Theory: Games Workshop found out they couldn't copyright "Space Marine" so decided they needed to introduce a copyright-able Space Marine. To make a clear visual distinction they took the "true scale marines" idea and introduced some cosmetic differences. They named the new style "Primaris" to make you think "Primary" ie the first and most important marines you should buy. A full model range of copyright-able Primaris unit types will be released, then the regular marines will be killed in the fluff and the model range discontinued.
Do you think this is true? Is this the last opportunity for nostalgic 3rd edition players to buy real marines before they're nerfed ALA Warhammer? How will the regular marines be killed in the fluff: virus, civil war, old-age retirement village?
No. Where are iconic land speeders, bikes etc? I would buy true scale marines (specially ravenwing) but not primaris. They have different lore than basic marines. I think they are like cult marines in CSM.
This has been a topic of much debate already, and the community is pretty divided on what they think the long game is .
Personally I don't think they're likely to ever release an old scale marine kit again (outside of some sort of nostalgic special edition type release), but at the same time there's no reason for the to withdraw old kits from sale while they are selling well. So it could easily take a decade to see the old marines leave the shelves, given how long a lot of kits stick around for anyway.
If Kirby had remained CEO, I believe Primaris would have replaced marines.
I believe when Roundtree received the reigns, they were too far into development to can Primaris, so they had to be released, but I'm betting they were changed from a definite replacement line to a "wait and see" supplement.
At this point, time will tell if they replace marines (I think they will, but maybe 5 years or more down the road); their options are simpler than the current marine sets, which GW does seem to want to move in. The infantry section is mostly present, but vehicle options are lacking.
I think the copyright issue is kind of a red herring, although I agree that it's quite clear that Primaris are destined to replace the old marines eventually.
The problem with re-scaling the marine line now, more so than last time around, is that the range is huge, so replacing it all is a similarly huge, and expensive, endeavor. Introducing the re-scaled guys as nu-marines gives them some space to pace out the releases and then eventually quietly retire the stunties once everyone is used to the idea that the Primaris guys are the new standard.
Fluff-wise, I expect that they'll continue to advance the story, with the older marines slowly whittled down from normal attrition and their ranks being refilled with Primaris, until it reaches a point where there's just not enough of the old guys left to be relevant.
They already had the trademark angle covered with Adeptus Astartes, so I don't think that has much to do with it. I think that Space Marines were the victim of their own success. GW's bread and butter is selling new marine kits, but the marine range was largely 'complete' with crisp, modern kits for nearly everything (with a few exceptions like bikers, scouts etc). They'd been trying to invent new marine units for a while with things like centurions. What else new can you add to keep up those new kit sales? The next step on that path was to reinvent the line as a whole. So while the modern kits were crisp, fresh and packed with bits, they were still based on a marine scale and aesthetic that was set 20 years ago and the truescale community online has always been quite vocal. It's quite easy to see where the jump came to "let's do truescale marines, that lets us keep releasing marine stuff, and people seem to want it".
The next problem is, do your new truescale marines replace the existing ones? As it, do you make your new truescale kit and say "this is what tactical marines look like now." You can, but a large proportion of space marine collectors are going to be fuming that they feel their army has been made obsolete and invalidated overnight. A lot of these people would be likely to quit marines entirely rather than buy the new stuff, at least in the short term. In addition to that you face several years of awkward transition where the early kits you replace (which would be the generic stuff like tacticals) are bigger and better looking than the elites and heroes. So instead they came up with primaris as a concept - these are new marines. No, your existing marines are still valid. Here, buy these new ones and add them to your army!
Is their eventual goal to replace marines classic? I think people are too keen to assign GW a masterplan on this one - they will do whatever they think will make them the most money. For the time being that's introducing new Primaris kits, because there's still lots of gaps in that range and kits obviously have the biggest spike in their sales when they're brand new. But once the range has filled out a bit more, I expect the accountants will study the sales figures and see how things have worked out. I think they probably expected people to jump on the new marines because they're better scaled, better proportioned and better posed, and that it would be an obvious, gradual shift. Nobody would want old marines now that they can see the new boys. But at the same time, they have absolutely no reason to discontinue the old marines so long as they still sell. Some people here have made claims that primaris haven't sold as well as GW expected and that they've slowed down their releases as a result. I don't know where that information comes from or if there's any truth to it but it's interesting if is is true.
I feel that going forward, new players will gravitate towards Primaris. They're bigger, better posed, better proportioned, and new folks don't have the weight of history and lore to make them fond of old marines.Old players will split. Some will move to the new stuff because the upgrading scale trumps any fondness for the old lore. Some will prefer old marines because even though the look is outdated, they love the lore, concept and design of tactical squads, devastators, terminators more than aggressors and inceptors. Those folks will probably continue buying classic marines for some time to come, and as long as they keep buying GW has no reason to stop selling. For the moment I fall largely into that latter group; while I feel that the basic intercessors look good I just don't like the aesthetic design choices made for the rest of the primaris range.
But don't expect any new designs, ever, for hobbit marines.
Well that would mean GK are never going to get fixed, they don't have access to primaris as the only marine chapter. And GW seems to want to change rules for stuff with models only, preferably with new models.
The problem with re-scaling the marine line now, more so than last time around, is that the range is huge, so replacing it all is a similarly huge, and expensive, endeavor. Introducing the re-scaled guys as nu-marines gives them some space to pace out the releases and then eventually quietly retire the stunties once everyone is used to the idea that the Primaris guys are the new standard.
This, and the fact that AoS seem to have shown GW that while they are people who are all in on the new stuff no matter what it is, there is also a group of people that were willing to do black PR in FLGS for free, if primaris were a day one replacment of normal marines. It is too risky to try.
My friend had a fun "theory" about marines and primaris in 8th. He said that GW wants to keep them as flag ship, but also make them all feel bad to play, so when the time comes to bring new primaris let say bikers or assault jump dudes, the people who played those in 8th or maybe even 9th, are going to hate the normal marine version so much, they will welcome the primaris with open arms. He also joked that if GW suddenly made female GK, I would gobble them up if they had good rules, stupid fluff or not. And at least about the second thing he is right.
But don't expect any new designs, ever, for hobbit marines.
Well that would mean GK are never going to get fixed, they don't have access to primaris as the only marine chapter. And GW seems to want to change rules for stuff with models only, preferably with new models.
What makes you think GKs won't get Primaris in the near future?
Maybe that's why they haven't been touched much even.
Over 8th all chapters were getting primaris through FAQs, GK did not. That is one thing. So the option to just slam primaris in to the GK codex seems to not be an option considered by GW.
The other is what other people said, if GW wanted to make GK the primaris faction, they could have done so when the codex came out or the CA or the FAQs. In fact through 8th FAQs, errata etc GW is slowly removing options other marines have, through FW for example, from GKs.
They also seem to at least say something about factions that aren't unupdated or screwed over by the FAQ. SoB were told a year in advance they will get new models and a codex, GSC were told to not worry as the new codex will fix their stuff. GK get zero info. No one seems to play them at the studio, no one seems to pationate about them. why would they get an update at all. There is probablly more orc or chaos players at GW, and the design seems to be hell bend on giving eldar new ways to play. I don't think they have the time to sit down and design new GK models and rules for them. They don't even have time to give GK a FAQ.
Karol wrote: Over 8th all chapters were getting primaris through FAQs, GK did not. That is one thing. So the option to just slam primaris in to the GK codex seems to not be an option considered by GW.
The other is what other people said, if GW wanted to make GK the primaris faction, they could have done so when the codex came out or the CA or the FAQs. In fact through 8th FAQs, errata etc GW is slowly removing options other marines have, through FW for example, from GKs.
They also seem to at least say something about factions that aren't unupdated or screwed over by the FAQ. SoB were told a year in advance they will get new models and a codex, GSC were told to not worry as the new codex will fix their stuff. GK get zero info. No one seems to play them at the studio, no one seems to pationate about them. why would they get an update at all. There is probablly more orc or chaos players at GW, and the design seems to be hell bend on giving eldar new ways to play. I don't think they have the time to sit down and design new GK models and rules for them. They don't even have time to give GK a FAQ.
It's not that simple. You can't just give GKs Intercessors and say job done.
They'll need unique Primaris units, with force weapons and boltsorm gauntlets or something like that.
Clearly GW decided to focus on getting the generic Primaris out first, and in my opinion simply haven't had a window in the design, production and release schedule to do the GK ones yet.
From a lore standpoint, it doesn't make a lot of sense that GK would have Primaris. They are a chapter that exists in secret, I'm not even sure Gulliman knows about them since they we're around in his day.
techsoldaten wrote: From a lore standpoint, it doesn't make a lot of sense that GK would have Primaris. They are a chapter that exists in secret, I'm not even sure Gulliman knows about them since they we're around in his day.
While it's possible he might not know about them, it's equally possible he does. It's pretty easy to write the fluff to have him giving them Primaris tech of so, and if that's the way GW want to go with them.
techsoldaten wrote: From a lore standpoint, it doesn't make a lot of sense that GK would have Primaris. They are a chapter that exists in secret, I'm not even sure Gulliman knows about them since they we're around in his day.
maeglin wrote: Theory: Games Workshop found out they couldn't copyright "Space Marine" so decided they needed to introduce a copyright-able Space Marine. To make a clear visual distinction they took the "true scale marines" idea and introduced some cosmetic differences. They named the new style "Primaris" to make you think "Primary" ie the first and most important marines you should buy. A full model range of copyright-able Primaris unit types will be released, then the regular marines will be killed in the fluff and the model range discontinued.
Do you think this is true? Is this the last opportunity for nostalgic 3rd edition players to buy real marines before they're nerfed ALA Warhammer? How will the regular marines be killed in the fluff: virus, civil war, old-age retirement village?
Angus
Well the theory is flawed because while they couldn't trademark "Space Marine" they did trademark "Adeptus Astartes". Also, it's more to do with the ridiculous bloat of the Space Marines line and the only avenue left being "well let's make them bigger" to fix the issue. Plus the new Primaris fit the lore of not being as effective alone as the Imperium is when fighting as a collective hole and benefit more from allies than the generic guys do to fill holes in their lists (for now at least, let's give them 20 years to muck that up) so you could argue they're there to sell allies to little Billy and his new Ultramarines army.
Fluff-wise, I expect that they'll continue to advance the story, with the older marines slowly whittled down from normal attrition and their ranks being refilled with Primaris, until it reaches a point where there's just not enough of the old guys left to be relevant.
The trouble with this is while fluff attrition can occur the collections are immortal.
"So all the basic marines from chapter x were killed in battle? No. I have 200 on my shelf."
Fluff-wise, I expect that they'll continue to advance the story, with the older marines slowly whittled down from normal attrition and their ranks being refilled with Primaris, until it reaches a point where there's just not enough of the old guys left to be relevant.
The trouble with this is while fluff attrition can occur the collections are immortal.
"So all the basic marines from chapter x were killed in battle? No. I have 200 on my shelf."
Then you're playing the army at an earlier point in it's history.
BaconCatBug wrote: 9th edition will squat Old-marines. They will be index only at best.
I don't think it'll be that soon if they do it. Maybe two to three editions from now when Primaris have been fleshed out enough to function on their own without the Oldstartes support elements.
BaconCatBug wrote: 9th edition will squat Old-marines. They will be index only at best.
I don't think it'll be that soon if they do it. Maybe two to three editions from now when Primaris have been fleshed out enough to function on their own without the Oldstartes support elements.
The issue there is that anyone with a large marine collection can very easily convert or play counts as with their stuff. They'll need a load of esoteric Primaris stuff to be released first in order to avoid that happening.
BaconCatBug wrote: 9th edition will squat Old-marines. They will be index only at best.
I don't think it'll be that soon if they do it. Maybe two to three editions from now when Primaris have been fleshed out enough to function on their own without the Oldstartes support elements.
The issue there is that anyone with a large marine collection can very easily convert or play counts as with their stuff. They'll need a load of esoteric Primaris stuff to be released first in order to avoid that happening.
That's my thought as well. Not to mention I could see TOs arguing against old marines in tournaments in the future due to how much smaller they are for LOS purposes when the inevitable squatting happens.
BaconCatBug wrote: 9th edition will squat Old-marines. They will be index only at best.
I don't think it'll be that soon if they do it. Maybe two to three editions from now when Primaris have been fleshed out enough to function on their own without the Oldstartes support elements.
The issue there is that anyone with a large marine collection can very easily convert or play counts as with their stuff. They'll need a load of esoteric Primaris stuff to be released first in order to avoid that happening.
You say that like GW care about old players. GW's current business model is to attract 12 year olds using mummy's credit card who then quit after 3 weeks.
BaconCatBug wrote: 9th edition will squat Old-marines. They will be index only at best.
I don't think it'll be that soon if they do it. Maybe two to three editions from now when Primaris have been fleshed out enough to function on their own without the Oldstartes support elements.
The issue there is that anyone with a large marine collection can very easily convert or play counts as with their stuff. They'll need a load of esoteric Primaris stuff to be released first in order to avoid that happening.
You say that like GW care about old players. GW's current business model is to attract 12 year olds using mummy's credit card who then quit after 3 weeks.
You say that like Kirby is still in charge of the company.
BaconCatBug wrote: 9th edition will squat Old-marines. They will be index only at best.
I don't think it'll be that soon if they do it. Maybe two to three editions from now when Primaris have been fleshed out enough to function on their own without the Oldstartes support elements.
The issue there is that anyone with a large marine collection can very easily convert or play counts as with their stuff. They'll need a load of esoteric Primaris stuff to be released first in order to avoid that happening.
You say that like GW care about old players. GW's current business model is to attract 12 year olds using mummy's credit card who then quit after 3 weeks.
Because that's why GW's profits have skyrocketed. They're being solely supplied by a three-week binge of a horde of teenagers. Obviously.
My guess is the old marines will be done away with by a simple lore edit whereby Cawl finds a way to "Upgrade" all existing marines into Primaris, and they become the new "regular" marines all the same. Two editions from now, the whole primaris distinction will simply be a footnotes referencing the reinforcements Guilliman brought after fall of Cadia.
This is nothing but a range refresh, but they have to do it carefully as to not piss off the fans. And of course they have to incentivize people to buy the new stuff so t's bigger, better and shinier.
But don't expect any new designs, ever, for hobbit marines.
Well that would mean GK are never going to get fixed, they don't have access to primaris as the only marine chapter. And GW seems to want to change rules for stuff with models only, preferably with new models.
The problem with re-scaling the marine line now, more so than last time around, is that the range is huge, so replacing it all is a similarly huge, and expensive, endeavor. Introducing the re-scaled guys as nu-marines gives them some space to pace out the releases and then eventually quietly retire the stunties once everyone is used to the idea that the Primaris guys are the new standard.
This, and the fact that AoS seem to have shown GW that while they are people who are all in on the new stuff no matter what it is, there is also a group of people that were willing to do black PR in FLGS for free, if primaris were a day one replacment of normal marines. It is too risky to try.
My friend had a fun "theory" about marines and primaris in 8th. He said that GW wants to keep them as flag ship, but also make them all feel bad to play, so when the time comes to bring new primaris let say bikers or assault jump dudes, the people who played those in 8th or maybe even 9th, are going to hate the normal marine version so much, they will welcome the primaris with open arms. He also joked that if GW suddenly made female GK, I would gobble them up if they had good rules, stupid fluff or not. And at least about the second thing he is right.
That sounds like the sort of thing I'd expect out of GW. Although if it is what they're up to I'd say they mucked it up, Primaris don't feel any more competitive than Oldstartes against the field.
The trouble with this is while fluff attrition can occur the collections are immortal.
"So all the basic marines from chapter x were killed in battle? No. I have 200 on my shelf."
Which you would just play as Primaris Marines once they become the standard.
Some years back, when there was a lot of online discussion about GW focusing 'too heavily' on new players at the expense of veterans, a comment came out (possibly from one of GW's financials, possibly just a store manager's briefing, and presumably from the period before GW decided that market research was pointless) to the effect that the majority of new players only actually last a year or two, and of those that are left most only last 3-5 years. If that still holds true, then if they spend an edition focusing entirely on Primaris Marines and quietly shunting regular marine kits to the less-well-lit shelves under the stairs, by the time they release a new edition with updated fluff and Marine armies built entirely around Primaris Marines, those of us with old school marine armies will be largely insignificant in the grand scheme of things.
They could do the 'nice' thing and release 'legacy' lists to cater to those older collections... or we could just restructure our marine armies to fit into whatever a Primaris-only codex will look like by then and ignore the size difference the way we all ignored the size difference between RT-era beakies and 2nd ed marines.
Not saying it's not going to be irritating for those players with current marine collections... there's no way GW are going to continue supporting two separate Marine model lines for any longer than they have to.
Some years back, when there was a lot of online discussion about GW focusing 'too heavily' on new players at the expense of veterans, a comment came out (possibly from one of GW's financials, possibly just a store manager's briefing, and presumably from the period before GW decided that market research was pointless) to the effect that the majority of new players only actually last a year or two, and of those that are left most only last 3-5 years. If that still holds true, then if they spend an edition focusing entirely on Primaris Marines and quietly shunting regular marine kits to the less-well-lit shelves under the stairs, by the time they release a new edition with updated fluff and Marine armies built entirely around Primaris Marines, those of us with old school marine armies will be largely insignificant in the grand scheme of things.
They could do the 'nice' thing and release 'legacy' lists to cater to those older collections... or we could just restructure our marine armies to fit into whatever a Primaris-only codex will look like by then and ignore the size difference the way we all ignored the size difference between RT-era beakies and 2nd ed marines.
Yep. And speaking of RT beakies, you really don't see armies made out of them often these days, and not even armies made out of 2nd ed metals and monopose plastics. It will be like that in the future with the current minimarines, most people will either drop out or move into the Primaris, the old marines becoming curios of the past era.
It seems weird that they can justify throwing out so much of the units, vehicles, and doctrines of proper Space Marines because they want to market these Primaris Marines. Assault Marines, Scouts, Devastators, Terminators, Rhinos, Land Raiders, Speeders, Bikes, Drop Pods, etc plus all the specialist variants like Sternguard, Vanguard Vets, Honor Guard, Blood/Sky/Swift Claws, Grey Hunters, Wolf Guard, etc get pushed into the corner because of marketing. Call it over reacting if you want but the direction things are heading and the silence by GW on the matter points towards this being the reality at some point in the next few years. I just don't understand how most people seem to be cool with the changes when I thought Space Marines where the #1 faction and yet they are the faction in the most danger of having their established lore and model line thrown out the window.
BaconCatBug wrote: 9th edition will squat Old-marines. They will be index only at best.
I don't think it'll be that soon if they do it. Maybe two to three editions from now when Primaris have been fleshed out enough to function on their own without the Oldstartes support elements.
The issue there is that anyone with a large marine collection can very easily convert or play counts as with their stuff. They'll need a load of esoteric Primaris stuff to be released first in order to avoid that happening.
You say that like GW care about old players. GW's current business model is to attract 12 year olds using mummy's credit card who then quit after 3 weeks.
prove it, provide some sort of evidance they "don't care about the old players" because I can prove lots to the contrary.
Evidance to the contrary of your assertation:
1: the various detachments in 8th edition, all are deliberatly designed so that anyone who fielded a formation in 7th would still be able to use those units.
2: the wealth of new additions to the line. these, save primaris marines, aren't new things but expansions of ideas that have been around for ages. Genestealer cults, Admech, etc... all are things long time fans wanted to see,
3: their engagement with the community.
I'm not saying GW isn't eprsuing new customers (they are and should be, anyone who thinks a company shouldn't be chasing new customers is a moron) but they're hardly forgetting about the current ones
Vankraken wrote: It seems weird that they can justify throwing out so much of the units, vehicles, and doctrines of proper Space Marines because they want to market these Primaris Marines. Assault Marines, Scouts, Devastators, Terminators, Rhinos, Land Raiders, Speeders, Bikes, Drop Pods, etc plus all the specialist variants like Sternguard, Vanguard Vets, Honor Guard, Blood/Sky/Swift Claws, Grey Hunters, Wolf Guard, etc get pushed into the corner because of marketing. Call it over reacting if you want but the direction things are heading and the silence by GW on the matter points towards this being the reality at some point in the next few years. I just don't understand how most people seem to be cool with the changes when I thought Space Marines where the #1 faction and yet they are the faction in the most danger of having their established lore and model line thrown out the window.
Molds wear and eventually need to be retired. That is how the old Marine models will die off: not with a bang but with a wimper and a "No Longer Available" image on the website.
Vankraken wrote: It seems weird that they can justify throwing out so much of the units, vehicles, and doctrines of proper Space Marines because they want to market these Primaris Marines. Assault Marines, Scouts, Devastators, Terminators, Rhinos, Land Raiders, Speeders, Bikes, Drop Pods, etc plus all the specialist variants like Sternguard, Vanguard Vets, Honor Guard, Blood/Sky/Swift Claws, Grey Hunters, Wolf Guard, etc get pushed into the corner because of marketing. Call it over reacting if you want but the direction things are heading and the silence by GW on the matter points towards this being the reality at some point in the next few years. I just don't understand how most people seem to be cool with the changes when I thought Space Marines where the #1 faction and yet they are the faction in the most danger of having their established lore and model line thrown out the window.
Molds wear and eventually need to be retired. That is how the old Marine models will die off: not with a bang but with a wimper and a "No Longer Available" image on the website.
Forgive me for my poor ability to convey this message accurately but let me give it a try. Why does it seem like very few people are bothered that GW is using product lines and marketing as justification for changes in the fluff. And not just the "oh we always had this" type stuff like Grav Weapons, Centurion Armor, or GK baby walkers but this massive new rework of how Space Marines are suppose to be in the fluff which makes basically the entire old way of doing things obsolete. So not only is the fluff being changed but its setting course for the entire product line to be replaced with all new models so GW can get people who play Space Marines to replace their old stuff and stop the used market from cutting into their sales. It just seems to me that being ok with phasing out an entire flagship line to be completely replaced with new models that aren't reverse compatible sends the message to GW that we as consumers are ok with our plastic figures having a shelf life and planned obsolescence.
Vankraken wrote: It seems weird that they can justify throwing out so much of the units, vehicles, and doctrines of proper Space Marines because they want to market these Primaris Marines. Assault Marines, Scouts, Devastators, Terminators, Rhinos, Land Raiders, Speeders, Bikes, Drop Pods, etc plus all the specialist variants like Sternguard, Vanguard Vets, Honor Guard, Blood/Sky/Swift Claws, Grey Hunters, Wolf Guard, etc get pushed into the corner because of marketing. Call it over reacting if you want but the direction things are heading and the silence by GW on the matter points towards this being the reality at some point in the next few years. I just don't understand how most people seem to be cool with the changes when I thought Space Marines where the #1 faction and yet they are the faction in the most danger of having their established lore and model line thrown out the window.
Molds wear and eventually need to be retired. That is how the old Marine models will die off: not with a bang but with a wimper and a "No Longer Available" image on the website.
Forgive me for my poor ability to convey this message accurately but let me give it a try. Why does it seem like very few people are bothered that GW is using product lines and marketing as justification for changes in the fluff. And not just the "oh we always had this" type stuff like Grav Weapons, Centurion Armor, or GK baby walkers but this massive new rework of how Space Marines are suppose to be in the fluff which makes basically the entire old way of doing things obsolete. So not only is the fluff being changed but its setting course for the entire product line to be replaced with all new models so GW can get people who play Space Marines to replace their old stuff and stop the used market from cutting into their sales. It just seems to me that being ok with phasing out an entire flagship line to be completely replaced with new models that aren't reverse compatible sends the message to GW that we as consumers are ok with our plastic figures having a shelf life and planned obsolescence.
