Re: the primarch discussion, I've played the bad guys and the unpopular choices (Troll Shaman here) in enough franchises to know: people who play the Big Damn Heroes get absolutely pissed when someone else gets something without them getting compensation. As loathe as I am to admit it the loyalist marines are GW's moneymakers, and if you think the whining about primaris is bad you would not believe the hell that would have been unleashed if GW had put out multiple Chaos primarchs without giving the loyalists any of their own.
Arachnofiend wrote: Re: the primarch discussion, I've played the bad guys and the unpopular choices (Troll Shaman here) in enough franchises to know: people who play the Big Damn Heroes get absolutely pissed when someone else gets something without them getting compensation. As loathe as I am to admit it the loyalist marines are GW's moneymakers, and if you think the whining about primaris is bad you would not believe the hell that would have been unleashed if GW had put out multiple Chaos primarchs without giving the loyalists any of their own.
I play loyalist marines and I would have loved that! Guilliman is literally the worst thing that has happened to 40K in its entire history. But, yeah, you're probably right about it on general level.
Crimson wrote: It is not about who's winning, it is about the themes. If you don't get, you don't get it.
Yeah. A Demi God comes back from the dead basically and everyone thinks he can save the day, and try as he might he really isn't helping so much. The theme of fighting the losing fight to the end? Noble BUT very dark.
Crimson wrote: It is not about who's winning, it is about the themes. If you don't get, you don't get it.
Yeah. A Demi God comes back from the dead basically and everyone thinks he can save the day, and try as he might he really isn't helping so much. The theme of fighting the losing fight to the end? Noble BUT very dark.
I actually like Bobby G being back, it's mostly the follow up I have an issue with. I hate the Primaris concept since it means three things. At some point my army is getting squatted. Second GW is launching a whole new range of marines which is not what the game or background needed. Third, they continue GW's incredibly boring trend of pruning more and more options from the game and focusing increasingly on mono pose/semi monopose models.
I think it is pretty obvious based on the releases over the past few years that they want to move the entire model range to a larger scale. Everything just keeps getting bigger, even the bases. They want bigger models that can have more detail and are maybe easier to paint and maybe they think more visually appealing? Or maybe just because they will be a different scale from other games so that people will have a harder time mixing in third party bits and models? Or maybe just to encourage everyone to have to buy all new models?
Whatever the reasons, it seems clear that after a pretty good stretch of consistency, the scale is growing rapidly again.
Chaos gained nothing that would be new to them, but they have gained a fair amount of stuff we never knew about or didn't have a build up for (Plague Burst Crawler, Blighthaulers, the various Death Guard HQ characters, Tzaangors, Mutalith Vortex Beast, the Thousand Sons new guns). They didn't gain new stuff as far as the characters would be concerned in setting, but to the players a lot of new stuff has come out for Chaos, and we have a strong hint that more can be coming.
But I was talking about the setting, not the game.
The setting had no word about any of that stuff before, so it's stuff the setting gained, even if (from the perspective of the people in the setting) "it was there all along".
fraser1191 wrote: Everyone keeps crowing about Guilliman. Poor magnus was the first primarch back and nobody cares enough to remember
They sweep any contradictory facts under the rug to preserve a narrative that it's Guilliman who is somehow the trigger for everything. In fact I want to point out that until recently the only thing he did in the lore was attack Fenris once and lost. Suddenly he's a lot more active and doing stuff other than being Tzeentch's trophy wife, and so is Mortarion. We have new stuff happening with these two and new stuff brought into the game because of them, but it's somehow Guilliman's fault we have new stuff in the game.
fraser1191 wrote: Everyone keeps crowing about Guilliman. Poor magnus was the first primarch back and nobody cares enough to remember
Listen, there is one very good reason why Magnus coming back and getting a gorgeous new model is great and should not be even remotely comparable to Guilliman:
In fairness Morty and Magnus being about and doing stuff is something that to one degree or another has always been in the background, that IS differant from Gulliman's return, narrativly speaking
Crimson wrote: Gathering Storm basically ruined the setting, and that is unfortunate.
I wouldn't say it ruined the setting, but it was definitely a "Jumped the Shark" moment. 40K went from a tale of the slow, eventual downfall and destruction of mankind to a hopeful age of heroes fighting against the darkness.
Primaris don't bother me. Returning Primarchs and other GW characters do. Personally, I like 40K being about my dudes, my armies, not GW's superhero collection.
But the ongoing crap (IMO) writing thats been poluting the Space Wolf story for years was ok?
If you have actually read the fluff - the Imperium is in a worse state, RG is a near broken man fighting to preserve a nightmare he helped create - if anythng its more grim dark.
Rule #1: no one who complains about the lore actually reads the lore.
I'm mostly joking, but it has been a thing that I've noticed over the years: the biggest complaints about lore are usually based on "the memes".
I've read about 60-70% of Return of the Primarch and it's....bad. It's an Over-the-Top bolter porn summary of a bad trope-filled fanfic. And I don't use any of those words lightly - they aren't something I'd normally say about someone's writings.
More detailed breakdown in spoiler - some spoilers
Spoiler:
Breaking it down further - the story is written at a summary level; to save time/space you are assumed to be familiar with all the models GW produces that are mentioned in the story. The action in the story is fast and furious and you don't get the character's reactions (if any) to what's occurring around them. It's action for action's sake. For example, when Bobby G. and company arrive at the Web portal on Luna and are attacked, Bobby G or the others don't have any sort of emotional reaction when the accompanying marines are ambushed. There's no surprise, no anguish at the loss, no passing curiosity in what just happened - it just happens and it gives Bobby G. and Magnus a one-page excuse to have a superhero fight, with a close-up on the two's momentary engagement. Then, as suddenly as the senseless fight starts, it's over, we move to the doorstep of the Emperor's palace, Cipher gets nabbed (not really, of course - without even bothering to mention anything about his imprisonment, plans or escape - other than "he does because he's Cipher!") and then the story ends. If Bobby G. is in anguish then, I sure don't feel it - because we don't get any insight into his state of mind, what he asks, what he sees, what he may even hear from the Emperor - if anything.
Overall, it felt like something that would have been at most a page's summary in the Ultramarine Codex, stretched thinly out over 96 pages.
[/spoiler]
I can't comment on the Space Wolf story, I've not read it, but I fear they probably used the same writing/writer for it.
Someone also mentioned about how having characters, like Bobby G., in the game detracted from the game now as opposed to how they've always been in the game in the past. Well, for one thing, at least up to around 5th, they could only be included in fairly large games (I think it was 2,000 points or more) and only with the approval of the opponent (which I never did, they are some of the most broken gak in this game). Now, you can't seem to run an army without them. It's like being forced to have Rommel, Patton or even Eisenhower in every single WW2 skirmish game you play.
BrianDavion wrote: In fairness Morty and Magnus being about and doing stuff is something that to one degree or another has always been in the background, that IS differant from Gulliman's return, narrativly speaking
Yes, absolutely! It doesn't change the fluff, the chaos Primarchs have always been there. The point of the Imperium was that it is a rotting corpse run by uncaring oligarchs, it's glory days long past it, heroes of the old being barely remembered legends. That one of those mythical heroes not only returns but effectively becomes the leader of the Imperium and starts to run the show is a gigantic change; even if you liked it, you must recognise that!
Crimson wrote: It is not about who's winning, it is about the themes. If you don't get, you don't get it.
No you are not understanding that the theme remains the same - the fact that RG has golden armour does not mean that its suddenly changed the "theme" - thats a very shallow way to look at it and hating one charcter does not mean that it does not fit the universe - it just means you hate that character,
I've read about 60-70% of Return of the Primarch and it's....bad. It's an Over-the-Top bolter porn summary of a bad trope-filled fanfic. And I don't use any of those words lightly - they aren't something I'd normally say about someone's writings.
If Bobby G. is in anguish then, I sure don't feel it - because we don't get any insight into his state of mind, what he asks, what he sees, what he may even hear from the Emperor - if anything.
"Sigh" have you even read page 40? The entire page is about his state of mind and feelings of dispair, exhaustion and shock at what the Imperium has become.
The writing is pretty standard for a GW campaign pack, its ok, it rattles along and they try to throw in character insights/POV which for some reason you are not reading....
Space Wolves - flick through the codex and look at McMurder Murder the murder dreadnought from Planet Murder with his mates Wolf McWolf on his Wolf Wolf and wielding his wolfy wolf sword. the Cmapign pack is not awesome but is a work o genius compared to that dross.
Crimson wrote:It is not about who's winning, it is about the themes. If you don't get, you don't get it.
I get the themes. I still think they're there.
Crimson wrote:Yes, absolutely! It doesn't change the fluff, the chaos Primarchs have always been there.
And all the loyalist Primarchs have been set up as possible to return, including Guilliman, who was pretty much said in writing that people believed he could heal and come back.
The loyalists weren't in the field, but it was definitely established that nearly all of them could come back at a moment's notice.
The point of the Imperium was that it is a rotting corpse run by uncaring oligarchs, it's glory days long past it, heroes of the old being barely remembered legends. That one of those mythical heroes not only returns but effectively becomes the leader of the Imperium and starts to run the show is a gigantic change; even if you liked it, you must recognise that!
And that point is still there, because Guilliman realises that he is not the "mythical hero" (people attribute things to him that he knows he didn't do, he outright says that a lot of the reforms he made were wrong, and he is not the same Guilliman that people think he is), and even his "starting to run the show" is more of an "appease the powers that be, and try and correct the mistakes of my past and that of the Imperium for the good of humanity".
Yes, we now have a story arc of rebuilding, repentance, and personal development, but it doesn't come at the cost of the "Imperium is corrupt and outdated" theme, in my opinion.
I want to point out that in Dark Imperium it clearly states that Guilliman's hair is starting to thin and it's going gray at the temples.
Considering he's one of the younger Primarchs (due to spending so much time in stasis), this is more likely a sign of stress. And I just want to comment that if he's that stressed out over everything then it's clear he's not doing anything quickly, easilly or effortlessly.
ClockworkZion wrote: I want to point out that in Dark Imperium it clearly states that Guilliman's hair is starting to thin and it's going gray at the temples.
Considering he's one of the younger Primarchs (due to spending so much time in stasis), this is more likely a sign of stress. And I just want to comment that if he's that stressed out over everything then it's clear he's not doing anything quickly, easilly or effortlessly.
yeah I just started Plague war and am looking forward to more little details like that, Haley did a great job with DI when you consider that the story was ultimately just a tie in novel to the boxed set that was primarily a "these are primaris marines you want to buy them" type project
When Russ or the Lion comes out. I doubt anyone will say something like..."that is the worst thing that ever happend in 40k".
Only because they were not the first. I really don't want any more loyalist primarchs ever, but ultimately their impact would be lesser as one has already returned and ruined the setting. But yes, I would have called it the 'worst thing ever' regardless of which primarch it was, so it's not an Ultramarine thing.
