Switch Theme:

Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit  [RSS] 

Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 14:19:33


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


So, with the new Space Marine Codex on the horizon (bit too soon for my tastes), with all new merging all power armoured Imperial Space Marines into one book, with unique traits being represented via supplements, it seems.

Worst thing to happen to your faction? Exactly what you wanted? Discuss!


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 14:22:21


Post by: McMagnus Mindbullets


I think it's a positive change. This is because I don't think/don't know whether they're going to do a whole new wave of supplements: so the core book contains all the updated points, rules, and mechanics, then the old supplements and books contain all the unchanged stratagems/unique things.



Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 14:25:09


Post by: WhiteDog


This is complete bullcrap.
Be ready for the disappearance of many specific units.

I'm not really astonished that Smudge made a topic as soon as the news came down.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 14:32:39


Post by: Kharne the Befriender


WhiteDog wrote:
This is complete bullcrap.
Be ready for the disappearance of many specific units.

I'm not really astonished that Smudge made a topic as soon as the news came down.


Why would they get rid of specific units? Just because they (DA/BA/SW) don't have their own dex doesn't mean they won't get they're own units still.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 14:34:44


Post by: H.B.M.C.


You're going to have supplements with wildly varying unique unit counts, but beyond that I'm not against the concept.



Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 14:36:25


Post by: WhiteDog


 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
This is complete bullcrap.
Be ready for the disappearance of many specific units.

I'm not really astonished that Smudge made a topic as soon as the news came down.


Why would they get rid of specific units? Just because they (DA/BA/SW) don't have their own dex doesn't mean they won't get they're own units still.

Because many units from the SM codex have the same exact field role as the DA/SW/BA specific units. What's the point of Dark Talon / Nephilim if you have the stormhawk interceptor and the other one ?
There's no point at all.

You pay more than before (a codex + a supplement) to effectively get less and lose your orignality.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 14:36:28


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:I think it's a positive change. This is because I don't think/don't know whether they're going to do a whole new wave of supplements: so the core book contains all the updated points, rules, and mechanics, then the old supplements and books contain all the unchanged stratagems/unique things.
Not looking forward to the inevitable wave of all the old supplements being re-released (unless that somehow doesn't happen?), but everything getting brought to line with the same mechanics, and not having to worry about one flavour of Marines getting bonuses and others needing a quick band-aid fix are good IMO.

WhiteDog wrote:This is complete bullcrap.
Be ready for the disappearance of many specific units.
Let's wait and see, shall we? Supplements are more than capable of adding many unique units, replacing datasheets, etc etc. Shifting to this style doesn't mean any units are guaranteed to disappear.

I'm not really astonished that Smudge made a topic as soon as the news came down.
And I'm not astonished that you felt the need to point that out. So, with that out of the way, drop it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You're going to have supplements with wildly varying unique unit counts, but beyond that I'm not against the concept.

Don't we already have that? Ultramarines have TONS of unique datasheets in their supplements, Iron Hands have... one?


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 14:37:21


Post by: Sasori


This is something people have been asking for a very long time, and I think it's a positive change.



Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 14:37:56


Post by: BroodSpawn


 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
This is complete bullcrap.
Be ready for the disappearance of many specific units.

I'm not really astonished that Smudge made a topic as soon as the news came down.


Why would they get rid of specific units? Just because they (DA/BA/SW) don't have their own dex doesn't mean they won't get they're own units still.


It's a worry because, as some on this forum will say, things like Deathwing terminators should just be normal terminators. So remove the Deathwing Terminators entry and give them an extra keyword.
Removes the unique DA terminators they've had for years but also doesn't, and dilutes the non-purely Codex style chapters like the DA/BA/Wolves into just being Codex chapter but different colours. Oh and narratively your special units will be worse than the Ultramarines, even with 20+ years of story against that.

It may be a knee-jerk reaction of 'but there's no proof we'll get to keep our cool stuff because we're just being folded into the Ultramarine book', but it's one I expect people to have at least until news about the DA supplement (using them as an example here) comes out and details on and what is and is not allowed from the core codex hit the light of day.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 14:39:27


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


WhiteDog wrote:
 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
This is complete bullcrap.
Be ready for the disappearance of many specific units.

I'm not really astonished that Smudge made a topic as soon as the news came down.


Why would they get rid of specific units? Just because they (DA/BA/SW) don't have their own dex doesn't mean they won't get they're own units still.

Because many units from the SM codex have the same exact field role as the DA/SW/BA specific units. What's the point of Dark Talon / Nephilim if you have the stormhawk interceptor and the other one ?
By that same token, why have the Stormhawk when you have the Stormtalon? Why have the Stalker when you have the Hunter?

What may well happen is DA being told in their supplement that they can't take the Stormhawks, or maybe they'll just get access to both, and players can pick and choose. Redundancy won't be enforced.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 14:39:27


Post by: Kanluwen


The funny part is that Deathwing Terminators had to actually be given something unique(the Plasma Cannon option) to really be super different.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 14:41:21


Post by: WhiteDog


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
This is complete bullcrap.
Be ready for the disappearance of many specific units.

I'm not really astonished that Smudge made a topic as soon as the news came down.


Why would they get rid of specific units? Just because they (DA/BA/SW) don't have their own dex doesn't mean they won't get they're own units still.

Because many units from the SM codex have the same exact field role as the DA/SW/BA specific units. What's the point of Dark Talon / Nephilim if you have the stormhawk interceptor and the other one ?
By that same token, why have the Stormhawk when you have the Stormtalon? Why have the Stalker when you have the Hunter?

What may well happen is DA being told in their supplement that they can't take the Stormhawks, or maybe they'll just get access to both, and players can pick and choose. Redundancy won't be enforced.

Stormhawk and stormtalon don't have the same field role - one is primarily an anti-air gunship, the INTERCEPTOR, exactly like the nephilim, and the other is more flexible. The hunter and the stalker don't have the same role either : one is heavy anti air, the other is a light anti air that has a higher rate of fire.
By the way, most armies have the same kind of 2 or 3 aerial units with distinct roles : one anti air, one bomber, one transport more or less.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 14:42:15


Post by: Voss


Finally! This is great. Its what the should have done last time.

The PA debacle won't happen again, book after book of 'updated' datasheets that just changed one of the keywords.

No special snowflake units will be lost- they'll be in the relevant supplement.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 14:42:28


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 BroodSpawn wrote:
It's a worry because, as some on this forum will say, things like Deathwing terminators should just be normal terminators. So remove the Deathwing Terminators entry and give them an extra keyword.
What's the mechanical difference between them that can't be presented through native keyword additions?
Removes the unique DA terminators they've had for years but also doesn't, and dilutes the non-purely Codex style chapters like the DA/BA/Wolves into just being Codex chapter but different colours. Oh and narratively your special units will be worse than the Ultramarines, even with 20+ years of story against that.
But where's the indication that the truly unique Terminators (Knights, for example) will be removed?

It may be a knee-jerk reaction of 'but there's no proof we'll get to keep our cool stuff because we're just being folded into the Ultramarine book', but it's one I expect people to have at least until news about the DA supplement (using them as an example here) comes out and details on and what is and is not allowed from the core codex hit the light of day.
Yeah - before claiming that XYZ are going to be removed, perhaps it's best to wait until we see how GW are handling it.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 14:42:42


Post by: H.B.M.C.


WhiteDog wrote:
What's the point of Dark Talon / Nephilim if you have the stormhawk interceptor and the other one ?
There's no point at all.
I doubt they're about to drop things that have actual kits, like the Dark Talon, or Sanguinary Guard, or Wolf Guard Terminator, and so on.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 14:44:08


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


WhiteDog wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
This is complete bullcrap.
Be ready for the disappearance of many specific units.

I'm not really astonished that Smudge made a topic as soon as the news came down.


Why would they get rid of specific units? Just because they (DA/BA/SW) don't have their own dex doesn't mean they won't get they're own units still.

Because many units from the SM codex have the same exact field role as the DA/SW/BA specific units. What's the point of Dark Talon / Nephilim if you have the stormhawk interceptor and the other one ?
By that same token, why have the Stormhawk when you have the Stormtalon? Why have the Stalker when you have the Hunter?

What may well happen is DA being told in their supplement that they can't take the Stormhawks, or maybe they'll just get access to both, and players can pick and choose. Redundancy won't be enforced.

Stormhawk and stormtalon don't have the same field role.
Dark Talon and Nephilim have even less in common with the Storm- family though. If those units can be distinct, then the DA vehicles will be as well.

Also, look at it the other way - why on earth would GW jettison their DA vehicles and the molds for them? It's easier to keep them around.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 14:44:10


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Don't we already have that? Ultramarines have TONS of unique datasheets in their supplements, Iron Hands have... one?
They have a ton of special characters. There's a difference.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 14:44:22


Post by: Platuan4th


 Kanluwen wrote:
The funny part is that Deathwing Terminators had to actually be given something unique(the Plasma Cannon option) to really be super different.


So we're just ignoring mixing shooty and assault loadouts in a unit and putting Cyclones on assaulty Termies?

OK then.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 14:45:48


Post by: BroodSpawn


Smudge, I'm not arguing with you again (in the 3rd topic I think at this point) about removing units from things like the DA so they can just be like everyone else's Terminators even when they've had mechanical and model kit differences for over 20yrs. I am not interested in going around that circle again thank you.

You'll notice I was replying to someone asking why there would be a worry. I even said it's probably a knee-jerk reaction based on limited/no information. You can disagree, fine, but the point was 'this is why someone will be worried' and you coming along and saying 'yeah, those things shouldn't be different anyway so could be removed/folded together' kind of proves my point with that.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 14:47:52


Post by: Crimson


This is an excellent change and long overdue.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 14:48:51


Post by: Kanluwen


 Platuan4th wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
The funny part is that Deathwing Terminators had to actually be given something unique(the Plasma Cannon option) to really be super different.


So we're just ignoring mixing shooty and assault loadouts in a unit and putting Cyclones on assaulty Termies?

OK then.

Fair play...but can't Wolf Guard Terminators do that too?

Truthfully, whenever I think of DA Terminators the truly unique ones are the Deathwing Knights not the 'standard' Terminators. The only thing that always jumped out at me with the standard Terminators was the Plasma Cannon.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 14:51:15


Post by: Platuan4th


 Kanluwen wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
The funny part is that Deathwing Terminators had to actually be given something unique(the Plasma Cannon option) to really be super different.


So we're just ignoring mixing shooty and assault loadouts in a unit and putting Cyclones on assaulty Termies?

OK then.

Fair...but can't Wolf Guard Terminators do that too?


Yeah, but what can't the Furry Stus do?


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 14:54:21


Post by: TheAvengingKnee


 Crimson wrote:
This is an excellent change and long overdue.


It at least should fix the issue of a new mechanic for core space marines coming out and then all the unique factions of space marines BA/DA/SW then needing to separately be adjusted to the new way GW wants all marines to work. I think the supplements for the different factions offf of the main SM rule book is a good idea.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 14:56:20


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


H.B.M.C. wrote:So we're just ignoring mixing shooty and assault loadouts in a unit and putting Cyclones on assaulty Termies?

OK then.
That's something that normal Chapters have been able to do in lore, but hasn't been transferred into game. Space Hulk features mixed armament Terminators just fine, and Cataphractii and Tartaros Terminators are capable of mixing weapons. There's no reason normal Terminators shouldn't be able to as well.

It's really not that much of a unique feature.

WhiteDog wrote:It's tiresome to discuss with someone that never think.
You're right, it is.


Kanluwen wrote:Truthfully, whenever I think of DA Terminators the truly unique ones are the Deathwing Knights not the 'standard' Terminators. The only thing that always jumped out at me with the standard Terminators was the Plasma Cannon.
Agreed - Deathwing Knights are definitely a unique unit, deserving of a completely bespoke entry. Regular Deathwing Terminators could get by with a keyword that provides them extra rules, much like how White Scars Bikers got one.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Don't we already have that? Ultramarines have TONS of unique datasheets in their supplements, Iron Hands have... one?
They have a ton of special characters. There's a difference.
Ultramarines also have several unique 'generic' units that aren't just named characters - Victrix Guard, Honour Guard, Terminus Ultra, etc etc.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 14:59:07


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Platuan4th wrote:
So we're just ignoring mixing shooty and assault loadouts in a unit and putting Cyclones on assaulty Termies?
Seems we are. Never mind the fact that Terminators have had their weapon options split in two since the 3rd Ed Marine Codex. Now Deathwing are basically just the same as regular Terminators.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Ultramarines also have several unique 'generic' units that aren't just named characters - Victrix Guard, Honour Guard, Terminus Ultra, etc etc.
But not as many as the Wolves do. Not even as many as the Blood Angels or Dark Angels do, and they're basically Codex chapters.



Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:01:53


Post by: WhiteDog


EDIT: Please remember rule #1

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
So we're just ignoring mixing shooty and assault loadouts in a unit and putting Cyclones on assaulty Termies?
Seems we are. Never mind the fact that Terminators have had their weapon options split in two since the 3rd Ed Marine Codex. Now Deathwing are basically just the same as regular Terminators.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Ultramarines also have several unique 'generic' units that aren't just named characters - Victrix Guard, Honour Guard, Terminus Ultra, etc etc.
But not as many as the Wolves do. Not even as many as the Blood Angels or Dark Angels do, and they're basically Codex chapters.

Terminator are old marines anyway, they will disappear at one point or another. The bladeguards have more wounds, a better invul, the same 2+ and one more attack. The only thing they lack is the loadout flexibility.
I'm a DA player, I think it suck. But that's how it is.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:02:54


Post by: Gadzilla666


Voss wrote:
Finally! This is great. Its what the should have done last time.

The PA debacle won't happen again, book after book of 'updated' datasheets that just changed one of the keywords.

No special snowflake units will be lost- they'll be in the relevant supplement.

Yeah, just think of all the pages in those books that could have been used for new rules for the other factions in them. And hopefully they'll release the supplements at the same time as the codex so they can just get on with it and finally give some attention to other factions besides loyalists.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:02:59


Post by: Voss


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But not as many as the Wolves do. Not even as many as the Blood Angels or Dark Angels do, and they're basically Codex chapters.

I'm not sure why you're caught up on 'not as many'. They can still put the extra datasheets in a supplement. Most of the current ones are embarrassingly empty and short.
GW LOVES selling unique marine kits and variants. They aren't going to go away because the book format changes slightly.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Yeah, just think of all the pages in those books that could have been used for new rules for the other factions in them. And hopefully they'll release the supplements at the same time as the codex so they can just get on with it and finally give some attention to other factions besides loyalists.

Well... I'm not as optimistic about 'the same time.' I expect a weekend each, at least, probably a little more. Supplement and a new primarized special character and/or lieutenant.
Hopefully by the new year loyalists can be done and we can have a xenos year, or something.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:03:58


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
So we're just ignoring mixing shooty and assault loadouts in a unit and putting Cyclones on assaulty Termies?
Seems we are. Never mind the fact that Terminators have had their weapon options split in two since the 3rd Ed Marine Codex. Now Deathwing are basically just the same as regular Terminators.
Never mind the fact that Cataphractii and Tartaros can mix weapons. Do we need an Assault Cataphractii unit now?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Ultramarines also have several unique 'generic' units that aren't just named characters - Victrix Guard, Honour Guard, Terminus Ultra, etc etc.
But not as many as the Wolves do. Not even as many as the Blood Angels or Dark Angels do, and they're basically Codex chapters.
Ultramarines are closer in unique unit size to those Chapters - so, under that logic, should Ultramarines get a unique Codex instead of a supplement?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
WhiteDog wrote:You've been going at it for month with no shame.
I've really not. You make it sound like that's the only thing I post about, which a cursory look on my profile would disprove.

Let it go.
Everything you argue is dumb, based on a shakky understanding of the topic you are talking about.
Yeah, seriously, Let it go. Rule 1 is a thing here.
You need to focus and think before posting.
No, I think that's something you ought to do. You're being incredibly aggressive and tactless here. Take a breath, step away, and come back later when you're not just attacking me.

Voss wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But not as many as the Wolves do. Not even as many as the Blood Angels or Dark Angels do, and they're basically Codex chapters.

I'm not sure why you're caught up on 'not as many'. They can still put the extra datasheets in a supplement. Most of the current ones are embarrassingly empty and short.
Yeah, there's no reason not to have a tanky thick supplement.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:08:37


Post by: pm713


I really dislike the idea but at this stage GW have ****ed things up so much it's probably for the best.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:09:38


Post by: WhiteDog


I'm not aggressive in any way, I'm just stating fact : the stormhawk "INTERCEPTOR" and the nephilim "JET FIGHTER" have the same exact role. This is a fact, not something that's up to discuss or argue about. If you can't just understand and acknowledge the basic fact that are said, what's the point ?

It's like this new tank, the "gladiator" : it is basically a predator. The predator and the gladiator overlap, they are both flexibles light tank. This is not a discussion, it's just a fact : those two units have the same exact tactical role, and if one is better than the other (point wise, rule wise, etc.) then there's no point in buying/taking the other.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:10:11


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Never mind the fact that Cataphractii and Tartaros can mix weapons. Do we need an Assault Cataphractii unit now?
Cataphractii and Tartaros Terminators aren't the regular squads and have nothing to do with this.

You're really bad at arguments.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:11:04


Post by: greyknight12


Hopefully the codex is structured with a "Core" section, followed by "Chapter-specific" sections where unique units, chapter tactics, etc are detailed.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:14:16


Post by: Platuan4th


 greyknight12 wrote:
Hopefully the codex is structured with a "Core" section, followed by "Chapter-specific" sections where unique units, chapter tactics, etc are detailed.


They already said Supplements are following, so no Chapter unique units, strats, etc. in the book.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:18:23


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


WhiteDog wrote:I'm not aggressive in any way, I'm just stating fact : the stormhawk "INTERCEPTOR" and the nephilim "JET FIGHTER" have the same exact role. This is a fact, not something that's up to discuss or argue about. If you can't just understand and acknowledge the basic fact that are said, what's the point ?
They might have a similar role, yes. But when did GW care so much about redundancy that they'd get rid of units? Stalkers and Hunters are both AA tanks. Most Primaris units have a degree of overlap with their Firstborn counterparts. And yet none of them have been removed.

It's almost like GW don't care about redundancy, and are more than happy to have model bloat.

It's like this new tank, the "gladiator" : it is basically a predator. The predator and the gladiator overlap, they are both flexibles light tank. This is not a discussion, it's just a fact : those two units have the same exact tactical role, and if one is better than the other (point wise, rule wise, etc.) then there's no point in buying/taking the other.
In the same vein, the Land Raider is the same as a Repulsor, and a Razorback is the same as an Impulsor. That's why Land Raiders and Razorbacks don't exist, right?

H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Never mind the fact that Cataphractii and Tartaros can mix weapons. Do we need an Assault Cataphractii unit now?
Cataphractii and Tartaros Terminators aren't the regular squads and have nothing to do with this.

You're really bad at arguments.
Why does them not being regular squads change anything? Mixed weapon terminators are a thing in lore and in newer units. It's not unique to the Deathwing, and shouldn't be used as a defence.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:19:53


Post by: WhiteDog


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:I'm not aggressive in any way, I'm just stating fact : the stormhawk "INTERCEPTOR" and the nephilim "JET FIGHTER" have the same exact role. This is a fact, not something that's up to discuss or argue about. If you can't just understand and acknowledge the basic fact that are said, what's the point ?
They might have a similar role, yes. But when did GW care so much about redundancy that they'd get rid of units? Stalkers and Hunters are both AA tanks. Most Primaris units have a degree of overlap with their Firstborn counterparts. And yet none of them have been removed.

It's almost like GW don't care about redundancy, and are more than happy to have model bloat

Stalker and hunters do not have the same tactical role. Rule #1 please


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:23:04


Post by: Dysartes


...since when did the Deathwatch follow the Codex Astartes?


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:23:06


Post by: Galas


I was agaisnt the unification in the form most people asking for it wanted it, basically stripping all special options because "muh bloat".

In this way we'll have a core codex with everything up to date and all the special stuff in supplements. So is the best approach. I like it. And if it means Dark Angel Centurions (I just love the models, sorry not sorry) I'm all over it.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:23:53


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


WhiteDog wrote:
Stalker and hunters do not have the same tactical role.
Of course, one is an AA tank, and the other is an... AA tank.

Yeah, such a difference.
Think more.
Drop it with these sorts of comments. You're being needlessly antagonistic and patronising.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Galas wrote:
I was agaisnt the unification in the form most people asking for it wanted it, basically stripping all special options because "muh bloat".

In this way we'll have a core codex with everything up to date and all the special stuff in supplements. So is the best approach. I like it. And if it means Dark Angel Centurions (I just love the models, sorry not sorry) I'm all over it.
I love some DA Centurions. I think they'd look so cool if someone could kitbash some robey goodness on them.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:25:23


Post by: pm713


 Galas wrote:
I was agaisnt the unification in the form most people asking for it wanted it, basically stripping all special options because "muh bloat".

In this way we'll have a core codex with everything up to date and all the special stuff in supplements. So is the best approach. I like it. And if it means Dark Angel Centurions (I just love the models, sorry not sorry) I'm all over it.

That seems needlessly expensive to me. I have to buy a codex for my rules and then buy a supplement for all my units. Yay...


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:25:57


Post by: WhiteDog


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
Stalker and hunters do not have the same tactical role.
Of course, one is an AA tank, and the other is an... AA tank.

Yeah, such a difference.
Think more.
Drop it with these sorts of comments. You're being needlessly antagonistic and patronising.

The Stalker is a light AA tank, with heavy rate of fire, the hunter is a heavy AA tank. Yeah it's different, like the Gladiator and the Repulsor Executioner : both are tanks, one is a light tank, less costly and more flexible, while the other is more durable with better weapons.

GW pump a gak ton of units for marines but they don't produce units that overlap : oftentime the units they produce follows very basic rules so that the tactical role of units don't overlap (interceptor/bomber/transports for flyers for exemple). When they do overlap, it usually means they will replace one with the other (predator / gladiator ; tactical SM / intercessor).


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:27:29


Post by: ERJAK


WhiteDog wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:I'm not aggressive in any way, I'm just stating fact : the stormhawk "INTERCEPTOR" and the nephilim "JET FIGHTER" have the same exact role. This is a fact, not something that's up to discuss or argue about. If you can't just understand and acknowledge the basic fact that are said, what's the point ?
They might have a similar role, yes. But when did GW care so much about redundancy that they'd get rid of units? Stalkers and Hunters are both AA tanks. Most Primaris units have a degree of overlap with their Firstborn counterparts. And yet none of them have been removed.

It's almost like GW don't care about redundancy, and are more than happy to have model bloat

Stalker and hunters do not have the same tactical role. Think more.


They have the exact same tactical role: Dust Collector.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:30:00


Post by: Turnip Jedi


I suspect this is more or less a 9e Index to pull all SM into the new edition at broadly the same point and Chapter books will follow

And if youre miffed about loss of options find yourself a Deldar player theyll share coping techniques for this sort of thing


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:31:33


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


WhiteDog wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
Stalker and hunters do not have the same tactical role.
Of course, one is an AA tank, and the other is an... AA tank.

Yeah, such a difference.
Think more.
Drop it with these sorts of comments. You're being needlessly antagonistic and patronising.

The Stalker is a light AA tank, with heavy rate of fire, the hunter is a heavy AA tank.
They have the same chassis. There's no more of a "light/heavy" difference than the difference between Predator turrets, or Razorback turrets.
Yeah it's different, like the Gladiator and the Repulsor Executioner : both are tanks, one of a light tank, less costly and more flexible, while the other is more durable.
Two tanks with totally different chassis', amounts of weapons, transport capacities? Yeah, of course they're seperate!

The Stalker and Hunter are literally identical barring their main weapon, both of which are anti-air batteries. Are Razorbacks with lascannons different tanks to Razorbacks with heavy bolters? No, because they're both IFVs, with a modest troop capacity and a heavy turret weapon to provide fire support.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:32:22


Post by: Galas


pm713 wrote:
 Galas wrote:
I was agaisnt the unification in the form most people asking for it wanted it, basically stripping all special options because "muh bloat".

In this way we'll have a core codex with everything up to date and all the special stuff in supplements. So is the best approach. I like it. And if it means Dark Angel Centurions (I just love the models, sorry not sorry) I'm all over it.

That seems needlessly expensive to me. I have to buy a codex for my rules and then buy a supplement for all my units. Yay...


We are space marine players, we are subsidizing all the small armies. One has to accept it, is the price for having the most up to date rules and models.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:32:46


Post by: BaconCatBug


Yes, I like this, so long as they keep the deny/allow list up to date as new primaris are released.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:35:42


Post by: WhiteDog


They have the same chassis. There's no more of a "light/heavy" difference than the difference between Predator turrets, or Razorback turrets.

lol you're a treat. Have a nice day.

PS: do you know the hunter and the stalker don't have the same gun ?


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:35:49


Post by: Arbitrator


It's good, but it will probably only last as long as new Primaris units are 'vanilla'. Once the range is filled out and they inevitably start producing chapter-specific Primaris it'll be back to codexes... unless of course they realise they can pull more money from having 'em by the already most expensive codex + a supplement.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:35:50


Post by: pm713


 Galas wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Galas wrote:
I was agaisnt the unification in the form most people asking for it wanted it, basically stripping all special options because "muh bloat".

In this way we'll have a core codex with everything up to date and all the special stuff in supplements. So is the best approach. I like it. And if it means Dark Angel Centurions (I just love the models, sorry not sorry) I'm all over it.

That seems needlessly expensive to me. I have to buy a codex for my rules and then buy a supplement for all my units. Yay...


We are space marine players, we are subsidizing all the small armies. One has to accept it, is the price for having the most up to date rules and models.

I was happier when my army was more ignored by GW and didn't get an increasing pile of crap added into it honestly. The worst thing that happened to wolves since I started was GW "updating" them. Almost all of it is trash.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:38:10


Post by: a_typical_hero


Unless we see which units get axed or not, I think everybody can be happy, no?

- "Ordinary" Marine players are the first to get a new codex
- Deviants like BA, SW and so on don't have to wait an additional time before a FAQ or new codex brings them in line with their brethren
- Xenos and Chaos might get their respective codizes sooner, since we won't get separate codex releases for BA, SW, ... .

Now they said there will be supplements, but they hopefully don't take as much development time as a full codex.


Personally I'm playing Blood Angels and I'm not afraid of losing anything. Even if all special units end up being purely cosmetic paint jobs from now on, the Codex Astartes offers enough selection to still fulfill my personal army fantasy.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:38:57


Post by: Galas


pm713 wrote:
 Galas wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Galas wrote:
I was agaisnt the unification in the form most people asking for it wanted it, basically stripping all special options because "muh bloat".

In this way we'll have a core codex with everything up to date and all the special stuff in supplements. So is the best approach. I like it. And if it means Dark Angel Centurions (I just love the models, sorry not sorry) I'm all over it.

That seems needlessly expensive to me. I have to buy a codex for my rules and then buy a supplement for all my units. Yay...


We are space marine players, we are subsidizing all the small armies. One has to accept it, is the price for having the most up to date rules and models.

