I think i would be more comfortable to see a Primaris upgrade option to Grey Hunters, Blood Claws, Long Fangs and Wolf Guard (+1 Wound, +1 Attack, +points, voila).

I just don't want to see the Space Marines i have known and loved for years be sidelined which is currently where i think things are going.

I can foresee a time when all the classic Space Marine options will be 'Legends' and no longer supported. It may not be this edition, or even next edition, but i can see it happening.

I do understand that GW have probably felt this was needed to be done in order to encourage people to purchase new Space Marine armies. I am just a Space Marine purist and prefer the Classic options.

Karol wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The SW can be uniquely tied to Fenris. Their successors don't have to be.

Let's put it another way - Space Wolves geneseed is capable of existing outside of Fenris, due to the initial Terran Legionnaires. It's not unbelievable that Cawl might have used some of the pure strain original geneseed (which there are versions of, for EVERY Legion, not just the loyalists), and some of that may have been used for a SW successor, who operate a lot less centrally to their Fenrisian brethren.

Plus, the Wolfspear aren't related to Fenris - more reasons that SW successors don't need Fenrisian support.

How what that even work, if the SW supposed succesors had different gene seed from the one SW have then they are not SW succesors, but some other chapter.

It's not different geneseed, it's simply the original used by the first Terran Legions. It's still Leman Russ' geneseed, but in a purer form, with less geneseed degradation.

If they used pre Russ on Fenris gene seed, then they would be Wolfs of Space succesors, and that legion had as much to do with Space Wolfes as Blood Angels had, before they were joined by Sanguinius.

You might be confusing how geneseed works and how it fitted into the chronology of the Legions?

Space Wolves geneseed existed before Russ had even landed on Fenris, because it was translated from him during infancy. Primarchs first, then geneseed taken from them, then the Primarchs being scattered, and then the Legions being raised - at least from my current understanding?

But, more fundamentally, just because a geneseed is more pure doesn't change that it's still 'Space Wolves geneseed'.

Aren't the hellblasters and heavy intercessors, or the erdictors kind of a like long fangs? And the different intercessors could as well be GH or BC, just by virtue of having basic +1A.

The only unit hard to transfer are the WG, as those are kind of a very space wolf specific.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Then there's nothing preventing you from doing counts-as Successors.

Sure - let's scrap all successors from every Chapter except... I don't know, the White Scars, and if you actually really wanted that heritage from someone else, well, tough luck, screw you, I guess?

That's absurd. Space Wolves not having successors has been (in my opinion) a terrible standpoint on the front of limiting player freedom, and I fully welcome it. It opens the floodgates for so much more creativity and encourages player freedom.

Okay, let's be real here:
There is nothing "heritage" related about the rules for Space Wolves. It's the models that have that going.

I don't know what to tell you other than that. There's not really anything unique lost by running a Successor for Space Wolves as 'counts as' compared to the current Successor setup--if anything, it's actually better doing it that way since you can do 'counts as' versions of the various characters.

Karol wrote:What kind of a freedom is that, if it goes against all the lore and how the setting functions.

It really doesn't.

As we've seen, current lore supports that those with SW geneseed don't *need* Fenris. Sources - pre-Russ Space Wolves (Terran) and the Wolfspear.

May as well start doing other weird stuff with marine lore and explain it with, Cawl did it.

Depending on what that 'weird stuff' is, I have no issues with that.

If it adds to player freedoms without vastly taking away from other things, what's the problem?

Deus ex Machina is only good for comedies and greek tragedies, not for modern lore writing.

Space Wolves getting successors isn't Deus-Ex-Machina, not in any classical sense at least, more in it's bastardised sense.

Non fenrisian SW makes as much sense as Primaris BA successors without the black rage and visions of death.

Is now a good time to tell you that the Lamenters Chapter very much *did* nearly bypass the above conditions?

Also, Fenrisian just means 'of Fenris'. They don't need to be on Fenris to suffer from the Canis Helix or Curse of the Wulfen. Those are two totally different things. I'd be all on board with, say, my aforementioned Native American SW successor having a Curse of the Wulfen effect, and being known within that Chapter as Wendigos or something.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Then there's nothing preventing you from doing counts-as Successors.

Sure - let's scrap all successors from every Chapter except... I don't know, the White Scars, and if you actually really wanted that heritage from someone else, well, tough luck, screw you, I guess?

That's absurd. Space Wolves not having successors has been (in my opinion) a terrible standpoint on the front of limiting player freedom, and I fully welcome it. It opens the floodgates for so much more creativity and encourages player freedom.

Okay, let's be real here:
There is nothing "heritage" related about the rules for Space Wolves. It's the models that have that going.

Heritage can still be found in the fluff, and in regards to rules, things like wanting wolf cavalry or keen senses can be very desirable, with no real way to count-as completely.

I don't know what to tell you other than that. There's not really anything unique lost by running a Successor for Space Wolves as 'counts as' compared to the current Successor setup--if anything, it's actually better doing it that way since you can do 'counts as' versions of the various characters.

Likewise, there's nothing unique lost by scrapping all Successor rules and just having any successors from any Chapters just pretending to be whatever rules suit them.

Basically, all I'm saying is that if people who want SW successors need to settle for count-as, everyone else should too.

Hey Smudge, do you have anything saying the Wolfspear aren't Fenrisian?

All I can find a mention of is them being of "The Unnumbered Sons" and this:

The Wolfspear were among the Primaris Space Marine Chapters created during the Ultima Founding at the direct order of Roboute Guilliman and were created after the conclusion of the Indomitus Crusade, from Space Wolves descended members of the Unnumbered Sons. The Chapter was then charged by Guilliman with guarding the Pit of Raukos from any future Chaos incursions - to the dismay of some members of the Wolfspear, who had hoped to continue fighting on the front-lines against the Imperium's enemies. Further clouding the minds of the Chapter is that although the Space Wolves have allowed Primaris Space Marines into their ranks, it is not known if they will accept the Wolfspear as true Sons of Russ.

I haven't read the Dark Imperium novel so can't comment.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:Likewise, there's nothing unique lost by scrapping all Successor rules and just having any successors from any Chapters just pretending to be whatever rules suit them.

Basically, all I'm saying is that if people who want SW successors need to settle for count-as, everyone else should too.

*shrug*
It's only recently that we started seeing actual rules based stuff for Successors again. It wouldn't be a huge loss beyond it being related to what you can/can't draw from for stratagems and relics.

It's not different geneseed, it's simply the original used by the first Terran Legions. It's still Leman Russ' geneseed, but in a purer form, with less geneseed degradation

Original fenrisians use gene splicing to better themselfs with animal gene stock. This had strange effects on fenrisian born marines, when SW gene seed was put in to them, as it kind of a resonated and gave birth to things like the wulfen. After 10k years of being used and generation and generations of fenrisian people, the gene seed that the SW have and use right now, is drasticly different from what was put in to terran born wolfs of space.

Both are and were marines, but the terrans had non of the pack mentality or obediance fenrisians have. In fact before fenrisian born space wolfs became a thing, the legion was uncontrolable to a point where it had the highest number of bost battle executions of any legions. Only WE and BA were worse, but those were totaly uncontrolable, and from what I read indistinguishable.

Whats the point in having different legions at all.. they are all just primaris.

Seriouisly @sgt_smudge, you are missing my point completely. They are REMOVING OPTIONS AND UNIQUENESS AND I WANT THEM TO KEEP THE OPTIONS OPEN. You seem obssessed with this idea that because i dont like your option I am gatekeeping. I dont care if you play primaris, I dont care who plays them... Great, enjoy them. I have a problem with being told my stuff is invalid and needs to become cookie cutter white bread. I dont want to play your army I perfectly enjoyed playing my army. You are the one gatekeeping, you are the ones telling us to convert to the new white bread cookie cutter standards or stop playing with your precious power armor. Screw that.

I dont want to play SM i want to play SW.

@Crimson, the very fact that they are taking the unique stuff out of the lore is what I have a problem with. its only being taken out so we re-buy our entire armies and "upgrade" to generic primaris mechanics. I want to play SW , I dont want to play SM , i didnt choose the army because they were SM i chose them for all the fluff, flavour and unique mechanics that came with them... otherwise i would have picked SM and i would have made them aesthetically wolfy.

It is honestly ridiculous that people are trying to tell me I am being gatekeepy because I don't like that in order to play the army I bought I need to give up the unique units i chose the army for and play bland units that didnt exist until 2 years ago.

Have the primaris option. but stop trying to tell me my faction isnt different because the unique and different stuff is "obsolete". who do you think made them obsolete ? maybe it was GW who did by injecting replacements to everything you already bought into the lore... common guys get some perspective.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Hey Smudge, do you have anything saying the Wolfspear aren't Fenrisian?

All I can find a mention of is them being of "The Unnumbered Sons" and this:

The Wolfspear were among the Primaris Space Marine Chapters created during the Ultima Founding at the direct order of Roboute Guilliman and were created after the conclusion of the Indomitus Crusade, from Space Wolves descended members of the Unnumbered Sons. The Chapter was then charged by Guilliman with guarding the Pit of Raukos from any future Chaos incursions - to the dismay of some members of the Wolfspear, who had hoped to continue fighting on the front-lines against the Imperium's enemies. Further clouding the minds of the Chapter is that although the Space Wolves have allowed Primaris Space Marines into their ranks, it is not known if they will accept the Wolfspear as true Sons of Russ.

I haven't read the Dark Imperium novel so can't comment.

Having read Dark Imperium, there was no mention of the Wolfspear being Fenrisian.
One of the two (I think) Wolfspear characters we see is definitely *from* Fenris (or at least, acts like he is), but is also explicitly from 10,000 years ago, having been kept frozen in stasis.

Basically, the Wolfspear are made up initially of Primaris Marines of Russ' ancestry who were frozen 10,000 years ago, and then formed their own Chapter, which, presumably, doesn't recruit from Fenris, what with the two planets being pretty far away (practically on other sides of the galaxy, I think). Therefore, it's pretty unlikely that they're reliant on Fenrisian natives.

Tough luck buddy because Space Wolves ARE Space Marines. You don't need the influx of everything being different just because. It's a lot healthier for the game to treat them the same.

Karol wrote:

It's not different geneseed, it's simply the original used by the first Terran Legions. It's still Leman Russ' geneseed, but in a purer form, with less geneseed degradation

Original fenrisians use gene splicing to better themselfs with animal gene stock. This had strange effects on fenrisian born marines, when SW gene seed was put in to them, as it kind of a resonated and gave birth to things like the wulfen. After 10k years of being used and generation and generations of fenrisian people, the gene seed that the SW have and use right now, is drasticly different from what was put in to terran born wolfs of space.

Both are and were marines, but the terrans had non of the pack mentality or obediance fenrisians have. In fact before fenrisian born space wolfs became a thing, the legion was uncontrolable to a point where it had the highest number of bost battle executions of any legions. Only WE and BA were worse, but those were totaly uncontrolable, and from what I read indistinguishable.

Right, but the Terrans still had Russ's geneseed in them. Ostensibly, they were/are still Space Wolves, and should be regarded as successor Chapters of Russ' lineage.

The actual Space Wolves Chapter might be reliant on Fenrisians, but the Space Wolves geneseed does not need it.

(Also, ironic that you'd say the Fenrisians have obedience, because they seem to boast about their feral-ness!)

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Cornishman wrote:
How to Wolfyfy Primaris, now that Crawl's initial batch of Primaris are settled in so presumably the 'new' primaris are either oldborn crossing the rubicon or new recruits....

Take Assault Intercessors, Rename Primaris Blood Claws <tweek rules to taste>
Take Intercessors, rename Primaris Grey Hunters...
Take Hellblasters, rename to Longfang Hellblasters....

No need to tweak the rules. Just rename and it's sufficient.

But being Headstrong Berserkers is a key thing that differentiates Blood Claws from regular Assault Marines. Simply renaming Assault Intercessors would lose this quintessential essence from the Blood Claw.

Type40 wrote:Whats the point in having different legions at all.. they are all just primaris.

So, you don't think Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, etc etc should exist, because they don't have unique units?

What about before Primaris were a thing, and all of the above Chapters still had the same rules? Was there no point in them being unique? Did they not have unique cultures and histories?

Seriouisly @sgt_smudge, you are missing my point completely. They are REMOVING OPTIONS AND UNIQUENESS AND I WANT THEM TO KEEP THE OPTIONS OPEN.

No, they're not.

Or, if you still feel so insistent, prove it.

You're missing my point - which is don't scream about something unless it's actually happening. And until you can show me that it is, don't expect me to stop mentioning it.

You seem obssessed with this idea that because i dont like your option I am gatekeeping.

I said you were gatekeeping because you very heavily implied that "If you care about the lore, you wouldn't play Primaris".

Nothing about my opinion, entirely with your ideas that Primaris Wolves are somehow less valid than Firstborn ones. And if that's your own personal standards, you're welcome to them! But don't turn around and use the whole "if you care about the lore" dogwhistle.

I have a problem with being told my stuff is invalid and needs to become cookie cutter white bread.

Great news! No-one is telling you that!

Stop. Making. Up. Things. GW haven't invalidated anything yet as far as we can tell. When/if they do, different story - but that's not true according to our current understanding of the situation. Look at what we know, not making up things.

You are the one gatekeeping, you are the ones telling us to convert to the new white bread cookie cutter standards

Again, no-one's saying that.

Stop making gak up.

@Crimson, the very fact that they are taking the unique stuff out of the lore is what I have a problem with.

And that stuff is...?

It is honestly ridiculous that people are trying to tell me I am being gatekeepy because I don't like that in order to play the army I bought I need to give up the unique units i chose the army for

No-one said that.

I called you gatekeepy because you made an appeal to "if you cared about lore, you do XYZ". I don't care how *you* enjoy your army, but when you start turning around and acting all "well this is the TRUUUUUE way to play", then I'm going to have an issue.

Read my arguments. I don't care about how you play, but don't act like there's "one true way".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cornishman wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Cornishman wrote:
How to Wolfyfy Primaris, now that Crawl's initial batch of Primaris are settled in so presumably the 'new' primaris are either oldborn crossing the rubicon or new recruits....

Take Assault Intercessors, Rename Primaris Blood Claws <tweek rules to taste>
Take Intercessors, rename Primaris Grey Hunters...
Take Hellblasters, rename to Longfang Hellblasters....

No need to tweak the rules. Just rename and it's sufficient.

But being Headstrong Berserkers is a key thing that differentiates Blood Claws from regular Assault Marines. Simply renaming Assault Intercessors would lose this quintessential essence from the Blood Claw.

Okay - introduce a rule where in <Space Wolves> <Assault Intercessor> Squads gain the Headstrong Berserkers ability.
One sentence fix.

Or, something instead like "Space Wolves Assault Intercessor, Assault Marine, and Bike Squads all gain the <Blood Claws> keyword. Models with the <Blood Claws> keyword gain the Headstrong Berserkers rule."

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tough luck buddy because Space Wolves ARE Space Marines. You don't need the influx of everything being different just because. It's a lot healthier for the game to treat them the same.

cool then put the CSM and GK in the great power armor codex as well. Why not, they are all SM right ?
Why bother having unique armies at all in fact ? why not just make the entire game SM. Everyone has access to exactly the same stuff only. That would fix balance at least. We don't need the influx of everything being different just because... I get you. In a game that has introduced variations and separate factions over the past 20 years whilst enticing people to have unique and customized war games that suit what they like and enjoy playing. Its better to remove all variation and all uniqueness in the armies... that makes sense, its definitely what made this game popular over the years. You guys are talking about how you want SW to have successor chapters... why,,, if they are all just gonna be primaris. oh great, you have a slightly different chapter tactic then the other primaris,,, but your army is exactly the same.

Come on, stop buying this crap. The game is being turned into white bread so they can sell more copies of generic models they are making to more people and the fact that so many people are buying it up like they are serving them gold is just ridiculous. They don't care about your army they just want you to replace everything you bought before with their new stuff and they dont even want to put the effort in to making anything unique.

lol , they ARE space marines... ya, CSM ARE also space marines. Dark Eldar ARE eldar, maybe commorragh should just be a craftworld ?
What about the TS and DG ,,, shouldnt they be in the SM or at least the CSM codex ? they ARE Space Marines ? again,,, "we don't need the influc of everything being diffrent just because" ... even though SWs have been a different faction for about 20 years... no reason to think they should be different JUST because...

Just have a little perspective and stop eating up everything your being told. GW does want to sell you as much as possible and the fact that people cant see that this is all a part of that is just annoying to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


I never said anything about people not playing what they want to play. I have only said that there "ARE PEOPLE WHO DO NOT WANT TO PLAY GENERIC COOKIE CUTTER PRIMARIS MARINES." Do I need to keep repeating that to you while you put words into my mouth about how I think "there is one true way to play X Y Z ." Read what i am writing and stop reading what you think I am writing. and again... if you think this supplement is going to have 56ish unique datasheets like the SW codex had... then you clearly have never seen a SM supplement before.

Stop trying to gatekeep by telling people who dont want to play with a generic boring army that they have to ,,,, even though they got into the game, built there armies and have enjoyed not doing that up until recently.
stop eating up everthing GW tells you that you want and at minimum stop telling everyone else they have to as well.

I'm actually for getting rid of the Death Guard and Thousand Sons codices so you're partly on track.

In 2007 the 4th ed CSM codex replaced the 3.5 one and the Chaos legions effectively ceased to exist from a rules standpoint. And yet here we are. In the year 2020 Thousand Sons have their own codex and Space Wolves are getting rolled into the vanilla marine dex. This is surreal.

 Type40 wrote:
I never said anything about people not playing what they want to play.

Really? What about when you said:

Type40 wrote:In SW, currently, you take plasma cannon long fangs,,, not hellblasters...
In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take bloodclaws not generic primaris assault.
In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take grey hunters, not generic intercessors.

Those are definitely implications of "if you like Intercessors, then you don't like the fluff".

I have only said that there "ARE PEOPLE WHO DO NOT WANT TO PLAY GENERIC COOKIE CUTTER PRIMARIS MARINES."

That's not what you said back there though.

Do I need to keep repeating that to you while you put words into my mouth about how I think "there is one true way to play X Y Z ." Read what i am writing and stop reading what you think I am writing. and again...

I did read. I just quoted you.

If you'd like to address those comments?

if you think this supplement is going to have 56ish unique datasheets like the SW codex had... then you clearly have never seen a SM supplement before.

Why do the Wolves need 56 unique datasheets? By my count, they had something like <20, not counting named characters. For what it's worth, the Ultramarines have 12 (I think) unique datasheets in theirs, including characters. So, it's safe to say the Wolves double that number - and, let's say two datasheets per side, two sides per page, so four datasheets per page, and that's... three extra pages? Let's say four extra pages to be sure.

Wow. A whole FOUR EXTRA PAGES OF DATASHEETS! Yeah, that's really not a big issue, especially when there's about that kind of difference between the Iron Hands and Ultramarines already. So yeah, it really wouldn't be an issue.

If you'd like to take the time to tell us what those 56 unique datasheets are, I'd be most welcome.

Stop trying to gatekeep by telling people who dont want to play with a generic boring army that they have to

No-one said that.

Stop making stuff up.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Cornishman wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Cornishman wrote:
How to Wolfyfy Primaris, now that Crawl's initial batch of Primaris are settled in so presumably the 'new' primaris are either oldborn crossing the rubicon or new recruits....

Take Assault Intercessors, Rename Primaris Blood Claws <tweek rules to taste>
Take Intercessors, rename Primaris Grey Hunters...
Take Hellblasters, rename to Longfang Hellblasters....

No need to tweak the rules. Just rename and it's sufficient.

But being Headstrong Berserkers is a key thing that differentiates Blood Claws from regular Assault Marines. Simply renaming Assault Intercessors would lose this quintessential essence from the Blood Claw.

Okay - introduce a rule where in <Space Wolves> <Assault Intercessor> Squads gain the Headstrong Berserkers ability.
One sentence fix.

Or, something instead like "Space Wolves Assault Intercessor, Assault Marine, and Bike Squads all gain the <Blood Claws> keyword. Models with the <Blood Claws> keyword gain the Headstrong Berserkers rule."

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
I never said anything about people not playing what they want to play.

Really? What about when you said:

Type40 wrote:In SW, currently, you take plasma cannon long fangs,,, not hellblasters...
In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take bloodclaws not generic primaris assault.
In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take grey hunters, not generic intercessors.

Those are definitely implications of "if you like Intercessors, then you don't like the fluff".

