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I'll tell you what bothers me most about Primaris marines; everything about them is better than OldStartes except their grenades, and better grenades to go with the launcher would address the one real issue with not having heavy weapons options for them. It's so frustratingly close to being right.

If they got Missile Launcher ammo instead of the regular Frag and Krak grenades I'd have no complaints about Intercessors at all.

Again GW is basically setting the stage to kill off old marines and it's surprising to me that very few people seem to care about that. Hard to believe that people with thousands of dolllars of pre 8th edition marines would be happy to have their army's models, fluff, and all that invested money/time invalidated because GW wanted to market truescale marines as an outright replacement. The problem with this is that without major push back it's going to make it marketable to do the same for all the other 40k armies in a similar way they have been doing in AoS.

 Vankraken wrote:
Again GW is basically setting the stage to kill off old marines and it's surprising to me that very few people seem to care about that. Hard to believe that people with thousands of dolllars of pre 8th edition marines would be happy to have their army's models, fluff, and all that invested money/time invalidated because GW wanted to market truescale marines as an outright replacement. The problem with this is that without major push back it's going to make it marketable to do the same for all the other 40k armies in a similar way they have been doing in AoS.

Eh, I shelved my painstakingly converted marine army I've been building since 4th edition in favour of the Primaris, just like I shelved my 2nd edition Dark Angels army before that. New models come, they often look better than the older ones and stuff gets replaced. It's nothing new, not many people have armies composed of RT beakies any more these day.

 insaniak wrote:

The generic chaplain that was released with the librarian is also still available.

Do you mean the one that had the integrated base and was later put into a box of 3(the Captain with Combi-Grav, Librarian with Cherub, and him)?

He's not available anymore that I can find. Wasn't available outside of the box of 3 and a Razorback bundle with a Command Squad either.

 Ishagu wrote:
The Primaris will be more fleshed out in future and the model range will grow, allowing for multiple builds and list variations.

Once that happens, I see no reason for people to stay so loyal to the old Astartes line whilst bashing the Primaris as the models do look better and more imposing on the tabletop.

The current issues with limited models and customisation are only temporary. If you look at the Stormcast it's easy to see how much a range can grow and develop.

I'll be loyal to my army because it's what I've build, painted and played for years. While I'm probably in the minority GW will never get a dollar from me for any Primaris kits because the fluff for them is beyond boring and while the models look good, the last thing the game needed was marines 1.5. That combined with Primaris being Marines dumbed down, both model and option wise has me fairly pessimistic on th hobby. While I'm happy GW is finally being active again, it's increasing hostility to conversions and kit bashing is troubling.

 Vankraken wrote:
Again GW is basically setting the stage to kill off old marines and it's surprising to me that very few people seem to care about that. Hard to believe that people with thousands of dolllars of pre 8th edition marines would be happy to have their army's models, fluff, and all that invested money/time invalidated because GW wanted to market truescale marines as an outright replacement. The problem with this is that without major push back it's going to make it marketable to do the same for all the other 40k armies in a similar way they have been doing in AoS.

So you're telling us that you have never retired old models over time as your skills and models get better? I've been playing Marines since 3rd edition and I have only one model from my original army.

 Vankraken wrote:
Again GW is basically setting the stage to kill off old marines and it's surprising to me that very few people seem to care about that. Hard to believe that people with thousands of dolllars of pre 8th edition marines would be happy to have their army's models, fluff, and all that invested money/time invalidated because GW wanted to market truescale marines as an outright replacement. The problem with this is that without major push back it's going to make it marketable to do the same for all the other 40k armies in a similar way they have been doing in AoS.

Few people care about it!?!?

You could see for miles from the mountain of salt I've seen over Primaris!

 Stormonu wrote:

 Togusa wrote:


Why do you think they won't make any more flyers?

Stormcloud Attack - they were attempting to dump what stale stock they had. Death From the Skies - one of their poorer selling books. If flyers were "hot", we would be seeing more such units appear for the game and more stratagems based around incorporating them; they seem to have a poor fit in 8th overall and I would not be surprised if a few years down the road the models quietly slipped away and were replaced with "strafing run/bombing run/grav chute deployment" sort of stratagems that didn't require the model to be present. Heck, even drop pods seem to be in a bit of a slump this edition.

