpherius has said earlier, I am no fan of Schadenfreude, and THIS whole !@#$show is abound with it. Honestly, if you have a buck pledge just to gak around with these ... non professional game designer wanna-bees, just do them courtesy of pulling the trigger and put this horse down. The worst thing in the world, with the information at hand would be for them to fund this project and be "Successful".
As a gamer, I am offended, as a professional troubleshooter, I am in Gakking shock.
Asterios is almost correct, even though the discussion for shipping is lacking, as is the material that will be used to cast, the caster, the rules set, the boxing/ packaging, the rule book binding, the paper, printing, photography, components, the ..... etc.etc. etc.....
Information cut and pasted from a CMON project, more then likely having absolutely ZERO research into what exactly they cut and pasted. Molds, nonexistent. If anything, those figures from the pictures are test runs, or home slice. The rules- nonexistent. The maps, add-ons for "Rifts materials" look like a sale to unload excess printed stock of overproduction to lighten Pallidiums warehouse/ storage unit. The "Pleas for help", though, not at all having to do with the project, tell you that they are thin skinned "artist" types, lacking adult clarity and focus. The "Team" roster, also- lacking.
All of this, and the "Project" ( and I use that term loosely) supposedly needs 2 years ( 2019) to accomplish Completion of Project Scope...
And then there is Kevin's idea of "Help"....
" We don’t know whether he’ll return to game design and try to launch his company or the Rifts® board game in which he has invested everything. If not, that’s a tragedy of another sort, because Carmen has so much to offer. Before his suicide attempt, Carmen regarded game design as pure joy and tackled it with a childlike sense of wonder. All he wanted to do was to make games. After this, I don’t know.
I’m afraid this is not my most eloquent post. I am still shaken. I’m scared for him. Terrified. And saddened beyond words.
Please pray for Carmen’s swift recovery, emotionally and physically, and that Carmen is able to find the strength to once again follow his dreams and dare to try to make them come true. I want that not just for Carmen, but because he has a treasure trove of wonderful games locked in his imagination waiting to come out. Games that will bring joy and laughter to all of us.
I hope and pray there is a happy ending coming. Our love to Carmen and his family.
Kevin Siembieda
President, Palladium Books "
(From the Robotech Kickstarter page)
As a Dakka Dakka "Troll", I honestly fear for these people's sanity, and hope that they can take rejection better in real life, then in the confines of the safety of the Internet.
. I am watching a train wreck, and it is honestly not at all fun to see some of the !@#$ coming out of it. With absolutely zero skin in the game, the best thing for them to do, at this point is to pull the project, come back later with a solid plan/ project, and try again, without the additional baggage of Robotech, Palladium, and Kevin !@#$ing Siembieda snapping at its ass.
With "Support" like that, Pulling the project, and developing a serious project, plan, and product is the best course of action.
gRifts has as of 5am Friday, 599 backers. 502 pledge level backers and 97 people at the Watcher level.
Palladium's FaceBook page, which at this point mostly consists of fanatical fans (either pro or con PB, they're fervent), had an advert update for gRifts on Monday. Since PB (or FB) disabled the "dislike" option, we can ignore the con PB fans. There are 959 likes for that post.
So, even amongst the most pro fanbase they have, and with almost 1000 fans liking it, barely half (assuming all actual backers are among those likes, an unlikely event) are supporting the project.
It's kind of a weird situation for Rogue Studios. Either PB is their only support base, or the percentage of PB fans who are willing to back, shrinks at a proportional rate to the number of backers from other sources.
Similarly, PB touts on their website that there have been 300K copies of the Rifts rulebook sold, and between 1.4M and 2M Rifts players (and that's apparently a conservative estimate.
So, these are the numbers.
People who liked the announcement, backed (at best), a rate of ~52%.
People who have bought the Rifts rulebook backed at less than 1/5th of one percent.
People who have played Rifts, backed at between 1/30th and 1/40th of one percent.
Just found those numbers interesting, given the anemic progress the campaign is making.
Methinks (hey Alpharius!) that the fanbase market isn't as big as PB or Carmen estimated. Honestly, it's performing well below what I expected. The running of the campaign hasn't helped, but when I saw it was going to be a 100K target, I figured it'd be close, if not past that already. That even if you use the average of the second through fourth day numbers (6K), it's still a week away from funding, giving them all the benefits of the doubt. And given the downward trend, I'm not even expecting that. So... yeah.
Some have suggested he scrap this campaign, take a breath, and come back with a more polished launch. But with the admission he's already sunk $40K into this, and license pressures making this even more costly, I'm not sure he can afford to. But I'm really not sure he can afford for it to fail, or as others have suggested, for it to succeed. If he's already in for 40K, and the costs on this are pushing breaking even on the ACTUAL funding, investing more for a retail market that just might not be there (aka PB's crapload of backstock of RRT), this really does look like he's thrice damned, barring some miracle. He can't back out and relaunch (too much debt), a failed campaign is going to impact a career in gaming, and a successful but mediocre campaign is not going to do his reputation any favors. And gods help him if it funds, and things go pear shaped.
In all honesty, I'm rooting for Carmen. But I'm not betting on him. He truly jumped on the wrong horse, and I honestly think that choice did more harm than good. A unique game universe might have had a chance, but honestly, the cost vs value of the project (and the general mishandling in days that took PB months to accomplish) would have had me passing regardless. So I'm not sure whether using the gRifts universe was a net benefit at this point.
The figures shown at salute and in this thread are 3d-prints, and not particularly good ones. I assume some prep work was done prior to painting, but you can still see the layer marking very clearly on the glitterboy's gun.