When Russ or the Lion comes out. I doubt anyone will say something like..."that is the worst thing that ever happend in 40k".
Only because they were not the first. I really don't want any more loyalist primarchs ever, but ultimately their impact would be lesser as one has already returned and ruined the setting. But yes, I would have called it the 'worst thing ever' regardless of which primarch it was, so it's not an Ultramarine thing.
So much hyperbole. It's just comical at this point
When Russ or the Lion comes out. I doubt anyone will say something like..."that is the worst thing that ever happend in 40k".
Only because they were not the first. I really don't want any more loyalist primarchs ever, but ultimately their impact would be lesser as one has already returned and ruined the setting. But yes, I would have called it the 'worst thing ever' regardless of which primarch it was, so it's not an Ultramarine thing.
Well there is tons of bad and rewritten fluff in the 40k universe. I wouldn't put the blame entirely on Guilliman.
I will agree that rules wise Gman is the worst thing that could have happened to the space marine codex. His rules really put a dampner on how good they can make a space marine units because if it can reroll hits and wounds just for standing next to an untargetable character...that is just silly.
When Russ or the Lion comes out. I doubt anyone will say something like..."that is the worst thing that ever happend in 40k".
Only because they were not the first. I really don't want any more loyalist primarchs ever, but ultimately their impact would be lesser as one has already returned and ruined the setting. But yes, I would have called it the 'worst thing ever' regardless of which primarch it was, so it's not an Ultramarine thing.
Can't you just not play with the characters, only play with people who don't use them, play anything before 7.5, or set your games/narratives either before Gathering Storm or in some random area in Imperium Nihilus? /sarcasm/
Can't you just not play with the characters, only play with people who don't use them, play anything before 7.5, or set your games/narratives either before Gathering Storm or in some random area in Imperium Nihilus? /sarcasm/
Not sure why you used a sarcasm tag, that's totally valid.
Stux wrote: Not sure why you used a sarcasm tag, that's totally valid.
I used it to show that it was just as valid as Crimson's first comment, but I assumed that Crimson's comment was made in jest. Just showing that my comment was just as serious as his.
I mean, could you imagine seriously suggesting to someone to stop playing 40k because they preferred the way the story was going, and you personally didn't like the way the story was going? That would be pretty harsh.
Stux wrote: Not sure why you used a sarcasm tag, that's totally valid.
I used it to show that it was just as valid as Crimson's first comment, but I assumed that Crimson's comment was made in jest. Just showing that my comment was just as serious as his.
I mean, could you imagine seriously suggesting to someone to stop playing 40k because they preferred the way the story was going, and you personally didn't like the way the story was going?
That would be pretty harsh.
It is really about the lore. HH is all about Primarchs. If more Primarchs return, then 40K will be about that too. I really don't think that is a good thing, the two eras being very distinct is a great feature.
Crimson wrote: It is really about the lore. HH is all about Primarchs. If more Primarchs return, then 40K will be about that too. I really don't think that is a good thing, the two eras being very distinct is a great feature.
Now 40k also involves Primarchs. You might not like it, which is fine. As you pointed out, there's other historical eras to explore, and even geographic ones, where you can avoid the current 40k.
Personally, I think having the two eras being linked makes the universe feel coherent. There's fun and narrative story in being able to trace an event that happened in M31 and seeing the consequences, conflicts, and causality come through in M41 is good, in my opinion.
One thing I would prefer is that Bobby G wasn't such a crutch to fix how kinda meh Space Marines, particularly non Primaris are if you want a chance against the more competitive lists other factions can take. I don't mind him being back, I do mind that he is treated as an assumed auto include.
I feel like the sarcasm tag was necessary, most of these posts can be read in a sassy tone
Also on the note of HH I'd say GW wants to mimic its success. We all know FW is more expensive than GW, which is already expensive all things considered. You want a 30k army? You could probably get 2 40k armies for that price. Well I'm from Canada so definitely.
Anyway point is HH is basically the same but strictly marines with primarchs while being way more expensive.
Crimson wrote: It is really about the lore. HH is all about Primarchs. If more Primarchs return, then 40K will be about that too. I really don't think that is a good thing, the two eras being very distinct is a great feature.
Your take is invalid since Daemon Primarchs were involved in the post-Scouring lore and most of the living loyalists have some kind of foretelling that they'll return. And these aren't legends like King Arthur, but rather something based in a setting where you have people who can actually see the future.
As much as you hate the Primarchs (and can't provide any actual proof from the lore that Guilliman as actually accomplished anything tangible to make the Imperium better instead of memes, hyperbole and feelings) the fact remains that 40k has always been about it's big damn heroes having big damn hero moments and acting as beacons of hope for others. Hell, the Lord Solar himself reclaimed one of the largest swaths of the galaxy since the Great Crusade itself but no one is going on about how that breaks the setting. Guilliman restocked some beaten down chapters, established some new ones and claimed a victory that didn't exist for the sake of good publicity and yet he's somehow more impactful than the Lord Solar was (despite reclaiming no territory, and even losing some since he came back).
Maybe you liked the way it was in 3rd when characters needed your opponent's permission or something, but a lot of us like having a center peice to build our armies around, and to spend hours carefully painting. Primarchs are just the newest center pieces, and if you don't like them then ignore them and move on. Being so hung up on something that has had no real impact other than putting bigger pants on the Marines since his return is just silly.
I'm half-hoping he comes back completely twisted by the warp and barely clinging to his humanity but I know we can't expect anything cool out of the Space Wolves.
I honestly like the primaris and primarch stuff from a fluff viewpoint.
Yes, i understand that the theme of the big old degraded imperium slowly falling without a chance is what 40K has been about for years, but you know what? It's boring.
As a Tyranid player i love these new developments, because until now the fluff for me has been "Do what you want, lose or win doesn't matter, you are guaranteed to eat the galaxy in any case, they have as much chances of stopping you as a puppy has of stopping earth rotation."
If the Imperium acutally gets some new toys and in the face of extinction finally manages to cure some of his bad habits, this makes the story more interesting. There is a big difference between "Losing fight with no hope at all" and "Losing fight with the chance of a miracle". The second is narratively much more interesting than the first.
GW understood this correctly with WFB, the empire had no chances to win, and the setting had lost its interest. So they actually let the bad guy win the round and went to the next one, where the situation is extremely bad, but at least a fight is possible.
GW has let chaos win the round (No idea why chaos fans say that narratively they didn't get anything from Gathering storm, they actually won!) and went to the next one again, with the galaxy split in two by a huge warp rift.
Gman and primaris may be not doing much for the imperium, but is a sign that something is changing and i like it. We may come to a point when the imperium can actually fight an impossibly uphill battle (which is interesting) instead of just delaying the inevitable (boring, at least for those who don't play imperium).
Spoletta wrote: I honestly like the primaris and primarch stuff from a fluff viewpoint.
Yes, i understand that the theme of the big old degraded imperium slowly falling without a chance is what 40K has been about for years, but you know what? It's boring.
As a Tyranid player i love these new developments, because until now the fluff for me has been "Do what you want, lose or win doesn't matter, you are guaranteed to eat the galaxy in any case, they have as much chances of stopping you as a puppy has of stopping earth rotation."
If the Imperium acutally gets some new toys and in the face of extinction finally manages to cure some of his bad habits, this makes the story more interesting. There is a big difference between "Losing fight with no hope at all" and "Losing fight with the chance of a miracle". The second is narratively much more interesting than the first.
GW understood this correctly with WFB, the empire had no chances to win, and the setting had lost its interest. So they actually let the bad guy win the round and went to the next one, where the situation is extremely bad, but at least a fight is possible.
GW has let chaos win the round (No idea why chaos fans say that narratively they didn't get anything from Gathering storm, they actually won!) and went to the next one again, with the galaxy split in two by a huge warp rift.
Gman and primaris may be not doing much for the imperium, but is a sign that something is changing and i like it. We may come to a point when the imperium can actually fight an impossibly uphill battle (which is interesting) instead of just delaying the inevitable (boring, at least for those who don't play imperium).
So they went from fairly unique setting to dime in a dozen setting. The "situation is bad but hope is possible" is sooooo common it's nothing new. Dime in a dozen.
And not sure how AOS situation is improvement...Eternal war is also boring as no matter what you do it's not going to end up in win for anybody. When both sides have never ending supply of warriors it's basically automatic deadlock.
I prefer a dime in a dozen which is interesting to a special snowflake which is boring.
As long as you keep this setup where humanity must lose at all costs, all your narrative will always be "Here look, the heroes won the day in this battle. Oh by the way while this was happening they lost the bigger battle off screen". 100% of the times. You are always shown the little event where they win and are always told that the bad guys have won in the larger scale. So if you happen to play the bad guys, you always get said that you are winning and yet you lose in all narrations. This.Gets.Boring.
Also, as a bad guy, you will never get handed significant wins, since the imperium could not take a blow like that and the setting would be done for.
AoS narrative is much better in this regard. You have the forces of Sigmar which get some meaningful wins, but this also means that they can be handed some quite big blows. This is how a war of this scale should be, give and take punches all the time. If you don't allow one of the sides to be able to recover some ground, you also become unable to take ground from it (40K for the last 20 years). Gathering storm is the first time that the Chaos manages to score a significant win with real effects on the imperium. This means that to keep the narrative going, you must also allow imperium to score big sometimes, even if in the end they are always the underdogs.
And what is this stuff about "never ending supply of warriors"? I guess you don't know much about AoS right? Only Chaos (as always) has an ending amount of daemons to use.
tneva82 wrote:So they went from fairly unique setting to dime in a dozen setting. The "situation is bad but hope is possible" is sooooo common it's nothing new. Dime in a dozen.
Unique doesn't mean enjoyable. While 40k was enjoyable for a time, the fatigue of the setting never changing and the constant "there's no hoooooooooope" being about as subtle as a freight train was weighing me down.
While what they have done is more character based, it's not "dime a dozen" any more than the original was uniquely grimdark. In fact, the main things that I see about 40k that make it unique compared to other sci-fi franchises is the constant ultraviolence, the barbaric methods employed by all sides, the aesthetic design, and the quasi-religious aspects. That is unchanged with Gathering Storm.
And not sure how AOS situation is improvement...Eternal war is also boring as no matter what you do it's not going to end up in win for anybody. When both sides have never ending supply of warriors it's basically automatic deadlock.
And that wasn't 40k too? 40k was being kept in a deadlock for so long it became a plot point! (13th Black Crusade/Octarius War/Armageddon)
tneva82 wrote:So they went from fairly unique setting to dime in a dozen setting. The "situation is bad but hope is possible" is sooooo common it's nothing new. Dime in a dozen.
Unique doesn't mean enjoyable. While 40k was enjoyable for a time, the fatigue of the setting never changing and the constant "there's no hoooooooooope" being about as subtle as a freight train was weighing me down.
