JNAProductions wrote: The issue isn't so much that Inceptors will beat Rubrics in a shoot out. In fact, assuming Rubrics start in rapid fire range, they win. (With few survivors, but hey.)
The issue is Inceptors are VASTLY superior at taking out pretty much anything else. MEQs, TEQs, GEQs, Dreadnoughts, Russes...
Which is completely appropriate. The new iteration of Thousand Sons gets most of its heavy lifting accomplished in the psychic phase. Aside from the usual Seer's Bane sorc, chopping up hapless chumps in CC. The shooting phase is their weakest phase. Everyone reading this thread needs to understand that (especially OP who should know better).
If you're comparing a Battalion to a Spearhead detachment, there's also a difference of +3 to +1 CP. That may be pivotal if you can reroll things like Psychic Tests, which are natural strategems for TS to gravitate towards. You might inflict D6 mortal wounds rather than have a HQ explode and take half a squad with him.
OP is also apparently unaware that Tzaangors and Cultists are also troop choices. It's not "just Rubrics".
ClockworkZion wrote: I need to correct a math error from earlier: Inceotors are 54 points with guns. That means they are more than double the cost of a Rubric with an Inferno Bolter.
Big difference looking at it like points where we get 6 Rubrics vs 3 Inceptors versus power were we,re looking at 6 Rubrics+Sorc+1/2 cost full wargear loadout
Vs 3 Inceptors.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean when your one dude cost as much as two of my dudes, it,s a bit more reasonable for them to be basically twice as good.
Yeah thats fine now find the upgrade that puts the Rubrics even close to on par with Inceptors. Rhinos cant be included since they arent an upgrade. Your options are flamers, icon, and DttFE. Flamers are NOT good in any way. Right now flamers cost 4 ppm which is 8 to 10 points DttFE is going to be marginial as far as i can tell which means the icon is going cost 30 points at a least and double thier ranged capabilities and slightly increase thier durability.
You're not getting it yet: it doesn't matter what those upgrades do, or even if you can legally take them. What matters is you paid anyways for them and that pushes your power rating up. Hell the Sorc by himself was likely 1-1.5 and the upgrades were likely another .5-1PL for a total of 2PL over the cost of basic Rubrics.
So that's my point: the cost of a unit in power for a unit that is paying for upgrades will be weaker than an equivilant unit in power that doesn,t have any options.
So you are comparing a unit that is working in a more optimal range for its targeting as I laid out earlier against a unit that is not in its optimal range.
multi wound weapons are much more effective against primaris per point than against rubrics. More damaging weapons are more effective against primaris per point.
Whereas they are much worse against rubrics per shot. Rubrics will be troops and who knows if troops will have something special.
Honestly I am still not seeing this huge disparity. They have different targets, different strengths, and different weaknesses.
You need Rhinos to run MSU Rubrics. They are one of the squishiest units in the game. If you want to footslog, run a bigger unit and back them up with psychic defense. This is not a balance issue. This is a terrible way to field the unit!
You need Rhinos to run MSU Rubrics. They are one of the squishiest units in the game. If you want to footslog, run a bigger unit and back them up with psychic defense. This is not a balance issue. This is a terrible way to field the unit!
Rhinos cost power and are an external unit to the Rubrics...
You need Rhinos to run MSU Rubrics. They are one of the squishiest units in the game. If you want to footslog, run a bigger unit and back them up with psychic defense. This is not a balance issue. This is a terrible way to field the unit!
Rhinos cost power and are an external unit to the Rubrics...
Fine so you compare two units of interceptors to a unit of 10 rubrics and a rhino......So its almost like you can spend points to mitigate a units weaknesses........who would have thunk it.
Seriously anything in a vacuum is not really going to do it. Honestly I bet once we see the inceptors will have more gun options and their baseline power will be higher instead of the basically exactly 20 points per power it is now.
Anyway,
Lascannon hit kills .55 Primaris inceptors
Lascannon hit kills .5 rubrics - So if rubrics are even half the points of an interceptor then it is much better against lascannons.
Either way we can guess that a sorcerer costs about 40 points more base than a regular rubric marine. Honestly I cant see a rubric being more than 20 points each, probably closer to 18 each.
JNAProductions wrote: Tell me, what exactly do you THINK the banner will do? Because it'd have to outright double the power of Rubrics to make them on par.
And if that's really how power level works... It's crap. Plain and simple.
I don,t know and that wasn't the point. The point was that the 8 power assumes you have it and makes you pay for it. Just like it makes you pay for the Soulreaper you can't use at start.
There are costs bundled into that power that make the scales unbalanced in terms of options. A unit with no options is going to have a lower power because it has not additional costs to factor in.
No because it unlocks at 10 models and that is PL 14 not 8 they are charging you for the reaper cannon in the second set of 5 Rubrics.
Another thing that's likely is that I don't think Smite is the only spell that psyker is going to know. While other spells weren't listed on the previewed datasheet, there is likely to be a faction-wide thing that basically says "All psykers in this faction can pick one of these powers for each Mastery Level they have".
After all, in 7th a Sorcerer can use Biomancy, Pyromancy, and Telepathy, plus they get a bonus spell if they have a Mark.
So that Sorcerer is probably stronger than he looks.
JNAProductions wrote: Tell me, what exactly do you THINK the banner will do? Because it'd have to outright double the power of Rubrics to make them on par.
And if that's really how power level works... It's crap. Plain and simple.
I don,t know and that wasn't the point. The point was that the 8 power assumes you have it and makes you pay for it. Just like it makes you pay for the Soulreaper you can't use at start.
There are costs bundled into that power that make the scales unbalanced in terms of options. A unit with no options is going to have a lower power because it has not additional costs to factor in.
No because it unlocks at 10 models and that is PL 14 not 8 they are charging you for the reaper cannon in the second set of 5 Rubrics.
Go read how they worked out PLs again. If it was at the cost of the upgrade from 5-10 them it'd cost less than 12 to get to 15 models and less than 18 to get to 20 models. The cost is factored into the base unit.
Leth wrote: So you are comparing a unit that is working in a more optimal range for its targeting as I laid out earlier against a unit that is not in its optimal range.
Even in optimal Inceptors are better by a large margin. They are better vs just about every unit except T 10 and T 3 they put out any where from 2x to 4x the bullets at higher S.
Leth wrote: multi wound weapons are much more effective against primaris per point than against rubrics. More damaging weapons are more effective against primaris per point.Whereas they are much worse against rubrics per shot
No they aren't they are about a wash. With Rubrics being slightly better off in the High S are and Inceptors being slightly better off in the low S area. Because the difference in T remains but the Bonus armor is lost
Leth wrote: Rubrics will be troops and who knows if troops will have something special.
They have already said no difference.
Leth wrote: Honestly I am still not seeing this huge disparity. They have different targets, different strengths, and different weaknesses
Because you refuse to look at anything that proves you wrong.
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ross-128 wrote: Another thing that's likely is that I don't think Smite is the only spell that psyker is going to know. While other spells weren't listed on the previewed datasheet, there is likely to be a faction-wide thing that basically says "All psykers in this faction can pick one of these powers for each Mastery Level they have".
After all, in 7th a Sorcerer can use Biomancy, Pyromancy, and Telepathy, plus they get a bonus spell if they have a Mark.
So that Sorcerer is probably stronger than he looks.
The psyker only knows smite it would say otherwise in the data sheet.
Would it though? After all, the Thousand Sons entry in the current codex doesn't say anything about the Sorcerer being able to learn spells at all. You have to go to an entirely separate Sorcerer entry several pages earlier to find out which spells your Sorcerer can learn. GW has quite a habit of doing stuff like that, one that they clearly haven't broken considering how the datasheet doesn't even tell us what Death to the False Emperor does, and the Primaris Marines' datasheets don't tell us what ATSKNF does.
Though if we just decide to run with your preconceived notion that Rubrics are garbage, then we could just have a pity-party olympics instead.
So let's just uncritically accept the idea that Rubrics are hopelessly outclassed. Well, Martel over there insists that Tacticals are hopelessly outclassed compared to Rubrics. Seeing as how they don't have any AP on their boltguns, they don't get +1 saves against small arms, and they don't come with a psyker, I suppose I can see that. Well, earlier in the thread I also "proved" using the same approach you did that Guardsmen are entirely outclassed by Tacticals, which by extension means they are outclassed by Rubrics and Inceptors too.
So the Imperial Guard wins the pity-party olympics. Questioning the results is heresy. Heresy is punishable by death.
You need Rhinos to run MSU Rubrics. They are one of the squishiest units in the game. If you want to footslog, run a bigger unit and back them up with psychic defense. This is not a balance issue. This is a terrible way to field the unit!
Rhinos are not an optional upgrade for the rubrics it will add 2 PL to the whole unit. If that upgrade is not on the data sheet then its not calculated in. Its not unreasonable. By adding the Rhino you would be looming at PL10.
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ross-128 wrote: Would it though? After all, the Thousand Sons entry in the current codex doesn't say anything about the Sorcerer being able to learn spells at all. You have to go to an entirely separate Sorcerer entry several pages earlier to find out which spells your Sorcerer can learn. GW has quite a habit of doing stuff like that, one that they clearly haven't broken considering how the datasheet doesn't even tell us what Death to the False Emperor does, and the Primaris Marines' datasheets don't tell us what ATSKNF does.
