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So, with the new Space Marine Codex on the horizon (bit too soon for my tastes), with all new merging all power armoured Imperial Space Marines into one book, with unique traits being represented via supplements, it seems.

Worst thing to happen to your faction? Exactly what you wanted? Discuss!

I think it's a positive change. This is because I don't think/don't know whether they're going to do a whole new wave of supplements: so the core book contains all the updated points, rules, and mechanics, then the old supplements and books contain all the unchanged stratagems/unique things.

This is complete bullcrap.
Be ready for the disappearance of many specific units.

I'm not really astonished that Smudge made a topic as soon as the news came down.

WhiteDog wrote:
This is complete bullcrap.
Be ready for the disappearance of many specific units.

I'm not really astonished that Smudge made a topic as soon as the news came down.

Why would they get rid of specific units? Just because they (DA/BA/SW) don't have their own dex doesn't mean they won't get they're own units still.

You're going to have supplements with wildly varying unique unit counts, but beyond that I'm not against the concept.

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
This is complete bullcrap.
Be ready for the disappearance of many specific units.

I'm not really astonished that Smudge made a topic as soon as the news came down.

Why would they get rid of specific units? Just because they (DA/BA/SW) don't have their own dex doesn't mean they won't get they're own units still.

Because many units from the SM codex have the same exact field role as the DA/SW/BA specific units. What's the point of Dark Talon / Nephilim if you have the stormhawk interceptor and the other one ?
There's no point at all.

You pay more than before (a codex + a supplement) to effectively get less and lose your orignality.

McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:I think it's a positive change. This is because I don't think/don't know whether they're going to do a whole new wave of supplements: so the core book contains all the updated points, rules, and mechanics, then the old supplements and books contain all the unchanged stratagems/unique things.

Not looking forward to the inevitable wave of all the old supplements being re-released (unless that somehow doesn't happen?), but everything getting brought to line with the same mechanics, and not having to worry about one flavour of Marines getting bonuses and others needing a quick band-aid fix are good IMO.

WhiteDog wrote:This is complete bullcrap.
Be ready for the disappearance of many specific units.

Let's wait and see, shall we? Supplements are more than capable of adding many unique units, replacing datasheets, etc etc. Shifting to this style doesn't mean any units are guaranteed to disappear.

I'm not really astonished that Smudge made a topic as soon as the news came down.

And I'm not astonished that you felt the need to point that out. So, with that out of the way, drop it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You're going to have supplements with wildly varying unique unit counts, but beyond that I'm not against the concept.

Don't we already have that? Ultramarines have TONS of unique datasheets in their supplements, Iron Hands have... one?

This is something people have been asking for a very long time, and I think it's a positive change.

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
This is complete bullcrap.
Be ready for the disappearance of many specific units.

I'm not really astonished that Smudge made a topic as soon as the news came down.

Why would they get rid of specific units? Just because they (DA/BA/SW) don't have their own dex doesn't mean they won't get they're own units still.

It's a worry because, as some on this forum will say, things like Deathwing terminators should just be normal terminators. So remove the Deathwing Terminators entry and give them an extra keyword.
Removes the unique DA terminators they've had for years but also doesn't, and dilutes the non-purely Codex style chapters like the DA/BA/Wolves into just being Codex chapter but different colours. Oh and narratively your special units will be worse than the Ultramarines, even with 20+ years of story against that.

It may be a knee-jerk reaction of 'but there's no proof we'll get to keep our cool stuff because we're just being folded into the Ultramarine book', but it's one I expect people to have at least until news about the DA supplement (using them as an example here) comes out and details on and what is and is not allowed from the core codex hit the light of day.

WhiteDog wrote:

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
This is complete bullcrap.
Be ready for the disappearance of many specific units.

I'm not really astonished that Smudge made a topic as soon as the news came down.

Why would they get rid of specific units? Just because they (DA/BA/SW) don't have their own dex doesn't mean they won't get they're own units still.