Asterios wrote: well on the humorous side the project is already in the negative for the days totals.
Spoiler:
I thought this wasn't real.. so I went to the site and entered the information on a couple of other kickstarters... just looking at daily backers data
Most kick-starters have a large amount of backers the first few days, then drop off to a few hundred add each day..then another large count at the end.
Rifts had a few hundred the first day.. then drop to around forty and yesterday they had a NEGATIVE THREE backers... that means more backers are leaving faster than adding...
Wow.. How not to do something... but it is their choice on how it's handled
See when Carmen came to the RRT forums, and then went ballistic I talked to him after that, I told him straight up he needs to put as much distance as he can between him and Kevin and PB, I told him he should come out with his own IP and design his own game that way he can do thing on his own time and his own terms, and it is better if he came out with his own system for his flag ship game.
But alas he went down the rabbit hole with Kevin and PB and its gotten to the point his only hope is if his project fails and does not fund.
Asterios wrote: well on the humorous side the project is already in the negative for the days totals.
Spoiler:
I thought this wasn't real.. so I went to the site and entered the information on a couple of other kickstarters... just looking at daily backers data
Most kick-starters have a large amount of backers the first few days, then drop off to a few hundred add each day..then another large count at the end.
Rifts had a few hundred the first day.. then drop to around forty and yesterday they had a NEGATIVE THREE backers... that means more backers are leaving faster than adding...
Wow.. How not to do something... but it is their choice on how it's handled
The number of backers is probably less important than the negative dollar value. If $1 accounts are purged or leave, that has no real effect on the KS aside from looking bad. Negative money, or static money, is REALLY bad. People abandon Kickstarters that stall because they fear they'll 'lose money' if the KS doesn't fund - yes, I know, it doesn't work like that, but also the project becomes more risky if it barely funds, or there is lower value in it if no stretch goals are reached.
If this Kickstarter stalls for several days, it's basically done for good. The Rifts fanboy market of backers is pretty much already committed, though the weekend will be telling. Momentum is very important.
Andrew Ferguson 3 minutes ago
@Graham maybe it's just the trolls bailing out now that they know that there is legitimate interest in the game. I'm hoping that RHs use the relative quiet right now to drive this KS forward.
seriously they believe that? seriously? ok if we take all the $1 trolls out they would not even match up to a third of the money they lost today.
Morgan Vening wrote: Some have suggested he scrap this campaign, take a breath, and come back with a more polished launch. But with the admission he's already sunk $40K into this, and license pressures making this even more costly, I'm not sure he can afford to. But I'm really not sure he can afford for it to fail, or as others have suggested, for it to succeed. If he's already in for 40K, and the costs on this are pushing breaking even on the ACTUAL funding, investing more for a retail market that just might not be there (aka PB's crapload of backstock of RRT), this really does look like he's thrice damned, barring some miracle. He can't back out and relaunch (too much debt), a failed campaign is going to impact a career in gaming, and a successful but mediocre campaign is not going to do his reputation any favors.
And gods help him if it funds, and things go pear shaped.
Yeah, Casey gakked the bed here, and now he's gonna have to lie in it. Not that there was ever a chance of this succeeding by him. While he might do just fine as a Rifts writer, he's obviously not a Project Manager, to say nothing of being a Marketer or Accountant. At this point, he should expect the campaign to collapse, and he should be thankful that it will do so. He will have spent a lot of money on his wannabe Board Game Designer hobby, but hopefully, that'll be the end of it, that his family won't end up on the streets. As for his gaming reputation, Kevin already killed that in sharing the news of Carmen's failed suicide attempt.
The hypothetical of his funding and then having to deliver is zero, so no popcorn for those on the sidelines.
Best case, he regroups and relaunches on IGG, where he gets whatever he gets (probably $40k), makes his family whole, and walks way from Rifts like Kevin walked away from RRT. If the Rifts fans get screwed? Feth 'em. They definitely shoulda known better by now. ____
ETA Kicktraq mini-chart: -$150 for the day so far. Now that it's negative, expect the rats start fleeing...
JohnHwangDD wrote: As for his gaming reputation, Kevin already killed that in sharing the news of Carmen's failed suicide attempt.
Why would a suicide attempt destroy Carmen's gaming reputation?
I understand people's reluctance to financially support someone in the throes of a mental health crisis, and Carmen's issues from only a few months ago are concerning in regards to him managing a KS campaign due to the stresses involved, but are you suggesting that the suicide attempt now makes Carmen as a writer and designer a pariah in the industry? If so, why? Lots of creative people suffer from mental health issues, and I'd be shocked if a sizable number of people involved in the gaming industry haven't thought about, attempted, or know someone who has attempted suicide in the past.
I guess I don't understand the point you are trying to make.
The issue is his ability to manage stress. If I'm up against a deadline, someone who can't handle pressure isn't going to be my go-to.
And then it's the nonsense around the attempt. He went out of his way to create the drama that led to that attempt. That's also a big strike in terms of people that I want on my team.
Basically, the guy stirs up a lot of gak, but can't handle it when it's his turn to lick the spoon clean.
It's about professionalism. His post on the RTT forum was peak unprofessional. That will be worse for him, in the long run, than any suicide attempt. Nobody wants to hire someone who is going to go off the chain and antagonize or alienate potential customers.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The issue is his ability to manage stress. If I'm up against a deadline, someone who can't handle pressure isn't going to be my go-to.
And then it's the nonsense around the attempt. He went out of his way to create the drama that led to that attempt. That's also a big strike in terms of people that I want on my team.
Basically, the guy stirs up a lot of gak, but can't handle it when it's his turn to lick the spoon clean.
