I am painting up the the test prints of some of the new Rogue Heroes Rifts Miniatures for use in the demo games for the forthcoming Kickstarter so far I have painted 5 of the Coalition Troopers and the Glitterboy, I have 4 more characters to paint which will be completed this weekend to be posted to Rogue Heroes for the Demos. Lovely models, what I have been waiting for for along time.
I always thought Rifts would be well suited to a miniature game. I see that there's a Triax Red Cyborg planned. I may need to back this when it hits Kickstarter just for him.
If ever there was a use for that Vader "Noooo" .gif, it'd be now.
For years I've wanted to see Rifts done properly on a tabletop.
I LOVED Rifts. It left a serious mark on me as an impressionable teen way back when it was first released. Magic, robots, dystopian future, drugs, dinosaurs, aliens, demons, mechs.... just about everything I enjoyed all rolled into one.
Only hurdle it'll have to get over is Palladium itself, and after Robotech, that's going to be an interesting obstacle to get over.
For years I've wanted to see Rifts done properly on a tabletop.
I LOVED Rifts. It left a serious mark on me as an impressionable teen way back when it was first released. Magic, robots, dystopian future, drugs, dinosaurs, aliens, demons, mechs.... just about everything I enjoyed all rolled into one.
Only hurdle it'll have to get over is Palladium itself, and after Robotech, that's going to be an interesting obstacle to get over.
Check out the Savage Worlds Rifts! I backed the kickstarter but the books are at retail now. More elegant rule sets and reasonably balanced (characters like rogue scientists effectively come with more skill points/edges and rolls on special tables compared to dragons). Like, the dragon is still probably better, but you arent a joke if you pick a wilderness scout or something. Been running a monthly game since October or so and it's been a blast.
I saw some hints of this (a render of Harv, the iconic the red borg) so glad that it's progressing.
I've always been amused that the point of the Glitterboy armor isnt to protect you from enemies... but to protect you from being that close to the Boomgun when it goes off!
Anyone who backs this should know that the creator was a longtime Palladium employee whose prior crowdfunded project is the still unfinished 4 years later Robotech Tactics. Carmen, the Rifts boargdgame creator, interacted with backers of his previous project for approximately two hours culminating in a threat by him to let his previous project "burn" in response to criticism from disgruntled backers. This highly biased update from Palladium details the aftermath of that short encounter. Caveat Emptor.
Links to the actual interaction should be in the comments and the facts differ significantly from Palladium's attempt at shifting the blame away from themselves.
Awesome! Been playing a campaign of Savage Worlds Rifts since last spring. I love being a Glitterboy, Boomguns are hilarious. Last game I one-shotted an incoming dropship right through it's cockpit with some lucky rolls, and with a max range of something like 100 real-world feet when converted from inches, my companions called in artillery strikes from me from a far-off hilltop.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The models are nice enough, but so were models that Palladium showed for RRT.
That said, I hope that this KS pulls in a lot of money so that RRT can be finished, just as PB managed to finish NG 1&2 after RRT funded...
but then that would mean the backers of the Rift's boardgame will be waiting 4 or more years for their game, that is if it is even made at all (other then a digital copy of the rules), but in reality Kevin will probably not use the RBG money for RRT but then again its debatable if he will even use it for RBG, and yes I know Carmen and his company is doing the RBG but we all know who is pulling his strings and Carmen will be thrown under the bus when the game is not delivered.
Is Carmen even...mentally stable enough to run the Rifts BG KS? 2 hours spent trying to promote his KS on the RRTKS page made him try to commit suicide.
Sining wrote: Is Carmen even...mentally stable enough to run the Rifts BG KS? 2 hours spent trying to promote his KS on the RRTKS page made him try to commit suicide.
I'm sure that will come up on his project, with backers asking why they should invest in a project with no guarantee of it finishing with the project creator having tried to commit suicide a few months earlier?
and that will be Kevin's cue to enter the picture to guarantee to the project backer he will insure the project will be completed and delivered
Absolutely agreed. Once it's out and in stores? Knock yourself out, the minis look nice enough and the game may be fun.
But I would STRONGLY advice against backing a KS, given previous experiences. No matter how much they tout that Rogue Heroes is a separate company... from here it really, really looks like they are a "separate company" only in the same way Asmodee, FFG and edge Entertainment are separate companies, now.
I should mention the creator of the KS has publicly said that IF a KS creator does not produce anything, there is nothing backers can do. Granted, he was talking about the RRT creators, but this isn't a great sentiment to have in a KS creator.
Wow, yeah... that guy needs to focus on getting some mental health treatment, not running a kickstarter and trying to fulfill it. Hopefully the minis see the light of day at retail. I'd originally planned on using the Dreamforge stormtroopers as deadboys but would prefer official ones.
I loved RIFTS even with the ridiculous Palladium system. It was really a part of the fun to try to make your Vagabond somehow matter in a world with Titan Juicers. The models look pretty good, fair representation from the artwork. But there are a TON of different races and factions so this is an ambitious project that may not have a good enough following yet. Hope for the best though.
Sining wrote: I should mention the creator of the KS has publicly said that IF a KS creator does not produce anything, there is nothing backers can do. Granted, he was talking about the RRT creators, but this isn't a great sentiment to have in a KS creator.
I really hope someone bothered with a screen shot of that exchange.
As I posted in another forum - I'd be happy to see this somehow come to fruition and actually get produced (and then, ya know, actually shipped to customers). If that somehow happens I'd love to pick up a box or two and get some of the figures.
But the Palladium/Kevin/Carmen stuff will keep me miles from a Kickstarter. Shame, as I'd kill for some SAMAS etc.
Dogpiling on the Caveat Emptor. Kickstarter guarantees nothing and gives really no recourse if things go south - the backer calls all shots and if they prove to be as scurrilous as PB has been, you are at their mercy. I wouldn't suggest backing an unknown company - especially one so closely tied and promoted by PB.
Although, I will say IF this makes it to retail, it certainly looks worth looking at. The primary operating word being "IF".
problem is that has already been proven false on a few occasions, like the incident in Washington where their AG take down a card company who failed to deliver on their KS promises (stuff got shipped out but the creator still got fined), and the other incident on the board game the FTC took down and fined, things can be done but you need a lawyer to do them.
what it comes down too there is too much unknown and garbage associated with the creator of this game and with PB and Kevin which is enough to do harm to the project itself with no help from detractors and such, Carmen's best hope is if the project does not fund. he will lose a lot but if it funds low he could lose a lot more.
Looks like it's probably being delayed another week. From the Rogue Heroes FB page.
Rogue Heroes Studio wrote:There will be 100 early birds and the normal pledge level, we are keeping the pledge levels simple. I will be shipping out from Windsor ON for us Canadians. And we will announce the launch date, its in about a week from now. Thanks Carmen.
2 May at 02:40
Given my location, that time and date equates to about midday on Monday, Ontario time. If it was going to be this weekend, I'd have expected them to say as such. And there still hasn't been an announcement of a launch date. Heck, there hasn't been a new Post of any kind in over a week (though as per the above, he is communicating a little in the commentaries).
There's also another tidbit of information that might be relevant. "I will be shipping out from Windsor ON for us Canadians.". That doesn't parse as all shipments will be sent from Ontario. Which would be what a truly independent company would do. I wonder where else they could ship from in the continental United States....
Yeah, still not buying that this isn't some kind of shell company for Palladium. I'd want to see the shipping docket from the manufacturer listing a Canadian address before I accepted otherwise, and Carmen not just shuffling the likely much smaller Canadian contingent through the Michigan/Ontario border.
There's also another tidbit of information that might be relevant. "I will be shipping out from Windsor ON for us Canadians.". That doesn't parse as all shipments will be sent from Ontario. Which would be what a truly independent company would do. I wonder where else they could ship from in the continental United States....
Yeah, still not buying that this isn't some kind of shell company for Palladium. I'd want to see the shipping docket from the manufacturer listing a Canadian address before I accepted otherwise, and Carmen not just shuffling the likely much smaller Canadian contingent through the Michigan/Ontario border.
US orders certainly wouldn't be shipping from the Palladium warehouse because like they are totally separate and independent companies.
Is anyone really going to back this? Palladium's involvement is not known (and nothing says Kevin won't interfere), and Carmen, the creator, already had a suicide attempt after two hours in the RRT comments.
Retail is always an option. At the least, if you wait for retail, you won't be contributing towards the stress Carmen will have in fulfilling a KS project. If he has a mental breakdown after funding, the last thing he needs is to respond to backer demands for a refund.
Does it use the Rifts RPG rules? Will we get to spend 30 minutes playing out 8 seconds of combat, accounting for every nick and scratch, only to discover one side has no hope of winning because they brought dog boys, city rats, and a cyber doc with default SDC gear against a Glitterboy, Borg, and Mindmelter with MDC armor and weapons?
I have finished off the first batch of figures sent to me, and they are now back with Rogue Heroes for them to film their demo videos ready for their Kickstarter which is starting this Monday (3pm Canadian time)
Leyland line wizard
Borg
Grackletooth
Juicer Sniper
The completed group
I will be getting some more figures to paint in the next couple of weeks.
If you want more info please see links in first post as I am only the painter and unable to awnser any questions.
Would be fun to have an 'official' Glitterboy for my character. I've been using a converted Iron Man Warmachine figure for mine, but he's a little tall for a 10' character, more like 12-14 feet.
It's great fun though- I own the most powerful non-vehicle gun in the game, but my character prefers melee combat against monsters, Pacific Rim-style.
The minis look decent but I'd certainly pass on this one.
I was a fan of the Rifts setting back when it released 20+ years ago but it hasn't aged well with me and I'm just not interested in it anymore. There's also the consideration of Palladium and their undelivered Robotech kickstarter, so even if I were interested I wouldn't touch it until it were physically available on the shelf. Their history KS campaigns and pre-order items that are years behind schedule are just too risky to put good money on.
I would feel better if Savage Worlds was putting out the models alongside their rules adaptation (which is awesome and runs 1,000 better than the old system). Stories of Palladium worry me.
Same here. I'd have loved Rifts minis four years ago even though I haven't played in a Rifts campaign in 10 years (that campaign was an on/off one for 15 years that got me into gaming btw). Now? Not so much. The minis look ok (the coalition stuff) to good (the red borg) but there is no way that I'll give palladium even a penny of my money whether directly or indirectly until wave 2 is delivered (and, yes, to head off any tryhards out there that might try ask me if I *really* think wave 2 will ever come... no, I don't). This, along with Savage Worlds, is firmly in my used purchase camp. If I can preferrably trade for it with another player (or possibly pick it up used at a big discount) then I'll consider getting it since Palladium won't see a penny of that transaction.
Until then, I'll honestly relate my abysmal four year and counting with no end in sight experience with Palladium (which Carmen was an integral part of) to any independent community (like Dakka) I'm a member of to make sure that potential backers are realistically warned of their prospects. I will *NOT* pledge a dollar for his campaign though just to comment (I didn't with Savage Worlds either) nor will I engage in any futile discussions on Palladium owned or operated venues like the Megaversal forum or their facebook pages. If people don't do a simple web search to find out just how bad the customer experience is with Palladium then that's on them. As for Rogue Heroes being a separate company, Palladium made the initial announcement, is the primary source/origin of advertising, as has creative control/approval over all content. Despite what some Canadian legal form says, I consider them one and the same. That is especially true as Carmen trained under the tutelage of his mentor Kevin and I can't realistically believe that he didn't pick up a multitude of bad habits from his "friend", mentor, boss, and now licensor.
AegisGrimm wrote: I would feel better if Savage Worlds was putting out the models alongside their rules adaptation (which is awesome and runs 1,000 better than the old system). Stories of Palladium worry me.
*That* is a good idea. Pinnacle Entertainment Group has put out metal miniatures for its various Savage World RPG lines, so it's not like they don't have any miniatures experience.
Even if the game doesn't hit retail, that doesn't mean the miniatures can't.
AegisGrimm wrote: I would feel better if Savage Worlds was putting out the models alongside their rules adaptation (which is awesome and runs 1,000 better than the old system). Stories of Palladium worry me.
*That* is a good idea. Pinnacle Entertainment Group has put out metal miniatures for its various Savage World RPG lines, so it's not like they don't have any miniatures experience.
Even if the game doesn't hit retail, that doesn't mean the miniatures can't.
Carmen likely licensed the exclusive rights before PEG approached Palladium.
That's probably the prudent choice given the collosal fulfillment failure of Carmen's and Kevin's previous crowdfunding endeavor but it's so much less prestigious/ambitious for two such talented (at least according to humble multigenre redefining Kevin himself) folks. For all we know (and I have no concrete details), Carmen needs this to go big in order to feasibly pay Kevin for the next part of the license. IIRC, one of them said he had been working on this for years so likely the renewal time is drawing near with no product yet to show for it.
Regardless, I expect this project to hit 6 digits easily despite the issues surrounding both Carmen and the association of Palladium and all the baggage both entail. The Savage Rifts ks proves beyond a doubt that there are plenty of nostalgic fans who either don't know about the issues or don't care once they do.
You know, beyond the total instability of the project creator and their unsavory business connections, and the complete mess of all connected prior crowdfunding I am having a hard time even wanting to back this because the miniatures really just do not look good.
I genuinely thought they would be putting a better product forward, but these look really good for 10-15 years ago, not the market today.
warboss wrote: That's probably the prudent choice given the collosal fulfillment failure of Carmen's and Kevin's previous crowdfunding endeavor but it's so much less prestigious/ambitious for two such talented (at least according to humble multigenre redefining Kevin himself) folks. For all we know (and I have no concrete details), Carmen needs this to go big in order to feasibly pay Kevin for the next part of the license. IIRC, one of them said he had been working on this for years so likely the renewal time is drawing near with no product yet to show for it.
Regardless, I expect this project to hit 6 digits easily despite the issues surrounding both Carmen and the association of Palladium and all the baggage both entail. The Savage Rifts ks proves beyond a doubt that there are plenty of nostalgic fans who either don't know about the issues or don't care once they do.
Carmen's mentioned that it's nearing the point he needs to do something or else the license will lapse. He's mentioned it being 18 months worth of work, Kevin mentioned it's been two years, and a PBWU from March 1st 2012 (five years ago) has it mentioned there. So it's pretty clear neither of these two could lie straight in bed. He's also mentioned having sunk way too much in personally, that he can't afford to let it go.
I'm also expecting it to hit six figures. Would not surprise me at all if it hit 300K total, and 100K in the first 48 hours. Because I think there are way too many people out there who don't make considerations when it comes to Kickstarters. I think people who do comment, or even lurk, think more do than actually do. So, for all the expectation that it'll be a rowdy place in the commentary, I expect most backers to not look. They'll see the front page, and make a decision based on that. And take into account the speed of funding, which given the PB fanbois, is going to be very fast, very early.
