I am quite liking 2 ML, 2 PC and 1 LC in my Long Fangs. I almost always overcharge the plasma unless they moved and it works a treat. Against tough targets, everything is AP-2 or better and does 2 damage or D6. Against hordes and 2D6+2D3+1 shots which is usually enough to at least make a dent.
Karhedron wrote: I am quite liking 2 ML, 2 PC and 1 LC in my Long Fangs. I almost always overcharge the plasma unless they moved and it works a treat. Against tough targets, everything is AP-2 or better and does 2 damage or D6. Against hordes and 2D6+2D3+1 shots which is usually enough to at least make a dent.
Yeah, nothing wrong with this as long as you have enough of the right guns spread around your army, though I'm personally not a big fan of the random shots of the plasma cannon for its price.
BaconCatBug wrote: Drop Pod Long Fangs are not worth it anymore, right? I'd be better off just taking Tempestus Scions with Plasma?
IMO no way. 100pts tax for the pod and with 4-5 MM you're just going to hit twice or maybe thrice (on 4+), wound once or twice and cause maybe 4-5 damage on average per wound with the reroll. And they are going to get wiped out the next turn guaranteed. That's just too little work done for 300 pts. MAYBE if you drop 1-2 packs of terminators with them as a screen and as an even bigger threat... but that's not a cheap little detachment any more.
I might suggest dropping 5 cheap HB guys on a remote objective.. they're not threatening enough to warrant priority elimination but you are still going to have to commit some firepower to remove them. And they can still dish out 15 S5 AP-1 shots so not completely useless either.
Again it depends on how many Drop Pods you are dropping and if not going Drop Wolves make sure you have TWC impacting on their front lines. One of the tricks to using Drop Pods is go big, 3+ and have something else for them to worry about. One of the things Drop Pods do is put your opponent on the Defensive and make him react to you.
With Three Drop pods you take the 15 HB Shots and turn them into 45 Heavy Bolter Shots along with 12 Plasma Gun Shots and 12 Storm Bolter Shots not counting what the Wolf Lord and Wolf Guard Battle Leader you bring along, so add 4 more Plasma Gun Shots.
jcd386 wrote: Do you have an example full list of this drop poddiness? I have trouble thinking it packs quite enough punch, but am interested to see it.
Not for 8th yet, still looking into what, but Probably something like:
Wolf Guard x9 Storm Bolters/Power Swords
Wolf Guard Battle Leader with Storm Bolter and Frost Sword.
Drop Pod
Wolf Guard 3x Combi-Plasma and Bolt Pistols
Rune Priest Runic Sword & Combi-Plasma
Drop Pod
Wolf Guard 7x Mix 'Power Weapons', Storm Shields, and Plasma Pistols (No two Alike)
Ragnar with pair of wolves
Drop Pod
Wolf Guard Bikers with Storm Bolters x10
Wolf Priest on a Bike with Storm Bolter
My worry with lists that have a lot of stuff dropping in are as follows:
If the enemy knows you are coming, and they do, they should be able to screen their good stuff with their not as good stuff. This does limit the way they deploy, which is good for you, but maybe not good enough. Any good player is going to make sure that you can't get a charge of on a good unit, so when you come in you are too far away to do much. Then you take the brunt of the enemy shooting on basic infantry that may or may not be in cover.
If you don't use drop pods, you tend to have a lot of drops, meaning you probably don't go first, meaning your non dropping units are gonna get shot at, and your opponent knows you are coming and can screen stuff even more than they did in deploying.
Units that can't reroll their charge need to be good enough at shooting that it's okay, or even planned that they won't assault. VV, Wolf guard, and Grav devs seem to do this okay, but assault units tend to pay a heavy price if they fail the charge.
This all makes me think that having half your army drop in, and dropping everything you have in on turn one isn't a great idea.
I've been leaning much more towards having 1 scary unit dropping in sometime during the game, but not necessarily on turn one. If you have enough other things on the table taking objctives and doing damage, the opponent is more likely to get out of formation and leave something vulnerable to being deep struck on. If that scary unit is something like 10 Wolf guard, vanguard vets, or death company, or terminators, it will still be quite disruptive to the enemy, and may be enough to force him to deploy defensiveky, giving you an advantage elsewhere. But then you also have 90% of an army on the table to distract, do damage, and threaten objectives.
jcd386 wrote: My worry with lists that have a lot of stuff dropping in are as follows:
If the enemy knows you are coming, and they do, they should be able to screen their good stuff with their not as good stuff. This does limit the way they deploy, which is good for you, but maybe not good enough. Any good player is going to make sure that you can't get a charge of on a good unit, so when you come in you are too far away to do much. Then you take the brunt of the enemy shooting on basic infantry that may or may not be in cover.
If you don't use drop pods, you tend to have a lot of drops, meaning you probably don't go first, meaning your non dropping units are gonna get shot at, and your opponent knows you are coming and can screen stuff even more than they did in deploying.
Units that can't reroll their charge need to be good enough at shooting that it's okay, or even planned that they won't assault. VV, Wolf guard, and Grav devs seem to do this okay, but assault units tend to pay a heavy price if they fail the charge.
This all makes me think that having half your army drop in, and dropping everything you have in on turn one isn't a great idea.
I've been leaning much more towards having 1 scary unit dropping in sometime during the game, but not necessarily on turn one. If you have enough other things on the table taking objctives and doing damage, the opponent is more likely to get out of formation and leave something vulnerable to being deep struck on. If that scary unit is something like 10 Wolf guard, vanguard vets, or death company, or terminators, it will still be quite disruptive to the enemy, and may be enough to force him to deploy defensiveky, giving you an advantage elsewhere. But then you also have 90% of an army on the table to distract, do damage, and threaten objectives.
Yes the fear of what is in the Drop Pods can be a big threat and cause a Castling Response, if you are good you can use that to his advantage and cost them some maneuvering against what is hopefully a very Mobile Space Wolf Army.
As an example, I was playing my ultramarine list (Bobby g, 2x dakka dreads, las preds, rhinos, asscan razorbacks, captains, and scout units, plus three tac squads with Grav Cannon and Combi plasma) against a blood Angel player with lemartes, 15 death co, a captain, and a command squad dropping in on me while some other units moved up the board and scouts held objectives.
My list only has 9 drops with everything embarked, so I was going first, and deployed in a corner with the only chargeable units being a razorbacks, Dread, and rhino, each far enough from other units to not get oiled in on if things did go badly. I kept my scouts inside the outer transports to minimize my drops, with plans to disembark and advance them during my first turn.
Unfortunately for me, he stole the initiative, so I wasn't able to get my scouts out to block his drops, but my deployment was enough to keep the damage low. He made the charge with the death company, but failed with the other units. The death company beat up my razorback, and actually managed to lock up a rhino I had thought was too far away, but that was all. The next turn I killed all of the dropped units except the captain and lemartes, but got them both down to one wound. I am confident that this is the result i would get against most dropping lists, and this was an ideal scenario with him stealing the initiative.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Drop Pods lost the only reason I cared to use them.
No Dread transportation no real reason to use them.
Use Forge World rules and hope the opponent doesn't mind?
I was doing that last edition and loving it.
None of my community wants anything to do with FW in 8th, something about a few models being beyond crazy.
Didn't stop them playing Invisibility, Wraithknights and Skyhammer last edition...
Dakka Wolf wrote: Drop Pods lost the only reason I cared to use them.
No Dread transportation no real reason to use them.
Use Forge World rules and hope the opponent doesn't mind?
I was doing that last edition and loving it.
None of my community wants anything to do with FW in 8th, something about a few models being beyond crazy.
Didn't stop them playing Invisibility, Wraithknights and Skyhammer last edition...
Doesn't really matter honestly, it's part of regular GW now. Maybe in 5th it was an agreement but not anymore.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Drop Pods lost the only reason I cared to use them.
No Dread transportation no real reason to use them.
Use Forge World rules and hope the opponent doesn't mind?
I was doing that last edition and loving it.
None of my community wants anything to do with FW in 8th, something about a few models being beyond crazy.
Didn't stop them playing Invisibility, Wraithknights and Skyhammer last edition...
Doesn't really matter honestly, it's part of regular GW now. Maybe in 5th it was an agreement but not anymore.
That's the part I found terrible. There was worse stuff in 7th ed Standard codecies than anything in 7th ed Forgeworld and Forgeworld was still by agreement.
...maybe someone in Forgeworld's rules writing department was equally disturbed by Forgeworld not being the crazy stuff.
So the Wolves haven't really been rocking the tournament scene and our W/L ratio is in a slow but steady decline in the dakka results thread...
Anyone with more games under their belt have a good idea what the new SW "meta" is? What has performed well and what is a no-go? Or are we internally balanced but just behind the curve?
Plasma Hunters in Assault Cannon Rozorbacks make a solid core. Bjorn kicks derrier in the HQ slot and works well with some Primaris units on foot like Hellblasters and Aggressors. Tempestus powers are pretty good and Njal has access to all 3 making him a good choice too.
Long Fangs can reroll 1s to hit which most other Marines require a babysitting HQ to achieve so I am fond of them provided you have some more pressing targets to keep your opponent preoccupied.
For assault, Wulfen and TWC still seem to rock. Wolf Guard on bikes look promising too, particularly the stormbolter variant for maximum dakka.
Both flyers have been getting a lot of love too so are worth considering.
How do you use Björn efficiently? He's rather expensive and unless you're going into melee to seriously wreck face I don't see him doing enough damage to earn his place. And in melee he is vulnerable... if you are seriously camping midfield to spread that reroll 1's around he becomes better obviously.
Hey everyone, first post but I am a long time player coming back since 4th ed. I have a ton of old school stuff but none of the newer toys like aircraft, wulfin, thunderwolfs, stuff like that.
I have been playing against another new player learning the rules and they are tyrnaid. Finally we are playing power points until my opponent learns the rules better.
So I have read every post on this thread. My issue / question is about space wolf guard on bikes, I have 6 models to put together but not sure how. I was originally going to put them as 5 men w/ thunder hammers and storm shields with either a wolf lord or wolf priest in the group to make them hit harder / revive some. They were going to be big bug hunters. But it sounds like storm shields, storm bolters, and storm shields make for an incredibly fast, powerful, and shooty squad with some serious survival ability to deal with smaller bugs like genestealers, gaunts, tyrnaid warriors, things like that.
Why am I posting this here and not a separate thread? Because this is more of a "what is the better OVERALL load out for bikes now if you don't know what army your fighting" and not vs tyrnaid. I like to make my lists as all on comers and not focused on killing a single thing. Or should I do swiftwolves instead of guard?
Azuza001 wrote: Hey everyone, first post but I am a long time player coming back since 4th ed. I have a ton of old school stuff but none of the newer toys like aircraft, wulfin, thunderwolfs, stuff like that.
I have been playing against another new player learning the rules and they are tyrnaid. Finally we are playing power points until my opponent learns the rules better.
So I have read every post on this thread. My issue / question is about space wolf guard on bikes, I have 6 models to put together but not sure how. I was originally going to put them as 5 men w/ thunder hammers and storm shields with either a wolf lord or wolf priest in the group to make them hit harder / revive some. They were going to be big bug hunters. But it sounds like storm shields, storm bolters, and storm shields make for an incredibly fast, powerful, and shooty squad with some serious survival ability to deal with smaller bugs like genestealers, gaunts, tyrnaid warriors, things like that.
Why am I posting this here and not a separate thread? Because this is more of a "what is the better OVERALL load out for bikes now if you don't know what army your fighting" and not vs tyrnaid. I like to make my lists as all on comers and not focused on killing a single thing. Or should I do swiftwolves instead of guard?
I run two wolf guard biker packs in 2000 points. One is kitted with shields and combi plasma to hunt hard targets while the other has shields and storm bolters to thin hordes.
Azuza001 wrote: Hey everyone, first post but I am a long time player coming back since 4th ed. I have a ton of old school stuff but none of the newer toys like aircraft, wulfin, thunderwolfs, stuff like that.
I have been playing against another new player learning the rules and they are tyrnaid. Finally we are playing power points until my opponent learns the rules better.
So I have read every post on this thread. My issue / question is about space wolf guard on bikes, I have 6 models to put together but not sure how. I was originally going to put them as 5 men w/ thunder hammers and storm shields with either a wolf lord or wolf priest in the group to make them hit harder / revive some. They were going to be big bug hunters. But it sounds like storm shields, storm bolters, and storm shields make for an incredibly fast, powerful, and shooty squad with some serious survival ability to deal with smaller bugs like genestealers, gaunts, tyrnaid warriors, things like that.
Why am I posting this here and not a separate thread? Because this is more of a "what is the better OVERALL load out for bikes now if you don't know what army your fighting" and not vs tyrnaid. I like to make my lists as all on comers and not focused on killing a single thing. Or should I do swiftwolves instead of guard?
I run two wolf guard biker packs in 2000 points. One is kitted with shields and combi plasma to hunt hard targets while the other has shields and storm bolters to thin hordes.
So your experience says that using the guard on bikes they should be shooting focused and not melee focused. Sad, as I love the idea of them roaring in on their bikes and smashing their opponents apart but it makes sense. Thanks.
Making them shooting oriented is just better because bolters + combi + regular attacks tends to do more damage than bolters + melee weapon attacks.
Thunder hammers also aren't great on WS 3+ models with only 2 attacks. Ideally you want them on wolf lords with 4 attacks, ws2+, and rerolls, or something similar.
So wolf guard on bikes storm bolters and storm shields for extra survival mobile shooting platform seems to be the best way to go. I admit that 20 shots from 5 men is pretty sweet. That should really do a number on those damn squads of 15 genestealers lol.
Wolf guard with jump packs I see the same issue with thunder hammers here as on the bikers so frost axes? Would you gives them storm shields as well? I assume they will be deep striking (old rule term I know but I don't remember off the top of my head what the new rule is called). Leaves me 5 thunder hammers to put on something lol (I had them left over from years ago). But that's a problem for another time.
In the aforementioned WG Biker unit with all the storm bolters and shields, is it worth it to trade out the pack leader's shield for a good melee weapon like a Frost Sword?
Azuza001 wrote: So wolf guard on bikes storm bolters and storm shields for extra survival mobile shooting platform seems to be the best way to go. I admit that 20 shots from 5 men is pretty sweet. That should really do a number on those damn squads of 15 genestealers lol.
Wolf guard with jump packs I see the same issue with thunder hammers here as on the bikers so frost axes? Would you gives them storm shields as well? I assume they will be deep striking (old rule term I know but I don't remember off the top of my head what the new rule is called). Leaves me 5 thunder hammers to put on something lol (I had them left over from years ago). But that's a problem for another time.
Power Mauls on the lads and a Frost Axe on the squad leader.
If you choose to deck your boys out for melee grab the stuff that's useful as often as possible.
Daemons, Sisters and Guard all hate Strength6, high rending values are meanigless to Daemons, Nids infantry, Space Marines with Storm Shields, Guard and often Sisters as well.
Strength six with one or two ap values will punk T3 models on a 2+ and bring most of them down to a 6+ save, Marines will be wounded on a 3+ and mostly drop to a 4+ save.
Fear the Marine with the Iron Club.
ZergSmasher wrote: In the aforementioned WG Biker unit with all the storm bolters and shields, is it worth it to trade out the pack leader's shield for a good melee weapon like a Frost Sword?
Depends really. But the leader is probably going to be your last man standing and the shield is probably not going to do much at that point. As much dakka as the bolters offer, it really isn't that effective against 2+/3+ saves, so a Frost Sword might actually sting a little on a last ditch charge. But I would keep them out of CC if at all possible, 2 attacks S4 AP0 is just too pathetic really compared to 8 shots S4 AP0.
So I ended up going with 4 wg on bikes with ss and sb, with a leader with sb and thunder hammer (couldn't resist), then found I had a 6th biker (no idea where he came from) so I modeled up a wolfpriest to ride with them. I also have a Wolford on a bike already with frost sword and stormshield from years ago, I am going to make these guys the center to focus my army around.
I really think I will go with the elite formation, I have a lot of terminators already, 5 with claws, 4 with thunder hammers and storm shields, 4 with assault cannons, 1 with cyclone missile launcher, 6 with power fist / storm bolters, and 3 with power weapons and storm bolters. Question is with those options where do I go next? Our games are 45 points max and my bikers already take a nice chunk out of it. A small squad to pin between the bikers and my hqs seem to be a good choice for a battle plan. Or maybe go long fangs, 5 missile and the term with cyclone?
Options lol. Our game is tomorrow so I have time to think.
Azuza001 wrote: So I ended up going with 4 wg on bikes with ss and sb, with a leader with sb and thunder hammer (couldn't resist), then found I had a 6th biker (no idea where he came from) so I modeled up a wolfpriest to ride with them. I also have a Wolford on a bike already with frost sword and stormshield from years ago, I am going to make these guys the center to focus my army around.
I really think I will go with the elite formation, I have a lot of terminators already, 5 with claws, 4 with thunder hammers and storm shields, 4 with assault cannons, 1 with cyclone missile launcher, 6 with power fist / storm bolters, and 3 with power weapons and storm bolters. Question is with those options where do I go next? Our games are 45 points max and my bikers already take a nice chunk out of it. A small squad to pin between the bikers and my hqs seem to be a good choice for a battle plan. Or maybe go long fangs, 5 missile and the term with cyclone?
Options lol. Our game is tomorrow so I have time to think.
A Wolf priest is well wasted with a shooty squad. His greatest strength is the rerolls in CC and even with those he's slightly overcosted IMO. So unless you're utilizing the rerolls you are better off with something else. If you can position him so that he gives his aura to your CC terminators and/or Wolf Lord he might be viable though.
Weazel wrote: So the Wolves haven't really been rocking the tournament scene and our W/L ratio is in a slow but steady decline in the dakka results thread...
Anyone with more games under their belt have a good idea what the new SW "meta" is? What has performed well and what is a no-go? Or are we internally balanced but just behind the curve?
In my lists I run:
wolf lord with 2 claws
battle leader on thunderwolf with shield and hammer
wolf priest on bike
rune priest on bike
ulrik the slayer
arjac rockfist
1x12-16 bloodclaws
lukas the trickster
2-3x6 grey hunters
stormwolf (tipycally without meltas)
2-3 razorbacks with twin assault cannons
1x5-6 WG terminators (only with deep strike)
1x5-6 WG on bikes with stormbolters
1x5-6 WG on foot with stormbolters
1x5-6 WG on foot with combi plasmas (once I tried combi meltas)
1-2x5-6 thunderwolves
1-2x5 wulfen
1-2x4-5 long fangs (tipycally with missiles but sometimes also lascannons or plasma cannons, all the same kind of weapon in a unit anyway)
I don't play in tournaments but I still face semi-competitive lists and all these units performed well, I've had good results with them so far. Actually I've done better with SW in 8th edition rather than in 7th as I hated deathstars and they were probably the most competitive way to play the wolves. I haven't tried fenrisian wolves and drop pods, honestly I don't know what to do with these units.
Weazel wrote: How do you use Björn efficiently? He's rather expensive and unless you're going into melee to seriously wreck face I don't see him doing enough damage to earn his place. And in melee he is vulnerable... if you are seriously camping midfield to spread that reroll 1's around he becomes better obviously.
I think i would move him up with GH rhinos/razors so he can give them rerolls but still get cover.
I really like mech lists with rhinos, razors, long fangs, and grey hunters with 3 or 4 HQs for powers / rerolls.
This is it. I plan to advance Bjorn with a couple of razorbacks and a squad of Primaris Hellblasters on foot. That is a lot of firepower that can benefit from Bjorn's rerolls while advancing and you can overcharge the Hellblasters fairly safely too. Once you get close to the enemy, you have the option of charging or shooting those rapid fire weapons up close. Bjorn can then either act as your counter-charge element or spearhead your assault. I would add a Rune Priest with Stormcaller to give all those advancing units the benefit of cover.
Technically Bjorn is vulnerable in assault. In practice he hits on a 2+ with rerolls and inflicts a metric ton of damage with Trueclaw. I have seen him take down Knights before. Give him the Warlord trait that gives him 6+ FNP as this stacks with his 5+ Ward of the Primarch making him particularly tough to remove.