I was happier when my army was more ignored by GW and didn't get an increasing pile of crap added into it honestly. The worst thing that happened to wolves since I started was GW "updating" them. Almost all of it is trash.



I mean... you can not buy all of those units and models.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:40:49


Post by: pm713


 Galas wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Galas wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Galas wrote:
I was agaisnt the unification in the form most people asking for it wanted it, basically stripping all special options because "muh bloat".

In this way we'll have a core codex with everything up to date and all the special stuff in supplements. So is the best approach. I like it. And if it means Dark Angel Centurions (I just love the models, sorry not sorry) I'm all over it.

That seems needlessly expensive to me. I have to buy a codex for my rules and then buy a supplement for all my units. Yay...


We are space marine players, we are subsidizing all the small armies. One has to accept it, is the price for having the most up to date rules and models.

I was happier when my army was more ignored by GW and didn't get an increasing pile of crap added into it honestly. The worst thing that happened to wolves since I started was GW "updating" them. Almost all of it is trash.



I mean... you can not buy all of those units and models.

That translates into not using most of the codex at this stage. It's not great when most of the pages are full of things I don't use and things I do use are basically intentionally shooting myself in the foot because GW balances rules as well as they write the fluff.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:44:33


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


In fact, let's go over the whole "aircraft redundancy" thing.

Stormtalon - an air-to-ground hover gunship, armed with assault cannons and some form of missile/lascannon/heavy bolter. Two guns, hovering, ground attack.
Stormhawk - an aerial dogfighting interceptor (no bonuses for attacking ground troops, and bonuses when engaging flyers), assault cannons, heavy bolters/missiles, AND a main long-barrel cannon. Three guns, unable to hover, aerial attack.
Nephilim - an air-to-ground non-hovering gunship, with EITHER an assault cannon stand-in or lascannons, heavy bolters, AND missiles. Three guns, unable to hover, ground attack.
Dark Talon - an air-to-ground hover bomber, with a single height powered cannon and a bunch of small arms bolters. Two guns and bombs, hovering, ground attack.

So, we have a ground strafing gunship with VTOL, an aerial supremacy dogfighter, an even more heavily armed pure strafing gunship, and a bomber with no medium strength weaponry.

Sounds like four unique roles to me.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:48:08


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


WhiteDog wrote:
They have the same chassis. There's no more of a "light/heavy" difference than the difference between Predator turrets, or Razorback turrets.
do you know the hunter and the stalker don't have the same gun ?
Yeah, they don't have the same guns. Just like how Predator Executioners and Predator Destructors don't have the same guns, but fill the same combat role of a medium battle tank.

Hunters and Stalkers fill the same role - static AA tank. One goes about it with single target precision, the other goes about it with massed firepower, but both have the same core role.

There's more similarity between those two than there is between any two of the four aircraft mentioned above.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:55:30


Post by: Karol


 Sasori wrote:
This is something people have been asking for a very long time, and I think it's a positive change.



Space marine players asked for being made to buy 2 books instead of one codex for their army? Well I guess stranger things happen daily.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:56:40


Post by: WhiteDog


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
In fact, let's go over the whole "aircraft redundancy" thing.

Stormtalon - an air-to-ground hover gunship, armed with assault cannons and some form of missile/lascannon/heavy bolter. Two guns, hovering, ground attack.
Stormhawk - an aerial dogfighting interceptor (no bonuses for attacking ground troops, and bonuses when engaging flyers), assault cannons, heavy bolters/missiles, AND a main long-barrel cannon. Three guns, unable to hover, aerial attack.
Nephilim - an air-to-ground non-hovering gunship, with EITHER an assault cannon stand-in or lascannons, heavy bolters, AND missiles. Three guns, unable to hover, ground attack.
Dark Talon - an air-to-ground hover bomber, with a single height powered cannon and a bunch of small arms bolters. Two guns and bombs, hovering, ground attack.

So, we have a ground strafing gunship with VTOL, an aerial supremacy dogfighter, an even more heavily armed pure strafing gunship, and a bomber with no medium strength weaponry.

Sounds like four unique roles to me.

"A Nephilim Jetfighter is a variant attack aircraft used exclusively by the Space Marines of the Dark Angels and their Unforgiven Successor Chapters. The Nephilim's primary role is as an atmospheric interceptor, helping to keep the skies clear over the field of battle, protecting their brethren on the ground from the threat of an aerial attack."
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Nephilim_Jetfighter

The Nephilim is an INTERCEPTOR, like the stormhawk it is a air-to-air gunship at first while the Dark Talon is a air-to-ground. They don't have the same guns, but they have the same role. They have missiles designed to take down flyers.

Dark Taon with "single height powered cannon" lol ... It's a warp gun that create a crack, or "rift" into reality. It's an air to ground fighter, similarly to the stormtalon.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:57:47


Post by: Karol


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
They have the same chassis. There's no more of a "light/heavy" difference than the difference between Predator turrets, or Razorback turrets.
do you know the hunter and the stalker don't have the same gun ?
Yeah, they don't have the same guns. Just like how Predator Executioners and Predator Destructors don't have the same guns, but fill the same combat role of a medium battle tank.

Hunters and Stalkers fill the same role - static AA tank. One goes about it with single target precision, the other goes about it with massed firepower, but both have the same core role.

There's more similarity between those two than there is between any two of the four aircraft mentioned above.


Thinking this way makes plague marines indentical to 1ksons, both are troops, tough etc. In fact why not roll in all csm in to one entry.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 15:58:19


Post by: Egyptian Space Zombie


So happy. There are only a few unique units. It lets you put everything in one place and if you want to restrict a unit, you can say so in the codex. It means every chapter gets the rulebook plus their supplement.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 16:02:04


Post by: pm713


Karol wrote:
 Sasori wrote:
This is something people have been asking for a very long time, and I think it's a positive change.



Space marine players asked for being made to buy 2 books instead of one codex for their army? Well I guess stranger things happen daily.

In fairness all the times I saw people ask for it they wanted 1 book not the supplement overcharging. Why they thought they'd get something that wasn't a ripoff is beyond me, it's as likely as them doing what I want...


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 16:02:06


Post by: harlokin


 Galas wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Galas wrote:
I was agaisnt the unification in the form most people asking for it wanted it, basically stripping all special options because "muh bloat".

In this way we'll have a core codex with everything up to date and all the special stuff in supplements. So is the best approach. I like it. And if it means Dark Angel Centurions (I just love the models, sorry not sorry) I'm all over it.

That seems needlessly expensive to me. I have to buy a codex for my rules and then buy a supplement for all my units. Yay...


We are space marine players, we are subsidizing all the small armies. One has to accept it, is the price for having the most up to date rules and models.


What a load of horsegak. The other armies are small because the Space Marines get an overwhelming share of the relseases, fiction, and publicity. Don't kid yourself that you are doing Xenos players a favour.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 16:04:25


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


WhiteDog wrote:
"A Nephilim Jetfighter is a variant attack aircraft used exclusively by the Space Marines of the Dark Angels and their Unforgiven Successor Chapters. The Nephilim's primary role is as an atmospheric interceptor, helping to keep the skies clear over the field of battle, protecting their brethren on the ground from the threat of an aerial attack."
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Nephilim_Jetfighter
Ah, yes, that's why it has rules that... don't have anything to do with that. The Nephilim's rules benefit it's role as a ground attack craft. So, it's rules need to reflect that.

The Nephilim is an INTERCEPTOR, like the stormhawk it is a air-to-air gunship at first while the Dark Talon is a air-to-ground. They don't have the same guns, but they have the same role.
Take that up with the game designers then - there are no anti-air features on the Nephilim, but there is the Strafing Run rule.

Dark Taon with "single height powered cannon" lol ... It's a warp gun that create a crack, or "rift" into reality.
Yes. A high powered cannon. The details aren't exactly important, it's a main cannon that deals massive damage.
It's an air to ground fighter, similarly to the stormtalon.
But that's where the similarities end - it's a bomber, it's weaponry is vastly different in terms of viable combat range (the Stormtalon's weapons are all consistently of a medium-high strength range, whereas the Dark Talon has a massive disparity between the massed small arms fire of the Hurricane Bolters and and the massive single area damage of the Rift Cannon - as well as the bombs!)

One is a bomber, the other is the gunship.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
They have the same chassis. There's no more of a "light/heavy" difference than the difference between Predator turrets, or Razorback turrets.
do you know the hunter and the stalker don't have the same gun ?
Yeah, they don't have the same guns. Just like how Predator Executioners and Predator Destructors don't have the same guns, but fill the same combat role of a medium battle tank.

Hunters and Stalkers fill the same role - static AA tank. One goes about it with single target precision, the other goes about it with massed firepower, but both have the same core role.

There's more similarity between those two than there is between any two of the four aircraft mentioned above.


Thinking this way makes plague marines indentical to 1ksons, both are troops, tough etc.
Plague Marines carry plague weaponry that targets toughness, and carry a bevy of melee weapons. Rubricae carry armour piercing weaponry, and have psychic capabilities. Nowhere near the same.
In fact why not roll in all csm in to one entry.
You clearly haven't been reading my actual comments.

I'm the one IN FAVOUR of having "redundant" things of overlap. Hunters and Stalkers might have the same role, but they don't need to be merged. However, WhiteDog here seems to think that if there's a slight bit of overlap, then the unit just gets deleted.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 16:11:37


Post by: Galas


 harlokin wrote:
 Galas wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Galas wrote:
I was agaisnt the unification in the form most people asking for it wanted it, basically stripping all special options because "muh bloat".

In this way we'll have a core codex with everything up to date and all the special stuff in supplements. So is the best approach. I like it. And if it means Dark Angel Centurions (I just love the models, sorry not sorry) I'm all over it.

That seems needlessly expensive to me. I have to buy a codex for my rules and then buy a supplement for all my units. Yay...


We are space marine players, we are subsidizing all the small armies. One has to accept it, is the price for having the most up to date rules and models.


What a load of horsegak. The other armies are small because the Space Marines get an overwhelming share of the relseases, fiction, and publicity. Don't kid yourself that you are doing Xenos players a favour.


Actually my biggest army is Tau. But I'm sorry, I stand for what I said. Space Marines weren't more relevant back in the day than imperial guard, orks, eldar or even squats. Space Marines were designed on the back of the popularity of Chaos Warriors from Fantasy. No, no matter how much resources GW puts into other armies. Theres a reason in most MMORPG most players play normal humans. Or cute things like Mi'qote in FF or Elves. Space Marines are the most popular because they are designed to be the most popular. Stop this fantasy where big corporations can make things work just because they put money behind it. Look at cocacola or windows. Marketing is always built on the back of social trends and what most people likes.

Dark Eldar or Necron would have never made warhammer as big as it is even if GW had put the same resources on them as they did on Space Marines because they are designed for a more niche audience. An audience that has his value, because they add value to the whole package. But space marine players are the backbone of GW economy , specially in the 1995-2015 period.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 16:16:07


Post by: bullyboy


I'm on the fence and the proof in the pudding will be in execution.

If my DA and DW get access to every single marine dataslate in barebones codex, then I'm totally not impressed. I hope they have a plan to place restrictions on certain units.

I will also need to see how long the wait is between generic and supplement to get access to unique units (otherwise I'll continue to use old dex and PA in that interim).

Biggest concern is Deathwatch...it looks as if GW just have given up on them now, since they will likely just have access to everything (unless my first point sticks)

I do feel that this is exactly the time and place where the new codex should have gone Primaris only. People could have used old SM codex for old marines, and the new dex would be Primaris only with units available to everyone. Otherwise, Deathwatch Thunderfire cannons and centurions?

I'm really going to be interested how they implement Deathwatch kill teams in the new supplement (I'm going to be assume that kill teams will be the only place you get access to SIA, which would make sense and I'd be totally on board with).


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 16:25:18


Post by: Vaktathi


Hey all, there's a lot of reports and angry posting in this thread, if the tone of the conversation can be taken down, it would help the discussion tremendously.

For my part, I've always advocated for most Marine stuff to be consolidated into one book. Marines share the overwhelmingly vast majority of the same stats, wargear, lore, units, weapons, etc across the various different flavors of Marines, and even many of the "unique" units are predicated on pretty trivial differences that often are less minor many units experience between edition changes or are just simple wargear/special rule swaps. A lot of the stuff people gnash teeth over is stuff that often doesn't survive a new codex or edition change either way, or that ultimately has little/no meaningful effect on or reflection in gameplay but makes people feel like they've got something unique to play with when listbuilding. Having a single main book helps consolidate a lot of stuff and get everything working from the same basic starting point and avoids consistency issues across SM armies.

However, given the results of the Space Marine supplements of last year, and GW's insistence on seemingly going out of their way to intentionally bungle the execution of stuff like this, I'm going to be extremely cautious about any optimism. This is a potentially positive move, I really think having a dozen different totally distinct SM codex books is seriously detrimental to both design and play with regards to 40k, but we'll see how well GW actually manages it.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 16:29:27


Post by: pm713


 Galas wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
 Galas wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Galas wrote:
I was agaisnt the unification in the form most people asking for it wanted it, basically stripping all special options because "muh bloat".

In this way we'll have a core codex with everything up to date and all the special stuff in supplements. So is the best approach. I like it. And if it means Dark Angel Centurions (I just love the models, sorry not sorry) I'm all over it.

That seems needlessly expensive to me. I have to buy a codex for my rules and then buy a supplement for all my units. Yay...


We are space marine players, we are subsidizing all the small armies. One has to accept it, is the price for having the most up to date rules and models.


What a load of horsegak. The other armies are small because the Space Marines get an overwhelming share of the relseases, fiction, and publicity. Don't kid yourself that you are doing Xenos players a favour.


Actually my biggest army is Tau. But I'm sorry, I stand for what I said. Space Marines weren't more relevant back in the day than imperial guard, orks, eldar or even squats. Space Marines were designed on the back of the popularity of Chaos Warriors from Fantasy. No, no matter how much resources GW puts into other armies. Theres a reason in most MMORPG most players play normal humans. Or cute things like Mi'qote in FF or Elves. Space Marines are the most popular because they are designed to be the most popular. Stop this fantasy where big corporations can make things work just because they put money behind it. Look at cocacola or windows. Marketing is always built on the back of social trends and what most people likes.

Dark Eldar or Necron would have never made warhammer as big as it is even if GW had put the same resources on them as they did on Space Marines because they are designed for a more niche audience. An audience that has his value, because they add value to the whole package. But space marine players are the backbone of GW economy , specially in the 1995-2015 period.

Yes I'm sure the reason other armies aren't as popular is nothing to do with the systemic neglect and the fact that many of their sprues are older than me. The effort put into 5 different Primaris Lt's could not have been better spent on anything else.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 16:34:41


Post by: Galas


I'm not saying that other armies shouldnt receive better support. What I'm saying is that it is a lie to assume that other armies would have had the same popularty as space marines with the same support,.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 16:34:46


Post by: Dysartes


 Sasori wrote:
This is something people have been asking for a very long time, and I think it's a positive change.



Only if "people" is defined as "annoying online-only vocal minority"...


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 16:36:38


Post by: Umbros



Good change. As a Thousand Sons player primarily I'd also be happy being combined with CSM.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 16:37:02


Post by: Mr Morden


Massively overdue


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 16:37:34


Post by: Spoletta


This was a logical and foreseen step as soon as GW had made every chapter into a snowflake chapter.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 16:39:31


Post by: Kanluwen


 Dysartes wrote:
 Sasori wrote:
This is something people have been asking for a very long time, and I think it's a positive change.



Only if "people" is defined as "annoying online-only vocal minority"...

People can't have it both ways.

There were complaints about needing "too many sources" to build an army while waiting for updated books.
There were complaints about Marines getting "too much attention" whenever these other books got updated--even when it was just copy/pasting bits from the core book into the other books.
There were complaints about how "buffing X made Y broken, but Y was okay with everyone else!".

Now they take steps to alleviate those problems and it's not a good thing? It was "an annoying online-only vocal minority"?


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 16:40:57


Post by: harlokin


 Galas wrote:
I'm not saying that other armies shouldnt receive better support. What I'm saying is that it is a lie to assume that other armies would have had the same popularty as space marines with the same support,.


Frankly, I would be happy if my faction were "subsidised by by the Marine players". If the role of the Xenos is to be a lesser option with substandard rules and product support, then we should pay less for taking part.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 16:41:31


Post by: pm713


Spoletta wrote:
This was a logical and foreseen step as soon as GW had made every chapter into a snowflake chapter.

It's hardly the only step they could have taken though is it?

The easiest one for GW (AKA the one with least effort) but let's not pretend it's the only option.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 16:42:13


Post by: Eldarsif


As a Dark Angel player since 1999 I have to say that I love this change.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 16:43:02


Post by: Phenatix


Roll 'em up!


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 16:45:56


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Good for consolidation. I've been saying it's been overdue for a LONG time.

HOWEVER GW took the GW route. Instead of just selecting a few Strats or units to put in the codex, we instead get $upplements again.

Also think Deathwatch should be rolled into a general Inquisition codex but we should've seen this one coming based on the fact Preferred Enemy was an available choice for custom traits in 2.0


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 16:55:55


Post by: Voss


pm713 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
This was a logical and foreseen step as soon as GW had made every chapter into a snowflake chapter.

It's hardly the only step they could have taken though is it?

The easiest one for GW (AKA the one with least effort) but let's not pretend it's the only option.

No, the easiest would be one BRB sized (and priced) volume and possibly actually gutting the range.

Or leaving as is, which actually isn't very different from what they're doing. But this way it reduces a lot of duplication and update issues on OUR end. Or have we forgotten the days of DA and BT with different (worse) storm shields or even the seemingly endless rollout of PA? And the sheer volume of complaints that generated? That won't happen again with this.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 16:57:39


Post by: Mr Morden


 Galas wrote:
I'm not saying that other armies shouldnt receive better support. What I'm saying is that it is a lie to assume that other armies would have had the same popularty as space marines with the same support,.


And you have the evidence to prove this is a lie No you don't because its never been tried so how could you?

Interested to see how they structure the consolodation given all the previously dicussed options to make it work.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 17:26:01


Post by: solkan


I’m pretty baffled. There’s an article saying:
* There’s going to be a revised Space Marine codex that’ll be for everyone currently using the Space Marine Codex.
* All of the Psychic Awakening stuff will still be valid
* If you currently have a Space Marine supplement codex (Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Deathwatch) there will be a second book for you in the future. Specifically, by name those four groups.

Oh, no. That’s terrible news.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 17:31:46


Post by: NinthMusketeer


My first thought was that it kind of sucks to go from being one's own army to needing $70 in new codex, but after thinking about it I see the appeal. And shifting from one design style to another was going to have some pain any way it got sliced, might as well pull the band aid off now at the start of a new edition.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 17:35:07


Post by: Mr Morden


 solkan wrote:
I’m pretty baffled. There’s an article saying:
* There’s going to be a revised Space Marine codex that’ll be for everyone currently using the Space Marine Codex.
* All of the Psychic Awakening stuff will still be valid
* If you currently have a Space Marine supplement codex (Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Deathwatch) there will be a second book for you in the future. Specifically, by name those four groups.

Oh, no. That’s terrible news.


It does sound like a mess.....but I guess they want to keep selling those supplement books. AND the Wovles and Angels will still get the same super special treatment that they have always had in terms of special models, special upgrade packs etc.

Just means we won't have dozens of pages of reprints when the do the next campaign or SM Codex in about a year.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 17:37:10


Post by: pm713


 Mr Morden wrote:
 solkan wrote:
I’m pretty baffled. There’s an article saying:
* There’s going to be a revised Space Marine codex that’ll be for everyone currently using the Space Marine Codex.
* All of the Psychic Awakening stuff will still be valid
* If you currently have a Space Marine supplement codex (Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Deathwatch) there will be a second book for you in the future. Specifically, by name those four groups.

Oh, no. That’s terrible news.


It does sound like a mess.....but I guess they want to keep selling those supplement books. AND the Wovles and Angels will still get the same super special treatment that they have always had in terms of special models, special upgrade packs etc.

Just means we won't have dozens of pages of reprints when the do the next campaign or SM Codex in about a year.

Where's this article?

Also HA! Wolves get special treatment, that's funny.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 17:37:53


Post by: Mr Morden


pm713 wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 solkan wrote:
I’m pretty baffled. There’s an article saying:
* There’s going to be a revised Space Marine codex that’ll be for everyone currently using the Space Marine Codex.
* All of the Psychic Awakening stuff will still be valid
* If you currently have a Space Marine supplement codex (Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Deathwatch) there will be a second book for you in the future. Specifically, by name those four groups.

Oh, no. That’s terrible news.


It does sound like a mess.....but I guess they want to keep selling those supplement books. AND the Wovles and Angels will still get the same super special treatment that they have always had in terms of special models, special upgrade packs etc.

Just means we won't have dozens of pages of reprints when the do the next campaign or SM Codex in about a year.

Where's this article?

Also HA! Wolves get special treatment, that's funny.


Come on Wolves get loads of it - starting in the Lore and continuing in the vast model range,


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 17:45:32


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Not just the lore but Space Wolves have the absolute worst plot armor


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 17:46:12


Post by: pm713


 Mr Morden wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
 solkan wrote:
I’m pretty baffled. There’s an article saying:
* There’s going to be a revised Space Marine codex that’ll be for everyone currently using the Space Marine Codex.
* All of the Psychic Awakening stuff will still be valid
* If you currently have a Space Marine supplement codex (Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Deathwatch) there will be a second book for you in the future. Specifically, by name those four groups.

Oh, no. That’s terrible news.


It does sound like a mess.....but I guess they want to keep selling those supplement books. AND the Wovles and Angels will still get the same super special treatment that they have always had in terms of special models, special upgrade packs etc.

Just means we won't have dozens of pages of reprints when the do the next campaign or SM Codex in about a year.

Where's this article?

Also HA! Wolves get special treatment, that's funny.


Come on Wolves get loads of it - starting in the Lore and continuing in the vast model range,

Oh I'm not denying they get things they shouldn't, I just find it funny you say it like a positive. Look at the special things they've had recently: Stormfang/Wolf, Stormrider, Wulfen, Shield Dread/Wulfen Dread, Murderfang.

Of those perhaps one (shield dread) isn't an atrocity in terms of model, fluff, gameplay or multiples of the above. If I could remove everything GW added in their 'special' treatment I would in a heartbeat.

Plus most of the Marines additions are quite blatantly meant as Marines with other factions as an afterthought. I won't talk about the lore because that just ends in a massive tangent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Not just the lore but Space Wolves have the absolute worst plot armor

I would draw your attention to the Ultrasmurfs at this time.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 17:54:09


Post by: Mr Morden


Nah Wolves have far more plot armour - they have major wars against the Imperiums (Church, Grey Knights and Dark Angels) and harbour mutants.

They now have almost a warship for each Marine squad.

I donlt like pretty much all the new Wolf Wolfy Wolf models so have ignored them for my army but we can't pretend that there are not huge quantiies of them compared to any other sub-sub faction and in fact most full factions.

The Primaris Marines are far less offensive to me and have a place in my SW army rather the abominations you rightly disparage


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 17:55:02


Post by: WhiteDog


 Kanluwen wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
 Sasori wrote:
This is something people have been asking for a very long time, and I think it's a positive change.



Only if "people" is defined as "annoying online-only vocal minority"...

People can't have it both ways.

There were complaints about needing "too many sources" to build an army while waiting for updated books.
There were complaints about Marines getting "too much attention" whenever these other books got updated--even when it was just copy/pasting bits from the core book into the other books.
There were complaints about how "buffing X made Y broken, but Y was okay with everyone else!".

Now they take steps to alleviate those problems and it's not a good thing? It was "an annoying online-only vocal minority"?

People complain that there are "too many sources".

GW's solution to "alleviate" those problems : force DA/SW/BA into buying two books.



Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 18:02:04


Post by: pm713


 Mr Morden wrote:
Nah Wolves have far more plot armour - they have major wars against the Imperiums (Church, Grey Knights and Dark Angels) and harbour mutants.

They now have almost a warship for each Marine squad.

I donlt like pretty much all the new Wolf Wolfy Wolf models so have ignored them for my army but we can't pretend that there are not huge quantiies of them compared to any other sub-sub faction and in fact most full factions.

The Primaris Marines are far less offensive to me and have a place in my SW army rather the abominations you rightly disparage

They responded to an Ecclesiarchal invasion, fought an Inquisitor so incompetent the Grey Knights wanted to assassinate him and barely do more than duel DA as a tradition. Oh and they have Wulfen which they keep secret even though they're put their by the Emperor.

UM operate as a Legion in multiple respects, have their own mini Empire, get to send Marines into the EoT and just bring them back.

BA and all Successors, Salamanders, Black Dragons and Raven Guard all have mutation with less of an excuse. BT are a literal Legion. Marines Malevolent steal from the Ad Mech. But sure Wolves are the ones with plot armour.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 18:08:32


Post by: Mr Morden


pm713 wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Nah Wolves have far more plot armour - they have major wars against the Imperiums (Church, Grey Knights and Dark Angels) and harbour mutants.

They now have almost a warship for each Marine squad.

I donlt like pretty much all the new Wolf Wolfy Wolf models so have ignored them for my army but we can't pretend that there are not huge quantiies of them compared to any other sub-sub faction and in fact most full factions.

The Primaris Marines are far less offensive to me and have a place in my SW army rather the abominations you rightly disparage

They responded to an Ecclesiarchal invasion, fought an Inquisitor so incompetent the Grey Knights wanted to assassinate him and barely do more than duel DA as a tradition. Oh and they have Wulfen which they keep secret even though they're put their by the Emperor.

UM operate as a Legion in multiple respects, have their own mini Empire, get to send Marines into the EoT and just bring them back.

BA and all Successors, Salamanders, Black Dragons and Raven Guard all have mutation with less of an excuse. BT are a literal Legion. Marines Malevolent steal from the Ad Mech. But sure Wolves are the ones with plot armour.


Not really the thread to talk about this happy to talk re PM or new thread but come on the Wolves have plot armour so thick its obscene.

Spoiler:
They fired first against the Church....they had a massive war with the Grey Knights......they just fought another way against the Dark Angels, they hide their mutation.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 18:09:53


Post by: pm713


 Mr Morden wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Nah Wolves have far more plot armour - they have major wars against the Imperiums (Church, Grey Knights and Dark Angels) and harbour mutants.

They now have almost a warship for each Marine squad.

I donlt like pretty much all the new Wolf Wolfy Wolf models so have ignored them for my army but we can't pretend that there are not huge quantiies of them compared to any other sub-sub faction and in fact most full factions.

The Primaris Marines are far less offensive to me and have a place in my SW army rather the abominations you rightly disparage

They responded to an Ecclesiarchal invasion, fought an Inquisitor so incompetent the Grey Knights wanted to assassinate him and barely do more than duel DA as a tradition. Oh and they have Wulfen which they keep secret even though they're put their by the Emperor.

UM operate as a Legion in multiple respects, have their own mini Empire, get to send Marines into the EoT and just bring them back.

BA and all Successors, Salamanders, Black Dragons and Raven Guard all have mutation with less of an excuse. BT are a literal Legion. Marines Malevolent steal from the Ad Mech. But sure Wolves are the ones with plot armour.