Though if we just decide to run with your preconceived notion that Rubrics are garbage, then we could just have a pity-party olympics instead.
So let's just uncritically accept the idea that Rubrics are hopelessly outclassed. Well, Martel over there insists that Tacticals are hopelessly outclassed compared to Rubrics. Seeing as how they don't have any AP on their boltguns, they don't get +1 saves against small arms, and they don't come with a psyker, I suppose I can see that. Well, earlier in the thread I also "proved" using the same approach you did that Guardsmen are entirely outclassed by Tacticals, which by extension means they are outclassed by Rubrics and Inceptors too.
So the Imperial Guard wins the pity-party olympics. Questioning the results is heresy. Heresy is punishable by death.
Yes it would they specifically say if a psyker can cast another spell it will say on the data sheet. Ita actually in the article with the Rubric Datasheet.
JNAProductions wrote: Tell me, what exactly do you THINK the banner will do? Because it'd have to outright double the power of Rubrics to make them on par.
And if that's really how power level works... It's crap. Plain and simple.
It'll probably do rerolling of wounds of some kind or a new version of Soul Blaze. Not too bad for getting units in cover.
So your basically saying that a unit that on on ever runs on its own is sub-optimal compared to a unit that is designed to operate on its own? Also you are comparing a unit that pays more upfront for a unit upgrade that is going to cost less power the more models you add to it. It is cheaper to get a larger unit for rubrics than it is to get more interceptors. Over time their inante durability will win out the more models they add. Same with the per-power damage output goes up with larger units.
You also completely ignore the survivability aspect, even factoring in the increased toughness. Multi wound weapons are going to be quite common. Here the thousand sons will be much more survivable.
So yes, in a vacuum you are correct when we limit the scenarios and limit the discussion to the EXACT base 8 power unit of thousands sons it is worse than an 8 power unit of interceptors.
Congrats, that means nothing unless we are playing a game where we are only using 8 power for our entire list.
You need Rhinos to run MSU Rubrics. They are one of the squishiest units in the game. If you want to footslog, run a bigger unit and back them up with psychic defense. This is not a balance issue. This is a terrible way to field the unit!
Rhinos cost power and are an external unit to the Rubrics...
Fine so you compare two units of interceptors to a unit of 10 rubrics and a rhino......So its almost like you can spend points to mitigate a units weaknesses........who would have thunk it.
Seriously anything in a vacuum is not really going to do it. Honestly I bet once we see the inceptors will have more gun options and their baseline power will be higher instead of the basically exactly 20 points per power it is now.
Anyway,
Lascannon hit kills .55 Primaris inceptors
Lascannon hit kills .5 rubrics - So if rubrics are even half the points of an interceptor then it is much better against lascannons.
Either way we can guess that a sorcerer costs about 40 points more base than a regular rubric marine. Honestly I cant see a rubric being more than 20 points each, probably closer to 18 each.
Fine 36 Heavy Bolter shots later you have a dead rhino lose 1.6 wounds in the explosion. You take out 1 guy and put 1 wound on another guy. You then lose 3.1 more models then the two units charge you overwatch do .3 wounds for over watch Inceptors do .825 wouds so another guy lost. Plus another .6 which means a total of 6 wounds lost. Rubrics have to choose if they are going to stay in combat or fallback. If they fallback they cant shoot. If they stay in cc they do.5 wounds a turn. It dosemt matter what you do because inceptors can fallback and still shoot. So on inceptors turn I fall back and shoot you down to 1 guy. You might kill 1 more guy with psy power charging in and attacking.
How are you getting a dead rhino from 36 heavy bolter shots?
24 hits, 8 wounds, probably a 4+ save after rend. So that's 4 wounds... you think a rhino will only have 4 wounds or will be T5?
And if they are within 18 then the rubrics will be able to advance into rapid fire range.
So no dead rhino, rubrics disembark cannon does one wound, smite does one wound. 8 rubrics fire dealing about 4.74 wounds. That is one dead interceptor squad and that is before even trying to charge.
Also falling back from combat is done in your movement phase so that would be their move getting them up to 10 inches away.
Leth wrote: So your basically saying that a unit that on on ever runs on its own is sub-optimal compared to a unit that is designed to operate on its own? Also you are comparing a unit that pays more upfront for a unit upgrade that is going to cost less power the more models you add to it. It is cheaper to get a larger unit for rubrics than it is to get more interceptors. Over time their inante durability will win out the more models they add. Same with the per-power damage output goes up with larger units.
You also completely ignore the survivability aspect, even factoring in the increased toughness. Multi wound weapons are going to be quite common. Here the thousand sons will be much more survivable.
So yes, in a vacuum you are correct when we limit the scenarios and limit the discussion to the EXACT base 8 power unit of thousands sons it is worse than an 8 power unit of interceptors.
Congrats, that means nothing unless we are playing a game where we are only using 8 power for our entire list.
The numbers have already been gone over there is little difference between the durability of the units. Rubrics lose thier armor bonus to multidamage weapons, while Inceptors retain the benefit of increased T.
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Leth wrote: How are you getting a dead rhino from 36 heavy bolter shots?
24 hits, 8 wounds, probably a 4+ save after rend. So that's 4 wounds... you think a rhino will only have 4 wounds or will be T5?
I think for 40 points yeah it better. You dont get super durability for 40 points you get whata current Rhino has which goes down to 36 heavy bolter shots.
Leth wrote: So your basically saying that a unit that on on ever runs on its own is sub-optimal compared to a unit that is designed to operate on its own? Also you are comparing a unit that pays more upfront for a unit upgrade that is going to cost less power the more models you add to it. It is cheaper to get a larger unit for rubrics than it is to get more interceptors. Over time their inante durability will win out the more models they add. Same with the per-power damage output goes up with larger units.
You also completely ignore the survivability aspect, even factoring in the increased toughness. Multi wound weapons are going to be quite common. Here the thousand sons will be much more survivable.
So yes, in a vacuum you are correct when we limit the scenarios and limit the discussion to the EXACT base 8 power unit of thousands sons it is worse than an 8 power unit of interceptors.
Congrats, that means nothing unless we are playing a game where we are only using 8 power for our entire list.
The numbers have already been gone over there is little difference between the durability of the units. Rubrics lose thier armor bonus to multidamage weapons, while Inceptors retain the benefit of increased T.
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Leth wrote: How are you getting a dead rhino from 36 heavy bolter shots?
24 hits, 8 wounds, probably a 4+ save after rend. So that's 4 wounds... you think a rhino will only have 4 wounds or will be T5?
I think for 40 points yeah it better. You dont get super durability for 40 points you get whata current Rhino has which goes down to 36 heavy bolter shots.
Yeah, except that you are completely ignoring that most multi damage weapons will also have rend scores that will negate the primaries armor but the sons still get a save. Also each thousand son is about 1.16 power. Each interceptor is 2.33. So yes the thousand sons are much more durable against a wide range of weapons than the interceptors. I posted the math earlier against a wide variety of weapon types and just decided to ignore it because you only care about this one unit shooting against this other unit.
As we have seen they have specifically tried to make all vehicles more durable outside of super heavies. So yes I expect them to be more durable now.
Leth wrote: So your basically saying that a unit that on on ever runs on its own is sub-optimal compared to a unit that is designed to operate on its own? Also you are comparing a unit that pays more upfront for a unit upgrade that is going to cost less power the more models you add to it. It is cheaper to get a larger unit for rubrics than it is to get more interceptors. Over time their inante durability will win out the more models they add. Same with the per-power damage output goes up with larger units.
You also completely ignore the survivability aspect, even factoring in the increased toughness. Multi wound weapons are going to be quite common. Here the thousand sons will be much more survivable.
So yes, in a vacuum you are correct when we limit the scenarios and limit the discussion to the EXACT base 8 power unit of thousands sons it is worse than an 8 power unit of interceptors.
Congrats, that means nothing unless we are playing a game where we are only using 8 power for our entire list.
The numbers have already been gone over there is little difference between the durability of the units. Rubrics lose thier armor bonus to multidamage weapons, while Inceptors retain the benefit of increased T.
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Leth wrote: How are you getting a dead rhino from 36 heavy bolter shots?
24 hits, 8 wounds, probably a 4+ save after rend. So that's 4 wounds... you think a rhino will only have 4 wounds or will be T5?
I think for 40 points yeah it better. You dont get super durability for 40 points you get whata current Rhino has which goes down to 36 heavy bolter shots.
Yeah, except that you are completely ignoring that most multi damage weapons will also have rend scores that will negate the primaries armor but the sons still get a save. Also each thousand son is about 1.16 power. Each interceptor is 2.33. So yes the thousand sons are much more durable against a wide range of weapons than the interceptors. I posted the math earlier against a wide variety of weapon types and just decided to ignore it because you only care about this one unit shooting against this other unit.
As we have seen they have specifically tried to make all vehicles more durable outside of super heavies. So yes I expect them to be more durable now.
The rend only makes a difference at -3 rend...not common but cover can help with that. -4 rend is where the noticible difference would be and guess what happens. T ends up cutting that down.
Okay do you think they are going to just up the durability without upping the cost?
Leth wrote: So your basically saying that a unit that on on ever runs on its own is sub-optimal compared to a unit that is designed to operate on its own? Also you are comparing a unit that pays more upfront for a unit upgrade that is going to cost less power the more models you add to it. It is cheaper to get a larger unit for rubrics than it is to get more interceptors. Over time their inante durability will win out the more models they add. Same with the per-power damage output goes up with larger units.