GW has quietly been phasing stuff out for years now. Let's not pretend like this is suddenly a new thing now that the main Marine line is facing it.
That said, as each old-startes faces retirement we'll likely see a Primaris equiv of sorts to fill its shoes.
Several people seem to be thinking that Primaris won't replace the old marines because they don't have all the kits covered.
However, I get the impression they never will be. Marines have dozens of unit types and I'm betting in the future we will start to see some of those options quietly retire - Centurions, Thunderfire cannons, Sternguard, etc. Marines will become a simplier line - fewer options, fewer unit types - for SKU reasons, mostly.
I don't know if I'm expressing myself clearly, but I expect the marine line will contract as time passes, not that Primaris units will be expanded.
Stormonu wrote: Several people seem to be thinking that Primaris won't replace the old marines because they don't have all the kits covered.
However, I get the impression they never will be. Marines have dozens of unit types and I'm betting in the future we will start to see some of those options quietly retire - Centurions, Thunderfire cannons, Sternguard, etc. Marines will become a simplier line - fewer options, fewer unit types - for SKU reasons, mostly.
I don't know if I'm expressing myself clearly, but I expect the marine line will contract as time passes, not that Primaris units will be expanded.
I can definitely see that. The cynical part of me wants to say it'd be a way to sell allies, but it's likely more to focus what Space Marines should be like and cut down the number of units into a handful per slot.
Vankraken wrote: Why does it seem like very few people are bothered that GW is using product lines and marketing as justification for changes in the fluff.
Because that's how it's always worked?
The fluff is ultimately nothing more than a vehicle for selling miniatures. As invested in it as we may be. it's always been susceptible to changes at the whims of the designers if they feel it's better moved in a different direction.
...but its setting course for the entire product line to be replaced with all new models so GW can get people who play Space Marines to replace their old stuff and stop the used market from cutting into their sales.
Except, again, it's less (IMO) to get current players to replace their stuff as it is to entice more new players with 'better' models and a less-confusing product range.
insaniak wrote: there's no way GW are going to continue supporting two separate Marine model lines for any longer than they have to.
Arguably they've been supporting something like 6 marine model lines. There are a crap ton of marine kits, I assume because they seem to sell. Presumably they'll do what the market will bear.
I'd be really interested to know how Primaris sell compared to traditional marines these days.
Forgive me for my poor ability to convey this message accurately but let me give it a try. Why does it seem like very few people are bothered that GW is using product lines and marketing as justification for changes in the fluff. And not just the "oh we always had this" type stuff like Grav Weapons, Centurion Armor, or GK baby walkers but this massive new rework of how Space Marines are suppose to be in the fluff which makes basically the entire old way of doing things obsolete. So not only is the fluff being changed but its setting course for the entire product line to be replaced with all new models so GW can get people who play Space Marines to replace their old stuff and stop the used market from cutting into their sales. It just seems to me that being ok with phasing out an entire flagship line to be completely replaced with new models that aren't reverse compatible sends the message to GW that we as consumers are ok with our plastic figures having a shelf life and planned obsolescence.
It has got that bad for me that we are already at the point where absolutely anything can happen in the fluff and it wouldn't seem out of place, I just cant get on with it anymore.
I think its inevitable normal marines will go eventually but it will be years yet, some of the marine kits are not that old.
Not quite; the Squats/SoBs threads could, potentially, be proven to be incorrect.
The Marine Replacement threads can never be proven wrong because as long as normal Marines have not been replaced there is a possibility that they will be replaced in the future. All that can happen is that the threads be proven correct or 40k somehow dies.
Forgive me for my poor ability to convey this message accurately but let me give it a try. Why does it seem like very few people are bothered that GW is using product lines and marketing as justification for changes in the fluff. And not just the "oh we always had this" type stuff like Grav Weapons, Centurion Armor, or GK baby walkers but this massive new rework of how Space Marines are suppose to be in the fluff which makes basically the entire old way of doing things obsolete. So not only is the fluff being changed but its setting course for the entire product line to be replaced with all new models so GW can get people who play Space Marines to replace their old stuff and stop the used market from cutting into their sales. It just seems to me that being ok with phasing out an entire flagship line to be completely replaced with new models that aren't reverse compatible sends the message to GW that we as consumers are ok with our plastic figures having a shelf life and planned obsolescence.
Well, times and manufacturing has changed since the original days when marines were released. A similar example can be seen by another product that's nearly as old - console games. Look at something like Zelda. When the original game came out, the quality and ability to things with the game was very limited - visually as well as story-wise. Thirty years on, while there are those who still love the original, you couldn't just release a 8-bit follow-on game and expect it would do nearly as well as Breath of the Wild. I think 40K has some of the same problems. The old lore and models are fine for the folks who love them - but those people also probably have more than enough copies that they won't buy more. If you want to sell new models and keep interest high, they need to be up to today's manufacturing standards - both the physical models and the lore to go with them (though just having read the Gathering Storm, the prose in those books is awful and generic - like a badly summarized story from a weird hybridized 1st person/3rd person view).
Other times, the old lore simply gets restrictive, and to squeeze something new in, you've got to be able to shake some of the old baggage off. Unfortunately, it's going to tick someone off - because whatever just invalidated was what you loved best (I fall into that category with BSG, Star Trek & Star Wars - the reboots/re-imagining have somewhat left me cold). But it's got to be done at some point if you don't want your IP moldering in some closet somewhere, unable to make money because it's become passe or predictable.
Besides, GW has retconned a lot of lore over the years; we're rather used to it. Both Orks and Tyranids have had complete overhauls of their model line in previous editions, as has Dark Eldar. Just as an example, Zoanthropes used to walk around and look like Warriors with big craniums. Then there is the old screamer-killer/carnifex.
Well, I think GW wanted to advance with the game by replacing Space Marines from the dark age by Primaris Marines who mark a new age: renaissance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance
insaniak wrote: there's no way GW are going to continue supporting two separate Marine model lines for any longer than they have to.
Arguably they've been supporting something like 6 marine model lines. There are a crap ton of marine kits, I assume because they seem to sell. Presumably they'll do what the market will bear.
I'd be really interested to know how Primaris sell compared to traditional marines these days.
I've bought more regular marines over primaris since 8th dropped, but only due to liking the older models and kitbashing them with primaris. I love my hellblasters with mkIII pauldrons and Salamanders heads
Vankraken wrote: It seems weird that they can justify throwing out so much of the units, vehicles, and doctrines of proper Space Marines because they want to market these Primaris Marines. Assault Marines, Scouts, Devastators, Terminators, Rhinos, Land Raiders, Speeders, Bikes, Drop Pods, etc plus all the specialist variants like Sternguard, Vanguard Vets, Honor Guard, Blood/Sky/Swift Claws, Grey Hunters, Wolf Guard, etc get pushed into the corner because of marketing. Call it over reacting if you want but the direction things are heading and the silence by GW on the matter points towards this being the reality at some point in the next few years. I just don't understand how most people seem to be cool with the changes when I thought Space Marines where the #1 faction and yet they are the faction in the most danger of having their established lore and model line thrown out the window.
Molds wear and eventually need to be retired. That is how the old Marine models will die off: not with a bang but with a wimper and a "No Longer Available" image on the website.
Forgive me for my poor ability to convey this message accurately but let me give it a try. Why does it seem like very few people are bothered that GW is using product lines and marketing as justification for changes in the fluff. And not just the "oh we always had this" type stuff like Grav Weapons, Centurion Armor, or GK baby walkers but this massive new rework of how Space Marines are suppose to be in the fluff which makes basically the entire old way of doing things obsolete. So not only is the fluff being changed but its setting course for the entire product line to be replaced with all new models so GW can get people who play Space Marines to replace their old stuff and stop the used market from cutting into their sales. It just seems to me that being ok with phasing out an entire flagship line to be completely replaced with new models that aren't reverse compatible sends the message to GW that we as consumers are ok with our plastic figures having a shelf life and planned obsolescence.
GW has quietly been phasing stuff out for years now. Let's not pretend like this is suddenly a new thing now that the main Marine line is facing it.
That said, as each old-startes faces retirement we'll likely see a Primaris equiv of sorts to fill its shoes.
I've been wargaming for long enough to remember a time before GW sold any plastic kits at all, and pretty much every option in the Oldstartes line is bigger and (mostly) better looking than it was when I started.
Primaris feels different though. GW has never been shy about replacing a kit or vastly changing a unit's available options from one edition to the next, if they intended to replace the old marine kits with the new Primaris line I would have expected them to rip the bandaid off all at once. If that meant we all had to reorganize our old Tac and Devastator squads into Intercessor and Hellblaster squads and do some surgury to turn Assault Marines into Inceptors and Termies into Aggressors in order to keep using them so be it.
Trying to make Primaris Marines "different" from normal Marines is the mistake, in my opinion. We'd all have probably been fine if they'd said "these are the new Space Marines, they don't replace your existing models, and the "buy new stuff" buffs are going to be applied to Space Marines in general, but we hope you'll buy the new ones because they're awesome-looking!", but instead they've decided the Space Marines need to be two different Codexes badly stitched together where each half has a bit of what's needed to make the army work (Primaris have the statlines, old-Marines have the equipment) and the result is a bizarrely ineffectual schizoid Frankenstein of a book that doesn't work very well and has way too many different unit entries.
I find, particularly on dakka, the people who refuse to acknowledge that old marines will be discontinued are people who seem to read that as "GW will cancel the full Space Marine line in six months!" ---- which is something NOBODY has said.
Reality: -Outside of the occasional special character, and maybe a few chapter specific units, GW will not produce normal Space Marine kits in the future (exception: see "Escape route" below)
-All future Space Marine kits will be Primaris or similarly new units.
-Eventually the Primaris range will cover all of the areas the current Space Marine kits cover.
-This...however, is a 10-15 year plan. Not 18 months.
-Rules for old Space Marine units will stick around for 10-15-20 years, but the model line will disappear slowly but surely as kits age and are retired.
-More "fringe" low selling kits, and resin figures are more likely to disappear sooner.
It's just business. GW knows that Space Marines are their bread and butter, and despite older players thinking otherwise - new players like Primaris just fine, and loads of new 8th edition players are being introduced to Primaris as the standard Space Marine option. They were going to revamp the Space Marine model line anyway - been a long time for things like Tactical Squads, Terminators, Bikes, etc. There's zero chance GW is going to re-do these with full kit releases instead of Primaris alternatives. Not gonna happen. Also, notice that when possible the newer GW kits are designed to be far less 3rd-party friendly. No more simple torso/leg/arm/head assembly, but more bizarre swoopy assembly lines, etc. This is all simple GW business planning.
In five years time, you'll have 30-40 new marine Primaris influenced kits, and the remaining Space Marine plastic kits will be viewed as old, out of date, etc. If GW is smart they'll also slowly turn the rules in favour of Primaris and eventually the "need" for old marine models will fade, and the sales will drop enough to justify axing kits. The rules for them will probably be around for a long time - GW isn't stupid, they know people have amassed gigantic armies of current Space Marines. They're already considering the next wave of gamers though.
The escape route: -GW has an ace up their sleeve, which they "could" push. They have a small range of Horus Heresy plastics - which tons of people have been using for 40K models as well. If they expanded this line a bit, they could actually use it as an escape route for current players who refuse to buy Primaris...they have some new "old marine" sized kits which are hidden under the Horus Heresy banner. If Primaris starts to tank, they could shift a few more plastic kits under the Horus Heresy banner and keep their business plan appearing the same.
AnomanderRake wrote: Trying to make Primaris Marines "different" from normal Marines is the mistake, in my opinion. We'd all have probably been fine if they'd said "these are the new Space Marines, they don't replace your existing models, and the "buy new stuff" buffs are going to be applied to Space Marines in general, but we hope you'll buy the new ones because they're awesome-looking!", but instead they've decided the Space Marines need to be two different Codexes badly stitched together where each half has a bit of what's needed to make the army work (Primaris have the statlines, old-Marines have the equipment) and the result is a bizarrely ineffectual schizoid Frankenstein of a book that doesn't work very well and has way too many different unit entries.
Exactly. Instead of releasing new, bigger space marines, they de-valued the existing marines. Now, I think complaints about marine proportions are well overblown, and that instead of enlarging them other races needed to be shrunk down a bit, but GW could have done this without angering everyone who likes space marine lore. But they didn't, because GW has zero faith that their products will actually sell if they don't use manipulative tactics, as they have with primaris being super-duper marines who conveniently can't ride in "normal" astartes vehicles.
AnomanderRake wrote: Trying to make Primaris Marines "different" from normal Marines is the mistake, in my opinion. We'd all have probably been fine if they'd said "these are the new Space Marines, they don't replace your existing models, and the "buy new stuff" buffs are going to be applied to Space Marines in general, but we hope you'll buy the new ones because they're awesome-looking!", but instead they've decided the Space Marines need to be two different Codexes badly stitched together where each half has a bit of what's needed to make the army work (Primaris have the statlines, old-Marines have the equipment) and the result is a bizarrely ineffectual schizoid Frankenstein of a book that doesn't work very well and has way too many different unit entries.
Exactly. Instead of releasing new, bigger space marines, they de-valued the existing marines. Now, I think complaints about marine proportions are well overblown, and that instead of enlarging them other races needed to be shrunk down a bit, but GW could have done this without angering everyone who likes space marine lore. But they didn't, because GW has zero faith that their products will actually sell if they don't use manipulative tactics, as they have with primaris being super-duper marines who conveniently can't ride in "normal" astartes vehicles.
They didn't "anger[] everyone who likes space marine lore".
I'm big into the lore and also love Primaris. It's not mutually exclusive.
This discussion has been had a thousand times and the answer is no, primaris are not going to replace space marines, and if they are, it will not be for many many years.
Fluff-wise, I expect that they'll continue to advance the story, with the older marines slowly whittled down from normal attrition and their ranks being refilled with Primaris, until it reaches a point where there's just not enough of the old guys left to be relevant.
The trouble with this is while fluff attrition can occur the collections are immortal.
"So all the basic marines from chapter x were killed in battle? No. I have 200 on my shelf."
Then you're playing the army at an earlier point in it's history.
Fluff-wise, I expect that they'll continue to advance the story, with the older marines slowly whittled down from normal attrition and their ranks being refilled with Primaris, until it reaches a point where there's just not enough of the old guys left to be relevant.
The trouble with this is while fluff attrition can occur the collections are immortal.
"So all the basic marines from chapter x were killed in battle? No. I have 200 on my shelf."
Then you're playing the army at an earlier point in it's history.
Didnt work that way for squats.
Unlike the Squats the old Marines at least have something to replace them you can field the old models as.
Lads hear me out here... maybe I've been huffing on the ol' party pipe a lil too much lately but is it possible that GW have listened to their fanbase to an extent? for the entirety of 8th edition marine players have insisted that space marines aren't tough enough to justify their cost... and now they've made tougher marines with an extra wound... what if going forward we see classic marines fall into the role that 4th/5th ed scouts used to fulfil? with a price drop to the classics, Primaris would become a better representation of "true" elite warriors, and the classic marines we all love would be a cheaper, if slightly less durable alternative for special/heavy weapons? Thanks for coming to my Ted talk
Automatically Appended Next Post: Lads hear me out here... maybe I've been huffing on the ol' party pipe a lil too much lately but is it possible that GW have listened to their fanbase to an extent? for the entirety of 8th edition marine players have insisted that space marines aren't tough enough to justify their cost... and now they've made tougher marines with an extra wound... what if going forward we see classic marines fall into the role that 4th/5th ed scouts used to fulfil? with a price drop to the classics, Primaris would become a better representation of "true" elite warriors, and the classic marines we all love would be a cheaper, if slightly less durable alternative for special/heavy weapons? Thanks for coming to my Ted talk
insaniak wrote: Intruducing a whole new troop type is an expensive way to fix a power imbalance when you can just change the rules of the existing units...
It's a great way to do it if you intend to also sell new models while simultaneously changing the army's design.
maeglin wrote: Theory: Games Workshop found out they couldn't copyright "Space Marine" so decided they needed to introduce a copyright-able Space Marine. To make a clear visual distinction they took the "true scale marines" idea and introduced some cosmetic differences. They named the new style "Primaris" to make you think "Primary" ie the first and most important marines you should buy. A full model range of copyright-able Primaris unit types will be released, then the regular marines will be killed in the fluff and the model range discontinued.
Do you think this is true? Is this the last opportunity for nostalgic 3rd edition players to buy real marines before they're nerfed ALA Warhammer? How will the regular marines be killed in the fluff: virus, civil war, old-age retirement village?
OK, so I haven't read most of this thread, but I believe you were right when you mentioned GW tried to copyright Space Marine and couldn't. That's why they aren't called Space Marines but Adeptus Astartes instead. That's a name they can copyright. As far as Primaris Marines, you can probably copyright that as well. But, I believe the actual copyright was created around Adeptus Astartes riather than Primaris.
Stux wrote: While it proves nothing definitively, there was perhaps a hint of GW's stance on this with today's Kill Team Commanders reveal.
Adeptus Astartes Commander options are ALL Primaris. Captain, Chaplain, Librarian, Lieutenant. Buy all Primaris.
(EDIT: That was a typo, should have been 'but'. Seems appropriate though so I'll leave it! )
on the other hand, the death watch gets a primaris captain captain, librarian or a watch captain. it could be that they simply lack a quick and easy mono pose plastic HQ for all of those versions in a old marine type but yeaaah...
Stux wrote: While it proves nothing definitively, there was perhaps a hint of GW's stance on this with today's Kill Team Commanders reveal.
Adeptus Astartes Commander options are ALL Primaris. Captain, Chaplain, Librarian, Lieutenant. Buy all Primaris.
(EDIT: That was a typo, should have been 'but'. Seems appropriate though so I'll leave it! )
on the other hand, the death watch gets a primaris captain captain, librarian or a watch captain. it could be that they simply lack a quick and easy mono pose plastic HQ for all of those versions in a old marine type but yeaaah...
I agree. But my inference is based on them clearly not seeing it as a problem that they don't have suitable old scale marine characters, and being happy to forge ahead with just Primaris ones here!
When you think about it, it's pretty obvious why they introduced primaris the way they did. If they had just made them a direct update of existing models (i.e. this is how tactical marines look from now on) people would have been able to continue using their existing collections to represent them. If the goal is to get players to repurchase their entire collections, that just won't do. So they made them new better marines that operate (for now) alongside oldmarines.
Based on this, I expect the following going forward:
1. No new non-primaris releases (obvious).
2. Primaris releases will be carefully designed to minimize options that have oldmarine analogues, making it difficult/impossible to use oldmarine models as counts as primaris.
3. Rules support for oldmarines to continue, but scaled down over time as the corresponding kits are discontinued. Expect to see the options that have the closest primaris analogues to remain the longest - reasoning being that as long as there are rules for tac marines and dreadnoughts you won't be able to use them as proxies for intercessors and redemptors and still be WYSIWYG. In fact I'd expect the tactical squad to remain long after the actual box is discontinued, just to make sure the hordes of old plastic bolter marine models can never be used as intercessors (though I expect their rules to be crap so no one will want to actually use them).
It's just a matter of time. Eventually the tactical marines with the mark 2 thru 8 armor will be phased out, lore will be retconned, and all we will have will be Primaris... but like the Space Marines currently, the Primaris marines will have a butt-load of options. Vehicles, weapons, troops, primarchs, whatever else, they'll all be there, heavily supported.
And you'll have the grognards that sit in the back of the room and regale the newbies about how they still have their old Rogue Trader marines and how those were the best of times.
Everything GW makes may someday go away. Kits that existed in the past have been phased out and replaced. Lore has been changed to fit the releases of their products. This is not new. It's just a matter of time. Anyone that says differently doesn't want to face facts.
This is why I suggest nobody start space marines. The future of the line is uncertain, most the units suck and are gimped so their primaris counterparts look better, and primaris marines don’t cover enough options to really be an army.
Jaxler wrote: This is why I suggest nobody start space marines. The future of the line is uncertain, most the units suck and are gimped so their primaris counterparts look better, and primaris marines don’t cover enough options to really be an army.
Depends what you count as 'Primaris options'.
I run and all Primaris Dark Angel successor army. I have Predators, a Dark Shroud, kit bashed Primaris scale Special Characters, and so on.
Is it top tier still? Of course not. But I feel like I have tons of options without running a single Tac, Dev, Veteran, or Assault squad.
GamerGuy wrote: Lads hear me out here... maybe I've been huffing on the ol' party pipe a lil too much lately but is it possible that GW have listened to their fanbase to an extent? for the entirety of 8th edition marine players have insisted that space marines aren't tough enough to justify their cost... and now they've made tougher marines with an extra wound... what if going forward we see classic marines fall into the role that 4th/5th ed scouts used to fulfil? with a price drop to the classics, Primaris would become a better representation of "true" elite warriors, and the classic marines we all love would be a cheaper, if slightly less durable alternative for special/heavy weapons? Thanks for coming to my Ted talk
That would be GW's style of problem-solving. Instead of fixing the issue go out of your way to cover up the problem while finding a way to profit from it.
Jaxler wrote: This is why I suggest nobody start space marines. The future of the line is uncertain, most the units suck and are gimped so their primaris counterparts look better, and primaris marines don’t cover enough options to really be an army.
Depends what you count as 'Primaris options'.
I run and all Primaris Dark Angel successor army. I have Predators, a Dark Shroud, kit bashed Primaris scale Special Characters, and so on.
Is it top tier still? Of course not. But I feel like I have tons of options without running a single Tac, Dev, Veteran, or Assault squad.
I wouldn't consider the Pred, Dak Shroud or the characters primaris options. Right now Primaris marines have no special characters and two vehicles.
Jaxler wrote: This is why I suggest nobody start space marines. The future of the line is uncertain, most the units suck and are gimped so their primaris counterparts look better, and primaris marines don’t cover enough options to really be an army.
Depends what you count as 'Primaris options'.
I run and all Primaris Dark Angel successor army. I have Predators, a Dark Shroud, kit bashed Primaris scale Special Characters, and so on.
Is it top tier still? Of course not. But I feel like I have tons of options without running a single Tac, Dev, Veteran, or Assault squad.
I wouldn't consider the Pred, Dak Shroud or the characters primaris options. Right now Primaris marines have no special characters and two vehicles.
Well that's just a matter of perspective imo.
I'm sure it won't be long until Primaris Wave 2 anyway!
drbored wrote: It's just a matter of time. Eventually the tactical marines with the mark 2 thru 8 armor will be phased out, lore will be retconned, and all we will have will be Primaris... but like the Space Marines currently, the Primaris marines will have a butt-load of options. Vehicles, weapons, troops, primarchs, whatever else, they'll all be there, heavily supported.
And you'll have the grognards that sit in the back of the room and regale the newbies about how they still have their old Rogue Trader marines and how those were the best of times.
Everything GW makes may someday go away. Kits that existed in the past have been phased out and replaced. Lore has been changed to fit the releases of their products. This is not new. It's just a matter of time. Anyone that says differently doesn't want to face facts.
We have a guy like that in our area. He never plays, just sits in the game room at our FLGS and talks, but he will constantly whine about nu-marines. He will endlessly ramble on about how great RT was "back in the day" even thought 3/4 of our local community hasn't played the game for more than 10 years. How Chaos used to be so good, and how because they were too good, they've been killed off by the company for 20 years.
Jaxler wrote: This is why I suggest nobody start space marines. The future of the line is uncertain, most the units suck and are gimped so their primaris counterparts look better, and primaris marines don’t cover enough options to really be an army.
Depends what you count as 'Primaris options'.
I run and all Primaris Dark Angel successor army. I have Predators, a Dark Shroud, kit bashed Primaris scale Special Characters, and so on.
Is it top tier still? Of course not. But I feel like I have tons of options without running a single Tac, Dev, Veteran, or Assault squad.