Okay, so his gaming reputation with you is destroyed. Thanks for clarifying. With the stigma mental health has in the US, I was curious about your previous statement especially regarding the larger industry as a whole.
Regarding stress management, that is something that comes from treatment, education, and self-exploration. If Carmen is getting the treatment he indicated he is receiving, then stress management should be less of a factor going forward as long as he continues working on treatment.
As for the other stuff, yeah, bad decisions were made. Hopefully what Carmen is learning in therapy will help in those areas as well.
JohnHwangDD wrote: As for his gaming reputation, Kevin already killed that in sharing the news of Carmen's failed suicide attempt.
Why would a suicide attempt destroy Carmen's gaming reputation?
I understand people's reluctance to financially support someone in the throes of a mental health crisis, and Carmen's issues from only a few months ago are concerning in regards to him managing a KS campaign due to the stresses involved, but are you suggesting that the suicide attempt now makes Carmen as a writer and designer a pariah in the industry? If so, why? Lots of creative people suffer from mental health issues, and I'd be shocked if a sizable number of people involved in the gaming industry haven't thought about, attempted, or know someone who has attempted suicide in the past.
I guess I don't understand the point you are trying to make.
Ok answer this, are you going to hire a racist as your PR guy? are you going to hire a drug user/dealer as your pharmacist? are you going to hire a drunk with DUI's as your driver? are you going to hire a known thief to watch your items? are you going to hire someone who cannot handle stress and has attempted to commit suicide into a highly stressful job?(and make no qualms about it, the gaming industry is highly stressful, especially with deadlines and anger towards a company which happens with all companies) its not about being a pariah, its about not putting a square peg into a round hole.
and on another note the kickstarter has gone up $96. for the days totals. that will be a serious kick in their behind me thinks.
We should be realistic about the strengths and weaknesses of the people involved in important positions within a campaign, but there's a measure of ghoulishness surrounding Carmen's struggles, and the paper thin veneer of 'I'm not trying to stigmatize his situation and thereby help perpetuate the problem, but allow me to do it a bit anyway.'
Struggling with depression is a personal battle that ideally involves professional help and a familial/friend/social support structure.
It does not include comparing them to 'racists, addicts, drunks and thieves'.
Asterios wrote: See when Carmen came to the RRT forums, and then went ballistic I talked to him after that, I told him straight up he needs to put as much distance as he can between him and Kevin and PB, I told him he should come out with his own IP and design his own game that way he can do thing on his own time and his own terms, and it is better if he came out with his own system for his flag ship game.
IIRC, Someone, perhaps yourself, made this suggestion to distance himself in the PB gRIFTS subforum. His reply was that he'd make a Facebook page for RH.
I still hope those miniatures get made, since there's demand (and there's already the Savage RIFTS rules for them). The $67K at least gives a rough idea of how well the miniatures would sell.
Asterios wrote: See when Carmen came to the RRT forums, and then went ballistic I talked to him after that, I told him straight up he needs to put as much distance as he can between him and Kevin and PB, I told him he should come out with his own IP and design his own game that way he can do thing on his own time and his own terms, and it is better if he came out with his own system for his flag ship game.
IIRC, Someone, perhaps yourself, made this suggestion to distance himself in the PB gRIFTS subforum. His reply was that he'd make a Facebook page for RH.
I still hope those miniatures get made, since there's demand (and there's already the Savage RIFTS rules for them). The $67K at least gives a rough idea of how well the miniatures would sell.
wasn't me, I don't go to the kiss PB's behind forums, and a facebook page is not distancing oneself from PB.
Forar wrote: We should be realistic about the strengths and weaknesses of the people involved in important positions within a campaign, but there's a measure of ghoulishness surrounding Carmen's struggles, and the paper thin veneer of 'I'm not trying to stigmatize his situation and thereby help perpetuate the problem, but allow me to do it a bit anyway.'
Struggling with depression is a personal battle that ideally involves professional help and a familial/friend/social support structure.
It does not include comparing them to 'racists, addicts, drunks and thieves'.
Actually it does, addicts and drunks are a mental issue too, so are racists and thieves according to some, there is no difference, if anybody seriously cared about Carmen they would have told him to put this whole thing on hold until he was in a much more stable situation, he is not which was evident by him vanishing from the project all together shortly after it started, the pressure got to him and he could not handle it, and this is nothing compared to what he will encounter later down the road if the project funds.
Forar wrote: We should be realistic about the strengths and weaknesses of the people involved in important positions within a campaign, but there's a measure of ghoulishness surrounding Carmen's struggles, and the paper thin veneer of 'I'm not trying to stigmatize his situation and thereby help perpetuate the problem, but allow me to do it a bit anyway.'
Struggling with depression is a personal battle that ideally involves professional help and a familial/friend/social support structure.
It does not include comparing them to 'racists, addicts, drunks and thieves'.
Seriously.
It also is a problem that can be treated and the roadblocks overcome. A person is able to be successful while battling depression.
When I created this game, all I wanted to do was make an amazing board game that shared my love of RIFTS with the fans. And as we all know, RIFTS has a passionate fan base; people who love the setting & characters as much as I do.
When I launched the Kickstarter, I believed that I was ready. But in reading your comments, many of you have raised valid concerns that would only make the game better. And I would like the chance to address those concerns. I want this game to be a huge success, and I believe that many of you do too; so that is why I am going to cancel this Kickstarter.
As many of you have pointed out, other companies have done this and then come back with an improved game/Kickstarter campaign that has gone on to be a huge success. And that is my intention as well; to take a step back, regroup, and address people’s concerns in order to create the best game possible.