So your experience says that using the guard on bikes they should be shooting focused and not melee focused. Sad, as I love the idea of them roaring in on their bikes and smashing their opponents apart but it makes sense. Thanks.
8 shots each at 12" range is just too much dakka to ignore. Also the Stormbolter build compliments their bikes' firepower rather than contradicting it. If they had a way to shoot after withdrawing from combat it might be worth giving them CC equipment but overall I think just putting a Frost sword on the leader for emergencies is probably the best solution.
If you want a good unit to run alongside them then CC Thunderwolves are epic. Their mount comes with extra CC attacks so these guys really want to get into CC. Use both units on a flank to utterly crush an enemy. Thunderwolves work well with a Wolf Priest on bike as they have lots of attacks to benefit from rerolls and 3 wounds each makes it easier for the Priest to heal them. A Priest also mitigates against the -1 to hit from Thunderhammers so this is a good place to put a couple to deal with hard targets.
The actual plan at the moment isnt to use the wolf priest on the bikers but to use the bikers to screen for the wolf priest so it can get close to a target before charging. Then teleport either terminators and charge or drop in skyclaws and charge with the wolf priest while the bikers shoot at a secondary target. At least until I get my hands on some twc. But that won't be for a few weeks.
I know wolf guard bikes can not take 3 weapons but what's stopping jp wolf guard from taking close combat weapon combi and storm shield this is still ok right it reads as that in the book and there FAQs doesn't dis allow it am I missing something cheers
Here is my list for the game last night, remember we are playing power lvl.
Hq -
Wolf priest on bike
Elite -
Wolf guard on bikes - 4 men w/storm bolters & storm shields, 1 leader w/ thunder hammer and storm shield.
Wolf guard in terminator armor - 3 men w/ thunder hammers & storm shields, 1 with assault cannon and power first, 1 leader with thunder hammer and storm shield.
Heavy Support -
Long fangs - 5 fangs with missile launchers, 1 wolf guard pack leader with term armor and cyclone missile launcher / power fist.
Total - 45 points
So played a game with them, yes they are amazing with storm bolters and storm shields. Having the one have a thunder hammer helped a lot when they were charged by some tyrnaid warriors. I definitely will take them again. They wiped out a squad of gaunts, killed off 2 tyrnaid warriors in shooting then finished the last one in close combat, and dropped a squad of genestealers from 15 strong to 8 from over watch and the close combat that happened after. The wolf priest however died a painful death, was charged by genestealers and I rolled horrible for his save (had to make 5 saves and all came up 1's and 2's) so I will have to try him again.
I Set the long fangs up in cover, my first turn (I went second) they killed a hive tyrant, second turn they did some wounds to a carnifex, then became food for a trygon prime but they still performed great.
Finally my wolf guard in term armor went hand to hand with a carnifex and killed it in one turn, then tooknon the trygon and killed it, then spun around and finished off the 8 remaining genestealers that killed the bikes. It was close but a good time.
Next time though I won't go so elite orientated, I miss my 2 10 man Grey hunter lines. I don't like playing with such a small elite force.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
luke666 wrote: I know wolf guard bikes can not take 3 weapons but what's stopping jp wolf guard from taking close combat weapon combi and storm shield this is still ok right it reads as that in the book and there FAQs doesn't dis allow it am I missing something cheers
It's in the faq.
Page 158 – Wolf Guard, Wargear Options
Replace the first three wargear options with
the following:
‘• Any model may replace its boltgun with a plasma
pistol, storm shield or an item from the Space Wolves
Melee Weapons or Space Wolves Combi-weapons lists; it
may also replace its bolt pistol with a plasma pistol,
storm shield or an item from the Space Wolves Melee
Weapons list.’
Ok am I just looking at the wrong faq because that is not in mine imperial 1 on Gw site can someone post a link I have the arjac at pack thing thunder wolves, charictors wargear etc but nothing to do with wolf guard
luke666 wrote: Ok am I just looking at the wrong faq because that is not in mine imperial 1 on Gw site can someone post a link I have the arjac at pack thing thunder wolves, charictors wargear etc but nothing to do with wolf guard
Is Logan Grimnar worth taking, either his sleigh-riding version or the regular Termie-armor on foot version? I have the latter, and I was wondering about if he's worth taking at all. He's kind of like Belial in the Dark Angels army, except his buffs apply to all Space Wolves instead of just Wolf Guard or something. He's also a lot of points, and even more if riding the sleigh. Is there a good way to use the Great Wolf?
I would say he is not worth it on the sleigh, since he is over 10 wounds and can just be shot to death.
On foot his re-rolls to hit are wonderful...but that is about it, in my opinion. The morale ignoring ability for wolf guard is pretty terrible, as they rarely fail morale anyway, and since he is in terminator armor, his transportation options are very limited.
If you plan on taking a beat-stick unit in a land raider or flier, he might be an okay choice, but I think Arjac might be a better one with his +1 attack for wolf guard.
Seems like the game has become a Super Heavy brawl again.
Imperial Knights are dominating successful "Space Wolves" lists. They supply too many wounds to be focused on and lay down too much damage to be ignored.
I'm not sure about other Marine Chapters but I'm terrified of Guard and SoB, they lay down so many shots that even 2+ armour fails eventually.
Having one Knight completely reverses that issue.
There has got to be a way of doing it with Pure Space Wolves.
I am not sure but wouldn't long fangs be a good solution? 6 fangs with laser cannons, with a term leader with cyclone missile launcher (or just all missile launchers if your making a list that you want to be adaptable for all on comers) would be able to put out so much damage it should do amazing against heavy targets like a knight. Or instead of the term leader just go with the fangs and put them in a razorback then deploy them during your first turn if your worried about them getting killed before you get a chance to use them. With their ability to reroll without needing a wolf lord around it should not be an issue.
This is all theory from me though, currently I only fight tyrnaids so I don't have heavy units like that to deal with. Just hive tyrants / carnifex / Trygons and missile launchers work great against all 3. Can kill any of them in a single round of shooting with a few wounds left over.
Also sky fangs are cheap and dropping in then assaulting to tie up their tanks for a turn or 2 if your lucky is very effective. Just keep them cheap so losing them isn't a big deal and gives you time to run expensive option like wolf guard on bikes or thunder wolves up the field. Again just theory hammer here.
It takes 20 las cannon shots rerolling 1s to hit to mathematically kill a knight. Or 27 missiles. If you have a WGBL around these numbers go to 17 and 23.
Moving means you need 25% more shots to make up for missed shots.
That's more fire power than most lists will have at long range of the first turn, though even just getting a knight to half wounds is useful.
Sky fangs seem okay...if they get a good way to reroll charges that would be nice, though they can't tie up knights and other big stuff.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Seems like the game has become a Super Heavy brawl again.
Imperial Knights are dominating successful "Space Wolves" lists. They supply too many wounds to be focused on and lay down too much damage to be ignored.
I'm not sure about other Marine Chapters but I'm terrified of Guard and SoB, they lay down so many shots that even 2+ armour fails eventually.
Having one Knight completely reverses that issue.
There has got to be a way of doing it with Pure Space Wolves.
In super competitive environments pure wolves weren't competitive even in 7th, they became mid tiers only with SM psykers or celestine.
And the AM is by far the most competitive army in this edition, it's ok to struggle against them. I think the best way to deal with them is to bring a lot of vehicles, eventually bikes and thunderwolves with several storm shields as AM is extremely good against infantries and just ok against tanks. Long fangs can kill their tanks from distance and plasma scions firepower can be invalidated by storm shields. Razorbacks can suffer plasmas a lot but you should be able to go first and even a single turn of movement plus shooting is helpful for a mobile army.
IMHO pure wolves are now better than before, thanks to the transports mostly. But also terminators, wolf guards of any kind, and scout are improved a lot. Razorbacks and stormwolves are excellent transports and have decent firepower too.
Bjorn can rip Knights apart. He dealt 17 wounds to a Wraithknight in a single round of close combat in my last game. The trick is to protect him. His Character status is useful but he needs bodyguards as a charge can otherwise leave him exposed.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Sky Fangs?
Sky Claws or Long Fangs with a Drop Pod?
Yeah i meant sky claws, lol.
I definitely think mech is the way to go when it comes to space wolves, the issue right now is there isn't much difference between a mech SW list and a SM one, except that the SM one is better and has more options.
The changes to the vehicles have made mech armies pretty strong in 8th but I suspect that will lead to a proliferation of lascannons and melta guns in the tournament scene.
Mech wolves have some advantages as we can pack more plasma into a Hunter squad than Codex units can into a Tac squad. Plus we can chuck in Chainswords and a few power weapons etc for extra punch up close.
True, though I've found that the downside to a hunter squad with 5 plasma shots is the cost is high, and needing 6 dudes makes fitting everything into transports difficult.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus a tac squad with combi plasma and heavy grav do the same shooting damage vs marines as the 6 man 5 plasma shots GH for less points.
Hi all I'm looking to add some space wolves to my converted Primaris marines so I can truly make them Sons of Russ instead of just another army of Primaris marines :p
At the moment i'm running
HQ Captain in Gravis Armour
2x Lieutenants
Elites
Primaris Ancient
10 Reivers
Redemptor Dreadnought
Troops
2x 5 man Intercessor Squad
Fast attack
3man Inceptor Squad
Heavy support
5 man Hellblaster Squad
so dose anyone have any ideas what I can add to my army to give it some real oomph?
Bjorn works really well with the Hellblasters and Redemptor. March them up the table together with Bjorn just behind the Redemptor giving everyone rerolls. Bjorn cannot be targetted unless he is the closest model since he is a Character.
Up close, Bjorn can destroy almost anything in assault. He cut a Wraithknight in half for me in my last game. Add an extra Troop choice to fill out your Battalion for those +3CPs. Grey Hunters with melta or plasma in an Assault Cannon Razorback are punchy for the points and bring some horde control as well as anti-tank.
I am really not a fan of the Inceptors as I think they are very overpriced, even with the points drop in the new Codex and PDF. 180 points for 6 T5 wounds is too much for my taste.
That's fair enough. Iv just been running with what I got in the dark imperium set and added on a squad of reivers and a redemptor. I find the inceptors aren't to bad, but aren't spectacular either.
I think I'll definatly gives bjorn a go becuse that combo right there seems prity nasty. How would you kit him out?
When you make a plas/melta grey hunter squad do you kit them out with 1 plasma gun, 1 plasma pistol, and combi-plas on the wolf guard?
I think I'll definatly gives bjorn a go becuse that combo right there seems prity nasty. How would you kit him out?
I have the old-school metal Bjorn so he has an assault cannon which is pretty good but the Hellfrost is tasty too against large targets. I wouldn't bother with the heavy plasma cannon though. The extra -1 to hit when he moves makes overcharging too risky and you don't really want him standing still. Give him Assault Cannon or Hellfrost and leave the plasma to the Hellblasters where it belongs as they can overcharge for much less risk.
That's fair enough, I'll probably run the assault cannon against infantry heavy armies and the frost cannon against vehicle/monster heavy ones.
Thanks heaps guys. I'll let you know how I go once iv got a few games in. One last thing do you think it's worth trying to squeeze in a iron or rune priest to go with bjorn and co?
Rune priests are good for the cover power and the +1 to hit power, so always a solid choice.
Iron priests seem okay if you have a good number of vehicles, though I am not as big a fan of them as most of the other HQs. I've played a few games with them/techmarines and the 1-3 damage they repair so far hasn't mattered very much so i might not bother with them in the future. .
jcd386 wrote: Rune priests are good for the cover power and the +1 to hit power, so always a solid choice.
Iron priests seem okay if you have a good number of vehicles, though I am not as big a fan of them as most of the other HQs. I've played a few games with them/techmarines and the 1-3 damage they repair so far hasn't mattered very much so i might not bother with them in the future. .
Haven't actually used my Iron Priest yet, but I feel he's a bit overpriced for what he does. Usually when my vehicles get focused they just pop in one shooting phase so the repairs would never have helped much. Same with a Wolf Priest, usually when my guys get shot up they get shot up pretty badly and the healing is never going to be of much use. A 6+ or even a 5+ FNP bubble for 3" (for vehicles or infantry/cavalry/bikes respectively) would actually help a lot in making them more worthwhile without making them too overpowered in the process.
Iron Priests need some thought if you want to get mileage out of them. It is not actually the number of vehicles you run but which ones and how long it will take to get his points back.
A Rhino costs 70 points and has 10 wounds so each wound is worth 7 points. An IP costs around 90 points (depending on loadout) so he is going to need to patch up 13 wounds on a Rhino to make his points back which will take 6-7 turns. Not really a good return on investment and a Rhino will only last that long if your opponent is not really shooting at it anyway.
Now if you are looking at Land Raiders, or some of our special Dreads like Bjorn (or a relic Leviathan if you play FW). Then suddenly the vehicles are much tougher to wound and each wound is worth 20-30 points. Now our Iron Priest only has to patch-up 3-4 wounds (2 turns worth) to make his points back and anything on top of that is a bonus.
Land Raiders are good as the IP can ride inside until he needs to get out and repair it. Dreads are good as they do not move much faster than infantry so again the IP can normally be in the right place.
jcd386 wrote: Rune priests are good for the cover power and the +1 to hit power, so always a solid choice.
Iron priests seem okay if you have a good number of vehicles, though I am not as big a fan of them as most of the other HQs. I've played a few games with them/techmarines and the 1-3 damage they repair so far hasn't mattered very much so i might not bother with them in the future. .
Not too many things more satisfying than Jump dropping a Rune Priest on Guard and cutting their BS back a solid point - my opponent opened fire on the Priest and failed to kill him, failed to wound any of the TWC he might have offed.
It was wonderful.
Wolf Priests are overpriced unless you're running TWC and characters on TWC, then they're AMAZING.
One and a half Shield Dreads will justify an Iron Priest against nearly anything - Had an opponent running Chaos drop at least twenty mortal wounds per turn. Shields didn't matter, Iron Priests didn't matter and because both Dreads disappeared on the first turn they barely mattered themselves.
So I've been playing around with my wolves and so far they've won 10 from 10 games, taking out chaos demons; iron hands; eldar; orks; mechanicum....
The list I've been running is 2000 points:
Wolf lord on TW w/SS and wolf claw
Njal in termie armour
3 TW w/ SS and Wolf Claw
3 TW w/ SS and Wolf Claw
3 TW w/ SS and Wolf Claw
5 x grey hunter
5 x grey hunter
5 x grey hunter
6 long fangs (2 rockets, 3 las) ---- will be switching out for a predator
5 x termies 2 w/ SS and tempestus hammers, 3 w/ wolf claws
5 x termies 2 w/ SS and tempestus hammers, 3 w/ wolf claws
The army hits hard and fast. The small grey hunter squads tend to be ignored, letting hem move onto objectives or into good cover.
Njal is a monster. Coming down and hurling a smite and the power that's 2d6 minus movement, that many mortal wounds (name forgotten) really piles on the pain.
The terminators go after the back line and try to disrupt movement pulling enemies back to them, whilst te thunderwolves launch forwards for an early charge. Given toughness 5 and a storm shield they are amazingly durable and tend to rip through opposing units. With the wolf lord near enough they re-roll 1's to hit, whilst the claws let them re-roll to wound. With 2 attacks per rider and 3 for the wolves they make a real mess of things.
The long fangs/predators are there for long range support, trying to crack an opponents heavy armour.
What about a lord with 2 claws? He has a 4+ invuln anyway. That's how I play him.
Don't switch your long fangs for a predator, it doesn't worth it. In your list there aren't any vehicles and even with the termies and the TWC that predator would attract all the anti tank in the opponent's list. If you want a bullet magnet in order to save multi wounds models ok, but long fangs are way more effective with this kind of list.
Have you faced any hordes oriented armies? Since you have no anti infantry shooting other than 15 bolters and a couple of frag missiles I'm just curious about that.
Don't forget that the Thunderwolves themselves contribute 30 S5 AP-1 attacks of their own in addition to what ever their riders are packing. That should help to take a bite out of horde lists.
I agree with you about the Long Fangs though. A couple of lascannon hits can really spoil a Predator's day but Fangs will probably just lose the Pack Leader and 1 gunner. My Long Fangs have lost more models to overheating plasma cannons than enemy firepower since the start of 8th.
Anyone have any idea how the new points from Codex Space Marine work? Do we get to use the cheaper Predators and Power Fists from the C:SM or are we still using the Index points?
Karhedron wrote: Don't forget that the Thunderwolves themselves contribute 30 S5 AP-1 attacks of their own in addition to what ever their riders are packing. That should help to take a bite out of horde lists.
Yeah, I agree about that, I tipycally bring 7-10 TWC too, including the lord. But even with WG with stormbolters and 2-3 twin assault cannons sometimes strong hordes are tough to kill. Conscripts overwatch is insane for example, and if you face them (concrete possibility in 8th edtion) you'd absolutely need to reduce their number by shooting them before getting into assault. Orks green tides with 180+ boyz buffed by ork characters are tough too if you mostly rely on close combat.
The 4+ invulnerable save on the wolf lord has made me consider dropping the shield and going dual claw, but I just can't bring myself to do it.
I've not faced a true horde army with the list yet (mainly because I'm the only one in my group that owns one). My hope would be the toughness of the wolves combined with a strong save would weather the attacks. I've yet to put this into practice though.
The predator is actually going in there for more survivability. My long fangs just don'd tend to see past turn one and for slightly less points I can replace them with a model that does roughly the same fire power, has more wounds, higher toughness and the same save...plus as mentioned. It'll draw heavy fire.
Kingzerno wrote: The 4+ invulnerable save on the wolf lord has made me consider dropping the shield and going dual claw, but I just can't bring myself to do it.
I've not faced a true horde army with the list yet (mainly because I'm the only one in my group that owns one). My hope would be the toughness of the wolves combined with a strong save would weather the attacks. I've yet to put this into practice though.
The predator is actually going in there for more survivability. My long fangs just don'd tend to see past turn one and for slightly less points I can replace them with a model that does roughly the same fire power, has more wounds, higher toughness and the same save...plus as mentioned. It'll draw heavy fire.
Your opponents have 3 units of TWC coming to eat them yet they choose to kill your Long Fangs first? Strange.
I imagine that they shoot things like heavy bolters and assault cannons at the long fangs, and multi-wound guns at the TWC. That would be the most efficient thing to do, anyway, and you don't really want to ignore las cannons if you don't have to.
That being said I don't see the predator lasting much longer, but it will at least soak up a few D6 damage shots the TWC won't have to take.
The list looks fun as there are a lot of threats coming at the enemy pretty fast, but it is unfortunate you have so many drops, and probably go second most games. I wonder if you could find room for a couple rhinos for things to start the game in to minimize the drop count?
Weazel wrote: Anyone have any idea how the new points from Codex Space Marine work? Do we get to use the cheaper Predators and Power Fists from the C:SM or are we still using the Index points?
"We" Space Wolves players use the Index for everything except Primaris stuff which has a pdf thing with updated point costs and unit sizes. This is spelled out in the codex itself in specific language.
That's some awesome results.
I'd be interested to hear how that list goes against hoard lists like Guard, Hellspawn and Nids.
Funny how you can almost count SoB as a hoard list recently.
jcd386 wrote: I imagine that they shoot things like heavy bolters and assault cannons at the long fangs, and multi-wound guns at the TWC. That would be the most efficient thing to do, anyway, and you don't really want to ignore las cannons if you don't have to.
That being said I don't see the predator lasting much longer, but it will at least soak up a few D6 damage shots the TWC won't have to take.
The list looks fun as there are a lot of threats coming at the enemy pretty fast, but it is unfortunate you have so many drops, and probably go second most games. I wonder if you could find room for a couple rhinos for things to start the game in to minimize the drop count?
If I shoehorn a rhino in it means losing something. With that something probably being a terminator squad or the long fangs/predator.
The high drop count is a little annoying, but if my opponent moves forwards it means a potential turn one charge.