I have only said that there "ARE PEOPLE WHO DO NOT WANT TO PLAY GENERIC COOKIE CUTTER PRIMARIS MARINES."

That's not what you said back there though.

Do I need to keep repeating that to you while you put words into my mouth about how I think "there is one true way to play X Y Z ." Read what i am writing and stop reading what you think I am writing. and again...

I did read. I just quoted you.

If you'd like to address those comments?

if you think this supplement is going to have 56ish unique datasheets like the SW codex had... then you clearly have never seen a SM supplement before.

Why do the Wolves need 56 unique datasheets? By my count, they had something like <20, not counting named characters. For what it's worth, the Ultramarines have 12 (I think) unique datasheets in theirs, including characters. So, it's safe to say the Wolves double that number - and, let's say two datasheets per side, two sides per page, so four datasheets per page, and that's... three extra pages? Let's say four extra pages to be sure.

Wow. A whole FOUR EXTRA PAGES OF DATASHEETS! Yeah, that's really not a big issue, especially when there's about that kind of difference between the Iron Hands and Ultramarines already. So yeah, it really wouldn't be an issue.

If you'd like to take the time to tell us what those 56 unique datasheets are, I'd be most welcome.

Stop trying to gatekeep by telling people who dont want to play with a generic boring army that they have to

No-one said that.

Stop making stuff up.

Are we playing the "take someones post out of context game" now ? I have repeatedly told you what I am annoyed about and you are repeatedly twisting words and taking posts out of context to try and say I am gatekeeping somehow.
You are the one who is telling me I shouldnt be worried about my faction litterally being amalgamated into another faction...

and why do you think CSM is any different from SW... its exactly the same. With HQ options that are different and non-comparable to SM ... I never seen a SM wolf priest ? there are unique units like wulfen and the basic units have completely different rule sets... how are you willfuilly ignoring that..

What do we want a game where litterally anything in power armor is just "space marine codex" honestly why not CSM ... Really name one thing that makes it different from SW other then primaris ? unique rules, unique units, and just a handful of overlap with SM when it comes to a few specific units.

yout ridiculous... you can think my advocation for MORE options and my personal dislike of primaris is gatrekeeping if you want. But honestly. What seems to be coming out of most of the people who are for this amalgamation on this thread is "why would they be in different codexes primaris marines are primaris marines and everyone just plays primaris marines right ?" and this GW pandering crap that everyone is touting is getting on my nerves. They have been serving up primaris for 2 years and that was fine. I am unhappy about my unique stuff getting squished into another faction because the new stuff they want to sell isnt all that unique. Do you really not get what I am saying ? are you really going to try and say that I am saying something else ? I am putting my stance in writing here, once again, quite clearly, are you going to take me out of context yet again ?

I doubt Fenris is the only glacial planet on the Imperium or the only one with nordic like culture.

For what it's worth, here's my breakdown on what are "unique" Space Wolves units.

Bolded all the named characters, but that puts at 27 unique units (many of which are only unique by virtue of being a special character, or because they have access to a Terminator squad leader - which shouldn't even be a uniquely Space Wolves feature, as the Iron Hands were known to do that as well (as well as the Salamanders and Black Templars, if I'm not mistaken?)

So, 27 unique units, at something like 3 per page (that's 1.5 on both sides, meaning one sheet of paper having three units on it) - a whopping... 9 pages. For contrast, the Ultramarines needed 4 for their 11 datasheets.

It's really not a big difference - nowhere near the difference between something like the Genestealer Cult codex and the Space Marines one. I don't even think it would cost much more.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Type40 wrote:Are we playing the "take someones post out of context game" now ?

There was no context in that quote.

I have repeatedly told you what I am annoyed about and you are repeatedly twisting words and taking posts out of context to try and say I am gatekeeping somehow.

Nothing you have said has ever addressed the quote comment I reposted.

You are the one who is telling me I shouldnt be worried about my faction litterally being amalgamated into another faction...

I didn't say you shouldn't be worried. I said you shouldn't be acting like it's already happened, which is how you're behaving.

There's a big difference.

With HQ options that are different and non-comparable to SM ... I never seen a SM wolf priest ? there are unique units like wulfen and the basic units have completely different rule sets... how are you willfuilly ignoring that..

I'm not. For your viewing pleasure (because I rightly assumed you wouldn't actually do a comprehensive list), I've made a list of the genuinely unique units in the SW book.

27. Not 35+. Wolf Priests are Chaplains with a single extra rule that can be added in via a Chapter wide keyword at the front of the supplement. The "Primaris Wolf Priest" is literally just a Primaris Chaplain, with Healing Balms. That's it - and it's not worth a full new datasheet for. Just add a "all <Space Wolves> <Chaplains> get the <Wolf Priest> keyword. All <Wolf Priests> get Healing Balms, described here..."

What do we want a game where litterally anything in power armor is just "space marine codex" honestly why not CSM ... Really name one thing that makes it different from SW other then primaris ? unique rules, unique units, and just a handful of overlap with SM when it comes to a few specific units.

Daemons, entirely unique daemon engines with no equivalents, a lack of Scout units, entirely unique and mechanically distinct HQs (not just basic HQ plus one rule).

yout ridiculous... you can think my advocation for MORE options and my personal dislike of primaris is gatrekeeping if you want.

Read what I said. That's not what I called you out for gatekeeping.

I called you out for gatekeeping for a completely different thing. If you're going to get twitchy about that, then have the courtesy to know *why* I called you out on it.

I am unhappy about my unique stuff getting squished into another faction because the new stuff they want to sell isnt all that unique.

But you're acting like that HAS happened, or that you KNOW it will. You don't.

You're making up things to complain about. At least wait until it happens.

Do you really not get what I am saying ?

No, I know exactly what you're trying to say. I'm telling you that what you're saying is ridiculous, because NOTHING'S HAPPENED YET.

Instead of saying "GW'S RUINED MY ARMY THEY'VE RUINED IT ALL", instead consider phrasing it more like "I'm WORRIED that GW will do XYZ, but I'm going to have to wait and see".

Instead of acting like GW have already done something (which they haven't), consider not acting like they've already done something?

are you going to take me out of context yet again ?

Yeah, that's what I'm wondering about you, too.

I also don't think Iron Priests are actually different to Techmarines outside just the pistol and Hammer.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I also don't think Iron Priests are actually different to Techmarines outside just the pistol and Hammer.

Yeah, it's one of the ones where I was being generous on. Realistically, the Hellfrost pistol could do with being made into a unique SW pistol (in much the same way that Frost Weapons can be made a unique SW melee weapon), and then just give ALL Techmarines access to a melee weapon/pistol combo (because really, why shouldn't a Salamanders Techmarine not be able to have a thunder hammer and hand flamer?)

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
For what it's worth, here's my breakdown on what are "unique" Space Wolves units.

Spoiler:

Arjac Rockfist
Bjorn
Canis Wolfborn
Harald Deathwolf
Iron Priest
Krom Dragongaze
Logan Grimnar
Logan Grimnar on Stormrider
Njal the Stormcaller (only needs one datasheet, which can include both Terminator or regular variants)
Ulrik the Slayer
Wolf Guard on Thunderwolf
Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf

Blood Claws
Grey Hunters

Lukas the Trickster
Murderfang
Wolf Scouts
Wulfen
Wulfen Dreadnought

Cyberwolves
Fenrisian Wolves
Skyclaws
Swiftclaws
Thunderwolf Cavalry

Stormfang
Stormwolf
Long Fangs

Bolded all the named characters, but that puts at 27 unique units (many of which are only unique by virtue of being a special character, or because they have access to a Terminator squad leader - which shouldn't even be a uniquely Space Wolves feature, as the Iron Hands were known to do that as well (as well as the Salamanders and Black Templars, if I'm not mistaken?)

So, 27 unique units, at something like 3 per page (that's 1.5 on both sides, meaning one sheet of paper having three units on it) - a whopping... 9 pages. For contrast, the Ultramarines needed 4 for their 11 datasheets.

It's really not a big difference - nowhere near the difference between something like the Genestealer Cult codex and the Space Marines one. I don't even think it would cost much more.

but custodes and harlequins are their own factions lol .

now saying that.
No, not a sing unit is only unique because it has access to terminator squad leader. Each one of those units, like the long fangs, has accesses to other unique rules as well. like the wolf banner for the grey hunters. +1 attack on the charge for blood claws, swiftclaws, skyclaws. rerolling 1s for the long fangs and etc ...

what makes CSM not SM
The abilities are different for a unit, the unit composition is different, the unit size is different and the wargear options are different.
every single one of these things is true for SW as well.
So stop trying to pretend there is anything different between doing this to CSM or SW.
why not put CSM in the SM codex and just say"you cant take primaris"
it would be exactly the same at that point.


p.s. you missed a bunch

• Arjac Rockfist
• Battle Leaders in Phobos Armour
• Bjorn the Fell-handed
• Canis Wolfborn
• Harald Deathwolf
• Iron Priest
• Krom Dragongaze
• Logan Grimnar
• Njal Stormcaller
• Njal Stormcaller in Runic Terminator Armour
• Primaris Battle Leader
• Primaris Rune Priest
• Primaris Wolf Lord
• Rune Priest
• Rune Priest in Terminator Armour
• Ulrik the Slayer
• Wolf Guard Battle Leader
• Wolf Guard Battle Leader in Terminator Armour
• Wolf Guard Battle Leader on Thunderwolf
• Wolf Lord
• Wolf Lord in Cataphractii Armour
• Wolf Lord in Gravis Armour
• Wolf Lord in Terminator Armour
• Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf
• Logan Grimnar on Stormrider

not a single HQ option is the same in SW,,, including the primaris ones.
p.s. there isnt a codex out there that currently uses the same datasheet for something with/without terminator armor and don't pretend like its anything different to deflate your numbers lol.

• Blood Claws
• Grey Hunters

you got the troops right

• Great Company Ancient
• Great Company Champion
• Lukas the Trickster
• Murderfang
• Venerable Dreadnought
• Wolf Guard
• Wolf Guard Cataphractii Terminators
• Wolf Guard Tartaros Terminators
• Wolf Guard Terminators
• Wolf Scouts
• Wulfen
• Wulfen Dreadnought

Oh you didnt notice the unique options for SW Ven Dreads now ?

• Cyberwolves
• Fenrisian Wolves
• Skyclaws
• Swiftclaw Attack Bikes
• Swiftclaws
• Thunderwolf Cavalry
• Wolf Scout Bikers

• Stormfang Gunship
• Stormwolf
• Long Fangs

My count is 49 datasheets... 49 datasheets that would need to be in a supplement ?
Do you really not understand why someone might be upset that their faction is getting amalgamated into the generic cookie cutter version of itself ?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
For what it's worth, here's my breakdown on what are "unique" Space Wolves units.

Most of which aren't really 'unique' outside of having slightly different options compared to their vanilla counterparts, and could easily be rolled into a single combined list.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I also don't think Iron Priests are actually different to Techmarines outside just the pistol and Hammer.

Yeah, it's one of the ones where I was being generous on. Realistically, the Hellfrost pistol could do with being made into a unique SW pistol (in much the same way that Frost Weapons can be made a unique SW melee weapon), and then just give ALL Techmarines access to a melee weapon/pistol combo (because really, why shouldn't a Salamanders Techmarine not be able to have a thunder hammer and hand flamer?)

oh and a warpsmith isnt different from a tech priest either. they do virtually the same thing XD... just different wargear options XD lol...
again why not CSM ? they can go in this new SM dex as well XD if its all the same anyways .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
For what it's worth, here's my breakdown on what are "unique" Space Wolves units.

Most of which aren't really 'unique' outside of having slightly different options compared to their vanilla counterparts, and could easily be rolled into a single combined list.

Spoiler:

Iron Priest - Techmarine
Wolf Guard on Thunderwolf
Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf

Blood Claws - Assault Squad (no jump packs) or combined entry with Crusader Squad
Grey Hunters - Tactical Squad (I don't really see why Tacs shouldn't be able to take pistol/CCW loadout too)

Wolf Scouts - Scout Squad
Wulfen - combined entry with Death Company and other similar units currently not represented)
Wulfen Dreadnought - Dreadnought with two CCW, combined with Furioso and Ironclad

Cyberwolves
Fenrisian Wolves
Skyclaws - Assault Squad
Swiftclaws - Bike Squad
Thunderwolf Cavalry

Stormfang - generic shooty flier entry combined with Stormtalon, Nephilim etc.
Stormwolf - generic transporty flier entry combined with Stormraven, Corvus
Long Fangs - Devastators (Oh wah! I can't take a plasma gun on the sergeant any more...)

ummm your forgetting that each one of those units has at least one unique rule that sets them apart from their vanillas... just like a CSM marine unit has ever so slightly different rules for each of their units as well... come on. why do we get to have it both ways ? If SW arnt different enough then niether are CSM .

Type40 wrote:but custodes and harlequins are their own factions lol .

Harlequins and Custodes don't share 50%+ of their units with other Codexes though.

If Space Wolves unique units were ONLY the units present in the Codex, you'd have a point. But they're not.

No, not a sing unit is only unique because it has access to terminator squad leader. Each one of those units, like the long fangs, has accesses to other unique rules as well. like the wolf banner for the grey hunters. +1 attack on the charge for blood claws, swiftclaws, skyclaws. rerolling 1s for the long fangs and etc ...

The single rule abilities like the Headstrong/Berserk Charge/Fire Discipline rules don't require a full datasheet - just tie those abilities into keywords on a single "Features of the Space Wolves" page in the supplement.
Something like:
X Space Wolf units gain the <Blood Claws> keyword. All <Blood Claws> gain ABC rule.
Y Space Wolf units gain the <Long Fangs> keyword. All <Long Fangs> gain DEF rule.
That way, you can even have Primaris units covered by Space Wolf unique rules (such as Eliminators becoming Long Fangs as well, or Assault Intercessors being Blood Claws too).

every single one of these things is true for SW as well.

The changes aren't as drastic as you say. The biggest one of all is the Grey Hunters, and that's about it for actual squads.

So stop trying to pretend there is anything different between doing this to CSM or SW.
why not put CSM in the SM codex and just say"you cant take primaris"
it would be exactly the same at that point.

It really wouldn't. Unlike regular Marines, Chaos have daemons, which have no equivalent. Chaos have cult troops, which have no equivalent. Chaos have cultists, no equivalent. Chaps have possessed, Greater Possessed, and various HQs with completely unique datasheets - no equivalents.
And, on the Marine side, there are plenty of vehicles with no comparison. Scouts, Centurions, Scout Bikers, Attack Bikers, Land Speeders - all with no easy fix.

p.s. you missed a bunch

I'll highlight and talk about the ones I "missed", because I have reasons for the lot.

• Arjac Rockfist
• Battle Leaders in Phobos Armour - Compare the profiles between them and regular Lieutenants. They're identical. No unique profile here.
• Bjorn the Fell-handed
• Canis Wolfborn
• Harald Deathwolf
• Iron Priest
• Krom Dragongaze
• Logan Grimnar
• Njal Stormcaller
• Njal Stormcaller in Runic Terminator Armour Bundled into one profile, seeing as they're barely different, but sure, if you feel that strongly.
• Primaris Battle Leader - Compare the profiles between them and regular Lieutenants. They're identical. No unique profile here.
• Primaris Rune Priest - Compare the profiles between them and regular Librarians. They're identical. No unique profile here.
• Primaris Wolf Lord - Compare the profiles between them and regular Captains. They're identical. No unique profile here.
• Rune Priest - Compare the profiles between them and regular Chaplains. Aside from Healing Balms (which can be easily keyworded in), they're identical. No unique profile here.
• Rune Priest in Terminator Armour - Compare the profiles between them and regular Terminator Chaplains. Aside from keywordable Healing Balms, they're identical. No unique profile here.
• Ulrik the Slayer
• Wolf Guard Battle Leader - Compare the profiles between them and regular Lieutenants. They're identical. No unique profile here.
• Wolf Guard Battle Leader in Terminator Armour - Generic Lieutenants should get Terminator Armour too. No unique profile here.
• Wolf Guard Battle Leader on Thunderwolf
• Wolf Lord - Compare the profiles between them and regular Captains. They're identical. No unique profile here.
• Wolf Lord in Cataphractii Armour- Compare the profiles between them and regular Captains. They're identical. No unique profile here.
• Wolf Lord in Gravis Armour- Compare the profiles between them and regular Captains. They're identical. No unique profile here.
• Wolf Lord in Terminator Armour - Compare the profiles between them and regular Captains. They're identical. No unique profile here.
• Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf
• Logan Grimnar on Stormrider
not a single HQ option is the same in SW,,, including the primaris ones.

A name change doesn't make them unique by any stretch of the imagination.

Aside from Healing Balms on the Chaplains (which is easily addable with keywords), there is no unique mechanical difference. I'm not saying SW don't have unique aspects. But if you want to convince people that you're truly that unique, don't lie.

p.s. there isnt a codex out there that currently uses the same datasheet for something with/without terminator armor and don't pretend like its anything different to deflate your numbers lol.

I only deflated my numbers by one, only in the case of Njal, and that's simply because in the case of Calgar, GW have given him three profiles, and then condensed them into one. But, one Njal doesn't change my statement by much - 28 it is.

• Great Company Ancient - Identical to a Company Ancient. Just remove the word 'great'.
• Great Company Champion - Identical to a Company Champion. Just remove the word 'great'.
• Lukas the Trickster
• Murderfang
• Venerable Dreadnought - Ah, one I did miss! Only because of the Wolf Claw, Axe and Shield options. Still, these could call be added in via a "Space Wolves Dreadnought Weapon" chart - so, no unique datasheet.
• Wolf Guard - Identical to Veterans. No datasheet.
• Wolf Guard Cataphractii Terminators - Identical to Cataphractii. No datasheet.
• Wolf Guard Tartaros Terminators - Identical to Tartaros Terminators. No datasheet.
• Wolf Guard Terminators - Only unique because they can mix and match weapons, which should be a feature on ALL Terminators, as described in lore such as Space Hulk and Herald of Oblivion. No unique datasheet.
• Wolf Scouts
• Wulfen
• Wulfen Dreadnought
Oh you didnt notice the unique options for SW Ven Dreads now ?

Yup, I'll admit I didn't see that one. But, it would be far simpler to add a "Space Wolves Dreadnought Weapons" chart than write a whole new datasheet.

• Cyberwolves
• Fenrisian Wolves
• Skyclaws
• Swiftclaw Attack Bikes - No difference from regular Attack Bikes aside from an easily keywordable extra rule. No datasheet.
• Swiftclaws
• Thunderwolf Cavalry
• Wolf Scout Bikers - No difference from regular Scout bikers. No datasheet.

My count is 49 datasheets... 49 datasheets that would need to be in a supplement ?

Considering that most of those units you mentioned are lazy reskins of existing ones, with nothing but a name change to set them apart, no, there's nowhere near 49 datasheets.

28, including a split Njal profile. My stance is unchanged.

Do you really not understand why someone might be upset that their faction is getting amalgamated into the generic cookie cutter version of itself ?

There's no such thing happening.

Define "being amalgamated into a generic cookie cutter version", using only the FACTS we know - ie, don't start crying about how units are going to get cut without knowing that. Assume that, for all intents and purposes, any army you currently can play, you will be able to do so. Now tell me what's changing.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Type40 wrote:
oh and a warpsmith isnt different from a tech priest either. they do virtually the same thing XD... just different wargear options XD lol...

A Warpsmith, maybe not.

But what about a Master of Possession? A Master of Executions? A Lord Discordant? A Daemon Prince? All entirely distinct.

space wolves don't have a stormwolf, wulfen, wulfen dreadnaughts, thunderwolves and etc ? those are as different as deamons, master of possessions, and etc. what is the the equivalent of those ?.. come on... why are you pretending that SW dont have unique and different units all of a sudden ?

p.s. custodes have landraiders and contemptors. 2/11 datasheets.
this means aproximately 20% of the custode codex is shared with SM.... just like SW ... guess the custodes should go in the SM codex as well huh ... if sharing 20% of your codex with SM makes them the same army ?

I am just saying, SW have more unique units that are not shared with SM or anyother chapters then custodes or harlequins have in total.

 Type40 wrote:
space wolves don't have a stormwolf, wulfen, wulfen dreadnaughts, thunderwolves and etc ? those are as different as deamons, master of possessions, and etc. what is the the equivalent of those ?.. come on... why are you pretending that SW dont have unique and different units all of a sudden ?

For someone complaining about not reading what you're putting, you're doing a lot of that with me.