Carmen's mentioned only having the single pledge level, but I think he'd do well to consider offering both the miniatures separate, and the game separate (using cardboard standees). And then the combined pack at a slight discount. I think the market would be there for both options, and the packing complexity is minimal, and would attract some backers that wouldn't otherwise back.
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Swabby wrote: You know, beyond the total instability of the project creator and their unsavory business connections, and the complete mess of all connected prior crowdfunding I am having a hard time even wanting to back this because the miniatures really just do not look good.
I genuinely thought they would be putting a better product forward, but these look really good for 10-15 years ago, not the market today.
I don't think they're bad (one of the Skelebots excepted, it's knee is all kinds of fethed). I've seen people praise them as awesome, but I'm suspecting a lot of that is being PB insular (so a fan of the artwork) and not having much interest in the level of quality for miniatures of this type. GW, Malifaux, PPress, all make these look meh if you're not looking at them through PB colored lenses. They either don't know better, or don't care to know better.
That they're going to be boardgame plastic, is an issue for painting. It's why people were happy RRT was going to be in a more rigid plastic to begin with (and regardless of what PB say, no they did NOT have to be split that way), so as board game counters, they're passable. I just hope people don't have high expectations of their paintjobs holding up under significant play. I can see the potential for a lot of flaking as a result of regular play. Have seen it a lot in other wargames where people have used softer plastic toys as proxies.
This has all the signs of being a dumpster fire like Defiance Games fiasco. There are enough posts in this thread to make everyone realize that they'll likely not see a return on their investment any time soon, if at all.
As I said in the Defiance thread, "You were warned. Everyone on Dakka was warned."
Breotan wrote: This has all the signs of being a dumpster fire like Defiance Games fiasco.
Oh, it'll be a disaster, to be sure. If Carmen attempted suicide after a couple hours of manic posting on RRT, before coming down to reality, imagine how well he's going to handle legit concerns and backer ire from people who put real money down and expect him to deliver. Can his fragile mind handle it?
Breotan wrote: This has all the signs of being a dumpster fire like Defiance Games fiasco. There are enough posts in this thread to make everyone realize that they'll likely not see a return on their investment any time soon, if at all.
As I said in the Defiance thread, "You were warned. Everyone on Dakka was warned."
It's worth noting that Palladium did produce one wave of RTT before the 4+ years of hot air.
Even Defiance produced 2 or 3 kits before folding up and taking everyone's money.
So they seem less like scams and more like incompetence.
Alas this project is not exactly brimming over with signs of competence. I really think scaling back now, early, to just minis and showing they can do that would go a long way to helping.
As Palladium themselves said producing a game is vastly more complex than just books, or just models. It adds the need for boxes, packing, shipping and vastly multiplies the number of partners.
They fact that physical models exist gives us some small amount of confidence, why not focus on that?
I can only say for myself. I'll purchase these when they are on a shelf in a store in person. I won't back any kickstarter run by or associated with Kevin or Palladium again. I won't even order anything from him. Zero trust in the people there. The miniatures however look great.
Hm, those Deadboys are... well, the prototypes exists and are mostly correct, that's something. Other than that I must say that they are kind of underwhelming. I think I'd be better of getting some more Eisenkern stormtroopers, maybe with a head swap.
Swabby wrote: You know, beyond the total instability of the project creator and their unsavory business connections, and the complete mess of all connected prior crowdfunding I am having a hard time even wanting to back this because the miniatures really just do not look good.
I genuinely thought they would be putting a better product forward, but these look really good for 10-15 years ago, not the market today.
Remember, as I understand it, these are single-piece (or maybe two piece) board game minis. Sadly they won't be proper wargame miniatures etc.
Swabby wrote: You know, beyond the total instability of the project creator and their unsavory business connections, and the complete mess of all connected prior crowdfunding I am having a hard time even wanting to back this because the miniatures really just do not look good.
I genuinely thought they would be putting a better product forward, but these look really good for 10-15 years ago, not the market today.
Remember, as I understand it, these are single-piece (or maybe two piece) board game minis. Sadly they won't be proper wargame miniatures etc.
Hearing that it almost makes me hope it's manufactured by Prodos
Man, this is all reminding me that somewhere in my parents' attic is a box of metal Rifts miniatures dating back to the 90s. Some of them even painted!
Might be a safer bet if you're really dying for a Glitter Boy miniature. Although I admit: at the very least, I'll be keeping an eye on this Kickstarter.
ubik2000 wrote: Man, this is all reminding me that somewhere in my parents' attic is a box of metal Rifts miniatures dating back to the 90s. Some of them even painted!
Might be a safer bet if you're really dying for a Glitter Boy miniature. Although I admit: at the very least, I'll be keeping an eye on this Kickstarter.
Albertorius wrote: Hm, those Deadboys are... well, the prototypes exists and are mostly correct, that's something. Other than that I must say that they are kind of underwhelming. I think I'd be better of getting some more Eisenkern stormtroopers, maybe with a head swap.
I do like the grackle and the cyborg, though.
Yeah, they struck me as odd too but when I took a closer look they seemed accurate to the art. I suspect they just didn't age well combined with translate well to the different medium of miniatures. I still prefer the original Dead Boy look to the current style they introduced during the Coalition Wars series. The same goes for iirc some SAMAS art they previewed. So far for me, the glitter boy and red borg are my favorites.
At the time they were all I ever wanted, but yeah, in hindsight, not great. Did they really think there was a burning need for not one, but TWO packs of "Damaged Skelebots"?
want to put in some words or have questions before the project goes live? then go to his fishing for compliments or comments, but mostly compliments since anything negative will be deleted:
ScarletRose wrote: I was never into Rifts, and tbh I'm one of those who got burned on RTT, but what's the appeal here? These look like any generic mid-90s sci-fi minis.
I mean I guess being KS it's only for those who are fans but as an outsider there's no real draw.
also you forgot too mention there is also a 2 year wait for the game to be delivered.
Like most of the 90's Palladium stuff, Rifts launched with the fantastic artwork of Kevin Long (later accused of stealing money from Palladium or some such? - the accuracy of such now called into question since we're talking about Kevin Siembeda...a thief himself)
This kind of stuff struck a cord w/ teenagers like myself. Still love some of the Rifts stuff (the universe was crap, and the game was worse)
Kevin Long's art (often derivative, but what isn't?) was really damn cool looking and made for some damn cool looking units.
The apparent negative would be PB's apparent deep interest and involvement here.
Add that to their track record on Robotech RPG Tactics, and...
on a side note me thinks Carmen plans to truck in product and ship it from say like Palladium, problem is they have been getting stricter on the border about things like that and he will have to pay sales taxes and such on the product, since just recently an artist from Canada got stopped and was refused entry over her comic books and art work she had in her car.
The prototype page, if it remains as is, fills me with underwhelming.
First off, content numbers (which isn't definitive, but is what it is) is pretty low vs other games.
Funding goal is reasonable ($100K), but stretch goals are being started out high (+50K gets an upgraded rulebook, woo.).
Initial box doesn't have several of the models that have been used for promotional purposes. Sure, I can understand wanting stretch goal materials, but neither the Glitterboy or the Lizardman thing are on the initial release. Other than the Borg (?) thingy, those are the three big things to be on the board. And with what looks to be a 50K SG, it needs to fund big to get those in the mix.
Pricing is pretty off too. If you miss out on the EB's, the big pledge saves you all of $2.
As Alpharius mentioned on a different thread, the addons being craploads of PB stock doesn't help with the whole separation argument. Shipping also indicates that they'll likely be shipping from within the US ($12-$15), possibly at a cheaper rate than they will from Canada ($10-$20). So there's that.
Having a completion date of 25 months is probably a good thing, but it does indicate that the game isn't that close to completion. There's only so much contingency time you need if it's properly managed.
There's just too many questions and sketchiness involved here. I think it will fund, but as Asterios mentions, barely funding is probably going to be significantly worse for Carmen (and the backers) than not funding at all. Depending on the stretch goals value and cost, unless he skimps on quality significantly, I think he's needing ~300K to break even, without cost overruns. And that's not taking into account the money he's declared as already sunk into the project so far.
It looks like less than an hour out, he's still futzing. When I first looked the Early Birds were $90 and $130 respectively. Now they're at $80 and $120 respectively (though the graphics still list the old price for the former.
A win for everyone, Carmen gets to quit his day job and live off the gRifts money for two years, Kevin gets to empty his warehouse of moldy books he can't sell and when people grumble in 2020 about getting nothing Kevvy and shoot the books out to grumbling backers. "Here, you heathens, have my old crap books to placate you while Carmen continues to learn the fine art of sculpting miniatures with chewing gum!"
Palladium suckered me once with the "Ninja Divsion Bait n' Switch" but never gain.
also this little addendum they said might hurt them funding a lot:
"By pledging to this Kickstarter project, you acknowledge and agree that the final look, materials and content of the rewards (and the project) are subject to change, and may differ substantially from what is presented while the Kickstarter project was active. We do not anticipate this to be the case, but we reserve that right."
can see it now, instead of plastic minis you get cardboard cut outs
also i'm curious how he can ship to Australia so cheap ? it cost me more then that to ship a book at times.
Alpharius wrote: That's pretty much a standard disclaimer for miniature and boardgame stuff on KS these days.
And just smart to know going in in terms of anything shown as a render or 'resin master'.
yeah but when it leaves it open to they can send you cardboard cutouts and PDF rules and paper maps is just leaving Carmen open to a massive you know what storm.
also doesn't Carmen live in Canada? isn't his company in Canada? and yet it states it is in Michigan on the kickstarter, that is considered fraud and attempting to defraud me thinks.
Elbows wrote: Like most of the 90's Palladium stuff, Rifts launched with the fantastic artwork of Kevin Long (later accused of stealing money from Palladium or some such? - the accuracy of such now called into question since we're talking about Kevin Siembeda...a thief himself)
The first Crisis of Treachery had nothing to do with Kevin Long. I didn't hear the full story but he left long (no pun intended) before it and even worked for a short time in another indy RPG game (I chatted with him in the late 1990's about it at gencon) before moving onto apparently the videogame industry as a creative director. The next time I saw his name was in an interview for the art style on the xbox 360 wolfenstein game that he worked on.
On the prelim site, it looks like the address of the totally different pinky swear nothing to do with Palladium Canadian company is NOT in Canada but instead Livonia, MI only 13 miles away from palladium's town of Westland.. Anyone else suspect a palladium employee might live in Livonia and Carmen is using the address? I doubt they're renting an office there under the company name. From a quick google search of Palladium/Siembieda/Livonia, one of those paid info sites lists an old address of Kev's somewhere in Livonia as well in their free preview.
Asterios wrote: also doesn't Carmen live in Canada? isn't his company in Canada? and yet it states it is in Michigan on the kickstarter, that is considered fraud and attempting to defraud me thinks.
Where can I read up on Kevin Long and this art/ money swiping business?
I loved Long's artwork back in the day, especially the main book's artwork. Very evocative. Ley Line Walker and SAMAS armor being two big standouts to my adolescent brain.
I loved Long's artwork back in the day, especially the main book's artwork. Very evocative. Ley Line Walker and SAMAS armor being two big standouts to my adolescent brain.
You can't because Kevin Long had nothing to do with art/money swiping or the crisis to my knowledge. The crisis was some business/warehouse manager and NOT Kevin Long. The feeling that I got from chatting with him was that the Kevin's just had a falling out (although he was too professional to throw Kevin Siembieda under a bus when asked about what happened). I loved his art too and it was a big reason I was convinced to get into Rifts (specifically through Robotech as my first character was a VF-1 pilot in a rifts campaign).
n815e wrote: Wayne and Kevin on the team, but this is a totally separate company, I tell you!
Yeah, I know the word "collaborator" has a benign meaning, but there's a specific usage that comes to mind.
I saw Wayne post in the pre-commentary, but I wonder if either of those two are stupid enough to jump into the commentary with the backers.
Given that the last public comment from PB was two years ago, tomorrow (May 9th, 2015).
Also noted that all of the Deluxe EB's have sold, and 25 of the Standards have sold. Wonder what people who actually work for a living will think, with all EB's likely to be gone by end of business today.
There's also at least 20 backers who are pissing away $18 by backing Deluxe full price. The difference between Deluxe and Standard is $50. Getting it through Add-Ons is $52. So an FP Deluxe is $150. So an EB Standard + Add-Ons is $132. For the exact same content.
Eh I've tossed a dollar on it just to be able to access info. Not intending to post anything there, this one can succeed or fail on its own merits.
Overall from my experience on KS (be it what it may, including RRT), this one looks a bit stretchy. Target seems a bit high -- we are talking about a boardgame not a RPG book -- and bundles/ offers look low.
He's basically looking for a 1000 backers... eh ok, that's a bit high for a boardgame of a niche universe IMO, but not unreachable. Price point looks a tad bit high but that could be just me. Early Bird pricing looks.. still a bit high, but close enough to wallet comfortable.
Add-ons are basically not worth the trouble. I might up pledge just to get a few minis for the sake of it, but they look to be mono-cast with no options, so not too keen on them. Fair deal to them, that's pretty industrial standard for boardgames.
Stretch goals are not much at the moment, but an extra 30K for colour on 64 pages? Eh, 64x1300 is a significant number of pages, I not too sure where he's getting his printing done.
At least the delivery date is believable for the current content.
Overall.. Yeah ok this might fund, but I don't think there'd be a big wave of backers driving the money up.
1) What is the periodicity of the license, meaning when will the license expire/require renewing? While the amount could probably be eventually expressed mathematically once the KS has a goal, I imagine that the existing license was a flat rate - will it be a flat rate to renew, or will it be a percentage of the KS funding/distribution?
1a) I see that two Palladium employees (Wayne and Kevin) are listed as "Collaborators;" what assurances are there that PB will not take control of the project?
2) As the intention of the KS is to create a production run to make it into distribution, what will the break-even numbers for various print runs?
3) What is the pool size of playtesters for the game?
4) How many production samples of the miniatures have been acquired, and has a manufacturer been decided upon?
5) Have the various timeline goalposts been identified (e.g. artwork finalized, miniature molds completed, packaging at distribution site)? When and how will those be shared with backers?
6) How will game errata be addressed? Will the rules for the game be provided to backers prior to being finalized?
7) Have potentially-friendly reviewers been identified and contacted about review copies of the game? Here I'm talking about game reviewers that have generally favorable views for this style of game, and thus might be best able to speak to its strengths, not necessarily reviewers that will provide solely positive reviews.