Not really the thread to talk about this happy to talk re PM or new thread

Spoiler:
They fired first against the Church....they had a massive war with the Grey Knights......they just fought another way against the Dark Angels, they hide their mutation.

I'd make a thread in the background forum, I'm terrible at PMs.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 18:12:05


Post by: WhiteDog


People, and especially vanilla SM players, just rage on SW out of jealousy, and it's pretty pathetic to witness.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 18:15:40


Post by: Grimskul


If this means that it's easier for them to spread out non-marine releases in some way, then yeah I'm up for it. Given GW's track record though, I'm expecting a bunch of other marine books still being released alongside this one before they scrap half of them for another edition.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 18:16:06


Post by: Mr Morden


WhiteDog wrote:
People, and especially vanilla SM players, just rage on SW out of jealousy, and it's pretty pathetic to witness.


As someone with a large SW army and increasingly ashamed of what they have become the lore and wolf wolf models are just horible adn embaressing.



Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 18:17:09


Post by: pm713


 Mr Morden wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
People, and especially vanilla SM players, just rage on SW out of jealousy, and it's pretty pathetic to witness.


As someone with a large SW army and increasingly ashamed of what they have become the lore and wolf wolf models are just horible adn embaressing.


This is part of why I stopped playing my Wolves. I want to get back in but they just keep pushing me away...


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 18:25:03


Post by: Racerguy180


the wolves used to be cool...but then wolfymcwolferton happened.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 18:28:10


Post by: tulun


I think this is a positive change for the game.

I feel if some flavour is lost, but they've had to errata the same rules a dozen times (like Duty Eternal) because each of these bloody chapters has their own versions of the same stratagem.

They need some rules consolidation. Also, if they piecemeal the supplements, they can keep "marines updates" constant while also allowing Xenos / Chaos to get more frequent updates too. If Space Wolves / Blood Angels / Dark Angels take up a whole codex release, it means longer wait times for a lot of other armies that get very little love.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 18:28:23


Post by: Kanluwen


Wolfy McWolferton's always been there.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 18:30:28


Post by: Blackie


Big NO. I couldn't care less about other chapters.

I wouldn't want a 1000 pages book or one of the current average size but with lots of reduced stuff for my chapter.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 18:31:10


Post by: BaconCatBug


For me it was more when Logan "I started a civil war with the Grey Knights and literally decapitated a Grand Master on the bridge of his own warship for being a dishonourable douche-canoe for trying to assassinate me" Grimnar decided to roll over and let those same Grey Knights genocide his homeworld because GW needed some excuse to push Primaris reinforcements onto the SW.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 18:31:37


Post by: Vector Strike


They're doing the best of both worlds: just a single codex + a supplement for each first founding.

Completely agree with this.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 18:32:36


Post by: Blackie


Racerguy180 wrote:
the wolves used to be cool...but then wolfymcwolferton happened.


It's the only reason why I like a SM chapter


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 18:36:10


Post by: Mr Morden


 Kanluwen wrote:
Wolfy McWolferton's always been there.


No sign of him in the original Chapter Approved book with the SW vs Orks campaign or Rogue Trader


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 18:36:52


Post by: bullyboy


 Grimskul wrote:
If this means that it's easier for them to spread out non-marine releases in some way, then yeah I'm up for it. Given GW's track record though, I'm expecting a bunch of other marine books still being released alongside this one before they scrap half of them for another edition.


This is the biggest bonus to me, if it reduces the amount of release time for marines in general (looking at you PA) then it gives more time to improve things like Craftworlds etc. I am all for that. The number of marine kits compared to Xenos is off the charts. Great for the Necron players currently, hope others get the same treatment. Could you imagine Drukhari getting a proper "court" with multiple HQ options? That would be great.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 18:40:01


Post by: Blastaar


Putting all marines in one book is fine with me- as long as DA, BA, etc. keep their unique units, rules, organization and so on. I greatly dislike that I would need to purchase the codex and a supplement to play my DA in 9th. Pure cash-grab.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 18:42:23


Post by: pm713


 Kanluwen wrote:
Wolfy McWolferton's always been there.

It used to be much less of an issue though. As did the stupid naming in general...


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 18:43:25


Post by: Mr Morden


Blastaar wrote:
Putting all marines in one book is fine with me- as long as DA, BA, etc. keep their unique units, rules, organization and so on.


They will - most of them would be catered for by a single line in a dataslate but they will likely keep them.

Organisation is mostly lore so it will be adjusted to incoprorate Primaris as with every other SM chapter.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 18:44:31


Post by: ccs


WhiteDog wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
 Sasori wrote:
This is something people have been asking for a very long time, and I think it's a positive change.



Only if "people" is defined as "annoying online-only vocal minority"...

People can't have it both ways.

There were complaints about needing "too many sources" to build an army while waiting for updated books.
There were complaints about Marines getting "too much attention" whenever these other books got updated--even when it was just copy/pasting bits from the core book into the other books.
There were complaints about how "buffing X made Y broken, but Y was okay with everyone else!".

Now they take steps to alleviate those problems and it's not a good thing? It was "an annoying online-only vocal minority"?

People complain that there are "too many sources".

GW's solution to "alleviate" those problems : force DA/SW/BA into buying two books.



Ok,to be fair I already did that. I'd buy the basic Marine codex & then I'd buy my DA & SW codex. I've never minded owning 3 books. Because I play Marines, SW & DA. I just pull wichever one I intend to use off the shelf & into the gaming bag.
With this? Now I'll still own 3 books, but I'll have to pull TWO books to do the job of one.
And you lot call this progress & sing its praises....


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 18:51:33


Post by: Inquisitor Lord Katherine


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So, with the new Space Marine Codex on the horizon (bit too soon for my tastes), with all new merging all power armoured Imperial Space Marines into one book, with unique traits being represented via supplements, it seems.

Worst thing to happen to your faction? Exactly what you wanted? Discuss!


You know, I would have been all for this less than a year ago, and then supplements happened, and now this makes me unhappy because I hate buying books.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 20:13:14


Post by: Dysartes


 Vector Strike wrote:
They're doing the best of both worlds: just a single codex + a supplement for each first founding.


"Best" is an interesting synonym for "worst", Vector, especially for any player who previously played one of the Chapters getting mugged here.

And that's not even touching the weirdness of claiming the Deathwatch follow the Codex Astartes - has whoever made that claim not read their background, FFS?


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 20:22:17


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 Dysartes wrote:
And that's not even touching the weirdness of claiming the Deathwatch follow the Codex Astartes - has whoever made that claim not read their background, FFS?
I think it's less that they follow the Codex, and more that they use more or less exactly the same units that the core Space Marine book does.

A simple page explaining how Deathwatch get access to, say, Deathwatch Veterans as a Troops choice, but lose out on Tactical Squads, for example.

Saves them having nearly an identical codex barring like four units, and needing a whole new book.

I think the big thing this will encourage is doing multiple Chapters and freedom in Chapter selection. Now, if you want to play nearly ANY Space Marine Chapter, you only need to pick up that one book, and you can specialise down the line. For new players, that's got to be incredibly liberating - now, instead of needing to explain to them when they first show interest in Space Marines how you need to choose immediately between the normal book, the grey marines, green marines, and red marines, you can just point them straight to the core Codex.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 20:33:40


Post by: Voss


 Dysartes wrote:
 Vector Strike wrote:
They're doing the best of both worlds: just a single codex + a supplement for each first founding.


"Best" is an interesting synonym for "worst", Vector, especially for any player who previously played one of the Chapters getting mugged here.

And that's not even touching the weirdness of claiming the Deathwatch follow the Codex Astartes - has whoever made that claim not read their background, FFS?


Who made that claim? Its not like Salamanders have a codex organization, yet they're part of the general marine codex.
You're mistaking a common reference book for building a list for games as a change in lore.

All the shared stuff goes in the main marine book (and as a result all the common updates in the future happen to everyone), the special units and background information for the special snowflakes goes in their supplements.

if its just a complaint about buying two books, then fine, I get that.
But no one is losing their special background or special stuff.

Really- practical experiment here- take all the common datasheets out of <XX> chapter (or deathwatch) codex, and the descriptive unit entries, and the common background (not the 'this chapter is...' background, but the 'a space marine is...', 'the Imperium is...'. How many pages are left? Is it significantly greater than the ultramarine supplement?

Also consider GW. After wave after wave after wave of marine releases, is anyone _really_ expecting that they're going to stop selling (and making) special chapter kits?
Really, GW is going to stop selling marine kits because they're attached to a supplement rather than a separate codex? How likely is that?
I don't think that passes a logic test.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 20:41:42


Post by: Lord Damocles


They're not all being merged into one book though.

By the time Red, Green, Grey and Black/Silver Marines have got their supplements there will still be the same number of Marine books as there are now.


If I had my way, there would be a single book with no extra supplements.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 20:43:57


Post by: BaconCatBug


 Lord Damocles wrote:
They're not all being merged into one book though.

By the time Red, Green, Grey and Black/Silver Marines have got their supplements there will still be the same number of Marine books as there are now.


If I had my way, there would be a single book with no extra supplements.
So anyone who doesn't want to play SW or BA are told to pound sand and pay for rules they don't want?


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 20:45:23


Post by: Jimbobbyish


IMO the main codex will have all of the primaris stuff and other shared units. Stuff like uniquely named units like DC, deathwing, wolfguard etc will be in supplement books, unless a lot of old marines end up in Legends.

I just want my TWC to live on!


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 20:48:43


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
And that's not even touching the weirdness of claiming the Deathwatch follow the Codex Astartes - has whoever made that claim not read their background, FFS?
I think it's less that they follow the Codex, and more that they use more or less exactly the same units that the core Space Marine book does.

A simple page explaining how Deathwatch get access to, say, Deathwatch Veterans as a Troops choice, but lose out on Tactical Squads, for example.

Saves them having nearly an identical codex barring like four units, and needing a whole new book.

I think the big thing this will encourage is doing multiple Chapters and freedom in Chapter selection. Now, if you want to play nearly ANY Space Marine Chapter, you only need to pick up that one book, and you can specialise down the line. For new players, that's got to be incredibly liberating - now, instead of needing to explain to them when they first show interest in Space Marines how you need to choose immediately between the normal book, the grey marines, green marines, and red marines, you can just point them straight to the core Codex.

Which is why Deathwatch should've just been in an Inquisitorial codex instead. Could've covered Grey Knights, Deathwatch, and if not Sisters then something else.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 20:51:44


Post by: pm713


Jimbobbyish wrote:
IMO the main codex will have all of the primaris stuff and other shared units. Stuff like uniquely named units like DC, deathwing, wolfguard etc will be in supplement books, unless a lot of old marines end up in Legends.

I just want my TWC to live on!

Ngl if all the uniquely named Wolf stuff ended up in a supplement I'd just buy the supplement.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 20:55:13


Post by: Jimbobbyish


pm713 wrote:
Jimbobbyish wrote:
IMO the main codex will have all of the primaris stuff and other shared units. Stuff like uniquely named units like DC, deathwing, wolfguard etc will be in supplement books, unless a lot of old marines end up in Legends.

I just want my TWC to live on!

Ngl if all the uniquely named Wolf stuff ended up in a supplement I'd just buy the supplement.

I just had the same thought lol


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 21:11:25


Post by: Kanluwen


Jimbobbyish wrote:
IMO the main codex will have all of the primaris stuff and other shared units. Stuff like uniquely named units like DC, deathwing, wolfguard etc will be in supplement books, unless a lot of old marines end up in Legends.

I just want my TWC to live on!

That's exactly how the current batch of supplements are right now.

Everything 'vanilla' is in the main Codex. The supplements have the named characters and specific units(Victrix Guard, Tyrannic War Veterans, etc for Ultramarines) present along with unique relics, special issue wargear(relics for sergeants!), and stratagems/warlord traits.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 21:13:52


Post by: pm713


I had to google what those were and damn, it hammers home the double standards some people have about the Wolves/Angels.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 21:16:03


Post by: Kanluwen


The Victrix Guard and Veterans? Yeah...it's a bit daft.

Victrix Guard are extremely irritating because they're fluffed as the 'bodyguard unit' for Calgar...so he gets a bodyguard unit but Shrike, the guy who just took over for a Chapter who lost their Chapter Master, doesn't?


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 21:17:19


Post by: BaconCatBug


 Kanluwen wrote:
The Victrix Guard and Veterans? Yeah...it's a bit daft.

Victrix Guard are extremely irritating because they're fluffed as the 'bodyguard unit' for Calgar...so he gets a bodyguard unit but Shrike, the guy who just took over for a Chapter who lost their Chapter Master, doesn't?
Shrike is too busy purging heretics and listening to "Purging with my Kin" by Linkin Loyalists while lamenting that mom just doesn't understand to have a bodyguard.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 21:18:57


Post by: pm713


I find it very odd. Like unless there's some obscure fluff I don't know, Tyrannic War Veterans are literally Marines who fought Tyranids before and got special stuff because. So why doesn't everyone have those?

I'd get it if they were deathwatch or fluffed as marines from a destroyed chapter that went around giving special training but they're just smurfs who fought tyranids.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 21:23:44


Post by: Lord Damocles


 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
They're not all being merged into one book though.

By the time Red, Green, Grey and Black/Silver Marines have got their supplements there will still be the same number of Marine books as there are now.


If I had my way, there would be a single book with no extra supplements.
So anyone who doesn't want to play SW or BA are told to pound sand and pay for rules they don't want?

In my perfect world, Grey and Red Marines wouldn't have different rules


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 21:28:21


Post by: pm713


 Lord Damocles wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
They're not all being merged into one book though.

By the time Red, Green, Grey and Black/Silver Marines have got their supplements there will still be the same number of Marine books as there are now.


If I had my way, there would be a single book with no extra supplements.
So anyone who doesn't want to play SW or BA are told to pound sand and pay for rules they don't want?

In my perfect world, Grey and Red Marines wouldn't have different rules

Why?


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 21:44:02


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


Long term - If the DA keep their unique units such as Deathwing Knights, Ravenwing Knights, Deathwing and Ravenwing Apothecary, Champion etc, Dark Talons, Nephilim and our characters then I can live with having two books. I suppose I've had two since PA Ritual of the Damned came out.

Short term - Depends how much DA is accessible with the new Codex and now long until the Supplement comes out. Guess I'll be Primarising for a bit.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 22:00:35


Post by: Lord Damocles


pm713 wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
They're not all being merged into one book though.

By the time Red, Green, Grey and Black/Silver Marines have got their supplements there will still be the same number of Marine books as there are now.


If I had my way, there would be a single book with no extra supplements.
So anyone who doesn't want to play SW or BA are told to pound sand and pay for rules they don't want?

In my perfect world, Grey and Red Marines wouldn't have different rules

Why?

Because character doesn't come from being able to stick a frag cannon on your Dreadnought for no apparent reason, or being able to mix Terminator weapons arbitrarily.

You want to play Blood Angels? Well paint your guys in Blood Angels iconography and markings, take thematically appropriate units.
Want Space Wolves? Paint your guys in Wolfy iconography and markings, cover them in furs, and take thematically appropriate units.
Dark Angels? Paint your guys in Dark Angels iconography and markings, take thematically appropriate units.
It's a system which works fine for Hawk Lords, Fire Angels, Mentors etc. already.

Dark Angels don't need to be the only Marines who can take Terminator Apothecaries and plasma cannons to make them Dark Angels.
Blood Angels don't need an inferior Ironclad which can swap out it's defining melee armaments for guns (???) to be Blood Angels
There's no reason for the Space Wolves to have never received any Thunderfire Cannons.

How about we let Salamanders have their Predator sponson heavy flamers back rather than restricting them to Blood Angels for no reason?
Why do Death Company and Wulfen need to be distinct unit entries when they both represent the same basic concept? How about we have a single unit which will also let Black Dragons take Dragon Claws, and Sons of Anteus take Abominations?
What about letting Raven Guard take jump pack Command Squads/Shrike's Wing again?
Those Centurions Dark Angels ought to have? Lets let them take them finally!
Oh, you want your Black Templars to be able to take a Furioso like the illustration in their 4th ed. Codex? Let's make it happen!

Don't think your Space Wolves should be running ten-strong Long Fangs packs? Well don't take more than six Devastators.
Want your Ultramarines Terminators to be restricted to single loadouts per squad rather than mixing weapons? Well you don't need the rules to force that restriction on you.
Don't want your Red Templars to take Librarians? Just don't take one!


Also because the current glut of Marine rules are a bloated abomination.
Seriously - count up how many Dreadnought entries there are alone.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 22:07:10


Post by: Crimson


^
Well said.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 22:08:33


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Crimson wrote:
^
Well said.


Aye it's also how some factions in the past worked, and it was beautifull...


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 22:10:11


Post by: Cruentus


 Lord Damocles wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
They're not all being merged into one book though.

By the time Red, Green, Grey and Black/Silver Marines have got their supplements there will still be the same number of Marine books as there are now.


If I had my way, there would be a single book with no extra supplements.
So anyone who doesn't want to play SW or BA are told to pound sand and pay for rules they don't want?

In my perfect world, Grey and Red Marines wouldn't have different rules

Why?

Because character doesn't come from being able to stick a frag cannon on your Dreadnought for no apparent reason, or being able to mix Terminator weapons arbitrarily.

You want to play Blood Angels? Well paint your guys in Blood Angels iconography and markings, take thematically appropriate units.
Want Space Wolves? Paint your guys in Wolfy iconography and markings, cover them in furs, and take thematically appropriate units.
Dark Angels? Paint your guys in Dark Angels iconography and markings, take thematically appropriate units.
It's a system which works fine for Hawk Lords, Fire Angels, Mentors etc. already.

Dark Angels don't need to be the only Marines who can take Terminator Apothecaries and plasma cannons to make them Dark Angels.
Blood Angels don't need an inferior Ironclad which can swap out it's defining melee armaments for guns (???) to be Blood Angels
There's no reason for the Space Wolves to have never received any Thunderfire Cannons.

How about we let Salamanders have their Predator sponson heavy flamers back rather than restricting them to Blood Angels for no reason?
Why do Death Company and Wulfen need to be distinct unit entries when they both represent the same basic concept? How about we have a single unit which will also let Black Dragons take Dragon Claws, and Sons of Anteus take Abominations?
What about letting Raven Guard take jump pack Command Squads/Shrike's Wing again?
Those Centurions Dark Angels ought to have? Lets let them take them finally!
Oh, you want your Black Templars to be able to take a Furioso like the illustration in their 4th ed. Codex? Let's make it happen!

Don't think your Space Wolves should be running ten-strong Long Fangs packs? Well don't take more than six Devastators.
Want your Ultramarines Terminators to be restricted to single loadouts per squad rather than mixing weapons? Well you don't need the rules to force that restriction on you.
Don't want your Red Templars to take Librarians? Just don't take one!


Also because the current glut of Marine rules are a bloated abomination.
Seriously - count up how many Dreadnought entries there are alone.


I find your ideas intriguing, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Having been playing since 2nd ed, it doesn’t matter how many books they put out, I’ve been a FT (BA) player for a long time, and have always needed multiple books. So this change would be yet another ‘no change’ as far as I’m concerned. And besides, GW will change their mind before the end of the year anyway.

I agree with the above, the actual differences were always to make the new stuff interesting to buyers, and had little in game benefit except to make older units - hello assault marines! - seem pathetic by comparison. Tidying up, and allowing options, which allows you to follow the game fluff ‘if you want’ or to play the rules as they are for your particular brand of Dark Angels, then go for it. You can do it. It’s actually less limiting to cut out all the bloat, as outlined above.

Keep in mind, that all of those data sheets also come with models, which bloats the model count, the manufacturing capacity, and the inability of stores to carry everything you might want.



Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 22:14:17


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Don't forget Terminators as squad Sergeants which was an Iron Hand thing for a while.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 22:15:55


Post by: Gadzilla666


Not Online!!! wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
^
Well said.


Aye it's also how some factions in the past worked, and it was beautifull...

Yes, csm 3.5 and IA 13, yes.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 22:24:33


Post by: Blastaar


Spoiler:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
pm713 wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
They're not all being merged into one book though.

By the time Red, Green, Grey and Black/Silver Marines have got their supplements there will still be the same number of Marine books as there are now.


If I had my way, there would be a single book with no extra supplements.
So anyone who doesn't want to play SW or BA are told to pound sand and pay for rules they don't want?

In my perfect world, Grey and Red Marines wouldn't have different rules

Why?

Because character doesn't come from being able to stick a frag cannon on your Dreadnought for no apparent reason, or being able to mix Terminator weapons arbitrarily.

You want to play Blood Angels? Well paint your guys in Blood Angels iconography and markings, take thematically appropriate units.
Want Space Wolves? Paint your guys in Wolfy iconography and markings, cover them in furs, and take thematically appropriate units.
Dark Angels? Paint your guys in Dark Angels iconography and markings, take thematically appropriate units.
It's a system which works fine for Hawk Lords, Fire Angels, Mentors etc. already.

Dark Angels don't need to be the only Marines who can take Terminator Apothecaries and plasma cannons to make them Dark Angels.
Blood Angels don't need an inferior Ironclad which can swap out it's defining melee armaments for guns (???) to be Blood Angels
There's no reason for the Space Wolves to have never received any Thunderfire Cannons.

How about we let Salamanders have their Predator sponson heavy flamers back rather than restricting them to Blood Angels for no reason?
Why do Death Company and Wulfen need to be distinct unit entries when they both represent the same basic concept? How about we have a single unit which will also let Black Dragons take Dragon Claws, and Sons of Anteus take Abominations?
What about letting Raven Guard take jump pack Command Squads/Shrike's Wing again?
Those Centurions Dark Angels ought to have? Lets let them take them finally!
Oh, you want your Black Templars to be able to take a Furioso like the illustration in their 4th ed. Codex? Let's make it happen!

Don't think your Space Wolves should be running ten-strong Long Fangs packs? Well don't take more than six Devastators.
Want your Ultramarines Terminators to be restricted to single loadouts per squad rather than mixing weapons? Well you don't need the rules to force that restriction on you.
Don't want your Red Templars to take Librarians? Just don't take one!


Also because the current glut of Marine rules are a bloated abomination.
Seriously - count up how many Dreadnought entries there are alone.


I agree with you to an extent- Ideally, we wouldn't have chapter tactics or any such nonsense because the game is mechanically interesting enough to accommodate various play styles within the same army. However, part of what is interesting about the chapters with special units is those units, which should facilitate the fighting style of their respective chapters. Nor is it necessarily healthy for the game if, say, every chapter had bikers with double plasma guns. Those units are part of the chapter's identity.

The problem, as always, is that there is so very little in the core rules for codex rules to interact with to create unique, interesting play styles and identities for the various armies.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 22:26:48


Post by: WhiteDog


You guys are ten years too late. This discussion is boring : "it's just marine with a different color" ... that's what DA/SW/BA were back in the third ed.
The only thing that bother me slightly with all your argument around bloat is that it is nonsensical. It is not DA/SW/BA that are at the source of a bloat, it is not DA/SW/BA that make stores unable to "carry everything you might want". When was the last time you saw a sizeable number of DA kit in a GW store ? This is nonsense and people should just recognize that the argument is dumb.

Let's take a side step and actually think about what is happening : GW is releasing in the indomitus box nothing less than 9 new models for SM. Out of those 9 new models, we can believe than at least 6 will get kits. Adding to that, GW already informed us that they will release a new chaplain on bike, a new buggy, a new primaris techmarine, a new techmarine with his gun, a new fortification for SM, and now a new tank. I might be missing something but it's sufficient enough : in the early days of the 9th, GW is releasing nothing less than 12 new SM units/kits.
And that's not even taking into consideration all the units that GW released between the two v8 SM codexes.
Here is where the bloat is coming from : GW is releasing, at an alarming pace, a new line for the SM. And when all is done, we all know they will put almost all of the old marine in the legend category. In the mean time, the SM just have too much units and people, short sighted as they are and unable to see the forest, actually think DA/SW/BA are somewhat responsible in anything.

Finally, RULE WISE the supplements are actually at the source of a huge bloat : in the DA/SW/BA stand alone codex, there are less relics/strat/psychic powers than in a the combined SM+supplement format. Rule wise, this two-book essential SM combo effectively gave SM a terrible advantage over other armies because they got almost twice the number of stratagem, twice the number of relics, etc. It was basically PA's job to even out the play field by giving more stratagem to other armies. This will not happen in early v9 : get ready for a SM dominated meta.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 22:30:31


Post by: Blastaar


 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
They're not all being merged into one book though.

By the time Red, Green, Grey and Black/Silver Marines have got their supplements there will still be the same number of Marine books as there are now.


If I had my way, there would be a single book with no extra supplements.
So anyone who doesn't want to play SW or BA are told to pound sand and pay for rules they don't want?


Like how Raven Guard players have to pay for rules for Calgar, or Sallies pay for IF chapter tactics? Or marine players who dislike primaris? Eldar that don't spam wraiths?


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 22:36:05


Post by: BaconCatBug


Blastaar wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
They're not all being merged into one book though.

By the time Red, Green, Grey and Black/Silver Marines have got their supplements there will still be the same number of Marine books as there are now.


If I had my way, there would be a single book with no extra supplements.
So anyone who doesn't want to play SW or BA are told to pound sand and pay for rules they don't want?


Like how Raven Guard players have to pay for rules for Calgar, or Sallies pay for IF chapter tactics? Or marine players who dislike primaris? Eldar that don't spam wraiths?
You do know Calgar is in the Ultramarines supplement, right? And the rules for the IF Chapter Tactics are all of 1 paragraph.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 22:47:07


Post by: blaktoof


But they aren't being rolled Into one book.

There will be a space Marines codex book
And then each chapter will get a supplement book, BA, SW, DA, DW included.

We already know supplements will include new unit options from 8th format doing so.

That's two books.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 22:53:26


Post by: Blastaar


 BaconCatBug wrote:
Blastaar wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
They're not all being merged into one book though.

By the time Red, Green, Grey and Black/Silver Marines have got their supplements there will still be the same number of Marine books as there are now.


If I had my way, there would be a single book with no extra supplements.
So anyone who doesn't want to play SW or BA are told to pound sand and pay for rules they don't want?


Like how Raven Guard players have to pay for rules for Calgar, or Sallies pay for IF chapter tactics? Or marine players who dislike primaris? Eldar that don't spam wraiths?
You do know Calgar is in the Ultramarines supplement, right? And the rules for the IF Chapter Tactics are all of 1 paragraph.



No, I was not aware, or forgot- which I presume only happened to charge people for the rules for primaris Calgar. And while the IF tactics may be a single sentence, those are still rules that non IF marine players are paying for. You understand my point, I know.

To turn it around- why should I be paying extra to run my DA? GW could have, with less effort than producing a supplement, included all our unique rules and even lore in the Space Marine dex, instead of taxing us. Like GW does with the Ravenwing bits................ Yes, yes, it's greed, obviously. It is not beneficial for gameplay.
GW needs to include stat cards in the kits. I don't mind paying for a rulebook, but cards would allow them to release new kits without supplements or waiting an entire edition. Reducing the number of data sheets would go a long way, as well.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 22:59:18


Post by: Longstrider


About 20 years late, but it's nice to finally see progress on this ground.