I didn't say at all that Space Wolves don't have unique and different units. Only that the MAJORITY of their units are essentially identical to generic ones. The same cannot be said of Chaos.

p.s. custodes have landraiders and contemptors. 2/11 datasheets.
this means aproximately 20% of the custode codex is shared with SM.... just like SW ... guess the custodes should go in the SM codex as well huh ... if sharing 20% of your codex with SM makes them the same army ?

Sorry, what? You're saying that SW only share *20%* of their units with core Marines? That 80% of their whole army is unique? Yeah, no. No way.


Go and take a maths class. The Primaris ALONE would make up over 50%, not including the identical-in-all-but-name options like Wolf Guard, Wolf Lords and Great Company Ancients. There is no way that Space Wolves have anywhere near 50% unique units, let alone 80% like you claim.

I am just saying, SW have more unique units that are not shared with SM or anyother chapters then custodes or harlequins have in total.

Yes, they might have the most unique options *out of the other Chapters*. Yes, they might have more unique units than some armies have units entirely. But neither of those are necessarily justification for why they need their own unique Codex. After all, the Ultramarines in the previous version of the Codex had the most unique units out of all the other supplement choices, and had more unique units than some other armies had total - does that mean the Ultramarines should also have a unique Codex?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
space wolves don't have a stormwolf, wulfen, wulfen dreadnaughts, thunderwolves and etc ? those are as different as deamons, master of possessions, and etc. what is the the equivalent of those ?.. come on... why are you pretending that SW dont have unique and different units all of a sudden ?

For someone complaining about not reading what you're putting, you're doing a lot of that with me.

I didn't say at all that Space Wolves don't have unique and different units. Only that the MAJORITY of their units are essentially identical to generic ones. The same cannot be said of Chaos.

but the same CAN be said about chaos. Honestly, the majority of their units are essentially identical in role to SM or SW. As much as the SW at least. Why not ? What is a Beserker but a fancy assault marine ? what is a possesd but a different wulfen ?
Seriously ? whats the differences ?

p.s. custodes have landraiders and contemptors. 2/11 datasheets.
this means aproximately 20% of the custode codex is shared with SM.... just like SW ... guess the custodes should go in the SM codex as well huh ... if sharing 20% of your codex with SM makes them the same army ?

Sorry, what? You're saying that SW only share *20%* of their units with core Marines? That 80% of their whole army is unique? Yeah, no. No way.


Go and take a maths class. The Primaris ALONE would make up over 50%, not including the identical-in-all-but-name options like Wolf Guard, Wolf Lords and Great Company Ancients. There is no way that Space Wolves have anywhere near 50% unique units, let alone 80% like you claim.

I am just saying, SW have more unique units that are not shared with SM or anyother chapters then custodes or harlequins have in total.

Yes, they might have the most unique options *out of the other Chapters*. Yes, they might have more unique units than some armies have units entirely. But neither of those are necessarily justification for why they need their own unique Codex. After all, the Ultramarines in the previous version of the Codex had the most unique units out of all the other supplement choices, and had more unique units than some other armies had total - does that mean the Ultramarines should also have a unique Codex?

Why are we excluding named characters ? the supplement wont ? there are about 25 unique HQ options alone... I know you don't like the comparison between CSM and SW ... but realistically they are as different from SM as each other outside of primaris.

 Type40 wrote:
space wolves don't have a stormwolf, wulfen, wulfen dreadnaughts, thunderwolves and etc ? those are as different as deamons, master of possessions, and etc. what is the the equivalent of those ?.. come on... why are you pretending that SW dont have unique and different units all of a sudden ?

p.s. custodes have landraiders and contemptors. 2/11 datasheets.
this means aproximately 20% of the custode codex is shared with SM.... just like SW ... guess the custodes should go in the SM codex as well huh ... if sharing 20% of your codex with SM makes them the same army ?

I am just saying, SW have more unique units that are not shared with SM or anyother chapters then custodes or harlequins have in total.

You forgot the FW options there buddy. That bumps the Custodes up to being a lot more unique than Space Wolves so there ya go.
Also Space Wolves share well over half the units.

Type40 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
space wolves don't have a stormwolf, wulfen, wulfen dreadnaughts, thunderwolves and etc ? those are as different as deamons, master of possessions, and etc. what is the the equivalent of those ?.. come on... why are you pretending that SW dont have unique and different units all of a sudden ?

For someone complaining about not reading what you're putting, you're doing a lot of that with me.

I didn't say at all that Space Wolves don't have unique and different units. Only that the MAJORITY of their units are essentially identical to generic ones. The same cannot be said of Chaos.

but the same CAN be said about chaos.

Still wrong there.

Honestly, the majority of their units are essentially identical in role to SM or SW. As much as the SW at least.

The biggest factor being that CSM have no Primaris, but SW do.

Why not ? What is a Beserker but a fancy assault marine ?

Raptors are closer to Assault Marines. Khorne Berzerkers have less mobility, but more sheer rip-and-tear.

what is a possesd but a different wulfen ?

Well, for one, Wulfen ARE a Chapter unique thing. Possessed are available to ALL Chaos, not just one warband.

Secondly, Wulfen have actual weapon options, no? I don't believe Possessed have that. Possessed would LOVE to be what Wulfen are.

p.s. custodes have landraiders and contemptors. 2/11 datasheets.
this means aproximately 20% of the custode codex is shared with SM.... just like SW ... guess the custodes should go in the SM codex as well huh ... if sharing 20% of your codex with SM makes them the same army ?

Sorry, what? You're saying that SW only share *20%* of their units with core Marines? That 80% of their whole army is unique? Yeah, no. No way.


Go and take a maths class. The Primaris ALONE would make up over 50%, not including the identical-in-all-but-name options like Wolf Guard, Wolf Lords and Great Company Ancients. There is no way that Space Wolves have anywhere near 50% unique units, let alone 80% like you claim.

I am just saying, SW have more unique units that are not shared with SM or anyother chapters then custodes or harlequins have in total.

Yes, they might have the most unique options *out of the other Chapters*. Yes, they might have more unique units than some armies have units entirely. But neither of those are necessarily justification for why they need their own unique Codex. After all, the Ultramarines in the previous version of the Codex had the most unique units out of all the other supplement choices, and had more unique units than some other armies had total - does that mean the Ultramarines should also have a unique Codex?

Why are we excluding named characters ?

I didn't.

the supplement wont ? there are about 25 unique HQ options alone...

No, there aren't. Scroll up just a little bit higher in the thread, and you'll see that, even INCLUDING named characters, there are only 28 unique SW units (and that's being generous).

There's no way that SW have anywhere near 50% unique units, let alone the 80% you claimed.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
space wolves don't have a stormwolf, wulfen, wulfen dreadnaughts, thunderwolves and etc ? those are as different as deamons, master of possessions, and etc. what is the the equivalent of those ?.. come on... why are you pretending that SW dont have unique and different units all of a sudden ?

p.s. custodes have landraiders and contemptors. 2/11 datasheets.
this means aproximately 20% of the custode codex is shared with SM.... just like SW ... guess the custodes should go in the SM codex as well huh ... if sharing 20% of your codex with SM makes them the same army ?

I am just saying, SW have more unique units that are not shared with SM or anyother chapters then custodes or harlequins have in total.

You forgot the FW options there buddy. That bumps the Custodes up to being a lot more unique than Space Wolves so there ya go.
Also Space Wolves share well over half the units.

space wolves have 53 unique data sheets in their codex. Sure the custodes have their forgeworld stuff, but that isnt in their codex just like the forgeworld SM stuff wont be in the new SM dex. again,,, even with ALL the custodes forgeworld stuff. there are still 53 unique datasheets for space wolves and not even close to that many datasheets for custodes in total across its entire faction (including forgeworld).

 Type40 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
space wolves don't have a stormwolf, wulfen, wulfen dreadnaughts, thunderwolves and etc ? those are as different as deamons, master of possessions, and etc. what is the the equivalent of those ?.. come on... why are you pretending that SW dont have unique and different units all of a sudden ?

p.s. custodes have landraiders and contemptors. 2/11 datasheets.
this means aproximately 20% of the custode codex is shared with SM.... just like SW ... guess the custodes should go in the SM codex as well huh ... if sharing 20% of your codex with SM makes them the same army ?

I am just saying, SW have more unique units that are not shared with SM or anyother chapters then custodes or harlequins have in total.

You forgot the FW options there buddy. That bumps the Custodes up to being a lot more unique than Space Wolves so there ya go.
Also Space Wolves share well over half the units.

space wolves have 53 unique data sheets in their codex. Sure the custodes have their forgeworld stuff, but that isnt in their codex just like the forgeworld SM stuff wont be in the new SM dex. again,,, even with ALL the custodes forgeworld stuff. there are still 53 unique datasheets for space wolves and not even close to that many datasheets for custodes in total across its entire faction (including forgeworld).

Well Smudge proved you incorrect on the unique datasheet end so...

No, there aren't. Scroll up just a little bit higher in the thread, and you'll see that, even INCLUDING named characters, there are only 28 unique SW units (and that's being generous).

32 unique space wolf HQ datasheets currently available... are you sure your looking at the same thing as me ? These are different data sheets from every SM datasheet.
and dont give me the whole "well there virtually the same as X" thing because CSM also have HQs who are virtually the same as X too.

You are excluding certain things because they are "different in all but name" but you arn't realizing that BLOODCLAW units interact specifically with wolfgaurd battle leaders and other rule interactions that happen from other units because of these units existing.

Smudge hasnt proved me wrong. this is, objectively, 56 UNIQUE datasheets. whether you want to nitpick that some are too similar to be considered different doesnt change the fact that they are unique datasheets. You wouldnt argue that raptors are just assault marines or CSM are just tactical marines or a chaos chosen / lord are the same as leutenants and captains. So stop doing it here. I said 53 before because I amalgemated the attack bikes and a few other units together while counting.

HQ
• Arjac Rockfist
• Battle Leaders in Phobos Armour
• Bjorn the Fell-handed
• Canis Wolfborn
• Harald Deathwolf
• Iron Priest
• Krom Dragongaze
• Logan Grimnar
• Njal Stormcaller
• Njal Stormcaller in Runic Terminator Armour
• Primaris Battle Leader
• Primaris Rune Priest
• Primaris Wolf Lord
• Rune Priest
• Rune Priest in Terminator Armour
• Ulrik the Slayer
• Wolf Guard Battle Leader
• Wolf Guard Battle Leader in Terminator Armour
• Wolf Guard Battle Leader on Thunderwolf
• Wolf Lord
• Wolf Lord in Cataphractii Armour
• Wolf Lord in Gravis Armour
• Wolf Lord in Terminator Armour
• Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf
• Logan Grimnar on Stormrider
• Primaris Battle Leaders in Phobos Armour
• Primaris Wolf Priest
• Ragnar Blackmane
• Rune Priest in Phobos Armour
• Wolf Lord in Phobos Armour
• Wolf Priest
• Wolf Priest in Terminator Armour

troop
• Blood Claws
• Grey Hunters

elites

• Great Company Ancient
• Great Company Champion
• Lukas the Trickster
• Murderfang
• Venerable Dreadnought
• Wolf Guard
• Wolf Guard Cataphractii Terminators
• Wolf Guard Tartaros Terminators
• Wolf Guard Terminators
• Wolf Scouts
• Wulfen
• Wulfen Dreadnought

fast attack

• Cyberwolves
• Fenrisian Wolves
• Skyclaws
• Swiftclaw Attack Bikes
• Swiftclaws
• Thunderwolf Cavalry
• Wolf Scout Bikers

flyers

• Stormfang Gunship
• Stormwolf

Heavy

• Long Fangs

But right htere 56 datasheets that are unique in the spacewolf codex. some of these units are WAY WAY different from SM and are incomparable. Some are similar and are comparable... just like anything out of the CSM codex.

So stop trying to say they arnt. those datasheets literally exist and literally do not exist in the SM dex.

 Type40 wrote:
You are excluding certain things because they are "different in all but name" but you arn't realizing that BLOODCLAW units interact specifically with wolfgaurd battle leaders and other rule interactions that happen from other units because of these units existing.

A lot of those HQs could be solved by appending an existing datasheet with a line that says something like:

• Primaris Lieutenant - This unit is also known as a Primaris Battle Leader when used in a Space Wolf or Space Wolf successor detachment.

Thus any name only unique data sheets are not a point in your favor with regards to unique unit count.

Type40 wrote:32 unique space wolf HQ datasheets currently available...

That's not how you spell 28.

are you sure your looking at the same thing as me ? These are different data sheets from every SM datasheet.

Having a different name isn't the same thing as a different datasheet.

and dont give me the whole "well there virtually the same as X" thing because CSM also have HQs who are virtually the same as X too.

I didn't bring CSM into this. And, for what it's worth, yeah, I'd call their Chaos Lords and Sorcerers pretty much the same as Captains and Librarians.

But Masters of Possession? Master of Executions? Lord Discordant? Daemon Prince? Not a chance. And that's without getting into unique characters.

You are excluding certain things because they are "different in all but name" but you arn't realizing that BLOODCLAW units interact specifically with wolfgaurd battle leaders and other rule interactions that happen from other units because of these units existing.

Simple. I've been suggesting fixes for this, which you've conveniently been ignoring:

"In a Space Wolves army, all Sternguard Veteran, Vanguard Veteran, Company Veteran and units with the <Terminator> keyword gain the <Wolf Guard> keyword."
Simple. Look what I needed to change? Oh, yeah, just the name.

Smudge hasnt proved me wrong. this is, objectively, 56 UNIQUE datasheets.

Oh, cool, so if I changed the names on all the units in my Codex, I'd be entitled to a new Codex, because me changing the names "objectively" makes the datasheets different? So, if I just put "Herpy Derpy" in front of all my unit names, I'd be entitled to a Codex, because they're all unique datasheets objectively?

Nonsense. A change in a name is not worth a datasheet. Who cares if Space Wolves call their Captains "Wolf Lords" - that's not a new datasheet. What, should White Scars get a new Librarian datasheet called a Stormseer just because it's their special name for it?

whether you want to nitpick that some are too similar to be considered different doesnt change the fact that they are unique datasheets.

If all you've got to justify their being unique is "b-b-b-b-b-but the names are different, that's totally unique", then you've lost this argument.

You wouldnt argue that raptors are just assault marines or CSM are just tactical marines or a chaos chosen / lord are the same as leutenants and captains.

Actually, I pretty much would, if it weren't for the fact that they don't share a faction keyword. If Chaos Marines were an Imperial army, I'd ask them to be folded in too. But, guess what - they're not an Imperial army, and don't share anywhere near the same proportion of units.

So stop doing it here.

Again, I just said that, if CSM had more keywords in common and had access to Primaris, I wouldn't be opposed to the idea.

I said 53 before because I amalgemated the attack bikes and a few other units together while counting.

And you were still wrong.

<snipping a bunch of useless listing>
But right htere 56 datasheets that are unique in the spacewolf codex.

Again, odd way of spelling 28.

some of these units are WAY WAY different from SM and are incomparable. Some are similar and are comparable

Yeah, some of them are unique. And others are literally just a name swap. Don't you dare pretend otherwise.

The main different between Chaos and the Space Wolf situation - look at the faction keywords of a Tactical Marine, a Grey Hunter, and a Chaos Marine. If you look REALLY closely, you might see that the Tactical Marine and Grey Hunter share two out of the three faction keywords - the only different one being the last (which changes even within the same Space Marine codex). But Chaos? Well, you'll see no similar keywords.

Almost like one is an entirely different race alltogther, and the other is an offshoot of a larger collective.

So stop trying to say they arnt. those datasheets literally exist and literally do not exist in the SM dex.

A name change isn't a unique unit. Get over yourself.

Yeah Wolf Lords are NOT unique hahahaha

 Canadian 5th wrote:
A lot of those HQs could be solved by appending an existing datasheet with a line that says something like:

• Primaris Lieutenant - This unit is also known as a Primaris Battle Leader when used in a Space Wolf or Space Wolf successor detachment.

Oh, I've been suggesting something like this, but nope! That name on the top is Totally Special!

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
You are excluding certain things because they are "different in all but name" but you arn't realizing that BLOODCLAW units interact specifically with wolfgaurd battle leaders and other rule interactions that happen from other units because of these units existing.

A lot of those HQs could be solved by appending an existing datasheet with a line that says something like:

• Primaris Lieutenant - This unit is also known as a Primaris Battle Leader when used in a Space Wolf or Space Wolf successor detachment.

Thus any name only unique data sheets are not a point in your favor with regards to unique unit count.

they could be,,, but will they ,,, why bothering to create a supplement with 40+ datasheets or exceptions. i just dont think its going to happen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah Wolf Lords are NOT unique hahahaha

then niether are chaos lords.
You understand that right ? CSM can be included in the SM dex if this is the case. HAHAHAHAHAHA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
A lot of those HQs could be solved by appending an existing datasheet with a line that says something like:

• Primaris Lieutenant - This unit is also known as a Primaris Battle Leader when used in a Space Wolf or Space Wolf successor detachment.

Oh, I've been suggesting something like this, but nope! That name on the top is Totally Special!

ya WOLF GAURD do interact with other SW units in unique ways... unlike SM lieutenants. it is actually a thing. Bloodclaws arn't forced to charge when they are near them. i

 Type40 wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
You are excluding certain things because they are "different in all but name" but you arn't realizing that BLOODCLAW units interact specifically with wolfgaurd battle leaders and other rule interactions that happen from other units because of these units existing.

A lot of those HQs could be solved by appending an existing datasheet with a line that says something like:

• Primaris Lieutenant - This unit is also known as a Primaris Battle Leader when used in a Space Wolf or Space Wolf successor detachment.

Thus any name only unique data sheets are not a point in your favor with regards to unique unit count.

they could be,,, but will they ,,, why bothering to create a supplement with 40+ datasheets or exceptions. i just dont think its going to happen.

So, basically, you're acting like GW have already done the worst possible option without knowing in advance what they're doing? Is that right?

I've not got any objections to, you know, some trepidation, some worry - but when nearly all your comments in this thread have been "GW'S STRIPPING AWAY EVERYTHING FROM MY CODEX WHY CAN'T YOU SEE THAT" and having a problem when people tell you that you can't know that for sure, then I'm going to call you out on that.

Also, 40+ isn't how you spell 28.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
You are excluding certain things because they are "different in all but name" but you arn't realizing that BLOODCLAW units interact specifically with wolfgaurd battle leaders and other rule interactions that happen from other units because of these units existing.

A lot of those HQs could be solved by appending an existing datasheet with a line that says something like:

• Primaris Lieutenant - This unit is also known as a Primaris Battle Leader when used in a Space Wolf or Space Wolf successor detachment.

Thus any name only unique data sheets are not a point in your favor with regards to unique unit count.

they could be,,, but will they ,,, why bothering to create a supplement with 40+ datasheets or exceptions. i just dont think its going to happen.

So, basically, you're acting like GW have already done the worst possible option without knowing in advance what they're doing? Is that right?

I've not got any objections to, you know, some trepidation, some worry - but when nearly all your comments in this thread have been "GW'S STRIPPING AWAY EVERYTHING FROM MY CODEX WHY CAN'T YOU SEE THAT" and having a problem when people tell you that you can't know that for sure, then I'm going to call you out on that.

Also, 40+ isn't how you spell 28.

seriously ... how are you not seeing the list I keep posting... here it is again. 28 isn't how you spell counting this list I keep posting.

HQ
• Arjac Rockfist
• Battle Leaders in Phobos Armour
• Bjorn the Fell-handed
• Canis Wolfborn
• Harald Deathwolf
• Iron Priest
• Krom Dragongaze
• Logan Grimnar
• Njal Stormcaller
• Njal Stormcaller in Runic Terminator Armour
• Primaris Battle Leader
• Primaris Rune Priest
• Primaris Wolf Lord
• Rune Priest
• Rune Priest in Terminator Armour
• Ulrik the Slayer
• Wolf Guard Battle Leader
• Wolf Guard Battle Leader in Terminator Armour
• Wolf Guard Battle Leader on Thunderwolf
• Wolf Lord
• Wolf Lord in Cataphractii Armour
• Wolf Lord in Gravis Armour
• Wolf Lord in Terminator Armour
• Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf
• Logan Grimnar on Stormrider
• Primaris Battle Leaders in Phobos Armour
• Primaris Wolf Priest
• Ragnar Blackmane
• Rune Priest in Phobos Armour
• Wolf Lord in Phobos Armour
• Wolf Priest
• Wolf Priest in Terminator Armour

troop
• Blood Claws
• Grey Hunters

elites

• Great Company Ancient
• Great Company Champion
• Lukas the Trickster
• Murderfang
• Venerable Dreadnought
• Wolf Guard
• Wolf Guard Cataphractii Terminators
• Wolf Guard Tartaros Terminators
• Wolf Guard Terminators
• Wolf Scouts
• Wulfen
• Wulfen Dreadnought

fast attack

• Cyberwolves
• Fenrisian Wolves
• Skyclaws
• Swiftclaw Attack Bikes
• Swiftclaws
• Thunderwolf Cavalry
• Wolf Scout Bikers

flyers

• Stormfang Gunship
• Stormwolf

Heavy

• Long Fangs


Do you seriously not think thats 40+ datasheets/exceptions to core datasheets ? I am even saying 40+ because fine if we lose a few of the unique things...