While what they have done is more character based, it's not "dime a dozen" any more than the original was uniquely grimdark. In fact, the main things that I see about 40k that make it unique compared to other sci-fi franchises is the constant ultraviolence, the barbaric methods employed by all sides, the aesthetic design, and the quasi-religious aspects. That is unchanged with Gathering Storm.
And not sure how AOS situation is improvement...Eternal war is also boring as no matter what you do it's not going to end up in win for anybody. When both sides have never ending supply of warriors it's basically automatic deadlock.
And that wasn't 40k too? 40k was being kept in a deadlock for so long it became a plot point! (13th Black Crusade/Octarius War/Armageddon)
thing is, a static setting gets stale after awhile, and 40k was getting stale, it was the same old story day in day out, I mean, is it any wonder that so many of the 40k stories where underwhelming from a rules POV. Let's face it, you could write a pre-GS40k story with a friken mad libs generator.
"The Imperial world of *planet name here* is important because it is a rare source of *insert some Important tool of war* the planet is under threat by *enter antagionist faction* and must be defended by *enter IoM Faction(s)* .. OR THE IMPERIUM IS DOOOOOOOMED!... I mean it's doomed anyway! but it'll be doomed sooner... DOOOOOM!"
the post gathering storm era at least gives GW a chance to mix things up a little. heck the Indomatus crusade actually let's the IoM go on the offensive for once, sure it's to take back territory lost during the time jump but... it's SOMETHING.
Belive me, I can sympathize not liking where the wristers/devs are taking the storyline, I stopped following Battletech because I disliked where they where going with that. but change can be good, and in the case of 40k, I suspect change is nesscary as there are elements of the setting that proably need an over haul.
tneva82 wrote:And not sure how AOS situation is improvement...Eternal war is also boring as no matter what you do it's not going to end up in win for anybody. When both sides have never ending supply of warriors it's basically automatic deadlock.
And that wasn't 40k too? 40k was being kept in a deadlock for so long it became a plot point! (13th Black Crusade/Octarius War/Armageddon)
For me the issue is that old 40k was a setting big enough to contain stories, AOS and new 40k seems to be going for a grand narrative with an accompanying setting. The difference is that stories or grand narratives cant be static like a setting can, in fact, a setting should be static to some degree to allow the smaller stories to take place in it. A narrative on the other hand is meaningless if there is no change after it's conclusion. This creates issues for example AOS where the story is basically a cosmic tug-of-war between good and evil that can never actually affect any of the sides in a meaningful way, because the story is tied to wargaming-setting. And if it actually had some meaningful change it would hurt the settings function as a wargame backdrop.
Old 40k on the other hand was a setting, so the static nature of it was a feature, not a bug.
Arachnofiend wrote: I'm half-hoping he comes back completely twisted by the warp and barely clinging to his humanity but I know we can't expect anything cool out of the Space Wolves.
That would indeed a way to make it a least somewhat cool, but we been over this before, and most primarch fans don't like the idea. They want the primarchs to return pretty much as they were, and continue like the last ten thousand years really didn't happen.
HoundsofDemos wrote: One thing I would prefer is that Bobby G wasn't such a crutch to fix how kinda meh Space Marines, particularly non Primaris are if you want a chance against the more competitive lists other factions can take. I don't mind him being back, I do mind that he is treated as an assumed auto include.
Xenomancers wrote: Oh look people hating on Ultramarines. Never would have imagined. LOL.
When only one really and its only on RG
When Russ or the Lion comes out. I doubt anyone will say something like..."that is the worst thing that ever happend in 40k".
True - Russ will be a Giant super wolfen riding a two headed super wolf pulling a wolf chariots full of wolves but apparenrtly thats all in keeping with the older fluff and themes.....
The Lion will just be a giant dick to everyone because thats his only thing that he does.
and somehow RG will still be the one everyone hates..
If anyone will be a shinning light of super awesomeness it will be a Space Wolf. I miss the old Wolves.
Your take is invalid since Daemon Primarchs were involved in the post-Scouring lore and most of the living loyalists have some kind of foretelling that they'll return. And these aren't legends like King Arthur, but rather something based in a setting where you have people who can actually see the future.
As much as you hate the Primarchs (and can't provide any actual proof from the lore that Guilliman as actually accomplished anything tangible to make the Imperium better instead of memes, hyperbole and feelings) the fact remains that 40k has always been about it's big damn heroes having big damn hero moments and acting as beacons of hope for others. Hell, the Lord Solar himself reclaimed one of the largest swaths of the galaxy since the Great Crusade itself but no one is going on about how that breaks the setting. Guilliman restocked some beaten down chapters, established some new ones and claimed a victory that didn't exist for the sake of good publicity and yet he's somehow more impactful than the Lord Solar was (despite reclaiming no territory, and even losing some since he came back).
Maybe you liked the way it was in 3rd when characters needed your opponent's permission or something, but a lot of us like having a center peice to build our armies around, and to spend hours carefully painting. Primarchs are just the newest center pieces, and if you don't like them then ignore them and move on. Being so hung up on something that has had no real impact other than putting bigger pants on the Marines since his return is just silly.
Jesus Christ, the margin of missing the point here is utterly colossal. The daemon Primarchs are not the same, they've always been there, they don't violate the theme of chaos. And comparing Lord Solar Macharius to a primarch. Wow! Macharius was a notmal man, not a demigod annointed by gods, who rise to the occassion, did a bunch of important stuff, and died. He is exactly the sort of person this Primarch business overshadows. And this was never about the tabletop, people can use the special characters for all I care.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote: I honestly like the primaris and primarch stuff from a fluff viewpoint.
Yes, i understand that the theme of the big old degraded imperium slowly falling without a chance is what 40K has been about for years, but you know what? It's boring.
As a Tyranid player i love these new developments, because until now the fluff for me has been "Do what you want, lose or win doesn't matter, you are guaranteed to eat the galaxy in any case, they have as much chances of stopping you as a puppy has of stopping earth rotation."
If the Imperium acutally gets some new toys and in the face of extinction finally manages to cure some of his bad habits, this makes the story more interesting. There is a big difference between "Losing fight with no hope at all" and "Losing fight with the chance of a miracle". The second is
Whilst I utterly disagree, at least I can understand this viewpoint. You're not trying to pretend it was not a significant change, so we only disagree on whether it was a good change.
Your take is invalid since Daemon Primarchs were involved in the post-Scouring lore and most of the living loyalists have some kind of foretelling that they'll return. And these aren't legends like King Arthur, but rather something based in a setting where you have people who can actually see the future.
As much as you hate the Primarchs (and can't provide any actual proof from the lore that Guilliman as actually accomplished anything tangible to make the Imperium better instead of memes, hyperbole and feelings) the fact remains that 40k has always been about it's big damn heroes having big damn hero moments and acting as beacons of hope for others. Hell, the Lord Solar himself reclaimed one of the largest swaths of the galaxy since the Great Crusade itself but no one is going on about how that breaks the setting. Guilliman restocked some beaten down chapters, established some new ones and claimed a victory that didn't exist for the sake of good publicity and yet he's somehow more impactful than the Lord Solar was (despite reclaiming no territory, and even losing some since he came back).
Maybe you liked the way it was in 3rd when characters needed your opponent's permission or something, but a lot of us like having a center peice to build our armies around, and to spend hours carefully painting. Primarchs are just the newest center pieces, and if you don't like them then ignore them and move on. Being so hung up on something that has had no real impact other than putting bigger pants on the Marines since his return is just silly.
Jesus Christ, the margin of missing the point here is utterly colossal. The daemon Primarchs are not the same, they've always been there, they don't violate the theme of chaos. And comparing Lord Solar Macharius to a primarch. Wow! Macharius was a notmal man, not a demigod annointed by gods, who rise to the occassion, did a bunch of important stuff, and died. He is exactly the sort of person this Primarch business overshadows. And this was never about the tabletop, people can use the special characters for all I care.
No I think you are missing his point - you claim the story has changed but w are saying it has Not - its just a different character trying to do stuff.
Did 40k "Break" for you the last time one man, Vandire took control over the whole Imperium?
Or Living Saints walked amngst the Mortals or the Necron fluff completely changed their entire bak story and that of the galaxy?
In fact when you read anything written by Matt Ward? Especially see Grey Knights.
We will see what GeeDubs can make of the current changes, it maybe for the better or for the worse, execution is what matters.
Narratively to me 40k has never been about "good guys" and "bad guys". Not about good and evil fighting for the fate of the universe. It's just a setting that takes place in last days of an old crumbling empire, slowly torn apart by it's own unsustainability and the new powers coming to fill the power vacuum. At best various people and cultures wish to spin a narrative of some grand struggle, maybe even try to create one for their own perceived benefit, people like the Tau or Emperor who see the world as one of binary choices.
If anything 40k is a satirical cautionary tale about empires and dictators. There is hope in this universe, but it's just not for the trouble making factions we see and play, but for the rest of the galaxy, for those countless civilizations, human or otherwise, who mostly just mind their own business, and so never get models or attention.
I do fear that 40k, while superficially looking the same, is loosing some of that deeper meaning for the sake of shallow fanficcy-ness that GS and much of the 8ed fluff have been.
Xenomancers wrote: Oh look people hating on Ultramarines. Never would have imagined. LOL.
When only one really and its only on RG
When Russ or the Lion comes out. I doubt anyone will say something like..."that is the worst thing that ever happend in 40k".
True - Russ will be a Giant super wolfen riding a two headed super wolf pulling a wolf chariots full of wolves but apparenrtly thats all in keeping with the older fluff and themes.....
The Lion will just be a giant dick to everyone because thats his only thing that he does.
and somehow RG will still be the one everyone hates..
If anyone will be a shinning light of super awesomeness it will be a Space Wolf. I miss the old Wolves.
You practically read my mind! Except I don't miss old wolves. I never liked the fact most their dudes don't wear helmets.
Mr Morden wrote: No I think you are missing his point - you claim the story has changed but w are saying it has Not - its just a different character trying to do stuff.
Considering that the nature of the character and what he represents is the crux of the issue, it is not that simple.
Did 40k "Break" for you the last time one man, Vandire took control over the whole Imperium?
No. That was a cool story, and exactly the sort of story they could do if they wanted things to happen. And it was done without any Primarchs or other demigods. Vandire and Macharius are examples of the sort of heroes and villains they should use more; ultimately completely normal people who through their cunning and strength of will achieve great things; not because they were magically empowered 'chosen ones'.
Or Living Saints walked amngst the Mortals
I don't like that the living saints have become so explicitly 'magical.' So living saints are fine when they're left more vague. More Jead d'Arc, less Suprgirl.
or the Necron fluff completely changed their entire bak story and that of the galaxy?
I kinda hate Necrons, they were a bad addition to the setting and they completely changed the Eldar Background for them. End then the C'tans were inserted anywhere and were behind everything. So yeah, that was kinda terrible. Good thing about that was however that most of it concerns super ancient history, so thus really do not affect how the setting currently functions.
In fact when you read anything written by Matt Ward? Especially see Grey Knights.