8) Finally, what sort of insurance/reassurance is there that the project will be protected in the event of single point failure? I think it would be remiss to ignore the fact that the project creator attempted suicide barely over two and a half months ago regarding the possibility that the project could go sideways.
Curious how many of these will actually get responses.
Overall from my experience on KS (be it what it may, including RRT), this one looks a bit stretchy. Target seems a bit high -- we are talking about a boardgame not a RPG book -- and bundles/ offers look low.
While I don't think the value is there (compared with things like the Star Wars Assault game) but that's what stretch goals are for. The one thing I would agree with is the initial funding goal and I thought they might try to lowball it like Palladium did (iirc 30% lower while also including the cost of shipping).
1) What is the periodicity of the license, meaning when will the license expire/require renewing? While the amount could probably be eventually expressed mathematically once the KS has a goal, I imagine that the existing license was a flat rate - will it be a flat rate to renew, or will it be a percentage of the KS funding/distribution?
1a) I see that two Palladium employees (Wayne and Kevin) are listed as "Collaborators;" what assurances are there that PB will not take control of the project?
2) As the intention of the KS is to create a production run to make it into distribution, what will the break-even numbers for various print runs?
3) What is the pool size of playtesters for the game?
4) How many production samples of the miniatures have been acquired, and has a manufacturer been decided upon?
5) Have the various timeline goalposts been identified (e.g. artwork finalized, miniature molds completed, packaging at distribution site)? When and how will those be shared with backers?
6) How will game errata be addressed? Will the rules for the game be provided to backers prior to being finalized?
7) Have potentially-friendly reviewers been identified and contacted about review copies of the game? Here I'm talking about game reviewers that have generally favorable views for this style of game, and thus might be best able to speak to its strengths, not necessarily reviewers that will provide solely positive reviews.
8) Finally, what sort of insurance/reassurance is there that the project will be protected in the event of single point failure? I think it would be remiss to ignore the fact that the project creator attempted suicide barely over two and a half months ago regarding the possibility that the project could go sideways.
Curious how many of these will actually get responses.
Curious how many of these will actually get responses.
Does revoking your pledge and removing the comment count as a response? That's what I'd expect given that Carmen trained under Palladium and enjoys the fruits of NMI's labor.
Speaking of removed comments, I don't see the inflammatory Robotech comments under the Rogue Heroes comment list or even that they backed. Did Carmen get a refund and/or the comments he made about hoping Robotech burns get removed?
I didn't realize when it happened that his "burn" comment was only the second one he made apparently with only one other poster inbetween that comment and his introductory comment.
Carmen is saying the project is 90% done but not planning a completion date of June 2019 (two years) ..
Is that some type of special Canadian math I don't know about?
well after the brief just started surge which is usual of most kickstarters, this project has started slowing down and well shy of their goal.(less then a third )
As an aside, anyone who had fun with the Rifts setting back in the day should definitely try out the Savage Worlds take on it. So much fun, and with a game engine that's not broken, either.
@rogue if you were handing out wads of money folded up and paper clipped in a paper bag to people randomly. eventually you'll run into people that complain about how the money is folded. Please ignore all the trolls they're just being mean because that's what they do. If they knew the word strawberry offended you they would talk about how to make strawberry shortcake strawberry pie and strawberry ice cream just to piss people off!!! So ignore them and watch where you step because of all the b*******. That being said I'm a backer and I want you to knock this out of the park and I want the board game box to be in orbit and be a second moon for the planet!!!!! Go rogue hero's publishing!!! Woot!!!!
The way kickstarter acts you'd think it was creators paying to keep their lights on and not backers. Glad I'm just a spectator to these fabulous train wrecks these days. Thought about putting a dollar in to comment but honestly any points I was going to make regarding information about the miniatures manufacturer have already been asked and pointedly ignored. Although we do know that no matter what backers will NEVER get the 3D files even if the minis never appear.
Carmen is so far ignoring any real questions while gleefully discussing useless fluff regarding the fictional date his board game takes place in. I will note that I was curious about the size of the minis and they are kind of 28mm but seem a little all over the place rather than consistent although it could be the number of loonies they are putting under the base.
@rogue if you were handing out wads of money folded up and paper clipped in a paper bag to people randomly. eventually you'll run into people that complain about how the money is folded. Please ignore all the trolls they're just being mean because that's what they do. If they knew the word strawberry offended you they would talk about how to make strawberry shortcake strawberry pie and strawberry ice cream just to piss people off!!! So ignore them and watch where you step because of all the b*******. That being said I'm a backer and I want you to knock this out of the park and I want the board game box to be in orbit and be a second moon for the planet!!!!! Go rogue hero's publishing!!! Woot!!!!
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Obviously Kickstarter does not want your money. Or rather they want your money but not your mouth. I give them five stars out of five for customer service.
TwoGunBob wrote: Obviously Kickstarter does not want your money. Or rather they want your money but not your mouth. I give them five stars out of five for customer service.
and so far the only post I can find really removed was this one here:
just to give some facts down: the project creator Carmen Bellaire, back in February of 2017 (just a few months ago) attempted to take his own life because of some backers who informed him on another kickstarter they would not back any project connected with Palladium books the incident in the words of Kevin Siembieda: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rrpgt/robotech-rpg-tacticstm/posts/1811029 Furthermore a little fact checking will show that this company is located in Windsor Ontario which is not Livonia, Michigan furthermore there is no company of this name to be found in Michigan. and the final word is (which is subjective) that this company is nothing more the a front for Palladium Books which has yet failed to deliver on promised product on another project which they had created called Robotech RPG Tactics, of which this companies owner Carmen Bellaire was very much involved with and worked on. All I have to say to backers is Caveat Emptor "buyer beware". furthermore: the project creator here has threatened RRT backers with making sure the RRT project is not completed unless this project of his funds (yes those are carmens own words), you can go look them up, he has changed his name to hide his posts from backers looking into him, but you can find his posts here: https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/415122038/comments and see how he stated he would put a stranglehold pretty much on RRT if his project here did not fund. he would not help "fix" RRT and would let it burn. (well his responses to the responses since think his initial post was removed by Kickstarter). also if he had nothing to hide why did he change the name on the account to Casey ? so tell em does that sound like a project creator that is worthy of backing?
The same has been said by other backers using different words so perhaps Kickstarter's world renowned customer service will come into effect and they'll start stifling a plethora of backers and open a new age of Kickstarter, give us your money and do not question!
Honestly, I'm glad I only got screwed over by 2 of the 3 projects I backed before I wised up. Of the three I know the creator of one and actually understand why he's having so many issues but yeah, very done with that. I'm starting to notice a lot of projects seem completely hosed up with creators cutting and running. I guess the format is still going strong despite all that.
The platform still works. There have been plenty of great successes - you just need to do research on who you're backing. Simple as that.
I've had excellent results from the companies I've used with Kickstarter with the exception of two - both of which I knew from the outset were large risks (i.e. Robotech, and Hero Quest 25th). I've no one to blame but myself. However, everything else has been fantastic (if late, that's almost always the case).
I don't back small time single-person projects...those I don't trust.
I don't back small time single-person projects...those I don't trust.
I dunno, small, modestly ambitious projects are generally ok. I'm talking about (for miniatures) somebody casting a few metal figs or some resin terrain. Once you have to start contracting things out (like most plastic minis campaigns), it gets a lot dodgier for inexperienced creators.
Note that Palladium still has approvals over everything in Carmen's KS. That'll feth him up more than anything else, methinks.
Elbows wrote: I just ate popcorn...but I'm willing to pop some more. This is gonna be good.
Yeah... I'll be the one to tell you-
Kickstarter, and getting banned from Kickstarter because of this gakshow... I honestly think that you can find other more constructive ways to entertain yourself.
To everyone- AVOID THIS AT ALL COSTS. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
It will not fund, and if it does, it will not conclude well. Years of excuses, years of lies and neglect. You have only yourself to blame if you throw good money after bad.
Second for "Kickstarter"... I find it entertaining that they go after someone who funds, but not a criminal, non-concluded project. THAT in itself should be grounds to sue kickstarter for abuse and fraud...
thing about is I don't think most of those backers paid attention to the FAQ's if they did they would have noticed the miniatures they are getting are tantamount to those plastic army men you get at the five and dime or dollar store or gumball machines .
Asterios wrote: thing about is I don't think most of those backers paid attention to the FAQ's if they did they would have noticed the miniatures they are getting are tantamount to those plastic army men you get at the five and dime or dollar store or gumball machines .
Serious question- Who owns the molds for the old RIFTS figure range?
back in the day, there was a pretty substantial presence of them, and they were quite nice. At 25mm, they were very close, if not dead on to the RIFT's material.
Once upon a time, I had a very good run with the game, and the figures themselves were as well, interesting and would fit well into other figures ranges.
A serious project would be to just rerelease the old school figures, with a tabletop rules set. In this readers humble opinion, the efforts, hate, and dissention involved in this level of a project dooms it from the start.
scott simpson 3 minutes ago
So let me get this straight?
A bunch of people who backed a project that failed/didn't turn out right. Are now trying to use lies and slander to try and organize the failure of a project of a company that had the NERVE to BUY a license from one of the companies that was involved in their failed project?
Oh, and to do this they are making bad faith pledges (since they are plainly not intending to honor the pledges they made to post in here)
Yeah, we should really take their word for anything.
that is from the RBG KS comments.
on a side note it seems they are losing some backers just saw them lose a $100 backer.
As I said back when RTT was all the rage and hype was running high (and I'm glad this time things are going in the right direction) don't trust anything even tangentially related to Palladium and Kevin S., no not even if it gives you assurances that it will have complete oversight.
Kev doesn't give complete oversight on projects that license out from him. If RTT wasn't enough to show folks this was the case, then I can't stress enough that Kev is the kind of person who will micro-manage projects in to oblivion.
He once hired on a freelancer to write some kind of post-apoc setting (can't even remember it now). He got the treatment, and instead of just saying to make a few changes, he just re-wrote the bloody thing.
Palladium is the company that has had a pre-order up for an RPG supplement that has been in development for over 20 years.
DON'T TRUST ANYTHING ATTACHED TO THEIR IP'S IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM.
I say this as someone whose first real RPG experience was with Rifts. A project like this should be drilling in to my nostalgia centres and delivering shots of pure bliss. But I'm not touching it, just like I didn't touch RTT, and just like I am going to warn everyone not to do.
This has nothing to do with the creator of the project, I don't know 'im from Adam and I don't wish him any ill will. But regardless of what the situation is behind the scenes, this is a Palladium project, just like RTT was (despite claims to the contrary) because Kev S. will not just let someone use his IP with no strings attached. So run, run as far and as fast away from this KS as possible and do not look back.
Grot 6 wrote: Serious question- Who owns the molds for the old RIFTS figure range?
back in the day, there was a pretty substantial presence of them, and they were quite nice. At 25mm, they were very close, if not dead on to the RIFT's material.
Once upon a time, I had a very good run with the game, and the figures themselves were as well, interesting and would fit well into other figures ranges.
A serious project would be to just rerelease the old school figures, with a tabletop rules set. In this readers humble opinion, the efforts, hate, and dissention involved in this level of a project dooms it from the start.
I believe Kevin owns the molds for the old metal figures. However, I believe he said in an PBWU not that long ago (ie, this year), that the person responsible for casting them is.....
*drumroll*
Carmen Bellaire.
Not that Carmen is in any way affiliated with Palladium.
Elbows wrote: The platform still works. There have been plenty of great successes - you just need to do research on who you're backing. Simple as that.
I've had excellent results from the companies I've used with Kickstarter with the exception of two - both of which I knew from the outset were large risks (i.e. Robotech, and Hero Quest 25th). I've no one to blame but myself. However, everything else has been fantastic (if late, that's almost always the case).
I don't back small time single-person projects...those I don't trust.
HQ25 was kicked off KS, so I don't think it counts?
Wow. The defenders of the faith are certainly out in force on the kickstarter page arent they? But then that does kind of follow and shows how close this game is to the company despite claims to the contrary.
Still it has already reached the halfway point which just goes to show. Maybe Kev will make enough this time to retire.
Elbows wrote: The platform still works. There have been plenty of great successes - you just need to do research on who you're backing. Simple as that.
I've had excellent results from the companies I've used with Kickstarter with the exception of two - both of which I knew from the outset were large risks (i.e. Robotech, and Hero Quest 25th). I've no one to blame but myself. However, everything else has been fantastic (if late, that's almost always the case).
I don't back small time single-person projects...those I don't trust.
HQ25 was kicked off KS, so I don't think it counts?
It went to a Spanish crowd-funding site. I don't see much difference between the various crowd-funding sites. It's all the same idea/function. Indiegogo/KS/Lazanos, etc.
"it looks fantastic.
But until I can be proven wrong, Rifts BG will be overseen by Artists... not actual, real project managers.
I know the end result will be great.
I just am saying its normal for these things to get delayed.
My comments relate to actual production... not what the guys in the US are up to.
Its the Chinese.
Dealing with Chinese factories was a logistical nightmare for Robotech and is the reason its such a mess.
RRT should be considered a dry run financed from other backers, surely the mistakes taken with RRT will be avoided with Rifts BG.
The one thing that just baffles me is PB never had a pointman living over there for a few months to oversee production.
You cant trust the Chinese factories if you arent on them.
I saw pics of RRTs factory... peasant dudes in open toe sandals working industrial grade presses... its a mess over there."
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is fromPB's FB page. This guy actually thinks this is a positive defense of PB and RH.
n815e wrote: "it looks fantastic.
Dealing with Chinese factories was a logistical nightmare for Robotech and is the reason its such a mess.
RRT should be considered a dry run financed from other backers, surely the mistakes taken with RRT will be avoided with Rifts BG.
The one thing that just baffles me is PB never had a pointman living over there for a few months to oversee production.
You cant trust the Chinese factories if you arent on them.
I saw pics of RRTs factory... peasant dudes in open toe sandals working industrial grade presses... its a mess over there."
There are some good ones (Cthulhu Wars used a Chinese manufacturer and it went pretty well), but you're right, after the cluster-feth that went on in RTT you'd think they would have wised up and gone with an American casting company. Even though Dream Pod 9's Heavy Gear KS didn't go perfectly (delays, cut backs, some quality issues), they got 22 (?) different minis made for 1/10th the amount of money RTT drew in by keeping it local and dealing with a professional plastic model molding company. If Carmen doesn't do the same, well, expect the same results as RTT, really.
n815e wrote: "it looks fantastic.
But until I can be proven wrong, Rifts BG will be overseen by Artists... not actual, real project managers.
I know the end result will be great.
I just am saying its normal for these things to get delayed.
My comments relate to actual production... not what the guys in the US are up to.
Its the Chinese.