Kingzerno wrote: The 4+ invulnerable save on the wolf lord has made me consider dropping the shield and going dual claw, but I just can't bring myself to do it.
I've not faced a true horde army with the list yet (mainly because I'm the only one in my group that owns one). My hope would be the toughness of the wolves combined with a strong save would weather the attacks. I've yet to put this into practice though.
The predator is actually going in there for more survivability. My long fangs just don'd tend to see past turn one and for slightly less points I can replace them with a model that does roughly the same fire power, has more wounds, higher toughness and the same save...plus as mentioned. It'll draw heavy fire.
Your opponents have 3 units of TWC coming to eat them yet they choose to kill your Long Fangs first? Strange.
TWC aren't S10 pseudo monsters that Wulfen boost fourty two inches anymore, they move ten inches.
Sounds like most of this dude's opponents just aren't paniced by them because they aren't what they were in 7th.
Weazel wrote: Anyone have any idea how the new points from Codex Space Marine work? Do we get to use the cheaper Predators and Power Fists from the C:SM or are we still using the Index points?
"We" Space Wolves players use the Index for everything except Primaris stuff which has a pdf thing with updated point costs and unit sizes. This is spelled out in the codex itself in specific language.
Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves army lists in Index: Imperium 1 all let you use units from the Space Marines section of that book. If you own the new codex, you should feel free to use those same units’ Datasheets from that book instead, until your own codex comes out.
It doesn't mention anything about the points values for wargear but it seems clear to me that GW's intention is that the points values in the Codex override those in the Index seeing as the new Datasheets override the old ones.
Can I choose to use the rules and/or points for units from my index instead of the new ones in the codex once released?
In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.
In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets. It will also be assumed that you’re using the most up to date points for matched play, in this case, those included in the codex.
This, to me, makes it clear that the points in the Codex override the points in the Index.
Weazel wrote: Anyone have any idea how the new points from Codex Space Marine work? Do we get to use the cheaper Predators and Power Fists from the C:SM or are we still using the Index points?
"We" Space Wolves players use the Index for everything except Primaris stuff which has a pdf thing with updated point costs and unit sizes. This is spelled out in the codex itself in specific language.
Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves army lists in Index: Imperium 1 all let you use units from the Space Marines section of that book. If you own the new codex, you should feel free to use those same units’ Datasheets from that book instead, until your own codex comes out.
It doesn't mention anything about the points values for wargear but it seems clear to me that GW's intention is that the points values in the Codex override those in the Index seeing as the new Datasheets override the old ones.
Can I choose to use the rules and/or points for units from my index instead of the new ones in the codex once released?
In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.
In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets. It will also be assumed that you’re using the most up to date points for matched play, in this case, those included in the codex.
This, to me, makes it clear that the points in the Codex override the points in the Index.
I would agree, since the wargear lists from the index are overridden by the ones from the codex, same as the unit datasheets. Point costs as well. This is good news for all of the non-vanilla Marines (SW, DA, BA, and DW), as we can still compete even though we are still waiting for our own shiny new codexes.
Has anyone noticed that the new FAQs prevent TWC to be equipped with chainsword and storm shield? Since the storm shield can be taken only by replacing the chainsword and not the bolt pistol.
I hope it's going to be fixed soon, even the picture in the TWC box shows 2 out of 3 dudes with chainsword and storm shield!!
Blackie wrote: Has anyone noticed that the new FAQs prevent TWC to be equipped with chainsword and storm shield? Since the storm shield can be taken only by replacing the chainsword and not the bolt pistol.
I hope it's going to be fixed soon, even the picture in the TWC box shows 2 out of 3 dudes with chainsword and storm shield!!
The bolt pistol can be replaced by anb item from the melee weapon list, which has the chainsword on it.
That's pretty awesome. However I don't know how often you'd leave characters out in the open anyway. Although with Harald you can outflank and that pretty much leaves him in the open... Anyone used him? Seems kinda expensive even with his skills considered.
215 isn't particularly expensive for a Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf with a shield, axe and 2++ save against shooting, makes him pretty damn flexible.
Harold was a MONSTER in 7th ed - No reason he can't be the bane of troops in 8th.
Dakka Wolf wrote: 215 isn't particularly expensive for a Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf with a shield, axe and 2++ save against shooting, makes him pretty damn flexible.
Harold was a MONSTER in 7th ed - No reason he can't be the bane of troops in 8th.
He is 188 in my index. So an even bigger steal then?
Dakka Wolf wrote: 215 isn't particularly expensive for a Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf with a shield, axe and 2++ save against shooting, makes him pretty damn flexible.
Harold was a MONSTER in 7th ed - No reason he can't be the bane of troops in 8th.
He is 188 in my index. So an even bigger steal then?
He is AWESOME. I love him, personally. I also run a lot Death Wolves and a decent chunk of TWC and Grey Hunters in razorbacks to keep in theme with the Death Wolves though so I'm a little partial.
Harald just destroyed Mephiston in our friendly match today. But he and his 2*3 man TWC (all hammer and SS) were just terrible against vehicles (Razorback and Cybot).
I miss a ccw with that extra punch. I am so afraid of Lascannons with their D6dmg and even if I survive them and am able to fight in cc, it just feels bad. That sucks so much! XD
Comes to just under 1200 pts, so lots of room to work at 2K
Or it could be a nasty 1500 list
Thoughts on what to add? Likely need some anti-horde since 3x ML is about all I have, if I take Hellfrost I can put out a solid amount of unfocused S6
Maybe Twolf cav or WG-Bikes wiht SBs?
I'm also a fan of TDAWG so possibly a deepstrike component would be good.
I definitely want to get a few Iron Priests in there, one on a Twolf to chase the Melee Dreads around and heal them up, maybe one on foot to chill back with Bjorn and the fire-base.
3 Axe/Shield dreads seems a bit excessive, especially since thye can only do damage in melee. If you really want melee-focussed, maybe switch one out for Murderfang.
Assault Cannons are better than Hellfrost for anti-horde I think. WG Bikers with storm bolters are probably hard to beat as horde-control in terms of value for points. You could simply get a couple of empty Twin assault cannon Razorbacks since you don't have to buy any infantry to ride in them.
Dakka Wolf wrote: 215 isn't particularly expensive for a Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf with a shield, axe and 2++ save against shooting, makes him pretty damn flexible.
Harold was a MONSTER in 7th ed - No reason he can't be the bane of troops in 8th.
He is 188 in my index. So an even bigger steal then?
Are weapons included in Named Characters costs?
It is possible that I've paying for a second Frost Axe and Storm Shield.
Dakka Wolf wrote: 215 isn't particularly expensive for a Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf with a shield, axe and 2++ save against shooting, makes him pretty damn flexible.
Harold was a MONSTER in 7th ed - No reason he can't be the bane of troops in 8th.
He is 188 in my index. So an even bigger steal then?
Are weapons included in Named Characters costs?
It is possible that I've paying for a second Frost Axe and Storm Shield.
Yes, named characters outside of Bjorn have wargear included in cost.
Weazel wrote: Mantle of the Troll King: Add 1 to any (emphasis mine) saving throws you make for Harald Deathwolf against shooting attacks.
So wait, does he have 2++ against shooting?
Never noticed this,
By the Emperors Grace, he is filthy. 2+/2++ as bonuses now FAQ as able to affect your invul saves too.....or is it just cover saves?
Dakka Wolf wrote: 215 isn't particularly expensive for a Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf with a shield, axe and 2++ save against shooting, makes him pretty damn flexible.
Harold was a MONSTER in 7th ed - No reason he can't be the bane of troops in 8th.
He is 188 in my index. So an even bigger steal then?
Are weapons included in Named Characters costs?
It is possible that I've paying for a second Frost Axe and Storm Shield.
Yes, named characters outside of Bjorn have wargear included in cost.
Happy days.
We just found me about fifty extra points.
Haven't used him, don't own him and I kinda dislike the model anyway. But the consensus I believe is that he's too fragile on the sleigh (since W10+ can be singled out) and I tend to agree. Sure he has a 4++ but that only does so much. And the degrading speed isn't very tempting either. I'd love it if it were a transport that you could jump out of or something...
Yeah it would be cool if it was an open topped transport that could hold him and 1 other HQ, and when it dies he just dismounts and continues to fight.
Karhedron wrote: 3 Axe/Shield dreads seems a bit excessive, especially since thye can only do damage in melee. If you really want melee-focussed, maybe switch one out for Murderfang.
Assault Cannons are better than Hellfrost for anti-horde I think. WG Bikers with storm bolters are probably hard to beat as horde-control in terms of value for points. You could simply get a couple of empty Twin assault cannon Razorbacks since you don't have to buy any infantry to ride in them.
The single assault cannon seems like a waste of BS 2+, while the Frost gun can do lifting against vehicles and heavy infantry, though TLLC is probably the best option TBH.
Thinking of dropping down to 2x GA+SS Dreads and going with Long Fangs for HS, anyone have thoughts on 5x MLLF + TDAWG with Cyclone? Spits out 7 krak or frag per turn, always re-rolls 1's Just over 300 pts but seems nasty and can exploit cover to get a 1+ save for the TDAWG to tank with.
Long Fangs . Long Fang: Plasma cannon
. Long Fang: Plasma cannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Missile launcher
. Long Fang Pack Leader: Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
Looks pretty solid although I am not convinced about the Reivers either. I would be tempted to look around and see if you can find the points to upgrade your Rune Priest to Njal. He gets pretty good bonuses for a fairly modest points premium over the stock Rune Priest.
Maybe downgrade the Wolf Lord to a WGBL. You already have the rerolling 1s to Hut from Bjorn and your Long Fangs can get the same bonus from concentrating their fire. A WGBL will allow you to stack the rerolls to wound as well and save you a few points into the bargain.
Sisters of Battle - I'm struggling with the Bolter Broads.
My Space Wolves have fewer problems than most Marine armies due to easy access to Storm Shields but when backed by Celestine the Sisters have enough mobility to stop right in front of my line of Bikers and enough range to shoot straight over the top and destroy my vehicles, especially on the Dawn of War field setup.
Has anybody had any success in containing the Sisters and their Saint when they get first turn?
List that lost 1/3 of points on first turn
Battalion
HQ Harold
Bjorn
Iron Priest
Troops
Grey Hunters
Grey Hunters
Grey Hunters
Razorback
Fast Attack
TWC
Elites
Shield Dread
Vanguard
HQ Iron Priest
Elites
Ven Dread
Wolf Scouts
WG Bikers
The Sisters covered at least twenty-four inches with some double act of faith nonsense and the normal Sisters stopped an inch away from my bikers, Celestine and her groupies jumped over the top. Positions achieved the Bolters, some kind of blessed Meltas and Flamers started shooting, the Ven Dread, a unit of Grey Hunters and the Razorback bit the dirt along with a half of the Grey Hunters who were onboard and the Irin Priest nearby when it went boom.
Celestine charged the Shield Dread and by extension Bjorn and managed to off Bjorn on the first turn and kill the Shield Dread two turns later and all this time a pair of Basilisks and some other Guard/Sisters ranged tanks that I'm not familiar with rained hell on my forces.
Harold offed Celestine and the Scouts managed to lock down the two Basilisks by about turn four but by that point Harold and the Scouts were kind of all I had left.
Potential list change.
Battalion
HQ Harold
Bjorn
Iron Priest
Karhedron wrote: Looks pretty solid although I am not convinced about the Reivers either. I would be tempted to look around and see if you can find the points to upgrade your Rune Priest to Njal. He gets pretty good bonuses for a fairly modest points premium over the stock Rune Priest.
Maybe downgrade the Wolf Lord to a WGBL. You already have the rerolling 1s to Hut from Bjorn and your Long Fangs can get the same bonus from concentrating their fire. A WGBL will allow you to stack the rerolls to wound as well and save you a few points into the bargain.
Reivers are a bit hit and miss, i'v played a couple of games with them and theyv done all right but not spectacular. I mainly use them as midfield objective holders or to harass the flanks. oh and their models are prity badass :p any ideas what I could replace them with?
Njal dose have some prity sweet bonuses but I have no idea how I can fit him in. If I make the wolf lord into a WGBL with the same load out and drop the reivers I can do it but iv then got 63 points left and I can't realy think of anything to spend them on.
Is there any chance I could get a quick idea of the good/bad units the wolves have atm? I don't have time to go through 14 odd pages atm, uni has me flat out.
Klowny wrote: Is there any chance I could get a quick idea of the good/bad units the wolves have atm? I don't have time to go through 14 odd pages atm, uni has me flat out.
I'll start this by saying that for the longest time our internal balance is actually at a very good level. We don't have any obvious must-picks nor anything you should avoid like the plague.
If you run a lot of CC, especially TWC you want to have a Wolf Priest around. Rerolling hits in CC is soooo good. The healing is pretty situational at best and he isn't a melee beatstick but the reroll aura is MVP stuff.
If you like to run Wolf Guard in general (TWC are WG as well), getting Arjac in the middle of the action is a good plan. Terminators are okay in general, but they really need a Land Raider Crusader (which is awesome I might add) to ensure they make it into CC intact. Deep striking them and not making the charge (which is likely) is not a good use of their points.
TWC are good, but by no means the powerhouse they were in previous editions. And with them you really want to get the charge. Losing one or even two of them before getting to attack is a big deal.
Wolf Guard bikers with Stormbolters (and cheap Stormshields for survivability) are a solid horde-shredding choice. Although you need finesse with them, the really need to be in rapid-fire range to get the most out of them but that makes them very susceptible to getting charged which will shut down their shooting for at least a turn (unless they manage to kill the chargers somehow which is unlikely).
An Axe Dread is a steal for its points but you probably want to run at least two. Bjorn is fine I guess, haven't used him enough to really see his potential yet.
Our troops are pretty average, but Grey Hunters backed by some Razorbacks are solid midfield contesters. Still haven't actually run any Blood Claws in lists, but I guess they are alright. You definitely want to get the charge with these guys so a transport is probably necessary to make them work.
Long Fangs are solid fire support, I always take at least one pack (usually with Lascannons).
If you want to hang back and shoot stuff to pieces instead of maiming them in melee, a Rune Priest (why not even Njal) with Storm Caller is a solid boost to survivability. But I'd say a Wolf Priest is more important in a melee-focused list. I tend to make my saves but can't seriously hit for s*it.. but YMMV.
I think that's almost all the units I've used thus far. HTH.
Pure wolves, with no primaris or other imperium stuff are mid tiers. They have several viable options, nothing overpowered. SW won't win an official tournament any time soon but in a semi-competitive friendly meta they are more than ok, a solid army overall.
Is a wolf priest better than a WGBL if running TWC and wulfen?
Also, I posted a list in the list section, and some people seem to think wulfen can ride in any transport due to having the chapter and infantry keywords, and not actually seeing where it disallows them in the transports? I assumed only the ones that say that wulfen can ride in them in their transport capacity would be the ones they could ride in? I dont have the index yet.
Klowny wrote: Is a wolf priest better than a WGBL if running TWC and wulfen?
Also, I posted a list in the list section, and some people seem to think wulfen can ride in any transport due to having the chapter and infantry keywords, and not actually seeing where it disallows them in the transports? I assumed only the ones that say that wulfen can ride in them in their transport capacity would be the ones they could ride in? I dont have the index yet.
If you can't take both, I'd say Wolf Priest is more valuable especially if you spread his buff to multiple units. Take a Jump Pack or Bike to keep him up with the units. I like the Jump Pack because you can position more freely (jump over units etc) and disengage from fights to go heal. But like I said earlier, he's not a CC beatstick so I probably wouldn't charge in against elite CC units if you can't kill them all in a single phase. He can die to a couple of PF/TH wounds.
Wulfen can only be transported by Land Raiders and the Stormwolf (and Stormfang, but you can't fit a minimum pack inside).
Klowny wrote: Is a wolf priest better than a WGBL if running TWC and wulfen?
With those 2 units, the Priest is definitely better. They are both multi-wound units so he can heal them. They both have awesome CC attacks which means they will benefit more from rerolling all failed hits in CC then they will from just rerolling 1s to wound.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Weazel wrote: Bjorn is fine I guess, haven't used him enough to really see his potential yet.
I have and I can honestly say that Bjorn is brutal, he ripped a Wraithknight in half in my last game with him. He is great for lead Hellblasters and/or plasma Hunters up the field. With a little careful positioning of surrounding units, he is very hard to shoot until you unleash him combat.
Weazel wrote: Our troops are pretty average, but Grey Hunters backed by some Razorbacks are solid midfield contesters.
Long Fangs are solid fire support, I always take at least one pack (usually with Lascannons).
Hunters are pretty good. They have more access to special weapons than Tac squads and 1 extra point for chainswords gives them a bit of an edge in assault.
Long Fangs are very good, I quite like some Plasma Cannons in there personally as they can reroll 1s without a Wolf Lord nearby to hold their hands.
Dakka Wolf wrote: List that lost 1/3 of points on first turn
Battalion
HQ Harold
Bjorn
Iron Priest
Troops
Grey Hunters
Grey Hunters
Grey Hunters
Razorback
Fast Attack
TWC
Elites
Shield Dread
Vanguard
HQ Iron Priest
Elites
Ven Dread
Wolf Scouts
WG Bikers
The Sisters covered at least twenty-four inches with some double act of faith nonsense and the normal Sisters stopped an inch away from my bikers, Celestine and her groupies jumped over the top. Positions achieved the Bolters, some kind of blessed Meltas and Flamers started shooting, the Ven Dread, a unit of Grey Hunters and the Razorback bit the dirt along with a half of the Grey Hunters who were onboard and the Irin Priest nearby when it went boom.
Celestine charged the Shield Dread and by extension Bjorn and managed to off Bjorn on the first turn and kill the Shield Dread two turns later and all this time a pair of Basilisks and some other Guard/Sisters ranged tanks that I'm not familiar with rained hell on my forces.
Harold offed Celestine and the Scouts managed to lock down the two Basilisks by about turn four but by that point Harold and the Scouts were kind of all I had left.
Potential list change.
Battalion
HQ Harold
Bjorn
Iron Priest
Troops
Grey Hunters
Grey Hunters
Grey Hunters
Shield Dread
Wolf Scouts
Vanguard
HQ Iron Priest
Elites
WG Bikers
WG Bikers
Shield Dread
Focusing more on the second list, I think it is too elite, in that once you start losing units, you start losing a lot of killing power. This is going to matter less vs long range shooty lists, since they can shoot whatever they want no matter what you have in your list, but against short range deepstrikers or very fast assault lists like sisters or nids, you don't have very much to slow them down, or get in the way of their charging units and your damage dealers. The nature of 8th is such as that it doesn't really matter how good a unit is in combat, if it gets charged by another melee focused unit, it is probably going to die when they swing first. Elite lists with a lot of invuls like this also tend to be susceptible to lots of lower str attacks, as you just have to force the rolls of 1s and 2s to kill things, and typically close combat or at least short range is the best way to get a lot of dice rolling.
For some nitpicks:
I don't think having two 145 point dreads backed by two 117 point iron priests makes a ton of sense. I would drop a priest and either try to make it 3 dreads, or put the points somewhere else.
I don't feel like your grey hunters are apt to do much without a transport. I'd either dump them entirely, or give them a rhino to hide and move around in (the rhino can also be used for blocking, see below).
I would put 150ish points into cheap units (BCs, Scouts, Fen Wolves rhinos) you don't mind dying, with the sole intention of deploying them in such a way so that the enemy can't easily get past them to your good stuff on their first turn. This will help with deepstrikers and fast assault armies.
I think you need more sources of D6 damage in the list. 1-2 units of long fangs would be nice IMO.
1750 is such a weird points value to play at, lol. I find 2k is way easier to make a balanced list and still only about the size of a 1850 list in 7th.
Klowny wrote: Is a wolf priest better than a WGBL if running TWC and wulfen?
With those 2 units, the Priest is definitely better. They are both multi-wound units so he can heal them. They both have awesome CC attacks which means they will benefit more from rerolling all failed hits in CC then they will from just rerolling 1s to wound.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Weazel wrote: Bjorn is fine I guess, haven't used him enough to really see his potential yet.