There is indeed a lot of colossally stupid stuff there. But most of that is isolated incidents that do not really much affect the setting as a whole.
If not why not?
Whilst I said that Guillimans return was the 'worst thing to happen to 40K setting' I in no way imply that other stupid things would not have happened before. It is just that logically in a list of things there is something that must be place on the top, and for me it is that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Morgasm the Powerfull wrote: We will see what GeeDubs can make of the current changes, it maybe for the better or for the worse, execution is what matters.
Narratively to me 40k has never been about "good guys" and "bad guys". Not about good and evil fighting for the fate of the universe. It's just a setting that takes place in last days of an old crumbling empire, slowly torn apart by it's own unsustainability and the new powers coming to fill the power vacuum. At best various people and cultures wish to spin a narrative of some grand struggle, maybe even try to create one for their own perceived benefit, people like the Tau or Emperor who see the world as one of binary choices.
If anything 40k is a satirical cautionary tale about empires and dictators. There is hope in this universe, but it's just not for the trouble making factions we see and play, but for the rest of the galaxy, for those countless civilizations, human or otherwise, who mostly just mind their own business, and so never get models or attention.
I do fear that 40k, while superficially looking the same, is loosing some of that deeper meaning for the sake of shallow fanficcy-ness that GS and much of the 8ed fluff have been.
they made primaris marines larger than old models? thats going to annoy the hell out of me. I can't play with my old models and primaris marines at the same time then. I'd OCD the hell out.
LumenPraebeo wrote: they made primaris marines larger than old models? thats going to annoy the hell out of me. I can't play with my old models and primaris marines at the same time then. I'd OCD the hell out.
Yeah, they look weird together. Thus it is only Primaris for from now on; the old marines are shelved. And as much I dislike the fluff, the models are gorgeous, and ultimately that's the most important thing in this hobby.
Daemonkin armies are fluffy and they can do well on the table.
Also, I disagree that Rowboat joining the setting is as big a change as you're making it out to be Crimson. The Imperium is still barely holding on, in fact it's under more pressure than ever. That's why GW needed to add girlyman, because if they hit the Imperium with all these disasters without any added suppourt then that would have been the end.
I mean, I would agree with you if RG and company had come back a bit earlier, showed up at the battle of cadia, beat abaddon's ass and crushed the traitor legions back into the Eye, but that's not what happened. What happened is the Imperium got fething blown up, right down the middle, and now everything is falling apart, and RG is the only thing holding it together. Just like the previous iteration of legendary heroes like Dante, Calgar, and Azrael were just barely holding things together before the 13th Black Crusade and the Rift.
Mordian2016 wrote: Seeing Guilliman running around every SM table diminishes the fluff about him
Eh, I don't think any action taken in a game like this can be said to 'diminish the fluff'. I mean, I killed both Morty and Magnus last week. Should I be upset that their role in the fluff is diminished because a scout sniped one and the other took a thunder hammer to the toe from a nobody? I hardly think that's fair.
That's not to say the prevalence of Guilliman in marine lists today isn't annoying - it's just annoying for reasons other than him being really good, a cool model, and a neat dude.
Mordian2016 wrote: Seeing Guilliman running around every SM table diminishes the fluff about him
Eh, I don't think any action taken in a game like this can be said to 'diminish the fluff'. I mean, I killed both Morty and Magnus last week. Should I be upset that their role in the fluff is diminished because a scout sniped one and the other took a thunder hammer to the toe from a nobody? I hardly think that's fair.
That's not to say the prevalence of Guilliman in marine lists today isn't annoying - it's just annoying for reasons other than him being really good, a cool model, and a neat dude.
There is a slight tonal difference between a game where people bring special characters all the time - and games where you don't get them at all, its all "your dudes".
But really that has varied by edition - and by faction. Most characters have been bad for their points (and I suspect if you compiled a list this would hold up in 8th). The ones that are not however have always been spammed. I mean there have been whole editions where you didn't encounter a Farseer who wasn't Eldrad.
It's just a natural outcome of playing competitively. People are always going to bring the best stuff. If that is named characters, then you're going to see a lot of them.
Spoletta wrote: I prefer a dime in a dozen which is interesting to a special snowflake which is boring.
As long as you keep this setup where humanity must lose at all costs, all your narrative will always be "Here look, the heroes won the day in this battle. Oh by the way while this was happening they lost the bigger battle off screen". 100% of the times. You are always shown the little event where they win and are always told that the bad guys have won in the larger scale. So if you happen to play the bad guys, you always get said that you are winning and yet you lose in all narrations. This.Gets.Boring.
Also, as a bad guy, you will never get handed significant wins, since the imperium could not take a blow like that and the setting would be done for.
I'm afraid that most people do not get, and never did, the idea behind 40k 'static' setting (which it used to be in WHF too). The idea was that people could make their own stories about what was going to be the "next step". This is why the lore contained hints about terrible future invasions, Primarchs or Saints possibly coming back, etc. This is original reason why there were two missing legions.
Progressing lore has been tried in number of gaming settings: WM/H, L5R, Battletech and so on. It doesn't work, and why? This is because the lore must be written within the strict contraints of the product catalogue. Lore writers can never write anything really decisive because that might remove raison d'être behind an unit or faction. Imagine if Lord of the Rings was written that way. Could there ever a be scene where Ring is destroyed, Orcs wiped out and most of the Elves sail to Valinor? Of course not. All the victories and defeats would be incomplete, sometimes Sauron might capture Osgiliath with help of Mithril Claw of Doom, until some brave Dwarf threw it in a volcano, resulting to his armies retreating to where they were and so on. Endless variations of the same theme over and over again. One might maintain it for a short while, but sooner or later it is going to look ludicrous and destroy the appeal of the lore.
Mordian2016 wrote: Seeing Guilliman running around every SM table diminishes the fluff about him
Eh, I don't think any action taken in a game like this can be said to 'diminish the fluff'. I mean, I killed both Morty and Magnus last week. Should I be upset that their role in the fluff is diminished because a scout sniped one and the other took a thunder hammer to the toe from a nobody? I hardly think that's fair.
That's not to say the prevalence of Guilliman in marine lists today isn't annoying - it's just annoying for reasons other than him being really good, a cool model, and a neat dude.
There is a slight tonal difference between a game where people bring special characters all the time - and games where you don't get them at all, its all "your dudes".
But really that has varied by edition - and by faction. Most characters have been bad for their points (and I suspect if you compiled a list this would hold up in 8th). The ones that are not however have always been spammed. I mean there have been whole editions where you didn't encounter a Farseer who wasn't Eldrad.
I remember when no one played named characters at all because they were banned in tournaments, mostly because a lot of them were completely broken.
LumenPraebeo wrote: they made primaris marines larger than old models? thats going to annoy the hell out of me. I can't play with my old models and primaris marines at the same time then. I'd OCD the hell out.
Primaris are meant to be bigger. It is stated in the fluff that they are physically larger than regular space marines.
Crimson Devil wrote: It's just a natural outcome of playing competitively. People are always going to bring the best stuff. If that is named characters, then you're going to see a lot of them.
Indeed. That's why the vast vast VAST majority of people who play GW games don't play competitively. It's not a game that is meant to be played super competitively, never was, never will.
Spoletta wrote: I prefer a dime in a dozen which is interesting to a special snowflake which is boring.
As long as you keep this setup where humanity must lose at all costs, all your narrative will always be "Here look, the heroes won the day in this battle. Oh by the way while this was happening they lost the bigger battle off screen". 100% of the times. You are always shown the little event where they win and are always told that the bad guys have won in the larger scale. So if you happen to play the bad guys, you always get said that you are winning and yet you lose in all narrations. This.Gets.Boring.
Also, as a bad guy, you will never get handed significant wins, since the imperium could not take a blow like that and the setting would be done for.
I'm afraid that most people do not get, and never did, the idea behind 40k 'static' setting (which it used to be in WHF too). The idea was that people could make their own stories about what was going to be the "next step". This is why the lore contained hints about terrible future invasions, Primarchs or Saints possibly coming back, etc. This is original reason why there were two missing legions.
Progressing lore has been tried in number of gaming settings: WM/H, L5R, Battletech and so on. It doesn't work, and why? This is because the lore must be written within the strict contraints of the product catalogue. Lore writers can never write anything really decisive because that might remove raison d'être behind an unit or faction. Imagine if Lord of the Rings was written that way. Could there ever a be scene where Ring is destroyed, Orcs wiped out and most of the Elves sail to Valinor? Of course not. All the victories and defeats would be incomplete, sometimes Sauron might capture Osgiliath with help of Mithril Claw of Doom, until some brave Dwarf threw it in a volcano, resulting to his armies retreating to where they were and so on. Endless variations of the same theme over and over again. One might maintain it for a short while, but sooner or later it is going to look ludicrous and destroy the appeal of the lore.
This so much and why it feels like the idea that things are worse than ever feels hollow and poorly shown. GW can't due to the need to continue to sell the same models from the same faction do anything to radical but continues to add more and more new and shiny things. The IOM is worse than ever, but some how now has the resources to make even better marines with even better weapons, including lost tech. We now how even better knights, and I'm sure that's just the start. So any fluff of o no half the IOM is in trouble feels meaningless.
Spoletta wrote: I prefer a dime in a dozen which is interesting to a special snowflake which is boring.
As long as you keep this setup where humanity must lose at all costs, all your narrative will always be "Here look, the heroes won the day in this battle. Oh by the way while this was happening they lost the bigger battle off screen". 100% of the times. You are always shown the little event where they win and are always told that the bad guys have won in the larger scale. So if you happen to play the bad guys, you always get said that you are winning and yet you lose in all narrations. This.Gets.Boring.
Also, as a bad guy, you will never get handed significant wins, since the imperium could not take a blow like that and the setting would be done for.
I'm afraid that most people do not get, and never did, the idea behind 40k 'static' setting (which it used to be in WHF too). The idea was that people could make their own stories about what was going to be the "next step". This is why the lore contained hints about terrible future invasions, Primarchs or Saints possibly coming back, etc. This is original reason why there were two missing legions.
Progressing lore has been tried in number of gaming settings: WM/H, L5R, Battletech and so on. It doesn't work, and why? This is because the lore must be written within the strict contraints of the product catalogue. Lore writers can never write anything really decisive because that might remove raison d'être behind an unit or faction. Imagine if Lord of the Rings was written that way. Could there ever a be scene where Ring is destroyed, Orcs wiped out and most of the Elves sail to Valinor? Of course not. All the victories and defeats would be incomplete, sometimes Sauron might capture Osgiliath with help of Mithril Claw of Doom, until some brave Dwarf threw it in a volcano, resulting to his armies retreating to where they were and so on. Endless variations of the same theme over and over again. One might maintain it for a short while, but sooner or later it is going to look ludicrous and destroy the appeal of the lore.
sure except 40k didn;'t progress the lore at all and had the exact same thing happen. There is a balance in moving the lore, what was happening is that 40k was getting stale, GW needed to shake things up a bit. now that they have I expect we'll return to the days of "event conflicts" ala 3rd editions armageddon, black crusade etc days
LumenPraebeo wrote: they made primaris marines larger than old models? thats going to annoy the hell out of me. I can't play with my old models and primaris marines at the same time then. I'd OCD the hell out.