You also completely ignore the survivability aspect, even factoring in the increased toughness. Multi wound weapons are going to be quite common. Here the thousand sons will be much more survivable.
So yes, in a vacuum you are correct when we limit the scenarios and limit the discussion to the EXACT base 8 power unit of thousands sons it is worse than an 8 power unit of interceptors.
Congrats, that means nothing unless we are playing a game where we are only using 8 power for our entire list.
The numbers have already been gone over there is little difference between the durability of the units. Rubrics lose thier armor bonus to multidamage weapons, while Inceptors retain the benefit of increased T.
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Leth wrote: How are you getting a dead rhino from 36 heavy bolter shots?
24 hits, 8 wounds, probably a 4+ save after rend. So that's 4 wounds... you think a rhino will only have 4 wounds or will be T5?
I think for 40 points yeah it better. You dont get super durability for 40 points you get whata current Rhino has which goes down to 36 heavy bolter shots.
Yeah, except that you are completely ignoring that most multi damage weapons will also have rend scores that will negate the primaries armor but the sons still get a save. Also each thousand son is about 1.16 power. Each interceptor is 2.33. So yes the thousand sons are much more durable against a wide range of weapons than the interceptors. I posted the math earlier against a wide variety of weapon types and just decided to ignore it because you only care about this one unit shooting against this other unit.
As we have seen they have specifically tried to make all vehicles more durable outside of super heavies. So yes I expect them to be more durable now.
The rend only makes a difference at -3 rend...not common but cover can help with that. -4 rend is where the noticible difference would be and guess what happens. T ends up cutting that down.
Okay do you think they are going to just up the durability without upping the cost?
]
Yeah except most things that are multi damage and -3 or 4 rend are going to be above str 5. There are plenty that are str 6, and 7. For example all plasma weapons..............so the bonus toughness does not matter in those situations. Also thousand sons most likely have a 4+ invul save considering that is what most tzeetch models get. So it makes a difference at -2 rend. T only matters in this case at str 4, 5, 8, and 9. For everything else they are the same rolls. However rend makes a difference on every model whose armor save is better than a 6+.
Also yes, yes they most likely will keep the cost about the same. They are improving the durability because they were not durable enough for their points.
So a plasma gun is more likely to kill a interceptor than a rubric marine even though the rubric marine costs half as much.
Leth wrote: So your basically saying that a unit that on on ever runs on its own is sub-optimal compared to a unit that is designed to operate on its own? Also you are comparing a unit that pays more upfront for a unit upgrade that is going to cost less power the more models you add to it. It is cheaper to get a larger unit for rubrics than it is to get more interceptors. Over time their inante durability will win out the more models they add. Same with the per-power damage output goes up with larger units.
You also completely ignore the survivability aspect, even factoring in the increased toughness. Multi wound weapons are going to be quite common. Here the thousand sons will be much more survivable.
So yes, in a vacuum you are correct when we limit the scenarios and limit the discussion to the EXACT base 8 power unit of thousands sons it is worse than an 8 power unit of interceptors.
Congrats, that means nothing unless we are playing a game where we are only using 8 power for our entire list.
The numbers have already been gone over there is little difference between the durability of the units. Rubrics lose thier armor bonus to multidamage weapons, while Inceptors retain the benefit of increased T.
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Leth wrote: How are you getting a dead rhino from 36 heavy bolter shots?
24 hits, 8 wounds, probably a 4+ save after rend. So that's 4 wounds... you think a rhino will only have 4 wounds or will be T5?
I think for 40 points yeah it better. You dont get super durability for 40 points you get whata current Rhino has which goes down to 36 heavy bolter shots.
Yeah, except that you are completely ignoring that most multi damage weapons will also have rend scores that will negate the primaries armor but the sons still get a save. Also each thousand son is about 1.16 power. Each interceptor is 2.33. So yes the thousand sons are much more durable against a wide range of weapons than the interceptors. I posted the math earlier against a wide variety of weapon types and just decided to ignore it because you only care about this one unit shooting against this other unit.
As we have seen they have specifically tried to make all vehicles more durable outside of super heavies. So yes I expect them to be more durable now.
The rend only makes a difference at -3 rend...not common but cover can help with that. -4 rend is where the noticible difference would be and guess what happens. T ends up cutting that down.
Okay do you think they are going to just up the durability without upping the cost?
]
Yeah except most things that are multi damage and -3 or 4 rend are going to be above str 5. There are plenty that are str 6, and 7. For example all plasma weapons..............so the bonus toughness does not matter in those situations. Also thousand sons most likely have a 4+ invul save considering that is what most tzeetch models get. So it makes a difference at -2 rend. T only matters in this case at str 4, 5, 8, and 9. For everything else they are the same rolls. However rend makes a difference on every model whose armor save is better than a 6+.
Also yes, yes they most likely will keep the cost about the same. They are improving the durability because they were not durable enough for their points.
So a plasma gun is more likely to kill a interceptor than a rubric marine even though the rubric marine costs half as much.
There is no reason to think Rubrics will have a 4+ save unless the Icon gives it to them. In which case they are still almost worthless from an offensive stand point.
No they will probably increase the points cost at least some Rhinos were dirt cheap, having 10 Rhinos on the board are would be a nightmare to deal with. They want transports to be a more reliable investment.
Fine 1 weapon is better at killing Inceptors there fore Rubrics are vastly more durable in every way.
Rubrics withstand Melta, Plasma and generally anything that would reduce them to a 6+ better because their Invule kicks in at a 5+ while the Inceptors go to a 6+ or worse.
That,s not just one weapon, that,s a whole family of weapons. You know, the same ones people generally used to negate low number saves in the past?
I wonder if the Land Raider is improved enough to be viable.
Delivering a bunch of Warpflamer Rubrics into close range and then getting stuck into CC at full strength is probably better than plinking away with their bolters.
Yoyoyo wrote: Also anything that's Rending (-4 on a roll of 6).
Rubrics might get some added durability from Stratagems or HQ bonuses, but they're already on a 4+ invul as long as "All is Dust" is active.
All is dust is armor not invul
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Yoyoyo wrote: I wonder if the Land Raider is improved enough to be viable.
Delivering a bunch of Warpflamer Rubrics into close range and then getting stuck into CC at full strength is probably better than plinking away with their bolters.
With twinlinked doubling shots it should be and it will probably have a higher number of wounds then a Leman Russ
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ClockworkZion wrote: Rubrics withstand Melta, Plasma and generally anything that would reduce them to a 6+ better because their Invule kicks in at a 5+ while the Inceptors go to a 6+ or worse.
That,s not just one weapon, that,s a whole family of weapons. You know, the same ones people generally used to negate low number saves in the past?
Yes and those are going to be at a 1 to 5 ratio to the weapons that they have an advantage on. S4 and S5 which are the most common S in the game by far.
They are better at killing just about everything except T10+ not at all ranges TS are better in the 19-24 bracket although you wouldn't be able to tell since they almost never kill anything. Because Earth127's math is fething abysmal he got 1 MEQ killed by a unit shooting 18 S 5 AP -1 shots as best I can tell he made up numbers cause he thinks I did the same or has no idea what he is doing.
That Inceptors have 2x the shooting and speed, have better deployment options, for the same or near the same price. No one is saying all Rubrics and all Inceptors.
Player decisions (judgement and decision making) would be based on skill and knowledge of the player which is supposed to be the determining factor. Scenario goal can be swapped between armies so you can't point to that as a balance tool. Opponent's force is supposed to be balanced via metrics (PL and points). Anything other then skill and knowledge should be minimized. The fact that income plays a role in how well your army will preform is by far one of the most annoying part of the balance.
Firstly, could you please stop demanding your opponents refrain from ad hominem attacks while you're doing the same thing? You're shifting goalposts in tone, and the point that some are making is that you've also shifted goalposts in content.
Let's try this again:
Your assertion seems to be that a PL8 unit must be equivalent, or at least close, to every other PL8 unit, but that's patently not the nature of 'balanced' competitive miniatures gaming. If I bring 8PL of Fire Dragons and the other guy happens to be running a horde of conscripts, that's not a strike on Fire Dragons, and if the other guy happened to bring a list of Twin-Flamer Crisis suits, it's not a strike on Crisis Suits that Fire Dragons are going to chew them up and spit them out. Note that I use these examples mainy because they're pretty simple one-dimensional archetypes - specialist AT, cheap bodycount, and specialist crowd-control.
So yeah, again, it may well be true that a PL8 Inceptor squad is going to maul a PL8 Ksons squad, but that'll only happen half the time since the other half of the time the KSons will dictate engagement on this featureless plain you're playing on (because table layout, turn order, deployment strategies, LOS, etc. etc. are all "context") since you have to half your units start on-table, and of the 50% of your Inceptors that deep strike, only ~42% of the time will they roll an 8+ to engage. But regardless, it doesn't tell us anything of value, because it's trivially true that there are going to be units that trump other units, and part of list-building and on-table play is figuring out how to apply your your rocks to the other chap's scissors and how to stop his scissors from getting your papers.
As to Earth127's maths error - he's made one and he's owned up to it - have you applied a similar principle whereby one mathematical error in your work thusly invalidates every single claim you've made?