I wouldn't consider the Pred, Dak Shroud or the characters primaris options. Right now Primaris marines have no special characters and two vehicles.
Well that's just a matter of perspective imo.
I'm sure it won't be long until Primaris Wave 2 anyway!
I bought into vanilla marines just before the 8th ed drop. I am very not happy with the roles primaris fill, and honestly just wish they’d of released true scale marines in the same roles as old ones. Right now I don’t know which, of any, old marine units are justifiable in getting and which of mine will continue to be bad so primaris looks better.
Jaxler wrote: This is why I suggest nobody start space marines. The future of the line is uncertain, most the units suck and are gimped so their primaris counterparts look better, and primaris marines don’t cover enough options to really be an army.
Depends what you count as 'Primaris options'.
I run and all Primaris Dark Angel successor army. I have Predators, a Dark Shroud, kit bashed Primaris scale Special Characters, and so on.
Is it top tier still? Of course not. But I feel like I have tons of options without running a single Tac, Dev, Veteran, or Assault squad.
I wouldn't consider the Pred, Dak Shroud or the characters primaris options. Right now Primaris marines have no special characters and two vehicles.
Well that's just a matter of perspective imo.
I'm sure it won't be long until Primaris Wave 2 anyway!
I bought into vanilla marines just before the 8th ed drop. I am very not happy with the roles primaris fill, and honestly just wish they’d of released true scale marines in the same roles as old ones. Right now I don’t know which, of any, old marine units are justifiable in getting and which of mine will continue to be bad so primaris looks better.
See I'm gambling a little. I went a head and bought some primaris stuff with the goal of getting it commission painted piece by piece. My hope is that by 2019-2020 the army will be able to stand on its own without the midget marines and that my cost of buying the army will be spread out over a couple of years rather than all at once!
Jaxler wrote: This is why I suggest nobody start space marines. The future of the line is uncertain, most the units suck and are gimped so their primaris counterparts look better, and primaris marines don’t cover enough options to really be an army.
Depends what you count as 'Primaris options'.
I run and all Primaris Dark Angel successor army. I have Predators, a Dark Shroud, kit bashed Primaris scale Special Characters, and so on.
Is it top tier still? Of course not. But I feel like I have tons of options without running a single Tac, Dev, Veteran, or Assault squad.
I wouldn't consider the Pred, Dak Shroud or the characters primaris options. Right now Primaris marines have no special characters and two vehicles.
Well that's just a matter of perspective imo.
I'm sure it won't be long until Primaris Wave 2 anyway!
I bought into vanilla marines just before the 8th ed drop. I am very not happy with the roles primaris fill, and honestly just wish they’d of released true scale marines in the same roles as old ones. Right now I don’t know which, of any, old marine units are justifiable in getting and which of mine will continue to be bad so primaris looks better.
I don't subscribe to the idea that they would intentionally make a unit bad. That said they do need Primaris to be 'good enough to buy'.
I understand the frustration for someone in your position, I really do. But I also understand why GW felt they needed to do this to make Marine releases meaningful and desirable (for many people anyway) instead just scraping the barrel with more and more ideas along the lines of Centurions.
drbored wrote: It's just a matter of time. Eventually the tactical marines with the mark 2 thru 8 armor will be phased out, lore will be retconned, and all we will have will be Primaris... but like the Space Marines currently, the Primaris marines will have a butt-load of options. Vehicles, weapons, troops, primarchs, whatever else, they'll all be there, heavily supported.
And you'll have the grognards that sit in the back of the room and regale the newbies about how they still have their old Rogue Trader marines and how those were the best of times.
Everything GW makes may someday go away. Kits that existed in the past have been phased out and replaced. Lore has been changed to fit the releases of their products. This is not new. It's just a matter of time. Anyone that says differently doesn't want to face facts.
We have a guy like that in our area. He never plays, just sits in the game room at our FLGS and talks, but he will constantly whine about nu-marines. He will endlessly ramble on about how great RT was "back in the day" even thought 3/4 of our local community hasn't played the game for more than 10 years. How Chaos used to be so good, and how because they were too good, they've been killed off by the company for 20 years.
Ugh.
Grognards like that give us grognards a bad name. I use exclusively oldmarines and I like it!! Plus, it's really easy to kill Primaris with oldmarines.
drbored wrote: It's just a matter of time. Eventually the tactical marines with the mark 2 thru 8 armor will be phased out, lore will be retconned, and all we will have will be Primaris... but like the Space Marines currently, the Primaris marines will have a butt-load of options. Vehicles, weapons, troops, primarchs, whatever else, they'll all be there, heavily supported.
And you'll have the grognards that sit in the back of the room and regale the newbies about how they still have their old Rogue Trader marines and how those were the best of times.
Everything GW makes may someday go away. Kits that existed in the past have been phased out and replaced. Lore has been changed to fit the releases of their products. This is not new. It's just a matter of time. Anyone that says differently doesn't want to face facts.
We have a guy like that in our area. He never plays, just sits in the game room at our FLGS and talks, but he will constantly whine about nu-marines. He will endlessly ramble on about how great RT was "back in the day" even thought 3/4 of our local community hasn't played the game for more than 10 years. How Chaos used to be so good, and how because they were too good, they've been killed off by the company for 20 years.
Ugh.
Grognards like that give us grognards a bad name. I use exclusively oldmarines and I like it!! Plus, it's really easy to kill Primaris with oldmarines.
We keep him around, sort of like how kids tolerate their Alzheimers riddled parents just before sending them off to the home. One in our group even calls him Bjorn (he hates marines, especially space wolves) so it's sort of a double joke!
Togusa wrote: See I'm gambling a little. I went a head and bought some primaris stuff with the goal of getting it commission painted piece by piece. My hope is that by 2019-2020 the army will be able to stand on its own without the midget marines and that my cost of buying the army will be spread out over a couple of years rather than all at once!
That's a pretty safe gamble.
Buying minimarines as this point however would be like investing to Bretonnians during the End Times, except that we know the outcome beforehand.
In five years time, you'll have 30-40 new marine Primaris influenced kits, and the remaining Space Marine plastic kits will be viewed as old, out of date, etc.
This is about the only part I don’t fully agree with. I don’t think we will see a 1:1 kit turnover with Primaris. I suspect we will see a streamlining of the available kits. I’m thinking something like:
HQ - A couple HQ models (Greater and lesser commander of some sort)
ELITE
- Two elite units (Aggressors, ??? Probably melee-based)
TROOPS
- Dual troop unit via upgrade sprue (Intercessor/Veterans)
FAST ATTACK
- Bike (probably grav)
- Reivers (possibly a dual kit down the line, one focusing on melee, the other ranged)
HEAVY SUPPORT
- Repulsor & Repulsor variant (maybe a tracked vehicle)
- Predator replacement
DEDICATED TRANSPORT
- Rhino/Razorback meld transport (likely grav)
I’d personally be surprised if GW does any more flyer kits from here on out, so I wouldn’t expect Primaris replacements for the Stormtalon or Stormraven. And that’d be the basic line I’d expect, maybe an extra “cool” unit or two, but not much more.
In five years time, you'll have 30-40 new marine Primaris influenced kits, and the remaining Space Marine plastic kits will be viewed as old, out of date, etc.
This is about the only part I don’t fully agree with. I don’t think we will see a 1:1 kit turnover with Primaris. I suspect we will see a streamlining of the available kits. I’m thinking something like:
HQ - A couple HQ models (Greater and lesser commander of some sort)
ELITE
- Two elite units (Aggressors, ??? Probably melee-based)
TROOPS
- Dual troop unit via upgrade sprue (Intercessor/Veterans)
FAST ATTACK
- Bike (probably grav)
- Reivers (possibly a dual kit down the line, one focusing on melee, the other ranged)
HEAVY SUPPORT
- Repulsor & Repulsor variant (maybe a tracked vehicle)
- Predator replacement
DEDICATED TRANSPORT
- Rhino/Razorback meld transport (likely grav)
I’d personally be surprised if GW does any more flyer kits from here on out, so I wouldn’t expect Primaris replacements for the Stormtalon or Stormraven. And that’d be the basic line I’d expect, maybe an extra “cool” unit or two, but not much more.
ServiceGames wrote: OK, so I haven't read most of this thread, but I believe you were right when you mentioned GW tried to copyright Space Marine and couldn't. That's why they aren't called Space Marines but Adeptus Astartes instead. That's a name they can copyright. As far as Primaris Marines, you can probably copyright that as well. But, I believe the actual copyright was created around Adeptus Astartes riather than Primaris.
SG
They were called Adeptus Astartes long before the legal shenanigans arose.
And you can't 'copyright' a name. You're thinking of Trademarks. Copyright is a legal ownership that applies to artistic work. Trademarks are a claimed ownership of a name, phrase or symbol in a specific context.
Eldar Aspect Warriors were released in 1990, got resin versions in 2006 and somehow in 2018 they still haven't got round to squatting them.
GW isn't going to squat Marines. I can see them never releasing any new oldmarine kits - which might be a deal breaker for you - but that's different to saying you won't be able to use the ones you have. I can see the aesthetic annoyance of having Primaris on the table with oldmarines and it looking out of scale.
But maybe I'm strange on this - I buy models so I can use them today. If I had to wonder about whether or not they were a sound investment for the mid 2020s I'd never buy anything.
Eldar Aspect Warriors were released in 1990, got resin versions in 2006 and somehow in 2018 they still haven't got round to squatting them.
GW isn't going to squat Marines. I can see them never releasing any new oldmarine kits - which might be a deal breaker for you - but that's different to saying you won't be able to use the ones you have. I can see the aesthetic annoyance of having Primaris on the table with oldmarines and it looking out of scale.
But maybe I'm strange on this - I buy models so I can use them today. If I had to wonder about whether or not they were a sound investment for the mid 2020s I'd never buy anything.
I tend to go along with this line of thinking. I wouldn't be surprised if the number of "special" traditional marine kits comes down a few notches, but I just don't see the basic power armored guy going anywhere any time soon.
I think the fate of current index only options at the dawn of 9th edition will be a good indication of how worried you should be about vanishing rule support for older models.
Very annoyed at today's announcement that only primaris characters will be HQs for space marines in kill team. And here I was saying there's no way SMs are being phased out.
Crimson wrote: I think the fate of current index only options at the dawn of 9th edition will be a good indication of how worried you should be about vanishing rule support for older models.
This.
Which is still at least a year away. We can all relax for a while.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Very annoyed at today's announcement that only primaris characters will be HQs for space marines in kill team. And here I was saying there's no way SMs are being phased out.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Very annoyed at today's announcement that only primaris characters will be HQs for space marines in kill team. And here I was saying there's no way SMs are being phased out.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Very annoyed at today's announcement that only primaris characters will be HQs for space marines in kill team. And here I was saying there's no way SMs are being phased out.
Wat?
That's alarming.
It shouldn't be. Vigilus(the setting for Kill Team at the moment) has Primaris forces as the primaries for the Codex adhering Chapters. Tooth & Claw and Wake the Dead sets are fluffwise on Vigilus, both containing Primaris(from Space Wolves and Ultramarines respectively).
Deathwatch have the Watch Masters plus the Primaris options.
It shouldn't be. Vigilus(the setting for Kill Team at the moment) has Primaris forces as the primaries for the Codex adhering Chapters. Tooth & Claw and Wake the Dead sets are fluffwise on Vigilus, both containing Primaris(from Space Wolves and Ultramarines respectively).
Because GW wrote it so! They intentionally wrote this plot so that they could focus on the Primaris.
Deathwatch have the Watch Masters plus the Primaris options.
Watch Master doesn't currently have a Primaris kit, so it is still used, but Deathwatch only has Primaris Captains. So if a Primaris option for the role exists it will displace the minimarine one.
The commander options for kill team annoy me for to reasons. One not even giving lip service to real marines is beyond annoying. Second, really a Captain or Chaplain option but no tech marine or Apothecary? That doesn't fit the setting.
There won't be another non-primaris marine kit released going forward - that much is a given.
I also can't think of a single monopose sprue for a marine captain, librarian, or chaplain that isn't in Terminator armour.
The only non-Terminator kit I can think of it the "Space Marine Commander" box which is a single large multi-part sprue. Most of the non-terminator characters are discontinued metal or Finecast.
Stormcloud Attack - they were attempting to dump what stale stock they had. Death From the Skies - one of their poorer selling books. If flyers were "hot", we would be seeing more such units appear for the game and more stratagems based around incorporating them; they seem to have a poor fit in 8th overall and I would not be surprised if a few years down the road the models quietly slipped away and were replaced with "strafing run/bombing run/grav chute deployment" sort of stratagems that didn't require the model to be present. Heck, even drop pods seem to be in a bit of a slump this edition.
Chapter specific stuff (not to mention Jump Packs) are already off the table. GW gave us generic Marines with no CT, so it's all paint schemes to tell them apart. Which also means if the only model you have is a chapter specific one it's not getting used.
The other two I'm less sure why they didn't give them rules. Maybe it is all a sign of the end times for the old Marines being supported and pushed less and less going forward. I couldn't tell you.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, a thought crossed my mind as I hit post: never assume the community team has given us 100% of what's in the book. Wait for the book to make calls on if they're getting rules or not.
Flyers really poorly fit the scale of this game, they really should be more effects than on-table units. They didn't work spectacularly well in 6E/7E either. The flyer transports have sort of a point when they function as basically fast skimmers, but are really awkward beyond that.
Death From the Skies was also just an atrocious supplement, as most stuff of that era was, super low effort in terms of rules and gameplay quality, you basically paid $50 for a picture book.
Drop Pods though are just painfully overcosted, as many transports seem to be.
Either way, the Kill Team Primaris thing is not surprising. Kill Team is a new product and they're using it to sell whatever new kits they can. GW has no vested interest in pushing the sales of old kits until they get to the point of trying to get rid of them.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Very annoyed at today's announcement that only primaris characters will be HQs for space marines in kill team. And here I was saying there's no way SMs are being phased out.
Wat?
That's alarming.
Anyone who didn't see this coming from a mile away was naive as hell.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Very annoyed at today's announcement that only primaris characters will be HQs for space marines in kill team. And here I was saying there's no way SMs are being phased out.
Wat?
That's alarming.
Anyone who didn't see this coming from a mile away was naive as hell.
After looking at the reference I still don't see it coming.
The Primaris will be more fleshed out in future and the model range will grow, allowing for multiple builds and list variations.
Once that happens, I see no reason for people to stay so loyal to the old Astartes line whilst bashing the Primaris as the models do look better and more imposing on the tabletop.
The current issues with limited models and customisation are only temporary. If you look at the Stormcast it's easy to see how much a range can grow and develop.
That would be a huge problem for marine factions that do not have access to any primaris models. In kill team GK got the horrible champion as their character, and he doesn't even have a model. And no model means not new rules, so he stays bad.
Eldar Aspect Warriors were released in 1990, got resin versions in 2006 and somehow in 2018 they still haven't got round to squatting them.
GW isn't going to squat Marines. I can see them never releasing any new oldmarine kits - which might be a deal breaker for you - but that's different to saying you won't be able to use the ones you have. I can see the aesthetic annoyance of having Primaris on the table with oldmarines and it looking out of scale.
But maybe I'm strange on this - I buy models so I can use them today. If I had to wonder about whether or not they were a sound investment for the mid 2020s I'd never buy anything.
Why would they even be out of scale? Primaris marines are taller than regular marines. Makes sense models are bigger. If regular marine models were same size they would be too large.
Saying regular marines are out of scale is like saying dwarves are out of scale because they aren't size of humans models.
Eldar Aspect Warriors were released in 1990, got resin versions in 2006 and somehow in 2018 they still haven't got round to squatting them.
GW isn't going to squat Marines. I can see them never releasing any new oldmarine kits - which might be a deal breaker for you - but that's different to saying you won't be able to use the ones you have. I can see the aesthetic annoyance of having Primaris on the table with oldmarines and it looking out of scale.
But maybe I'm strange on this - I buy models so I can use them today. If I had to wonder about whether or not they were a sound investment for the mid 2020s I'd never buy anything.
Why would they even be out of scale? Primaris marines are taller than regular marines. Makes sense models are bigger. If regular marine models were same size they would be too large.
Saying regular marines are out of scale is like saying dwarves are out of scale because they aren't size of humans models.
Not technically true. Old scale marines ARE out of scale with other humans. They should be taller, just not as tall as Primaris. Deathwatch marines are probably about right.
Regardless of the lore though, I agree with Tyel that fielding Primaris next to Oldscale just looks weird to me.
Problem is not the old marines are too small but humans are too large. How much old marines should be enlargened? They are ATM head shorter than custodes. Which funny enough is how custodes are described. As much taller to marines as marines are to humans aka head taller.
Enlarge old marines and you have to redo whole custodian line.
tneva82 wrote: Problem is not the old marines are too small but humans are too large. How much old marines should be enlargened? They are ATM head shorter than custodes. Which funny enough is how custodes are described. As much taller to marines as marines are to humans aka head taller.
Enlarge old marines and you have to redo whole custodian line.
not totally..
friend of mine showed me some of his SM 'Heroes' I think ... they were maybe 4mm taller than current old marines but not quite Primaris height.
just enough of a difference to my untrained eye that they looked statuesque but not huge.
Thought GW had said they might release those models outside of Japan (I think~)
tneva82 wrote: Problem is not the old marines are too small but humans are too large. How much old marines should be enlargened? They are ATM head shorter than custodes. Which funny enough is how custodes are described. As much taller to marines as marines are to humans aka head taller.
Enlarge old marines and you have to redo whole custodian line.
As I say, it's more of an issue to me how it all looks on the tabletop than if it's completely lore accurate. To my eye, old marines look really silly next to Primaris.
As for things like Guardsmen, I don't really have a problem with their height, but their breadth and size of head are definitely out of whack!
I probably shouldn't have said "scale" since I am not a true-scale obsessive and so whether a marine should be x mm tall because he represents Y "feet" compared to guardsmen doesn't really bother me.
So sure I can get that in the fluff primaris are bigger - but on the table mini marines and big marines standing next to each other is really jarring - its not conducive to having a coherent army. On a more exaggerated basis I quite like the redemptor dreadnought and I quite like classic dreadnoughts - but you put them next to each other and they don't look like they belong in the same game system never mind the same roster.
This largely isn't a scale thing - but if someone was running an army which was half the most recent kits, and half the mono-pose plastic models from 20 years ago, it would look weird to me.
Agreed. My vets are kitbashed to have SM torsos, heads, arms, etc on top of intercessor legs, cut just above the belt buckle. Takes about 5 minutes per model, but results in correct scale - oldmarines are a littleshorter and less hench than primaris, but don't break the impression of scale as they normally do. I recommend it for anyone buying oldmarines (the 'leg donors' are quick-assemble intercessors - they can be had from many sources for quite cheap these days.)
Actually, a thought crossed my mind as I hit post: never assume the community team has given us 100% of what's in the book. Wait for the book to make calls on if they're getting rules or not.
Warhammer 40000 wrote:Kill Team: Commanders is almost upon us – and we've got the full list of Imperial units from the book! Find out which Commanders you'll be able to add to your roster alongside some top tactics:
I'll tell you what bothers me most about Primaris marines; everything about them is better than OldStartes except their grenades, and better grenades to go with the launcher would address the one real issue with not having heavy weapons options for them. It's so frustratingly close to being right.
If they got Missile Launcher ammo instead of the regular Frag and Krak grenades I'd have no complaints about Intercessors at all.
Again GW is basically setting the stage to kill off old marines and it's surprising to me that very few people seem to care about that. Hard to believe that people with thousands of dolllars of pre 8th edition marines would be happy to have their army's models, fluff, and all that invested money/time invalidated because GW wanted to market truescale marines as an outright replacement. The problem with this is that without major push back it's going to make it marketable to do the same for all the other 40k armies in a similar way they have been doing in AoS.
Vankraken wrote: Again GW is basically setting the stage to kill off old marines and it's surprising to me that very few people seem to care about that. Hard to believe that people with thousands of dolllars of pre 8th edition marines would be happy to have their army's models, fluff, and all that invested money/time invalidated because GW wanted to market truescale marines as an outright replacement. The problem with this is that without major push back it's going to make it marketable to do the same for all the other 40k armies in a similar way they have been doing in AoS.
Eh, I shelved my painstakingly converted marine army I've been building since 4th edition in favour of the Primaris, just like I shelved my 2nd edition Dark Angels army before that. New models come, they often look better than the older ones and stuff gets replaced. It's nothing new, not many people have armies composed of RT beakies any more these day.
Ishagu wrote: The Primaris will be more fleshed out in future and the model range will grow, allowing for multiple builds and list variations.
Once that happens, I see no reason for people to stay so loyal to the old Astartes line whilst bashing the Primaris as the models do look better and more imposing on the tabletop.
The current issues with limited models and customisation are only temporary. If you look at the Stormcast it's easy to see how much a range can grow and develop.
I'll be loyal to my army because it's what I've build, painted and played for years. While I'm probably in the minority GW will never get a dollar from me for any Primaris kits because the fluff for them is beyond boring and while the models look good, the last thing the game needed was marines 1.5. That combined with Primaris being Marines dumbed down, both model and option wise has me fairly pessimistic on th hobby. While I'm happy GW is finally being active again, it's increasing hostility to conversions and kit bashing is troubling.
Vankraken wrote: Again GW is basically setting the stage to kill off old marines and it's surprising to me that very few people seem to care about that. Hard to believe that people with thousands of dolllars of pre 8th edition marines would be happy to have their army's models, fluff, and all that invested money/time invalidated because GW wanted to market truescale marines as an outright replacement. The problem with this is that without major push back it's going to make it marketable to do the same for all the other 40k armies in a similar way they have been doing in AoS.
So you're telling us that you have never retired old models over time as your skills and models get better? I've been playing Marines since 3rd edition and I have only one model from my original army.
Vankraken wrote: Again GW is basically setting the stage to kill off old marines and it's surprising to me that very few people seem to care about that. Hard to believe that people with thousands of dolllars of pre 8th edition marines would be happy to have their army's models, fluff, and all that invested money/time invalidated because GW wanted to market truescale marines as an outright replacement. The problem with this is that without major push back it's going to make it marketable to do the same for all the other 40k armies in a similar way they have been doing in AoS.
Few people care about it!?!?
You could see for miles from the mountain of salt I've seen over Primaris!
Stormcloud Attack - they were attempting to dump what stale stock they had. Death From the Skies - one of their poorer selling books. If flyers were "hot", we would be seeing more such units appear for the game and more stratagems based around incorporating them; they seem to have a poor fit in 8th overall and I would not be surprised if a few years down the road the models quietly slipped away and were replaced with "strafing run/bombing run/grav chute deployment" sort of stratagems that didn't require the model to be present. Heck, even drop pods seem to be in a bit of a slump this edition.
There were a ton of flyers at LVO this past year. They might have wanted to turn down their stock, but I don't believe flyers are going anywhere. In fact, aren't Primaris supposed to be getting a big flyer, something called the Overlord?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vankraken wrote: Again GW is basically setting the stage to kill off old marines and it's surprising to me that very few people seem to care about that. Hard to believe that people with thousands of dolllars of pre 8th edition marines would be happy to have their army's models, fluff, and all that invested money/time invalidated because GW wanted to market truescale marines as an outright replacement. The problem with this is that without major push back it's going to make it marketable to do the same for all the other 40k armies in a similar way they have been doing in AoS.
To date I've put in over 2000$ into marines. And yep, I do not care. Primaris look way better. Plus, nothing will stop me from using what I have. I can always play with the current edition, go back to 7th, or run the indexes. They may not make anymore midget models, but nothing says you must stop playing with them as soon as primaris take over.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Newman wrote: I'll tell you what bothers me most about Primaris marines; everything about them is better than OldStartes except their grenades, and better grenades to go with the launcher would address the one real issue with not having heavy weapons options for them. It's so frustratingly close to being right.