I hope that when we do come back, you will be there. Fans of board games like me. Fans of Rifts. Fans of our community. Me and my team truly appreciate your support and concerns that you’ve expressed throughout this campaign. It is our intention to return in kind.
Special thanks to all of the backers, support team, and those who advertised the Rifts Kickstarter, who generously contributed their hard earnings, time, exposure and support.
JohnHwangDD wrote: As for his gaming reputation, Kevin already killed that in sharing the news of Carmen's failed suicide attempt.
Why would a suicide attempt destroy Carmen's gaming reputation?
I understand people's reluctance to financially support someone in the throes of a mental health crisis, and Carmen's issues from only a few months ago are concerning in regards to him managing a KS campaign due to the stresses involved, but are you suggesting that the suicide attempt now makes Carmen as a writer and designer a pariah in the industry? If so, why? Lots of creative people suffer from mental health issues, and I'd be shocked if a sizable number of people involved in the gaming industry haven't thought about, attempted, or know someone who has attempted suicide in the past.
I guess I don't understand the point you are trying to make.
Ok answer this, are you going to hire a racist as your PR guy? are you going to hire a drug user/dealer as your pharmacist? are you going to hire a drunk with DUI's as your driver? are you going to hire a known thief to watch your items? are you going to hire someone who cannot handle stress and has attempted to commit suicide into a highly stressful job?(and make no qualms about it, the gaming industry is highly stressful, especially with deadlines and anger towards a company which happens with all companies) its not about being a pariah, its about not putting a square peg into a round hole.
and on another note the kickstarter has gone up $96. for the days totals. that will be a serious kick in their behind me thinks.
Today I learned that mental health problems, including depression and suicidal thoughts/actions are equivalent to drug abuse, alcohol abuse and theft.
Thanks! I love learning new things.
The stigma associated with mental health treatment is serious. It is why people don't get treatment and why mental health issues lead to plethora other social issues. And that stigma is glaring in your post.
I understand not wanting to financially back someone who is in the middle of a crisis. I stated as such in my initial post. But JohnHwang specifically stated that Carmen's suicide attempt "killed" his reputation. That isn't a throw away statement, and I wanted clarification. The implication I took from his statement being that anyone who attempts suicide or has mental health problems is persona non grata in the industry.
That shouldn't be the case if a person is making good will efforts with treatment.
Now, I agree that a suicide attempt in February and a Kickstarter launch in May of the same year would generate serious red flags. And rightfully so.
3+ months is not enough time to begin working out the underlying issues that brought Carmen to that decision.
However, your post is bs, and it further propagates negative stereotypes about mental health. So stop.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The issue is his ability to manage stress. If I'm up against a deadline, someone who can't handle pressure isn't going to be my go-to.
And then it's the nonsense around the attempt. He went out of his way to create the drama that led to that attempt. That's also a big strike in terms of people that I want on my team.
Basically, the guy stirs up a lot of gak, but can't handle it when it's his turn to lick the spoon clean.
Okay, so his gaming reputation with you is destroyed. Thanks for clarifying. With the stigma mental health has in the US, I was curious about your previous statement especially regarding the larger industry as a whole.
Regarding stress management, that is something that comes from treatment, education, and self-exploration. If Carmen is getting the treatment he indicated he is receiving, then stress management should be less of a factor going forward as long as he continues working on treatment.
As for the other stuff, yeah, bad decisions were made. Hopefully what Carmen is learning in therapy will help in those areas as well.
Let's say that I were to attempt to commercialize KOG light. If I were to do so I certainly wouldn't want Casey on my team. The biggest issue was his sheer unprofessionalism of barging into the RRT Comments; that he handled the richly-deserved blowback with a suicide attempt made it that much worse. The worst part is that I don't believe that he's yet to apologize for what he's done. But the fact that he's bipolar? That's a much smaller issue, assuming that he'd be actively working to keep it managed. I just can't have someone on the team running off like a loose cannon and actively poisoning wells, no matter how talented. The damage caused by such an action would exceed any possible contribution he might make. As a manager, that's just unacceptable. And if I'm being totally honest with myself, I shouldn't be the marketing point man on KOG light KS, either. I'd probably work through a experienced publisher like CMoN, who has a professional marketing team, and the ability to source and deliver far more effectively than I can. However, I can work with them to determine a minimum viable product, and appropriate stretch goals to create a compelling campaign. I just know I shouldn't be handling the bulk of the communication, especially not in the Comments. But that's me, not him.
I see that Casey has made a LOT of EXCEEDINGLY poor decisions, and is very likely acting out of desperation. But I see that all entirely due to the very deep hole that he dug for himself. Nobody held a gun to his head and told him to sink $40k into a Rifts boardgame, and then kick off the mass-marketing for said boardgame by antagonizing the RRT backers. As far as I can tell, Casey is unprofessional and irresponsible, makes incredibly poor financial and managerial decisions. Hopefully, Casey can learn to take responsibility for his actions and then try to make things right. Hopefully, he can learn to make better decisions as well.
As far as mental health and Drug abuse... I work for a consumer direct (obamacare) division of a big insurance company. Drug abuse care and counseling in considered mental health...
JohnHwangDD wrote: As for his gaming reputation, Kevin already killed that in sharing the news of Carmen's failed suicide attempt.
Why would a suicide attempt destroy Carmen's gaming reputation?
I understand people's reluctance to financially support someone in the throes of a mental health crisis, and Carmen's issues from only a few months ago are concerning in regards to him managing a KS campaign due to the stresses involved, but are you suggesting that the suicide attempt now makes Carmen as a writer and designer a pariah in the industry? If so, why? Lots of creative people suffer from mental health issues, and I'd be shocked if a sizable number of people involved in the gaming industry haven't thought about, attempted, or know someone who has attempted suicide in the past.