Now fine. MAYBE they dont get rid of all the unique units... but then why bother giving SW access to all the SM stuff like tac marines and assault marines then, why not just leave it as a seperate codex ? it doesnt make sense for them to do this unless they are white breading the faction.

 Type40 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah Wolf Lords are NOT unique hahahaha

then niether are chaos lords.
You understand that right ? CSM can be included in the SM dex if this is the case. HAHAHAHAHAHA.

Um, you know that Slayer-Fan here is the BIGGEST advocate for merging CSM into the main Codex, right?

You've picked the wrong person to use that 'gotcha' on.

ya WOLF GAURD do interact with other SW units in unique ways... unlike SM lieutenants.

Only because of a single keyword interacting with a rule on the unit that's being affect, not even on the Wolf Guard itself.

Something which is fixed simply by having a single keyword added. That one keyword being added doesn't change that they're basically a default Lieutenant or Veteran. Hell, you could change the keyword on the Blood Claws to say "unless within 6" of a LIEUTENANT or VETERAN or TERMINATOR" instead, and it would have the same mechanical effects.

it is actually a thing. Bloodclaws arn't forced to charge when they are near them. i

That's literally only because Space Wolf lieutenants have a fancy name. That's it.

It's the equivalent of saying "Imperial Fists need a unique Captain datasheet, because Salamanders Captains don't give Imperial Fists an aura ability". They're not unique, they're a single keyword off being just like everyone else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Type40 wrote:

seriously ... how are you not seeing the list I keep posting... here it is again.

I'm seeing your list. Maybe you missed the part where I showed how utterly incorrect your logic is on it? Just scroll up, and you'll see it.

Do you seriously not think thats 40+ datasheets/exceptions to core datasheets ?

Nope, Definitely still only 28.

I am even saying 40+ because fine if we lose a few of the unique things...

40+ isn't 28. Your math looks a bit wrong.

Now fine. MAYBE they dont get rid of all the unique units... but then why bother giving SW access to all the SM stuff like tac marines and assault marines then, why not just leave it as a seperate codex ? it doesnt make sense for them to do this unless they are white breading the faction.

Because more than likely, GW might write in the SW supplement "you don't get access to these units" OR might do as I've been suggesting, and put in some kind of blanket ability on *insert list of squads that can have Terminator sergeants* and say they can have Terminator Sergeants.
There are myriads of ways that they can have SW draw units from the core Codex without forcing them to change their lists.

The reason they're not a separate Codex is because over 50% of the units in it will be shared, and because you can keep all the same mechanical functions without needing to reprint those same identical units in another book.
Because when nearly all your HQs are practically the same, practically all your vehicles are the same, nearly half of your range of units (Primaris) are the same, when you share a massive proportion of stratagem abilities and keywords - you're not exactly as distinct as you were.

If Space Wolves didn't have Primaris Marines, I'd fully support their independence. But they don't. And combined with all the other factors, they make more sense being supplemented.

We can probably look at the old Marine Index for hints how this will be handled.

 Crimson wrote:
We can probably look at the old Marine Index for hints how this will be handled.

Quite right.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah Wolf Lords are NOT unique hahahaha

then niether are chaos lords.
You understand that right ? CSM can be included in the SM dex if this is the case. HAHAHAHAHAHA.

Um, you know that Slayer-Fan here is the BIGGEST advocate for merging CSM into the main Codex, right?

You've picked the wrong person to use that 'gotcha' on.

ya WOLF GAURD do interact with other SW units in unique ways... unlike SM lieutenants.

Only because of a single keyword interacting with a rule on the unit that's being affect, not even on the Wolf Guard itself.

Something which is fixed simply by having a single keyword added. That one keyword being added doesn't change that they're basically a default Lieutenant or Veteran. Hell, you could change the keyword on the Blood Claws to say "unless within 6" of a LIEUTENANT or VETERAN or TERMINATOR" instead, and it would have the same mechanical effects.

it is actually a thing. Bloodclaws arn't forced to charge when they are near them. i

That's literally only because Space Wolf lieutenants have a fancy name. That's it.

It's the equivalent of saying "Imperial Fists need a unique Captain datasheet, because Salamanders Captains don't give Imperial Fists an aura ability". They're not unique, they're a single keyword off being just like everyone else.

Yes exactly, but it isnt just this ONE exception. In order for the faction to operate in the unique way it does now you are saying that they are going to make exception, after exception, after exception.
I know you keep posting how its an easy fix and another easy fix and another easy fix... but again, do you really think this supplement is going to be 40+ datasheets AND exceptions. Why would they do that instead of just having a seperate codex... rolling them, together can only mean white breading... otherwise it wouldnt make sense to do it .... because otherwise this supplement is just going to be a big book of exceptions and datasheets more confusing then anything they have ever published. an easy fix isnt easy when you have 40+ of them to make.

and if he thinks that CSM should be merged as well then he can advocate for that and make his points even more moot all he wants. I honestly am tired of people defending the decisions by GW that is making this game feel more like its always just the same factions playing against each other. I am tried of people seeming to defend the fact that GW just wants to sell its customers one range of models so they dont have to invest in other rules / model ranges. In 5 years when your generic spiky marines are fighting my generic marines with wolf pelts who are using the exact same rules and we have the exact same list, its going to be a boring game. But the game will be perfectly balanced and GW will release new models for "THE" list every few months and everyone will just play the same boring gak all the time.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Um, you know that Slayer-Fan here is the BIGGEST advocate for merging CSM into the main Codex, right?
You've picked the wrong person to use that 'gotcha' on.

Which is a questionable idea in and of itself...but hopefully CSM are going to get a similar embiggening/supplementing for their books. If nothing else, DG+TS should see Daemons added.

Overwhelmingly positive for a balance prospective.

 Type40 wrote:
Yes exactly, but it isnt just this ONE exception. In order for the faction to operate in the unique way it does now you are saying that they are going to make exception, after exception, after exception.

All of which fit onto one page.

You're making this out to be a lot harder than it is.

Let me demonstrate:

I know you keep posting how its an easy fix and another easy fix and another easy fix... but again, do you really think this supplement is going to be 40+ datasheets AND exceptions.

One page would cover the exceptions and new charts and rules like Healing Balms. And it only needs 28 datasheets (less, actually, because of my changes to what would be the core Techmarine, which would let the Iron Priest work fine), which is about 9 pages. Include a 10th for the exceptions page.

Yup, that's not exactly going to be an issue.

Why would they do that instead of just having a seperate codex... rolling them, together can only mean white breading...

You're obsessed with this idea that GW will HAVE to "white bread" them. Have you actually ever considered that they won't do that?

otherwise it wouldnt make sense to do it .... because otherwise this supplement is just going to be a big book of exceptions and datasheets more confusing then anything they have ever published. an easy fix isnt easy when you have 40+ of them to make.

If it goes by what I've described, it only needs to be 6 pages longer than what the Ultramarines have. That's *it*.

It'll be a sliver larger - much less of a difference between something like the gap between Space Marines and Genestealer Cults.

I honestly am tired of people defending the decisions by GW that is making this game feel more like its always just the same factions playing against each other. I am tried of people seeming to defend the fact that GW just wants to sell its customers one range of models so they dont have to invest in other rules / model ranges. In 5 years when your generic spiky marines are fighting my generic marines with wolf pelts who are using the exact same rules and we have the exact same list, its going to be a boring game. But the game will be perfectly balanced and GW will release new models for "THE" list every few months and everyone will just play the same boring gak all the time.

Sounds like you're someone who's convinced a certain way will play out, and has already decided, against actual evidence, what's going to happen.

I can't stop you being negative. But I very much can tell you that shouting about how GW are *definitely* going to do XYZ before seeing what happens isn't an argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Um, you know that Slayer-Fan here is the BIGGEST advocate for merging CSM into the main Codex, right?
You've picked the wrong person to use that 'gotcha' on.

Which is a questionable idea in and of itself...but hopefully CSM are going to get a similar embiggening/supplementing for their books. If nothing else, DG+TS should see Daemons added.

I'd like Chaos to get more. I'd like to see things like actual snipers, some more Daemonic units, a mix of new less corrupted units and heavily corrupted daemon infested ones.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Um, you know that Slayer-Fan here is the BIGGEST advocate for merging CSM into the main Codex, right?
You've picked the wrong person to use that 'gotcha' on.

Which is a questionable idea in and of itself...but hopefully CSM are going to get a similar embiggening/supplementing for their books. If nothing else, DG+TS should see Daemons added.

I'd like that too. Make the main CSM book about Renegade Chapters, and have supplements for Legions.... Fair is fair, and could mean Ironwarriors, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, etc, that aren't affiliated with a specific god might get special units themselves.

I think it should stop there though. Just for SM and CSM. Any more factions and it could get out of hand.....

I must admit, I’d be well in favour of a ‘Renegades’ supplement for C:SM that covers recent renegades. Just needs a line to the effect of “Replace <Imperium> and <Adeptus Astartes> with <Chaos>, <Heretic Astartes> and <Renegades>”

Then you can use C:CSM to cover the legions as they should be and actual chaosy stuff and combine them freely.

Would be awesome!

Cornishman wrote:
But being Headstrong Berserkers is a key thing that differentiates Blood Claws from regular Assault Marines. Simply renaming Assault Intercessors would lose this quintessential essence from the Blood Claw.

Chapter trait and/or specific stratagem will get you covered Cornishman.
Like maybe a nice thing rule saying you never get the benefit from cover, but you get to reroll any 1 in your charge roll, that would work great!

I Like how everyone was fine from 3.5 csm dex to 4 csm dex everything got consolidated and simplyfied , yet when their faction get's to the chopping Block ...

Not Online!!! wrote:
I Like how everyone was fine from 3.5 csm dex to 4 csm dex everything got consolidated and simplyfied , yet when their faction get's to the chopping Block ...

To be fair, I'd hazard that a decent chunk of people (myself included) just plain weren't around for that.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Um, you know that Slayer-Fan here is the BIGGEST advocate for merging CSM into the main Codex, right?
You've picked the wrong person to use that 'gotcha' on.

Which is a questionable idea in and of itself...but hopefully CSM are going to get a similar embiggening/supplementing for their books. If nothing else, DG+TS should see Daemons added.

I'm for three different mergings:
1. The 9 Legions get their own codex. Everyone has Vet stats at minimum outside Cultists (duh) and Havocs (having two attacks with that gun is hard). Reworked Legions obviously with everyone just getting 4 or so unique units. I had ideas already on those things in the Proposed Rules subforum and elsewhere.
2. Loyalist Scum, which would also cover Renegade Chapters + cover Huron. Your Chapter or Successor gets 4 or so unique units. Renegades lose those unique units for equivalents of more mutated/warp fethery.
3. Grey Knights and Deathwatch go into a combined Inquisition codex. I would want Sisters in there too, which some people threw a hissy fit about.

Initially I wanted Space Wolves separate but decided in the end they don't HAVE that much going for them in terms of uniqueness. Hell, their supposed Vets being Long Fangs sure as hell don't feel like Vets whatsoever.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I Like how everyone was fine from 3.5 csm dex to 4 csm dex everything got consolidated and simplyfied , yet when their faction get's to the chopping Block ...

To be fair, I'd hazard that a decent chunk of people (myself included) just plain weren't around for that.

I was it's also something that recently happened aswell with certain factions losing basically all options from 7th to 8th and when These Players dared to complain they were called whiners or told to "just wait".

Tbf i feel Like a propperly Handeled consolidation with the quitessential Units found in the supplements including the correct restrictions and options a better option then what happened to csm there or DE or fw armies ,but it Swings either Way really.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
3. Grey Knights and Deathwatch go into a combined Inquisition codex. I would want Sisters in there too, which some people threw a hissy fit about.

Sisters have 0 in common with the grey knights or the death watch, and they aren't related to the Inquisition, and unlike the GK and DW they are a full, general purpose army, not some extra-specialized forces.

As a Space Wolf player since 2nd edition i am wary of the changes but i think it's a bit misleading to say that we have 40+ unique entries.

Most of them can be easily covered by simple edits such as:
• access to a Space Wolf Wargear/Weapon list
• change their min/max unit size
• additional keyword that confers an appropriate rule (e.g. Assault Marines gain Blood Claw rules, Chaplain gains Apothecary abilities)

If i recall it's how most of it was done in 3rd edition.

Will this be a bit confusing? Perhaps, depends how it is pulled off.

Really (outwith named characters) there are only a handful of entries that i would consider truly unique to the Space Wolves and which couldn't be covered by the small edits to the Space Marine equivalent; those being:
• Cyberwolves
• Fenrisian Wolves
• Wulfen
• Thunderwolf Cavalry
• Stormfang Gunship
• Stormwolf

Pretty much everything else does have a Space Marine equivalent and could be handled with small edits.

Don't Grey Hunters, all versions of bloodclaws and WG have different stats, rules and weapon options that can't be taken by other marines. I have no expiriance playing against SW, but from what I think I can remember GH can't take heavy weapons and blood claws aren't tactical marines either.

SW scouts are elite, and their dreadnoughts run around with storm shields.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I Like how everyone was fine from 3.5 csm dex to 4 csm dex everything got consolidated and simplyfied , yet when their faction get's to the chopping Block ...

To be fair, I'd hazard that a decent chunk of people (myself included) just plain weren't around for that.

I was it's also something that recently happened aswell with certain factions losing basically all options from 7th to 8th and when These Players dared to complain they were called whiners or told to "just wait".

Tbf i feel Like a propperly Handeled consolidation with the quitessential Units found in the supplements including the correct restrictions and options a better option then what happened to csm there or DE or fw armies ,but it Swings either Way really.

Its basically what happened with Marines though.
I thought the 3.5 edition was the coolest thing in 40k. But very quickly, it was less "oh I've always been an X faction player, its cool I get some unique fluffy features" - and more "this is the most overpowered combo, I've totally always been EC, IW, whatever though, so its fine yeah?". This isn't surprising - and back then GW didn't even pretend to care about balance - but over time it grew obnoxious.
So... yeah, by 4th edition I was probably in the "bored of this, kill it with fire" camp.

Feel exactly the same as Marines. In principle I'm a big fan of the supplements - and sort of wish, even if the player numbers would be tiny, they would be rolled out for everyone. Or there were just a lot more rules per faction in each codex.
But now, if Guilliman were to accidentally sign the wrong piece of paper giving the Iron Hands the 2nd and 11th treatment, and they were squatted beyond even the Squats themselves, I'd be okay with it.
Bad luck for the literally 6 Iron Hands players out there pre the supplement, but so it goes.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
3. Grey Knights and Deathwatch go into a combined Inquisition codex. I would want Sisters in there too, which some people threw a hissy fit about.

Sisters have 0 in common with the grey knights or the death watch, and they aren't related to the Inquisition, and unlike the GK and DW they are a full, general purpose army, not some extra-specialized forces.

Well it worked for the Witch Hunters codex so you're apparently wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
Don't Grey Hunters, all versions of bloodclaws and WG have different stats, rules and weapon options that can't be taken by other marines. I have no expiriance playing against SW, but from what I think I can remember GH can't take heavy weapons and blood claws aren't tactical marines either.

SW scouts are elite, and their dreadnoughts run around with storm shields.

Space Wolves Scouts also suck and are apparently SUPER experienced but don't even have Vet stats.

They have been backing away from the chamber militant thing in every publication since the Witch Hunters Codex.

As for all those Space Wolf units, they will either get their own datasheet, have slight modifications made to their equivalent datasheet, or will disappear except as a chapter specific name.

Look at the Black Templars. Crusader squads have a datasheet while Sword Brethren are Vanguard Veterans without jump packs.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well it worked for the Witch Hunters codex so you're apparently wrong.

What do you mean “it worked”?

 alextroy wrote:
They have been backing away from the chamber militant thing in every publication since the Witch Hunters Codex.

As for all those Space Wolf units, they will either get their own datasheet, have slight modifications made to their equivalent datasheet, or will disappear except as a chapter specific name.

Look at the Black Templars. Crusader squads have a datasheet while Sword Brethren are Vanguard Veterans without jump packs.

Yeah.

As I posted previously, mechanically there were only about 5 options that made grey hunters different to tactical marines.

As the game is mechanics, only mechanics matter for distinguishing units from one another.

So you can EASILY represent the space wolf army with the marine codex, with different option lists rather than needing a whole data sheet for each unit.

But even then, as smudge has shown, you can still put ALL the unique data sheets into a supplement in a relatively small number of pages.

 Nevelon wrote:
Why is the general assumption that all the special units are going to get cut?

Before supplements, I could see this being an issue. Only so much space in the core book. But with supplements I suspect the BA/DA/SW are just going to be basic marines++. They will get all the options, plus their own.

And by moving to sharing the core codex, they never have to worry about missing out on the latest toys.

Until there's a line in their supplement that reads "______ do not use ______"....

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well it worked for the Witch Hunters codex so you're apparently wrong.

What do you mean “it worked”?

Well it was a codex with a good layout with a good amount of options. I'd call that a success for two "separate" forces existing in the same codex.

With SW, DA, BA in the main codex now do we also get access to the regular SM psychic awakening stuff? Would we get centurion and other similar units?

Jimbobbyish wrote:
With SW, DA, BA in the main codex now do we also get access to the regular SM psychic awakening stuff? Would we get centurion and other similar units?

Based on the current supplement design, I assume you'll have access to everything. Back when salamanders were first released in 3rd ed Armageddon, they had very limited access to anti grav, land speeders etc due to their homeworld. That's disappeared over the last 20 years but you can still choose to represent that voluntarily.

I can only see two options for the supplements:

1: as current supplements, choose anything plus here are some unique datasheets

2: here is a list of units you can or cannot use from the core book and here are some unique datasheets
2a - they can either remove some options and add unique ones, or they can allow everything and provide unique ones (ie wolves can take Tac squads AND grey hunters, or they replace tac squads with grey hunters)

Throwing a hissy fit about old marine units is a waste of time. You KNOW that old marines are going to be moved to legends eventually. You KNOW it's going to be all Primaris. Lone Wolves are just going to be ANOTHER Lt Model they make for SWs. Grey Hunters are just Intercessors. Want Blood Claws?



Oh look! You only need some paint and some space wolves bits from those SW sprues.

Now I want primaris TWC, and Primaris Wulfen, Primaris Fenrisian wolves (we all know we're they come from )

 Lance845 wrote:
Throwing a hissy fit about old marine units is a waste of time. You KNOW that old marines are going to be moved to legends eventually. You KNOW it's going to be all Primaris. Lone Wolves are just going to be ANOTHER Lt Model they make for SWs. Grey Hunters are just Intercessors. Want Blood Claws?

Spoiler:

Oh look! You only need some paint and some space wolves bits from those SW sprues.

100% this.

Just looking at both pictures it is clear which one is supposed to be generic and which one is Space Wolves. The difference and character does not come from rules, but from models.

That is one reason why I would be okay with consolidating outlier units with regular ones. Just put an upgrade sprue on it and you are good to go. Space Wolves should mean "Vikings in space" and not "That unit can take a CCW in addition to the regular loadout, thats why they are Space Wolves, that's their identity.".

 Lance845 wrote:

Oh look! You only need some paint and some space wolves bits from those SW sprues.

You are absolutely right! And this is a good thing. You get better looking Blood Claws with better rules. What's not to like?

 Crimson wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Oh look! You only need some paint and some space wolves bits from those SW sprues.

You are absolutely right! And this is a good thing. You get better looking Blood Claws with better rules. What's not to like?

they are not Blood Claws aka Space Wolves recruits
if the rules don't fit the narritive, there is no need for Special Chapter rules or even Supplements at all

 kodos wrote:

they are not Blood Claws aka Space Wolves recruits

Who says they aren't? These days the new Space Wolf recruits are Primaris, and if they continue their tradition of forming them into close combat oriented squads then these guys are it.

if the rules don't fit the narritive, there is no need for Special Chapter rules or even Supplements at all

How do the rules not fit?