If they got Missile Launcher ammo instead of the regular Frag and Krak grenades I'd have no complaints about Intercessors at all.
Actually that would be cool. Imagine if their GL changed to something like the following.
GL <choose profile>
Frag Grenade Assault d6 S4 AP- DMG1
Krak Grenade Assault 1 S6 AP-1 DMG 2
EMP Grenade Assault 1 S- AP-1 DMG D3 (Wound of 6+ causes 1 mortal wound to vehicles)
Incendiary Grenade Assault D3 S4 AP-2 DMG 1
Flash Grenade Assault 1 S3 AP- DMG 1 (When a unit suffers an unsaved wound, they get -1 to hit and to save for the remainder of the turn.)
After looking at the reference I still don't see it coming.
I have some nice Bretonnian models I'd like to sell to you. They'll be getting a new armybook real soon!
A few responses to illustrate my interpretation of the matter:
A: I'm pretty sure the former CEO lost his job in relation to the treatment of Warhammer Fantasy, among other things.
B: I have RTB01s that I can still use today, as Space Marines are the flagship line.
C: Even if oldmarines lose legacy support in terms of rules, the numarines are still just dudes in power armor. If push comes to shove I can still use my current models.
D: I also have Tyranids, and I doubt they're going anywhere.
E: I genuinely think it's in GWs best interest not to kill all support for traditional marines. Even if they get no new kits, and just got updated rules every now and again, I will be quite happy.
- They have replaced no current classic marine kits, all are still on sale. Many of these kits are quite new, I doubt GW will stop selling them for many years yet.
- GW said in their Primaris FAQ that they are additional reinforcements for marines, not replacements.
- Classic marines are still being made in the current dark imperium timeline fluff. Large amounts of classic marines and stuff like Bloodclaws and Scouts are still present in the fluff.
- GW actually are still making classic marine models, in small numbers, in the form of a few bits from FW and the Japan Heroes series 1 and 2. The demand for the Japan hero marines in the rest of the world has convinced GW to release them worldwide, so there is clearly still a demand for classic space marines...
- Current models may not be replaced for a long time whilst Primaris are the focus, but do you really think GW will never make new versions of iconic units at some point in the future. No more mk7 or mk6 models ever? No more Indomitus terminators ever? I seriously doubt it.
- Not everyone likes Primaris. If this is a statistically significant number of people, then they will lose money if they cut normal marines. I don’t like Primaris models, I find them too big and I dislike their proportions. Not everybody is into ‘truescale’ sized marines, I much prefer classic marines. I dislike the lack of poseability in the kits, plus I just don’t like the design style of the models.
And lastly, if they were designed as a replacement, then they are a glacially slow one. 15 months since the initial wave of Primaris have come out and all they have released since then is a handful of alternate pose lieutenant models.
Vankraken wrote: Again GW is basically setting the stage to kill off old marines and it's surprising to me that very few people seem to care about that. Hard to believe that people with thousands of dolllars of pre 8th edition marines would be happy to have their army's models, fluff, and all that invested money/time invalidated because GW wanted to market truescale marines as an outright replacement. The problem with this is that without major push back it's going to make it marketable to do the same for all the other 40k armies in a similar way they have been doing in AoS.
But again, this kind of statement seems predicated on the idea that suddenly people won't be able to use their classic Space Marines. Your models aren't invalidated until their rules disappear. Will some recent players get a bit salty having bought old marines a couple months before Primaris showed up? Sure. That's unavoidable with any new kit release. Space Marines still exist and you'll be able to field them for a decade or more - and you'll be able to buy them for a long time, and even when they disappear the market on eBay etc. will be soooo flooded with old marine kits they will be around for 20+ years.
Whether or not marines are good game-wise is another discussion entirely. The realistic people in this thread simply acknowledge that, going forward, don't plan on normal marines. Buy as many as you want right now, and for the next several years --- but don't plan on new kits supporting your old models. It's just being realistic, not salty, angry, etc.
The Newman wrote: I'll tell you what bothers me most about Primaris marines; everything about them is better than OldStartes except their grenades, and better grenades to go with the launcher would address the one real issue with not having heavy weapons options for them. It's so frustratingly close to being right.
If they got Missile Launcher ammo instead of the regular Frag and Krak grenades I'd have no complaints about Intercessors at all.
Actually that would be cool. Imagine if their GL changed to something like the following.
GL <choose profile>
Frag Grenade Assault d6 S4 AP- DMG1
Krak Grenade Assault 1 S6 AP-1 DMG 2
EMP Grenade Assault 1 S- AP-1 DMG D3 (Wound of 6+ causes 1 mortal wound to vehicles)
Incendiary Grenade Assault D3 S4 AP-2 DMG 1
Flash Grenade Assault 1 S3 AP- DMG 1 (When a unit suffers an unsaved wound, they get -1 to hit and to save for the remainder of the turn.)
All these toolbox functions would be great!
I wouldn't turn my nose up at the variety, especially not at adding Reiver-style Shock Grenades, but just the extra punch of ML ammo would be enough. Like I said, they got frustratingly close to making basic Intercessors good enough, but s6 ap1 d3 isn't quite enough to be a viable anti-tank gun and that's what they really need.
Although if you're trying to build a "pure" primaris list then anti-tank is going to be a problem for you regardless. I'll admit I rolled my Tartarus Pattern Terminators and my Centurions into my Primaris Company as "big lads that don't fit most transports".
Ishagu wrote: The Primaris will be more fleshed out in future and the model range will grow, allowing for multiple builds and list variations.
Once that happens, I see no reason for people to stay so loyal to the old Astartes line whilst bashing the Primaris as the models do look better and more imposing on the tabletop.
The current issues with limited models and customisation are only temporary. If you look at the Stormcast it's easy to see how much a range can grow and develop.
I'll be loyal to my army because it's what I've build, painted and played for years. While I'm probably in the minority GW will never get a dollar from me for any Primaris kits because the fluff for them is beyond boring and while the models look good, the last thing the game needed was marines 1.5. That combined with Primaris being Marines dumbed down, both model and option wise has me fairly pessimistic on th hobby. While I'm happy GW is finally being active again, it's increasing hostility to conversions and kit bashing is troubling.
No one is saying your army won't work in the future.
The Marine range is bloated and hit a thematic dead end. Continue on with your old Astartes.
The Primaris are a fresh start, not limited by old lore who can develop in exciting ways.
I probably own more fully painted traditional Astartes than 9 out of 10 collectors. Only Primaris excite me now, and there's nothing wrong with the lore. If you're expecting as much detail as what the classic Astartes have after 20+ years then you're being unreasonable.
I play GK, not normal marines, so maybe am not getting something, how is removing all options and making all models look more the same helps with fresh start ?
I am not saying that all tactical options are great, but at least they are there. Primaris are just same looking guys with bolters, or same looking guys with plasma cannons etc.
I think Primaris Marines are amazing models. The Inceptors especially remind me of my first models, Dorvack battlesuits and Dougram mechs. I want them all to have that blast-shield that comes with the Inceptors.
Karol wrote: I play GK, not normal marines, so maybe am not getting something, how is removing all options and making all models look more the same helps with fresh start ?
I am not saying that all tactical options are great, but at least they are there. Primaris are just same looking guys with bolters, or same looking guys with plasma cannons etc.
They'll get extra options over time? They represent a design shift as the mentality of "one unit does all" doesn't actually work on the tabletop and most options are ignored anyways?
Primaris work like the 30k legions, and are clearly inspired by mk4 armour. It's all good
The generic chaplain that was released with the librarian is also still available.
Do you mean the one that had the integrated base and was later put into a box of 3(the Captain with Combi-Grav, Librarian with Cherub, and him)?
He's not available anymore that I can find. Wasn't available outside of the box of 3 and a Razorback bundle with a Command Squad either.
Yeah, you're right - I was misremembering, and thought it was this guy.
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Vankraken wrote: Again GW is basically setting the stage to kill off old marines and it's surprising to me that very few people seem to care about that. Hard to believe that people with thousands of dolllars of pre 8th edition marines would be happy to have their army's models, fluff, and all that invested money/time invalidated because GW wanted to market truescale marines as an outright replacement. The problem with this is that without major push back it's going to make it marketable to do the same for all the other 40k armies in a similar way they have been doing in AoS.
I'm not sure how you can have missed all of the complaints about Primaris marines from the time they were announced...
Personally, I'd probably be more upset about it if I was still playing the current version of 40K, but that ship sailed in 6th edition, and 7th and 8th haven't done anything to bring me back...
robbienw wrote: - GW said in their Primaris FAQ that they are additional reinforcements for marines, not replacements.
As soon as the GW Bean Counters decide that the outrage won't cost as much as maintaining old stock, they will flip that stance in a heartbeat. I genuinely wish GW had just released Truescale marines and added new unit types rather than this convoluted mess of Chadmarines vs Oldmarines.
I'm at the point of just saying yes, let the primaris replace the old Marines. I have uncounted points of SMs including my beautiful HH Iron Hands and they just look so dinky compared to new models. Whether it's DG, genestealer cult, dark eldar, etc., The new models GW are producing are just better and out of scale with old marines. Even ignoring primaris for a moment, the fact that a normal marine is about the same height as a guardsman is just sad. Maybe they should have gone with true scale, who can say, but with the primaris here I say let old Marines fight it out in HH.
Crimson wrote:Eh, I shelved my painstakingly converted marine army I've been building since 4th edition in favour of the Primaris, just like I shelved my 2nd edition Dark Angels army before that. New models come, they often look better than the older ones and stuff gets replaced. It's nothing new, not many people have armies composed of RT beakies any more these day.
Seems alien to me but to each their own. Thing is that it's your choice to shelve them. I fear this squatting of old marines and all their associated stuff will be forced on us by omission in future rulesets.
Crimson Devil wrote:So you're telling us that you have never retired old models over time as your skills and models get better? I've been playing Marines since 3rd edition and I have only one model from my original army.
My original shoots Boyz, Kanz, Lootas, and Biker Boyz are all still actively in my army. Again I can choose to shelf anything I want but being forced to due to GW omitting their existence is not a choice.
Stux wrote: Few people care about it!?!?
You could see for miles from the mountain of salt I've seen over Primaris!
Feels like the vocal minority are opposed to them while everyone else seems to be all on board with them due to being new to the hobby, unaware that old marines are going to be going away, or don't seem to care that they are phasing them out. Again this is something that seems extremely odd to me and I don't even consider myself super invested in space marines as I'm much more into Orks and Tau.
Not really, no. There are elements I like (like rolling vehicle statlines into monstrous creatures), but overall it just didn't grab me, and the push for increasingly larger and larger models is just irritating.
My current preference is for 5th edition with modified casualty removal rules for multi-wound models, and Overwatch cribbed from 2nd edition.
. If you can't see that then maybe it's time to box or sell your models and move on to something else.
What a peculiar thing to say. Even if I were to stop playing 40K entirely, I would be unlikely to get rid of my models. An awful lot of blood, sweat and tears (at least two of those literally) has gone into that collection.
It's the golden age of the hobby. If you can't see that then maybe it's time to box or sell your models and move on to something else.
It may be rule wise but as far as actual hobby, not really. GW is putting out more and more easy to build and mono pose models. There used to be half a dozen librarian models, now for the Primaris there is one, he's mono posed with no options. What a wealth of conversion opportunities. Additionally the Primaris models are all so samemy. No weapon options, barely any options for Sarge, bitz comparability between kits is non existent. Most of there recent releases look great but a lot of stuff that came out in 8th just has no soul.
Vankraken wrote: Feels like the vocal minority are opposed to them while everyone else seems to be all on board with them due to being new to the hobby, unaware that old marines are going to be going away, or don't seem to care that they are phasing them out. Again this is something that seems extremely odd to me and I don't even consider myself super invested in space marines as I'm much more into Orks and Tau.
Even if rule support for minimarines would vanish (and it won't soon, probably) you could still use most of your old marines as counts as Primaris. But most people won't, because Primaris models look better. It is like most people upgraded their marine armies from RT beakies when better looking models became available. You don't see many Dark Eldar armies made out of first generation DE models, nor you see many Gorkamorka era or older Orks or old metal Necrons. New models get released, most people upgrade. Granted, the fluff mess and having slightly different rules makes it a tad more awkward this time, but it is ultimately the same thing.
Karol wrote: I play GK, not normal marines, so maybe am not getting something, how is removing all options and making all models look more the same helps with fresh start ?
I am not saying that all tactical options are great, but at least they are there. Primaris are just same looking guys with bolters, or same looking guys with plasma cannons etc.
They'll get extra options over time? They represent a design shift as the mentality of "one unit does all" doesn't actually work on the tabletop and most options are ignored anyways?
Primaris work like the 30k legions, and are clearly inspired by mk4 armour. It's all good
If they get new options the same way GK get, it will take them another 20-30 years to catch up to old marines. I don't understand the does all part. Unless GWFAQs something, the good armies or good units do exactly that. They do one thing good, break opposing armies very well. There is no mid pack in w40k. Only the un nerfed stuff, which even when used by some casual wrecks face, or bottom tier stuff one has to wonder why it exists at all. To not use my army as an example all the time, what need is there for 2 anti air space marine tanks, what need is there to have one?
Vankraken wrote: Feels like the vocal minority are opposed to them while everyone else seems to be all on board with them due to being new to the hobby, unaware that old marines are going to be going away, or don't seem to care that they are phasing them out. Again this is something that seems extremely odd to me and I don't even consider myself super invested in space marines as I'm much more into Orks and Tau.
Even if rule support for minimarines would vanish (and it won't soon, probably) you could still use most of your old marines as counts as Primaris. But most people won't, because Primaris models look better. It is like most people upgraded their marine armies from RT beakies when better looking models became available. You don't see many Dark Eldar armies made out of first generation DE models, nor you see many Gorkamorka era or older Orks or old metal Necrons. New models get released, most people upgrade. Granted, the fluff mess and having slightly different rules makes it a tad more awkward this time, but it is ultimately the same thing.
Its not quite the same thing though with your examples there and the difference between classic marines and Primaris.
There is a massive technical quality difference between first generation DE models and the ones that have been made more recently to use that example you have given. They were designed in different technological eras, the first lot in the era of hand sculpted miniatures and moulds made by machining, and the second lot made in the era of using CAD design and laser cut molds.
It just isn't the same with marines and primaris. Most current marine kits, with a few exceptions, are still relatively new and are CAD designed and made in laser cut moulds. Primaris aren't a massive technical leap forward like the DE in your example, they don't have any better sharper surface detailing or other technical attributes. The only real differences are their size and some body proportions, and this is subjective to individual opinion as to wether they look better or not.
Its not quite the same thing though with your examples there and the difference between classic marines and Primaris.
There is a massive technical quality difference between first generation DE models and the ones that have been made more recently to use that example you have given. They were designed in different technological eras, the first lot in the era of hand sculpted miniatures and moulds made by machining, and the second lot made in the era of using CAD design and laser cut molds.
It just isn't the same with marines and primaris. Most current marine kits, with a few exceptions, are still relatively new and are CAD designed and made in laser cut moulds. Primaris aren't a massive technical leap forward like the DE in your example, they don't have any better sharper surface detailing or other technical attributes. The only real differences are their size and some body proportions, and this is subjective to individual opinion as to wether they look better or not.
Their proportions are not fethed up, they're artistically better, thus they're better.
Their proportions are not fethed up, they're artistically better, thus they're better.
That doesn't make them objectively better, it just makes them slightly more realistically proportioned. Whether or not those proportions are better depends entirely on what you're looking for. The exaggerated and warped proportions of GW's older models aren't the result of sculptors not doing as good a job... they were a specific stylistic choice.
Primaris aren't intrinsically better, just different.
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Crimson wrote: . You don't see many Dark Eldar armies made out of first generation DE models, nor you see many Gorkamorka era or older Orks or old metal Necrons. .
While I fully acknowledge that I'm not 'most people'... My Dark Eldar army is made up of the original 3rd ed models, my Ork army is a mix of RT, 2nd ed, Space Hulk and post 3rd-ed models, and my Necron army is the old metals. While I may well collect some of the newer models at some point in the future, they won't replace the originals.
I think the Dark Eldar comparison doesn't line up all that well. The New models compared to the old ones don't look all that much alike and the replacement was almost total. Primaris vs Original Space Marines aren't that different looking. I'd consider it more like the Necron reboot, still using a bunch of existing models and adding to the range. Currently the Primaris release is kinda limited and they feel very incomplete almost two years into 8th.
Only on page one, but wanted to comment what I read so far. I don't get it. Why can't the Primaris marines just be used as regular Space Marines? Is this a strictly WYSIWYG and you can't use "counts as?" Or is this rules issues?
What is wrong saying "I have no primaris marines in my army but I like the minis and use them as if they are regular marines". What is wrong with that? Maybe someone like them because they are more true scale and uses the as regular marines. Nothing wrong in that.
Davor wrote: Only on page one, but wanted to comment what I read so far. I don't get it. Why can't the Primaris marines just be used as regular Space Marines? Is this a strictly WYSIWYG and you can't use "counts as?" Or is this rules issues?
What is wrong saying "I have no primaris marines in my army but I like the minis and use them as if they are regular marines". What is wrong with that? Maybe someone like them because they are more true scale and uses the as regular marines. Nothing wrong in that.
At least in friendly play, at least so long as they are appropriately equipped, I doubt most players would have an issue with that, any more than they have done with any of the various 'true scale' conversions people have used over the years.
BaconCatBug wrote: RaW you can use any model to represent any datasheet, as long as they are Citadel Miniatures..
That's not 'RAW'... The rules don't cover which models to use, so 'RAW' you can't actually play at all because you have no way to figure out which models go with which statline.
As scary as the concept may be, RAW is not always the answer.
The general assumption is that you should use the model that matches the unit entry, or something appropriate otherwise, and exactly where the line is drawn on what is appropriate will vary from person to person. Someone refusing to play against you because you are using 'incorrect' models isn't in the wrong, nor are you in the wrong for your choice of models. You're simply making different choices on how to play the game.
Actually, a thought crossed my mind as I hit post: never assume the community team has given us 100% of what's in the book. Wait for the book to make calls on if they're getting rules or not.
Warhammer 40000 wrote:Kill Team: Commanders is almost upon us – and we've got the full list of Imperial units from the book! Find out which Commanders you'll be able to add to your roster alongside some top tactics:
Must have missed that when I was skimming through yesterday. Well I always have the right to be wrong.
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The Newman wrote: I'll tell you what bothers me most about Primaris marines; everything about them is better than OldStartes except their grenades, and better grenades to go with the launcher would address the one real issue with not having heavy weapons options for them. It's so frustratingly close to being right.
If they got Missile Launcher ammo instead of the regular Frag and Krak grenades I'd have no complaints about Intercessors at all.
Most of them are using generic bolt pistols (which is odd since the bolt pistols the Reivers have are Heavy Bolt Pistols and are identical to the ones you see in the hands of the Intercessors and others).
Most of them are using generic bolt pistols (which is odd since the bolt pistols the Reivers have are Heavy Bolt Pistols and are identical to the ones you see in the hands of the Intercessors and others).
Actually they aren't quite the same. The Reiver pistols are noticeably larger.
ClockworkZion wrote: The heat shroud looks a smidge bigger, but the pistol itself looks about the same size. Also the Reiver has a shorter box magazine.
Point is the Heavy Bolt Pistol is larger and visually distinctive though, even if they are similar.
ClockworkZion wrote: The heat shroud looks a smidge bigger, but the pistol itself looks about the same size. Also the Reiver has a shorter box magazine.
Point is the Heavy Bolt Pistol is larger and visually distinctive though, even if they are similar.
The only thing that really makes it look like it is all the different in the round it fires is the larger hole drilled in the barrel, but honestly they look so similar I didn't even notice a difference until it was pointed out. That said, how many varient bolt guns do we have all with the same statline which could have been different? I guess this is just GW finally going "yes, the exact gun on the model does matter now" unlike before were any old bolter would do and you just picked your favorite to model with.
Me, it has pretty much driven me away. I hate the current "Vehicles are MC", Morale rules are awful and less said about Command Points, the better.
Primaris aesthetics doesn't do much for me either. Basic Primaris look good but no better than the old Marines, and rest of the Primaris range is pretty stupid. Particularly Inceptors and those idiotic 'gun shields'.
Its not quite the same thing though with your examples there and the difference between classic marines and Primaris.
There is a massive technical quality difference between first generation DE models and the ones that have been made more recently to use that example you have given. They were designed in different technological eras, the first lot in the era of hand sculpted miniatures and moulds made by machining, and the second lot made in the era of using CAD design and laser cut molds.
It just isn't the same with marines and primaris. Most current marine kits, with a few exceptions, are still relatively new and are CAD designed and made in laser cut moulds. Primaris aren't a massive technical leap forward like the DE in your example, they don't have any better sharper surface detailing or other technical attributes. The only real differences are their size and some body proportions, and this is subjective to individual opinion as to wether they look better or not.
Their proportions are not fethed up, they're artistically better, thus they're better.
That’s not the case, it doesn’t work like that.
They are subjectively better to you, because you prefer their proportions being closer to real world human/idealised human art proportions. That doesn’t make them universally better. There is no unwritten fact that says a mini must have real world proportions, they can be stylised, many art things are.
As insaniak was saying, it’s indeed a stylistic choice from GW that marines have heroic proportions. Just because they change that a bit for a marine variant,it doesn’t mean there is anything intrinsically wrong with more heroically proportioned models. Some people prefer that look.
Primaris still have a lot of heroic proportions going on anyway. Their arms are still quite long, they have massively oversized lower legs and feet, and their weapons are still oversized.
They are subjectively better to you, because you prefer their proportions being closer to real world human/idealised human art proportions. That doesn’t make them universally better. There is no unwritten fact that says a mini must have real world proportions, they can be stylised, many art things are.
As insaniak was saying, it’s indeed a stylistic choice from GW that marines have heroic proportions. Just because they change that a bit for a marine variant,it doesn’t mean there is anything intrinsically wrong with more heroically proportioned models. Some people prefer that look.
Primaris still have a lot of heroic proportions going on anyway. Their arms are still quite long, they have massively oversized lower legs and feet, and their weapons are still oversized.
Yes, nothing wrong with heroic proportions, imitating real proportions exactly doesn't work on a tiny miniature. It is just that this too is something you can do in a better or worse way, and Primaris way is better. I'm an art teacher, don't give me this 'it's just a style' bs.
In any case, regardless of what you may think, I am absolutely certain that vast majority of people who do not let their bitterness about the Primaris or fear of their old models becoming obsolete (so all the new players,at least) to affect their judgement will see the Primaris as obviously superior product and this will be felt in the sales figures. I wouldn't be surprised if in near future GW would start moving old marine models to mail order only, as there is no point in filling store shelves with stuff most people wont buy. Afterall, the people wo are mostly against the Primaris are those with extensive collections anyway, and were not gonna buy much new minimarines anyway.
Yes, nothing wrong with heroic proportions, imitating real proportions exactly doesn't work on a tiny miniature. It is just that this too is something you can do in a better or worse way, and Primaris way is better. I'm an art teacher, don't give me this 'it's just a style' bs.
In any case, regardless of what you may think, I am absolutely certain that vast majority of people who do not let their bitterness about the Primaris or fear of their old models becoming obsolete (so all the new players,at least) to affect their judgement will see the Primaris as obviously superior product and this will be felt in the sales figures. I wouldn't be surprised if in near future GW would start moving old marine models to mail order only, as there is no point in filling store shelves with stuff most people wont buy. Afterall, the people wo are mostly against the Primaris are those with extensive collections anyway, and were not gonna buy much new minimarines anyway.
