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 Crimson wrote:

Their proportions are not fethed up, they're artistically better, thus they're better.

That doesn't make them objectively better, it just makes them slightly more realistically proportioned. Whether or not those proportions are better depends entirely on what you're looking for. The exaggerated and warped proportions of GW's older models aren't the result of sculptors not doing as good a job... they were a specific stylistic choice.

Primaris aren't intrinsically better, just different.


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 Crimson wrote:
. You don't see many Dark Eldar armies made out of first generation DE models, nor you see many Gorkamorka era or older Orks or old metal Necrons. .

While I fully acknowledge that I'm not 'most people'... My Dark Eldar army is made up of the original 3rd ed models, my Ork army is a mix of RT, 2nd ed, Space Hulk and post 3rd-ed models, and my Necron army is the old metals. While I may well collect some of the newer models at some point in the future, they won't replace the originals.

I think the Dark Eldar comparison doesn't line up all that well. The New models compared to the old ones don't look all that much alike and the replacement was almost total. Primaris vs Original Space Marines aren't that different looking. I'd consider it more like the Necron reboot, still using a bunch of existing models and adding to the range. Currently the Primaris release is kinda limited and they feel very incomplete almost two years into 8th.

Only on page one, but wanted to comment what I read so far. I don't get it. Why can't the Primaris marines just be used as regular Space Marines? Is this a strictly WYSIWYG and you can't use "counts as?" Or is this rules issues?

What is wrong saying "I have no primaris marines in my army but I like the minis and use them as if they are regular marines". What is wrong with that? Maybe someone like them because they are more true scale and uses the as regular marines. Nothing wrong in that.

Davor wrote:
Only on page one, but wanted to comment what I read so far. I don't get it. Why can't the Primaris marines just be used as regular Space Marines? Is this a strictly WYSIWYG and you can't use "counts as?" Or is this rules issues?

What is wrong saying "I have no primaris marines in my army but I like the minis and use them as if they are regular marines". What is wrong with that? Maybe someone like them because they are more true scale and uses the as regular marines. Nothing wrong in that.

At least in friendly play, at least so long as they are appropriately equipped, I doubt most players would have an issue with that, any more than they have done with any of the various 'true scale' conversions people have used over the years.

RaW you can use any model to represent any datasheet, as long as they are Citadel Miniatures.

If someone refuses to play you using Primaris models as True-Scale Tactical Marines, then they are the one at fault, not you.

I'd have no issues assuming the person took the time and effort to convert the weapon options right.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
RaW you can use any model to represent any datasheet, as long as they are Citadel Miniatures..

That's not 'RAW'... The rules don't cover which models to use, so 'RAW' you can't actually play at all because you have no way to figure out which models go with which statline.

As scary as the concept may be, RAW is not always the answer.



The general assumption is that you should use the model that matches the unit entry, or something appropriate otherwise, and exactly where the line is drawn on what is appropriate will vary from person to person. Someone refusing to play against you because you are using 'incorrect' models isn't in the wrong, nor are you in the wrong for your choice of models. You're simply making different choices on how to play the game.

 insaniak wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Actually, a thought crossed my mind as I hit post: never assume the community team has given us 100% of what's in the book. Wait for the book to make calls on if they're getting rules or not.

Warhammer 40000 wrote:Kill Team: Commanders is almost upon us – and we've got the full list of Imperial units from the book! Find out which Commanders you'll be able to add to your roster alongside some top tactics:

From here.

Must have missed that when I was skimming through yesterday. Well I always have the right to be wrong.


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The Newman wrote:
I'll tell you what bothers me most about Primaris marines; everything about them is better than OldStartes except their grenades, and better grenades to go with the launcher would address the one real issue with not having heavy weapons options for them. It's so frustratingly close to being right.

If they got Missile Launcher ammo instead of the regular Frag and Krak grenades I'd have no complaints about Intercessors at all.

Most of them are using generic bolt pistols (which is odd since the bolt pistols the Reivers have are Heavy Bolt Pistols and are identical to the ones you see in the hands of the Intercessors and others).

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Most of them are using generic bolt pistols (which is odd since the bolt pistols the Reivers have are Heavy Bolt Pistols and are identical to the ones you see in the hands of the Intercessors and others).

Actually they aren't quite the same. The Reiver pistols are noticeably larger.

The heat shroud looks a smidge bigger, but the pistol itself looks about the same size. Also the Reiver has a shorter box magazine.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The heat shroud looks a smidge bigger, but the pistol itself looks about the same size. Also the Reiver has a shorter box magazine.

Point is the Heavy Bolt Pistol is larger and visually distinctive though, even if they are similar.

Looking at both models right now - the heavy bolt pistol is definitely larger, albeit subtle

 Stux wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
The heat shroud looks a smidge bigger, but the pistol itself looks about the same size. Also the Reiver has a shorter box magazine.