Dealing with Chinese factories was a logistical nightmare for Robotech and is the reason its such a mess.
RRT should be considered a dry run financed from other backers, surely the mistakes taken with RRT will be avoided with Rifts BG.
The one thing that just baffles me is PB never had a pointman living over there for a few months to oversee production.
You cant trust the Chinese factories if you arent on them.
I saw pics of RRTs factory... peasant dudes in open toe sandals working industrial grade presses... its a mess over there."
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is fromPB's FB page. This guy actually thinks this is a positive defense of PB and RH.
So...RRT all went wrong because of the fact they used a Chinese factory. The gRifts board game, however, will be using a [fillinthebank] factory?
n815e wrote: "it looks fantastic.
But until I can be proven wrong, Rifts BG will be overseen by Artists... not actual, real project managers.
I know the end result will be great.
I just am saying its normal for these things to get delayed.
My comments relate to actual production... not what the guys in the US are up to.
Its the Chinese.
Dealing with Chinese factories was a logistical nightmare for Robotech and is the reason its such a mess.
RRT should be considered a dry run financed from other backers, surely the mistakes taken with RRT will be avoided with Rifts BG.
The one thing that just baffles me is PB never had a pointman living over there for a few months to oversee production.
You cant trust the Chinese factories if you arent on them.
I saw pics of RRTs factory... peasant dudes in open toe sandals working industrial grade presses... its a mess over there."
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is fromPB's FB page. This guy actually thinks this is a positive defense of PB and RH.
n815e tell that guy he has no clue what hes talking about, couple of my friends design and sell custom parts for LEGO, they deal with china for production, they have no issues with their product getting made, they are one man operations and have nobody in China to "oversee" production.
as it goes PB is a joke and the RBG will go the same way of RRT, I warned them that is all I can do which is more then any of them did for me. problem is the way the funding is going on RBG it will barely fund say it gets $100K right off the top $39K will be taken by the US under taxes, not including state sales tax, and maybe even Canadian taxes (why a Canadian company would say its in the US is beyond me), and that right there might be enough to cause Carmen to kill himself.
I'll be honest with you all those so called pro- RBG backers and white knights and such are acting like they want to screw over backers and destroy Carmen, you do a kickstarter and it funds and do not complete it nor refund it, you are ruined plain and simple. you can file bankruptcy all you want but your reputation will be ruined.
evilsmurf wrote: Wow. The defenders of the faith are certainly out in force on the kickstarter page arent they? .
It's even a lot of the same shills from back in the early 00s. It's always the same thing. Everyone else is a hater, and they always share their great testimonials on the sainthood of Unca Kev.
I find it interesting nobody is mentioning how if by chance the game is funded it could be bought for cheaper then the KS price and received sooner so why are people kickstarting again?
well this is what I sent Kickstarter about this project to see what happens:
This project is in violation of your rules and guidelines and federal law in the US:
1: this project creator states it is located in Livonia, Mi. but a check of said company in that state or even in the USA does not exist, said company on their own website does state they are located in Canada.
2: said project is selling product in their project (under add-ons) related to another company and that is just product being resold which violates your rules here: "Resale. All rewards must have been produced or designed by the project or one of its creators — no reselling things from elsewhere."
3: said project creator came onto another project and threatened the backers that if this project does not fund he will make sure the other project burns. messages can be found here: https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/415122038/comments
RRT should be considered a dry run financed from other backers, surely the mistakes taken with RRT will be avoided with Rifts BG.
It amazes me how comfortable some of the fan friends are that we got ripped off, but that's okay. And they have such faith that "true fans" such as they are going to be immune from this same behavior. "RRT backers aren't true Palladium Fans (tm), they are angry interlopers that don't understand the genius that is Kevin. They deserve to have their money stolen."
Asterios wrote: I find it interesting nobody is mentioning how if by chance the game is funded it could be bought for cheaper then the KS price and received sooner so why are people kickstarting again?
Can you elaborate? Do you just mean from how RRT was handled? Or is there something in this campaign to indicate its cheaper at retail?
Asterios wrote: I find it interesting nobody is mentioning how if by chance the game is funded it could be bought for cheaper then the KS price and received sooner so why are people kickstarting again?
Can you elaborate? Do you just mean from how RRT was handled? Or is there something in this campaign to indicate its cheaper at retail?
well they already released that the MSRP for the game is $100, and we all know most online sellers like MM and such sell below MSRP with very low or free shipping and with the kickstarter charging $100 for the base game(which does not include shipping) and they even said retail will get the game before all of the backers do if not most. you do the math, which avenue will be cheaper to get them game?
but lets face facts this game will bomb hard core at retail, most of those who will buy the game are getting it now and considering the pledges are slowing down considerably, its now debatable it will even fund, furthermore the pledges will take a hit when they are forced to remove the Palladium product which violates KS's rules and so forth, the game is too high priced for what you get and the average player only the true fan friends will pay that much.
when doing board games the highest price point you want to go is $50 higher then that and your looking at lagging sales at best, and considering the miniatures will be board game pieces attached to the bases, you are not even getting miniatures, just plastic army men. which you will most likely see in bags at your local $1 store if the minis are done in China.
Army men do benefit from economy of scale, softer design, etc. But agreed they're way too expensive for what they are (particularly w dreamforge stormtroopers out there). I'd still pay a premium for certain figs like the Ley Line Walker, Combat Borg, Grackletooth, etc.
n815e wrote: The thing that really got me was this line:
RRT should be considered a dry run financed from other backers, surely the mistakes taken with RRT will be avoided with Rifts BG.
It amazes me how comfortable some of the fan friends are that we got ripped off, but that's okay. And they have such faith that "true fans" such as they are going to be immune from this same behavior. "RRT backers aren't true Palladium Fans (tm), they are angry interlopers that don't understand the genius that is Kevin. They deserve to have their money stolen."
Obviously they learned and it's two completely different situations and companies. In the first case of Robotech, it was Carmen working on the rules for a minis game licensed by Palladium on which he had to have everything approved by the inexperienced in the genre Kevin Siembieda despite another company doing the heavy lifting. In this case of the Rifts board game, it is Carmen working on the rules for a game with minis licensed from Palladium in which he has to have everything approved by the inexperienced Kevin Siembieda despite another company doing the heavy lifting.
That completely different set of circumstances (obviously!) is why unlike with Robotech where Palladium four years later to this day has no proper online support like a gallery, painting tips, tactics, or any other support. Carmen and his completely different Canadian company based in Wayne's garage or Alex's spare bedroom in Michigan or somesuch learned from those mistakes and that's why he was ready to go with this kickstarter with gameplay videos, concrete info on the game mechanics, set in stone manufacturing details, and online websupport like a webpage, gallery, and boardgamegeek entry. You're just a hater if you say otherwise and try to distract Rogue Heroes from answering the real, pressing, and pertinent questions in the comments like "backer: is it awesome?... RHS: Yes it is!"
n815e wrote: The thing that really got me was this line:
RRT should be considered a dry run financed from other backers, surely the mistakes taken with RRT will be avoided with Rifts BG.
It amazes me how comfortable some of the fan friends are that we got ripped off, but that's okay. And they have such faith that "true fans" such as they are going to be immune from this same behavior. "RRT backers aren't true Palladium Fans (tm), they are angry interlopers that don't understand the genius that is Kevin. They deserve to have their money stolen."
Obviously they learned and it's two completely different situations and companies. In the first case of Robotech, it was Carmen working on the rules for a minis game licensed by Palladium on which he had to have everything approved by the inexperienced in the genre Kevin Siembieda despite another company doing the heavy lifting. In this case of the Rifts board game, it is Carmen working on the rules for a game with minis licensed from Palladium in which he has to have everything approved by the inexperienced Kevin Siembieda despite another company doing the heavy lifting.
That completely different set of circumstances (obviously!) is why unlike with Robotech where Palladium four years later to this day has no proper online support like a gallery, painting tips, tactics, or any other support. Carmen and his completely different Canadian company based in Wayne's garage or Alex's spare bedroom in Michigan or somesuch learned from those mistakes and that's why he was ready to go with this kickstarter with gameplay videos, concrete info on the game mechanics, set in stone manufacturing details, and online websupport like a webpage, gallery, and boardgamegeek entry. You're just a hater if you say otherwise and try to distract Rogue Heroes from answering the real, pressing, and pertinent questions in the comments like "backer: is it awesome?... RHS: Yes it is!"
At a glance, any "value" to be found in the campaign versus retail would have to come from stretch goals and/or Exclusives.
That's the KS trap; price for the baseline and things blow up, you end up possibly owing far more in materials to each backer than you can easily of comfortably afford, even with the increased funding. Set the price of the tiers high enough to account for those things, and people will whine about the lack of 'value' until some arbitrary point.
During a campaign late last year, the creators had a graphic on the page showing how their $300 tier had $900 worth of content (so let's call it around $600 even as CSI's prices) and people still complained there 'wasn't enough value'.
The $100 tier was closer to $375 in 'retail value', and that wasn't enough. And I don't think either number reflected a number of KS exclusives the tiers got (some shared, some not).
That said, being at roughly 1/2 the funding goal, and needing to get to ~3 times the current amount just to upgrade the rulebook from B&W to colour probably isn't helping. It's hard to be enthusiastic to need to triple the funding just to colour the pages of the booklet.
Edit: of course, campaigns can choose to offer a target goal at a set price with minor stretch goals, but no, backers these days want KD:M and Zombicide 'omg for $X00 you get a gajillion minis!' and anything less is somehow an affront.
Something that I've come to be frustrated with a number of communities over.
Just because it's not on par with the best, almost nothing is ever good enough.
Forar wrote: At a glance, any "value" to be found in the campaign versus retail would have to come from stretch goals and/or Exclusives.
That's the KS trap; price for the baseline and things blow up, you end up possibly owing far more in materials to each backer than you can easily of comfortably afford, even with the increased funding. Set the price of the tiers high enough to account for those things, and people will whine about the lack of 'value' until some arbitrary point.
During a campaign late last year, the creators had a graphic on the page showing how their $300 tier had $900 worth of content (so let's call it around $600 even as CSI's prices) and people still complained there 'wasn't enough value'.
The $100 tier was closer to $375 in 'retail value', and that wasn't enough. And I don't think either number reflected a number of KS exclusives the tiers got (some shared, some not).
That said, being at roughly 1/2 the funding goal, and needing to get to ~3 times the current amount just to upgrade the rulebook from B&W to colour probably isn't helping. It's hard to be enthusiastic to need to triple the funding just to colour the pages of the booklet.
Edit: of course, campaigns can choose to offer a target goal at a set price with minor stretch goals, but no, backers these days want KD:M and Zombicide 'omg for $X00 you get a gajillion minis!' and anything less is somehow an affront.
Something that I've come to be frustrated with a number of communities over.
Just because it's not on par with the best, almost nothing is ever good enough.
problem is with this project right off the back you are paying twice what the game is worth on a very generous level, most similar board games at their highest are listed at $50 this game is twice that and its a stretch to say its even worth half that amount and because of the high cost of the game compared to retail cost, that has hurt them when it comes to investors, those who buy to sell for more later.
and right now it seems the pledges have stalled, this game will most likely not fund and the big bad meanie RRT backers will be to blame.
It's way too early to say but people have brought up a lot of relevant data regarding the complete lack of foresight Palladium had in promoting the game. Isn't Kevin's updates across the Palladium mailing group enough? Board Game Geek? Why would we promote there? Game play examples? We said it was AWESOME isn't that enough?
We can't tell you about the mechanics because it's a secret like the Colonel's eleven secret herbs and spices but the Wayne, NMI, and Kevin think it's awesome in a non-specific sort of nebulous way.
Are you ready to move your army men next to each other and roll for mega-damage body blocks? Are you ready to roll with the punch to prevent mega damage? Are you really expecting something beyond a watered down version of the RPG rules?
I mean, it could surprise but the silence in face of a few honest questions regarding playability, reviews, thoughts, concrete details is deafening, no?
It has an MRSP of $100, so presumably we'd see it on CSI (if they even picked it up) for $70 or so.
I'm looking at Imperial Assault, which is $100 MRSP ($75 on CSI), and contains 34 minis (as opposed to 22, which I believe the mini count here is?). And more dice, a valuable license, I'm sure some will argue 'better minis', more cards(?), etc, etc, etc, this isn't a perfect comparison, but a ballpark.
That said, I'm guessing FFG is producing in numbers high enough (and has a lucrative enough license to justify that more easily). If Carmen can't get FFG's economy of scale breakpoint, yeah, I can see it ending up being slightly more expensive than it might be otherwise.
This isn't going to be sitting on a million store shelves, most likely. It's a niche game for an existing niche product. Sure, it's more expensive than some other games of it's rough size/scope.
That doesn't make it some kind of nefarious or sinister conspiracy.
And finally, you're not getting it, I'm not getting it, who cares? There are plenty of legit critiques to offer up, but 'it's too expensive'? He set a price, and people can choose to pay it or not. Acting like "it's too expensive" is some kind of affront to consumers is a waste of our time. And it's a catch-22. If it was priced more aggressively I just know you'd be proclaiming that he was under-valuing the product and couldn't possibly make enough to pay for all those molds and plastic and cardboard, but it went a little high, and instead of seeing it as him having some contingency funds included, somehow this is a big deal.
Balancing what people receive versus what they're willing to pay is only fruitful when those people are willing to pay it. We know for a fact you're not, so 'omg it's too expensive' is possibly the least valuable line of critique you can follow.
Like, people have complained about the massive delivery target, but that seems like an improvement over claiming it'll be done in 6 or 7 months. People have complained about the language indicating that not all backers will necessarily get their boxes before retail or convention sales, but... that's not a requirement for Kickstarter. I applaud him at least being up front about it. That kind of transparency is pretty laudable, trying to make it a negative (as some are) feels like just trying to turn everything into some kind of mark against the campaign.
Again, I'm not backing, I don't want it, but sheesh, let's not become 'that guy'. There are legit points of critique to level here, but it doesn't help ones case to seem to be grasping at straws.
Like, who cares if the game is a little more expensive than some other options, didn't you (Rick) find some campaign killer that Kickstarter will be using to shut this gak down asap? How's that coming along?
I mean, it could surprise but the silence in face of a few honest questions regarding playability, reviews, thoughts, concrete details is deafening, no?
"I was led to believe that this would be a Palladium product, and as such there would be no need for concrete answers."
Forar wrote: It has an MRSP of $100, so presumably we'd see it on CSI (if they even picked it up) for $70 or so.
I'm looking at Imperial Assault, which is $100 MRSP ($75 on CSI), and contains 34 minis (as opposed to 22, which I believe the mini count here is?). And more dice, a valuable license, I'm sure some will argue 'better minis', more cards(?), etc, etc, etc, this isn't a perfect comparison, but a ballpark.