I prefer primaris look in normal marines. But I don't like gravis armour and I miss primaris size terminators, land speeders (Dark Angels) etc. Normal terminator looks too small when it is next to primaris model. Primaris models look good with skitarii models so maybe I buy some primaris for mechanicus ally.
Yes, nothing wrong with heroic proportions, imitating real proportions exactly doesn't work on a tiny miniature. It is just that this too is something you can do in a better or worse way, and Primaris way is better. I'm an art teacher, don't give me this 'it's just a style' bs.
In any case, regardless of what you may think, I am absolutely certain that vast majority of people who do not let their bitterness about the Primaris or fear of their old models becoming obsolete (so all the new players,at least) to affect their judgement will see the Primaris as obviously superior product and this will be felt in the sales figures. I wouldn't be surprised if in near future GW would start moving old marine models to mail order only, as there is no point in filling store shelves with stuff most people wont buy. Afterall, the people wo are mostly against the Primaris are those with extensive collections anyway, and were not gonna buy much new minimarines anyway.
It is a stylistic difference, and it is just your subjective opinion.
Primaris are not an obviously superior product. They are just another product, you may like them better others may not. Showing a picture of a crappy 3 part paint set starter marine, instead of a multi-part tactical for example, doesn't change that. There are people out there that don't like any kind of space marine and think they all of them look stupid believe it or not.
It might be time for you to learn people have a different viewpoint to you, and your viewpoint is not fact.
I think people who doubt how the Primaris range can improve need to look at the Stormcast Eternals.
When they launched it was a limited collection of kits that were all quite generic in terms of style. Now, after several waves of additional releases, the range is far greater, more varied and has more character.
I don't want Primaris to copy the old range unit by unit. I don't want some rubbish variant like Assault Marines, or a heavy support unit limited to only 4 heavy weapons, or 4 variations of Terminators that all suck.
So far the Aggressors and Inceptors are new unit types that perform their roles well. I can't wait to see what new units are released with the next wave of models for the range.
As for how the army looks, I think people who claim to prefer the old models need to see a well painted Primaris army on the tabletop doing battle with Imperial Guard or another force. They look so much more impressive, imposing and are correctly sized. There's no question the kits are better looking.
Accepting Primaris doesn't mean you have to reject the old Marines. That range went as far as it could and is now bloated. I never want to see another Rhino chassis vehicle release lol
In any case, regardless of what you may think, I am absolutely certain that vast majority of people who do not let their bitterness about the Primaris or fear of their old models becoming obsolete (so all the new players,at least) to affect their judgement will see the Primaris as obviously superior product
It's nothing to do with bitterness. I like the Primaris proportions. I don't like their size, nor do I like that they look out of proportion to everything else in the imperial model range, nor that they're all wearing the exact same armor without the personal embellishments and piecemeal part replacement that was standard on regular marines by this point. And don't even get me started on the 47 different types of bolters...
So for me, the balance tips significantly against Primaris without 'bitterness' even entering the equation.
Ishagu wrote: As for how the army looks, I think people who claim to prefer the old models need to see a well painted Primaris army on the tabletop doing battle with Imperial Guard or another force.
Its really not difficult to look good against plastic Cadians or Catachans
I have seen many a well painted Primaris army. I've tried looking at Primaris many times and seeing if I get used to them in person, as can happen with greater exposure to minis, but its not working. They still look ugly to me!
Call me naive if you will but I really don't see this as some sort of grand conspiracy and GW won't simply shaft the older space marines. There are simply too many kits, sprues, skus, rules and the like to discontinue. Even GW knows that doing that would risk annoying too many players and fanbase.
Worst case scenario, GW moves most of the 'classic' SM stuff from in stores to GW direct which is what they have done already on some stuff. Primaris becomes the only space marine kits you can buy in store and becomes the forefront of the marketing and products you see in store.
On the flipside though, it's not the first time the 40k universe has had technology lost in the past and relegated to mere relics due to lost STC. Maybe not now but one day that could also happen.
CSM needs updating. PM and rubrics are good models but we need bigger basic marines and havocs. Question is are new models replacement or new ones like primaris?
Some help is if you use mk3 or mk4 marines from calth and prospero, but chaos needs own new models too. What GW will do them?
Stux wrote: This has been a topic of much debate already, and the community is pretty divided on what they think the long game is .
Personally I don't think they're likely to ever release an old scale marine kit again (outside of some sort of nostalgic special edition type release), but at the same time there's no reason for the to withdraw old kits from sale while they are selling well. So it could easily take a decade to see the old marines leave the shelves, given how long a lot of kits stick around for anyway.
I don't know what else has been said in this thread, but I second this.
Why is this subject so toxic? It allways ends up in two camps saying the other sides models look like gak. Feth you guys! My classic marines will live forever in the emperors holy light and primaris marines can do whatever they like. I don't care for primaris but that does not mean I want their model line discontinued so I can drink the tears of those collectors who enjoy them.
If you take models from 1992 second edition, and place them with models from 2002, and then put them next to models from 2018, I don't think a neophyte would even identify them as the same range.
So what classic marine mini's are you working to keep in stock?
Also what is the end point, GW has been quietly "squatting" individual models for years. This isn't new.
But I do think there needs to be some realism in the marine space. What exactly is the design space on old marines? New assault pack options? New tanks? what other new options? GW pruning back this model line would open up plenty of opportunity for new growth for them.
If you take models from 1992 second edition, and place them with models from 2002, and then put them next to models from 2018, I don't think a neophyte would even identify them as the same range.
So what classic marine mini's are you working to keep in stock?
Also what is the end point, GW has been quietly "squatting" individual models for years. This isn't new.
But I do think there needs to be some realism in the marine space. What exactly is the design space on old marines? New assault pack options? New tanks? what other new options? GW pruning back this model line would open up plenty of opportunity for new growth for them.
Im not super familiar on RT era models but a tactical Marine is a tactical Marine even if the model got slightly bigger over the years. Old terminators compared to new terminators are still terminators and while they look a bit silly, in gameplay terms they continue to do what they do because they represent the same thing. Primaris are entirely new entries with new rules, gear, and don't really have a lot of equivalency between the two Marine types. The lore of space marines for years has had marines on bikes, using Jump packs, in Terminator armor, using drop pods, riding in metal baw I mean Rhinos, organized into the various flavors of tactical, assault, devastator, scout, and mounted marines plus whatever oddities get mixed in (like centurions, wulfen, etc). Primaris is all new and not looking very backwards comparable which appears to be by design. This process of squatting and replacing the most popular model line in GW's catalog is not the same old thing of just updating sculpts every so soften like they did with Tau Broadsides, DE grots, etc because those entries still exist even if the models doubled in size (I've seen plenty of old grotesques in use and my broadsides are the old Crisis suit upgrades). Entries like Necron Parihas got squatted but they are generally an uncommon occurrence and not the entire product line between compared to what appears to be the systematic (eventually forced) migration from old marines to Primaris.
Forcing an artificial product life on models that you have to invest hundreds of hours to assemble and paint feels extremely anti consumer and a terrible direction for GW to go. If this proves economically viable (numbers seem to point to yes which is not the type of message I want GW to hear) then I have huge concerns that the same could happen for other 40k product lines like Orks, Eldar, Guard, etc. I would think that the risk of forced obsolescence of a product line would get people more vocal about these concerns but it seems like only a vocal minority care.
Gitdakka wrote: Why is this subject so toxic? It allways ends up in two camps saying the other sides models look like gak. Feth you guys! My classic marines will live forever in the emperors holy light and primaris marines can do whatever they like. I don't care for primaris but that does not mean I want their model line discontinued so I can drink the tears of those collectors who enjoy them.
I agree here. I think normal marines are squat little dwarves with angry frowny face masks that tend to look goofy rather than imposing. But I wouldn't want to see that line discontinued if there are still active fans of it.
Yes, nothing wrong with heroic proportions, imitating real proportions exactly doesn't work on a tiny miniature. It is just that this too is something you can do in a better or worse way, and Primaris way is better. I'm an art teacher, don't give me this 'it's just a style' bs.
It's true, technically intercessors are more accurate. But in this case stylized is just stylized. Even if you don't agree, it's clearly been effective enough given how successful the marine line has been for decades now.
Being an art teacher doesn't automatically make you right, and if you are a teacher, I'd expect a better explanation of your position than posting a meme, just saying "it's better" and "I'm a teacher."
In any case, regardless of what you may think, I am absolutely certain that vast majority of people who do not let their bitterness about the Primaris or fear of their old models becoming obsolete (so all the new players,at least) to affect their judgement will see the Primaris as obviously superior product
It's nothing to do with bitterness. I like the Primaris proportions. I don't like their size, nor do I like that they look out of proportion to everything else in the imperial model range, nor that they're all wearing the exact same armor without the personal embellishments and piecemeal part replacement that was standard on regular marines by this point. And don't even get me started on the 47 different types of bolters...
So for me, the balance tips significantly against Primaris without 'bitterness' even entering the equation.
Fully agree with this. The two marine styles don't look good together, imo. I too like the look of the Intercessors but I don't want any in my army because they look weird next to everything else. Right now my army is unified in style, and I'm inclined to keep it that way. If I want Primaris as a unit, I'm inclined to use a specific subset of oldmarines, and I have a collection of current beakies that I might use for just that. We'll see.
They do, however, have to accept that the old line has reached a natural conclusion, is very much bloated and complete, is limited thematically and thus will probably receive no new models in future.
Primaris present fresh opportunities for the studio who are excited to work on new and divergent units (they have said so) and are an opportunity for hobbyists to jump on to a new and exciting model line.
I have a large Primaris collection that was built up since they launched and I couldn't be happier with it. Can't wait for more models to be released!
They do, however, have to accept that the old line has reached a natural conclusion, is very much bloated and complete, is limited thematically and thus will probably receive no new models in future.
Primaris present fresh opportunities for the studio who are excited to work on new and divergent units (they have said so) and are an opportunity for hobbyists to jump on to a new and exciting model line.
I have a large Primaris collection that was built up since they launched and I couldn't be happier with it. Can't wait for more models to be released!
You keep using the word hobby when talking Primaris marines are one of the weakest ranges hobby wise. They have limited options, nearly no customization, the models themselves while well designed are incredibly lacking in personal characteristics and there is little to no kit bashing potential. The characters are all mono poss with no options. Compared to the current level of what I can do with the various plastic marine kits, they are boring.
HoundsofDemos wrote: You keep using the word hobby when talking Primaris marines are one of the weakest ranges hobby wise. They have limited options, nearly no customization, the models themselves while well designed are incredibly lacking in personal characteristics and there is little to no kit bashing potential. The characters are all mono poss with no options. Compared to the current level of what I can do with the various plastic marine kits, they are boring.
Literally everything you typed as a reason to dislike Primaris was true for Normal marines at one point or another. Being able to expand a range gives GW options to sell models.
And that is really the point.
I doubt that GW discontinues the classic marine line soon, but in a number of years they won't be on the shelves, they will be special order. And then in a number more, they will be ebay only.
In any case, regardless of what you may think, I am absolutely certain that vast majority of people who do not let their bitterness about the Primaris or fear of their old models becoming obsolete (so all the new players,at least) to affect their judgement will see the Primaris as obviously superior product
It's nothing to do with bitterness. I like the Primaris proportions. I don't like their size, nor do I like that they look out of proportion to everything else in the imperial model range, nor that they're all wearing the exact same armor without the personal embellishments and piecemeal part replacement that was standard on regular marines by this point. And don't even get me started on the 47 different types of bolters...
So for me, the balance tips significantly against Primaris without 'bitterness' even entering the equation.
Fully agree with this. The two marine styles don't look good together, imo. I too like the look of the Intercessors but I don't want any in my army because they look weird next to everything else. Right now my army is unified in style, and I'm inclined to keep it that way. If I want Primaris as a unit, I'm inclined to use a specific subset of oldmarines, and I have a collection of current beakies that I might use for just that. We'll see.
I know I'm in the minority for thinking this way, but I don't think old marines and Primaris look that strange together. They certainly have more in common with each other than either does with a Scout or a Terminator.
I have an Azrael counts as, a Techmarine, and 3 Company Champions all kit bashed Primaris scale.
Again though, this plays into my point to a degree. I like the models in a vacuum but those are all proxies for regular marine options. Going by what the actual primaris models can take, they essentially don't have options. Compared to all the things a tac squad could take to make it look unique.
I don't think you've grasped the idea that the range and options will grow in future? We've only had one wave of releases. I remember when Marines had one unit and a Dreadnought as the whole line.
I have an Azrael counts as, a Techmarine, and 3 Company Champions all kit bashed Primaris scale.
Again though, this plays into my point to a degree. I like the models in a vacuum but those are all proxies for regular marine options. Going by what the actual primaris models can take, they essentially don't have options. Compared to all the things a tac squad could take to make it look unique.
Ok, but we've only had the first wave of Primaris, there'll be loads more.
Also, all the models I proxies it doesn't really matter whether they're oldscale or Primaris, at least in my mind, because they're all multi attack and multi wound profiles, which is the only mechanical difference really.
I know I'm in the minority for thinking this way, but I don't think old marines and Primaris look that strange together. They certainly have more in common with each other than either does with a Scout or a Terminator.
That's fair. To be honest I can almost see it, just not quite. It's borderline for me.
Scouts I can get behind, as they aren't full-marines yet, and their armor is different. The Terminator kit is wierd to me, as they're clearly a size increase over a normal marine. Like not just the armor, but the guy inside somehow got taller and longer limbed.
Now, If GW is going to continue support for oldmarines, what they could do is to re-release them in couple years with a slight scale increase and a minor proportion shift, just to cover the difference. Primaris are supposed to be bigger, but the standard marine could grow a wee bit and still have all their various parts be compatible. I think it just depends on what they eventually decide to do with standard marines in game. There's definitely precedent for larger "normal" marines, given the scale increase in the new Death Guard and Thousand Sons models.
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Ishagu wrote: I don't think you've grasped the idea that the range and options will grow in future? We've only had one wave of releases. I remember when Marines had one unit and a Dreadnought as the whole line.
Well, compare the traditional Captain kit with all it's options to the current trend of monopose kits with no options. That's a big issue, imo.
Ishagu wrote: I don't think you've grasped the idea that the range and options will grow in future? We've only had one wave of releases. I remember when Marines had one unit and a Dreadnought as the whole line.
So far though everything they indicate that even as more kits come out, a lot of flavor and choices are being pruned. Compare the space marine commander box which had a ton of bitz and customization not only for that model but for your army as a whole. Multiple Melee options and a ton of ranged, a ton of ways to make him look unique. Compare to the Primaris Captain who has what, one option at most? That's what is really being lost.
Ishagu wrote: I don't think you've grasped the idea that the range and options will grow in future? We've only had one wave of releases. I remember when Marines had one unit and a Dreadnought as the whole line.
So far though everything they indicate that even as more kits come out, a lot of flavor and choices are being pruned. Compare the space marine commander box which had a ton of bitz and customization not only for that model but for your army as a whole. Multiple Melee options and a ton of ranged, a ton of ways to make him look unique. Compare to the Primaris Captain who has what, one option at most? That's what is really being lost.
But don't worry, you can get the upgrade pack for $15 to get another power sword, 9 shoulder pads, 3 heads, and a few other bits to really spice up your mini.
Ishagu wrote: I don't think you've grasped the idea that the range and options will grow in future? We've only had one wave of releases. I remember when Marines had one unit and a Dreadnought as the whole line.
So far though everything they indicate that even as more kits come out, a lot of flavor and choices are being pruned. Compare the space marine commander box which had a ton of bitz and customization not only for that model but for your army as a whole. Multiple Melee options and a ton of ranged, a ton of ways to make him look unique. Compare to the Primaris Captain who has what, one option at most? That's what is really being lost.
But don't worry, you can get the upgrade pack for $15 to get another power sword, 9 shoulder pads, 3 heads, and a few other bits to really spice up your mini.
Or all the dozens of heads and pads and swords I have in my bits box that are totally compatible.
I think Primaris being samey and lacking options is perfectly fair criticism. That is certainly their biggest failing at the moment. It is obviously due the model line being so young, but doesn't stop it being an issue at the moment. Then again, I've had a lot of fun with personalising my Primaris with all the bits from my bits box.
It’s certainly taking a long time for the ‘wave 2’ of Primaris models to arrive, 15 months and counting so far.
I do wonder if they had more units ready to go to production, but decided to do a bit of a redesign of the models based on some of the negative feedback on some of the uglier units like the reivers and inceptors.
Ishagu wrote: I don't think you've grasped the idea that the range and options will grow in future? We've only had one wave of releases. I remember when Marines had one unit and a Dreadnought as the whole line.
'They'll get more stuff in the future' is not much of a reason to like the range now...
Phil Kelly is also the guy that writes rather poor and overpowered tau in black library books lol
He is a writer and rules designer, I doubt he knows exactly what the model design guys are doing. I’d take what he has ANECDOTALLY said with a pinch of salt
I wish they had done Reivers in scout armor. I like the concept but the idea of something as heavy as a Marine in full power Armor zipping around like batman seems silly.
I'm with Robbie on this. I like the aesthetic of all the Primaris except the Reivers..they're super "meh"..bordering on ugly. Their dreadnought is also not much of a looker.
Elbows wrote: I'm with Robbie on this. I like the aesthetic of all the Primaris except the Reivers..they're super "meh"..bordering on ugly. Their dreadnought is also not much of a looker.
The Redemptor is one of my favourite kits I've put together in the last year. So much poseability, love it!
The Primaris line was a mistake from the beginning- they shouldn't have engaged in this Primaris idiocy and just upscaled the Space Marine line (which for the umpteenth time they have done before) with all marine units getting 1+ wound and 1+ attack. Complaining would have been minimal, people would have been overjoyed to get truescale models, and GW could even release a "base booster" to bring the old models up to the height of primaris for competitive games.
But instead they made Primaris their "own thing", which is how we get mindboggingly dumb and useless units like Reivers, Aggressors, and to a lesser degree Intercessors which commit the cardinal sin of lacking special weapons (that and just looking awful in the case of Reivers, who in their right mind approved those COD kiddy skull masks and their idiot fluff?) which is what makes marines marines. Their Lt's and HQ's are also a joke because while they have that +1 to wounds and attacks, they still suffer from lack of options. You need a special edition model to even get a power fist, and otherwise their commanders and Lt's are restricted to using some of the most garbage weapons on captains and only useful for mediocre generalization - power swords and master crafted boltguns.
And it also makes me worried that GW isn't going to make Primaris Terminators or Primaris bikers in the future when they inevitably do replace the ranges and frankly, they can feth off.
The Marine line hit a dead end, it was time for a new start.
If you want to alter one unit in the codex for balance you have to update 30 units across 5 codecies.
Their lore was super restrictive also. You'd have to retcon things into the past as they did with Centurions. Also, the Tanks really fell behind in terms of model wow factor when things like Riptides and Wraithknights are on the table. The Rhino chassis vehicles are all ugly, boring boxes. Nostalgic maybe, but certainly boring.
Now with Primaris you have different armours for each unit, a unique tank that sets them apart from more common Imperium armies as it hovers, a big Dreadnought that doesn't look like a midget next to every other walker in every other army. They aren't tied to the past, they aren't tied to a restrictive unit structure, they aren't limited by technological regression in the lore. The sky is the limit.
I don't want upscaled Arartes. We have the begginings of a new range with a fresh start that draws from the best bits of 40k and 30k Astartes. For once we won't get a boring Rhino chassis variant for a future tank, or another squad of 5 guys that are only different because of weapon variation, or some more Terminators. I've already got 10k+ points of that and want no more.
So yes, some collectors whinge and whine non stop, but Primaris are the most exciting release of 8th. Not for what they are now, but for what they might become. If you don't like them stick to the regular line - they won't be going anywhere.
Except it was a lot more than just weapons. One of the main appeals to me for marines was the treasure trove of bitz options. Between all the various kits being compatible, you could really make some unique looking guys especially once they added in the HH plastics. Two people could play marines and have armies that look nothing alike with out even having to do that extensive of conversions. Especially when you factor in forgeworld
Primaris models are so samey. I saw two player playing both using primaris armies and it was a mirror match. Every model has the same options, the same pose, same armor. Sure little timmy doesn't have to worry about putting his models together wrong but they are so dull. Additionally even as a marine player it pisses me off that GW is letting other armies languish while pumping out marines 2.0. Also there only plastic vehicle so far is ugly, is way overboard with guns and it doesn't even have good rules. I'll take a humble rhino or drop pod over that abomination.
Wyzilla wrote: "... Intercessors which commit the cardinal sin of lacking special weapons ... You need a special edition model to even get a power fist ..."
In answer to the first part, they do get the Grenade Launcher. It could be better, but it is only one point. Honestly it doesn't even need to be that much better; +1 AP on their frag grenades, bump their krak grenades to S7, AP 2, D1+1d3 or D3. Or let their Sergeants pay for Melta Bombs like everything else in the bloody book since there's nothing in the rules stopping you from putting the grenade launcher on the Sergeant.
Yes that's only one option, but they only need one option if it's good. Sure a tac squad has dozens of options, but honestly how many of them do you actually use if you're not worried about wysiwyg? (Speaking of which, would it have killed them to put a Power Sword in the Intercessor box? There's a dozen other arms in there, but not one for the one bit of extra wargear the Sergeant has access to?). If the basic Tac Squad box were based on what anyone other than me put on the table around here it would be just a Sergeant with a Stormbolter, a Lascannon guy, and three grunts.
On the second point; that is annoying, but it does present me with the opportunity to do a little kit bashing. I don't care for the Power Fist/Plasma Pistol combo, but converting an Aggressor into a Captain sounds like fun and I don't think I'd ever field the full squad.
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HoundsofDemos wrote: Except it was a lot more than just weapons. One of the main appeals to me for marines was the treasure trove of bitz options
I do miss having all the extra bits left over, but at the same time eventually you wind up with an unruly bucket of parts and no real use for them.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Sure little timmy doesn't have to worry about putting his models together wrong
You haven't built a box of those things have you. The fact that they only fit together one way does NOT make them easy to assemble, if you're not paying attention to the numbers and following the directions the first couple of times it's really easy to wind up with a 3d jigsaw puzzle to sort out.
I'm in the camp that likes the Repentor. Wish it had a gun layout that isn't rubbish and T8 instead of T7, but that can be fixed with a little ink in Chapter Approved. Of course I also like the Centurions and think they fit in with the Primaris line better than the older marines with all the exposed cables and stuff, so obviously I'm a bit weird.
Fully agree with this. The two marine styles don't look good together, imo. I too like the look of the Intercessors but I don't want any in my army because they look weird next to everything else. Right now my army is unified in style, and I'm inclined to keep it that way. If I want Primaris as a unit, I'm inclined to use a specific subset of oldmarines, and I have a collection of current beakies that I might use for just that. We'll see.
I agree with this. I love my oldmarines Salamanders army, and I've got some primaris languishing on the sprue from Dark Imperium and Wake the Dead. I'll get around to building and painting them eventually - probably not soon because they don't particularly excite me - but when I do I'm planning on making them a different chapter entirely, probably one like Lamenters or another "nearly wiped out but primaris reinforced, so they've got history but they're nearly all the new boys nowadays" sort of chapter, while still adding oldmarine reinforcements to the Sallies for as long as I can get them. I can say that they're from before Guilliman woke up to explain the lack of the primaris in the ranks.
Now with Primaris you have different armours for each unit, a unique tank that sets them apart from more common Imperium armies as it hovers, a big Dreadnought that doesn't look like a midget next to every other walker in every other army. They aren't tied to the past, they aren't tied to a restrictive unit structure, they aren't limited by technological regression in the lore. The sky is the limit.