I guess I don't understand the point you are trying to make.
Ok answer this, are you going to hire a racist as your PR guy? are you going to hire a drug user/dealer as your pharmacist? are you going to hire a drunk with DUI's as your driver? are you going to hire a known thief to watch your items? are you going to hire someone who cannot handle stress and has attempted to commit suicide into a highly stressful job?(and make no qualms about it, the gaming industry is highly stressful, especially with deadlines and anger towards a company which happens with all companies) its not about being a pariah, its about not putting a square peg into a round hole.
and on another note the kickstarter has gone up $96. for the days totals. that will be a serious kick in their behind me thinks.
Today I learned that mental health problems, including depression and suicidal thoughts/actions are equivalent to drug abuse, alcohol abuse and theft.
Thanks! I love learning new things.
The stigma associated with mental health treatment is serious. It is why people don't get treatment and why mental health issues lead to plethora other social issues. And that stigma is glaring in your post.
I understand not wanting to financially back someone who is in the middle of a crisis. I stated as such in my initial post. But JohnHwang specifically stated that Carmen's suicide attempt "killed" his reputation. That isn't a throw away statement, and I wanted clarification. The implication I took from his statement being that anyone who attempts suicide or has mental health problems is persona non grata in the industry.
That shouldn't be the case if a person is making good will efforts with treatment.
Now, I agree that a suicide attempt in February and a Kickstarter launch in May of the same year would generate serious red flags. And rightfully so.
3+ months is not enough time to begin working out the underlying issues that brought Carmen to that decision.
However, your post is bs, and it further propagates negative stereotypes about mental health. So stop.
Actually Alcoholism can be linked to depression and such, you know mental disorders, so can drug addiction, not too mention they can be chemical imbalances too so can depression, my wife suffers from Bi-Polar disorder and I would not want her in a highly stressful field since that can effect her greatly and she has her Bi-Polar under control thru medication, and I love her greatly but because I love her I would not recommend her for a highly stressful job.
Furthermore no one said Carmen"Casey" is persona non-grata from the industry, but he would be in highly stressful positions which he is in right now. and my post does not propagate negative stereotypes, it does show that you do not put someone who suffers or nearly committed suicide in a highly stressful position with less then a year of his incident or without a medical leave if the situation is known, the situation that screwed Carmen"Casey" is Kevin made his situation known in an open update, and then Carmen further compounded it by making it known in an open update.
As far as mental health and Drug abuse... I work for a consumer direct (obamacare) division of a big insurance company. Drug abuse care and counseling in considered mental health...
probably the best thing they could have done, they were not ready, they were not prepared and this project had way too many ways to go south.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I see that Casey has made a LOT of EXCEEDINGLY poor decisions, and is very likely acting out of desperation. But I see that all entirely due to the very deep hole that he dug for himself. Nobody held a gun to his head and told him to sink $40k into a Rifts boardgame, and then kick off the mass-marketing for said boardgame by antagonizing the RRT backers. As far as I can tell, Casey is unprofessional and irresponsible, makes incredibly poor financial and managerial decisions. Hopefully, Casey can learn to take responsibility for his actions and then try to make things right. Hopefully, he can learn to make better decisions as well.
All of those are excellent reasons for not wanting someone on a development team. But those reasons weren't evident in the statement that I was inquiring about which is why I asked for clarification.
It is bad enough that this guy had such a personal episode broadcast to the world, I just didn't want to see the community using that event as justification for shunning his work. There seem to be plenty of other reasons why he could be passed on as a writer, PR guy, developer, whatever, and those reasons should be the metric for determining his value as a collaborator--not his struggles with mental health-related issues.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I see that Casey has made a LOT of EXCEEDINGLY poor decisions, and is very likely acting out of desperation. But I see that all entirely due to the very deep hole that he dug for himself. Nobody held a gun to his head and told him to sink $40k into a Rifts boardgame, and then kick off the mass-marketing for said boardgame by antagonizing the RRT backers. As far as I can tell, Casey is unprofessional and irresponsible, makes incredibly poor financial and managerial decisions. Hopefully, Casey can learn to take responsibility for his actions and then try to make things right. Hopefully, he can learn to make better decisions as well.
All of those are excellent reasons for not wanting someone on a development team. But those reasons weren't evident in the statement that I was inquiring about which is why I asked for clarification.
It is bad enough that this guy had such a personal episode broadcast to the world, I just didn't want to see the community using that event as justification for shunning his work. There seem to be plenty of other reasons why he could be passed on as a writer, PR guy, developer, whatever, and those reasons should be the metric for determining his value as a collaborator--not his struggles with mental health-related issues.
And yet all those reasons could also be linked back to his mental health too. think about it he acted irrationally, unproffessionally and irresponsibly, in fact i'm wondering if he may suffer from Bi-Polar disorder since a lot of his actions I have seen in my wife too when she had issues or was under stress.
As it goes at least he listened, he was not ready, the game was sub-par then what he could have made it, and he still needs to put up a 1,000 foot thick wall between him and PB.
YOU SPOKE... WE LISTENED
16 Comments
Like
5 likes
Hey Everyone,
When I created this game, all I wanted to do was make an amazing board game that shared my love of RIFTS with the fans. And as we all know, RIFTS has a passionate fan base; people who love the setting & characters as much as I do.
When I launched the Kickstarter, I believed that I was ready. But in reading your comments, many of you have raised valid concerns that would only make the game better. And I would like the chance to address those concerns. I want this game to be a huge success, and I believe that many of you do too; so that is why I am going to cancel this Kickstarter.