That said, I'm guessing FFG is producing in numbers high enough (and has a lucrative enough license to justify that more easily). If Carmen can't get FFG's economy of scale breakpoint, yeah, I can see it ending up being slightly more expensive than it might be otherwise.
This isn't going to be sitting on a million store shelves, most likely. It's a niche game for an existing niche product. Sure, it's more expensive than some other games of it's rough size/scope.
That doesn't make it some kind of nefarious or sinister conspiracy.
And finally, you're not getting it, I'm not getting it, who cares? There are plenty of legit critiques to offer up, but 'it's too expensive'? He set a price, and people can choose to pay it or not. Acting like "it's too expensive" is some kind of affront to consumers is a waste of our time. And it's a catch-22. If it was priced more aggressively I just know you'd be proclaiming that he was under-valuing the product and couldn't possibly make enough to pay for all those molds and plastic and cardboard, but it went a little high, and instead of seeing it as him having some contingency funds included, somehow this is a big deal.
Balancing what people receive versus what they're willing to pay is only fruitful when those people are willing to pay it. We know for a fact you're not, so 'omg it's too expensive' is possibly the least valuable line of critique you can follow.
actually Forar my price point is based on similar board games like zombie 15' (although you get over a 100 minis in that game, mostly zombies), Axis & Allies, etc. etc. miniature games you can go up to the $100 mark but even thouse have more miniatures then what RBG is offering, this game will not be sitting on many if any game shelves and can see it hitting clearance down to $20 on CSI and such.
alos Kickstarter is slow why I also sent said info to a government agency, they have very strict rules and such about certain things.
So, Rogue Heroes set up an LLC next door to Palladium for reasons of potential currency fluctuations in the Canadian Dollar? I mean, they put that up with a straight face? And people are defending it with a straight face as well? There's not red flags going up there's red flares and rockets flying up all over the place.
Sorry, technical difficulties uploading a game play video? Backers can look forward to technical difficulties in regards to communication as well. Sorry, the internet was out and I caught Chinese New Year from a convention holding back production of crud but big things I won't tell you about are Kevining out this year!
Did I get the future updates right?
I feel bad because Palladium is doing such a mad scramble to do all the basic things 99% of board game kickstarters have been doing for the past 2-3 years. Apparently Kevin expected funds to roll in ala Robotech kickstarter and for the first stretch goal to be cleared by now. They found out they have to go into the trenches outside the Palladium multi-verse and look for backing from board gamers in general and that's scary for them. Palladium just discovered they've generated enough ill will in general to be unable to produce a lousy $100K kickstarter the first day and that's a bit humbling for the old Kevster who just realized his actions have REAL WORLD (i.e. financial) consequences to his brand.
Good luck to them generating interest among gamers in general who, yeah, when they think Palladium they think loused up $1.44 million dollar kickstarter that has left a bad taste in everyone's mouth. Kevin's just had the wake up call that the Rifts IP is worth a fantastic $50k from the fanfriends and they now begin the long arduous journey to try to shill and squeeze another $50K (more or less) out of the generally disinterested gamers abroad.
well on a side note if RH did set up a LLC in Michigan that means they are going to to get hit big time by taxes from the IRS "if" the project funds, furthermore the LLC is a seperate item just for the kickstarter, that there should be ringing alarm bells all over the place because it protects the parent company while leaving something they can just drop and nothing will come of it., but on a good point for Carmen it looks like the project will not fund.
Forar wrote: It has an MRSP of $100, so presumably we'd see it on CSI (if they even picked it up) for $70 or so.
I'm looking at Imperial Assault, which is $100 MRSP ($75 on CSI), and contains 34 minis (as opposed to 22, which I believe the mini count here is?). And more dice, a valuable license, I'm sure some will argue 'better minis', more cards(?), etc, etc, etc, this isn't a perfect comparison, but a ballpark.
That said, I'm guessing FFG is producing in numbers high enough (and has a lucrative enough license to justify that more easily). If Carmen can't get FFG's economy of scale breakpoint, yeah, I can see it ending up being slightly more expensive than it might be otherwise.
This isn't going to be sitting on a million store shelves, most likely. It's a niche game for an existing niche product. Sure, it's more expensive than some other games of it's rough size/scope.
That doesn't make it some kind of nefarious or sinister conspiracy.
And finally, you're not getting it, I'm not getting it, who cares? There are plenty of legit critiques to offer up, but 'it's too expensive'? He set a price, and people can choose to pay it or not. Acting like "it's too expensive" is some kind of affront to consumers is a waste of our time. And it's a catch-22. If it was priced more aggressively I just know you'd be proclaiming that he was under-valuing the product and couldn't possibly make enough to pay for all those molds and plastic and cardboard, but it went a little high, and instead of seeing it as him having some contingency funds included, somehow this is a big deal.
Balancing what people receive versus what they're willing to pay is only fruitful when those people are willing to pay it. We know for a fact you're not, so 'omg it's too expensive' is possibly the least valuable line of critique you can follow.
Like, people have complained about the massive delivery target, but that seems like an improvement over claiming it'll be done in 6 or 7 months. People have complained about the language indicating that not all backers will necessarily get their boxes before retail or convention sales, but... that's not a requirement for Kickstarter. I applaud him at least being up front about it. That kind of transparency is pretty laudable, trying to make it a negative (as some are) feels like just trying to turn everything into some kind of mark against the campaign.
Again, I'm not backing, I don't want it, but sheesh, let's not become 'that guy'. There are legit points of critique to level here, but it doesn't help ones case to seem to be grasping at straws.
Like, who cares if the game is a little more expensive than some other options, didn't you (Rick) find some campaign killer that Kickstarter will be using to shut this gak down asap? How's that coming along?
That was an excellent post!
Exalted!
And it should be required reading here, and should also perhaps inform everyone's posting moving forward too?
I exalted Forar's post, as well. At least the KS is being realistic. Carmen is not CMON, so can't provide the economy of scale that CMON (and FFG) have. Additionally, backers looking for SG's rather than the IP might (would) be less supportive of the project than the fan faithful. Seems from the KS, Carmen can't promise (and that's all that KS and SG's are, promises) more than what he's showing in the KS. Were he do to promise CMON-levels of SG's, the project would *definitely* fail, dragging down the newbie KS backers whom we'd probably want around KS. There will *always* be backers who won't listen, and I think KS is at a point where, if these people leave KS, nobody will notice, and KS might become a better place. Of course, failure is still failure, and Carmen's transparency, while it may be a consolation prize to the faithful, doesn't change how risky this KS is.
EDIT: fwiw, I'm seeing more KS games affording and thus only print enough copies for backers and replacement parts, rounded up to minimum quantities for reduced cost of scale. If the project succeeds, the first printing might (is likely to) only be sold through the Palladium web store. In the case there's enough demand, Carmen might hold another KS for a second printing.
EDIT EDIT: Carmen's not naming the manufacturer. Forget what I said.
I think everyone's points are very true.. besides looking at the games themselves look at the company associated with them.
Fantasy flight games.. solid made games that you can tell are play tested, clear notice where things are in the pipe line and usually ships things on time.
Palladium Games .. Out dated rules with newer things overpowered to make people want to buy it with no concern of balance. .. weekly updates of we
are working on things... but never on time.. just "we are working on it"
Financials are a big thing also.. How many times have we heard Palladium has almost went bankrupt.. It would concern me as investor and one reason
I was under the impression that Ninja division was doing the RTT campaign. Always thought it would be handled more like a CMON project until they jumped
ship or was told too..
If someone has a bad track record and your associated with that person.. what are people going to think..
3. Head to Head Mode: Two players do away with the board and miniatures to compete in a vicious, face to face card game to see who comes out victorious. A fun, fast, abstract card game that is easy to grasp and takes only 15-20 minutes. Can be played almost anywhere.
Is something I may have been interested in. Having a passing interest in RIFTS but no interest in a board game. I would think that having a card game in the box means that the rules are going to be fairly diluted.
"“
@ End Times: I have a manufacturer choose, have my price quotes from them and I will be ready to go once all the final details are sorted. But I will not state who I will be using here, its bad industry practice to do so.
May 9 2017 on Rifts® Board Game"
Holy fartballs. It's now bad practice to tell who is making the figures?
Rogue Heroes Publishing Creator 6 minutes ago
@ End Times: I have a manufacturer choose, have my price quotes from them and I will be ready to go once all the final details are sorted. But I will not state who I will be using here, its bad industry practice to do so.
Really? I mean really? He certainly learned his transparency from good old Unca Kevster. I can just imagine the average kickstarter backer that has no interest in gRifts as a fanboy of the IP thinking the creator was on a solid footing with his ideas of where he was going with this endeavor. I have a manufacturer lined up but it's a secret. Why do you need to know? Just give me the money! These questions are being asked point blank because we've learned from another certain kickstarter to ask these questions BEFORE money is handed over. The obfuscation on DAY TWO is very telling. I mean the hurdles to come and already this kickstarter is getting uncomfortable.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: "“
@ End Times: I have a manufacturer choose, have my price quotes from them and I will be ready to go once all the final details are sorted. But I will not state who I will be using here, its bad industry practice to do so.
May 9 2017 on Rifts® Board Game"
Holy fartballs. It's now bad practice to tell who is making the figures?
Prodos Unicast is my guess. They're a manufacturer with as bad a rep for dragging people around for years as Palladium and therefore a perfect match.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sining wrote: Someone should try posting that in the KS comments and see if the white knights understand sarcasm
Feel free. I won't send you a Palladium style cease and desist letter for infringing on my post's copyright. Heck, I didn't even TM the hell out of it like the Palladium weekly totally not the same company Rifts Board Game updates.
Also glad Carmen is not arsed out about potential shipping complications regarding the UK leaving the EU. Hell with it, I'll cross that bridge in two years. If I even care in two years, by then I'll have blamed Robotech for all my woes and be letting Kevin post updates in the Palladium newsletter to the effect that Robotech AND the gRifts Bored Game are BOTH never far from our minds.
TwoGunBob wrote: So, Rogue Heroes set up an LLC next door to Palladium for reasons of potential currency fluctuations in the Canadian Dollar? I mean, they put that up with a straight face? And people are defending it with a straight face as well? There's not red flags going up there's red flares and rockets flying up all over the place.
Sorry, technical difficulties uploading a game play video? Backers can look forward to technical difficulties in regards to communication as well. Sorry, the internet was out and I caught Chinese New Year from a convention holding back production of crud but big things I won't tell you about are Kevining out this year!
Did I get the future updates right?
I feel bad because Palladium is doing such a mad scramble to do all the basic things 99% of board game kickstarters have been doing for the past 2-3 years. Apparently Kevin expected funds to roll in ala Robotech kickstarter and for the first stretch goal to be cleared by now.
You don't understand the mindset of palladium superfans which trickles down from genre redefining game genius Kevin himself. Why should there be any consequences from Robotech when they're still working on it four years with nothing to show for the last two years even when it was 98% done and ready to manufacture within 40 days? Why should Palladium change their rules when one of the best "features" is the (mandatory) ability to change the rules just to make them function as written? Clearly YOU are the unreasonable one for suggesting something is wrong.
Rogue Heroes Publishing Creator 5 minutes ago
@ George H. Webster III: Will not post info here, that is bad practice and which might result in problems for my manufacturer. As I fear that may be why others are asking. Sorry.
and who is the paranoid ones again ?
also it appears they are already losing some backers who were interested in the game.
ced1106 wrote: Carmen is not CMON, so can't provide the economy of scale that CMON (and FFG) have. Additionally, backers looking for SG's rather than the IP might (would) be less supportive of the project than the fan faithful. Seems from the KS, Carmen can't promise (and that's all that KS and SG's are, promises) more than what he's showing in the KS. Were he do to promise CMON-levels of SG's, the project would *definitely* fail, dragging down the newbie KS backers whom we'd probably want around KS.
$100 is $100, whether I give it to CMoN or PB. When I back something like Zombicide or World of Smog, I'm pre-paying full MSRP for something I can get at a very heavily-discounted price a year later. The difference in the amount paid, coupled with the risk by prepaying needs to be made up via SGs to cover the difference.
ced1106 wrote: Carmen is not CMON, so can't provide the economy of scale that CMON (and FFG) have. Additionally, backers looking for SG's rather than the IP might (would) be less supportive of the project than the fan faithful. Seems from the KS, Carmen can't promise (and that's all that KS and SG's are, promises) more than what he's showing in the KS. Were he do to promise CMON-levels of SG's, the project would *definitely* fail, dragging down the newbie KS backers whom we'd probably want around KS.
$100 is $100, whether I give it to CMoN or PB. When I back something like Zombicide or World of Smog, I'm pre-paying full MSRP for something I can get at a very heavily-discounted price a year later. The difference in the amount paid, coupled with the risk by prepaying needs to be made up via SGs to cover the difference.
SG's ? lol the only one they have up there they will not meet, as it goes it looks like the project will not fund, since the bulk of backers have already joined and the game is not appealing enough to the random gamer who backs such things.
It's almost as if Carmen doesn't seem to realize that Palladium's talk of being in conference with a 'secret manufacturer that they can't reveal for reasons' has laid the groundwork for being about the same as saying he doesn't have one.
Not worried about a manufacturer.
Not worried about potential shipping complications.
Kevin said a two sided board was AWESOME, backers want interlocking tiles to change up a board? They don't know what AWESOME is!
Playtesters? Kevin, Wayne, and NMI said it was awesome! Outside playtesting is for designers that lack faith in their game. You trying to tell me that SPI and Avalon Hill used to have like gaggles of college students come in and put a new game through the paces before selling it? What do they know they went out of business!
I do applaud those asking straight forward questions that should be easy to answer and seeing the kind of obfuscation Rogue Heroes is casting where it should be easily transparent.
To those egging him on with more aggressive talk, I'd seriously relax because there's no need to be hostile as Rogue Heroes is demonstrating an inability to answer simple game and manufacturing related questions no need to make it any more hostile than it's been.
There's always backsliding during the middle stretch of the kickstarter, the majority comes in during the first two days and the last two days with the middle stretch losing some funding because backers are adjusting their pledges, or switching to other projects, etc. Unless you see a massive backslide a few days going negative isn't abnormal. The difference of $1,000 could be a single backer, so it's hardly chicken little territory. Some of the backers for RRT pledged for thousand dollars so maybe one of those whale types changed their pledge?
If things start to backslide more than about 5%-10% then I think it's warranted to start looking for direct connections with the comments and postings.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: "“
@ End Times: I have a manufacturer choose, have my price quotes from them and I will be ready to go once all the final details are sorted. But I will not state who I will be using here, its bad industry practice to do so.