 Crimson wrote:

How do the rules not fit?

So all assault Intercessors are Recruits now, as they all have the same rules?
So we can also remove Scouts from the Codex completely, just paint Intercessors with Scout markings and you have Scouts

Why are there even more than 3 different units for Marines anway, a melee unit, a ranged unit and a balanced unit, everything else can be done with paint shemes.
also we don't need any Supplements, White Scars are just painted white and done no further rules needed to make them any different

 kodos wrote:

So all assault Intercessors are Recruits now, as they all have the same rules?

Not all, but Space Wolf ones might be. Recruits and normal marines do not usually have a different profile any more, scouts have the same statline than standard marines, so whether someone is a newbie or not is just fluff.

So we can also remove Scouts from the Codex completely, just paint Intercessors with Scout markings and you have Scouts

No, you paint Infiltrators with scout markings! But seriously, in codex chapter scouts represent pre-black carapace stage, so as long as the fluff is that such recruits take part in battles having a separate not-power-armour-wearing marine profile makes sense. What the SW do with their pre-black-carapace recruits I don't know, it never made any sense that they wouldn't have them.

Why are there even more than 3 different units for Marines anway, a melee unit, a ranged unit and a balanced unit, everything else can be done with paint shemes.

You probably need a few more than three... But yeah, units where the difference is just fluff or some special rule or extra gear option that can be added via supplement don't need separate datasheets.

also we don't need any Supplements, White Scars are just painted white and done no further rules needed to make them any different

Yes, this would be ideal.

 kodos wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

How do the rules not fit?

So all assault Intercessors are Recruits now, as they all have the same rules?
So we can also remove Scouts from the Codex completely, just paint Intercessors with Scout markings and you have Scouts

Why are there even more than 3 different units for Marines anway, a melee unit, a ranged unit and a balanced unit, everything else can be done with paint shemes.
also we don't need any Supplements, White Scars are just painted white and done no further rules needed to make them any different

I don't think equating Assault Intersessors to Blood Claws (same equipment, only lacking the special Blood Claw rules which could be added with an additional keyword) is really the same as removing scouts or indeed every other unit in a Space marine list other than a melee unit, a ranged unit and a balanced unit as you are suggesting.

Assault Intersessors could easily have the Blood Claw keyword added to them in the Space Wolf supplement. Will they do this? I hope so.

When the Space Wolf Primaris units have been painted by the staff at GW the regular Intersessors have had the Grey Hunter markings and the Assault Intersessors have the Blood Claw markings, Bladeguard have the Wolf Guard markings, Aggressors have the Long Fang markings.

 kodos wrote:
So all assault Intercessors are Recruits now, as they all have the same rules?
So we can also remove Scouts from the Codex completely, just paint Intercessors with Scout markings and you have Scouts

Why are there even more than 3 different units for Marines anway, a melee unit, a ranged unit and a balanced unit, everything else can be done with paint shemes.
also we don't need any Supplements, White Scars are just painted white and done no further rules needed to make them any different

You put too much emphasis on actual crunch differences, when the system is simply not granular enough to accomodate for that.
A Scout got the same stats as a tactical Marine got the same as a Veteran got the same as a 10.000 year old Chaos Marine.

When everything has to be stuffed into numbers from 1 to 10 (or in case of BS and WS from 2 to 6), you will run into problems with plausability.

All you need to properly represent a typical army of a specific flavour is unit composition and a paint job (with some decals):
A Blood Angel army consists of marines with mostly jump packs and some painted in black armor.
A Scars army will have transporter and bikes
And so on. You don't need arbitrary rule differences that make no sense from a lore perspective (talking about all the wargear and units that are not available just because)

That's just a good argument to move to a D12 system.

Jimbobbyish wrote:With SW, DA, BA in the main codex now do we also get access to the regular SM psychic awakening stuff? Would we get centurion and other similar units?

If I were writing it, yes, I'd make that so. From GW's perspective, I'd also do it (after all, more chances to sell things like Centurions off to new people!).

Besides, it really doesn't make sense for those Chapters NOT to have things like Centurions, Thunderfire Cannons, and suchlike.

 kodos wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

How do the rules not fit?

So all assault Intercessors are Recruits now, as they all have the same rules?
So we can also remove Scouts from the Codex completely, just paint Intercessors with Scout markings and you have Scouts

Why are there even more than 3 different units for Marines anway, a melee unit, a ranged unit and a balanced unit, everything else can be done with paint shemes.
also we don't need any Supplements, White Scars are just painted white and done no further rules needed to make them any different

Boy, if only you had....let's see....FOUR units to choose from to represent your Wolf Scouts?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
it seems like, from GW's current images and marketing, a few things are happening:

1) Terminators might be sticking around for a while. At least, longer than oldmarines. There's a lot more terminators still present in art

2) Flyers are sticking around. Is there a primaris marine in there? Who knows! They're also the newest marine vehicle kits so that makes sense.

I would not be surprised if GW keeps around non-marine shaped iconic units (DA Knights, Land Speeders, Special Flyers, Thunderwolves and Wulfen and TWC) and creates a primaris wave where they recreate some of the iconic chapter units. Maybe a wave with Primaris Sang Guard, Primaris Ravenwing, Primaris GK Strikes, Primaris DW Vets.

That's peanuts for a Primaris wave. Keep everything else around, and that's basically the snowflake marine codexes sorted.

The funny part about Wolf Scouts is that the Vanguard Phobos stuff is an easier shift than people think.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The funny part about Wolf Scouts is that the Vanguard Phobos stuff is an easier shift than people think.

Yeah, they make perfect sense for the Space Wolf combat doctrine.

The two things I have taken from this entire thread is.

1.
People want this game to have as few factions as possible so it can feel like an out of the box non-customization board game where everyone has access to exactly the same stuff with very very few exceptions. (to me, this makes the game incredibly boring and bland, its not why I got into the game and its not a game I want to play,,, i'll just play Risk or something if thats what 40k becomes). Honestly, the appeal of the game to me is I was always playing against something different and unique and my own armies felt unique as well. Its weird to me that some people adamantly want this removed from the game ...

2.
Everything happening here are attempts by GW to get people to replace their army with their new line. And the overwhelming response to "I want my unique units" seems to be "buy primaris and convert them to look more wolfy" ... A: you are missing the point, i want mechanically unique units as well as asthetically. B: you keep being spoonfed to think it is ok that this company is coercing us to slowly rebuy the same things we have already bought (but slightly bigger and shinier) and scrap our old stuff... and somehow you guys are excited about this ? but i am not going to eat GWs gak with a grin while they invalidate 1000s of dollars and hours of mine whilst convincing me I "want" to replace my bikes with bigger bikes and my blood-claws with more generic bigger guys with chains swords, my grey hunters with bigger generic tactical marines...

Honestly, if its going to be a supplement that is the size of a codex outlining all the exceptions, changes and alternative datasheets then why make it a supplement at all. Either SW lose everything but a few units that make them unique OR they keep most things but GW has forced SW players to buy two codexes instead of one for a few pages of extra datasheets... great.

What do you guys all planing on doing with your old-marines anyways ? once you have an entire primaris army ? are you going to stare down at your worthless, non-playable plastic and smile while GW force feeds you primaris 2.0 to replace your primaris ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
p.s. "representing" my army with other units is not the same thing has having interesting unique mechanics and aesthetics of their own... I know some of you may argue that "there is not a lot unique about space wolves" but then I would say the same about and CSM faction... deamons=wulfen , special vehicles = storm fang, CSM = grey hunter = tac marine... so either we encourage a direction that white breads the entire game and make it no more customizable then an out of the box board game or we encourage people to have unique and interesting armies... I for one am not looking forward to the day when the only faction is "marines" and everyone plays the same list with the same units .... I guess its good for balance though.

 Type40 wrote:
The two things I have taken from this entire thread is.

1.
People want this game to have as few factions as possible so it can feel like an out of the box non-customization board game where everyone has access to exactly the same stuff with very very few exceptions. (to me, this makes the game incredibly boring and bland, its not why I got into the game and its not a game I want to play,,, i'll just play Risk or something if thats what 40k becomes). Honestly, the appeal of the game to me is I was always playing against something different and unique and my own armies felt unique as well. Its weird to me that some people adamantly want this removed from the game ...

2.
Everything happening here are attempts by GW to get people to replace their army with their new line. And the overwhelming response to "I want my unique units" seems to be "buy primaris and convert them to look more wolfy" ... A: you are missing the point, i want mechanically unique units as well as asthetically. B: you keep being spoonfed to think it is ok that this company is coercing us to slowly rebuy the same things we have already bought (but slightly bigger and shinier) and scrap our old stuff... and somehow you guys are excited about this ? but i am not going to eat GWs gak with a grin while they invalidate 1000s of dollars and hours of mine whilst convincing me I "want" to replace my bikes with bigger bikes and my blood-claws with more generic bigger guys with chains swords, my grey hunters with bigger generic tactical marines...

Honestly, if its going to be a supplement that is the size of a codex outlining all the exceptions, changes and alternative datasheets then why make it a supplement at all. Either SW lose everything but a few units that make them unique OR they keep most things but GW has forced SW players to buy two codexes instead of one for a few pages of extra datasheets... great.

What do you guys all planing on doing with your old-marines anyways ? once you have an entire primaris army ? are you going to stare down at your worthless, non-playable plastic and smile while GW force feeds you primaris 2.0 to replace your primaris ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
p.s. "representing" my army with other units is not the same thing has having interesting unique mechanics and aesthetics of their own... I know some of you may argue that "there is not a lot unique about space wolves" but then I would say the same about and CSM faction... deamons=wulfen , special vehicles = storm fang, CSM = grey hunter = tac marine... so either we encourage a direction that white breads the entire game and make it no more customizable then an out of the box board game or we encourage people to have unique and interesting armies... I for one am not looking forward to the day when the only faction is "marines" and everyone plays the same list with the same units .... I guess its good for balance though.

1. Yes
2. Yes

They want to destroy the diversity, erase the old line, and people are okay with it because they want to play chess, until it touch their faction.

The funny thing is, this "consolidation" that so many people desire will never actually fix the game for the better because the problem of the game have NOTHING to do with SW/DA/BA and the unique units/datasheets they have. I'm baffled that people on dakka still did not understood that to limit imbalance and bloat GW NEED to give some strict guideline on the number of relic, stratagem, warlord traits, etc. that they give to all factions and that the codex+supplement is going the EXACT OPPOSITE direction by giving one faction (SM) access to 10 times the number of strat/relics/warlordtraits/psyc power than other factions.

1 i dont play marines. I think its boring to play different colored power armor. You have fooled yourself into thinking that spacewolves were a whole other faction. They are not. They still have bolters and dreads and power weapons even if they call them frost. You are just playing more marines. The extra attention you got was unjustified and i am glad to see it go away.

2 of course gw is trying to get you to buy the new stuff. They are a company.

3 your feelings are noted. They also dont matter. This is happening wether you enjoy it or not. Get on board and play or sell your stuff and get out of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WhiteDog wrote:

1. Yes
2. Yes

They want to destroy the diversity, erase the old line, and people are okay with it because they want to play chess, until it touch their faction.

The funny thing is, this "consolidation" that so many people desire will never actually fix the game for the better because the problem of the game have NOTHING to do with SW/DA/BA and the unique units/datasheets they have. I'm baffled that people on dakka still did not understood that to limit imbalance and bloat GW NEED to give some strict guideline on the number of relic, stratagem, warlord traits, etc. that they give to all factions and that the codex+supplement is going the EXACT OPPOSITE direction by giving one faction (SM) access to 10 times the number of strat/relics/warlordtraits/psyc power than other factions.

The problems with the game have nothing to do with the volume of strats, relics, warlord traits available to a individual faction.

The problems with the game have to do with it's core mechanics. It's hilarious to see someone rage against the inevitable with primaris by saying they are "fixing" the wrong things with the game (nobody is calling this a fix. It's just what it is) and then pointing at other things that are not issues.

 Lance845 wrote:
1 i dont play marines. I think its boring to play different colored power armor. You have fooled yourself into thinking that spacewolves were a whole other faction. They are not. They still have bolters and dreads and power weapons even if they call them frost. You are just playing more marines. The extra attention you got was unjustified and i am glad to see it go away.

2 of course gw is trying to get you to buy the new stuff. They are a company.

3 your feelings are noted. They also dont matter. This is happening wether you enjoy it or not. Get on board and play or sell your stuff and get out of the game.

and I am the one being called gatekeepy lol.

You realize that removing SW/BA/DA isnt going to stop you from always playing different colored power armor. Those players arn't just going to sell there armies and buy a xenos army... All this means is you will get to play against even more generic marines... your point is moot. these changes make your problem worse not better... your are really silly if you cant see that.

Of course GW wants to sell me stuff, but shady business is shady business and its important to call it out. How would you feel if your electricity company released a new model of circuit breaker and told you that you had to buy this new one to continue getting electricity. Its not that the old cant' work anymore, or even that the old one isnt safe. The old one is perfectly fine. They just refused to send electricity to a house with the old one, so you better go replace that thing you have...
Giving people the option to have new fancy stuff and selling it to them is good buisness. Invalidating perfectly good stuff so you HAVE to buy the new stuff is shady. I am sorry you are ok with gak buisness practices, I feel bad for you, honestly, life will be expensive for you/everyone if we just let business get away with gak like this. (p.s. doing exactly this is illegal in some industries. )

Thanks and your feelings are noted too. Your condescending elitism also really just doesnt mater. If there is no where else to voice our concerns about a hobby then a hobby forum then I don't know where. The point is, you dont get to tell people they dont have the right to voice their opinions and perspective. You arn't special and you arn't the king of Dakka. So thanks for the advice, but i dont think I will listen to your silly order/decree ,,, your highness.

 Type40 wrote:
The two things I have taken from this entire thread is.

1.
People want this game to have as few factions as possible so it can feel like an out of the box non-customization board game where everyone has access to exactly the same stuff with very very few exceptions. (to me, this makes the game incredibly boring and bland, its not why I got into the game and its not a game I want to play,,, i'll just play Risk or something if thats what 40k becomes). Honestly, the appeal of the game to me is I was always playing against something different and unique and my own armies felt unique as well. Its weird to me that some people adamantly want this removed from the game ...

2.
Everything happening here are attempts by GW to get people to replace their army with their new line. And the overwhelming response to "I want my unique units" seems to be "buy primaris and convert them to look more wolfy" ... A: you are missing the point, i want mechanically unique units as well as asthetically. B: you keep being spoonfed to think it is ok that this company is coercing us to slowly rebuy the same things we have already bought (but slightly bigger and shinier) and scrap our old stuff... and somehow you guys are excited about this ? but i am not going to eat GWs gak with a grin while they invalidate 1000s of dollars and hours of mine whilst convincing me I "want" to replace my bikes with bigger bikes and my blood-claws with more generic bigger guys with chains swords, my grey hunters with bigger generic tactical marines...

Honestly, if its going to be a supplement that is the size of a codex outlining all the exceptions, changes and alternative datasheets then why make it a supplement at all. Either SW lose everything but a few units that make them unique OR they keep most things but GW has forced SW players to buy two codexes instead of one for a few pages of extra datasheets... great.

What do you guys all planing on doing with your old-marines anyways ? once you have an entire primaris army ? are you going to stare down at your worthless, non-playable plastic and smile while GW force feeds you primaris 2.0 to replace your primaris ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
p.s. "representing" my army with other units is not the same thing has having interesting unique mechanics and aesthetics of their own... I know some of you may argue that "there is not a lot unique about space wolves" but then I would say the same about and CSM faction... deamons=wulfen , special vehicles = storm fang, CSM = grey hunter = tac marine... so either we encourage a direction that white breads the entire game and make it no more customizable then an out of the box board game or we encourage people to have unique and interesting armies... I for one am not looking forward to the day when the only faction is "marines" and everyone plays the same list with the same units .... I guess its good for balance though.

If that’s all you took, then their are other light bulbs in the box I’d choose to put in my dining room light fixture.

 Type40 wrote:
You realize that removing SW/BA/DA isnt going to stop you from always playing different colored power armor. Those players arn't just going to sell there armies and buy a xenos army...

When people that already have a space marine army decide to start collecting another army, they are WAY less likely to decide to start another differently colored space marine army now. Some still will, sure, but most will settle for an army other than SM loyalist.

WhiteDog wrote:
1. Yes
2. Yes

They want to destroy the diversity, erase the old line, and people are okay with it because they want to play chess, until it touch their faction.

The funny thing is, this "consolidation" that so many people desire will never actually fix the game for the better because the problem of the game have NOTHING to do with SW/DA/BA and the unique units/datasheets they have. I'm baffled that people on dakka still did not understood that to limit imbalance and bloat GW NEED to give some strict guideline on the number of relic, stratagem, warlord traits, etc. that they give to all factions and that the codex+supplement is going the EXACT OPPOSITE direction by giving one faction (SM) access to 10 times the number of strat/relics/warlordtraits/psyc power than other factions.

Hey, @Auticus, it's an example of that thing nobody does, honest! :p

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
You realize that removing SW/BA/DA isnt going to stop you from always playing different colored power armor. Those players arn't just going to sell there armies and buy a xenos army...

When people that already have a space marine army decide to start collecting another army, they are WAY less likely to decide to start another differently colored space marine army now. Some still will, sure, but most will settle for an army other than SM loyalist.

Why wouldn't they ?

What all of a sudden people are going to go "hmmm, i really like the look of space wolves and how they play,,, i am not going to do that though because I already have ultramarines,,,, guess i ll get eldar even though they dont play like i want or look good to me"
the people who want a different colored marine army, will still get a different colored marine army.... all this means is, they might not bother at all because the colors and aesthetics are arbitrary now.
You guys are fooling yourselves.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well it was a codex with a good layout with a good amount of options. I'd call that a success for two "separate" forces existing in the same codex.

It meant those two forces were much smaller than they could have been.
And now you want to put four (4) separate forces in the same codex. That's twice as much as two (2).

WhiteDog wrote:
They want to destroy the diversity, erase the old line, and people are okay with it because they want to play chess, until it touch their faction.

I don't want to play chess, I want GW to stop making Space Wolves artificially different, so they can create more actually unique T'au auxiliary and actually expend the setting with real variety instead of "space marines with a theme".

 Lance845 wrote:
1 i dont play marines. I think its boring to play different colored power armor. You have fooled yourself into thinking that spacewolves were a whole other faction. They are not. They still have bolters and dreads and power weapons even if they call them frost. You are just playing more marines. The extra attention you got was unjustified and i am glad to see it go away.

And then non marines players act suprised that marine players don't feel sympathetic to their attention plight. Marine players could say that all eldar or even all xeno are more or less the same, Swarm of 200 orcs or 200 nids, what is the difference right?

 Type40 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
1 i dont play marines. I think its boring to play different colored power armor. You have fooled yourself into thinking that spacewolves were a whole other faction. They are not. They still have bolters and dreads and power weapons even if they call them frost. You are just playing more marines. The extra attention you got was unjustified and i am glad to see it go away.

2 of course gw is trying to get you to buy the new stuff. They are a company.

3 your feelings are noted. They also dont matter. This is happening wether you enjoy it or not. Get on board and play or sell your stuff and get out of the game.

and I am the one being called gatekeepy lol.

You realize that removing SW/BA/DA isnt going to stop you from always playing different colored power armor. Those players arn't just going to sell there armies and buy a xenos army... All this means is you will get to play against even more generic marines... your point is moot. these changes make your problem worse not better... your are really silly if you cant see that.

Of course GW wants to sell me stuff, but shady business is shady business and its important to call it out. How would you feel if your electricity company released a new model of circuit breaker and told you that you had to buy this new one to continue getting electricity. Its not that the old cant' work anymore, or even that the old one isnt safe. The old one is perfectly fine. They just refused to send electricity to a house with the old one, so you better go replace that thing you have...
Giving people the option to have new fancy stuff and selling it to them is good buisness. Invalidating perfectly good stuff so you HAVE to buy the new stuff is shady. I am sorry you are ok with gak buisness practices, I feel bad for you, honestly, life will be expensive for you/everyone if we just let business get away with gak like this. (p.s. doing exactly this is illegal in some industries. )

Thanks and your feelings are noted too. Your condescending elitism also really just doesnt mater. If there is no where else to voice our concerns about a hobby then a hobby forum then I don't know where. The point is, you dont get to tell people they dont have the right to voice their opinions and perspective. You arn't special and you arn't the king of Dakka. So thanks for the advice, but i dont think I will listen to your silly order/decree ,,, your highness.