You are the very person who said you wanted to keep things simple, which is why there's all this harping on about solely Inceptors and Ksons. Everything else is, in your own OP, "context", and apparently because it's "context" it's not worthy of discussion. But that's just no-true-scotsmanning your way out of critique.
None of that is to say I think GW has necessarily done a great job on both PL and points costs. Heck, I don't really think there's any utility to the Power Level system that isn't just served better by points or by not counting points at all. If I want to aim for balance, I want more granularity, and if I want to just wing it via eyeballing, I can do that myself and try out the scenario a couple of times and adjust it. I also am aware - as no doubt we all are - that GW doesn't exactly have the best track record amongst miniatures gaming rules producers when it comes to balance (not that there's any company that's particularly great at it, but there are ones that have a less bad history).
But the assertion that Inceptors are better at deleting models isn't a particularly insightful statement, especially when you've repeatedly dug in your heels over the idea that you're the final arbiter in terms of what contextual information is to be taken into account. Unit deletion isn't the sole-and-only measure of utility a game piece has, and in this specific case you've set up an ideal scenario for the Inceptors, and repeatedly insisted on pretending that you haven't stacked the question to pre-determine your outcome (which, to reiterate, doesn't really carry much weight, since different units are, well, different).
Fine 1 weapon is better at killing Inceptors there fore Rubrics are vastly more durable in every way.
Alright then you want to dance this dance, lets dance. First is wounds rubrics take from one hit of a weapon with that profile, second is wounds interceptors take. Not controlling for points at all.
Str 3 - 1 damage
-0 .06 to .11
-1 .11 to .167
-2 .167 to .222
-3 .167 to .278
-4 .167 to .333
Yeah, thousand sons are more durable against almost every stat weapon that is not str 4. However these calculations are just amount of damage in wounds they can expect to take, this does not factor in power or points at all. Once you factor in that the interceptor costs twice as much as a rubric marine there is no weapon that is better against marines than rubrics. So yea, they are WAY MORE DURABLE than the interceptors.
You need Rhinos to run MSU Rubrics. They are one of the squishiest units in the game. If you want to footslog, run a bigger unit and back them up with psychic defense. This is not a balance issue. This is a terrible way to field the unit!
Rhinos cost power and are an external unit to the Rubrics...
And somebody still believes you can look at one unit in vacuum without others?
Tell you what. You show tournament that will have 8 power points/1 unit max armies with preset deployment/terrain. Then you can look at one unit vs one unit in vacuum.
There I fixed it for you, Hellblasters are PL 10 you need to take the points cost and divide by 20 and see how close you get to the power level to see how accurate it is. Even if you dont you have 20 and 21 as a variance. Still pretty fething solid.
another thing to consider is unit synergies, we've gotten a look at most of the Primaris armory, we know generally how Primaris Marines are gonna synergize, we know that Intercessor squads are going to be their basic troops (although we have no clue how they're handling transports, if at all) we know hellblaster squads will be their ranged heavy support (and, BTW, be capable of dropping a rubric squad in a turn.) we know inceptor squads will be their fast attack unit, unit that'll proably be their best anti swarn option. we know the captain will allow re-rolls on hellblasters (and we know how that'll synergize to be worth more then the sum of it's parts) etc. we don';t have a complete picture, but we have a pretty good one.
regarding 1k Sons,
we have Rubric Marines, and that is it. we don't know how Tzaangors will work, (incidently, taking a guess, they're gonna be my priority target for inceptor squads, rubric Marines I'll use my hellblasters to clear) we dunno how Scaarab occult will work, beyond what little we know about terminators, we certainly don;'t know how a exaulted sorcerer will synergize with the list.
and if you think synergism isn't important, look at pretty much all the death stars we have today, death stars in 7th are all about creating game breaking synergies. no reason to assume those won't make or break a list, more then even the individual units will in 8th.
Fine 1 weapon is better at killing Inceptors there fore Rubrics are vastly more durable in every way.
Alright then you want to dance this dance, lets dance. First is wounds rubrics take from one hit of a weapon with that profile, second is wounds interceptors take. Not controlling for points at all.
Str 3 - 1 damage -0 .06 to .11 -1 .11 to .167 -2 .167 to .222 -3 .167 to .278 -4 .167 to .333
Yeah, thousand sons are more durable against almost every stat weapon that is not str 4. However these calculations are just amount of damage in wounds they can expect to take, this does not factor in power or points at all. Once you factor in that the interceptor costs twice as much as a rubric marine there is no weapon that is better against marines than rubrics. So yea, they are WAY MORE DURABLE than the interceptors.
Thats amazing Str 3 multi damage is the exact same wound rate as Str 6/7 wound rate think maybe your math is off? And when your done fixing that figure out how many shots are required to remove 5 wounds from Rubrics and 6 wounds for Inceptors. Because that 1 wound can make one hell of a differwnce as you will find out.
There I fixed it for you, Hellblasters are PL 10 you need to take the points cost and divide by 20 and see how close you get to the power level to see how accurate it is. Even if you dont you have 20 and 21 as a variance. Still pretty fething solid.
Fine 1 weapon is better at killing Inceptors there fore Rubrics are vastly more durable in every way.
Alright then you want to dance this dance, lets dance. First is wounds rubrics take from one hit of a weapon with that profile, second is wounds interceptors take. Not controlling for points at all.
Str 3 - 1 damage -0 .06 to .11 -1 .11 to .167 -2 .167 to .222 -3 .167 to .278 -4 .167 to .333
Yeah, thousand sons are more durable against almost every stat weapon that is not str 4. However these calculations are just amount of damage in wounds they can expect to take, this does not factor in power or points at all. Once you factor in that the interceptor costs twice as much as a rubric marine there is no weapon that is better against marines than rubrics. So yea, they are WAY MORE DURABLE than the interceptors.
Thats amazing Str 3 multi damage is the exact same wound rate as Str 6/7 wound rate think maybe your math is off? And when your done fixing that figure out how many shots are required to remove 5 wounds from Rubrics and 6 wounds for Inceptors. Because that 1 wound can make one hell of a differwnce as you will find out.
There I fixed it for you, Hellblasters are PL 10 you need to take the points cost and divide by 20 and see how close you get to the power level to see how accurate it is. Even if you dont you have 20 and 21 as a variance. Still pretty fething solid.
There I fixed it for you, Hellblasters are PL 10 you need to take the points cost and divide by 20 and see how close you get to the power level to see how accurate it is. Even if you dont you have 20 and 21 as a variance. Still pretty fething solid.
There I fixed it for you, Hellblasters are PL 10 you need to take the points cost and divide by 20 and see how close you get to the power level to see how accurate it is. Even if you dont you have 20 and 21 as a variance. Still pretty fething solid.
There I fixed it for you, Hellblasters are PL 10 you need to take the points cost and divide by 20 and see how close you get to the power level to see how accurate it is. Even if you dont you have 20 and 21 as a variance. Still pretty fething solid.
May I point you to the hellblaster profile? or do you need a direct image?
Spoiler:
[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]
Look at the power level icon its off center. Thats fake.
Just so you're aware... that's the official image from the Warhammer Community website.
Fake indeed...
Oh this is going to be good lol
Yea, I literally smashed my head to the desk over this.
Apparently official publications are fake these days.
EDIT: Oh, BTW, we got a new leak about chaos, some datasheets and the point costs of all existing units (without wargear costs)
An Aspiring Sorcerer costs 30, a Rubric costs 18 (!!!!) So yea, a squad of a sorcerer plus 4 rubrics is 102 points. Possibly more due to wargear actually costing points (as the price indicates wargear not included), but the lowball potential of rubrics is THAT cheap. honestly, if the base gear for them DOESNT cost points, its rather OP even.
A plauge marine is base 21, for comparison. Abbadon-we got full rules (well, except anything triggers off keywords, and still no conformation about DttFE) at 253 points, linked to not bloat the place http://i.imgur.com/rg74NsYg.jpg
1k sons Marines are 18 points a marine, with a aspiring sorc at 30 points, making a basic bare bones 1k sons unit 102 points.
making an inceptor squad 15 points more then a 1k sons squad.
weather or not thats priced right is debatable (I'd say it's about right, inceptor squads are by mathhammer not quite as good, but nearly so) but now we have a points cost
Dude, do you math?
Inceptor squads are 159 points (53 each), they are 57 points over a rubric squad, assuming rubric base gear costs no points (not assured)
Now, if that IS the final cost for "base rubrics", we will see three rubric squads per two inceptor squads, and the 1ksons will have some spare change.
Now, we haven't seen what powers TS has yet, but seeing the Dark Hereticus spells-the rubrics may not be as slow as you think. they may potentially be VERY fast if they got access to that list.
Given that the page before it says something about tzeentch-it very well may be one of the TS lists (because they just might apply to several lists, one for being heretic astrades, one for tzeentch and one for TS). if so, may the emperor have mercy on your soul, for the TS shall not.
BoomWolf wrote: Dude, do you math?
Inceptor squads are 159 points (53 each), they are 57 points over a rubric squad, assuming rubric base gear costs no points (not assured)
Now, if that IS the final cost for "base rubrics", we will see three rubric squads per two inceptor squads, and the 1ksons will have some spare change.
Now, we haven't seen what powers TS has yet, but seeing the Dark Hereticus spells-the rubrics may not be as slow as you think. they may potentially be VERY fast if they got access to that list.