Yeah, they look weird together. Thus it is only Primaris for from now on; the old marines are shelved. And as much I dislike the fluff, the models are gorgeous, and ultimately that's the most important thing in this hobby.
Same reason I shelved my old Death Guard army. Every unit was the Forge World DG conversion kits and I had spent a lot of time on them over the years. With the release of the new DG range all the models were a much shorter and the scale was just off, plus the new models were amazing so naturally a reboot was in order.
Spoletta wrote: I prefer a dime in a dozen which is interesting to a special snowflake which is boring.
As long as you keep this setup where humanity must lose at all costs, all your narrative will always be "Here look, the heroes won the day in this battle. Oh by the way while this was happening they lost the bigger battle off screen". 100% of the times. You are always shown the little event where they win and are always told that the bad guys have won in the larger scale. So if you happen to play the bad guys, you always get said that you are winning and yet you lose in all narrations. This.Gets.Boring.
Also, as a bad guy, you will never get handed significant wins, since the imperium could not take a blow like that and the setting would be done for.
I'm afraid that most people do not get, and never did, the idea behind 40k 'static' setting (which it used to be in WHF too). The idea was that people could make their own stories about what was going to be the "next step". This is why the lore contained hints about terrible future invasions, Primarchs or Saints possibly coming back, etc. This is original reason why there were two missing legions.
Progressing lore has been tried in number of gaming settings: WM/H, L5R, Battletech and so on. It doesn't work, and why? This is because the lore must be written within the strict contraints of the product catalogue. Lore writers can never write anything really decisive because that might remove raison d'être behind an unit or faction. Imagine if Lord of the Rings was written that way. Could there ever a be scene where Ring is destroyed, Orcs wiped out and most of the Elves sail to Valinor? Of course not. All the victories and defeats would be incomplete, sometimes Sauron might capture Osgiliath with help of Mithril Claw of Doom, until some brave Dwarf threw it in a volcano, resulting to his armies retreating to where they were and so on. Endless variations of the same theme over and over again. One might maintain it for a short while, but sooner or later it is going to look ludicrous and destroy the appeal of the lore.
Someone who gets it. People were clamouring for years for GW to "advance" the story in WFB and look what happened there - the old world went kaboom and half of the players armies were invalidated overnight. (AOS is improving but has taken them 3 years to get to this point)
Mordian2016 wrote: Seeing Guilliman running around every SM table diminishes the fluff about him
Eh, I don't think any action taken in a game like this can be said to 'diminish the fluff'. I mean, I killed both Morty and Magnus last week. Should I be upset that their role in the fluff is diminished because a scout sniped one and the other took a thunder hammer to the toe from a nobody? I hardly think that's fair.
That's not to say the prevalence of Guilliman in marine lists today isn't annoying - it's just annoying for reasons other than him being really good, a cool model, and a neat dude.
There is a slight tonal difference between a game where people bring special characters all the time - and games where you don't get them at all, its all "your dudes".
But really that has varied by edition - and by faction. Most characters have been bad for their points (and I suspect if you compiled a list this would hold up in 8th). The ones that are not however have always been spammed. I mean there have been whole editions where you didn't encounter a Farseer who wasn't Eldrad.
I remember when no one played named characters at all because they were banned in tournaments, mostly because a lot of them were completely broken.
Yeah, remember how broken Coteaz was at 185 points?
Nope. Me neither.
Please tell us how many of the special characters were broken.
So this was a pretty recent kit, more or less. (I actually like them, the Devs at least) As we know these units got ret conned into the lore. Which people tend to not like.
So how do you add new models/units without moving forward?
Most special characters were generally worse than the generic ones. I play mostly space marines and at least in 7th at least, you saw the Khan and that's about it. Smash F----er wasn't a special character and he was far more problematic.
So this was a pretty recent kit, more or less. (I actually like them, the Devs at least) As we know these units got ret conned into the lore. Which people tend to not like.
So how do you add new models/units without moving forward?
Generally, by looking backward. The Trygon, Haruspex, Hunter, Vindicator, Wave Serpent etc. were all new kits to 40K at some point. But they weren't new units in the lore, they already existed in Epic versions of 40K.
Or specifically in the Centurions case, I think it would have gone better without saying "Yep, they've always been here!". Rather better was the introduction of the Land Raider Crusader, which was that it existed specifically for a chapter that you're just hearing about in detail (the Black Templars during 3rd Ed.) and then allowing the other chapters to use it more over the next few years. Not to mention the Land Raider was already a familiar concept/kit.
But half the problem with the Centurions is their aesthetic and their goofy man-in-armor-in-armor concept. I know 40K has some goofy things about it but the Centurions were pretty jarring.
Mordian2016 wrote: Seeing Guilliman running around every SM table diminishes the fluff about him
Eh, I don't think any action taken in a game like this can be said to 'diminish the fluff'. I mean, I killed both Morty and Magnus last week. Should I be upset that their role in the fluff is diminished because a scout sniped one and the other took a thunder hammer to the toe from a nobody? I hardly think that's fair.
That's not to say the prevalence of Guilliman in marine lists today isn't annoying - it's just annoying for reasons other than him being really good, a cool model, and a neat dude.
There is a slight tonal difference between a game where people bring special characters all the time - and games where you don't get them at all, its all "your dudes".
But really that has varied by edition - and by faction. Most characters have been bad for their points (and I suspect if you compiled a list this would hold up in 8th). The ones that are not however have always been spammed. I mean there have been whole editions where you didn't encounter a Farseer who wasn't Eldrad.
I remember when no one played named characters at all because they were banned in tournaments, mostly because a lot of them were completely broken.
Yeah, remember how broken Coteaz was at 185 points?
Nope. Me neither.
Please tell us how many of the special characters were broken.
3rd edition. A lot of the Chaos characters would destroy an opposing army all by themselves if you got good over-run rolls, Abaddon in particular. The Nightbringer and the Deciever were also in the 300-400 point range and perfectly capable of tanking and then destroying everything you could hope to throw at them. The big ork dude was up there too.
So this was a pretty recent kit, more or less. (I actually like them, the Devs at least) As we know these units got ret conned into the lore. Which people tend to not like.
So how do you add new models/units without moving forward?
I think the backlash with Centurions wasn't so much to do with a new unit being hand waved into existence as always being there, it was more to do with the 10 year old fanboy design of "let's have power armoured dudes wear more power armour!"
Aggressors fixed what Centurions should have been from the start
Mordian2016 wrote: Seeing Guilliman running around every SM table diminishes the fluff about him
Eh, I don't think any action taken in a game like this can be said to 'diminish the fluff'. I mean, I killed both Morty and Magnus last week. Should I be upset that their role in the fluff is diminished because a scout sniped one and the other took a thunder hammer to the toe from a nobody? I hardly think that's fair.
That's not to say the prevalence of Guilliman in marine lists today isn't annoying - it's just annoying for reasons other than him being really good, a cool model, and a neat dude.
There is a slight tonal difference between a game where people bring special characters all the time - and games where you don't get them at all, its all "your dudes".
But really that has varied by edition - and by faction. Most characters have been bad for their points (and I suspect if you compiled a list this would hold up in 8th). The ones that are not however have always been spammed. I mean there have been whole editions where you didn't encounter a Farseer who wasn't Eldrad.
I remember when no one played named characters at all because they were banned in tournaments, mostly because a lot of them were completely broken.
Yeah, remember how broken Coteaz was at 185 points?
Nope. Me neither.
Please tell us how many of the special characters were broken.
3rd edition. A lot of the Chaos characters would destroy an opposing army all by themselves if you got good over-run rolls, Abaddon in particular. The Nightbringer and the Deciever were also in the 300-400 point range and perfectly capable of tanking and then destroying everything you could hope to throw at them. The big ork dude was up there too.
Which proves you remember incorrectly. So thanks for proving me right. Nightbringer and Deceiver being broken? Please.
So this was a pretty recent kit, more or less. (I actually like them, the Devs at least) As we know these units got ret conned into the lore. Which people tend to not like.
So how do you add new models/units without moving forward?
Generally, by looking backward. The Trygon, Haruspex, Hunter, Vindicator, Wave Serpent etc. were all new kits to 40K at some point. But they weren't new units in the lore, they already existed in Epic versions of 40K.
Or specifically in the Centurions case, I think it would have gone better without saying "Yep, they've always been here!". Rather better was the introduction of the Land Raider Crusader, which was that it existed specifically for a chapter that you're just hearing about in detail (the Black Templars during 3rd Ed.) and then allowing the other chapters to use it more over the next few years. Not to mention the Land Raider was already a familiar concept/kit.
But half the problem with the Centurions is their aesthetic and their goofy man-in-armor-in-armor concept. I know 40K has some goofy things about it but the Centurions were pretty jarring.
I think centurians would have been gone better if they made it more obvious it was a normal marine with a exoskeleton for heavy weapons. I understand the concept of them but yeah the design could have been better.
Anyway yeah, previous units that are established in the fluff, there's oodles of work there that's for sure. But that number is finite none the less. By moving forward even just a little it opens the flood gates for new concepts for things that never appeared in the fluff before. I assume Tau have units in the fluff that aren't modeled yet but compared to other races you can't slot new stuff in, their worlds haven't been decimated like the Imperium
But with the crusader that's a little different that was a tank that's been around for quite a while with the Black Templars eventually doing a conversion. Centurian suits are like nothing else in the Imperium, even the redemptor Dreadnought has similarities to Kastellan robots.
So this was a pretty recent kit, more or less. (I actually like them, the Devs at least) As we know these units got ret conned into the lore. Which people tend to not like.
So how do you add new models/units without moving forward?
I think the backlash with Centurions wasn't so much to do with a new unit being hand waved into existence as always being there, it was more to do with the 10 year old fanboy design of "let's have power armoured dudes wear more power armour!"
Aggressors fixed what Centurions should have been from the start
Yeah I want a nemesis dreadknight but not that model. That's where I draw the line
Crimson wrote: Yeah, the problem with the Centurions was that they looked completely silly.
Those are definitely a model without a lot of middle ground. Either you think they're silly or you think they're one of the best looking models in the range.
Mordian2016 wrote: Seeing Guilliman running around every SM table diminishes the fluff about him
Eh, I don't think any action taken in a game like this can be said to 'diminish the fluff'. I mean, I killed both Morty and Magnus last week. Should I be upset that their role in the fluff is diminished because a scout sniped one and the other took a thunder hammer to the toe from a nobody? I hardly think that's fair.
That's not to say the prevalence of Guilliman in marine lists today isn't annoying - it's just annoying for reasons other than him being really good, a cool model, and a neat dude.
There is a slight tonal difference between a game where people bring special characters all the time - and games where you don't get them at all, its all "your dudes".