I have and I can honestly say that Bjorn is brutal, he ripped a Wraithknight in half in my last game with him. He is great for lead Hellblasters and/or plasma Hunters up the field. With a little careful positioning of surrounding units, he is very hard to shoot until you unleash him combat.
Weazel wrote: Our troops are pretty average, but Grey Hunters backed by some Razorbacks are solid midfield contesters.
Long Fangs are solid fire support, I always take at least one pack (usually with Lascannons).
Hunters are pretty good. They have more access to special weapons than Tac squads and 1 extra point for chainswords gives them a bit of an edge in assault.
Long Fangs are very good, I quite like some Plasma Cannons in there personally as they can reroll 1s without a Wolf Lord nearby to hold their hands.
I would say that the only time it's worth bringing a wolf priest is with Wulfen and and TWC, and I would probably only think it's worth it if you have them as a focus of your army. The bringing models back is too fickle, though healing wounded ones is pretty nice.
For a list with a lot of shooting in the front lines (razorbacks, GHs) a Lord / WGBL combo is better for basic attacks than just having a Wolf Priest in close combat, and it effects shooting too.
Long fangs are the best at plasma cannons, but i dont think it fixes how bad plasma cannons are. I like missiles or las, with a WGBL to buff them.
Dakka Wolf wrote: List that lost 1/3 of points on first turn
Battalion
HQ Harold
Bjorn
Iron Priest
Troops
Grey Hunters
Grey Hunters
Grey Hunters
Razorback
Fast Attack
TWC
Elites
Shield Dread
Vanguard
HQ Iron Priest
Elites
Ven Dread
Wolf Scouts
WG Bikers
The Sisters covered at least twenty-four inches with some double act of faith nonsense and the normal Sisters stopped an inch away from my bikers, Celestine and her groupies jumped over the top. Positions achieved the Bolters, some kind of blessed Meltas and Flamers started shooting, the Ven Dread, a unit of Grey Hunters and the Razorback bit the dirt along with a half of the Grey Hunters who were onboard and the Irin Priest nearby when it went boom.
Celestine charged the Shield Dread and by extension Bjorn and managed to off Bjorn on the first turn and kill the Shield Dread two turns later and all this time a pair of Basilisks and some other Guard/Sisters ranged tanks that I'm not familiar with rained hell on my forces.
Harold offed Celestine and the Scouts managed to lock down the two Basilisks by about turn four but by that point Harold and the Scouts were kind of all I had left.
Potential list change.
Battalion
HQ Harold
Bjorn
Iron Priest
Troops
Grey Hunters
Grey Hunters
Grey Hunters
Shield Dread
Wolf Scouts
Vanguard
HQ Iron Priest
Elites
WG Bikers
WG Bikers
Shield Dread
Focusing more on the second list, I think it is too elite, in that once you start losing units, you start losing a lot of killing power. This is going to matter less vs long range shooty lists, since they can shoot whatever they want no matter what you have in your list, but against short range deepstrikers or very fast assault lists like sisters or nids, you don't have very much to slow them down, or get in the way of their charging units and your damage dealers. The nature of 8th is such as that it doesn't really matter how good a unit is in combat, if it gets charged by another melee focused unit, it is probably going to die when they swing first. Elite lists with a lot of invuls like this also tend to be susceptible to lots of lower str attacks, as you just have to force the rolls of 1s and 2s to kill things, and typically close combat or at least short range is the best way to get a lot of dice rolling.
For some nitpicks:
I don't think having two 145 point dreads backed by two 117 point iron priests makes a ton of sense. I would drop a priest and either try to make it 3 dreads, or put the points somewhere else.
I don't feel like your grey hunters are apt to do much without a transport. I'd either dump them entirely, or give them a rhino to hide and move around in (the rhino can also be used for blocking, see below).
I would put 150ish points into cheap units (BCs, Scouts, Fen Wolves rhinos) you don't mind dying, with the sole intention of deploying them in such a way so that the enemy can't easily get past them to your good stuff on their first turn. This will help with deepstrikers and fast assault armies.
I think you need more sources of D6 damage in the list. 1-2 units of long fangs would be nice IMO.
1750 is such a weird points value to play at, lol. I find 2k is way easier to make a balanced list and still only about the size of a 1850 list in 7th.
1850 is the local tourney scene's thing so 1850 is the standard for the FLGS where I play. There's probably an army that benefits from that particular and oddball points level but at a guess most don't which is why it is the preferred amount.
I remember a television show -
"Are you happy?"
"No - are you happy?"
"No"
"DEAL!"
There are three Dreads being covered by the two Iron Priests.
Bjorn the Fell-Handed sticks with the Ven pair and Iron Priests, problem is I find myself wanting more firepower and the Dreads themselves drawing less firepower when I have two Shield Vens and wanting another shield when I have one Shield Ven and one Shootie Ven...possibly means two Shield Vens are better.
On the troops, yeah, maybe I should cut the third squad of Grey Hunters back to Blood Claws and cull some points from around to nab a Rhino. Too elite is possible but what would you suggest? It's not like Fen Wolves are much use and I'm not keen on grabbing Guard just to have more bodies.
Could probably carve out a squad of WG Bikers to nab some Long Fangs and Las Canons, I'd really have to figure out what the final group of Bikers will be though, the very thing that makes them monsters against most armies makes them pathetic against the Sisters and Genestealer Cult.
Dakka Wolf wrote: List that lost 1/3 of points on first turn
Battalion
HQ Harold
Bjorn
Iron Priest
Troops
Grey Hunters
Grey Hunters
Grey Hunters
Razorback
Fast Attack
TWC
Elites
Shield Dread
Vanguard
HQ Iron Priest
Elites
Ven Dread
Wolf Scouts
WG Bikers
The Sisters covered at least twenty-four inches with some double act of faith nonsense and the normal Sisters stopped an inch away from my bikers, Celestine and her groupies jumped over the top. Positions achieved the Bolters, some kind of blessed Meltas and Flamers started shooting, the Ven Dread, a unit of Grey Hunters and the Razorback bit the dirt along with a half of the Grey Hunters who were onboard and the Irin Priest nearby when it went boom.
Celestine charged the Shield Dread and by extension Bjorn and managed to off Bjorn on the first turn and kill the Shield Dread two turns later and all this time a pair of Basilisks and some other Guard/Sisters ranged tanks that I'm not familiar with rained hell on my forces.
Harold offed Celestine and the Scouts managed to lock down the two Basilisks by about turn four but by that point Harold and the Scouts were kind of all I had left.
Potential list change.
Battalion
HQ Harold
Bjorn
Iron Priest
Troops
Grey Hunters
Grey Hunters
Grey Hunters
Shield Dread
Wolf Scouts
Vanguard
HQ Iron Priest
Elites
WG Bikers
WG Bikers
Shield Dread
Focusing more on the second list, I think it is too elite, in that once you start losing units, you start losing a lot of killing power. This is going to matter less vs long range shooty lists, since they can shoot whatever they want no matter what you have in your list, but against short range deepstrikers or very fast assault lists like sisters or nids, you don't have very much to slow them down, or get in the way of their charging units and your damage dealers. The nature of 8th is such as that it doesn't really matter how good a unit is in combat, if it gets charged by another melee focused unit, it is probably going to die when they swing first. Elite lists with a lot of invuls like this also tend to be susceptible to lots of lower str attacks, as you just have to force the rolls of 1s and 2s to kill things, and typically close combat or at least short range is the best way to get a lot of dice rolling.
For some nitpicks:
I don't think having two 145 point dreads backed by two 117 point iron priests makes a ton of sense. I would drop a priest and either try to make it 3 dreads, or put the points somewhere else.
I don't feel like your grey hunters are apt to do much without a transport. I'd either dump them entirely, or give them a rhino to hide and move around in (the rhino can also be used for blocking, see below).
I would put 150ish points into cheap units (BCs, Scouts, Fen Wolves rhinos) you don't mind dying, with the sole intention of deploying them in such a way so that the enemy can't easily get past them to your good stuff on their first turn. This will help with deepstrikers and fast assault armies.
I think you need more sources of D6 damage in the list. 1-2 units of long fangs would be nice IMO.
1750 is such a weird points value to play at, lol. I find 2k is way easier to make a balanced list and still only about the size of a 1850 list in 7th.
Klowny wrote: Is a wolf priest better than a WGBL if running TWC and wulfen?
With those 2 units, the Priest is definitely better. They are both multi-wound units so he can heal them. They both have awesome CC attacks which means they will benefit more from rerolling all failed hits in CC then they will from just rerolling 1s to wound.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Weazel wrote: Bjorn is fine I guess, haven't used him enough to really see his potential yet.
I have and I can honestly say that Bjorn is brutal, he ripped a Wraithknight in half in my last game with him. He is great for lead Hellblasters and/or plasma Hunters up the field. With a little careful positioning of surrounding units, he is very hard to shoot until you unleash him combat.
Weazel wrote: Our troops are pretty average, but Grey Hunters backed by some Razorbacks are solid midfield contesters.
Long Fangs are solid fire support, I always take at least one pack (usually with Lascannons).
Hunters are pretty good. They have more access to special weapons than Tac squads and 1 extra point for chainswords gives them a bit of an edge in assault.
Long Fangs are very good, I quite like some Plasma Cannons in there personally as they can reroll 1s without a Wolf Lord nearby to hold their hands.
I would say that the only time it's worth bringing a wolf priest is with Wulfen and and TWC, and I would probably only think it's worth it if you have them as a focus of your army. The bringing models back is too fickle, though healing wounded ones is pretty nice.
For a list with a lot of shooting in the front lines (razorbacks, GHs) a Lord / WGBL combo is better for basic attacks than just having a Wolf Priest in close combat, and it effects shooting too.
Long fangs are the best at plasma cannons, but i dont think it fixes how bad plasma cannons are. I like missiles or las, with a WGBL to buff them.
Wolf Priests can't bring back lost units though, correct? Or was that errated?
i have skimmed over most of this article but it is a nice tome of info so if my question was answered. i am sorry i missed it and can you please point me to the section.
I have a 5th ed Wolf termie army. was a lot of fun marching across the field guns blazing till locked in combat. i know it wasnt like uber competitive but it won.
6th and 7th really penalized saves and foot slog. is 8th any better? is it worth coming back to the game with what i have?
i can filed 40 Temies. Grimm and the main caster guy..so sad cant recall his name right now.
Mali wrote: i have skimmed over most of this article but it is a nice tome of info so if my question was answered. i am sorry i missed it and can you please point me to the section.
I have a 5th ed Wolf termie army. was a lot of fun marching across the field guns blazing till locked in combat. i know it wasnt like uber competitive but it won.
6th and 7th really penalized saves and foot slog. is 8th any better? is it worth coming back to the game with what i have?
i can filed 40 Temies. Grimm and the main caster guy..so sad cant recall his name right now.
Thanks
I personally feel this edition has been the best the game has been in a long time and is worth coming back to play. You can absolutely field what you have I'm just not sure how competitive it would be. Terminators are better but not good at foot slogging. You could do a mix of teleporting in and foot slogging though.
Is Canis Wolfborn a good choice for TWC-heavy lists? Reading his abilities it seems like he's solid, but is he really worth his points? I've got his model and some TWC, and I've been trying to figure out how to make them all work together well. From recent discussions in this thread it looks like I might want to get a Wolf Priest as well for those rerolls.
I have a question for you guys about wulfen. I just picked up a box of 5 for 25$ and am trying to figure out what the best load out for these guys are.
Option 1: 4 with thunder hammer and storm shields, 1 with frost claws
Option 2 : 2 with th and ss, 3 with great axe
Option 3 : a mix of the 2, 2 with th and ss, 2 with great axes, 1 with frost claws
I am thinking of the first option for a big monster Hunter, how can you not love s10 hits and a 3++ save? But I also see s8 being just as good as s10 and having better luck hitting and s6 with those claws and all those attacks as nasty. So thoughts would be helpful for 8th ed.
(Yes there will be a wolf priest with jump pack around to help as well)
it was brought up a while ago, but I've had good success with Grimnar on a sleigh. He is super fragile but with some command points he usually lives, he's fast, and the wolves attacks are nice, and the fact that he has a non degrading primary attack is also really nice.
Azuza001 wrote: I have a question for you guys about wulfen. I just picked up a box of 5 for 25$ and am trying to figure out what the best load out for these guys are.
Option 1: 4 with thunder hammer and storm shields, 1 with frost claws
Option 2 : 2 with th and ss, 3 with great axe
Option 3 : a mix of the 2, 2 with th and ss, 2 with great axes, 1 with frost claws
I am thinking of the first option for a big monster Hunter, how can you not love s10 hits and a 3++ save? But I also see s8 being just as good as s10 and having better luck hitting and s6 with those claws and all those attacks as nasty. So thoughts would be helpful for 8th ed.
(Yes there will be a wolf priest with jump pack around to help as well)
I use to play wulfen as big things hunters, as they have lots of attacks at high strenght and even if they die they can attack once again, TWC and terminators can't really have that number of S8-10 attacks with the same points. But a full TH/SS unit is too expensive, and a leader with claws is mandatory with the new rules. That's why I usually field them with the following loadout: 2 TH/SS, 2 axes and the leader. The axes are actually quite good against high T enemies and cheaper than the TH/SS combo. I've magnetized them but never bothered with claws since I never charge troops with wulfen.
Azuza001 wrote: I have a question for you guys about wulfen. I just picked up a box of 5 for 25$ and am trying to figure out what the best load out for these guys are.
Option 1: 4 with thunder hammer and storm shields, 1 with frost claws
Option 2 : 2 with th and ss, 3 with great axe
Option 3 : a mix of the 2, 2 with th and ss, 2 with great axes, 1 with frost claws
I am thinking of the first option for a big monster Hunter, how can you not love s10 hits and a 3++ save? But I also see s8 being just as good as s10 and having better luck hitting and s6 with those claws and all those attacks as nasty. So thoughts would be helpful for 8th ed.
(Yes there will be a wolf priest with jump pack around to help as well)
I use to play wulfen as big things hunters, as they have lots of attacks at high strenght and even if they die they can attack once again, TWC and terminators can't really have that number of S8-10 attacks with the same points. But a full TH/SS unit is too expensive, and a leader with claws is mandatory with the new rules. That's why I usually field them with the following loadout: 2 TH/SS, 2 axes and the leader. The axes are actually quite good against high T enemies and cheaper than the TH/SS combo. I've magnetized them but never bothered with claws since I never charge troops with wulfen.
That's the way it's written in the index. Leader comes with frost claws. Rest armed with wulfen claws. You can upgrade any wulfen to storm shield / thunder hammer, or frost claws, or great axe. But the leader just gets what he starts with, no upgrade options. :p
I mean I am OK with this, putting the frost claws on him makes the most sense to me if I was going to take frost claws, and I was going to take 1 model with them so yeah.
No clue. I doubt this year honestly. Even as a wolf player I think eldar / orks / tyrnaids should get their codexes before us. Not that my opinion matters lol.
Early rumours of Imperium&Chaos this year, Xenos next year are panning out thus far. So I'm guessing an October/November release. No new models, just a book.
Well they just announced 3 more codexes so 8/10 are known for this year. Which leaves "about" 2 that can be any codexes at this point, since none of the initial rumors seem to be panning out after all.
I don't think it will come this year. Way back when Hastings first mentioned the return of the Primarchs, he named Magnus, Mortarion, Roboute and Russ. So I expect a major release alongside our Codex. Another hint is the blurp about Freki and Geri in the new White Dwarf: their current fate is unknown
Ragnar69 wrote: I don't think it will come this year. Way back when Hastings first mentioned the return of the Primarchs, he named Magnus, Mortarion, Roboute and Russ. So I expect a major release alongside our Codex. Another hint is the blurp about Freki and Geri in the new White Dwarf: their current fate is unknown
Ten thousand year old wolves.
Probably chased Magnus and the boys into the Warp, then again, we don't really know the age of Santa Claws' mutts either, Thunderwolves could be stupidly long-lived.
Oh boy, I'm not really putting much trust into Russ returning. However they have left his fate rather vague so fluffwise it's definitely a possibility.
I don't think my wallet nor schedule can handle a big release for SW.
Hey guys, I'm almost finished building an Achillies LR and wanted your opinions on what to stuff in there?
It's a fantastic line-breaker and with most of the guns having 24" range I see it zipping into the mid/back-field in most games.
The main issue is that it only has a transport capacity of 6 so Wulfen and TDWAG are out. Maybe a squad of PAWG with combi-plas and a few CC weapons, or a small group of Lone Wolves in PA?
Ragnar69 wrote: I don't think it will come this year. Way back when Hastings first mentioned the return of the Primarchs, he named Magnus, Mortarion, Roboute and Russ. So I expect a major release alongside our Codex. Another hint is the blurp about Freki and Geri in the new White Dwarf: their current fate is unknown
Assuming you are right, I would hazard a guess that we might see Russ and our new Codex around Spring next year. Mortarion seems to be taking the same Pre-Christmas slot as Magnus took last year so it is not unreasonable to guess that Russ will come out at the same time RG did this year.
Assuming of course that GW stick to a pattern of releasing 1 loyalist Primarch each spring and 1 traitor each autumn. 3 Models is a rather small sample size to extrapolate a pattern from.
Wolf Guard [18 PL, 158pts] . Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Wolf claw
. Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Wolf claw
. Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Wolf claw
. Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Storm bolter, Wolf claw
Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour [15 PL, 280pts] . Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader in Terminator Armour: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
Wolf Guard on Bikes [14 PL, 215pts] . Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike Pack Leader: Chainsword, Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
+ Heavy Support +
Long Fangs [11 PL, 302pts] . Long Fang: Missile launcher
. Long Fang: Missile launcher
. Long Fang: Missile launcher
. Long Fang: Missile launcher
. Long Fang: Missile launcher
. Long Fang Pack Leader: Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader in Terminator Armour: Power sword
. . Cyclone missile launcher and storm bolter: Cyclone missile launcher, Storm bolter
Looks pretty good but you may struggle against armoured opponents. I looks like your guns max out at AP-2 with no lascannons or plasma weapons.
I would be tempted to replace the Wolf Lord or WGBL with a Wolf Priest in TDA (or at least with a jump pack) to accompany Arjac and his shield brothers. Rerolls to hit are fantastic with Thunder Hammers and the ability to patch up wounded WG makes him a valuable force multiplier.
I like having the wolf loads and wgbl together for the rerolls to hit and wound. debating on changing long fangs to Las and dropping the wgpl to add plasma to the gh. something like this.
Wolf Guard [18 PL, 168pts] . Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Wolf claw
. Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Wolf claw
. Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Wolf claw
. Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Wolf claw
. Wolf Guard: Storm bolter, Wolf claw
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader: Storm bolter, Wolf claw
Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour [15 PL, 274pts] . Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour: Storm bolter, Thunder hammer
. Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour: Storm bolter, Thunder hammer
. Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader in Terminator Armour: Storm shield, Thunder hammer
Wolf Guard on Bikes [28 PL, 279pts] . Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Storm bolter, Storm shield
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Chainsword, Storm bolter
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike: Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
. Wolf Guard on Bike Pack Leader: Bolt Pistol, Chainsword, Storm bolter
. . Bike: Twin boltgun
+ Heavy Support +
Long Fangs [8 PL, 215pts] . Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang: Lascannon
. Long Fang Pack Leader: Boltgun and Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
Legitimate question:
How are Space Wolves faring right now? Because I can't for the life of me figure out how they're supposed to hold a candle to Space Marines in any significant way.
There's only a handful of units that we've got that are even viable in a direct comparison sense. Since we don't have Chapter Tactics or anything resembling it, all 'Direct analogues' are out. Grey Hunters get an extra attack for 1pt, but Space Marines are generally bad in close combat, so that's not helpful. Regular bikers are actually *cheaper* than Swiftclaws, and Assault marines are tied for cost with Swiftclaws. Our Terminators are technically more versatile, but also drastically more expensive.