It's good for Space Marine players - they don't have to wait for FAQ/supplement cycles to get access to a new unit.

It's good for everyone else - less release slots wasted on a book that's 80% the same as something else.

It's good for GW - any new Space Marines unit is incentivised as a purchase option for all space marines players as soon as one set of rules are available regardless of whether they're bloody or wolfy or mysterious.

Short of GW moving to a fully online free updated army building model like Infinity, Malifaux, SIF or the like, there's NO book release solution that will satisfy everyone, so the release model is just a wash.

Option A: bundle everything together, and then every flavour of astartes player has to buy a massive rulebook sized tome.

Option B: this, and then every flavour of astartes player has to buy at least two, if not more, books

Option C: The 4th-8th model, where all non-astartes players have to put up with Codex Similar Marines five times (it's really different this time, we swear, because this one unit can mix its weapons), and a notable amount of Space Marines players are stuck waiting around for weird FAQ and supplement schedules to play with new toys, or just don't get their new toys.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 22:59:37


Post by: Jimbobbyish


Idk why some players are salty about my TWC, Wulfen and Fenris wolves.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 23:11:18


Post by: CapRichard


Finally.
Been wanting this since forever.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 23:11:32


Post by: Lord Damocles


WhiteDog wrote:
You guys are ten years too late. This discussion is boring : "it's just marine with a different color" ... that's what DA/SW/BA were back in the third ed.
The only thing that bother me slightly with all your argument around bloat is that it is nonsensical. It is not DA/SW/BA that are at the source of a bloat, it is not DA/SW/BA that make stores unable to "carry everything you might want". When was the last time you saw a sizeable number of DA kit in a GW store ? This is nonsense and people should just recognize that the argument is dumb.

I don't care about there being more models.

More models is good!

WhiteDog wrote:
Let's take a side step and actually think about what is happening : GW is releasing in the indomitus box nothing less than 9 new models for SM. Out of those 9 new models, we can believe than at least 6 will get kits. Adding to that, GW already informed us that they will release a new chaplain on bike, a new buggy, a new primaris techmarine, a new techmarine with his gun, a new fortification for SM, and now a new tank. I might be missing something but it's sufficient enough : in the early days of the 9th, GW is releasing nothing less than 12 new SM units/kits.
And that's not even taking into consideration all the units that GW released between the two v8 SM codexes.
Here is where the bloat is coming from : GW is releasing, at an alarming pace, a new line for the SM. And when all is done, we all know they will put almost all of the old marine in the legend category. In the mean time, the SM just have too much units and people, short sighted as they are and unable to see the forest, actually think DA/SW/BA are somewhat responsible in anything.

Primaris are a related but separate problem - they're replacing, by duplicating, the classic Marines line.

Although the number of Primaris units which are essentially variations on dudes with slightly different boltguns is also pretty absurd.

The problem of rules bloat predates Primaris significantly though.

Variant Marines are absolutely responsible for bloat.

Lets add a flier to the Space Marine list. Great idea!

...or we could add:
Stormraven
Stormtalen
Stormhawk
Nephilim
Dark Talon
Stormfang
Stormwolf
(note that at some point in the process Blood Angels went from the only Marines with a flier to not having their own unique flier...)

And that's not counting the Forgeworld range. AND we still never even got a Harpy!

All of those units are competing in the same rules-design space. Why don't the Stormwolf and Stormraven use the same basic rules, since they're both transport craft? Do we really need five fighter craft all with just slightly different guns?
What do we gain by the Stormtalen and Stormhawk being different units and not being available to Dark Angels and Space Wolves? (other than 'it makes them different!')
What do the Dark Angels do when they need air support and the Ravenwing are off hunting Fallen somewhere else?
If we're going to duplicate the vanilla fliers in Codex: Blood Angels anyway, why not consolidate the lists?
Did all the Stormtalens get lost with the Space Wolves' Thunderfire Cannons and Centurion suits?

Now, we could keep all of the different models just fine; but they don't all need different rules/datasheets.

Lets do Dreadnoughts! (from memory):
vanilla Dreadnought
vanilla Venerable
vanilla Ironclad
vanilla Contemptor
vanilla Redemptor
Dark Angel Dreadnought (Note: never got signature Mortis in a codex)
Dark Angel Ironclad (nope; Dark Angels obviously never have need of a melee variant)
Dark Angel Venerable
Dark Angel Contemptor
Dark Angel Redemptor
Blood Angel Dreadnought
Blood Angel Furioso (Note: we know Black Templars and Blood Ravens also use the Furioso)
Blood Angel Death Company
Blood Angel Librarian (I guess nobody else has wounded Librarians?)
Blood Angel Contemptor
Blood Angel Redemptor
Space Wolf Dreadnought
Space Wolf Venerable
Space Wolf Contemptor
Space Wolf Redemptor
Space Wolf Wulfen (it's totally nothing like a Death Company Dreadnought! Honest!)
Space Wolf Bjorn
Space Wolf Murderfang (Note: Blood Angels lost Moriah, but Space Wolves gained a crazy character dread)

That's quite a list for what could relatively easily be just one or two unit entries.

WhiteDog wrote:
Finally, RULE WISE the supplements are actually at the source of a huge bloat : in the DA/SW/BA stand alone codex, there are less relics/strat/psychic powers than in a the combined SM+supplement format. Rule wise, this two-book essential SM combo effectively gave SM a terrible advantage over other armies because they got almost twice the number of stratagem, twice the number of relics, etc. It was basically PA's job to even out the play field by giving more stratagem to other armies. This will not happen in early v9 : get ready for a SM dominated meta.

Thus, roll supplement lists (back) into Codex: Space Marines, and consolidate overlapping unit entries*, and voila! less bloat.


*Remind me why Marines need two different anti-aircraft tanks again? Could we not abstract the unit entry to cover both, plus the Hyperios?
Is it important that the Deathwing Ancient can take a banner and two weapons but nobody else can (not that Space Wolves can even have Terminator Ancients for some reason...)


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 23:18:54


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


blaktoof wrote:
But they aren't being rolled Into one book.

There will be a space Marines codex book
And then each chapter will get a supplement book, BA, SW, DA, DW included.

We already know supplements will include new unit options from 8th format doing so.

That's two books.


From the video I saw, it showed that all divergent chapters will be in the one codex, it was the single good thing about dropping a new codex less than half a year since the last codex that did the exact same thing.

My concern is that the new App is supposed to be tied to the books, which seems silly. Forcing people to buy both is such an easy way to print money, DND does it and so do all the online DND platforms. Now every 9th book will come with a 1 time single use code to add that codex/book to the app. I'll never call GW fair, but this is the first time I've ever seen them be dumb with money. And the new Impulsor is hot garbage. It's literally just a crappy turret slapped on an impulsor, the whole thing will likely be 1 extra spru, for 60 pounds total



Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 23:24:53


Post by: ERJAK


pm713 wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Lord Damocles wrote:
They're not all being merged into one book though.

By the time Red, Green, Grey and Black/Silver Marines have got their supplements there will still be the same number of Marine books as there are now.


If I had my way, there would be a single book with no extra supplements.
So anyone who doesn't want to play SW or BA are told to pound sand and pay for rules they don't want?

In my perfect world, Grey and Red Marines wouldn't have different rules

Why?


So we don't have to spend 2/3rds of every edition on new marine codex releases. That's the best part of the supplement thing. They can drop every space marine army by december and we won't need to touch any of them again until tenth. (they'll still get stuff, obviously, we just might actually fit other factions into the release schedule this time.)


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 23:30:01


Post by: Martel732


About damn time. The 3rd ed system worked fine.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 23:36:24


Post by: Gadzilla666


Martel732 wrote:
About damn time. The 3rd ed system worked fine.

Agreed. I think everyone should get a codex just like the one they had at the end of 3rd.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 23:40:45


Post by: Martel732


The snowflake marines are far less snowflake now that each chapter has their own chapter tactic. The unique units? Marines have so many fething units the snowflakes don't need them anymore imo. And yes, I know BA lived off SG and DC at the end of 8th.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 23:42:12


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Martel732 wrote:
The snowflake marines are far less snowflake now that each chapter has their own chapter tactic. The unique units? Marines have so many fething units the snowflakes don't need them anymore imo.

To an extent this is VERY true.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 23:45:39


Post by: Martel732


I will happily trade jump DC and SG for Wulfen being fething gone forever.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/25 23:55:03


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Jimbobbyish wrote:
Idk why some players are salty about my TWC, Wulfen and Fenris wolves.
Depends which angle you come at it from.

Fluff/Concept?

Thunderwolf Cavalry - Dumb as a bag of hammers.
Wulfen - Totally fine.
Fenris Wolves - I mean, they fit the army, so why not?

Miniatures?

Thunderwolf Cavalry - Amazing execution, given what a stupid concept they are.
Wulfen - Jesus Christ they're hideous!!!
Fenris Wolves - They're fine. Nothing outstanding. Nothing eye-gougingly offensive.

Whether They Should Exist At All In The New Codex?

Some people seem to think they shouldn't. I think they should.



Of course, unrelated to the above three, if the words "Murder" and "Fang" never saw another print run I wouldn't lose any sleep.



Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 00:21:56


Post by: Jimbobbyish


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Jimbobbyish wrote:
Idk why some players are salty about my TWC, Wulfen and Fenris wolves.
Depends which angle you come at it from.

Fluff/Concept?

Thunderwolf Cavalry - Dumb as a bag of hammers.
Wulfen - Totally fine.
Fenris Wolves - I mean, they fit the army, so why not?

Miniatures?

Thunderwolf Cavalry - Amazing execution, given what a stupid concept they are.
Wulfen - Jesus Christ they're hideous!!!
Fenris Wolves - They're fine. Nothing outstanding. Nothing eye-gougingly offensive.

Whether They Should Exist At All In The New Codex?

Some people seem to think they shouldn't. I think they should.



Of course, unrelated to the above three, if the words "Murder" and "Fang" never saw another print run I wouldn't lose any sleep.

Aw man, I'm the opposite when it comes to TWC! I love the fluff and I'm heavily converting the models (link in signature). Admittedly a lot of the space wolf names for things is silly.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 00:33:54


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Jimbobbyish wrote:
Admittedly a lot of the space wolf names for things is silly.
Sadly, and as much as certain people like to pretend it isn't a thing, that's the unfortunate result of Flanderisation. It's really hit the Woofs far more than any other army in 40K. Blood Angels have a bit of it, but it got toned down. Sadly GW went all in for the Wolves, giving us "Murderfang" and a host of other absurd miniatures/units.

Maybe they'll veer back towards a more Viking style or at least a better balance of the two when their supplement comes around.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 01:02:38


Post by: cuda1179


I doubt it, but does anyone think that Grey Knights will be rolled into this book?


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 01:09:46


Post by: BaconCatBug


 cuda1179 wrote:
I doubt it, but does anyone think that Grey Knights will be rolled into this book?
No, they left them out of the announcement. I assume because they share only a single unit (the Land Raider).


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 03:40:47


Post by: Martel732


Jimbobbyish wrote:
Idk why some players are salty about my TWC, Wulfen and Fenris wolves.


Because they are stupid units with stupid fluff. And wulfen are better than all 8 of my cc elements, so why bother with ba at all. Thats why.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 04:26:42


Post by: cuda1179


Martel732 wrote:
Jimbobbyish wrote:
Idk why some players are salty about my TWC, Wulfen and Fenris wolves.


Because they are stupid units with stupid fluff. And wulfen are better than all 8 of my cc elements, so why bother with ba at all. Thats why.


I don't know, I actually kinda like the Fenrisian wolves. They're attack dogs, which actually have a history in real life warfare. I've used 48 of them since the 3rd edition eye of terror codex came out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
I doubt it, but does anyone think that Grey Knights will be rolled into this book?
No, they left them out of the announcement. I assume because they share only a single unit (the Land Raider).



Also 2 fliers, razorback, Librarian, techmarines. I think that if they did include them it would have almost been mandatory to give them Primaris, and I don't think they are quite ready to cross that line yet.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 04:33:33


Post by: BaconCatBug


 cuda1179 wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
I doubt it, but does anyone think that Grey Knights will be rolled into this book?
No, they left them out of the announcement. I assume because they share only a single unit (the Land Raider).



Also 2 fliers, razorback, Librarian, techmarines. I think that if they did include them it would have almost been mandatory to give them Primaris, and I don't think they are quite ready to cross that line yet.
To nitpick, I wouldn't say the Techmarines are shared because they are Psykers when they are Grey Knights, and their Librarians have different wargear, but yeah other than a handful of vehicles/transports, they don't really share anything with Vanilla Marines.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 04:46:22


Post by: Therion


I posted about this new ultimate SM book more than a month ago now. But since it’s now official that supplements like Ultramarines or Iron Hands will stay legal, it’s not really that big of a change for those factions. Full codex chapters look to be getting the most immediate changes, because they’ll be stuck waiting for their supplement for the time being.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 05:20:14


Post by: Insectum7


Does this make 3 Space Marine codexes in 4 years? That's very off-putting. :/


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 06:12:13


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Insectum7 wrote:
Does this make 3 Space Marine codexes in 4 years? That's very off-putting. :/

Yeah, for both non loyalists players who are sick of seeing release after release of new loyalist models and rules while their factions languish, and for loyalists players who have to buy a new codex within a year or less than the last one. People like to point out that it's been slightly more than a year since Loyalist Dogs 2.0, but it's entirely possible that someone bought that codex far more recently than that, only to find out that it will soon be obsolete. That's gotta sting.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 07:09:18


Post by: a_typical_hero


Instead of lamenting that there is yet another Marine codex coming out, you could see it as a bonus release along the new Necrons.

With Loyalists out of the way within the first 3 months (and the Xenos release schedule didn't even suffer for it), we hopefully have more time for other factions.

Historically the first few books in an edition are on a lower power level as well, as the design team is learning and trying out new things with later releases.

So win win for all non loyalists?


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 07:22:10


Post by: Aash


I like that the SM stuff is getting rolled into one codex, but I do think the new Codex is too soon after the last. Hopefully this will address how over-powered they are though.

I like that there will be new supplements for the chapters getting rolled into this one (SW, BA etc) but am disappointed that the supplements for the other chapters aren't getting re-done.

If they are making a new SM codex they really should re-do the supplements too I think, my biggest issue with this is how the new 40k app will work with it.

I can download the free app and not subscribe, buy the new SM codex and scan/input a code to access the codex in the app. So far so good. I can then buy a new supplement eg BA and access that in the app.

However, if I want to run one of the other chapters: UM, RG, IH IF etc in order to access their rules in the app I need to pay the monthly subscription!! AFAIK that's the only way to access rules etc from 8th until those rules are invalid. Not happy about this at all.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 09:16:50


Post by: Dudeface


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Does this make 3 Space Marine codexes in 4 years? That's very off-putting. :/

Yeah, for both non loyalists players who are sick of seeing release after release of new loyalist models and rules while their factions languish, and for loyalists players who have to buy a new codex within a year or less than the last one. People like to point out that it's been slightly more than a year since Loyalist Dogs 2.0, but it's entirely possible that someone bought that codex far more recently than that, only to find out that it will soon be obsolete. That's gotta sting.


The preview of random hqs worried me for this reason, my sisters book is 8-9 months old (general release). It will eventually get a 9th version and with a new hq on the way that's an easy excuse to segway into replacing it. But everyone with a later PA book is in the same boat. New admech and DG models, again makes sense to release them with the codex.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 09:19:18


Post by: Not Online!!!


if they go back to limiting HQ options, then oyu bet your ass they want to resqueze you for a new book with new HQ options.

Good for them seeing as their margines for them are clearly higher then even their plastic, considering they print the stuff in china and the general care they invest into the most baseline proofreading of the dexes themselves.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 11:27:38


Post by: Blackie


Martel732 wrote:
The snowflake marines are far less snowflake now that each chapter has their own chapter tactic. The unique units? Marines have so many fething units the snowflakes don't need them anymore imo. And yes, I know BA lived off SG and DC at the end of 8th.


Need is a big word. SM didn't need new releases in 8th and they definitely didn't need new releases in 9th, and yet more and more new units of SM.

Unique units help keeping some variety in the game. Otherwise we'd all just play the same army and I'd never want to play a light grey SM army that has just the chapter trait as the only difference from other chapters.

From my perspective, as a SW player, I didn't need to buy two codexes to play my army, I didn't need to pay for rules about factions I'd never play and I didn't need to buy any of the primaris releases. I'd rather have all the primaris roster squatted, and relegate them to open play like Grukk and Goffs Rockers (in fact I honestly think that they should be there), if that means keeping SW unique units.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 12:20:05


Post by: WhiteDog


 Lord Damocles wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
You guys are ten years too late. This discussion is boring : "it's just marine with a different color" ... that's what DA/SW/BA were back in the third ed.
The only thing that bother me slightly with all your argument around bloat is that it is nonsensical. It is not DA/SW/BA that are at the source of a bloat, it is not DA/SW/BA that make stores unable to "carry everything you might want". When was the last time you saw a sizeable number of DA kit in a GW store ? This is nonsense and people should just recognize that the argument is dumb.

I don't care about there being more models.

More models is good!

Personally I'd prefer it if the release were more equally distributed in order to prevent that the SM get ten time what other factions get. I'm getting bored with the rate of release of the SM faction and as a CSM player, I'm still a bit bothered that there are no new oblit kit a year after, while the SM got two codexes and god knows how many kit.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
Let's take a side step and actually think about what is happening : GW is releasing in the indomitus box nothing less than 9 new models for SM. Out of those 9 new models, we can believe than at least 6 will get kits. Adding to that, GW already informed us that they will release a new chaplain on bike, a new buggy, a new primaris techmarine, a new techmarine with his gun, a new fortification for SM, and now a new tank. I might be missing something but it's sufficient enough : in the early days of the 9th, GW is releasing nothing less than 12 new SM units/kits.
And that's not even taking into consideration all the units that GW released between the two v8 SM codexes.
Here is where the bloat is coming from : GW is releasing, at an alarming pace, a new line for the SM. And when all is done, we all know they will put almost all of the old marine in the legend category. In the mean time, the SM just have too much units and people, short sighted as they are and unable to see the forest, actually think DA/SW/BA are somewhat responsible in anything.

Primaris are a related but separate problem - they're replacing, by duplicating, the classic Marines line.

Although the number of Primaris units which are essentially variations on dudes with slightly different boltguns is also pretty absurd.

The problem of rules bloat predates Primaris significantly though.

Variant Marines are absolutely responsible for bloat.

Lets add a flier to the Space Marine list. Great idea!

...or we could add:
Stormraven
Stormtalen
Stormhawk
Nephilim
Dark Talon
Stormfang
Stormwolf
(note that at some point in the process Blood Angels went from the only Marines with a flier to not having their own unique flier...)

All those units are substitutes that gives more diversity to the game. You cannot both take a nephilim and a stormtalon, you cannot take a stormfang and a stormraven. I like that, more diversity is good, and since it comes with restrictions, it is perfectly fine.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
All of those units are competing in the same rules-design space.

Yes ! And that's why a consolidation will necessarily lead to the disappearance of some units, unless they keep the restriction that they made.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Why don't the Stormwolf and Stormraven use the same basic rules, since they're both transport craft? Do we really need five fighter craft all with just slightly different guns?

Everytime it was justified by GW thanks to lore reasons. For exemple, Stormtalon and Stormhawk are pilotted by techmarines, and DA are suspicious of techmarines because they are loyal to mars, and thus they built their own flyers, the nephilim and the dark talon, who are pilotted by ravenwing members.
You can dislike that, maybe it was a stupid use of GW's time and they should have produced new kits for other factions (and I can agree with that, even if I love the dark talon), but the fact is they did create those units and it increased the differences between the various SM chapters to a point where the DA that I play was very different from the ultramarines, and I liked that.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
What do the Dark Angels do when they need air support and the Ravenwing are off hunting Fallen somewhere else?

It's actually much more difficult to train a techmarine than to train a ravenwing pilot. For this reason, the DA have way more nephilim/dark talon than other SM chapters have stormraven/stormtalon

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Lets do Dreadnoughts! (from memory):
vanilla Dreadnought
vanilla Venerable
vanilla Ironclad
vanilla Contemptor
vanilla Redemptor
Dark Angel Dreadnought (Note: never got signature Mortis in a codex)
Dark Angel Ironclad (nope; Dark Angels obviously never have need of a melee variant)
Dark Angel Venerable
Dark Angel Contemptor
Dark Angel Redemptor
Blood Angel Dreadnought
Blood Angel Furioso (Note: we know Black Templars and Blood Ravens also use the Furioso)
Blood Angel Death Company
Blood Angel Librarian (I guess nobody else has wounded Librarians?)
Blood Angel Contemptor
Blood Angel Redemptor
Space Wolf Dreadnought
Space Wolf Venerable
Space Wolf Contemptor
Space Wolf Redemptor
Space Wolf Wulfen (it's totally nothing like a Death Company Dreadnought! Honest!)
Space Wolf Bjorn
Space Wolf Murderfang (Note: Blood Angels lost Moriah, but Space Wolves gained a crazy character dread)

All those units you are listing here have the same rules accross all SM factions, except for some BA and SW dreadnought who actually are unique dreadnought. Personally I like those diverse Dreadnought and I have bought, from FW, a DA contemptor and Leviathan because I wanted to paint those beautiful mini. This does not create any problem imo.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
Finally, RULE WISE the supplements are actually at the source of a huge bloat : in the DA/SW/BA stand alone codex, there are less relics/strat/psychic powers than in a the combined SM+supplement format. Rule wise, this two-book essential SM combo effectively gave SM a terrible advantage over other armies because they got almost twice the number of stratagem, twice the number of relics, etc. It was basically PA's job to even out the play field by giving more stratagem to other armies. This will not happen in early v9 : get ready for a SM dominated meta.

Thus, roll supplement lists (back) into Codex: Space Marines, and consolidate overlapping unit entries*, and voila! less bloat.

Your solution is thus to reduced the diversity in the SM line. I can understand that : it add visibility and balance to the game (it's easier to balance when there's less unit entry/diversity of choice). It's also a loss in diversity, content and character : there are games that are more streamlined than 40K if what you want is visibility and balance.
I personally thought having one codex for SM/DA/SW/BA at least gave both diversity and some form of balance to the game : a SW player for exemple had everything in his codex, some stratagems/relics that were copied from the SM codex and some that were unique. As such, as a SW player he gained things but also lost some.
This new SM codex+supplement design philosophy is inherently imbalanced because a BA/SW/DA player has both all the strata and relics of the core SM books PLUS everything that is specific to his chapter and that is found in the supplement.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 12:56:45


Post by: Nevelon


Why is the general assumption that all the special units are going to get cut?

Before supplements, I could see this being an issue. Only so much space in the core book. But with supplements I suspect the BA/DA/SW are just going to be basic marines++. They will get all the options, plus their own.

And by moving to sharing the core codex, they never have to worry about missing out on the latest toys.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 13:10:44


Post by: Slowroll


I'm happy about it. When I first started my Deathwatch, I could use almost all the new Primaris stuff except one model I wasn't going to use anyway.

Fast forward through the rest of 8Eand a lot of new Primaris are released, and you have to wait to see if GW says Deatchwatch can use them (which they can't except for one tank). And the only real new rules they get are an afterthought in the magazine.

So yeah, being able to use all new and existing vanilla stuff by default, for the flagship army of 40k which we know will always get the most models and releases, sounds pretty good.


The question would be what to do in between when this new book comes out and the new supplement.. Do you:

-Just play them as Space Marines 9E and shelve as your unique units for a while?

-Use 9E codex rules/points for everything that has an entry, use the existing datasheet/Munitorium points for unique units? Would an 8E Warlord take a 9E WT?

-Play with your 8E books and not use the new 9E stuff until the supplement has been released?

Maybe they will release a flowchart or something, like they did with the indexes.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 14:22:02


Post by: Gridge


I like it for the simple fact that some of my favorite SM units are not currently available to Dark Angels (namely centurions and thunderfire cannons). I'm assuming of course that I'll be able to use them. There still could be limitations applied in the supplement I suppose.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 15:19:45


Post by: Martel732


 Blackie wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
The snowflake marines are far less snowflake now that each chapter has their own chapter tactic. The unique units? Marines have so many fething units the snowflakes don't need them anymore imo. And yes, I know BA lived off SG and DC at the end of 8th.


Need is a big word. SM didn't need new releases in 8th and they definitely didn't need new releases in 9th, and yet more and more new units of SM.

Unique units help keeping some variety in the game. Otherwise we'd all just play the same army and I'd never want to play a light grey SM army that has just the chapter trait as the only difference from other chapters.

From my perspective, as a SW player, I didn't need to buy two codexes to play my army, I didn't need to pay for rules about factions I'd never play and I didn't need to buy any of the primaris releases. I'd rather have all the primaris roster squatted, and relegate them to open play like Grukk and Goffs Rockers (in fact I honestly think that they should be there), if that means keeping SW unique units.


The game has plenty of variety even if marines all run the same units. Marine chapters don't need unique units, and at their very low manpower levels, shouldn't have them at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Nevelon wrote:
Why is the general assumption that all the special units are going to get cut?

Before supplements, I could see this being an issue. Only so much space in the core book. But with supplements I suspect the BA/DA/SW are just going to be basic marines++. They will get all the options, plus their own.

And by moving to sharing the core codex, they never have to worry about missing out on the latest toys.


Wishful thinking on the part of SW for me.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 15:28:53


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Martel has a point. The Vanilla codex alone has more Elite choices than some armies have entire unit entries. What variety do you WANT at that point? That's why I've been saying just 3-4 unique units is all you need, AT MOST.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 15:46:21


Post by: Lord Damocles


Martel732 wrote:
The game has plenty of variety even if marines all run the same units. Marine chapters don't need unique units, and at their very low manpower levels, shouldn't have them at all.

You can have Chapters having unique units without that having to mean that they need duplicated rules.

Deathwing would be perfectly adequately represented with the same unit entry as the Archangels and the Warriors of Ultramar.
Sword Brethren needn't have unique rules over Vanguard'/Sternguard.
A Sanguinary Priest and an Apothecary could easily share a datasheet.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 15:56:10


Post by: Martel732


Marines are out of control on entries, and the snowflake chapters make it worse needlessly. I play one, I should know.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 16:04:57


Post by: Voss


 Nevelon wrote:
Why is the general assumption that all the special units are going to get cut?

Because there isn't enough else to panic about this week. Some folks need the drama.

Before supplements, I could see this being an issue. Only so much space in the core book. But with supplements I suspect the BA/DA/SW are just going to be basic marines++. They will get all the options, plus their own.

And by moving to sharing the core codex, they never have to worry about missing out on the latest toys.