But really that has varied by edition - and by faction. Most characters have been bad for their points (and I suspect if you compiled a list this would hold up in 8th). The ones that are not however have always been spammed. I mean there have been whole editions where you didn't encounter a Farseer who wasn't Eldrad.
I remember when no one played named characters at all because they were banned in tournaments, mostly because a lot of them were completely broken.
Yeah, remember how broken Coteaz was at 185 points?
Nope. Me neither.
Please tell us how many of the special characters were broken.
3rd edition. A lot of the Chaos characters would destroy an opposing army all by themselves if you got good over-run rolls, Abaddon in particular. The Nightbringer and the Deciever were also in the 300-400 point range and perfectly capable of tanking and then destroying everything you could hope to throw at them. The big ork dude was up there too.
Which proves you remember incorrectly. So thanks for proving me right. Nightbringer and Deceiver being broken? Please.
I'll cop to remembering the Star Gods out of the wrong edition, they weren't even introduced until 4th. The Nightbringer could still tank every heavy weapon you could fit into a 2000 point list for 3-4 turns in a row without dying and he'd slaughter anything he could reach. Although it could take him a few rounds to demolish a big unit, he didn't have that many attacks.
My dislike for the Centurion models were one they looked kind silly, like can that thing even walk? The other were they weren't needed. The marine line didn't need much other than scouts getting a refreshed kit IMO. The range is more or less complete and GW should have focused it's energies one getting the other factions into plastic or digging into the fluff and bringing in new factions.
HoundsofDemos wrote: My dislike for the Centurion models were one they looked kind silly, like can that thing even walk? The other were they weren't needed. The marine line didn't need much other than scouts getting a refreshed kit IMO. The range is more or less complete and GW should have focused it's energies one getting the other factions into plastic or digging into the fluff and bringing in new factions.
Totally agree on the scouts, those are kind of awful. I'll also agree that other ranges need an upgrade more than Marines needed new stuff. I do love my Centurion Devastators though, I wish the Primaris line had anything even approaching that much firepower. I'm seriously tempted to trim some of the iconography off mine before I paint them so they'll blend in better with the Primaris.
Personally, I like both Dreadknights and Centurions and actually wish we had Imperial Guardsmen with exoskeleton suits to boot.
The one quote that has always stuck in my mind for the "feel" of 40K has been:
Rogue Trader BRB wrote:
..To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions....Forget the power of technology, science and common humanity. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for there is no peace among the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter and the laughter of thirsting gods.
But the universe is a big place and, whatever happens, you will not be missed. . . .
This is my beef with the likes of Gulliman and the current crusade. It just feels so much like a tonal shift away from what I liked about 40K. The game is still about the same thing - endless battles on the tabletop, but the slowly crumbling world, Pyrrhic-battle-laden background *feels* like it's been replaced with a sort of WW2 America "Here comes Bobby GeeWiz. and his numarines to save all you poor saps suffering under this oppressive 'warp storm' thingee" instead of the bitter last gasp of a dying empire throwing the last of its most precious warriors into a meat grinder they know they can't win.
I'll buy primaris any day of the week (if I didn't have a ton of models already), but I just don't like the tone GW seems to push for the universe of late.
People who feel like Guilliman has managed to save the Imperium REALLY need to read Dark Imperium.
Guilliman, even after more than a hundred years, doesn't even know enough about what happened in the Imperium to make decisions on how to tackle some of it's problems, he calls a crusade a "victory" just to give the Imperium something to hold onto and is relying heavily on propaganda to even make it look like things MIGHT not end badly.
And let's not even get into the fact that it's apparently illegal to record when the Custodes lose a conflict meaning the Golden Boys might not be actually helping that much in the Imperium since we only get to know about their victories. Thanks Administratum for that one.
Also over the years the tone has got darker and darker. IMHO it got to Grim Derp. And when they changed it back to Grim Dark people overreacted like they changed it to Noble Bright.
Personally I don't like it when there is no hope. A little hope is good, but no hope is pointless.
ClockworkZion wrote: People who feel like Guilliman has managed to save the Imperium REALLY need to read Dark Imperium.
Guilliman, even after more than a hundred years, doesn't even know enough about what happened in the Imperium to make decisions on how to tackle some of it's problems, he calls a crusade a "victory" just to give the Imperium something to hold onto and is relying heavily on propaganda to even make it look like things MIGHT not end badly.
And let's not even get into the fact that it's apparently illegal to record when the Custodes lose a conflict meaning the Golden Boys might not be actually helping that much in the Imperium since we only get to know about their victories. Thanks Administratum for that one.
Is Dark Imperium a novel? So far I've only been reading the BRB, codex and Gathering Storm and had *not* got that impression at all.
And the Custodes codex about made me puke, I got so sick of hearing how they never lost a battle. What proof is there that their deeds have been whitewashed? Is it explicitly noted somewhere?
Is Dark Imperium a novel? So far I've only been reading the BRB, codex and Gathering Storm and had *not* got that impression at all.
And the Custodes codex about made me puke, I got so sick of hearing how they never lost a battle. What proof is there that their deeds have been whitewashed? Is it explicitly noted somewhere?
And the Custodes codex about made me puke, I got so sick of hearing how they never lost a battle. What proof is there that their deeds have been whitewashed? Is it explicitly noted somewhere?
Maybe you should puke less and read more.
Page 32 Codex: Adeptus Custodes
The Dangers of Excellence Amid the horrors of the ongoing war against Chaos is it deemed heresy for the Administratium clerks to suggest that the Adeptus Custodes could ever lose a battle, regardless of the odds. Fearing for their safety many adepts record campaigns as Imperial victories before the first shots are even fired, should so much as a single Custodien be reported in the war zone. Needless to say more then 1 system is lost to subsequent disaster despite the Custodians endeavors
Seriously, this it OUT RIGHT STATED in the god damned codex you claimed "makes you want to puke" it outright says "the Imperium belives the Custodes are so awesome, they automaticly assume any campaign they fight in will be a success.. and as such battles have been lost because they've been too god damned hidebound to consider that the Custdoes might need reinforcements.
So clearly you've not been reading even the limited stuff you claim you have been reading.
And the Custodes codex about made me puke, I got so sick of hearing how they never lost a battle. What proof is there that their deeds have been whitewashed? Is it explicitly noted somewhere?
Maybe you should puke less and read more.
Page 32 Codex: Adeptus Custodes
The Dangers of Excellence Amid the horrors of the ongoing war against Chaos is it deemed heresy for the Administratium clerks to suggest that the Adeptus Custodes could ever lose a battle, regardless of the odds. Fearing for their safety many adepts record campaigns as Imperial victories before the first shots are even fired, should so much as a single Custodien be reported in the war zone. Needless to say more then 1 system is lost to subsequent disaster despite the Custodians endeavors
Seriously, this it OUT RIGHT STATED in the god damned codex you claimed "makes you want to puke" it outright says "the Imperium belives the Custodes are so awesome, they automaticly assume any campaign they fight in will be a success.. and as such battles have been lost because they've been too god damned hidebound to consider that the Custdoes might need reinforcements.
So clearly you've not been reading even the limited stuff you claim you have been reading.
Calm the feth down. I don't memorize 40K, I just asked a question.
I'm afraid that most people do not get, and never did, the idea behind 40k 'static' setting (which it used to be in WHF too). The idea was that people could make their own stories about what was going to be the "next step". This is why the lore contained hints about terrible future invasions, Primarchs or Saints possibly coming back, etc. This is original reason why there were two missing legions.
Progressing lore has been tried in number of gaming settings: WM/H, L5R, Battletech and so on. It doesn't work, and why? This is because the lore must be written within the strict contraints of the product catalogue. Lore writers can never write anything really decisive because that might remove raison d'être behind an unit or faction. Imagine if Lord of the Rings was written that way. Could there ever a be scene where Ring is destroyed, Orcs wiped out and most of the Elves sail to Valinor? Of course not. All the victories and defeats would be incomplete, sometimes Sauron might capture Osgiliath with help of Mithril Claw of Doom, until some brave Dwarf threw it in a volcano, resulting to his armies retreating to where they were and so on. Endless variations of the same theme over and over again. One might maintain it for a short while, but sooner or later it is going to look ludicrous and destroy the appeal of the lore.
sure except 40k didn;'t progress the lore at all and had the exact same thing happen. There is a balance in moving the lore, what was happening is that 40k was getting stale, GW needed to shake things up a bit. now that they have I expect we'll return to the days of "event conflicts" ala 3rd editions armageddon, black crusade etc days
You are correct in the sense that if you are involved in the lore for many years/decades, both static and dynamic lore are going to feel stale (although not necessarily from the same reason). However, gaming systems survive by gaining new fans. No matter how good the rule and lore is, most players eventually leave the game anyway.
This is where the static system is, in the long run, superior because it is much easier for newcomer to swallow because while details are changed, added or retconned, basic premises stay the same. In progressing lore, every newcomer faces increasingly longer and more convoluted chronicle which he's supposed to familiarize with. Eventually, it's going to reach the point where it feels confusing and overwhelming.
WHF Old World faced, I think, a different dilemma from 40k setting in that the world was designed like a real world (because it was modelled after the Earth). Geography gave lots of trouble for writers because there were many regions which were important in the lore but not covered in tabletop at all, and it was difficult to come up with reasons for geographically very removed enemies to fight. 40k galaxy is much less restricted in this respect. Having said that, I don't much like AoS setting. It feels too fantastic, somewhat like MtG lore, and doesn't come across as real world with real people and places to fight over.
Is Dark Imperium a novel? So far I've only been reading the BRB, codex and Gathering Storm and had *not* got that impression at all.
And the Custodes codex about made me puke, I got so sick of hearing how they never lost a battle. What proof is there that their deeds have been whitewashed? Is it explicitly noted somewhere?
100% agree with you. The RT tone kind of sucked to be honest.
The Imperium is still screwed in the new fluff, but it's not all Grim all the time, and that's an improvement in my eyes. Make it too dark and it just comes across as stupid. Dark for dark's sake. Add in some points of light and the setting is way more interesting.
a game whose lore moves too much and too fast is problematic absolutely no argument from me there. I played Battletech belive me I know EXACTLY how that can be a problem but being TOO static can also be a problem, the IDEAL is to find something of a middle ground where changes to the setting are rare, and brought in only once things have been fleshed out and filled in to a degree that you're beginning to simply retread old ground. Well I'd not nesscarily object to the occasional change to MAAAAYBE bring in some more primarchs and "primarch equivilants" I would object if GW kept moving the storyline too fast, shaking the setting up overmuch. it's an easy trap to fall into for a world company though as well.. it sells. WOTC fell into this trap during third edition D&D in FR, the fanbase refered to them on a whole as "RSEs" (Realms shaking events) and it grew tiresome, until 4th edition and the resultant backlash just about killed the setting.
Crimson wrote: Yeah, the problem with the Centurions was that they looked completely silly.