The only things that I'd consider taking, then, are things that don't have comparable units: Wulfen, Thunderwolves, and... Rune Priests, I guess, since they have different powers. (Actually, I'm a huge fan of the three powers we've got - A powerful defensive buff, a powerful offensive debuff, and a Smite clone that actually feels like it has a unique niche and works as an alternative to Smite rather than an inferior copy. (Try throwing Jaws on some Cataphractii Terminators and you'll see what I mean.)
Wulfen got hit hard with the Nerf Bat, increasing in cost, staying at 2w when other 2w models got bumped up to 3, losing any kind of 'Rage' ability, and getting generally slightly weaker weapons. We still have a radius buff, but it's self-defeating because we lose the more powerful buff (+1 attack) if we're in range of the far weaker one (re-roll charges), so we want to somehow start the Wulfen far away, then end everyone's charges within 6", which leads to convoluted, messy placement that defeats any advantage you're getting from the buff.
Thunderwolf Cavalry, similarly, got hit hard with a nerf bat. While technically there's an increase in number of attacks, those bonus attacks can only use a weaker profile, and the 'strong' attacks that actually use the rider's melee weapons only get to swing twice and no longer get S5 as a base. TWolves can still work moderately well as a horde clearing squad, going with Double Chainswords or maybe Maul+Chainsword to get maximum volume of attacks, but that's about the only build I see being worth the points on them.
(Incidentally, without access to SuperFriends Psychic Powers, neither of these units needed nerfing, but that's neither here nor there.)
The Stormfang/Stormwolf both seem pretty good. If anything, it's actually a reasonably viable alternative to the Stormraven - A slight bump in cost either nets you 5" extra movement and a bit more anti tank firepower (with good anti-heavy-infantry firepower but less anti-light-infantry firepower) or else a larger bump in firepower at the cost of some transport capacity. Also, considering that Stormravens don't get Chapter Tactics, we aren't losing out on that front.
So... What am I missing? Or am I correct, and the only thing Space Wolves might remotely be able to compare to is Stormraven spam, and even then not against horde armies.
SM are overpowered even if there are some people that consider tacticals the wors troop in the game. Regular SM always have been better than SW at super competitive levels.
SW are a mid tier army at the moment, in 7th they had some top tier lists with other imperium allies like celestine or SM biker pskyers, but pure wolves didn't win tournaments.
Waaaghpower wrote: Legitimate question:
How are Space Wolves faring right now? Because I can't for the life of me figure out how they're supposed to hold a candle to Space Marines in any significant way.
There's only a handful of units that we've got that are even viable in a direct comparison sense. Since we don't have Chapter Tactics or anything resembling it, all 'Direct analogues' are out. Grey Hunters get an extra attack for 1pt, but Space Marines are generally bad in close combat, so that's not helpful. Regular bikers are actually *cheaper* than Swiftclaws, and Assault marines are tied for cost with Swiftclaws. Our Terminators are technically more versatile, but also drastically more expensive.
The only things that I'd consider taking, then, are things that don't have comparable units: Wulfen, Thunderwolves, and... Rune Priests, I guess, since they have different powers. (Actually, I'm a huge fan of the three powers we've got - A powerful defensive buff, a powerful offensive debuff, and a Smite clone that actually feels like it has a unique niche and works as an alternative to Smite rather than an inferior copy. (Try throwing Jaws on some Cataphractii Terminators and you'll see what I mean.)
Wulfen got hit hard with the Nerf Bat, increasing in cost, staying at 2w when other 2w models got bumped up to 3, losing any kind of 'Rage' ability, and getting generally slightly weaker weapons. We still have a radius buff, but it's self-defeating because we lose the more powerful buff (+1 attack) if we're in range of the far weaker one (re-roll charges), so we want to somehow start the Wulfen far away, then end everyone's charges within 6", which leads to convoluted, messy placement that defeats any advantage you're getting from the buff.
Thunderwolf Cavalry, similarly, got hit hard with a nerf bat. While technically there's an increase in number of attacks, those bonus attacks can only use a weaker profile, and the 'strong' attacks that actually use the rider's melee weapons only get to swing twice and no longer get S5 as a base. TWolves can still work moderately well as a horde clearing squad, going with Double Chainswords or maybe Maul+Chainsword to get maximum volume of attacks, but that's about the only build I see being worth the points on them.
(Incidentally, without access to SuperFriends Psychic Powers, neither of these units needed nerfing, but that's neither here nor there.)
The Stormfang/Stormwolf both seem pretty good. If anything, it's actually a reasonably viable alternative to the Stormraven - A slight bump in cost either nets you 5" extra movement and a bit more anti tank firepower (with good anti-heavy-infantry firepower but less anti-light-infantry firepower) or else a larger bump in firepower at the cost of some transport capacity. Also, considering that Stormravens don't get Chapter Tactics, we aren't losing out on that front.
So... What am I missing? Or am I correct, and the only thing Space Wolves might remotely be able to compare to is Stormraven spam, and even then not against horde armies.
Well couple of things.
Grey Hunters get +1A (chainsword) for 0pts, not 1pt.
Wulfen gained a 5++ FNP, meaning they are close to 3W, and with great rolling they are 4W. Also I think you have misunderstood their auras. You cannot benefit from +1A if you have benefited from rerolling a charge. Meaning if you didn't reroll your charge you didn't "use up" that aura and you get your +1A. And if you make the charge after a re-roll I guess that is infinitely better than gaining +1A while standing in the middle of a field unengaged...
Thunderwolves got their well-deserved nerf. Nobody likes auto-pick units. They are still pretty decent, just not the absolute powerhouses they were before. Just deal with it.
Overall I think the internal balance is pretty good, however we need our chapter tactics equivalent and stratagems to really get back in the game. We're still more than playable but just don't expect to break any balls before getting our Codex or Chapter Approved update (whichever comes first).
Grey Hunters get +1A (chainsword) for 0pts, not 1pt.
You're semantically correct, but in effect... No. Grey Hunters are 14ppm a model. Tacticals are 13ppm. Grey Hunters are paying 1ppm for that chainsword in everything but name.
Wulfen gained a 5++ FNP, meaning they are close to 3W, and with great rolling they are 4W. Also I think you have misunderstood their auras. You cannot benefit from +1A if you have benefited from rerolling a charge. Meaning if you didn't reroll your charge you didn't "use up" that aura and you get your +1A. And if you make the charge after a re-roll I guess that is infinitely better than gaining +1A while standing in the middle of a field unengaged...
5+ FNP does not a 3w model make. A 3w model can reliably tank two Damage 2 shots. A 2w model with 5+ FNP cannot.
As for the Aura... That's debatable, and probably belongs in YMDC, since GW doesn't define what it means to be 'affected' by a rule. You can't get 'Curse of the Wulfen (Kill)' if you were 'affected' by 'Curse of the Wulfen (Hunt)'.
Thunderwolves got their well-deserved nerf. Nobody likes auto-pick units. They are still pretty decent, just not the absolute powerhouses they were before. Just deal with it.
Thunderwolves on their own were not an auto-include. They were powerful, sure - I'd go so far as to say that they were above average, but the only thing that made them an auto-include was stacking extra buffs on them to increase their durability and/or damage output.
GW got rid of the buffs, and then also hugely nerfed the Twolves as well. They're now decent at doing precisely one thing, and that one thing is killing hordes - A task that isn't exactly difficult.
Overall I think the internal balance is pretty good, however we need our chapter tactics equivalent and stratagems to really get back in the game. We're still more than playable but just don't expect to break any balls before getting our Codex or Chapter Approved update (whichever comes first).
Well sure, our internal balance is fine, but the problem is that our external balance is terrible because there's another army that can mirror everything we can do, except that the other army does everything much better. Which is why I was asking if there's something I'm missing.
Grey Hunters get +1A (chainsword) for 0pts, not 1pt.
You're semantically correct, but in effect... No. Grey Hunters are 14ppm a model. Tacticals are 13ppm. Grey Hunters are paying 1ppm for that chainsword in everything but name.
Wulfen gained a 5++ FNP, meaning they are close to 3W, and with great rolling they are 4W. Also I think you have misunderstood their auras. You cannot benefit from +1A if you have benefited from rerolling a charge. Meaning if you didn't reroll your charge you didn't "use up" that aura and you get your +1A. And if you make the charge after a re-roll I guess that is infinitely better than gaining +1A while standing in the middle of a field unengaged...
5+ FNP does not a 3w model make. A 3w model can reliably tank two Damage 2 shots. A 2w model with 5+ FNP cannot.
As for the Aura... That's debatable, and probably belongs in YMDC, since GW doesn't define what it means to be 'affected' by a rule. You can't get 'Curse of the Wulfen (Kill)' if you were 'affected' by 'Curse of the Wulfen (Hunt)'.
Thunderwolves got their well-deserved nerf. Nobody likes auto-pick units. They are still pretty decent, just not the absolute powerhouses they were before. Just deal with it.
Thunderwolves on their own were not an auto-include. They were powerful, sure - I'd go so far as to say that they were above average, but the only thing that made them an auto-include was stacking extra buffs on them to increase their durability and/or damage output.
GW got rid of the buffs, and then also hugely nerfed the Twolves as well. They're now decent at doing precisely one thing, and that one thing is killing hordes - A task that isn't exactly difficult.
Overall I think the internal balance is pretty good, however we need our chapter tactics equivalent and stratagems to really get back in the game. We're still more than playable but just don't expect to break any balls before getting our Codex or Chapter Approved update (whichever comes first).
Well sure, our internal balance is fine, but the problem is that our external balance is terrible because there's another army that can mirror everything we can do, except that the other army does everything much better. Which is why I was asking if there's something I'm missing.
Fair enough, didn't know tacticals are 13ppm.
Wulfen are just infantry sized dudesmen, I don't think 3 wounds was in any way justified. 2W with FNP works well enough I suppose. 3W would bring them closer to auto-pick and I would hate that since I don't like the models. The aura issue is a bit vague, but the way I described it is the only way it makes any sense at all.
FWIWTWC were an auto-pick in 7th. They were the best bang for buck unit in the codex even without the crazy buffs they could get. If you faced any serious CC power you HAD to bring TWC, no two ways around it really.
We have always lagged behind SM in codex creep curve and usually by the time GW has realized there is power creep around they have toned it down leaving SW at SM level, if not slightly worse. But with frequent erratas and chapter approved book etc there's a glimmer of hope that we might remain in the game. But you don't collect Space Wolves because they are the OP powerhouse in game, but because they are fething badass. The same reason you collect Orks. Rule of cool trumps FOTM.
I'm not saying that Wulfen should be 3w, I'm saying that they're overcosted as 2w models, because unless you take the Storm Shield, they're still incredibly fragile for 50ish points each. (Again, 5+ FNP is alright, but not enough to really compensate for the lack of good save or high T.)
And I'd say that Wulfen were much more of an autoinclude than Twolves - More attacks on the charge, plus bonus attacks upon death, could ride in transports, almost as fast, much cheaper, and with access to I5 AP2 attacks which were very, very rare for Imperials, especially with good strength and high volume of attacks. Twolves got T5 and slightly faster movement. T5 was great, sure, but without a Librarian to give rerollable saves, Wulfen were as close to pure better as you could get.
I'm not denying that unbuffed Twolves were good, I'm just saying they weren't any kind of ungodly cheese. (Though, even if they WERE ungodly cheese, they didn't need to be nerfed *this much*. GW tends to overdo things rather than take a measured, reasonable approach.)
Wolf Guard Battle Leader with TH/SS and Jump Pack is only 103 points.
Fenrisisan Wolves are good screens with their large bases and fast movement. They are even capable of tearing apart light infantry and even Space Marines with their -1 AP. They need a Wolf Priest for a LD buff though, but wolf priests are awesome, either cheap with jump pack or on a bike with a storm bolter. Their re-roll bubble is great for your TH wielding models.
Long Fangs with their inbuilt reroll are also good. Place them in cover and screen them from deepstrikers, then they may live to actually use their reroll
Wolf Scouts appearing on the opponents table edge can also be useful.
Very subjective but my Wolves have won all of their half-dozen games so far. To be fair, I never bought Wulfen or TWC and so they were seriously underpowered in 7th.
I have gone back to basics with plenty of Grey Hunters doubling down on the special weapons with smaller packs riding in TAC Razorbacks. Long Fangs and Hellblasters bring me heavy support while Bjorn and Njal lead from the front. Nothing fancy but it performs well.
Weazel wrote: Fenrisian Wolves 2x10 or 3x6 as bubble wrap against Smite spam. Yay or nay?
Not a bad choice. I would take 3 units personally as that is a Outrider detachment if you an an HQ. They protect against smite spam and also prevent Deep Striking near valuable units. If they get ignored early on, you can use them late-game to harass depleted enemy units or contest distant objectives.
3 Small units of Cyberwolves might be more cost effective. If you are using them for smite protection then points per wound becomes paramount.
Weazel wrote: Fenrisian Wolves 2x10 or 3x6 as bubble wrap against Smite spam. Yay or nay?
Not a bad choice. I would take 3 units personally as that is a Outrider detachment if you an an HQ. They protect against smite spam and also prevent Deep Striking near valuable units. If they get ignored early on, you can use them late-game to harass depleted enemy units or contest distant objectives.
3 Small units of Cyberwolves might be more cost effective. If you are using them for smite protection then points per wound becomes paramount.
Hadn't actually noticed Cyberwolves are even cheaper wounds, thanks. And more survivable against traditional attacks as well. That Ld4 is going to be a problem without a Priest though... But I guess if you place them properly the whole unit just vaporizes to Smites and morale never becomes an issue.
Yay. But you need to boost their morale or they simply evaporate. I.e. a Wolf Priest or Warlord with LD aura trait nearby.
It's also good vs T1 charges and deepstrikers. I always take some Wolves.
And when you don't need a screen, they could grab objectives or engage shooty enemies.
Just be careful when facing Grey Knights with Vortex. Keep more than 3" between your units
edit: fenris vs. cyber: yes, you get more wounds on cybers but more attacks and more space coverd on fenrisians. Depends on what you need. If you know that you face smite spam, cybers are better, but fenrisians are the TAC choice
edit2: cybers are great if they screen something that includes a Rune Priest with Storm Caller
Ragnar69 wrote: Wolf Guard Battle Leader with TH/SS and Jump Pack is only 103 points.
Long Fangs with their inbuilt reroll are also good. Place them in cover and screen them from deepstrikers, then they may live to actually use their reroll
Great points. I combine the long fangs reroll of 1's to hit with the WGBL reroll of 1's to wound. I take two squads of long fangs to make it worth my while keeping a 77 point (I prefer the pair of wolf claws in this case to keep him cheaper but still take the jump pack) buff in the back lines. He also is a good assist when someone wants to deep strike in front of them.
Plasma Intercessors look too pricey to me. Add to that with 4 shots each, over-charging is really risky as it only take a single 1 to kill a model outright. Intercessors have 2 wounds compared to the WG's 1 so each overheat is twice as costly.
I have actually found Rapid Fire Hellblasters to be the best plasma platform for Wolves. March them up the field with a Wolf Lord or Bjorn and they can really lay down some serious firepower. I have had them burn down a Hellbrute with a single volley which greatly impressed me.
Probably my impatience speaking but I love jumpers.
They force the enemy to deploy in ways that are defensive to block deepstrike rather than optimal to offensive strategies meaning I get to play a game rather than be brutalised on the first turn.
I constantly hear wonderful things about Hellblasters but have never really played them myself - what are they like for a mostly mobile army?
I constantly hear wonderful things about Hellblasters but have never really played them myself - what are they like for a mostly mobile army?
I find them good. Their 30" range combined with Rapid Fire means they provide a decent sized threat-bubble and within 15" they can really lay down the hurt. You do need a reroll character to babysit them though. I normally run Bjorn and they make a decent bodyguard for him.
In a fully mechanised army as they need a Repulsor which is a lot of points but can bring some decent firepower itself. In a mixed or footslogging army though, they rock.
COLD CASH wrote: Finally picked up some cheap bikes, so im running S.S. and plasma wolfguard bikers 280 points and they will run with Bjorn for flanking shenanigans!!
Fast - shooty (twin bolters/combi plas) - High S - 3++ - Bjorn Reroll - Bjorn bodyguard.
Only problem with bikes is when your opponent can lay down mortal wounds like candy.
Lost two units of bikes to a Decimator engine in a re-roll to hit bubble - 560-ish points gone in the first turn and didn't even get to roll a save.
I find Wulfen or Ven Dreads make a better escort for Bjorn.
I agree, that's why I always include in expensive units like bikers, terminators or TWC a couple of cheap dudes with no upgrades. They're the first ones to be removed if the units receives mortal wounds or hits with no AP that invalidate the storm shield's invuln.
A unit of 6 bikes could work with 3-4 combi plasmas and 2-3 storm bolters imho, if you really want the plasma biker unit. I prefer giving storm bolters to all of them and using footslogging wolf guards with combi plasmas embarked in a rhino or razorback.
COLD CASH wrote: Finally picked up some cheap bikes, so im running S.S. and plasma wolfguard bikers 280 points and they will run with Bjorn for flanking shenanigans!!
Fast - shooty (twin bolters/combi plas) - High S - 3++ - Bjorn Reroll - Bjorn bodyguard.
Only problem with bikes is when your opponent can lay down mortal wounds like candy.
Lost two units of bikes to a Decimator engine in a re-roll to hit bubble - 560-ish points gone in the first turn and didn't even get to roll a save.
I find Wulfen or Ven Dreads make a better escort for Bjorn.
Yeah, that's one of those things that I don't personally think is fair. Mortal wounds are fine and all, but a unit that can shoot 4d3 of mortal wounds at anything it looks at seems over power to me. Thankfully it's only range 24" so yeah, keep your elites away from it and destroy it from afar with something with range. This is what laz cannon long fangs are for!
COLD CASH wrote: Finally picked up some cheap bikes, so im running S.S. and plasma wolfguard bikers 280 points and they will run with Bjorn for flanking shenanigans!!
Fast - shooty (twin bolters/combi plas) - High S - 3++ - Bjorn Reroll - Bjorn bodyguard.
Only problem with bikes is when your opponent can lay down mortal wounds like candy.
Lost two units of bikes to a Decimator engine in a re-roll to hit bubble - 560-ish points gone in the first turn and didn't even get to roll a save.
I find Wulfen or Ven Dreads make a better escort for Bjorn.
Yeah, that's one of those things that I don't personally think is fair. Mortal wounds are fine and all, but a unit that can shoot 4d3 of mortal wounds at anything it looks at seems over power to me. Thankfully it's only range 24" so yeah, keep your elites away from it and destroy it from afar with something with range. This is what laz cannon long fangs are for!
I find having ranged stuff at as many of the four corners of the table as possible seems to work well against beasties like that.
You want to kill my stuff? Learn to hunt.
Hey friends. While we are on the bikes + Bjorn topic. I find that wolf guard bikers with storm bolters (much cheaper than plasma) plus their stock twin linked bolters l and the trusty storm shield can put out a lot of dakka. Can have more bodies and get more retooling to synergies with bjorns aura. Don’t get me wrong. Plasma wolf guard bikers are mean, but I LOVE surrounding Bjorn with a metric cr*p ton of bolters and spearheading into middle of the board. Toss a rune priest for added armor save bonus and some ever annoying dual assault canon razorbacks....
I think everyone should field a decent amount of ranged anti infantry in this edition. SW basically have wolf guards bikers with stormbolters, razorbacks with twin assault cannons and maybe footslogging wolf guards with chainswords and stormbolters in a rhino, plus the crusader and long fangs with missiles but these two options are quite expensive for what they actually do.
Plasma bikers are also solid but you can stick footslogging wolf guards with plasmas in a rhino or field long fangs with plasma cannons that are probably more effective for the same cost.
Bikers with plasma are 50 points dudes with only 2 wounds each, they will mostly be a bullet magnet in the army which is something that can also be useful sometimes but in my experience even with stormbolters those bikes attract a huge amount of firepower anyway.
Maybe I'm just being overly dramatic about this and maybe it's just my meta but Bikers are driving me up the wall. Space Wolf Bikers have such wonderful options and output but I always seem to wind up against mortal wound shooters when I use them.