I am not being a gatekeeper. I don't care what you do. I am just laying out the facts of the situation. Be upset if you want. SW are going to be part of a singular SM dex with a supplement book.

I am not worried about which armies I face. I am worried about which armies I play as. I don't care if I fight 4 different colors of SM. I care that I am not playing them myself.

This isn't shady business. Old marines are old kits and they have nowhere else to go with them except a line refresh. Just new models won't necessarily sell new models. So it needs to be replacement units.

I didn't tell you you don't have a right to be here being whiny about the inevitable. You ABSOLUTELY have the right. Be here. Whine. I said it was pointless. And it is. Your being upset will accomplish nothing and get you nothing.

 Type40 wrote:
What all of a sudden people are going to go "hmmm, i really like the look of space wolves and how they play,,, i am not going to do that though because I already have ultramarines,,,, guess i ll get eldar even though they dont play like i want or look good to me"

It's going to be more.
"hmmm, i really like the look of space wolves and how they play, but I can already play just like that with my current chapter if I declare them space wolves successors/count-as, and I also like the look of eldars, and they give me a completely different play-style. Well let's try Eldar".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
And then non marines players act suprised that marine players don't feel sympathetic to their attention plight. Marine players could say that all eldar or even all xeno are more or less the same, Swarm of 200 orcs or 200 nids, what is the difference right?

Karol, I am not an ork player and I am not a tyranid player either and really, really a swarm of orks or nids are two different armies that require different codex to be properly represented, while marines with a different theme and paintjob don't require a different codex to be properly represented.

the_scotsman wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

How do the rules not fit?

So all assault Intercessors are Recruits now, as they all have the same rules?
So we can also remove Scouts from the Codex completely, just paint Intercessors with Scout markings and you have Scouts

Why are there even more than 3 different units for Marines anway, a melee unit, a ranged unit and a balanced unit, everything else can be done with paint shemes.
also we don't need any Supplements, White Scars are just painted white and done no further rules needed to make them any different

Boy, if only you had....let's see....FOUR units to choose from to represent your Wolf Scouts?.

you know, I am not worried about Wolf Scouts but Blood Claws, as being Grey Hunters without Bolters just does not fit
the one thing that make Space Wolves unique is that their Recruits wear Power Armour and are weaker than the Veterans, using the same unit with different markings and there is nothing that is left. (and no special flayer or units with strange background are rather new and might vansih again, but this is the one thing that that stayed)

a_typical_hero wrote:

You put too much emphasis on actual crunch differences, when the system is simply not granular enough to accomodate for that.
A Scout got the same stats as a tactical Marine got the same as a Veteran got the same as a 10.000 year old Chaos Marine.

When everything has to be stuffed into numbers from 1 to 10 (or in case of BS and WS from 2 to 6), you will run into problems with plausability.

if Marines would be all 5 +2Wound, while humans are all 3s with 1Wound there would be enough room to make a difference between a human, a human veteran, a marine recruit and a marine veteran

 Crimson wrote:
But seriously, in codex chapter scouts represent pre-black carapace stage, so as long as the fluff is that such recruits take part in battles having a separate not-power-armour-wearing marine profile makes sense. What the SW do with their pre-black-carapace recruits I don't know, it never made any sense that they wouldn't have them.

Wolves put them in Power Armour and let them fight, that is why Blood Claws are more like normal humans in Power Armour
and unless something like pre-black-carapace Primaris do not exist, it should not be different for them

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
What all of a sudden people are going to go "hmmm, i really like the look of space wolves and how they play,,, i am not going to do that though because I already have ultramarines,,,, guess i ll get eldar even though they dont play like i want or look good to me"

It's going to be more.
"hmmm, i really like the look of space wolves and how they play, but I can already play just like that with my current chapter if I declare them space wolves successors/count-as, and I also like the look of eldars, and they give me a completely different play-style. Well let's try Eldar".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
And then non marines players act suprised that marine players don't feel sympathetic to their attention plight. Marine players could say that all eldar or even all xeno are more or less the same, Swarm of 200 orcs or 200 nids, what is the difference right?

Karol, I am not an ork player and I am not a tyranid player either and really, really a swarm of orks or nids are two different armies that require different codex to be properly represented, while marines with a different theme and paintjob don't require a different codex to be properly represented.

That person is already buying eldar... are you kidding me.
The only difference is before they had to buy a codex and a few extra units and said "counts as space wolves"
now they need to buy a supplement and a few extra units and say "counts as space wolves"

think about what you are saying.

Making the factions more generic does nothing to stop people from playing the factions they want, it just makes the overall game more bland, repetitive and uninspired. Have fun playing against the exact same list of generic primaris marines always. at least with the separate factions there was the options to not play the bland stuff.

 Type40 wrote:
That person is already buying eldar... are you kidding me.

Well that's where we disagree but okay.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
That person is already buying eldar... are you kidding me.

Well that's where we disagree but okay.

Here let me show you the justification again

The only difference is before they had to buy a codex and a few extra units and said "counts as space wolves"
now they need to buy a supplement and a few extra units and say "counts as space wolves"

think about what you are saying.

Making the factions more generic does nothing to stop people from playing the factions they want, it just makes the overall game more bland, repetitive and uninspired. Have fun playing against the exact same list of generic primaris marines always. at least with the separate factions there was the options to not play the bland stuff.

disagreeing with the first statement and not acknowledging why I disagreed with you is a bit silly dont you think XD lol .

 Type40 wrote:
The only difference is before they had to buy a codex and a few extra units and said "counts as space wolves"
now they need to buy a supplement and a few extra units and say "counts as space wolves"

They don't need to buy a few extra model, it's all primaris now, and they share the same models. Also, none of their current models aren't available to space wolves now.
Also the rules are closer, and you don't even need to buy the supplement to play space wolves.

I think the implementation of the snowflake supplements is key. Sure they'll have the traits, relics and faction specific units that are unlike any normal datasheet (like Wulfen), but when it comes to say Grey Hunters, ruleswise where they land on the:

1) Use Tac marines datasheet
2) Use Tac marines datasheet, with the following differences
3) Here's a Grey Hunters datasheet
4) Here's a Grey Hunters datasheet and you cannot use the Tac Marines datasheet

is important to many people. Whether they feel the faction is marines in another colour, or has enough to differentiate it from the normal lists. Even if those changes are mechanically superficial, presentation matters.

Personally i hope they go down the "Space Wolves cannot use the following datasheets from the main Codex" method, with things like Grey Hunters getting a datasheet in the supplement. It solves the problem they're trying to fix (1000 FAQ's every time a new Marine unit appears) and keeps the snowflake feeling. Love it or hate it, rules bloat is a thing to stay, it always will be there for GW games.

Long term, all chapters will get Primaris chapter specific units, once GW have finished the replacement of the cross faction oldmarines. Which is nearly there tbh.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Karol, I am not an ork player and I am not a tyranid player either and really, really a swarm of orks or nids are two different armies that require different codex to be properly represented, while marines with a different theme and paintjob don't require a different codex to be properly represented.

I am no expert on things space marine. But from what I remember about 8th ed. No one but RG run assault centurions, no one but DW run SS/SB vets, no one but DA run plasmacide bike with speeders, in fact I don't think anyone but Da run speeders and they run at least two different ones. SW stuff had different gear, different rules and different weapon options.

Orcs and nids on the other hand, were . here are my 100+ bullet sponges , my key buffers and HQs. Eldar players till the nerf litteraly played an army that mixed all 3 factions as one and let them double dip on stratagems, rules etc As someone else in this thread said, what is the difference between chaos and sm, if we assume that a tac is the same as a squad o GH? This means that a csm squad is equal to a tac squad. And even the argument that csm stuff is weaker then marine stuff won't stand here, because SW stuff ain't stellar either. Those TWC or WG units, are much better then CSM chosen .

That is why I am saying that saying that marines are the same is an argument I do not understand. GH and BC are substentialy different, and core of an army, then what other marines have. Running Raven wing talons spam with speeders support is something no other marine army can do, because they have non of the units or replacment that is close rules wise.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well it was a codex with a good layout with a good amount of options. I'd call that a success for two "separate" forces existing in the same codex.

It meant those two forces were much smaller than they could have been.
And now you want to put four (4) separate forces in the same codex. That's twice as much as two (2).

WhiteDog wrote:
They want to destroy the diversity, erase the old line, and people are okay with it because they want to play chess, until it touch their faction.

I don't want to play chess, I want GW to stop making Space Wolves artificially different, so they can create more actually unique T'au auxiliary and actually expend the setting with real variety instead of "space marines with a theme".

But SW/BA/DA didn't prevent GW from expanding Tau. This is a stupid idea.
What is preventing GW from expanding xenos and other factions is that they release 30 SM kit a year.

The problems with the game have nothing to do with the volume of strats, relics, warlord traits available to a individual faction.

You are wrong, it's clearly the rules and not the number of datasheets that create imbalance. The lack of template for strata/relics/etc. create huge imbalance between factions. SM got from low tier to top tier competitive faction how ? New CT/rules, new relics, new strata, new psyc disciplines, new warlord traits, all things that were in their codex and supplements. They did not need any new units, nor did it need any change in core rules.
And what did GW do to balance out the game after SM 2.0 codex ? They released PA, i.e. books that offer more strat, more relics, more rules and disciplines to all factions. Yes : every time a faction get X rules, the only way to balance out the game is to give the same number/quality of rules to all factions.

WhiteDog wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well it was a codex with a good layout with a good amount of options. I'd call that a success for two "separate" forces existing in the same codex.

It meant those two forces were much smaller than they could have been.
And now you want to put four (4) separate forces in the same codex. That's twice as much as two (2).

WhiteDog wrote:
They want to destroy the diversity, erase the old line, and people are okay with it because they want to play chess, until it touch their faction.

I don't want to play chess, I want GW to stop making Space Wolves artificially different, so they can create more actually unique T'au auxiliary and actually expend the setting with real variety instead of "space marines with a theme".

But SW/BA/DA didn't prevent GW from expanding Tau. This is a stupid idea.
What is preventing GW from expanding xenos and other factions is that they release 30 SM kit a year.

The problems with the game have nothing to do with the volume of strats, relics, warlord traits available to a individual faction.

You are wrong, it's clearly the rules and not the datasheets that create imbalance. The lack of template for strata/relics/etc. create huge imbalance between factions. SM got from low tier to top tier competitive faction how ? New CT/rules, new relics, new strata, new psyc disciplines, new warlord traits, all things that were in their codex and supplements. They did not need any new units, nor did it need any change in core rules.

Well yes, NOW that's 30 basic marine kits per year. Before 8th, that was 30 Space Wolf/Dark Angel/Deathwatch/Grey Knight/Blood Angel/whatever kits a year.

GW released the entire marine range, made it roughly twice as large as every other factions for good measure.

Then they released supplementary models for all the special snowflake chapters.

Then they rereleased the entire marine range, still twice as large, with the new rhino chassis.

Then they released more special snowflake chapters and plastics for the existing ones like the SW box, BA box, DA boxes, GK, etc

Then they made updates for many of the original models, and released a bunch of new super-special "elite" variants like vendreads, veterans, sternguard, and finecast characters.

Then why, it was time for an edition of expanding the special snowflake marines again! Gotta make sure they've got special snowflake veteran models like ravenguard, wulfen, knights, etc!

Oh ho ho, but now it's time for the primaris relaunch! Redesign everything again to be slightly taller!

Now we're rolling into the edition of "Time to get all the special snowflakes in primaris."

The existence of the special snowflakes is ABSOLUTELY the reason why GW never stops releasing all marines all the time. We go edition by edition, rotating between GW paying attention to basic bitch marines and then special snowflake marines.

the_scotsman wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well it was a codex with a good layout with a good amount of options. I'd call that a success for two "separate" forces existing in the same codex.

It meant those two forces were much smaller than they could have been.
And now you want to put four (4) separate forces in the same codex. That's twice as much as two (2).

WhiteDog wrote:
They want to destroy the diversity, erase the old line, and people are okay with it because they want to play chess, until it touch their faction.

I don't want to play chess, I want GW to stop making Space Wolves artificially different, so they can create more actually unique T'au auxiliary and actually expend the setting with real variety instead of "space marines with a theme".

But SW/BA/DA didn't prevent GW from expanding Tau. This is a stupid idea.
What is preventing GW from expanding xenos and other factions is that they release 30 SM kit a year.

The problems with the game have nothing to do with the volume of strats, relics, warlord traits available to a individual faction.

You are wrong, it's clearly the rules and not the datasheets that create imbalance. The lack of template for strata/relics/etc. create huge imbalance between factions. SM got from low tier to top tier competitive faction how ? New CT/rules, new relics, new strata, new psyc disciplines, new warlord traits, all things that were in their codex and supplements. They did not need any new units, nor did it need any change in core rules.

Well yes, NOW that's 30 basic marine kits per year. Before 8th, that was 30 Space Wolf/Dark Angel/Deathwatch/Grey Knight/Blood Angel/whatever kits a year.

GW released the entire marine range, made it roughly twice as large as every other factions for good measure.

Then they released supplementary models for all the special snowflake chapters.

Then they rereleased the entire marine range, still twice as large, with the new rhino chassis.

Then they released more special snowflake chapters and plastics for the existing ones like the SW box, BA box, DA boxes, GK, etc

Then they made updates for many of the original models, and released a bunch of new super-special "elite" variants like vendreads, veterans, sternguard, and finecast characters.

Then why, it was time for an edition of expanding the special snowflake marines again! Gotta make sure they've got special snowflake veteran models like ravenguard, wulfen, knights, etc!

Oh ho ho, but now it's time for the primaris relaunch! Redesign everything again to be slightly taller!

Now we're rolling into the edition of "Time to get all the special snowflakes in primaris."

The existence of the special snowflakes is ABSOLUTELY the reason why GW never stops releasing all marines all the time. We go edition by edition, rotating between GW paying attention to basic bitch marines and then special snowflake marines.

Damned lies. Pityful. Like SW/DA/BA had, at any point in time, as much kit as SM are getting since primaris came in the fray. DA/SW/BA got very few kits, and those kits were released throughout many years.

Individually, absolutely not. But together over the course of an edition, they absolutely did.

This is what GW does: They either choose to revamp a section of the existing marine line, or they choose to release 1-2 new kits for each special snowflake marine line and usually for good measure tack on another one into the codex release schedule, just to make everyone wait for yet more marine BS to slog through before they get updated for each new edition. For 9th it'll probably be something like

-Primaris Sang Guard and Dante+Sanguinor
-Primaris Blood Claws/Grey Hunters and Logan
-Primaris Ravenwing and Sammael
-Primaris DW vets and Artemis
-Primaris GK Strikes/Interceptors and Brother Captain

That's probably your standard "special snowflake edition" kit load.

Wonder how long it'll take to get through all the DW/SW/DA/BA/GK/DW crap this time round before a faction that was actually screwed over by 9th gets any attention like Eldar Dark Eldar Nids or GSC. I had a real fun time with my GSC playing in the index for a year and a fething half.

Anyone complaining about lore being the primary justification for units should be asking why Space Wolves are either a) havent been hunted to extiction for allowing the wolfen to exist or b) turned traitor because the imperium is hunting them because the wolfen exist.

They are non codex compliant and allow chaos mutants to march around with them. Its not that the SW are not loyal themselves. Its that the unforgiving bureaucracy of the imperium should have turned on them by now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well it was a codex with a good layout with a good amount of options. I'd call that a success for two "separate" forces existing in the same codex.

It meant those two forces were much smaller than they could have been.
And now you want to put four (4) separate forces in the same codex. That's twice as much as two (2).

WhiteDog wrote:
They want to destroy the diversity, erase the old line, and people are okay with it because they want to play chess, until it touch their faction.

I don't want to play chess, I want GW to stop making Space Wolves artificially different, so they can create more actually unique T'au auxiliary and actually expend the setting with real variety instead of "space marines with a theme".

But SW/BA/DA didn't prevent GW from expanding Tau. This is a stupid idea.
What is preventing GW from expanding xenos and other factions is that they release 30 SM kit a year.

The problems with the game have nothing to do with the volume of strats, relics, warlord traits available to a individual faction.

You are wrong, it's clearly the rules and not the number of datasheets that create imbalance. The lack of template for strata/relics/etc. create huge imbalance between factions. SM got from low tier to top tier competitive faction how ? New CT/rules, new relics, new strata, new psyc disciplines, new warlord traits, all things that were in their codex and supplements. They did not need any new units, nor did it need any change in core rules.
And what did GW do to balance out the game after SM 2.0 codex ? They released PA, i.e. books that offer more strat, more relics, more rules and disciplines to all factions. Yes : every time a faction get X rules, the only way to balance out the game is to give the same number/quality of rules to all factions.

I didnt say it was the number of datasheets. I said it was the core rules. The basic game itself is the problem. Not the number of iterations of a individual mechanic one faction gets. Any faction based issues are an afterthought to the real problems with the game.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
The only difference is before they had to buy a codex and a few extra units and said "counts as space wolves"
now they need to buy a supplement and a few extra units and say "counts as space wolves"

They don't need to buy a few extra model, it's all primaris now, and they share the same models. Also, none of their current models aren't available to space wolves now.
Also the rules are closer, and you don't even need to buy the supplement to play space wolves.

Are you seriously not reading what you are writing ?

We already know there will be a space wolf supplement... so ya they ll need the supplement.
And fine, if they player doesnt want to buy some wulfen and maybe SW dread they ll just stick with their primaris...

The same player would have
bought the SW codex, kept their primaris v.s. bought the SW supplement and kept their primaris.

Stop making all of this circular. Your point doesnt stand.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Anyone complaining about lore being the primary justification for units should be asking why Space Wolves are either a) havent been hunted to extiction for allowing the wolfen to exist or b) turned traitor because the imperium is hunting them because the wolfen exist.

They are non codex compliant and allow chaos mutants to march around with them. Its not that the SW are not loyal themselves. Its that the unforgiving bureaucracy of the imperium should have turned on them by now.

Not being codex compliant and allowing mutants to exist is preciously why the space wolves, lore wise, are a different faction then SM... also they arnt hunted down because the emperor decreed that the space wolves would always be loyal to the custodes in 30k ... this stands. The wolves have always gotten away with more in the lore, psykers, wulfin, not being codex compliant and that all had a lore justification.


p.s. why do people think space wolves existing means other factions arnt getting attention.... the last 2 years has been primaris palooza. space wolves got one named character... woopdiecrap ,,,, the rest has been white bread boring bland generic space marine crap coming out of our azzoozzas .the existence of the other marine factions isnt whats stoping other factions from getting attention. if anything the only reason DA/BA/SW got anything more then the other none marine factions is because GW wants these three to go white bread to increase sales of generic, uninspired, bland units... less work for them, more sales for them.

It's disturbing how gleeful some of you are at the idea of various armies losing their identity.

no space marine armies had much of an identity to begin with. Their most famous chapters, ultramarines, are perhaps some of the dullest characters in the 40k universe. Attested to by the fact that the Space Marine books are extremely difficult to write. Its an extremely one-dimensional trope.

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
no space marine armies had much of an identity to begin with. Their most famous chapters, ultramarines, are perhaps some of the dullest characters in the 40k universe. Attested to by the fact that the Space Marine books are extremely difficult to write. Its an extremely one-dimensional trope.

This is subjective.
Where I agree, subjectively, that ultramarines are dull and boring. DA/BA/SW are rife with unique identity, stories, atmosphere and lore. This is a part of why its ridiculous that these factions are being integrated to work exactly like ultramarines... SW arnt codex complient, they dont operate in the same way, the only similarity is they share most of the same gear (yes, primaris count as gear) . the eldar all use similar gear, lets consolidate them, why arn't gene stealer cults and IG in the same codex ? I feel like alot of people here have never actually played a match with or picke up a SW codex... The faction is as different as CSM, GK, DG, TS is to SM ... again, other then primaris.

Its insanity that a SW player would look at all the primis stuff they have been getting access to and the. Say "we have only gotten 2 characters. Woop de doo!"

 Type40 wrote:

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
no space marine armies had much of an identity to begin with. Their most famous chapters, ultramarines, are perhaps some of the dullest characters in the 40k universe. Attested to by the fact that the Space Marine books are extremely difficult to write. Its an extremely one-dimensional trope.