Given that the page before it says something about tzeentch-it very well may be one of the TS lists (because they just might apply to several lists, one for being heretic astrades, one for tzeentch and one for TS). if so, may the emperor have mercy on your soul, for the TS shall not.
I forgot the assault bolters actually, but yeah, that only makes it even more clear that the OP can now consider his concerns put to rest.
But also brand new rules. we cannot assume he is just as powerful, for he may not be.
I've noticed that as a general rule, infantry got a bit cheaper, light vehicles (predators rhinos that sort of thing) seem to have gotten a price bump) could GW be trying to shift the focus onto infantry a bit?
But also brand new rules. we cannot assume he is just as powerful, for he may not be.
I've noticed that as a general rule, infantry got a bit cheaper, light vehicles (predators rhinos that sort of thing) seem to have gotten a price bump) could GW be trying to shift the focus onto infantry a bit?
Don't think so, I think its a shift in thematics.
Infantry are more numerous, while vehicles are fewer, but more meaningful.
You need Rhinos to run MSU Rubrics. They are one of the squishiest units in the game. If you want to footslog, run a bigger unit and back them up with psychic defense. This is not a balance issue. This is a terrible way to field the unit!
Rhinos cost power and are an external unit to the Rubrics...
And somebody still believes you can look at one unit in vacuum without others?
Tell you what. You show tournament that will have 8 power points/1 unit max armies with preset deployment/terrain. Then you can look at one unit vs one unit in vacuum.
Please don't put words into my mouth. I was just pointing out that adding extra PL does nothing to stop this whole silly thread from going round and round about how the new guys are the new OP despite proof that it's not an equivilant comparison between the units due to extra factors pushing the power level of Rubrics up while the Inceptors have no options to be added in to push their Power Level up.
That said, we can at least compare base stts and durability more fairly now.
I'm imagining that the Bolters will be the standard loadout and Flamers will cost extra like last time. So that, along with the Soul Reaper, are what we need prices on.
Thats amazing Str 3 multi damage is the exact same wound rate as Str 6/7 wound rate think maybe your math is off? And when your done fixing that figure out how many shots are required to remove 5 wounds from Rubrics and 6 wounds for Inceptors. Because that 1 wound can make one hell of a differwnce as you will find out.
Yeah, because multi wound negates the improved wound rate. I dont see you saying where it is right or wrong. I did mess up the str 5 and 6 multi wound but the rest should be solid
I swear for someone who doesnt want to add context you seem to be moving those goalpost.
ross-128 wrote: They're 18 points a model, you say? Well I sure hope somebody picks up that phone...
18ppm with no wargear. Likely aout 20-22 with an Inferno Bolter.
And maybe it,s too much DBZ Abridged but I feel like calling you Cooler all of a sudden....
They always have an inferno bolter......
BUT I fething CALLLEDD IT
Go look at the points costs list again. For anyone who is not a named special character it is given "without wargear". Which means that they could be more expensive once given a gun.
No idea, you can't see the ppm cost for Inceptors. Their guns are 7pts each though.
I don't think the PL are drastically off from the points value. OP just doesn't understand the Rubrics aren't the kind of models you want to soak fire from an alpha strike unit like Inceptors.
It's a silly thread. Put the Rubrics in a Rhino already.
ross-128 wrote: They're 18 points a model, you say? Well I sure hope somebody picks up that phone...
18ppm with no wargear. Likely aout 20-22 with an Inferno Bolter.
And maybe it,s too much DBZ Abridged but I feel like calling you Cooler all of a sudden....
They always have an inferno bolter......
BUT I fething CALLLEDD IT
Go look at the points costs list again. For anyone who is not a named special character it is given "without wargear". Which means that they could be more expensive once given a gun.
Yeah no......Upgrades cost things. This is default wargear for the unit. Look at their sheet.
Yoyoyo wrote: No idea, you can't see the ppm cost for Inceptors. Their guns are 7pts each though.
I don't think the PL are drastically off from the points value. OP just doesn't understand the Rubrics aren't the kind of models you want to soak fire from an alpha strike unit like Inceptors.
It's a silly thread. Put the Rubrics in a Rhino already.
Either it is 39 ppm with basic wargear, or 53 ppm with two assault bolters. Either way, Inceptors cost twice as much as Rubric Marines.
For comparison, Hellblasters are 23ppm but their guns cost 17ppm.
By that logic Inceptors will cost 39 points plus whatever their weapons cost, no?
Indeed they are. Why else would I be pointing out that they're 53 points fully equipped?
Cost of the model is without wargear or options.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yoyoyo wrote: No idea, you can't see the ppm cost for Inceptors. Their guns are 7pts each though.
I don't think the PL are drastically off from the points value. OP just doesn't understand the Rubrics aren't the kind of models you want to soak fire from an alpha strike unit like Inceptors.
It's a silly thread. Put the Rubrics in a Rhino already.
Rhinos are at least 4PL now... (70 points with nothing on it).
Rubrics are better fielded in larger sizes at PL14 since you get the soulcannon and more units benefit from the Icon. They're better with a transport, nobody judges Meltavets without Chimeras. Some things justify the extra cost easily.
Inceptors have pre-existing mobility and a capped squad size. There's not really a suboptimal build. Not something OP mentioned but then again, you either focus on problems or you focus on solutions.
Can we say Inceptors have an advantage at PL8? Sure. That wouldn't produce nearly as hysterical of a thread though.
For comparison, Hellblasters are 23ppm but their guns cost 17ppm.
By that logic Inceptors will cost 39 points plus whatever their weapons cost, no?
Indeed they are. Why else would I be pointing out that they're 53 points fully equipped?
Cost of the model is without wargear or options.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yoyoyo wrote: No idea, you can't see the ppm cost for Inceptors. Their guns are 7pts each though.
I don't think the PL are drastically off from the points value. OP just doesn't understand the Rubrics aren't the kind of models you want to soak fire from an alpha strike unit like Inceptors.
It's a silly thread. Put the Rubrics in a Rhino already.
Rhinos are at least 4PL now... (70 points with nothing on it).
Except we have no idea what the default options are for interceptors. I am pretty sure that they will have more options than just heavy bolters in their full kit. The prices are with their base wargear, some models have base wargear some dont. The power level in the starter set was set because they mostly have fixed gear so they pointed it at 20 per power.
ross-128 wrote: They're 18 points a model, you say? Well I sure hope somebody picks up that phone...
18ppm with no wargear. Likely aout 20-22 with an Inferno Bolter.
And maybe it,s too much DBZ Abridged but I feel like calling you Cooler all of a sudden....
They always have an inferno bolter......
BUT I fething CALLLEDD IT
Go look at the points costs list again. For anyone who is not a named special character it is given "without wargear". Which means that they could be more expensive once given a gun.
Yeah no......Upgrades cost things. This is default wargear for the unit. Look at their sheet.
Then why are Assault Bolters (the Inceptor's gun) 7 points each?
Not all basic weapons will be free. Having a cost for a model with now gear makes exchanging gear easier, instead of adding points for their gear you lose, you just add points for the gear the model actually has on it after the exchange,
Pretty moot excercise at this point, but how bout we compare MEQ/TEQ etc with rough maths appropriate to the rough estimate that power levels are.
By that I mean not counting .3 wounds and such as that makes no sense for dice. .3 wounds means that more often than not, you won't cause a single wound as dice only have full integers, ie on average that's 0 wounds caused.
So basically rounding to the nearest integer instead before and after re-rolls.
Also noting that the psyker is on average going to succeed his test more often than not, which means he deals 1 wound that goes through saves and wounds automatically. So we're adding +1 to rubric wounds from smite.
Also let's not pretend that it's impossible to get into rapid fire range. That has never been a problem in 7th and if you can get into rapid fire range, you can get into flamer range due to how assault weapons work now.
With that we get the following (rapid fire/flamer range for both, that also means the sorc gets to fire bolt pistol/warpflame pistol. Power levels are assuming such after all)
(shots/hits/wounds/after saves)
Rubrics (bolters) vs inceptors vs Rubrics(flamer) (vs each other)
9/6/2/2 vs 18/12/8/3 vs 15/15/5/4
Same vs MEQ 9/6/3/3 vs 18/12/8/3/4 vs 15/15/8/6
TEQ 9/6/3/2 vs 18/12/8/3 vs 15/15/8/5
4+ save assuming Toughness 3 (same for the following)
9/6/4/4 vs 18/12/8/5 vs 15/15/10/9
5+
9/6/4/5 vs 18/12/8/7 vs 15/15/10/11
6+
9/6/4/6 vs 18/12/8/8 vs 15/15/10/13
So against common infantry models, Rubrics are always worse than inceptors , but not by much.
In assaults, they have 7 attacks for inceptors and 6 for the rubrics, but the sorc has a better weapon so they're roughly equal there too unless you go up against multi wound where the sorc will deal two wounds on average (1 wound /2 damage).
Flamers on the other hand are amazing and outperform inceptors due to auto hitting and better ap while generating about as many attacks due to rubrics having more models.
So with flamers they beat inceptors, but it's much harder for rubrics to get into flamer range thna it is for interceptors to stay withing 18.
Bolters are worse, especially past 18 inch where you can't add smite, but they're also likely to be much cheaper and are still relatively close.
All in all they are both have pretty similar damage outputs, it's just that rubrics are a bit harder to use/risky, but that's were army synergy matters.