There were a ton of flyers at LVO this past year. They might have wanted to turn down their stock, but I don't believe flyers are going anywhere. In fact, aren't Primaris supposed to be getting a big flyer, something called the Overlord?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vankraken wrote:
Again GW is basically setting the stage to kill off old marines and it's surprising to me that very few people seem to care about that. Hard to believe that people with thousands of dolllars of pre 8th edition marines would be happy to have their army's models, fluff, and all that invested money/time invalidated because GW wanted to market truescale marines as an outright replacement. The problem with this is that without major push back it's going to make it marketable to do the same for all the other 40k armies in a similar way they have been doing in AoS.

To date I've put in over 2000$ into marines. And yep, I do not care. Primaris look way better. Plus, nothing will stop me from using what I have. I can always play with the current edition, go back to 7th, or run the indexes. They may not make anymore midget models, but nothing says you must stop playing with them as soon as primaris take over.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Newman wrote:
I'll tell you what bothers me most about Primaris marines; everything about them is better than OldStartes except their grenades, and better grenades to go with the launcher would address the one real issue with not having heavy weapons options for them. It's so frustratingly close to being right.

If they got Missile Launcher ammo instead of the regular Frag and Krak grenades I'd have no complaints about Intercessors at all.

Actually that would be cool. Imagine if their GL changed to something like the following.

GL <choose profile>

Frag Grenade Assault d6 S4 AP- DMG1
Krak Grenade Assault 1 S6 AP-1 DMG 2
EMP Grenade Assault 1 S- AP-1 DMG D3 (Wound of 6+ causes 1 mortal wound to vehicles)
Incendiary Grenade Assault D3 S4 AP-2 DMG 1
Flash Grenade Assault 1 S3 AP- DMG 1 (When a unit suffers an unsaved wound, they get -1 to hit and to save for the remainder of the turn.)


All these toolbox functions would be great!

 Crimson wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


After looking at the reference I still don't see it coming.

I have some nice Bretonnian models I'd like to sell to you. They'll be getting a new armybook real soon!

A few responses to illustrate my interpretation of the matter:

A: I'm pretty sure the former CEO lost his job in relation to the treatment of Warhammer Fantasy, among other things.

B: I have RTB01s that I can still use today, as Space Marines are the flagship line.

C: Even if oldmarines lose legacy support in terms of rules, the numarines are still just dudes in power armor. If push comes to shove I can still use my current models.

D: I also have Tyranids, and I doubt they're going anywhere.

E: I genuinely think it's in GWs best interest not to kill all support for traditional marines. Even if they get no new kits, and just got updated rules every now and again, I will be quite happy.

. . .

Also Bretonnians. . . eew.

No, they are not a replacement.

- They have replaced no current classic marine kits, all are still on sale. Many of these kits are quite new, I doubt GW will stop selling them for many years yet.

- GW said in their Primaris FAQ that they are additional reinforcements for marines, not replacements.

- Classic marines are still being made in the current dark imperium timeline fluff. Large amounts of classic marines and stuff like Bloodclaws and Scouts are still present in the fluff.

- GW actually are still making classic marine models, in small numbers, in the form of a few bits from FW and the Japan Heroes series 1 and 2. The demand for the Japan hero marines in the rest of the world has convinced GW to release them worldwide, so there is clearly still a demand for classic space marines...

- Current models may not be replaced for a long time whilst Primaris are the focus, but do you really think GW will never make new versions of iconic units at some point in the future. No more mk7 or mk6 models ever? No more Indomitus terminators ever? I seriously doubt it.

- Not everyone likes Primaris. If this is a statistically significant number of people, then they will lose money if they cut normal marines. I don’t like Primaris models, I find them too big and I dislike their proportions. Not everybody is into ‘truescale’ sized marines, I much prefer classic marines. I dislike the lack of poseability in the kits, plus I just don’t like the design style of the models.

And lastly, if they were designed as a replacement, then they are a glacially slow one. 15 months since the initial wave of Primaris have come out and all they have released since then is a handful of alternate pose lieutenant models.

 Vankraken wrote:
Again GW is basically setting the stage to kill off old marines and it's surprising to me that very few people seem to care about that. Hard to believe that people with thousands of dolllars of pre 8th edition marines would be happy to have their army's models, fluff, and all that invested money/time invalidated because GW wanted to market truescale marines as an outright replacement. The problem with this is that without major push back it's going to make it marketable to do the same for all the other 40k armies in a similar way they have been doing in AoS.