This is subjective.
Where I agree, subjectively, that ultramarines are dull and boring. DA/BA/SW are rife with unique identity, stories, atmosphere and lore. This is a part of why its ridiculous that these factions are being integrated to work exactly like ultramarines... SW arnt codex complient, they dont operate in the same way, the only similarity is they share most of the same gear (yes, primaris count as gear) . the eldar all use similar gear, lets consolidate them, why arn't gene stealer cults and IG in the same codex ? I feel like alot of people here have never actually played a match with or picke up a SW codex... The faction is as different as CSM, GK, DG, TS is to SM ... again, other then primaris.

What Eldar and Dark Eldar units share gear?

 Lance845 wrote:
Its insanity that a SW player would look at all the primis stuff they have been getting access to and the. Say "we have only gotten 2 characters. Woop de doo!"

Most SW players don't want to play Terran Fursuiters, they want to play Space Wolves.

or, why not just release a single codex. with 10 units

entery 1
small
troopers

entery 2
big
troopers

entry 3
Armored unit

Entry 4
Sniper unit

Entry 5
multiple fast vehicle unit

Entry 6
flying jumppack style unit

Entry 7
Armored fast vehicle

entry 8
heavy armored vehicle

entry 9
Flyer

entry 10
Lord of war.


there, we can have 10 datasheets. you can apply them to any models with any asthetics. We fix the balancing issues. Your lore is what ever lore you want because everything is "counts as " one of these 10 datasheets.

Why not, 10 datasheets could easily represent everything in the game. Why bother making more then one codex at all. Nothing will ever be unbalanced, everyone will have access to exactly the same stuff. No one will recieve an special attention. That's it. And then you buy what ever models you want and simply pretend you are playing a unique army.

Why not this ? if SW are just like everything else whilst having similar differences between CSM and SM ... then why not just amalgamate everything into one, mechanically bland little set of rules ? just like any out of the box board game?

 Type40 wrote:

Anyone complaining about lore being the primary justification for units should be asking why Space Wolves are either a) havent been hunted to extiction for allowing the wolfen to exist or b) turned traitor because the imperium is hunting them because the wolfen exist.

They are non codex compliant and allow chaos mutants to march around with them. Its not that the SW are not loyal themselves. Its that the unforgiving bureaucracy of the imperium should have turned on them by now.

Not being codex compliant and allowing mutants to exist is preciously why the space wolves, lore wise, are a different faction then SM... also they arnt hunted down because the emperor decreed that the space wolves would always be loyal to the custodes in 30k ... this stands. The wolves have always gotten away with more in the lore, psykers, wulfin, not being codex compliant and that all had a lore justification.


p.s. why do people think space wolves existing means other factions arnt getting attention.... the last 2 years has been primaris palooza. space wolves got one named character... woopdiecrap ,,,, the rest has been white bread boring bland generic space marine crap coming out of our azzoozzas .the existence of the other marine factions isnt whats stoping other factions from getting attention. if anything the only reason DA/BA/SW got anything more then the other none marine factions is because GW wants these three to go white bread to increase sales of generic, uninspired, bland units... less work for them, more sales for them.

Bull gak. The cursed founding was a cluster feth for all chapters and they all got hunted down and purged or sent on suicide missions. The Wulfen are what pushes them over the edge into enemy of the imperium territory.

You still get librarians you call rune priests. You still get to call your things sky claws, and blood claws, and whatever else. Hell, chances are GW is going to released Primaris Wulfen for you down the line. Because it's that or squatting them. Your lore is in tact. Your chapter tactics are in tact even though they go by a common name now. You have literally nothing to complain about.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
no space marine armies had much of an identity to begin with. Their most famous chapters, ultramarines, are perhaps some of the dullest characters in the 40k universe. Attested to by the fact that the Space Marine books are extremely difficult to write. Its an extremely one-dimensional trope.

This is subjective.
Where I agree, subjectively, that ultramarines are dull and boring. DA/BA/SW are rife with unique identity, stories, atmosphere and lore. This is a part of why its ridiculous that these factions are being integrated to work exactly like ultramarines... SW arnt codex complient, they dont operate in the same way, the only similarity is they share most of the same gear (yes, primaris count as gear) . the eldar all use similar gear, lets consolidate them, why arn't gene stealer cults and IG in the same codex ? I feel like alot of people here have never actually played a match with or picke up a SW codex... The faction is as different as CSM, GK, DG, TS is to SM ... again, other then primaris.

What Eldar and Dark Eldar units share gear?

fusion, power weapons, haywire, some shurriken technology.
dark eldar add poison and call it something else. Also, alot of similar armor.

sure there are alot of differences, but they share some things.

 Type40 wrote:

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
no space marine armies had much of an identity to begin with. Their most famous chapters, ultramarines, are perhaps some of the dullest characters in the 40k universe. Attested to by the fact that the Space Marine books are extremely difficult to write. Its an extremely one-dimensional trope.

This is subjective.
Where I agree, subjectively, that ultramarines are dull and boring. DA/BA/SW are rife with unique identity, stories, atmosphere and lore. This is a part of why its ridiculous that these factions are being integrated to work exactly like ultramarines... SW arnt codex complient, they dont operate in the same way, the only similarity is they share most of the same gear (yes, primaris count as gear) . the eldar all use similar gear, lets consolidate them, why arn't gene stealer cults and IG in the same codex ? I feel like alot of people here have never actually played a match with or picke up a SW codex... The faction is as different as CSM, GK, DG, TS is to SM ... again, other then primaris.

You know, it's weird. My Evil Sunz orks could not work more differently than Goff orks - goffs are this huge green tide of melee-oriented footsloggers, with a hierarchy of boyz, nobz, meganobz, all the way up to big daddy ghazghkull thrakka, whereas Evil Sunz are a crazy mad max fury road army where your status is basically determined by whether you can afford your own vehicle, and if you can, how big that vehicle is.

In game, we are differentiated by

1) a clan trait
2) one warlord trait
3) one relic
4) one stratagem
5) one psychic power

And honestly? That's about what you need, because I've got this big army range, and I can go ahead and take Deffkilla wartrikes, buggies, trukks, wagons, etc and make a wonderful mad max ork army, while my buddy who plays goffs can use boyz, nobz, meganobz, waagh banners, ghazghkull, and walkers and we have two armies that are much, much, MUCH more distinct than an army with

Ultramarines tacticals, marneus calgar, chief librarian tigurius, tactical terminators, venerable dreadnoughts, marine bikers, assault marines, and devastators

and an army with

Space wolves grey hunters, logan grimnar, Njal Stormcaller, wolf guard terminators, space wolf dreadnought, swiftclaws, skyclaws, and long fangs

Even assuming (which I in no way believe) every single space wolf named character, datasheet and kit was IMMEDIATELY squatted and you were left only with the unique rules to differentiate yourself, you get:

1) a chapter trait
2) 6 warlord traits
3) A dozen odd stratagems? Honestly don't know. More than 1 for sure.
4) 6 relics
6) 6 psychic powers
7) Sagas?
8) Unique superdoctrine

If you look at all that, and you STILL go "but muh army isn't UNIQUE enough, they're basically just ultramarines wearing baby blue and who have replaced the stick up their butt with a tasteful furry tail plug!!!" then....I dunno, maybe your army wasn't really that distinct from UM in the first place? Maybe it was all just units with EXTREMELY MINOR wargear distinctions and stat distinctions shuffled around and given new names?

I don't think any of the Dark Eldar units have Shuriken stuff, and actually the only units to really share Power Weapons are HQ units. So you're wrong again!

 Type40 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
no space marine armies had much of an identity to begin with. Their most famous chapters, ultramarines, are perhaps some of the dullest characters in the 40k universe. Attested to by the fact that the Space Marine books are extremely difficult to write. Its an extremely one-dimensional trope.

This is subjective.
Where I agree, subjectively, that ultramarines are dull and boring. DA/BA/SW are rife with unique identity, stories, atmosphere and lore. This is a part of why its ridiculous that these factions are being integrated to work exactly like ultramarines... SW arnt codex complient, they dont operate in the same way, the only similarity is they share most of the same gear (yes, primaris count as gear) . the eldar all use similar gear, lets consolidate them, why arn't gene stealer cults and IG in the same codex ? I feel like alot of people here have never actually played a match with or picke up a SW codex... The faction is as different as CSM, GK, DG, TS is to SM ... again, other then primaris.

What Eldar and Dark Eldar units share gear?

fusion, power weapons, haywire, some shurriken technology.
dark eldar add poison and call it something else. Also, alot of similar armor.

sure there are alot of differences, but they share some things.

Not counting Relic gear from unique characters...

They share Plasma Grenades, for Ranged Weapons.
They share Power Swords, for Melee Weapons.

That's it. That's literally it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's disturbing how gleeful some of you are at the idea of various armies losing their identity.

I find it sad how many people seem to think that this identity is made of insignificant technical minutiae.

 Type40 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
no space marine armies had much of an identity to begin with. Their most famous chapters, ultramarines, are perhaps some of the dullest characters in the 40k universe. Attested to by the fact that the Space Marine books are extremely difficult to write. Its an extremely one-dimensional trope.

This is subjective.
Where I agree, subjectively, that ultramarines are dull and boring. DA/BA/SW are rife with unique identity, stories, atmosphere and lore. This is a part of why its ridiculous that these factions are being integrated to work exactly like ultramarines... SW arnt codex complient, they dont operate in the same way, the only similarity is they share most of the same gear (yes, primaris count as gear) . the eldar all use similar gear, lets consolidate them, why arn't gene stealer cults and IG in the same codex ? I feel like alot of people here have never actually played a match with or picke up a SW codex... The faction is as different as CSM, GK, DG, TS is to SM ... again, other then primaris.

What Eldar and Dark Eldar units share gear?

fusion, power weapons, haywire, some shurriken technology.
dark eldar add poison and call it something else. Also, alot of similar armor.

sure there are alot of differences, but they share some things.

Uh...no? Dark Eldar do not have any fusion guns.

Eldar have no haywire guns.

Dark eldar have no shuriken guns.

Dark eldar poison weaponry is a totally different weapon than eldar shuriken weaponry.

Eldar shuriken gun: Assault 2 12" range strength 4 Ap- AP-3 on a 6.

Dark Eldar poison gun: Rapid Fire 1 24" range Strenth 1 Ap- always wounds non-vehicles on a 4+.

If those are "basically the same" then every single troop choice unit in 40k is "basically the same."

You've got "alot of similar armor" by which you mean...um...there are units with 5+, 4+ and 3+ armor saves in both the eldar and dark eldar codexes? So...Tau and Space Marines have "basically the same armor"...I mean, crisis suits and stealth suits have 3+, that's basically the same right?

 Type40 wrote:
or, why not just release a single codex. with 10 units

entery 1
small
troopers

entery 2
big
troopers

entry 3
Armored unit

Entry 4
Sniper unit

Entry 5
multiple fast vehicle unit

Entry 6
flying jumppack style unit

Entry 7
Armored fast vehicle

entry 8
heavy armored vehicle

entry 9
Flyer

entry 10
Lord of war.


there, we can have 10 datasheets. you can apply them to any models with any asthetics. We fix the balancing issues. Your lore is what ever lore you want because everything is "counts as " one of these 10 datasheets.

Why not, 10 datasheets could easily represent everything in the game. Why bother making more then one codex at all. Nothing will ever be unbalanced, everyone will have access to exactly the same stuff. No one will recieve an special attention. That's it. And then you buy what ever models you want and simply pretend you are playing a unique army.

Why not this ? if SW are just like everything else whilst having similar differences between CSM and SM ... then why not just amalgamate everything into one, mechanically bland little set of rules ? just like any out of the box board game?

Chapter Marines are Chapter Marines and need to be treated as such. Deal with it.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

Anyone complaining about lore being the primary justification for units should be asking why Space Wolves are either a) havent been hunted to extiction for allowing the wolfen to exist or b) turned traitor because the imperium is hunting them because the wolfen exist.

They are non codex compliant and allow chaos mutants to march around with them. Its not that the SW are not loyal themselves. Its that the unforgiving bureaucracy of the imperium should have turned on them by now.

Not being codex compliant and allowing mutants to exist is preciously why the space wolves, lore wise, are a different faction then SM... also they arnt hunted down because the emperor decreed that the space wolves would always be loyal to the custodes in 30k ... this stands. The wolves have always gotten away with more in the lore, psykers, wulfin, not being codex compliant and that all had a lore justification.


p.s. why do people think space wolves existing means other factions arnt getting attention.... the last 2 years has been primaris palooza. space wolves got one named character... woopdiecrap ,,,, the rest has been white bread boring bland generic space marine crap coming out of our azzoozzas .the existence of the other marine factions isnt whats stoping other factions from getting attention. if anything the only reason DA/BA/SW got anything more then the other none marine factions is because GW wants these three to go white bread to increase sales of generic, uninspired, bland units... less work for them, more sales for them.

Bull gak. The cursed founding was a cluster feth for all chapters and they all got hunted down and purged or sent on suicide missions. The Wulfen are what pushes them over the edge into enemy of the imperium territory.

You still get librarians you call rune priests. You still get to call your things sky claws, and blood claws, and whatever else. Hell, chances are GW is going to released Primaris Wulfen for you down the line. Because it's that or squatting them. Your lore is in tact. Your chapter tactics are in tact even though they go by a common name now. You have literally nothing to complain about.

Ok,,, let me try and make it clear to you...
I don't want to just call tac marines grey hunters. I dont want to just call assault marines blood claws. I want the unique units that i got into the game to play not work exactly like, play exactly like, or be exactly like some other army I didnt choose to get into the game to play. I like that my army was different (even if the differences seem trivial to you for what ever reason). I like that my army felt unique and felt like i wasn't just playing bland white bread. I liked my army having a unique, mechanics based, identity.

If you seriously dont understand the appeal of that, then look a few posts up and check out my proposal for a 10 datasheet game.

Its not that hard to understand. this amalgamation doesnt solve any problems with the game. It just removes from the game.whilst giving GW an excuse to do less work for more proffit.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
no space marine armies had much of an identity to begin with. Their most famous chapters, ultramarines, are perhaps some of the dullest characters in the 40k universe. Attested to by the fact that the Space Marine books are extremely difficult to write. Its an extremely one-dimensional trope.

This is subjective.
Where I agree, subjectively, that ultramarines are dull and boring. DA/BA/SW are rife with unique identity, stories, atmosphere and lore. This is a part of why its ridiculous that these factions are being integrated to work exactly like ultramarines... SW arnt codex complient, they dont operate in the same way, the only similarity is they share most of the same gear (yes, primaris count as gear) . the eldar all use similar gear, lets consolidate them, why arn't gene stealer cults and IG in the same codex ? I feel like alot of people here have never actually played a match with or picke up a SW codex... The faction is as different as CSM, GK, DG, TS is to SM ... again, other then primaris.

What Eldar and Dark Eldar units share gear?

fusion, power weapons, haywire, some shurriken technology.
dark eldar add poison and call it something else. Also, alot of similar armor.

sure there are alot of differences, but they share some things.

Not counting Relic gear from unique characters...

They share Plasma Grenades, for Ranged Weapons.
They share Power Swords, for Melee Weapons.

That's it. That's literally it.

Eldar share more pieces of wargear with space marines than dark eldar.

Missile Launcher, Fusion Gun, Power Sword, Melta Bomb.

 Type40 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

Anyone complaining about lore being the primary justification for units should be asking why Space Wolves are either a) havent been hunted to extiction for allowing the wolfen to exist or b) turned traitor because the imperium is hunting them because the wolfen exist.

They are non codex compliant and allow chaos mutants to march around with them. Its not that the SW are not loyal themselves. Its that the unforgiving bureaucracy of the imperium should have turned on them by now.

Not being codex compliant and allowing mutants to exist is preciously why the space wolves, lore wise, are a different faction then SM... also they arnt hunted down because the emperor decreed that the space wolves would always be loyal to the custodes in 30k ... this stands. The wolves have always gotten away with more in the lore, psykers, wulfin, not being codex compliant and that all had a lore justification.


p.s. why do people think space wolves existing means other factions arnt getting attention.... the last 2 years has been primaris palooza. space wolves got one named character... woopdiecrap ,,,, the rest has been white bread boring bland generic space marine crap coming out of our azzoozzas .the existence of the other marine factions isnt whats stoping other factions from getting attention. if anything the only reason DA/BA/SW got anything more then the other none marine factions is because GW wants these three to go white bread to increase sales of generic, uninspired, bland units... less work for them, more sales for them.

Bull gak. The cursed founding was a cluster feth for all chapters and they all got hunted down and purged or sent on suicide missions. The Wulfen are what pushes them over the edge into enemy of the imperium territory.

You still get librarians you call rune priests. You still get to call your things sky claws, and blood claws, and whatever else. Hell, chances are GW is going to released Primaris Wulfen for you down the line. Because it's that or squatting them. Your lore is in tact. Your chapter tactics are in tact even though they go by a common name now. You have literally nothing to complain about.

Ok,,, let me try and make it clear to you...
I don't want to just call tac marines grey hunters. I dont want to just call assault marines blood claws. I want the unique units that i got into the game to play not work exactly like, play exactly like, or be exactly like some other army I didnt choose to get into the game to play. I like that my army was different (even if the differences seem trivial to you for what ever reason). I like that my army felt unique and felt like i wasn't just playing bland white bread. I liked my army having a unique, mechanics based, identity.

If you seriously dont understand the appeal of that, then look a few posts up and check out my proposal for a 10 datasheet game.

Its not that hard to understand. this amalgamation doesnt solve any problems with the game. It just removes from the game.whilst giving GW an excuse to do less work for more proffit.

YEAH it's less work and that's good. It's called "consistency" which Chapter Marines needed for several years.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

Spoiler:

or, why not just release a single codex. with 10 units

entery 1
small
troopers

entery 2
big
troopers

entry 3
Armored unit

Entry 4
Sniper unit

Entry 5
multiple fast vehicle unit

Entry 6
flying jumppack style unit

Entry 7
Armored fast vehicle

entry 8
heavy armored vehicle

entry 9
Flyer

entry 10
Lord of war.


there, we can have 10 datasheets. you can apply them to any models with any asthetics. We fix the balancing issues. Your lore is what ever lore you want because everything is "counts as " one of these 10 datasheets.

Why not, 10 datasheets could easily represent everything in the game. Why bother making more then one codex at all. Nothing will ever be unbalanced, everyone will have access to exactly the same stuff. No one will recieve an special attention. That's it. And then you buy what ever models you want and simply pretend you are playing a unique army.

Why not this ? if SW are just like everything else whilst having similar differences between CSM and SM ... then why not just amalgamate everything into one, mechanically bland little set of rules ? just like any out of the box board game?

Chapter Marines are Chapter Marines and need to be treated as such. Deal with it.

cool, why arn't grey nights in there ?
why don't we treat all aldar as aldari ?
why don't we treat all horde armies exactly the same ?
why arnt we amalgamating more ?

chapter marines as chapter marines.
why stop there ?
marines as marines ?
CSM and SM should obviously be amalgamated ?
i dont understand why we are drawing lines.

eldar have t3 and so do IG ... lets amalgamte them ,,, they are virtually the same right ?

come on, stop being ignorant. You know these factions play different and have been more or less nothing like SM over the past 20 years.

Care to explain the differences between Tactical Squads and Grey Hunters?

Crunch only, please-the fluff is staying untouched.

the_scotsman wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
no space marine armies had much of an identity to begin with. Their most famous chapters, ultramarines, are perhaps some of the dullest characters in the 40k universe. Attested to by the fact that the Space Marine books are extremely difficult to write. Its an extremely one-dimensional trope.

This is subjective.
Where I agree, subjectively, that ultramarines are dull and boring. DA/BA/SW are rife with unique identity, stories, atmosphere and lore. This is a part of why its ridiculous that these factions are being integrated to work exactly like ultramarines... SW arnt codex complient, they dont operate in the same way, the only similarity is they share most of the same gear (yes, primaris count as gear) . the eldar all use similar gear, lets consolidate them, why arn't gene stealer cults and IG in the same codex ? I feel like alot of people here have never actually played a match with or picke up a SW codex... The faction is as different as CSM, GK, DG, TS is to SM ... again, other then primaris.

What Eldar and Dark Eldar units share gear?

fusion, power weapons, haywire, some shurriken technology.
dark eldar add poison and call it something else. Also, alot of similar armor.

sure there are alot of differences, but they share some things.

Not counting Relic gear from unique characters...

They share Plasma Grenades, for Ranged Weapons.
They share Power Swords, for Melee Weapons.

That's it. That's literally it.

Eldar share more pieces of wargear with space marines than dark eldar.