Also about their 4+ invulnerable? They've had that for several editions now, if anything you should expect them to have it)
Pretty sure you do have to pay for your default gear, if said gear does have a cost.
However, considering bolt rifles are 0 points, I suspect that the Rubrics' bolters will only be 1 or 2 points at most. After all, it's just a bolter with AP -2, bolt rifles are a bolter with AP -1 and 6" of extra range. Therefore, I can expect that they will be similar in cost.
Assault bolters are so expensive because it's basically a heavy bolter, so of course its cost is similar to a heavy bolter.
There is a decent chance that inferno bolt rifles end up costing zero. Bolt rifles have -1 ap but shoot further. That's not so terribly different. Even an auto bolt rifle which I presume is better than a bolt rifle still costs nothing.
It's not like anybody else gets to use them. (probably)
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Yoyoyo wrote: There's a psychic power that will give Rubrics an extra 5" move in the psychic phase. Probably helpful to get warpflamers up in a unit's face.
So again, synergy. Still lots of missing elements in this discussion.
More actually if you want to use flamers. It's not a move, they move as though it was another movement PHASE. Meaning they get to advance too, so 2 moves an 2 advances for an average 16 inch move + flamer range
Roknar wrote: There is a decent chance that inferno bolt rifles end up costing zero. Bolt rifles have -1 ap but shoot further. That's not so terribly different. Even an auto bolt rifle which I presume is better than a bolt rifle still costs nothing.
It's not impossible but I would like to raise the following point: PL is the cost of something plus basically half the cost of a model's upgrades. Seeing as the PL for a Rubric works out to 24 points, that means that half the cost of their flamer would be 6 points if we assume the bolter is free. So 12 points per Inferno flamer.
Why do people keep forgetting that Thousand Sons are a army focusing around psychic force multipliers? If they dominated the shooting phase unsupported, they'd be straight broken.
@Zion, we will get leaks sooner or later. It'll be resolved in time. But leaving a unit in the lurch to be ambushed by an alpha striker? This is a terrible choice in any edition. No speculation necessary.
Roknar wrote: There is a decent chance that inferno bolt rifles end up costing zero. Bolt rifles have -1 ap but shoot further. That's not so terribly different. Even an auto bolt rifle which I presume is better than a bolt rifle still costs nothing.
It's not impossible but I would like to raise the following point: PL is the cost of something plus basically half the cost of a model's upgrades. Seeing as the PL for a Rubric works out to 24 points, that means that half the cost of their flamer would be 6 points if we assume the bolter is free. So 12 points per Inferno flamer.
That seems off to me.
Well there is still the icon and cannon to account for. Who knows, they might overcompensate for soulblaze by making the icon crazy good and crazy expensive.
But yea, I don't expect their guns to cost more than 2, which is still pretty good.
Yea, I could see Rubrics having a 2+ most of the time, but never worse than 50% chance at saving. That's pretty much the equivalent of cataphractii terminator armour.
ross-128 wrote: They're 18 points a model, you say? Well I sure hope somebody picks up that phone...
18ppm with no wargear. Likely aout 20-22 with an Inferno Bolter.
And maybe it,s too much DBZ Abridged but I feel like calling you Cooler all of a sudden....
They always have an inferno bolter......
BUT I fething CALLLEDD IT
Go look at the points costs list again. For anyone who is not a named special character it is given "without wargear". Which means that they could be more expensive once given a gun.
Yeah no......Upgrades cost things. This is default wargear for the unit. Look at their sheet.
Then why are Assault Bolters (the Inceptor's gun) 7 points each?
Not all basic weapons will be free. Having a cost for a model with now gear makes exchanging gear easier, instead of adding points for their gear you lose, you just add points for the gear the model actually has on it after the exchange,
I think they're future proofing, which is awesome. This way if some unit is super busted because of their baseline equipment, like warp spiders they can adjust it without needing to nuke the whole unit AND it lets them give more power to standard wargear.
Yoyoyo wrote: It's 5+ invul against multiwound since they will lose the bonus.
Still, 2+/4++ is more than decent for a MEQ unit against everything else.
Oh, you're right. I thought the bonus for only for armour saves but it's for their invuln too. I though they would get their 4+ invuln from somewhere else we didn't know yet.
Still pretty good. If you're "wasting" multi damage weapons on Rubrics, that's multi damage weapons not firing into actual multi wound units like the prince.
I suppose it depends on how much those bolters/icon cost if it's warranted. Warptiming a unit of flamer rubrics could make it a tough call for your opponent.
Hmm, that's interesting. I wonder which version is the more recent. It doesn't seem likely that Space Marines and Primaris Space Marines would pay different points for the same model, so one of those leaks must be out of date. Though it might be a good idea to put that over in the Space Marine thread.
I'm pretty sure that's because the model price doesn't include weapons. The Razorback has less transport capacity, so its base hull is cheaper. But then you put a 25 point lascannon on it, and it's not so cheap anymore.
49 points for a Predator Autocannon too, that's interesting. So a basic Predator is 151 points, but instead of a standard autocannon it gets one that fires d3 blasts?
ross-128 wrote: Hmm, that's interesting. I wonder which version is the more recent. It doesn't seem likely that Space Marines and Primaris Space Marines would pay different points for the same model, so one of those leaks must be out of date. Though it might be a good idea to put that over in the Space Marine thread.
These are from the retail version of the books, so are most likely the correct ones.
ross-128 wrote: I'm pretty sure that's because the model price doesn't include weapons. The Razorback has less transport capacity, so its base hull is cheaper. But then you put a 25 point lascannon on it, and it's not so cheap anymore.
49 points for a Predator Autocannon too, that's interesting. So a basic Predator is 151 points, but instead of a standard autocannon it gets one that fires d3 blasts?
Probably true, I keep forgetting that points start off with no weapon choices at all.
Something worth mentioning, the rule book leaks have inceptors going up to 45 ppm from 39, and assault bolter for 7 to 15. Which means a point increase of 159 points to 225, a 42% increase.
Depending on which leak is more accurate, it's entirely possible inceptors have gotten a (deserved) point and power hike at some point.
Apparently HQ can provide buffs strong enough to double a models effectiveness
Except of course it wasn't CSM that are getting that (at least as what we know for now, but unlikely)
Rowboat Gullible will grant Re-roll all hits and wounds to allies near him.
Well, to be fair, he is a Primarch, and one of the more tactically inclined as well. Given that's he's a LoW, it's not surprising. Also, IIRC, its only to Ultramarines keyword models.
Abbadon at least does half of that, by letting Black Legion guys re-roll to hit so its not like CSM are completely in the dumps.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
The psyker only knows smite it would say otherwise in the data sheet.
Not necessarily. The new pysker system seems a direct port from Age of Sigmar's magic system and over there power generation rules are tied into the army specific discipline rules while those presented on the warscroll/datasheet are the powers unique to the unit and the basic ones that all wizards know. If the faction lacks its own disciplines then they only get the powers listed in the unit entry, but we know Chaos has their own from one of the leaks so odds are good that the Aspiring Sorcerer will know at least 1 extra power besides Smite (say Warptime for instance, assuming Dark Hereticus is a generic list any Chaos psyker can pull from).
Sorcerers, Exalted Sorcerers, Ahriman and Magnus will undoubtedly all confer some nice bonuses.
In 7th there were a lot of faction bonuses to improve psychic powers (mitigate perils, harness on a 3+, ignore LOS) and to improve durability (reroll failed saves, improve invul to 3++, increased toughness).
There were relatively minor offensive buffs (Tzaangors advance + charge, reroll misses on 1's, Icon of Flame).
Rubrics aren't independent operators the way Inceptors are so I'm sure we'll see some pretty decent cooperation between them and their HQs.
Apparently HQ can provide buffs strong enough to double a models effectiveness
Except of course it wasn't CSM that are getting that (at least as what we know for now, but unlikely)
Rowboat Gullible will grant Re-roll all hits and wounds to allies near him.
this isn't exactly new, Gulliman was always a army buffer, wheras Abbaddon was always simply an amazing beatstick. I suspect that Fabius Bile will be the choice for buffing CSM units.
Cryonicleech wrote: The sad thing is, seeing some of the disciplines CSM get doesn't inspire much hope in the Sorcerer having access to better powers than smite.
Thousand Sons had some very nice units, relics, and formations in 7th. The Rehati formation wasn't fluffy but it was still top table. Ahriman could solo an Imperial Knight with a decent power on Heretech. Exalted Sorc with Seer's Bane was one of the better CC options in the game. They had some great new psychic powers on the Tzeentch CSM table, only marred by an unreliable Primaris which couldn't compete with psychic shriek. War Cabal with rr1s could outlast Battle Company. They were solid, just not broken.
The Aspiring Sorcerer has always been the weakest link (driving up the squad cost while being unreliable). Rubrics are just MEQ. Tzaangors are Cultist equivalent. But the HQs were superstars and the Scarab Occult did very well with a bonus or two. There were much, much worse armies in 7th. My biggest disappointment is that we lose the cool relics and expanded psychic discipline. But hey it was fun while it lasted.
Yoyoyo wrote: OP did we finally figure out if they get a 4+ invul yet?
We're only 12 pages in after all.
I'm leaning towards yes but I'm not sure now with all the contradicting stuff that's coming out. If anything it definitely warrants a full reevaluation.
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BoomWolf wrote: Yea, I literally smashed my head to the desk over this.
Apparently official publications are fake these days.