But again, this kind of statement seems predicated on the idea that suddenly people won't be able to use their classic Space Marines. Your models aren't invalidated until their rules disappear. Will some recent players get a bit salty having bought old marines a couple months before Primaris showed up? Sure. That's unavoidable with any new kit release. Space Marines still exist and you'll be able to field them for a decade or more - and you'll be able to buy them for a long time, and even when they disappear the market on eBay etc. will be soooo flooded with old marine kits they will be around for 20+ years.

Whether or not marines are good game-wise is another discussion entirely. The realistic people in this thread simply acknowledge that, going forward, don't plan on normal marines. Buy as many as you want right now, and for the next several years --- but don't plan on new kits supporting your old models. It's just being realistic, not salty, angry, etc.

 Togusa wrote:

The Newman wrote:
I'll tell you what bothers me most about Primaris marines; everything about them is better than OldStartes except their grenades, and better grenades to go with the launcher would address the one real issue with not having heavy weapons options for them. It's so frustratingly close to being right.

If they got Missile Launcher ammo instead of the regular Frag and Krak grenades I'd have no complaints about Intercessors at all.

Actually that would be cool. Imagine if their GL changed to something like the following.

GL <choose profile>

Frag Grenade Assault d6 S4 AP- DMG1
Krak Grenade Assault 1 S6 AP-1 DMG 2
EMP Grenade Assault 1 S- AP-1 DMG D3 (Wound of 6+ causes 1 mortal wound to vehicles)
Incendiary Grenade Assault D3 S4 AP-2 DMG 1
Flash Grenade Assault 1 S3 AP- DMG 1 (When a unit suffers an unsaved wound, they get -1 to hit and to save for the remainder of the turn.)


All these toolbox functions would be great!

I wouldn't turn my nose up at the variety, especially not at adding Reiver-style Shock Grenades, but just the extra punch of ML ammo would be enough. Like I said, they got frustratingly close to making basic Intercessors good enough, but s6 ap1 d3 isn't quite enough to be a viable anti-tank gun and that's what they really need.

Although if you're trying to build a "pure" primaris list then anti-tank is going to be a problem for you regardless. I'll admit I rolled my Tartarus Pattern Terminators and my Centurions into my Primaris Company as "big lads that don't fit most transports".

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Ishagu wrote:
The Primaris will be more fleshed out in future and the model range will grow, allowing for multiple builds and list variations.

Once that happens, I see no reason for people to stay so loyal to the old Astartes line whilst bashing the Primaris as the models do look better and more imposing on the tabletop.

The current issues with limited models and customisation are only temporary. If you look at the Stormcast it's easy to see how much a range can grow and develop.

I'll be loyal to my army because it's what I've build, painted and played for years. While I'm probably in the minority GW will never get a dollar from me for any Primaris kits because the fluff for them is beyond boring and while the models look good, the last thing the game needed was marines 1.5. That combined with Primaris being Marines dumbed down, both model and option wise has me fairly pessimistic on th hobby. While I'm happy GW is finally being active again, it's increasing hostility to conversions and kit bashing is troubling.

No one is saying your army won't work in the future.
The Marine range is bloated and hit a thematic dead end. Continue on with your old Astartes.

The Primaris are a fresh start, not limited by old lore who can develop in exciting ways.

I probably own more fully painted traditional Astartes than 9 out of 10 collectors. Only Primaris excite me now, and there's nothing wrong with the lore. If you're expecting as much detail as what the classic Astartes have after 20+ years then you're being unreasonable.

I play GK, not normal marines, so maybe am not getting something, how is removing all options and making all models look more the same helps with fresh start ?
I am not saying that all tactical options are great, but at least they are there. Primaris are just same looking guys with bolters, or same looking guys with plasma cannons etc.

I think Primaris Marines are amazing models. The Inceptors especially remind me of my first models, Dorvack battlesuits and Dougram mechs. I want them all to have that blast-shield that comes with the Inceptors.

Karol wrote:
I play GK, not normal marines, so maybe am not getting something, how is removing all options and making all models look more the same helps with fresh start ?
I am not saying that all tactical options are great, but at least they are there. Primaris are just same looking guys with bolters, or same looking guys with plasma cannons etc.

They'll get extra options over time? They represent a design shift as the mentality of "one unit does all" doesn't actually work on the tabletop and most options are ignored anyways?

Primaris work like the 30k legions, and are clearly inspired by mk4 armour. It's all good

 Kanluwen wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

The generic chaplain that was released with the librarian is also still available.

Do you mean the one that had the integrated base and was later put into a box of 3(the Captain with Combi-Grav, Librarian with Cherub, and him)?