In the old days studio sculpted the units based on what lore writers came up with. This changed about 10 years ago, nowadays scuptors draw a concept of a model, one of the higher-ups decided "this looks good" and direct writers to come up with lore and rules for it.
Obvious down side of this is that the design has veered towards generic scifi/fantasy style. Most of the artists are professionals not really connected or involved with Warhammer lore. I feel that somewhat same thing has happened with lore, too in recent years as the style has clearly gone towards generic fantasy/scifi.
From the 500 hundred facts for 500 stores on WH Community, Fact 86: "Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines."
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: From the 500 hundred facts for 500 stores on WH Community, Fact 86: "Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines."
AKA: build the army you want and stop asking us about it already.
Crimson wrote: Yeah, the problem with the Centurions was that they looked completely silly.
In the old days studio sculpted the units based on what lore writers came up with. This changed about 10 years ago, nowadays scuptors draw a concept of a model, one of the higher-ups decided "this looks good" and direct writers to come up with lore and rules for it.
Obvious down side of this is that the design has veered towards generic scifi/fantasy style. Most of the artists are professionals not really connected or involved with Warhammer lore. I feel that somewhat same thing has happened with lore, too in recent years as the style has clearly gone towards generic fantasy/scifi.[/quote
I disagree. Jes Goodwin is still one of the main conceptual designers (not a sculptor anymore) and the sculptors often work from his ideas. He’s been there for almost as long as we’ve had Warhammer 40,000, and could hardly ever be accused of generic SF work. With him and John Blanche still influencing the models produced we have had almost exactly the same design direction for about 25 years.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: From the 500 hundred facts for 500 stores on WH Community, Fact 86: "Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines."
AKA: build the army you want and stop asking us about it already.
The Blood Angels lost their ability to make classic marines. During the Desolation of Baal, the Tyranids destroyed the Sarcophagi. So only Primaris for us.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: From the 500 hundred facts for 500 stores on WH Community, Fact 86: "Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines."
AKA: build the army you want and stop asking us about it already.
The Blood Angels lost their ability to make classic marines. During the Desolation of Baal, the Tyranids destroyed the Sarcophagi. So only Primaris for us.
I suspect we'll find out they didn't destroy ALL of them. hopefully at least.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: From the 500 hundred facts for 500 stores on WH Community, Fact 86: "Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines."
AKA: build the army you want and stop asking us about it already.
The Blood Angels lost their ability to make classic marines. During the Desolation of Baal, the Tyranids destroyed the Sarcophagi. So only Primaris for us.
I'm sure some of their successor chapters would pitch in and help out their founders.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: From the 500 hundred facts for 500 stores on WH Community, Fact 86: "Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines."
AKA: build the army you want and stop asking us about it already.
The Blood Angels lost their ability to make classic marines. During the Desolation of Baal, the Tyranids destroyed the Sarcophagi. So only Primaris for us.
maeglin wrote: Theory: Games Workshop found out they couldn't copyright "Space Marine" so decided they needed to introduce a copyright-able Space Marine. To make a clear visual distinction they took the "true scale marines" idea and introduced some cosmetic differences. They named the new style "Primaris" to make you think "Primary" ie the first and most important marines you should buy. A full model range of copyright-able Primaris unit types will be released, then the regular marines will be killed in the fluff and the model range discontinued.
Do you think this is true? Is this the last opportunity for nostalgic 3rd edition players to buy real marines before they're nerfed ALA Warhammer? How will the regular marines be killed in the fluff: virus, civil war, old-age retirement village?
Angus
No, they have already copyrighted Astartes, they don't need to copyright Primaris (even though they are also copyrighted) but, the Primaris were made to update in models and scale, though GW had the stupid notion that they needed to do all this Primaris lore bs; rather than just update the models. Love the models but I loathe the lore, if they wanted to beef up SM's they could have done it so much subtler, they could have eased into Primaris, rather than just ex-machina them.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: From the 500 hundred facts for 500 stores on WH Community, Fact 86: "Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines."
AKA: build the army you want and stop asking us about it already.
The Blood Angels lost their ability to make classic marines. During the Desolation of Baal, the Tyranids destroyed the Sarcophagi. So only Primaris for us.
Did they make sure to check under the sofa cushions for a spare or two before declaring they were all out?
maeglin wrote: Theory: Games Workshop found out they couldn't copyright "Space Marine" so decided they needed to introduce a copyright-able Space Marine. To make a clear visual distinction they took the "true scale marines" idea and introduced some cosmetic differences. They named the new style "Primaris" to make you think "Primary" ie the first and most important marines you should buy. A full model range of copyright-able Primaris unit types will be released, then the regular marines will be killed in the fluff and the model range discontinued.
Do you think this is true? Is this the last opportunity for nostalgic 3rd edition players to buy real marines before they're nerfed ALA Warhammer? How will the regular marines be killed in the fluff: virus, civil war, old-age retirement village?
Angus
No, they have already copyrighted Astartes, they don't need to copyright Primaris (even though they are also copyrighted) but, the Primaris were made to update in models and scale, though GW had the stupid notion that they needed to do all this Primaris lore bs; rather than just update the models. Love the models but I loathe the lore, if they wanted to beef up SM's they could have done it so much subtler, they could have eased into Primaris, rather than just ex-machina them.
There isn't really a way to "ease into" making them bigger and sticking a Primarch implant into Marines.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: From the 500 hundred facts for 500 stores on WH Community, Fact 86: "Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines."
I find it amusing that Primaris having limited wargear options is apparently the actual lore. Is a lascannon too smal for a Primaris Marine's big meaty hands?
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: From the 500 hundred facts for 500 stores on WH Community, Fact 86: "Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines."
AKA: build the army you want and stop asking us about it already.
The Blood Angels lost their ability to make classic marines. During the Desolation of Baal, the Tyranids destroyed the Sarcophagi. So only Primaris for us.
Did they make sure to check under the sofa cushions for a spare or two before declaring they were all out?
maeglin wrote: Theory: Games Workshop found out they couldn't copyright "Space Marine" so decided they needed to introduce a copyright-able Space Marine. To make a clear visual distinction they took the "true scale marines" idea and introduced some cosmetic differences. They named the new style "Primaris" to make you think "Primary" ie the first and most important marines you should buy. A full model range of copyright-able Primaris unit types will be released, then the regular marines will be killed in the fluff and the model range discontinued.
Do you think this is true? Is this the last opportunity for nostalgic 3rd edition players to buy real marines before they're nerfed ALA Warhammer? How will the regular marines be killed in the fluff: virus, civil war, old-age retirement village?
Angus
No, they have already copyrighted Astartes, they don't need to copyright Primaris (even though they are also copyrighted) but, the Primaris were made to update in models and scale, though GW had the stupid notion that they needed to do all this Primaris lore bs; rather than just update the models. Love the models but I loathe the lore, if they wanted to beef up SM's they could have done it so much subtler, they could have eased into Primaris, rather than just ex-machina them.
There isn't really a way to "ease into" making them bigger and sticking a Primarch implant into Marines.
Yes there is, there could be a story that spanned a few years of Cawl toiling at making marines, creating and field testing marines etc. making great lore and novels on the matter, having lore liek the traitors trying to sabotage and steal the project etc. That would actually be cool, rather than just plopping down the models one day and saying 'yeah now these are called primaris, we've written some contrived ex-machina bs lore, because we don't know how to plan in advance, but we hope you buy our product with gak lore, because all we care about is that cheddar.'
Stux wrote: The Imperium is still screwed in the new fluff, but it's not all Grim all the time, and that's an improvement in my eyes. Make it too dark and it just comes across as stupid. Dark for dark's sake. Add in some points of light and the setting is way more interesting.
I agree, but to each their own. Some people prefer super dark, some people prefer a brighter outlook. Some people truly believe Imperial society can survive 10,000 years while receding at a steady rate. In a fictional setting, why not? you do you. If you like a more realistic outlook like me, you'd quickly realize that recession becomes a snowballing effect. Loss of knowledge/breakdown of society/civilization at a constant rate requires more and more resources to bandage and compensate. But again, you do you, and to each their own. Its one of the appealing things about 40k. its everyones story, and its no ones.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Yes there is, there could be a story that spanned a few years of Cawl toiling at making marines, creating and field testing marines etc. making great lore and novels on the matter, having lore liek the traitors trying to sabotage and steal the project etc. That would actually be cool, rather than just plopping down the models one day and saying 'yeah now these are called primaris, we've written some contrived ex-machina bs lore, because we don't know how to plan in advance, but we hope you buy our product with gak lore, because all we care about is that cheddar.'
I'm more annoyed at the size discrepancy between old models and primaris models. Either do one or the other donkey-caves!
The Blood Angels lost their ability to make classic marines. During the Desolation of Baal, the Tyranids destroyed the Sarcophagi. So only Primaris for us.
They dont' need sarcophagi. They just prefer it.
The Aspirants drink the Primarch's blood and sleep for a year in the sarcophagi. Page 11, fourth paragraph under creation of Angels.
The Blood Angels lost their ability to make classic marines. During the Desolation of Baal, the Tyranids destroyed the Sarcophagi. So only Primaris for us.
They dont' need sarcophagi. They just prefer it.
The Aspirants drink the Primarch's blood and sleep for a year in the sarcophagi. Page 11, fourth paragraph under creation of Angels.
Yeah that's just an unnecessary ritual. So no they didn't lose the ability.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: From the 500 hundred facts for 500 stores on WH Community, Fact 86: "Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines."
I find it amusing that Primaris having limited wargear options is apparently the actual lore. Is a lascannon too smal for a Primaris Marine's big meaty hands?
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: From the 500 hundred facts for 500 stores on WH Community, Fact 86: "Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines."
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: From the 500 hundred facts for 500 stores on WH Community, Fact 86: "Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines."
I find it amusing that Primaris having limited wargear options is apparently the actual lore. Is a lascannon too smal for a Primaris Marine's big meaty hands?
Funnily enough, if you compare the hands of a Primaris model to those of a classic marine, you will find Primaris actually have slightly smaller hands.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: From the 500 hundred facts for 500 stores on WH Community, Fact 86: "Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines."
AKA: build the army you want and stop asking us about it already.
The Blood Angels lost their ability to make classic marines. During the Desolation of Baal, the Tyranids destroyed the Sarcophagi. So only Primaris for us.
That’s not true, they must have found replacements. The blood angels codex confirms they are still making normal marines alongside Primaris.
keep in mind that chapters likely have limited supplies of Primaris Geneseed (we have no idea if primaris geneseed can be upgraded or they just start fresh, if they start fresh I could see a lotta chapters wanting to continue using old geneseed because "it came from this heroic memeber") also Primaris Equipment is likely hardish to get in comparison. chapters have armories full of old stuff, but primaris stuff would be much more limited because it has been in production for such a short period. chances are Cawl himself only made eneugh to supply the Marines he made, plus a degree of extras. that could bottle neck the IoMs ability to expand their primaris forces a bit.