I usually have TWC and terminators other than bikes, than can be targeted by mortal wounds shooters. And even with that redundancy I consider the bikes too fragile to be actually equipped with something different than stormbolters and a few shields.
I had been thinking of adding a cadian tank squadron of leman russ and pask as a way to increase my wolves dakka and threat priority. But that seems like quite a pain to get all the models and then paint it all up.
IN your guys opinion what mechanized Lord of war would serve the wolves best in this role? as girly also seems too diffcult to easily add in.
Yeah bikes have been very underwhelming for me, but in my main SM army i run rifle dreads and they just eat bikes. Even with the bikes having storm shields the dreads should kill 2-4 bikes a turn with roubute rerolls. So i just don't see them being durable enough for an enemy that is afraid of them to not just wipe them out, because that's what i would do.
jcd386 wrote: Yeah bikes have been very underwhelming for me, but in my main SM army i run rifle dreads and they just eat bikes. Even with the bikes having storm shields the dreads should kill 2-4 bikes a turn with roubute rerolls. So i just don't see them being durable enough for an enemy that is afraid of them to not just wipe them out, because that's what i would do.
Just about any ranged Dread is in a solid place against Bikers - 43%-ish chance of getting past the Biker's shield and they sit in that wonderful spot where all the Dread's optional ranged weapons seem to perform equally well against them - Heavy Flamers, Missile Launchers and Assault Canons can put out more shots to begin with, Twin Las Canons deal more damage. Nothing needs more than a 4+ to wound, most wound on a 3+. Dread sets you back about 130 points upwards, Swift Claws are 31ppm, Wolf Guard Bikers are 34+ppm.
Dread kills a basic five-man squad of Blood Claws and it has just paid for itself.
jcd386 wrote: Yeah bikes have been very underwhelming for me, but in my main SM army i run rifle dreads and they just eat bikes. Even with the bikes having storm shields the dreads should kill 2-4 bikes a turn with roubute rerolls. So i just don't see them being durable enough for an enemy that is afraid of them to not just wipe them out, because that's what i would do.
Just about any ranged Dread is in a solid place against Bikers - 43%-ish chance of getting past the Biker's shield and they sit in that wonderful spot where all the Dread's optional ranged weapons seem to perform equally well against them - Heavy Flamers, Missile Launchers and Assault Canons can put out more shots to begin with, Twin Las Canons deal more damage. Nothing needs more than a 4+ to wound, most wound on a 3+. Dread sets you back about 130 points upwards, Swift Claws are 31ppm, Wolf Guard Bikers are 34+ppm.
Dread kills a basic five-man squad of Blood Claws and it has just paid for itself.
But if that Dread is shooting your bikes, he's not shooting at your TWC or Wulfen, which should be the real threat vectors of a SW list. I still plan to run some Wolf Guard bikers. They might even get a price drop whenever SW get their codex, after all regular Marines and Chaos Marines got a price drop with theirs.
And at least in my meta, I've never even seen a Rifleman Dread, so I don't think they are all that common. Probably has to do with the fact that the kit doesn't come with autocannon arms and many players can't or won't get the FW ones.
jcd386 wrote: Yeah bikes have been very underwhelming for me, but in my main SM army i run rifle dreads and they just eat bikes. Even with the bikes having storm shields the dreads should kill 2-4 bikes a turn with roubute rerolls. So i just don't see them being durable enough for an enemy that is afraid of them to not just wipe them out, because that's what i would do.
Just about any ranged Dread is in a solid place against Bikers - 43%-ish chance of getting past the Biker's shield and they sit in that wonderful spot where all the Dread's optional ranged weapons seem to perform equally well against them - Heavy Flamers, Missile Launchers and Assault Canons can put out more shots to begin with, Twin Las Canons deal more damage. Nothing needs more than a 4+ to wound, most wound on a 3+. Dread sets you back about 130 points upwards, Swift Claws are 31ppm, Wolf Guard Bikers are 34+ppm.
Dread kills a basic five-man squad of Blood Claws and it has just paid for itself.
But if that Dread is shooting your bikes, he's not shooting at your TWC or Wulfen, which should be the real threat vectors of a SW list. I still plan to run some Wolf Guard bikers. They might even get a price drop whenever SW get their codex, after all regular Marines and Chaos Marines got a price drop with theirs.
And at least in my meta, I've never even seen a Rifleman Dread, so I don't think they are all that common. Probably has to do with the fact that the kit doesn't come with autocannon arms and many players can't or won't get the FW ones.
The only time you'll see a Rifleman Dread is in a "Mirror Match" with another Space Wolves player. Bjorn + Rifleman Dread covered by a shield and axe Dread and Iron Priest or a pack of Wulfen is a solid combo.
In my Meta the problem with Bikes is the amount of people who can and do toss out mortal wounds quicker than Santa tosses candy. Wulfen and Ven Dreads get FnP saves against mortal wounds, then the Iron Priest can repair the Dread, pity Wolf Priests are too expensive to take to heal Wulfen. The next problem is Imperial Guard, my Storm Shields are useless because they're not getting Save Modifiers anyhow.
If there was a way of keeping the bikes safer I'd be all for them, their firepower is amazing, their mobility is amazing, their shield is amazing it's just in my meta I'm always facing Guard or Mortal Wound flingers.
So I've been eyeballing my wolves lately, trying to decide what to do with them. I loved running blackmanes in 7th, but with pod price and reserve rules, it just isn't very feasible, even for casual games. I don't think I want to run razorback rush, because my death guard will be running rhino rush, and why have 2 armies if you play them the same on the table?
So can SW work as a fast attack army? I've seen a lot of talk about wolf guard bikes, TWC seem to still be pretty good. I've got +15 jump infantry and 10 wulfen that have been gathering dust for a bit, and a good chunk of TDA and more fenrisian wolves than I can shake a stick at!
Would min troops, and then a chunk of TWC, WG bikers, swiftclaws and wulfen, maybe some TDA dropping in be at all competitive? I feel like I would get shot down pretty hard, and have trouble with fliers.
As it stands minus dreads and long fangs wolves don’t have much that is competitive. Bikes out out metric ton of shots but get wreck by mass fire power or mortal wounds, and twc are hot garbage. Wulfen are nice but require a lot of points to get anywhere.
Well 3 units of GH with Razorbacks and fast attack choices on top of that backed by at least a couple units of Long Fangs is a feasible list, but SW are not really competitive at the moment. We definitely need some chapter tactics and stratagems to stay in the game. I'm hoping the Chapter Approved throws us a bone, otherwise I'll just keep my wolves benched until the codex drops... Maybe Russ brings us back in a big way.
Ironically I'm moving into Orks who have it even worse than SW currently... guess I just enjoy pain.
oz of the north wrote: As it stands minus dreads and long fangs wolves don’t have much that is competitive. Bikes out out metric ton of shots but get wreck by mass fire power or mortal wounds, and twc are hot garbage. Wulfen are nice but require a lot of points to get anywhere.
Dreadnoughts you say? Is it the shield/axe dreads that are so good? I've got 8 SW dreads, a contemptor and a leviathan. Just got a second kit of long fangs, which will also be magnetized.
Hey all, a friend of mine just bought the get started box for Space Wolves.
We're trying to figure out the best way to kit the models out for him, I tried looking a few pages into the thread but couldn't find much so I figured I'd come here and ask.
gwarsh41 wrote: Dreadnoughts you say? Is it the shield/axe dreads that are so good? I've got 8 SW dreads, a contemptor and a leviathan. Just got a second kit of long fangs, which will also be magnetized.
Bjorn and Murderfang are both Characters so a popular tactic is to run them behind an Axe/Shield Dread as a bodyguard to reach the opponent's lines. Bjorn is epic in combat, I have had him slice a Wraithknight in half in a single round of combat before.
Run them with TWC or WG bikers to clear hordes and they will crush almost anything they assault.
We're trying to figure out the best way to kit the models out for him, I tried looking a few pages into the thread but couldn't find much so I figured I'd come here and ask.
Thanks for any help
The Captain can become one of a few Wolf Lord builds, I did mine with a storm bolter and sword (relic blade or frost sword depending on points) but the combi-plasma is a solid choice too.
Split the 10 guys into two grey hunter packs.
Pack Leader with Sword (or axe)
Plasma Gun
Plasma Pistol (or leave this as a bolter / chain sword)
2 Bolter / Chainsword
Pack Leader with Fist
Plasmagun
3 Bolter / Chainsword (or add a plasma pistol if you like)
These two packs can then (later) get a WolfGuard pack leader for the additional oomph (TH/SS or Wolf Claws or Frost XXX and Combi) and Ld 8 while fitting nicely in a razorback.
Thunderwolves can get spendy - I did the TH/SS on the Pack Leader, an Axe/SS and Chainsword/SS
We're trying to figure out the best way to kit the models out for him, I tried looking a few pages into the thread but couldn't find much so I figured I'd come here and ask.
Thanks for any help
The Captain can become one of a few Wolf Lord builds, I did mine with a storm bolter and sword (relic blade or frost sword depending on points) but the combi-plasma is a solid choice too.
Split the 10 guys into two grey hunter packs.
Pack Leader with Sword (or axe)
Plasma Gun
Plasma Pistol (or leave this as a bolter / chain sword)
2 Bolter / Chainsword
Pack Leader with Fist
Plasmagun
3 Bolter / Chainsword (or add a plasma pistol if you like)
These two packs can then (later) get a WolfGuard pack leader for the additional oomph (TH/SS or Wolf Claws or Frost XXX and Combi) and Ld 8 while fitting nicely in a razorback.
Thunderwolves can get spendy - I did the TH/SS on the Pack Leader, an Axe/SS and Chainsword/SS
+1 this. Very good advice.
Consider how you want to make your army work as well. I just redid my wolf army (long story) and have made it more of a blood claws / wulfen Centered force with wolf guard on bikes and jump packs. Blood claws get a nice boost as long as wulfen are around, and can really feed off of them. But if your not taking the wulfen then blood claws lose some of (not all) their appeal to Grey Hunters. Grey Hunters can have a great loadout as well if your looking for great mid range shooting with the number of plasma you can give a squad of 10. 1 wolf guard pack leader with combi plasma, 2 Grey Hunters with plasma guns, 1 Grey hunter with plasma pistol, 6 with bolters, pack leader with chainsword. That's 3 plasma shots at 24" or 7 at 12", much better than what a regular marine squad can get.
So the best advice is plan out how he wants to fight.
Actually I've recently been surprised by Cyber Wolves, they have a lot against them but they also come as units of one.
Single model units that are very fast and reasonably priced aren't common so people tend to lose sight of them as they slink onto objectives and sit just out of sight and quickly become out of mind.
We're trying to figure out the best way to kit the models out for him, I tried looking a few pages into the thread but couldn't find much so I figured I'd come here and ask.
Thanks for any help
The Captain can become one of a few Wolf Lord builds, I did mine with a storm bolter and sword (relic blade or frost sword depending on points) but the combi-plasma is a solid choice too.
Split the 10 guys into two grey hunter packs.
Pack Leader with Sword (or axe)
Plasma Gun
Plasma Pistol (or leave this as a bolter / chain sword)
2 Bolter / Chainsword
Pack Leader with Fist
Plasmagun
3 Bolter / Chainsword (or add a plasma pistol if you like)
These two packs can then (later) get a WolfGuard pack leader for the additional oomph (TH/SS or Wolf Claws or Frost XXX and Combi) and Ld 8 while fitting nicely in a razorback.
Thunderwolves can get spendy - I did the TH/SS on the Pack Leader, an Axe/SS and Chainsword/SS
+1 this. Very good advice.
Consider how you want to make your army work as well. I just redid my wolf army (long story) and have made it more of a blood claws / wulfen Centered force with wolf guard on bikes and jump packs. Blood claws get a nice boost as long as wulfen are around, and can really feed off of them. But if your not taking the wulfen then blood claws lose some of (not all) their appeal to Grey Hunters. Grey Hunters can have a great loadout as well if your looking for great mid range shooting with the number of plasma you can give a squad of 10. 1 wolf guard pack leader with combi plasma, 2 Grey Hunters with plasma guns, 1 Grey hunter with plasma pistol, 6 with bolters, pack leader with chainsword. That's 3 plasma shots at 24" or 7 at 12", much better than what a regular marine squad can get.
So the best advice is plan out how he wants to fight.
Thanks for the feedback! We usually play in Power Level so points aren't really a concern. I know that besides the starter box he plans on getting the 10man+drop pod box, a box of Wulfen, and Bjorn.
As for TWC I think he mentioned wanting to do dual claws on the leader and TH/SS on the others, does that work?
Can someone help me decide where to go with list building please, Got 10 wulfen, 6 with axe 4 with hammer/storm shield and 3 rune priests on bikes.
I guess the priests on bikes wouldn't take much to make them wolf priests instead or even wolf guard on bikes. at the moment 2 of them are modelled with axes and one with a staff/hammer and all of stromshields on the bike somewhere. I don't mind doing a bit more work to them.
The plan when i got them was to run a murderpack and a wierdstorm brotherhood in 800pt games but never got round to it. I'd still like to keep it small but possibly 1000pts? What can I add to round it out with a decent 1000pt list?
Thanks for the feedback! We usually play in Power Level so points aren't really a concern. I know that besides the starter box he plans on getting the 10man+drop pod box, a box of Wulfen, and Bjorn.
As for TWC I think he mentioned wanting to do dual claws on the leader and TH/SS on the others, does that work?
That layout works as well for TWC. I like the hammer on the pack Leader for the third attack when I only have one hammer.
Our play group finally is moving past power levels. There were some pretty big disparities in points level between 100 PL lists. Easily 200 points, with some armies pushing 2000 and others just hitting 1800. Space Wolves get penalized pretty hard with Wolf Guard pack leaders costing 2PL for a single model that costs as little as 14 points. And is the only way to get LD 8 in the Squad too. It’s a good way to start with quick builds, but keep an eye on total points vs PL as folks can easily see a 10% swing.
BAN wrote: Can someone help me decide where to go with list building please, Got 10 wulfen, 6 with axe 4 with hammer/storm shield and 3 rune priests on bikes.
I guess the priests on bikes wouldn't take much to make them wolf priests instead or even wolf guard on bikes. at the moment 2 of them are modelled with axes and one with a staff/hammer and all of stromshields on the bike somewhere. I don't mind doing a bit more work to them.
The plan when i got them was to run a murderpack and a wierdstorm brotherhood in 800pt games but never got round to it. I'd still like to keep it small but possibly 1000pts? What can I add to round it out with a decent 1000pt list?
10 wulfen in a 1000 list are hard if not impossible to field, they're not exceptional even in a 2000 points list, I'd suggest to try just one squad. Now the leader with claws is mandatory in wulfen squads but WYSIWYG is not a thing anymore so you can keep axes or TH/SS on your models and use one of them as a leader with claws.
The biker wolf priest has great synergy with wulfen.
Add cheap troops, 2 or 3 units of 5 grey hunters and a unit of long fangs.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Actually I've recently been surprised by Cyber Wolves, they have a lot against them but they also come as units of one.
Single model units that are very fast and reasonably priced aren't common so people tend to lose sight of them as they slink onto objectives and sit just out of sight and quickly become out of mind.
Plus they can be used to prevent deep striking around them. Whilst not numerous enough to bubble-wrap, you can certainly help protect key units from having plasma dropped on their heads/
Despite always finishing first with deployment, I always ended up going second.
First game was:
Vostroyan Command detachment: 2 company commanders and Hellhammer LOW
Roubute Guilliman, Cullexus
Admech: enginseer, 3 kataphrons, 2 robots, 4x5 skittari
maybe something else, can't remember.
T1 he killed the Stormwolf + BCs and a Razorback. Couldn't shoot the LFs because I blocked LOS with a razor. I did 17 dmg to his Hellhammer but he repaired 7 next turn. He had the warlord trait to recycle command points and a relic to steal mine. He used about 30 CPs that game and tabled my T4
Game 2 was vs. Salamamders
Vulcan
Captain
Lieutnant
2x5 Tacticals with lascannon
1x5 tactical with plasma in HB razorback
10 devatators with plasma
9 devastators with multi-meltas in drop pod
3 attack bikes with MM Dread with LC/Missile
Ultramarine patrol with Telion and 10 scouts
I really underestimated this list and did grave errors during deployment. Didn't castle up enough so he could drop Vulcan and the MMs behind the Stormwolf and kill it with a bit of support from his lascannons. Björn wasn't shielded enough so he could kill him too. The BCs couldn't even handle the devastators in melee even I had already softened them up with a Razorback. Got tabled T3
Last game was vs. Necrons
2 Overlords
1 Cryptek
2x19 warriors
5 immortals
5 Lychguard
2x3 Wraith
Transport
that round skimmer thing with the big guns
This time everything worked as planned. he didn't have much long range shooting so I could start my T1 relatively unscathed. Razors and GHs had Björn/Battleleader Buff for most of the game. I could kill his skimmer and immortals T1 and tie up his wraiths with my wolves. I then concentrated on one unit after the other and annihilated them. He wasn't able to bring back a single model. I tabled him T4 and only lost a unit of wolves and my battle leader.
Edit: lack of strategems and relics is really hurting and more bodies are needed. I'm tempted to try a small IG brigade with Logan, Arjac and 10-15 termis DSing
My best mate plays Space Wolves - I'm gonna mostly lurk to see ideas I could pass on to her, in the meantime I'll say that facing up against Space Wolves in Power Level games I am mostly scared of her TH/SSTWC, Spartan full of axe-wielding Wulfen, Njal, and the TH/SS/Combi-Plasma Wolf Guard she'll soon be stuffing into a Drop Pod.
Blood Claws are pretty intimidating, if they can land or drive to a point where their horde isn't going to take heavy morale casualties. Or come up against Berzerkers.
On the Primaris front, when they get a Rhino equivalent, her Hellblasters are going to be trouble, too. Intercessors are already doing good work as robust screens & CP farmers.
lindsay40k wrote: My best mate plays Space Wolves - I'm gonna mostly lurk to see ideas I could pass on to her, in the meantime I'll say that facing up against Space Wolves in Power Level games I am mostly scared of her TH/SSTWC, Spartan full of axe-wielding Wulfen, Njal, and the TH/SS/Combi-Plasma Wolf Guard she'll soon be stuffing into a Drop Pod.
My wolf guard plasma murder Squad is getting jump packs rather than a drop pod. Still can do reserve deployment but have the larger move, can fall back and shoot and it’s less points/PL as well. (To be 100% honest they are getting magnetic black packs/jump pods and sternguard
Combi Weapons to swap.)
Despite always finishing first with deployment, I always ended up going second.
First game was:
Vostroyan Command detachment: 2 company commanders and Hellhammer LOW
Roubute Guilliman, Cullexus
Admech: enginseer, 3 kataphrons, 2 robots, 4x5 skittari
maybe something else, can't remember.
T1 he killed the Stormwolf + BCs and a Razorback. Couldn't shoot the LFs because I blocked LOS with a razor. I did 17 dmg to his Hellhammer but he repaired 7 next turn. He had the warlord trait to recycle command points and a relic to steal mine. He used about 30 CPs that game and tabled my T4
Game 2 was vs. Salamamders
Vulcan
Captain
Lieutnant
2x5 Tacticals with lascannon
1x5 tactical with plasma in HB razorback
10 devatators with plasma
9 devastators with multi-meltas in drop pod
3 attack bikes with MM Dread with LC/Missile
Ultramarine patrol with Telion and 10 scouts
I really underestimated this list and did grave errors during deployment. Didn't castle up enough so he could drop Vulcan and the MMs behind the Stormwolf and kill it with a bit of support from his lascannons. Björn wasn't shielded enough so he could kill him too. The BCs couldn't even handle the devastators in melee even I had already softened them up with a Razorback. Got tabled T3
Last game was vs. Necrons
2 Overlords
1 Cryptek
2x19 warriors
5 immortals
5 Lychguard
2x3 Wraith
Transport
that round skimmer thing with the big guns
This time everything worked as planned. he didn't have much long range shooting so I could start my T1 relatively unscathed. Razors and GHs had Björn/Battleleader Buff for most of the game. I could kill his skimmer and immortals T1 and tie up his wraiths with my wolves. I then concentrated on one unit after the other and annihilated them. He wasn't able to bring back a single model. I tabled him T4 and only lost a unit of wolves and my battle leader.