May 9 2017 on Rifts® Board Game"
Holy fartballs. It's now bad practice to tell who is making the figures?
Yes and no,
If you say you're using Mr Ying's Figure Emporium and then down the road they jack the price up to something you can't afford (or you lowballed your costs expecting a higher KS take than you got), or they turn around and say sorry, we're now booked up for the next decade making happy meal toys you may not be able to use them and people get upset
(you might also worry about a competitor getting in their first and taking up the space you expected to get)
so if you were somebody I trusted I'd be fine with a general idea of the quality level eg a prototype, or another game the factory was involve with (even if they aren't identified)
after all even mantic are only saying 'old manufacturer' and 'new manufacturer' when somethings clearly gone wrong with their vehicle kit manufacture
however in this case it's not going to help as this is one where saying where things are going to get done is probably needed
paulson games wrote: There's always backsliding during the middle stretch of the kickstarter, the majority comes in during the first two days and the last two days with the middle stretch losing some funding because backers are adjusting their pledges, or switching to other projects, etc. Unless you see a massive backslide a few days going negative isn't abnormal. The difference of $1,000 could be a single backer, so it's hardly chicken little territory. Some of the backers for RRT pledged for thousand dollars so maybe one of those whale types changed their pledge?
If things start to backslide more than about 5%-10% then I think it's warranted to start looking for direct connections with the comments and postings.
well we are at day 2 and already it slid down $2K or so since it was near $59K when RH made their post about not giving up their manufacturer because they were afraid someone would say something to them.
also when you compare the first days numbers:
day 1: $48,161
day 2: $9,615
that is a fairly big dip and it will only get worse from here on out and with the potential of even more dropping their pledges and very few new ones being picked up.
in fact would not be surprised if a bunch of their "Fans" who also worked on the project and signed up as backers, will back out too to avoid losing money.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: however in this case it's not going to help as this is one where saying where things are going to get done is probably needed
Yep. IIRC, On Conan and Cthulhu Wars, two First Created projects with staff more experienced than Carmen, they at least told backers they were using Ludofact Asia and Panda Games.
EDIT: Comments section says they're still looking for quotes. Uh... sounds familiar. I forgot the KS, but I've heard of manufacturers *raising* their quotes once they found out how much money the KS made.
Some of the stuff he's saying is copy pasted from Palladium over the past 3-4 years and I'm not sure if he came to the same groupthink conclusion that is spoon fed to all white knights or if he's just being sarcastic and purposely quoting Kevin's useless years of Robotech platitudes as reassurances for this project.
Stepping down because no one wants to jump in bed with a kickstarter that has terms and conditions with verbiage to allow for ALL the shenanigans Palladium pulled? When asked a few basic questions he sounds almost verbatim like Palladium does now regarding their failure to do anything for the past three years. What did he expect? For all the supposed distance Carmen's remarks sound like a mimic of Unca Kev only Carmen can't get away with it because he doesn't have the money yet. He really should have figured out his answers to these questions from day one. What did he expect? He found out $50k worth of people will throw money at him blindly but he's going to have to work for the other half and actually be transparent. You can only tell backers to shut up with their pesky questions AFTER you've bilked them out of their hard earned Quatloos.
Completely in accordance with their "we can change anything at anytime" disclaimer, you could pledge for a board game with dozens of minis and instead 4 years later get a photocopied pamphlet and a sheet of paper minis and it would all be good according to the contract you signed as a backer. Convienently, the guy who for years has been selling paper "miniatures" under Palladium's banner on drivethrurpg is a comments white knight for them and was IIRC a listed artist (madmanmike) on the front page graphics previously although that seems to have been removed in their latest revision (he also doesn't have the "collaborator" label on his profile).
edit: he is still listed in the text credits. I'll let Jaymz or someone more in the know double check me but I'm pretty sure "Mike Leonard" is madmanmike from my years mostly lurking on the Palladium forums.
Some of the stuff he's saying is copy pasted from Palladium over the past 3-4 years and I'm not sure if he came to the same groupthink conclusion that is spoon fed to all white knights or if he's just being sarcastic and purposely quoting Kevin's useless years of Robotech platitudes as reassurances for this project.
i'm gonna say hes a plant, why? because the same things hes accusing the RBG backers of doing he did on other projects he backed. which I find odd accuse other projects of the same thing he finds ok with RBG.
If he's a plant, there's a whole lotta fever going on -- HAYfever!
Looks like they're in that classic, "in the absence of no information, the internet will argue a lot and make something up", KS comments are debating about the manufacturer. One of the posters says not to do the miniatures in China. I guess he expects Carmen to afford what 99.99% of all plastic injection molding KS cannot. AMP: "I was thinking that a manufacturer in China is a bad thing, but others are noting that mostly this work is done in China and what really matters is the company, Admittedly I don't know much about this Rogue heroes or the other KS but I'm figuring it out." AMP also backed Up Front and has FOUR -- count 'em -- FOUR KS he's backed. Yeah, wise to take KS advice from him!
Just saw the first two-minute gameplay video. Five years to develop this. It's a miniatures skirmish game where you play a card to give a bonus to your die roll to hit, you opponent may play a card to give a bonus to his die to defend, and other cards affect damage. I think I saw this sort of mechanic in... everywhere else. RIFTS fans should be okay with the mechanic. Carmen's called this a "dudes on a map" game in the PB forums (no, "dudes on a map" is Blood Rage and Rising Sun), and a Descent-like game (no, Descent has an Overlord player or app).
edit: he is still listed in the text credits. I'll let Jaymz or someone more in the know double check me but I'm pretty sure "Mike Leonard" is madmanmike from my years mostly lurking on the Palladium forums.
Yeah... that sounds right... he is the guy doing the poser pictures... can't force myself to call it artwork.
ced1106 wrote: If he's a plant, there's a whole lotta fever going on -- HAYfever!
oh I forgot too mention according to him he has the same attorney as Kevin does which considering attorney client privilege it behooves one to wonder how AMP would know he had the same attorney as Kevin unless Kevin and him are friends or such?
also it beggars the question, how many shills does PB/RH have on that project?
If this doesn't fund, no worries. Carmen will just cancel this KS and relaunch it with a much lowered funding goal that will coincide greatly with the previously KSed amount
Sining wrote: If this doesn't fund, no worries. Carmen will just cancel this KS and relaunch it with a much lowered funding goal that will coincide greatly with the previously KSed amount
Carmen could not even complete the project with but a $100K he definitely could not do it with less then that.
These people in full fan support of this just makes me shake my head.
I like Rifts, always have...but I can read and know a when I see a bad investment.
Shame really, because KS is perfect for companies like Palladium who need that extra push to help them get more recognition.
But you have to follow through or else people only know you for how you handle yourself in bad times.
Merijeek wrote: Is anyone defending them over there NOT on the payroll?
It's not payroll. It's worse. Some people refuse to admit they're wrong, so, rather than acknowledge evidence, will dig in their heels and entrench themselves further in their position. On the internet, it's typically calling the opposition "haters", which is the socially acceptable way of labeling and dehumanizing others, much like people do when making racist comments or propaganda machines do against in a war against an enemy. Here's a link to a Quora thread for some psychological reasons why some people cannot be wrong. Yes, "narcissism" is mentioned.
ProtoClone wrote: These people in full fan support of this just makes me shake my head.
Hey, some people think KS is a store!
Some people WANT something to happen so much (and either have enough discretionary income, or lack basic budget skills) enough that they'll cut a check. Or, in the case of KS, Stripe the credit card. They will call themselves the victims, they will see themselves as martyrs. They are fighting the man! They will support the cause! They are special snowflakes. They'll be out $100 plus shipping, too. Viva la revolution!
TwoGunBob wrote: Stepping down because no one wants to jump in bed with a kickstarter that has terms and conditions with verbiage to allow for ALL the shenanigans Palladium pulled? When asked a few basic questions he sounds almost verbatim like Palladium does now regarding their failure to do anything for the past three years. What did he expect? For all the supposed distance Carmen's remarks sound like a mimic of Unca Kev only Carmen can't get away with it because he doesn't have the money yet. He really should have figured out his answers to these questions from day one. What did he expect? He found out $50k worth of people will throw money at him blindly but he's going to have to work for the other half and actually be transparent. You can only tell backers to shut up with their pesky questions AFTER you've bilked them out of their hard earned Quatloos.
If you haven't figured it out... THIS is a Palladium sock monkey. The whole project is a Gakshow of epic proportions, bordering on a presale Garage sale site. It is as if I took my old stuff from my closet and am offering it as "Presale " stretch goals. If you don't know, there is a LOT more bang to noise on the topic of Palladium, then there is in any other game company known to man. It is almost as if they attract the lowest form of gamer, the sycophant.
Like has been said, get the popcorn and watch the sparks fly.
Okay, we have pics of the painted 3D prints of the models in the first post of this thread and the KS has some god-awful, shadow-shrouded pics of the "minis" on the KS turning what was a halfway professional looking page into amateur night. Ditto for the laminated and clearly home-printed materials (half of which said materials DON'T come with the KS).
Why aren't Elysium6's pics on the KS page? They're a hundred times better than what's there now.
Stormonu wrote: Okay, we have pics of the painted 3D prints of the models in the first post of this thread and the KS has some god-awful, shadow-shrouded pics of the "minis" on the KS turning what was a halfway professional looking page into amateur night. Ditto for the laminated and clearly home-printed materials (half of which said materials DON'T come with the KS).
Why aren't Elysium6's pics on the KS page? They're a hundred times better than what's there now.
Stormonu wrote: Okay, we have pics of the painted 3D prints of the models in the first post of this thread and the KS has some god-awful, shadow-shrouded pics of the "minis" on the KS turning what was a halfway professional looking page into amateur night. Ditto for the laminated and clearly home-printed materials (half of which said materials DON'T come with the KS).
Why aren't Elysium6's pics on the KS page? They're a hundred times better than what's there now.
And THAT my friend- is the $1,000.00 question.
Did you say $1,000.00??? Kevin wants to be your friend
warboss wrote: Completely in accordance with their "we can change anything at anytime" disclaimer, you could pledge for a board game with dozens of minis and instead 4 years later get a photocopied pamphlet and a sheet of paper minis and it would all be good according to the contract you signed as a backer. Convienently, the guy who for years has been selling paper "miniatures" under Palladium's banner on drivethrurpg is a comments white knight for them and was IIRC a listed artist (madmanmike) on the front page graphics previously although that seems to have been removed in their latest revision (he also doesn't have the "collaborator" label on his profile).
edit: he is still listed in the text credits. I'll let Jaymz or someone more in the know double check me but I'm pretty sure "Mike Leonard" is madmanmike from my years mostly lurking on the Palladium forums.
So, what you're saying is that everyone working for Rogue Heroes works for PB and that all PB staff works for Rogue Heroes, but they are in no way or form the same company, is that it?
And just like that I'm back and in before the sunrises... Project is at 59K
And guess what, I did a search of the stats on my blog. And while I can't search the specific IPs I have a 8 IP locater (someone searching for me) searches at my blog... I honestly, thought someone from here had sent me those bad emails. And now I don't think so (do I sound crazy, yet). I'm not 100% but someone is defiantly looking into me and my actual physical location. Or am I still crazy... And someone here is having a bit of fun? This has sparked me to action. That's what I get I suppose being dumb enough to use my own name in some of my forums... Ah well.
I made a pic, but I'll have to load it up to share it.
Yes, I'm a nerd and the coffee is just hitting me.
Game on-
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh! and I forgot... I plan to take some actions. Please in whatever I post steal it liberally as it relates to the RBG Kickstarter. Just think of me as Professor Green from Clue. Memes welcome if you have them...lol
In that above link we get this gem from KS; bolded emphasis is mine:
"He had not been around Palladium Books much the past 3-4 years, because he was busy creating games for his own fledgling company, Rogue Heroes LLC, which he has hopes to launch in spectacular fashion with the Rifts® Board Game as his first release. This would be done via a Kickstarter campaign in April, 2017. In addition to this endeavor, Carmen works a full-time, 9-5 job, as well as doing freelance game design for Upper Deck.
1) Doing a google search of to see what sort of games this fledgling company has so far developed, reveals... NOTHING! Maybe we misunderstand the word fledgling though...
Def: "a person or organization that is immature, inexperienced, or underdeveloped." Interesting choice of words there Mr. S I couldn't have said it better myself...
2) Lets catch that second bold, by doing a google search of: "Carmen Bellaire, Upper Deck"
"...and shared information on an upcoming miniatures game Deus Machina The game is designed by Carmen Bellaire. “He’s done a lot of work on old style RPG games,” Brenner shared. “He’s done some work for Palladium. He’s done a lot of sourcebook writing, he’s a really talented guy. He’s designed a pretty good system here as well.”
Now a search of Deus Machina reveals nothing the game is not (if it will be), yet released. However Brenner is a minor (within the niche of games at least) celebrity. And he is about and on Board Game Geek so I shot him (you're welcome) the following PM.
Hello Jason,
Good-Morning. My apologies for bothering you in such a random fashion. Carmen Bellaire has launched a crowdsource for his own company. Associates, are making note that he is a freelancer p/t for Upper Deck.
I can't find Carmen's name listed as a creator with the exception of "Deus Machina." Which after a search of that I get you, but nothing about the game, because it hasn't been produced/released.
Is Carmen still freelancing/consulting with Upper Deck? Has he designed or acted as a consultant for any other games, which have been produced, or will be?
Or is it just that my "google-fu" is not as strong as I thought...
If you have time, and thanks
We wait patiently on this, while searching for other nuggets to investigate!
(if someone has the meme, of professor green getting smacked after screaming, "Mrs Peacock was a man?" I think it would be appropriate to meme it now!)
So, what you're saying is that everyone working for Rogue Heroes works for PB and that all PB staff works for Rogue Heroes, but they are in no way or form the same company, is that it?
Nope. I'm saying that you have alot of same key people in the same key roles doing the same key jobs (Carmen is developing rules, palladium artists are doing art, Kevin is approving, Wayne is likely editing, etc) for money... but now with TWO additional different company names thrown into the mix and a different license agreement to muddy the waters. It's two because Rogue Heroes is legally two different new start up companies now, one in the US and the other in Canada. I wouldn't go as far as saying "everyone" though is on staff at all three as I don't have access to any info beyond the info they supply themselves..
Maybe by Friday Unca Kevster will already be taking the reigns of kickstarter communications over. They're going through Palladium employees faster than that burrito I ate last night is going through my digestive system.
Asterios wrote: pity you can only report on one thing on the report this project button.
Unfortunately, I think Kickstarter has you on 'Ignore' now.