Pretty much this. There might be a few restrictions, along the line of BT and librarians, but anyone expecting GW to suddenly _not_ sell variant marine kits to marine players doesn't have a firm grasp on the company's core business strategy.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 16:10:38


Post by: WhiteDog


The "snowflake" chapter as some jealous people argue here and there are not responsible for the high number of SM entry. You guys are delusional, as always, only seeing the tree and not the forest.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 16:17:04


Post by: Mr Morden


Your solution is thus to reduced the diversity in the SM line. I can understand that : it add visibility and balance to the game (it's easier to balance when there's less unit entry/diversity of choice). It's also a loss in diversity, content and character : there are games that are more streamlined than 40K if what you want is visibility and balance.
I personally thought having one codex for SM/DA/SW/BA at least gave both diversity and some form of balance to the game : a SW player for exemple had everything in his codex, some stratagems/relics that were copied from the SM codex and some that were unique. As such, as a SW player he gained things but also lost some.
This new SM codex+supplement design philosophy is inherently imbalanced because a BA/SW/DA player has both all the strata and relics of the core SM books PLUS everything that is specific to his chapter and that is found in the supplement.


Lore was constantly being re-written to make the Wolves and Angels seem more unique and special.

Diversity for a few and less for the majority of players as resources were constantly diverted to making slighly different versions of units to make some justifcaiton for the Wolves and Angles.

Many Chapters have similar units to those that were lavished on the Wolves and Angels but because of the constant focuss on a three Chapters could never have them.

As soon as any new unit came out for Marines, the first thing many Wolves and Angels players screamed for was them to have them. Many wanted everything that Marines had and then all their own stuff - and they have that now.

It will be intersting it see what units remain "Chapter unique" even if they are little more than name changes or a single rule or if everyone gets access to things like Librarian Dreadnoughts.....

Also if the new Codex addresses the every growing mountain of Marine unit bloat where datasheets could cover many units but are cosntnatly broken up for tiny differences like a different piece of armour or gun.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 16:21:08


Post by: WhiteDog


Lore was constantly being re-written to make the Wolves and Angels seem more unique and special.

For every factions.

Diversity for a few and less for the majority of players as resources were constantly diverted to making slighly different versions of units to make some justifcaiton for the Wolves and Angles.

False. There are more ressources used into producing SM units (available to all) now than there were to produce a variety of marines, DA/SW/BA, back then. Again, all those arguments are based on false ground. You are just focusing on DA/BA/SW for an irrational reason : if you think about it with a little objectivity, it's pretty obvious that both the bloat in rules and in the number of marine units has nothing to do with those three factions, and more to do with 1) GW's absurd production of new units for SM (three codex in two years, well enough entry to create a new primaris codex) ; 2) GW's way to produce new books and new rules for factions (vigilus, then PA).
DA/SW/BA are a drop in the ocean, but you the famous not "a marine player" cannot just take a step back and see this obvious fact.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 16:22:28


Post by: Kanluwen


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Vanilla codex alone has more Elite choices than some armies have entire unit entries. What variety do you WANT at that point? That's why I've been saying just 3-4 unique units is all you need, AT MOST.

And how many of those Elite choices are things that could be condensed?
We didn't need Assault and Terminator Squads. Arguably, we didn't even need the Tartaros or Cataphractii Squads.
We didn't need Ironclad. Venerable, and standard Dreadnoughts as separate entries.
We didn't need Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans as separate entries.
We didn't need Assault and Devastator(who, admittedly, are Heavy Support not Elites) Centurions as separate entries.

There's a lot of real examples of bloat in the book, and the Elite section is a good place to look at.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 16:22:40


Post by: Lord Damocles


WhiteDog wrote:
The "snowflake" chapter as some jealous people argue here and there are not responsible for the high number of SM entry. You guys are delusional, as always, only seeing the tree and not the forest.

There are SEVENTEEN Terminator squad unit entries. That's a forest.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 16:25:28


Post by: Mr Morden


WhiteDog wrote:
Lore was constantly being re-written to make the Wolves and Angels seem more unique and special.

For every factions.

Diversity for a few and less for the majority of players as resources were constantly diverted to making slighly different versions of units to make some justifcaiton for the Wolves and Angles.

False. There are more ressources used into producing SM units (available to all) now than there were to produce a variety of marines, DA/SW/BA, back then. Again, all those arguments are based on false ground. You are just focusing on DA/BA/SW for an irrational reason : if you think about it with a little objectivity, it's pretty obvious that both the bloat in rules and in the number of marine units has nothing to do with those three factions, and more to do with 1) GW's absurd production of new units for SM (three codex in two years) ; 2) GW's way to produce new books and new rules for factions (vigilus, then PA).
DA/SW/BA are a drop in the ocean, but you the famous not marine player cannot just take a step back and see this obvious fact.


Looks at the Pyschic Awakening books and the vast amount of the books that was used to reprint repeatedly the same dataslates just for Wolves and Angels. Feels vindincated.



Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 16:27:09


Post by: Blackie


Martel732 wrote:


The game has plenty of variety even if marines all run the same units. Marine chapters don't need unique units, and at their very low manpower levels, shouldn't have them at all.



True... if only SM were popular just like other factions. But if all chapters become basically the same army in the reality we have tons of games with very similar lists, as the majority of the players have some kind of marine army. At that point the only healthy solution would be making SM bottom tiers or lower mid tiers, and then yes there would be some variety.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 16:37:35


Post by: WhiteDog


 Mr Morden wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
Lore was constantly being re-written to make the Wolves and Angels seem more unique and special.

For every factions.

Diversity for a few and less for the majority of players as resources were constantly diverted to making slighly different versions of units to make some justifcaiton for the Wolves and Angles.

False. There are more ressources used into producing SM units (available to all) now than there were to produce a variety of marines, DA/SW/BA, back then. Again, all those arguments are based on false ground. You are just focusing on DA/BA/SW for an irrational reason : if you think about it with a little objectivity, it's pretty obvious that both the bloat in rules and in the number of marine units has nothing to do with those three factions, and more to do with 1) GW's absurd production of new units for SM (three codex in two years) ; 2) GW's way to produce new books and new rules for factions (vigilus, then PA).
DA/SW/BA are a drop in the ocean, but you the famous not marine player cannot just take a step back and see this obvious fact.


Looks at the Pyschic Awakening books and the vast amount of the books that was used to reprint repeatedly the same dataslates just for Wolves and Angels. Feels vindincated.

They did the same for every factions ... Chaos space marines got 4 new sections in PA just for them : faith and fury, ritual of the damned, and two parts in war of the spider (DG and the agents of bile) ... SW/BA/DA got what three characters in 3 PA ? How does that really mobilize a massive amount of ressources ? Reprinting datasheet does not cost anything, it's just a filler and it doesn't prevent GW from producing anything for xenos, that's a dumb argument. Just think about it a little : how many kit for SM in the last two years ? How many for DA/SW/BA combined ?
DA/SW/BA have nothing to do with the bloat.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 16:41:28


Post by: Mr Morden


WhiteDog wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
Lore was constantly being re-written to make the Wolves and Angels seem more unique and special.

For every factions.

Diversity for a few and less for the majority of players as resources were constantly diverted to making slighly different versions of units to make some justifcaiton for the Wolves and Angles.

False. There are more ressources used into producing SM units (available to all) now than there were to produce a variety of marines, DA/SW/BA, back then. Again, all those arguments are based on false ground. You are just focusing on DA/BA/SW for an irrational reason : if you think about it with a little objectivity, it's pretty obvious that both the bloat in rules and in the number of marine units has nothing to do with those three factions, and more to do with 1) GW's absurd production of new units for SM (three codex in two years) ; 2) GW's way to produce new books and new rules for factions (vigilus, then PA).
DA/SW/BA are a drop in the ocean, but you the famous not marine player cannot just take a step back and see this obvious fact.


Looks at the Pyschic Awakening books and the vast amount of the books that was used to reprint repeatedly the same dataslates just for Wolves and Angels. Feels vindincated.

They did the same for every factions ... Chaos space marines got 4 new sections in PA just for them : faith and fury, ritual of the damned, and two parts in war of the spider (DC and the agents of bile) ... SW/BA/DA got what three characters in 3 PA ? How is that really a massive amount of ressources ? Just think about it a little : how many kit for SM in the last two years ? How many for DA/SW/BA combined ?
DA/SW/BA have nothing to do with the bloat.


I was refering to the vast number of pages that were dedicated to printing the same dataslates again which could haev been used for ....well anything else - but no the Wolves and Angels had to have it all with different names or not.

I am a Marine player - its just I am not obessed with a single sub faction as you seem to be or need to ensure that they have more, more more.....in fact I feel that this has badly damaged everythng about the Wolves

Yeah I get it you love WOLFY WOLF WOLVEs - not all Space Wolves players do


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 16:53:52


Post by: WhiteDog


 Mr Morden wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
Lore was constantly being re-written to make the Wolves and Angels seem more unique and special.

For every factions.

Diversity for a few and less for the majority of players as resources were constantly diverted to making slighly different versions of units to make some justifcaiton for the Wolves and Angles.

False. There are more ressources used into producing SM units (available to all) now than there were to produce a variety of marines, DA/SW/BA, back then. Again, all those arguments are based on false ground. You are just focusing on DA/BA/SW for an irrational reason : if you think about it with a little objectivity, it's pretty obvious that both the bloat in rules and in the number of marine units has nothing to do with those three factions, and more to do with 1) GW's absurd production of new units for SM (three codex in two years) ; 2) GW's way to produce new books and new rules for factions (vigilus, then PA).
DA/SW/BA are a drop in the ocean, but you the famous not marine player cannot just take a step back and see this obvious fact.


Looks at the Pyschic Awakening books and the vast amount of the books that was used to reprint repeatedly the same dataslates just for Wolves and Angels. Feels vindincated.

They did the same for every factions ... Chaos space marines got 4 new sections in PA just for them : faith and fury, ritual of the damned, and two parts in war of the spider (DC and the agents of bile) ... SW/BA/DA got what three characters in 3 PA ? How is that really a massive amount of ressources ? Just think about it a little : how many kit for SM in the last two years ? How many for DA/SW/BA combined ?
DA/SW/BA have nothing to do with the bloat.


I was refering to the vast number of pages that were dedicated to printing the same dataslates again which could haev been used for ....well anything else - but no the Wolves and Angels had to have it all with different names or not.

I am a Marine player - its just I am not obessed with a single sub faction as you seem to be or need to ensure that they have more, more more.....in fact I feel that this has badly damaged everythng about the Wolves

Yeah I get it you love WOLFY WOLF WOLVEs - not all Space Wolves players do

We're talking about what 10 pages of datasheet that are copy/paste from faq that were already available on warhammer community ? How is that a waste of ressource ? You really think it cost GW to print that ? It prevented GW from producing more units for xenos factions ? Is it really relevant seriously ?


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 17:02:18


Post by: Mr Morden


WhiteDog wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
Lore was constantly being re-written to make the Wolves and Angels seem more unique and special.

For every factions.

Diversity for a few and less for the majority of players as resources were constantly diverted to making slighly different versions of units to make some justifcaiton for the Wolves and Angles.

False. There are more ressources used into producing SM units (available to all) now than there were to produce a variety of marines, DA/SW/BA, back then. Again, all those arguments are based on false ground. You are just focusing on DA/BA/SW for an irrational reason : if you think about it with a little objectivity, it's pretty obvious that both the bloat in rules and in the number of marine units has nothing to do with those three factions, and more to do with 1) GW's absurd production of new units for SM (three codex in two years) ; 2) GW's way to produce new books and new rules for factions (vigilus, then PA).
DA/SW/BA are a drop in the ocean, but you the famous not marine player cannot just take a step back and see this obvious fact.


Looks at the Pyschic Awakening books and the vast amount of the books that was used to reprint repeatedly the same dataslates just for Wolves and Angels. Feels vindincated.

They did the same for every factions ... Chaos space marines got 4 new sections in PA just for them : faith and fury, ritual of the damned, and two parts in war of the spider (DC and the agents of bile) ... SW/BA/DA got what three characters in 3 PA ? How is that really a massive amount of ressources ? Just think about it a little : how many kit for SM in the last two years ? How many for DA/SW/BA combined ?
DA/SW/BA have nothing to do with the bloat.


I was refering to the vast number of pages that were dedicated to printing the same dataslates again which could haev been used for ....well anything else - but no the Wolves and Angels had to have it all with different names or not.

I am a Marine player - its just I am not obessed with a single sub faction as you seem to be or need to ensure that they have more, more more.....in fact I feel that this has badly damaged everythng about the Wolves

Yeah I get it you love WOLFY WOLF WOLVEs - not all Space Wolves players do

We're talking about what 10 pages of datasheet that are copy/paste from faq that were already available on warhammer community ? How is that a waste of ressource ? You really think it cost GW to print that ? It prevented GW from producing more units for xenos factions ? Is it really relevant seriously ?


Seriously - count all the duplicate pages of rules in what was supposed to be a Campaign book - and consider waht lore, new rules, art or in fact anything else that could have been in their place but was not because the books had to be filled up with duplicates because Wolves and Angels.

Then consider that every time they made anything for the 997 other Marine Chapters they had to go - oh yeah we need to spend time and resources making rules and sometimes versions for Wolves and Angels. time and respouces that could not be spent on any other Marines, Imperial or Xenos.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 17:04:21


Post by: WhiteDog


 Mr Morden wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
Lore was constantly being re-written to make the Wolves and Angels seem more unique and special.

For every factions.

Diversity for a few and less for the majority of players as resources were constantly diverted to making slighly different versions of units to make some justifcaiton for the Wolves and Angles.

False. There are more ressources used into producing SM units (available to all) now than there were to produce a variety of marines, DA/SW/BA, back then. Again, all those arguments are based on false ground. You are just focusing on DA/BA/SW for an irrational reason : if you think about it with a little objectivity, it's pretty obvious that both the bloat in rules and in the number of marine units has nothing to do with those three factions, and more to do with 1) GW's absurd production of new units for SM (three codex in two years) ; 2) GW's way to produce new books and new rules for factions (vigilus, then PA).
DA/SW/BA are a drop in the ocean, but you the famous not marine player cannot just take a step back and see this obvious fact.


Looks at the Pyschic Awakening books and the vast amount of the books that was used to reprint repeatedly the same dataslates just for Wolves and Angels. Feels vindincated.

They did the same for every factions ... Chaos space marines got 4 new sections in PA just for them : faith and fury, ritual of the damned, and two parts in war of the spider (DC and the agents of bile) ... SW/BA/DA got what three characters in 3 PA ? How is that really a massive amount of ressources ? Just think about it a little : how many kit for SM in the last two years ? How many for DA/SW/BA combined ?
DA/SW/BA have nothing to do with the bloat.


I was refering to the vast number of pages that were dedicated to printing the same dataslates again which could haev been used for ....well anything else - but no the Wolves and Angels had to have it all with different names or not.

I am a Marine player - its just I am not obessed with a single sub faction as you seem to be or need to ensure that they have more, more more.....in fact I feel that this has badly damaged everythng about the Wolves

Yeah I get it you love WOLFY WOLF WOLVEs - not all Space Wolves players do

We're talking about what 10 pages of datasheet that are copy/paste from faq that were already available on warhammer community ? How is that a waste of ressource ? You really think it cost GW to print that ? It prevented GW from producing more units for xenos factions ? Is it really relevant seriously ?


Seriously - count all the duplicate pages of rules in what was supposed to be a Campaign book - and consider waht lore, new rules, art or in fact anything else that could have been in their place but was not because the books had to be filled up with duplicates because Wolves and Angels.

Then consider that every time they made anything for the 997 other Marine Chapters they had to go - oh yeah we need to spend time and resources making rules and sometimes versions for Wolves and Angels. time and respouces that could not be spent on any other Marines, Imperial or Xenos.

How does printing ten page of datasheet in 3 PA prevent GW from producing "lore, new rules" and "art" or anything else. You're not making any sense. It took five minutes to copy paste those datasheet, nothing more.

You should be whining about the 30 kit SM got in the last two years, or about the two, and now three codexes they get, plus the 6 supplement (soon 9 !). I play DA and I'm bothered about all those release. Just stop, I hate playing an army that has no stablity and that change entirely every six month.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 17:05:28


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Kanluwen wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Vanilla codex alone has more Elite choices than some armies have entire unit entries. What variety do you WANT at that point? That's why I've been saying just 3-4 unique units is all you need, AT MOST.

And how many of those Elite choices are things that could be condensed?
We didn't need Assault and Terminator Squads. Arguably, we didn't even need the Tartaros or Cataphractii Squads.
We didn't need Ironclad. Venerable, and standard Dreadnoughts as separate entries.
We didn't need Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans as separate entries.
We didn't need Assault and Devastator(who, admittedly, are Heavy Support not Elites) Centurions as separate entries.

There's a lot of real examples of bloat in the book, and the Elite section is a good place to look at.

I'm actually on board for a consolidated Terminator profile. I'd also be for getting rid of the Ironclad entry for just the options being available in the basic profile, with Ven just being an upgraded profile (so all still one page). I'm also VERY on board for consolidated Centurions. However I'd keep Sternguard and Vanguard separate entries as I would want Sternguard being BS2+ and Vanguard WS2+ (with Terminators getting both).

More the point of my post was that how much more variety can someone want when we have several unit entries that need to be combined in the first place.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 17:05:52


Post by: Mr Morden



Just stop you're making no sense. How does printing ten page of datasheet in 3 PA prevent GW from producing "lore, new rules" and "art" or anything else. You're not making any sense.

You should be whining about the 30 kit SM got in the last two years
#

Removed - Rule #1 please If they are spending dozens of pages filling up books with repeated crap - nothing else is goign there is it!!!


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 17:11:32


Post by: WhiteDog


 Mr Morden wrote:

Just stop you're making no sense. How does printing ten page of datasheet in 3 PA prevent GW from producing "lore, new rules" and "art" or anything else. You're not making any sense.

You should be whining about the 30 kit SM got in the last two years
#

Removed - Rule #1 please If they are spending dozens of pages filling up books with repeated crap - nothing else is goign there is it!!!

It's false, all those PA books were fillers. It didn't cost anything for GW to produce those, aside from the few mini. You're making so sense at all, just focus and use your brain. Did you even buy one PA ?


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 17:22:02


Post by: Dysartes


 Mr Morden wrote:

Just stop you're making no sense. How does printing ten page of datasheet in 3 PA prevent GW from producing "lore, new rules" and "art" or anything else. You're not making any sense.

You should be whining about the 30 kit SM got in the last two years
#

Removed - Rule #1 please If they are spending dozens of pages filling up books with repeated crap - nothing else is goign there is it!!!


You seem to be working under the assumption that, if those pages weren't there, then other material would've been produced to fill them.

That's not guaranteed - as WhiteDog has pointed out, virtually no Studio time will have gone into the reprints, though a little will have been required for amended/new ones (such as the variant Chaplains, for example). We could just have ended up with shorter books, or even a reshuffle of who went where, and one less book overall.

Virtually any other material that could've replaced them would've needed more time from the Design Studio (or the art team), with the possible exception of including the Harlequin and Deathwatch content that ended up in White Dwarf - and in the case of the latter, you'd've complained about more Marine content. Again.

Personally, I think the BA/DA/SW updates for the duplicate datasheets should've been released as a PDF when SM 2.0 was released, with any new or amended datasheets (like the Wolf Priest or Sang Priest) being covered in the PA books, but that's just me.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 17:24:56


Post by: BaconCatBug


What I want to know is why SW are included. The only units they even share with the Vanilla Codex are some vehicles. All the command structure, line troops and even the primaris squads are changed for SW (Intercessors vs Intercessor Squad). So the supplement is actually going to have more units in it than can be taken from the Vanilla Codex.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 17:32:56


Post by: Dysartes


 BaconCatBug wrote:
What I want to know is why SW are included. The only units they even share with the Vanilla Codex are some vehicles. All the command structure, line troops and even the primaris squads are changed for SW (Intercessors vs Intercessor Squad). So the supplement is actually going to have more units in it than can be taken from the Vanilla Codex.


Aye, if the Grey Knights get an exception because they don't follow the Codex Astartes, why the heck are the SW and DW in there, as neither of those use Codex-adherent organisations...


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 17:34:10


Post by: Martel732


BA are, but don't get the vanilla units.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 17:44:44


Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl


WhiteDog wrote:
Everytime it was justified by GW thanks to lore reasons. For exemple, Stormtalon and Stormhawk are pilotted by techmarines, and DA are suspicious of techmarines because they are loyal to mars, and thus they built their own flyers, the nephilim and the dark talon, who are pilotted by ravenwing members.

That makes no sense. The drivers aren't hardwired to the seats during construction. It's very easy to take a Stormtalon and have it be fly by a ravenwing marine. What is NOT easy is to design and build a completely different vehicle.
 BaconCatBug wrote:
What I want to know is why SW are included. The only units they even share with the Vanilla Codex are some vehicles. All the command structure, line troops and even the primaris squads are changed for SW (Intercessors vs Intercessor Squad). So the supplement is actually going to have more units in it than can be taken from the Vanilla Codex.

All the command structure and line troops are the same, except for the Legend Olmarines, which are not relevant to GW anymore.
 Dysartes wrote:
Aye, if the Grey Knights get an exception because they don't follow the Codex Astartes, why the heck are the SW and DW in there, as neither of those use Codex-adherent organisations...

That's not the reason why Grey Knights get an exception. They get an exception because Grey Knights don't use primaris.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 18:00:29


Post by: Darnok


This change was long overdue, and I for one am happy that GW is finally pushing for a "one main codex, supplements for variations, just one stand-alone exception book" approach.

My biggest headscratcher is the choice on some of those supplement choices. I completely get Grey Knights deserving a book of their own, they are that far off the CA it is not even funny. But where exactly are Deathwatch and Space Wolves close enough to the CA? Yeah, both have access to (almost) the complete range of SM miniatures, but the variations in rules and background terms are pretty substantial. In my opinion both of these would benefit of a book of their own.

On the other end of the spectrum are BA and DA, who never should have gotten a massive codex of their own to begin with. Their unique units, special rules and background are perfectly handled by a supplement book.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 18:01:01


Post by: harlokin


 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
Everytime it was justified by GW thanks to lore reasons. For exemple, Stormtalon and Stormhawk are pilotted by techmarines, and DA are suspicious of techmarines because they are loyal to mars, and thus they built their own flyers, the nephilim and the dark talon, who are pilotted by ravenwing members.

That makes no sense. The drivers aren't hardwired to the seats during construction. It's very easy to take a Stormtalon and have it be fly by a ravenwing marine. What is NOT easy is to design and build a completely different vehicle.


It makes sense in the historical context of the setting. The First Legion were armed with equipment that would be unfamilar to Mars, in case they would have to fight them.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 18:03:04


Post by: Martel732


And that is why I'd squat DW, GK, and SW. Oh, I know it's unpopular, but power armor vs power armor is just a stupid matchup and happens far too often.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 18:06:23


Post by: Sterling191


Martel732 wrote:
And that is why I'd squat DW, GK, and SW. Oh, I know it's unpopular, but power armor vs power armor is just a stupid matchup and happens far too often.


"The only people allowed to play marines are the people I want to play marines".

It was a bs argument the first time you vomited it up, and its still a bs argument. And the hypocrisy of it coming from someone who swears by their Blood Angels is just the cherry on top of the gak sundae.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 18:41:12


Post by: Martel732


Sterling191 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
And that is why I'd squat DW, GK, and SW. Oh, I know it's unpopular, but power armor vs power armor is just a stupid matchup and happens far too often.


"The only people allowed to play marines are the people I want to play marines".

It was a bs argument the first time you vomited it up, and its still a bs argument. And the hypocrisy of it coming from someone who swears by their Blood Angels is just the cherry on top of the gak sundae.


I'd squat them, too, if it fixed the problem. It's amazing that you can't see a problem with so damn many power armor lists.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 18:47:09


Post by: BaconCatBug


Martel732 wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
And that is why I'd squat DW, GK, and SW. Oh, I know it's unpopular, but power armor vs power armor is just a stupid matchup and happens far too often.


"The only people allowed to play marines are the people I want to play marines".

It was a bs argument the first time you vomited it up, and its still a bs argument. And the hypocrisy of it coming from someone who swears by their Blood Angels is just the cherry on top of the gak sundae.


I'd squat them, too, if it fixed the problem. It's amazing that you can't see a problem with so damn many power armor lists.
All it would do is make the former DW GK SW players play Black/Silver/BlueGrey Vanilla Marines.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 19:07:29


Post by: Martel732


That's quite likely.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 19:10:04


Post by: Dysartes


Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
Aye, if the Grey Knights get an exception because they don't follow the Codex Astartes, why the heck are the SW and DW in there, as neither of those use Codex-adherent organisations...

That's not the reason why Grey Knights get an exception. They get an exception because Grey Knights don't use primaris.


I'm merely pointing out that the reason given in the WHC article announcing this SNAFU makes that claim (see the footnote), and it makes no Emperor-damned sense.

Martel732 wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
And that is why I'd squat DW, GK, and SW. Oh, I know it's unpopular, but power armor vs power armor is just a stupid matchup and happens far too often.


"The only people allowed to play marines are the people I want to play marines".

It was a bs argument the first time you vomited it up, and its still a bs argument. And the hypocrisy of it coming from someone who swears by their Blood Angels is just the cherry on top of the gak sundae.


I'd squat them, too, if it fixed the problem. It's amazing that you can't see a problem with so damn many power armor lists.


At this point, I'm thinking the best solution would be to squat you as a player/poster.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 19:14:06


Post by: Martel732


"At this point, I'm thinking the best solution would be to squat you as a player/poster.'

For an unpopular view? Won't have many posters left at that rate.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 19:28:21


Post by: BrianDavion


The fact is, Marines are GW's most popular army, squatting varient armies won't do anything, if Space Wolves cease to exist you won't suddenly see more people playing Eldar. (you might however see less people PLAYING 40k)

I BTW voted no on the poll, I don't object to this merger totally, IF DONE RIGHT but I'm not confidant GW'll do a veyr good job of this.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 19:41:22


Post by: Void__Dragon


Martel732 wrote:
"At this point, I'm thinking the best solution would be to squat you as a player/poster.'

For an unpopular view? Won't have many posters left at that rate.


Your view is pretty aggressively gakky to be fair. Good thing you'll never get what you want.

As far as the thread: good.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 19:48:57


Post by: AnomanderRake


For people who are tired of listening to Martel you can hit the "ignore" button in the bottom right of any of his posts, and then you don't have to read them.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 19:54:09


Post by: Void__Dragon


 AnomanderRake wrote:
For people who are tired of listening to Martel you can hit the "ignore" button in the bottom right of any of his posts, and then you don't have to read them.


But I'm not a punk bitch.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 20:05:30


Post by: WhiteDog


 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
Everytime it was justified by GW thanks to lore reasons. For exemple, Stormtalon and Stormhawk are pilotted by techmarines, and DA are suspicious of techmarines because they are loyal to mars, and thus they built their own flyers, the nephilim and the dark talon, who are pilotted by ravenwing members.

That makes no sense. The drivers aren't hardwired to the seats during construction. It's very easy to take a Stormtalon and have it be fly by a ravenwing marine. What is NOT easy is to design and build a completely different vehicle.