Because many units from the SM codex have the same exact field role as the DA/SW/BA specific units. What's the point of Dark Talon / Nephilim if you have the stormhawk interceptor and the other one ?

By that same token, why have the Stormhawk when you have the Stormtalon? Why have the Stalker when you have the Hunter?

What may well happen is DA being told in their supplement that they can't take the Stormhawks, or maybe they'll just get access to both, and players can pick and choose. Redundancy won't be enforced.

The funny part is that Deathwing Terminators had to actually be given something unique(the Plasma Cannon option) to really be super different.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
This is complete bullcrap.
Be ready for the disappearance of many specific units.

I'm not really astonished that Smudge made a topic as soon as the news came down.

Why would they get rid of specific units? Just because they (DA/BA/SW) don't have their own dex doesn't mean they won't get they're own units still.

Because many units from the SM codex have the same exact field role as the DA/SW/BA specific units. What's the point of Dark Talon / Nephilim if you have the stormhawk interceptor and the other one ?

By that same token, why have the Stormhawk when you have the Stormtalon? Why have the Stalker when you have the Hunter?

What may well happen is DA being told in their supplement that they can't take the Stormhawks, or maybe they'll just get access to both, and players can pick and choose. Redundancy won't be enforced.

Stormhawk and stormtalon don't have the same field role - one is primarily an anti-air gunship, the INTERCEPTOR, exactly like the nephilim, and the other is more flexible. The hunter and the stalker don't have the same role either : one is heavy anti air, the other is a light anti air that has a higher rate of fire.
By the way, most armies have the same kind of 2 or 3 aerial units with distinct roles : one anti air, one bomber, one transport more or less.

Finally! This is great. Its what the should have done last time.

The PA debacle won't happen again, book after book of 'updated' datasheets that just changed one of the keywords.

No special snowflake units will be lost- they'll be in the relevant supplement.

 BroodSpawn wrote:
It's a worry because, as some on this forum will say, things like Deathwing terminators should just be normal terminators. So remove the Deathwing Terminators entry and give them an extra keyword.

What's the mechanical difference between them that can't be presented through native keyword additions?

Removes the unique DA terminators they've had for years but also doesn't, and dilutes the non-purely Codex style chapters like the DA/BA/Wolves into just being Codex chapter but different colours. Oh and narratively your special units will be worse than the Ultramarines, even with 20+ years of story against that.

But where's the indication that the truly unique Terminators (Knights, for example) will be removed?

It may be a knee-jerk reaction of 'but there's no proof we'll get to keep our cool stuff because we're just being folded into the Ultramarine book', but it's one I expect people to have at least until news about the DA supplement (using them as an example here) comes out and details on and what is and is not allowed from the core codex hit the light of day.

Yeah - before claiming that XYZ are going to be removed, perhaps it's best to wait until we see how GW are handling it.

WhiteDog wrote:
What's the point of Dark Talon / Nephilim if you have the stormhawk interceptor and the other one ?
There's no point at all.

I doubt they're about to drop things that have actual kits, like the Dark Talon, or Sanguinary Guard, or Wolf Guard Terminator, and so on.

WhiteDog wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:
This is complete bullcrap.
Be ready for the disappearance of many specific units.

I'm not really astonished that Smudge made a topic as soon as the news came down.

Why would they get rid of specific units? Just because they (DA/BA/SW) don't have their own dex doesn't mean they won't get they're own units still.

Because many units from the SM codex have the same exact field role as the DA/SW/BA specific units. What's the point of Dark Talon / Nephilim if you have the stormhawk interceptor and the other one ?

By that same token, why have the Stormhawk when you have the Stormtalon? Why have the Stalker when you have the Hunter?

What may well happen is DA being told in their supplement that they can't take the Stormhawks, or maybe they'll just get access to both, and players can pick and choose. Redundancy won't be enforced.

Stormhawk and stormtalon don't have the same field role.