As many of you have pointed out, other companies have done this and then come back with an improved game/Kickstarter campaign that has gone on to be a huge success. And that is my intention as well; to take a step back, regroup, and address people’s concerns in order to create the best game possible.
I hope that when we do come back, you will be there. Fans of board games like me. Fans of Rifts. Fans of our community. Me and my team truly appreciate your support and concerns that you’ve expressed throughout this campaign. It is our intention to return in kind.
Special thanks to all of the backers, support team, and those who advertised the Rifts Kickstarter, who generously contributed their hard earnings, time, exposure and support.
Sincerely,
Carmen
Also will someone tell Shane on their comments section Carmen brought the anger on him on the RRT forums for what he said there, that was his doing. you just don't go telling people who have been waiting 4 years for product that if his project does not fund he will make sure RRT burns.
I'm a bit taken aback it was in a state it could be cancelled. I think a wise move though - perhaps better luck next time around, especially if the concerns are actually addressed.
It wasn't going to fund, as there were too many open items, and no plan to reveal things that would have driven funding high enough. Pulling the plug sooner is better than later.
I suspect it relaunches at $50k after addressing some of the numerous concerns raised.
Locked? As I understand it, once a KS is funded, the thread goes to one of the subforums. I guess this would go to boardgames, although the gameplay video shows the game has mechanics closer to a miniatures skirmish game. (IMO, what they showed wasn't anything new, but is quite accessible to RIFTS fan new to miniatures skirmish games.)
Said it earlier, but most of the interest was in the miniatures, and the costs for them have been paid, so I hope the miniatures resurface one way or another. Carmen supposedly did miniatures casting for Palladium at one time, so Palladium releasing metal miniatures and perhaps a skirmish ruleset for them at retail (eg. webstore) would still be possible, since metal miniatures do not require the upfront cash that plastic miniatures do. Or, since PEG has released the Savage Worlds RIFT RPG, which can use miniatures, that could be another option.
Asterios wrote: Actually Alcoholism can be linked to depression and such, you know mental disorders, so can drug addiction, not too mention they can be chemical imbalances too so can depression, my wife suffers from Bi-Polar disorder and I would not want her in a highly stressful field since that can effect her greatly and she has her Bi-Polar under control thru medication, and I love her greatly but because I love her I would not recommend her for a highly stressful job.
Furthermore no one said Carmen"Casey" is persona non-grata from the industry, but he would be in highly stressful positions which he is in right now. and my post does not propagate negative stereotypes, it does show that you do not put someone who suffers or nearly committed suicide in a highly stressful position with less then a year of his incident or without a medical leave if the situation is known, the situation that screwed Carmen"Casey" is Kevin made his situation known in an open update, and then Carmen further compounded it by making it known in an open update.
While what you say is true, alchoholism can be linked to depression, as can chemical imbalances in the brain, that does not justify the statements you made in your previous post.
You compared someone who attempted suicide to a racist, a drug addict and a drunk. That you have a loved one who has a mental health ailment makes your post all the more awful since you should know better! If your wife was compared to those things because she is bi-polar would that be right? No. It obviously wouldn't. She is more than her disease. Just like this Carmen person is more than his suicide attempt.
You made a bad analogy.
Carmen has issues which he is supposedly working through with professionals. That is great for him, and perhaps in time he will be able to resume work on his passion project.
Smokestack wrote: As far as mental health and Drug abuse... I work for a consumer direct (obamacare) division of a big insurance company. Drug abuse care and counseling in considered mental health...
Yes, that was exactly the point I was making. Totes.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I see that Casey has made a LOT of EXCEEDINGLY poor decisions, and is very likely acting out of desperation. But I see that all entirely due to the very deep hole that he dug for himself. Nobody held a gun to his head and told him to sink $40k into a Rifts boardgame, and then kick off the mass-marketing for said boardgame by antagonizing the RRT backers. As far as I can tell, Casey is unprofessional and irresponsible, makes incredibly poor financial and managerial decisions. Hopefully, Casey can learn to take responsibility for his actions and then try to make things right. Hopefully, he can learn to make better decisions as well.
All of those are excellent reasons for not wanting someone on a development team. But those reasons weren't evident in the statement that I was inquiring about which is why I asked for clarification.
It is bad enough that this guy had such a personal episode broadcast to the world, I just didn't want to see the community using that event as justification for shunning his work. There seem to be plenty of other reasons why he could be passed on as a writer, PR guy, developer, whatever, and those reasons should be the metric for determining his value as a collaborator--not his struggles with mental health-related issues.
And yet all those reasons could also be linked back to his mental health too. think about it he acted irrationally, unproffessionally and irresponsibly, in fact i'm wondering if he may suffer from Bi-Polar disorder since a lot of his actions I have seen in my wife too when she had issues or was under stress.
As it goes at least he listened, he was not ready, the game was sub-par then what he could have made it, and he still needs to put up a 1,000 foot thick wall between him and PB.
Those reasons could be linked to mental health. But that still doesn't justify your analogy of linking mental health sufferers with racists, alcoholics, and drug addicts.
Asterios wrote: Actually Alcoholism can be linked to depression and such, you know mental disorders, so can drug addiction, not too mention they can be chemical imbalances too so can depression, my wife suffers from Bi-Polar disorder and I would not want her in a highly stressful field since that can effect her greatly and she has her Bi-Polar under control thru medication, and I love her greatly but because I love her I would not recommend her for a highly stressful job.