Missile Launcher, Fusion Gun, Power Sword, Melta Bomb.

cool lets put eldar in the marine codex to then ? why not
I am telling you 10 datasheet game, lets make it completely consistent. no variety .

You're not helping your case by positing a ridiculous extreme that no one asked for.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Care to explain the differences between Tactical Squads and Grey Hunters?

Crunch only, please-the fluff is staying untouched.

wolf standard (re-rolling 1s on the charge), no heavy weapon, more special weapons, wolf guard leader, chain swords, no combat squads , more plasma pistols.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's disturbing how gleeful some of you are at the idea of various armies losing their identity.

Used to play Black Templars back in the day, currently collecting Blood Angels. Identity is not having +1 to wound during the first round of a melee combat. It is not that your Rhinos can move 2" more than the rest. It is not that you don't have a sarge in your squad or a special type of vehicle.

Identity is having your guys look like angels / gods descending from the sky on actual wings or like they just came from a crusade to the near east with all the crosses, chains and knightly armor.
Identity is having a melee unit painted black with red markings to let them charge into the fray making sure neither they nor their target will survive.
Identity is calling your leading hero a "Marshal" during the game and during list creation.
Identity is that one dude in mastercrafted armor with a big sword hunting down enemy character models in every game.

I don't need rules for any of this and yet every single one of you knows exactly what unit or Chapter I'm talking about.

 JNAProductions wrote:
You're not helping your case by positing a ridiculous extreme that no one asked for.

but people are asking for this. They want the game to be more consistent ? I really dont understand, why not take it all the way ?

What are the rules of the wolf guard leader? How does he differ from a sergeant?

a_typical_hero wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's disturbing how gleeful some of you are at the idea of various armies losing their identity.

Used to play Black Templars back in the day, currently collecting Blood Angels. Identity is not having +1 to wound during the first round of a melee combat. It is not that your Rhinos can move 2" more than the rest. It is not that you don't have a sarge in your squad or a special type of vehicle.

Identity is having your guys look like angels / gods descending from the sky on actual wings or like they just came from a crusade to the near east with all the crosses, chains and knightly armor.
Identity is having a melee unit painted black with red markings to let them charge into the fray making sure neither they nor their target will survive.
Identity is calling your leading hero a "Marshal" during the game and during list creation.
Identity is that one dude in mastercrafted armor with a big sword hunting down enemy character models in every game.

I don't need rules for any of this and yet every single one of you knows exactly what unit or Chapter I'm talking about.

Blood Angels?
What, you said black and red markings melee unit. That's Death Company
Mastercrafted armor, angel wings? BA.



I'm amazed at how much 'yelling at clouds' there is in this thread. Except it isn't even at real clouds, its at the possibility of potential clouds.

a_typical_hero wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's disturbing how gleeful some of you are at the idea of various armies losing their identity.

Used to play Black Templars back in the day, currently collecting Blood Angels. Identity is not having +1 to wound during the first round of a melee combat. It is not that your Rhinos can move 2" more than the rest. It is not that you don't have a sarge in your squad or a special type of vehicle.

Identity is having your guys look like angels / gods descending from the sky on actual wings or like they just came from a crusade to the near east with all the crosses, chains and knightly armor.
Identity is having a melee unit painted black with red markings to let them charge into the fray making sure neither they nor their target will survive.
Identity is calling your leading hero a "Marshal" during the game and during list creation.
Identity is that one dude in mastercrafted armor with a big sword hunting down enemy character models in every game.

I don't need rules for any of this and yet every single one of you knows exactly what unit or Chapter I'm talking about.

Amen!

a_typical_hero wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's disturbing how gleeful some of you are at the idea of various armies losing their identity.

Used to play Black Templars back in the day, currently collecting Blood Angels. Identity is not having +1 to wound during the first round of a melee combat. It is not that your Rhinos can move 2" more than the rest. It is not that you don't have a sarge in your squad or a special type of vehicle.

Identity is having your guys look like angels / gods descending from the sky on actual wings or like they just came from a crusade to the near east with all the crosses, chains and knightly armor.
Identity is having a melee unit painted black with red markings to let them charge into the fray making sure neither they nor their target will survive.
Identity is calling your leading hero a "Marshal" during the game and during list creation.
Identity is that one dude in mastercrafted armor with a big sword hunting down enemy character models in every game.

I don't need rules for any of this and yet every single one of you knows exactly what unit or Chapter I'm talking about.

cool, another point for the 10 datasheet game.

We just remove the variety in the mechanics and we use one of the standard 10 datasheets for your units and you can call them what ever, paint them what ever and pretend they are unique and full of identity.

Type40 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
You're not helping your case by positing a ridiculous extreme that no one asked for.

but people are asking for this. They want the game to be more consistent ? I really dont understand, why not take it all the way ?

Because people are capable of moderation. I like chocolate-does that mean I must immediately consume every bit of chocolate I see at once?

Space Wolves are vastly more similar to regular Marines than DE are to Eldar or to Harlequins.

Type40 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Care to explain the differences between Tactical Squads and Grey Hunters?

Crunch only, please-the fluff is staying untouched.

wolf standard (re-rolling 1s on the charge), no heavy weapon, more special weapons, wolf guard leader, chain swords, no combat squads , more plasma pistols.

So, wargear options, a Terminator leader, and a loss of a special rule?

Losing the special rule can be done by... Shocker, not using that rule.
Wargear options can be added to a Space Wolves Equipment table, very easily.
And why should Space Wolves get Terminator leaders when Iron Hands don't? Why are Iron Hands less deserving of that, when they both have it in the fluff?

OK, how about what they're actually going to do:

You'll get a space wolves supplement.

It'll have the datasheets for blood claws, grey hunters, WG terminators, SW dreads, SW flyers, wolfen, and fenrisian wolves in it, as well as all the named characters.

You'll get a new unit called "Primaris Blood Claws" that is based on the primaris assault marines kit. it'll give you primaris assault marines with BS4+ and the bezerk rule.

And you'll get a new unit called "Primaris Grey Hunters" that gives you something like the ability to take a unit of intercessors with whatever loadout you want - chainsword+pistol, rifle, assault rifle, stalker rifle all mixed up, plus the option for a WG squad leader.

And otherwise, you use the codex space marines units. You lose the fact that bikers are called "swiftclaws" and scouts are called "wolf scouts" but gain stuff like TFCs, Centurions, whatever. Also, you won't have to wait for updates to your stuff independently of marines anymore, or wait for access to new shared equipment.

Everything Space Wolves had that was unique, stays. Everything that was shared, is now updated all at once.

I don't get how this isn't a better system for you. And later on down the line, when the great squattening occurs, you'll have a special space wolves box that takes all the special heads and special armor and special helmets and scales them up to primaris-scale. Of course they'll make that, why would they stop printing cash by making special snowflake marine stuff?

 Type40 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Care to explain the differences between Tactical Squads and Grey Hunters?

Crunch only, please-the fluff is staying untouched.

wolf standard (re-rolling 1s on the charge), no heavy weapon, more special weapons, wolf guard leader, chain swords, no combat squads , more plasma pistols.

You have to purchase the standard, nobody uses Combat Squads, and the Guard is just a standard Sergeant.

So really the only difference is Chainswords and the extra Special Weapon instead of the Heavy Weapon.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Care to explain the differences between Tactical Squads and Grey Hunters?

Crunch only, please-the fluff is staying untouched.

wolf standard (re-rolling 1s on the charge), no heavy weapon, more special weapons, wolf guard leader, chain swords, no combat squads , more plasma pistols.

You have to purchase the standard, nobody uses Combat Squads, and the Guard is just a standard Sergeant.

So really the only difference is Chainswords and the extra Special Weapon instead of the Heavy Weapon.

I think the Wolf Leader can take Terminator armor. That's the difference.

 Crimson wrote:
What are the rules of the wolf guard leader? How does he differ from a sergeant?

you really havnt opened a SW codex have you ?

Wolf guard leader is in addition to the sgt

you have both
"Grey Hunter Pack Leader"(sgt)
and a
"Wolf Gaurd Pack Leader" (veteran)

The wolf gaurd you add into the squad has access to every wargear option a vetran does. including
Terminator armor,
Storm shields
combi weapons
power weapons
frost weapons
special weapons
etc
etc
etc.

Every non-primaris squad can have a highly specialized model added to the squade with virtually what ever gear you want. Its one of the things that make SW particularly unique... so ya very different from just the sgt... SWs get those too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Care to explain the differences between Tactical Squads and Grey Hunters?

Crunch only, please-the fluff is staying untouched.

wolf standard (re-rolling 1s on the charge), no heavy weapon, more special weapons, wolf guard leader, chain swords, no combat squads , more plasma pistols.

You have to purchase the standard, nobody uses Combat Squads, and the Guard is just a standard Sergeant.

So really the only difference is Chainswords and the extra Special Weapon instead of the Heavy Weapon.

Wrong.
the gaurd is not even remotely close to a standard sergent.
dont even join in this conversation you clearly dont even know what you are arguing against now. Ridiculous. Of course you think its all the same , you don't even know what is in the SW codex. and the standard does make difference whether you purchase it or not,, SM have to purchase the heavy weapon, you dont just exclude that because of that. arbitrarily saying something doesnt count is ridiculous too.

Go pick up a SW codex then come back ... ok ?

 Type40 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
What are the rules of the wolf guard leader? How does he differ from a sergeant?

you really havnt opened a SW codex have you ?

Wolf guard leader is in addition to the sgt

you have both
"Grey Hunter Pack Leader"(sgt)
and a
"Wolf Gaurd Pack Leader" (veteran)

The wolf gaurd you add into the squad has access to every wargear option a vetran does. including
Terminator armor,
Storm shields
combi weapons
power weapons
frost weapons
special weapons
etc
etc
etc.

Every non-primaris squad can have a highly specialized model added to the squade with virtually what ever gear you want. Its one of the things that make SW particularly unique... so ya very different from just the sgt... SWs get those too.

And now the Wolf Guard Pack Leader is called a Lt. And GW churns those models out non stop. You will be spoiled for choice.

 Type40 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
What are the rules of the wolf guard leader? How does he differ from a sergeant?

you really havnt opened a SW codex have you ?

I have, but not recently.

You can give sergeant an option to take those items.

EDIT: Though indeed as Lance says, Lieutenant is a good way to represent them too.

We have opened the Space Wolves codex and they aren't so unique they deserve their own codex. Sounds like you have a problem pretending to be different when you aren't.

 Crimson wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
What are the rules of the wolf guard leader? How does he differ from a sergeant?

you really havnt opened a SW codex have you ?

I have, but not recently.

You can give sergeant an option to take those items.

no you cant ?

an wolf gaurd have been in the SW codex since at least 4th ... (when i first played them)

your telling me a SM tac squad sgt can take terminator armor, a storm shield and a thunderhammer.
or they can take a power armor, storm shield, storm bolter ?

your full of it.

 Type40 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

Spoiler:

or, why not just release a single codex. with 10 units

entery 1
small
troopers

entery 2
big
troopers

entry 3
Armored unit

Entry 4
Sniper unit

Entry 5
multiple fast vehicle unit

Entry 6
flying jumppack style unit

Entry 7
Armored fast vehicle

entry 8
heavy armored vehicle

entry 9
Flyer

entry 10
Lord of war.


there, we can have 10 datasheets. you can apply them to any models with any asthetics. We fix the balancing issues. Your lore is what ever lore you want because everything is "counts as " one of these 10 datasheets.

Why not, 10 datasheets could easily represent everything in the game. Why bother making more then one codex at all. Nothing will ever be unbalanced, everyone will have access to exactly the same stuff. No one will recieve an special attention. That's it. And then you buy what ever models you want and simply pretend you are playing a unique army.

Why not this ? if SW are just like everything else whilst having similar differences between CSM and SM ... then why not just amalgamate everything into one, mechanically bland little set of rules ? just like any out of the box board game?

Chapter Marines are Chapter Marines and need to be treated as such. Deal with it.

cool, why arn't grey nights in there ?
why don't we treat all aldar as aldari ?
why don't we treat all horde armies exactly the same ?
why arnt we amalgamating more ?

chapter marines as chapter marines.
why stop there ?
marines as marines ?
CSM and SM should obviously be amalgamated ?
i dont understand why we are drawing lines.

eldar have t3 and so do IG ... lets amalgamte them ,,, they are virtually the same right ?

come on, stop being ignorant. You know these factions play different and have been more or less nothing like SM over the past 20 years.

I've already talked about rolling Grey Knights and Deathwatch into one Inquisition codex, so you're on the right track, tiger. I'd also make the same argument if Craftworld Biel-Tan got their own codex that they don't need.

So honestly you're arguing dishonestly which I'm not shocked by.

 Crimson wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
What are the rules of the wolf guard leader? How does he differ from a sergeant?

you really havnt opened a SW codex have you ?

I have, but not recently.

You can give sergeant an option to take those items.

EDIT: Though indeed as Lance says, Lieutenant is a good way to represent them too.

a lieutenant is not a part of the tactical squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

Spoiler:

or, why not just release a single codex. with 10 units

entery 1
small
troopers

entery 2
big
troopers

entry 3
Armored unit

Entry 4
Sniper unit

Entry 5
multiple fast vehicle unit

Entry 6
flying jumppack style unit

Entry 7
Armored fast vehicle

entry 8
heavy armored vehicle

entry 9
Flyer

entry 10
Lord of war.


there, we can have 10 datasheets. you can apply them to any models with any asthetics. We fix the balancing issues. Your lore is what ever lore you want because everything is "counts as " one of these 10 datasheets.

Why not, 10 datasheets could easily represent everything in the game. Why bother making more then one codex at all. Nothing will ever be unbalanced, everyone will have access to exactly the same stuff. No one will recieve an special attention. That's it. And then you buy what ever models you want and simply pretend you are playing a unique army.

Why not this ? if SW are just like everything else whilst having similar differences between CSM and SM ... then why not just amalgamate everything into one, mechanically bland little set of rules ? just like any out of the box board game?

Chapter Marines are Chapter Marines and need to be treated as such. Deal with it.

cool, why arn't grey nights in there ?
why don't we treat all aldar as aldari ?
why don't we treat all horde armies exactly the same ?
why arnt we amalgamating more ?

chapter marines as chapter marines.
why stop there ?
marines as marines ?
CSM and SM should obviously be amalgamated ?
i dont understand why we are drawing lines.

eldar have t3 and so do IG ... lets amalgamte them ,,, they are virtually the same right ?

come on, stop being ignorant. You know these factions play different and have been more or less nothing like SM over the past 20 years.

I've already talked about rolling Grey Knights and Deathwatch into one Inquisition codex, so you're on the right track, tiger. I'd also make the same argument if Craftworld Biel-Tan got their own codex that they don't need.

So honestly you're arguing dishonestly which I'm not shocked by.

I am not, you want to consolidate the game, then fine. Great, lets make 10 datasheets and every model can follow them. why have unique variations or seperate factions at all ? everything unique can be represented by models and paint.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seriously. go figure out what the SW codex actually says... its becoming clear here that I am only talking to people who play against/ played primaris in the past year and seem to think every unit in SW operates the same as SM ... which is not the case.

 Type40 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
What are the rules of the wolf guard leader? How does he differ from a sergeant?

you really havnt opened a SW codex have you ?

I have, but not recently.

You can give sergeant an option to take those items.

no you cant ?

an wolf gaurd have been in the SW codex since at least 4th ... (when i first played them)

your telling me a SM tac squad sgt can take terminator armor, a storm shield and a thunderhammer.
or they can take a power armor, storm shield, storm bolter ?

your full of it.

I meant that a sergeant cvan be given access to those items. In the SW supplement. Iron Hands could get similar option in theirs.

a lieutenant is not a part of the tactical squad.

Yes, so? Since 8e many mini characters such as champions, standard bearers, warlocks etc are no longer part of the squad. Same thing.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
What are the rules of the wolf guard leader? How does he differ from a sergeant?

you really havnt opened a SW codex have you ?

Wolf guard leader is in addition to the sgt

you have both
"Grey Hunter Pack Leader"(sgt)
and a
"Wolf Gaurd Pack Leader" (veteran)

The wolf gaurd you add into the squad has access to every wargear option a vetran does. including
Terminator armor,
Storm shields
combi weapons
power weapons
frost weapons
special weapons
etc
etc
etc.

Every non-primaris squad can have a highly specialized model added to the squade with virtually what ever gear you want. Its one of the things that make SW particularly unique... so ya very different from just the sgt... SWs get those too.

And now the Wolf Guard Pack Leader is called a Lt. And GW churns those models out non stop. You will be spoiled for choice.

can a lieutenant be in a tactical marine unit ? no. so, GW doesnt do that, do they.

 Type40 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
What are the rules of the wolf guard leader? How does he differ from a sergeant?

you really havnt opened a SW codex have you ?

I have, but not recently.

You can give sergeant an option to take those items.

EDIT: Though indeed as Lance says, Lieutenant is a good way to represent them too.

a lieutenant is not a part of the tactical squad.

Boo fething hoo.

Again, your regular marines are on a line waiting for legends. NONE of the units you are complaining about will be around. They are all going to get some kind of representation as Primaris. Thats the future of the SM line. The writing has been on the wall for 3 years. Intercessors don't act like Tac marines. But guess what? They are the new tac marines. You are going to get Primaris versions of the units and they won't be exactly the same. Have you just realized this now?

 Crimson wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
What are the rules of the wolf guard leader? How does he differ from a sergeant?

you really havnt opened a SW codex have you ?

I have, but not recently.

You can give sergeant an option to take those items.

no you cant ?

an wolf gaurd have been in the SW codex since at least 4th ... (when i first played them)

your telling me a SM tac squad sgt can take terminator armor, a storm shield and a thunderhammer.
or they can take a power armor, storm shield, storm bolter ?

your full of it.

I meant that a sergeant cvan be given access to those items. In the SW supplement. Iron Hands could get similar option in theirs.

so then what happens the the sgt we already have in the squad ? do they not get their wargear ?
a sgt isnt a wolf gaurd... they have seperate positions in my units with seperate wargear options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Type40 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
What are the rules of the wolf guard leader? How does he differ from a sergeant?

you really havnt opened a SW codex have you ?

I have, but not recently.

You can give sergeant an option to take those items.

EDIT: Though indeed as Lance says, Lieutenant is a good way to represent them too.

a lieutenant is not a part of the tactical squad.

Boo fething hoo.

Again, your regular marines are on a line waiting for legends. NONE of the units you are complaining about will be around. They are all going to get some kind of representation as Primaris. Thats the future of the SM line. The writing has been on the wall for 3 years. Intercessors don't act like Tac marines. But guess what? they are the new tac marines. You are going to get Primaris versions of the units and they won't be exactly the same. Have you just realized this now?

ya,,, welcome to the party, this is what everyone on my side of the wall is complaining about. we dont like the idea of our faction slowly being turned to generic white bread with no unique substance. So screw you for gatekeeping and telling us to stop whining that our entire faction identity is being thrown in the trash.

We dont want to play a different faction, we anted to play this faction. Give us our own upgrades or leave us alone. Why the feth do you think its ok for you to be telling us to get in line and play the generic stuff we didnt sign up for or not play at all. this change is gak.

Since 8e many mini characters such as champions, standard bearers, warlocks etc are no longer part of the squad. Same with the Wolf Guard Battle leader.

Seriously you are utterly fixated on nonsense technical details and not on what they are supposed to represent. I've played this game since the second edition. Rules change.

 Crimson wrote:
Since 8e many mini characters such as champions, standard bearers, warlocks etc are no longer part of the squad. Same with the Wolf Guard Battle leader.

Seriously you are utterly fixated on nonsense technical details and not on what they are supposed to represent. I've played this game since the second edition. Rules change.

cool,

so again, 10 datasheets to represent everything and we'll focus on what they are supposed to represent. And if you dont like that i will tell you stop fixating on the technical details and focus on pretending you have a unique army. I have played since 4th, plenty of time to watch rules change.

Wolf-gaurd battle leaders are not wolf gaurd pack leaders.... again,,, go pick up a SW codex and figure out what you are arguing against.
Wolf gaurd battle leaders are not part of the squad, your right.

I believe it was in this thread that someone said something like "Don't moan about your missing options when they aren't even gone yet."

There's a possibility that GW will include literally every single unique datasheet (even stuff like Wolf Guard Leaders, that are just Lieutenants) in the supplement.
There's a stronger possibility that most all the unique ones will be included, and you'll get a blurb about how Lieutenants are called something else in the fluff section.

You're acting like SW are losing everything, when the supplement has literally just been announced within the past week.