Also, what is wrong with <shift> key?
no when you go to the report this project button you can only send in one report on one item, I clicked the resale portion button which says it is against their policy to sell product put out by other companies.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: So is that AMP (he is good) guy trolling Rogue Heroes by pretending to be an insane Palladium fan, or is he actually an insane Palladium fan?
seems like a typical Palladium fan too me, who may have ties to PB.
Asterios wrote: pity you can only report on one thing on the report this project button.
Unfortunately, I think Kickstarter has you on 'Ignore' now.
Also, what is wrong with <shift> key?
no when you go to the report this project button you can only send in one report on one item, I clicked the resale portion button which says it is against their policy to sell product put out by other companies.
No, you misunderstand.
I am not kidding - given your history on Kickstarter, I'm not sure they're actually paying attention to anything you send them.
Oh, his trolling credentials seem pretty legit. His comedy is sort of a mixed bag, though. The Latin stuff kind of tickled me but some of the other stuff missed the mark. He needs to refine his act a little more because he has to stretch the AMP persona out for almost a month. I implore him not to use all his best material in the first week.
Asterios wrote: pity you can only report on one thing on the report this project button.
Unfortunately, I think Kickstarter has you on 'Ignore' now.
Also, what is wrong with <shift> key?
no when you go to the report this project button you can only send in one report on one item, I clicked the resale portion button which says it is against their policy to sell product put out by other companies.
No, you misunderstand.
I am not kidding - given your history on Kickstarter, I'm not sure they're actually paying attention to anything you send them.
Interesting... some time before launch Rogue Heroes did register in MI (I checked back in March and they didn't exist, at least below the hat)
And their corporate registration docs have nothing identifying who the principals are.
They were submitted & signed by an attorney and the only principal agent is the CT corporation- a process server in Plymouth.
Nothing to tell you if this is owned by Carmen or Kevin... or an unrelated company altogether, particularly considering the city difference.
I wonder how much their KS funds will drop if/when the PB/PG stuff gets removed as add-ons.
I'm simply amazed how badly set-up this KS is. Open a LLC in the USA to avoid $CAN dollar flux (which hit the Heavy Gear KS by Dream Pod 9), but get hit by the US revenue agency because of it. Or, you could open a USD account and avoid the hassle.
No manufacturer lined up - that they can admit to. Almost zero add-ons lined up (come on, display at least 6 to start with). One piece minis that will 'retail' at GW prices. No game-play videos or reviews at campaign start.
Palladium should be sending thank-you letters to Ninja Division until the end of time for setting up their RTTKS if this is the best they can manage on their own.
John Prins wrote: I wonder how much their KS funds will drop if/when the PB/PG stuff gets removed as add-ons.
I'm simply amazed how badly set-up this KS is. Open a LLC in the USA to avoid $CAN dollar flux (which hit the Heavy Gear KS by Dream Pod 9), but get hit by the US revenue agency because of it. Or, you could open a USD account and avoid the hassle.
No manufacturer lined up - that they can admit to. Almost zero add-ons lined up (come on, display at least 6 to start with). One piece minis that will 'retail' at GW prices. No game-play videos or reviews at campaign start.
Palladium should be sending thank-you letters to Ninja Division until the end of time for setting up their RTTKS if this is the best they can manage on their own.
yeah not sure Carmen is aware of him getting hit with like 39% taxes in the US on what he funds for, or that the LLC will not protect him from paying taxes either, nor will bankruptcy
he might have been better off staying in Canada, since not so sure of their tax rate there.
also if the PB/PG stuff is removed they will lose a chunk of backers me thinks, since heard a few say they backed just for the PG add-ons and such.
Asterios wrote: yeah not sure Carmen is aware of him getting hit with like 39% taxes in the US on what he funds for, or that the LLC will not protect him from paying taxes either, nor will bankruptcy
he might have been better off staying in Canada, since not so sure of their tax rate there.
also if the PB/PG stuff is removed they will lose a chunk of backers me thinks, since heard a few say they backed just for the PG add-ons and such.
In brief, the crowdsourced funds are taxable, but the rewards are business expenses*. The rate is 38%, which is still lower than the USA, take that for what you will.
(*) which opens shenanigans if you account for rewards at 'retail value' rather than 'cost'. I'm not an accountant, though.
Asterios wrote: yeah not sure Carmen is aware of him getting hit with like 39% taxes in the US on what he funds for, or that the LLC will not protect him from paying taxes either, nor will bankruptcy
he might have been better off staying in Canada, since not so sure of their tax rate there.
also if the PB/PG stuff is removed they will lose a chunk of backers me thinks, since heard a few say they backed just for the PG add-ons and such.
In brief, the crowdsourced funds are taxable, but the rewards are business expenses*. The rate is 38%, which is still lower than the USA, take that for what you will.
(*) which opens shenanigans if you account for rewards at 'retail value' rather than 'cost'. I'm not an accountant, though.
An old guy at my church gave me the following advice: "In order to succeed, you need 3 things; a good lawyer, a good accountant, and a good banker." If you're starting a business without these 3 things, you're shooting yourself in the foot.
An old guy at my church gave me the following advice: "In order to succeed, you need 3 things; a good lawyer, a good accountant, and a good banker." If you're starting a business without these 3 things, you're shooting yourself in the foot.
yeah but something tells me Carmen has none of those or seriously lacking an Accountant, since the way this kickstarter was kicked off its haphazard, they are making things up as they go along and already let a couple of fires get out of control, also the "whiteknighters" who also happen to be on the credits of the game are not helping them either but costing them backers.
I totally hold my lighter up for the backer suggesting Palladium funnel all remaining Robotech funds into the sinking ship that is the gRifts board game. Well played, sir, well played. Palladium might as well, after all, whether the $0.00 balance is in the Palladium account or Rogue Heroes' account makes little difference to me.
I'm pretty sure Carmen is looking pretty sour about Kevin's assurances that the Palladium fanfriends will EASILY hand over $100k. All he has to do is watch the money roll in, then he can quit his 9-5, rest easy on the funds for a year, then start making nebulous updates when the comment section gets hot.
I think between licensing, taxes, and general mismanagement in anticipating overheads Carmen will find the real stress isn't the comments section but rather trying to juggle the finances because he's in a position where those slices of the pie are going to be pretty mean and leave him potentially starving.
It's sad to see Kevin forcing so much stress on Carmen. I also feel bad for Carmen being stuck with a support chain that runs business as if it's still 1986 and is completely unprepared to help him get through something modern like Kickstarter. As long as he has been working on the game you'd think they all would have researched other successful board game kickstarters rather than just assuming the Rifts IP was worth big dollars.
Seems most of the fanfriends trying to quell the burning questions with gasoline are also operating as if these blundering and sputtering business practices are how EVERY kickstarter does it. They keep saying they NEVER have heard of kickstarters doing this or that and then when given examples just bulldoze through that BESIDES those just listed they have never heard of this poppycock the 'trolls' are bringing up. Call in Steve McQueen this went from a dumpster fire to a towering inferno.
But... That's a UK site! What do they know about making games in the good old USA errr.... I mean Canada! This may apply to British or even EU games development but I fail to see how it has any bearing on making games in North America.
Actually that is a very good primer on what basic wrinkles in development are presented in manufacture of a board game. As is, I can't help but feel Palladium/Rogue Heroes would be completely dumbfounded by that information as they never thought about any of that.
TwoGunBob wrote: But... That's a UK site! What do they know about making games in the good old USA errr.... I mean Canada! This may apply to British or even EU games development but I fail to see how it has any bearing on making games in North America.
Actually that is a very good primer on what basic wrinkles in development are presented in manufacture of a board game. As is, I can't help but feel Palladium/Rogue Heroes would be completely dumbfounded by that information as they never thought about any of that.
the way i'm seeing this project go i'm fairly certain it is mostly alien to them.
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I'd say board game development in general is alien to them. I mean , it seems most of their collective research was into making the terms of service bulletproof to all the bone headed, backer angering shenanigans that Palladium pulled. We can sell at conventions before backers, we can sell to the public before shipping to backers, we can make exclusives available to the public but not backers, we can change anything we want.
Basically it's a list of backer unfriendly terms that should leave anyone asking, "Why should I give them money now when I can buy it before backers at a convention or possibly at 20% of MSRP at an online retailer?"
Seems Palladium's guiding hand was a heavy one in making sure they could point to terms and services when they start being hostile to the backers. There's nothing to foster any reason to back this project other than you think Carmen is just one cool dude that should be able to quit his 9-5 to design games.
No incentives, no answers, general bone headed handling of questions with lots of answers creepily similar to Palladium POST-KS answers. Compounded with Palladium shills trying to shout down anyone asking questions and pretending the 'veil of mystery' is the way ALL kickstarters are run.
TwoGunBob wrote: "Why should I give them money now when I can buy it before backers at a convention or possibly at 20% of MSRP at an online retailer?"
More like: "Why should I risk fronting money to a known failed project team, when I can eventually buy under half price and zero risk from Miniature Market, assuming the game isn't terrible?"
TwoGunBob wrote: "Why should I give them money now when I can buy it before backers at a convention or possibly at 20% of MSRP at an online retailer?"
More like: "Why should I risk fronting money to a known failed project team, when I can eventually buy under half price and zero risk from Miniature Market, assuming the game isn't terrible?"
Yeah, I don't want to be all "there so screwed" like Rick, but they hit their slump extremely early, and their one stretch goal is both a big jump from the funding goal, is pretty blah, and they don't have any listed beyond that.
Seems to me at this point that the only way they make it to their funding goal is if the remaining RRT money gets plowed into this thing.
Merijeek wrote: Yeah, I don't want to be all "there so screwed" like Rick, but they hit their slump extremely early, and their one stretch goal is both a big jump from the funding goal, is pretty blah, and they don't have any listed beyond that.
Seems to me at this point that the only way they make it to their funding goal is if the remaining RRT money gets plowed into this thing.
Thing of it is, people are expecting that end of project boost, problem with that is those boosts happen because of backers trying to get to the stretch goals, the lack of stretch goals pretty much doomed this project.
That and they only pretty much marketed the game towards Rift's fans, they are ignoring the board game group entirely.
I would be surprised if this project did over $80K but right now its not looking so well.
And if that happens - what are they odds that they actually deliver?
Not good, I'd think.
I think that just barely funding (like, $103K) would probably be the worst possible outcome for this campaign; even assuming that the funds would cover the costs, then you also have to take into account Carmen can keep juggling this and his day job (which $100K won't allow him to quit to work on this full time) without breaking...again.
Alpharius wrote: Best bet might just be to cancel, rethink the campaign, and relaunch with something a bit more than what they've got now.
See, that's the thing - Carmen has been adamant that this has to GET DONE NOW, which leads me to believe that the license is ready to expire, and he doesn't currently have funds to extend it any further; thus, the campaign is needed to generate funds for the project's continued existence.
I mean, clearly Kev could help out his dear friend in his hour of need, but Unka Kevy gots to get PAID.
As a side note, the Rogue Heroes folks have been cagey about where the add-on material is coming from. Perhaps the warehouse security is still a little lacking over at PB, maybe some books fell off a truck...
Say, Carmen's a truck driver! It all makes sense now.
I don't want to get into that clusterfeth KS even for a dollar, but I have this retort for a comment there:
tags wrote:
Ok.....I want ONE of you to show me where money was spent where it wasn't supposed to be, i dare you.
DON'T think that just because you don't have your product that means the money was misspent .
That's easy, the Feb 2015/2016 3D prints to "show off" some of the remaining models we haven't recieved yet. Yes, that was money well-spent; it's not for demo play pieces nor to "test" out the 3D models, but a mere vanity project to "prove" they're still sooooooo working on RRT.
I googled Tirrvolian Sword Fester and think maybe the kickstarter creators might actually be descended from them IRL.
Mush Mouth (-2): The Tirrvol spoken language is reminiscent of the vocalizations made by dolphins, and as a result they have trouble with most other spoken languages. As well as taking a -2 to speech-based uses of Intimidation, Persuasion, and Taunt, they cannot take Arcane Backgrounds that employ spoken spells (which includes the Ley Line Walker and Mystic IFs).
Ahh, Jim Lawson. He can be a good, even great artist, especially when Kevin Eastman or Peter Laird are inking him (see Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles issues 19-21) and he did some decent stuff for Palladium's TMNT RPG (Mutants Down Under and Transdimensional TMNT are largely illustrated by him).
it seems this projects pledges are dropping by 4/5ths every day, first day about $48K, second day a little over $10K and today around $2K. not looking good for it funding especially when some of the interested backers are wavering and question it since they are not getting much needed answers to good questions.
Are Carmen and Drew really that thick? It's like they don't realize that the parent company Palladium has played the mysterious manufacturer game for three years. He should edit his comment to say 'It's common practice among miniature companies not planning to produce miniatures to keep their nonexistent manufacturer confidential'. People are asking because they don't believe you have one. And they continue to adhere to Unca Kev's 'what we do is secret' line of thought. Guys, guys, guys, that only works AFTER you get the money.
They could just say they're using the best manufacturer EVER and then announce in their first updates that budgetary constraints have sent them looking for a cheaper alternative that must remain secret.
By terms or service that's legit. Rotten to the core and borderline fraudulent and skating thin ice but it's not like anyone could get refunds anyway. Also not like kickstarter would do anything about it. After all, backers were WARNED that things could change.
Well it seems you can now get a glitterboy for your game at $28 wow, just by that it tells me this project will neither fund nor be delivered if it does fund by some miracle.
My guess is that he uses a straight razor shaving style technique. In any case, that's the basis for the kickstarter exclusive mini. If you weren't excited already, I imagine you are now!
TwoGunBob wrote: They could just say they're using the best manufacturer EVER and then announce in their first updates that budgetary constraints have sent them looking for a cheaper alternative that must remain secret.
Like paper standees and a downloadable rules/map PDF to print at your own additional cost for a $150 pledge... and completely allowable under their blanket disclaimer that you agree to when pledging. No refunds or substitutions.. and according to KS's 2014 terms you're lucky if they even give you that since creators are NOT required to fulfill their end as long as they post a laundry list of excuses and a sad story. Even if they did that in RBG, it would still be an improvement over what we've gotten from Robotech Wave 2 after four years.
hmm looking at what they are using for a map I could probably make a fortune selling those backers my Sedition Wars board tiles and such, they would be an improvement me thinks.
also on a side note, the voice over there andrew cooke just violated KS rules big time by outing a backer on how much they pledged, it violated the privacy rules KS has.
Well that Andrew Cooke fellow just told someone that a $1 "bid" wasn't good enough to answer questions. "If you choose to support our kickstarter I'd be happy to answer your questions."