Edit: lack of strategems and relics is really hurting and more bodies are needed. I'm tempted to try a small IG brigade with Logan, Arjac and 10-15 termis DSing
As both a Salamander and wolf player when I read what the Salamander player had and what you had I didn't think that was going to go well for you. :(
Having said that your list looks good, but the key is to maximize what you do well and protect what you don't do well. To me that means giving plasma to Grey Hunters if your going to use them (they are quite cool at blowing stuff up at 12" with plasma), taking at least 2 squads of 10 blood claws and putting them in rhinos if your going that way with a squad of wulfen in a rhino as well (though I prefer taking 30 blood claws and 2 squads of 5 Wulfen in rhinos when I run this), or going Bjorn with 2 venerable with blizard shields and great axes for a dreadnought close combat beast.
Still if doesn't sound like you did too bad. You lost to codex forces so your totally correct that not having stratagem or relics hurts us.
Despite always finishing first with deployment, I always ended up going second.
First game was:
Vostroyan Command detachment: 2 company commanders and Hellhammer LOW
Roubute Guilliman, Cullexus
Admech: enginseer, 3 kataphrons, 2 robots, 4x5 skittari
maybe something else, can't remember.
T1 he killed the Stormwolf + BCs and a Razorback. Couldn't shoot the LFs because I blocked LOS with a razor. I did 17 dmg to his Hellhammer but he repaired 7 next turn. He had the warlord trait to recycle command points and a relic to steal mine. He used about 30 CPs that game and tabled my T4
Game 2 was vs. Salamamders
Vulcan
Captain
Lieutnant
2x5 Tacticals with lascannon
1x5 tactical with plasma in HB razorback
10 devatators with plasma
9 devastators with multi-meltas in drop pod
3 attack bikes with MM Dread with LC/Missile
Ultramarine patrol with Telion and 10 scouts
I really underestimated this list and did grave errors during deployment. Didn't castle up enough so he could drop Vulcan and the MMs behind the Stormwolf and kill it with a bit of support from his lascannons. Björn wasn't shielded enough so he could kill him too. The BCs couldn't even handle the devastators in melee even I had already softened them up with a Razorback. Got tabled T3
Last game was vs. Necrons
2 Overlords
1 Cryptek
2x19 warriors
5 immortals
5 Lychguard
2x3 Wraith
Transport
that round skimmer thing with the big guns
This time everything worked as planned. he didn't have much long range shooting so I could start my T1 relatively unscathed. Razors and GHs had Björn/Battleleader Buff for most of the game. I could kill his skimmer and immortals T1 and tie up his wraiths with my wolves. I then concentrated on one unit after the other and annihilated them. He wasn't able to bring back a single model. I tabled him T4 and only lost a unit of wolves and my battle leader.
Edit: lack of strategems and relics is really hurting and more bodies are needed. I'm tempted to try a small IG brigade with Logan, Arjac and 10-15 termis DSing
As both a Salamander and wolf player when I read what the Salamander player had and what you had I didn't think that was going to go well for you. :(
Having said that your list looks good, but the key is to maximize what you do well and protect what you don't do well. To me that means giving plasma to Grey Hunters if your going to use them (they are quite cool at blowing stuff up at 12" with plasma), taking at least 2 squads of 10 blood claws and putting them in rhinos if your going that way with a squad of wulfen in a rhino as well (though I prefer taking 30 blood claws and 2 squads of 5 Wulfen in rhinos when I run this), or going Bjorn with 2 venerable with blizard shields and great axes for a dreadnought close combat beast.
Still if doesn't sound like you did too bad. You lost to codex forces so your totally correct that not having stratagem or relics hurts us.
I am fairly sure you cannot put Wulfen in a Rhino? I'll be pleased as pumpkin pie to be told otherwise.
I can’t find anything saying Wulfen cannot board Rhinos, however this may be an oversight and I’d advise caution before making purchases to capitalise on this quirk before the Codex drops.
lindsay40k wrote: I can’t find anything saying Wulfen cannot board Rhinos, however this may be an oversight and I’d advise caution before making purchases to capitalise on this quirk before the Codex drops.
I believe we had this discussion when I originally started this thread. It boiled down to GW probably making a small oversight. When Wulfen take up space in a Stormwolf, they take up 2 slots. Stuff that takes up 2 slots can't go into rhinos usually (Terminators for instance). So even though it's not strict RAW... rules as intended seems to indicate not allowing it. It's why Wulfen can go into Landraiders from my POV though.
But I suppose while it isn't written down specifically.. go for it lol. I just won't do it I guess.
Rhino datasheet is in the SM part of the index, of course it doesn't mention Wulfen.
But at the start of the SW section there is a list with all datasheets that we can use from the SM section. Some are marked with a footnote that they are allowed to carry Wulfen but that they count as 2 models. Rhinos and Razors don't have that footnote.
So anybody aware of this still putting Wulfen in Rhinos is IMHO blatantly cheating.
Ragnar69 wrote: Rhino datasheet is in the SM part of the index, of course it doesn't mention Wulfen.
But at the start of the SW section there is a list with all datasheets that we can use from the SM section. Some are marked with a footnote that they are allowed to carry Wulfen but that they count as 2 models. Rhinos and Razors don't have that footnote.
So anybody aware of this still putting Wulfen in Rhinos is IMHO blatantly cheating.
Ragnar69 wrote: Rhino datasheet is in the SM part of the index, of course it doesn't mention Wulfen.
But at the start of the SW section there is a list with all datasheets that we can use from the SM section. Some are marked with a footnote that they are allowed to carry Wulfen but that they count as 2 models. Rhinos and Razors don't have that footnote.
So anybody aware of this still putting Wulfen in Rhinos is IMHO blatantly cheating.
That's why I use the phrase "anybody aware of it" as it's really easy to miss.
If the rumors about Chapter Approved are true and we get a strategam that lets us outflank, I might try outflanking Wulfen paired with Arjac and terminators porting in.
With Los being a real thing, meaning your models block Los, and rhinos being, we'll, big, has anyone tried the old "back to back" rhino wall cheese? I remember this from 3rd edition as a viable tactic. If so, couldn't you just run like 3 rhinos with wulfen running behind them using them as cover?
Or the opp rolls for his AT weaponry first. Rhinos aren't cheap enough for this stunt. They are somewhat sturdy enough to carry passengers to their destination.
Often losing my best units before it's even my first turn, I'm now thinking of migitating this with a DS list.
For 1850 points I could get a Brigade and an Outrider detachment with:
Logan
Arjac
melee BL with JP
5 Termis
5 WG with JP and combi-plasma
5 Scouts with plasma
Lone wolf termi with SS/combi-melta
2x 10 GHs in Rhinos
5 GHS
7x1 Cyber Wolf
So I would start with only 5 guys, 2 Rhinos and 7 Cybers on the board.
The Lone Wolf might be able to DS behind screening units due to his small footprint. The Cybers can either deny my deployment zone to DS or block my Rhinos from T1 charges and could be useful in Maelstrom missions or gang up on enemy units,
Anyone seeing a decent use for the True Grit strategem?
Looks like a waste of a CP to me - give grey hunters, for example, one more bolter shot in the shooting phase when within an inch of an enemy unit. They already have pistols to shoot, right? Why would I bother?
Patch wrote: Anyone seeing a decent use for the True Grit strategem?
Looks like a waste of a CP to me - give grey hunters, for example, one more bolter shot in the shooting phase when within an inch of an enemy unit. They already have pistols to shoot, right? Why would I bother?
If you have intercessors... extra shot and -1 AP...
But I only have one Space Wolf Intercessor as a test paint model as I'm salty about losing the power sword for a chain sword when there's a perfectly serviceable axe on the Wolf Bits Sprue as well.
They did however clear up that you won't be able to pistol your bolter while you pistol your bolt pistol.
Patch wrote: And Bjorn will be unstoppable in cc with that warlord trait.
Named characters cannot normally take a Warlord Trait.
Not true in the slightest. Like, in literally every regard.
Named Characters can take a warlord trait just fine. However, the codexes have restricted named characters to a single locked trait rather than a choice. Until then you can select a BRB warlord trait or the one in chapter approved.
Patch wrote: Anyone seeing a decent use for the True Grit strategem?
Looks like a waste of a CP to me - give grey hunters, for example, one more bolter shot in the shooting phase when within an inch of an enemy unit. They already have pistols to shoot, right? Why would I bother?
I see a use for it. the 1" mark is in combat. So if they get charged and survive, normally they only get 1 pistol shot a piece right? Now they fire the actual bolter in their face, for 2 shots each. THEN they get to make their normal combat attacks. It's basically two rounds of assault for them.
Patch wrote: Anyone seeing a decent use for the True Grit strategem?
Looks like a waste of a CP to me - give grey hunters, for example, one more bolter shot in the shooting phase when within an inch of an enemy unit. They already have pistols to shoot, right? Why would I bother?
I see a use for it. the 1" mark is in combat. So if they get charged and survive, normally they only get 1 pistol shot a piece right? Now they fire the actual bolter in their face, for 2 shots each. THEN they get to make their normal combat attacks. It's basically two rounds of assault for them.
Yeh this is how i read it as well. For those situations where they dont get mulched before they can fight back this seems solid.
And Bjorn will be unstoppable in cc with that warlord trait.
Which one?
Well assuming that the rumour was correct (as it was about True Grit) the SW warlord trait coming in Chapter Approved will allow the warlord to always go first in the fight phase regardless of whether or not they charged.
ArmchairArbiter wrote:
I see a use for it. the 1" mark is in combat. So if they get charged and survive, normally they only get 1 pistol shot a piece right? Now they fire the actual bolter in their face, for 2 shots each. THEN they get to make their normal combat attacks. It's basically two rounds of assault for them.
I understand how/when it's used I just don't see how getting a handful more bolter shots would ever be worth a CP. One more shot per marine in shooting phase, when they can already fire one shot each with their pistols anyway. It's just a really bad stratagem - especially considering it costs the same to re-roll a failed storm shield save.
Complaining aside, I'm glad we're getting some stuff to tide us by till the codex and the outflanking stratagem should be really useful.
Not every stratagem can be a game winning one. All the codex I have, have some great obvious winners, but also some really situational ones that can be super useful at the right time. If my GH were bogged down with poxwalkers and needed to clean them off an objective ASAP, I could see true grit getting some use.
Same with being locked in CC with a few dudes, the extra shots could help ensure you kill them in the shooting phase, so you can charge something else in the assault phase.
With my death guard, I mostly find myself using the stratagem to explode vehicles, and the rest of the time its dice re-rolls. Their grenade one looks so awesome on paper, but I rarely find myself in a situation to use it.
Northern85Star wrote: The stratagem is only intended to make SW players buy primaris marines. GW recognizes that SW players are least likely to buy them.
For the average SW player, it’s 1 CP for 5 ekstra bolt shots in CC.
Well, nice try GW but I ain't cracking on buying those primaris marines.
I really hope that space wolf WT is legit, Bjorn attacking first, or any character really despite being charged is space wolfy and advantageous
Northern85Star wrote: The stratagem is only intended to make SW players buy primaris marines. GW recognizes that SW players are least likely to buy them.
For the average SW player, it’s 1 CP for 5 ekstra bolt shots in CC.
Well, nice try GW but I ain't cracking on buying those primaris marines.
This. I have an idea for primaris but it definitely is no where near my wolves. If anything my wolves would be more likely to bite the primaris than work with them.
KingCorpus wrote: I really hope that space wolf WT is legit, Bjorn attacking first, or any character really despite being charged is space wolfy and advantageous
Me too, but once the codex comes out, special characters will have a prefixed WT. Hopefully we can kit our own characters with it. Im not too much into using special characters too often.. feels unfluffy.
On a side note, has anyone been up against the new tyranid? Got a game coming up, wondering what i should expect/field.
Had a game last week, another happening tonight. What kind of tyranid are you playing against, any idea? That can mean a lot.
My list last week went up against a swarm army and devastated it. I had a squad of 5 wolf guard on bikes with storm bolters and storm shields that recked a squad of 20 genestealers, 3 land speeders with assault cannons and heavy bolters that dominated against hormagaunts, and a stupid expensive long fang squad with 5 fangs with missile launchers and a terminator wolf guard with cyclone missile launcher (not point effective but I wanted to try it) that made a hive tyrant dissappear first turn. The rest of my list were 10 Grey Hunters, 20 blood claws, 5 Wulfen (4 with thunder hammer / storm shield), Bjorn, runepriest, and a rhino.
Wulfen got shot off the board by a trygon / termagaunts pop, blood claws took some casualties as well as the Grey Hunters because they were protecting the long fangs, but in the end I came out OK. Those wolf guard put out a stupid amount of shots and all having 3++ armor saves well, it's not easy to kill them.
I am glossing over some details but you don't want a full blow by blow account anyways I am sure. Things I learned.
1. Don't underestimate trygon prime + 20 termagaunts with devourers popping up and shooting 72 shots at something, then using the "single minded annihilation" on the gaunts again. It's just.... Not nice.
2. It depends on how your playing it, my game we agreed in the beginning that "endless swarm" the reinforments don't cost points, your paying command points for the new squad and have to lose a squad first for you to be able to use it, which to me until they say one way or the other in friendly games I think makes sense (I was actually the one to bring it up and say that it should probably play that way), and did it make a difference. Thankfully those bikers and blood claws were up to the task. Well, the bikers were, the blood claws died in the end to hormagaunts that just wouldn't stay dead. Thank God that stratagem doesn't work on genestealers, I would rethink my position on it lol.
3. Be sure to target priority what is most dangerous in your opponents list. I made sure those genestealers never had a chance to kill me. If they would have gotten to my line at full strength, game over Man. Lucky I got first turn and used the bikers range to deal with them first.
And Bjorn will be unstoppable in cc with that warlord trait.
Which one?
Well assuming that the rumour was correct (as it was about True Grit) the SW warlord trait coming in Chapter Approved will allow the warlord to always go first in the fight phase regardless of whether or not they charged.
Ooooh
Time to un-shelf my Wolves to give that a try when I have the book
The infiltrate unit thing also looks powerful as all hell(depending on the units we can choose). Im really hoping these changes allow a better dynamic for meta play.
Pretty sure the infiltrating Stratagem is going to be infantry only, so no TWC probably. Don't have any Wulfen meaning it's going to be pretty rubbish for me. Also interested whether it's a "deep strike" stratagem or straight up deployment stratagem á la Raven Guard / Alpha Legion.
Weazel wrote: Pretty sure the infiltrating Stratagem is going to be infantry only, so no TWC probably. Don't have any Wulfen meaning it's going to be pretty rubbish for me. Also interested whether it's a "deep strike" stratagem or straight up deployment stratagem á la Raven Guard / Alpha Legion.
I dont have any either but ive been waiting for the C.A. to drop to see which units get better and if thats a true strat! then i can change/buy for a new more wolfy list(razorback GH spam is kinda cool but samey as all the other chapters!!). Granted we are all space marines but im hoping a more competitive list is more wolf flavored!!
And Bjorn will be unstoppable in cc with that warlord trait.
Which one?
Well assuming that the rumour was correct (as it was about True Grit) the SW warlord trait coming in Chapter Approved will allow the warlord to always go first in the fight phase regardless of whether or not they charged.
It was confirmed a little while ago on the Twitch stream when they teased one new item from each faction. The SW Warlord trait is 'always fights first'...
Lots of nice point reductions in Chapter Approved!
Oddly, I'm most excited about Fenrisian Wolves dropping.from 9ppm to 6ppm - great screening unit now for soaking smites, etc. and always look great running up.tje table alongside the rest.of a SW army.
So outside of Shield Dreads, Rune Priests and a couple of vehicles (minus Drop Pod) got slight or significant point reductions.
I didn't really take Rune Priests at 68 and I sure as heck am not going to take them at 88 points. I don't know what justifies the price hike other than "Smite nerf". Or we are getting some seriously beefy psychic powers that might make me change my mind...
But I think the most significant changes are TWC down 5 points and TWCSS down 5 points for an effective drop of 10 points if fielding them with SS.
Terminators down 5 points and thunder hammers down 4 points making TH/SS terminators a very viable option.
Blizzard Shield went up 15 points making Shield Dreads slightly more expensive and I think they deserved it.
Made a pretty standard 2000p list and managed to fit in 130ish more points than before. Not mindblowing but pretty substantial nonetheless.
Anyone know if we are getting any other rules besides the stratagems and warlord traits and whatnot? I know I would KILL to have the Black Templar chapter tactic (reroll charges)...
Ragnar69 just use a WP with Jump Pack, you'll lose 2" and a point of toughness but a flying character is much easier to position if the battlefield becomes too crowded.
Y'know what would be funny? Use the True Grit stratagem on a unit of Long Fangs with 4 Heavy Bolters while they are in combat. Obviously you shouldn't let your Long Fangs end up in CC, but if they do...
ZergSmasher wrote: Y'know what would be funny? Use the True Grit stratagem on a unit of Long Fangs with 4 Heavy Bolters while they are in combat. Obviously you shouldn't let your Long Fangs end up in CC, but if they do...
Also, wouldn't it work on Inceptors?
The weapons that can benefit from the Stratagem are pretty clearly mentioned. Heavy Bolters are not one of them.
Ragnar69 just use a WP with Jump Pack, you'll lose 2" and a point of toughness but a flying character is much easier to position if the battlefield becomes too crowded.
I know, but I have a converted biker WP. Do you know how long it takes to remove old Ulrik's metal head undamaged ?
ZergSmasher wrote: Y'know what would be funny? Use the True Grit stratagem on a unit of Long Fangs with 4 Heavy Bolters while they are in combat. Obviously you shouldn't let your Long Fangs end up in CC, but if they do...
Also, wouldn't it work on Inceptors?
The weapons that can benefit from the Stratagem are pretty clearly mentioned. Heavy Bolters are not one of them.
Ah, I didn't read it carefully. My bad.
Intercessors would be pretty nasty with this stratagem. If they survive getting charged by something, they'll just stay in CC and give the enemy some bolt rifle rounds in the kisser before handing out a bunch of CC attacks. I still think the strat is meh, but it doesn't take anything away and costs nothing if it's not used, so it doesn't hurt to have it available should an appropriate situation arise.
Northern85Star wrote: 5 wulfen: FC, 2 x TH/SS, 2 x GFA just went from 284 to 231 pts...
Noticed, amazing. And with the new outflanking stratagem...
Yeah I am super excited about that combination. I might actually be able to afford to bring wulfen and TWC and not have a super tiny list anymore haha.
The new warlord trait where you can attack first no matter what is as devastating as I thought when I gave it to Bjorn. He ripped apart half a berzerker unit, survived and proceeded to finish them. The same zerkers that attack twice with re rolls from characters, haha.
I love the point reductions to wulfen and terminators. Running 10 termies is a joy when they get to close combat. Arjac looks like he went up 5 points but I do not mind that at all, he's an absolute beast.
I personally ran razorback assault cannon load out, but those went up. Anyone run troops any differently?
KingCorpus wrote: The new warlord trait where you can attack first no matter what is as devastating as I thought when I gave it to Bjorn. He ripped apart half a berzerker unit, survived and proceeded to finish them. The same zerkers that attack twice with re rolls from characters, haha.
I love the point reductions to wulfen and terminators. Running 10 termies is a joy when they get to close combat. Arjac looks like he went up 5 points but I do not mind that at all, he's an absolute beast.
I personally ran razorback assault cannon load out, but those went up. Anyone run troops any differently?
All good to hear! Especially since Bjorn went down in points himself!
Did you run Wulfen and Terminators in the same list? And did you use the rumored command point ability for outflanking?
I also have the razorback/ac squads set up but looking at the new reduction in drop pod points I'm taking a second look at putting 5 man squads of grey hunters with a wolf guard pack leader in and loading them up with plasma and dropping them on my enemy to disrupt them while the TWC, etc, move on up.