Point is the Heavy Bolt Pistol is larger and visually distinctive though, even if they are similar.

The only thing that really makes it look like it is all the different in the round it fires is the larger hole drilled in the barrel, but honestly they look so similar I didn't even notice a difference until it was pointed out. That said, how many varient bolt guns do we have all with the same statline which could have been different? I guess this is just GW finally going "yes, the exact gun on the model does matter now" unlike before were any old bolter would do and you just picked your favorite to model with.

 Ishagu wrote:
To Insaniac:

8th hasn't done anything to bring you back?

Me, it has pretty much driven me away. I hate the current "Vehicles are MC", Morale rules are awful and less said about Command Points, the better.

Primaris aesthetics doesn't do much for me either. Basic Primaris look good but no better than the old Marines, and rest of the Primaris range is pretty stupid. Particularly Inceptors and those idiotic 'gun shields'.

 Crimson wrote:

robbienw wrote:

Its not quite the same thing though with your examples there and the difference between classic marines and Primaris.

There is a massive technical quality difference between first generation DE models and the ones that have been made more recently to use that example you have given. They were designed in different technological eras, the first lot in the era of hand sculpted miniatures and moulds made by machining, and the second lot made in the era of using CAD design and laser cut molds.

It just isn't the same with marines and primaris. Most current marine kits, with a few exceptions, are still relatively new and are CAD designed and made in laser cut moulds. Primaris aren't a massive technical leap forward like the DE in your example, they don't have any better sharper surface detailing or other technical attributes. The only real differences are their size and some body proportions, and this is subjective to individual opinion as to wether they look better or not.

Their proportions are not fethed up, they're artistically better, thus they're better.

That’s not the case, it doesn’t work like that.

They are subjectively better to you, because you prefer their proportions being closer to real world human/idealised human art proportions. That doesn’t make them universally better. There is no unwritten fact that says a mini must have real world proportions, they can be stylised, many art things are.

As insaniak was saying, it’s indeed a stylistic choice from GW that marines have heroic proportions. Just because they change that a bit for a marine variant,it doesn’t mean there is anything intrinsically wrong with more heroically proportioned models. Some people prefer that look.

Primaris still have a lot of heroic proportions going on anyway. Their arms are still quite long, they have massively oversized lower legs and feet, and their weapons are still oversized.

robbienw wrote:

That’s not the case, it doesn’t work like that.

They are subjectively better to you, because you prefer their proportions being closer to real world human/idealised human art proportions. That doesn’t make them universally better. There is no unwritten fact that says a mini must have real world proportions, they can be stylised, many art things are.

As insaniak was saying, it’s indeed a stylistic choice from GW that marines have heroic proportions. Just because they change that a bit for a marine variant,it doesn’t mean there is anything intrinsically wrong with more heroically proportioned models. Some people prefer that look.

Primaris still have a lot of heroic proportions going on anyway. Their arms are still quite long, they have massively oversized lower legs and feet, and their weapons are still oversized.

Yes, nothing wrong with heroic proportions, imitating real proportions exactly doesn't work on a tiny miniature. It is just that this too is something you can do in a better or worse way, and Primaris way is better. I'm an art teacher, don't give me this 'it's just a style' bs.
In any case, regardless of what you may think, I am absolutely certain that vast majority of people who do not let their bitterness about the Primaris or fear of their old models becoming obsolete (so all the new players,at least) to affect their judgement will see the Primaris as obviously superior product and this will be felt in the sales figures. I wouldn't be surprised if in near future GW would start moving old marine models to mail order only, as there is no point in filling store shelves with stuff most people wont buy. Afterall, the people wo are mostly against the Primaris are those with extensive collections anyway, and were not gonna buy much new minimarines anyway.

 Crimson wrote:

Yes, nothing wrong with heroic proportions, imitating real proportions exactly doesn't work on a tiny miniature. It is just that this too is something you can do in a better or worse way, and Primaris way is better. I'm an art teacher, don't give me this 'it's just a style' bs.
In any case, regardless of what you may think, I am absolutely certain that vast majority of people who do not let their bitterness about the Primaris or fear of their old models becoming obsolete (so all the new players,at least) to affect their judgement will see the Primaris as obviously superior product and this will be felt in the sales figures. I wouldn't be surprised if in near future GW would start moving old marine models to mail order only, as there is no point in filling store shelves with stuff most people wont buy. Afterall, the people wo are mostly against the Primaris are those with extensive collections anyway, and were not gonna buy much new minimarines anyway.

I prefer primaris look in normal marines. But I don't like gravis armour and I miss primaris size terminators, land speeders (Dark Angels) etc. Normal terminator looks too small when it is next to primaris model. Primaris models look good with skitarii models so maybe I buy some primaris for mechanicus ally.