Dark Talon and Nephilim have even less in common with the Storm- family though. If those units can be distinct, then the DA vehicles will be as well.

Also, look at it the other way - why on earth would GW jettison their DA vehicles and the molds for them? It's easier to keep them around.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Don't we already have that? Ultramarines have TONS of unique datasheets in their supplements, Iron Hands have... one?

They have a ton of special characters. There's a difference.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The funny part is that Deathwing Terminators had to actually be given something unique(the Plasma Cannon option) to really be super different.

So we're just ignoring mixing shooty and assault loadouts in a unit and putting Cyclones on assaulty Termies?

OK then.

Smudge, I'm not arguing with you again (in the 3rd topic I think at this point) about removing units from things like the DA so they can just be like everyone else's Terminators even when they've had mechanical and model kit differences for over 20yrs. I am not interested in going around that circle again thank you.

You'll notice I was replying to someone asking why there would be a worry. I even said it's probably a knee-jerk reaction based on limited/no information. You can disagree, fine, but the point was 'this is why someone will be worried' and you coming along and saying 'yeah, those things shouldn't be different anyway so could be removed/folded together' kind of proves my point with that.

This is an excellent change and long overdue.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
The funny part is that Deathwing Terminators had to actually be given something unique(the Plasma Cannon option) to really be super different.

So we're just ignoring mixing shooty and assault loadouts in a unit and putting Cyclones on assaulty Termies?

OK then.

Fair play...but can't Wolf Guard Terminators do that too?

Truthfully, whenever I think of DA Terminators the truly unique ones are the Deathwing Knights not the 'standard' Terminators. The only thing that always jumped out at me with the standard Terminators was the Plasma Cannon.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
The funny part is that Deathwing Terminators had to actually be given something unique(the Plasma Cannon option) to really be super different.

So we're just ignoring mixing shooty and assault loadouts in a unit and putting Cyclones on assaulty Termies?

OK then.

Fair...but can't Wolf Guard Terminators do that too?

Yeah, but what can't the Furry Stus do?

 Crimson wrote:
This is an excellent change and long overdue.

It at least should fix the issue of a new mechanic for core space marines coming out and then all the unique factions of space marines BA/DA/SW then needing to separately be adjusted to the new way GW wants all marines to work. I think the supplements for the different factions offf of the main SM rule book is a good idea.

H.B.M.C. wrote:So we're just ignoring mixing shooty and assault loadouts in a unit and putting Cyclones on assaulty Termies?

OK then.

That's something that normal Chapters have been able to do in lore, but hasn't been transferred into game. Space Hulk features mixed armament Terminators just fine, and Cataphractii and Tartaros Terminators are capable of mixing weapons. There's no reason normal Terminators shouldn't be able to as well.

It's really not that much of a unique feature.

WhiteDog wrote:It's tiresome to discuss with someone that never think.

You're right, it is.

Kanluwen wrote:Truthfully, whenever I think of DA Terminators the truly unique ones are the Deathwing Knights not the 'standard' Terminators. The only thing that always jumped out at me with the standard Terminators was the Plasma Cannon.

Agreed - Deathwing Knights are definitely a unique unit, deserving of a completely bespoke entry. Regular Deathwing Terminators could get by with a keyword that provides them extra rules, much like how White Scars Bikers got one.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Don't we already have that? Ultramarines have TONS of unique datasheets in their supplements, Iron Hands have... one?

They have a ton of special characters. There's a difference.

Ultramarines also have several unique 'generic' units that aren't just named characters - Victrix Guard, Honour Guard, Terminus Ultra, etc etc.

 Platuan4th wrote:
So we're just ignoring mixing shooty and assault loadouts in a unit and putting Cyclones on assaulty Termies?

Seems we are. Never mind the fact that Terminators have had their weapon options split in two since the 3rd Ed Marine Codex. Now Deathwing are basically just the same as regular Terminators.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Ultramarines also have several unique 'generic' units that aren't just named characters - Victrix Guard, Honour Guard, Terminus Ultra, etc etc.