My problem with the unique armour designs is that the further you move away from the standard Mark X armour design (which I agree looks really good), the uglier they get. By the time you get to the vehicles, unique and big they may be, but I find the Repulsor and Redemptor to be ugly as sin. Give me a Land Raider or Leviathan any day. Given that it's clear Primaris are the future, I really hope Phase 2 has some more aesthetically pleasing vehicles in it.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Except it was a lot more than just weapons. One of the main appeals to me for marines was the treasure trove of bitz options. Between all the various kits being compatible, you could really make some unique looking guys especially once they added in the HH plastics. Two people could play marines and have armies that look nothing alike with out even having to do that extensive of conversions. Especially when you factor in forgeworld
Primaris models are so samey. I saw two player playing both using primaris armies and it was a mirror match. Every model has the same options, the same pose, same armor. Sure little timmy doesn't have to worry about putting his models together wrong but they are so dull. Additionally even as a marine player it pisses me off that GW is letting other armies languish while pumping out marines 2.0. Also there only plastic vehicle so far is ugly, is way overboard with guns and it doesn't even have good rules. I'll take a humble rhino or drop pod over that abomination.
This is my main issue with primaris, and it's an issue that as far as I'm aware is a general design shift for their new models. The ability to kitbash, and even have a large variety of poses in a unit is being drastically reduced as they change the way they design the kits from the more modular style of before that allowed things like the marine line where there are literally hundreds of different kits one could use to armour and equip a marine because everything fit with everything. Now the primaris come mostly prebuilt, there isn't that much opportunity for changing the models, stances or armour. Also clamshell, fixed equipment, monopose HQs, but that's a wider issue.
Ishagu wrote:I don't think you've grasped the idea that the range and options will grow in future? We've only had one wave of releases. I remember when Marines had one unit and a Dreadnought as the whole line.
word
I love my redemptor, but I LOVE my contemptor. I love my intercessors, but I LOVE my MKIII Marines. I love kitbashing primaris with regular marines, my heavy hellblasters look great with the forgeworld chapter upgrades and I'm looking forward to doing up some interceptors & reivers.
I wont buy a repulsor since they are the only primaris unit that I actually hate. GW shoulda made something In between the land raider and spartan then a small 5 marine transport (ala no rhino just razorback).
Even though I've expanded primaris wise from darkimp , I've purchased way more classic marines & units than primaris.
As for the models looking terrible on the table, I love running RTB01 beakies next to intercessors. My Salamanders took full advantage of the primaris reinforcements Guiliman brought to Nocturne. I will continue to buy whichever models I like and if gw never makes another classic marine in 10years big deal, I'll still have purchased the classic kits I want will happily buy whichever primaris models I want to
It actually looks really cool in person, and it performs well - although as more codecies have come out it's currently a bit overpriced. I love the fact it flies and you can deploy it behind something then zoom over. The weapons are also very effective, lots of Dakka and anti tank firepower.
Ishagu wrote: The Marine line hit a dead end, it was time for a new start.
If you want to alter one unit in the codex for balance you have to update 30 units across 5 codecies.
Their lore was super restrictive also. You'd have to retcon things into the past as they did with Centurions. Also, the Tanks really fell behind in terms of model wow factor when things like Riptides and Wraithknights are on the table. The Rhino chassis vehicles are all ugly, boring boxes. Nostalgic maybe, but certainly boring.
Now with Primaris you have different armours for each unit, a unique tank that sets them apart from more common Imperium armies as it hovers, a big Dreadnought that doesn't look like a midget next to every other walker in every other army. They aren't tied to the past, they aren't tied to a restrictive unit structure, they aren't limited by technological regression in the lore. The sky is the limit.
I don't want upscaled Arartes. We have the begginings of a new range with a fresh start that draws from the best bits of 40k and 30k Astartes. For once we won't get a boring Rhino chassis variant for a future tank, or another squad of 5 guys that are only different because of weapon variation, or some more Terminators. I've already got 10k+ points of that and want no more.
So yes, some collectors whinge and whine non stop, but Primaris are the most exciting release of 8th. Not for what they are now, but for what they might become. If you don't like them stick to the regular line - they won't be going anywhere.
**edit** corrected multiple typos...
Then go play 30k or play another army instead of demanding and acting as the catalyst for what caused the death of Warhammer Fantasy. When a range is finished it's finished. It doesn't need any new models, and truth is that the Space Marine range should have ceased receiving anything besides updates for existing kits 6+ years ago. We don't need new vehicles, we don't need new units. We have everything that we need, and all GW had to do was just leave it alone instead of getting involved and fething things up. This is emphasized by almost the entire Primaris unit line being summed up as "a whole lot of units I never needed or have a use for". They're the poster boys of unnecessary model lines that serve no role in the game besides bloating it up even further and being mostly inferior to preexisting alternatives.
Not to mention that the entire idea of releasing more and better Primaris stuff down the line is utterly moronic and makes no sense. To paraphrase my English Lit prof, when you write a story, you start with the most interesting point in their life, then either backtrack or move forward to expand upon them. Why the hell would you release a bunch of boring, unnecessary kits for Primaris that have no purpose despite months of GW trying to crowbar them in - instead of just releasing specialized kits for the Big Four with all of their bits and bling that makes the kits worth buying. There's not even a point in laying down $60 bloody USD for a squad of glorified tactical marines which I have to bling up on my own dime so they actually look like their parent Legion. Just jump to the good stuff already and start releasing Primaris Deathwing, Primaris Assault Marines, Primaris Long Fangs, etc instead of these generic units that commit the cardinal sin in 40k of being utterly boring. What makes the Horus Heresy a decent game with interesting features is the number of options for the specialist options, not basic bolter squads running about which serve no purpose than to plug into a FOC so you can get the units that are actually fun to use. Which aren't even Primaris right now because they exclusively come in cookie cutter sets with no variety and adaptability.
This is the god damn Adeptus Astartes for the love of god, not Eldar Aspects. What the hell is GW even thinking with trying to cram boring and restrictive loadouts into the army that is supposed to be "Your Dudes" above all others, that made Space Marines among the most popular armies in the first place?
Problem was they were stuck in a loop of focussing all their attention and resources into Marines and quickly reached the point where they had done it all for them but were unwilling to spend any time or effort on any other range as the marines were the best seller - hence the loop.
They then resorted to massively flandersing a few chosen (Wolfy, Blood, Dark) Chapters as well as making up new units such as Centurions and Flyers which were all IMO horrible models.
Finally they decided that the bloat was so huge that only a entirely new range of Marines could keep them selling Marines to those who already have vast amounts of Marines and also draw attention of new players with better sculpts. Just Making just new Primaris versions of old Marines would not have worked ads many older players would just keep using the old ones and say there are Primaris.
Consequently we are still in the messy transition period and still in the MUST MAKE MORE MARINES loop.
yes they will replace them in the fluff and eventually the tabletop but it will be a long long time.
I basically agree with the meat of what you say, but I wanted to take a bit of issue with this.
You say this like it's a problem, but honestly marines (loyal or chaos) have ALWAYS been the core of this game. It's what 40k is built on, what the lore is primarily focused on, and are the hook on which everything else in the setting hangs. Marines need to be the focus ultimately. The 'loop' is what the business relies on.
People sometimes say that if they put as much focus on a Xenos faction as they do on Marines that they would be just as popular, but I really think that's a fallacy. Marines are conceptually inherently more appealing to a larger proportion of gamers than any other faction. In pretty much every game, including ones where factions are more equally represented, the 'heroic humans' are more popular than other options.
Here's WoW racial distribution as a case in point.
It actually looks really cool in person, and it performs well - although as more codecies have come out it's currently a bit overpriced. I love the fact it flies and you can deploy it behind something then zoom over. The weapons are also very effective, lots of Dakka and anti tank firepower.
Bring on Chapter Approved!
I saw one nice looking custom made Custode's land raider on my flag. It was done from repulsor kit and maker has put land raider sponsons etc to it. I would say it was much more good looking than basic land raiders or repulsors. I almost wanted to do same to Deathwing.
Stux wrote: In pretty much every game, including ones where factions are more equally represented, the 'heroic humans' are more popular than other options.
Here's WoW racial distribution as a case in point.
Woah, a whooping 16% of players play humans! A whole 0.3% above Blood Elves too!
Guess that means we must focus on humans over every other species. Let's leave the trolls with models from WoW vanilla with no upgrade so we can make more upgrades to the human models. I mean, that's definitely not going to impact negatively the human players too when they see their trol-playing friend with very old models that don't fit in with the rest of the game!
You totally convinced me that releasing Primaris was better than releasing new Eldar aspect warriors.
I basically agree with the meat of what you say, but I wanted to take a bit of issue with this.
You say this like it's a problem, but honestly marines (loyal or chaos) have ALWAYS been the core of this game. It's what 40k is built on, what the lore is primarily focused on, and are the hook on which everything else in the setting hangs. Marines need to be the focus ultimately. The 'loop' is what the business relies on.
People sometimes say that if they put as much focus on a Xenos faction as they do on Marines that they would be just as popular, but I really think that's a fallacy. Marines are conceptually inherently more appealing to a larger proportion of gamers than any other faction. In pretty much every game, including ones where factions are more equally represented, the 'heroic humans' are more popular than other options.
Here's WoW racial distribution as a case in point.
WoW has a lot of the "rear view" factor going on when your going around grinding out levels. Your stuck looking at the backside of a character for hours so a lot of people prefer to have a more attractive race than some homely looking git. Also for the alliance it could be said that the choices in races skews the picks towards human and Nelf because a decent number of people don't really find Dwarves or Gnomes to be all that appealing visually or as a power fantasy. Note on the Horde side the massive amount of Blood Elves (the pretty Horde race) compared to the relatively close distribution of Orcs, Undead, Trolls, and Tauren which are all have a cool factor but not really a hotness factor. Another thing to remember is that for PVP, racial abilities where king and humans had one of the best racials on the Alliance side where as on Horde it was less clear cut with Undead, Blood Elves, and Orcs having some decent racials. Not saying your theory about people gravitating towards the human option is wrong, its just that there are a few other factors that muddy the waters a bit more than just "I want to power fantasy as a human".
Also people rightfully dislike pandas (who greenlit that idiotic idea?) but all them gitz need to recognize the superiority of gobbos
I basically agree with the meat of what you say, but I wanted to take a bit of issue with this.
You say this like it's a problem, but honestly marines (loyal or chaos) have ALWAYS been the core of this game. It's what 40k is built on, what the lore is primarily focused on, and are the hook on which everything else in the setting hangs. Marines need to be the focus ultimately. The 'loop' is what the business relies on.
People sometimes say that if they put as much focus on a Xenos faction as they do on Marines that they would be just as popular, but I really think that's a fallacy. Marines are conceptually inherently more appealing to a larger proportion of gamers than any other faction. In pretty much every game, including ones where factions are more equally represented, the 'heroic humans' are more popular than other options.
Here's WoW racial distribution as a case in point.
WoW has a lot of the "rear view" factor going on when your going around grinding out levels. Your stuck looking at the backside of a character for hours so a lot of people prefer to have a more attractive race than some homely looking git. Also for the alliance it could be said that the choices in races skews the picks towards human and Nelf because a decent number of people don't really find Dwarves or Gnomes to be all that appealing visually or as a power fantasy. Note on the Horde side the massive amount of Blood Elves (the pretty Horde race) compared to the relatively close distribution of Orcs, Undead, Trolls, and Tauren which are all have a cool factor but not really a hotness factor. Another thing to remember is that for PVP, racial abilities where king and humans had one of the best racials on the Alliance side where as on Horde it was less clear cut with Undead, Blood Elves, and Orcs having some decent racials. Not saying your theory about people gravitating towards the human option is wrong, its just that there are a few other factors that muddy the waters a bit more than just "I want to power fantasy as a human".
Also people rightfully dislike pandas (who greenlit that idiotic idea?) but all them gitz need to recognize the superiority of gobbos
Ok, but I think you'll find this skew in pretty much every game. More people want to play as the faction they can identify with than other races. Certainly when picking their first faction. It's human nature.
It actually looks really cool in person, and it performs well - although as more codecies have come out it's currently a bit overpriced. I love the fact it flies and you can deploy it behind something then zoom over. The weapons are also very effective, lots of Dakka and anti tank firepower.
Bring on Chapter Approved!
Like most Primaris stuff, it looks better when not painted in GW's "toyetic blue" UM scheme.
Ishagu wrote: The Marine line hit a dead end, it was time for a new start.
If you want to alter one unit in the codex for balance you have to update 30 units across 5 codecies.
Their lore was super restrictive also. You'd have to retcon things into the past as they did with Centurions. Also, the Tanks really fell behind in terms of model wow factor when things like Riptides and Wraithknights are on the table. The Rhino chassis vehicles are all ugly, boring boxes. Nostalgic maybe, but certainly boring.
Now with Primaris you have different armours for each unit, a unique tank that sets them apart from more common Imperium armies as it hovers, a big Dreadnought that doesn't look like a midget next to every other walker in every other army. They aren't tied to the past, they aren't tied to a restrictive unit structure, they aren't limited by technological regression in the lore. The sky is the limit.
But for me, this is the problem. Appeal of the Imperium setting is that it is an empire in decline, with increasingly limited technological resources. Most of the really powerful weapons are irreplaceable relics, religiously revered and maintained. In this, Imperium is contrasted by Tau, who are more of a staple scifi faction, with technological development in upswing and Eldar, who are in decline just like Imperium, but have superior technology represented by flying vehicles and bikes etc. Against them, Imperium had its own archaic technology which perhaps isn't always as sophisticated but it was robust and proven.
But now, Primaris Marines bring all those themes for Imperial setting. Flying tanks, new experimental weapons etc. Now Imperium is just like the Eldar and Tau. Uniqueness of the setting is gone. It's just bunch of scifi cliche factions fighting it out with technological one-upmanship.
I figure this is the moment in the story before the hero stumbles.
Marine power armor has always run counter to the setting. Every mark is better than the last, because no one wants to buy toys less cool than the last one they bought.
Ishagu wrote: The Marine line hit a dead end, it was time for a new start.
If you want to alter one unit in the codex for balance you have to update 30 units across 5 codecies.
Their lore was super restrictive also. You'd have to retcon things into the past as they did with Centurions. Also, the Tanks really fell behind in terms of model wow factor when things like Riptides and Wraithknights are on the table. The Rhino chassis vehicles are all ugly, boring boxes. Nostalgic maybe, but certainly boring.
Now with Primaris you have different armours for each unit, a unique tank that sets them apart from more common Imperium armies as it hovers, a big Dreadnought that doesn't look like a midget next to every other walker in every other army. They aren't tied to the past, they aren't tied to a restrictive unit structure, they aren't limited by technological regression in the lore. The sky is the limit.
But for me, this is the problem. Appeal of the Imperium setting is that it is an empire in decline, with increasingly limited technological resources. Most of the really powerful weapons are irreplaceable relics, religiously revered and maintained. In this, Imperium is contrasted by Tau, who are more of a staple scifi faction, with technological development in upswing and Eldar, who are in decline just like Imperium, but have superior technology represented by flying vehicles and bikes etc. Against them, Imperium had its own archaic technology which perhaps isn't always as sophisticated but it was robust and proven.
But now, Primaris Marines bring all those themes for Imperial setting. Flying tanks, new experimental weapons etc. Now Imperium is just like the Eldar and Tau. Uniqueness of the setting is gone. It's just bunch of scifi cliche factions fighting it out with technological one-upmanship.
It's boring.
The Imperium is still an empire in decline (especially now that half of it is cut off from the rest), the Primarus are just the latest patch of duct tape to try and hold it together. 10,000 years ago they would have turned the tied and united the Imperium, but in the modern setting they're stuck putting out thousands of little fires while being unable to deal with the bigger issues.
And why do people seem to selectively forget that the Marines have always been a source of innovation in an otherwise stagnant Imperium? The Razorback was an adaptation of the Immolator STC, and even then it was only approved to have Heavy Bolters but the Marines stuck a bunch of other things on it to support their combat squads (if you can't have more bodies, might as well bring more bullets). Likewise the Land Raider got a few updates because of the needs of the moment too. Heck, even MkVIII power armour was an advancement in the materials and techniques being used as it was being rolled out. Let's not even get into the fact that MkV only exists because Marines kept sticking extra armour on their armour with bonding studs to combat the traitor's guns.
Marines adapt, improvise and then overcome. It's a staple of the setting and as long as the Guard isn't rolling around in hover tanks and shooting magic pixie cannons the Imperium is still just as boned (if not more boned) as it was before.
Kelligula wrote: As much as I like Redemptors, I haven't bothered using them since the Armigers came out. Yeah Yeah I know. I'm that guy.
Personally I don't blame you. The armiger is all around better than the redemptor. Which is a Marine Codex problem in general. There's always something better to use...
It actually looks really cool in person, and it performs well - although as more codecies have come out it's currently a bit overpriced. I love the fact it flies and you can deploy it behind something then zoom over. The weapons are also very effective, lots of Dakka and anti tank firepower.
Bring on Chapter Approved!
Yeah man totally agree. Thing has a lot of potential and I use it still because it's honestly the best thing we got.
It actually looks really cool in person, and it performs well - although as more codecies have come out it's currently a bit overpriced. I love the fact it flies and you can deploy it behind something then zoom over. The weapons are also very effective, lots of Dakka and anti tank firepower.
Bring on Chapter Approved!
Like most Primaris stuff, it looks better when not painted in GW's "toyetic blue" UM scheme.
Kelligula wrote: As much as I like Redemptors, I haven't bothered using them since the Armigers came out. Yeah Yeah I know. I'm that guy.
Personally I don't blame you. The armiger is all around better than the redemptor. Which is a Marine Codex problem in general. There's always something better to use...
Humm less see -
+6 move stat
5++ save
-1 W
Better guns.
Costs less by 30 points
Move and shoot no problem
Stratagem support.
I mean...Redemptor fist is nice but it's not that nice.
Backfire wrote: But for me, this is the problem. Appeal of the Imperium setting is that it is an empire in decline, with increasingly limited technological resources. Most of the really powerful weapons are irreplaceable relics, religiously revered and maintained. In this, Imperium is contrasted by Tau, who are more of a staple scifi faction, with technological development in upswing and Eldar, who are in decline just like Imperium, but have superior technology represented by flying vehicles and bikes etc. Against them, Imperium had its own archaic technology which perhaps isn't always as sophisticated but it was robust and proven.
But now, Primaris Marines bring all those themes for Imperial setting. Flying tanks, new experimental weapons etc. Now Imperium is just like the Eldar and Tau. Uniqueness of the setting is gone. It's just bunch of scifi cliche factions fighting it out with technological one-upmanship.
It's boring.
I agree 100%
ClockworkZion wrote: The Imperium is still an empire in decline (especially now that half of it is cut off from the rest), the Primarus are just the latest patch of duct tape to try and hold it together.
But absolutely dehumanizing horrible things like, say, the whole DKoK is supposed to be the duct tape. Not “Harder better faster stronger” marines that were made by someone who understood the fundamental principle behind both the gene-engineering AND the technical engineering to significantly improve on both. And somehow it didn't even result in even more inhuman marines, or more disturbing transformation process. That's anti-40k, anti-grimdark as hell.
ClockworkZion wrote: And why do people seem to selectively forget that the Marines have always been a source of innovation in an otherwise stagnant Imperium?
Because “take chassis A and put weapon B on it” doesn't sound like it requires a deep understanding a deep understanding of the way the chassis work, and because those part of the fluff were usually extremely lame and just there to explain why only chapter snowflake got snowflake version of tank with same chassis different weapons loadout. Lazy minimal effort from GW.
ClockworkZion wrote: The Razorback was an adaptation of the Immolator STC, and even then it was only approved to have Heavy Bolters but the Marines stuck a bunch of other things on it to support their combat squads (if you can't have more bodies, might as well bring more bullets).
“A variant of the Predator Battle Tank designed to carry troops is believed to be the first precursor to the modern Razorback. However, the STC template for the Razorback was first rediscovered in M36 by Chief Artisan Tilvius while he was exploring the Southern Rim of the galaxy. When he returned to Mars, the Adeptus Mechanicus recognized it from earlier records and commenced work on its production. Within two hundred years the first Razorbacks were field-tested and began seeing service to the Adeptus Astartes soon after.” http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Razorback#History Just finding the STC and using it, no relation to Immolator, no innovation.
ClockworkZion wrote: Heck, even MkVIII power armour was an advancement in the materials and techniques being used as it was being rolled out.
And yet artificer armor or relic armor was older and better.
ClockworkZion wrote: The Imperium is still an empire in decline (especially now that half of it is cut off from the rest), the Primarus are just the latest patch of duct tape to try and hold it together.
But absolutely dehumanizing horrible things like, say, the whole DKoK is supposed to be the duct tape. Not “Harder better faster stronger” marines that were made by someone who understood the fundamental principle behind both the gene-engineering AND the technical engineering to significantly improve on both. And somehow it didn't even result in even more inhuman marines, or more disturbing transformation process. That's anti-40k, anti-grimdark as hell.
Marines are the store brand duct tape, the Guard are the store brand version.
And how do you know the Primaris didn't lose something? Have you asked Captain Felix of the Ultramarines of what he lost leaving the Imperium as it was rebuilding only to wake up in the nightmare of the modern setting? How about the iterrations of testing it took Cawl to make his Furnace implant without causing out of control tumor growth instead? What about the issues that likely came getting the Godmaker to work in a Marine's body that wasn't designed for it? Hell, the coils are the least dangerous part of the whole process since the Imperium is pretty good at doing those sorts of upgrades for the Mechanicum, and that involves wrapping your tendons and ligaments in some kind of wired up implant to increase contraction force. I can promise the new implantation process likely fails even more than the old one did just because of two of those implants being pretty dangerous for someone whose bodies can't adapt.
But sure, "no problems" and "less grimdark". Unless we get a second human Renaissance I'm calling BS. The Imperium is fighting a losing battle, Guilliman has to declare the Indomitus Crusade a "victory" just to give the Imperium something to hold onto and while it was all circling the drain before, someone broke the sink so now it's all going to hell even FASTER. At this point the Primaris are just another strap of duct tape trying to slow the leaking (as are the Custodes, as is Guilliman, as is EVERYTHING).
ClockworkZion wrote: And why do people seem to selectively forget that the Marines have always been a source of innovation in an otherwise stagnant Imperium?
Because “take chassis A and put weapon B on it” doesn't sound like it requires a deep understanding a deep understanding of the way the chassis work, and because those part of the fluff were usually extremely lame and just there to explain why only chapter snowflake got snowflake version of tank with same chassis different weapons loadout. Lazy minimal effort from GW.
In a setting that requires chanting, incense, sacred unguents and a ceremony likely an hour (or more) long just to start a Rhino, I'm calling BS about the idea that it doesn't take "deep understanding". The average Imperial Citizen is barely literate, and to learn how to change the oil on a tank a Techmarine has to go through secret training on Mars. There is more involved than "slap a new gun on it" despite how easy it is to model.
ClockworkZion wrote: Heck, even MkVIII power armour was an advancement in the materials and techniques being used as it was being rolled out.
And yet artificer armor or relic armor was older and better.
Hundreds of years of careful retooling and reworking versus a factory fresh suit of armour makes quite a bit of difference. Hell the love and care that artificer armour gets is on par with that Terminator armour gets. Of course it works better, it's been through a dozen skilled artisan's hands and likely assembled from the best parts of multiple suits of power armour.
We getting the foundation for this laid out before our eyes. Reasonable, rational leadership, political unity and scientific advances, things that were the opposite of 40k was about, are coming around.