It's the admech that build stormtalon and stormhawk and form the pilots that goes with it. It's what the ad mech does : they have a monopoly on many things and they also do what they need to to keep that monopoly (like, for exemple, asking techmarines to take an oath of loyalty to mars).
The DA found the STCs for the nephilim and the dark talon, build them and form their own pilots. It's a way to prevent mars from getting too much information on what the DA are doing (even in the third edition DA codex, I believe, there is an entire paragraph on the position of techmarine on the Rock and on the fact that, while they have an important role, many things are hidden from them because they are loyal to mars). It's old lore.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 20:06:12


Post by: Sterling191


Martel732 wrote:

I'd squat them, too, if it fixed the problem. It's amazing that you can't see a problem with so damn many power armor lists.


No you wouldnt. You'd find an excuse as to why your particular choice power armor is deserving of preservation while everyone else can feth off.

In other words, precisely what you're doing in this thread.

Martel732 wrote:

For an unpopular view? Won't have many posters left at that rate.


Very, very few other posters are dropping opinions like "nobody else should even have the choice to play the factions I dont like".


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 20:24:20


Post by: Blackie


Martel732 wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
And that is why I'd squat DW, GK, and SW. Oh, I know it's unpopular, but power armor vs power armor is just a stupid matchup and happens far too often.


"The only people allowed to play marines are the people I want to play marines".

It was a bs argument the first time you vomited it up, and its still a bs argument. And the hypocrisy of it coming from someone who swears by their Blood Angels is just the cherry on top of the gak sundae.


I'd squat them, too, if it fixed the problem. It's amazing that you can't see a problem with so damn many power armor lists.


Even if GW squats them there wouldn't be less power armor lists, just less variety in those lists, which is even worse. People that own DW, GK, etc would just run their armies as space marines.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 20:56:20


Post by: Martel732


 Blackie wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
And that is why I'd squat DW, GK, and SW. Oh, I know it's unpopular, but power armor vs power armor is just a stupid matchup and happens far too often.


"The only people allowed to play marines are the people I want to play marines".

It was a bs argument the first time you vomited it up, and its still a bs argument. And the hypocrisy of it coming from someone who swears by their Blood Angels is just the cherry on top of the gak sundae.


I'd squat them, too, if it fixed the problem. It's amazing that you can't see a problem with so damn many power armor lists.


Even if GW squats them there wouldn't be less power armor lists, just less variety in those lists, which is even worse. People that own DW, GK, etc would just run their armies as space marines.


Yeah, now that I think about it, that's probably true. feth power armor oversaturation. Of course, they made an entire game about power armor vs power armor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sterling191 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

I'd squat them, too, if it fixed the problem. It's amazing that you can't see a problem with so damn many power armor lists.


No you wouldnt. You'd find an excuse as to why your particular choice power armor is deserving of preservation while everyone else can feth off.

In other words, precisely what you're doing in this thread.

Martel732 wrote:

For an unpopular view? Won't have many posters left at that rate.


Very, very few other posters are dropping opinions like "nobody else should even have the choice to play the factions I dont like".


I've said more than once GW should have used the Nids to squat the BA, so the event was actually meaningful. As it stands, the invasion of Baal meant nothing. It would have been delicious for Dante to die a meaningless death to a bug. GK shouldn't exist outside daemonhunters if at all, DW plain just shouldn't exist, and SW have become a mockery of themselves.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 21:02:28


Post by: Sterling191


Martel732 wrote:

I've said more than once GW should have used the Nids to squat the BA, so the event was actually meaningful. As it stands, the invasion of Baal meant nothing. GK shouldn't exist outside daemonhunters if at all, DW plain just shouldn't exist, and SW have become a mockery of themselves.


You cant help yourself can you. "I dont like things, therefore nobody should even have a choice to play them".

This is precisely the kind of virulent stupidity that makes the hobby unwelcome to people. Cut it the feth out, or find yourself something else to play.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 21:03:36


Post by: Martel732


Sterling191 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

I've said more than once GW should have used the Nids to squat the BA, so the event was actually meaningful. As it stands, the invasion of Baal meant nothing. GK shouldn't exist outside daemonhunters if at all, DW plain just shouldn't exist, and SW have become a mockery of themselves.


You cant help yourself can you. "I dont like things, therefore nobody should even have a choice to play them".

This is precisely the kind of virulent stupidity that makes the hobby unwelcome to people. Cut it the feth out, or find yourself something else to play.


It's not stupidity. It's my view on how to progress the game in a meaningful way. Limiting choice is part of that progress. And yes, I'm very vocal about my view on DW, GK, and SW if my opponent has them.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 21:07:16


Post by: Sterling191


Martel732 wrote:

It's not stupidity. It's my view on how to progress the game in a meaningful way. Limiting choice is part of that progress.


And now we're on to "I know how to run and develop the game better than anyone else". Do you actually read what you're writing?

Martel732 wrote:

And yes, I'm very vocal about my view on DW, GK, and SW if my opponent has them.


Admitting to being a raging gatekeeper is not the argument you think it is.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 21:08:28


Post by: Martel732


I'm no longer making an argument. Other than things you don't agree with aren't automatically stupidity.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 21:09:56


Post by: Void__Dragon


Martel732 wrote:
And yes, I'm very vocal about my view on DW, GK, and SW if my opponent has them.


How socially awkward.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 21:10:42


Post by: Sterling191


Martel732 wrote:
I'm no longer making an argument.


For once you're actually right. You're just harping about how you're better than everyone else around you, and nobody else has a say in what they can do in their hobby.

Martel732 wrote:
Other than things you don't agree with aren't automatically stupidity.


The fact that you think you have any right to dictate what other people can or cannot play speaks for itself.





Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 21:10:53


Post by: Dysartes


 Void__Dragon wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
And yes, I'm very vocal about my view on DW, GK, and SW if my opponent has them.


How socially awkward.


At least no potential opponents have to deal with it right now - what a terrible attitude to take into a game.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 21:16:41


Post by: Martel732


 Dysartes wrote:
 Void__Dragon wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
And yes, I'm very vocal about my view on DW, GK, and SW if my opponent has them.


How socially awkward.


At least no potential opponents have to deal with it right now - what a terrible attitude to take into a game.


Only as terrible as those factions are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Void__Dragon wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
And yes, I'm very vocal about my view on DW, GK, and SW if my opponent has them.


How socially awkward.


Nah, I'm quite clear about it; not awkward. It's less awkward than pretending. Don't you think it's better to let someone know that I hate their army and hate playing against it rather than them thinking its personal?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sterling191 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I'm no longer making an argument.


For once you're actually right. You're just harping about how you're better than everyone else around you, and nobody else has a say in what they can do in their hobby.

Martel732 wrote:
Other than things you don't agree with aren't automatically stupidity.


The fact that you think you have any right to dictate what other people can or cannot play speaks for itself.





You seem overly triggered by a hypothetical that will never happen.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 21:22:18


Post by: Sterling191


Martel732 wrote:

You seem overly triggered by a hypothetical that will never happen.


Yes, how dare I take issue with your sadistic fixation on destroying other people's fun because you think you somehow have the right to control everything in the 40k verse. I cant imagine why that kind of toxic harrasment would get me riled up.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 21:23:14


Post by: gkos


Well this thread has broken down, when I started we just had A book, and no internet, everything was in it.

Enjoy the game, play your armies and have fun!


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 21:28:03


Post by: Apple Peel


Sterling191 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

You seem overly triggered by a hypothetical that will never happen.


Yes, how dare I take issue with your sadistic fixation on destroying other people's fun because you think you somehow have the right to control everything in the 40k verse. I cant imagine why that kind of toxic harrasment would get me riled up.

Martel is a fool and such, but you bigging him up to some evil maniac makes you look like one as well.
He’s been very clear in the past that he doesn’t like all the different variants of same marine or +1 marines (depending on how the rules worked, this could be BA/SW, or just DW and GK).

You act as if the guy is game-Hitler when his opinion is just poor.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 21:30:42


Post by: Not Online!!!


Considering he is a BA player and was for a squatting of his own faction i feel like he has a point...

Where's the supposed Stagnation and dark Times when chapter insta doubled in strength by primaris after the Galaxy got a new arsecrack?

Also it's not even halfed because heroics!


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 21:37:15


Post by: Apple Peel


Not Online!!! wrote:
Considering he is a BA player and was for a squatting of his own faction i feel like he has a point...

Where's the supposed Stagnation and dark Times when chapter insta doubled in strength by primaris after the Galaxy got a new arsecrack?

Also it's not even halfed because heroics!

And then you must add in that his opinion is also weakened by how he refuses to adapt his army with the times. Or how he doesn’t do Overwatch.

Quite simply a problem as well is believing just because someone claims to play a faction means their opinion about said faction is knowledgeable and worthwhile.

I see so many “... and I play these guys, so I should know!” endings to replies that might contradict or seemingly misrepresent their own faction or show the speaker’s lack of knowledge on a particular issue.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 21:40:07


Post by: Sterling191


 Apple Peel wrote:

Martel is a fool and such, but you bigging him up to some evil maniac makes you look like one as well.


I have no tolerance for anyone who tries to dictate how other people play. None. And I have no issue whatsoever wearing that label in this particular context.

 Apple Peel wrote:

He’s been very clear in the past that he doesn’t like all the different variants of same marine or +1 marines (depending on how the rules worked, this could be BA/SW, or just DW and GK).


There's a fundamental difference between not liking something (seriously, we've all got a laundry list of things we'd like to see altered about 40k), and actively advocating for imposing complete control over how other people play the game and interact with the hobby. Martel is firmly, publicly, and unrepentantly in the latter category.



Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 21:40:34


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Apple Peel wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Considering he is a BA player and was for a squatting of his own faction i feel like he has a point...

Where's the supposed Stagnation and dark Times when chapter insta doubled in strength by primaris after the Galaxy got a new arsecrack?

Also it's not even halfed because heroics!

And then you must add in that his opinion is also weakened by how he refuses to adapt his army with the times. Or how he doesn’t do Overwatch.

Quite simply a problem as well is believing just because someone claims to play a faction means their opinion about said faction is knowledgeable and worthwhile.

I see so many “... and I play these guys, so I should know!” endings to replies that might contradict or seemingly misrepresent their own faction or show the speaker’s lack of knowledge on a particular issue.

Not bothering to roll Overwatch is actually done a lot.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 21:45:27


Post by: Apple Peel


Sterling191 wrote:
 Apple Peel wrote:

Martel is a fool and such, but you bigging him up to some evil maniac makes you look like one as well.


I have no tolerance for anyone who tries to dictate how other people play. None. And I have no issue whatsoever wearing that label in this particular context.

 Apple Peel wrote:

He’s been very clear in the past that he doesn’t like all the different variants of same marine or +1 marines (depending on how the rules worked, this could be BA/SW, or just DW and GK).


There's a fundamental difference between not liking something (seriously, we've all got a laundry list of things we'd like to see altered about 40k), and actively advocating for imposing complete control over how other people play the game and interact with the hobby. Martel is firmly, publicly, and unrepentantly in the latter category.


Oh, how bold, a paladin of the people!
Oh, you make him antagonistically out to be a boogeyman and jump to dog him as quick-as-can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just kiss him already.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 21:48:28


Post by: Kanluwen


 AnomanderRake wrote:
For people who are tired of listening to Martel you can hit the "ignore" button in the bottom right of any of his posts, and then you don't have to read them.

Unfortunately, you still do if people quote him...we don't have that technology yet!


With regards to why Space Wolves and Dark Angels get the C: Space Marines treatment 'because they're not codex adherent'?
They're just as codex adherent as the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Black Templars are...but those three have been in C: SM for years!


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 21:51:55


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Kanluwen wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
For people who are tired of listening to Martel you can hit the "ignore" button in the bottom right of any of his posts, and then you don't have to read them.

Unfortunately, you still do if people quote him...we don't have that technology yet!


With regards to why Space Wolves and Dark Angels get the C: Space Marines treatment 'because they're not codex adherent'?
They're just as codex adherent as the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Black Templars are...but those three have been in C: SM for years!

If anything, Iron Hands are MUCH less compliant than any of them barring Templars


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 21:58:25


Post by: Void__Dragon


Martel732 wrote:


Nah, I'm quite clear about it; not awkward. It's less awkward than pretending. Don't you think it's better to let someone know that I hate their army and hate playing against it rather than them thinking its personal?


This dude admits that he is so upset at the very sight of those armies that his voice is quivering in anger and his eyes are starting to tear up so his opponent would know something's wrong, so he has to tell them how butthurt he is lest people think it's personal. And then wonders why I said that was socially awkward, lol!


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 22:01:11


Post by: Apple Peel


 Void__Dragon wrote:
Martel732 wrote:


Nah, I'm quite clear about it; not awkward. It's less awkward than pretending. Don't you think it's better to let someone know that I hate their army and hate playing against it rather than them thinking its personal?


This dude admits that he is so upset at the very sight of those armies that his voice is quivering in anger and his eyes are starting to tear up so his opponent would know something's wrong, so he has to tell them how butthurt he is lest people think it's personal. And then wonders why I said that was socially awkward, lol!

Mm.
You’re doing it, too.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 22:13:12


Post by: Crimson


Martel732 wrote:
And yes, I'm very vocal about my view on DW, GK, and SW if my opponent has them.

Dear Athe! No wonder you have miserable time with this game! Generally I assume that people who are toxic on the internet can mostly behave like somewhat normal human beings in the real life, but apparently not.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 22:22:27


Post by: Darnok


Just don't feed the troll...


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 22:38:05


Post by: WhiteDog


 Kanluwen wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
For people who are tired of listening to Martel you can hit the "ignore" button in the bottom right of any of his posts, and then you don't have to read them.

Unfortunately, you still do if people quote him...we don't have that technology yet!


With regards to why Space Wolves and Dark Angels get the C: Space Marines treatment 'because they're not codex adherent'?
They're just as codex adherent as the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Black Templars are...but those three have been in C: SM for years!

Black Templars are not codex adherent.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 22:41:40


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Darnok wrote:
Just don't feed the troll...

Denyieng Debate by claiming trolling or Bad intent of the other Party is also not impressive...

Neither BA not SW dying would be out of place for 40k and would probably keep the Stagnation and cruelty of the universe better as a theme then them existing.

Depending on execution the death of sw by the Hands of the Inquisition as an extremely callous and dangerous Institution would be better then the grimderp rellied instead on to Make them Seen dangerous in the Background with them nuking planets left right and center.

And whilest he could've argued his point better , that doesn't Make it necessarily a Bad point or Moor now doesn't it?


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 22:58:26


Post by: Type40


Honestly, this is ridiculous.

GW wants me to buy they're slightly bigger bikes (even though i have bikes), slightly bigger more flying tanks (even though i already have tanks), slightly bigger marines (even though I already have marines).

Now, GW sits back and goes.... "well we cant get people to buy the new version of what they already have if what they already have is particularly unique and un-replacable... you know what,,,, lets just make the unique factions as generic as the others and then they ll want to buy this gak they already bought from us before..." -- generic capitalistic GW executive.

Honestly, this is stupid , I just finished building a SW army and now everything unique about them is moot. they making the armies uniform so we all buy the same gak they already sold us.

Why would I play helblasters when I can play long fangs,,, will no longer be a question... why would I play blood claws instead of assault primaris,,, dumb question now... Everything unique about space wolf units is just gonna be erased so we have no reason to stick to the unique units...

I guess no more wolf gaurd in our units... got to be codex compliant now. Nothing that makes this factions players feel like they didnt just spend $3000s on something unique and customized to them... honestly, I am so unmotivated to play the wolves i jsut finished the last year building and starting to paint... I hate primaris and I hate regular space marines from a lore perspecitve. Even though they havnt been as good I love playing the flavourful space wolf units. I didnt care that they were worse then primaris because I got to play out these unique stories and the mechanics represented the lore in a unique and different way... now,,, i got some generic space marines with wolf tales ...

I dont want chaplains, I dont want apothocaries, I dont want librarians, I dont want tactical marines, I dont want generic terminators, I dont want squades with no wolf gaurd, I dont non-melee dreadnaughts, I dont want primaris, I dont want assault marines, I don't want captains or lieutenants.

I just want the unique army with unique mechanics that I signed up for. Like I havnt said how stupid I think Primaris is until now. Its honestly GW selling us the same gak all over again but slightly bigger, how does no one else see this. And now, I can't even play the unique stuff i wanted to because they are pushing so hard to get me to buy this bs.

anyone want to buy 4000 pts of space wolves (sans any primaris but ragnar) contact me. I honestly am so disillusioned right now.

I honestly hate this. I wanted to play a unique faction, I didnt want to play space marines.

I quit when 6th edition came out because my chaos army was basically nerfed to gak so I would buy new models and now the same thing is happening from 8th to 9th,,, I honestly don't know why i bother with this company. I am so cheesed right now.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 23:03:42


Post by: Not Online!!!


Could be worse ,could get squatted , but i feel partially for you and partially overreacting.,

We have no idea how much unique Stuff will be available and restrictions in the am dex without the supplements, safest bet is all that has a Modell will survive, is it gakky that you atleast have to buy 2 books now, absolutely so bitte with your wallet in this.

Otoh primaris are indeed just buy completely new second army because.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 23:05:44


Post by: Argive


About ruddy time... The thing is they announced they will churn out more supplements so... it will just go back to how things are now post PA with rules scattered around 5 different books.


Not sure If I wont just stick to painting and modelling this year. I'm getting the rulebook but already it seems I need a new CA book and a bunch of FAQ's are needed so it seems like a poor investemnt already lol.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 23:17:48


Post by: Type40


Not Online!!! wrote:
Could be worse ,could get squatted , but i feel partially for you and partially overreacting.,

We have no idea how much unique Stuff will be available and restrictions in the am dex without the supplements, safest bet is all that has a Modell will survive, is it gakky that you atleast have to buy 2 books now, absolutely so bitte with your wallet in this.

Otoh primaris are indeed just buy completely new second army because.


Space wolves, outside of vehicles and primaris, literally do not have a sing unit in common with regular SM at the current moment. Each unit has its own kit(or at least recently had one) and has a unique take/set of mechanics. Why would we have blood claws if we already have assault marines... why long fangs if devestators... or elite scouts if we have troop scouts ( because space wolf scouts arnt recruits). Sure it is vaguely possible a rule to allow a wolfgaurd leader in units may be included but it feels unlikely. What is the likelyhood that this supplement would give access to the unique squads ? to the unique wagerer options ? the unique mechanics ?
I really dont think the supplement is gonna repeat the variation units ,,, and thus the army becomes generic space marines.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 23:20:14


Post by: Not Online!!!


Oh it will repeat because the kits exist and are produced by gw.
Think Off it as just another tax to play your wolves by beeing forced to buy 2 books atleast now



Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 23:21:03


Post by: Hellebore


This argument has been going for 20 years.

I wrote one page summaries of the space wolves (my main army) that integrate with the core marine codex 15 years ago.

It's not hard to do.

Because in the end, the differences between even the space wolves and BT and normal marines are pretty small.

If you distill the differences to dot point modifications to existing units, you can easily see how similar they are.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 23:29:56


Post by: Type40


honestly, if they do just re-release everything unique. Then i dont need the generic SM codex except maybe 5 pages.
I am not buying an entire codex for 5 pages.

And otherwise, why not just let them sell the space wolf kits as "aesthetic kits." the blood claw kits have been out of stock for years, they stopped making the long fang specific kits. Are they going to continue supporting the 15+ finecast wolf kits ?

I dunno,, I am worried they wont and to be honest, financially, why would they... they want me to buy primaris and replace my old stuff. I wont do that if i can play my more flavourful stuff.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 23:30:11


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


WhiteDog wrote:It's the admech that build stormtalon and stormhawk and form the pilots that goes with it. It's what the ad mech does : they have a monopoly on many things and they also do what they need to to keep that monopoly (like, for exemple, asking techmarines to take an oath of loyalty to mars).
The DA found the STCs for the nephilim and the dark talon, build them and form their own pilots. It's a way to prevent mars from getting too much information on what the DA are doing (even in the third edition DA codex, I believe, there is an entire paragraph on the position of techmarine on the Rock and on the fact that, while they have an important role, many things are hidden from them because they are loyal to mars). It's old lore.
But, two things:
1 - The DA have Techmarines. Their current Codex has a Techmarine entry. Therefore, if they have Techmarines, why don't they just deploy them with their non-Fallen Hunting forces, so that there's no risk of split loyalties? Things like Thunderfire Cannons, Stormhawks, Stormtalons, etc could all be deployed in Greenwing formations. I mean, they already have Stormravens in their Codex. Why are Stormravens fine, but Stormtalons aren't?

2 - Why can't the DA just have their Ravenwing trained pilots fly the Stormhawks and Stormtalons? After all, who drives the Land Raiders and Stormravens that the Deathwing no doubt use? More than likely specialist Inner Circle operators - just goes to show how a "generic" datasheet can be fluffed to be more more in-fitting. After all, I don't see the DA needing their own Deathwing Land Raider entry or Deathwing Stormraven?

Martel732 wrote:It's not stupidity. It's my view on how to progress the game in a meaningful way.
If you felt that strongly about not having power armour oversaturation, you'd sell off your own Marines.

If you can't do that, then you have no ground to expect anyone else to.

WhiteDog wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
They're just as codex adherent as the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Black Templars are...but those three have been in C: SM for years!

Black Templars are not codex adherent.
Yes... that's the point. Can't speak for Salamanders much (barring slightly larger but fewer companies), but Iron Hands and Black Templars have barely anything in common with the Codex Astartes - and yet have been part of the core SM book for over a decade.

Hell, the Dark Angels are Codex Adherent in 4/5ths of their whole Chapter. The DA are only unique insofar as their 1st and 2nd Companies, and in the case of the former, it's far more to do with operational strategy and mission role rather than any inherent uniqueness.

Type40 wrote:I just want the unique army with unique mechanics that I signed up for. Like I havnt said how stupid I think Primaris is until now. Its honestly GW selling us the same gak all over again but slightly bigger, how does no one else see this. And now, I can't even play the unique stuff i wanted to because they are pushing so hard to get me to buy this bs.

anyone want to buy 4000 pts of space wolves (sans any primaris but ragnar) contact me. I honestly am so disillusioned right now.

I honestly hate this. I wanted to play a unique faction, I didnt want to play space marines.
You don't have to buy Primaris any more than you did when Primaris units were added into the core SW book. This is a storm in a teacup.

You have no idea what units are getting cut, if any at all. And, guess what, it's not just Space Wolf players who have Firstborn armies - there are plenty of people who have vast collections of Firstborn Marines with no Primaris - and their armies haven't been cut or ruined yet. You've lost nothing, as far as anyone is aware. You have no idea if you've lost units, unique mechanics, or any of the sort, so don't act like that's happened. Maybe it will. Maybe it won't. But right now, no-one knows.

Hold it until you KNOW.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 23:31:44


Post by: Type40


 Hellebore wrote:
This argument has been going for 20 years.

I wrote one page summaries of the space wolves (my main army) that integrate with the core marine codex 15 years ago.

It's not hard to do.

Because in the end, the differences between even the space wolves and BT and normal marines are pretty small.

If you distill the differences to dot point modifications to existing units, you can easily see how similar they are.


Why would GW do this though ? it doesnt make sense financially and its way more work then they have done for any other supplement (even if it is just one page)
I am not convinced this is going to end with the faction being unique at all and i am quite disappointed.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 23:34:21


Post by: Eonfuzz


 Type40 wrote:
 Hellebore wrote:
This argument has been going for 20 years.

I wrote one page summaries of the space wolves (my main army) that integrate with the core marine codex 15 years ago.

It's not hard to do.

Because in the end, the differences between even the space wolves and BT and normal marines are pretty small.

If you distill the differences to dot point modifications to existing units, you can easily see how similar they are.


Why would GW do this though ? it doesnt make sense financially and its way more work then they have done for any other supplement (even if it is just one page)
I am not convinced this is going to end with the faction being unique at all and i am quite disappointed.


A page summary is more work than re-writing a whole codex????


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 23:36:34


Post by: Type40


You have no idea what units are getting cut, if any at all. And, guess what, it's not just Space Wolf players who have Firstborn armies - there are plenty of people who have vast collections of Firstborn Marines with no Primaris - and their armies haven't been cut or ruined yet. You've lost nothing, as far as anyone is aware. You have no idea if you've lost units, unique mechanics, or any of the sort, so don't act like that's happened. Maybe it will. Maybe it won't. But right now, no-one knows.


Again, it just doesnt make sense for them to have "long fangs" and "devastators" or "blood claws" and "assault marines" or "grey hunters" and "tactical marines" or "elite scouts" and "troop scouts" etc , etc , etc ...
Its not hard to infer...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Eonfuzz wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
 Hellebore wrote:
This argument has been going for 20 years.

I wrote one page summaries of the space wolves (my main army) that integrate with the core marine codex 15 years ago.

It's not hard to do.

Because in the end, the differences between even the space wolves and BT and normal marines are pretty small.

If you distill the differences to dot point modifications to existing units, you can easily see how similar they are.


Why would GW do this though ? it doesnt make sense financially and its way more work then they have done for any other supplement (even if it is just one page)
I am not convinced this is going to end with the faction being unique at all and i am quite disappointed.


A page summary is more work than re-writing a whole codex????


what re-working an entire codex ?
a page summary that outlines changes to every single unit from the main codex... ya,,, thats more work then any other supplement has gotten in the past... whats confusing about that ?


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 23:42:12


Post by: Eonfuzz


Any self respecting company would have a "short list" of what is changing between revisions / versions of products.

Just... use those as footnotes


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 23:44:28


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Eonfuzz wrote:
Any self respecting company would have a "short list" of what is changing between revisions / versions of products.

Just... use those as footnotes

Considering the last two ca' has changes harking back to Index and the older ca for no reason i doubt gw has someone that does that...


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 23:55:06


Post by: Hellebore


It's literally just cutting the unique components out of the units and putting them in a list, nothing about needing to rewrite them.


For the space wolves the units are harder than the characters as the characters don't have different stats, just different special rules and weapon options.

I imagine GW will have:

Thunderwolves
fenrisian wolves
Wulfen


as unique datasheets

and just say:

Tactical squads
Space wolf tactical squads replace their options with the list below:

xxxxxx

Assault squads
Space wolf assault squads replace their options with the list below:
May take 15 for x

XXXXXX


And so on.








Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/26 23:58:02


Post by: Type40


 Hellebore wrote:
It's literally just cutting the unique components out of the units and putting them in a list, nothing about needing to rewrite them.


For the space wolves the units are harder than the characters as the characters don't have different stats, just different special rules and weapon options.

I imagine GW will have:

Thunderwolves
fenrisian wolves
Wulfen


as unique datasheets

and just say:

Tactical squads
Space wolf tactical squads replace their options with the list below:

xxxxxx

Assault squads
Space wolf assault squads replace their options with the list below:
May take 15 for x

XXXXXX


And so on.








again, why would they do that, they didnt for any other supplement... and how would that encourage us to get primaris ... primaris are directly better then tactical marines,,, the uniqueness of space wolves own stuff isnt necessarily... they got to make our stuff just like everything else so we can "naturally" decide to buy the clearly better replacement stuff.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 00:07:06


Post by: Kanluwen


Ultramarines got their Tyrannic War Veterans, Victrix Guard, and Honor Guard in their supplement.
Black Templars got, at the least, their Sword Brethren.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 00:13:53


Post by: Hellebore


 Type40 wrote:
 Hellebore wrote:
It's literally just cutting the unique components out of the units and putting them in a list, nothing about needing to rewrite them.