And the approvals roll in. As good as if not better than GW and priced in accordance with every other miniature company's release! If I etch Gletterboi on a dried out piece of green stuff will Rifts fans clamor to buy it?
Edit to add: Wow, Drew just nuked that kickstarter from orbit. Obviously rolled a fumble on his Trollovian Fester Sword charisma check.
Do you seriously think the 100K is the actual minimum needed to manufacture and ship this? With no padding? Seriously? That's the min listed on the KS for funding, but I guarantee they need far less to actually produce. It's like thinking the sticker price on a car is what it actually costs.
I don't know anything about producing boardgames, but I've learned here on Dakka that molds for plastic minis are not cheap.
Jacksmiles wrote: Well that Andrew Cooke fellow just told someone that a $1 "bid" wasn't good enough to answer questions. "If you choose to support our kickstarter I'd be happy to answer your questions."
#popcorntime
yeah but that also goes against kickstarters rules, all information received by the project creator and their employees cannot be used in any manner other then what it was intended to be and what he did it was not to be used that way, think Andrew just killed the project for Carmen.
Creators have the option to appoint collaborators to help manage their project. These collaborators may be able to access some of the information available to creators (including backers’ names, email addresses, pledge amounts, reward selections, messages, and survey responses), and are required to treat backers’ personal information with the same care and respect as creators are.
I'll be curious how Kickstarter handles this one. Given their penchant for siding with creators they'll likely slap Drew on thie wrist, tell him to behave, and ban the guy called out for his bid.
TwoGunBob wrote: I'll be curious how Kickstarter handles this one. Given their penchant for siding with creators they'll likely slap Drew on thie wrist, tell him to behave, and ban the guy called out for his bid.
well you know they will delete the post but it has been screenshotted and it could cause a serious backlash for KS if they do nothing about it, imagine the press, project collaborator releases private information about a backer and kickstarter does nothing about it but delete the incriminating evidence
meanwhile what Andrew just did might have killed the kickstarter anyway, some new voice I never saw before are speaking up now and calling him on that.
yeah but that also goes against kickstarters rules, all information received by the project creator and their employees cannot be used in any manner other then what it was intended to be and what he did it was not to be used that way, think Andrew just killed the project for Carmen.
Man I honestly kind of hope so. I've been keeping myself up to date on the RRT thread, so I kind of expected to see some of the white knights acting how they are in the comments there - but they're fighting "Dudes be very careful this probably isn't on the level" with abuse and much more toxicity than I'm seeing from those burned by RRT. Then the collab shows that much disrespect, likely just to get the white knights fired up against a "troll."
TwoGunBob wrote: I'll be curious how Kickstarter handles this one. Given their penchant for siding with creators they'll likely slap Drew on thie wrist, tell him to behave, and ban the guy called out for his bid.
well you know they will delete the post but it has been screenshotted and it could cause a serious backlash for KS if they do nothing about it, imagine the press, project collaborator releases private information about a backer and kickstarter does nothing about it but delete the incriminating evidence
meanwhile what Andrew just did might have killed the kickstarter anyway, some new voice I never saw before are speaking up now and calling him on that.
I've got a screenshot too, if anyone needs it to host the image somewhere and link to it in the comments every so often
yeah but that also goes against kickstarters rules, all information received by the project creator and their employees cannot be used in any manner other then what it was intended to be and what he did it was not to be used that way, think Andrew just killed the project for Carmen.
Man I honestly kind of hope so. I've been keeping myself up to date on the RRT thread, so I kind of expected to see some of the white knights acting how they are in the comments there - but they're fighting "Dudes be very careful this probably isn't on the level" with abuse and much more toxicity than I'm seeing from those burned by RRT. Then the collab shows that much disrespect, likely just to get the white knights fired up against a "troll."
TwoGunBob wrote: I'll be curious how Kickstarter handles this one. Given their penchant for siding with creators they'll likely slap Drew on thie wrist, tell him to behave, and ban the guy called out for his bid.
well you know they will delete the post but it has been screenshotted and it could cause a serious backlash for KS if they do nothing about it, imagine the press, project collaborator releases private information about a backer and kickstarter does nothing about it but delete the incriminating evidence
meanwhile what Andrew just did might have killed the kickstarter anyway, some new voice I never saw before are speaking up now and calling him on that.
I've got a screenshot too, if anyone needs it to host the image somewhere and link to it in the comments every so often
I hope Steve reports him (by the way who is Steve?) as it goes I already sent in a support ticket.
Jacksmiles wrote: Well that Andrew Cooke fellow just told someone that a $1 "bid" wasn't good enough to answer questions. "If you choose to support our kickstarter I'd be happy to answer your questions."
#popcorntime
Yeah I just saw that myself. If it weren't for the fact that I'm boycotting Palladium over how they're treating the RTT investors that post would cause me to either not invest or pull my investment.
While I'm sure there are a fine cadre of $1 trolls on hand (I'm not following this one closely today), I reject that a $1 contribution isn't sufficient to be able to ask questions worth answering. Those exist on their own merits.
I've backed plenty of campaigns for $1 because I was intrigued by the concept but wasn't willing to commit any substantial amount up front. From that perspective, $1 to get updates (without having to go look for them) and commenting rights, it's a pretty good deal, whether or not I get included in a tier.
In other news... I was going to post about the in for dollar did and got the messege my account was under review...
Which has me flamed. I have posted nothing which violates the ToS... WTG Kickstarter. If this thing funds, KS is certainly doing their due diligence to help it along.
WithintheDungeon wrote: In other news... I was going to post about the in for dollar did and got the messege my account was under review...
Which has me flamed. I have posted nothing which violates the ToS... WTG Kickstarter. If this thing funds, KS is certainly doing their due diligence to help it along.
from what i've noticed the ToS is what ever makes the project creators mad is against the rules.
The only way things will change is if backers quit using it and projects quit funding. RRT killed the Kickstarter format for me because I just don't like gambling and can be patient.
The way I see backers getting treated disgusts me honestly as KS treats them like it was a free to post forum but these are people keeping the lights on for the company.
Ah well, I'm only out for two KS projects and a couple hundred bucks to learn my lesson.
Easy come, easy go, why you got to wreck the KS flow?
It's not so much they want the creators to succeed they just want those sweet sweet backer dollars. And the banhammer to anyone that may make it difficult for them to get their cut.
Hmm, apparently I'm not just feeling the lashings from Palladium, I've apparently developed strong emotions towards Kickstarter.
At least I know I'd pass a Voight Kampff test with my emotional responses.
TwoGunBob wrote: Easy come, easy go, why you got to wreck the KS flow?
It's not so much they want the creators to succeed they just want those sweet sweet backer dollars. And the banhammer to anyone that may make it difficult for them to get their cut.
Hmm, apparently I'm not just feeling the lashings from Palladium, I've apparently developed strong emotions towards Kickstarter.
At least I know I'd pass a Voight Kampff test with my emotional responses.
problem is Kickstarter has been allowed to run free rein by the government with no accountability, the government really needs to step in on that.
Forar wrote: While I'm sure there are a fine cadre of $1 trolls on hand (I'm not following this one closely today), I reject that a $1 contribution isn't sufficient to be able to ask questions worth answering. Those exist on their own merits..
About like Patreon percentages. Creators seldom manage to collect the full 100% of what the website reflects. Patreon is another financial anomaly that I just can't get behind. Lots of people creating content but oddly I just don't feel it's worth an investment and once they get to a certain high level the creator seems to stop work and just coast month to month until their Patreon finally drops and then they apologize and start trying to woo supporters back.
I'm probably just too old and crotchety to understand. Or I don't have as much disposable income to dump on content creators as the rest of the intarwebs.
Maybe at some point it'll be value added to the relatively anemic box contents once a higher stretch goal is met.
at the rate the project is going they will be lucky to fund let alone to make it to the first stretch goal which is a colored rule book(seriously since when is a colored rule book a stretch goal?)
also i'm curious how a 32mm scale figure would fit on a 25mm base since the squares on the map are 1" ?
"Your camp is awakened by Lazer McTazerface scooting across the campsite, leaving a trail of dingleberries across the campsite."
Oh, wait, this is a game using the awful Mega Damage(tm)(r)(etc) mechanic. There's no need to do something like that. All he needs to do is go stand in a bonfire hot enough to shatter ceramic - he'll be fine. That fire doesn't deal Mega Damage(tm)(r)(etc), and as such, Lazer McTazerface won't be harmed and the dingleberries will be vaporized.
My point in the thread was not to troll. Unless asking legit questions as to project is considered as such... I've kept the questions themselves strictly about the project itself. I'm aware that's folks might view it as a troll if the premise is that I'm not backing the Kickstarter no matter what is said. Edit: Not to mention am I to be faulted for the creator's inability to answer these legit questions... I think not. If my crime is knowing ahead that the creator won't or most likely can't answer the questions, then I can live with that.
But given the history of the companies involved, what is my crime exactly...? Since we are literally dealing with people that will do or say anything for the $ and use whoever is foolish enough to back them, in order to fund their own incompetent productions...
What I'm doing is a service, to those who my opinion which likely be just as scammed as the backers of RRT.
I have to say, though, Dakka has shown complete class in the watching of a complete clusterfeth, as they continue to braid the rope that they will be hanging from.
I have a couple of cold Heinekens for TwoGunBob, and our Kickstarter experts Forar, and Asterios as we sit here watching this one go up like the Hindenburg as we get our weenies and marshmallows ready.
WithintheDragon, I am honestly not at all surprised, seeing as the whole comments section will, of course be under review for the Guiness World Record in how fast the destruction of a project category...
I can guarantee that they definatly have the world record in how fast this project has been reported, read and received complaint, and is in all seriousness under review to figure out if Kickstarter even want's to take on the liability that the project is in fact evolving for them, legally.
Between the open "Other " project, the handling by the creators on the whole comment section, the complete lack of transparency, the vitriol that is evolving, and counter devolving, the shenanigans behind the scenes "Palladium side", and the obvious overarching loose depiction of "TOS", Kickstarter Project Rules, and obvious favoritism for a dog of a project, Kickstarter is probably in all rights seeking legal counsel in the areas of "How bad is this one going to hurt us?"
I will wager that most, or if not, all of the contributors to the ..."Lively debate"... have ALL gotten warnings and ban-hammer love taps, as the conversation devolves even further into the realms of insanity, and chaos that only can be found in Palladium comment sections for game discussions.
At this point, I am out of popcorn and into the KFC and Beer levels of watching this in the same interest as watching a high-speed train wreck, or a multivehicle accident.
When the collision happens, I don't know if anyone in there is going to walk out of it.
The only icing on this crapcake would be to hear that Prodos is doing the sculpting....
I'm thinking that maybe they've got their eyes on other places - like here - and are preemptively attempting to ban people they think will be problems?
Or at least pouncing on them ASAP once they post something even a little bit critical?
Maybe?
Thought crimes!
Anyway, it is good to see WithintheDungeon still here fighting the fight - I was afraid he was gone for good, but I now I guess that's only in reference to the Robotech thread...
I think it was recently on the RRT comments page, don't remember for sure, but there was something from a guy going on about how rough and mean all the haterzzzz are on the PB forums.
Pretty sure it was one of their lobotomized White Knights, too. So I don't think it was sarcasm.
Don't be ridiculous. Dingleberries on something as fearsome sounding as a Swordfist? Bah, maybe for a novice freelancer but master wordsmith and genre redefiner Kevin would come up with something much more imaginative like turdthorns or pooppiercers. And, yes, they'd undoubtedly be MDC.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JohnHwangDD wrote: It's amusing that they didn't even get a BGG page and it's so far into the campaign. No BGG promo either. Totally unprepared.
It's almost as if most of the same people involved got massively financially rewarded for being completely unprepared for the realities of a miniatures kickstarter in the past and suffered no direct consequences as a result of almost 3 years of no tangible progress by the only metric that matters (products brought to market)
Alpharius wrote: I'm thinking that maybe they've got their eyes on other places - like here - and are preemptively attempting to ban people they think will be problems?
Or at least pouncing on them ASAP once they post something even a little bit critical?
Maybe?
Thought crimes!
Anyway, it is good to see WithintheDungeon still here fighting the fight - I was afraid he was gone for good, but I now I guess that's only in reference to the Robotech thread...
You we're right in the first place, and I now believe I was wrong to suspect members of this board for spamming my email. Though nobody batted and eye about it, I apologize. Nonetheless... The thing is yesterday while in the comments I got pretty upset when a poster referenced something personal about the creator as well, so consider me conflicted, so I do not take my journey over there lightly...
In the end I have to set aside my wimpy tendencies and do what (I view) as right.
WithintheDungeon wrote: My point in the thread was not to troll. Unless asking legit questions as to project is considered as such... I've kept the questions themselves strictly about the project itself. I'm aware that's folks might view it as a troll if the premise is that I'm not backing the Kickstarter no matter what is said. Edit: Not to mention am I to be faulted for the creator's inability to answer these legit questions... I think not. If my crime is knowing ahead that the creator won't or most likely can't answer the questions, then I can live with that.
But given the history of the companies involved, what is my crime exactly...? Since we are literally dealing with people that will do or say anything for the $ and use whoever is foolish enough to back them, in order to fund their own incompetent productions...
What I'm doing is a service, to those who my opinion which likely be just as scammed as the backers of RRT.
(where is the inset applause button)-
Thank you. If they can't be bothered to up sell you on the product in spite of the possible snags, then they should not be doing this.
KS is a basic idea of business, selling the dream.
Alpharius wrote: I'm thinking that maybe they've got their eyes on other places - like here - and are preemptively attempting to ban people they think will be problems?
Or at least pouncing on them ASAP once they post something even a little bit critical?
Maybe?
Thought crimes!
Anyway, it is good to see WithintheDungeon still here fighting the fight - I was afraid he was gone for good, but I now I guess that's only in reference to the Robotech thread...
You we're right in the first place, and I now believe I was wrong to suspect members of this board for spamming my email. Though nobody batted and eye about it, I apologize. Nonetheless... The thing is yesterday while in the comments I got pretty upset when a poster referenced something personal about the creator as well, so consider me conflicted, so I do not take my journey over there lightly...
In the end I have to set aside my wimpy tendencies and do what (I view) as right.
Thank you for welcoming me back!
if you are referring to Carmen's attempted Suicide that was no longer personal or private when Kevin blasted it on the open internet, furthermore it is a very serious factor to consider when backing a project by the same person since such an action can effect the outcome of said project.
also on a side note you have to remember that Carmen and his collaborators and anyone with access to that project controls, have access to your e-mail and address and other personal information, thankfully not your credit card info.
. Also juicers, dog boys and any superheroes through the rifts.
.
years.
Heck, I didn't even 
Did you say $1,000.00??? Kevin wants to be your friend 