EDIT:
Oh, BTW, we got a new leak about chaos, some datasheets and the point costs of all existing units (without wargear costs)
An Aspiring Sorcerer costs 30, a Rubric costs 18 (!!!!)
So yea, a squad of a sorcerer plus 4 rubrics is 102 points.
Possibly more due to wargear actually costing points (as the price indicates wargear not included), but the lowball potential of rubrics is THAT cheap. honestly, if the base gear for them DOESNT cost points, its rather OP even.
A plauge marine is base 21, for comparison.
Abbadon-we got full rules (well, except anything triggers off keywords, and still no conformation about DttFE) at 253 points, linked to not bloat the place
http://i.imgur.com/rg74NsYg.jpg
Seems like oblits totally changed. not sure if I approve of the new form, but its a thing.
You should be smashing your head on your desk because you have 2 different PL for the same unit from the same source. Some is probably going to get yelled at
that's a lot to go through Oblits look crazy (average) S 12 (9) AP -6 (-3) D 6 (3)
one thought about all this is that terminators deep striking will be a LOT more reliable in 8th edition, so I expect we'll see it more often, depending on what powers they get, scarb occult squads could be a great assasination unit.
given their sorc is more powerful, I could see scarab occult aspiring sorcs with a full fledged smite, drop one of those behind a gunline, and maybe wipe a character out nice and quick. that could be a real important thing given it looks like space Marine captians all have the 6 inch "re-roll 1s" bubble, and chapter masters have a 6 inch "re-roll all failed hits" bubble.
ross-128 wrote: Pretty sure you do have to pay for your default gear, if said gear does have a cost.
However, considering bolt rifles are 0 points, I suspect that the Rubrics' bolters will only be 1 or 2 points at most. After all, it's just a bolter with AP -2, bolt rifles are a bolter with AP -1 and 6" of extra range. Therefore, I can expect that they will be similar in cost.
Assault bolters are so expensive because it's basically a heavy bolter, so of course its cost is similar to a heavy bolter.
I would go with 2. Maybe 3 but that seems to be pushing it.
The problem I am seeing is if you add up the top end of war gear costs Rubrics would still fall below the 150 mark for unless the Icon costs 15 - 20 points, or they are adding in 1/2 the cost of a reaper cannon.
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BrianDavion wrote: one thought about all this is that terminators deep striking will be a LOT more reliable in 8th edition, so I expect we'll see it more often, depending on what powers they get, scarb occult squads could be a great assasination unit.
given their sorc is more powerful, I could see scarab occult aspiring sorcs with a full fledged smite, drop one of those behind a gunline, and maybe wipe a character out nice and quick. that could be a real important thing given it looks like space Marine captians all have the 6 inch "re-roll 1s" bubble, and chapter masters have a 6 inch "re-roll all failed hits" bubble.
SOT dont have an aspiring sorcerer. Hes a full fledged Sorc and he will probably have access to a spell outside of smite.
You should be smashing your head on your desk because you have 2 different PL for the same unit from the same source. Some is probably going to get yelled at
that's a lot to go through Oblits look crazy (average) S 12 (9) AP -6 (-3) D 6 (3)
The only thing the power level thing shows is that one of the pictures was not final. They were clearly both GW.
Which also shows that your insistance on relying on power levels to make final judgement was flawed from the get go. ( to no fault of your own since we didn't have both)
Nobody was faulting you for making comparisons, it was the way you implied that nothing major could change from now to release.
And not only did it turn out that power levels might not be what we thought they were, not even the points were/are a sure thing, so clearly you were jumping the gun there a bit.
On Oblits, how are you getting to average strenth 9 or even 12?
The gun I'm seeing S6 +d3 so 8 on average and max 9, same for the rest. Ap-2 average and 2 damage average.
You got yet another leak?
Chances are the Runic Bolter has a cost of 0 points because it is the base weapon for the Rubric Marines. The only way I could see them costing more is if the flamer has a cost of 0 and the bolter becomes the upgrade weapon.
Now for the point cost of a unit, assuming 0 point bolters, is probably 119 for the first 5. That is 18 points per Rubric and costing the Aspiring 17 points for his force weapon, since it is just a Master Crafted weapon under a different name basically (d3 damage instead of strait 2 damage). This makes the math for Rubrics a lot better against the new marines who are 225 (from the blood angels leak if I remember correctly).
It's really hard to say. The sorc is 30 points apparently but we don't know if that is only because of pseudo smite and possibly other powers or also for his force weapon. 30 points for a psyker with force weapon is pretty cheap after all and the icon is still a complete wild card. They may even act as csm force multipliers instead of our characters.
Thousand Sons had some very nice units, relics, and formations in 7th. The Rehati formation wasn't fluffy but it was still top table. Ahriman could solo an Imperial Knight with a decent power on Heretech. Exalted Sorc with Seer's Bane was one of the better CC options in the game. They had some great new psychic powers on the Tzeentch CSM table, only marred by an unreliable Primaris which couldn't compete with psychic shriek. War Cabal with rr1s could outlast Battle Company. They were solid, just not broken.
The Aspiring Sorcerer has always been the weakest link (driving up the squad cost while being unreliable). Rubrics are just MEQ. Tzaangors are Cultist equivalent. But the HQs were superstars and the Scarab Occult did very well with a bonus or two. There were much, much worse armies in 7th. My biggest disappointment is that we lose the cool relics and expanded psychic discipline. But hey it was fun while it lasted.
Rhati was alright if you liked it. Ahriman could very effectively kill himself while removing half the points he costed from the table, there was a reason no one brought him. Chaos Lord with Seer's Bane on a Disk was one of the best CC options, Exalted Sorcs are too expensive to have them going toe to toe with people. Yes the powers were strong, but they were unfun, and required little thought to employ. Everything your pointing at came out 6 months ago in an edition that has been around for 5 years. Your pointing at something that has been around for less then 10% of the play time of the game.
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Roknar wrote: It's really hard to say. The sorc is 30 points apparently but we don't know if that is only because of pseudo smite and possibly other powers or also for his force weapon. 30 points for a psyker with force weapon is pretty cheap after all and the icon is still a complete wild card. They may even act as csm force multipliers instead of our characters.
That's just for him and his smite. Not his Force weapon or his pistol. which will probably cost about 15 points total.
You can look at the Lord of Contagion for an example of a CSM character. They are going to have unique effects logical to the Legion, in his case it gives a Mortal Wound aura to all DG models under his aura.
No idea for the TS characters, but given how GW coordinates with writers and focuses on thematic elements it will probably be greater resiliency or psychic stuff. Ahriman in particular was a Corvidae guy. Some kind of aura benefits related to the Div table would make a lot of sense.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There's a big difference between 10% and "never". So in general, the trend has been in a very positive direction. Otherwise I don't really rate your judgements anymore than the ones you made in this thread. But hey, everyone has the right to their opinion.
Azoqu wrote: Chances are the Runic Bolter has a cost of 0 points because it is the base weapon for the Rubric Marines. The only way I could see them costing more is if the flamer has a cost of 0 and the bolter becomes the upgrade weapon.
Now for the point cost of a unit, assuming 0 point bolters, is probably 119 for the first 5. That is 18 points per Rubric and costing the Aspiring 17 points for his force weapon, since it is just a Master Crafted weapon under a different name basically (d3 damage instead of strait 2 damage). This makes the math for Rubrics a lot better against the new marines who are 225 (from the blood angels leak if I remember correctly).
The Bolter is their base weapon and it has a -2 rend, its going to cost something. If your math is right then Rubrics should be PL 6 while the Inceptors would be PL 11. As best I can tell the base cost of the unit will be 130 20 per rubric, 50 for Sorcerer, 17 for weapon and 3 for pistol, plus 2 flamers about 10 points, puts it at 140 with the icon upgrade being 10 points that would be 150 putting them withing the 7.5 PL threshold. PL 11 seems a bit high for Inceptors.
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Yoyoyo wrote: You can look at the Lord of Contagion for an example of a CSM character. They are going to have unique effects logical to the Legion, in his case it gives a Mortal Wound aura to all DG models under his aura.
No idea for the TS characters, but given how GW coordinates with writers and focuses on thematic elements it will probably be greater resiliency or psychic stuff. Ahriman in particular was a Corvidae guy. Some kind of aura benefits related to the Div table would make a lot of sense.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There's a big difference between 10% and "never". So in general, the trend has been in a very positive direction. Otherwise I don't really rate your judgements anymore than the ones you made in this thread. But hey, everyone has the right to their opinion.
I agree but the way you said it made it sound like the majority of the edition was spent having decent options, when 90% of the edition they didn't have decent options.
You should be smashing your head on your desk because you have 2 different PL for the same unit from the same source. Some is probably going to get yelled at
that's a lot to go through Oblits look crazy (average) S 12 (9) AP -6 (-3) D 6 (3)
The only thing the power level thing shows is that one of the pictures was not final. They were clearly both GW.
Which also shows that your insistance on relying on power levels to make final judgement was flawed from the get go. ( to no fault of your own since we didn't have both)
Nobody was faulting you for making comparisons, it was the way you implied that nothing major could change from now to release.
And not only did it turn out that power levels might not be what we thought they were, not even the points were/are a sure thing, so clearly you were jumping the gun there a bit.
On Oblits, how are you getting to average strenth 9 or even 12?