He's not available anymore that I can find. Wasn't available outside of the box of 3 and a Razorback bundle with a Command Squad either.

Yeah, you're right - I was misremembering, and thought it was this guy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vankraken wrote:
Again GW is basically setting the stage to kill off old marines and it's surprising to me that very few people seem to care about that. Hard to believe that people with thousands of dolllars of pre 8th edition marines would be happy to have their army's models, fluff, and all that invested money/time invalidated because GW wanted to market truescale marines as an outright replacement. The problem with this is that without major push back it's going to make it marketable to do the same for all the other 40k armies in a similar way they have been doing in AoS.

I'm not sure how you can have missed all of the complaints about Primaris marines from the time they were announced...

Personally, I'd probably be more upset about it if I was still playing the current version of 40K, but that ship sailed in 6th edition, and 7th and 8th haven't done anything to bring me back...

 insaniak wrote:

Yeah, you're right - I was misremembering, and thought it was this guy.

Damn, it hurts to look at those proportions after getting used to the Primaris Marines...

robbienw wrote:
- GW said in their Primaris FAQ that they are additional reinforcements for marines, not replacements.

As soon as the GW Bean Counters decide that the outrage won't cost as much as maintaining old stock, they will flip that stance in a heartbeat. I genuinely wish GW had just released Truescale marines and added new unit types rather than this convoluted mess of Chadmarines vs Oldmarines.

I'm at the point of just saying yes, let the primaris replace the old Marines. I have uncounted points of SMs including my beautiful HH Iron Hands and they just look so dinky compared to new models. Whether it's DG, genestealer cult, dark eldar, etc., The new models GW are producing are just better and out of scale with old marines. Even ignoring primaris for a moment, the fact that a normal marine is about the same height as a guardsman is just sad. Maybe they should have gone with true scale, who can say, but with the primaris here I say let old Marines fight it out in HH.

I’d have preferred it if the main GW studio could just produce some smaller human models rather than making marine models ridiculously big.

Aliens don’t matter, they are aliens and can thus be whatever size in relation to humans.

Maybe they aren’t capable of making good human models at smaller sizes than they are now.

To Insaniac:

8th hasn't done anything to bring you back?

It's the golden age of the hobby. If you can't see that then maybe it's time to box or sell your models and move on to something else.

Crimson wrote:Eh, I shelved my painstakingly converted marine army I've been building since 4th edition in favour of the Primaris, just like I shelved my 2nd edition Dark Angels army before that. New models come, they often look better than the older ones and stuff gets replaced. It's nothing new, not many people have armies composed of RT beakies any more these day.

Seems alien to me but to each their own. Thing is that it's your choice to shelve them. I fear this squatting of old marines and all their associated stuff will be forced on us by omission in future rulesets.

Crimson Devil wrote:So you're telling us that you have never retired old models over time as your skills and models get better? I've been playing Marines since 3rd edition and I have only one model from my original army.

My original shoots Boyz, Kanz, Lootas, and Biker Boyz are all still actively in my army. Again I can choose to shelf anything I want but being forced to due to GW omitting their existence is not a choice.

Stux wrote: Few people care about it!?!?

You could see for miles from the mountain of salt I've seen over Primaris!

Feels like the vocal minority are opposed to them while everyone else seems to be all on board with them due to being new to the hobby, unaware that old marines are going to be going away, or don't seem to care that they are phasing them out. Again this is something that seems extremely odd to me and I don't even consider myself super invested in space marines as I'm much more into Orks and Tau.

 Ishagu wrote:
To Insaniac:

8th hasn't done anything to bring you back?

Not really, no. There are elements I like (like rolling vehicle statlines into monstrous creatures), but overall it just didn't grab me, and the push for increasingly larger and larger models is just irritating.

My current preference is for 5th edition with modified casualty removal rules for multi-wound models, and Overwatch cribbed from 2nd edition.

. If you can't see that then maybe it's time to box or sell your models and move on to something else.

What a peculiar thing to say. Even if I were to stop playing 40K entirely, I would be unlikely to get rid of my models. An awful lot of blood, sweat and tears (at least two of those literally) has gone into that collection.

 Ishagu wrote:
To Insaniac:

8th hasn't done anything to bring you back?

It's the golden age of the hobby. If you can't see that then maybe it's time to box or sell your models and move on to something else.