The Lucious Droppod that lets us drop our awesomesauce shield/axe dreads into someones face also went down a TON of points. It was 110, now it's only 80!
KingCorpus wrote: The new warlord trait where you can attack first no matter what is as devastating as I thought when I gave it to Bjorn. He ripped apart half a berzerker unit, survived and proceeded to finish them. The same zerkers that attack twice with re rolls from characters, haha.
I love the point reductions to wulfen and terminators. Running 10 termies is a joy when they get to close combat. Arjac looks like he went up 5 points but I do not mind that at all, he's an absolute beast.
I personally ran razorback assault cannon load out, but those went up. Anyone run troops any differently?
Unfortunately that's not quite the strategem we got, its still very good though.
Trait: you can always choose your warlord to fight first if they didn’t charge. If the enemy charged, they go first then alternate.
So if you use the warlord as a counter charger basically on bjorn he will shred most anything with 2 consecutive attack phases, or with his consolidate move shred next.
KingCorpus wrote: The new warlord trait where you can attack first no matter what is as devastating as I thought when I gave it to Bjorn. He ripped apart half a berzerker unit, survived and proceeded to finish them. The same zerkers that attack twice with re rolls from characters, haha.
I love the point reductions to wulfen and terminators. Running 10 termies is a joy when they get to close combat. Arjac looks like he went up 5 points but I do not mind that at all, he's an absolute beast.
I personally ran razorback assault cannon load out, but those went up. Anyone run troops any differently?
Unfortunately that's not quite the strategem we got, its still very good though.
Trait: you can always choose your warlord to fight first if they didn’t charge. If the enemy charged, they go first then alternate.
So if you use the warlord as a counter charger basically on bjorn he will shred most anything with 2 consecutive attack phases, or with his consolidate move shred next.
Where did you see that? The only information I've seen about the warlord trait was what Kingcorpus wrote. Unless you have a copy of the book already or it's been posted somewhere?
That's just how this ability works. Daemonettes have it too.
You are either in the group of the first strikers or second strikers. But who exactly in this group is actually the first depends on player activation. And since it's the enemies turn when he charges, he activates first.
Ragnar69 wrote: That's just how this ability works. Daemonettes have it too.
You are either in the group of the first strikers or second strikers. But who exactly in this group is actually the first depends on player activation. And since it's the enemies turn when he charges, he activates first.
I understand that's how the daemonette one works but I haven't seen a concrete leak of what the warlord trait is. I've only seen the rumors of what it is and its description was we fight first no matter what. That's why I asked if he had seen any concrete proof/leaks to the contrary. I'd be happy to be proven one way or the other with some concrete evidence as CH isn't out yet.
I wasn't able to run the termies and wulfen yet with new point values because I don't quite know them all just yet. But considering wulfen got a 50 point cut from how I run them, for sure going to see them again especially if theyre cheaper than termies...haha
@Cold Cash yes I ran it that way, i worded that so it sounded differently. my bad.
There's a picture of the trait over in a recent article on BoLS.
It reads: "You can always choose your Warlord to fight first in the Fight phase even if he didn't charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place."
So if he charges or it's your turn, he's fighting firs as if he charged. If he gets charged or is in combat during the opponent's turn then his 'fight group' becomes part of the alternating activations? Is that right?
If someone charges Björn (or whoever has the trait) they get to activate the charging unit to fight before Björn since it's their turn. If they make multiple charges they can fight with one charger and Björn gets to fight next before the rest of the chargers.
So it's really not "always fights first" but I suppose it's a decent trait.
How does everyone feel about twin heavy bolters on the razorbacks now that the twin assault cannons have gone up in price along with the razorbacks? It'll keep them cheaper and let them fire a bit while running the grey hunters up in their metal box.
Not as devastating I know but with the other point reductions it might be something to think about to save points for more Wulfen, Long Fangs, TWC, Terminators, etc.
If you want to bring transports for advancing grey hunters go with a rhino full of them instead of a razorback with twin heavy bolter and 6 grey hunters.
The ass can razorbacks are amazing as gun platforms, I usually keep them empty while the grey hunters act as their screeners.
You make a good point. I just think I'd rather sink the points into a protective metal box that can bring some valuable support fire instead of more bolt guns. Mainly to save in total points for the TWC or other things I run behind them as I advance. I can still max out the plasma and instead of an extra boltgun I tend to bring a wolf guard with a frost sword/combi plasma.
I did some number comparisons tonight just for fun. Even with the deathwind upgrade Drop pods are cheaper than the razorbacks now by a significant amount. Even the heavy bolter razorbacks. With the deathwind missle launcher attached you get almost the same effectiveness as the twin heavy bolter with a decent roll.
With the decreased cost of the TWC as well I'm debating on having my Grey Hunters in DPs and dropping in to disrupt lines while the TWC rush up.
I feel like drop pods and some of our other stuff can definitely come back in a big way now. Along with the outflank strategem that can be used on Wulfen.
I'm still not impressed by Björn even with the WL trait. I mean he has 5 attacks so he can kill 5 models in combat at best. Sure the D6 damage does a number on multi-wound models but if no such model exists or is bubblewrapped or whatever I just don't see Björn shine. And Björn is going to be toast if charged by a unit that has good AP and damage, say Thunder Hammer termies or the like, because the chargers can still strike before him.
YMMV but I've never gotten much out of him really.
IMHO bjorn is ok, maybe even great but basically all the SW units are quite expensive point wise, even after chapter approved release. And the HQ dread is utterly expensive compared to the other HQs.
Njal is 153, arjac 145, a wolf lord on thunderwolf with the relic sword only 115 and he's an absolute beast that can also buff shooting with his rerolls, like bjorn but for half the points. Other generic HQs are cheaper.
I'm not impressed by Bjorn either, but not for its stats, he looks amazing, but the fact that I would be forced to save too many points to include him. And I'm struggling all the time thinking about SW lists because too many things end up out of the 2000 points budget
Weazel wrote: I'm still not impressed by Björn even with the WL trait. I mean he has 5 attacks so he can kill 5 models in combat at best. Sure the D6 damage does a number on multi-wound models but if no such model exists or is bubblewrapped or whatever I just don't see Björn shine. And Björn is going to be toast if charged by a unit that has good AP and damage, say Thunder Hammer termies or the like, because the chargers can still strike before him.
YMMV but I've never gotten much out of him really.
Wish he had a 5+ invul or something... he's very squishy for his cost despite having T8. Still, if you do get him into CC with something valuable you're most likely going to absolutely wreck it with 5 S12 -4AP D6 damage that hits on 2s and can reroll both hit and wound rolls. Also, you should make maximum use of the fact that he's a character with <10 wounds. He's got a good 8" movement stat so with smart maneuvering you should be able to get him into combat unscathed.
After having a read of CA, I have to say Cunning of the Wolf looks quite useful. I imagine putting a unit of MM Long Fangs or combi-melta Wolf Guard up field would ruin someones day. The option for Wolf Guard Storm Bolter is also appealing. A full 40 shots into a infantry screen is a nice option to have.
With the new stratagem I'm trying a list with TWC, wulfen and bikes deployed plus a second outflanking unit of wulfen and deep striking terminators. 10-12 long fangs, 3 min units of grey hunters and 2 HQs (among njal, arjac, wolf lord, wolf priest) to complete the list. Sometimes I have some points spared and I also include 5-6 fenrisian wolves.
I'm glad we now have the possibility to play a pure SW list, I didn't abandoned twin ass cannons razorbacks but I love the typical SW units and thanks to CA I'm really enjoying playing them for the first time in this edition.
Weazel wrote: So what is the full wording on the outflank stratagem? Infantry only?
It's good enough already, even if it is "infantry only". I can outflank a decently large pack of Wuflen (like 7-8 men strong). With reroll the charge ability they will be pretty scary. Moreover, it relive my Landraider or Spartan to carry something else, like Bloodclaws or WG Terminators.
I played my first game this weekend with the new CA rules and I have to say what a difference! I used Harald Death Wolf with a squad of wulfen and grey hunters in a drop pod. outflanked/deep struck into an open corner behind his lines and really did some work, not only in killing an exocrine and some huge flying monster but also creating a huge distraction that allowed my twc and other stuff deployed normally to advance more safely.
The much cheaper drop pod secured me line breaker at the end as well. They seem to be worth taking again finally.
I also ran into a situation where true grit would have been extremely useful. Thinking it’d be meh and situational I burned my cps earlier. He consolidated genestealers into my grey hunters from a Razorback he blew up. We did the true grit just for fun without counting it and I would have killed 4 of them instead of having to retreat and doing nothing.
ArmchairArbiter wrote: I played my first game this weekend with the new CA rules and I have to say what a difference! I used Harald Death Wolf with a squad of wulfen and grey hunters in a drop pod. outflanked/deep struck into an open corner behind his lines and really did some work, not only in killing an exocrine and some huge flying monster but also creating a huge distraction that allowed my twc and other stuff deployed normally to advance more safely.
The much cheaper drop pod secured me line breaker at the end as well. They seem to be worth taking again finally.
I also ran into a situation where true grit would have been extremely useful. Thinking it’d be meh and situational I burned my cps earlier. He convoluted genestealers into my grey hunters in a Razorback he blew up. We did the true grit just for fun without counting it and I would have killed 4 of them instead of having to retreat and doing nothing.
That is true, I didn't think of true grit in that fashion, but it really could be situational / useful. Instead of falling back you can keep shooting. Good point out.
Weazel wrote: So what is the full wording on the outflank stratagem? Infantry only?
It's good enough already, even if it is "infantry only". I can outflank a decently large pack of Wuflen (like 7-8 men strong). With reroll the charge ability they will be pretty scary. Moreover, it relive my Landraider or Spartan to carry something else, like Bloodclaws or WG Terminators.
Never said it wasn't good. Just hadn't seen a full leak of it is all.
Between that stratagem and Wulfen actually becoming significantly cheaper it's becoming very tempting to buy a box or two even if I still loathe the models...
So I can forgive all the other Space Wolf players if you haven't been following the Dark Angel teasers, yesterday however an interesting strategem came up.
Today - more DA fluff, including pretty solid 'reroll 1' if you stand still and the ability to buff plasma as well.
So - I'm splashing some DA.
I'm looking to take a DA Spearhead with an Interrogator-Chaplain with a jump pack and power fist and a small pile of hellblasters. The hellblasters can be left alone to burn their way through things and don't need a re-roll 1's buff as DA. (Presuming they stand still.)
The Chaplain will be faced off with a jump pack wolf priest, the LD 10 bubble on the wolf priest, combined with the self-heal and ability to deploy both of them via jump pack if necessary is my current thought.
I was originally thinking just a patrol, but the benefit of stationary re-rolls opens up a good synergy with plasma that the wolves don't have.
Blackie wrote: Wulfen and wolf guard terminators can become absolute beasts with that buff.
Arjack the Rockfist comes to mind, he will be really good and have enough wounds to eat that 50% chance MW. Compared to Wuflen or Terminators who only have 2 wounds.
But arjac is a single dude. With the stratagem you can buff 5-10 models in the same unit. Which means more attacks and more wounds in total than arjac.
The stratagem could have made TWC absolutely amazing, but unfortunately it can only be applied to infantries.
Blackie wrote: With the new stratagem I'm trying a list with TWC, wulfen and bikes deployed plus a second outflanking unit of wulfen and deep striking terminators. 10-12 long fangs, 3 min units of grey hunters and 2 HQs (among njal, arjac, wolf lord, wolf priest) to complete the list. Sometimes I have some points spared and I also include 5-6 fenrisian wolves.
I'm glad we now have the possibility to play a pure SW list, I didn't abandoned twin ass cannons razorbacks but I love the typical SW units and thanks to CA I'm really enjoying playing them for the first time in this edition.
So I can forgive all the other Space Wolf players if you haven't been following the Dark Angel teasers, yesterday however an interesting strategem came up.
Today - more DA fluff, including pretty solid 'reroll 1' if you stand still and the ability to buff plasma as well.
So - I'm splashing some DA.
I'm looking to take a DA Spearhead with an Interrogator-Chaplain with a jump pack and power fist and a small pile of hellblasters. The hellblasters can be left alone to burn their way through things and don't need a re-roll 1's buff as DA. (Presuming they stand still.)
The Chaplain will be faced off with a jump pack wolf priest, the LD 10 bubble on the wolf priest, combined with the self-heal and ability to deploy both of them via jump pack if necessary is my current thought.
I was originally thinking just a patrol, but the benefit of stationary re-rolls opens up a good synergy with plasma that the wolves don't have.
Question:
Does anyone think that this Strategem is worth TWO Command Points? Because I could possibly take like an Aux detachment just to get access to this. I don't really want to start a whole collection of Dark Angels, but getting a bump like this to a beatstick character would be super great.
Blackie wrote: With the new stratagem I'm trying a list with TWC, wulfen and bikes deployed plus a second outflanking unit of wulfen and deep striking terminators. 10-12 long fangs, 3 min units of grey hunters and 2 HQs (among njal, arjac, wolf lord, wolf priest) to complete the list. Sometimes I have some points spared and I also include 5-6 fenrisian wolves.
I'm glad we now have the possibility to play a pure SW list, I didn't abandoned twin ass cannons razorbacks but I love the typical SW units and thanks to CA I'm really enjoying playing them for the first time in this edition.
What is your go-to for long fangs loadouts?
Typically 6 dudes with 5 lascannons. Even 6 with 4 lascannons or 5 with 4 lascannos work good. Occasionally I've tried 6 with 5 lascannons and 6 with 5 missile launchers in a list with no vehicles. I've also played a unit of 6 with 5 heavy bolters in a rhino or razorback, IMHO not that great. Never tried plasma cannons in this edition and I don't own long fangs with multi meltas.
After reading through Chapter Approved and the point changes/stratagems for Space Wolves, I find myself wanting to perhaps get started in earnest on my own Sons of Russ. I recently purchased Burning of Prospero at a huge discount, and I want to make one of the Mk. III squads into a unit of SW Gray Hunters. I already have one squad of Gray Hunters built, with 2 Plasmaguns. Should I put more Plasmas on this new squad, or should I perhaps go with Meltas instead? Are Meltas a good option for them? Perhaps out of a newly-discounted Drop Pod?
Question:
Does anyone think that this Strategem is worth TWO Command Points? Because I could possibly take like an Aux detachment just to get access to this. I don't really want to start a whole collection of Dark Angels, but getting a bump like this to a beatstick character would be super great.
I'd take a patrol with an ablative scout squad with 'concealed positions' rather than burn the second CP. It's 5 inexpensive models to get your double ended beat stick.
ZergSmasher wrote: After reading through Chapter Approved and the point changes/stratagems for Space Wolves, I find myself wanting to perhaps get started in earnest on my own Sons of Russ. I recently purchased Burning of Prospero at a huge discount, and I want to make one of the Mk. III squads into a unit of SW Gray Hunters. I already have one squad of Gray Hunters built, with 2 Plasmaguns. Should I put more Plasmas on this new squad, or should I perhaps go with Meltas instead? Are Meltas a good option for them? Perhaps out of a newly-discounted Drop Pod?
Plasma guns are way better than meltas in this edition. Drop pods received a cheaper price but with the 9'' limit you can't arrive in melta range. Maybe multi meltas can work with pods since their range in better and they can arrive in melta range.
I just miss dropping my dreadnought with multimelta behind enemy lines and popping a predator in the rear then hiding behind the drop pod for the next few turns as my opponent trys to get revenge on my dread. Lol good times. :p
Azuza001 wrote: I just miss dropping my dreadnought with multimelta behind enemy lines and popping a predator in the rear then hiding behind the drop pod for the next few turns as my opponent trys to get revenge on my dread. Lol good times. :p
The forgeworld drop pod that transports a single dreadnought is cheaper than the standard dreadnoughts so you can still attempt to do that .
ArmchairArbiter wrote: If one were to add a Knight to a Space Wolf army... what Knight would you guys purchase? I had forgotten there were so many variants.
I have run a Knight Crusader with my Wolves to great effect. Battle Cannon, Avenger Cannon and Stormspear missiles makes him a beast for the volume of fire he can put out. My experience to date has been that Knight melee weapons are really only worth taking if you are facing another super-heavy. Against anything else, massed stomp attacks are far more effective which means the best use of the Knight chassis is to load it with as many guns as possible and blaze away.
It doesn't usually last to the end of the battle but it does not go down easily and it does not go down alone. It normally easily makes it points back and can absorb the firepower of most armies for a turn or two giving your Wolves the chance they need to get up close where they excel.
Managed to end my losing streak in large part thanks to the new stratagem. I spent 3CPs to have 3 units outflank.
Wulfen arriving on one flank getting a 9" charge, then drop podding in 20 bloods claws within 12" of them for the re-roll buff.
On the other flank I had outflanking Long Fangs with multi-meltas - they totally whiffed. If they had done their job I would have won more comfortably.
Then I had a unit of Wolf Guard with storm bolters also in outflank which I left till turn 2 to arrive, after the Wulfen and blood claws had cleared a hole for them to arrive in the backline.
Rest of my list was more Long Fangs with lascannons (also whiffed their shots before getting minced by a daemon prince), two units of grey hunters who performed admirably as objective campers, a fire raptor which I easily had my best game with (60pt-ish drop from Chapter Approved helped) - it completely chewed through marines and cultists whilst also threatening armour with its lascannons.
Also included a Wolf Priest with jump pack - not sure that's the way to run him though. I had real difficulty getting him close enough to combat units to give his buff. Maybe a bike would be better for the 20" advance move? Not sure yet.
Finally a Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf with TH and plasma pistol - really liked him - especially when he caught up to the Fire Raptor! Have often run Bjorn in HQ but he's just too slow/too many points.
Patch wrote: Managed to end my losing streak in large part thanks to the new stratagem. I spent 3CPs to have 3 units outflank.
Wulfen arriving on one flank getting a 9" charge, then drop podding in 20 bloods claws within 12" of them for the re-roll buff.
On the other flank I had outflanking Long Fangs with multi-meltas - they totally whiffed. If they had done their job I would have won more comfortably.
Then I had a unit of Wolf Guard with storm bolters also in outflank which I left till turn 2 to arrive, after the Wulfen and blood claws had cleared a hole for them to arrive in the backline.
Rest of my list was more Long Fangs with lascannons (also whiffed their shots before getting minced by a daemon prince), two units of grey hunters who performed admirably as objective campers, a fire raptor which I easily had my best game with (60pt-ish drop from Chapter Approved helped) - it completely chewed through marines and cultists whilst also threatening armour with its lascannons.
Also included a Wolf Priest with jump pack - not sure that's the way to run him though. I had real difficulty getting him close enough to combat units to give his buff. Maybe a bike would be better for the 20" advance move? Not sure yet.
Finally a Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf with TH and plasma pistol - really liked him - especially when he caught up to the Fire Raptor! Have often run Bjorn in HQ but he's just too slow/too many points.
Good explanations. I find that it depends on my strategy and the rest of the army that I go with Bjorn or WL on Thunderwolf. If I am expecting to be on the defensive I go Bjorn and some venerable dreads with blizzard shield / great axe. If I am going to be on the offensive Bjorn is too slow like you said and it's thunderwolf time.
Ooh, I like the idea of outflanking some Multimeltas close to the enemy. I don't have my CA book in front of me, but does the strat allow them to pop up like the Alpha Legion guys that use Forward Operatives, or do they count as having walked on during that turn (and therefore suffer the -1 to hit on heavy weapons)?
Hey friends.
I played my first game post chapter approved. Tabled a necron army. Outflanking wulfen were undoubtedly the MVPs if the game. They were destroying from the first to the last turn. I’m so happy and can’t wait until we actually have a codex. Named hero cost reduction made me decide to run bjorn and Njall. Won’t leave home without them now! In 2k I’ll probably run Arjac as well. Sucks that the razorbacks and assault canons went up, but man the new stratagems are great and all the other point cost reductions are more than welcome! I’d like to see some rules for adding attack bikes to wolfguard bike squads. I always liked the look of the side cars. But seem uselesss with swiftclaws only. Sorry if my rant was pointless. For Russ!!!