Furthermore no one said Carmen"Casey" is persona non-grata from the industry, but he would be in highly stressful positions which he is in right now. and my post does not propagate negative stereotypes, it does show that you do not put someone who suffers or nearly committed suicide in a highly stressful position with less then a year of his incident or without a medical leave if the situation is known, the situation that screwed Carmen"Casey" is Kevin made his situation known in an open update, and then Carmen further compounded it by making it known in an open update.
While what you say is true, alchoholism can be linked to depression, as can chemical imbalances in the brain, that does not justify the statements you made in your previous post.
You compared someone who attempted suicide to a racist, a drug addict and a drunk. That you have a loved one who has a mental health ailment makes your post all the more awful since you should know better! If your wife was compared to those things because she is bi-polar would that be right? No. It obviously wouldn't. She is more than her disease. Just like this Carmen person is more than his suicide attempt.
You made a bad analogy.
Carmen has issues which he is supposedly working through with professionals. That is great for him, and perhaps in time he will be able to resume work on his passion project.
Smokestack wrote: As far as mental health and Drug abuse... I work for a consumer direct (obamacare) division of a big insurance company. Drug abuse care and counseling in considered mental health...
Yes, that was exactly the point I was making. Totes.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I see that Casey has made a LOT of EXCEEDINGLY poor decisions, and is very likely acting out of desperation. But I see that all entirely due to the very deep hole that he dug for himself. Nobody held a gun to his head and told him to sink $40k into a Rifts boardgame, and then kick off the mass-marketing for said boardgame by antagonizing the RRT backers. As far as I can tell, Casey is unprofessional and irresponsible, makes incredibly poor financial and managerial decisions. Hopefully, Casey can learn to take responsibility for his actions and then try to make things right. Hopefully, he can learn to make better decisions as well.
All of those are excellent reasons for not wanting someone on a development team. But those reasons weren't evident in the statement that I was inquiring about which is why I asked for clarification.
It is bad enough that this guy had such a personal episode broadcast to the world, I just didn't want to see the community using that event as justification for shunning his work. There seem to be plenty of other reasons why he could be passed on as a writer, PR guy, developer, whatever, and those reasons should be the metric for determining his value as a collaborator--not his struggles with mental health-related issues.
And yet all those reasons could also be linked back to his mental health too. think about it he acted irrationally, unproffessionally and irresponsibly, in fact i'm wondering if he may suffer from Bi-Polar disorder since a lot of his actions I have seen in my wife too when she had issues or was under stress.
As it goes at least he listened, he was not ready, the game was sub-par then what he could have made it, and he still needs to put up a 1,000 foot thick wall between him and PB.
Those reasons could be linked to mental health. But that still doesn't justify your analogy of linking mental health sufferers with racists, alcoholics, and drug addicts.
The problem is you keep saying I equated mental illness to those things I did no such thing I gave analogies of people you don't put in certain jobs, you don't put a drunk as a driver, you don't put a racist as your PR guy, you don't put a drug user in charge of medicines and you don't put a person with serious mental issues in a stressful job, it is not my fault you are unable to understand what an analogy is or the point, or maybe you are just trying to troll me because you think i'm the reason you don't get your boardgame who knows?
Merijeek wrote: Except Carmen doesn't seem to give a gak about miniatures as a product. He wants to be a professional game designer.
I actually wrote to Palladium after Carmen's suicide attempt, making suggestions for him to move forward, and the response I received *did* show enthusiasm for the miniatures.
While miniatures is not Carmen's entire dream, I think it's an option, definitely considering as a way to recover the money he's already spent on this project. Miniatures are certainly lead-ins to game design, and doesn't exclude it. Sometimes, the longer road gets you there when the shorter doesn't.
Plus, he pretty seems to be ding-dang happy with his man-dollies here:
Few things to note, there is genuine interest in a Rifts-related game, so it's something that can be polished up and released.
Carmen would hopefully learn about what people are looking for and tighten the game so that it is better focused.
Exposure like this usually either kills the person or make them better, so I think it's a good call to cancel, rework and relaunch. It'd give time to refine things.
Few things to note, there is genuine interest in a Rifts-related game, so it's something that can be polished up and released.
Carmen would hopefully learn about what people are looking for and tighten the game so that it is better focused.
Exposure like this usually either kills the person or make them better, so I think it's a good call to cancel, rework and relaunch. It'd give time to refine things.
Problem is what I saw most of the interest was in the minis, which begs the question why not just do minis? it makes me wonder if Kevin had done a long term IP deal on the minis and needs to wait it out for it to expire before a new one could be issued?
It won't be changed radically enough I suspect. My guess is that he'll take off the Palladium employee names, wait for the bgg entry to be put up, make a nicer video but behind the scenes it'll still be the same with the same people involved. Not he nor anyone on his team (mostly palladium employees) apparently learned anything from the Robotech debacle after four years of ongoing failure except how to further CYA with one sided disclaimers absolving them of most any responsibility. Kevin and Carmen will soon return probably with a more polished dog and pony show to allow them go big now/fail big later the next time instead of going home empty handed like now.
If Carmen wants to actually succeed then he needs to start with realistic goals not based on vapid empty praise from palladium superfans. The starting point should be a small $50-75 boxed set with a smaller number of highly requested resin or metal minis and cardstock components that then works up logically to his dream of a 32 all plastic mini meganox imo. Even of only the former funds, he could still upgrade it later after he actually gets a good rep for the company instead of the commonly assumed palladium shell (regardless of whether or not they're legally separate).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I already see fellow palladium employees praising the "brave" move and denouncing the "trolls" who ironically were the only ones being honest and open in the entire kickstarter discussion.
John Prins wrote: Maybe their board game will actually have a board next time around.