It may be rule wise but as far as actual hobby, not really. GW is putting out more and more easy to build and mono pose models. There used to be half a dozen librarian models, now for the Primaris there is one, he's mono posed with no options. What a wealth of conversion opportunities. Additionally the Primaris models are all so samemy. No weapon options, barely any options for Sarge, bitz comparability between kits is non existent. Most of there recent releases look great but a lot of stuff that came out in 8th just has no soul.

 Vankraken wrote:
Feels like the vocal minority are opposed to them while everyone else seems to be all on board with them due to being new to the hobby, unaware that old marines are going to be going away, or don't seem to care that they are phasing them out. Again this is something that seems extremely odd to me and I don't even consider myself super invested in space marines as I'm much more into Orks and Tau.

Even if rule support for minimarines would vanish (and it won't soon, probably) you could still use most of your old marines as counts as Primaris. But most people won't, because Primaris models look better. It is like most people upgraded their marine armies from RT beakies when better looking models became available. You don't see many Dark Eldar armies made out of first generation DE models, nor you see many Gorkamorka era or older Orks or old metal Necrons. New models get released, most people upgrade. Granted, the fluff mess and having slightly different rules makes it a tad more awkward this time, but it is ultimately the same thing.

 Ishagu wrote:

Karol wrote:
I play GK, not normal marines, so maybe am not getting something, how is removing all options and making all models look more the same helps with fresh start ?
I am not saying that all tactical options are great, but at least they are there. Primaris are just same looking guys with bolters, or same looking guys with plasma cannons etc.

They'll get extra options over time? They represent a design shift as the mentality of "one unit does all" doesn't actually work on the tabletop and most options are ignored anyways?

Primaris work like the 30k legions, and are clearly inspired by mk4 armour. It's all good

If they get new options the same way GK get, it will take them another 20-30 years to catch up to old marines. I don't understand the does all part. Unless GW FAQs something, the good armies or good units do exactly that. They do one thing good, break opposing armies very well. There is no mid pack in w40k. Only the un nerfed stuff, which even when used by some casual wrecks face, or bottom tier stuff one has to wonder why it exists at all. To not use my army as an example all the time, what need is there for 2 anti air space marine tanks, what need is there to have one?

 Crimson wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


After looking at the reference I still don't see it coming.

I have some nice Bretonnian models I'd like to sell to you. They'll be getting a new armybook real soon!

*Looks over at my case with 3000 points of Brets.. cries

 Crimson wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
Feels like the vocal minority are opposed to them while everyone else seems to be all on board with them due to being new to the hobby, unaware that old marines are going to be going away, or don't seem to care that they are phasing them out. Again this is something that seems extremely odd to me and I don't even consider myself super invested in space marines as I'm much more into Orks and Tau.

Even if rule support for minimarines would vanish (and it won't soon, probably) you could still use most of your old marines as counts as Primaris. But most people won't, because Primaris models look better. It is like most people upgraded their marine armies from RT beakies when better looking models became available. You don't see many Dark Eldar armies made out of first generation DE models, nor you see many Gorkamorka era or older Orks or old metal Necrons. New models get released, most people upgrade. Granted, the fluff mess and having slightly different rules makes it a tad more awkward this time, but it is ultimately the same thing.

Its not quite the same thing though with your examples there and the difference between classic marines and Primaris.

There is a massive technical quality difference between first generation DE models and the ones that have been made more recently to use that example you have given. They were designed in different technological eras, the first lot in the era of hand sculpted miniatures and moulds made by machining, and the second lot made in the era of using CAD design and laser cut molds.

It just isn't the same with marines and primaris. Most current marine kits, with a few exceptions, are still relatively new and are CAD designed and made in laser cut moulds. Primaris aren't a massive technical leap forward like the DE in your example, they don't have any better sharper surface detailing or other technical attributes. The only real differences are their size and some body proportions, and this is subjective to individual opinion as to wether they look better or not.

robbienw wrote:

Its not quite the same thing though with your examples there and the difference between classic marines and Primaris.

There is a massive technical quality difference between first generation DE models and the ones that have been made more recently to use that example you have given. They were designed in different technological eras, the first lot in the era of hand sculpted miniatures and moulds made by machining, and the second lot made in the era of using CAD design and laser cut molds.

It just isn't the same with marines and primaris. Most current marine kits, with a few exceptions, are still relatively new and are CAD designed and made in laser cut moulds. Primaris aren't a massive technical leap forward like the DE in your example, they don't have any better sharper surface detailing or other technical attributes. The only real differences are their size and some body proportions, and this is subjective to individual opinion as to wether they look better or not.

Their proportions are not fethed up, they're artistically better, thus they're better.