The gun I'm seeing S6 +d3 so 8 on average and max 9, same for the rest. Ap-2 average and 2 damage average.
You got yet another leak?
I didn't think anybody was but there is just as likely to be very little change as a large change to occur.
Misread it saw D6 for some reason but not much different 1 less/more ap and damage S 8 on average is still good.
I'm seeing what happened now, in the images they say "you roll 1..3..2...S7...AP-3...D2" Which doesn't match up, it should be S7 Ap-2 and D1
if anything chaos is moving even further to the forefront of thoughts with this edition, 6th edition and most of 7th was "Age of xenos" 8th looks like it's gonna be "age of chaos" (obviously eaither way the IoM gets love)
SilverAlien wrote: Something worth mentioning, the rule book leaks have inceptors going up to 45 ppm from 39, and assault bolter for 7 to 15. Which means a point increase of 159 points to 225, a 42% increase.
Depending on which leak is more accurate, it's entirely possible inceptors have gotten a (deserved) point and power hike at some point.
Yeah but I think that might be too much.
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BrianDavion wrote: if anything chaos is moving even further to the forefront of thoughts with this edition, 6th edition and most of 7th was "Age of xenos" 8th looks like it's gonna be "age of chaos" (obviously eaither way the IoM gets love)
I hope not. I don't want an Age of Chaos I want each army to get equal amounts of love, which is impossible, but they should be striving for that.
Yoyoyo wrote: The first 8th edition datasheet GW released was Rubric Marines. Think about what message they wanted to send to players.
They're not going to be an afterthought.
They wanted a well know unit that has a Psyker embedded so they could go over everything in the datasheet, and with a lot of people recently paying lots of money for new models it helps put people minds at ease.
Melissia wrote: Besides, chaos has never really been an afterthought compared to a lot of other armies.
Never said that was the case. But I don't want ANY army to be an after thought. Orcs probably got the worst of it out of all the armies, but that doesn't mean we should ignore CSM it means we should figure out what is wrong balance wise with each army and fix them.
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Roknar wrote: Yea, I could see Rubrics having a 2+ most of the time, but never worse than 50% chance at saving. That's pretty much the equivalent of cataphractii terminator armour.
I dont see that happening it would make them under-priced.
Yoyoyo wrote: It's 5+ invul against multiwound since they will lose the bonus.
Still, 2+/4++ is more than decent for a MEQ unit against everything else.
Except it would be more like a 2++ or a 3++which is just crazy.
Invul saves aren't affected by cover and there's no other known modifiers except "All is Dust". We may see rr1's, which are no joke on a 2+ armor save. Bolters and Lasguns will just splash off them. But right now Rubrics are at a 4++ max, dropping to 5++ once the real hardware comes out. Considering one of the worst balance offenders in 7th was the 2++/rr1's combo, I'd be very surprised if there's an easy way to access a 2++.
Chaos players are quite amazing, they can have brand new incredible looking models, 2 daemon primarchs, many special rules created to cater to just them, 7th ed psychic dominance and so much more...and all they do is whinge.
Vulkan Fran'cis wrote: Chaos players are quite amazing, they can have brand new incredible looking models, 2 daemon primarchs, many special rules created to cater to just them, 7th ed psychic dominance and so much more...and all they do is whinge.
Well, its more to do with being second son to Space Marines.
This could have been the edition where they changed Storm Shields and other Imperial Advantages and they haven't. Our one workhorse, the Heldrake took the biggest hit with the new template rules,
On the plus, Plasma is over all better, and not completely outshone by Grav weaponry anymore. Plasma Cannons seem worse, but Ive never run them anyway.
Invul saves aren't affected by cover and there's no other known modifiers except "All is Dust". We may see rr1's, which are no joke on a 2+ armor save. Bolters and Lasguns will just splash off them. But right now Rubrics are at a 4++ max, dropping to 5++ once the real hardware comes out. Considering one of the worst balance offenders in 7th was the 2++/rr1's combo, I'd be very surprised if there's an easy way to access a 2++.
With support units focused on adding to the invul save you could have a single unit to 2++ using a spell and an aura. Which might limit you to one unit but 2++/3++ would be scary. Even a 3++ rerolling 1s is pretty potent. And adding a single +1 will be very doable for a Tzeentch.
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Vulkan Fran'cis wrote: Chaos players are quite amazing, they can have brand new incredible looking models, 2 daemon primarchs, many special rules created to cater to just them, 7th ed psychic dominance and so much more...and all they do is whinge.
Vulkan Fran'cis wrote: Chaos players are quite amazing, they can have brand new incredible looking models, 2 daemon primarchs, many special rules created to cater to just them, 7th ed psychic dominance and so much more...and all they do is whinge.
Well, its more to do with being second son to Space Marines.
This could have been the edition where they changed Storm Shields and other Imperial Advantages and they haven't. Our one workhorse, the Heldrake took the biggest hit with the new template rules,
On the plus, Plasma is over all better, and not completely outshone by Grav weaponry anymore. Plasma Cannons seem worse, but Ive never run them anyway.
are you refering to 8th edition? as I really like the helldrake in 8th. it's got some pretty awesome qualities
Invul saves aren't affected by cover and there's no other known modifiers except "All is Dust". We may see rr1's, which are no joke on a 2+ armor save. Bolters and Lasguns will just splash off them. But right now Rubrics are at a 4++ max, dropping to 5++ once the real hardware comes out. Considering one of the worst balance offenders in 7th was the 2++/rr1's combo, I'd be very surprised if there's an easy way to access a 2++.
With support units focused on adding to the invul save you could have a single unit to 2++ using a spell and an aura. Which might limit you to one unit but 2++/3++ would be scary. Even a 3++ rerolling 1s is pretty potent. And adding a single +1 will be very doable for a Tzeentch.
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Vulkan Fran'cis wrote: Chaos players are quite amazing, they can have brand new incredible looking models, 2 daemon primarchs, many special rules created to cater to just them, 7th ed psychic dominance and so much more...and all they do is whinge.
Thanks. That was super helpful.
You are assuming all of these ability exist, are usable by a single army, and can stack. We have nothing that tells us this is the case yet. Way to panic.
Heldrake seems to lose out on some flyer rules, but also loses out on the flyer restrictions too. Its basically a FMC now. Its just no longer auto include. If anything, its just another bullet sponge now.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Heldrake seems to lose out on some flyer rules, but also loses out on the flyer restrictions too. Its basically a FMC now. Its just no longer auto include. If anything, its just another bullet sponge now.
honestly I think it's weapon isn't gonna be it's primary source of damage, this things gonna zoom in, breath fire (or bullets) and then crash into melee. it'll play more like it's been depicted as in the art honestly.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Heldrake seems to lose out on some flyer rules, but also loses out on the flyer restrictions too. Its basically a FMC now. Its just no longer auto include. If anything, its just another bullet sponge now.
honestly I think it's weapon isn't gonna be it's primary source of damage, this things gonna zoom in, breath fire (or bullets) and then crash into melee. it'll play more like it's been depicted as in the art honestly.
Leth wrote: Also you know....with movement 30 it can first turn assault all over the place...
I'm seeing heldrakes in plenty of future lists as a decapitation unit. S7 AP-1 and D3 damage and 6 attacks means he can deliver the pain. Specially with marks.
Roknar wrote: Yea, I could see Rubrics having a 2+ most of the time, but never worse than 50% chance at saving. That's pretty much the equivalent of cataphractii terminator armour.
I dont see that happening it would make them under-priced.
Yoyoyo wrote: It's 5+ invul against multiwound since they will lose the bonus.
Still, 2+/4++ is more than decent for a MEQ unit against everything else.
Except it would be more like a 2++ or a 3++which is just crazy.
They already HAVE a 4+ invulnerable. Re-read all is dust, it affects all their saves, not just armour, meaning they have a 4++ vs all 1 damage weapons.
That includes things like plasma guns unless they are overloaded, which would still be good for you as they might loose models.
When I wrote that I wasn't aware that all is dust already gave them a 4++, I was just certain they would get it in same way. They've always been 4++ and still are, just in a different way.
So it's not a 50% chance all the time, but it's still pretty good. They're still 2+/4++ vs the majority of weapons in the game.
It works like many of the immunies we've seen so far. Nids are immune to morale, except not really, same for orks. These have excellent saves, except not really since there are ways around it.
Which could become a tactic all by itself. In order to eliminate that benefit, you need to use multi damage weapons, which are then not shooting at actual multi wound units that we have.
Rubrics in cover have a 1+ save, so if your opponent needs them gone, they're going to have to get out the big guns, at which point they are toast, but it's still a good thing for you in a way.
Blessings of tzeentch used to buff that even further, but that might have been replaced by all is dust now, so no guarantees they're going to be tougher.
Also they've been trying to break deathstars and moving away from crazy stuff like re-rollable 2++s so I very much doubt that's going to be a thing anymore.
Even if it was, you're not going to be using that with rubrics anymore than people did in 7th. You reserve that for knights or princes and stuff.
Still blessing didn't come from the rubrics nor did any of the other stacking buffs, all of that came from army synergy which we haven't seen anything about yet.
What we have seen is that they are reducing the amount of spells. Also, prescience and warptime were shifted to dark hereticus, which is interesting as those were BRB powers.
It might mean that there aren't any BRB powers anymore and the powers themselves are much more limited in what they can target due to keywords, so I "broken" combos like that are going to be much harder if not impossible.