Yes, nothing wrong with heroic proportions, imitating real proportions exactly doesn't work on a tiny miniature. It is just that this too is something you can do in a better or worse way, and Primaris way is better. I'm an art teacher, don't give me this 'it's just a style' bs.
In any case, regardless of what you may think, I am absolutely certain that vast majority of people who do not let their bitterness about the Primaris or fear of their old models becoming obsolete (so all the new players,at least) to affect their judgement will see the Primaris as obviously superior product and this will be felt in the sales figures. I wouldn't be surprised if in near future GW would start moving old marine models to mail order only, as there is no point in filling store shelves with stuff most people wont buy. Afterall, the people wo are mostly against the Primaris are those with extensive collections anyway, and were not gonna buy much new minimarines anyway.

It is a stylistic difference, and it is just your subjective opinion.

Primaris are not an obviously superior product. They are just another product, you may like them better others may not. Showing a picture of a crappy 3 part paint set starter marine, instead of a multi-part tactical for example, doesn't change that. There are people out there that don't like any kind of space marine and think they all of them look stupid believe it or not.

It might be time for you to learn people have a different viewpoint to you, and your viewpoint is not fact.

I think people who doubt how the Primaris range can improve need to look at the Stormcast Eternals.

When they launched it was a limited collection of kits that were all quite generic in terms of style. Now, after several waves of additional releases, the range is far greater, more varied and has more character.

I don't want Primaris to copy the old range unit by unit. I don't want some rubbish variant like Assault Marines, or a heavy support unit limited to only 4 heavy weapons, or 4 variations of Terminators that all suck.
So far the Aggressors and Inceptors are new unit types that perform their roles well. I can't wait to see what new units are released with the next wave of models for the range.

As for how the army looks, I think people who claim to prefer the old models need to see a well painted Primaris army on the tabletop doing battle with Imperial Guard or another force. They look so much more impressive, imposing and are correctly sized. There's no question the kits are better looking.

Accepting Primaris doesn't mean you have to reject the old Marines. That range went as far as it could and is now bloated. I never want to see another Rhino chassis vehicle release lol

 Crimson wrote:

In any case, regardless of what you may think, I am absolutely certain that vast majority of people who do not let their bitterness about the Primaris or fear of their old models becoming obsolete (so all the new players,at least) to affect their judgement will see the Primaris as obviously superior product

It's nothing to do with bitterness. I like the Primaris proportions. I don't like their size, nor do I like that they look out of proportion to everything else in the imperial model range, nor that they're all wearing the exact same armor without the personal embellishments and piecemeal part replacement that was standard on regular marines by this point. And don't even get me started on the 47 different types of bolters...

So for me, the balance tips significantly against Primaris without 'bitterness' even entering the equation.

 Ishagu wrote:
As for how the army looks, I think people who claim to prefer the old models need to see a well painted Primaris army on the tabletop doing battle with Imperial Guard or another force.

Its really not difficult to look good against plastic Cadians or Catachans

I have seen many a well painted Primaris army. I've tried looking at Primaris many times and seeing if I get used to them in person, as can happen with greater exposure to minis, but its not working. They still look ugly to me!

Call me naive if you will but I really don't see this as some sort of grand conspiracy and GW won't simply shaft the older space marines. There are simply too many kits, sprues, skus, rules and the like to discontinue. Even GW knows that doing that would risk annoying too many players and fanbase.

Worst case scenario, GW moves most of the 'classic' SM stuff from in stores to GW direct which is what they have done already on some stuff. Primaris becomes the only space marine kits you can buy in store and becomes the forefront of the marketing and products you see in store.

On the flipside though, it's not the first time the 40k universe has had technology lost in the past and relegated to mere relics due to lost STC. Maybe not now but one day that could also happen.

CSM needs updating. PM and rubrics are good models but we need bigger basic marines and havocs. Question is are new models replacement or new ones like primaris?

Some help is if you use mk3 or mk4 marines from calth and prospero, but chaos needs own new models too. What GW will do them?

 Stux wrote:
This has been a topic of much debate already, and the community is pretty divided on what they think the long game is .

Personally I don't think they're likely to ever release an old scale marine kit again (outside of some sort of nostalgic special edition type release), but at the same time there's no reason for the to withdraw old kits from sale while they are selling well. So it could easily take a decade to see the old marines leave the shelves, given how long a lot of kits stick around for anyway.

I don't know what else has been said in this thread, but I second this.

I would be okay if they announced there would be no further normal marine development, but kept selling till stock ran out.

Why is this subject so toxic? It allways ends up in two camps saying the other sides models look like gak. Feth you guys! My classic marines will live forever in the emperors holy light and primaris marines can do whatever they like. I don't care for primaris but that does not mean I want their model line discontinued so I can drink the tears of those collectors who enjoy them.