For the space wolves the units are harder than the characters as the characters don't have different stats, just different special rules and weapon options.

I imagine GW will have:

Thunderwolves
fenrisian wolves
Wulfen


as unique datasheets

and just say:

Tactical squads
Space wolf tactical squads replace their options with the list below:

xxxxxx

Assault squads
Space wolf assault squads replace their options with the list below:
May take 15 for x

XXXXXX


And so on.



again, why would they do that, they didnt for any other supplement... and how would that encourage us to get primaris ... primaris are directly better then tactical marines,,, the uniqueness of space wolves own stuff isnt necessarily... they got to make our stuff just like everything else so we can "naturally" decide to buy the clearly better replacement stuff.



I'm not sure what you're getting at - space wolves already get primaris, regardless of how grey hunters are written in a codex. And space wolf primaris are just as vanilla as everyone else's primaris, so don't need any unique profile entries.

So if you're creating a supplement for space wolves to the new marine codex, you only need to focus on those units unique to the space wolves, which I did.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 00:16:23


Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl


 harlokin wrote:
The First Legion were armed with equipment that would be unfamilar to Mars, in case they would have to fight them.

It's been 10000 years, everything else changed, and you can bet that they are familiar with it now. I mean, if they spent 10 000 years building those, they sure know how those work!
WhiteDog wrote:
The DA found the STCs for the nephilim and the dark talon, build them and form their own pilots.

Ah yes, the famous space marine factories. From the very science and industry oriented chapter of marines that don't trust the only marines with any kind of technical knowledge. Good fluff!!
WhiteDog wrote:
It's old lore.

Techmarines not being trusted is old lore. The planes being built by DA themselves isn't. It's as new as the planes themselves, introduced long after the DA's concept was finalized, and doesn't make sense.
 Type40 wrote:
Space wolves, outside of vehicles and primaris, literally do not have a sing unit in common with regular SM at the current moment.

Non-primaris non-vehicle things do not matter.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 00:29:17


Post by: Type40


 Hellebore wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
 Hellebore wrote:
It's literally just cutting the unique components out of the units and putting them in a list, nothing about needing to rewrite them.


For the space wolves the units are harder than the characters as the characters don't have different stats, just different special rules and weapon options.

I imagine GW will have:

Thunderwolves
fenrisian wolves
Wulfen


as unique datasheets

and just say:

Tactical squads
Space wolf tactical squads replace their options with the list below:

xxxxxx

Assault squads
Space wolf assault squads replace their options with the list below:
May take 15 for x

XXXXXX


And so on.



again, why would they do that, they didnt for any other supplement... and how would that encourage us to get primaris ... primaris are directly better then tactical marines,,, the uniqueness of space wolves own stuff isnt necessarily... they got to make our stuff just like everything else so we can "naturally" decide to buy the clearly better replacement stuff.



I'm not sure what you're getting at - space wolves already get primaris, regardless of how grey hunters are written in a codex. And space wolf primaris are just as vanilla as everyone else's primaris, so don't need any unique profile entries.

So if you're creating a supplement for space wolves to the new marine codex, you only need to focus on those units unique to the space wolves, which I did.


I dont think you understand.

In SW, currently, you take plasma cannon long fangs,,, not hellblasters...
In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take bloodclaws not generic primaris assault.
In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take grey hunters, not generic intercessors.

also, tactical squades dont have the same rules as grey hunters, do not have the same unit allowance, do not have the same weapon options and can not have wolf gaurd added to them. Same with assault marine v.s. blood claw and etc... again, literally not a sing unit that isnt a vehicle or primaris in the SW codex has the same rules on its datasheet as the SM "equivalent." I doubt the supplement will literally change every single unit to be able to take more/less models, have wolf gaurd leaders, have unique special rules that differ from the SM version and have different weapon options,,, the supplement wont just be some second codex which literally has alternative datasheets for 80% of the core codex... you get the right?

By making these units have the same generic rules as SM then its very easy for a SW player to just get generic primaris because they are all round better.
and then later it will be easier to squat oldmarines and only offer primaris.

There is no reason for GW to support the unique units ... there is less incentive for them to put work in to making the units unique then there is for them to leave them generic... the genericness of primaris is what is holding SW, BA, DA players back from going primaris... so instead of maybe making unique primaris for each faction (what I expected) they seem to be doing the cheaper option and they will leave the old units generic so we have nothing stoping us from buying the same stuff again.

Understand ? the people who want to play their army because of the unique flavour and unique mechanics are being robbed of that so we cant use it as an excuse not to buy generic primaris. financially speaking, if GW puts in extra work to give SW , wolf lords, iron wolves, rune preists, blood claws, grey hunters, long fangs,,, etc etc etc , then they wont be getting the very significant portion of people who dont want to go primaris because they are bland and flavourless.. And they really want us to go primaris....

get a space wolf upgrade kit and get the better generic guys to look wolfy will be the general new trend... and to be honest its disappointing and feels incredibly uncreative and just very "eat your white bread,,, oh,,, here is white bread with butter,,,, dont look over there at the pumpernickel,,, we have white bread with butter!"

but for gak sake , I just want pumpernickel.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 00:33:51


Post by: Eonfuzz


I don't think you understand.
The books being merged DOES NOT mean you lose your snowflake units. It just means... that they are in the same book.



Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 00:39:08


Post by: Hellebore


Right so your problem is that GW haven't further unique-ified space wolf primaris to keep them as different from other marines as possible? Thus requiring a full codex to show these unique differences.

As much as I love my space wolves, their uniqueness is still pretty skin deep when it comes to differences with other marines.


Maybe they will rework the non primaris unique space wolf units before their supplement to make them competitive with the primaris? Possibly not.

It's clear where GW are going and I actually agree with them for a change, so I don't really see a problem.

If the supplements can allow for salamanders, white scars etc to play 'flavourfully', then they should do the same for the wolves. They aren't unique enough to make that hard.






Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 00:40:48


Post by: Type40


 Eonfuzz wrote:
I don't think you understand.
The books being merged DOES NOT mean you lose your snowflake units. It just means... that they are in the same book.



So you think there will be blood claws, grey hunters, elite scouts, long fangs, wolf lords, wolf gaurd battle leaders, wolf gaurd terminators, melee dreadnaughts, sky claws, swiftclaw bikers, and all the other units that have different rules, load out options, squad sizes, unit compositions and etc ?

You really think they are going to release a supplement that has a different version of 80% of the units in the core book ? why even make it a supplement at the point if your going to have an entire codex worth of content in it ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Hellebore wrote:
Right so your problem is that GW haven't further unique-ified space wolf primaris to keep them as different from other marines as possible? Thus requiring a full codex to show these unique differences.

As much as I love my space wolves, their uniqueness is still pretty skin deep when it comes to differences with other marines.


Maybe they will rework the non primaris unique space wolf units before their supplement to make them competitive with the primaris? Possibly not.

It's clear where GW are going and I actually agree with them for a change, so I don't really see a problem.

If the supplements can allow for salamanders, white scars etc to play 'flavourfully', then they should do the same for the wolves. They aren't unique enough to make that hard.




space wolves have had unique unit composition since 4th edition, unique unit options since 4th edition... thats like saying SM are so similar to CSM that they should be in the same book, or that deathgaurd/thousand sons dont deserve there own book... ya, some of the units are similar and they all wear power armor, but they arnt the same units. They have different rules, abilties, compositions, wargear options, and sizes.
Honestly, outside of primaris and vehicles there is not a single thing about regular SM that is the same as SW. I am sorry you have only seen primaris everything the past year and a half but I prefer to play a unique army that doest play/feel at all like generic space marines... yes it was underpowered, but it WAS unique and very different from SM. SW have been entirely different from SM since i started playing. I dont think its enough to say they are the same because they both "wear power armor." so what ? nothing else is the same, CSM and SM have that in common too.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 00:49:00


Post by: DivineVisitor


Not sure how i feel about this if it's the way it is going.

On one hand i love the Primaris 'Tactical' and Assault Intersessors.

On the other i would rather they were just that, new models without any change to the rules.

I like my Grey Hunter, Blood Claw, Long Fang and Wolf Guard Terminator squads and like them in Drop Pods, Rhino's and Land Raiders.

I have no intention of using anything as Primaris on the tabletop and i think consolidating everything to the main Space Marine Codex will accelerate the decline of the Space Marines i have grown to love over the years.

I fear this new world.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 01:00:41


Post by: Hellebore


 Type40 wrote:
 Eonfuzz wrote:
I don't think you understand.
The books being merged DOES NOT mean you lose your snowflake units. It just means... that they are in the same book.



So you think there will be blood claws, grey hunters, elite scouts, long fangs, wolf lords, wolf gaurd battle leaders, wolf gaurd terminators, melee dreadnaughts, sky claws, swiftclaw bikers, and all the other units that have different rules, load out options, squad sizes, unit compositions and etc ?

You really think they are going to release a supplement that has a different version of 80% of the units in the core book ? why even make it a supplement at the point if your going to have an entire codex worth of content in it ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Hellebore wrote:
Right so your problem is that GW haven't further unique-ified space wolf primaris to keep them as different from other marines as possible? Thus requiring a full codex to show these unique differences.

As much as I love my space wolves, their uniqueness is still pretty skin deep when it comes to differences with other marines.


Maybe they will rework the non primaris unique space wolf units before their supplement to make them competitive with the primaris? Possibly not.

It's clear where GW are going and I actually agree with them for a change, so I don't really see a problem.

If the supplements can allow for salamanders, white scars etc to play 'flavourfully', then they should do the same for the wolves. They aren't unique enough to make that hard.




space wolves have had unique unit composition since 4th edition, unique unit options since 4th edition... thats like saying SM are so similar to CSM that they should be in the same book, or that deathgaurd/thousand sons dont deserve there own book... ya, some of the units are similar and they all wear power armor, but they arnt the same units. They have different rules, abilties, compositions, wargear options, and sizes.
Honestly, outside of primaris and vehicles there is not a single thing about regular SM that is the same as SW. I am sorry you have only seen primaris everything the past year and a half but I prefer to play a unique army that doest play/feel at all like generic space marines... yes it was underpowered, but it WAS unique and very different from SM. SW have been entirely different from SM since i started playing. I dont think its enough to say they are the same because they both "wear power armor." so what ? nothing else is the same, CSM and SM have that in common too.


I've been playing space wolves since their first ever codex in 2nd ed, back when they had WS5 on blood claws. From then till now their differences were - slightly better in melee than other marines, more varied loadout for terminators, and concentration of heavy weapons in heavy support.

frostblades, frost cannons, etc don't change how they play. Whether you have a frostblade, thunder hammer or lightning claw, you're still charging into combat.

Intercessors are actually MORE like grey hunters than they are like tactical marines - no heavy or special weapon options, good close combat abilities.

So I'm not sure what you expect to change on primaris to make them uniquely space wolfy - their chapter tactics will already making them different from other primaris.


you use the phrase unique unit composition with more importance than it really is. Currently Grey hunters can take:

2 special weapons
one plasma pistol.
a wolf standard.
special close combat weapon on the pack leader


Wolf guard pack leaders, which are available to all wolf squads, don't need repeating across every entry and can either be a unique Elite entry, or just an entry in the codex that says it attaches to other units.

GW could quite easily put in a supplement:

Tactical squads and intercessor squads replace their options with the following:

2 special weapons
one plasma pistol.
a wolf standard.
special close combat weapon on the pack leader



Hey presto, grey hunters and unique intercessors (huntercessors...).


beacuse as I said, when you objectively distill the differences between these and vanilla units down to dot points, those differences are tiny.















Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 01:02:49


Post by: Type40


its cool, lets just put CSM in the SM codex too. whats the difference ?


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 01:07:25


Post by: Voss


 Type40 wrote:
 Eonfuzz wrote:
I don't think you understand.
The books being merged DOES NOT mean you lose your snowflake units. It just means... that they are in the same book.



So you think there will be blood claws, grey hunters, elite scouts, long fangs, wolf lords, wolf gaurd battle leaders, wolf gaurd terminators, melee dreadnaughts, sky claws, swiftclaw bikers, and all the other units that have different rules, load out options, squad sizes, unit compositions and etc ?

You really think they are going to release a supplement that has a different version of 80% of the units in the core book ? why even make it a supplement at the point if your going to have an entire codex worth of content in it ?

Why make a codex when there is only a supplement's worth of content in it?

Don't get hung up on the name of the type of book.

You'll likely only see two real changes-
one, in the future, SW stuff will get updated when normal marine stuff does.
two, you're buying an extra book.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 01:07:42


Post by: Apple Peel


 Type40 wrote:
its cool, lets just put CSM in the SM codex too. whats the difference ?

Faction allegiances. Don’t act like this is a hot take.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 01:07:45


Post by: AnomanderRake


 Type40 wrote:
...space wolves have had unique unit composition since 4th edition, unique unit options since 4th edition... thats like saying SM are so similar to CSM that they should be in the same book, or that deathgaurd/thousand sons dont deserve there own book... ya, some of the units are similar and they all wear power armor, but they arnt the same units. They have different rules, abilties, compositions, wargear options, and sizes...


I will note that in the 4e SM book two-special-weapon Tacticals were a distinctly Salamanders thing, and Terminator squad leaders were an Iron Hands thing, which got dumped in 5e. Yes, the Space Wolves have unique stuff, but if you took the stuff that GW took away from everyone else to make the Space Wolves more distinct they have about the same amount of unique stuff as the BA/DA.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 01:10:33


Post by: DivineVisitor


 Hellebore wrote:


I've been playing space wolves since their first ever codex in 2nd ed, back when they had WS5 on blood claws. From then till now their differences were - slightly better in melee than other marines, more varied loadout for terminators, and concentration of heavy weapons in heavy support.


The good old days


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 01:21:44


Post by: Type40


 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
...space wolves have had unique unit composition since 4th edition, unique unit options since 4th edition... thats like saying SM are so similar to CSM that they should be in the same book, or that deathgaurd/thousand sons dont deserve there own book... ya, some of the units are similar and they all wear power armor, but they arnt the same units. They have different rules, abilties, compositions, wargear options, and sizes...


I will note that in the 4e SM book two-special-weapon Tacticals were a distinctly Salamanders thing, and Terminator squad leaders were an Iron Hands thing, which got dumped in 5e. Yes, the Space Wolves have unique stuff, but if you took the stuff that GW took away from everyone else to make the Space Wolves more distinct they have about the same amount of unique stuff as the BA/DA.


I wouldnt disagree, but I also think BA/DA should have their own books.

Why make a codex when there is only a supplement's worth of content in it?

Don't get hung up on the name of the type of book.

You'll likely only see two real changes-
one, in the future, SW stuff will get updated when normal marine stuff does.
two, you're buying an extra book.


Except its not a supplements worth of stuff. every thing the SW codex except some vehicles and primaris is different. I count 56 unique datasheets in the SW codex... 56 datasheets with different rules, unit sizes, unit gear, unit compositions then SM.... 56 datasheets is not a supplements worth of stuff. Again, you guys all just think SW are the same because all you see on the table are Primaris SW .... it is a completely different army sans primaris. again 56 unique datasheets.
If a supplement can bring all of that,,, then fine, GW isnt trying to white bread these factions so we can buy their white bread with butter instead. but realistically, i dont think they are gonna make a supplement with 56 unique datasheets when they already have a corebook...

Faction allegiances. Don’t act like this is a hot take.

so what, SW are not codex compliant, even now i cant take a space wolf unit in an ultramarine detatchment ?
if it was about faction allegiences, why no grey knights ? could it be that grey knights wont get primaris ? so they dont have to white bread them so they go for the white bread with butter instead?

Honestly, how do people think SW are pretty much SM ,,,, are TS the same as CSM ?
SW are as different to SM as CSM is to SM.






Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 01:34:17


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Type40 wrote:I dont think you understand.

In SW, currently, you take plasma cannon long fangs,,, not hellblasters...
Why are Hellblasters in the current Space Wolves Codex then?
In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take bloodclaws not generic primaris assault.
But Assault Primaris would be well integrated into the Space Wolves Chapter. Your idea of fluff is "pre-Primaris fluff, aka, what I say".
In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take grey hunters, not generic intercessors.
Intercessors are also well adopted by the Space Wolves.
You're sounding awfully gate-keepy on what a "real" Space Wolves army is. If someone made an all-Primaris Space Wolves list, but leant strongly into aggressive play, enjoyed their lore, and the SW aesthetic, why aren't they a proper SW player, according to you?

The important part is to recognise that that both Firstborn and Primaris Marines are equally valid parts of a Space Wolves army, and as long as you get to pick the units *you* want for *your* army, that's what matters. And right now, there's no indication that Grey Hunters/Blood Claws/Long Fangs are leaving.

Type40 wrote:SW are as different to SM as CSM is to SM.
They're really not.

Unless you can point to Chaos Primaris equivalents, that is (and before you say Space Wolves don't have Primaris, their current Codex has more than enough)/


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 01:36:29


Post by: Eonfuzz


A "Unique Datasheet" isn't a marine with +1 attack and a chainsword.

You could very, very easily have a visual pop out on the side of the book.

< SPACE WOLVES > Wolf Scouts
Space wolves must replace the Scout statline with the following....
< STATLINE IMAGE HERE>
Additionally, Wolf Scouts may replace their Bolter with any weapon from the Furries weapon list


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 01:43:57


Post by: AnomanderRake


 Type40 wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
...space wolves have had unique unit composition since 4th edition, unique unit options since 4th edition... thats like saying SM are so similar to CSM that they should be in the same book, or that deathgaurd/thousand sons dont deserve there own book... ya, some of the units are similar and they all wear power armor, but they arnt the same units. They have different rules, abilties, compositions, wargear options, and sizes...


I will note that in the 4e SM book two-special-weapon Tacticals were a distinctly Salamanders thing, and Terminator squad leaders were an Iron Hands thing, which got dumped in 5e. Yes, the Space Wolves have unique stuff, but if you took the stuff that GW took away from everyone else to make the Space Wolves more distinct they have about the same amount of unique stuff as the BA/DA.


I wouldnt disagree, but I also think BA/DA should have their own books...


How much of the army book needs to be unique for them to get a whole reprinted book instead of a supplement? Dark Angels (as of the Codex, not counting the Primaris Vanguard release) have 47 datasheets copy-pasted from the Space Marines, 9 datasheets that are standard units with slight tweaks (ex. Land Speeders with an extra keyword), 9 datasheets that are significantly different, and 6 named characters, and some of those significantly different datasheets are faction-locking Terminator/Bike command squad characters and Bike Veterans away from, say, the White Scars (who you'd expect to have access to Bike Veterans).


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 02:49:20


Post by: bullyboy


would love for an Angels of death supplement with both BA and DA in it, talk about a throwback.

As it stands, I'm sure they'll have standalone books, with their own unique units (Deathwing characters, Knights, Ravenwing characters, knights, fighters). The rest will just need keywords, unique strats, relics and WTs. I'll use Impeccable Mobility for the time being until they nerf it into the ground.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 03:00:39


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Type40 wrote:
its cool, lets just put CSM in the SM codex too. whats the difference ?

Well Renegade Chapters SHOULD be represented by the main Marine codex so...


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 04:00:07


Post by: Slayer6


It's going to fulfill the exact same role as the Index at the start of 8E...


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 08:27:44


Post by: Cornishman


Wow.... so much talk of various Chapters losing what makes them unique... I really don't think any Chapter will lose something that makes them 'different'.

I have been of the opinion that this is the best way to go since forever, as all the loyalist marines (ex. GK) are more similar then they are different (yes even SW).

As others have said I think it'll work alot like the index era at the start of 8E - Alongside the new, all inclusive (okay not GK) Marine Codex we'll probably get a big FAQ telling us for Divergent Chapter to refer to (the old) Codex: Divergent for the following units (A, B, C....) that Divergent Chapter may not take the following Units from (this new) Codex: Marines (D, E, F), and the the following units (G. H. I) get the following alterations <add/remove keywords/ wargear choices as required>.

Upon release of Chapter: Divergent Supplement this information is presented in a nicer manner (with more pics). Presumably one or two named dudes will have crossed the rubricon, and possibly Divergent Chapter will get some sorta Chapter Specific Primaris Unit/ upgrade sprue thingy.

Going (back) to this model will mean that Chapters don't spend some time awaiting for updates introduced elsewhere to trickle through to thier stand alone codex (and hopefully cut down on those copy/paste errors when points are adjusted).


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 09:35:48


Post by: BrianDavion


Cornishman wrote:
I really don't think any Chapter will lose something that makes them 'different'.


Then you have more faith in GW then some of us.
As I said, I'm not 100% opposed, I'm just leery as it could be a disaster for the impacted armies


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 09:41:32


Post by: Not Online!!!


wow, if that is an disaster how'd you call the 4th ed CSM dex?

Or by any margine squatting?


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 09:41:53


Post by: BaconCatBug


 Type40 wrote:
honestly, if they do just re-release everything unique. Then i dont need the generic SM codex except maybe 5 pages.
I am not buying an entire codex for 5 pages.

And otherwise, why not just let them sell the space wolf kits as "aesthetic kits." the blood claw kits have been out of stock for years, they stopped making the long fang specific kits. Are they going to continue supporting the 15+ finecast wolf kits ?

I dunno,, I am worried they wont and to be honest, financially, why would they... they want me to buy primaris and replace my old stuff. I wont do that if i can play my more flavourful stuff.
I've been doing some thinking.

The reason they rolled BA, DA, SW and DW into the main codex isn't necessarily for datasheet sharing (although that does help, re: Rites of Battle). It's to standardise the Stratagems available to all SM armies. It's also to allow DA, BA and SW to have proper successor chapters.

I agree for SW and DW it's a bit of a poor value proposition


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 10:48:41


Post by: Strg Alt


Yes, but it will never happen due to reduced sales for GW.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 11:06:16


Post by: Type40


@sgt_smudge

are you even reading what I have written ?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Type40 wrote:I dont think you understand.

In SW, currently, you take plasma cannon long fangs,,, not hellblasters...
Why are Hellblasters in the current Space Wolves Codex then?
Because like I said GW wants people to buy Primaris, why wouldnt they be in the codex?

In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take bloodclaws not generic primaris assault.
But Assault Primaris would be well integrated into the Space Wolves Chapter. Your idea of fluff is "pre-Primaris fluff, aka, what I say".
Yes, assault primaris are slightly bigger generic assault marines and generic assault marines fit into the SW playstyle,,,, not unique from other assault marines, but they do fit the playstyle

In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take grey hunters, not generic intercessors.
Intercessors are also well adopted by the Space Wolves.
You're sounding awfully gate-keepy on what a "real" Space Wolves army is. If someone made an all-Primaris Space Wolves list, but leant strongly into aggressive play, enjoyed their lore, and the SW aesthetic, why aren't they a proper SW player, according to you?
Seriously, I am saying the opposite. I want them to leave in the options. I am not being gate-keepy by saying "leave in my unique units and let people choose to play the competitive primaris if they want to" GW is the one who is REMOVING options.


The important part is to recognise that that both Firstborn and Primaris Marines are equally valid parts of a Space Wolves army, and as long as you get to pick the units *you* want for *your* army, that's what matters. And right now, there's no indication that Grey Hunters/Blood Claws/Long Fangs are leaving.
YES ,,, so dont remove the unique stuff about everything else.... and YES there is indication,,, they arnt going to make a supplement that replaces 30 + datasheet .... that just doest make sense


Type40 wrote:SW are as different to SM as CSM is to SM.
They're really not.

Unless you can point to Chaos Primaris equivalents, that is (and before you say Space Wolves don't have Primaris, their current Codex has more than enough)/

Like I said,, outside of Primaris CSM ARE just as similar to SM as SWs are to SM . How can you say any different ? SW totally have primaris ! and I am fine with the option being available. If fabius bile decides to make primaris,,, we can then throw CSM into the SM codex ? Is that what we are waiting for ? maybe the game should only have 4 factions ?

I am not ok with GW removing SW unique options so Primaris looks more appealing to certain kinds of players.
Primaris arn't some magical gold that GW has handed the loyalist players. they are a cash-grab. they are selling you your army a second time. you arnt buying anything unique, just bigger versions of everything you already have. And if you want to play primaris,,, great, go play primaris , have fun. I think they are boring and non-unique to SW/BA/DA ... and again, thats fine, go play them. Dont gatekeep me by telling me my book of 80% completely unique datasheets "isn't different enough to count as its own faction" if sans primaris it would be just as different as GK or CSM to SM .

let me spell it out for you, because its clear you arn't getting it.
Right now GW wants everyone to buy Primaris and re-buy their entire army.
So what did they do... they looked at regular SM and are systematically replacing each unit in the SM codex with a slight bigger, slightly different looking version and making it , rules wise, way way way better. So the SM players have obvious and direct upgrades for their units. GW wants people to think " Why play tactical marines when intercessors are just hands down better ?" and things like this. Each old unit is getting a direct upgrade and they want you to want that new shiny upgrade instead.
This is all well and good because if you want those upgrades you have the option to get them.

But GW has a problem.... they need to sell MORE primaris... and there are groups of players who CAN buy primaris but arn't ! these are some of the people who play SW, DA, BA and DW.
but why not ?
Intercessors arn't exactly a direct upgrade to greyhunters. primaris assault marines arn't exactly a direct upgrade to bloodclaws. Primaris inceptors arn't exactly an upgrade to skyclaws. The primaris fill the same roles and are WAY better. But they old units still have unique mechanics to the SW. The same thing is true with BA/DA.
So people who play these other marine factions have choices. They can play their old units with their fluffy mechanics OR they can play the new generic Primaris marines that are direct upgrades to regular SM units. They are different enough that getting the primaris unit that fills the role isn't just "the primaris version is obviously better" because they do something unique and different.
and there are a lot of people who play this other factions, especially more casually, who like the uniqueness of the old marines,,, maybe got some primaris options, but they havnt replaced everything because they think their blood claws have a fun ability / restriction. They like having wolfgaurd. or they like the abilities on the long fangs.
But now,,,, GW has a problem.... they need EVERYONE who plays any kind of marines to want to replace their old stuff with their new stuff.... but SW/BA/DA like their unique stuff and dont want to just "upgrade" maybe they ll add SOME primaris, but GW wants everyone to REPLACE AND REBUY everything they own.... so their are two financial solutions to achieve this from GW at this particular audience. 1. they can make more unique primaris so that they do become a direct upgrade like already exist with SM OR 2. they can make SW//DA/BA as generic as regular SM and achieve the same effect with way less work.
The fact is,
I am happy with other people replacing their armies with primaris. Go do it ! and enjoy your really strong army. I was even happy with the idea of buying a few primaris units to fit certain roles in my own SW army. That quade bike looks dope, maybe even a unit of assault primaris.... What I am not ok with is my unique units becoming generic, because then, I am just sitting there with a bunch of non-unique generic gak that is just objectively worse then the new the new stuff with no mechanics that at least makes those things unique and interesting...

basically, removing customization/unique elements is gakky. I am not gate keeping by saying that I want ALL the options to exist. What is gatekeeping is telling me that my unique units have no place in the game. Or telling me that my army doesn't fit the atmosphere/feel of this grimdark game. Don't squat my army just because the majority of competitive players don't play the unique options but play the generic stuff that GW is trying to spoonfeed us.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 11:06:49


Post by: Cornishman


BrianDavion wrote:
Cornishman wrote:
I really don't think any Chapter will lose something that makes them 'different'.