ClockworkZion wrote: In a setting that requires chanting, incense, sacred unguents and a ceremony likely an hour (or more) long just to start a Rhino, I'm calling BS about the idea that it doesn't take "deep understanding".
But that's the point! Just changing the weapons is considered “incredibly advanced manipulation”. And then Cawl comes by and suddenly incredibly more complex task because perfectly feasible. Not once. Not twice. But, like, dozens of time at least? It's not just one thing that was imrproved, it's all the weapons and all the armors and all the vehicles and…!
All this new gear being invented doesn't fit well with a setting that requires chanting, incense, sacred unguents and a ceremony to start a rhino.
ClockworkZion wrote: Hundreds of years of careful retooling and reworking versus a factory fresh suit of armour makes quite a bit of difference.
Yeah, 40k was never about having factory fresh suits of armor, except maybe for the very bad equipment. Now it is.
Even for the Imperial Guard, the Vostroyan got better equipment because it was older and more artisanal.
The problem you guys are having is the setting has always been a random collection of contradictory ideas. If you look at the setting in the clear light of day, it doesn't really work all that well. So both of you are right and both of you are wrong.
Crimson Devil wrote: The problem you guys are having is the setting has always been a random collection of contradictory ideas. If you look at the setting in the clear light of day, it doesn't really work all that well. So both of you are right and both of you are wrong.
I agree with this.
That's the problem with GW introducing ANYTHING new. 40k is interpreted differently by different people, who use different aspects of the contradictory narrative as the foundation for their personal interpretation of what is important to to the setting. So whatever GW does, some people get pissed off. They literally cannot win. But they have to do something new anyway, so a few pissed off people will have to either put up with it or move on.
But that's the point! Just changing the weapons is considered “incredibly advanced manipulation”. And then Cawl comes by and suddenly incredibly more complex task because perfectly feasible. Not once. Not twice. But, like, dozens of time at least? It's not just one thing that was imrproved, it's all the weapons and all the armors and all the vehicles and…!
All this new gear being invented doesn't fit well with a setting that requires chanting, incense, sacred unguents and a ceremony to start a rhino.
No it is considered tech heresy. The only way to get a new gun on something or a change to a gun design, is to either find a ancient golden era patern so that the mechanics can say that rhino chasis and demolisher cannons were ment to be slaped in to one thing all along, or pay a bribe so unimaginably high that the fabricator of Mars okeys it.
Cawl is a tech heretic and should be shot on sight by anyone who is member of the adeptus mechanicus and the church, and if those organisation go hand in hand it more or less anyone should be shoting him on sight.
I mean just imagine it. Durning the heresy the God emperor gave an short time order to move all land raiders in to space marine detachments. Kicked the bucket, before he could change it and no one, but marines can drive them. There are merchant houses in w40k, that have mind blowing rights given on the basis of a one page document, even the lords of terra can't over turn, because it has the blood drop signature of big E. And some of it is brutal stuff, a guy who owned a towing ship got the rights to tow stuff in a sector where there was 2 outposts and a listening station. Fast forward 10k years, and the guys family has the sole right to tow ships in a sector with multiple hives and a forge world.
I completely agree that Primaris fluff is terrible. But it is nothing compared to a Primarch returning. Gathering Storm basically ruined the setting, and that is unfortunate. But I'm not going to let that to get in the way of me enjoying beautiful models. To me Primaris marines are just better looking marines, and I don't gonna fuss about the details, marines already had a grav tank in the Rogue Trader, they can have them again.
Oh, and look at these Inceptors from the Rogue Trader:
Galas wrote: I like Primaris Marines. But I also like terminators, bikers, etc...
So in my armies I mix primaris infantry and special units with space marine bikers, terminators and scouts.
As long as you don't mix intercessors with Tacticals it all looks good.
Yeah, visually I don't really have a problem with running Primaris alongside Terminators. I have a problem with the viability of Terminators, but that's a different issue!
If they did and it's just not mentioned in the fluff then the fluff is still bad because it should be written about and emphasized.
Because the horrible things that go on in universe need to be explicitly stated everytime? I mean I didn't see anything about Cawl's "upgrade" being any easier on the recipient, nor did I read anything that said it was effortless for him, so why assume that is somehow turning the game into Brighthammer?
We getting the foundation for this laid out before our eyes. Reasonable, rational leadership, political unity and scientific advances, things that were the opposite of 40k was about, are coming around.
So a character who is known for being reasonable and rational (to a fault) in 30k returns and it's a detriment that he's still reasonable and rational in the face of an irrational universe? Not to mention that Guilliman has a number of irrational points too: Dark Imperium has him denying that the Warp pulls at him when he's in the midst of being teleported, he refuses to admit that his soul was injured by Fulgrim's blade and his whole near death experience came about from him walking into a trap while knowing it was a trap.
Political unity is supposed to be a thing in 40k (where you can get the Exterminatus for failing to tithe properly) but even a Primarch can't instantly fix things. Again, in Dark Imperium, which is set at the end of the Indomitus Crusade, Guilliman is still trying to reuinite the 500 worlds of Ultramar. If he can't fix his own backyard, what chance the Imperium as a whole has actually been set straight already? No chance at all. So the Imperium is still as corrupt as ever, and some are only paying lip service to Guilliman, much like they only paid lip service to the High Lords.
Said "Scientific Advances" are based on 10,000 years of innovation by one of the few people who could possibly be justified to know enough to actually pull it off in setting (especially if it's paired with 10,000 years of him continuing to absorb the knowledge of other magi like he did to his traitor mentor during the HH).
Basically I'm saying, your points are gross overstatements that seek to only look at a single green leaf on a dying tree.
ClockworkZion wrote: In a setting that requires chanting, incense, sacred unguents and a ceremony likely an hour (or more) long just to start a Rhino, I'm calling BS about the idea that it doesn't take "deep understanding".
But that's the point! Just changing the weapons is considered “incredibly advanced manipulation”. And then Cawl comes by and suddenly incredibly more complex task because perfectly feasible. Not once. Not twice. But, like, dozens of time at least? It's not just one thing that was imrproved, it's all the weapons and all the armors and all the vehicles and…!
All this new gear being invented doesn't fit well with a setting that requires chanting, incense, sacred unguents and a ceremony to start a rhino.
Cawl has had TEN THOUSAND YEARS to get his projects right, and has been building this arsenal up for likely at least half of that. It's not like he's a character barely a hundred years old who pulled this off, he's one of the last parts of a dead age of enlightenment. And even then he's already not responsible for every advancement for the Primaris (their new Super Heavy from FW is from a recovered STC that the Minotaurs found) and now that Cawl is spending his time trying to learn how to make Blackstone Pylons he's not likely to be responsible for all the advancements going forward either.
ClockworkZion wrote: Hundreds of years of careful retooling and reworking versus a factory fresh suit of armour makes quite a bit of difference.
Yeah, 40k was never about having factory fresh suits of armor, except maybe for the very bad equipment. Now it is.
Even for the Imperial Guard, the Vostroyan got better equipment because it was older and more artisanal.
MkVIII was factory fresh armour. Heck, plenty of MkVII suits were still pretty new when the 13th Black Crusade happened. Both of those were improvements over what came before. Marine armour marks have ALWAYS about been improving something from what came before, even if the change ultimately did little to truly improve how protective it was. Longer power supply life, quieter movement, the ability to turn your head...even if they weren't massive leaps forward to us, they were innovations built on years of study of STC tech, and the application of new STC tech as it arose.
And considering that the HH showed us human sized power armour being aimed at the Luna Wolves in the first book, I'm going to say it: mot of MkX is likely just larger power armour with some innovations nicked from previous marks in an effort to take the best points of several iterations. It's not new as much as it is building on every mark that came before it to make something that is the culmination of the best designs available. Heck, you can even look at Gravis armour as a cross of a Centurion and a Terminator in concept, and likely some of the tech is similar too.
ClockworkZion wrote: So a character who is known for being reasonable and rational (to a fault) in 30k returns and it's a detriment that he's still reasonable and rational in the face of an irrational universe?
Yes! It is not that it doesn't make sense, it is that it changes the narrative: bringing him back was a colossal mistake. There is no need for reason or rationality in 40K!
"Reason begets doubt; Doubt begets heresy."
"Reason is the cloak of Traitors."
"A logical argument must be dismissed with absolute conviction!"
"Enlightenment is a myth we do not need to understand in order to hate."
"Facts are chains that bind perception and fetter truth. For a man can remake the world if he has a dream and no facts to cloud his mind."
ClockworkZion wrote: So a character who is known for being reasonable and rational (to a fault) in 30k returns and it's a detriment that he's still reasonable and rational in the face of an irrational universe?
Yes! It is not that it doesn't make sense, it is that it changes the narrative: bringing him back was a colossal mistake. There is no need for reason or rationality in 40K!
"Reason begets doubt; Doubt begets heresy."
"Reason is the cloak of Traitors."
"A logical argument must be dismissed with absolute conviction!"
"Enlightenment is a myth we do not need to understand in order to hate."
"Facts are chains that bind perception and fetter truth. For a man can remake the world if he has a dream and no facts to cloud his mind."
I'd argue that letting the Daemon Primarchs come back (who honestly shouldn't have been gone for as long as they were all things considered) warrants enough of a reason to bring some of the loyalists back too. The Imperium is supposed to be a sinking ship, not a sunk one (unless we went full End Times and went Bubblehammer 40k like everyone claimed we'd be doing during Gathering Storm), so giving the Imperium something to lean on was needed narratively. Guilliman was the only one that the Imperium knows were he is, and even had a narrative chip that could be played as the faithful that visited him swore his wound was somehow healing despite him being locked in status (power of faith being what it is, it could have been healing the physical wound, but it took Yvrainne to heal his soul enough to let him not just die anyways).
Plus we need to remember the 40k universe runs on dramatic tension, so basically we need the scales to stay roughly balanced to maintain that tension.
I don't know if you guys use it, but I downloaded the Citadel painting app and there are no regular marines on it. They are all Primaris. Now, GW could be doing this to promote them, but I reckon we'll be seeing more and more Primaris model options show up and a gradual phasing of the regular marine models.
No. Daemon Primarchs have always existed in the fluff, they're not new. Imperium didn't need anything to balance them, they already control the most of the galaxy while the Chaos hides in the Eye of Terror like scared wussies.
Crimson wrote: No. Daemon Primarchs have always existed in the fluff, they're not new. Imperium didn't need anything to balance them, they already control the most of the galaxy while the Chaos hides in the Eye of Terror like scared wussies.
They always existed in the fluff but they weren't impacting the game at the level they should have been. Heck, most of them just sat around with their daemonically mutated thumb up their daemonically mutated butt.
And while the Imperium "controls" most of the galaxy it's largely in name only. Outside of paying tithes most planets are largely ignored, there are more war fronts than ever now and generally speaking not only is it going to hell in a handbasket, now the basket is on fire too.
Point was that making the Daemon Primarchs the threats to the galaxy they should have been swung things narratively too far into Chaos' favor, and to balance that back out we needed someone on the Imperium's side to balance it out. I get that not everyone likes the changes, or how they were implimented, or wants to say everything should have stayed the same, but honestly I dig every change so far (though Yvrainne needs a debuff pretty soon because she's a literal walking Deus Ex Machina and kills dramatic tension every time she shows up now), and while I don't agree with every detail the overall direction is a good one in my book.
But I guess that's because I approach the game from a direction that lets me accept the idea that things change more than others. Or something. I don't know. I was painting an Abominant until nearly midnight and got up after around 5 hours of sleep this morning.
Chaos having Primarchs while the Imperium does not would have allowed Chaos to feel like a threat for once. Inquisitors and marine heroes desperately trying to counter these ancient daemonic monstrosities would have allowed some of that same cool feel that FB Empire vs. Chaos had. There the Empire was clearly the underdog which persisted nevertheless, which made them really cool.
Crimson wrote: Chaos having Primarchs while the Imperium does not would have allowed Chaos to feel like a threat for once. Inquisitors and marine heroes desperately trying to counter these ancient daemonic monstrosities would have allowed some of that same cool feel that FB Empire vs. Chaos had. There the Empire was clearly the underdog which persisted nevertheless, which made them really cool.
Chaos being allowed to have victories outside of the Black Library already makes them more of a threat. Bringing back literal daemonically supercharged demigods on the Chaos side made the Imperium little more than a joke in terms of how it was supposed to resist that in the slightest.
Primaris are clearly destined to replace the existing tactical marine line. Its a malevolent strategy of GW to extract another round of profit from the large number of SM players
One should never buy Primaris, because you are encouraging GW to start invalidating other model ranges.
'First they came for space marines, and I did not speak out-
Because I did not collect space marines
Then they came for Tau, and I did not speak out-
Because I did not collect Tau
Then they came for Tyranids, and I did not speak out-
Because I did not collect Tyranids
Then they came for Eldar- and there was no one left to speak for me'
Mordian2016 wrote: Primaris are clearly destined to replace the existing tactical marine line. Its a malevolent strategy of GW to extract another round of profit from the large number of SM players
One should never buy Primaris, because you are encouraging GW to start invalidating other model ranges.
'First they came for the space marines, and I did not speak out-
Because I did not collect space marines
Then they came for the Tau, and I did not speak out-
I thought you were serious when you were claiming malevolence (which really isn't a GW policy since Kirby got the boot), but the post clearly has devolved into trolling. Regular Marines can still be "count as" Primaris in the future, while there are model lines that were invalidated and don't have the ability to be played normally anymore (Squats, Bretonnians, Tomb Kings, everyone's special character conversions from RT through 5th before GW started killing all the special characters who didn't have their own models, some of which had unique wargear you can't get normally).
Mordian2016 wrote: Primaris are clearly destined to replace the existing tactical marine line. Its a malevolent strategy of GW to extract another round of profit from the large number of SM players
One should never buy Primaris, because you are encouraging GW to start invalidating other model ranges.
So I must assume thst your marine army is entirely composed of the Rogue Trader beakies, as you certainly would not have complied this malevolent strategy in all those previous times.
Mordian2016 wrote: Primaris are clearly destined to replace the existing tactical marine line. Its a malevolent strategy of GW to extract another round of profit from the large number of SM players
One should never buy Primaris, because you are encouraging GW to start invalidating other model ranges.
'First they came for the space marines, and I did not speak out-
Because I did not collect space marines
Then they came for the Tau, and I did not speak out-
I thought you were serious when you were claiming malevolence (which really isn't a GW policy since Kirby got the boot), but the post clearly has devolved into trolling. Regular Marines can still be "count as" Primaris in the future, while there are model lines that were invalidated and don't have the ability to be played normally anymore (Squats, Bretonnians, Tomb Kings, everyone's special character conversions from RT through 5th before GW started killing all the special characters who didn't have their own models, some of which had unique wargear you can't get normally).
You are just providing more evidence that GW has a track record of invalidating entire armies and model ranges, with no redress for customers
Mordian2016 wrote: Primaris are clearly destined to replace the existing tactical marine line. Its a malevolent strategy of GW to extract another round of profit from the large number of SM players
One should never buy Primaris, because you are encouraging GW to start invalidating other model ranges.
'First they came for space marines, and I did not speak out-
Because I did not collect space marines
Then they came for Tau, and I did not speak out-
Because I did not collect Tau
Then they came for Tyranids, and I did not speak out-
Because I did not collect Tyranids
Then they came for Eldar- and there was no one left to speak for me'
Which is why saying "these are new, distinct units with different stats and rules existing alongside normal-size Marines" was the error. If they'd said "this is a resculpt of Tactical Marines, and any new kits in older armour are going to exist under the Heresy label" new players and people who think they're cooler-looking would have made a beeline for them and the players who didn't like them would have been able to grumble about kids these days but still use their ancient beakie Marines and benefit from the new statline, as-is they've got people who do like Primaris annoyed that they don't work well as a complete army and the players who don't like Primaris paranoid that their collections are going to be Squatted.
Mordian2016 wrote: Primaris are clearly destined to replace the existing tactical marine line. Its a malevolent strategy of GW to extract another round of profit from the large number of SM players
One should never buy Primaris, because you are encouraging GW to start invalidating other model ranges.
'First they came for space marines, and I did not speak out-
Because I did not collect space marines
Then they came for Tau, and I did not speak out-
Because I did not collect Tau
Then they came for Tyranids, and I did not speak out-
Because I did not collect Tyranids
Then they came for Eldar- and there was no one left to speak for me'
Which is why saying "these are new, distinct units with different stats and rules existing alongside normal-size Marines" was the error. If they'd said "this is a resculpt of Tactical Marines, and any new kits in older armour are going to exist under the Heresy label" new players and people who think they're cooler-looking would have made a beeline for them and the players who didn't like them would have been able to grumble about kids these days but still use their ancient beakie Marines and benefit from the new statline, as-is they've got people who do like Primaris annoyed that they don't work well as a complete army and the players who don't like Primaris paranoid that their collections are going to be Squatted.
You are spot on. Couldn't agree more
To add further, the hammy Mary Sue fluff of the Primaris back story, shows it is all an exercise in maximising profit extraction rather than a creative endeavour
Mordian2016 wrote: Primaris are clearly destined to replace the existing tactical marine line. Its a malevolent strategy of GW to extract another round of profit from the large number of SM players
One should never buy Primaris, because you are encouraging GW to start invalidating other model ranges.
'First they came for space marines, and I did not speak out-
Because I did not collect space marines
Then they came for Tau, and I did not speak out-
Because I did not collect Tau
Then they came for Tyranids, and I did not speak out-
Because I did not collect Tyranids
Then they came for Eldar- and there was no one left to speak for me'
Wow. Really? Of all the completely incorrect analogies you chose that one... ohhh ofc it's "a joke" if called on it, but seriously... have some fething sense of taste, dude.
Mordian2016 wrote: Primaris are clearly destined to replace the existing tactical marine line. Its a malevolent strategy of GW to extract another round of profit from the large number of SM players
One should never buy Primaris, because you are encouraging GW to start invalidating other model ranges.
'First they came for the space marines, and I did not speak out-
Because I did not collect space marines
Then they came for the Tau, and I did not speak out-
I thought you were serious when you were claiming malevolence (which really isn't a GW policy since Kirby got the boot), but the post clearly has devolved into trolling. Regular Marines can still be "count as" Primaris in the future, while there are model lines that were invalidated and don't have the ability to be played normally anymore (Squats, Bretonnians, Tomb Kings, everyone's special character conversions from RT through 5th before GW started killing all the special characters who didn't have their own models, some of which had unique wargear you can't get normally).
You are just providing more evidence that GW has a track record of invalidating entire armies and model ranges, with no redress for customers
I was more pointing out that there were better examples to use to make your claim with than Primaris who are at least compatible with existing Marine models acting as proxies versus actual options that were removed and never given a counterpart they could proxy as.
KTG17 wrote: I don't know if you guys use it, but I downloaded the Citadel painting app and there are no regular marines on it. They are all Primaris. Now, GW could be doing this to promote them, but I reckon we'll be seeing more and more Primaris model options show up and a gradual phasing of the regular marine models.
You need to look harder mate, there are several regular marine units on it.
Yes! It is not that it doesn't make sense, it is that it changes the narrative: bringing him back was a colossal mistake. There is no need for reason or rationality in 40K!
Yes there is. You add a character that stands for reason and rationality, who serves as a beacon of light. You want him so that you can tear him and everything he stands for down to better remind everybody there's no hope in a galaxy consumed by fear, war, and hatred.
Ever since Guilliman returned, he has had a target on his back.
KTG17 wrote: I don't know if you guys use it, but I downloaded the Citadel painting app and there are no regular marines on it. They are all Primaris. Now, GW could be doing this to promote them, but I reckon we'll be seeing more and more Primaris model options show up and a gradual phasing of the regular marine models.
You need to look harder mate, there are several regular marine units on it.
No, he's right. Unless by 'several', you mean four: Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, Deathwing, and Ravenwing. Of the 14 Space Marine models listed in the "Paint by Miniature section", 10 are Intercessors.
I think it's probably because their bigger size and better proportions gives you a much better idea how the scheme looks on infantry rather than a hidden message saying "feth the squatties".
I'm confused, when did continuing product support become a life time requirement?
I get that it sucks when you army is not valid in the current edition, but it's still playable in the edition you bought it for. My Bretonnians are still perfectly playable in 6th Warhammer Fantasy Battles.
I think it's probably because their bigger size and better proportions gives you a much better idea how the scheme looks on infantry rather than a hidden message saying "feth the squatties".
And TBH Primaris are a lot more fun to paint than classic marines.
Crimson Devil wrote: I'm confused, when did continuing product support become a life time requirement?
I get that it sucks when you army is not valid in the current edition, but it's still playable in the edition you bought it for. My Bretonnians are still perfectly playable in 6th Warhammer Fantasy Battles.
Not only that, we aren't anywhere CLOSE to marines becoming Brets at this point. Hell, the best marine units at a high end competitive level have no Primaris equivalent whatsoever.
I think it's probably because their bigger size and better proportions gives you a much better idea how the scheme looks on infantry rather than a hidden message saying "feth the squatties".
And TBH Primaris are a lot more fun to paint than classic marines.
I absolutely agree. I like the look of Primaris marines. I think they're great models and they're a ton of fun to paint.
I also can't think of a clean way to shift the marine identity towards the Legion concept without relying on new units.
Crimson wrote: Chaos having Primarchs while the Imperium does not would have allowed Chaos to feel like a threat for once. Inquisitors and marine heroes desperately trying to counter these ancient daemonic monstrosities would have allowed some of that same cool feel that FB Empire vs. Chaos had. There the Empire was clearly the underdog which persisted nevertheless, which made them really cool.
Chaos being allowed to have victories outside of the Black Library already makes them more of a threat. Bringing back literal daemonically supercharged demigods on the Chaos side made the Imperium little more than a joke in terms of how it was supposed to resist that in the slightest.
How was the Imperium supposed to resist?
Absolute tyranny. Religious fanaticism. Brainwashing. A scorched earth policy even against their own populations. Barely understood psychic abilities heralding the cusp of a dangerous human evolution. Un-understood technologies and the most resource-gobbling leviathan of a military in the history of the galaxy. With the occasional dash of usually-witless heroism.
KTG17 wrote: I don't know if you guys use it, but I downloaded the Citadel painting app and there are no regular marines on it. They are all Primaris. Now, GW could be doing this to promote them, but I reckon we'll be seeing more and more Primaris model options show up and a gradual phasing of the regular marine models.
You need to look harder mate, there are several regular marine units on it.
No, he's right. Unless by 'several', you mean four: Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, Deathwing, and Ravenwing. Of the 14 Space Marine models listed in the "Paint by Miniature section", 10 are Intercessors.
No he is wrong. He said there are no regular marines on it, there are regular marines on it, therefore he is wrong. There is also 5 of them; you missed the Grey Knight Paladin
Five is enough to meet the dictionary definition of several I am sure
I think its because GW is giving Primaris the hard sell, and because they are probably easier for newer modellers to paint, due to their large size.
Oh no - does that mean that only Forge World will continue to churn out endless slightly different Marines and GW won;t constantly clog the release schedule with both Primairs and Old Marines?
Wow First World Problems.
What New Marine modles do we actually need eh?
I have hundreds - so what retcon crap do people suddenly want to see - e have suffered Centurions and toy flyers
GW have never bothered to expand the other Chapters - including the other First Founding so unless you want more Wolves on Wolves firing Wolfly guns then I cant see the issue.
Crimson wrote: Chaos having Primarchs while the Imperium does not would have allowed Chaos to feel like a threat for once. Inquisitors and marine heroes desperately trying to counter these ancient daemonic monstrosities would have allowed some of that same cool feel that FB Empire vs. Chaos had. There the Empire was clearly the underdog which persisted nevertheless, which made them really cool.