Or actually show off a game with rules and stuff. You don't get that kind of deep, knowledgeable advice apparently from years of behind the scenes input from fellow palladium collaborators/contributors and select groups of superfans. Apparently only "trolls" can come up with obvious flaws in Carmen's business plan.
warboss wrote: It won't be changed radically enough I suspect. My guess is that he'll take off the Palladium employee names, wait for the bgg entry to be put up, make a nicer video but behind the scenes it'll still be the same with the same people involved. Not he nor anyone on his team (mostly palladium employees) apparently learned anything from the Robotech debacle after four years of ongoing failure except how to further CYA with one sided disclaimers absolving them of most any responsibility. Kevin and Carmen will soon return probably with a more polished dog and pony show to allow them go big now/fail big later the next time instead of going home empty handed like now.
If Carmen wants to actually succeed then he needs to start with realistic goals not based on vapid empty praise from palladium superfans. The starting point should be a small $50-75 boxed set with a smaller number of highly requested resin or metal minis and cardstock components that then works up logically to his dream of a 32 all plastic mini meganox imo. Even of only the former funds, he could still upgrade it later after he actually gets a good rep for the company instead of the commonly assumed palladium shell (regardless of whether or not they're legally separate).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I already see fellow palladium employees praising the "brave" move and denouncing the "trolls" who ironically were the only ones being honest and open in the entire kickstarter discussion.
Actually it was mostly us "Trolls" who kept saying Carmen would be better off if this project did not fund or he cancelled it, he was ill prepared for this project and even worse yet, it showed.
I think that the minis designs would do well enough if they were available as a stand alone item without a game. No idea if that'd be possible under the license or not but it's something that has value and could be tweaked a bit, perhaps offering them in metal. Yeah it doesn't have the same appeal of a big box board game but it could potentially be used to recoup on the investments he's already made. All the leg work of the 3d is done so if they changed the material format for the minis it'd be a much more attainable goal to offer in metal.
Ignoring the connections to Palladium, IMO the main issue with the KS was that the game components and graphics looked pretty rough, certainly not the worst of gaming products but KS tends to cater to crowds who want something polished and sleek feeling. Big box style games rely heavily on the art presentation which this one fell a bit flat with. If you look at the visuals of any of the CMON games or even the stuff Ninja Division did with Robotech the graphics are all very colorful and slick which give their games a very professional look. A relaunch of the Rifts boardgame would benefit significantly if they got a better graphic designer to help with the layout.
Also the promotional photos need to be a bit better, as people noted earlier in the thread the ones used for the FB posts and depicted in the first few pages were fine but the ones used for the KS were all backlit and the miniatures were in shadow. Proper lighting makes or breaks a photo, while it was intended to show off the minis it kind of backfired and makes the project photos look a bit rushed or amateurish, which wouldn't be the case if they'd simply used the other set of photos they already had. There's a lot of small tweaks that can be done with the presentation that would have a really positive impact on a future relaunch.
Not trying to bash the previous efforts, just trying to point out where some improvements could be made for the future.
paulson games wrote: I think that the minis designs would do well enough if they were available as a stand alone item without a game. No idea if that'd be possible under the license or not but it's something that has value and could be tweaked a bit, perhaps offering them in metal.
Rifts has those, but they're garbage at the moment, so I can see that potentially working. If you're going metal, you'd have to get Infinity/Warmachine levels of quality, as the market is going to resist anything in metal that's below that.
It almost might we worth trying to kickstart, say, a multi-piece plastic Dead Boy trooper box set, by itself. Rifts RPG players would love it, and it could be used as stand-ins in other game systems really easily. If the campaign does well enough, add-in Dog Boys, Skelebots and SAMAS at reasonable thresholds. You can use any old 28/32mm minis for character heroes (read: use Infinity minis) aside from a few things (Glitterboys), but then you're looking at ONE product to start, minimal set-up, zero playtesting or balancing, and it could be worked into a Rifts boardgame or wargame at a later date.
John Prins wrote: Maybe their board game will actually have a board next time around.
Maybe Carmen will realize he isn't selling a boardgame!
Didja see the video? He's essentially selling a miniatures skirmish game with a paper map. That's actually how many skirmish miniature games, such as A-43, Confrontation, Mutant Chronicles, Terminator, etc. were sold (although none of those games are around...). He should shoot a video on a terrain board with futuristic buildings, and all that. Unfortunately, from the PB gRIFTS forum, he doesn't know his terminology. First he called the game a "dudes on a map" game, which, in BGG terms, means an area control game like Risk, Blood Rage, or Rising Sun. Then, he called it a "boardgame" like Descent and Imperial Assault. But, when it comes to the video, it's two gangs facing off and making die rolls with card modifiers. To me, that's a miniatures skirmish game.
This assumes, of course, that the sculpts are as good as customers want. From the first page of this thread, my impression is that customers liked the (resin?) miniatures, and glitterboys were the most in demand.
John Prins wrote: Maybe their board game will actually have a board next time around.
Maybe Carmen will realize he isn't selling a boardgame!
Well, that too. It very much is a skirmish miniatures wargame. But he's calling it a board game.
Anyone here follow metal miniature games on KS? I did a quick search for "Kickstarter miniatures science fiction" and found some which funded for less than 67K:
Yeah, half decent metal mini KS fund all the time. It takes very little to fund a rubber mold, and it's almost failure proof, barring complete fraud.
Given that the project is cancelled I'm going to close this thread. We can start a new on in the Micl Mini game forum to continue discussions or open a new one if/when this is relaunched.
, i had heard about a suicide attempt, but had chalked it up to rumor and exaggeration. But this is too much 
Duh!
).