I think you make a lot of suppositions.

If you take models from 1992 second edition, and place them with models from 2002, and then put them next to models from 2018, I don't think a neophyte would even identify them as the same range.

So what classic marine mini's are you working to keep in stock?

Also what is the end point, GW has been quietly "squatting" individual models for years. This isn't new.

But I do think there needs to be some realism in the marine space. What exactly is the design space on old marines? New assault pack options? New tanks? what other new options? GW pruning back this model line would open up plenty of opportunity for new growth for them.

Reemule wrote:
I think you make a lot of suppositions.

If you take models from 1992 second edition, and place them with models from 2002, and then put them next to models from 2018, I don't think a neophyte would even identify them as the same range.

So what classic marine mini's are you working to keep in stock?

Also what is the end point, GW has been quietly "squatting" individual models for years. This isn't new.

But I do think there needs to be some realism in the marine space. What exactly is the design space on old marines? New assault pack options? New tanks? what other new options? GW pruning back this model line would open up plenty of opportunity for new growth for them.

Im not super familiar on RT era models but a tactical Marine is a tactical Marine even if the model got slightly bigger over the years. Old terminators compared to new terminators are still terminators and while they look a bit silly, in gameplay terms they continue to do what they do because they represent the same thing. Primaris are entirely new entries with new rules, gear, and don't really have a lot of equivalency between the two Marine types. The lore of space marines for years has had marines on bikes, using Jump packs, in Terminator armor, using drop pods, riding in metal baw I mean Rhinos, organized into the various flavors of tactical, assault, devastator, scout, and mounted marines plus whatever oddities get mixed in (like centurions, wulfen, etc). Primaris is all new and not looking very backwards comparable which appears to be by design. This process of squatting and replacing the most popular model line in GW's catalog is not the same old thing of just updating sculpts every so soften like they did with Tau Broadsides, DE grots, etc because those entries still exist even if the models doubled in size (I've seen plenty of old grotesques in use and my broadsides are the old Crisis suit upgrades). Entries like Necron Parihas got squatted but they are generally an uncommon occurrence and not the entire product line between compared to what appears to be the systematic (eventually forced) migration from old marines to Primaris.

Forcing an artificial product life on models that you have to invest hundreds of hours to assemble and paint feels extremely anti consumer and a terrible direction for GW to go. If this proves economically viable (numbers seem to point to yes which is not the type of message I want GW to hear) then I have huge concerns that the same could happen for other 40k product lines like Orks, Eldar, Guard, etc. I would think that the risk of forced obsolescence of a product line would get people more vocal about these concerns but it seems like only a vocal minority care.

Gitdakka wrote:
Why is this subject so toxic? It allways ends up in two camps saying the other sides models look like gak. Feth you guys! My classic marines will live forever in the emperors holy light and primaris marines can do whatever they like. I don't care for primaris but that does not mean I want their model line discontinued so I can drink the tears of those collectors who enjoy them.

I agree here. I think normal marines are squat little dwarves with angry frowny face masks that tend to look goofy rather than imposing. But I wouldn't want to see that line discontinued if there are still active fans of it.

 Crimson wrote:

Yes, nothing wrong with heroic proportions, imitating real proportions exactly doesn't work on a tiny miniature. It is just that this too is something you can do in a better or worse way, and Primaris way is better. I'm an art teacher, don't give me this 'it's just a style' bs.

It's true, technically intercessors are more accurate. But in this case stylized is just stylized. Even if you don't agree, it's clearly been effective enough given how successful the marine line has been for decades now.

Being an art teacher doesn't automatically make you right, and if you are a teacher, I'd expect a better explanation of your position than posting a meme, just saying "it's better" and "I'm a teacher."


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 insaniak wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

In any case, regardless of what you may think, I am absolutely certain that vast majority of people who do not let their bitterness about the Primaris or fear of their old models becoming obsolete (so all the new players,at least) to affect their judgement will see the Primaris as obviously superior product

It's nothing to do with bitterness. I like the Primaris proportions. I don't like their size, nor do I like that they look out of proportion to everything else in the imperial model range, nor that they're all wearing the exact same armor without the personal embellishments and piecemeal part replacement that was standard on regular marines by this point. And don't even get me started on the 47 different types of bolters...

So for me, the balance tips significantly against Primaris without 'bitterness' even entering the equation.

Fully agree with this. The two marine styles don't look good together, imo. I too like the look of the Intercessors but I don't want any in my army because they look weird next to everything else. Right now my army is unified in style, and I'm inclined to keep it that way. If I want Primaris as a unit, I'm inclined to use a specific subset of oldmarines, and I have a collection of current beakies that I might use for just that. We'll see.