Chaos being allowed to have victories outside of the Black Library already makes them more of a threat. Bringing back literal daemonically supercharged demigods on the Chaos side made the Imperium little more than a joke in terms of how it was supposed to resist that in the slightest.
How was the Imperium supposed to resist?
Absolute tyranny. Religious fanaticism. Brainwashing. A scorched earth policy even against their own populations. Barely understood psychic abilities heralding the cusp of a dangerous human evolution. Un-understood technologies and the most resource-gobbling leviathan of a military in the history of the galaxy. With the occasional dash of usually-witless heroism.
Now slap in a beacon of hope to latch onto and who can't even protect Ultramar (Nurgle dropped a plague on the region that only calmed down in the presence of Guilliman, but he couldn't sit around tending the sick because the hellhole that is the Imperium would only end up dying even faster) much less the Imperium while he's weighed down with the lives of quintillions and no practical means to save them.
Mr Morden wrote: Oh no - does that mean that only Forge World will continue to churn out endless slightly different Marines and GW won;t constantly clog the release schedule with both Primairs and Old Marines?
Wow First World Problems.
What New Marine modles do we actually need eh?
I have hundreds - so what retcon crap do people suddenly want to see - e have suffered Centurions and toy flyers
GW have never bothered to expand the other Chapters - including the other First Founding so unless you want more Wolves on Wolves firing Wolfly guns then I cant see the issue.
Most of us who don't like primaris really didn't want any new models, at least for a while. The marine line was fleshed out enough, I really wish GW would give some love to the older xenos and chaos ranges and update those kits.
It’s just like the edition change, or WFB changing into AoS, or anything else that changes. What can be gained by complaining or expressing displeasure as nauseum? Is it therapeutic in some way to repeatedly tell the Internet, “I don’t like this?”
Not suggesting everyone has to like everything, because that is extremely unrealistic. I just have never been able to see the point in dwelling on disappointment in a game of toy soldiers. For months, even years. Why not just focus on the aspects one enjoys?
Mr Morden wrote: Oh no - does that mean that only Forge World will continue to churn out endless slightly different Marines and GW won;t constantly clog the release schedule with both Primairs and Old Marines?
Wow First World Problems.
What New Marine modles do we actually need eh?
I have hundreds - so what retcon crap do people suddenly want to see - e have suffered Centurions and toy flyers
GW have never bothered to expand the other Chapters - including the other First Founding so unless you want more Wolves on Wolves firing Wolfly guns then I cant see the issue.
Most of us who don't like primaris really didn't want any new models, at least for a while. The marine line was fleshed out enough, I really wish GW would give some love to the older xenos and chaos ranges and update those kits.
While I agree other ranges need fleshing out (and I need models for a Magus, a Primus, and a Patriarch in blister pack form already GW!) I don't think GW should ignore keeping their flagship line moving either. Marines make the most money and almost every player owns at least one Marine army, so keeping that train going only makes sense and it doesn't prevent us from getting new Xenos stuff (Tooth and Claw with new GSC stuff, new Ork Speedwaaaaaaaaagh stuff, a new Spirit Seer in plastic this time). I see more updates coming to armies after all the codexes drop and GW can slow the release train down a little.
Mr Morden wrote: Oh no - does that mean that only Forge World will continue to churn out endless slightly different Marines and GW won;t constantly clog the release schedule with both Primairs and Old Marines?
Wow First World Problems.
What New Marine modles do we actually need eh?
I have hundreds - so what retcon crap do people suddenly want to see - e have suffered Centurions and toy flyers
GW have never bothered to expand the other Chapters - including the other First Founding so unless you want more Wolves on Wolves firing Wolfly guns then I cant see the issue.
Most of us who don't like primaris really didn't want any new models, at least for a while. The marine line was fleshed out enough, I really wish GW would give some love to the older xenos and chaos ranges and update those kits.
While I agree other ranges need fleshing out (and I need models for a Magus, a Primus, and a Patriarch in blister pack form already GW!) I don't think GW should ignore keeping their flagship line moving either. Marines make the most money and almost every player owns at least one Marine army, so keeping that train going only makes sense and it doesn't prevent us from getting new Xenos stuff (Tooth and Claw with new GSC stuff, new Ork Speedwaaaaaaaaagh stuff, a new Spirit Seer in plastic this time). I see more updates coming to armies after all the codexes drop and GW can slow the release train down a little.
Soo what Marine models are needed presuming they won't go beyond the snowflake Chapters? We have loads of marines coming out all the time from FW.
What non Primaris models are beign called out for by Marine players?
Crimson wrote: Chaos having Primarchs while the Imperium does not would have allowed Chaos to feel like a threat for once. Inquisitors and marine heroes desperately trying to counter these ancient daemonic monstrosities would have allowed some of that same cool feel that FB Empire vs. Chaos had. There the Empire was clearly the underdog which persisted nevertheless, which made them really cool.
Chaos being allowed to have victories outside of the Black Library already makes them more of a threat. Bringing back literal daemonically supercharged demigods on the Chaos side made the Imperium little more than a joke in terms of how it was supposed to resist that in the slightest.
How was the Imperium supposed to resist?
Absolute tyranny. Religious fanaticism. Brainwashing. A scorched earth policy even against their own populations. Barely understood psychic abilities heralding the cusp of a dangerous human evolution. Un-understood technologies and the most resource-gobbling leviathan of a military in the history of the galaxy. With the occasional dash of usually-witless heroism.
Now slap in a beacon of hope to latch onto and who can't even protect Ultramar (Nurgle dropped a plague on the region that only calmed down in the presence of Guilliman, but he couldn't sit around tending the sick because the hellhole that is the Imperium would only end up dying even faster) much less the Imperium while he's weighed down with the lives of quintillions and no practical means to save them.
Setting was better without him being back, imo. Too much of a locus. I liked it better when the villains were immortal, but the heroes were not. As heroic as a Chapter Master is, they pass on eventually, and a player could make up his/her own.
Mr Morden wrote: Oh no - does that mean that only Forge World will continue to churn out endless slightly different Marines and GW won;t constantly clog the release schedule with both Primairs and Old Marines?
Wow First World Problems.
What New Marine modles do we actually need eh?
I have hundreds - so what retcon crap do people suddenly want to see - e have suffered Centurions and toy flyers
GW have never bothered to expand the other Chapters - including the other First Founding so unless you want more Wolves on Wolves firing Wolfly guns then I cant see the issue.
Most of us who don't like primaris really didn't want any new models, at least for a while. The marine line was fleshed out enough, I really wish GW would give some love to the older xenos and chaos ranges and update those kits.
While I agree other ranges need fleshing out (and I need models for a Magus, a Primus, and a Patriarch in blister pack form already GW!) I don't think GW should ignore keeping their flagship line moving either. Marines make the most money and almost every player owns at least one Marine army, so keeping that train going only makes sense and it doesn't prevent us from getting new Xenos stuff (Tooth and Claw with new GSC stuff, new Ork Speedwaaaaaaaaagh stuff, a new Spirit Seer in plastic this time). I see more updates coming to armies after all the codexes drop and GW can slow the release train down a little.
Soo what Marine models are needed presuming they won't go beyond the snowflake Chapters? We have loads of marines coming out all the time from FW.
What non Primaris models are beign called out for by Marine players?
Primaris need a transport and a lighter support tank if we're going to be honest (Grav Rhino and Predator would be neat after all). Most generic stuff fits most chapters after all.
However, my point was less that releasing stuff for Marines doesn't mean we can't have things for other factions because we're getting things for other factions too.
Crimson wrote: Chaos having Primarchs while the Imperium does not would have allowed Chaos to feel like a threat for once. Inquisitors and marine heroes desperately trying to counter these ancient daemonic monstrosities would have allowed some of that same cool feel that FB Empire vs. Chaos had. There the Empire was clearly the underdog which persisted nevertheless, which made them really cool.
Chaos being allowed to have victories outside of the Black Library already makes them more of a threat. Bringing back literal daemonically supercharged demigods on the Chaos side made the Imperium little more than a joke in terms of how it was supposed to resist that in the slightest.
How was the Imperium supposed to resist?
Absolute tyranny. Religious fanaticism. Brainwashing. A scorched earth policy even against their own populations. Barely understood psychic abilities heralding the cusp of a dangerous human evolution. Un-understood technologies and the most resource-gobbling leviathan of a military in the history of the galaxy. With the occasional dash of usually-witless heroism.
Now slap in a beacon of hope to latch onto and who can't even protect Ultramar (Nurgle dropped a plague on the region that only calmed down in the presence of Guilliman, but he couldn't sit around tending the sick because the hellhole that is the Imperium would only end up dying even faster) much less the Imperium while he's weighed down with the lives of quintillions and no practical means to save them.
Setting was better without him being back, imo. Too much of a locus. I liked it better when the villains were immortal, but the heroes were not. As heroic as a Chapter Master is, they pass on eventually, and a player could make up his/her own.
Except the dead seem to never leave the game anyways (looking at you Tycho, and you Uriah Jacobus) and being a named character in this setting (at least if you're in a rulebook and not just the EU stuff from the BL or other things) is a ticket to stick around for a long time, even if you "should" be dead.
Crimson wrote: Chaos having Primarchs while the Imperium does not would have allowed Chaos to feel like a threat for once. Inquisitors and marine heroes desperately trying to counter these ancient daemonic monstrosities would have allowed some of that same cool feel that FB Empire vs. Chaos had. There the Empire was clearly the underdog which persisted nevertheless, which made them really cool.
Chaos being allowed to have victories outside of the Black Library already makes them more of a threat. Bringing back literal daemonically supercharged demigods on the Chaos side made the Imperium little more than a joke in terms of how it was supposed to resist that in the slightest.
How was the Imperium supposed to resist?
Absolute tyranny. Religious fanaticism. Brainwashing. A scorched earth policy even against their own populations. Barely understood psychic abilities heralding the cusp of a dangerous human evolution. Un-understood technologies and the most resource-gobbling leviathan of a military in the history of the galaxy. With the occasional dash of usually-witless heroism.
Now slap in a beacon of hope to latch onto and who can't even protect Ultramar (Nurgle dropped a plague on the region that only calmed down in the presence of Guilliman, but he couldn't sit around tending the sick because the hellhole that is the Imperium would only end up dying even faster) much less the Imperium while he's weighed down with the lives of quintillions and no practical means to save them.
Setting was better without him being back, imo. Too much of a locus. I liked it better when the villains were immortal, but the heroes were not. As heroic as a Chapter Master is, they pass on eventually, and a player could make up his/her own.
Except the dead seem to never leave the game anyways (looking at you Tycho, and you Uriah Jacobus) and being a named character in this setting (at least if you're in a rulebook and not just the EU stuff from the BL or other things) is a ticket to stick around for a long time, even if you "should" be dead.
Even if they're included in the books, there's arguably more gravitas if they can actually die.
Also, the characters that get rules tend to be (not suprisingly) the ones with a model. But some have been retired for sure. Captain Invictus of the Ultramarines. Captain Cortez of the Crimson Fists. Lord Commander Solar Macharius of the Guard.
Crimson wrote: Chaos having Primarchs while the Imperium does not would have allowed Chaos to feel like a threat for once. Inquisitors and marine heroes desperately trying to counter these ancient daemonic monstrosities would have allowed some of that same cool feel that FB Empire vs. Chaos had. There the Empire was clearly the underdog which persisted nevertheless, which made them really cool.
Chaos being allowed to have victories outside of the Black Library already makes them more of a threat. Bringing back literal daemonically supercharged demigods on the Chaos side made the Imperium little more than a joke in terms of how it was supposed to resist that in the slightest.
How was the Imperium supposed to resist?
Absolute tyranny. Religious fanaticism. Brainwashing. A scorched earth policy even against their own populations. Barely understood psychic abilities heralding the cusp of a dangerous human evolution. Un-understood technologies and the most resource-gobbling leviathan of a military in the history of the galaxy. With the occasional dash of usually-witless heroism.
Now slap in a beacon of hope to latch onto and who can't even protect Ultramar (Nurgle dropped a plague on the region that only calmed down in the presence of Guilliman, but he couldn't sit around tending the sick because the hellhole that is the Imperium would only end up dying even faster) much less the Imperium while he's weighed down with the lives of quintillions and no practical means to save them.
Setting was better without him being back, imo. Too much of a locus. I liked it better when the villains were immortal, but the heroes were not. As heroic as a Chapter Master is, they pass on eventually, and a player could make up his/her own.
Except the dead seem to never leave the game anyways (looking at you Tycho, and you Uriah Jacobus) and being a named character in this setting (at least if you're in a rulebook and not just the EU stuff from the BL or other things) is a ticket to stick around for a long time, even if you "should" be dead.
Even if they're included in the books, there's arguably more gravitas if they can actually die.
Also, the characters that get rules tend to be (not suprisingly) the ones with a model. But some have been retired for sure. Captain Invictus of the Ultramarines. Captain Cortez of the Crimson Fists. Lord Commander Solar Macharius of the Guard.
True, but the point more is that being dead doesn't really stop much for the game itself. Arguably we should have access to Primarchs because of the Scouring or becuase of the Beast Arises campaign settings but we can't even get that.
Look, at the end of the dead I get you want people to "stay dead", but 40k doesn't care about your logic. Someone who dies today might get time displaced out of the warp tomorrow and be forced to pick up where he left off when he died. And that's not even going into Primarchs who haven't died (Guilliman was crashing when put into Stasis but ~9,000+ years of faithful worship and belief he was healing could have done wonders for making it less lethal than it could have been). Plus we have a slew of "missing" Primarchs to tap into that aren't dead.
True, but the point more is that being dead doesn't really stop much for the game itself. Arguably we should have access to Primarchs because of the Scouring or becuase of the Beast Arises campaign settings but we can't even get that.
Look, at the end of the dead I get you want people to "stay dead", but 40k doesn't care about your logic. Someone who dies today might get time displaced out of the warp tomorrow and be forced to pick up where he left off when he died. And that's not even going into Primarchs who haven't died (Guilliman was crashing when put into Stasis but ~9,000+ years of faithful worship and belief he was healing could have done wonders for making it less lethal than it could have been). Plus we have a slew of "missing" Primarchs to tap into that aren't dead.
Gulliman was "revived" by Eldar Death God Warp Heresy. Poor writing can cure any wound
True, but the point more is that being dead doesn't really stop much for the game itself. Arguably we should have access to Primarchs because of the Scouring or becuase of the Beast Arises campaign settings but we can't even get that.
Look, at the end of the dead I get you want people to "stay dead", but 40k doesn't care about your logic. Someone who dies today might get time displaced out of the warp tomorrow and be forced to pick up where he left off when he died. And that's not even going into Primarchs who haven't died (Guilliman was crashing when put into Stasis but ~9,000+ years of faithful worship and belief he was healing could have done wonders for making it less lethal than it could have been). Plus we have a slew of "missing" Primarchs to tap into that aren't dead.
Gulliman was "revived" by Eldar Death God Warp Heresy. Poor writing can cure any wound
His soul was poisoned. No amount of Ad Mech incense can cure that.
Crimson wrote: Gathering Storm basically ruined the setting, and that is unfortunate.
I wouldn't say it ruined the setting, but it was definitely a "Jumped the Shark" moment. 40K went from a tale of the slow, eventual downfall and destruction of mankind to a hopeful age of heroes fighting against the darkness.
Primaris don't bother me. Returning Primarchs and other GW characters do. Personally, I like 40K being about my dudes, my armies, not GW's superhero collection.
I was kinda the opposite at first. I was ok with gathering storm though I thought it was a little to hopeful and didn't do enough for Chaos.
But Bobby G being back could have been written really well with him having significant problems even as a Primarch getting the absolute mess of an administration that the modern Imperium is to combat the worst case scenario . Then marines 2.0 came out, chaos hasn't felt like much of a real threat and we get a time skip that glosses over what would have been some of the most interesting time after his resurrection.
Game wise though I agree 100 %. I started back in 5th when troops mattered and big stompy stuff was mostly an apoc thing. The games has become incredibly lethal to anything but the hardest of models, which has largely turned me off from tournament play. I remember fondly when killing a tank took effort.
I wouldn't say it ruined the setting, but it was definitely a "Jumped the Shark" moment. 40K went from a tale of the slow, eventual downfall and destruction of mankind to a hopeful age of heroes fighting against the darkness.
Well, that is pretty much 'setting ruined' for me...
Primaris don't bother me. Returning Primarchs and other GW characters do. Personally, I like 40K being about my dudes, my armies, not GW's superhero collection.
And yeah, I absolutely agree.
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Crimson Devil wrote: The fact the Primarchs were missing and not dead, always implied their return. Russ himself guaranteed his return.
It was just a legend and should have stayed so. I'm not expecting King Arthur to return any time soon either, even if Britain is in grave peril due the Brexit...
I still don't understand how GW having their own narrative about their select characters stops anyone from having their own about Their Dudes.
Is it any different from decades before with GW's named characters doing their thing, with places like Armageddon and Cadia? The only difference as I see it is that these characters are bigger, generally more powerful and have more important roles within the wider galaxy (but then even someone like Calgar, Abaddon, or Aun'va alone was incredibly powerful in influence), but I don't understand how that fundamentally shifts the setting so much that you still can't play with Your Dudes.
Indeed. Even with all the focus on these powerful named characters, at the moment I don't have a single named character mini in my collection. I'm not opposed to getting them and may well pick up a couple at some point, but whenever I'm buying models or looking to write lists I nearly always prefer the generic HQ.
Crimson wrote: Gathering Storm basically ruined the setting, and that is unfortunate.
I wouldn't say it ruined the setting, but it was definitely a "Jumped the Shark" moment. 40K went from a tale of the slow, eventual downfall and destruction of mankind to a hopeful age of heroes fighting against the darkness.
Primaris don't bother me. Returning Primarchs and other GW characters do. Personally, I like 40K being about my dudes, my armies, not GW's superhero collection.
But the ongoing crap (IMO) writing thats been poluting the Space Wolf story for years was ok?
If you have actually read the fluff - the Imperium is in a worse state, RG is a near broken man fighting to preserve a nightmare he helped create - if anythng its more grim dark.
The Roman empire "fell", but the eastern portion reformed, and lasted another 1000 years. When you have territory to surrender, turnarounds are possible. All they really need is to get back to scientific theory and execute the inquisition wholesale.
Crimson wrote: Gathering Storm basically ruined the setting, and that is unfortunate.
I wouldn't say it ruined the setting, but it was definitely a "Jumped the Shark" moment. 40K went from a tale of the slow, eventual downfall and destruction of mankind to a hopeful age of heroes fighting against the darkness.
Primaris don't bother me. Returning Primarchs and other GW characters do. Personally, I like 40K being about my dudes, my armies, not GW's superhero collection.
But the ongoing crap (IMO) writing thats been poluting the Space Wolf story for years was ok?
If you have actually read the fluff - the Imperium is in a worse state, RG is a near broken man fighting to preserve a nightmare he helped create - if anythng its more grim dark.
Rule #1: no one who complains about the lore actually reads the lore.
I'm mostly joking, but it has been a thing that I've noticed over the years: the biggest complaints about lore are usually based on "the memes".
The biggest problem GW has, and is inherent in a setting tied to physical models, is GW can only do so much to really change the setting with out alienating a large portion of it's fan base. This leads to a lot of the recent fluff coming off as telling not showing.
Cadia blew up and what really changed on the table top. The Imperium got a demi god back and super duper marines. The Imperium got super duper knights and mini ones to go along with it. They got hover tanks and Custodes all over the place.
This to me is the biggest problem actually finding the setting advancing meaning anything. There is a ton of fluff that things are worse than ever but it isn't really reflected well in the table top, the release schedule and Primaris marines don't help.
We have the wolves and Blood Angels nearly wiped out and then boom JK, we have a ton of new better marines. GW says there is a struggle but it doesn't feel like anything really changed.
The knights were "always there" (much like Genestealer Cults), they just didn't have models or rules. You can't really call them "new" to the setting, even if they're new to the players.
Custodes always existed and were let out of their box because the Imperium is that boned and really the only things really "new" are the Primaris (who have 10,000 years of work behind their release into the galaxy).
ClockworkZion wrote: The knights were "always there" (much like Genestealer Cults), they just didn't have models or rules. You can't really call them "new" to the setting, even if they're new to the players.
Custodes always existed and were let out of their box
Right. Just like the Daemon Primarchs. So the Imperium gained a Primarch and super marines while Chaos gained nothing.
ClockworkZion wrote: The knights were "always there" (much like Genestealer Cults), they just didn't have models or rules. You can't really call them "new" to the setting, even if they're new to the players.
Custodes always existed and were let out of their box
Right. Just like the Daemon Primarchs. So the Imperium gained a Primarch and super marines while Chaos gained nothing.
Chaos gained nothing that would be new to them, but they have gained a fair amount of stuff we never knew about or didn't have a build up for (Plague Burst Crawler, Blighthaulers, the various Death Guard HQ characters, Tzaangors, Mutalith Vortex Beast, the Thousand Sons new guns). They didn't gain new stuff as far as the characters would be concerned in setting, but to the players a lot of new stuff has come out for Chaos, and we have a strong hint that more can be coming.
Whether they existed in the background ins't my point. GW under minds it's own fluff due to it's own inherent inherent interest in making money ( as any business should). They keep putting forward fluff that says the IOM is allegedly worse off than before but it's not reflected well due to GW being to cautious, due to not wanted to alienate existing players. They can't/ won't kill of a major chapter, most of the named characters, etc.
They moved the setting forward but nothing really changed. Hell even the in the Gathering Storm series which should have been Chaos's big moment, they got no models, no rules and were treated almost as an afterthought after book 1. I'm a Marine player through and through but I find it increasingly frustrating that GW is both now treating the setting like a story but not actually changing anything. I would have preferred them to have fleshed out 30k to 40k and given all the other factions some more love than continue to produce models for a line that was complete and already sold well.
Also if you want to call Guilliman "new" then Magnus and Mortation are equally "new" since they didn't have options for 40k play before.
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HoundsofDemos wrote: Whether they existed in the background ins't my point. GW under minds it's own fluff due to it's own inherent inherent interest in making money ( as any business should). They keep putting forward fluff that says the IOM is allegedly worse off than before but it's not reflected well due to GW being to cautious, due to not wanted to alienate existing players. They can't/ won't kill of a major chapter, most of the named characters, etc.
They moved the setting forward but nothing really changed. Hell even the in the Gathering Storm series which should have been Chaos's big moment, they got no models, no rules and were treated almost as an afterthought after book 1. I'm a Marine player through and through but I find it increasingly frustrating that GW is both now treating the setting like a story but not actually changing anything. I would have preferred them to have fleshed out 30k to 40k and given all the other factions some more love than continue to produce models for a line that was complete and already sold well.
You're kidding right? GW has and will kill off named characters. They just don't take them away from being playable on the table nearly as often as they kill them (as long as they have a model of course).
And while we can point out over and over that there is the evidence the Imperium really is worse despite getting more stuff for you to put on the table, or the setting gaining Primaris (the Indomitus Crusade wasn't truly won, Guilliman had to give it the "Mission Complete" treatment to make the Imperium have hope that they COULD win), I've yet to see in setting evidence that the Imperium is actually better with Guilliman back or Primaris running around. I hear a lot of hyperbole and memes but not canon proof of said "better Imperium" people claim exists.
Chaos gained nothing that would be new to them, but they have gained a fair amount of stuff we never knew about or didn't have a build up for (Plague Burst Crawler, Blighthaulers, the various Death Guard HQ characters, Tzaangors, Mutalith Vortex Beast, the Thousand Sons new guns). They didn't gain new stuff as far as the characters would be concerned in setting, but to the players a lot of new stuff has come out for Chaos, and we have a strong hint that more can be coming.
But I was talking about the setting, not the game.
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