But not as many as the Wolves do. Not even as many as the Blood Angels or Dark Angels do, and they're basically Codex chapters.

EDIT: Please remember rule #1

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
So we're just ignoring mixing shooty and assault loadouts in a unit and putting Cyclones on assaulty Termies?

Seems we are. Never mind the fact that Terminators have had their weapon options split in two since the 3rd Ed Marine Codex. Now Deathwing are basically just the same as regular Terminators.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Ultramarines also have several unique 'generic' units that aren't just named characters - Victrix Guard, Honour Guard, Terminus Ultra, etc etc.

But not as many as the Wolves do. Not even as many as the Blood Angels or Dark Angels do, and they're basically Codex chapters.

Terminator are old marines anyway, they will disappear at one point or another. The bladeguards have more wounds, a better invul, the same 2+ and one more attack. The only thing they lack is the loadout flexibility.
I'm a DA player, I think it suck. But that's how it is.

Voss wrote:
Finally! This is great. Its what the should have done last time.

The PA debacle won't happen again, book after book of 'updated' datasheets that just changed one of the keywords.

No special snowflake units will be lost- they'll be in the relevant supplement.

Yeah, just think of all the pages in those books that could have been used for new rules for the other factions in them. And hopefully they'll release the supplements at the same time as the codex so they can just get on with it and finally give some attention to other factions besides loyalists.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But not as many as the Wolves do. Not even as many as the Blood Angels or Dark Angels do, and they're basically Codex chapters.

I'm not sure why you're caught up on 'not as many'. They can still put the extra datasheets in a supplement. Most of the current ones are embarrassingly empty and short.
GW LOVES selling unique marine kits and variants. They aren't going to go away because the book format changes slightly.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Yeah, just think of all the pages in those books that could have been used for new rules for the other factions in them. And hopefully they'll release the supplements at the same time as the codex so they can just get on with it and finally give some attention to other factions besides loyalists.

Well... I'm not as optimistic about 'the same time.' I expect a weekend each, at least, probably a little more. Supplement and a new primarized special character and/or lieutenant.
Hopefully by the new year loyalists can be done and we can have a xenos year, or something.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
So we're just ignoring mixing shooty and assault loadouts in a unit and putting Cyclones on assaulty Termies?

Seems we are. Never mind the fact that Terminators have had their weapon options split in two since the 3rd Ed Marine Codex. Now Deathwing are basically just the same as regular Terminators.

Never mind the fact that Cataphractii and Tartaros can mix weapons. Do we need an Assault Cataphractii unit now?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Ultramarines also have several unique 'generic' units that aren't just named characters - Victrix Guard, Honour Guard, Terminus Ultra, etc etc.

But not as many as the Wolves do. Not even as many as the Blood Angels or Dark Angels do, and they're basically Codex chapters.

Ultramarines are closer in unique unit size to those Chapters - so, under that logic, should Ultramarines get a unique Codex instead of a supplement?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

WhiteDog wrote:You've been going at it for month with no shame.

I've really not. You make it sound like that's the only thing I post about, which a cursory look on my profile would disprove.

Let it go.

Everything you argue is dumb, based on a shakky understanding of the topic you are talking about.

Yeah, seriously, Let it go. Rule 1 is a thing here.

You need to focus and think before posting.

No, I think that's something you ought to do. You're being incredibly aggressive and tactless here. Take a breath, step away, and come back later when you're not just attacking me.

Voss wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But not as many as the Wolves do. Not even as many as the Blood Angels or Dark Angels do, and they're basically Codex chapters.

I'm not sure why you're caught up on 'not as many'. They can still put the extra datasheets in a supplement. Most of the current ones are embarrassingly empty and short.

Yeah, there's no reason not to have a tanky thick supplement.

I really dislike the idea but at this stage GW have ****ed things up so much it's probably for the best.