The Blood Angels lost their ability to make classic marines. During the Desolation of Baal, the Tyranids destroyed the Sarcophagi. So only Primaris for us.
They dont' need sarcophagi. They just prefer it.
The Aspirants drink the Primarch's blood and sleep for a year in the sarcophagi. Page 11, fourth paragraph under creation of Angels.
Yeah that's just an unnecessary ritual. So no they didn't lose the ability.
Please site the page where it says that. I think you guys are confusing the tendency of Blood Angels to sleep in the sarcophagi later in their lives with the creation of Blood Angels where it necessary. I guess they could stack the sleeping Aspirants in the hallway, but a Dreadnought might step on them.
FYI, The codex does not cover the destruction of the Sarcophagi, that happens in the Novel Desolation of Baal.
The Blood Angels lost their ability to make classic marines. During the Desolation of Baal, the Tyranids destroyed the Sarcophagi. So only Primaris for us.
They dont' need sarcophagi. They just prefer it.
The Aspirants drink the Primarch's blood and sleep for a year in the sarcophagi. Page 11, fourth paragraph under creation of Angels.
Yeah that's just an unnecessary ritual. So no they didn't lose the ability.
Please site the page where it says that. I think you guys are confusing the tendency of Blood Angels to sleep in the sarcophagi later in their lives with the creation of Blood Angels where it necessary. I guess they could stack the sleeping Aspirants in the hallway, but a Dreadnought might step on them.
FYI, The codex does not cover the destruction of the Sarcophagi, that happens in the Novel Desolation of Baal.
I mean no other Chapters need to do it, and I'm not sure if Blood Angels successors need to do the same thing.
I liked the mention in the 500 facts that some chapters are still making "mark one" marines to make use of old gear and tactics. Makes sense. No point in throwing out thousands of vehicles, sets of armor, and weapons that no one else could have used just because of an upgrade.
You know, kind of like how its economically stupid to make your most popular range of kits obsolete overnight
That 500 facts thing actually had a lot of cool little nods that I hadn't heard before, it was a fun article.
The Blood Angels lost their ability to make classic marines. During the Desolation of Baal, the Tyranids destroyed the Sarcophagi. So only Primaris for us.
They dont' need sarcophagi. They just prefer it.
The Aspirants drink the Primarch's blood and sleep for a year in the sarcophagi. Page 11, fourth paragraph under creation of Angels.
Yeah that's just an unnecessary ritual. So no they didn't lose the ability.
Please site the page where it says that. I think you guys are confusing the tendency of Blood Angels to sleep in the sarcophagi later in their lives with the creation of Blood Angels where it necessary. I guess they could stack the sleeping Aspirants in the hallway, but a Dreadnought might step on them.
FYI, The codex does not cover the destruction of the Sarcophagi, that happens in the Novel Desolation of Baal.
I mean no other Chapters need to do it, and I'm not sure if Blood Angels successors need to do the same thing.
Even if the BA absolutely need the sarcophagi it is probably possible to build more, considering that they have always been able to create new successor chapters.
Stormonu wrote: Or perhaps borrow one from a successor chapter or two?
Yeah I've seen that option referenced before on fan pages. Let's not forget that the original Imperial Fists (i.e. a direct continuation of the legion) no longer exist, the current Imperial Fists are actually an amalgamation of successor chapter lineages post War of the Beast.
Stormonu wrote: Or perhaps borrow one from a successor chapter or two?
Yeah I've seen that option referenced before on fan pages. Let's not forget that the original Imperial Fists (i.e. a direct continuation of the legion) no longer exist, the current Imperial Fists are actually an amalgamation of successor chapter lineages post War of the Beast.
To be fair, at the time of the War of the Beast, the Second Founding Chapters were basically rebranded Legion-Chapters from the original legion anyway. They hadn't yet diverged enough to be considered unique, with the possible exception of the Black Templars but only because Sigismund is a literal lunatic.
MrMoustaffa wrote: I liked the mention in the 500 facts that some chapters are still making "mark one" marines to make use of old gear and tactics. Makes sense. No point in throwing out thousands of vehicles, sets of armor, and weapons that no one else could have used just because of an upgrade.
You know, kind of like how its economically stupid to make your most popular range of kits obsolete overnight
That 500 facts thing actually had a lot of cool little nods that I hadn't heard before, it was a fun article.
Speaking of the 500 facts:
210. Space Marines were originally designed to wear knee-high armoured boots, but at the time, they couldn’t be cast in plastic. Hence their iconic flared greaves were born!
That sounds like the Reiver's armoured boots and explains the inspiration for that choice (a choice I rather like to be honest).
Thing is if GW cans old marines then theyd be getting rid of their more iconic stuff like the deathwing. The terminators are just too awesome and none of the primaris stuff comes close. The aggressors just look derpy and have a more typical sci fi starcraft look imo. They're still making video games based on pre primaris stuff. I think they would be comitting IP suicide to just get rid of so much cool stuff. The primaris are too shallow to replace the old marines
Thargrim wrote: Thing is if GW cans old marines then theyd be getting rid of their more iconic stuff like the deathwing. The terminators are just too awesome and none of the primaris stuff comes close. The aggressors just look derpy and have a more typical sci fi starcraft look imo. They're still making video games based on pre primaris stuff. I think they would be comitting IP suicide to just get rid of so much cool stuff. The primaris are too shallow to replace the old marines
Nah, there will just be Primaris Terminators at some point (hopefully soon.)
Thargrim wrote: Thing is if GW cans old marines then theyd be getting rid of their more iconic stuff like the deathwing. The terminators are just too awesome and none of the primaris stuff comes close. The aggressors just look derpy and have a more typical sci fi starcraft look imo. They're still making video games based on pre primaris stuff. I think they would be comitting IP suicide to just get rid of so much cool stuff. The primaris are too shallow to replace the old marines
Well of course they're more shallow and less iconic, it's only been around a year since we started seeing them introduced into the game. That sort of thing takes time to build up. Give it five years or so and no one will be thinking about it even half as much as we do now.
Thargrim wrote: Thing is if GW cans old marines then theyd be getting rid of their more iconic stuff like the deathwing. The terminators are just too awesome and none of the primaris stuff comes close. The aggressors just look derpy and have a more typical sci fi starcraft look imo. They're still making video games based on pre primaris stuff. I think they would be comitting IP suicide to just get rid of so much cool stuff. The primaris are too shallow to replace the old marines
Nah, there will just be Primaris Terminators at some point (hopefully soon.)
This is my feeling too.
Same general aesthetic as regular Termies, but scaled and proportioned. Like Intercessors are to Tacticals.
I don't expect it any time soon though, it'll be a longer term things.
I imagine Primaris terminators will be similar to aggressors but without the backpacks and probably extra plates. Either way I'm expecting a captain, librarian and Chaplin in that Armour.
Also where's the Primaris techmarine? Not that they're an ideal HQ but still
Thargrim wrote: Thing is if GW cans old marines then theyd be getting rid of their more iconic stuff like the deathwing. The terminators are just too awesome and none of the primaris stuff comes close. The aggressors just look derpy and have a more typical sci fi starcraft look imo. They're still making video games based on pre primaris stuff. I think they would be comitting IP suicide to just get rid of so much cool stuff. The primaris are too shallow to replace the old marines
Nah, there will just be Primaris Terminators at some point (hopefully soon.)
I know a lot of people don't agree, but from where I'm standing the Aggressors are a 5++ away from being a reasonable Terminator substitute for Primaris. Plus or minus a "Krakstorm" unit upgrade for the grenade launchers.
Thargrim wrote: Thing is if GW cans old marines then theyd be getting rid of their more iconic stuff like the deathwing. The terminators are just too awesome and none of the primaris stuff comes close. The aggressors just look derpy and have a more typical sci fi starcraft look imo. They're still making video games based on pre primaris stuff. I think they would be comitting IP suicide to just get rid of so much cool stuff. The primaris are too shallow to replace the old marines
Nah, there will just be Primaris Terminators at some point (hopefully soon.)
I know a lot of people don't agree, but from where I'm standing the Aggressors are a 5++ away from being a reasonable Terminator substitute for Primaris. Plus or minus a "Krakstorm" unit upgrade for the grenade launchers.
They don't look sufficiently terminatory. I want something like the new Custodes Terminators, except with way less bling.
Thargrim wrote: Thing is if GW cans old marines then theyd be getting rid of their more iconic stuff like the deathwing. The terminators are just too awesome and none of the primaris stuff comes close. The aggressors just look derpy and have a more typical sci fi starcraft look imo. They're still making video games based on pre primaris stuff. I think they would be comitting IP suicide to just get rid of so much cool stuff. The primaris are too shallow to replace the old marines
Nah, there will just be Primaris Terminators at some point (hopefully soon.)
I know a lot of people don't agree, but from where I'm standing the Aggressors are a 5++ away from being a reasonable Terminator substitute for Primaris. Plus or minus a "Krakstorm" unit upgrade for the grenade launchers.
While they're both durable elite troops, they currently fulfill very different battlefield roles. I don't think it would be difficult to keep Aggressors and Primaris Terminators separate and well defined.
I was personally a little surprised that Aggressors were not replacement Terminators (because they're really not unless they replace/boost their stats eventually). It saddens me though, since Aggressors come three to a box, and future Terminators will likely be the same (or worse - be Centurion scaled).
The Centurion models really aren't bad with only a small amount of work. Even just taking off that weird padding around their legs makes them look a LOT better.
fraser1191 wrote: I imagine Primaris terminators will be similar to aggressors but without the backpacks and probably extra plates. Either way I'm expecting a captain, librarian and Chaplin in that Armour.
Also where's the Primaris techmarine? Not that they're an ideal HQ but still
He's sitting in the Repulsor's gunner seat manning the Onslaught Gatling Cannon.
That said, I want a Primaris Techmarine model just so I can use him with Thunderfire Cannon and keep the theme of my army intact visually at least.
fraser1191 wrote: I imagine Primaris terminators will be similar to aggressors but without the backpacks and probably extra plates. Either way I'm expecting a captain, librarian and Chaplin in that Armour.
Also where's the Primaris techmarine? Not that they're an ideal HQ but still
He's sitting in the Repulsor's gunner seat manning the Onslaught Gatling Cannon.
That said, I want a Primaris Techmarine model just so I can use him with Thunderfire Cannon and keep the theme of my army intact visually at least.
a primaris Techmarine would be nice yeah, heck just give us a thunderfire canon in plastic with a primaris tech marine, two needs 1 release!
fraser1191 wrote: I mean barring deep strike an invuln and a 2+(which you can get in cover) aggressors are just shootier terminators with T5
They really aren't.
That's like saying barring deep strike, an invuln, and a 2+ Devastators are just Terminators with heavy weapons.
Aggressors are mobile rigs for support systems such as weapon rigs and jet packs. Terminators are tactical suits of armour that allows the user to perform assaults and precision strikes in a variety of battlefield situations. Both in rules and lore they can occupy quite different design space very easily.