Then you have more faith in GW then some of us.
As I said, I'm not 100% opposed, I'm just leery as it could be a disaster for the impacted armies


Do I have more faith? Perhaps having played the game since RT I have less stringent requirements on what is required to make, or keep BA, DA. SW 'different', or maybe views such changes from the base 'Codex' as less radical than others.

SW were unique long before Thunderwolf Cav and Wulfun arrived on the scene. The simple slight change in unit structure (Blood Claws, Grey Hunters, Longfangs, Wolfguard) introduced around the dawn of 2e sets them apart, but isn’t as far removed from (Assault, Tactical, Devastator and Veterans/Terms) as many would think – that you can approximate SW specific units with a by the book, codex unit is evidence to this. I don't see unique units from anyone going anywhere until such time as a suitable primarised replacement is available, so I don't see what is being lost (other than SW having a single book, standalone Codex).

BA have been unique since the introduction of the Red Thirst. They’ve had some unique tricks since the establishment of Death Company, Bhaal Predator and Furioso Dreadnought. To me One the BAs defining traits is that at their core they are still Codex Compliant Chapter (just with a few ‘extras’)…. There isn’t a great (hidden) re-working of the structure or organisation (e.g. SW/ DA). So basing them off of Codex: SM seems entirely inkeeping with their lore. Deathcompany (Intercessors), Bhaal Pred etc... are then added in thier splat book.

The intricacies of the Deathwing or Ravenwing haven’t error needed much in the way of rules. ‘Company Veterans’ as opposed to ‘Veterans’ has been a thing for a long long time, and being able to mix and match ‘tac’ and ‘assault’ termies in the single unit is a really old thing too. Neither of these things requires extensively re-writing the armylist from C:SM ‘baseline’.

Both BA and DA have gained and lost several unique features in the games history. For instance, over several editions BA could take Assault Squads in Troops slots, and no longer can you take a Land Speeder in a Ravenwing Attack Squad (or the Attack Squad it’s self) – It is now merely a ‘Ravenwing Bike Squad’, with the max sized unit being an oddly Codex Compliant 8 bikers and an attack bike , despite it being long established in the lore as a full 10 man squad comprising of 6 bikes, an attack bike and landspeeder. Who knows perhaps such things may yet return to help differentiate things?

Plus as BCB mentioned, bringing together them helps standardised all manner of things which probably should be like Stratagem.

If however they say upon release 'thou must only draw units and rules from this new tome' and don't offer of big FAQ to keep unique units/options. Then yes, completely terrible & awful in varying degrees of severity.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 11:15:01


Post by: Crimson


People who think that one more plasmagun is a critical unique flavour are hilarious.

Like them or loathe them,Wulfen and Thunderwolf Cavalry are actually unique units. Grey Hunters, Blood Claws and Long Fangs are Tacticals, Assault, Marines and Devastators with couple of extra options.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 11:17:27


Post by: BaconCatBug


 Crimson wrote:
People who think that one more plasmagun is a critical unique flavour are hilarious.

Like them or loathe them,Wulfen and Thunderwolf Cavalry are actually unique units. Grey Hunters, Blood Claws and Long Fangs are Tacticals, Assault, Marines and Devastators with couple of extra options.
I don't understand why people think GW are going to "force" SW to take Tacticals, Assaults, and Devastators. It's far more likely that the supplement will include a list of units SW can take from the main codex (i.e. the vehicles), and keep all their unique units in the supplement. My best guess as to the "reasoning" is to standardise the stratagems available to all SM flavours, and to allow for full fat BA, DA and SW successors.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 11:28:52


Post by: Crimson


 BaconCatBug wrote:
I don't understand why people think GW are going to "force" SW to take Tacticals, Assaults, and Devastators. It's far more likely that the supplement will include a list of units SW can take from the main codex (i.e. the vehicles), and keep all their unique units in the supplement.

Yes, that is perfectly possible. I just don't get why it is a big deal either way. As long as one can keep the weapon options that they had before, what does it matter if it is via separate Grey Hunter datasheet or via 'Grey Hunter upgrade' for a Tactical Squad?


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 11:28:57


Post by: Type40


 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
People who think that one more plasmagun is a critical unique flavour are hilarious.

Like them or loathe them,Wulfen and Thunderwolf Cavalry are actually unique units. Grey Hunters, Blood Claws and Long Fangs are Tacticals, Assault, Marines and Devastators with couple of extra options.
I don't understand why people think GW are going to "force" SW to take Tacticals, Assaults, and Devastators. It's far more likely that the supplement will include a list of units SW can take from the main codex (i.e. the vehicles), and keep all their unique units in the supplement. My best guess as to the "reasoning" is to standardise the stratagems available to all SM flavours, and to allow for full fat BA, DA and SW successors.


I hope so but I am not confident. I really think this is just steps towards convincing us to upgrade to primaris.
but again, I hope your right.


People who think that one more plasmagun is a critical unique flavour are hilarious.

Like them or loathe them,Wulfen and Thunderwolf Cavalry are actually unique units. Grey Hunters, Blood Claws and Long Fangs are Tacticals, Assault, Marines and Devastators with couple of extra options.


Have you read a SW codex ? yes,,, they have different unit sizes... they also have different rules, different unit compositions and different wargear options. They can have wolfgaud leader.
Why isn't a plague marine just another chaos space marine ?
also because they have different rules, different unit compositions, unit sizes and different wargear options.
why isnt a rubric marine unit just another CSM
also because they have different rules, different unit compositions, unit sizes, wargear options and oh,, a sorcerer (kinda like a wolf gaurd leader)

if you can't see that these units arn't different, i suggest actually reading their datasheets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crimson wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
I don't understand why people think GW are going to "force" SW to take Tacticals, Assaults, and Devastators. It's far more likely that the supplement will include a list of units SW can take from the main codex (i.e. the vehicles), and keep all their unique units in the supplement.

Yes, that is perfectly possible. I just don't get why it is a big deal either way. As long as one can keep the weapon options that they had before, what does it matter if it is via separate Grey Hunter datasheet or via 'Grey Hunter upgrade' for a Tactical Squad?


Because of the alternative rules, unit sizes, compositions, and abilities these units have. Its not only about weapon options.
and even saying that, will they allow the wargear differences ? what about the incredibly customizable terminators ?


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 12:18:25


Post by: Dysartes


 BaconCatBug wrote:
My best guess as to the "reasoning" is to standardise the stratagems available to all SM flavours, and to allow for full fat BA, DA and SW successors.


Why would they be wanting SW successors, though, when (as far as I recall) the only known successor prior to the setting being murdered at the close of 7th edition was the Wolf Brothers, which ended up getting purged.

The "Ultima Founding" seems to have created the "Wolfspears", but whether they remain stable being not of Fenris is anyone's guess.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 12:40:05


Post by: Crimson


 Dysartes wrote:

Why would they be wanting SW successors, though, when (as far as I recall) the only known successor prior to the setting being murdered at the close of 7th edition was the Wolf Brothers, which ended up getting purged.

The "Ultima Founding" seems to have created the "Wolfspears", but whether they remain stable being not of Fenris is anyone's guess.

Space Wolves not having successors was always stupid and unnecessarily limiting part of the fluff and I'm glad it is gone. If people want to make SW successors they should be able to without neckbeards yelling at them about the fluff.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 13:22:54


Post by: BaconCatBug


 Dysartes wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
My best guess as to the "reasoning" is to standardise the stratagems available to all SM flavours, and to allow for full fat BA, DA and SW successors.


Why would they be wanting SW successors, though, when (as far as I recall) the only known successor prior to the setting being murdered at the close of 7th edition was the Wolf Brothers, which ended up getting purged.

The "Ultima Founding" seems to have created the "Wolfspears", but whether they remain stable being not of Fenris is anyone's guess.
Because Primaris exist. Wolfspears still use Leman Russes's geneseed (if you can still call it that after the Mary Sue Juice injection by Cawl).


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 13:54:29


Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl


 Type40 wrote:
In SW, currently, you take plasma cannon long fangs,,, not hellblasters...
In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take bloodclaws not generic primaris assault.
In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take grey hunters, not generic intercessors.

Only if you like old, outdated stuff. If you look at recent, up to date official fluff, then to play SW you play :
- Hellblasters, not old almost extinct units like long fangs.
- Intercessors, not old almost extinct units like Grey Hunters.
- Assault primaris, not basically already disappeared Blood Claws, I mean why turn recruits into inferior oldmarines when you could make them primaris

I mean, the Blood Claws are gone in the fluff, the very few Grey Hunter left will soon turn into Long Fangs, and the Long Fangs are dying of old age lol.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 14:15:53


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Type40 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Type40 wrote:I dont think you understand.

In SW, currently, you take plasma cannon long fangs,,, not hellblasters...
Why are Hellblasters in the current Space Wolves Codex then?
Because like I said GW wants people to buy Primaris, why wouldnt they be in the codex?
If GW wanted people to only buy Primaris, why leave in Long Fangs and Devastators then?

Your whole point seems to assume that Space Wolves don't ALREADY have Primaris Marines in their Codex, which they do, so I'm struggling to see where all this "if we get merged with the normies, we'll have to take Primaris!" rhetoric is coming from, because you already have Primaris,
In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take bloodclaws not generic primaris assault.
But Assault Primaris would be well integrated into the Space Wolves Chapter. Your idea of fluff is "pre-Primaris fluff, aka, what I say".
Yes, assault primaris are slightly bigger generic assault marines and generic assault marines fit into the SW playstyle,,,, not unique from other assault marines, but they do fit the playstyle
So why are they a problem? They're not invalidating Blood Claws.
In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take grey hunters, not generic intercessors.
Intercessors are also well adopted by the Space Wolves.
You're sounding awfully gate-keepy on what a "real" Space Wolves army is. If someone made an all-Primaris Space Wolves list, but leant strongly into aggressive play, enjoyed their lore, and the SW aesthetic, why aren't they a proper SW player, according to you?
Seriously, I am saying the opposite.
Doesn't sound like it. It's sounding a lot like "how dare GW add Primaris, REAL Space Wolves don't play Primaris!".
I want them to leave in the options.
So do I - the *real* options, at least.
I am not being gate-keepy by saying "leave in my unique units and let people choose to play the competitive primaris if they want to" GW is the one who is REMOVING options.
You have no idea if GW are removing anything though.

All you know so far is that the Codexes will be merged, and that SW will get unique units through their supplement. You don't know the shape of what that's going to be yet, so all this "WE'RE LOSING OPTIONS" is entirely baseless. If/when we find out that GW are removing those features, you have every right, but right now, you don't know squat.
The important part is to recognise that that both Firstborn and Primaris Marines are equally valid parts of a Space Wolves army, and as long as you get to pick the units *you* want for *your* army, that's what matters. And right now, there's no indication that Grey Hunters/Blood Claws/Long Fangs are leaving.
YES ,,, so dont remove the unique stuff about everything else.... and YES there is indication,,, they arnt going to make a supplement that replaces 30 + datasheet .... that just doest make sense
As people have suggested, there are plenty of ways to re-create the unique features of the SW units without needing to publish a whole new datasheet. Something as simple as "add <Grey Hunters> keyword to all <Space Wolves> Tactical Squads. Any <Grey Hunters> may take an additional chainsword, one <Grey Hunter> may take a Wolf Standard, etc etc".

There's no need to reprint what would be the majority of the book with slight changes. Don't forget - nearly all the vehicles are identical, all the Primaris units are the same, the lion's share of stratagems are the same, most HQs are largely the same.
(From a brief look over, I counted <20 unique units that weren't just HQs with a single extra rule tacked on - most of these units were things like Thunderwolves/character mounts, and things like Grey Hunters, Blood Claws, Long Fangs, etc - and 20 units isn't going to break the bank).
Type40 wrote:SW are as different to SM as CSM is to SM.
They're really not.

Unless you can point to Chaos Primaris equivalents, that is (and before you say Space Wolves don't have Primaris, their current Codex has more than enough)/

Like I said,, outside of Primaris CSM ARE just as similar to SM as SWs are to SM .
But that's the thing - you're having to ignore the presence of Primaris to say that.

And, even outside of that, there's still plenty of difference, most notably in the forms of much fewer vehicles and generic units with immediate comparisons (ie, Wolf Scouts and regular Scouts have easy parallels, but CSM have no equivalent), stratagems operating much differently, daemon engines having no comparisons, as well as completely new HQ options in CSM that no Marines have an equivalent for (Master of Possession, Master of Executions, Lord-Discordant, etc).

I am not ok with GW removing SW unique options so Primaris looks more appealing to certain kinds of players.
But you have no idea that's what GW are doing.

You're pretending like you know what their plans are, and basing arguments off of that, which makes any discussion pretty futile because you're working off of assumptions as facts.
Dont gatekeep me by telling me my book of 80% completely unique datasheets "isn't different enough to count as its own faction" if sans primaris it would be just as different as GK or CSM to SM .
Your book isn't 80% unique datasheets though. It's only CLOSE to that if you ignore Primaris - which you have every right to do, but that doesn't change that they're options you're wilfully ignoring.

If I turned around and said "Ultramarines are 100% unique datasheets, they should get their own Codex - oh, yeah, I'm ignoring all the generic units, I only play Tyrannic War Vets, Honour Guard and Victrix Guard", that's not a far argument, because I'm ignoring the units that don't fit *my* army. And it's fine to have units that don't fit your army! I don't play Repentia in my Sisters army, because I don't like Repentia. I don't play Conscripts in my Guard because I don't like Conscripts. I don't play with lots of Bikes or Impulsors or Land Speeders because I don't like those units. But just because *I* don't play with them doesn't mean they aren't work counting.

let me spell it out for you, because its clear you arn't getting it.
Right now GW wants everyone to buy Primaris and re-buy their entire army.
You're spelling out what is little more than conspiracy.
I'm sure GW does want people to buy Primaris. I'm sure they also wanted people to buy their new Chaos Marines and Sisters of Battle and any other army they produce. That's how companies work.

But they're not FORCING anyone to do it.
basically, removing customization/unique elements is gakky.
Agreed. But, in case you've missed my point - you have no idea if anything has or hasn't been removed, but are acting like it has, and that's what I've got an issue with.

You're acting like the sky's falling down, and NOTHING'S HAPPENED YET. Wait. If we later find out that suddenly, Grey Hunters are totally gone, no way of recreating them, squatted - then you have every right to complain about things being cut. But that hasn't happened yet.

Have I made myself clear?


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 14:37:49


Post by: Cornishman


 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
In SW, currently, you take plasma cannon long fangs,,, not hellblasters...
In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take bloodclaws not generic primaris assault.
In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take grey hunters, not generic intercessors.

Only if you like old, outdated stuff. If you look at recent, up to date official fluff, then to play SW you play :
- Hellblasters, not old almost extinct units like long fangs.
- Intercessors, not old almost extinct units like Grey Hunters.
- Assault primaris, not basically already disappeared Blood Claws, I mean why turn recruits into inferior oldmarines when you could make them primaris

I mean, the Blood Claws are gone in the fluff, the very few Grey Hunter left will soon turn into Long Fangs, and the Long Fangs are dying of old age lol.


How to Wolfyfy Primaris, now that Crawl's initial batch of Primaris are settled in so presumably the 'new' primaris are either oldborn crossing the rubicon or new recruits....

Take Assault Intercessors, Rename Primaris Blood Claws <tweek rules to taste>
Take Intercessors, rename Primaris Grey Hunters...
Take Hellblasters, rename to Longfang Hellblasters....

It'd be fantastic if there was an option to add a (Primaris) Wolfguard to Primaris SW units, - To me this is a key flavour of what makes SWs, SWs. Given GW's no model no rules policy that'd require some way of making an all GW suitable Primaris Wolfguard model.
Rulewise this'd be pretty simple, so the barrier would seem to be having a suitbale model/ upgrade' spure. Alas that could be a while off GW have spent 30 odd years defining Space Marines and are new redefining a 'new normal' for them, so not everything is going to be available at once, but I hope this optinos is available soon.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 14:39:21


Post by: Dysartes


Crimson wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:

Why would they be wanting SW successors, though, when (as far as I recall) the only known successor prior to the setting being murdered at the close of 7th edition was the Wolf Brothers, which ended up getting purged.

The "Ultima Founding" seems to have created the "Wolfspears", but whether they remain stable being not of Fenris is anyone's guess.

Space Wolves not having successors was always stupid and unnecessarily limiting part of the fluff and I'm glad it is gone. If people want to make SW successors they should be able to without neckbeards yelling at them about the fluff.


When you have 12 Great Companies to play with, each of which having a mix of units, do you really need to try to be special by being a successor?

And it's not stupid - it showed that not all geneseed is equally viable, which is a useful detail for the setting.

BaconCatBug wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
My best guess as to the "reasoning" is to standardise the stratagems available to all SM flavours, and to allow for full fat BA, DA and SW successors.


Why would they be wanting SW successors, though, when (as far as I recall) the only known successor prior to the setting being murdered at the close of 7th edition was the Wolf Brothers, which ended up getting purged.

The "Ultima Founding" seems to have created the "Wolfspears", but whether they remain stable being not of Fenris is anyone's guess.
Because Primaris exist. Wolfspears still use Leman Russes's geneseed (if you can still call it that after the Mary Sue Juice injection by Cawl).


I did note the "Ultima Founding" thing, BCB - but given that it's been noted that Cawl's tinkering hasn't suppressed the Canis Helix (and, in turn, the Curse of the Wulfen), we don't know whether the Wolfspears will remain viable in the long-term, or whether they'll suffer the same fate as the Wolf Brothers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Type40 wrote:
In SW, currently, you take plasma cannon long fangs,,, not hellblasters...
In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take bloodclaws not generic primaris assault.
In SW currently, if you like the fluff, you ll take grey hunters, not generic intercessors.

Only if you like old, outdated stuff. If you look at recent, up to date official fluff, then to play SW you play :
- Hellblasters, not old almost extinct units like long fangs.
- Intercessors, not old almost extinct units like Grey Hunters.
- Assault primaris, not basically already disappeared Blood Claws, I mean why turn recruits into inferior oldmarines when you could make them primaris

I mean, the Blood Claws are gone in the fluff, the very few Grey Hunter left will soon turn into Long Fangs, and the Long Fangs are dying of old age lol.


You seem to be taking far too much joy in units which have been staples of a faction for a good 20+ years potentially being killed off in favour of cookie cutter units with no character.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 14:43:50


Post by: Crimson


 Dysartes wrote:

When you have 12 Great Companies to play with, each of which having a mix of units, do you really need to try to be special by being a successor?

Yes, because the point of making a successor chapter is to come up with your own fluff and most importantly the colour scheme. You can't really do that with the Great Companies.

And it's not stupid - it showed that not all geneseed is equally viable, which is a useful detail for the setting.

You can do that by saying that the Space Wolf geneseed is unstable and temperamental and as a result there are very few SW successor chapters.

You seem to be taking far too much joy in units which have been staples of a faction for a good 20+ years potentially being killed off in favour of cookie cutter units with no character.

Character doesn't come from an extra special weapon. People have converted absolutely amazing and characterful Primaris Space Wolves. Intercessors are perfect Grey Hunters as with veteran stratagem and sergeant options you can make them pretty formidable in melee while retaining decent shooting. And of course with the new Assault Intercessors you can have Primaris Blood Claws too. People say that they care about the lore, but to me it seems that they care about inconsequential technical details instead.






Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 14:44:08


Post by: Pandabeer


I very much like it because it will allow GW to more equally distribute their attention between the various chapters instead of heavily favoring Ultramarines (let's be honest here, Codex: Space Marines was basically Codex: Ultramarines up to this point), Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Deathwatch. I say this as a Space Wolves player by the way.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 14:52:08


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Dysartes wrote:When you have 12 Great Companies to play with, each of which having a mix of units, do you really need to try to be special by being a successor?
Someone might want their own colour scheme, their own history, their own named heroes and features. For example, a Space Wolves successor that has a lot more in common with, say, Native American culture and aesthetic than Norse.

Sure, you might have 12 Great Companies, but what if you want to be descended from Russ, without being constrained by SW customs? In that same vein, why should anyone make their own Chapter, when you have 1000s to pick from?


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 14:57:37


Post by: Kanluwen


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Dysartes wrote:When you have 12 Great Companies to play with, each of which having a mix of units, do you really need to try to be special by being a successor?
Someone might want their own colour scheme, their own history, their own named heroes and features. For example, a Space Wolves successor that has a lot more in common with, say, Native American culture and aesthetic than Norse.

Sure, you might have 12 Great Companies, but what if you want to be descended from Russ, without being constrained by SW customs? In that same vein, why should anyone make their own Chapter, when you have 1000s to pick from?

Then it wouldn't be a Space Wolves Successor. They're shaped by their ties to Fenris.

What exactly would you get for a Native American culture and aesthetic for SW that you would not get from anyone else?


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 15:08:16


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 Kanluwen wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Dysartes wrote:When you have 12 Great Companies to play with, each of which having a mix of units, do you really need to try to be special by being a successor?
Someone might want their own colour scheme, their own history, their own named heroes and features. For example, a Space Wolves successor that has a lot more in common with, say, Native American culture and aesthetic than Norse.

Sure, you might have 12 Great Companies, but what if you want to be descended from Russ, without being constrained by SW customs? In that same vein, why should anyone make their own Chapter, when you have 1000s to pick from?

Then it wouldn't be a Space Wolves Successor. They're shaped by their ties to Fenris.
Just like how all Ultramarines successors are tied to Macragge, or how all Dark Angels successors are obsessed with the Fallen (Star Phantoms and Relictors say hi)?
Nonsense. Successor Chapters aren't always obsessed with their parents. Will there be a leaning towards that? Sure, but it's not a requirement.

What exactly would you get for a Native American culture and aesthetic for SW that you would not get from anyone else?
You could lean into the more agrarian aspects. Wolves are/were important in Native American culture, with lots of stories and myths surrounding. So, purely on that base "wolf wolf wolf" aspect, they'd be an excellent fit.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 15:13:48


Post by: BaconCatBug


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Just like how all Ultramarines successors are tied to Macragge, or how all Dark Angels successors are obsessed with the Fallen (Star Phantoms and Relictors say hi)?
Nonsense. Successor Chapters aren't always obsessed with their parents. Will there be a leaning towards that? Sure, but it's not a requirement.
Way to miss the entire point. The whole point is that SW are uniquely tied to Fenris whereas other successors are not. Ultramarines are stable, by the book, Courage and Honour Warrior monks. SW are barbarian, animalistic vikings


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 15:16:51


Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl


Cornishman wrote:
How to Wolfyfy Primaris, now that Crawl's initial batch of Primaris are settled in so presumably the 'new' primaris are either oldborn crossing the rubicon or new recruits....

Take Assault Intercessors, Rename Primaris Blood Claws <tweek rules to taste>
Take Intercessors, rename Primaris Grey Hunters...
Take Hellblasters, rename to Longfang Hellblasters....

No need to tweak the rules. Just rename and it's sufficient.

 Dysartes wrote:
You seem to be taking far too much joy in units which have been staples of a faction for a good 20+ years potentially being killed off in favour of cookie cutter units with no character.

What joy? I can tell you I am quite unhappy with the amount of resources dedicated to the release of the "cookie cutter units with no character".


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 15:24:01


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Just like how all Ultramarines successors are tied to Macragge, or how all Dark Angels successors are obsessed with the Fallen (Star Phantoms and Relictors say hi)?
Nonsense. Successor Chapters aren't always obsessed with their parents. Will there be a leaning towards that? Sure, but it's not a requirement.
Way to miss the entire point. The whole point is that SW are uniquely tied to Fenris whereas other successors are not.
The SW can be uniquely tied to Fenris. Their successors don't have to be.

Let's put it another way - Space Wolves geneseed is capable of existing outside of Fenris, due to the initial Terran Legionnaires. It's not unbelievable that Cawl might have used some of the pure strain original geneseed (which there are versions of, for EVERY Legion, not just the loyalists), and some of that may have been used for a SW successor, who operate a lot less centrally to their Fenrisian brethren.

Plus, the Wolfspear aren't related to Fenris - more reasons that SW successors don't need Fenrisian support.
Ultramarines are stable, by the book, Courage and Honour Warrior monks. SW are barbarian, animalistic vikings
The BA geneseed isn't exactly stable either, yet have far more autonomy.

I think you're totally missing my comment: the Ultramarines might be Courage and Honour monks, but not all their successors are. The Space Wolves might be barbarian vikings, but their successors don't have to be. No-one's trying to change the SW: only that they can have successors who have room to be different. Plus, the whole barbarian and viking parts are less geneseed and more cultural upbringing, in the same way you have Ultramarines successors who are death worshippers (Mortifactors) or hyper-religious Imperial Creed fanatics who don't venerate Guilliman (Fire Angels) or even Celtic/Gaelic inspired 'barbarians' (Emperor's Spears).


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 15:25:39


Post by: Kanluwen


Then there's nothing preventing you from doing counts-as Successors.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 15:30:24


Post by: Karol


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The SW can be uniquely tied to Fenris. Their successors don't have to be.

Let's put it another way - Space Wolves geneseed is capable of existing outside of Fenris, due to the initial Terran Legionnaires. It's not unbelievable that Cawl might have used some of the pure strain original geneseed (which there are versions of, for EVERY Legion, not just the loyalists), and some of that may have been used for a SW successor, who operate a lot less centrally to their Fenrisian brethren.

Plus, the Wolfspear aren't related to Fenris - more reasons that SW successors don't need Fenrisian support.


How what that even work, if the SW supposed succesors had different gene seed from the one SW have, then they are not SW succesors, but some other chapter. If they used pre Russ on Fenris gene seed, then they would be Wolfs of Space succesors, and that legion had as much to do with Space Wolfes as Blood Angels had, before they were joined by Sanguinius.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 15:30:26


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 Kanluwen wrote:
Then there's nothing preventing you from doing counts-as Successors.
Sure - let's scrap all successors from every Chapter except... I don't know, the White Scars, and if you actually really wanted that heritage from someone else, well, tough luck, screw you, I guess?

That's absurd. Space Wolves not having successors has been (in my opinion) a terrible standpoint on the front of limiting player freedom, and I fully welcome it. It opens the floodgates for so much more creativity and encourages player freedom.


Space Marines being rolled into one book @ 2020/07/27 15:33:20


Post by: Karol


What kind of a freedom is that, if it goes against all the lore and how the setting functions. May as well start doing other weird stuff with marine lore and explain it with, Cawl did it.
Deus ex Machina is only good for comedies and greek tragedies, not for modern lore writing.

Non fenrisian SW makes as much sense as Primaris BA successors without the black rage and visions of death.